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As big dog Gromit quits Wallace is who Tory members want to replace him – politicalbetting.com

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  • ApplicantApplicant Posts: 3,379

    Applicant said:

    Applicant said:

    Applicant said:

    Tory MPs queueing up to deliver the eulogies after stabbing him in the back... The chutzpah is incredible.

    Someone here yesterday came up with the perfect epitaph for Boris:

    Got the big calls right, treated the small calls with utter contempt.
    Got the biggest call (Brexit) wrong. Treated the voters with utter contempt.
    Implementing the biggest democratic vote in British history is treating the voters with utter contempt? OK then...
    Lied to them to win the Brexit vote. Lied to them in 2019 about his deal. Lied to them about levelling up. Lied to them about 40 new hospitals. Lied in the house of commons. Lied to the cabinet. Yeah, he's treated the voters, actually our entire democratic system, with contempt. Good riddance.
    You said "Got the biggest call (Brexit) wrong". But it's the alternative to this (ignoring the vote and remaining in the EU anyway as advocated by SKS) is what would have been treating the voters with contempt.

    Boris's negatives far outweigh his positives - but he did have positives.
    Johnson's lies duringwinning the Brexit campaign was what put us in the dire position of either inflicting a costly policy error on the economy or damaging trust in our democracy. There was no good outcome from there, but it was Johnson who put us there. We should have implemented a soft Brexit but that was blocked by May's red lines and the Tories whipping against those options in the Commons. And Johnson doesn't even believe in Brexit, the whole thing is simply a testimony to his infinite vanity and ambition.
    FTFY. And again, it's not just that Leave won, but that Cameron had refused to allow planning for what a Leave vote would mean.

    This just looks like an attempt to evade responsibility, like we saw with some lefties last night. If you put Corbyn up against Boris, you have to take some of the blame for the public seeing the latter as the lesser of two evils. Similarly, if you spent 25 years stopping the public having any say on the European Project beginning with Maastricht, leaving only the nuclear button available to the public, you can't blame them for pushing it.
    I criticised Labour for choosing Corbyn as leader on here yesterday and repeatedly in the past. It was a disastrously stupid thing to do. I voted against him as leader twice.
    We gave the public every opportunity to vote against what you call the European Project, in the usual way of a parliamentary democracy.
    When the only two possible leaders of government agreed on it? Risible. That's exactly when you have to split it out and let people vote on the issue independent of who forms a government.
  • MISTY said:

    rcs1000 said:

    MISTY said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Some pretty quick to dance on Boris’ grave.

    But key questions for the next Tory leader now are:

    🔥 Do they stick with ripping up NI protocol
    🔥 Do they carry on the Rwanda plan
    🔥 Do they continue with the party’s realignment & embrace of the Red Wall / levelling up? https://twitter.com/michelbarnier/status/1545015642176233472

    Far more important than any of that is,,,,,,,,do they continue to embrace the hard target of net zero by 2050 at all costs?

    Do you really think people would give a t*ss about Chris effing Pincher if they weren't getting poorer by the month,, the forecasts were for them to get even poorer, and there was no prospect of a recovery?

    So, your solution to higher energy bills caused by imports of fossil fuels is for us to use more fossil fuels in the future?

    It's certainly a unique take.
    You seem to be ignoring the green levies (Up to 15% of bills?) that Britons pay for renewables that we hear on here are as cheap as chips.

    If Johnson had scrapped those subsidies, or even reduced them. he would still be PM now.
    The green levies are a drop in the ocean that are about 8% of bills now and that percentage has been falling rapidly. If he had scrapped them, it would barely have been noticed.

    And those levies aren't all to fund renewables either. A significant chunk of that fund goes to contribute towards paying for the bills of those who would struggle to pay for them otherwise, a form of welfare in other words.
  • SirNorfolkPassmoreSirNorfolkPassmore Posts: 7,142
    edited July 2022
    Applicant said:

    Cookie said:

    So now it seems at least more likely than not that he'll go, we have to replace him, in no particular order:
    Wallace, Tugendhat, Truss, Sunak, Javid, Hunt, Mordaunt, Braverman, Zahawi, Harper... I'm sure I've missed a least one or two.

    But either way, there are at least five, possibly six there that I would find preferable to any of the candidates in 2019 or 2016, and another two or three that I would find preferable to most of those candidates.
    And meanwhile, SKS is (to me) preferable to any of his last three predecessors, and most of the realistic candidates to replace him (Rayner excepted) are also preferable (to me). And the Lib Dems are led by a grown-up too.
    There is reason to be not totally despondent for the future of politics in this country.

    Wiki currently has:

    Declared: Braverman
    Publicly expressed interest: Baker, Tugendhat, Berry
    Possible: Ellwood, Harper, Hunt, Javid, McVey, Mordaunt, Patel, Raab, Sunak, Truss, Wallace, Zahawi
    Declined: Hancock
    "Declined" rather suggests someone wanted him to do it, which appears doubtful.

    If they count Hancock, they need to add Sir Norfolk Passmore, as I've "declined" to throw my hat in the ring.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,507
    The last few days on PB have been like a perpetual general election night on speed, i'm off for a cigarette.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,038

    rcs1000 said:

    MISTY said:

    Applicant said:

    Applicant said:

    Tory MPs queueing up to deliver the eulogies after stabbing him in the back... The chutzpah is incredible.

    Someone here yesterday came up with the perfect epitaph for Boris:

    Got the big calls right, treated the small calls with utter contempt.
    Got the biggest call (Brexit) wrong. Treated the voters with utter contempt.
    Implementing the biggest democratic vote in British history is treating the voters with utter contempt? OK then...
    Lied to them to win the Brexit vote. Lied to them in 2019 about his deal. Lied to them about levelling up. Lied to them about 40 new hospitals. Lied in the house of commons. Lied to the cabinet. Yeah, he's treated the voters, actually our entire democratic system, with contempt. Good riddance.
    You said "Got the biggest call (Brexit) wrong". But it's the alternative to this (ignoring the vote and remaining in the EU anyway as advocated by SKS) is what would have been treating the voters with contempt.

    Boris's negatives far outweigh his positives - but he did have positives.
    Look at Europe. Look at the dreadful f8icking state it is in. Betting the bank on Russian gas. At war with its farmers. Double digit inflation in some areas. Central bank able to do nothing for fear of screwing the weaker states.

    Why anyone wants to rejoin that, I will absolutely never know.
    Pretty much every country has inflation in the 5-12% range right now, with the exception of Russia (17%), Switzerland (3%) and Japan (3%) - https://tradingeconomics.com/country-list/inflation-rate

    The Eurozone and the US are both at 8.6%, while the UK is at 9.1%.

    Why?

    Because the cost of oil, gas and grain has gone through the roof.
    How come Switzerland isn't suffering the same inflationary pressures as the rest of europe?
    That's easy:

    (1) Hydropower is two thirds of their energy generation, so there's no cost pressure there.
    (2) Food is already incredibly expensive because it is probably the most protected agricultural market in the world, so no pressure from rising grain prices
    (3) The Swiss are so rich, that very little of their income goes on commodities. If you look at the basket of goods used to calculate inflation, petrol is less than half what it is in the UK
  • MISTYMISTY Posts: 1,594

    MISTY said:

    rcs1000 said:

    MISTY said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Some pretty quick to dance on Boris’ grave.

    But key questions for the next Tory leader now are:

    🔥 Do they stick with ripping up NI protocol
    🔥 Do they carry on the Rwanda plan
    🔥 Do they continue with the party’s realignment & embrace of the Red Wall / levelling up? https://twitter.com/michelbarnier/status/1545015642176233472

    Far more important than any of that is,,,,,,,,do they continue to embrace the hard target of net zero by 2050 at all costs?

    Do you really think people would give a t*ss about Chris effing Pincher if they weren't getting poorer by the month,, the forecasts were for them to get even poorer, and there was no prospect of a recovery?

    So, your solution to higher energy bills caused by imports of fossil fuels is for us to use more fossil fuels in the future?

    It's certainly a unique take.
    You seem to be ignoring the green levies (Up to 15% of bills?) that Britons pay for renewables that we hear on here are as cheap as chips.

    If Johnson had scrapped those subsidies, or even reduced them. he would still be PM now.
    The green levies are a drop in the ocean that are about 8% of bills now and that percentage has been falling rapidly. If he had scrapped them, it would barely have been noticed.

    And those levies aren't all to fund renewables either. A significant chunk of that fund goes to contribute towards paying for the bills of those who would struggle to pay for them otherwise, a form of welfare in other words.
    The point remains.

    If renewables are so cheap, then why do we have to subsidise them? Isn't Lord Deben rich enough?
  • Applicant said:

    Applicant said:

    Applicant said:

    Tory MPs queueing up to deliver the eulogies after stabbing him in the back... The chutzpah is incredible.

    Someone here yesterday came up with the perfect epitaph for Boris:

    Got the big calls right, treated the small calls with utter contempt.
    Got the biggest call (Brexit) wrong. Treated the voters with utter contempt.
    Implementing the biggest democratic vote in British history is treating the voters with utter contempt? OK then...
    Lied to them to win the Brexit vote. Lied to them in 2019 about his deal. Lied to them about levelling up. Lied to them about 40 new hospitals. Lied in the house of commons. Lied to the cabinet. Yeah, he's treated the voters, actually our entire democratic system, with contempt. Good riddance.
    You said "Got the biggest call (Brexit) wrong". But it's the alternative to this (ignoring the vote and remaining in the EU anyway as advocated by SKS) is what would have been treating the voters with contempt.

    Boris's negatives far outweigh his positives - but he did have positives.
    Johnson's lies duringwinning the Brexit campaign was what put us in the dire position of either inflicting a costly policy error on the economy or damaging trust in our democracy. There was no good outcome from there, but it was Johnson who put us there. We should have implemented a soft Brexit but that was blocked by May's red lines and the Tories whipping against those options in the Commons. And Johnson doesn't even believe in Brexit, the whole thing is simply a testimony to his infinite vanity and ambition.
    FTFY. And again, it's not just that Leave won, but that Cameron had refused to allow planning for what a Leave vote would mean.

    This just looks like an attempt to evade responsibility, like we saw with some lefties last night. If you put Corbyn up against Boris, you have to take some of the blame for the public seeing the latter as the lesser of two evils. Similarly, if you spent 25 years stopping the public having any say on the European Project beginning with Maastricht, leaving only the nuclear button available to the public, you can't blame them for pushing it.
    I criticised Labour for choosing Corbyn as leader on here yesterday and repeatedly in the past. It was a disastrously stupid thing to do. I voted against him as leader twice.
    We gave the public every opportunity to vote against what you call the European Project, in the usual way of a parliamentary democracy. What was UKIP's top vote share in a Westminster election? Referenda are a poor way of doing politics, they attract every kind of protest vote and dishonest campaigning hence you end up with a vote for a Brexit that meant different things to different people, that nobody could implement in the way it was sold, which has made us all poorer, and which the public no longer support.
    It has been a total disaster, leaving us divided and weak. And Boris Johnson was the one who got it over the line. So no, I don't believe he got the big calls right.
    When were the public given an opportunity to vote against the European Project?

    Do you mean 2010 when the Lib Dems were elected on a manifesto promising a referendum, which they then opposed holding.

    Do you mean 2005 when the Lib Dems, Labour and Conservatives were all elected on a manifesto promising a referendum, which Labour then refused to hold?

    2015 was the third General Election in a row where MPs were elected on a promise to hold a referendum. It wasn't some novel idea invented by Cameron.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,492
    You could argue Johnson was brought down by Owen Paterson, Christopher Pincher, Neil Parish, Imran Ahmad Khan.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,038

    rcs1000 said:

    MISTY said:

    Applicant said:

    Applicant said:

    Tory MPs queueing up to deliver the eulogies after stabbing him in the back... The chutzpah is incredible.

    Someone here yesterday came up with the perfect epitaph for Boris:

    Got the big calls right, treated the small calls with utter contempt.
    Got the biggest call (Brexit) wrong. Treated the voters with utter contempt.
    Implementing the biggest democratic vote in British history is treating the voters with utter contempt? OK then...
    Lied to them to win the Brexit vote. Lied to them in 2019 about his deal. Lied to them about levelling up. Lied to them about 40 new hospitals. Lied in the house of commons. Lied to the cabinet. Yeah, he's treated the voters, actually our entire democratic system, with contempt. Good riddance.
    You said "Got the biggest call (Brexit) wrong". But it's the alternative to this (ignoring the vote and remaining in the EU anyway as advocated by SKS) is what would have been treating the voters with contempt.

    Boris's negatives far outweigh his positives - but he did have positives.
    Look at Europe. Look at the dreadful f8icking state it is in. Betting the bank on Russian gas. At war with its farmers. Double digit inflation in some areas. Central bank able to do nothing for fear of screwing the weaker states.

    Why anyone wants to rejoin that, I will absolutely never know.
    Pretty much every country has inflation in the 5-12% range right now, with the exception of Russia (17%), Switzerland (3%) and Japan (3%) - https://tradingeconomics.com/country-list/inflation-rate

    The Eurozone and the US are both at 8.6%, while the UK is at 9.1%.

    Why?

    Because the cost of oil, gas and grain has gone through the roof.
    How come Switzerland isn't suffering the same inflationary pressures as the rest of europe?
    Like Japan, they had been regularly suffering from deflation, so inflation is up even there.
    It is worth noting that the Japanese inflation rate is also low because they've been buying cut price Russian LNG cargoes that the West is rejecting.
  • Jim_MillerJim_Miller Posts: 2,996
    Congratulations to Britain, and especially to the Conservative politicians who took this difficult, but necessary, step. (I understand of course that there is much clean up to be done -- but that couldn't really start until you knew you would soon have a new leader.)

    And there is much that needs intelligent attention, as this story reminds us: 'Speaking alongside his British counterpart in London on Wednesday, FBI Director Christopher Wray called China the "biggest long-term threat" to both the U.S. and the U.K.

    "The Chinese government is set on stealing your technology -- whatever it is that makes your industry tick -- and using it to undercut your business and dominate your market," Wray said while giving remarks to international business leaders. "And they're set on using every tool at their disposal to do it."'
    source: https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/fbi-director-calls-china-biggest-us-threat-details-attempts-to-undercut-economy/ar-AAZhVb0?ocid=msedgdhp&pc=U531&cvid=b790bbd48d5c4073da6b28e6bb774dd9

    (How are we doing on getting rid of our bad boy? I think we are making progress, bit by bit, legal action by legal action. For example: https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/other/trump-appraiser-fined-10-000-a-day-for-not-producing-documents/ar-AAZf8uO?ocid=msedgdhp&pc=U531&cvid=60a4203f47f3483d8a1e3b5a3b4dc66c

    I have been saying for months that following Trump risks your wealth, your health, and even your personal freedom in extreme cases. I think taht, however slowly, more and more people are coming to agree with me.)
  • eekeek Posts: 28,288
    edited July 2022
    Applicant said:

    MISTY said:

    Taz said:

    MISTY said:

    Taz said:

    Tory MPs queueing up to deliver the eulogies after stabbing him in the back... The chutzpah is incredible.

    Someone here yesterday came up with the perfect epitaph for Boris:

    Got the big calls right, treated the small calls with utter contempt.
    Got the biggest call (Brexit) wrong. Treated the voters with utter contempt.
    Cameron got that call wrong. The vote should never have happened.
    If the vote had not happened, the tory party would no longer exist.
    It would, it may have fractured, but it would still be there however Cameron enabled all of this for interns also Tory party discipline.
    YO seem to have completely forgotten that there was a European election in which Farage won and the tories were hammered. If that wasn't a threat from the electorate, I don't know what is.

    The person Johnson forgot to thank today was Farage, who stood down his troops in many constituencies so the tories could win big. I imagine Farage bitterly regrets that, and in case any tories get any ideas, it is something he would never do again.
    Nah. Farage stood against the Tories in seats they needed to gain.
    +1 - If Farage hadn't stood in seats with Labour MPs it's highly likely Bozo would have had a majority of 120-140 rather than 80.

    Hartlepool is an obvious example of that but Doncaster and even Sunderland are other places where Farage cost the Tories a win.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,485

    Still think it is darkly amusing and ironic that it was somebody's else sexual misconduct that brought down Boris Johnson.

    What brought down Boris wasn't sexual misconduct. It was that Boris and the truth were not on speaking terms.
  • UnpopularUnpopular Posts: 881
    Watching NBC from the US... Nothing about Boris on this side of the pond that I've seen. Seems strange to me that the implosion of the Government of the 5th/6th/7th largest economy hasn't been mentioned. Am I missing something?
  • BartholomewRobertsBartholomewRoberts Posts: 21,963
    edited July 2022
    MISTY said:

    MISTY said:

    rcs1000 said:

    MISTY said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Some pretty quick to dance on Boris’ grave.

    But key questions for the next Tory leader now are:

    🔥 Do they stick with ripping up NI protocol
    🔥 Do they carry on the Rwanda plan
    🔥 Do they continue with the party’s realignment & embrace of the Red Wall / levelling up? https://twitter.com/michelbarnier/status/1545015642176233472

    Far more important than any of that is,,,,,,,,do they continue to embrace the hard target of net zero by 2050 at all costs?

    Do you really think people would give a t*ss about Chris effing Pincher if they weren't getting poorer by the month,, the forecasts were for them to get even poorer, and there was no prospect of a recovery?

    So, your solution to higher energy bills caused by imports of fossil fuels is for us to use more fossil fuels in the future?

    It's certainly a unique take.
    You seem to be ignoring the green levies (Up to 15% of bills?) that Britons pay for renewables that we hear on here are as cheap as chips.

    If Johnson had scrapped those subsidies, or even reduced them. he would still be PM now.
    The green levies are a drop in the ocean that are about 8% of bills now and that percentage has been falling rapidly. If he had scrapped them, it would barely have been noticed.

    And those levies aren't all to fund renewables either. A significant chunk of that fund goes to contribute towards paying for the bills of those who would struggle to pay for them otherwise, a form of welfare in other words.
    The point remains.

    If renewables are so cheap, then why do we have to subsidise them? Isn't Lord Deben rich enough?
    Well in part because we're committed to do so from before they were so cheap. Investments in older renewables, were made with a commitment to pay a certain tariff for years to come. New investments haven't had that for a while in many sectors. New solar investment won't get the feed in tariffs old ones did. New wind turbines don't get the fixed tariffs old ones did. We still need to pay what we committed to in the past and will do for the duration of those contracts, but that doesn't mean new investments are getting the same deal - new investments are economic on their own terms, so why would you avoid them now?

    Do you think old contracts that are committed to shouldn't be honoured? Or new ones, without subsidies, that are economically cheaper shouldn't be signed?
  • solarflaresolarflare Posts: 3,705

    So Boris hasn't actually resigned, has he?

    He's grudgingly accepted someone else has handed in his notice for him, is I think a fair description of it.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,089
    rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    MISTY said:

    Applicant said:

    Applicant said:

    Tory MPs queueing up to deliver the eulogies after stabbing him in the back... The chutzpah is incredible.

    Someone here yesterday came up with the perfect epitaph for Boris:

    Got the big calls right, treated the small calls with utter contempt.
    Got the biggest call (Brexit) wrong. Treated the voters with utter contempt.
    Implementing the biggest democratic vote in British history is treating the voters with utter contempt? OK then...
    Lied to them to win the Brexit vote. Lied to them in 2019 about his deal. Lied to them about levelling up. Lied to them about 40 new hospitals. Lied in the house of commons. Lied to the cabinet. Yeah, he's treated the voters, actually our entire democratic system, with contempt. Good riddance.
    You said "Got the biggest call (Brexit) wrong". But it's the alternative to this (ignoring the vote and remaining in the EU anyway as advocated by SKS) is what would have been treating the voters with contempt.

    Boris's negatives far outweigh his positives - but he did have positives.
    Look at Europe. Look at the dreadful f8icking state it is in. Betting the bank on Russian gas. At war with its farmers. Double digit inflation in some areas. Central bank able to do nothing for fear of screwing the weaker states.

    Why anyone wants to rejoin that, I will absolutely never know.
    Pretty much every country has inflation in the 5-12% range right now, with the exception of Russia (17%), Switzerland (3%) and Japan (3%) - https://tradingeconomics.com/country-list/inflation-rate

    The Eurozone and the US are both at 8.6%, while the UK is at 9.1%.

    Why?

    Because the cost of oil, gas and grain has gone through the roof.
    How come Switzerland isn't suffering the same inflationary pressures as the rest of europe?
    Like Japan, they had been regularly suffering from deflation, so inflation is up even there.
    It is worth noting that the Japanese inflation rate is also low because they've been buying cut price Russian LNG cargoes that the West is rejecting.
    Very little publicity around that.
  • mwadamsmwadams Posts: 3,582
    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    Mrs Sandpit is genuinely upset this afternoon.

    All candidates need to make it clear that the Ukraine policy will be continued.

    Ukraine is fortunately/unfortunately in the position of being his current devotion and having not yet been let down by him.
    So long as the weapons and training keep coming, the Ukranians will be happy.
    I think that this will be another nail in Johnson's self image. Those who come after will be equally lauded by Zelensky when they continue to do the same thing.

    Not that it wasn't the right thing to do, just that Johnson is not some international colossus, working miracles. He (for once) didn't do the *wrong* thing.
  • SlackbladderSlackbladder Posts: 9,772
    WTF is Andrew Bridgen alluding to there? Boris being 'unwell'
  • pingping Posts: 3,805
    IshmaelZ said:

    tlg86 said:

    Pulpstar said:

    ping said:

    Bad politics from Starmer, promising a VONC if Boris doesn’t go.

    I think he’s too sucked in to his Boris-hatred to see the wood for trees.

    Boris is now castrated. The story has moved on.

    IshmaelZ said:

    SKS not voncing this afternoon would be the biggest unforced error in political history

    HoC votes aren't secret. How can any tory mp vote confidence in him?

    Who's right here :D
    Ping

    The VONC is in the government, not the PM.
    Who is in charge of the government?

    Looking forward to ping reprising his chart hit, How Aaron Bell is doing himself and his constituents a disservice by agitating against the nailed on till 2024 pm boris johnson. Always gets me on the dance floor.
    Levelling up is about to be comprehensively ditched. That’s not good for Newcastle under Lyme. Stoke is about to get forgotten by the Tories.

    “Do you remember the time the tories won in Stoke?” Future PBers will remark, with incredulity.

    The new leader will revert to type. Their job is to serve the interests of wealthy members and voters in the south-east, while giving just enough scraps to the rest to scrape a majority.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 95,994
    Andy_JS said:

    You could argue Johnson was brought down by Owen Paterson, Christopher Pincher, Neil Parish, Imran Ahmad Khan.

    Parish and Khan were beyond his control. Paterson and Pincher the issue was not what they did, but how he reacted to what they did - he tried to protect Paterson, and he lied about what he knew about Pincher.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,038
    MISTY said:

    MISTY said:

    rcs1000 said:

    MISTY said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Some pretty quick to dance on Boris’ grave.

    But key questions for the next Tory leader now are:

    🔥 Do they stick with ripping up NI protocol
    🔥 Do they carry on the Rwanda plan
    🔥 Do they continue with the party’s realignment & embrace of the Red Wall / levelling up? https://twitter.com/michelbarnier/status/1545015642176233472

    Far more important than any of that is,,,,,,,,do they continue to embrace the hard target of net zero by 2050 at all costs?

    Do you really think people would give a t*ss about Chris effing Pincher if they weren't getting poorer by the month,, the forecasts were for them to get even poorer, and there was no prospect of a recovery?

    So, your solution to higher energy bills caused by imports of fossil fuels is for us to use more fossil fuels in the future?

    It's certainly a unique take.
    You seem to be ignoring the green levies (Up to 15% of bills?) that Britons pay for renewables that we hear on here are as cheap as chips.

    If Johnson had scrapped those subsidies, or even reduced them. he would still be PM now.
    The green levies are a drop in the ocean that are about 8% of bills now and that percentage has been falling rapidly. If he had scrapped them, it would barely have been noticed.

    And those levies aren't all to fund renewables either. A significant chunk of that fund goes to contribute towards paying for the bills of those who would struggle to pay for them otherwise, a form of welfare in other words.
    The point remains.

    If renewables are so cheap, then why do we have to subsidise them? Isn't Lord Deben rich enough?
    Because the UK government entered into fixed price purchase agreements in the past. And - to encourage adoption - offered very generous rates.

    Currently, those purchase prices* are well below market rates.

    Those twenty year fixed price contracts are starting to roll off, and wind farms will become merchant plants (i.e. price takers) like any other.

    * Except some small scale solar from pre 2012
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 95,994
    In all seriousness, MPs should receive some more orientation about parliamentary history and procedures. Won't help the liars like JRM, but might help some.

    How can people get to become Tory MPs without understanding parliamentary system? Perhaps party needs an inquiry into selections. Britain is not a presidential system, there's the Queen. In our parliamentary system, lose confidence of parliamentary party and/or parliament? Gone.

    https://twitter.com/iainmartin1/status/1544825584156565506?cxt=HHwWhICz-eKrqfAqAAAA
  • bigglesbiggles Posts: 5,953
    I note with amusement that all those who criticised anyone who supported Boris as doing the Kremlin’s bidding now have to accept that getting rid of him is what the Kremlin wanted.
  • Andy_JS said:

    Labour have missed their chance of a snap election in favourable circumstances.

    There was never any chance of that happening. It was entirely idle fantasy and speculation by half-wits.

    There just isn't any support among a large majority of MPs for any such thing, as there is a large Conservative majority and the only way is down.

    Johnson was keen to let the nonsense hang around as a nuclear threat, but the reality is that it wasn't a credible threat.

    And a VoNC doesn't give you an election - even if it had passed rather than Tories rallying round, a caretaker administration is formed which can command a Parliamentary majority.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,038

    MISTY said:

    MISTY said:

    rcs1000 said:

    MISTY said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Some pretty quick to dance on Boris’ grave.

    But key questions for the next Tory leader now are:

    🔥 Do they stick with ripping up NI protocol
    🔥 Do they carry on the Rwanda plan
    🔥 Do they continue with the party’s realignment & embrace of the Red Wall / levelling up? https://twitter.com/michelbarnier/status/1545015642176233472

    Far more important than any of that is,,,,,,,,do they continue to embrace the hard target of net zero by 2050 at all costs?

    Do you really think people would give a t*ss about Chris effing Pincher if they weren't getting poorer by the month,, the forecasts were for them to get even poorer, and there was no prospect of a recovery?

    So, your solution to higher energy bills caused by imports of fossil fuels is for us to use more fossil fuels in the future?

    It's certainly a unique take.
    You seem to be ignoring the green levies (Up to 15% of bills?) that Britons pay for renewables that we hear on here are as cheap as chips.

    If Johnson had scrapped those subsidies, or even reduced them. he would still be PM now.
    The green levies are a drop in the ocean that are about 8% of bills now and that percentage has been falling rapidly. If he had scrapped them, it would barely have been noticed.

    And those levies aren't all to fund renewables either. A significant chunk of that fund goes to contribute towards paying for the bills of those who would struggle to pay for them otherwise, a form of welfare in other words.
    The point remains.

    If renewables are so cheap, then why do we have to subsidise them? Isn't Lord Deben rich enough?
    Well in part because we're committed to do so from before they were so cheap. Investments in older renewables, were made with a commitment to pay a certain tariff for years to come. New investments haven't had that for a while in many sectors. New solar investment won't get the feed in tariffs old ones did. New wind turbines don't get the fixed tariffs old ones did. We still need to pay what we committed to in the past and will do for the duration of those contracts, but that doesn't mean new investments are getting the same deal - new investments are economic on their own terms, so why would you avoid them now?

    Do you think old contracts that are committed to shouldn't be honoured? Or new ones, without subsidies, that are economically cheaper shouldn't be signed?
    No one who installs solar in the UK takes the feed in tariff anymore, because it pays only about 20% of retail electricity prices.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    I've seen 4 PMs quit before Johnson & with each it was sad on a human level, whatever you personally felt about them. Brown & his little boys, walking out of no 10. May getting tearful. With Johnson: nada. Snide, lacking in grace & self awareness.

    https://twitter.com/gabyhinsliff/status/1545015839035981825
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 15,754

    Applicant said:

    Applicant said:

    Applicant said:

    Tory MPs queueing up to deliver the eulogies after stabbing him in the back... The chutzpah is incredible.

    Someone here yesterday came up with the perfect epitaph for Boris:

    Got the big calls right, treated the small calls with utter contempt.
    Got the biggest call (Brexit) wrong. Treated the voters with utter contempt.
    Implementing the biggest democratic vote in British history is treating the voters with utter contempt? OK then...
    Lied to them to win the Brexit vote. Lied to them in 2019 about his deal. Lied to them about levelling up. Lied to them about 40 new hospitals. Lied in the house of commons. Lied to the cabinet. Yeah, he's treated the voters, actually our entire democratic system, with contempt. Good riddance.
    You said "Got the biggest call (Brexit) wrong". But it's the alternative to this (ignoring the vote and remaining in the EU anyway as advocated by SKS) is what would have been treating the voters with contempt.

    Boris's negatives far outweigh his positives - but he did have positives.
    Johnson's lies duringwinning the Brexit campaign was what put us in the dire position of either inflicting a costly policy error on the economy or damaging trust in our democracy. There was no good outcome from there, but it was Johnson who put us there. We should have implemented a soft Brexit but that was blocked by May's red lines and the Tories whipping against those options in the Commons. And Johnson doesn't even believe in Brexit, the whole thing is simply a testimony to his infinite vanity and ambition.
    FTFY. And again, it's not just that Leave won, but that Cameron had refused to allow planning for what a Leave vote would mean.

    This just looks like an attempt to evade responsibility, like we saw with some lefties last night. If you put Corbyn up against Boris, you have to take some of the blame for the public seeing the latter as the lesser of two evils. Similarly, if you spent 25 years stopping the public having any say on the European Project beginning with Maastricht, leaving only the nuclear button available to the public, you can't blame them for pushing it.
    I criticised Labour for choosing Corbyn as leader on here yesterday and repeatedly in the past. It was a disastrously stupid thing to do. I voted against him as leader twice.
    We gave the public every opportunity to vote against what you call the European Project, in the usual way of a parliamentary democracy. What was UKIP's top vote share in a Westminster election? Referenda are a poor way of doing politics, they attract every kind of protest vote and dishonest campaigning hence you end up with a vote for a Brexit that meant different things to different people, that nobody could implement in the way it was sold, which has made us all poorer, and which the public no longer support.
    It has been a total disaster, leaving us divided and weak. And Boris Johnson was the one who got it over the line. So no, I don't believe he got the big calls right.
    When were the public given an opportunity to vote against the European Project?

    Do you mean 2010 when the Lib Dems were elected on a manifesto promising a referendum, which they then opposed holding.

    Do you mean 2005 when the Lib Dems, Labour and Conservatives were all elected on a manifesto promising a referendum, which Labour then refused to hold?

    2015 was the third General Election in a row where MPs were elected on a promise to hold a referendum. It wasn't some novel idea invented by Cameron.
    Labour promised to hold a referendum on the European constitution. The European constitution was abandoned after other countries voted it down. So the UK didn't hold a referendum on it.
  • rcs1000 said:

    MISTY said:

    MISTY said:

    rcs1000 said:

    MISTY said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Some pretty quick to dance on Boris’ grave.

    But key questions for the next Tory leader now are:

    🔥 Do they stick with ripping up NI protocol
    🔥 Do they carry on the Rwanda plan
    🔥 Do they continue with the party’s realignment & embrace of the Red Wall / levelling up? https://twitter.com/michelbarnier/status/1545015642176233472

    Far more important than any of that is,,,,,,,,do they continue to embrace the hard target of net zero by 2050 at all costs?

    Do you really think people would give a t*ss about Chris effing Pincher if they weren't getting poorer by the month,, the forecasts were for them to get even poorer, and there was no prospect of a recovery?

    So, your solution to higher energy bills caused by imports of fossil fuels is for us to use more fossil fuels in the future?

    It's certainly a unique take.
    You seem to be ignoring the green levies (Up to 15% of bills?) that Britons pay for renewables that we hear on here are as cheap as chips.

    If Johnson had scrapped those subsidies, or even reduced them. he would still be PM now.
    The green levies are a drop in the ocean that are about 8% of bills now and that percentage has been falling rapidly. If he had scrapped them, it would barely have been noticed.

    And those levies aren't all to fund renewables either. A significant chunk of that fund goes to contribute towards paying for the bills of those who would struggle to pay for them otherwise, a form of welfare in other words.
    The point remains.

    If renewables are so cheap, then why do we have to subsidise them? Isn't Lord Deben rich enough?
    Well in part because we're committed to do so from before they were so cheap. Investments in older renewables, were made with a commitment to pay a certain tariff for years to come. New investments haven't had that for a while in many sectors. New solar investment won't get the feed in tariffs old ones did. New wind turbines don't get the fixed tariffs old ones did. We still need to pay what we committed to in the past and will do for the duration of those contracts, but that doesn't mean new investments are getting the same deal - new investments are economic on their own terms, so why would you avoid them now?

    Do you think old contracts that are committed to shouldn't be honoured? Or new ones, without subsidies, that are economically cheaper shouldn't be signed?
    No one who installs solar in the UK takes the feed in tariff anymore, because it pays only about 20% of retail electricity prices.
    Indeed, that was my point, but old investments that were made a decade ago and still stand are still entitled to it, aren't they?
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,507
    edited July 2022

    WTF is Andrew Bridgen alluding to there? Boris being 'unwell'

    There's been rumours for a while that he struggles with long Covid then there's the rumours his mental health isn't well because he's not shagging as much.

    Apparently it didn't dawn on him that as PM, he just couldn't slip away quietly somewhere, he'd have a battalions of police officers with him.

    The lockdowns made it even more difficult, and the fact that Carrie's been permanently pregnant, means he's not got his usual amount of fun.

    Oh and money worries.
  • ApplicantApplicant Posts: 3,379

    Applicant said:

    Applicant said:

    Applicant said:

    Tory MPs queueing up to deliver the eulogies after stabbing him in the back... The chutzpah is incredible.

    Someone here yesterday came up with the perfect epitaph for Boris:

    Got the big calls right, treated the small calls with utter contempt.
    Got the biggest call (Brexit) wrong. Treated the voters with utter contempt.
    Implementing the biggest democratic vote in British history is treating the voters with utter contempt? OK then...
    Lied to them to win the Brexit vote. Lied to them in 2019 about his deal. Lied to them about levelling up. Lied to them about 40 new hospitals. Lied in the house of commons. Lied to the cabinet. Yeah, he's treated the voters, actually our entire democratic system, with contempt. Good riddance.
    You said "Got the biggest call (Brexit) wrong". But it's the alternative to this (ignoring the vote and remaining in the EU anyway as advocated by SKS) is what would have been treating the voters with contempt.

    Boris's negatives far outweigh his positives - but he did have positives.
    Johnson's lies duringwinning the Brexit campaign was what put us in the dire position of either inflicting a costly policy error on the economy or damaging trust in our democracy. There was no good outcome from there, but it was Johnson who put us there. We should have implemented a soft Brexit but that was blocked by May's red lines and the Tories whipping against those options in the Commons. And Johnson doesn't even believe in Brexit, the whole thing is simply a testimony to his infinite vanity and ambition.
    FTFY. And again, it's not just that Leave won, but that Cameron had refused to allow planning for what a Leave vote would mean.

    This just looks like an attempt to evade responsibility, like we saw with some lefties last night. If you put Corbyn up against Boris, you have to take some of the blame for the public seeing the latter as the lesser of two evils. Similarly, if you spent 25 years stopping the public having any say on the European Project beginning with Maastricht, leaving only the nuclear button available to the public, you can't blame them for pushing it.
    I criticised Labour for choosing Corbyn as leader on here yesterday and repeatedly in the past. It was a disastrously stupid thing to do. I voted against him as leader twice.
    We gave the public every opportunity to vote against what you call the European Project, in the usual way of a parliamentary democracy. What was UKIP's top vote share in a Westminster election? Referenda are a poor way of doing politics, they attract every kind of protest vote and dishonest campaigning hence you end up with a vote for a Brexit that meant different things to different people, that nobody could implement in the way it was sold, which has made us all poorer, and which the public no longer support.
    It has been a total disaster, leaving us divided and weak. And Boris Johnson was the one who got it over the line. So no, I don't believe he got the big calls right.
    When were the public given an opportunity to vote against the European Project?

    Do you mean 2010 when the Lib Dems were elected on a manifesto promising a referendum, which they then opposed holding.

    Do you mean 2005 when the Lib Dems, Labour and Conservatives were all elected on a manifesto promising a referendum, which Labour then refused to hold?

    2015 was the third General Election in a row where MPs were elected on a promise to hold a referendum. It wasn't some novel idea invented by Cameron.
    Labour promised to hold a referendum on the European constitution. The European constitution was abandoned after other countries voted it down. So the UK didn't hold a referendum on it.
    Renamed. Not abandoned.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    Nigelb said:

    Not sure Wallace will get close to the top job.

    Strongly suspect a woman will be seen the best to confront Starmer.

    Truss and Pitel would be a disaster for the Tories though. I can't quite put my finger on why I feel Truss would go down like a lead balloon but I think it is her presence. She always seems like a lightweight mimicking a serious politician.
    Yes, I have sympathy with that take.

    Truss has that slightly distant response of a ventriloquists dummy.

    I wouldn't bet on her, either.

    Liz Truss makes early G20 exit to drum up Tory leadership support
    Foreign secretary’s retreat from Indonesia summit and potential showdown with Russia may concern allies
    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2022/jul/07/liz-truss-makes-early-g20-exit-to-drum-up-tory-leadership-support
    Hasn’t got “I’m a serious politician” written all over it, has it?

  • Nigel_ForemainNigel_Foremain Posts: 14,289
    biggles said:

    I note with amusement that all those who criticised anyone who supported Boris as doing the Kremlin’s bidding now have to accept that getting rid of him is what the Kremlin wanted.

    Rubbish, he delivered (or so he claims) the 2016 referendum result, a result much hoped for (and ably assisted) by the Kremlin. He is also a chaotic joke, so Putin would have been very happy for him to remain in place. The only person Putin would prefer would be Jezza Corbyn
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,157

    WTF is Andrew Bridgen alluding to there? Boris being 'unwell'

    There's been rumours for a while that he struggles with long Covid then there's the rumours his mental health isn't well because he's not shagging as much.

    Apparently it didn't dawn on him that as PM, he just couldn't slip away quietly somewhere, he'd have a battalions of police officers with him.

    The lockdowns made it even more difficult, and the fact that Carrie's been permanently pregnant, means he's not got his usual amount of fun.

    Oh and money worries.
    Can you not have sex when pregnant or something?
  • Nigel_ForemainNigel_Foremain Posts: 14,289

    Nigelb said:

    Not sure Wallace will get close to the top job.

    Strongly suspect a woman will be seen the best to confront Starmer.

    Truss and Pitel would be a disaster for the Tories though. I can't quite put my finger on why I feel Truss would go down like a lead balloon but I think it is her presence. She always seems like a lightweight mimicking a serious politician.
    Yes, I have sympathy with that take.

    Truss has that slightly distant response of a ventriloquists dummy.

    I wouldn't bet on her, either.

    Liz Truss makes early G20 exit to drum up Tory leadership support
    Foreign secretary’s retreat from Indonesia summit and potential showdown with Russia may concern allies
    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2022/jul/07/liz-truss-makes-early-g20-exit-to-drum-up-tory-leadership-support
    Hasn’t got “I’m a serious politician” written all over it, has it?

    Only slightly less of a joke than Johnson
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,507
    tlg86 said:

    WTF is Andrew Bridgen alluding to there? Boris being 'unwell'

    There's been rumours for a while that he struggles with long Covid then there's the rumours his mental health isn't well because he's not shagging as much.

    Apparently it didn't dawn on him that as PM, he just couldn't slip away quietly somewhere, he'd have a battalions of police officers with him.

    The lockdowns made it even more difficult, and the fact that Carrie's been permanently pregnant, means he's not got his usual amount of fun.

    Oh and money worries.
    Can you not have sex when pregnant or something?
    You can but it can be a challenge.

    Factor in tiredness and morning sickness, oh and the need to pee gallons every two minutes...
  • Applicant said:

    Applicant said:

    Applicant said:

    Tory MPs queueing up to deliver the eulogies after stabbing him in the back... The chutzpah is incredible.

    Someone here yesterday came up with the perfect epitaph for Boris:

    Got the big calls right, treated the small calls with utter contempt.
    Got the biggest call (Brexit) wrong. Treated the voters with utter contempt.
    Implementing the biggest democratic vote in British history is treating the voters with utter contempt? OK then...
    Lied to them to win the Brexit vote. Lied to them in 2019 about his deal. Lied to them about levelling up. Lied to them about 40 new hospitals. Lied in the house of commons. Lied to the cabinet. Yeah, he's treated the voters, actually our entire democratic system, with contempt. Good riddance.
    You said "Got the biggest call (Brexit) wrong". But it's the alternative to this (ignoring the vote and remaining in the EU anyway as advocated by SKS) is what would have been treating the voters with contempt.

    Boris's negatives far outweigh his positives - but he did have positives.
    Johnson's lies duringwinning the Brexit campaign was what put us in the dire position of either inflicting a costly policy error on the economy or damaging trust in our democracy. There was no good outcome from there, but it was Johnson who put us there. We should have implemented a soft Brexit but that was blocked by May's red lines and the Tories whipping against those options in the Commons. And Johnson doesn't even believe in Brexit, the whole thing is simply a testimony to his infinite vanity and ambition.
    FTFY. And again, it's not just that Leave won, but that Cameron had refused to allow planning for what a Leave vote would mean.

    This just looks like an attempt to evade responsibility, like we saw with some lefties last night. If you put Corbyn up against Boris, you have to take some of the blame for the public seeing the latter as the lesser of two evils. Similarly, if you spent 25 years stopping the public having any say on the European Project beginning with Maastricht, leaving only the nuclear button available to the public, you can't blame them for pushing it.
    I criticised Labour for choosing Corbyn as leader on here yesterday and repeatedly in the past. It was a disastrously stupid thing to do. I voted against him as leader twice.
    We gave the public every opportunity to vote against what you call the European Project, in the usual way of a parliamentary democracy. What was UKIP's top vote share in a Westminster election? Referenda are a poor way of doing politics, they attract every kind of protest vote and dishonest campaigning hence you end up with a vote for a Brexit that meant different things to different people, that nobody could implement in the way it was sold, which has made us all poorer, and which the public no longer support.
    It has been a total disaster, leaving us divided and weak. And Boris Johnson was the one who got it over the line. So no, I don't believe he got the big calls right.
    When were the public given an opportunity to vote against the European Project?

    Do you mean 2010 when the Lib Dems were elected on a manifesto promising a referendum, which they then opposed holding.

    Do you mean 2005 when the Lib Dems, Labour and Conservatives were all elected on a manifesto promising a referendum, which Labour then refused to hold?

    2015 was the third General Election in a row where MPs were elected on a promise to hold a referendum. It wasn't some novel idea invented by Cameron.
    Labour promised to hold a referendum on the European constitution. The European constitution was abandoned after other countries voted it down. So the UK didn't hold a referendum on it.
    The European constitution wasn't abandoned, it was renamed the Lisbon Treaty. So the UK could and should have held a referendum on it.

    You claimed the public could have used normal Parliamentary processes - the point is though, they did!

    The normal Parliamentary process (2005) meant Labour promised to hold a vote, which people voted for and they reneged on, and Labour haven't been in power since.

    The normal Parliamentary process (2010) meant the Lib Dems promised to hold a vote, which people voted for and they then were horrified when Cameron chose to implement their policy. They haven't been in power since.

    The normal Parliamentary process (2015) meant third time in a row people voted for a manifesto of a vote and that got a majority. Then we had the referendum.

    The normal Parliamentary process (2017) meant that an overwhelming majority (Labour + Tories + some others) of people were elected on pro-Brexit platforms, following the referendum.

    The normal Parliamentary process (2019) gave an 80 seat majority to get Brexit done. Fifth normal Parliamentary process in a row that people expressed their views, even if you disliked it, not even counting the referendum.
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830
    biggles said:

    I note with amusement that all those who criticised anyone who supported Boris as doing the Kremlin’s bidding now have to accept that getting rid of him is what the Kremlin wanted.

    Keep the non sequiturs coming
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,509
    mwadams said:

    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    Mrs Sandpit is genuinely upset this afternoon.

    All candidates need to make it clear that the Ukraine policy will be continued.

    Ukraine is fortunately/unfortunately in the position of being his current devotion and having not yet been let down by him.
    So long as the weapons and training keep coming, the Ukranians will be happy.
    I think that this will be another nail in Johnson's self image. Those who come after will be equally lauded by Zelensky when they continue to do the same thing.

    Not that it wasn't the right thing to do, just that Johnson is not some international colossus, working miracles. He (for once) didn't do the *wrong* thing.
    Despite his image at home, his image abroad is one of the savior of Ukraine, from foreign journalists.
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 22,805
    What does the ideal (for the electoral process rather than governing) candidate look like:

    "Sound" on Brexit
    Low risk of scandal
    Willing to offer unaffordable tax cuts.

    3/3 Baker Mordaunt
    2.5/3 Wallace, Javid
    2/3 Truss, Braverman
    1.5/3 Tugenhat, Hunt
    1/3 Sunak
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 81,813

    WTF is Andrew Bridgen alluding to there? Boris being 'unwell'

    There's been rumours for a while that he struggles with long Covid then there's the rumours his mental health isn't well because he's not shagging as much.

    Apparently it didn't dawn on him that as PM, he just couldn't slip away quietly somewhere, he'd have a battalions of police officers with him.

    The lockdowns made it even more difficult, and the fact that Carrie's been permanently pregnant, means he's not got his usual amount of fun.

    Oh and money worries.
    I bet he is kicking himself he didn't just step down earlier under the guise of long covid.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,492
    What are the chances of Penny Mordaunt being in the top two? Maybe pretty high if Liz Truss's campaign fails to get off the ground.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,038
    edited July 2022

    rcs1000 said:

    MISTY said:

    MISTY said:

    rcs1000 said:

    MISTY said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Some pretty quick to dance on Boris’ grave.

    But key questions for the next Tory leader now are:

    🔥 Do they stick with ripping up NI protocol
    🔥 Do they carry on the Rwanda plan
    🔥 Do they continue with the party’s realignment & embrace of the Red Wall / levelling up? https://twitter.com/michelbarnier/status/1545015642176233472

    Far more important than any of that is,,,,,,,,do they continue to embrace the hard target of net zero by 2050 at all costs?

    Do you really think people would give a t*ss about Chris effing Pincher if they weren't getting poorer by the month,, the forecasts were for them to get even poorer, and there was no prospect of a recovery?

    So, your solution to higher energy bills caused by imports of fossil fuels is for us to use more fossil fuels in the future?

    It's certainly a unique take.
    You seem to be ignoring the green levies (Up to 15% of bills?) that Britons pay for renewables that we hear on here are as cheap as chips.

    If Johnson had scrapped those subsidies, or even reduced them. he would still be PM now.
    The green levies are a drop in the ocean that are about 8% of bills now and that percentage has been falling rapidly. If he had scrapped them, it would barely have been noticed.

    And those levies aren't all to fund renewables either. A significant chunk of that fund goes to contribute towards paying for the bills of those who would struggle to pay for them otherwise, a form of welfare in other words.
    The point remains.

    If renewables are so cheap, then why do we have to subsidise them? Isn't Lord Deben rich enough?
    Well in part because we're committed to do so from before they were so cheap. Investments in older renewables, were made with a commitment to pay a certain tariff for years to come. New investments haven't had that for a while in many sectors. New solar investment won't get the feed in tariffs old ones did. New wind turbines don't get the fixed tariffs old ones did. We still need to pay what we committed to in the past and will do for the duration of those contracts, but that doesn't mean new investments are getting the same deal - new investments are economic on their own terms, so why would you avoid them now?

    Do you think old contracts that are committed to shouldn't be honoured? Or new ones, without subsidies, that are economically cheaper shouldn't be signed?
    No one who installs solar in the UK takes the feed in tariff anymore, because it pays only about 20% of retail electricity prices.
    Indeed, that was my point, but old investments that were made a decade ago and still stand are still entitled to it, aren't they?
    I was agreeing with you :smile:
  • mwadamsmwadams Posts: 3,582
    Sandpit said:

    mwadams said:

    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    Mrs Sandpit is genuinely upset this afternoon.

    All candidates need to make it clear that the Ukraine policy will be continued.

    Ukraine is fortunately/unfortunately in the position of being his current devotion and having not yet been let down by him.
    So long as the weapons and training keep coming, the Ukranians will be happy.
    I think that this will be another nail in Johnson's self image. Those who come after will be equally lauded by Zelensky when they continue to do the same thing.

    Not that it wasn't the right thing to do, just that Johnson is not some international colossus, working miracles. He (for once) didn't do the *wrong* thing.
    Despite his image at home, his image abroad is one of the savior of Ukraine, from foreign journalists.
    Exactly - but I suspect that may dissipate in his absence, when his successor continues to implement the policy.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,708
    edited July 2022
    Unpopular said:

    Watching NBC from the US... Nothing about Boris on this side of the pond that I've seen. Seems strange to me that the implosion of the Government of the 5th/6th/7th largest economy hasn't been mentioned. Am I missing something?

    It is the main news on the ABC, Fox news websites and CNN even if Americans are normally focused on their own affairs

    https://abcnews.go.com/
    https://www.foxnews.com/
    https://edition.cnn.com/

    In any case the government has no longer imploded, the PM gas resigned and the Tory party will elect a new leader who will in turn replace them as PM
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,157

    tlg86 said:

    WTF is Andrew Bridgen alluding to there? Boris being 'unwell'

    There's been rumours for a while that he struggles with long Covid then there's the rumours his mental health isn't well because he's not shagging as much.

    Apparently it didn't dawn on him that as PM, he just couldn't slip away quietly somewhere, he'd have a battalions of police officers with him.

    The lockdowns made it even more difficult, and the fact that Carrie's been permanently pregnant, means he's not got his usual amount of fun.

    Oh and money worries.
    Can you not have sex when pregnant or something?
    You can but it can be a challenge.

    Factor in tiredness and morning sickness, oh and the need to pee gallons every two minutes...
    Well, that last bit would be added bonus for some men. :lol:
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,329
    Andy_JS said:

    You could argue Johnson was brought down by Owen Paterson, Christopher Pincher, Neil Parish, Imran Ahmad Khan.

    No Boris Johnson was brought down by Boris Johnson. Keep up!
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,089
    rcs1000 said:

    MISTY said:

    MISTY said:

    rcs1000 said:

    MISTY said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Some pretty quick to dance on Boris’ grave.

    But key questions for the next Tory leader now are:

    🔥 Do they stick with ripping up NI protocol
    🔥 Do they carry on the Rwanda plan
    🔥 Do they continue with the party’s realignment & embrace of the Red Wall / levelling up? https://twitter.com/michelbarnier/status/1545015642176233472

    Far more important than any of that is,,,,,,,,do they continue to embrace the hard target of net zero by 2050 at all costs?

    Do you really think people would give a t*ss about Chris effing Pincher if they weren't getting poorer by the month,, the forecasts were for them to get even poorer, and there was no prospect of a recovery?

    So, your solution to higher energy bills caused by imports of fossil fuels is for us to use more fossil fuels in the future?

    It's certainly a unique take.
    You seem to be ignoring the green levies (Up to 15% of bills?) that Britons pay for renewables that we hear on here are as cheap as chips.

    If Johnson had scrapped those subsidies, or even reduced them. he would still be PM now.
    The green levies are a drop in the ocean that are about 8% of bills now and that percentage has been falling rapidly. If he had scrapped them, it would barely have been noticed.

    And those levies aren't all to fund renewables either. A significant chunk of that fund goes to contribute towards paying for the bills of those who would struggle to pay for them otherwise, a form of welfare in other words.
    The point remains.

    If renewables are so cheap, then why do we have to subsidise them? Isn't Lord Deben rich enough?
    Well in part because we're committed to do so from before they were so cheap. Investments in older renewables, were made with a commitment to pay a certain tariff for years to come. New investments haven't had that for a while in many sectors. New solar investment won't get the feed in tariffs old ones did. New wind turbines don't get the fixed tariffs old ones did. We still need to pay what we committed to in the past and will do for the duration of those contracts, but that doesn't mean new investments are getting the same deal - new investments are economic on their own terms, so why would you avoid them now?

    Do you think old contracts that are committed to shouldn't be honoured? Or new ones, without subsidies, that are economically cheaper shouldn't be signed?
    No one who installs solar in the UK takes the feed in tariff anymore, because it pays only about 20% of retail electricity prices.
    I'm on £153.80 / MwH or £182.95 if you include the deemed element.
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 17,326

    Wout van aert at it again today. He can't keep this up surely.

    ??????????????????
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,038
    MaxPB said:

    rcs1000 said:

    MISTY said:

    Applicant said:

    Applicant said:

    Tory MPs queueing up to deliver the eulogies after stabbing him in the back... The chutzpah is incredible.

    Someone here yesterday came up with the perfect epitaph for Boris:

    Got the big calls right, treated the small calls with utter contempt.
    Got the biggest call (Brexit) wrong. Treated the voters with utter contempt.
    Implementing the biggest democratic vote in British history is treating the voters with utter contempt? OK then...
    Lied to them to win the Brexit vote. Lied to them in 2019 about his deal. Lied to them about levelling up. Lied to them about 40 new hospitals. Lied in the house of commons. Lied to the cabinet. Yeah, he's treated the voters, actually our entire democratic system, with contempt. Good riddance.
    You said "Got the biggest call (Brexit) wrong". But it's the alternative to this (ignoring the vote and remaining in the EU anyway as advocated by SKS) is what would have been treating the voters with contempt.

    Boris's negatives far outweigh his positives - but he did have positives.
    Look at Europe. Look at the dreadful f8icking state it is in. Betting the bank on Russian gas. At war with its farmers. Double digit inflation in some areas. Central bank able to do nothing for fear of screwing the weaker states.

    Why anyone wants to rejoin that, I will absolutely never know.
    Pretty much every country has inflation in the 5-12% range right now, with the exception of Russia (17%), Switzerland (3%) and Japan (3%) - https://tradingeconomics.com/country-list/inflation-rate

    The Eurozone and the US are both at 8.6%, while the UK is at 9.1%.

    Why?

    Because the cost of oil, gas and grain has gone through the roof.
    I wonder how much better we'd be off if the BoE had pushed the 0.5% rise the last two goes around and sterling was sitting at $1.27-1.29, a lot of the current inflation is imported and priced in dollars. The Bank's failure to properly raise rates has compounded out inflation issue.
    The USD has moved pretty much in lockstep against the Euro, the Yen, the Pound, the Rupee and even the Canadian and Australian Dollars (which are big commodity exporters), so it feels mostly like it's a rush to safety.

    Higher rates might help lift currency somewhat... but they would also hit UK consumers at a time when they are already being squeezed.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 81,813

    Wout van aert at it again today. He can't keep this up surely.

    ??????????????????
    He has gone off the front again in a 3 man break away with 100+ miles to go. Every day so far he has been putting in massive efforts.
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830

    WTF is Andrew Bridgen alluding to there? Boris being 'unwell'

    There's been rumours for a while that he struggles with long Covid then there's the rumours his mental health isn't well because he's not shagging as much.

    Apparently it didn't dawn on him that as PM, he just couldn't slip away quietly somewhere, he'd have a battalions of police officers with him.

    The lockdowns made it even more difficult, and the fact that Carrie's been permanently pregnant, means he's not got his usual amount of fun.

    Oh and money worries.
    Of course as ex PM he's going to have the battalions of coppers for the rest of his life

    awkward
  • Nigel_ForemainNigel_Foremain Posts: 14,289

    Leon said:

    rcs1000 said:

    MISTY said:

    Applicant said:

    Applicant said:

    Tory MPs queueing up to deliver the eulogies after stabbing him in the back... The chutzpah is incredible.

    Someone here yesterday came up with the perfect epitaph for Boris:

    Got the big calls right, treated the small calls with utter contempt.
    Got the biggest call (Brexit) wrong. Treated the voters with utter contempt.
    Implementing the biggest democratic vote in British history is treating the voters with utter contempt? OK then...
    Lied to them to win the Brexit vote. Lied to them in 2019 about his deal. Lied to them about levelling up. Lied to them about 40 new hospitals. Lied in the house of commons. Lied to the cabinet. Yeah, he's treated the voters, actually our entire democratic system, with contempt. Good riddance.
    You said "Got the biggest call (Brexit) wrong". But it's the alternative to this (ignoring the vote and remaining in the EU anyway as advocated by SKS) is what would have been treating the voters with contempt.

    Boris's negatives far outweigh his positives - but he did have positives.
    Look at Europe. Look at the dreadful f8icking state it is in. Betting the bank on Russian gas. At war with its farmers. Double digit inflation in some areas. Central bank able to do nothing for fear of screwing the weaker states.

    Why anyone wants to rejoin that, I will absolutely never know.
    Pretty much every country has inflation in the 5-12% range right now, with the exception of Russia (17%), Switzerland (3%) and Japan (3%) - https://tradingeconomics.com/country-list/inflation-rate

    The Eurozone and the US are both at 8.6%, while the UK is at 9.1%.

    Why?

    Because the cost of oil, gas and grain has gone through the roof.
    How come Switzerland isn't suffering the same inflationary pressures as the rest of europe?
    Do they rely on hydro and nuclear power and are not as dependent on gas as other countries ?
    Strength of the Swiss franc? It’s a very hard currency
    The franc hasn't changed that much versus sterling.

    But the fact that they get most of their electricity from hydro power, and they did have negative inflation in most of recent years, means that they have not as much extra inflation and added onto a lower base.
    When I first did business in Switzerland around 2001, 1 Swiss Franc was worth £0.4. It is now worth £0.86
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 17,326

    Wout van aert at it again today. He can't keep this up surely.

    ??????????????????
    He has gone off the front again in a 3 man break away with 100+ miles to go. Every day so far he has been putting in massive efforts.
    Ah - some pointless cycling race! Totally confused and assumed a spelling mistake!
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,089

    Wout van aert at it again today. He can't keep this up surely.

    ??????????????????
    He won't be allowed to head off the front in the big mountain stages. I think Pogacar is rightly still the clear favourite.
  • ChrisChris Posts: 11,742
    Farooq said:

    WTF is Andrew Bridgen alluding to there? Boris being 'unwell'

    There's been rumours for a while that he struggles with long Covid then there's the rumours his mental health isn't well because he's not shagging as much.

    Apparently it didn't dawn on him that as PM, he just couldn't slip away quietly somewhere, he'd have a battalions of police officers with him.

    The lockdowns made it even more difficult, and the fact that Carrie's been permanently pregnant, means he's not got his usual amount of fun.

    Oh and money worries.
    I bet he is kicking himself he didn't just step down earlier under the guise of long covid.
    No he isn't, he's planning his revenge. Pay attention.
    Right now he's probably looking for a lab that can breed a virus-resistant form of SARS-2, so he can flip from a "Living with COVID" narrative to an "Only Boris can save you from SARS-3" narrative.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,708
    edited July 2022
    Right to life already has rankings out on how pro life or pro abortion potential Tory leadership candidates are.

    Baker, Wallace and Hunt most pro life, Mordaunt, Zahawi and Truss most pro abortion

    https://righttolife.org.uk/news/leadership-candidates-abortion
  • MISTYMISTY Posts: 1,594
    Somebody retweeted a couple of Dominic Cummings tweets on Johnson's leaving.

    He thinks Johnson can't go soon enough. To put it very mildly.
  • UnpopularUnpopular Posts: 881
    HYUFD said:

    Unpopular said:

    Watching NBC from the US... Nothing about Boris on this side of the pond that I've seen. Seems strange to me that the implosion of the Government of the 5th/6th/7th largest economy hasn't been mentioned. Am I missing something?

    It is the main news on the ABC, Fox news websites and CNN even if Americans are normally focused on their own affairs

    https://abcnews.go.com/
    https://www.foxnews.com/
    https://edition.cnn.com/

    In any case the government has no longer imploded, the PM gas resigned and the Tory party will elect a new leader who will in turn replace them as PM
    Ah, not a peep about it on the box so far. I have a sneaking suspicion that maybe I'm not watching the main news channel or something. Very odd
  • Stark_DawningStark_Dawning Posts: 9,677
    HYUFD said:

    Right to life already has rankings out on how pro life or pro abortion potential Tory leadership candidates are.

    Baker, Wallace and Hunt most pro life, Mordaunt, Zahawi and Truss most pro abortion

    https://righttolife.org.uk/news/leadership-candidates-abortion

    Isn't the etiquette to say pro-choice?
  • Nigel_ForemainNigel_Foremain Posts: 14,289

    Andy_JS said:

    You could argue Johnson was brought down by Owen Paterson, Christopher Pincher, Neil Parish, Imran Ahmad Khan.

    and Boris Johnson
    Interesting that three of them had surnames beginning with P. If he could have managed a few more he could have have the 6 Ps, which as every business person knows stands for Perfect Preparation Prevents Piss Poor Performance.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,038
    tlg86 said:

    WTF is Andrew Bridgen alluding to there? Boris being 'unwell'

    There's been rumours for a while that he struggles with long Covid then there's the rumours his mental health isn't well because he's not shagging as much.

    Apparently it didn't dawn on him that as PM, he just couldn't slip away quietly somewhere, he'd have a battalions of police officers with him.

    The lockdowns made it even more difficult, and the fact that Carrie's been permanently pregnant, means he's not got his usual amount of fun.

    Oh and money worries.
    Can you not have sex when pregnant or something?
    I believe there are websites for people who are into that kind of thing.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,759

    Wout van aert at it again today. He can't keep this up surely.

    ??????????????????
    He has gone off the front again in a 3 man break away with 100+ miles to go. Every day so far he has been putting in massive efforts.
    Cycling?
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,039
    Guardian

    “Olexander Scherba, Ukraine’s former ambassador to Austria, thanked Johnson on Twitter. “Many of my friends hated Boris Johnson for his role in Brexit. Quite frankly, I disliked him for that too. But my God, he did the right thing about Ukraine. And I’m not sure he would have been able to do it if the UK were still in the EU. Anyways, thank you, Boris!” he wrote

    Zelenskiy’s office has made no secret of its fondness for Johnson, repeatedly praising him as an example to other world leaders.”
  • kjhkjh Posts: 11,773

    Leon said:

    rcs1000 said:

    MISTY said:

    Applicant said:

    Applicant said:

    Tory MPs queueing up to deliver the eulogies after stabbing him in the back... The chutzpah is incredible.

    Someone here yesterday came up with the perfect epitaph for Boris:

    Got the big calls right, treated the small calls with utter contempt.
    Got the biggest call (Brexit) wrong. Treated the voters with utter contempt.
    Implementing the biggest democratic vote in British history is treating the voters with utter contempt? OK then...
    Lied to them to win the Brexit vote. Lied to them in 2019 about his deal. Lied to them about levelling up. Lied to them about 40 new hospitals. Lied in the house of commons. Lied to the cabinet. Yeah, he's treated the voters, actually our entire democratic system, with contempt. Good riddance.
    You said "Got the biggest call (Brexit) wrong". But it's the alternative to this (ignoring the vote and remaining in the EU anyway as advocated by SKS) is what would have been treating the voters with contempt.

    Boris's negatives far outweigh his positives - but he did have positives.
    Look at Europe. Look at the dreadful f8icking state it is in. Betting the bank on Russian gas. At war with its farmers. Double digit inflation in some areas. Central bank able to do nothing for fear of screwing the weaker states.

    Why anyone wants to rejoin that, I will absolutely never know.
    Pretty much every country has inflation in the 5-12% range right now, with the exception of Russia (17%), Switzerland (3%) and Japan (3%) - https://tradingeconomics.com/country-list/inflation-rate

    The Eurozone and the US are both at 8.6%, while the UK is at 9.1%.

    Why?

    Because the cost of oil, gas and grain has gone through the roof.
    How come Switzerland isn't suffering the same inflationary pressures as the rest of europe?
    Do they rely on hydro and nuclear power and are not as dependent on gas as other countries ?
    Strength of the Swiss franc? It’s a very hard currency
    The franc hasn't changed that much versus sterling.

    But the fact that they get most of their electricity from hydro power, and they did have negative inflation in most of recent years, means that they have not as much extra inflation and added onto a lower base.
    When I first did business in Switzerland around 2001, 1 Swiss Franc was worth £0.4. It is now worth £0.86
    There was a big jump when it decoupled from the euro.
  • Andy_JS said:

    You could argue Johnson was brought down by Owen Paterson, Christopher Pincher, Neil Parish, Imran Ahmad Khan.

    You'd be totally wrong, though.

    The by-elections caused by Parish and Khan were out of Johnson's control, just as most by-elections are. They happen, and lost by-elections are unhelpful to any PM.

    But the reason they were lost wasn't down to Parish or Khan. In neither case was their conduct helpful to the Tory campaign, but they were lost due to the PM and his Government being unpopular. Indeed, while Khan's conduct was a serious criminal matter, Parish elicited a degree of sympathy as he had done something crazy for which he was genuinely, deeply embarrassed. Note that Chesham & Amersham was lost earlier, when the Conservatives were doing rather better generally, and no blame attaches to the late MP - Governments lose by-elections, not really outgoing MPs.

    In the cases of Paterson and Pincher, the damage was caused by unforgivable arrogance and stupidly in handling the matters by the PM personally. No PM gets away without a problem erupting, but Johnson turned them into existential crises.

    Paterson was caught on a clear breach of lobbying rules. Johnson was persuaded, by IDS and others, to blatantly try to bend the rules to save him. Then, when it became clear there were significant headwinds, he threw all the MPs who had defended the indefensible on his behalf under the bus, causing enormous resentment.

    For Pincher, it was Johnson's blunder in appointing him when he knew the background. That was a bad enough error, but then he lied about what he knew, and had colleagues debase themselves by repeating his lie on the media rounds.

    Don't fall into the Johnson "poor me" trap of thinking this is down to other people letting him down. This is ALL Johnson personally. No Government is free of problems with personnel and election setbacks. But his handling of them - the constant lies, the overweening arrogance, the willingness to sacrifice others for himself at every turn - that's what has burned through the goodwill he had from a strong election win in 2019 in just two and a half years. Contrary to the mantra of him and his acolytes - he got the big calls wrong.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,476
    Anecdote alert:

    Just had a word with our window cleaner, who asked me if Boris had gone yet. He said that it was a shame, and although he lied him, as a liar he had to go. "I mean, partying and drinking whilst everyone else was locked up."

    He asked me who I thought would take over. I said Raab or Wallace, then cheekily added Aaron Bell onto the list. ;)
  • kjhkjh Posts: 11,773
    HYUFD said:

    Right to life already has rankings out on how pro life or pro abortion potential Tory leadership candidates are.

    Baker, Wallace and Hunt most pro life, Mordaunt, Zahawi and Truss most pro abortion

    https://righttolife.org.uk/news/leadership-candidates-abortion

    Always a free vote so not sure how this matters in the leadership race.
  • Leon said:

    rcs1000 said:

    MISTY said:

    Applicant said:

    Applicant said:

    Tory MPs queueing up to deliver the eulogies after stabbing him in the back... The chutzpah is incredible.

    Someone here yesterday came up with the perfect epitaph for Boris:

    Got the big calls right, treated the small calls with utter contempt.
    Got the biggest call (Brexit) wrong. Treated the voters with utter contempt.
    Implementing the biggest democratic vote in British history is treating the voters with utter contempt? OK then...
    Lied to them to win the Brexit vote. Lied to them in 2019 about his deal. Lied to them about levelling up. Lied to them about 40 new hospitals. Lied in the house of commons. Lied to the cabinet. Yeah, he's treated the voters, actually our entire democratic system, with contempt. Good riddance.
    You said "Got the biggest call (Brexit) wrong". But it's the alternative to this (ignoring the vote and remaining in the EU anyway as advocated by SKS) is what would have been treating the voters with contempt.

    Boris's negatives far outweigh his positives - but he did have positives.
    Look at Europe. Look at the dreadful f8icking state it is in. Betting the bank on Russian gas. At war with its farmers. Double digit inflation in some areas. Central bank able to do nothing for fear of screwing the weaker states.

    Why anyone wants to rejoin that, I will absolutely never know.
    Pretty much every country has inflation in the 5-12% range right now, with the exception of Russia (17%), Switzerland (3%) and Japan (3%) - https://tradingeconomics.com/country-list/inflation-rate

    The Eurozone and the US are both at 8.6%, while the UK is at 9.1%.

    Why?

    Because the cost of oil, gas and grain has gone through the roof.
    How come Switzerland isn't suffering the same inflationary pressures as the rest of europe?
    Do they rely on hydro and nuclear power and are not as dependent on gas as other countries ?
    Strength of the Swiss franc? It’s a very hard currency
    The franc hasn't changed that much versus sterling.

    But the fact that they get most of their electricity from hydro power, and they did have negative inflation in most of recent years, means that they have not as much extra inflation and added onto a lower base.
    When I first did business in Switzerland around 2001, 1 Swiss Franc was worth £0.4. It is now worth £0.86
    Absolutely, but the overwhelming majority of that change happened 2007 - 2011, not the past few months.

    Early December 2021 1 Swiss Franc was worth £0.82, by early June 2022 it was worth £0.82
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,038
    Pulpstar said:

    rcs1000 said:

    MISTY said:

    MISTY said:

    rcs1000 said:

    MISTY said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Some pretty quick to dance on Boris’ grave.

    But key questions for the next Tory leader now are:

    🔥 Do they stick with ripping up NI protocol
    🔥 Do they carry on the Rwanda plan
    🔥 Do they continue with the party’s realignment & embrace of the Red Wall / levelling up? https://twitter.com/michelbarnier/status/1545015642176233472

    Far more important than any of that is,,,,,,,,do they continue to embrace the hard target of net zero by 2050 at all costs?

    Do you really think people would give a t*ss about Chris effing Pincher if they weren't getting poorer by the month,, the forecasts were for them to get even poorer, and there was no prospect of a recovery?

    So, your solution to higher energy bills caused by imports of fossil fuels is for us to use more fossil fuels in the future?

    It's certainly a unique take.
    You seem to be ignoring the green levies (Up to 15% of bills?) that Britons pay for renewables that we hear on here are as cheap as chips.

    If Johnson had scrapped those subsidies, or even reduced them. he would still be PM now.
    The green levies are a drop in the ocean that are about 8% of bills now and that percentage has been falling rapidly. If he had scrapped them, it would barely have been noticed.

    And those levies aren't all to fund renewables either. A significant chunk of that fund goes to contribute towards paying for the bills of those who would struggle to pay for them otherwise, a form of welfare in other words.
    The point remains.

    If renewables are so cheap, then why do we have to subsidise them? Isn't Lord Deben rich enough?
    Well in part because we're committed to do so from before they were so cheap. Investments in older renewables, were made with a commitment to pay a certain tariff for years to come. New investments haven't had that for a while in many sectors. New solar investment won't get the feed in tariffs old ones did. New wind turbines don't get the fixed tariffs old ones did. We still need to pay what we committed to in the past and will do for the duration of those contracts, but that doesn't mean new investments are getting the same deal - new investments are economic on their own terms, so why would you avoid them now?

    Do you think old contracts that are committed to shouldn't be honoured? Or new ones, without subsidies, that are economically cheaper shouldn't be signed?
    No one who installs solar in the UK takes the feed in tariff anymore, because it pays only about 20% of retail electricity prices.
    I'm on £153.80 / MwH or £182.95 if you include the deemed element.
    When did you install your system?
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,039
    Weirdly it was covid that brought down Boris

    Without covid no Partygate. And no Dom Cummings eye test. Everything else he could have shrugged off
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,485
    Andy_JS said:

    What are the chances of Penny Mordaunt being in the top two? Maybe pretty high if Liz Truss's campaign fails to get off the ground.

    If Wallace isn't throwing his hat in the ring, fairly good I'd suggest.

    And if in the top two, her chances of winning are fairly good too.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,038
    HYUFD said:

    Right to life already has rankings out on how pro life or pro abortion potential Tory leadership candidates are.

    Baker, Wallace and Hunt most pro life, Mordaunt, Zahawi and Truss most pro abortion

    https://righttolife.org.uk/news/leadership-candidates-abortion

    Are they planning on making abortion compulsory?
  • eekeek Posts: 28,288
    kjh said:

    HYUFD said:

    Right to life already has rankings out on how pro life or pro abortion potential Tory leadership candidates are.

    Baker, Wallace and Hunt most pro life, Mordaunt, Zahawi and Truss most pro abortion

    https://righttolife.org.uk/news/leadership-candidates-abortion

    Always a free vote so not sure how this matters in the leadership race.
    Oh it does in HYUFD's eyes because he dreams of a world where he can control the rights and desires of others...
  • NorthofStokeNorthofStoke Posts: 1,758
    There are going to be a lot of Tory MPs who can be introduced as "ex-Minister".
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,038
    Applicant said:

    Applicant said:

    Applicant said:

    Applicant said:

    Tory MPs queueing up to deliver the eulogies after stabbing him in the back... The chutzpah is incredible.

    Someone here yesterday came up with the perfect epitaph for Boris:

    Got the big calls right, treated the small calls with utter contempt.
    Got the biggest call (Brexit) wrong. Treated the voters with utter contempt.
    Implementing the biggest democratic vote in British history is treating the voters with utter contempt? OK then...
    Lied to them to win the Brexit vote. Lied to them in 2019 about his deal. Lied to them about levelling up. Lied to them about 40 new hospitals. Lied in the house of commons. Lied to the cabinet. Yeah, he's treated the voters, actually our entire democratic system, with contempt. Good riddance.
    You said "Got the biggest call (Brexit) wrong". But it's the alternative to this (ignoring the vote and remaining in the EU anyway as advocated by SKS) is what would have been treating the voters with contempt.

    Boris's negatives far outweigh his positives - but he did have positives.
    Johnson's lies duringwinning the Brexit campaign was what put us in the dire position of either inflicting a costly policy error on the economy or damaging trust in our democracy. There was no good outcome from there, but it was Johnson who put us there. We should have implemented a soft Brexit but that was blocked by May's red lines and the Tories whipping against those options in the Commons. And Johnson doesn't even believe in Brexit, the whole thing is simply a testimony to his infinite vanity and ambition.
    FTFY. And again, it's not just that Leave won, but that Cameron had refused to allow planning for what a Leave vote would mean.

    This just looks like an attempt to evade responsibility, like we saw with some lefties last night. If you put Corbyn up against Boris, you have to take some of the blame for the public seeing the latter as the lesser of two evils. Similarly, if you spent 25 years stopping the public having any say on the European Project beginning with Maastricht, leaving only the nuclear button available to the public, you can't blame them for pushing it.
    I criticised Labour for choosing Corbyn as leader on here yesterday and repeatedly in the past. It was a disastrously stupid thing to do. I voted against him as leader twice.
    We gave the public every opportunity to vote against what you call the European Project, in the usual way of a parliamentary democracy. What was UKIP's top vote share in a Westminster election? Referenda are a poor way of doing politics, they attract every kind of protest vote and dishonest campaigning hence you end up with a vote for a Brexit that meant different things to different people, that nobody could implement in the way it was sold, which has made us all poorer, and which the public no longer support.
    It has been a total disaster, leaving us divided and weak. And Boris Johnson was the one who got it over the line. So no, I don't believe he got the big calls right.
    When were the public given an opportunity to vote against the European Project?

    Do you mean 2010 when the Lib Dems were elected on a manifesto promising a referendum, which they then opposed holding.

    Do you mean 2005 when the Lib Dems, Labour and Conservatives were all elected on a manifesto promising a referendum, which Labour then refused to hold?

    2015 was the third General Election in a row where MPs were elected on a promise to hold a referendum. It wasn't some novel idea invented by Cameron.
    Labour promised to hold a referendum on the European constitution. The European constitution was abandoned after other countries voted it down. So the UK didn't hold a referendum on it.
    Renamed. Not abandoned.
    I believe the preferred term is "rebranded".
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,492
    Commiserations to anyone who backed Starmer as next PM after Johnson.
  • rjkrjk Posts: 71
    If Johnson were to lose a vote of no confidence, under Conservative Party rules he would be barred from the subsequent leadership election. Since he has avoided a vote of no confidence by promising to resign, is there anything that would prevent him from standing in the leadership election? His hard core of MP loyalists isn't huge but he might start out with a larger vote than some of the other contenders.
  • SelebianSelebian Posts: 8,677
    rcs1000 said:

    Pulpstar said:

    rcs1000 said:

    MISTY said:

    MISTY said:

    rcs1000 said:

    MISTY said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Some pretty quick to dance on Boris’ grave.

    But key questions for the next Tory leader now are:

    🔥 Do they stick with ripping up NI protocol
    🔥 Do they carry on the Rwanda plan
    🔥 Do they continue with the party’s realignment & embrace of the Red Wall / levelling up? https://twitter.com/michelbarnier/status/1545015642176233472

    Far more important than any of that is,,,,,,,,do they continue to embrace the hard target of net zero by 2050 at all costs?

    Do you really think people would give a t*ss about Chris effing Pincher if they weren't getting poorer by the month,, the forecasts were for them to get even poorer, and there was no prospect of a recovery?

    So, your solution to higher energy bills caused by imports of fossil fuels is for us to use more fossil fuels in the future?

    It's certainly a unique take.
    You seem to be ignoring the green levies (Up to 15% of bills?) that Britons pay for renewables that we hear on here are as cheap as chips.

    If Johnson had scrapped those subsidies, or even reduced them. he would still be PM now.
    The green levies are a drop in the ocean that are about 8% of bills now and that percentage has been falling rapidly. If he had scrapped them, it would barely have been noticed.

    And those levies aren't all to fund renewables either. A significant chunk of that fund goes to contribute towards paying for the bills of those who would struggle to pay for them otherwise, a form of welfare in other words.
    The point remains.

    If renewables are so cheap, then why do we have to subsidise them? Isn't Lord Deben rich enough?
    Well in part because we're committed to do so from before they were so cheap. Investments in older renewables, were made with a commitment to pay a certain tariff for years to come. New investments haven't had that for a while in many sectors. New solar investment won't get the feed in tariffs old ones did. New wind turbines don't get the fixed tariffs old ones did. We still need to pay what we committed to in the past and will do for the duration of those contracts, but that doesn't mean new investments are getting the same deal - new investments are economic on their own terms, so why would you avoid them now?

    Do you think old contracts that are committed to shouldn't be honoured? Or new ones, without subsidies, that are economically cheaper shouldn't be signed?
    No one who installs solar in the UK takes the feed in tariff anymore, because it pays only about 20% of retail electricity prices.
    I'm on £153.80 / MwH or £182.95 if you include the deemed element.
    When did you install your system?
    Ours is similar, from memory. Previous owners installed in 2012 or 2013 IIRC, as part of new roof. We bought in 2015.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,708
    kjh said:

    HYUFD said:

    Right to life already has rankings out on how pro life or pro abortion potential Tory leadership candidates are.

    Baker, Wallace and Hunt most pro life, Mordaunt, Zahawi and Truss most pro abortion

    https://righttolife.org.uk/news/leadership-candidates-abortion

    Always a free vote so not sure how this matters in the leadership race.
    Depends what votes they allow on it
  • Nigel_ForemainNigel_Foremain Posts: 14,289
    kjh said:

    Leon said:

    rcs1000 said:

    MISTY said:

    Applicant said:

    Applicant said:

    Tory MPs queueing up to deliver the eulogies after stabbing him in the back... The chutzpah is incredible.

    Someone here yesterday came up with the perfect epitaph for Boris:

    Got the big calls right, treated the small calls with utter contempt.
    Got the biggest call (Brexit) wrong. Treated the voters with utter contempt.
    Implementing the biggest democratic vote in British history is treating the voters with utter contempt? OK then...
    Lied to them to win the Brexit vote. Lied to them in 2019 about his deal. Lied to them about levelling up. Lied to them about 40 new hospitals. Lied in the house of commons. Lied to the cabinet. Yeah, he's treated the voters, actually our entire democratic system, with contempt. Good riddance.
    You said "Got the biggest call (Brexit) wrong". But it's the alternative to this (ignoring the vote and remaining in the EU anyway as advocated by SKS) is what would have been treating the voters with contempt.

    Boris's negatives far outweigh his positives - but he did have positives.
    Look at Europe. Look at the dreadful f8icking state it is in. Betting the bank on Russian gas. At war with its farmers. Double digit inflation in some areas. Central bank able to do nothing for fear of screwing the weaker states.

    Why anyone wants to rejoin that, I will absolutely never know.
    Pretty much every country has inflation in the 5-12% range right now, with the exception of Russia (17%), Switzerland (3%) and Japan (3%) - https://tradingeconomics.com/country-list/inflation-rate

    The Eurozone and the US are both at 8.6%, while the UK is at 9.1%.

    Why?

    Because the cost of oil, gas and grain has gone through the roof.
    How come Switzerland isn't suffering the same inflationary pressures as the rest of europe?
    Do they rely on hydro and nuclear power and are not as dependent on gas as other countries ?
    Strength of the Swiss franc? It’s a very hard currency
    The franc hasn't changed that much versus sterling.

    But the fact that they get most of their electricity from hydro power, and they did have negative inflation in most of recent years, means that they have not as much extra inflation and added onto a lower base.
    When I first did business in Switzerland around 2001, 1 Swiss Franc was worth £0.4. It is now worth £0.86
    There was a big jump when it decoupled from the euro.
    I am not sure when that was, but looking at the graphs on XE it was still at around 0.4 in 2007 and the pound has declined in value relative to the Franc steadily since then
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 18,281

    WTF is Andrew Bridgen alluding to there? Boris being 'unwell'

    There's been rumours for a while that he struggles with long Covid then there's the rumours his mental health isn't well because he's not shagging as much.

    Apparently it didn't dawn on him that as PM, he just couldn't slip away quietly somewhere, he'd have a battalions of police officers with him.

    The lockdowns made it even more difficult, and the fact that Carrie's been permanently pregnant, means he's not got his usual amount of fun.

    Oh and money worries.
    There was a weird reference in his speech to his police protection officers being the only people who don't leak. Makes me wonder what they know that the rest of us don't.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 95,994
    HYUFD said:

    Right to life already has rankings out on how pro life or pro abortion potential Tory leadership candidates are.

    Baker, Wallace and Hunt most pro life, Mordaunt, Zahawi and Truss most pro abortion

    https://righttolife.org.uk/news/leadership-candidates-abortion

    A shame - i liked not knowing as it didn't matter in the UK
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,485
    Andy_JS said:

    Commiserations to anyone who backed Starmer as next PM after Johnson.

    Nah. Was never on.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,038
    Chris said:

    Farooq said:

    WTF is Andrew Bridgen alluding to there? Boris being 'unwell'

    There's been rumours for a while that he struggles with long Covid then there's the rumours his mental health isn't well because he's not shagging as much.

    Apparently it didn't dawn on him that as PM, he just couldn't slip away quietly somewhere, he'd have a battalions of police officers with him.

    The lockdowns made it even more difficult, and the fact that Carrie's been permanently pregnant, means he's not got his usual amount of fun.

    Oh and money worries.
    I bet he is kicking himself he didn't just step down earlier under the guise of long covid.
    No he isn't, he's planning his revenge. Pay attention.
    Right now he's probably looking for a lab that can breed a virus-resistant form of SARS-2, so he can flip from a "Living with COVID" narrative to an "Only Boris can save you from SARS-3" narrative.
    a "virus-resistant form"?
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 70,936
    Leon said:

    Guardian

    “Olexander Scherba, Ukraine’s former ambassador to Austria, thanked Johnson on Twitter. “Many of my friends hated Boris Johnson for his role in Brexit. Quite frankly, I disliked him for that too. But my God, he did the right thing about Ukraine. And I’m not sure he would have been able to do it if the UK were still in the EU. Anyways, thank you, Boris!” he wrote

    Zelenskiy’s office has made no secret of its fondness for Johnson, repeatedly praising him as an example to other world leaders.”

    A salutary example in several ways...
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,507
    rcs1000 said:

    HYUFD said:

    Right to life already has rankings out on how pro life or pro abortion potential Tory leadership candidates are.

    Baker, Wallace and Hunt most pro life, Mordaunt, Zahawi and Truss most pro abortion

    https://righttolife.org.uk/news/leadership-candidates-abortion

    Are they planning on making abortion compulsory?
    Fair play to Nadine Dorries, she does do nuance.

    A cabinet minister has said that the abortion limit in the UK should be brought down by a month but the rule that two doctors must approve the procedure should be abolished.

    Nadine Dorries, the culture secretary, said the 24-week rule — the cut-off point for when the majority of women can have an abortion — was “too high”, suggesting that “20 weeks is where it should be”.

    However, she insisted she was pro-choice and that she would not push for the rules to be changed.

    In an interview with Times Radio due to air tomorrow, Dorries, 65, said: “Any woman who wants an abortion should just be able to have one.”

    Her comments come after the Roe v Wade ruling was overturned in the United States, removing the constitutional right to the procedure. Many states in the country have since imposed restrictions on abortion.


    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/nadine-dorries-bring-down-abortion-time-limit-vtc597dzz
  • Daveyboy1961Daveyboy1961 Posts: 3,883
    Farooq said:

    Here's another fruitloop

    https://twitter.com/tompeck/status/1545026053642473472

    What a fucking binfire

    Who was that?
  • UnpopularUnpopular Posts: 881
    Unpopular said:

    HYUFD said:

    Unpopular said:

    Watching NBC from the US... Nothing about Boris on this side of the pond that I've seen. Seems strange to me that the implosion of the Government of the 5th/6th/7th largest economy hasn't been mentioned. Am I missing something?

    It is the main news on the ABC, Fox news websites and CNN even if Americans are normally focused on their own affairs

    https://abcnews.go.com/
    https://www.foxnews.com/
    https://edition.cnn.com/

    In any case the government has no longer imploded, the PM gas resigned and the Tory party will elect a new leader who will in turn replace them as PM
    Ah, not a peep about it on the box so far. I have a sneaking suspicion that maybe I'm not watching the main news channel or something. Very odd
    It's on now. I guess they were just going through the morning fluff pieces.
  • Nigel_ForemainNigel_Foremain Posts: 14,289
    Leon said:

    Guardian

    “Olexander Scherba, Ukraine’s former ambassador to Austria, thanked Johnson on Twitter. “Many of my friends hated Boris Johnson for his role in Brexit. Quite frankly, I disliked him for that too. But my God, he did the right thing about Ukraine. And I’m not sure he would have been able to do it if the UK were still in the EU. Anyways, thank you, Boris!” he wrote

    Zelenskiy’s office has made no secret of its fondness for Johnson, repeatedly praising him as an example to other world leaders.”

    Total bollocks, of course he could have done it if still in EU. We were in EU during the Falklands and both Gulf Wars, The Balkans etc. The EU did not ever prevent us from militarily supporting whom we wished. Any British PM would most likely have done the same (except Corbyn perhaps). Sad that you are still desperately trying to apologise for the twat.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,507

    Farooq said:

    Here's another fruitloop

    https://twitter.com/tompeck/status/1545026053642473472

    What a fucking binfire

    Who was that?
    Andrea Jenkyns.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,485
    rjk said:

    If Johnson were to lose a vote of no confidence, under Conservative Party rules he would be barred from the subsequent leadership election. Since he has avoided a vote of no confidence by promising to resign, is there anything that would prevent him from standing in the leadership election? His hard core of MP loyalists isn't huge but he might start out with a larger vote than some of the other contenders.

    Getting the minimum threshold would stop him.

    The ignominy of not even getting on the ballot paper would be crushing. And let's face it, is there a double-figure number of Conservative MPs who'd want him back as PM? Doubtful.

    Very doubtful. He's yesterday's man.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 28,354
    Andy_JS said:

    What are the chances of Penny Mordaunt being in the top two? Maybe pretty high if Liz Truss's campaign fails to get off the ground.

    I'm interested to see who David Davis supports. He's the arch networker in the Parliamentary Party. Also interested to see who Lord Frost supports. I think Penny will need someone powerful on her side, like Airey Neave was for Mrs. T.
This discussion has been closed.