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17% say BREXIT’s made life better – 45% say worse – politicalbetting.com

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  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 32,739
    Tory MPs furious at Chris Pincher (so far) keeping the party whip.

    One says: "They can't see difference between this and the Neil Parish situation in terms of consequences."

    Another adds: "He should never have been appointed to that role - a time bomb waiting to go off."

    https://twitter.com/KevinASchofield/status/1542773497654648833
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 91,394

    Is there a site that is tracking passport waiting times for UK passport holders anywhere?

    PB.com it seems.
  • SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 15,241
    Scott_xP said:

    The @Conservatives cabinet minister @Simonhartmp says the Chief Whip will be having 'conversations' about Chris Pincher's alleged behaviour but confirms to @BBCr4today as things stand he has retained the Conservative whip. He says the victims should be 'uppermost in our minds' https://twitter.com/bbcbreakfast/status/1542742067864109057

    Everyone in Westminster knows Pincher is going to end up having the whip withdrawn today. Except for the Prime Minister and the Chief Whip. Again, who is actually running the Tory party.
    https://twitter.com/DPJHodges/status/1542771111020171265

    "He says the victims should be 'uppermost in our minds'"

    By "victims" the Chief Whip clearly means "me and the PM"
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 14,087

    For me the honest answer I'd have to give is that Brexit has neither made "daily life" better or worse, its pretty indifferent to be honest.

    But that wasn't the point of Brexit.

    Wtf was the point then?

    I am waiting on essential personal medical supplies which have now been delayed for the first time ever. They are made in Germany. Four weeks late and counting.

    To be fair the UK distributor I use, who have been excellent all the time I have used them, are being rather reticent about the reason so we will have to see how it pans out and what they label as the reason. They have been studiously neutral about Brexit in all their comms over the past 6 or 7 years, which is fair enough.

    Fortunately with all the uncertainty after the Brexit vote, I decided to build up and keep a couple of months' extra stock, so I am ok for a few weeks yet.

    I guess that could be deemed an indirect benefit of Brexit?

    Worrying though.
    The point of Brexit was to allow Boris Johnson to become Prime Minister and do whatever he damn well liked.

    So job done, really.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,842
    Scott_xP said:

    Tory MPs furious at Chris Pincher (so far) keeping the party whip.

    One says: "They can't see difference between this and the Neil Parish situation in terms of consequences."

    Another adds: "He should never have been appointed to that role - a time bomb waiting to go off."

    https://twitter.com/KevinASchofield/status/1542773497654648833

    It's interesting that the Tories view sexual assault as less bad than watching pornography. Not a value judgement I'd be comfortable with.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,019
    Jonathan said:

    Morning all! With respect to the Brexit making people's lives better / worse and what does it matter now - it matters.

    Quite simply comments like "nobody voted to make their daily lives better" are utterly ignorant of what so many red wall voters expected.

    So it is a serious problem for the government that things have got worse and not better for many of these voters. Yes Covid and Ukraine etc etc but we are talking voters barely engaged with politics. They don't know or care about such details.

    Brexit has failed because the NHS has got worse and prices have gone up and wages haven't. It's that simple. That we can't rejoin any time soon doesn't matter, people won't forget about it and move on. What they will do is hold their new Tory MPs to account...

    Brexit is pretty special in that it hasn’t yet realised any benefit promised or otherwise. The rewriting of history to say that Brexit was never intended to yield benefits doesn’t really wash.
    That simply isn't true.

    We have a more sustainable agricultural and marine conservation policy now, public concern about immigration has a major issue has been killed off, we had a much better Covid vaccine programme, we've been able to adopt a more agile and flexible foreign policy on Ukraine with a firmer line, we've avoided any further drives to political union from Juncker or Von Der Leyen, or directives from Brussels that might target the City.

    Personally, I take it as a huge relief that I don't have to worry about what nonsense comes out of the mouths of the EU Commission, or the integrationist political agenda for the European Council every 6 months, because it doesn't affect me anymore.
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 14,878
    edited July 2022

    Morning all! With respect to the Brexit making people's lives better / worse and what does it matter now - it matters.

    Quite simply comments like "nobody voted to make their daily lives better" are utterly ignorant of what so many red wall voters expected.

    So it is a serious problem for the government that things have got worse and not better for many of these voters. Yes Covid and Ukraine etc etc but we are talking voters barely engaged with politics. They don't know or care about such details.

    Brexit has failed because the NHS has got worse and prices have gone up and wages haven't. It's that simple. That we can't rejoin any time soon doesn't matter, people won't forget about it and move on. What they will do is hold their new Tory MPs to account...

    "Brexit has failed because the NHS has got worse and prices have gone up and wages haven't."
    You've missed the biggest reasons for the NHS getting worse? 1) Covid and 2) 12 years underfunding leaving a capacity that couldn't cope with 1).

    I disagree with wages haven't gone up. They clearly are going up. See scottish rail workers, soon rUK rail, lots in the private sector, lots of people finding better jobs.

    And lastly, paying for covid has contributed to the CoL and so has the Russian war.

    Not everything is down to Brexit, which you voted for, and I did not.
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 20,454
    Scott_xP said:

    Tory MPs furious at Chris Pincher (so far) keeping the party whip.

    One says: "They can't see difference between this and the Neil Parish situation in terms of consequences."

    Another adds: "He should never have been appointed to that role - a time bomb waiting to go off."

    https://twitter.com/KevinASchofield/status/1542773497654648833

    I suggest anonymous briefings about furious MPs should be taken with a pinch of salt.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 32,739
    A Tory MP told me precisely this would happen, months ago. And that it would play out, exactly as it is currently playing out. The only bit they got wrong was that they thought it might be the thing that got us to 54 VONC letters; instead it happened beforehand
    https://twitter.com/aljwhite/status/1542774162619613184
    https://twitter.com/DPJHodges/status/1542771111020171265
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 60,002

    Morning all! With respect to the Brexit making people's lives better / worse and what does it matter now - it matters.

    Quite simply comments like "nobody voted to make their daily lives better" are utterly ignorant of what so many red wall voters expected.

    So it is a serious problem for the government that things have got worse and not better for many of these voters. Yes Covid and Ukraine etc etc but we are talking voters barely engaged with politics. They don't know or care about such details.

    Brexit has failed because the NHS has got worse and prices have gone up and wages haven't. It's that simple. That we can't rejoin any time soon doesn't matter, people won't forget about it and move on. What they will do is hold their new Tory MPs to account...

    Good morning

    The public are angry, frightened and frankly scared and the government simply have no answer to the serious problems it is facing and have toxic Johnson promising much and not delivering

    It does seem the public expect the government to assuage the crisis but do not care or understand that the government can only do that with their taxes which they do not want to pay or see rise

    I really am of the opinion the conservatives are heading out of office, but unfortunately the public will soon find out the alternatives are not any better and most are going to be poorer

    As I reported yesterday the world economies have seen 13 trillion dollars wiped off share values, the worst ever start to a year and seeing falling pension investments, and by the way nothing to do with brexit

    My wife and I are fortunate in so many ways that whatever the make up of the next government it is unlikely to affect us, but I am genuinely sorry for so many who are really suffering and frankly with no end in sight
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 113,969
    edited July 2022
    Ipsos

    Labour is on 41 per cent, up two points, the Conservatives 30 per cent, down three points, and the Liberal Democrats up three to 15 per cent.

    Just 21 per cent of adults say the Conservatives are “fit to govern”, down from 34 per cent in September and the lowest score for ten years, highlighting the party’s post-by-election woes, rather than Labour on the march.

    Sir Keir’s party gets the backing of just 33 per cent as “fit to govern”, up from 27 per cent in September, but below the 38 per cent in November 2017 under Jeremy Corbyn and 40 per cent in April 2015 under Ed Miliband.

    Two thirds of adults say Conservatives are divided, up from 44 per cent and the worst since November 2017, though this may not be suprising given that just weeks earlier 148 MPs voted against Mr Johnson in a confidence vote which he won with the backing of 211.

    Just under half, 49 per cent, say the Tories are out of date, up from 39 per cent in September, while those who regard them as “extreme” is up from 22 per cent to 30 per cent.

    Just 16 per cent say the Tories have a good team of leaders, also a ten-year low which reflects on the broader Cabinet.

    Only 12 per cent believe the Conservatives keep their promises, similar to 14 per cent in September, and also a ten-year low.

    Labour has improved on some measures and is ahead of the Tories on most of them including understanding the problems facing Britain, looking after the interests of people like me, and being concerned about people in real need in the country.

    However, overall it is not showing the forward momentum under Sir Keir which many of its MPs are growing increasingly impatient to see or breaking out of the range on party image it has had since 2015.

    Just over a quarter, 26 per cent, say it has a good team of leaders, up from 20 per cent in September but again worse or no better than the peaks under Mr Corbyn and Mr Miliband.

    Half of adults do say it is concerned about people in real need in Britain, but this is significantly lower than under Mr Corbyn.

    However, on keeping promises it is up five points to 23 per cent since September, understanding Britain’s problems up six to 45 per cent, and on being divided it is down nine points to 47 per cent, its lowest since 2015, a possible sign of how the Labour Left has been sidelined.



    https://www.standard.co.uk/news/politics/boris-johnson-early-general-election-tory-conservative-party-chris-pincher-b1009570.html
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 91,394
    Scott_xP said:

    Tory MPs furious at Chris Pincher (so far) keeping the party whip.

    One says: "They can't see difference between this and the Neil Parish situation in terms of consequences."

    Another adds: "He should never have been appointed to that role - a time bomb waiting to go off."

    https://twitter.com/KevinASchofield/status/1542773497654648833

    Parish was an idiot whose actions were offensive and disrespectful but otherwise not really harmful. Pincher appears to have behaved far worse.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 32,739

    We have a more sustainable agricultural and marine conservation policy now

    You mean we stopped fishing cos we can't sell the catch anymore
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,019

    kjh said:

    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    Late to the thread header but having just come back from France (flew out train back) travelling to the EU (I have only travelled to France and Greece) is unambiguously worse.

    The posters at the Gare du Nord reminding people of maximum alcohol, etc volume allowed to be brought back to the UK but one minor irritating element.

    I didn't notice any difference. Except my passport gets stamped, which I like.

    The worst bit is always coming back into the UK, when you have to queue up to go through full passport control, and um.. that applies to British citizens who live here, and always did.
    I would say it took about an hour plus extra each way. And so does every single person I have spoken to about it. Except you.
    That's ridiculous.

    I got through passport control in about 12 minutes flying into Bulgaria on 19th June. I'm flying back to the UK tomorrow and will let you know the result but why would it be an hour extra coming *home*?

    That makes no sense at all.
    The process at the GdN from France and queues round the block at LHR otherwise.
    Maybe I'm on a minor route but I also flew to Geneva in March and that wasn't my experience then either.

    I haven't taken the train to be fair. I might do so next time though because my worst experience at Geneva was waiting 90 minutes in a long snaking queue to check-in along with hundreds of other skiers. They only had 4 desks open on a Sunday.

    Horrible.
    I hate flying because of the hassle. I travelled quite a bit during the pandemic and was spoilt by how easy it was. Travel to Lisbon was a shock as it brought us back down to earth about how awful it is.

    In airports which have a lot of non-EU flights (Brazil and Lusophone Africa for Lisbon), the the risk will always be long passport queues for non-EU citizens. It's the same when you fly to the US. You could be lucky and be on a flight that lands before the one from Mexico or Colombia, or you could be in a queue for hours.

    The simple solution is for the UK and EU to agree a deal that allows respective citizens unlimited stays, but with no right of residency, access to medical treatment or work. It really can't be beyond the wit of man to sort this out.

    Yes, I'd be supportive of that.
  • kjhkjh Posts: 10,458

    kjh said:

    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    Late to the thread header but having just come back from France (flew out train back) travelling to the EU (I have only travelled to France and Greece) is unambiguously worse.

    The posters at the Gare du Nord reminding people of maximum alcohol, etc volume allowed to be brought back to the UK but one minor irritating element.

    I didn't notice any difference. Except my passport gets stamped, which I like.

    The worst bit is always coming back into the UK, when you have to queue up to go through full passport control, and um.. that applies to British citizens who live here, and always did.
    I would say it took about an hour plus extra each way. And so does every single person I have spoken to about it. Except you.
    That's ridiculous.

    I got through passport control in about 12 minutes flying into Bulgaria on 19th June. I'm flying back to the UK tomorrow and will let you know the result but why would it be an hour extra coming *home*?

    That makes no sense at all.
    The process at the GdN from France and queues round the block at LHR otherwise.
    Maybe I'm on a minor route but I also flew to Geneva in March and that wasn't my experience then either.

    I haven't taken the train to be fair. I might do so next time though because my worst experience at Geneva was waiting 90 minutes in a long snaking queue to check-in along with hundreds of other skiers. They only had 4 desks open on a Sunday.

    Horrible.
    I hate flying because of the hassle. I travelled quite a bit during the pandemic and was spoilt by how easy it was. Travel to Lisbon was a shock as it brought us back down to earth about how awful it is.
    I think I'd be tempted by taking the ferry from Portsmouth to Bilbao if I was holidaying in northern/central Spain now, or the train.

    I've done Eurostar to Paris before and then the sleeper to Madrid, followed by a high speed train to Malaga for a wedding in the Costa de Sol.

    It was quite delightful.
    Agree re ferry from Portsmouth. Done so for my cycling trips in France. Also taken bikes on Eurostar. Used to enjoy Eurostar, but it's becoming more like flying now. They aren't good with bikes either.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 39,146
    Nigelb said:

    Foxy said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Foxy said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Foxy said:

    It isn't yet clear quite what happened in this sexual assault, but for a whip to be acting like this does show that we still have a long way to go in tackling entrenched abuses of power in Westminster, in particular of sexual abuse.

    That's very likely bollocks. He seems to have got drunk and gropey in the Carlton Club. It's a odd feature of earnest leftydom to insist that sex is not really about sex, rapists aren't really after sex but reinforcing the patriarchal phallocratic power structure etc.
    Well he does have form, and many of the cases being investigated are about abuse of patriarchal power structures.
    Why can't they just be about what they look as if they are about without the cod sociology overlay?
    We're the Catholic priests, children's homes, Muslim grooming gangs, Hollywood and TV light entertainment sex scandals etc purely about sex, or did they reveal a lot about how power was used and abused in those sub-cultures?
    It’s an irritating feature of autocorrect that it doesn’t accept a sentence can begin with ‘were’.
    Indeed. For a moment one really wondered what Foxy had been up to.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,019
    kjh said:

    For me the honest answer I'd have to give is that Brexit has neither made "daily life" better or worse, its pretty indifferent to be honest.

    But that wasn't the point of Brexit.

    I assume you don't travel. Queues, pets, 90 day limit. All impact me, friends and family badly. 3 hour queue in Lisbon, cancelled trip to France as couldn't get dog documents in time, have to plan travelling with a dog weeks/months in advance, 90 day limit completely buggered two friends. One camped in motorhome on son's drive having had to return from EU, another having to go thru hoops re his villa in Portugal and travel limited.
    But, these are the problems of a very lucky few.

    Most people only have 25 days holiday a year and the 90 day limit will never affect them.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 91,394

    Ipsos

    Labour is on 41 per cent, up two points, the Conservatives 30 per cent, down three points, and the Liberal Democrats up three to 15 per cent.

    Just 21 per cent of adults say the Conservatives are “fit to govern”, down from 34 per cent in September and the lowest score for ten years, highlighting the party’s post-by-election woes, rather than Labour on the march.

    Sir Keir’s party gets the backing of just 33 per cent as “fit to govern”, up from 27 per cent in September, but below the 38 per cent in November 2017 under Jeremy Corbyn and 40 per cent in April 2015 under Ed Miliband.



    https://www.standard.co.uk/news/politics/boris-johnson-early-general-election-tory-conservative-party-chris-pincher-b1009570.html

    Mid term blues getting pretty bad. Question is can it be reversed? Theres opportunity to do so given some of the Labour figures, but to put it mildly is Boris the person to do it?
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 32,739
    kle4 said:

    Parish was an idiot whose actions were offensive and disrespectful but otherwise not really harmful. Pincher appears to have behaved far worse.

    The difference seems to be Pincher supported BoZo
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 39,146
    Pulpstar said:

    Mr. Pulpstar, sorry to hear that. Hope it can be sorted out.

    Well if it can't be I'll remaind my brexit voting colleagues of it if they ask me why's there no job bonus this year.
    Very nice new verb!
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 32,739
    kle4 said:

    Mid term blues getting pretty bad. Question is can it be reversed? Theres opportunity to do so given some of the Labour figures, but to put it mildly is Boris the person to do it?

    Just 21% of adults say Tories “fit to govern”, down from 34% in Sept and lowest for 10 years, @Ipsos poll. Labour gets backing of just 33% as “fit to govern”, up from 27% in Sept, but below 38% in Nov 2017 under Corbyn and 40% in April 2015 Miliband. https://www.standard.co.uk/news/politics/boris-johnson-early-general-election-tory-conservative-party-chris-pincher-b1009570.html
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,019
    Jonathan said:

    For me the honest answer I'd have to give is that Brexit has neither made "daily life" better or worse, its pretty indifferent to be honest.

    But that wasn't the point of Brexit.

    Brexit is an incremental burn of rising costs and bureaucracy. The costs of which slowly add up
    I think Brexit is maybe causing 20% of our challenges at the moment - it's churlish to say it's zero, we all knew it would come with border friction costs - the rest is Covid, global supply chain issues, Ukraine and domestic policy, but it gets blamed for 150% of our problems because Brits love whinging and an easy scapegoat.

    If we didn't have Brexit we'd need another one, and that would probably be the EU.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 31,281

    kjh said:

    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    Late to the thread header but having just come back from France (flew out train back) travelling to the EU (I have only travelled to France and Greece) is unambiguously worse.

    The posters at the Gare du Nord reminding people of maximum alcohol, etc volume allowed to be brought back to the UK but one minor irritating element.

    I didn't notice any difference. Except my passport gets stamped, which I like.

    The worst bit is always coming back into the UK, when you have to queue up to go through full passport control, and um.. that applies to British citizens who live here, and always did.
    I would say it took about an hour plus extra each way. And so does every single person I have spoken to about it. Except you.
    That's ridiculous.

    I got through passport control in about 12 minutes flying into Bulgaria on 19th June. I'm flying back to the UK tomorrow and will let you know the result but why would it be an hour extra coming *home*?

    That makes no sense at all.
    The process at the GdN from France and queues round the block at LHR otherwise.
    Maybe I'm on a minor route but I also flew to Geneva in March and that wasn't my experience then either.

    I haven't taken the train to be fair. I might do so next time though because my worst experience at Geneva was waiting 90 minutes in a long snaking queue to check-in along with hundreds of other skiers. They only had 4 desks open on a Sunday.

    Horrible.
    I hate flying because of the hassle. I travelled quite a bit during the pandemic and was spoilt by how easy it was. Travel to Lisbon was a shock as it brought us back down to earth about how awful it is.
    I think I'd be tempted by taking the ferry from Portsmouth to Bilbao if I was holidaying in northern/central Spain now, or the train.

    I've done Eurostar to Paris before and then the sleeper to Madrid, followed by a high speed train to Malaga for a wedding in the Costa de Sol.

    It was quite delightful.

    I am doing the ferry from Plymouth to Santander next week. It's a great way to do it - if the Bay of Biscay behaves.

    Brittany Ferries a la carte restaurant is a great way to start a holiday.
  • kjh said:

    For me the honest answer I'd have to give is that Brexit has neither made "daily life" better or worse, its pretty indifferent to be honest.

    But that wasn't the point of Brexit.

    I assume you don't travel. Queues, pets, 90 day limit. All impact me, friends and family badly. 3 hour queue in Lisbon, cancelled trip to France as couldn't get dog documents in time, have to plan travelling with a dog weeks/months in advance, 90 day limit completely buggered two friends. One camped in motorhome on son's drive having had to return from EU, another having to go thru hoops re his villa in Portugal and travel limited.
    In daily life I don't travel daily, no.

    I haven't been abroad in a few years due to COVID restrictions but before then typically have one trip abroad per annum, and only a minority of those destinations have been in the EFTA anyway.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 31,718
    Good morning all. Somewhat later than usual due to having lots of visitors!
    Younger son and family arrived from Thailand via the Gulf yesterday and had no problem whatsoever with entry at Gatwick.

    I seem to recall something on the side of a bus about more money for the NHS but to be fair Covid has taken some of it.
  • CiceroCicero Posts: 2,181

    Scott_xP said:

    Where do they find these people to become tory MPs?

    Is there a special unit dedicated to tracking down people with "problems" and persuading them they should apply to be a MP?

    There were dozens of exemplary Tory MPS expelled by BoZo for being rational and competent.

    He replaced them with sycophants and zealots, many of whom also appear to be in his own image (unfit for office of any kind)
    I know you're desperate to blame all the world's ills on "BoZo" but considering that Pincher has been an MP since 2010, I'm not sure you can blame the fact he's an MP on "BoZo".
    The fact that he was deputy chief whip is entirely the fault of "Bozo". The job is appointed solely by the Prime Minister. Given that we now know Mr. Pincher has both a drinking and a lechery problem, and that the PM was clearly aware of this, it is equally clear that appointing and promoting the Tamworth MP was a severe error of judgement. The problem is that most of Johnson's decisions seem to rely on very poor judgement indeed.
  • eekeek Posts: 24,797

    Morning all! With respect to the Brexit making people's lives better / worse and what does it matter now - it matters.

    Quite simply comments like "nobody voted to make their daily lives better" are utterly ignorant of what so many red wall voters expected.

    So it is a serious problem for the government that things have got worse and not better for many of these voters. Yes Covid and Ukraine etc etc but we are talking voters barely engaged with politics. They don't know or care about such details.

    Brexit has failed because the NHS has got worse and prices have gone up and wages haven't. It's that simple. That we can't rejoin any time soon doesn't matter, people won't forget about it and move on. What they will do is hold their new Tory MPs to account...

    Good morning

    The public are angry, frightened and frankly scared and the government simply have no answer to the serious problems it is facing and have toxic Johnson promising much and not delivering

    It does seem the public expect the government to assuage the crisis but do not care or understand that the government can only do that with their taxes which they do not want to pay or see rise

    I really am of the opinion the conservatives are heading out of office, but unfortunately the public will soon find out the alternatives are not any better and most are going to be poorer

    As I reported yesterday the world economies have seen 13 trillion dollars wiped off share values, the worst ever start to a year and seeing falling pension investments, and by the way nothing to do with brexit

    My wife and I are fortunate in so many ways that whatever the make up of the next government it is unlikely to affect us, but I am genuinely sorry for so many who are really suffering and frankly with no end in sight
    What do you mean Bozo hasn't got ideas.

    To fight inflation he's going to reduce VAT for a bit. A 2.5% saving will knock 0.8% off the inflation rate - reducing it to 10.2% from 11%.

    As VAT is a regressive tax it won't even help the people in direst need but hey it's a solution (to a completely different problem that the Government needs to solve).
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 40,950

    For me the honest answer I'd have to give is that Brexit has neither made "daily life" better or worse, its pretty indifferent to be honest.

    But that wasn't the point of Brexit.

    As I said pre-and post-Brexit it is making people poorer but it is the same as 2p on beer and fags in the budget in that no one really notices and you have proven that.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,068
    edited July 2022
    Not so much passport times that are bothering me.

    I am going to a meeting in Hamburg this autumn, booked with Easyjet out of Manchester. Got notified last week that the flight is now cancelled, so rebooked with Ryanair out of Stanstead. Yesterday that too was cancelled, so rebooking again...

    The prospect of actually getting to a passport queue is looking a distant dream...
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 39,146
    edited July 2022
    DavidL said:

    DougSeal said:
    I did wonder if the sensible course for her was not to talk about things she doesn't know about. But being a Secretary of State and a Trappist monk at the same time is a tricky operation, well beyond her intellect.
    Bit difficult for *any* female, nay impossible. However silent they might be.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 40,950
    edited July 2022
    Foxy said:

    TOPPING said:

    Foxy said:

    TOPPING said:

    Just spent five minutes on Twitter, as I like to see what tim is saying.

    Dear god reading some typical posts (tweets from Angela Rayner and Sue Perkins were on my timeline for some reason) from the left and some remainers is enough to turn any sensible person into a rabid and frothing committed Conservative voter.

    That is how Tories always justify voting for the priapic clown, and his coterie of cronies.
    Well I justified voting for him in 2019 because of the alternative.

    I would like not to have that problem next time round.
    Vote Conservative to keep the oiks out of the opera!
    Vote Conservative to keep the rabid anti-semite far left activist out of Downing Street but yes if it makes you feel better opera, posho, elite.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,614

    kjh said:

    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    Late to the thread header but having just come back from France (flew out train back) travelling to the EU (I have only travelled to France and Greece) is unambiguously worse.

    The posters at the Gare du Nord reminding people of maximum alcohol, etc volume allowed to be brought back to the UK but one minor irritating element.

    I didn't notice any difference. Except my passport gets stamped, which I like.

    The worst bit is always coming back into the UK, when you have to queue up to go through full passport control, and um.. that applies to British citizens who live here, and always did.
    I would say it took about an hour plus extra each way. And so does every single person I have spoken to about it. Except you.
    That's ridiculous.

    I got through passport control in about 12 minutes flying into Bulgaria on 19th June. I'm flying back to the UK tomorrow and will let you know the result but why would it be an hour extra coming *home*?

    That makes no sense at all.
    The process at the GdN from France and queues round the block at LHR otherwise.
    Maybe I'm on a minor route but I also flew to Geneva in March and that wasn't my experience then either.

    I haven't taken the train to be fair. I might do so next time though because my worst experience at Geneva was waiting 90 minutes in a long snaking queue to check-in along with hundreds of other skiers. They only had 4 desks open on a Sunday.

    Horrible.
    I hate flying because of the hassle. I travelled quite a bit during the pandemic and was spoilt by how easy it was. Travel to Lisbon was a shock as it brought us back down to earth about how awful it is.

    In airports which have a lot of non-EU flights (Brazil and Lusophone Africa for Lisbon), the the risk will always be long passport queues for non-EU citizens. It's the same when you fly to the US. You could be lucky and be on a flight that lands before the one from Mexico or Colombia, or you could be in a queue for hours.

    The simple solution is for the UK and EU to agree a deal that allows respective citizens unlimited stays, but with no right of residency, access to medical treatment or work. It really can't be beyond the wit of man to sort this out.

    IIRC the UK side proposed a reciprocal deal on visiting rights to the Schengen zone, but it was rejected by the EU.

    As far as Macron is concerned, making the Brits queue up for hours is by design. Border arrangements are devolved to the member states, not an EU competence. Those states that want to attract British tourists and business people (Netherlands, Portugal, Spanish islands) have the choice to either make things easy, or act as a trade barrier to their own economy.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,842
    eek said:

    Morning all! With respect to the Brexit making people's lives better / worse and what does it matter now - it matters.

    Quite simply comments like "nobody voted to make their daily lives better" are utterly ignorant of what so many red wall voters expected.

    So it is a serious problem for the government that things have got worse and not better for many of these voters. Yes Covid and Ukraine etc etc but we are talking voters barely engaged with politics. They don't know or care about such details.

    Brexit has failed because the NHS has got worse and prices have gone up and wages haven't. It's that simple. That we can't rejoin any time soon doesn't matter, people won't forget about it and move on. What they will do is hold their new Tory MPs to account...

    Good morning

    The public are angry, frightened and frankly scared and the government simply have no answer to the serious problems it is facing and have toxic Johnson promising much and not delivering

    It does seem the public expect the government to assuage the crisis but do not care or understand that the government can only do that with their taxes which they do not want to pay or see rise

    I really am of the opinion the conservatives are heading out of office, but unfortunately the public will soon find out the alternatives are not any better and most are going to be poorer

    As I reported yesterday the world economies have seen 13 trillion dollars wiped off share values, the worst ever start to a year and seeing falling pension investments, and by the way nothing to do with brexit

    My wife and I are fortunate in so many ways that whatever the make up of the next government it is unlikely to affect us, but I am genuinely sorry for so many who are really suffering and frankly with no end in sight
    What do you mean Bozo hasn't got ideas.

    To fight inflation he's going to reduce VAT for a bit. A 2.5% saving will knock 0.8% off the inflation rate - reducing it to 10.2% from 11%.

    As VAT is a regressive tax it won't even help the people in direst need but hey it's a solution (to a completely different problem that the Government needs to solve).
    Reduction of a regressive tax must be by default progressive ?

    It can't not be.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,019
    Scott_xP said:

    We have a more sustainable agricultural and marine conservation policy now

    You mean we stopped fishing cos we can't sell the catch anymore
    No, I think Gove has done a great job in DEFRA with the new agricultural subsidy regime focussed on conservation, which extends to marine areas off our shores as well.

    The bit we're still a bit shit at is rivers where we tolerate very poor levels of pollution and cleanliness and I'd like more action on clean air in cities too.
  • kjhkjh Posts: 10,458

    kjh said:

    For me the honest answer I'd have to give is that Brexit has neither made "daily life" better or worse, its pretty indifferent to be honest.

    But that wasn't the point of Brexit.

    I assume you don't travel. Queues, pets, 90 day limit. All impact me, friends and family badly. 3 hour queue in Lisbon, cancelled trip to France as couldn't get dog documents in time, have to plan travelling with a dog weeks/months in advance, 90 day limit completely buggered two friends. One camped in motorhome on son's drive having had to return from EU, another having to go thru hoops re his villa in Portugal and travel limited.
    But, these are the problems of a very lucky few.

    Most people only have 25 days holiday a year and the 90 day limit will never affect them.
    True. Although the queues affect everyone and the pet issue affects anyone with a dog. Also it isn't just the wealthy, but many retired people (ironic really as many voted leave). In my friends case he is not wealthy. He sold his home and bought a motorhome to tour Europe for a few years.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 31,281

    Morning all! With respect to the Brexit making people's lives better / worse and what does it matter now - it matters.

    Quite simply comments like "nobody voted to make their daily lives better" are utterly ignorant of what so many red wall voters expected.

    So it is a serious problem for the government that things have got worse and not better for many of these voters. Yes Covid and Ukraine etc etc but we are talking voters barely engaged with politics. They don't know or care about such details.

    Brexit has failed because the NHS has got worse and prices have gone up and wages haven't. It's that simple. That we can't rejoin any time soon doesn't matter, people won't forget about it and move on. What they will do is hold their new Tory MPs to account...

    Good morning

    The public are angry, frightened and frankly scared and the government simply have no answer to the serious problems it is facing and have toxic Johnson promising much and not delivering

    It does seem the public expect the government to assuage the crisis but do not care or understand that the government can only do that with their taxes which they do not want to pay or see rise

    I really am of the opinion the conservatives are heading out of office, but unfortunately the public will soon find out the alternatives are not any better and most are going to be poorer

    As I reported yesterday the world economies have seen 13 trillion dollars wiped off share values, the worst ever start to a year and seeing falling pension investments, and by the way nothing to do with brexit

    My wife and I are fortunate in so many ways that whatever the make up of the next government it is unlikely to affect us, but I am genuinely sorry for so many who are really suffering and frankly with no end in sight
    Those of us who are comfortably off should be prepared to pay more taxes. It's as simple as that.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,019

    Ipsos

    Labour is on 41 per cent, up two points, the Conservatives 30 per cent, down three points, and the Liberal Democrats up three to 15 per cent.

    Just 21 per cent of adults say the Conservatives are “fit to govern”, down from 34 per cent in September and the lowest score for ten years, highlighting the party’s post-by-election woes, rather than Labour on the march.

    Sir Keir’s party gets the backing of just 33 per cent as “fit to govern”, up from 27 per cent in September, but below the 38 per cent in November 2017 under Jeremy Corbyn and 40 per cent in April 2015 under Ed Miliband.

    Two thirds of adults say Conservatives are divided, up from 44 per cent and the worst since November 2017, though this may not be suprising given that just weeks earlier 148 MPs voted against Mr Johnson in a confidence vote which he won with the backing of 211.

    Just under half, 49 per cent, say the Tories are out of date, up from 39 per cent in September, while those who regard them as “extreme” is up from 22 per cent to 30 per cent.

    Just 16 per cent say the Tories have a good team of leaders, also a ten-year low which reflects on the broader Cabinet.

    Only 12 per cent believe the Conservatives keep their promises, similar to 14 per cent in September, and also a ten-year low.

    Labour has improved on some measures and is ahead of the Tories on most of them including understanding the problems facing Britain, looking after the interests of people like me, and being concerned about people in real need in the country.

    However, overall it is not showing the forward momentum under Sir Keir which many of its MPs are growing increasingly impatient to see or breaking out of the range on party image it has had since 2015.

    Just over a quarter, 26 per cent, say it has a good team of leaders, up from 20 per cent in September but again worse or no better than the peaks under Mr Corbyn and Mr Miliband.

    Half of adults do say it is concerned about people in real need in Britain, but this is significantly lower than under Mr Corbyn.

    However, on keeping promises it is up five points to 23 per cent since September, understanding Britain’s problems up six to 45 per cent, and on being divided it is down nine points to 47 per cent, its lowest since 2015, a possible sign of how the Labour Left has been sidelined.



    https://www.standard.co.uk/news/politics/boris-johnson-early-general-election-tory-conservative-party-chris-pincher-b1009570.html

    Social proof.

    Big by-election losses drive down 'fit to govern' numbers in and of themselves.

    People don't want to be associated with an unpopular government.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 27,836
    edited July 2022
    algarkirk said:

    I went to a school where rugby was played, and I have zero idea about the differences between union and league, and which parts of the country play which. I can't even remember which my school played.

    Which is fair enough; I have no need to know. It's an irrelevance to me, even though I know it matters to hundreds of thousands. But if Dorries opines about it, she should make sure she knows what she's saying is correct. It's not just an indication that she has a loose mouth; it's a sign her department is not working well with her.

    The rules have changed a bit but the differences were:
    RU is a sport for posh hooligans
    Football is a sport for wwc hooligans
    Cricket a sport for middle class and posh gentlemen
    Rugby league a sport for wwc gentlemen (the most ignored, traduced and misunderstood group on the planet)

    Not really noted AFAICS.
    There are a heck of a lot of RL marginals. Not a massive constituency, to be sure. But Leigh, Dewsbury, Halifax, Workington, Copeland, Barrow, Keighley, etc., are places where a few hundred votes could be the difference.
    RL fans tend to take it exceptionally seriously.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 39,146
    Pulpstar said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Tory MPs furious at Chris Pincher (so far) keeping the party whip.

    One says: "They can't see difference between this and the Neil Parish situation in terms of consequences."

    Another adds: "He should never have been appointed to that role - a time bomb waiting to go off."

    https://twitter.com/KevinASchofield/status/1542773497654648833

    It's interesting that the Tories view sexual assault as less bad than watching pornography. Not a value judgement I'd be comfortable with.
    Watching porn, tractorial or otherwise, in front of female colleagues is arguably some sort of mental or emotional assault on these collagues. But yes, you have a point.
  • northern_monkeynorthern_monkey Posts: 1,493
    algarkirk said:

    I went to a school where rugby was played, and I have zero idea about the differences between union and league, and which parts of the country play which. I can't even remember which my school played.

    Which is fair enough; I have no need to know. It's an irrelevance to me, even though I know it matters to hundreds of thousands. But if Dorries opines about it, she should make sure she knows what she's saying is correct. It's not just an indication that she has a loose mouth; it's a sign her department is not working well with her.

    The rules have changed a bit but the differences were:
    RU is a sport for posh hooligans
    Football is a sport for wwc hooligans
    Cricket a sport for middle class and posh gentlemen
    Rugby league a sport for wwc gentlemen (the most ignored, traduced and misunderstood group on the planet)

    Rugby league is a sport for wwc gentlemen - I like that hypothesis. I know a lot of league players who are thoroughly nice blokes. The fans are nice people generally too - few arseholes, like Leeds fans can sometimes be.

    When Leeds were promoted I know a few jubilant fans who got on a train into Leeds that got more crowded at every stop, so it ended up full of hammered blokes making a right arse of themselves. Who then went into the middle of Leeds, during Covid, and continued being right arses. Can’t imagine a train full of Cas fans doing that.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,019
    Pulpstar said:

    And the kicker is we're still completely cucked by the ol' ECHR court :D

    You talk leave and right but funnily enough always tend to vote remain and left.
  • kjhkjh Posts: 10,458

    kjh said:

    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    Late to the thread header but having just come back from France (flew out train back) travelling to the EU (I have only travelled to France and Greece) is unambiguously worse.

    The posters at the Gare du Nord reminding people of maximum alcohol, etc volume allowed to be brought back to the UK but one minor irritating element.

    I didn't notice any difference. Except my passport gets stamped, which I like.

    The worst bit is always coming back into the UK, when you have to queue up to go through full passport control, and um.. that applies to British citizens who live here, and always did.
    I would say it took about an hour plus extra each way. And so does every single person I have spoken to about it. Except you.
    That's ridiculous.

    I got through passport control in about 12 minutes flying into Bulgaria on 19th June. I'm flying back to the UK tomorrow and will let you know the result but why would it be an hour extra coming *home*?

    That makes no sense at all.
    The process at the GdN from France and queues round the block at LHR otherwise.
    Maybe I'm on a minor route but I also flew to Geneva in March and that wasn't my experience then either.

    I haven't taken the train to be fair. I might do so next time though because my worst experience at Geneva was waiting 90 minutes in a long snaking queue to check-in along with hundreds of other skiers. They only had 4 desks open on a Sunday.

    Horrible.
    I hate flying because of the hassle. I travelled quite a bit during the pandemic and was spoilt by how easy it was. Travel to Lisbon was a shock as it brought us back down to earth about how awful it is.

    In airports which have a lot of non-EU flights (Brazil and Lusophone Africa for Lisbon), the the risk will always be long passport queues for non-EU citizens. It's the same when you fly to the US. You could be lucky and be on a flight that lands before the one from Mexico or Colombia, or you could be in a queue for hours.

    The simple solution is for the UK and EU to agree a deal that allows respective citizens unlimited stays, but with no right of residency, access to medical treatment or work. It really can't be beyond the wit of man to sort this out.

    Yes, I'd be supportive of that.
    As I've mentioned before we need to get over Brexit. We have left. Now let's sort out the issues with lots of little agreements to make life easier and iron out the issues.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 31,281
    TOPPING said:

    Foxy said:

    TOPPING said:

    Foxy said:

    TOPPING said:

    Just spent five minutes on Twitter, as I like to see what tim is saying.

    Dear god reading some typical posts (tweets from Angela Rayner and Sue Perkins were on my timeline for some reason) from the left and some remainers is enough to turn any sensible person into a rabid and frothing committed Conservative voter.

    That is how Tories always justify voting for the priapic clown, and his coterie of cronies.
    Well I justified voting for him in 2019 because of the alternative.

    I would like not to have that problem next time round.
    Vote Conservative to keep the oiks out of the opera!
    Vote Conservative to keep the rabid anti-semite far left activist out of Downing Street but yes if it makes you feel better opera, posho, elite.
    Who would you vote for if there was a GE tomorrow?
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 14,878
    Pulpstar said:

    Off topic - to lighten the mood a bit, daughter is 10 weeks and 10 lbs now. Had a full on back blaster yesterday :D

    "Had a full on back blaster yesterday" - is this some sort of code?
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 20,901

    Jonathan said:

    Morning all! With respect to the Brexit making people's lives better / worse and what does it matter now - it matters.

    Quite simply comments like "nobody voted to make their daily lives better" are utterly ignorant of what so many red wall voters expected.

    So it is a serious problem for the government that things have got worse and not better for many of these voters. Yes Covid and Ukraine etc etc but we are talking voters barely engaged with politics. They don't know or care about such details.

    Brexit has failed because the NHS has got worse and prices have gone up and wages haven't. It's that simple. That we can't rejoin any time soon doesn't matter, people won't forget about it and move on. What they will do is hold their new Tory MPs to account...

    Brexit is pretty special in that it hasn’t yet realised any benefit promised or otherwise. The rewriting of history to say that Brexit was never intended to yield benefits doesn’t really wash.
    That simply isn't true.

    We have a more sustainable agricultural and marine conservation policy now, public concern about immigration has a major issue has been killed off, we had a much better Covid vaccine programme, we've been able to adopt a more agile and flexible foreign policy on Ukraine with a firmer line, we've avoided any further drives to political union from Juncker or Von Der Leyen, or directives from Brussels that might target the City.

    Personally, I take it as a huge relief that I don't have to worry about what nonsense comes out of the mouths of the EU Commission, or the integrationist political agenda for the European Council every 6 months, because it doesn't affect me anymore.
    Agriculture is a mess.
    Immigration is not settled.
    The Poles and other Eastern European countries would argue they’ve shown robust support for Ukraine within the EU.
    UK Vaccine policy could have happened inside the EU
    There has been no further political union.

    But I’m glad you feel better.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,068
    Carnyx said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Mr. Pulpstar, sorry to hear that. Hope it can be sorted out.

    Well if it can't be I'll remaind my brexit voting colleagues of it if they ask me why's there no job bonus this year.
    Very nice new verb!
    Yes, a great neoligism, defined as such in the PB dictionary:

    Remaind: To rub salt in the wounds of Leavers, with a whiff of schadenfreude.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,842
    edited July 2022

    Pulpstar said:

    And the kicker is we're still completely cucked by the ol' ECHR court :D

    You talk leave and right but funnily enough always tend to vote remain and left.
    Eh ?

    I voted conservative in 2017 and 2019.
    My vote to remain in the EU was precisely because of the inconvienience and cost it might produce, not along any sort of culture war lines. Supremacy of the ECHR over UK courts (yes yes I know I know for those in the back) was one of those things we'd just have to suck up.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,019
    Scott_xP said:

    Jonathan said:

    Brexit is pretty special in that it hasn’t yet realised any benefit promised or otherwise. The rewriting of history to say that Brexit was never intended to yield benefits doesn’t really wash.

    Except apparently it does.

    The same people who were stupid enough to vote for it are stupid enough to believe they voted for it in spite of themselves...
    Remember this post next time anyone accuses anyone of "bullying" Scott for his posts.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 60,002
    edited July 2022
    kle4 said:

    Ipsos

    Labour is on 41 per cent, up two points, the Conservatives 30 per cent, down three points, and the Liberal Democrats up three to 15 per cent.

    Just 21 per cent of adults say the Conservatives are “fit to govern”, down from 34 per cent in September and the lowest score for ten years, highlighting the party’s post-by-election woes, rather than Labour on the march.

    Sir Keir’s party gets the backing of just 33 per cent as “fit to govern”, up from 27 per cent in September, but below the 38 per cent in November 2017 under Jeremy Corbyn and 40 per cent in April 2015 under Ed Miliband.



    https://www.standard.co.uk/news/politics/boris-johnson-early-general-election-tory-conservative-party-chris-pincher-b1009570.html

    Mid term blues getting pretty bad. Question is can it be reversed? Theres opportunity to do so given some of the Labour figures, but to put it mildly is Boris the person to do it?
    Boris is toxic and the party's inability to remove him is inexplicable

    However, labour are not in a good place either and apparently admit they have no policies having rejected their 20129 manifesto

    Putting the conservatives on one side for a moment, does anyone think labour could make the hard and difficult, even unpopular decisions, that will be needed over our economy in the years to come
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,263
    Scott_xP said:

    kle4 said:

    Parish was an idiot whose actions were offensive and disrespectful but otherwise not really harmful. Pincher appears to have behaved far worse.

    The difference seems to be Pincher supported BoZo
    I gather from reports the assaults were not against MPs, as first reported, but against staff (which IMO is much worse - far easier for a colleague to tell him to get lost).
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 23,926
    BBC's obsession with celebrity is doing Wimbledon a disservice
    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/tennis/2022/06/30/bbcs-obsession-celebrity-wimbledon-disservice/ (££££)

    This echoes a point made here yesterday, that the BBC reports the big names rather than the results, although it is slightly spoiled by the reporter, Jim White, needing to apologise for the Telegraph being much the same.

    He adds:-
    On Monday night, after a magnificent first-round encounter on Centre Court had stretched well beyond its scheduled slot on BBC television, Clare Balding signed off by saying: “And I’m off to bed dreaming that I had a heart as big as Serena Williams.” Which was quite a statement given that the veteran former champion had just lost.

    Balding is a brilliant broadcaster. And you suspect she will have woken up the next morning thinking it might have been better to at least acknowledge the fact there was a winner - the young Frenchwoman Harmony Tan, making her debut at Wimbledon by beating an all-time great.


    Clare Balding has always had the same flaw — she correctly identifies before the event what is the big story (in this case, Serena Williams' comeback) but rarely changes her stance in the light of results.
  • SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 15,241
    Scott_xP said:
    "Johnson was accused of trying to build a luxury tree house in the grounds of Chequers.

    He was forced to abandon the idea after police raised security concerns, according to a report in The Times.

    During a segment on the cost of living crisis, LBC’s Nick Ferrari said: “I read that you want a £150,000 tree house for your children - is that digging deep?”

    The prime minister replied: “I’m not going to comment on my children...”
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 14,878

    BBC's obsession with celebrity is doing Wimbledon a disservice
    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/tennis/2022/06/30/bbcs-obsession-celebrity-wimbledon-disservice/ (££££)

    This echoes a point made here yesterday, that the BBC reports the big names rather than the results, although it is slightly spoiled by the reporter, Jim White, needing to apologise for the Telegraph being much the same.

    He adds:-
    On Monday night, after a magnificent first-round encounter on Centre Court had stretched well beyond its scheduled slot on BBC television, Clare Balding signed off by saying: “And I’m off to bed dreaming that I had a heart as big as Serena Williams.” Which was quite a statement given that the veteran former champion had just lost.

    Balding is a brilliant broadcaster. And you suspect she will have woken up the next morning thinking it might have been better to at least acknowledge the fact there was a winner - the young Frenchwoman Harmony Tan, making her debut at Wimbledon by beating an all-time great.


    Clare Balding has always had the same flaw — she correctly identifies before the event what is the big story (in this case, Serena Williams' comeback) but rarely changes her stance in the light of results.

    Yep - this has annoyed me mightily this week. The BBC have belatedly discovered Cam Norrie at least -

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/newsround/62000070

    I suspect that whoever wrote this has only just found out themselves...
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 39,146
    Pulpstar said:

    eek said:

    Morning all! With respect to the Brexit making people's lives better / worse and what does it matter now - it matters.

    Quite simply comments like "nobody voted to make their daily lives better" are utterly ignorant of what so many red wall voters expected.

    So it is a serious problem for the government that things have got worse and not better for many of these voters. Yes Covid and Ukraine etc etc but we are talking voters barely engaged with politics. They don't know or care about such details.

    Brexit has failed because the NHS has got worse and prices have gone up and wages haven't. It's that simple. That we can't rejoin any time soon doesn't matter, people won't forget about it and move on. What they will do is hold their new Tory MPs to account...

    Good morning

    The public are angry, frightened and frankly scared and the government simply have no answer to the serious problems it is facing and have toxic Johnson promising much and not delivering

    It does seem the public expect the government to assuage the crisis but do not care or understand that the government can only do that with their taxes which they do not want to pay or see rise

    I really am of the opinion the conservatives are heading out of office, but unfortunately the public will soon find out the alternatives are not any better and most are going to be poorer

    As I reported yesterday the world economies have seen 13 trillion dollars wiped off share values, the worst ever start to a year and seeing falling pension investments, and by the way nothing to do with brexit

    My wife and I are fortunate in so many ways that whatever the make up of the next government it is unlikely to affect us, but I am genuinely sorry for so many who are really suffering and frankly with no end in sight
    What do you mean Bozo hasn't got ideas.

    To fight inflation he's going to reduce VAT for a bit. A 2.5% saving will knock 0.8% off the inflation rate - reducing it to 10.2% from 11%.

    As VAT is a regressive tax it won't even help the people in direst need but hey it's a solution (to a completely different problem that the Government needs to solve).
    Reduction of a regressive tax must be by default progressive ?

    It can't not be.
    The tax is still regressive: just not so heavy, but the proportions are still shit for the poor.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 31,281
    edited July 2022
    Foxy said:

    Carnyx said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Mr. Pulpstar, sorry to hear that. Hope it can be sorted out.

    Well if it can't be I'll remaind my brexit voting colleagues of it if they ask me why's there no job bonus this year.
    Very nice new verb!
    Yes, a great neoligism, defined as such in the PB dictionary:

    Remaind: To rub salt in the wounds of Leavers, with a whiff of schadenfreude.
    Tempting (and easy) as it is to join in with that sport, do I really want to become a Remainder?
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,068
    TOPPING said:

    Foxy said:

    TOPPING said:

    Foxy said:

    TOPPING said:

    Just spent five minutes on Twitter, as I like to see what tim is saying.

    Dear god reading some typical posts (tweets from Angela Rayner and Sue Perkins were on my timeline for some reason) from the left and some remainers is enough to turn any sensible person into a rabid and frothing committed Conservative voter.

    That is how Tories always justify voting for the priapic clown, and his coterie of cronies.
    Well I justified voting for him in 2019 because of the alternative.

    I would like not to have that problem next time round.
    Vote Conservative to keep the oiks out of the opera!
    Vote Conservative to keep the rabid anti-semite far left activist out of Downing Street but yes if it makes you feel better opera, posho, elite.
    Do you really think Starmer is a rabid anti-semite far left activist?
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,019
    Pulpstar said:

    Pulpstar said:

    And the kicker is we're still completely cucked by the ol' ECHR court :D

    You talk leave and right but funnily enough always tend to vote remain and left.
    Eh ?

    I voted conservative in 2017 and 2019.
    You bottled the EU referendum and now say you want to join the euro, so I don't really take the ECHR stuff seriously.

    You've since said you'd vote for Jacinda Ardern in a heartbeat as well as being tempted by Starmer, so I think your Tory votes were really just anti-Corbyn ones.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 60,002

    Morning all! With respect to the Brexit making people's lives better / worse and what does it matter now - it matters.

    Quite simply comments like "nobody voted to make their daily lives better" are utterly ignorant of what so many red wall voters expected.

    So it is a serious problem for the government that things have got worse and not better for many of these voters. Yes Covid and Ukraine etc etc but we are talking voters barely engaged with politics. They don't know or care about such details.

    Brexit has failed because the NHS has got worse and prices have gone up and wages haven't. It's that simple. That we can't rejoin any time soon doesn't matter, people won't forget about it and move on. What they will do is hold their new Tory MPs to account...

    Good morning

    The public are angry, frightened and frankly scared and the government simply have no answer to the serious problems it is facing and have toxic Johnson promising much and not delivering

    It does seem the public expect the government to assuage the crisis but do not care or understand that the government can only do that with their taxes which they do not want to pay or see rise

    I really am of the opinion the conservatives are heading out of office, but unfortunately the public will soon find out the alternatives are not any better and most are going to be poorer

    As I reported yesterday the world economies have seen 13 trillion dollars wiped off share values, the worst ever start to a year and seeing falling pension investments, and by the way nothing to do with brexit

    My wife and I are fortunate in so many ways that whatever the make up of the next government it is unlikely to affect us, but I am genuinely sorry for so many who are really suffering and frankly with no end in sight
    Those of us who are comfortably off should be prepared to pay more taxes. It's as simple as that.
    I will pay whatever taxes I am asked to do
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 113,969
    Pulpstar said:

    Jonathan said:

    For me the honest answer I'd have to give is that Brexit has neither made "daily life" better or worse, its pretty indifferent to be honest.

    But that wasn't the point of Brexit.

    Brexit is an incremental burn of rising costs and bureaucracy. The costs of which slowly add up
    Slowly ?

    We're in a row with a supplier that wants to charge us quarter of a million of german VAT.

    Fuck the culture war aspects, it's seriously expensive for UK business. Now if St Bart can find me any business that has substantially benefitted I'm all ears.

    Tax lawyers perhaps.
    Banking, financial services, and insurance in house regulation people have really benefited.

    I looked at my budgets over the last few years, and since 2017 I've trebled our spend on professional fees.

    Who knew tax lawyers in Ireland and Lichtenstein were so expensive.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 31,281

    Pulpstar said:

    Off topic - to lighten the mood a bit, daughter is 10 weeks and 10 lbs now. Had a full on back blaster yesterday :D

    "Had a full on back blaster yesterday" - is this some sort of code?
    Not sure if I want to know what it means tbh 😬
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,068

    Foxy said:

    Carnyx said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Mr. Pulpstar, sorry to hear that. Hope it can be sorted out.

    Well if it can't be I'll remaind my brexit voting colleagues of it if they ask me why's there no job bonus this year.
    Very nice new verb!
    Yes, a great neoligism, defined as such in the PB dictionary:

    Remaind: To rub salt in the wounds of Leavers, with a whiff of schadenfreude.
    Tempting (and easy) as it is to join in with that sport, do I really want to become a Remainder?
    I can see it would promote a long division.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 31,718

    algarkirk said:

    I went to a school where rugby was played, and I have zero idea about the differences between union and league, and which parts of the country play which. I can't even remember which my school played.

    Which is fair enough; I have no need to know. It's an irrelevance to me, even though I know it matters to hundreds of thousands. But if Dorries opines about it, she should make sure she knows what she's saying is correct. It's not just an indication that she has a loose mouth; it's a sign her department is not working well with her.

    The rules have changed a bit but the differences were:
    RU is a sport for posh hooligans
    Football is a sport for wwc hooligans
    Cricket a sport for middle class and posh gentlemen
    Rugby league a sport for wwc gentlemen (the most ignored, traduced and misunderstood group on the planet)

    Rugby league is a sport for wwc gentlemen - I like that hypothesis. I know a lot of league players who are thoroughly nice blokes. The fans are nice people generally too - few arseholes, like Leeds fans can sometimes be.

    When Leeds were promoted I know a few jubilant fans who got on a train into Leeds that got more crowded at every stop, so it ended up full of hammered blokes making a right arse of themselves. Who then went into the middle of Leeds, during Covid, and continued being right arses. Can’t imagine a train full of Cas fans doing that.
    I was brought up to play and 'enjoy' Union; South Welsh father, rugby playing Grammar School with delusions about being in minor public school!
    However I went Oop North as a young man, started watching Rugby League, and now much much prefer it to Union!
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 113,969

    Pulpstar said:

    Pulpstar said:

    And the kicker is we're still completely cucked by the ol' ECHR court :D

    You talk leave and right but funnily enough always tend to vote remain and left.
    Eh ?

    I voted conservative in 2017 and 2019.
    You bottled the EU referendum and now say you want to join the euro, so I don't really take the ECHR stuff seriously.

    You've since said you'd vote for Jacinda Ardern in a heartbeat as well as being tempted by Starmer, so I think your Tory votes were really just anti-Corbyn ones.
    You're going full HYUFD there.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 31,281
    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    Carnyx said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Mr. Pulpstar, sorry to hear that. Hope it can be sorted out.

    Well if it can't be I'll remaind my brexit voting colleagues of it if they ask me why's there no job bonus this year.
    Very nice new verb!
    Yes, a great neoligism, defined as such in the PB dictionary:

    Remaind: To rub salt in the wounds of Leavers, with a whiff of schadenfreude.
    Tempting (and easy) as it is to join in with that sport, do I really want to become a Remainder?
    I can see it would promote a long division.
    Very good. It certainly arises from one!
  • AlistairMAlistairM Posts: 2,004
    IanB2 said:

    Buckinghamshire
    Bernwood
    LD 1158 38.7% +21.4%
    Green 1030 34.4& -3.9%
    Con 723 24.1% -9.8%
    Lab 85 2.8% -7.7%
    LD gain from Con

    It would appear, a split result between the Tories and Greens last time, and the LibDems have somehow come through the middle?

    I live in this ward. The LDs put up a candidate who was until a few years ago the headteacher of a junior school in the ward. She was also I believe the only candidate who actually lived in the area. The Greens got someone elected last year alongside 2 Tories. The Greens and LDs both threw everything at it. We were inundated with flyers from them. I don't remember getting a single one from the Tories.

    I'm a traditional Tory voter but they didn't come into consideration for my vote. For a number of reasons:
    - Candidate lived outside the area
    - Tories just seem to wave through more housing development without thinking about the infrastructure
    - Extra prompt to the Tories to get rid of Boris

    For the first time in my life I voted LibDem. Mainly because the candidate was very local and understands the challenges we have here.

    So, very local reasons for the LDs coming through the middle but I'm sure the Boris factor came into play to a certain extent.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 60,002
    eek said:

    Morning all! With respect to the Brexit making people's lives better / worse and what does it matter now - it matters.

    Quite simply comments like "nobody voted to make their daily lives better" are utterly ignorant of what so many red wall voters expected.

    So it is a serious problem for the government that things have got worse and not better for many of these voters. Yes Covid and Ukraine etc etc but we are talking voters barely engaged with politics. They don't know or care about such details.

    Brexit has failed because the NHS has got worse and prices have gone up and wages haven't. It's that simple. That we can't rejoin any time soon doesn't matter, people won't forget about it and move on. What they will do is hold their new Tory MPs to account...

    Good morning

    The public are angry, frightened and frankly scared and the government simply have no answer to the serious problems it is facing and have toxic Johnson promising much and not delivering

    It does seem the public expect the government to assuage the crisis but do not care or understand that the government can only do that with their taxes which they do not want to pay or see rise

    I really am of the opinion the conservatives are heading out of office, but unfortunately the public will soon find out the alternatives are not any better and most are going to be poorer

    As I reported yesterday the world economies have seen 13 trillion dollars wiped off share values, the worst ever start to a year and seeing falling pension investments, and by the way nothing to do with brexit

    My wife and I are fortunate in so many ways that whatever the make up of the next government it is unlikely to affect us, but I am genuinely sorry for so many who are really suffering and frankly with no end in sight
    What do you mean Bozo hasn't got ideas.

    To fight inflation he's going to reduce VAT for a bit. A 2.5% saving will knock 0.8% off the inflation rate - reducing it to 10.2% from 11%.

    As VAT is a regressive tax it won't even help the people in direst need but hey it's a solution (to a completely different problem that the Government needs to solve).
    You provide a good example re VAT, he says VAT is to be reduced but Rishi apparently says no

    He is all promise and no delivery
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,019
    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Morning all! With respect to the Brexit making people's lives better / worse and what does it matter now - it matters.

    Quite simply comments like "nobody voted to make their daily lives better" are utterly ignorant of what so many red wall voters expected.

    So it is a serious problem for the government that things have got worse and not better for many of these voters. Yes Covid and Ukraine etc etc but we are talking voters barely engaged with politics. They don't know or care about such details.

    Brexit has failed because the NHS has got worse and prices have gone up and wages haven't. It's that simple. That we can't rejoin any time soon doesn't matter, people won't forget about it and move on. What they will do is hold their new Tory MPs to account...

    Brexit is pretty special in that it hasn’t yet realised any benefit promised or otherwise. The rewriting of history to say that Brexit was never intended to yield benefits doesn’t really wash.
    That simply isn't true.

    We have a more sustainable agricultural and marine conservation policy now, public concern about immigration has a major issue has been killed off, we had a much better Covid vaccine programme, we've been able to adopt a more agile and flexible foreign policy on Ukraine with a firmer line, we've avoided any further drives to political union from Juncker or Von Der Leyen, or directives from Brussels that might target the City.

    Personally, I take it as a huge relief that I don't have to worry about what nonsense comes out of the mouths of the EU Commission, or the integrationist political agenda for the European Council every 6 months, because it doesn't affect me anymore.
    Agriculture is a mess.
    Immigration is not settled.
    The Poles and other Eastern European countries would argue they’ve shown robust support for Ukraine within the EU.
    UK Vaccine policy could have happened inside the EU
    There has been no further political union.

    But I’m glad you feel better.
    Agriculture is not a mess.
    Public concern about immigration has fallen drastically.
    We were able to put in place sanctions much earlier and adopt a robust line that influenced the EU in conjunction with Poland within.
    No it couldn't, this is pure "in theory" stuff whereas in political practice we'd absolutely have signed up to the same EU scheme
    Yes, us leaving has given them reason to pause (not in all areas, I hasten to add) and it would have continued had we stayed.

    You need to get over your simplistic Brexit obsession and ridiculous partisanship.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 27,836

    BBC's obsession with celebrity is doing Wimbledon a disservice
    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/tennis/2022/06/30/bbcs-obsession-celebrity-wimbledon-disservice/ (££££)

    This echoes a point made here yesterday, that the BBC reports the big names rather than the results, although it is slightly spoiled by the reporter, Jim White, needing to apologise for the Telegraph being much the same.

    He adds:-
    On Monday night, after a magnificent first-round encounter on Centre Court had stretched well beyond its scheduled slot on BBC television, Clare Balding signed off by saying: “And I’m off to bed dreaming that I had a heart as big as Serena Williams.” Which was quite a statement given that the veteran former champion had just lost.

    Balding is a brilliant broadcaster. And you suspect she will have woken up the next morning thinking it might have been better to at least acknowledge the fact there was a winner - the young Frenchwoman Harmony Tan, making her debut at Wimbledon by beating an all-time great.


    Clare Balding has always had the same flaw — she correctly identifies before the event what is the big story (in this case, Serena Williams' comeback) but rarely changes her stance in the light of results.

    Yep - this has annoyed me mightily this week. The BBC have belatedly discovered Cam Norrie at least -

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/newsround/62000070

    I suspect that whoever wrote this has only just found out themselves...
    Norrie is probably Britain's least celebrated or well-known world-class sports person.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,842

    Pulpstar said:

    Pulpstar said:

    And the kicker is we're still completely cucked by the ol' ECHR court :D

    You talk leave and right but funnily enough always tend to vote remain and left.
    Eh ?

    I voted conservative in 2017 and 2019.
    You bottled the EU referendum and now say you want to join the euro, so I don't really take the ECHR stuff seriously.

    You've since said you'd vote for Jacinda Ardern in a heartbeat as well as being tempted by Starmer, so I think your Tory votes were really just anti-Corbyn ones.
    Well I won't lie, I did everything in my power to keep Corbyn out in 2017 and 19.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 39,146

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    Carnyx said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Mr. Pulpstar, sorry to hear that. Hope it can be sorted out.

    Well if it can't be I'll remaind my brexit voting colleagues of it if they ask me why's there no job bonus this year.
    Very nice new verb!
    Yes, a great neoligism, defined as such in the PB dictionary:

    Remaind: To rub salt in the wounds of Leavers, with a whiff of schadenfreude.
    Tempting (and easy) as it is to join in with that sport, do I really want to become a Remainder?
    I can see it would promote a long division.
    Very good. It certainly arises from one!
    And, on PB,. it sometimes ends in vulgar factions.
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 38,879
    Sandpit said:

    kjh said:

    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    Late to the thread header but having just come back from France (flew out train back) travelling to the EU (I have only travelled to France and Greece) is unambiguously worse.

    The posters at the Gare du Nord reminding people of maximum alcohol, etc volume allowed to be brought back to the UK but one minor irritating element.

    I didn't notice any difference. Except my passport gets stamped, which I like.

    The worst bit is always coming back into the UK, when you have to queue up to go through full passport control, and um.. that applies to British citizens who live here, and always did.
    I would say it took about an hour plus extra each way. And so does every single person I have spoken to about it. Except you.
    That's ridiculous.

    I got through passport control in about 12 minutes flying into Bulgaria on 19th June. I'm flying back to the UK tomorrow and will let you know the result but why would it be an hour extra coming *home*?

    That makes no sense at all.
    The process at the GdN from France and queues round the block at LHR otherwise.
    Maybe I'm on a minor route but I also flew to Geneva in March and that wasn't my experience then either.

    I haven't taken the train to be fair. I might do so next time though because my worst experience at Geneva was waiting 90 minutes in a long snaking queue to check-in along with hundreds of other skiers. They only had 4 desks open on a Sunday.

    Horrible.
    I hate flying because of the hassle. I travelled quite a bit during the pandemic and was spoilt by how easy it was. Travel to Lisbon was a shock as it brought us back down to earth about how awful it is.

    In airports which have a lot of non-EU flights (Brazil and Lusophone Africa for Lisbon), the the risk will always be long passport queues for non-EU citizens. It's the same when you fly to the US. You could be lucky and be on a flight that lands before the one from Mexico or Colombia, or you could be in a queue for hours.

    The simple solution is for the UK and EU to agree a deal that allows respective citizens unlimited stays, but with no right of residency, access to medical treatment or work. It really can't be beyond the wit of man to sort this out.

    IIRC the UK side proposed a reciprocal deal on visiting rights to the Schengen zone, but it was rejected by the EU.

    As far as Macron is concerned, making the Brits queue up for hours is by design. Border arrangements are devolved to the member states, not an EU competence. Those states that want to attract British tourists and business people (Netherlands, Portugal, Spanish islands) have the choice to either make things easy, or act as a trade barrier to their own economy.

    Residency is a country matter, entry rules are EU-wide. Passports have to be stamped because of the 90-day limit on stays for non-EU citizens without visas.

    There are plenty of entry points into France which do not involve queues. You'll not wait long in many regional airports, most of the time. There will always be long queue risks for Paris now. same with Lisbon, Amsterdam, Frankfurt, Barcelona and a few other places that have large and regular non-EU flight schedules. In the summer that will be amplified to many other places because of the sheer number of flights coming from the UK.
  • SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 15,241
    Politico.com - NEW YORK - Hochul administration moves to shut gas powered cryptocurrency plant
    It denied a key permit for a gas powered cryptocurrency mining operation in the Finger Lakes.

    https://www.politico.com/news/2022/06/30/hochul-administration-moves-to-shut-gas-powered-cryptocurrency-plant-00043497

  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,614

    kjh said:

    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    Late to the thread header but having just come back from France (flew out train back) travelling to the EU (I have only travelled to France and Greece) is unambiguously worse.

    The posters at the Gare du Nord reminding people of maximum alcohol, etc volume allowed to be brought back to the UK but one minor irritating element.

    I didn't notice any difference. Except my passport gets stamped, which I like.

    The worst bit is always coming back into the UK, when you have to queue up to go through full passport control, and um.. that applies to British citizens who live here, and always did.
    I would say it took about an hour plus extra each way. And so does every single person I have spoken to about it. Except you.
    That's ridiculous.

    I got through passport control in about 12 minutes flying into Bulgaria on 19th June. I'm flying back to the UK tomorrow and will let you know the result but why would it be an hour extra coming *home*?

    That makes no sense at all.
    The process at the GdN from France and queues round the block at LHR otherwise.
    Maybe I'm on a minor route but I also flew to Geneva in March and that wasn't my experience then either.

    I haven't taken the train to be fair. I might do so next time though because my worst experience at Geneva was waiting 90 minutes in a long snaking queue to check-in along with hundreds of other skiers. They only had 4 desks open on a Sunday.

    Horrible.
    I hate flying because of the hassle. I travelled quite a bit during the pandemic and was spoilt by how easy it was. Travel to Lisbon was a shock as it brought us back down to earth about how awful it is.
    I think I'd be tempted by taking the ferry from Portsmouth to Bilbao if I was holidaying in northern/central Spain now, or the train.

    I've done Eurostar to Paris before and then the sleeper to Madrid, followed by a high speed train to Malaga for a wedding in the Costa de Sol.

    It was quite delightful.
    I’ve done the ferry to Bilbao. It’s good fun but you have to remember not to get pissed on the second night, because it’s an early start in the morning!
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,019
    kjh said:

    kjh said:

    For me the honest answer I'd have to give is that Brexit has neither made "daily life" better or worse, its pretty indifferent to be honest.

    But that wasn't the point of Brexit.

    I assume you don't travel. Queues, pets, 90 day limit. All impact me, friends and family badly. 3 hour queue in Lisbon, cancelled trip to France as couldn't get dog documents in time, have to plan travelling with a dog weeks/months in advance, 90 day limit completely buggered two friends. One camped in motorhome on son's drive having had to return from EU, another having to go thru hoops re his villa in Portugal and travel limited.
    But, these are the problems of a very lucky few.

    Most people only have 25 days holiday a year and the 90 day limit will never affect them.
    True. Although the queues affect everyone and the pet issue affects anyone with a dog. Also it isn't just the wealthy, but many retired people (ironic really as many voted leave). In my friends case he is not wealthy. He sold his home and bought a motorhome to tour Europe for a few years.
    Good for him, and you can still of course retire in Europe (most people only retire to one country) by meeting their residency requirements and you can still exercise free movement 50% of the time ad-infinitum.

    The case shouldn't be overstated.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 31,281

    BBC's obsession with celebrity is doing Wimbledon a disservice
    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/tennis/2022/06/30/bbcs-obsession-celebrity-wimbledon-disservice/ (££££)

    This echoes a point made here yesterday, that the BBC reports the big names rather than the results, although it is slightly spoiled by the reporter, Jim White, needing to apologise for the Telegraph being much the same.

    He adds:-
    On Monday night, after a magnificent first-round encounter on Centre Court had stretched well beyond its scheduled slot on BBC television, Clare Balding signed off by saying: “And I’m off to bed dreaming that I had a heart as big as Serena Williams.” Which was quite a statement given that the veteran former champion had just lost.

    Balding is a brilliant broadcaster. And you suspect she will have woken up the next morning thinking it might have been better to at least acknowledge the fact there was a winner - the young Frenchwoman Harmony Tan, making her debut at Wimbledon by beating an all-time great.


    Clare Balding has always had the same flaw — she correctly identifies before the event what is the big story (in this case, Serena Williams' comeback) but rarely changes her stance in the light of results.

    Yep - this has annoyed me mightily this week. The BBC have belatedly discovered Cam Norrie at least -

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/newsround/62000070

    I suspect that whoever wrote this has only just found out themselves...
    "Born in South Africa, raised in New Zealand and trained in the USA..." A true modern Brit!
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,614

    Good morning, everyone.

    F1: already backed, and mentioned, Sainz to win each way at 14 and Perez at 10.5 (odds may have altered). Also backed the Spaniard to top FP1 each way at 8.5. Odds there down to 6, might still be value.

    Had a £1 free bet. Slung it on Hamilton for FP1 at 17, on the off-chance the upgrades work very well. I suspect even if they're good then the gap to the top teams will remain, just a little narrower than before.

    The weather forecast for Silverstone looks quite interesting for Saturday and Sunday.

    A well-timed shower or two, might put the cat among the pigeons.
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 14,878
    dixiedean said:

    BBC's obsession with celebrity is doing Wimbledon a disservice
    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/tennis/2022/06/30/bbcs-obsession-celebrity-wimbledon-disservice/ (££££)

    This echoes a point made here yesterday, that the BBC reports the big names rather than the results, although it is slightly spoiled by the reporter, Jim White, needing to apologise for the Telegraph being much the same.

    He adds:-
    On Monday night, after a magnificent first-round encounter on Centre Court had stretched well beyond its scheduled slot on BBC television, Clare Balding signed off by saying: “And I’m off to bed dreaming that I had a heart as big as Serena Williams.” Which was quite a statement given that the veteran former champion had just lost.

    Balding is a brilliant broadcaster. And you suspect she will have woken up the next morning thinking it might have been better to at least acknowledge the fact there was a winner - the young Frenchwoman Harmony Tan, making her debut at Wimbledon by beating an all-time great.


    Clare Balding has always had the same flaw — she correctly identifies before the event what is the big story (in this case, Serena Williams' comeback) but rarely changes her stance in the light of results.

    Yep - this has annoyed me mightily this week. The BBC have belatedly discovered Cam Norrie at least -

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/newsround/62000070

    I suspect that whoever wrote this has only just found out themselves...
    Norrie is probably Britain's least celebrated or well-known world-class sports person.
    Hard to disagree. When Murray was ascending to the top the BBC were all over him. Norrie - less so.

    Although I'll through out Jamie Murray (doubles grand slam champion no less than 7 times) as someone else who goes under the radar in the tennis world.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 32,739
    Coming back to this. No10 not denying Politico report that Boris Johnson knew about allegations re Pincher’s behaviour but still appointed him deputy chief whip as a reward for his loyalty.

    Downing St source: “Civil service cleared the appointment.”
    https://twitter.com/kevinaschofield/status/1542596281167757316
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,019
    Sandpit said:

    kjh said:

    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    Late to the thread header but having just come back from France (flew out train back) travelling to the EU (I have only travelled to France and Greece) is unambiguously worse.

    The posters at the Gare du Nord reminding people of maximum alcohol, etc volume allowed to be brought back to the UK but one minor irritating element.

    I didn't notice any difference. Except my passport gets stamped, which I like.

    The worst bit is always coming back into the UK, when you have to queue up to go through full passport control, and um.. that applies to British citizens who live here, and always did.
    I would say it took about an hour plus extra each way. And so does every single person I have spoken to about it. Except you.
    That's ridiculous.

    I got through passport control in about 12 minutes flying into Bulgaria on 19th June. I'm flying back to the UK tomorrow and will let you know the result but why would it be an hour extra coming *home*?

    That makes no sense at all.
    The process at the GdN from France and queues round the block at LHR otherwise.
    Maybe I'm on a minor route but I also flew to Geneva in March and that wasn't my experience then either.

    I haven't taken the train to be fair. I might do so next time though because my worst experience at Geneva was waiting 90 minutes in a long snaking queue to check-in along with hundreds of other skiers. They only had 4 desks open on a Sunday.

    Horrible.
    I hate flying because of the hassle. I travelled quite a bit during the pandemic and was spoilt by how easy it was. Travel to Lisbon was a shock as it brought us back down to earth about how awful it is.

    In airports which have a lot of non-EU flights (Brazil and Lusophone Africa for Lisbon), the the risk will always be long passport queues for non-EU citizens. It's the same when you fly to the US. You could be lucky and be on a flight that lands before the one from Mexico or Colombia, or you could be in a queue for hours.

    The simple solution is for the UK and EU to agree a deal that allows respective citizens unlimited stays, but with no right of residency, access to medical treatment or work. It really can't be beyond the wit of man to sort this out.

    IIRC the UK side proposed a reciprocal deal on visiting rights to the Schengen zone, but it was rejected by the EU.

    As far as Macron is concerned, making the Brits queue up for hours is by design. Border arrangements are devolved to the member states, not an EU competence. Those states that want to attract British tourists and business people (Netherlands, Portugal, Spanish islands) have the choice to either make things easy, or act as a trade barrier to their own economy.
    The EU has certainly been working-to-rule when it comes to the UK as they view us as a renegade, and a risky one at that, and not a serious partner. Hopefully, that will change once the current generation of leaders have left office.

    And now, I really must head out with my family.

    Good day everyone.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 32,739
    Really noteworthy the vast number of Tory members, staffers, MPs and gov sources who have got in touch to express a lot of relief and gratitude that our Sun story has come out
    https://twitter.com/hoffman_noa/status/1542780852903477249
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 20,901

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Morning all! With respect to the Brexit making people's lives better / worse and what does it matter now - it matters.

    Quite simply comments like "nobody voted to make their daily lives better" are utterly ignorant of what so many red wall voters expected.

    So it is a serious problem for the government that things have got worse and not better for many of these voters. Yes Covid and Ukraine etc etc but we are talking voters barely engaged with politics. They don't know or care about such details.

    Brexit has failed because the NHS has got worse and prices have gone up and wages haven't. It's that simple. That we can't rejoin any time soon doesn't matter, people won't forget about it and move on. What they will do is hold their new Tory MPs to account...

    Brexit is pretty special in that it hasn’t yet realised any benefit promised or otherwise. The rewriting of history to say that Brexit was never intended to yield benefits doesn’t really wash.
    That simply isn't true.

    We have a more sustainable agricultural and marine conservation policy now, public concern about immigration has a major issue has been killed off, we had a much better Covid vaccine programme, we've been able to adopt a more agile and flexible foreign policy on Ukraine with a firmer line, we've avoided any further drives to political union from Juncker or Von Der Leyen, or directives from Brussels that might target the City.

    Personally, I take it as a huge relief that I don't have to worry about what nonsense comes out of the mouths of the EU Commission, or the integrationist political agenda for the European Council every 6 months, because it doesn't affect me anymore.
    Agriculture is a mess.
    Immigration is not settled.
    The Poles and other Eastern European countries would argue they’ve shown robust support for Ukraine within the EU.
    UK Vaccine policy could have happened inside the EU
    There has been no further political union.

    But I’m glad you feel better.
    Agriculture is not a mess.
    Public concern about immigration has fallen drastically.
    We were able to put in place sanctions much earlier and adopt a robust line that influenced the EU in conjunction with Poland within.
    No it couldn't, this is pure "in theory" stuff whereas in political practice we'd absolutely have signed up to the same EU scheme
    Yes, us leaving has given them reason to pause (not in all areas, I hasten to add) and it would have continued had we stayed.

    You need to get over your simplistic Brexit obsession and ridiculous partisanship.
    Is that the best you have? Good grief, it's worse than I thought.
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 14,878

    BBC's obsession with celebrity is doing Wimbledon a disservice
    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/tennis/2022/06/30/bbcs-obsession-celebrity-wimbledon-disservice/ (££££)

    This echoes a point made here yesterday, that the BBC reports the big names rather than the results, although it is slightly spoiled by the reporter, Jim White, needing to apologise for the Telegraph being much the same.

    He adds:-
    On Monday night, after a magnificent first-round encounter on Centre Court had stretched well beyond its scheduled slot on BBC television, Clare Balding signed off by saying: “And I’m off to bed dreaming that I had a heart as big as Serena Williams.” Which was quite a statement given that the veteran former champion had just lost.

    Balding is a brilliant broadcaster. And you suspect she will have woken up the next morning thinking it might have been better to at least acknowledge the fact there was a winner - the young Frenchwoman Harmony Tan, making her debut at Wimbledon by beating an all-time great.


    Clare Balding has always had the same flaw — she correctly identifies before the event what is the big story (in this case, Serena Williams' comeback) but rarely changes her stance in the light of results.

    Yep - this has annoyed me mightily this week. The BBC have belatedly discovered Cam Norrie at least -

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/newsround/62000070

    I suspect that whoever wrote this has only just found out themselves...
    "Born in South Africa, raised in New Zealand and trained in the USA..." A true modern Brit!
    Twas ever thus. Most of our greatest cricketers were not born in England.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 40,950
    edited July 2022

    kjh said:

    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    Late to the thread header but having just come back from France (flew out train back) travelling to the EU (I have only travelled to France and Greece) is unambiguously worse.

    The posters at the Gare du Nord reminding people of maximum alcohol, etc volume allowed to be brought back to the UK but one minor irritating element.

    I didn't notice any difference. Except my passport gets stamped, which I like.

    The worst bit is always coming back into the UK, when you have to queue up to go through full passport control, and um.. that applies to British citizens who live here, and always did.
    I would say it took about an hour plus extra each way. And so does every single person I have spoken to about it. Except you.
    That's ridiculous.

    I got through passport control in about 12 minutes flying into Bulgaria on 19th June. I'm flying back to the UK tomorrow and will let you know the result but why would it be an hour extra coming *home*?

    That makes no sense at all.
    The process at the GdN from France and queues round the block at LHR otherwise.
    Maybe I'm on a minor route but I also flew to Geneva in March and that wasn't my experience then either.

    I haven't taken the train to be fair. I might do so next time though because my worst experience at Geneva was waiting 90 minutes in a long snaking queue to check-in along with hundreds of other skiers. They only had 4 desks open on a Sunday.

    Horrible.
    I hate flying because of the hassle. I travelled quite a bit during the pandemic and was spoilt by how easy it was. Travel to Lisbon was a shock as it brought us back down to earth about how awful it is.

    In airports which have a lot of non-EU flights (Brazil and Lusophone Africa for Lisbon), the the risk will always be long passport queues for non-EU citizens. It's the same when you fly to the US. You could be lucky and be on a flight that lands before the one from Mexico or Colombia, or you could be in a queue for hours.

    The simple solution is for the UK and EU to agree a deal that allows respective citizens unlimited stays, but with no right of residency, access to medical treatment or work. It really can't be beyond the wit of man to sort this out.

    At the horrendous (talking hundreds of yards) queue at CdG I was next to the/a Kenyan football team. And very charming they were too.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,083
    TOPPING said:

    Late to the thread header but having just come back from France (flew out train back) travelling to the EU (I have only travelled to France and Greece) is unambiguously worse.

    The posters at the Gare du Nord reminding people of maximum alcohol, etc volume allowed to be brought back to the UK but one minor irritating element.

    Surely trying to board the train carrying more than 24 bottles of wine (plus the various other allowances) would make you rather conspicuous?
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 113,969

    Jonathan said:

    For me the honest answer I'd have to give is that Brexit has neither made "daily life" better or worse, its pretty indifferent to be honest.

    But that wasn't the point of Brexit.

    Brexit is an incremental burn of rising costs and bureaucracy. The costs of which slowly add up
    I think Brexit is maybe causing 20% of our challenges at the moment - it's churlish to say it's zero, we all knew it would come with border friction costs - the rest is Covid, global supply chain issues, Ukraine and domestic policy, but it gets blamed for 150% of our problems because Brits love whinging and an easy scapegoat.

    If we didn't have Brexit we'd need another one, and that would probably be the EU.
    Oh really?


  • StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 6,763

    Scott_xP said:

    DougSeal said:
    Having already proven that she knows fuck all about the Culture and Media parts of her brief, it was only fair that Nadine Dorries should do the same for Sport.
    #NadineDorries

    https://twitter.com/Parody_PM/status/1542524706321879040
    Nadine Dorries does seem ignorant and uniquely incurious about her brief, which has led to previous errors on the funding and ownership of Channels 4 and 5, as well as downstreamed movies and tennis pitches.
    I like Nadine. She’s fun and basically a nice person. So rare in politics.

    Not really Cabinet material though…
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 48,919
    dixiedean said:

    BBC's obsession with celebrity is doing Wimbledon a disservice
    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/tennis/2022/06/30/bbcs-obsession-celebrity-wimbledon-disservice/ (££££)

    This echoes a point made here yesterday, that the BBC reports the big names rather than the results, although it is slightly spoiled by the reporter, Jim White, needing to apologise for the Telegraph being much the same.

    He adds:-
    On Monday night, after a magnificent first-round encounter on Centre Court had stretched well beyond its scheduled slot on BBC television, Clare Balding signed off by saying: “And I’m off to bed dreaming that I had a heart as big as Serena Williams.” Which was quite a statement given that the veteran former champion had just lost.

    Balding is a brilliant broadcaster. And you suspect she will have woken up the next morning thinking it might have been better to at least acknowledge the fact there was a winner - the young Frenchwoman Harmony Tan, making her debut at Wimbledon by beating an all-time great.


    Clare Balding has always had the same flaw — she correctly identifies before the event what is the big story (in this case, Serena Williams' comeback) but rarely changes her stance in the light of results.

    Yep - this has annoyed me mightily this week. The BBC have belatedly discovered Cam Norrie at least -

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/newsround/62000070

    I suspect that whoever wrote this has only just found out themselves...
    Norrie is probably Britain's least celebrated or well-known world-class sports person.
    Nomeron Carrie.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 60,002

    Morning all! With respect to the Brexit making people's lives better / worse and what does it matter now - it matters.

    Quite simply comments like "nobody voted to make their daily lives better" are utterly ignorant of what so many red wall voters expected.

    So it is a serious problem for the government that things have got worse and not better for many of these voters. Yes Covid and Ukraine etc etc but we are talking voters barely engaged with politics. They don't know or care about such details.

    Brexit has failed because the NHS has got worse and prices have gone up and wages haven't. It's that simple. That we can't rejoin any time soon doesn't matter, people won't forget about it and move on. What they will do is hold their new Tory MPs to account...

    Good morning

    The public are angry, frightened and frankly scared and the government simply have no answer to the serious problems it is facing and have toxic Johnson promising much and not delivering

    It does seem the public expect the government to assuage the crisis but do not care or understand that the government can only do that with their taxes which they do not want to pay or see rise

    I really am of the opinion the conservatives are heading out of office, but unfortunately the public will soon find out the alternatives are not any better and most are going to be poorer

    As I reported yesterday the world economies have seen 13 trillion dollars wiped off share values, the worst ever start to a year and seeing falling pension investments, and by the way nothing to do with brexit

    My wife and I are fortunate in so many ways that whatever the make up of the next government it is unlikely to affect us, but I am genuinely sorry for so many who are really suffering and frankly with no end in sight
    Those of us who are comfortably off should be prepared to pay more taxes. It's as simple as that.
    I will pay whatever taxes I am asked to do
    Excellent - could you pay mine please? :D
    Good to lighten the mood and may I politely say no
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,083
    Scott_xP said:

    Tory MPs furious at Chris Pincher (so far) keeping the party whip.

    One says: "They can't see difference between this and the Neil Parish situation in terms of consequences."

    Another adds: "He should never have been appointed to that role - a time bomb waiting to go off."

    https://twitter.com/KevinASchofield/status/1542773497654648833

    Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't (alleged) sexual assault rather more serious than watching porn on your computer at work?
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,019
    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Morning all! With respect to the Brexit making people's lives better / worse and what does it matter now - it matters.

    Quite simply comments like "nobody voted to make their daily lives better" are utterly ignorant of what so many red wall voters expected.

    So it is a serious problem for the government that things have got worse and not better for many of these voters. Yes Covid and Ukraine etc etc but we are talking voters barely engaged with politics. They don't know or care about such details.

    Brexit has failed because the NHS has got worse and prices have gone up and wages haven't. It's that simple. That we can't rejoin any time soon doesn't matter, people won't forget about it and move on. What they will do is hold their new Tory MPs to account...

    Brexit is pretty special in that it hasn’t yet realised any benefit promised or otherwise. The rewriting of history to say that Brexit was never intended to yield benefits doesn’t really wash.
    That simply isn't true.

    We have a more sustainable agricultural and marine conservation policy now, public concern about immigration has a major issue has been killed off, we had a much better Covid vaccine programme, we've been able to adopt a more agile and flexible foreign policy on Ukraine with a firmer line, we've avoided any further drives to political union from Juncker or Von Der Leyen, or directives from Brussels that might target the City.

    Personally, I take it as a huge relief that I don't have to worry about what nonsense comes out of the mouths of the EU Commission, or the integrationist political agenda for the European Council every 6 months, because it doesn't affect me anymore.
    Agriculture is a mess.
    Immigration is not settled.
    The Poles and other Eastern European countries would argue they’ve shown robust support for Ukraine within the EU.
    UK Vaccine policy could have happened inside the EU
    There has been no further political union.

    But I’m glad you feel better.
    Agriculture is not a mess.
    Public concern about immigration has fallen drastically.
    We were able to put in place sanctions much earlier and adopt a robust line that influenced the EU in conjunction with Poland within.
    No it couldn't, this is pure "in theory" stuff whereas in political practice we'd absolutely have signed up to the same EU scheme
    Yes, us leaving has given them reason to pause (not in all areas, I hasten to add) and it would have continued had we stayed.

    You need to get over your simplistic Brexit obsession and ridiculous partisanship.
    Is that the best you have? Good grief, it's worse than I thought.
    No those are all facts.

    You are rattled which is why you responded with such a weak "oh no he didn't" line by line 'rebuttal'.

    You're being made to think on your simple prejudices, which you don't like.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 113,969

    Scott_xP said:

    DougSeal said:
    Having already proven that she knows fuck all about the Culture and Media parts of her brief, it was only fair that Nadine Dorries should do the same for Sport.
    #NadineDorries

    https://twitter.com/Parody_PM/status/1542524706321879040
    Nadine Dorries does seem ignorant and uniquely incurious about her brief, which has led to previous errors on the funding and ownership of Channels 4 and 5, as well as downstreamed movies and tennis pitches.
    I like Nadine. She’s fun and basically a nice person. So rare in politics.

    Not really Cabinet material though…
    A nice person? She smeared Starmer with a vile smear and didn't have the decency to apologise.
  • kjhkjh Posts: 10,458

    kjh said:

    kjh said:

    For me the honest answer I'd have to give is that Brexit has neither made "daily life" better or worse, its pretty indifferent to be honest.

    But that wasn't the point of Brexit.

    I assume you don't travel. Queues, pets, 90 day limit. All impact me, friends and family badly. 3 hour queue in Lisbon, cancelled trip to France as couldn't get dog documents in time, have to plan travelling with a dog weeks/months in advance, 90 day limit completely buggered two friends. One camped in motorhome on son's drive having had to return from EU, another having to go thru hoops re his villa in Portugal and travel limited.
    But, these are the problems of a very lucky few.

    Most people only have 25 days holiday a year and the 90 day limit will never affect them.
    True. Although the queues affect everyone and the pet issue affects anyone with a dog. Also it isn't just the wealthy, but many retired people (ironic really as many voted leave). In my friends case he is not wealthy. He sold his home and bought a motorhome to tour Europe for a few years.
    Good for him, and you can still of course retire in Europe (most people only retire to one country) by meeting their residency requirements and you can still exercise free movement 50% of the time ad-infinitum.

    The case shouldn't be overstated.
    Yes but the point is he had to return to the UK and camp on his son's drive, while looking for a house to rent. To say he is bitter about it is putting it mildly.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 31,718

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Morning all! With respect to the Brexit making people's lives better / worse and what does it matter now - it matters.

    Quite simply comments like "nobody voted to make their daily lives better" are utterly ignorant of what so many red wall voters expected.

    So it is a serious problem for the government that things have got worse and not better for many of these voters. Yes Covid and Ukraine etc etc but we are talking voters barely engaged with politics. They don't know or care about such details.

    Brexit has failed because the NHS has got worse and prices have gone up and wages haven't. It's that simple. That we can't rejoin any time soon doesn't matter, people won't forget about it and move on. What they will do is hold their new Tory MPs to account...

    Brexit is pretty special in that it hasn’t yet realised any benefit promised or otherwise. The rewriting of history to say that Brexit was never intended to yield benefits doesn’t really wash.
    That simply isn't true.

    We have a more sustainable agricultural and marine conservation policy now, public concern about immigration has a major issue has been killed off, we had a much better Covid vaccine programme, we've been able to adopt a more agile and flexible foreign policy on Ukraine with a firmer line, we've avoided any further drives to political union from Juncker or Von Der Leyen, or directives from Brussels that might target the City.

    Personally, I take it as a huge relief that I don't have to worry about what nonsense comes out of the mouths of the EU Commission, or the integrationist political agenda for the European Council every 6 months, because it doesn't affect me anymore.
    Agriculture is a mess.
    Immigration is not settled.
    The Poles and other Eastern European countries would argue they’ve shown robust support for Ukraine within the EU.
    UK Vaccine policy could have happened inside the EU
    There has been no further political union.

    But I’m glad you feel better.
    Agriculture is not a mess.
    Public concern about immigration has fallen drastically.
    We were able to put in place sanctions much earlier and adopt a robust line that influenced the EU in conjunction with Poland within.
    No it couldn't, this is pure "in theory" stuff whereas in political practice we'd absolutely have signed up to the same EU scheme
    Yes, us leaving has given them reason to pause (not in all areas, I hasten to add) and it would have continued had we stayed.

    You need to get over your simplistic Brexit obsession and ridiculous partisanship.
    "Public concern about immigration has fallen drastically."
    Although immigration itself hasn't fallen, as I understand it!
  • Cicero said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Where do they find these people to become tory MPs?

    Is there a special unit dedicated to tracking down people with "problems" and persuading them they should apply to be a MP?

    There were dozens of exemplary Tory MPS expelled by BoZo for being rational and competent.

    He replaced them with sycophants and zealots, many of whom also appear to be in his own image (unfit for office of any kind)
    I know you're desperate to blame all the world's ills on "BoZo" but considering that Pincher has been an MP since 2010, I'm not sure you can blame the fact he's an MP on "BoZo".
    The fact that he was deputy chief whip is entirely the fault of "Bozo". The job is appointed solely by the Prime Minister. Given that we now know Mr. Pincher has both a drinking and a lechery problem, and that the PM was clearly aware of this, it is equally clear that appointing and promoting the Tamworth MP was a severe error of judgement. The problem is that most of Johnson's decisions seem to rely on very poor judgement indeed.
    I'd never heard of him before yesterday but from what I can see, he's been in the whips office since Theresa May was PM though.
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 14,878

    Morning all! With respect to the Brexit making people's lives better / worse and what does it matter now - it matters.

    Quite simply comments like "nobody voted to make their daily lives better" are utterly ignorant of what so many red wall voters expected.

    So it is a serious problem for the government that things have got worse and not better for many of these voters. Yes Covid and Ukraine etc etc but we are talking voters barely engaged with politics. They don't know or care about such details.

    Brexit has failed because the NHS has got worse and prices have gone up and wages haven't. It's that simple. That we can't rejoin any time soon doesn't matter, people won't forget about it and move on. What they will do is hold their new Tory MPs to account...

    Good morning

    The public are angry, frightened and frankly scared and the government simply have no answer to the serious problems it is facing and have toxic Johnson promising much and not delivering

    It does seem the public expect the government to assuage the crisis but do not care or understand that the government can only do that with their taxes which they do not want to pay or see rise

    I really am of the opinion the conservatives are heading out of office, but unfortunately the public will soon find out the alternatives are not any better and most are going to be poorer

    As I reported yesterday the world economies have seen 13 trillion dollars wiped off share values, the worst ever start to a year and seeing falling pension investments, and by the way nothing to do with brexit

    My wife and I are fortunate in so many ways that whatever the make up of the next government it is unlikely to affect us, but I am genuinely sorry for so many who are really suffering and frankly with no end in sight
    Those of us who are comfortably off should be prepared to pay more taxes. It's as simple as that.
    I will pay whatever taxes I am asked to do
    Excellent - could you pay mine please? :D
    Good to lighten the mood and may I politely say no
    Damn - that's wrecked my plan for this financial year!
This discussion has been closed.