I believe the new “in hindsight were we right/wrong to leave the EU” polling has hit a new high in terms of “Wrong”.
34 Right 50 Wrong
That’s 42/58, removing Don’t Knows, had been sitting on 44/56 for quite a while.
Or including don't knows Brexit Wrong just 2% up on the 48% who voted Remain in 2016
Every time you make that claim, someone points out that you can't compare a poll where Leave + Remain have to add up to 100% with a poll where Good + Bad add up to 84%.
But even taking your interpretation at face value, 52% Leave has become 34% right. That's grim.
What the *+%#?! does the UK do if (when) the view of the people settles on "we've made a mistake that can't easily be reversed"? I can't see it being pretty.
Rejoining the single market should be the objective and sooner rather than later
Canada isn't in a single market with the USA.
If we rejoin the single market then there's very little point in being outside the EU. If you accept Brexit then it would be better to accept any short term price that might come from restructuring and get on with things.
But then you have a government telling people to accept the price for doing something they overall don't think is a good idea. Good luck selling that.
The point is- there's no good way forward from here. What I'm wondering is not so much what will happen, but what happens to the psyche of a nation that concludes it has made a mistake but can't/won't do anything about it.
You have to look at other parallels like Suez.
Eventually everyone hops on the new bus and the idiots responsible for the last mess go down in history books as irredeemable clown-tards.
I believe the new “in hindsight were we right/wrong to leave the EU” polling has hit a new high in terms of “Wrong”.
34 Right 50 Wrong
That’s 42/58, removing Don’t Knows, had been sitting on 44/56 for quite a while.
Or including don't knows Brexit Wrong just 2% up on the 48% who voted Remain in 2016
Every time you make that claim, someone points out that you can't compare a poll where Leave + Remain have to add up to 100% with a poll where Good + Bad add up to 84%.
But even taking your interpretation at face value, 52% Leave has become 34% right. That's grim.
What the *+%#?! does the UK do if (when) the view of the people settles on "we've made a mistake that can't easily be reversed"? I can't see it being pretty.
Rejoining the single market should be the objective and sooner rather than later
Canada isn't in a single market with the USA.
If we rejoin the single market then there's very little point in being outside the EU. If you accept Brexit then it would be better to accept any short term price that might come from restructuring and get on with things.
But then you have a government telling people to accept the price for doing something they overall don't think is a good idea. Good luck selling that.
The point is- there's no good way forward from here. What I'm wondering is not so much what will happen, but what happens to the psyche of a nation that concludes it has made a mistake but can't/won't do anything about it.
The only way to improve trade is either re-join the single market or preferable the TPPA
I believe the new “in hindsight were we right/wrong to leave the EU” polling has hit a new high in terms of “Wrong”.
34 Right 50 Wrong
That’s 42/58, removing Don’t Knows, had been sitting on 44/56 for quite a while.
Or including don't knows Brexit Wrong just 2% up on the 48% who voted Remain in 2016
Every time you make that claim, someone points out that you can't compare a poll where Leave + Remain have to add up to 100% with a poll where Good + Bad add up to 84%.
But even taking your interpretation at face value, 52% Leave has become 34% right. That's grim.
What the *+%#?! does the UK do if (when) the view of the people settles on "we've made a mistake that can't easily be reversed"? I can't see it being pretty.
In 2016 of course most DK's went Leave.
Though if Labour want to fight the next general election on a campaign to rejoin the EU and hand the redwall back to Johnson and the Tories on a plate, be my guest
a) You have no idea if that is true. You do understand that opinion polls aren't facts. If they were we wouldn't have to bother with the actual election. They have a margin of error. They are only representative of what people say at that point in time, not what they do at another point in time. A certain percentage will be outside the margin of error
b) What has your 2nd para got to do with what the previous poster said?
I believe the new “in hindsight were we right/wrong to leave the EU” polling has hit a new high in terms of “Wrong”.
34 Right 50 Wrong
That’s 42/58, removing Don’t Knows, had been sitting on 44/56 for quite a while.
Or including don't knows Brexit Wrong just 2% up on the 48% who voted Remain in 2016
This is a deliberately dishonest comparison of apples and oranges.
If you include the DNVs and the spoilt ballot papers from the referendum like you are trying to do with the poll, then under 35% of the electorate voted remain. By your logic 35% Remain has gone up to 50%.
I believe the new “in hindsight were we right/wrong to leave the EU” polling has hit a new high in terms of “Wrong”.
34 Right 50 Wrong
That’s 42/58, removing Don’t Knows, had been sitting on 44/56 for quite a while.
UK and EU politics being what it is there are probably quite a few people who believe it is wrong to leave and wrong to remain and at the same time right to leave and right to remain. I have a lot of sympathy with this Schrodinger like cat/group.
I believe the new “in hindsight were we right/wrong to leave the EU” polling has hit a new high in terms of “Wrong”.
34 Right 50 Wrong
That’s 42/58, removing Don’t Knows, had been sitting on 44/56 for quite a while.
Or including don't knows Brexit Wrong just 2% up on the 48% who voted Remain in 2016
Every time you make that claim, someone points out that you can't compare a poll where Leave + Remain have to add up to 100% with a poll where Good + Bad add up to 84%.
But even taking your interpretation at face value, 52% Leave has become 34% right. That's grim.
What the *+%#?! does the UK do if (when) the view of the people settles on "we've made a mistake that can't easily be reversed"? I can't see it being pretty.
In 2016 of course most DK's went Leave.
Though if Labour want to fight the next general election on a campaign to rejoin the EU and hand the redwall back to Johnson and the Tories on a plate, be my guest
Only SNP and Plaid will be for re-joining, though others may want to benefit from the single market
At a Rugby League World Cup press conference in today's date. Nadine Dorries, sec of state for sport, is special guest. “I’ve always liked the idea of rugby league. That drop goal in 2003 was such a special moment.” That drop goal was actually in the Rugby Union World Cup.
I believe the new “in hindsight were we right/wrong to leave the EU” polling has hit a new high in terms of “Wrong”.
34 Right 50 Wrong
That’s 42/58, removing Don’t Knows, had been sitting on 44/56 for quite a while.
Or including don't knows Brexit Wrong just 2% up on the 48% who voted Remain in 2016
Every time you make that claim, someone points out that you can't compare a poll where Leave + Remain have to add up to 100% with a poll where Good + Bad add up to 84%.
But even taking your interpretation at face value, 52% Leave has become 34% right. That's grim.
What the *+%#?! does the UK do if (when) the view of the people settles on "we've made a mistake that can't easily be reversed"? I can't see it being pretty.
Rejoining the single market should be the objective and sooner rather than later
Canada isn't in a single market with the USA.
If we rejoin the single market then there's very little point in being outside the EU. If you accept Brexit then it would be better to accept any short term price that might come from restructuring and get on with things.
But then you have a government telling people to accept the price for doing something they overall don't think is a good idea. Good luck selling that.
The point is- there's no good way forward from here. What I'm wondering is not so much what will happen, but what happens to the psyche of a nation that concludes it has made a mistake but can't/won't do anything about it.
That relies on the assumption that in 5 years time the public still thinks this was a mistake that needs rectifying. Should the economy stabilise/improve in the medium term, even if you can demonstrate that it was a mistake to leave the single market, I can't see the public wanting to rock the boat. If standards of living are improving again, the public will want to stick with the status quo as changing things will just open wounds or cause more political/economic instability.
Let's not forget that this is not a uniquely British problem either, there's worldwide turbulence at the moment. It's just unfortunate that it's come at the worst possible time for the UK as there's a lot of noise as to what is causing it.
I believe the new “in hindsight were we right/wrong to leave the EU” polling has hit a new high in terms of “Wrong”.
34 Right 50 Wrong
That’s 42/58, removing Don’t Knows, had been sitting on 44/56 for quite a while.
I really do not see the point as we have left , rightly or wrongly, and the question should be how we improve it but with Labour ruling out joining the single market it seems little is going to change anytime soon
It’s useful to track the gradual (and eventually comprehensive) disillusion with the Groundnut Scheme 2.0.
Maybe but it is not finding solutions and the main two parties are not offering them
I believe we should join the single market and I really cannot fathom why Starmer and Lammy have comprehensively ruled it out
Hopefully the lib dems will make it a manifesto commitment
It’s a poll, not a manifesto.
As for the single market, the issue is FOM. Labour can’t go there. Ironically, since immigration seems unabated, it just comes from other places.
Maybe the Lib Dems can, although surely wouldn’t survive any coalition (or similar) commitment except for a general direction of travel.
I believe it is time for the opposition to take a stand on the single market as the Brexit narrative is changing, and not in a good way for the conservatives
Indeed they seem to think their old playbook will be popular, but then change is leaving them marooned in yesterday's arguments when normally the conservatives know how to change and win elections
We need a new word for weathervane: one which has had a gallon of WD40 poured over it and changes direction every time someone so much as breathes over it.
"As a matter of principle, if not economy, the local price should prevail. Please believe me — tipping 15 or 20 percent in Europe is unnecessary, if not culturally ignorant."
Even 10% is showing yourself up as a clueless Bozo.
Some of these Americans would be best advised to stay at home.
You think, as they do, that Europe is homogenous? Tipping rules are the same in Estonia and Portugal?
at least when they travel they are usually capable of leaving the dog at home.
I am not sure why peolple bother responding to HYUFD.
I knew when I posted the original poll he would come out with his dishonest nonsense.
Same with Sandpit and his fact-free nonsense about low skill wage hikes.
You do realise I voted Remain in 2016, however I also respected the result.
For Brexit was wrong let alone Rejoin to still not even get over 50% including don't knows shows little has changed. Plus of course even Starmer has ruled out rejoining the EU and single market as he knows it is political suicide in the redwall
I am not sure why peolple bother responding to HYUFD.
I knew when I posted the original poll he would come out with his dishonest nonsense.
Same with Sandpit and his fact-free nonsense about low skill wage hikes.
You do realise I voted Remain in 2016, however I also respected the result.
For Remain to still not even get over 50% including don't knows shows little has changed. Plus of course even Starmer has ruled out rejoining the EU and single market as he knows it is political suicide in the redwall
Respect for the vote does not require dishonest stat-chopping, or non-sequiturs about Keir Starmer.
I believe the new “in hindsight were we right/wrong to leave the EU” polling has hit a new high in terms of “Wrong”.
34 Right 50 Wrong
That’s 42/58, removing Don’t Knows, had been sitting on 44/56 for quite a while.
Or including don't knows Brexit Wrong just 2% up on the 48% who voted Remain in 2016
Every time you make that claim, someone points out that you can't compare a poll where Leave + Remain have to add up to 100% with a poll where Good + Bad add up to 84%.
But even taking your interpretation at face value, 52% Leave has become 34% right. That's grim.
What the *+%#?! does the UK do if (when) the view of the people settles on "we've made a mistake that can't easily be reversed"? I can't see it being pretty.
Rejoining the single market should be the objective and sooner rather than later
Canada isn't in a single market with the USA.
If we rejoin the single market then there's very little point in being outside the EU. If you accept Brexit then it would be better to accept any short term price that might come from restructuring and get on with things.
But then you have a government telling people to accept the price for doing something they overall don't think is a good idea. Good luck selling that.
The point is- there's no good way forward from here. What I'm wondering is not so much what will happen, but what happens to the psyche of a nation that concludes it has made a mistake but can't/won't do anything about it.
Woah. There's always a way forward.
The UK has a red hot employment market, is a world leader in tech and digital start-ups and has 1st or 2nd position in Europe for foreign investment; it's hugely influential. We're in a good place. Yes, there will be pain and problems caused by Brexit but it's very far from all being caused by them and nor will reversing it solve them all, and indeed will cause many new ones.
Who knows what the future holds but I'm confident it's a bright one and I wouldn't trade our position for that of any country on the continent, including Germany.
I believe the new “in hindsight were we right/wrong to leave the EU” polling has hit a new high in terms of “Wrong”.
34 Right 50 Wrong
That’s 42/58, removing Don’t Knows, had been sitting on 44/56 for quite a while.
Or including don't knows Brexit Wrong just 2% up on the 48% who voted Remain in 2016
Every time you make that claim, someone points out that you can't compare a poll where Leave + Remain have to add up to 100% with a poll where Good + Bad add up to 84%.
But even taking your interpretation at face value, 52% Leave has become 34% right. That's grim.
What the *+%#?! does the UK do if (when) the view of the people settles on "we've made a mistake that can't easily be reversed"? I can't see it being pretty.
In 2016 of course most DK's went Leave.
Though if Labour want to fight the next general election on a campaign to rejoin the EU and hand the redwall back to Johnson and the Tories on a plate, be my guest
Only SNP and Plaid will be for re-joining, though others may want to benefit from the single market
Labour only wants closer regulatory alignment, Starmer has ruled out rejoining and ruled out the single market and free movement
Your quote 20 minutes ago:
'Though if Labour want to fight the next general election on a campaign to rejoin the EU and hand the redwall back to Johnson and the Tories on a plate, be my guest'
and now
'Labour only wants closer regulatory alignment, Starmer has ruled out rejoining and ruled out the single market and free movement'
"As a matter of principle, if not economy, the local price should prevail. Please believe me — tipping 15 or 20 percent in Europe is unnecessary, if not culturally ignorant."
Even 10% is showing yourself up as a clueless Bozo.
Some of these Americans would be best advised to stay at home.
You think, as they do, that Europe is homogenous? Tipping rules are the same in Estonia and Portugal?
at least when they travel they are usually capable of leaving the dog at home.
Their dogs would likely be embarrassed had they come along.
I don't see how. 99% of the cars in Europe won't have a speed limiter either (except possibly one that only DuraAce would reach)
What it will do, presumably, is make it harder to import second-hand cars into Ireland from the UK, as time passes. Given the barriers the Irish government erects to frustrate that trade the only people who will complain will be the poor sods in Ireland forced to pay inflated prices for cars.
If you are a posh woman, it's acceptable to give your married boss a blow job in the office but if you are a working class woman don't even think about going to the opera or having a class of bubbly. https://twitter.com/SiobhanBenita/status/1542521543355379714
I believe the new “in hindsight were we right/wrong to leave the EU” polling has hit a new high in terms of “Wrong”.
34 Right 50 Wrong
That’s 42/58, removing Don’t Knows, had been sitting on 44/56 for quite a while.
I really do not see the point as we have left , rightly or wrongly, and the question should be how we improve it but with Labour ruling out joining the single market it seems little is going to change anytime soon
It’s useful to track the gradual (and eventually comprehensive) disillusion with the Groundnut Scheme 2.0.
Maybe but it is not finding solutions and the main two parties are not offering them
I believe we should join the single market and I really cannot fathom why Starmer and Lammy have comprehensively ruled it out
Hopefully the lib dems will make it a manifesto commitment
It’s a poll, not a manifesto.
As for the single market, the issue is FOM. Labour can’t go there. Ironically, since immigration seems unabated, it just comes from other places.
Maybe the Lib Dems can, although surely wouldn’t survive any coalition (or similar) commitment except for a general direction of travel.
I believe it is time for the opposition to take a stand on the single market as the Brexit narrative is changing, and not in a good way for the conservatives
Indeed they seem to think their old playbook will be popular, but then change is leaving them marooned in yesterday's arguments when normally the conservatives know how to change and win elections
We need a new word for weathervane: one which has had a gallon of WD40 poured over it and changes direction every time someone so much as breathes over it.
The only way either major party is going to pursue SM status is if a) EU has some kind of brainstorm and accepts a member that does not allow unlimited FOM (unlikely but not utterly impossible), or, b) after at least a decade of a failing economy where labour shortages are the main issue (e.g. farming, hospitality etc etc).
There's a fix to be made where EU allow UK SM membership with controls on overall FOM numbers but they wont go there unless something changes in next few years.
At a Rugby League World Cup press conference in today's date. Nadine Dorries, sec of state for sport, is special guest. “I’ve always liked the idea of rugby league. That drop goal in 2003 was such a special moment.” That drop goal was actually in the Rugby Union World Cup.
The UK is going to have to learn to love FOM. It’s not impossible, the UK is generally more liberal on immigration than lots of places.
Those that study these things seem to say quite often that it is the idea of control that matters to voting public. If there is democratic control here in UK on overall numbers then they don't mind.
If you are a posh woman, it's acceptable to give your married boss a blow job in the office but if you are a working class woman don't even think about going to the opera or having a class of bubbly. https://twitter.com/SiobhanBenita/status/1542521543355379714
I wonder if this BJ and his BJ story is going to end up being reported in the main press. I mean if it wasn't true we'd know it already.
The BBC will show highlights of Champions League football for the first time from 2024 after a successful bid in Uefa’s TV rights auction, The Times can reveal.
Amazon Prime will also broadcast some live matches from Uefa’s new-look competition in the UK for the first time with BT Sport retaining the bulk of the TV rights.
The deals are set to be announced by Uefa on Friday and European football’s governing body will benefit from a 15 per cent increase in its income from the UK rights from £1.2 billion for the existing three-year deal to about £1.4 billion from 2024 to 2027, according to sources with knowledge of the negotiations.
The BBC’s package means it will show highlights of Champions League matches on Wednesday nights and will be a coup for the broadcaster which will be able to have a midweek Match of The Day to show clips from the European games, as well as Premier League highlights shows on Saturdays and Sundays.
Sources said the BBC has committed significant resources to bidding for the highlights.
BT Sport is set to form a new joint venture with Warner Bros Discovery, and retaining the Champions League, Europa League and Europa Conference League rights was one of the top priorities for the new venture.
Amazon is set to get the first pick of matches to show live on Tuesday nights and BT Sport will have all the other games and highlights.
The new format of the Champions League means it will expand from 32 to 36 teams under a new “Swiss model” with 189 matches per season compared to the existing 125.
I believe the new “in hindsight were we right/wrong to leave the EU” polling has hit a new high in terms of “Wrong”.
34 Right 50 Wrong
That’s 42/58, removing Don’t Knows, had been sitting on 44/56 for quite a while.
Or including don't knows Brexit Wrong just 2% up on the 48% who voted Remain in 2016
Every time you make that claim, someone points out that you can't compare a poll where Leave + Remain have to add up to 100% with a poll where Good + Bad add up to 84%.
But even taking your interpretation at face value, 52% Leave has become 34% right. That's grim.
What the *+%#?! does the UK do if (when) the view of the people settles on "we've made a mistake that can't easily be reversed"? I can't see it being pretty.
Rejoining the single market should be the objective and sooner rather than later
Canada isn't in a single market with the USA.
If we rejoin the single market then there's very little point in being outside the EU. If you accept Brexit then it would be better to accept any short term price that might come from restructuring and get on with things.
But then you have a government telling people to accept the price for doing something they overall don't think is a good idea. Good luck selling that.
The point is- there's no good way forward from here. What I'm wondering is not so much what will happen, but what happens to the psyche of a nation that concludes it has made a mistake but can't/won't do anything about it.
That relies on the assumption that in 5 years time the public still thinks this was a mistake that needs rectifying. Should the economy stabilise/improve in the medium term, even if you can demonstrate that it was a mistake to leave the single market, I can't see the public wanting to rock the boat. If standards of living are improving again, the public will want to stick with the status quo as changing things will just open wounds or cause more political/economic instability.
Let's not forget that this is not a uniquely British problem either, there's worldwide turbulence at the moment. It's just unfortunate that it's come at the worst possible time for the UK as there's a lot of noise as to what is causing it.
The UK is going to have to learn to love FOM. It’s not impossible, the UK is generally more liberal on immigration than lots of places.
Those that study these things seem to say quite often that it is the idea of control that matters to voting public. If there is democratic control here in UK on overall numbers then they don't mind.
I'm sceptical to be honest.
I’m not at all convinced by that.
Evidence also shows that concern with immigration directly follows the amount of attention paid by the right-wing tabloids.
In my opinion the UK is *still* not honest about immigration. Numbers are high, and by no means are they all skilled. They are also, frankly, coming from less assimilable places.
The government is playing catch up trying to respond to disastrous labour shortages and so is binging anything short of “bottle-washer” on the desired occupations list.
If you are a posh woman, it's acceptable to give your married boss a blow job in the office but if you are a working class woman don't even think about going to the opera or having a class of bubbly. https://twitter.com/SiobhanBenita/status/1542521543355379714
I wonder if this BJ and his BJ story is going to end up being reported in the main press. I mean if it wasn't true we'd know it already.
The problem is not the BJ, which it would be churlish to obsess about.
It’s the fact that he tried to give his mistress a range of government jobs.
Your wages reference is a year old, is from renowned Brexitard Larry Elliott, and offers no data except a reference to sign-on bonus offered by Tesco during that truck driver shortage.
The actual wage data shows no spike for low skilled workers.
There's a lot (and I mean a lot) about the way we have gone about leaving the EU and the post-EU arrangements which in my view which has been stupid, short-sighted or so riddled with arcane notions of sovereignty, "leverage" and seeking dubious advantage as to be borderline malevolent.
All of that said, we couldn't go on as we were - there were only two credible positions, either we were enthusiastically members which meant adopting the Euro, Schengen and all the rest which we could have done (I'm NOT saying "should") and which in turn would have altered the dynamic of the EU or we stood on the outside wishing it well, looking for a mutually beneficial economic and trading relationship but not getting politically involved.
Instead, incredibly, we did neither. We embarked on a half-hearted, mean-spirited, penny-pinching, griping, moaning membership - endlessly complaining and rarely, if ever, trying to set the agenda. That was the fault of successive Governments over 50 years - it's little wonder both the British people and the EU got fed up.
So we're out and we have to make it work and we have to ask the hard questions about our role in the world which we've probably dodged since 1945 (certainly since Suez and arguably fudged during our EU membership).
While I would not wish the human misery and suffering of the Ukraine on anyone, one by-product has been to re-energise "the West" with a new sense of purpose which arguably it had lacked since the USSR collapsed. It has given the UK a new sense of a role in the western alliance and has re-energised NATO. That said, the world isn't either Europe or NATO and we have to be an economic power in Latin America, the Far East and the Indian Sub-Continent all areas of economic potential and challenge.
The failure to really flesh out what "Global Britain" means (beyond a cheap slogan) has left the future uncertain - we can't just be a place for the mega-wealthy to buy houses, drive fast cars and shop. Our lot cannot just be a servants of mega-wealth yet the pandemic has also set in train other forces.
As I argued last night, the pandemic forced some to question the viability of their work-life existence and for them a life without work isn't the nightmare we were conditioned to believe. Indeed, there are those who have moved beyond the old adage of "you work to live, you don't live to work" and especially if materially capable and able have turned their back on the working life in search of something else.
The post-work world is one which I think will develop and grow in the next few decades as more and more seek a life meaning beyond the "eat, work, sleep, repeat" mantra of past decades.
It’s honestly weird. I sit outside halfbollock naked (sorry) every evening, and I’ve been bitten maybe once in 5 days
Is it the karst landscape? It is definitely a thing
Which makes me wonder. Is this it? Have I found the perfect place, at last? Beautiful stark mountains descending to warm clean Mediterranean seas. Cypresses and umbrella pines. Lovely women. Beautiful medieval villages. Friendly people. Lovely women. Grandiose national parks just beyond the coast. Did I mention the women? Not so many tourists outside Kotor. THE WOMEN
In fact, it isn’t paradise. The food is meh and the roads are crazy and it must be dull as dung in winter, and corruption is a major issue
But a little corner of the world to have an apartment by the sea? Hmmmm
It’s honestly weird. I sit outside halfbollock naked (sorry) every evening, and I’ve been bitten maybe once in 5 days
Is it the karst landscape? It is definitely a thing
Which makes me wonder. Is this it? Have I found the perfect place, at last? Beautiful stark mountains descending to warm clean Mediterranean seas. Cypresses and umbrella pines. Lovely women. Beautiful medieval villages. Friendly people. Lovely women. Grandiose national parks just beyond the coast. Did I mention the women? Not so many tourists outside Kotor. THE WOMEN
In fact, it isn’t paradise. The food is meh and the roads are crazy and it must be dull as dung in winter, and corruption is a major issue
But a little corner of the world to have an apartment by the sea? Hmmmm
If it is so fascinating on a first visit, why spend all day on PB?
If you are a posh woman, it's acceptable to give your married boss a blow job in the office but if you are a working class woman don't even think about going to the opera or having a class of bubbly. https://twitter.com/SiobhanBenita/status/1542521543355379714
I wonder if this BJ and his BJ story is going to end up being reported in the main press. I mean if it wasn't true we'd know it already.
The problem is not the BJ, which it would be churlish to obsess about.
It’s the fact that he tried to give his mistress a range of government jobs.
Blow it, I have been trying to follow this story but have now lost track of who was giving who the job.
I believe the new “in hindsight were we right/wrong to leave the EU” polling has hit a new high in terms of “Wrong”.
34 Right 50 Wrong
That’s 42/58, removing Don’t Knows, had been sitting on 44/56 for quite a while.
Or including don't knows Brexit Wrong just 2% up on the 48% who voted Remain in 2016
Every time you make that claim, someone points out that you can't compare a poll where Leave + Remain have to add up to 100% with a poll where Good + Bad add up to 84%.
But even taking your interpretation at face value, 52% Leave has become 34% right. That's grim.
What the *+%#?! does the UK do if (when) the view of the people settles on "we've made a mistake that can't easily be reversed"? I can't see it being pretty.
Rejoining the single market should be the objective and sooner rather than later
Canada isn't in a single market with the USA.
If we rejoin the single market then there's very little point in being outside the EU. If you accept Brexit then it would be better to accept any short term price that might come from restructuring and get on with things.
But then you have a government telling people to accept the price for doing something they overall don't think is a good idea. Good luck selling that.
The point is- there's no good way forward from here. What I'm wondering is not so much what will happen, but what happens to the psyche of a nation that concludes it has made a mistake but can't/won't do anything about it.
A scapegoat has to be found. The problem for Remainers is that they're still essentially saying "I told you so" which is asking people to blame themselves for making the mistake of voting Leave.
Psychologically I think people will prefer to find any alternative explanation to blaming themselves. So the likely outcome is that they will blame the scapegoat offered to them by Leavers. It will be the stab in the back myth. Pretty ugly prospect.
It’s honestly weird. I sit outside halfbollock naked (sorry) every evening, and I’ve been bitten maybe once in 5 days
Is it the karst landscape? It is definitely a thing
Which makes me wonder. Is this it? Have I found the perfect place, at last? Beautiful stark mountains descending to warm clean Mediterranean seas. Cypresses and umbrella pines. Lovely women. Beautiful medieval villages. Friendly people. Lovely women. Grandiose national parks just beyond the coast. Did I mention the women? Not so many tourists outside Kotor. THE WOMEN
In fact, it isn’t paradise. The food is meh and the roads are crazy and it must be dull as dung in winter, and corruption is a major issue
But a little corner of the world to have an apartment by the sea? Hmmmm
If it is so fascinating on a first visit, why spend all day on PB?
If you are a posh woman, it's acceptable to give your married boss a blow job in the office but if you are a working class woman don't even think about going to the opera or having a class of bubbly. https://twitter.com/SiobhanBenita/status/1542521543355379714
I wonder if this BJ and his BJ story is going to end up being reported in the main press. I mean if it wasn't true we'd know it already.
The problem is not the BJ, which it would be churlish to obsess about.
It’s the fact that he tried to give his mistress a range of government jobs.
Blow it, I have been trying to follow this story but have now lost track of who was giving who the job.
It’s honestly weird. I sit outside halfbollock naked (sorry) every evening, and I’ve been bitten maybe once in 5 days
Is it the karst landscape? It is definitely a thing
Which makes me wonder. Is this it? Have I found the perfect place, at last? Beautiful stark mountains descending to warm clean Mediterranean seas. Cypresses and umbrella pines. Lovely women. Beautiful medieval villages. Friendly people. Lovely women. Grandiose national parks just beyond the coast. Did I mention the women? Not so many tourists outside Kotor. THE WOMEN
In fact, it isn’t paradise. The food is meh and the roads are crazy and it must be dull as dung in winter, and corruption is a major issue
But a little corner of the world to have an apartment by the sea? Hmmmm
Might be best NOT to inform locals of fact that your Prime Minister had a Turkish great-grandfather, Ali Kemal.
Who (according to his wiki entry) called for Ottoman Empire to declare war against the Balkan League in October 1912; five days later Montenegro declared war against the Ottomans, sparking First Balkan War.
I believe the new “in hindsight were we right/wrong to leave the EU” polling has hit a new high in terms of “Wrong”.
34 Right 50 Wrong
That’s 42/58, removing Don’t Knows, had been sitting on 44/56 for quite a while.
Or including don't knows Brexit Wrong just 2% up on the 48% who voted Remain in 2016
Every time you make that claim, someone points out that you can't compare a poll where Leave + Remain have to add up to 100% with a poll where Good + Bad add up to 84%.
But even taking your interpretation at face value, 52% Leave has become 34% right. That's grim.
What the *+%#?! does the UK do if (when) the view of the people settles on "we've made a mistake that can't easily be reversed"? I can't see it being pretty.
Rejoining the single market should be the objective and sooner rather than later
Canada isn't in a single market with the USA.
If we rejoin the single market then there's very little point in being outside the EU. If you accept Brexit then it would be better to accept any short term price that might come from restructuring and get on with things.
But then you have a government telling people to accept the price for doing something they overall don't think is a good idea. Good luck selling that.
The point is- there's no good way forward from here. What I'm wondering is not so much what will happen, but what happens to the psyche of a nation that concludes it has made a mistake but can't/won't do anything about it.
A scapegoat has to be found. The problem for Remainers is that they're still essentially saying "I told you so" which is asking people to blame themselves for making the mistake of voting Leave. I
Psychologically I think people will prefer to find any alternative explanation to blaming themselves. So the likely outcome is that they will blame the scapegoat offered to them by Leavers. It will be the stab in the back myth. Pretty ugly prospect.
The culprits are a bunch of privately educated blaggers and chancers.
David Cameron. Nigel Farage. Boris Johnson. Jacob Rees-Mogg. Daniel Hannan.
Ironic, as Brexit is essentially a lower middle class, Tebbity-nostalgic, affliction.
The BBC will show highlights of Champions League football for the first time from 2024 after a successful bid in Uefa’s TV rights auction, The Times can reveal.
Amazon Prime will also broadcast some live matches from Uefa’s new-look competition in the UK for the first time with BT Sport retaining the bulk of the TV rights.
The deals are set to be announced by Uefa on Friday and European football’s governing body will benefit from a 15 per cent increase in its income from the UK rights from £1.2 billion for the existing three-year deal to about £1.4 billion from 2024 to 2027, according to sources with knowledge of the negotiations.
The BBC’s package means it will show highlights of Champions League matches on Wednesday nights and will be a coup for the broadcaster which will be able to have a midweek Match of The Day to show clips from the European games, as well as Premier League highlights shows on Saturdays and Sundays.
Sources said the BBC has committed significant resources to bidding for the highlights.
BT Sport is set to form a new joint venture with Warner Bros Discovery, and retaining the Champions League, Europa League and Europa Conference League rights was one of the top priorities for the new venture.
Amazon is set to get the first pick of matches to show live on Tuesday nights and BT Sport will have all the other games and highlights.
The new format of the Champions League means it will expand from 32 to 36 teams under a new “Swiss model” with 189 matches per season compared to the existing 125.
So the Govt freezes the BBC Licence fee for two years and there is endless screaming about the Govt attacking the BBC, cuts etc.
And guess what happens next?
The BBC is so hard up that it's just bought the rights to show highlights of the Champions League for the first time ever!
The Govt could have been much, much tougher.
Cameron froze the LF for six years, this Govt should certainly have frozen it for more than two.
Highlights, not live matches.
I know - I said highlights!
Of course it's only highlights - live games would have cost way, way too much.
But it's still a notable additional cost being taken on for the first time which they could easily have managed without. Thus showing that they still have more money than they need.
I am mildly obsessed with sunshine hours (as weather affects my mood quite a lot, and I am prone to moods)
The USA enjoys vastly more sunshine than Europe. It is one of the reasons I used to think about moving there, but not any more, the American negatives now significantly outweigh the positives (for me, personally. as a Brit)
The ideal one should seek (as a sun lover) is desert-like hours of sunshine but with a fertile and seasonal climate. The eastern Adriatic coast gets quite close to that ideal
I am mildly obsessed with sunshine hours (as weather affects my mood quite a lot, and I am prone to moods)
The USA enjoys vastly more sunshine than Europe. It is one of the reasons I used to think about moving there, but not any more, the American negatives now significantly outweigh the positives (for me, personally. as a Brit)
The ideal one should seek (as a sun lover) is desert-like hours of sunshine but with a fertile and seasonal climate. The eastern Adriatic coast gets quite close to that ideal
Me too (sun hour obsession) once I realised why British winters got me down. It’s not the cold, it’s the gloom.
I’m now looking for a place in Europe that near-replicates the climate I grew up with. I think northern Portugal or Galicia.
I am mildly obsessed with sunshine hours (as weather affects my mood quite a lot, and I am prone to moods)
The USA enjoys vastly more sunshine than Europe. It is one of the reasons I used to think about moving there, but not any more, the American negatives now significantly outweigh the positives (for me, personally. as a Brit)
The ideal one should seek (as a sun lover) is desert-like hours of sunshine but with a fertile and seasonal climate. The eastern Adriatic coast gets quite close to that ideal
In the US you just have to worry about those few times when it isn’t sunny, since the chance is high that your home is being destroyed by some other type of weather event.
It’s honestly weird. I sit outside halfbollock naked (sorry) every evening, and I’ve been bitten maybe once in 5 days
Is it the karst landscape? It is definitely a thing
Which makes me wonder. Is this it? Have I found the perfect place, at last? Beautiful stark mountains descending to warm clean Mediterranean seas. Cypresses and umbrella pines. Lovely women. Beautiful medieval villages. Friendly people. Lovely women. Grandiose national parks just beyond the coast. Did I mention the women? Not so many tourists outside Kotor. THE WOMEN
In fact, it isn’t paradise. The food is meh and the roads are crazy and it must be dull as dung in winter, and corruption is a major issue
But a little corner of the world to have an apartment by the sea? Hmmmm
If it is so fascinating on a first visit, why spend all day on PB?
Because Leon is more than one man: he can multitask. Whilst Leon types on PB like a one-handed Sallie's Monkey, Lady_G is entertaining the local whores, SeanT is in a drugged stupour in a ditch, whilst another, yet unknown version enjoys the holiday.
I am mildly obsessed with sunshine hours (as weather affects my mood quite a lot, and I am prone to moods)
The USA enjoys vastly more sunshine than Europe. It is one of the reasons I used to think about moving there, but not any more, the American negatives now significantly outweigh the positives (for me, personally. as a Brit)
The ideal one should seek (as a sun lover) is desert-like hours of sunshine but with a fertile and seasonal climate. The eastern Adriatic coast gets quite close to that ideal
Me too (sun hour obsession) once I realised why British winters got me down. It’s not the cold, it’s the gloom.
I’m now looking for a place in Europe that near-replicates the climate I grew up with. I think northern Portugal or Galicia.
Probably rainy, but I don’t mind the rain.
Not keen on rain either, personally (Why, God, was i born in England???) but I do like green hills and trees, I don’t want a desert
Northern Portugal is a good bet (and it is still quite cheap, at least inland). Even if global warming spirals out of control Porto and environs will likely remain pleasantly habitable for the rest of your lifetime
Southern Spain, hmm, not so much
Portuguese food is a bit rubbish tho, once you get beyond the sardines and the cataplana. Galician food is much more inventive
So the Govt freezes the BBC Licence fee for two years and there is endless screaming about the Govt attacking the BBC, cuts etc.
And guess what happens next?
The BBC is so hard up that it's just bought the rights to show highlights of the Champions League for the first time ever!
The Govt could have been much, much tougher.
Cameron froze the LF for six years, this Govt should certainly have frozen it for more than two.
Highlights, not live matches.
I know - I said highlights!
Of course it's only highlights - live games would have cost way, way too much.
But it's still a notable additional cost being taken on for the first time which they could easily have managed without. Thus showing that they still have more money than they need.
It doesn't make any sense. Our national broadcaster should try to make sure that national sporting events are available to watch on normal TV, things that are part of our British culture like the FA Cup, Wimbledon, Ascot, Henley and Test Matches. But the Champions League not really.
There are regular updates on this story on RTÉ, who describe it as, "the largest adult safeguarding scandal in NHS history," but I've not seen or heard anything about it in the London media.
So the Govt freezes the BBC Licence fee for two years and there is endless screaming about the Govt attacking the BBC, cuts etc.
And guess what happens next?
The BBC is so hard up that it's just bought the rights to show highlights of the Champions League for the first time ever!
The Govt could have been much, much tougher.
Cameron froze the LF for six years, this Govt should certainly have frozen it for more than two.
Highlights, not live matches.
I know - I said highlights!
Of course it's only highlights - live games would have cost way, way too much.
But it's still a notable additional cost being taken on for the first time which they could easily have managed without. Thus showing that they still have more money than they need.
Yes but this level of debate is silly — the BBC is spending money on something I don't approve of, be it this or Eastenders or Radio One. The BBC is in the business of showing sport; this is sport. Inform, educate and entertain. We await the details but a highlights package is unlikely to break the bank.
ETA and yes it may be an additional cost but that is true of any new drama series.
I am mildly obsessed with sunshine hours (as weather affects my mood quite a lot, and I am prone to moods)
The USA enjoys vastly more sunshine than Europe. It is one of the reasons I used to think about moving there, but not any more, the American negatives now significantly outweigh the positives (for me, personally. as a Brit)
The ideal one should seek (as a sun lover) is desert-like hours of sunshine but with a fertile and seasonal climate. The eastern Adriatic coast gets quite close to that ideal
Me too (sun hour obsession) once I realised why British winters got me down. It’s not the cold, it’s the gloom.
I’m now looking for a place in Europe that near-replicates the climate I grew up with. I think northern Portugal or Galicia.
Probably rainy, but I don’t mind the rain.
Not keen on rain either, personally (Why, God, was i born in England???) but I do like green hills and trees, I don’t want a desert
Northern Portugal is a good bet (and it is still quite cheap, at least inland). Even if global warming spirals out of control Porto and environs will likely remain pleasantly habitable for the rest of your lifetime
Southern Spain, hmm, not so much
Portuguese food is a bit rubbish tho, once you get beyond the sardines and the cataplana. Galician food is much more inventive
The BBC will show highlights of Champions League football for the first time from 2024 after a successful bid in Uefa’s TV rights auction, The Times can reveal.
Amazon Prime will also broadcast some live matches from Uefa’s new-look competition in the UK for the first time with BT Sport retaining the bulk of the TV rights.
The deals are set to be announced by Uefa on Friday and European football’s governing body will benefit from a 15 per cent increase in its income from the UK rights from £1.2 billion for the existing three-year deal to about £1.4 billion from 2024 to 2027, according to sources with knowledge of the negotiations.
The BBC’s package means it will show highlights of Champions League matches on Wednesday nights and will be a coup for the broadcaster which will be able to have a midweek Match of The Day to show clips from the European games, as well as Premier League highlights shows on Saturdays and Sundays.
Sources said the BBC has committed significant resources to bidding for the highlights.
BT Sport is set to form a new joint venture with Warner Bros Discovery, and retaining the Champions League, Europa League and Europa Conference League rights was one of the top priorities for the new venture.
Amazon is set to get the first pick of matches to show live on Tuesday nights and BT Sport will have all the other games and highlights.
The new format of the Champions League means it will expand from 32 to 36 teams under a new “Swiss model” with 189 matches per season compared to the existing 125.
So the Govt freezes the BBC Licence fee for two years and there is endless screaming about the Govt attacking the BBC, cuts etc.
And guess what happens next?
The BBC is so hard up that it's just bought the rights to show highlights of the Champions League for the first time ever!
The Govt could have been much, much tougher.
Cameron froze the LF for six years, this Govt should certainly have frozen it for more than two.
Highlights, not live matches.
I know - I said highlights!
Of course it's only highlights - live games would have cost way, way too much.
But it's still a notable additional cost being taken on for the first time which they could easily have managed without. Thus showing that they still have more money than they need.
Yes but this level of debate is silly — the BBC is spending money on something I don't approve of, be it this or Eastenders or Radio One. The BBC is in the business of showing sport; this is sport. Inform, educate and entertain. We await the details but a highlights package is unlikely to break the bank.
ETA and yes it may be an additional cost but that is true of any new drama series.
They could go the efficiency route and have storylines where Eastenders characters listen to Champions League highlights on Radio 1.
There's a lot (and I mean a lot) about the way we have gone about leaving the EU and the post-EU arrangements which in my view which has been stupid, short-sighted or so riddled with arcane notions of sovereignty, "leverage" and seeking dubious advantage as to be borderline malevolent.
All of that said, we couldn't go on as we were - there were only two credible positions, either we were enthusiastically members which meant adopting the Euro, Schengen and all the rest which we could have done (I'm NOT saying "should") and which in turn would have altered the dynamic of the EU or we stood on the outside wishing it well, looking for a mutually beneficial economic and trading relationship but not getting politically involved.
Instead, incredibly, we did neither. We embarked on a half-hearted, mean-spirited, penny-pinching, griping, moaning membership - endlessly complaining and rarely, if ever, trying to set the agenda. That was the fault of successive Governments over 50 years - it's little wonder both the British people and the EU got fed up.
So we're out and we have to make it work and we have to ask the hard questions about our role in the world which we've probably dodged since 1945 (certainly since Suez and arguably fudged during our EU membership).
While I would not wish the human misery and suffering of the Ukraine on anyone, one by-product has been to re-energise "the West" with a new sense of purpose which arguably it had lacked since the USSR collapsed. It has given the UK a new sense of a role in the western alliance and has re-energised NATO. That said, the world isn't either Europe or NATO and we have to be an economic power in Latin America, the Far East and the Indian Sub-Continent all areas of economic potential and challenge.
The failure to really flesh out what "Global Britain" means (beyond a cheap slogan) has left the future uncertain - we can't just be a place for the mega-wealthy to buy houses, drive fast cars and shop. Our lot cannot just be a servants of mega-wealth yet the pandemic has also set in train other forces.
As I argued last night, the pandemic forced some to question the viability of their work-life existence and for them a life without work isn't the nightmare we were conditioned to believe. Indeed, there are those who have moved beyond the old adage of "you work to live, you don't live to work" and especially if materially capable and able have turned their back on the working life in search of something else.
The post-work world is one which I think will develop and grow in the next few decades as more and more seek a life meaning beyond the "eat, work, sleep, repeat" mantra of past decades.
I don't remember the EU being especially fed up, and I've always read a lot of Continental papers. Frankly they didn't talk about Britain nearly as much as most people imagine. Even among the leaders, they were used to having members with off-centre views and some - Hungary, Poland - worry them much more than the UK ever did.
I think we got fed up with ourselves, as you describe, feeling that half-hearted membership was just tiresome. But IMO we could have continued it indefinitely with few serious Continental complaints. It wasn't especially broken, and I think we made a mistake in thinking we had to leave or embrace everything. Muddling through was a perfectly adequate strategy which arguably was acftually our best bet.
There are regular updates on this story on RTÉ, who describe it as, "the largest adult safeguarding scandal in NHS history," but I've not seen or heard anything about it in the London media.
The BBC will show highlights of Champions League football for the first time from 2024 after a successful bid in Uefa’s TV rights auction, The Times can reveal.
Amazon Prime will also broadcast some live matches from Uefa’s new-look competition in the UK for the first time with BT Sport retaining the bulk of the TV rights.
The deals are set to be announced by Uefa on Friday and European football’s governing body will benefit from a 15 per cent increase in its income from the UK rights from £1.2 billion for the existing three-year deal to about £1.4 billion from 2024 to 2027, according to sources with knowledge of the negotiations.
The BBC’s package means it will show highlights of Champions League matches on Wednesday nights and will be a coup for the broadcaster which will be able to have a midweek Match of The Day to show clips from the European games, as well as Premier League highlights shows on Saturdays and Sundays.
Sources said the BBC has committed significant resources to bidding for the highlights.
BT Sport is set to form a new joint venture with Warner Bros Discovery, and retaining the Champions League, Europa League and Europa Conference League rights was one of the top priorities for the new venture.
Amazon is set to get the first pick of matches to show live on Tuesday nights and BT Sport will have all the other games and highlights.
The new format of the Champions League means it will expand from 32 to 36 teams under a new “Swiss model” with 189 matches per season compared to the existing 125.
Re: Rick Steves & Kotor Bay, note the quote posted by Ianbeetoo, published in Smithsonian Magazine in 2010, is also currently available - without any date - on RS's website under "Rick's Travel Articles"
Which is NOT same thing as validating him as 100% (or more) responsible for influx of Ugly Americans which for I (as opposed to me) are 100% (or more) of us (also US).
There's a lot (and I mean a lot) about the way we have gone about leaving the EU and the post-EU arrangements which in my view which has been stupid, short-sighted or so riddled with arcane notions of sovereignty, "leverage" and seeking dubious advantage as to be borderline malevolent.
All of that said, we couldn't go on as we were - there were only two credible positions, either we were enthusiastically members which meant adopting the Euro, Schengen and all the rest which we could have done (I'm NOT saying "should") and which in turn would have altered the dynamic of the EU or we stood on the outside wishing it well, looking for a mutually beneficial economic and trading relationship but not getting politically involved.
Instead, incredibly, we did neither. We embarked on a half-hearted, mean-spirited, penny-pinching, griping, moaning membership - endlessly complaining and rarely, if ever, trying to set the agenda. That was the fault of successive Governments over 50 years - it's little wonder both the British people and the EU got fed up.
So we're out and we have to make it work and we have to ask the hard questions about our role in the world which we've probably dodged since 1945 (certainly since Suez and arguably fudged during our EU membership).
While I would not wish the human misery and suffering of the Ukraine on anyone, one by-product has been to re-energise "the West" with a new sense of purpose which arguably it had lacked since the USSR collapsed. It has given the UK a new sense of a role in the western alliance and has re-energised NATO. That said, the world isn't either Europe or NATO and we have to be an economic power in Latin America, the Far East and the Indian Sub-Continent all areas of economic potential and challenge.
The failure to really flesh out what "Global Britain" means (beyond a cheap slogan) has left the future uncertain - we can't just be a place for the mega-wealthy to buy houses, drive fast cars and shop. Our lot cannot just be a servants of mega-wealth yet the pandemic has also set in train other forces.
As I argued last night, the pandemic forced some to question the viability of their work-life existence and for them a life without work isn't the nightmare we were conditioned to believe. Indeed, there are those who have moved beyond the old adage of "you work to live, you don't live to work" and especially if materially capable and able have turned their back on the working life in search of something else.
The post-work world is one which I think will develop and grow in the next few decades as more and more seek a life meaning beyond the "eat, work, sleep, repeat" mantra of past decades.
I don't remember the EU being especially fed up, and I've always read a lot of Continental papers. Frankly they didn't talk about Britain nearly as much as most people imagine. Even among the leaders, they were used to having members with off-centre views and some - Hungary, Poland - worry them much more than the UK ever did.
I think we got fed up with ourselves, as you describe, feeling that half-hearted membership was just tiresome. But IMO we could have continued it indefinitely with few serious Continental complaints. It wasn't especially broken, and I think we made a mistake in thinking we had to leave or embrace everything. Muddling through was a perfectly adequate strategy which arguably was acftually our best bet.
People say that Cameron's renegotiation was terrible, but I don't think it was at all
"What Cameron wanted: a declaration that the treaty motto of “ever closer union among the peoples of Europe” did not apply to the UK. EU leaders had already agreed a special formula of wording in June 2014 that not all member states were on the road to integration, but Cameron wanted something stronger.
What he’s got: Much more emphatic language, stressing that the UK is not on the road to deeper integration. “It is recognised that the United Kingdom ... is not committed to further political integration in the European Union ... References to ever-closer union do not apply to the United Kingdom.”"
This was brilliant. We could have stayed in the EU without joining the Euro or Schengen and rejected anything else that led to "Ever closer union". But we threw it all away.
I am mildly obsessed with sunshine hours (as weather affects my mood quite a lot, and I am prone to moods)
The USA enjoys vastly more sunshine than Europe. It is one of the reasons I used to think about moving there, but not any more, the American negatives now significantly outweigh the positives (for me, personally. as a Brit)
The ideal one should seek (as a sun lover) is desert-like hours of sunshine but with a fertile and seasonal climate. The eastern Adriatic coast gets quite close to that ideal
Me too (sun hour obsession) once I realised why British winters got me down. It’s not the cold, it’s the gloom.
I’m now looking for a place in Europe that near-replicates the climate I grew up with. I think northern Portugal or Galicia.
Probably rainy, but I don’t mind the rain.
Not keen on rain either, personally (Why, God, was i born in England???) but I do like green hills and trees, I don’t want a desert
Northern Portugal is a good bet (and it is still quite cheap, at least inland). Even if global warming spirals out of control Porto and environs will likely remain pleasantly habitable for the rest of your lifetime
Southern Spain, hmm, not so much
Portuguese food is a bit rubbish tho, once you get beyond the sardines and the cataplana. Galician food is much more inventive
There's a lot (and I mean a lot) about the way we have gone about leaving the EU and the post-EU arrangements which in my view which has been stupid, short-sighted or so riddled with arcane notions of sovereignty, "leverage" and seeking dubious advantage as to be borderline malevolent.
All of that said, we couldn't go on as we were - there were only two credible positions, either we were enthusiastically members which meant adopting the Euro, Schengen and all the rest which we could have done (I'm NOT saying "should") and which in turn would have altered the dynamic of the EU or we stood on the outside wishing it well, looking for a mutually beneficial economic and trading relationship but not getting politically involved.
Instead, incredibly, we did neither. We embarked on a half-hearted, mean-spirited, penny-pinching, griping, moaning membership - endlessly complaining and rarely, if ever, trying to set the agenda. That was the fault of successive Governments over 50 years - it's little wonder both the British people and the EU got fed up.
So we're out and we have to make it work and we have to ask the hard questions about our role in the world which we've probably dodged since 1945 (certainly since Suez and arguably fudged during our EU membership).
While I would not wish the human misery and suffering of the Ukraine on anyone, one by-product has been to re-energise "the West" with a new sense of purpose which arguably it had lacked since the USSR collapsed. It has given the UK a new sense of a role in the western alliance and has re-energised NATO. That said, the world isn't either Europe or NATO and we have to be an economic power in Latin America, the Far East and the Indian Sub-Continent all areas of economic potential and challenge.
The failure to really flesh out what "Global Britain" means (beyond a cheap slogan) has left the future uncertain - we can't just be a place for the mega-wealthy to buy houses, drive fast cars and shop. Our lot cannot just be a servants of mega-wealth yet the pandemic has also set in train other forces.
As I argued last night, the pandemic forced some to question the viability of their work-life existence and for them a life without work isn't the nightmare we were conditioned to believe. Indeed, there are those who have moved beyond the old adage of "you work to live, you don't live to work" and especially if materially capable and able have turned their back on the working life in search of something else.
The post-work world is one which I think will develop and grow in the next few decades as more and more seek a life meaning beyond the "eat, work, sleep, repeat" mantra of past decades.
I don't remember the EU being especially fed up, and I've always read a lot of Continental papers. Frankly they didn't talk about Britain nearly as much as most people imagine. Even among the leaders, they were used to having members with off-centre views and some - Hungary, Poland - worry them much more than the UK ever did.
I think we got fed up with ourselves, as you describe, feeling that half-hearted membership was just tiresome. But IMO we could have continued it indefinitely with few serious Continental complaints. It wasn't especially broken, and I think we made a mistake in thinking we had to leave or embrace everything. Muddling through was a perfectly adequate strategy which arguably was acftually our best bet.
People say that Cameron's renegotiation was terrible, but I don't think it was at all
"What Cameron wanted: a declaration that the treaty motto of “ever closer union among the peoples of Europe” did not apply to the UK. EU leaders had already agreed a special formula of wording in June 2014 that not all member states were on the road to integration, but Cameron wanted something stronger.
What he’s got: Much more emphatic language, stressing that the UK is not on the road to deeper integration. “It is recognised that the United Kingdom ... is not committed to further political integration in the European Union ... References to ever-closer union do not apply to the United Kingdom.”"
This was brilliant. We could have stayed in the EU without joining the Euro or Schengen and rejected anything else that led to "Ever closer union". But we threw it all away.
Just think of those underpowered vacuum cleaners and it will all become worth it.
I am mildly obsessed with sunshine hours (as weather affects my mood quite a lot, and I am prone to moods)
The USA enjoys vastly more sunshine than Europe. It is one of the reasons I used to think about moving there, but not any more, the American negatives now significantly outweigh the positives (for me, personally. as a Brit)
The ideal one should seek (as a sun lover) is desert-like hours of sunshine but with a fertile and seasonal climate. The eastern Adriatic coast gets quite close to that ideal
Me too (sun hour obsession) once I realised why British winters got me down. It’s not the cold, it’s the gloom.
I’m now looking for a place in Europe that near-replicates the climate I grew up with. I think northern Portugal or Galicia.
Probably rainy, but I don’t mind the rain.
Not keen on rain either, personally (Why, God, was i born in England???) but I do like green hills and trees, I don’t want a desert
Northern Portugal is a good bet (and it is still quite cheap, at least inland). Even if global warming spirals out of control Porto and environs will likely remain pleasantly habitable for the rest of your lifetime
Southern Spain, hmm, not so much
Portuguese food is a bit rubbish tho, once you get beyond the sardines and the cataplana. Galician food is much more inventive
The rain gives you the green hills and trees.
But you want it concentrated in certain seasons and hopefully in short intense bursts
What you don’t want is cool drizzly weeks of British summer
Huh. Looks like Ukraine will be exporting electricity to the EU. Surprised by that. I guess domestic Ukrainian demand for electricity must be way down, but the nuclear power plants are still running.
Re: Rick Steves & Kotor Bay, note the quote posted by Ianbeetoo, published in Smithsonian Magazine in 2010, is also currently available - without any date - on RS's website under "Rick's Travel Articles"
Which is NOT same thing as validating him as 100% (or more) responsible for influx of Ugly Americans which for I (as opposed to me) are 100% (or more) of us (also US).
There's a lot (and I mean a lot) about the way we have gone about leaving the EU and the post-EU arrangements which in my view which has been stupid, short-sighted or so riddled with arcane notions of sovereignty, "leverage" and seeking dubious advantage as to be borderline malevolent.
All of that said, we couldn't go on as we were - there were only two credible positions, either we were enthusiastically members which meant adopting the Euro, Schengen and all the rest which we could have done (I'm NOT saying "should") and which in turn would have altered the dynamic of the EU or we stood on the outside wishing it well, looking for a mutually beneficial economic and trading relationship but not getting politically involved.
Instead, incredibly, we did neither. We embarked on a half-hearted, mean-spirited, penny-pinching, griping, moaning membership - endlessly complaining and rarely, if ever, trying to set the agenda. That was the fault of successive Governments over 50 years - it's little wonder both the British people and the EU got fed up.
So we're out and we have to make it work and we have to ask the hard questions about our role in the world which we've probably dodged since 1945 (certainly since Suez and arguably fudged during our EU membership).
While I would not wish the human misery and suffering of the Ukraine on anyone, one by-product has been to re-energise "the West" with a new sense of purpose which arguably it had lacked since the USSR collapsed. It has given the UK a new sense of a role in the western alliance and has re-energised NATO. That said, the world isn't either Europe or NATO and we have to be an economic power in Latin America, the Far East and the Indian Sub-Continent all areas of economic potential and challenge.
The failure to really flesh out what "Global Britain" means (beyond a cheap slogan) has left the future uncertain - we can't just be a place for the mega-wealthy to buy houses, drive fast cars and shop. Our lot cannot just be a servants of mega-wealth yet the pandemic has also set in train other forces.
As I argued last night, the pandemic forced some to question the viability of their work-life existence and for them a life without work isn't the nightmare we were conditioned to believe. Indeed, there are those who have moved beyond the old adage of "you work to live, you don't live to work" and especially if materially capable and able have turned their back on the working life in search of something else.
The post-work world is one which I think will develop and grow in the next few decades as more and more seek a life meaning beyond the "eat, work, sleep, repeat" mantra of past decades.
I don't remember the EU being especially fed up, and I've always read a lot of Continental papers. Frankly they didn't talk about Britain nearly as much as most people imagine. Even among the leaders, they were used to having members with off-centre views and some - Hungary, Poland - worry them much more than the UK ever did.
I think we got fed up with ourselves, as you describe, feeling that half-hearted membership was just tiresome. But IMO we could have continued it indefinitely with few serious Continental complaints. It wasn't especially broken, and I think we made a mistake in thinking we had to leave or embrace everything. Muddling through was a perfectly adequate strategy which arguably was acftually our best bet.
People say that Cameron's renegotiation was terrible, but I don't think it was at all
"What Cameron wanted: a declaration that the treaty motto of “ever closer union among the peoples of Europe” did not apply to the UK. EU leaders had already agreed a special formula of wording in June 2014 that not all member states were on the road to integration, but Cameron wanted something stronger.
What he’s got: Much more emphatic language, stressing that the UK is not on the road to deeper integration. “It is recognised that the United Kingdom ... is not committed to further political integration in the European Union ... References to ever-closer union do not apply to the United Kingdom.”"
This was brilliant. We could have stayed in the EU without joining the Euro or Schengen and rejected anything else that led to "Ever closer union". But we threw it all away.
I am mildly obsessed with sunshine hours (as weather affects my mood quite a lot, and I am prone to moods)
The USA enjoys vastly more sunshine than Europe. It is one of the reasons I used to think about moving there, but not any more, the American negatives now significantly outweigh the positives (for me, personally. as a Brit)
The ideal one should seek (as a sun lover) is desert-like hours of sunshine but with a fertile and seasonal climate. The eastern Adriatic coast gets quite close to that ideal
Me too (sun hour obsession) once I realised why British winters got me down. It’s not the cold, it’s the gloom.
I’m now looking for a place in Europe that near-replicates the climate I grew up with. I think northern Portugal or Galicia.
Probably rainy, but I don’t mind the rain.
Not keen on rain either, personally (Why, God, was i born in England???) but I do like green hills and trees, I don’t want a desert
Northern Portugal is a good bet (and it is still quite cheap, at least inland). Even if global warming spirals out of control Porto and environs will likely remain pleasantly habitable for the rest of your lifetime
Southern Spain, hmm, not so much
Portuguese food is a bit rubbish tho, once you get beyond the sardines and the cataplana. Galician food is much more inventive
The rain gives you the green hills and trees.
But you want it concentrated in certain seasons and hopefully in short intense bursts
What you don’t want is cool drizzly weeks of British summer
Personally i hate heat, or at least humid heat - anything above about 25-28 degrees i hate - so a forecast of a bit of a cool week in mid July is good news for me.
Comments
That's a bit like saying, he may be a cheat but at least he always cheats.
Eventually everyone hops on the new bus and the idiots responsible for the last mess go down in history books as irredeemable clown-tards.
b) What has your 2nd para got to do with what the previous poster said?
If you include the DNVs and the spoilt ballot papers from the referendum like you are trying to do with the poll, then under 35% of the electorate voted remain. By your logic 35% Remain has gone up to 50%.
The UK is going to have to learn to love FOM.
It’s not impossible, the UK is generally more liberal on immigration than lots of places.
https://www.business-live.co.uk/economic-development/plaid-cymru-calls-uk-rejoin-24344694
Only the LDs and SNP have a long term aspiration still to rejoin the EU
https://www.libdemvoice.org/lib-dems-back-long-term-aspiration-to-rejoin-eu-65957.html
Labour only wants closer regulatory alignment, Starmer has ruled out rejoining and ruled out the single market and free movement
I knew when I posted the original poll he would come out with his dishonest nonsense.
Same with Sandpit and his fact-free nonsense about low skill wage hikes.
Let's not forget that this is not a uniquely British problem either, there's worldwide turbulence at the moment. It's just unfortunate that it's come at the worst possible time for the UK as there's a lot of noise as to what is causing it.
at least when they travel they are usually capable of leaving the dog at home.
For Brexit was wrong let alone Rejoin to still not even get over 50% including don't knows shows little has changed. Plus of course even Starmer has ruled out rejoining the EU and single market as he knows it is political suicide in the redwall
The UK has a red hot employment market, is a world leader in tech and digital start-ups and has 1st or 2nd position in Europe for foreign investment; it's hugely influential. We're in a good place. Yes, there will be pain and problems caused by Brexit but it's very far from all being caused by them and nor will reversing it solve them all, and indeed will cause many new ones.
Who knows what the future holds but I'm confident it's a bright one and I wouldn't trade our position for that of any country on the continent, including Germany.
'Though if Labour want to fight the next general election on a campaign to rejoin the EU and hand the redwall back to Johnson and the Tories on a plate, be my guest'
and now
'Labour only wants closer regulatory alignment, Starmer has ruled out rejoining and ruled out the single market and free movement'
and you wonder why your credibility is questioned
If you are a posh woman, it's acceptable to give your married boss a blow job in the office but if you are a working class woman don't even think about going to the opera or having a class of bubbly.
https://twitter.com/SiobhanBenita/status/1542521543355379714
There's a fix to be made where EU allow UK SM membership with controls on overall FOM numbers but they wont go there unless something changes in next few years.
“Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery that mediocrity can pay to greatness.” - Oscar Wilde
Not sure I concur with 2nd half of that re: BC, but no doubt about 1st.
I'm sceptical to be honest.
Amazon Prime will also broadcast some live matches from Uefa’s new-look competition in the UK for the first time with BT Sport retaining the bulk of the TV rights.
The deals are set to be announced by Uefa on Friday and European football’s governing body will benefit from a 15 per cent increase in its income from the UK rights from £1.2 billion for the existing three-year deal to about £1.4 billion from 2024 to 2027, according to sources with knowledge of the negotiations.
The BBC’s package means it will show highlights of Champions League matches on Wednesday nights and will be a coup for the broadcaster which will be able to have a midweek Match of The Day to show clips from the European games, as well as Premier League highlights shows on Saturdays and Sundays.
Sources said the BBC has committed significant resources to bidding for the highlights.
BT Sport is set to form a new joint venture with Warner Bros Discovery, and retaining the Champions League, Europa League and Europa Conference League rights was one of the top priorities for the new venture.
Amazon is set to get the first pick of matches to show live on Tuesday nights and BT Sport will have all the other games and highlights.
The new format of the Champions League means it will expand from 32 to 36 teams under a new “Swiss model” with 189 matches per season compared to the existing 125.
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/bbc-to-show-champions-league-highlights-for-the-first-time-55pp98smr
Because of Brexit?
Evidence also shows that concern with immigration directly follows the amount of attention paid by the right-wing tabloids.
In my opinion the UK is *still* not honest about immigration. Numbers are high, and by no means are they all skilled. They are also, frankly, coming from less assimilable places.
The government is playing catch up trying to respond to disastrous labour shortages and so is binging anything short of “bottle-washer” on the desired occupations list.
And guess what happens next?
The BBC is so hard up that it's just bought the rights to show highlights of the Champions League for the first time ever!
The Govt could have been much, much tougher.
Cameron froze the LF for six years, this Govt should certainly have frozen it for more than two.
It’s the fact that he tried to give his mistress a range of government jobs.
https://www.ons.gov.uk/employmentandlabourmarket/peopleinwork/employmentandemployeetypes/bulletins/jobsandvacanciesintheuk/latest
I’ll even give you the Guardian moaning about pay rises and sign-on bonuses : https://www.theguardian.com/business/2021/aug/29/so-whats-so-wrong-with-labour-shortages-driving-up-low-wages
Your wages reference is a year old, is from renowned Brexitard Larry Elliott, and offers no data except a reference to sign-on bonus offered by Tesco during that truck driver shortage.
The actual wage data shows no spike for
low skilled workers.
There's a lot (and I mean a lot) about the way we have gone about leaving the EU and the post-EU arrangements which in my view which has been stupid, short-sighted or so riddled with arcane notions of sovereignty, "leverage" and seeking dubious advantage as to be borderline malevolent.
All of that said, we couldn't go on as we were - there were only two credible positions, either we were enthusiastically members which meant adopting the Euro, Schengen and all the rest which we could have done (I'm NOT saying "should") and which in turn would have altered the dynamic of the EU or we stood on the outside wishing it well, looking for a mutually beneficial economic and trading relationship but not getting politically involved.
Instead, incredibly, we did neither. We embarked on a half-hearted, mean-spirited, penny-pinching, griping, moaning membership - endlessly complaining and rarely, if ever, trying to set the agenda. That was the fault of successive Governments over 50 years - it's little wonder both the British people and the EU got fed up.
So we're out and we have to make it work and we have to ask the hard questions about our role in the world which we've probably dodged since 1945 (certainly since Suez and arguably fudged during our EU membership).
While I would not wish the human misery and suffering of the Ukraine on anyone, one by-product has been to re-energise "the West" with a new sense of purpose which arguably it had lacked since the USSR collapsed. It has given the UK a new sense of a role in the western alliance and has re-energised NATO. That said, the world isn't either Europe or NATO and we have to be an economic power in Latin America, the Far East and the Indian Sub-Continent all areas of economic potential and challenge.
The failure to really flesh out what "Global Britain" means (beyond a cheap slogan) has left the future uncertain - we can't just be a place for the mega-wealthy to buy houses, drive fast cars and shop. Our lot cannot just be a servants of mega-wealth yet the pandemic has also set in train other forces.
As I argued last night, the pandemic forced some to question the viability of their work-life existence and for them a life without work isn't the nightmare we were conditioned to believe. Indeed, there are those who have moved beyond the old adage of "you work to live, you don't live to work" and especially if materially capable and able have turned their back on the working life in search of something else.
The post-work world is one which I think will develop and grow in the next few decades as more and more seek a life meaning beyond the "eat, work, sleep, repeat" mantra of past decades.
Is it the karst landscape? It is definitely a thing
Which makes me wonder. Is this it? Have I found the perfect place, at last? Beautiful stark mountains descending to warm clean Mediterranean seas. Cypresses and umbrella pines. Lovely women. Beautiful medieval villages. Friendly people. Lovely women. Grandiose national parks just beyond the coast. Did I mention the women? Not so many tourists outside Kotor. THE WOMEN
In fact, it isn’t paradise. The food is meh and the roads are crazy and it must be dull as dung in winter, and corruption is a major issue
But a little corner of the world to have an apartment by the sea? Hmmmm
Tivat has 3045
https://www.pinterest.co.uk/pin/384846730648723868/
Psychologically I think people will prefer to find any alternative explanation to blaming themselves. So the likely outcome is that they will blame the scapegoat offered to them by Leavers. It will be the stab in the back myth. Pretty ugly prospect.
They haven’t even got live games just a midweek highlights package.
Who (according to his wiki entry) called for Ottoman Empire to declare war against the Balkan League in October 1912; five days later Montenegro declared war against the Ottomans, sparking First Balkan War.
David Cameron.
Nigel Farage.
Boris Johnson.
Jacob Rees-Mogg.
Daniel Hannan.
Ironic, as Brexit is essentially a lower middle class, Tebbity-nostalgic, affliction.
Of course it's only highlights - live games would have cost way, way too much.
But it's still a notable additional cost being taken on for the first time which they could easily have managed without. Thus showing that they still have more money than they need.
The USA enjoys vastly more sunshine than Europe. It is one of the reasons I used to think about moving there, but not any more, the American negatives now significantly outweigh the positives (for me, personally. as a Brit)
The ideal one should seek (as a sun lover) is desert-like hours of sunshine but with a fertile and seasonal climate. The eastern Adriatic coast gets quite close to that ideal
My observation is that most of the extra sun we get is in September, October and November.
I’m now looking for a place in Europe that near-replicates the climate I grew up with. I think northern Portugal or Galicia.
Probably rainy, but I don’t mind the rain.
Who the F cares about highlights? You can watch them on YouTube. A bizarre purchase by the Beeb
Who the feck makes these decisions?
Edit: If anyone on here has met a single person who thinks the new look News at 10 walkathon bollocks is any good then please hit the anecdata button.
Northern Portugal is a good bet (and it is still quite cheap, at least inland). Even if global warming spirals out of control Porto and environs will likely remain pleasantly habitable for the rest of your lifetime
Southern Spain, hmm, not so much
Portuguese food is a bit rubbish tho, once you get beyond the sardines and the cataplana. Galician food is much more inventive
Surely this is a big story.
https://www.rte.ie/news/ulster/2022/0630/1307702-muckamore-inquiry/
ETA and yes it may be an additional cost but that is true of any new drama series.
I think we got fed up with ourselves, as you describe, feeling that half-hearted membership was just tiresome. But IMO we could have continued it indefinitely with few serious Continental complaints. It wasn't especially broken, and I think we made a mistake in thinking we had to leave or embrace everything. Muddling through was a perfectly adequate strategy which arguably was acftually our best bet.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-61983293
Which is NOT same thing as validating him as 100% (or more) responsible for influx of Ugly Americans which for I (as opposed to me) are 100% (or more) of us (also US).
https://www.ricksteves.com/watch-read-listen/read/tms/montenegros-bay-of-kotor
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/feb/19/camerons-eu-deal-what-he-wanted-and-what-he-got
"What Cameron wanted: a declaration that the treaty motto of “ever closer union among the peoples of Europe” did not apply to the UK. EU leaders had already agreed a special formula of wording in June 2014 that not all member states were on the road to integration, but Cameron wanted something stronger.
What he’s got: Much more emphatic language, stressing that the UK is not on the road to deeper integration. “It is recognised that the United Kingdom ... is not committed to further political integration in the European Union ... References to ever-closer union do not apply to the United Kingdom.”"
This was brilliant. We could have stayed in the EU without joining the Euro or Schengen and rejected anything else that led to "Ever closer union". But we threw it all away.
What you don’t want is cool drizzly weeks of British summer
As you said, it is cruise boats. That is all
We are all different.