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The LDs claim victory in Tiverton & Honiton – politicalbetting.com

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  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 33,482

    geoffw said:

    Two terrible results for Boris.

    God knows what those apologists for him are thinking this morning. If they "needed to hear the view of the voters" before moving him out, then they are tin-eared pillocks, utterly out of touch with their electorate. The voters have spoken - and it is to say to Boris "fuck off and die". It has been clear for months that Partygate crystallised a "never again" sentiment against him. Only a new leader and PM can stop that sentiment bleeding into a toxicity for the Party.

    I've been saying this for months. Get Penny Mordaunt in, pronto. If she were PM, we would now have a Conservative MP in T&H. Possibly also in Wakefield. But in T&H especially, having to give support for Boris, however luke-warm, killed any credibility as a candidate. As it would for many of those who recently voted to keep him in post.

    The turnout figures tell many that Tories are sitting on their hands. I like Boris despite his peccadillos but he is now a drag on competent government and has lost it as a vote winner.

    I did predict the big winner would be the Can't Be Arsed Party.

    Tories can still get a big swing from CBA with a new leader.
    Unless it is one of the numpty heabangers...
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 21,870
    edited June 24

    Speaking in Rwanda after the by-election defeats, Boris Johnson said he would “listen” to the message from voters, but vowed to “keep going” as prime minister.

    He blamed the by-election defeats on the spiralling cost of living and said there was “more to do” to help people cope

    Is this accepting he’s doomed?

    Good God, I have just realised Johnson has actually flown to Rwanda today*. I know were were joking about a kyiv visit as a dead cat but, honestly, what's all this about?

    Do you think they can persuaded to keep him as they have some unused facilities, I believe.

    Edit: *Not today - mea culpa, I have obviously not been keeping up.
  • boulayboulay Posts: 1,462
    eek said:

    boulay said:

    pigeon said:

    OnboardG1 said:

    nico679 said:

    I think David Lammys comments on the EU were the best way forward .

    I don’t see Labour Remainers jumping ship because the party won’t commit to rejoining or joining the SM or CU.

    Repairing relations with the EU , agri food agreements etc seem hardly controversial .

    I just don’t see any appetite amongst my many Remainer friends to go through another fight over EU membership .

    More or less, can’t be bothered with that argument right now. Align standards where it’s sensible, stop picking fights with the French and get ready to play the long game.
    Indeed. I am not a re-joiner, but I think those who are of that persuasion must reconcile themselves to the idea that it's a generational project. After all, there's no incentive for the rest of the EU to consider letting us back in until it becomes obvious that there is a large and settled majority for that proposition (no less than 2:1 in favour) in both Parliament and the electorate.

    It took four over four decades for the souverainiste faction to get what they wanted. I can't see the re-joiners being ready to make a proper push for their aim in anything less than two.
    Yes, my CLP last night had a motion calling for re-joining. Everyone in the room agreed with him on the issue, but everyone except him agreed that it would be madness to propose it in the next Parliament. We urged the party to promise sensible, friendly parternship with the EU for the next 5
    years, and worry about re-joining in a future Parliament.
    I’m sure this will be an unpopular view with those here who dream of rejoining but here I go.

    Until intelligent people who dream of rejoining stop sodding dreaming of rejoining then Brexit can never be a success.

    If everyone intelligent who wanted to rejoin said “ok it’s not where we want to be but we are here so let’s throw our energies and weight into taking it out of the hands of the idiots who are running the show then it might just end up being a good thing for the country”.

    Think of it this way, the people voted (rightly or wrongly depending on your opinion) for Brexit. If there are senior civil servants, politicians, anyone of influence and use who are constantly trying to put up barriers to Brexit then it’s never going to work well.

    For a crap analogy, imagine you work for a part of a bank, the management team and some shareholders decide to do a management buy-out of the part of the bank you work for because they think it will work better and be more profitable and nimble in the future - yes it will lose economies of scale, maybe influence, all sorts of benefits but actually they are sure that these issues are outweighed by being standalone.

    You are angry as you liked being part of Moneybank Global as you could transfer to work in any other office, you personally thought that what your division lost by Moneybank’s rules were worth it for other benefits, some tangible and others more symbolic - part of a big global bank family.

    After the MBO you sit and sulk and slow down things - you hope that the management will say, “gosh you are right, this is crap, let’s rejoin Moneybank global”.

    If you had embraced it instead you could ensure that the direction it takes works but because you are being obstructive they put John Idiot in charge of the team and the outcome is worse than if you had stepped up to the plate.

    Because remainders with brains walked away in a strop it was left to John Idiots to drive how Brexit would work hence stupid speed of prioritising trade deals to show somethings being done.

    So everyone who sits there waiting for “rejoin” is ultimately buggering up the country more than is has to be. And don’t think that if we were to discuss rejoin with the EU that we would be going back in as before - all the opt outs would go and the EU would take their pound of flesh.

    So we can have a successful realistic Brexit if everyone pulls their weight or you can hold out for rejoin where rejoin might be rejoining something very different to what we had.

    Sorry but Bozo the clown is in charge alongside a group of grade A muppets so although a deal with the EU is the samechoice (after all they are next door to us) that isn't an option..

    We could have a successful realistic Brexit but that requires the people in power to be realistic and to understand the actual position we are in not the completely imaginary one they believe Britain is in.
    That’s sort of part of my point - we are left with the ideological idiots running Brexit and therefore screwing it up because those people who might have been able to manage it better were also ideological and either walked away or obstructed.

    If sensible people who hate Brexit had got on with it then maybe there would be a better mix in charge of implementing it and thus successfully finding the benefits and minimising the negatives. Whilst they are acting like a resistance movement they can’t actually water down the ones left by default to deal with things.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 52,664
    edited June 24
    Leon said:

    boulay said:

    pigeon said:

    OnboardG1 said:

    nico679 said:

    I think David Lammys comments on the EU were the best way forward .

    I don’t see Labour Remainers jumping ship because the party won’t commit to rejoining or joining the SM or CU.

    Repairing relations with the EU , agri food agreements etc seem hardly controversial .

    I just don’t see any appetite amongst my many Remainer friends to go through another fight over EU membership .

    More or less, can’t be bothered with that argument right now. Align standards where it’s sensible, stop picking fights with the French and get ready to play the long game.
    Indeed. I am not a re-joiner, but I think those who are of that persuasion must reconcile themselves to the idea that it's a generational project. After all, there's no incentive for the rest of the EU to consider letting us back in until it becomes obvious that there is a large and settled majority for that proposition (no less than 2:1 in favour) in both Parliament and the electorate.

    It took four over four decades for the souverainiste faction to get what they wanted. I can't see the re-joiners being ready to make a proper push for their aim in anything less than two.
    Yes, my CLP last night had a motion calling for re-joining. Everyone in the room agreed with him on the issue, but everyone except him agreed that it would be madness to propose it in the next Parliament. We urged the party to promise sensible, friendly parternship with the EU for the next 5
    years, and worry about re-joining in a future Parliament.
    I’m sure this will be an unpopular view with those here who dream of rejoining but here I go.

    Until intelligent people who dream of rejoining stop sodding dreaming of rejoining then Brexit can never be a success.

    If everyone intelligent who wanted to rejoin said “ok it’s not where we want to be but we are here so let’s throw our energies and weight into taking it out of the hands of the idiots who are running the show then it might just end up being a good thing for the country”.

    Think of it this way, the people voted (rightly or wrongly depending on your opinion) for Brexit. If there are senior civil servants, politicians, anyone of influence and use who are constantly trying to put up barriers to Brexit then it’s never going to work well.

    For a crap analogy, imagine you work for a part of a bank, the management team and some shareholders decide to do a management buy-out of the part of the bank you work for because they think it will work better and be more profitable and nimble in the future - yes it will lose economies of scale, maybe influence, all sorts of benefits but actually they are sure that these issues are outweighed by being standalone.

    You are angry as you liked being part of Moneybank Global as you could transfer to work in any other office, you personally thought that what your division lost by Moneybank’s rules were worth it for other benefits, some tangible and others more symbolic - part of a big global bank family.

    After the MBO you sit and sulk and slow down things - you hope that the management will say, “gosh you are right, this is crap, let’s rejoin Moneybank global”.

    If you had embraced it instead you could ensure that the direction it takes works but because you are being obstructive they put John Idiot in charge of the team and the outcome is worse than if you had stepped up to the plate.

    Because remainders with brains walked away in a strop it was left to John Idiots to drive how Brexit would work hence stupid speed of prioritising trade deals to show somethings being done.

    So everyone who sits there waiting for “rejoin” is ultimately buggering up the country more than is has to be. And don’t think that if we were to discuss rejoin with the EU that we would be going back in as before - all the opt outs would go and the EU would take their pound of flesh.

    So we can have a successful realistic Brexit if everyone pulls their weight or you can hold out for rejoin where rejoin might be rejoining something very different to what we had.

    You have identified the same problem as me. Remain has not gone away and lurks just beneath the surface of British political life, especially in the Labour Party (as we see from NPXMP's comment). Rejoiners and Remainers will never be reconciled to Brexit. So they will spend a decade or two putting spanners in the works, so Britain falls over, and we have to Rejoin

    Except that they will almost certainly fail, so they will be hobbling the country for no reason



    I was Remain. I voted to stay. I think it was a disaster to leave, especially economically.

    But I am reconciled. There is no going back in my lifetime.

    Going back means joining the Euro, unless they somehow fix the rules of entry, and that would be a disaster way beyond anything Brexit is doing.

    None of two major parties will be prepared to risk present the public with the option of freedom of movement imho. So again, we can't rejoin as SM is part of rejoin.

    We need to find a way to trade and live with the EU on our doorstep. This lot around Johnson are not interested in doing that as they want to keep its failure as a wedge issue for 2024.

  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 19,775
    Leon said:

    boulay said:

    pigeon said:

    OnboardG1 said:

    nico679 said:

    I think David Lammys comments on the EU were the best way forward .

    I don’t see Labour Remainers jumping ship because the party won’t commit to rejoining or joining the SM or CU.

    Repairing relations with the EU , agri food agreements etc seem hardly controversial .

    I just don’t see any appetite amongst my many Remainer friends to go through another fight over EU membership .

    More or less, can’t be bothered with that argument right now. Align standards where it’s sensible, stop picking fights with the French and get ready to play the long game.
    Indeed. I am not a re-joiner, but I think those who are of that persuasion must reconcile themselves to the idea that it's a generational project. After all, there's no incentive for the rest of the EU to consider letting us back in until it becomes obvious that there is a large and settled majority for that proposition (no less than 2:1 in favour) in both Parliament and the electorate.

    It took four over four decades for the souverainiste faction to get what they wanted. I can't see the re-joiners being ready to make a proper push for their aim in anything less than two.
    Yes, my CLP last night had a motion calling for re-joining. Everyone in the room agreed with him on the issue, but everyone except him agreed that it would be madness to propose it in the next Parliament. We urged the party to promise sensible, friendly parternship with the EU for the next 5
    years, and worry about re-joining in a future Parliament.
    I’m sure this will be an unpopular view with those here who dream of rejoining but here I go.

    Until intelligent people who dream of rejoining stop sodding dreaming of rejoining then Brexit can never be a success.

    If everyone intelligent who wanted to rejoin said “ok it’s not where we want to be but we are here so let’s throw our energies and weight into taking it out of the hands of the idiots who are running the show then it might just end up being a good thing for the country”.

    Think of it this way, the people voted (rightly or wrongly depending on your opinion) for Brexit. If there are senior civil servants, politicians, anyone of influence and use who are constantly trying to put up barriers to Brexit then it’s never going to work well.

    For a crap analogy, imagine you work for a part of a bank, the management team and some shareholders decide to do a management buy-out of the part of the bank you work for because they think it will work better and be more profitable and nimble in the future - yes it will lose economies of scale, maybe influence, all sorts of benefits but actually they are sure that these issues are outweighed by being standalone.

    You are angry as you liked being part of Moneybank Global as you could transfer to work in any other office, you personally thought that what your division lost by Moneybank’s rules were worth it for other benefits, some tangible and others more symbolic - part of a big global bank family.

    After the MBO you sit and sulk and slow down things - you hope that the management will say, “gosh you are right, this is crap, let’s rejoin Moneybank global”.

    If you had embraced it instead you could ensure that the direction it takes works but because you are being obstructive they put John Idiot in charge of the team and the outcome is worse than if you had stepped up to the plate.

    Because remainders with brains walked away in a strop it was left to John Idiots to drive how Brexit would work hence stupid speed of prioritising trade deals to show somethings being done.

    So everyone who sits there waiting for “rejoin” is ultimately buggering up the country more than is has to be. And don’t think that if we were to discuss rejoin with the EU that we would be going back in as before - all the opt outs would go and the EU would take their pound of flesh.

    So we can have a successful realistic Brexit if everyone pulls their weight or you can hold out for rejoin where rejoin might be rejoining something very different to what we had.

    You have identified the same problem as me. Remain has not gone away and lurks just beneath the surface of British political life, especially in the Labour Party (as we see from NPXMP's comment). Rejoiners and Remainers will never be reconciled to Brexit. So they will spend a decade or two putting spanners in the works, so Britain falls over, and we have to Rejoin

    Except that they will almost certainly fail, so they will be hobbling the country for no reason
    The economic data is clear and unambiguous - Boris's Brexit deal has "hobbled the country" as you put it. That is not to say that no form of Brexit could work economically - far from it. Only that *this* form of Brexit has been economically damaging.

    Your problem is that you are obsessively fighting the last battle. As are the minority of hardcore rejoiners AND hardcore no-dealers. All need to be set aside, we are where we are. Even if a UK government in a few years wanted back into the UK there is no way they would let us.

    So just like the fantasies of no deal and Singapore-on-Thames "lets leave the WTO" Brexit, the rejoiners are in fantasy land and can be left to it.

    So what we have to do is fix Brexit. Because it has and will continue to cause economic damage and make our businesses and exporters less competitive. That is strategically damaging in the long term as well as the short term hit.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 77,249
    Andy_JS said:

    Nigelb said:

    Andy_JS said:

    The Wakefield result probably isn't bad enough for the Tories to bring about a renewed leadership challenge.

    No, but T&H certainly is.

    Big Dog has become a mangy cur.
    Technically that's true, but the Tories will look at a 6,000 LD majority in Tiverton and think we can win this back without too many problems. Wakefield is the seat that will be an important marginal at the general election.
    Broadly right but I think it would be a little complacent. The LDs may struggle, but a 6k majority on a good turnout suggests a decent amount of active support not just Tories staying home.

    Given the type of seat still not easy to retain the support, but it gives them more of a shot than the same percentage win on a lower turnout.
  • IcarusIcarus Posts: 648

    At what time this morning is Carrie Johnson installed as the new Tory Party Chair?

    I think she will be busy ringing round her friends to find Boris a job.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 77,249
    OnboardG1 said:

    I got woken up by the local church bells so I figured I’d read the by election stories. The main thing that pops out is the level of tactical voting. There’s a very obvious voter-preference for “anyone but the Tories”, and that’s what should scare the Blue team right now.

    I look forward to the first Caninet minister to moan about the tactical voting as if it is sinister.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 9,012

    OllyT said:

    Has anyone seen FUDHY yet?

    Is he advancing tanks on Edinburgh or cowering in the bunker?


    Might be doing him a disservice but I suspect he's waiting for HQ to email the faithful telling them how to spin the results. He could be in for a long wait
    For all that I have had my run-ins with HYUFD in the past, he's only human, and I'm sure he's disappointed at the results and that his personal efforts to help retain T&H were not successful.
    But its his fault. HIS defeat. We hear him on here. A deaf, arrogant, sneering buffoon. His entire party sounds the same, and people are sick of them. Imagine getting a call from HY or one like him - sky is green, Boris is moral, the economy is brilliant, there are no issues.

    That the Tories got another reaming is directly HY's fault. Personally. He is a cheerleader for the lunatic personality cult which has taken over what used to be the Conservative and Unionist Party.
    I remember how disappointed I was six years ago. We went away for a long weekend in Northumberland to hide from the 2019GE result.

    It's not in my nature to kick a person when they're down.

    People say that someone like me, on the autistic spectrum, can't feel empathy for others. That's to misunderstand autism. I just have no idea how to express it in person.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 52,664
    edited June 24
    Stocky said:

    Just got bit matched at 5.5 for Johnson not to be PM at the time of the Oct conference (BF). Dowden's resignation may prove even more significant that the loss of T&H.

    Has he jumped this morning knowing that Big Dog was going to throw him under the bus the minute gets back from his overseas wanderings?

    Or is it the start of the plot to end the dog?
  • Wulfrun_PhilWulfrun_Phil Posts: 3,863
    dixiedean said:

    From where Labour came from in 2019 to be getting a 12% swing in the Red Wall is clearly good progress. And to say otherwise isn’t fair.

    Should Labour be doing better? Quite possibly - but I am unconvinced anyone would be doing better than Keir

    Parliamentary by-election gains for Labour have been rare beasts. The last three have taken between them 25 years - Wirral South (1997), Corby (2012) and now Wakefield.

    It is a significant recovery and the 48% Labour share and 18% winning margin comfortably exceeded the figures that Mary Creagh achieved on the same boundaries in 2005 (43% and 12% margin), the last GE to deliver a Labour government.
    Point of order.
    2010 was the first election fought on these boundaries.
    2005 was only 3 of the current 6 wards. So it was barely half of the present seat.
    OK take 2015 as the point of reference then. 40% Lab share and 6% winning margin. Again, a big recovery compared to that.
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 19,775
    DougSeal said:

    malcolmg said:

    rcs1000 said:

    OnboardG1 said:

    Meanwhile, I’m finding myself glad I didn’t order a Toyota for this round of new car shopping:

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-61919424

    “Motor industry giant Toyota is recalling 2,700 of its first mass-produced all-electric vehicles over concerns their wheels may fall off.”

    Now, I love me an EV, but this seems like an enormously poor headline to have when launching your first one.

    We got our first EV in the spring: the fantastic BMW Mini. God, that’s a great wee vehicle, despite its Union Jacks all over the place. Dreadful range, but heck, I’m not planning on driving to Monte Carlo in the damn thing.

    I’m a total convert. This time last year I was an ICE fan.

    The problem is we need to replace the Volvo SUV soon, and I’m less keen on EV technology for the 6 hour journeys that that vehicle undertakes on occasion. Sweden is a *very* big country.
    No one's hatred of EVs survives ownership of one.

    (I'm on my third.)
    I think there's very little hatred of EVs. The problem is that they're too costly and not effective enough for anyone who is not either fairly well-off, or really into cars.

    Just this morning I was looking at the Hyundai Ioniq5. This is a well-regarded EV, with a range of up to 315 miles. Best of all it is not a Tesla.

    But it costs £40k to £52k.

    The smaller Kona EV has a similar range, and costs from £30K. The ICE Hyundai i30 Tourer starts at £22k.

    We simply cannot justify spending that much on a car. Hopefully that will change within a few years, and second-hand cars become more available.
    It’s the Ioniq I want to buy to replace the XC60, but the wife hates the looks. Can’t stand Teslas: they are a bloody plague around here. Boring as hell, which is of course why Swedes adore them.

    Yes, EVS are dear to buy, but cheap to run, *IF* you have your own off-road parking and install a charger at home.
    Given the electricity prices in UK it will soon be dearer to charge an EV than to fill a diesel.
    Personally I am going for a Range Rover Velar this time but will be nice and settle for a 2L to do my bit.
    Bless.
    Why bless? He's right. The stunted rapid charging network is a monopoly for which ever provider is at the motorway service area or big forecourt and they charge *lots*. Until the price of fuel started soaring there were live examples where the KWh price and realistic consumption on something like a Mercedes EQC was more per mile than a GLE on diesel.

    Yes, that balance has flipped at the moment, but it won't stay there.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 36,885

    nico679 said:

    I think David Lammys comments on the EU were the best way forward .

    I don’t see Labour Remainers jumping ship because the party won’t commit to rejoining or joining the SM or CU.

    Repairing relations with the EU , agri food agreements etc seem hardly controversial .

    I just don’t see any appetite amongst my many Remainer friends to go through another fight over EU membership .

    Any party not prepared to back rejoining / EEA is not on my list come the next election
    You will only have the SNP or Plaid
    You have a window into the future do you?

    I certainly will not be supporting your Tories. I have both a conscience and a spine.
    I am not a member of the conservative party and only yesterday Starmer ruled out joining the single market
    You always support the Tories on here even if you do take the odd dig at Boris. You sure as heck are not a Labour or Lib Dem man or even a floating voter.

    As for Starmer's pronouncements, he can say what he likes but it is the manifesto commitments at the next election that matter. I will make my decisions then.
    If you cut him in half it would be like a stick of rock , " I love Tory all the way through"
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 41,690
    Must confess to falling asleep after 3am and missing the live declarations :lol:
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 7,583

    DougSeal said:

    malcolmg said:

    rcs1000 said:

    OnboardG1 said:

    Meanwhile, I’m finding myself glad I didn’t order a Toyota for this round of new car shopping:

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-61919424

    “Motor industry giant Toyota is recalling 2,700 of its first mass-produced all-electric vehicles over concerns their wheels may fall off.”

    Now, I love me an EV, but this seems like an enormously poor headline to have when launching your first one.

    We got our first EV in the spring: the fantastic BMW Mini. God, that’s a great wee vehicle, despite its Union Jacks all over the place. Dreadful range, but heck, I’m not planning on driving to Monte Carlo in the damn thing.

    I’m a total convert. This time last year I was an ICE fan.

    The problem is we need to replace the Volvo SUV soon, and I’m less keen on EV technology for the 6 hour journeys that that vehicle undertakes on occasion. Sweden is a *very* big country.
    No one's hatred of EVs survives ownership of one.

    (I'm on my third.)
    I think there's very little hatred of EVs. The problem is that they're too costly and not effective enough for anyone who is not either fairly well-off, or really into cars.

    Just this morning I was looking at the Hyundai Ioniq5. This is a well-regarded EV, with a range of up to 315 miles. Best of all it is not a Tesla.

    But it costs £40k to £52k.

    The smaller Kona EV has a similar range, and costs from £30K. The ICE Hyundai i30 Tourer starts at £22k.

    We simply cannot justify spending that much on a car. Hopefully that will change within a few years, and second-hand cars become more available.
    It’s the Ioniq I want to buy to replace the XC60, but the wife hates the looks. Can’t stand Teslas: they are a bloody plague around here. Boring as hell, which is of course why Swedes adore them.

    Yes, EVS are dear to buy, but cheap to run, *IF* you have your own off-road parking and install a charger at home.
    Given the electricity prices in UK it will soon be dearer to charge an EV than to fill a diesel.
    Personally I am going for a Range Rover Velar this time but will be nice and settle for a 2L to do my bit.
    Bless.
    Why bless? He's right. The stunted rapid charging network is a monopoly for which ever provider is at the motorway service area or big forecourt and they charge *lots*. Until the price of fuel started soaring there were live examples where the KWh price and realistic consumption on something like a Mercedes EQC was more per mile than a GLE on diesel.

    Yes, that balance has flipped at the moment, but it won't stay there.
    It’s more the idea of him affording a car like that.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 77,249

    Heathener said:

    Heathener said:


    MarqueeMark very rudely dismissed my suggestions, but people are really angry. The likes of Tokyo Edmund and UAE Sandpit don't get it because they aren't here.

    The latest SavantaComRes has Labour 11% ahead and with tactical voting the Conservatives are heading for a crushing General Election defeat. Removing Johnson may help but it may already be too late.

    1992-7 Redux.


    Not very long ago the consensus of people here feeling the anger on the ground seemed to be that Boris Johnson was clearly going to get removed by his party over the thing with the parties, while more disinterested people thought it was only a medium-sized scandal
    I've never thought they would remove him.

    And your comment about the parties really really shows how out of touch you are in your far off land. People are really angry and hurt. We gave up so much during those lockdowns whilst that wicked clown was running a booze den in No.10.

    If you don't get this I'm afraid you (plural not you personally) will continue to call this wrong.
    I would just caution your criticism that as a poster is abroad their views are not relevant

    We have several posters regularly posting from abroad including @Sandpit, @Gardenwalker, @SeaShantyIrish2, @Cicero and others and they should be respected even if you do not agree with their point of view
    The idea people dont 'get it' if they live overseas is arrant nonsense.

    People might think sandpit or roger or whoever is wrong and be correct but it won't be because of distance. Sometimes distance can even help.
  • SelebianSelebian Posts: 3,859
    eek said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    Sandpit said:

    Foxy said:

    rcs1000 said:

    OnboardG1 said:

    Meanwhile, I’m finding myself glad I didn’t order a Toyota for this round of new car shopping:

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-61919424

    “Motor industry giant Toyota is recalling 2,700 of its first mass-produced all-electric vehicles over concerns their wheels may fall off.”

    Now, I love me an EV, but this seems like an enormously poor headline to have when launching your first one.

    We got our first EV in the spring: the fantastic BMW Mini. God, that’s a great wee vehicle, despite its Union Jacks all over the place. Dreadful range, but heck, I’m not planning on driving to Monte Carlo in the damn thing.

    I’m a total convert. This time last year I was an ICE fan.

    The problem is we need to replace the Volvo SUV soon, and I’m less keen on EV technology for the 6 hour journeys that that vehicle undertakes on occasion. Sweden is a *very* big country.
    No one's hatred of EVs survives ownership of one.

    (I'm on my third.)
    I think there's very little hatred of EVs. The problem is that they're too costly and not effective enough for anyone who is not either fairly well-off, or really into cars.

    Just this morning I was looking at the Hyundai Ioniq5. This is a well-regarded EV, with a range of up to 315 miles. Best of all it is not a Tesla.

    But it costs £40k to £52k.

    The smaller Kona EV has a similar range, and costs from £30K. The ICE Hyundai i30 Tourer starts at £22k.

    We simply cannot justify spending that much on a car. Hopefully that will change within a few years, and second-hand cars become more available.
    Though depreciation approaches zero on EVs. My eniro is 2 years old, 17 000 miles and valued at £32 000 on car price sites. I paid £34 000.
    But depreciation is also zero on ICE cars at the moment. We’ve also got an old 2014 Mini, and I could easily sell it for the same amount I bought it for a few years ago. I’ve got friends who have actually made a profit on buying then selling second-hand cars. Unheard of until recently (excluding certain rarities).
    Used car market is mad at the moment, and has been for a couple of years. Supply problems with new cars, huge lead times on anything.
    BMW Finance call me at least once a month and try to terminate the lease of Mrs DA's i4. Presumably even after making us good they can re-lease it and still make bank. I am quite tempted as I have recently been beating the absolute balls out of it and I'm pretty sure the rear suspension bushes are shot. The best I've done with Dragy is 3.5s 0-60 and that's with a 1.6s 60 foot.
    What is surprising me about the Test Match is the advertising for Cinch (etc). How on earth are all these secondhand car traders managing to make enough money to advertise in the way they do?
    Not really

    Cinch is / was the final part of the jigsaw where BCA took control of the whole second hand car market

    They now own

    We buy any car - buy direct from the public

    BCA car auctions
    Multiple car refurbishing sites

    Cinch - sell direct to the public

    A lot of dealers have given up trying to buy from BCA as BCA have managed to grab all the profit.

    Now if you are talking about Cazoo - that's a business with a problem...

    And Cinch only came along when BCA discovered that 2 of their car refurbishing sites were 100% utilised by Cazoo so it only required a website and a marketing campaign to pick up the final part of the business BCA were missing.

    Yep. To be fair, I do think there is a business model there even outside of BCA (although BCA could start looking quite interesting from a competition perspective).

    Likely to be some consolidation though, Cazaam (spelling?) and some of the other smaller players might get shafted. Maybe Cazoo too. We did actually buy from Cazoo relatively recently, because we knew the car we wanted and there were very few available locally. Bought on debit card without thinking and I was a bit nevous when I thought about that in case they imploded before we picked up the car - should have put it on credit card.

    Havig done it once, I would go that route again, potentially. Cazoo cocked up in the inspection/reporting (on collection we found unlisted faults) but the customer service has been good, single named person dealing with us, getting us booked in to main dealer to get the issues fixed, with collection and courtesy car. Also, having a week (or two) to really check out the car and be able to return it if you find an issue is better than kicking the tyres on the forecourt.

    These companies are at risk of having a lot of overvalued stock when second hand car prices normalise, but they do also seem to be taking this into account in part exchange - our part exchange offers from Cazoo, cinch etc were laughable compared to private sale value (more laughable even than normal - best from them was ~£6k and we sold privately for almost £10k - and lower than we were offered by some of the small independents with low inventory and faster turnover).
  • LeonLeon Posts: 24,048

    Leon said:

    boulay said:

    pigeon said:

    OnboardG1 said:

    nico679 said:

    I think David Lammys comments on the EU were the best way forward .

    I don’t see Labour Remainers jumping ship because the party won’t commit to rejoining or joining the SM or CU.

    Repairing relations with the EU , agri food agreements etc seem hardly controversial .

    I just don’t see any appetite amongst my many Remainer friends to go through another fight over EU membership .

    More or less, can’t be bothered with that argument right now. Align standards where it’s sensible, stop picking fights with the French and get ready to play the long game.
    Indeed. I am not a re-joiner, but I think those who are of that persuasion must reconcile themselves to the idea that it's a generational project. After all, there's no incentive for the rest of the EU to consider letting us back in until it becomes obvious that there is a large and settled majority for that proposition (no less than 2:1 in favour) in both Parliament and the electorate.

    It took four over four decades for the souverainiste faction to get what they wanted. I can't see the re-joiners being ready to make a proper push for their aim in anything less than two.
    Yes, my CLP last night had a motion calling for re-joining. Everyone in the room agreed with him on the issue, but everyone except him agreed that it would be madness to propose it in the next Parliament. We urged the party to promise sensible, friendly parternship with the EU for the next 5
    years, and worry about re-joining in a future Parliament.
    I’m sure this will be an unpopular view with those here who dream of rejoining but here I go.

    Until intelligent people who dream of rejoining stop sodding dreaming of rejoining then Brexit can never be a success.

    If everyone intelligent who wanted to rejoin said “ok it’s not where we want to be but we are here so let’s throw our energies and weight into taking it out of the hands of the idiots who are running the show then it might just end up being a good thing for the country”.

    Think of it this way, the people voted (rightly or wrongly depending on your opinion) for Brexit. If there are senior civil servants, politicians, anyone of influence and use who are constantly trying to put up barriers to Brexit then it’s never going to work well.

    For a crap analogy, imagine you work for a part of a bank, the management team and some shareholders decide to do a management buy-out of the part of the bank you work for because they think it will work better and be more profitable and nimble in the future - yes it will lose economies of scale, maybe influence, all sorts of benefits but actually they are sure that these issues are outweighed by being standalone.

    You are angry as you liked being part of Moneybank Global as you could transfer to work in any other office, you personally thought that what your division lost by Moneybank’s rules were worth it for other benefits, some tangible and others more symbolic - part of a big global bank family.

    After the MBO you sit and sulk and slow down things - you hope that the management will say, “gosh you are right, this is crap, let’s rejoin Moneybank global”.

    If you had embraced it instead you could ensure that the direction it takes works but because you are being obstructive they put John Idiot in charge of the team and the outcome is worse than if you had stepped up to the plate.

    Because remainders with brains walked away in a strop it was left to John Idiots to drive how Brexit would work hence stupid speed of prioritising trade deals to show somethings being done.

    So everyone who sits there waiting for “rejoin” is ultimately buggering up the country more than is has to be. And don’t think that if we were to discuss rejoin with the EU that we would be going back in as before - all the opt outs would go and the EU would take their pound of flesh.

    So we can have a successful realistic Brexit if everyone pulls their weight or you can hold out for rejoin where rejoin might be rejoining something very different to what we had.

    You have identified the same problem as me. Remain has not gone away and lurks just beneath the surface of British political life, especially in the Labour Party (as we see from NPXMP's comment). Rejoiners and Remainers will never be reconciled to Brexit. So they will spend a decade or two putting spanners in the works, so Britain falls over, and we have to Rejoin

    Except that they will almost certainly fail, so they will be hobbling the country for no reason
    The economic data is clear and unambiguous - Boris's Brexit deal has "hobbled the country" as you put it. That is not to say that no form of Brexit could work economically - far from it. Only that *this* form of Brexit has been economically damaging.

    Your problem is that you are obsessively fighting the last battle. As are the minority of hardcore rejoiners AND hardcore no-dealers. All need to be set aside, we are where we are. Even if a UK government in a few years wanted back into the UK there is no way they would let us.

    So just like the fantasies of no deal and Singapore-on-Thames "lets leave the WTO" Brexit, the rejoiners are in fantasy land and can be left to it.

    So what we have to do is fix Brexit. Because it has and will continue to cause economic damage and make our businesses and exporters less competitive. That is strategically damaging in the long term as well as the short term hit.
    Well then you need to talk to "all the members of NPXMP's constituency Labour Party" who apparently want to Rejoin, and who are quietly working towards that

    This is my point. I entirely accept that you and others are *reconciled* to Brexit, but many people are not, especially politically active people in the Labour Party and the Lib Dems. They want to Rejoin, passionately, and they have not given up - not at all

    Until THEY are reconciled, this problem will bedevil us. I cannot see an easy solution, because this is a question of faith
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 26,409
    Foxy said:

    IanB2 said:

    Leon said:

    Foxy said:

    murali_s said:

    Heathener said:

    murali_s said:

    nico679 said:

    I think David Lammys comments on the EU were the best way forward .

    I don’t see Labour Remainers jumping ship because the party won’t commit to rejoining or joining the SM or CU.

    Repairing relations with the EU , agri food agreements etc seem hardly controversial .

    I just don’t see any appetite amongst my many Remainer friends to go through another fight over EU membership .

    Any party not prepared to back rejoining / EEA is not on my list come the next election
    You will only have the SNP or Plaid
    You have a window into the future do you?

    I certainly will not be supporting your Tories. I have both a conscience and a spine.
    I am not a member of the conservative party and only yesterday Starmer ruled out joining the single market
    Which was as stupid thing to do. Really stupid...

    Labour needs a new leader with vision and policies and above all courage.
    If Labour want to win back the red wall then he must NOT speak about rejoining anything in the EU.
    Why?

    It's in the best interest of this country and I really believe it will be popular so a good move both for country and politically for Labour.

    Opinion polls have confirmed that there is a growing trend who think Brexit was wrong. The demographics will only reinforce that going forward.
    Yes, but now is not yet the time. The softly softly rapprochement with the EU is what is needed now. Rejoiners like me are quite comfortable with that, with the longer term objective of Rejoin coming when the fruit is ripe.
    But the trajectory is for the UK to spin further away from the EU, and get entirely used to governing itself, so that the idea of rejoining will become impossible. Note how there is absolutely no way Norway, Switzerland or Iceland will join the EU, any time soon, polling in all countries is vehemently against (despite, say, the Oslo government being quite keen, at times)

    Also the EU will further federalise, interim, making our membership even more unpalatable, over time

    So something big is needed to change this narrative, to knock the stylus out of the groove, and it needs to happen soon before it is too late. That's why Rejoiners will mount a big push if "they" win in 2024, to get us back in the SM (or something like it). It might be their only chance

    But they won't tell the voters this, before the election
    Insofar as there is an argument in there, it collapses at the point when you remember that Norway and Switzerland are effectively inside the Single Market.
    The other flaw is that if the tide changes, and we are reconverging, albeit on relatively small pragmatic issues, then the gap to Rejoining SM or EU proper is getting smaller with time, not greater.
    Your argument fails, at least as far as EU membership is concerned, because it assumes the EU is a static thing with which we converge. In the fact the EU is itself changing, moving away from us and becoming less and less appealing to people in the process.
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 19,008
    My take on the By Elections.

    Two centre right men have been replaced by two centre right men

    Go about your business nothing changes.
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 19,775

    geoffw said:

    Two terrible results for Boris.

    God knows what those apologists for him are thinking this morning. If they "needed to hear the view of the voters" before moving him out, then they are tin-eared pillocks, utterly out of touch with their electorate. The voters have spoken - and it is to say to Boris "fuck off and die". It has been clear for months that Partygate crystallised a "never again" sentiment against him. Only a new leader and PM can stop that sentiment bleeding into a toxicity for the Party.

    I've been saying this for months. Get Penny Mordaunt in, pronto. If she were PM, we would now have a Conservative MP in T&H. Possibly also in Wakefield. But in T&H especially, having to give support for Boris, however luke-warm, killed any credibility as a candidate. As it would for many of those who recently voted to keep him in post.

    The turnout figures tell many that Tories are sitting on their hands. I like Boris despite his peccadillos but he is now a drag on competent government and has lost it as a vote winner.

    I did predict the big winner would be the Can't Be Arsed Party.

    Tories can still get a big swing from CBA with a new leader.
    I'm not sure that is the case. So many of their 2019 voters - especially in the red wall - did not previously vote. They all voted for Brexit, then didn't vote in the 2017 election, then voted Tory in the 2019 election.

    If they have returned to utter apathy then the Tories will lose scores of seats whether Labour gain votes or not.
  • Andy_CookeAndy_Cooke Posts: 4,252

    That’s a 12.7% swing from Conservative to Labour. Biggest swing to Labour in this Parliament.

    Labour need a 10% swing to win a majority at the next election…


    https://twitter.com/lewis_goodall/status/1540167981208158208?

    Subtract 4% or so for Rod Crosby Swingback, NOM
    I went and had a look at the level of by-election swingback.

    From recollection, his rule was 4% swingback on the 2-party swing in by-elections, with error bars of 2%-6% swingback.

    And the 2010 GE (the first after that rule) didn't fall in that range. If it had, Labour would have ended up largest party.

    He explained it away as unusual down to the Lib Dem surge (I would therefore accept the 2015 GE as unusual as we had 2 parties in Government).

    The 2015 GE had a 7.2 percent swingback (!) from by-elections. Again, outside of the range in the other direction, but if we accept 2010 being special, then 2015 should also be regarded as special.

    The 2017 GE had a 0.8% swingaway from by-elections (that is: the Opposition did better in the GE than the average of by-elections). Had it followed the rule, we'd be looking at a blowout landslide for the Tories in 2017.

    The 2019 GE had a 0.1% swingaway. The GE swing was almost exactly the same as the average BE swing.

    In short, none of the four GEs since the rule was pronounced have come anywhere close to a 4% swingback, there has been no apparent consistency, and all have fallen well outside of the maximum error range.

    (Disclaimer: I've grabbed the figures and done the calcs quickly so may have made an arror that could blow out the results; it's worth checking. I excluded any by-elections where Con and Lab didn't both stand: eg Batley and Spen 2016, Richmond Park, Glasgow North East)
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 33,482

    Leon said:

    boulay said:

    pigeon said:

    OnboardG1 said:

    nico679 said:

    I think David Lammys comments on the EU were the best way forward .

    I don’t see Labour Remainers jumping ship because the party won’t commit to rejoining or joining the SM or CU.

    Repairing relations with the EU , agri food agreements etc seem hardly controversial .

    I just don’t see any appetite amongst my many Remainer friends to go through another fight over EU membership .

    More or less, can’t be bothered with that argument right now. Align standards where it’s sensible, stop picking fights with the French and get ready to play the long game.
    Indeed. I am not a re-joiner, but I think those who are of that persuasion must reconcile themselves to the idea that it's a generational project. After all, there's no incentive for the rest of the EU to consider letting us back in until it becomes obvious that there is a large and settled majority for that proposition (no less than 2:1 in favour) in both Parliament and the electorate.

    It took four over four decades for the souverainiste faction to get what they wanted. I can't see the re-joiners being ready to make a proper push for their aim in anything less than two.
    Yes, my CLP last night had a motion calling for re-joining. Everyone in the room agreed with him on the issue, but everyone except him agreed that it would be madness to propose it in the next Parliament. We urged the party to promise sensible, friendly parternship with the EU for the next 5
    years, and worry about re-joining in a future Parliament.
    I’m sure this will be an unpopular view with those here who dream of rejoining but here I go.

    Until intelligent people who dream of rejoining stop sodding dreaming of rejoining then Brexit can never be a success.

    If everyone intelligent who wanted to rejoin said “ok it’s not where we want to be but we are here so let’s throw our energies and weight into taking it out of the hands of the idiots who are running the show then it might just end up being a good thing for the country”.

    Think of it this way, the people voted (rightly or wrongly depending on your opinion) for Brexit. If there are senior civil servants, politicians, anyone of influence and use who are constantly trying to put up barriers to Brexit then it’s never going to work well.

    For a crap analogy, imagine you work for a part of a bank, the management team and some shareholders decide to do a management buy-out of the part of the bank you work for because they think it will work better and be more profitable and nimble in the future - yes it will lose economies of scale, maybe influence, all sorts of benefits but actually they are sure that these issues are outweighed by being standalone.

    You are angry as you liked being part of Moneybank Global as you could transfer to work in any other office, you personally thought that what your division lost by Moneybank’s rules were worth it for other benefits, some tangible and others more symbolic - part of a big global bank family.

    After the MBO you sit and sulk and slow down things - you hope that the management will say, “gosh you are right, this is crap, let’s rejoin Moneybank global”.

    If you had embraced it instead you could ensure that the direction it takes works but because you are being obstructive they put John Idiot in charge of the team and the outcome is worse than if you had stepped up to the plate.

    Because remainders with brains walked away in a strop it was left to John Idiots to drive how Brexit would work hence stupid speed of prioritising trade deals to show somethings being done.

    So everyone who sits there waiting for “rejoin” is ultimately buggering up the country more than is has to be. And don’t think that if we were to discuss rejoin with the EU that we would be going back in as before - all the opt outs would go and the EU would take their pound of flesh.

    So we can have a successful realistic Brexit if everyone pulls their weight or you can hold out for rejoin where rejoin might be rejoining something very different to what we had.

    You have identified the same problem as me. Remain has not gone away and lurks just beneath the surface of British political life, especially in the Labour Party (as we see from NPXMP's comment). Rejoiners and Remainers will never be reconciled to Brexit. So they will spend a decade or two putting spanners in the works, so Britain falls over, and we have to Rejoin

    Except that they will almost certainly fail, so they will be hobbling the country for no reason



    The stabbed in the back Brexit myth takes shape.
    And obvious nonsense it is. True believers have designed the Deal and implemented it.

    There is nothing that I as a doctor in the provinces that can do to make Brexit either a success or a failure. That is in the hands of the Brexiteers themselves. It is not in my power to undermine it in any way, other than by voting against the party of Brexit.

    They have no one to blame for their failures but themselves.
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 7,583
    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    boulay said:

    pigeon said:

    OnboardG1 said:

    nico679 said:

    I think David Lammys comments on the EU were the best way forward .

    I don’t see Labour Remainers jumping ship because the party won’t commit to rejoining or joining the SM or CU.

    Repairing relations with the EU , agri food agreements etc seem hardly controversial .

    I just don’t see any appetite amongst my many Remainer friends to go through another fight over EU membership .

    More or less, can’t be bothered with that argument right now. Align standards where it’s sensible, stop picking fights with the French and get ready to play the long game.
    Indeed. I am not a re-joiner, but I think those who are of that persuasion must reconcile themselves to the idea that it's a generational project. After all, there's no incentive for the rest of the EU to consider letting us back in until it becomes obvious that there is a large and settled majority for that proposition (no less than 2:1 in favour) in both Parliament and the electorate.

    It took four over four decades for the souverainiste faction to get what they wanted. I can't see the re-joiners being ready to make a proper push for their aim in anything less than two.
    Yes, my CLP last night had a motion calling for re-joining. Everyone in the room agreed with him on the issue, but everyone except him agreed that it would be madness to propose it in the next Parliament. We urged the party to promise sensible, friendly parternship with the EU for the next 5
    years, and worry about re-joining in a future Parliament.
    I’m sure this will be an unpopular view with those here who dream of rejoining but here I go.

    Until intelligent people who dream of rejoining stop sodding dreaming of rejoining then Brexit can never be a success.

    If everyone intelligent who wanted to rejoin said “ok it’s not where we want to be but we are here so let’s throw our energies and weight into taking it out of the hands of the idiots who are running the show then it might just end up being a good thing for the country”.

    Think of it this way, the people voted (rightly or wrongly depending on your opinion) for Brexit. If there are senior civil servants, politicians, anyone of influence and use who are constantly trying to put up barriers to Brexit then it’s never going to work well.

    For a crap analogy, imagine you work for a part of a bank, the management team and some shareholders decide to do a management buy-out of the part of the bank you work for because they think it will work better and be more profitable and nimble in the future - yes it will lose economies of scale, maybe influence, all sorts of benefits but actually they are sure that these issues are outweighed by being standalone.

    You are angry as you liked being part of Moneybank Global as you could transfer to work in any other office, you personally thought that what your division lost by Moneybank’s rules were worth it for other benefits, some tangible and others more symbolic - part of a big global bank family.

    After the MBO you sit and sulk and slow down things - you hope that the management will say, “gosh you are right, this is crap, let’s rejoin Moneybank global”.

    If you had embraced it instead you could ensure that the direction it takes works but because you are being obstructive they put John Idiot in charge of the team and the outcome is worse than if you had stepped up to the plate.

    Because remainders with brains walked away in a strop it was left to John Idiots to drive how Brexit would work hence stupid speed of prioritising trade deals to show somethings being done.

    So everyone who sits there waiting for “rejoin” is ultimately buggering up the country more than is has to be. And don’t think that if we were to discuss rejoin with the EU that we would be going back in as before - all the opt outs would go and the EU would take their pound of flesh.

    So we can have a successful realistic Brexit if everyone pulls their weight or you can hold out for rejoin where rejoin might be rejoining something very different to what we had.

    You have identified the same problem as me. Remain has not gone away and lurks just beneath the surface of British political life, especially in the Labour Party (as we see from NPXMP's comment). Rejoiners and Remainers will never be reconciled to Brexit. So they will spend a decade or two putting spanners in the works, so Britain falls over, and we have to Rejoin

    Except that they will almost certainly fail, so they will be hobbling the country for no reason
    The economic data is clear and unambiguous - Boris's Brexit deal has "hobbled the country" as you put it. That is not to say that no form of Brexit could work economically - far from it. Only that *this* form of Brexit has been economically damaging.

    Your problem is that you are obsessively fighting the last battle. As are the minority of hardcore rejoiners AND hardcore no-dealers. All need to be set aside, we are where we are. Even if a UK government in a few years wanted back into the UK there is no way they would let us.

    So just like the fantasies of no deal and Singapore-on-Thames "lets leave the WTO" Brexit, the rejoiners are in fantasy land and can be left to it.

    So what we have to do is fix Brexit. Because it has and will continue to cause economic damage and make our businesses and exporters less competitive. That is strategically damaging in the long term as well as the short term hit.
    Well then you need to talk to "all the members of NPXMP's constituency Labour Party" who apparently want to Rejoin, and who are quietly working towards that

    This is my point. I entirely accept that you and others are *reconciled* to Brexit, but many people are not, especially politically active people in the Labour Party and the Lib Dems. They want to Rejoin, passionately, and they have not given up - not at all

    Until THEY are reconciled, this problem will bedevil us. I cannot see an easy solution, because this is a question of faith
    We could have a Norway or Switzerland type solution but your types have consistently rules that out.
  • EPGEPG Posts: 4,493
    boulay said:

    eek said:

    boulay said:

    pigeon said:

    OnboardG1 said:

    nico679 said:

    I think David Lammys comments on the EU were the best way forward .

    I don’t see Labour Remainers jumping ship because the party won’t commit to rejoining or joining the SM or CU.

    Repairing relations with the EU , agri food agreements etc seem hardly controversial .

    I just don’t see any appetite amongst my many Remainer friends to go through another fight over EU membership .

    More or less, can’t be bothered with that argument right now. Align standards where it’s sensible, stop picking fights with the French and get ready to play the long game.
    Indeed. I am not a re-joiner, but I think those who are of that persuasion must reconcile themselves to the idea that it's a generational project. After all, there's no incentive for the rest of the EU to consider letting us back in until it becomes obvious that there is a large and settled majority for that proposition (no less than 2:1 in favour) in both Parliament and the electorate.

    It took four over four decades for the souverainiste faction to get what they wanted. I can't see the re-joiners being ready to make a proper push for their aim in anything less than two.
    Yes, my CLP last night had a motion calling for re-joining. Everyone in the room agreed with him on the issue, but everyone except him agreed that it would be madness to propose it in the next Parliament. We urged the party to promise sensible, friendly parternship with the EU for the next 5
    years, and worry about re-joining in a future Parliament.
    I’m sure this will be an unpopular view with those here who dream of rejoining but here I go.

    Until intelligent people who dream of rejoining stop sodding dreaming of rejoining then Brexit can never be a success.

    If everyone intelligent who wanted to rejoin said “ok it’s not where we want to be but we are here so let’s throw our energies and weight into taking it out of the hands of the idiots who are running the show then it might just end up being a good thing for the country”.

    Think of it this way, the people voted (rightly or wrongly depending on your opinion) for Brexit. If there are senior civil servants, politicians, anyone of influence and use who are constantly trying to put up barriers to Brexit then it’s never going to work well.

    For a crap analogy, imagine you work for a part of a bank, the management team and some shareholders decide to do a management buy-out of the part of the bank you work for because they think it will work better and be more profitable and nimble in the future - yes it will lose economies of scale, maybe influence, all sorts of benefits but actually they are sure that these issues are outweighed by being standalone.

    You are angry as you liked being part of Moneybank Global as you could transfer to work in any other office, you personally thought that what your division lost by Moneybank’s rules were worth it for other benefits, some tangible and others more symbolic - part of a big global bank family.

    After the MBO you sit and sulk and slow down things - you hope that the management will say, “gosh you are right, this is crap, let’s rejoin Moneybank global”.

    If you had embraced it instead you could ensure that the direction it takes works but because you are being obstructive they put John Idiot in charge of the team and the outcome is worse than if you had stepped up to the plate.

    Because remainders with brains walked away in a strop it was left to John Idiots to drive how Brexit would work hence stupid speed of prioritising trade deals to show somethings being done.

    So everyone who sits there waiting for “rejoin” is ultimately buggering up the country more than is has to be. And don’t think that if we were to discuss rejoin with the EU that we would be going back in as before - all the opt outs would go and the EU would take their pound of flesh.

    So we can have a successful realistic Brexit if everyone pulls their weight or you can hold out for rejoin where rejoin might be rejoining something very different to what we had.

    Sorry but Bozo the clown is in charge alongside a group of grade A muppets so although a deal with the EU is the samechoice (after all they are next door to us) that isn't an option..

    We could have a successful realistic Brexit but that requires the people in power to be realistic and to understand the actual position we are in not the completely imaginary one they believe Britain is in.
    That’s sort of part of my point - we are left with the ideological idiots running Brexit and therefore screwing it up because those people who might have been able to manage it better were also ideological and either walked away or obstructed.

    If sensible people who hate Brexit had got on with it then maybe there would be a better mix in charge of implementing it and thus successfully finding the benefits and minimising the negatives. Whilst they are acting like a resistance movement they can’t actually water down the ones left by default to deal with things.
    We tried "grown up Brexit" under TMay. Guys like Farage screamed it was a backstab betrayal and we needed hardline cheating full fortress Rwanda Brexit under the clown. And the actual, real-life people who voted for Brexit agreed.
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 19,775

    Leon said:

    boulay said:

    pigeon said:

    OnboardG1 said:

    nico679 said:

    I think David Lammys comments on the EU were the best way forward .

    I don’t see Labour Remainers jumping ship because the party won’t commit to rejoining or joining the SM or CU.

    Repairing relations with the EU , agri food agreements etc seem hardly controversial .

    I just don’t see any appetite amongst my many Remainer friends to go through another fight over EU membership .

    More or less, can’t be bothered with that argument right now. Align standards where it’s sensible, stop picking fights with the French and get ready to play the long game.
    Indeed. I am not a re-joiner, but I think those who are of that persuasion must reconcile themselves to the idea that it's a generational project. After all, there's no incentive for the rest of the EU to consider letting us back in until it becomes obvious that there is a large and settled majority for that proposition (no less than 2:1 in favour) in both Parliament and the electorate.

    It took four over four decades for the souverainiste faction to get what they wanted. I can't see the re-joiners being ready to make a proper push for their aim in anything less than two.
    Yes, my CLP last night had a motion calling for re-joining. Everyone in the room agreed with him on the issue, but everyone except him agreed that it would be madness to propose it in the next Parliament. We urged the party to promise sensible, friendly parternship with the EU for the next 5
    years, and worry about re-joining in a future Parliament.
    I’m sure this will be an unpopular view with those here who dream of rejoining but here I go.

    Until intelligent people who dream of rejoining stop sodding dreaming of rejoining then Brexit can never be a success.

    If everyone intelligent who wanted to rejoin said “ok it’s not where we want to be but we are here so let’s throw our energies and weight into taking it out of the hands of the idiots who are running the show then it might just end up being a good thing for the country”.

    Think of it this way, the people voted (rightly or wrongly depending on your opinion) for Brexit. If there are senior civil servants, politicians, anyone of influence and use who are constantly trying to put up barriers to Brexit then it’s never going to work well.

    For a crap analogy, imagine you work for a part of a bank, the management team and some shareholders decide to do a management buy-out of the part of the bank you work for because they think it will work better and be more profitable and nimble in the future - yes it will lose economies of scale, maybe influence, all sorts of benefits but actually they are sure that these issues are outweighed by being standalone.

    You are angry as you liked being part of Moneybank Global as you could transfer to work in any other office, you personally thought that what your division lost by Moneybank’s rules were worth it for other benefits, some tangible and others more symbolic - part of a big global bank family.

    After the MBO you sit and sulk and slow down things - you hope that the management will say, “gosh you are right, this is crap, let’s rejoin Moneybank global”.

    If you had embraced it instead you could ensure that the direction it takes works but because you are being obstructive they put John Idiot in charge of the team and the outcome is worse than if you had stepped up to the plate.

    Because remainders with brains walked away in a strop it was left to John Idiots to drive how Brexit would work hence stupid speed of prioritising trade deals to show somethings being done.

    So everyone who sits there waiting for “rejoin” is ultimately buggering up the country more than is has to be. And don’t think that if we were to discuss rejoin with the EU that we would be going back in as before - all the opt outs would go and the EU would take their pound of flesh.

    So we can have a successful realistic Brexit if everyone pulls their weight or you can hold out for rejoin where rejoin might be rejoining something very different to what we had.

    You have identified the same problem as me. Remain has not gone away and lurks just beneath the surface of British political life, especially in the Labour Party (as we see from NPXMP's comment). Rejoiners and Remainers will never be reconciled to Brexit. So they will spend a decade or two putting spanners in the works, so Britain falls over, and we have to Rejoin

    Except that they will almost certainly fail, so they will be hobbling the country for no reason



    I was Remain. I voted to stay. I think it was a disaster to leave, especially economically.

    But I am reconciled. There is no going back in my lifetime.

    Going back means joining the Euro, unless they somehow fix the rules of entry, and that would be a disaster way beyond anything Brexit is doing.

    None of two major parties will be prepared to risk present the public with the option of freedom of movement imho. So again, we can't rejoin as SM is part of rejoin.

    We need to find a way to trade and live with the EU on our doorstep. This lot around Johnson are not interested in doing that as they want to keep its failure as a wedge issue for 2024.

    We reach a bilateral deal with the EEA like the Swiss have done. Pick and choose what we want and what the EEA will accept. Like the Swiss. Not EU, not EEA, not CU. "Independent" with continued alignment and mutual free access to each other's markets.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 41,024
    JonWC said:

    Carnyx said:

    JonWC said:

    Carnyx said:

    https://www.devonlive.com/news/devon-news/tiverton-honiton-election-tory-candidate-7248805

    (with film)

    'Accompanied by Tory party officials, she arrived at the count before hiding away in a back room. When approached by DevonLive reporter Lewis Clarke her agent says "We are not speaking" and ushers Mr Hurford away. She simply smiles and says "Oh have they" after being told that the Liberal Democrats have just declared a spectacular win, as the votes stacked in their favour and the 24,000 Tory majority is slashed, with a 30 per cent swing to the Lib Dems.

    Ms Hurford and her supporters remained in the back room until the results were announced , with the Liberal Democrats winning 22,537 votes, and the Tories in second place on 16,393. After her ignominious defeat she hastily left the building without any public statement or comment to the press.'

    Really odd thing to do as she would surely know Lewis personally as pretty much everyone who has been politically active in Tiverton at any time does.
    And your point about returning to Tory hands at the next GE means that she could have been in a position to try again (ignoring those odd gaps in her website CV). So unwise of her to waste all the effort she has put in.
    I'd guess she's had enough for a lifetime tbh. Ironic, as her unfortunate speaking style would have been irrelevant at a GE and she would have cruised to victory.
    All she has to do is go on the media and say that she has endured four weeks of voters in the seat telling her that they have had enough of Johnson, and hence he should go. It's her last chance to make a difference.
  • eekeek Posts: 20,265

    DougSeal said:

    malcolmg said:

    rcs1000 said:

    OnboardG1 said:

    Meanwhile, I’m finding myself glad I didn’t order a Toyota for this round of new car shopping:

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-61919424

    “Motor industry giant Toyota is recalling 2,700 of its first mass-produced all-electric vehicles over concerns their wheels may fall off.”

    Now, I love me an EV, but this seems like an enormously poor headline to have when launching your first one.

    We got our first EV in the spring: the fantastic BMW Mini. God, that’s a great wee vehicle, despite its Union Jacks all over the place. Dreadful range, but heck, I’m not planning on driving to Monte Carlo in the damn thing.

    I’m a total convert. This time last year I was an ICE fan.

    The problem is we need to replace the Volvo SUV soon, and I’m less keen on EV technology for the 6 hour journeys that that vehicle undertakes on occasion. Sweden is a *very* big country.
    No one's hatred of EVs survives ownership of one.

    (I'm on my third.)
    I think there's very little hatred of EVs. The problem is that they're too costly and not effective enough for anyone who is not either fairly well-off, or really into cars.

    Just this morning I was looking at the Hyundai Ioniq5. This is a well-regarded EV, with a range of up to 315 miles. Best of all it is not a Tesla.

    But it costs £40k to £52k.

    The smaller Kona EV has a similar range, and costs from £30K. The ICE Hyundai i30 Tourer starts at £22k.

    We simply cannot justify spending that much on a car. Hopefully that will change within a few years, and second-hand cars become more available.
    It’s the Ioniq I want to buy to replace the XC60, but the wife hates the looks. Can’t stand Teslas: they are a bloody plague around here. Boring as hell, which is of course why Swedes adore them.

    Yes, EVS are dear to buy, but cheap to run, *IF* you have your own off-road parking and install a charger at home.
    Given the electricity prices in UK it will soon be dearer to charge an EV than to fill a diesel.
    Personally I am going for a Range Rover Velar this time but will be nice and settle for a 2L to do my bit.
    Bless.
    Why bless? He's right. The stunted rapid charging network is a monopoly for which ever provider is at the motorway service area or big forecourt and they charge *lots*. Until the price of fuel started soaring there were live examples where the KWh price and realistic consumption on something like a Mercedes EQC was more per mile than a GLE on diesel.

    Yes, that balance has flipped at the moment, but it won't stay there.
    We know 3 people are looking at buying houses at the moment. All of them were initially looking at the large terraces in the posh part of town until I asked where was the car(s) going to be charged?
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 16,953
    What a great start to the day. The Tories receive two hefty kicks in the nads, and a scantily clad Natalie Imbruglia on the front page of The Sun.

    Certainly gave me a lift this morning.
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 19,775

    My take on the By Elections.

    Two centre right men have been replaced by two centre right men

    Go about your business nothing changes.

    Quite right too. Where were the parties representing the working man in Wakefield? Where was Scargill when you needed him?
  • maxhmaxh Posts: 57

    boulay said:

    pigeon said:

    OnboardG1 said:

    nico679 said:

    I think David Lammys comments on the EU were the best way forward .

    I don’t see Labour Remainers jumping ship because the party won’t commit to rejoining or joining the SM or CU.

    Repairing relations with the EU , agri food agreements etc seem hardly controversial .

    I just don’t see any appetite amongst my many Remainer friends to go through another fight over EU membership .

    More or less, can’t be bothered with that argument right now. Align standards where it’s sensible, stop picking fights with the French and get ready to play the long game.
    Indeed. I am not a re-joiner, but I think those who are of that persuasion must reconcile themselves to the idea that it's a generational project. After all, there's no incentive for the rest of the EU to consider letting us back in until it becomes obvious that there is a large and settled majority for that proposition (no less than 2:1 in favour) in both Parliament and the electorate.

    It took four over four decades for the souverainiste faction to get what they wanted. I can't see the re-joiners being ready to make a proper push for their aim in anything less than two.
    Yes, my CLP last night had a motion calling for re-joining. Everyone in the room agreed with him on the issue, but everyone except him agreed that it would be madness to propose it in the next Parliament. We urged the party to promise sensible, friendly parternship with the EU for the next 5
    years, and worry about re-joining in a future Parliament.
    I’m sure this will be an unpopular view with those here who dream of rejoining but here I go.

    Until intelligent people who dream of rejoining stop sodding dreaming of rejoining then Brexit can never be a success.

    If everyone intelligent who wanted to rejoin said “ok it’s not where we want to be but we are here so let’s throw our energies and weight into taking it out of the hands of the idiots who are running the show then it might just end up being a good thing for the country”.

    Think of it this way, the people voted (rightly or wrongly depending on your opinion) for Brexit. If there are senior civil servants, politicians, anyone of influence and use who are constantly trying to put up barriers to Brexit then it’s never going to work well.

    For a crap analogy, imagine you work for a part of a bank, the management team and some shareholders decide to do a management buy-out of the part of the bank you work for because they think it will work better and be more profitable and nimble in the future - yes it will lose economies of scale, maybe influence, all sorts of benefits but actually they are sure that these issues are outweighed by being standalone.

    You are angry as you liked being part of Moneybank Global as you could transfer to work in any other office, you personally thought that what your division lost by Moneybank’s rules were worth it for other benefits, some tangible and others more symbolic - part of a big global bank family.

    After the MBO you sit and sulk and slow down things - you hope that the management will say, “gosh you are right, this is crap, let’s rejoin Moneybank global”.

    If you had embraced it instead you could ensure that the direction it takes works but because you are being obstructive they put John Idiot in charge of the team and the outcome is worse than if you had stepped up to the plate.

    Because remainders with brains walked away in a strop it was left to John Idiots to drive how Brexit would work hence stupid speed of prioritising trade deals to show somethings being done.

    So everyone who sits there waiting for “rejoin” is ultimately buggering up the country more than is has to be. And don’t think that if we were to discuss rejoin with the EU that we would be going back in as before - all the opt outs would go and the EU would take their pound of flesh.

    So we can have a successful realistic Brexit if everyone pulls their weight or you can hold out for rejoin where rejoin might be rejoining something very different to what we had.

    Brexit is just a bad idea and cannot succeed on the terms it was sold on as they were contradictory. You are right that an additional problem that Brexit faces is that an overwhelming majority of the kind of competent, intelligent people who are needed to implement policy think it is a stupid idea, but that is a secondary issue. The main issue is that it actually is a stupid idea.
    As an ardent remainer I agree with you @OnlyLivingBoy but @boulay is still half right. He/she/they takes the argument too far by appearing to pin the blame on remainers for Johnson's crap brexit, but it is still the case that we voted to leave the EU and everything that follows is in light of that.

    To my mind it is a fairly simple choice between (a) try to cope with the economic calamity that is brexit, and work to minimise it or (b) try to cope with the political calamity that would be ignoring the will of the country, however flawed the process was that got us to the brexit vote.

    The horrendous political behaviour of Johnson's government has made (b) far, far harder to do, because the political debate is so toxic at present. In this context, a sensible Labour government should focus more on rebuilding our democracy by visibly respecting a result they disagreed with and working with it, than on whether we are part of the EU.

    I lay the blame for the fact that we are unable to have a sensible, calm debate about a major policy that appears not to be working almost entirely at the current government's feet and their cheerleaders in the media and elsewhere - a government that was more respectful of our democracy would have left space for this debate. But we are where we are, and none of the options are great at this point.

  • kle4kle4 Posts: 77,249

    ❗ NEW TRACKER:

    🔴 Labour lead by 6
    🟡 Highest Lib Dem share in six months
    🔵 Two-thirds not confident in government

    Lab 38% (-1)
    Con 32% (-1)
    Lib Dem 14% (+1)
    Green 6% (+1)
    SNP 4% (nc)

    1,630 questioned Wed & Thu. Changes with 15 - 16 June.

    Details - technetracker.co.uk

    Feels like anything between 8-16 or so doesn't make a massive difference to the LDs unless they can target the amount really well, as in Scotland to a degree. Only once they get higher than that do they have broad enough support to bring many other seats into play.

    Thats not detailed analysis just gut feeling.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 41,024
    Leon said:

    boulay said:

    pigeon said:

    OnboardG1 said:

    nico679 said:

    I think David Lammys comments on the EU were the best way forward .

    I don’t see Labour Remainers jumping ship because the party won’t commit to rejoining or joining the SM or CU.

    Repairing relations with the EU , agri food agreements etc seem hardly controversial .

    I just don’t see any appetite amongst my many Remainer friends to go through another fight over EU membership .

    More or less, can’t be bothered with that argument right now. Align standards where it’s sensible, stop picking fights with the French and get ready to play the long game.
    Indeed. I am not a re-joiner, but I think those who are of that persuasion must reconcile themselves to the idea that it's a generational project. After all, there's no incentive for the rest of the EU to consider letting us back in until it becomes obvious that there is a large and settled majority for that proposition (no less than 2:1 in favour) in both Parliament and the electorate.

    It took four over four decades for the souverainiste faction to get what they wanted. I can't see the re-joiners being ready to make a proper push for their aim in anything less than two.
    Yes, my CLP last night had a motion calling for re-joining. Everyone in the room agreed with him on the issue, but everyone except him agreed that it would be madness to propose it in the next Parliament. We urged the party to promise sensible, friendly parternship with the EU for the next 5
    years, and worry about re-joining in a future Parliament.
    I’m sure this will be an unpopular view with those here who dream of rejoining but here I go.

    Until intelligent people who dream of rejoining stop sodding dreaming of rejoining then Brexit can never be a success.

    If everyone intelligent who wanted to rejoin said “ok it’s not where we want to be but we are here so let’s throw our energies and weight into taking it out of the hands of the idiots who are running the show then it might just end up being a good thing for the country”.

    Think of it this way, the people voted (rightly or wrongly depending on your opinion) for Brexit. If there are senior civil servants, politicians, anyone of influence and use who are constantly trying to put up barriers to Brexit then it’s never going to work well.

    For a crap analogy, imagine you work for a part of a bank, the management team and some shareholders decide to do a management buy-out of the part of the bank you work for because they think it will work better and be more profitable and nimble in the future - yes it will lose economies of scale, maybe influence, all sorts of benefits but actually they are sure that these issues are outweighed by being standalone.

    You are angry as you liked being part of Moneybank Global as you could transfer to work in any other office, you personally thought that what your division lost by Moneybank’s rules were worth it for other benefits, some tangible and others more symbolic - part of a big global bank family.

    After the MBO you sit and sulk and slow down things - you hope that the management will say, “gosh you are right, this is crap, let’s rejoin Moneybank global”.

    If you had embraced it instead you could ensure that the direction it takes works but because you are being obstructive they put John Idiot in charge of the team and the outcome is worse than if you had stepped up to the plate.

    Because remainders with brains walked away in a strop it was left to John Idiots to drive how Brexit would work hence stupid speed of prioritising trade deals to show somethings being done.

    So everyone who sits there waiting for “rejoin” is ultimately buggering up the country more than is has to be. And don’t think that if we were to discuss rejoin with the EU that we would be going back in as before - all the opt outs would go and the EU would take their pound of flesh.

    So we can have a successful realistic Brexit if everyone pulls their weight or you can hold out for rejoin where rejoin might be rejoining something very different to what we had.

    You have identified the same problem as me. Remain has not gone away and lurks just beneath the surface of British political life, especially in the Labour Party (as we see from NPXMP's comment). Rejoiners and Remainers will never be reconciled to Brexit. So they will spend a decade or two putting spanners in the works, so Britain falls over, and we have to Rejoin

    Except that they will almost certainly fail, so they will be hobbling the country for no reason



    Of course that must be the case.

    For the argument that it was a foolish idea advanced by foolish people for foolish reasons is far too straightforward to be true.
  • My take on the By Elections.

    Two centre right men have been replaced by two centre right men

    Go about your business nothing changes.

    Quite right too. Where were the parties representing the working man in Wakefield? Where was Scargill when you needed him?
    Scargill was probably busy selling his latest property for a profit
  • glwglw Posts: 8,406

    We reach a bilateral deal with the EEA like the Swiss have done. Pick and choose what we want and what the EEA will accept. Like the Swiss. Not EU, not EEA, not CU. "Independent" with continued alignment and mutual free access to each other's markets.

    Great, how do I vote for these people?

    Currently my choice is:
    1. Brexit is already perfect.
    2. Don't talk about Brexit. (Rejoin by stealth).
    3. Rejoin.

  • EPGEPG Posts: 4,493
    The merely political problem, beyond all the policy and principled problems with separating from Europe, was ramming the most hardline nationalist English Brexit down the throats of voters on a 52% mandate.
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 7,583

    My take on the By Elections.

    Two centre right men have been replaced by two centre right men

    Go about your business nothing changes.

    Quite right too. Where were the parties representing the working man in Wakefield? Where was Scargill when you needed him?
    In his Barbican flat?
  • LeonLeon Posts: 24,048

    boulay said:

    pigeon said:

    OnboardG1 said:

    nico679 said:

    I think David Lammys comments on the EU were the best way forward .

    I don’t see Labour Remainers jumping ship because the party won’t commit to rejoining or joining the SM or CU.

    Repairing relations with the EU , agri food agreements etc seem hardly controversial .

    I just don’t see any appetite amongst my many Remainer friends to go through another fight over EU membership .

    More or less, can’t be bothered with that argument right now. Align standards where it’s sensible, stop picking fights with the French and get ready to play the long game.
    Indeed. I am not a re-joiner, but I think those who are of that persuasion must reconcile themselves to the idea that it's a generational project. After all, there's no incentive for the rest of the EU to consider letting us back in until it becomes obvious that there is a large and settled majority for that proposition (no less than 2:1 in favour) in both Parliament and the electorate.

    It took four over four decades for the souverainiste faction to get what they wanted. I can't see the re-joiners being ready to make a proper push for their aim in anything less than two.
    Yes, my CLP last night had a motion calling for re-joining. Everyone in the room agreed with him on the issue, but everyone except him agreed that it would be madness to propose it in the next Parliament. We urged the party to promise sensible, friendly parternship with the EU for the next 5
    years, and worry about re-joining in a future Parliament.
    I’m sure this will be an unpopular view with those here who dream of rejoining but here I go.

    Until intelligent people who dream of rejoining stop sodding dreaming of rejoining then Brexit can never be a success.

    If everyone intelligent who wanted to rejoin said “ok it’s not where we want to be but we are here so let’s throw our energies and weight into taking it out of the hands of the idiots who are running the show then it might just end up being a good thing for the country”.

    Think of it this way, the people voted (rightly or wrongly depending on your opinion) for Brexit. If there are senior civil servants, politicians, anyone of influence and use who are constantly trying to put up barriers to Brexit then it’s never going to work well.

    For a crap analogy, imagine you work for a part of a bank, the management team and some shareholders decide to do a management buy-out of the part of the bank you work for because they think it will work better and be more profitable and nimble in the future - yes it will lose economies of scale, maybe influence, all sorts of benefits but actually they are sure that these issues are outweighed by being standalone.

    You are angry as you liked being part of Moneybank Global as you could transfer to work in any other office, you personally thought that what your division lost by Moneybank’s rules were worth it for other benefits, some tangible and others more symbolic - part of a big global bank family.

    After the MBO you sit and sulk and slow down things - you hope that the management will say, “gosh you are right, this is crap, let’s rejoin Moneybank global”.

    If you had embraced it instead you could ensure that the direction it takes works but because you are being obstructive they put John Idiot in charge of the team and the outcome is worse than if you had stepped up to the plate.

    Because remainders with brains walked away in a strop it was left to John Idiots to drive how Brexit would work hence stupid speed of prioritising trade deals to show somethings being done.

    So everyone who sits there waiting for “rejoin” is ultimately buggering up the country more than is has to be. And don’t think that if we were to discuss rejoin with the EU that we would be going back in as before - all the opt outs would go and the EU would take their pound of flesh.

    So we can have a successful realistic Brexit if everyone pulls their weight or you can hold out for rejoin where rejoin might be rejoining something very different to what we had.

    Brexit is just a bad idea and cannot succeed on the terms it was sold on as they were contradictory. You are right that an additional problem that Brexit faces is that an overwhelming majority of the kind of competent, intelligent people who are needed to implement policy think it is a stupid idea, but that is a secondary issue. The main issue is that it actually is a stupid idea.
    So: you want to Rejoin?
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 19,775
    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    boulay said:

    pigeon said:

    OnboardG1 said:

    nico679 said:

    I think David Lammys comments on the EU were the best way forward .

    I don’t see Labour Remainers jumping ship because the party won’t commit to rejoining or joining the SM or CU.

    Repairing relations with the EU , agri food agreements etc seem hardly controversial .

    I just don’t see any appetite amongst my many Remainer friends to go through another fight over EU membership .

    More or less, can’t be bothered with that argument right now. Align standards where it’s sensible, stop picking fights with the French and get ready to play the long game.
    Indeed. I am not a re-joiner, but I think those who are of that persuasion must reconcile themselves to the idea that it's a generational project. After all, there's no incentive for the rest of the EU to consider letting us back in until it becomes obvious that there is a large and settled majority for that proposition (no less than 2:1 in favour) in both Parliament and the electorate.

    It took four over four decades for the souverainiste faction to get what they wanted. I can't see the re-joiners being ready to make a proper push for their aim in anything less than two.
    Yes, my CLP last night had a motion calling for re-joining. Everyone in the room agreed with him on the issue, but everyone except him agreed that it would be madness to propose it in the next Parliament. We urged the party to promise sensible, friendly parternship with the EU for the next 5
    years, and worry about re-joining in a future Parliament.
    I’m sure this will be an unpopular view with those here who dream of rejoining but here I go.

    Until intelligent people who dream of rejoining stop sodding dreaming of rejoining then Brexit can never be a success.

    If everyone intelligent who wanted to rejoin said “ok it’s not where we want to be but we are here so let’s throw our energies and weight into taking it out of the hands of the idiots who are running the show then it might just end up being a good thing for the country”.

    Think of it this way, the people voted (rightly or wrongly depending on your opinion) for Brexit. If there are senior civil servants, politicians, anyone of influence and use who are constantly trying to put up barriers to Brexit then it’s never going to work well.

    For a crap analogy, imagine you work for a part of a bank, the management team and some shareholders decide to do a management buy-out of the part of the bank you work for because they think it will work better and be more profitable and nimble in the future - yes it will lose economies of scale, maybe influence, all sorts of benefits but actually they are sure that these issues are outweighed by being standalone.

    You are angry as you liked being part of Moneybank Global as you could transfer to work in any other office, you personally thought that what your division lost by Moneybank’s rules were worth it for other benefits, some tangible and others more symbolic - part of a big global bank family.

    After the MBO you sit and sulk and slow down things - you hope that the management will say, “gosh you are right, this is crap, let’s rejoin Moneybank global”.

    If you had embraced it instead you could ensure that the direction it takes works but because you are being obstructive they put John Idiot in charge of the team and the outcome is worse than if you had stepped up to the plate.

    Because remainders with brains walked away in a strop it was left to John Idiots to drive how Brexit would work hence stupid speed of prioritising trade deals to show somethings being done.

    So everyone who sits there waiting for “rejoin” is ultimately buggering up the country more than is has to be. And don’t think that if we were to discuss rejoin with the EU that we would be going back in as before - all the opt outs would go and the EU would take their pound of flesh.

    So we can have a successful realistic Brexit if everyone pulls their weight or you can hold out for rejoin where rejoin might be rejoining something very different to what we had.

    You have identified the same problem as me. Remain has not gone away and lurks just beneath the surface of British political life, especially in the Labour Party (as we see from NPXMP's comment). Rejoiners and Remainers will never be reconciled to Brexit. So they will spend a decade or two putting spanners in the works, so Britain falls over, and we have to Rejoin

    Except that they will almost certainly fail, so they will be hobbling the country for no reason
    The economic data is clear and unambiguous - Boris's Brexit deal has "hobbled the country" as you put it. That is not to say that no form of Brexit could work economically - far from it. Only that *this* form of Brexit has been economically damaging.

    Your problem is that you are obsessively fighting the last battle. As are the minority of hardcore rejoiners AND hardcore no-dealers. All need to be set aside, we are where we are. Even if a UK government in a few years wanted back into the UK there is no way they would let us.

    So just like the fantasies of no deal and Singapore-on-Thames "lets leave the WTO" Brexit, the rejoiners are in fantasy land and can be left to it.

    So what we have to do is fix Brexit. Because it has and will continue to cause economic damage and make our businesses and exporters less competitive. That is strategically damaging in the long term as well as the short term hit.
    Well then you need to talk to "all the members of NPXMP's constituency Labour Party" who apparently want to Rejoin, and who are quietly working towards that

    This is my point. I entirely accept that you and others are *reconciled* to Brexit, but many people are not, especially politically active people in the Labour Party and the Lib Dems. They want to Rejoin, passionately, and they have not given up - not at all

    Until THEY are reconciled, this problem will bedevil us. I cannot see an easy solution, because this is a question of faith
    Leon luv, you do know that I *voted* for Brexit. I do not need to be reconciled to something I supported (however naively).

    This problem will not bedevil anyone. Because the people who foam on about it on both sides are small in number and best ignored. Anyway, its not like the only reason you can't vote Labour is because of the members of Nick's CLP, its because Labour represent woke trans deviance.

    THAT is an issue that sadly will always bedevil you. Chicks with dicks hiding under every table! Beware!
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 21,870
    edited June 24
    The Tories should ensure by-elections are grouped together and decided by PR, they would have won a seat last night.

    https://twitter.com/JohnRentoul/status/1540243845509685249?s=20&t=7BxpApTcJtB3OHHJjh0CuQ

    Total votes:
    image
  • SelebianSelebian Posts: 3,859
    boulay said:

    pigeon said:

    OnboardG1 said:

    nico679 said:

    I think David Lammys comments on the EU were the best way forward .

    I don’t see Labour Remainers jumping ship because the party won’t commit to rejoining or joining the SM or CU.

    Repairing relations with the EU , agri food agreements etc seem hardly controversial .

    I just don’t see any appetite amongst my many Remainer friends to go through another fight over EU membership .

    More or less, can’t be bothered with that argument right now. Align standards where it’s sensible, stop picking fights with the French and get ready to play the long game.
    Indeed. I am not a re-joiner, but I think those who are of that persuasion must reconcile themselves to the idea that it's a generational project. After all, there's no incentive for the rest of the EU to consider letting us back in until it becomes obvious that there is a large and settled majority for that proposition (no less than 2:1 in favour) in both Parliament and the electorate.

    It took four over four decades for the souverainiste faction to get what they wanted. I can't see the re-joiners being ready to make a proper push for their aim in anything less than two.
    Yes, my CLP last night had a motion calling for re-joining. Everyone in the room agreed with him on the issue, but everyone except him agreed that it would be madness to propose it in the next Parliament. We urged the party to promise sensible, friendly parternship with the EU for the next 5
    years, and worry about re-joining in a future Parliament.
    I’m sure this will be an unpopular view with those here who dream of rejoining but here I go.

    Until intelligent people who dream of rejoining stop sodding dreaming of rejoining then Brexit can never be a success.

    If everyone intelligent who wanted to rejoin said “ok it’s not where we want to be but we are here so let’s throw our energies and weight into taking it out of the hands of the idiots who are running the show then it might just end up being a good thing for the country”.

    Think of it this way, the people voted (rightly or wrongly depending on your opinion) for Brexit. If there are senior civil servants, politicians, anyone of influence and use who are constantly trying to put up barriers to Brexit then it’s never going to work well.

    For a crap analogy, imagine you work for a part of a bank, the management team and some shareholders decide to do a management buy-out of the part of the bank you work for because they think it will work better and be more profitable and nimble in the future - yes it will lose economies of scale, maybe influence, all sorts of benefits but actually they are sure that these issues are outweighed by being standalone.

    You are angry as you liked being part of Moneybank Global as you could transfer to work in any other office, you personally thought that what your division lost by Moneybank’s rules were worth it for other benefits, some tangible and others more symbolic - part of a big global bank family.

    After the MBO you sit and sulk and slow down things - you hope that the management will say, “gosh you are right, this is crap, let’s rejoin Moneybank global”.

    If you had embraced it instead you could ensure that the direction it takes works but because you are being obstructive they put John Idiot in charge of the team and the outcome is worse than if you had stepped up to the plate.

    Because remainders with brains walked away in a strop it was left to John Idiots to drive how Brexit would work hence stupid speed of prioritising trade deals to show somethings being done.

    So everyone who sits there waiting for “rejoin” is ultimately buggering up the country more than is has to be. And don’t think that if we were to discuss rejoin with the EU that we would be going back in as before - all the opt outs would go and the EU would take their pound of flesh.

    So we can have a successful realistic Brexit if everyone pulls their weight or you can hold out for rejoin where rejoin might be rejoining something very different to what we had.

    Yep. Bugger rejoin, for the short-medium term, at least.

    The trouble is that, as a former remainer, my way of making Brexit work would be to make it less Brexity. EEA or similar (that's also what I think the government should have pursued, perhaps with a confirmatory referendum with that and harder options, but withut rejoin).

    To run with your analogy, your Minibank has not only left Moneybank but has decided to stop working with VISA, Mastercard, SWIFT etc because those are things are seen as tainted by Moneybank's involvement. I'd rejoin those things that make trading easier, while accepting that Moneybank and Minibank are now separate.
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 9,615
    boulay said:



    So we can have a successful realistic Brexit if everyone pulls their weight or you can hold out for rejoin where rejoin might be rejoining something very different to what we had.

    The leavers didn't give up after Maastricht and we're not giving up now or ever. Fuck your Brexit.
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 5,905
    edited June 24

    Leon said:

    boulay said:

    pigeon said:

    OnboardG1 said:

    nico679 said:

    I think David Lammys comments on the EU were the best way forward .

    I don’t see Labour Remainers jumping ship because the party won’t commit to rejoining or joining the SM or CU.

    Repairing relations with the EU , agri food agreements etc seem hardly controversial .

    I just don’t see any appetite amongst my many Remainer friends to go through another fight over EU membership .

    More or less, can’t be bothered with that argument right now. Align standards where it’s sensible, stop picking fights with the French and get ready to play the long game.
    Indeed. I am not a re-joiner, but I think those who are of that persuasion must reconcile themselves to the idea that it's a generational project. After all, there's no incentive for the rest of the EU to consider letting us back in until it becomes obvious that there is a large and settled majority for that proposition (no less than 2:1 in favour) in both Parliament and the electorate.

    It took four over four decades for the souverainiste faction to get what they wanted. I can't see the re-joiners being ready to make a proper push for their aim in anything less than two.
    Yes, my CLP last night had a motion calling for re-joining. Everyone in the room agreed with him on the issue, but everyone except him agreed that it would be madness to propose it in the next Parliament. We urged the party to promise sensible, friendly parternship with the EU for the next 5
    years, and worry about re-joining in a future Parliament.
    I’m sure this will be an unpopular view with those here who dream of rejoining but here I go.

    Until intelligent people who dream of rejoining stop sodding dreaming of rejoining then Brexit can never be a success.

    If everyone intelligent who wanted to rejoin said “ok it’s not where we want to be but we are here so let’s throw our energies and weight into taking it out of the hands of the idiots who are running the show then it might just end up being a good thing for the country”.

    Think of it this way, the people voted (rightly or wrongly depending on your opinion) for Brexit. If there are senior civil servants, politicians, anyone of influence and use who are constantly trying to put up barriers to Brexit then it’s never going to work well.

    For a crap analogy, imagine you work for a part of a bank, the management team and some shareholders decide to do a management buy-out of the part of the bank you work for because they think it will work better and be more profitable and nimble in the future - yes it will lose economies of scale, maybe influence, all sorts of benefits but actually they are sure that these issues are outweighed by being standalone.

    You are angry as you liked being part of Moneybank Global as you could transfer to work in any other office, you personally thought that what your division lost by Moneybank’s rules were worth it for other benefits, some tangible and others more symbolic - part of a big global bank family.

    After the MBO you sit and sulk and slow down things - you hope that the management will say, “gosh you are right, this is crap, let’s rejoin Moneybank global”.

    If you had embraced it instead you could ensure that the direction it takes works but because you are being obstructive they put John Idiot in charge of the team and the outcome is worse than if you had stepped up to the plate.

    Because remainders with brains walked away in a strop it was left to John Idiots to drive how Brexit would work hence stupid speed of prioritising trade deals to show somethings being done.

    So everyone who sits there waiting for “rejoin” is ultimately buggering up the country more than is has to be. And don’t think that if we were to discuss rejoin with the EU that we would be going back in as before - all the opt outs would go and the EU would take their pound of flesh.

    So we can have a successful realistic Brexit if everyone pulls their weight or you can hold out for rejoin where rejoin might be rejoining something very different to what we had.

    You have identified the same problem as me. Remain has not gone away and lurks just beneath the surface of British political life, especially in the Labour Party (as we see from NPXMP's comment). Rejoiners and Remainers will never be reconciled to Brexit. So they will spend a decade or two putting spanners in the works, so Britain falls over, and we have to Rejoin

    Except that they will almost certainly fail, so they will be hobbling the country for no reason



    I was Remain. I voted to stay. I think it was a disaster to leave, especially economically.

    But I am reconciled. There is no going back in my lifetime.

    Going back means joining the Euro, unless they somehow fix the rules of entry, and that would be a disaster way beyond anything Brexit is doing.

    None of two major parties will be prepared to risk present the public with the option of freedom of movement imho. So again, we can't rejoin as SM is part of rejoin.

    We need to find a way to trade and live with the EU on our doorstep. This lot around Johnson are not interested in doing that as they want to keep its failure as a wedge issue for 2024.

    The dilemma described beautifully above. "I was remain" But rejoining with the Euro would be a disaster way beyond Brexit.

    Lots of us voted Brexit in part because we believed we should not be in an organisation with a single currency but also pretending not have have nation/state like ambitions.

    EFTA/EEA is the answer for now.

  • kle4kle4 Posts: 77,249

    My take on the By Elections.

    Two centre right men have been replaced by two centre right men

    Go about your business nothing changes.

    Even if that were so the particular flavour of centre right men makes a difference, especially if it predates a change (at some point) of national leadership. Even if policies were the same, and there would be differences, character and competency would change.

    In any case 'all but my preferred option are the same' is very rarely true.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 41,291
    Leon said:

    boulay said:

    pigeon said:

    OnboardG1 said:

    nico679 said:

    I think David Lammys comments on the EU were the best way forward .

    I don’t see Labour Remainers jumping ship because the party won’t commit to rejoining or joining the SM or CU.

    Repairing relations with the EU , agri food agreements etc seem hardly controversial .

    I just don’t see any appetite amongst my many Remainer friends to go through another fight over EU membership .

    More or less, can’t be bothered with that argument right now. Align standards where it’s sensible, stop picking fights with the French and get ready to play the long game.
    Indeed. I am not a re-joiner, but I think those who are of that persuasion must reconcile themselves to the idea that it's a generational project. After all, there's no incentive for the rest of the EU to consider letting us back in until it becomes obvious that there is a large and settled majority for that proposition (no less than 2:1 in favour) in both Parliament and the electorate.

    It took four over four decades for the souverainiste faction to get what they wanted. I can't see the re-joiners being ready to make a proper push for their aim in anything less than two.
    Yes, my CLP last night had a motion calling for re-joining. Everyone in the room agreed with him on the issue, but everyone except him agreed that it would be madness to propose it in the next Parliament. We urged the party to promise sensible, friendly parternship with the EU for the next 5
    years, and worry about re-joining in a future Parliament.
    I’m sure this will be an unpopular view with those here who dream of rejoining but here I go.

    Until intelligent people who dream of rejoining stop sodding dreaming of rejoining then Brexit can never be a success.

    If everyone intelligent who wanted to rejoin said “ok it’s not where we want to be but we are here so let’s throw our energies and weight into taking it out of the hands of the idiots who are running the show then it might just end up being a good thing for the country”.

    Think of it this way, the people voted (rightly or wrongly depending on your opinion) for Brexit. If there are senior civil servants, politicians, anyone of influence and use who are constantly trying to put up barriers to Brexit then it’s never going to work well.

    For a crap analogy, imagine you work for a part of a bank, the management team and some shareholders decide to do a management buy-out of the part of the bank you work for because they think it will work better and be more profitable and nimble in the future - yes it will lose economies of scale, maybe influence, all sorts of benefits but actually they are sure that these issues are outweighed by being standalone.

    You are angry as you liked being part of Moneybank Global as you could transfer to work in any other office, you personally thought that what your division lost by Moneybank’s rules were worth it for other benefits, some tangible and others more symbolic - part of a big global bank family.

    After the MBO you sit and sulk and slow down things - you hope that the management will say, “gosh you are right, this is crap, let’s rejoin Moneybank global”.

    If you had embraced it instead you could ensure that the direction it takes works but because you are being obstructive they put John Idiot in charge of the team and the outcome is worse than if you had stepped up to the plate.

    Because remainders with brains walked away in a strop it was left to John Idiots to drive how Brexit would work hence stupid speed of prioritising trade deals to show somethings being done.

    So everyone who sits there waiting for “rejoin” is ultimately buggering up the country more than is has to be. And don’t think that if we were to discuss rejoin with the EU that we would be going back in as before - all the opt outs would go and the EU would take their pound of flesh.

    So we can have a successful realistic Brexit if everyone pulls their weight or you can hold out for rejoin where rejoin might be rejoining something very different to what we had.

    You have identified the same problem as me. Remain has not gone away and lurks just beneath the surface of British political life, especially in the Labour Party (as we see from NPXMP's comment). Rejoiners and Remainers will never be reconciled to Brexit. So they will spend a decade or two putting spanners in the works, so Britain falls over, and we have to Rejoin

    Except that they will almost certainly fail, so they will be hobbling the country for no reason

    Paranoid stuff.
    What are these 'spanners in the works' ?
  • BlancheLivermoreBlancheLivermore Posts: 3,346
    kle4 said:

    Heathener said:

    Heathener said:


    MarqueeMark very rudely dismissed my suggestions, but people are really angry. The likes of Tokyo Edmund and UAE Sandpit don't get it because they aren't here.

    The latest SavantaComRes has Labour 11% ahead and with tactical voting the Conservatives are heading for a crushing General Election defeat. Removing Johnson may help but it may already be too late.

    1992-7 Redux.


    Not very long ago the consensus of people here feeling the anger on the ground seemed to be that Boris Johnson was clearly going to get removed by his party over the thing with the parties, while more disinterested people thought it was only a medium-sized scandal
    I've never thought they would remove him.

    And your comment about the parties really really shows how out of touch you are in your far off land. People are really angry and hurt. We gave up so much during those lockdowns whilst that wicked clown was running a booze den in No.10.

    If you don't get this I'm afraid you (plural not you personally) will continue to call this wrong.
    I would just caution your criticism that as a poster is abroad their views are not relevant

    We have several posters regularly posting from abroad including @Sandpit, @Gardenwalker, @SeaShantyIrish2, @Cicero and others and they should be respected even if you do not agree with their point of view
    The idea people dont 'get it' if they live overseas is arrant nonsense.

    People might think sandpit or roger or whoever is wrong and be correct but it won't be because of distance. Sometimes distance can even help.
    It’s quite amusing that it never seems to be directed at Robert.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 22,777
    PM wants to talk about the by-election in Hartlepool.
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 19,336
    kle4 said:

    Heathener said:

    Heathener said:


    MarqueeMark very rudely dismissed my suggestions, but people are really angry. The likes of Tokyo Edmund and UAE Sandpit don't get it because they aren't here.

    The latest SavantaComRes has Labour 11% ahead and with tactical voting the Conservatives are heading for a crushing General Election defeat. Removing Johnson may help but it may already be too late.

    1992-7 Redux.


    Not very long ago the consensus of people here feeling the anger on the ground seemed to be that Boris Johnson was clearly going to get removed by his party over the thing with the parties, while more disinterested people thought it was only a medium-sized scandal
    I've never thought they would remove him.

    And your comment about the parties really really shows how out of touch you are in your far off land. People are really angry and hurt. We gave up so much during those lockdowns whilst that wicked clown was running a booze den in No.10.

    If you don't get this I'm afraid you (plural not you personally) will continue to call this wrong.
    I would just caution your criticism that as a poster is abroad their views are not relevant

    We have several posters regularly posting from abroad including @Sandpit, @Gardenwalker, @SeaShantyIrish2, @Cicero and others and they should be respected even if you do not agree with their point of view
    The idea people dont 'get it' if they live overseas is arrant nonsense.

    People might think sandpit or roger or whoever is wrong and be correct but it won't be because of distance. Sometimes distance can even help.
    Sometimes it is because of distance though. National mood matters and is not always apparent from the media
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 101,021
    EPG said:

    The merely political problem, beyond all the policy and principled problems with separating from Europe, was ramming the most hardline nationalist English Brexit down the throats of voters on a 52% mandate.

    It wasn't, 'the most hardline Nationalist English Brexit.'

    That would have been No Deal and a hard border in Ireland. Instead we have a trade deal with the EU
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 8,810

    Leon said:

    boulay said:

    pigeon said:

    OnboardG1 said:

    nico679 said:

    I think David Lammys comments on the EU were the best way forward .

    I don’t see Labour Remainers jumping ship because the party won’t commit to rejoining or joining the SM or CU.

    Repairing relations with the EU , agri food agreements etc seem hardly controversial .

    I just don’t see any appetite amongst my many Remainer friends to go through another fight over EU membership .

    More or less, can’t be bothered with that argument right now. Align standards where it’s sensible, stop picking fights with the French and get ready to play the long game.
    Indeed. I am not a re-joiner, but I think those who are of that persuasion must reconcile themselves to the idea that it's a generational project. After all, there's no incentive for the rest of the EU to consider letting us back in until it becomes obvious that there is a large and settled majority for that proposition (no less than 2:1 in favour) in both Parliament and the electorate.

    It took four over four decades for the souverainiste faction to get what they wanted. I can't see the re-joiners being ready to make a proper push for their aim in anything less than two.
    Yes, my CLP last night had a motion calling for re-joining. Everyone in the room agreed with him on the issue, but everyone except him agreed that it would be madness to propose it in the next Parliament. We urged the party to promise sensible, friendly parternship with the EU for the next 5
    years, and worry about re-joining in a future Parliament.
    I’m sure this will be an unpopular view with those here who dream of rejoining but here I go.

    Until intelligent people who dream of rejoining stop sodding dreaming of rejoining then Brexit can never be a success.

    If everyone intelligent who wanted to rejoin said “ok it’s not where we want to be but we are here so let’s throw our energies and weight into taking it out of the hands of the idiots who are running the show then it might just end up being a good thing for the country”.

    Think of it this way, the people voted (rightly or wrongly depending on your opinion) for Brexit. If there are senior civil servants, politicians, anyone of influence and use who are constantly trying to put up barriers to Brexit then it’s never going to work well.

    For a crap analogy, imagine you work for a part of a bank, the management team and some shareholders decide to do a management buy-out of the part of the bank you work for because they think it will work better and be more profitable and nimble in the future - yes it will lose economies of scale, maybe influence, all sorts of benefits but actually they are sure that these issues are outweighed by being standalone.

    You are angry as you liked being part of Moneybank Global as you could transfer to work in any other office, you personally thought that what your division lost by Moneybank’s rules were worth it for other benefits, some tangible and others more symbolic - part of a big global bank family.

    After the MBO you sit and sulk and slow down things - you hope that the management will say, “gosh you are right, this is crap, let’s rejoin Moneybank global”.

    If you had embraced it instead you could ensure that the direction it takes works but because you are being obstructive they put John Idiot in charge of the team and the outcome is worse than if you had stepped up to the plate.

    Because remainders with brains walked away in a strop it was left to John Idiots to drive how Brexit would work hence stupid speed of prioritising trade deals to show somethings being done.

    So everyone who sits there waiting for “rejoin” is ultimately buggering up the country more than is has to be. And don’t think that if we were to discuss rejoin with the EU that we would be going back in as before - all the opt outs would go and the EU would take their pound of flesh.

    So we can have a successful realistic Brexit if everyone pulls their weight or you can hold out for rejoin where rejoin might be rejoining something very different to what we had.

    You have identified the same problem as me. Remain has not gone away and lurks just beneath the surface of British political life, especially in the Labour Party (as we see from NPXMP's comment). Rejoiners and Remainers will never be reconciled to Brexit. So they will spend a decade or two putting spanners in the works, so Britain falls over, and we have to Rejoin

    Except that they will almost certainly fail, so they will be hobbling the country for no reason



    I was Remain. I voted to stay. I think it was a disaster to leave, especially economically.

    But I am reconciled. There is no going back in my lifetime.

    Going back means joining the Euro, unless they somehow fix the rules of entry, and that would be a disaster way beyond anything Brexit is doing.

    None of two major parties will be prepared to risk present the public with the option of freedom of movement imho. So again, we can't rejoin as SM is part of rejoin.

    We need to find a way to trade and live with the EU on our doorstep. This lot around Johnson are not interested in doing that as they want to keep its failure as a wedge issue for 2024.

    The political aspects of the EU never had the consent of the British Public. They were never given a say. Lisbon? No vote for you, plucky Brits. You might say no.
    So in the end Brexit happened and we have sacrificed ease of trade and the ability to work and live inside the EU so that we were out of the ever closer union.
    We are were we are. We now need to make the best of it. Sadly the current government AND the EU see advantage in not making things works as best as possible.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 24,048
    IanB2 said:

    Leon said:

    boulay said:

    pigeon said:

    OnboardG1 said:

    nico679 said:

    I think David Lammys comments on the EU were the best way forward .

    I don’t see Labour Remainers jumping ship because the party won’t commit to rejoining or joining the SM or CU.

    Repairing relations with the EU , agri food agreements etc seem hardly controversial .

    I just don’t see any appetite amongst my many Remainer friends to go through another fight over EU membership .

    More or less, can’t be bothered with that argument right now. Align standards where it’s sensible, stop picking fights with the French and get ready to play the long game.
    Indeed. I am not a re-joiner, but I think those who are of that persuasion must reconcile themselves to the idea that it's a generational project. After all, there's no incentive for the rest of the EU to consider letting us back in until it becomes obvious that there is a large and settled majority for that proposition (no less than 2:1 in favour) in both Parliament and the electorate.

    It took four over four decades for the souverainiste faction to get what they wanted. I can't see the re-joiners being ready to make a proper push for their aim in anything less than two.
    Yes, my CLP last night had a motion calling for re-joining. Everyone in the room agreed with him on the issue, but everyone except him agreed that it would be madness to propose it in the next Parliament. We urged the party to promise sensible, friendly parternship with the EU for the next 5
    years, and worry about re-joining in a future Parliament.
    I’m sure this will be an unpopular view with those here who dream of rejoining but here I go.

    Until intelligent people who dream of rejoining stop sodding dreaming of rejoining then Brexit can never be a success.

    If everyone intelligent who wanted to rejoin said “ok it’s not where we want to be but we are here so let’s throw our energies and weight into taking it out of the hands of the idiots who are running the show then it might just end up being a good thing for the country”.

    Think of it this way, the people voted (rightly or wrongly depending on your opinion) for Brexit. If there are senior civil servants, politicians, anyone of influence and use who are constantly trying to put up barriers to Brexit then it’s never going to work well.

    For a crap analogy, imagine you work for a part of a bank, the management team and some shareholders decide to do a management buy-out of the part of the bank you work for because they think it will work better and be more profitable and nimble in the future - yes it will lose economies of scale, maybe influence, all sorts of benefits but actually they are sure that these issues are outweighed by being standalone.

    You are angry as you liked being part of Moneybank Global as you could transfer to work in any other office, you personally thought that what your division lost by Moneybank’s rules were worth it for other benefits, some tangible and others more symbolic - part of a big global bank family.

    After the MBO you sit and sulk and slow down things - you hope that the management will say, “gosh you are right, this is crap, let’s rejoin Moneybank global”.

    If you had embraced it instead you could ensure that the direction it takes works but because you are being obstructive they put John Idiot in charge of the team and the outcome is worse than if you had stepped up to the plate.

    Because remainders with brains walked away in a strop it was left to John Idiots to drive how Brexit would work hence stupid speed of prioritising trade deals to show somethings being done.

    So everyone who sits there waiting for “rejoin” is ultimately buggering up the country more than is has to be. And don’t think that if we were to discuss rejoin with the EU that we would be going back in as before - all the opt outs would go and the EU would take their pound of flesh.

    So we can have a successful realistic Brexit if everyone pulls their weight or you can hold out for rejoin where rejoin might be rejoining something very different to what we had.

    You have identified the same problem as me. Remain has not gone away and lurks just beneath the surface of British political life, especially in the Labour Party (as we see from NPXMP's comment). Rejoiners and Remainers will never be reconciled to Brexit. So they will spend a decade or two putting spanners in the works, so Britain falls over, and we have to Rejoin

    Except that they will almost certainly fail, so they will be hobbling the country for no reason



    Of course that must be the case.

    For the argument that it was a foolish idea advanced by foolish people for foolish reasons is far too straightforward to be true.

    Sigh


    I am not arguing about the merits or otherwise of Brexit. I am agreeing with @boulay that there is a considerable rump of eructating Remainers who are not and will not ever be reconciled to it, and who want it undone ASAP, even if they pretend to themselves, or others, that they are accepting of the vote

    eg, You

    I suggest this is a problem for UK PLC *going forward*
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 41,024
    Carnyx said:

    https://www.devonlive.com/news/devon-news/tiverton-honiton-election-tory-candidate-7248805

    (with film)

    'Accompanied by Tory party officials, she arrived at the count before hiding away in a back room. When approached by DevonLive reporter Lewis Clarke her agent says "We are not speaking" and ushers Mr Hurford away. She simply smiles and says "Oh have they" after being told that the Liberal Democrats have just declared a spectacular win, as the votes stacked in their favour and the 24,000 Tory majority is slashed, with a 30 per cent swing to the Lib Dems.

    Ms Hurford and her supporters remained in the back room until the results were announced , with the Liberal Democrats winning 22,537 votes, and the Tories in second place on 16,393. After her ignominious defeat she hastily left the building without any public statement or comment to the press.'

    The journalist appears to have missed whatever she says at about 0:32 when she thinks she is out of earshot - before going on to challenge him when she realises he's followed her into the room. It sounds like she might have been saying "I didn't expect to lose" ??

  • eekeek Posts: 20,265

    Leon said:

    boulay said:

    pigeon said:

    OnboardG1 said:

    nico679 said:

    I think David Lammys comments on the EU were the best way forward .

    I don’t see Labour Remainers jumping ship because the party won’t commit to rejoining or joining the SM or CU.

    Repairing relations with the EU , agri food agreements etc seem hardly controversial .

    I just don’t see any appetite amongst my many Remainer friends to go through another fight over EU membership .

    More or less, can’t be bothered with that argument right now. Align standards where it’s sensible, stop picking fights with the French and get ready to play the long game.
    Indeed. I am not a re-joiner, but I think those who are of that persuasion must reconcile themselves to the idea that it's a generational project. After all, there's no incentive for the rest of the EU to consider letting us back in until it becomes obvious that there is a large and settled majority for that proposition (no less than 2:1 in favour) in both Parliament and the electorate.

    It took four over four decades for the souverainiste faction to get what they wanted. I can't see the re-joiners being ready to make a proper push for their aim in anything less than two.
    Yes, my CLP last night had a motion calling for re-joining. Everyone in the room agreed with him on the issue, but everyone except him agreed that it would be madness to propose it in the next Parliament. We urged the party to promise sensible, friendly parternship with the EU for the next 5
    years, and worry about re-joining in a future Parliament.
    I’m sure this will be an unpopular view with those here who dream of rejoining but here I go.

    Until intelligent people who dream of rejoining stop sodding dreaming of rejoining then Brexit can never be a success.

    If everyone intelligent who wanted to rejoin said “ok it’s not where we want to be but we are here so let’s throw our energies and weight into taking it out of the hands of the idiots who are running the show then it might just end up being a good thing for the country”.

    Think of it this way, the people voted (rightly or wrongly depending on your opinion) for Brexit. If there are senior civil servants, politicians, anyone of influence and use who are constantly trying to put up barriers to Brexit then it’s never going to work well.

    For a crap analogy, imagine you work for a part of a bank, the management team and some shareholders decide to do a management buy-out of the part of the bank you work for because they think it will work better and be more profitable and nimble in the future - yes it will lose economies of scale, maybe influence, all sorts of benefits but actually they are sure that these issues are outweighed by being standalone.

    You are angry as you liked being part of Moneybank Global as you could transfer to work in any other office, you personally thought that what your division lost by Moneybank’s rules were worth it for other benefits, some tangible and others more symbolic - part of a big global bank family.

    After the MBO you sit and sulk and slow down things - you hope that the management will say, “gosh you are right, this is crap, let’s rejoin Moneybank global”.

    If you had embraced it instead you could ensure that the direction it takes works but because you are being obstructive they put John Idiot in charge of the team and the outcome is worse than if you had stepped up to the plate.

    Because remainders with brains walked away in a strop it was left to John Idiots to drive how Brexit would work hence stupid speed of prioritising trade deals to show somethings being done.

    So everyone who sits there waiting for “rejoin” is ultimately buggering up the country more than is has to be. And don’t think that if we were to discuss rejoin with the EU that we would be going back in as before - all the opt outs would go and the EU would take their pound of flesh.

    So we can have a successful realistic Brexit if everyone pulls their weight or you can hold out for rejoin where rejoin might be rejoining something very different to what we had.

    You have identified the same problem as me. Remain has not gone away and lurks just beneath the surface of British political life, especially in the Labour Party (as we see from NPXMP's comment). Rejoiners and Remainers will never be reconciled to Brexit. So they will spend a decade or two putting spanners in the works, so Britain falls over, and we have to Rejoin

    Except that they will almost certainly fail, so they will be hobbling the country for no reason



    I was Remain. I voted to stay. I think it was a disaster to leave, especially economically.

    But I am reconciled. There is no going back in my lifetime.

    Going back means joining the Euro, unless they somehow fix the rules of entry, and that would be a disaster way beyond anything Brexit is doing.

    None of two major parties will be prepared to risk present the public with the option of freedom of movement imho. So again, we can't rejoin as SM is part of rejoin.

    We need to find a way to trade and live with the EU on our doorstep. This lot around Johnson are not interested in doing that as they want to keep its failure as a wedge issue for 2024.

    We reach a bilateral deal with the EEA like the Swiss have done. Pick and choose what we want and what the EEA will accept. Like the Swiss. Not EU, not EEA, not CU. "Independent" with continued alignment and mutual free access to each other's markets.
    Problem is that requires freedom of movement where we have a problem in that we can't play the you need to speak this weird language (Belgian, Danish, Norwegian, Swiss German / Swiss Italian) game that other countries can get away with.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 41,291

    Speaking in Rwanda after the by-election defeats, Boris Johnson said he would “listen” to the message from voters, but vowed to “keep going” as prime minister.

    He blamed the by-election defeats on the spiralling cost of living and said there was “more to do” to help people cope

    Is this accepting he’s doomed?

    The message from the voters, Boris, is simple: "Fuck off."
    Boris' answer - I still have much to do.

    (Damage, presumably ?)
  • SelebianSelebian Posts: 3,859

    Leon said:

    boulay said:

    pigeon said:

    OnboardG1 said:

    nico679 said:

    I think David Lammys comments on the EU were the best way forward .

    I don’t see Labour Remainers jumping ship because the party won’t commit to rejoining or joining the SM or CU.

    Repairing relations with the EU , agri food agreements etc seem hardly controversial .

    I just don’t see any appetite amongst my many Remainer friends to go through another fight over EU membership .

    More or less, can’t be bothered with that argument right now. Align standards where it’s sensible, stop picking fights with the French and get ready to play the long game.
    Indeed. I am not a re-joiner, but I think those who are of that persuasion must reconcile themselves to the idea that it's a generational project. After all, there's no incentive for the rest of the EU to consider letting us back in until it becomes obvious that there is a large and settled majority for that proposition (no less than 2:1 in favour) in both Parliament and the electorate.

    It took four over four decades for the souverainiste faction to get what they wanted. I can't see the re-joiners being ready to make a proper push for their aim in anything less than two.
    Yes, my CLP last night had a motion calling for re-joining. Everyone in the room agreed with him on the issue, but everyone except him agreed that it would be madness to propose it in the next Parliament. We urged the party to promise sensible, friendly parternship with the EU for the next 5
    years, and worry about re-joining in a future Parliament.
    I’m sure this will be an unpopular view with those here who dream of rejoining but here I go.

    Until intelligent people who dream of rejoining stop sodding dreaming of rejoining then Brexit can never be a success.

    If everyone intelligent who wanted to rejoin said “ok it’s not where we want to be but we are here so let’s throw our energies and weight into taking it out of the hands of the idiots who are running the show then it might just end up being a good thing for the country”.

    Think of it this way, the people voted (rightly or wrongly depending on your opinion) for Brexit. If there are senior civil servants, politicians, anyone of influence and use who are constantly trying to put up barriers to Brexit then it’s never going to work well.

    For a crap analogy, imagine you work for a part of a bank, the management team and some shareholders decide to do a management buy-out of the part of the bank you work for because they think it will work better and be more profitable and nimble in the future - yes it will lose economies of scale, maybe influence, all sorts of benefits but actually they are sure that these issues are outweighed by being standalone.

    You are angry as you liked being part of Moneybank Global as you could transfer to work in any other office, you personally thought that what your division lost by Moneybank’s rules were worth it for other benefits, some tangible and others more symbolic - part of a big global bank family.

    After the MBO you sit and sulk and slow down things - you hope that the management will say, “gosh you are right, this is crap, let’s rejoin Moneybank global”.

    If you had embraced it instead you could ensure that the direction it takes works but because you are being obstructive they put John Idiot in charge of the team and the outcome is worse than if you had stepped up to the plate.

    Because remainders with brains walked away in a strop it was left to John Idiots to drive how Brexit would work hence stupid speed of prioritising trade deals to show somethings being done.

    So everyone who sits there waiting for “rejoin” is ultimately buggering up the country more than is has to be. And don’t think that if we were to discuss rejoin with the EU that we would be going back in as before - all the opt outs would go and the EU would take their pound of flesh.

    So we can have a successful realistic Brexit if everyone pulls their weight or you can hold out for rejoin where rejoin might be rejoining something very different to what we had.

    You have identified the same problem as me. Remain has not gone away and lurks just beneath the surface of British political life, especially in the Labour Party (as we see from NPXMP's comment). Rejoiners and Remainers will never be reconciled to Brexit. So they will spend a decade or two putting spanners in the works, so Britain falls over, and we have to Rejoin

    Except that they will almost certainly fail, so they will be hobbling the country for no reason



    I was Remain. I voted to stay. I think it was a disaster to leave, especially economically.

    But I am reconciled. There is no going back in my lifetime.

    Going back means joining the Euro, unless they somehow fix the rules of entry, and that would be a disaster way beyond anything Brexit is doing.

    None of two major parties will be prepared to risk present the public with the option of freedom of movement imho. So again, we can't rejoin as SM is part of rejoin.

    We need to find a way to trade and live with the EU on our doorstep. This lot around Johnson are not interested in doing that as they want to keep its failure as a wedge issue for 2024.

    We reach a bilateral deal with the EEA like the Swiss have done. Pick and choose what we want and what the EEA will accept. Like the Swiss. Not EU, not EEA, not CU. "Independent" with continued alignment and mutual free access to each other's markets.
    Reasonable. But please can we not do the Swiss way of a referendum on every issue? I've had enough of EU-related votes :wink:
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 77,249
    edited June 24

    My take on the By Elections.

    Two centre right men have been replaced by two centre right men

    Go about your business nothing changes.

    Quite right too. Where were the parties representing the working man in Wakefield? Where was Scargill when you needed him?
    Saw on on ITV West yesterday. Didnt pick up what was being said between my relatives talling about smashing Boris in the face with a lump hammer to sort out his cocaine nose and how much they were fans of Jar Jar Binks (true anecdote btw) but Im always surprised how he must have been fairly youthful in the 80s given he's still going.
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 19,775

    OllyT said:

    Has anyone seen FUDHY yet?

    Is he advancing tanks on Edinburgh or cowering in the bunker?


    Might be doing him a disservice but I suspect he's waiting for HQ to email the faithful telling them how to spin the results. He could be in for a long wait
    For all that I have had my run-ins with HYUFD in the past, he's only human, and I'm sure he's disappointed at the results and that his personal efforts to help retain T&H were not successful.
    But its his fault. HIS defeat. We hear him on here. A deaf, arrogant, sneering buffoon. His entire party sounds the same, and people are sick of them. Imagine getting a call from HY or one like him - sky is green, Boris is moral, the economy is brilliant, there are no issues.

    That the Tories got another reaming is directly HY's fault. Personally. He is a cheerleader for the lunatic personality cult which has taken over what used to be the Conservative and Unionist Party.
    I remember how disappointed I was six years ago. We went away for a long weekend in Northumberland to hide from the 2019GE result.

    It's not in my nature to kick a person when they're down.

    People say that someone like me, on the autistic spectrum, can't feel empathy for others. That's to misunderstand autism. I just have no idea how to express it in person.
    I feel empathy for HY! And when he repents I will rejoice! But you have to take responsibility for your actions in life, and he is creating the problem he speaks of. Until he accepts that I will call it out.

    It's ok to repent and say you were wrong. I have, both to my friends and on here. Several times. I voted for Corbyn as leader. Stupid. I voted for Brexit. Idiotic. I was looking for solutions and found the wrong answers. Mea Culpa, Mea Maxima Culpa. I hope one day HY will also repent.
  • FishingFishing Posts: 3,569
    edited June 24

    ❗ NEW TRACKER:

    🔴 Labour lead by 6
    🟡 Highest Lib Dem share in six months
    🔵 Two-thirds not confident in government

    Lab 38% (-1)
    Con 32% (-1)
    Lib Dem 14% (+1)
    Green 6% (+1)
    SNP 4% (nc)

    1,630 questioned Wed & Thu. Changes with 15 - 16 June.

    Details - technetracker.co.uk

    Hang on though, according to last night's Devon result, the LibDems should be on 50%, with a 38% swing since the last election.

    Either that, or mid-term by-elections are utterly meaningless as a guide to the national picture, let alone the next GE result? I know political obsessives have nothing else to talk about in this country until about three months before the next GE, unlike America were there is always an election due, and this is after all a betting site, but the idea that these by-elections say anything meaningful about 2024 is for the birds.
  • RogerRoger Posts: 16,896
    Scott_xP said:

    Nigel Fucking Farage says the Tories are doomed with BoZo in charge

    Who better to identify a politician on the skids
  • londonpubmanlondonpubman Posts: 1,724
    Not very good results for CON!

    Time for Boris to go, time for a new leader to clear out the cabinet and time for sensible fiscally prudent policies to sort out CPI.

    Have a good weekend all 💚
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 19,008

    My take on the By Elections.

    Two centre right men have been replaced by two centre right men

    Go about your business nothing changes.

    Quite right too. Where were the parties representing the working man in Wakefield? Where was Scargill when you needed him?
    Wakefield CLP would have chosen one. The center right NEC overseen by the Centre right leader imposed a shortlist consisting of a centre right man and a right wing woman.

    Despite the Socialist SKS during his leadership promising to allow local members chose rather than a centre right NEC and a miraculously cured now centre right leader imposing aforesaid centre right only shortlist
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 33,482

    Foxy said:

    IanB2 said:

    Leon said:

    Foxy said:

    murali_s said:

    Heathener said:

    murali_s said:

    nico679 said:

    I think David Lammys comments on the EU were the best way forward .

    I don’t see Labour Remainers jumping ship because the party won’t commit to rejoining or joining the SM or CU.

    Repairing relations with the EU , agri food agreements etc seem hardly controversial .

    I just don’t see any appetite amongst my many Remainer friends to go through another fight over EU membership .

    Any party not prepared to back rejoining / EEA is not on my list come the next election
    You will only have the SNP or Plaid
    You have a window into the future do you?

    I certainly will not be supporting your Tories. I have both a conscience and a spine.
    I am not a member of the conservative party and only yesterday Starmer ruled out joining the single market
    Which was as stupid thing to do. Really stupid...

    Labour needs a new leader with vision and policies and above all courage.
    If Labour want to win back the red wall then he must NOT speak about rejoining anything in the EU.
    Why?

    It's in the best interest of this country and I really believe it will be popular so a good move both for country and politically for Labour.

    Opinion polls have confirmed that there is a growing trend who think Brexit was wrong. The demographics will only reinforce that going forward.
    Yes, but now is not yet the time. The softly softly rapprochement with the EU is what is needed now. Rejoiners like me are quite comfortable with that, with the longer term objective of Rejoin coming when the fruit is ripe.
    But the trajectory is for the UK to spin further away from the EU, and get entirely used to governing itself, so that the idea of rejoining will become impossible. Note how there is absolutely no way Norway, Switzerland or Iceland will join the EU, any time soon, polling in all countries is vehemently against (despite, say, the Oslo government being quite keen, at times)

    Also the EU will further federalise, interim, making our membership even more unpalatable, over time

    So something big is needed to change this narrative, to knock the stylus out of the groove, and it needs to happen soon before it is too late. That's why Rejoiners will mount a big push if "they" win in 2024, to get us back in the SM (or something like it). It might be their only chance

    But they won't tell the voters this, before the election
    Insofar as there is an argument in there, it collapses at the point when you remember that Norway and Switzerland are effectively inside the Single Market.
    The other flaw is that if the tide changes, and we are reconverging, albeit on relatively small pragmatic issues, then the gap to Rejoining SM or EU proper is getting smaller with time, not greater.
    Your argument fails, at least as far as EU membership is concerned, because it assumes the EU is a static thing with which we converge. In the fact the EU is itself changing, moving away from us and becoming less and less appealing to people in the process.
    Yes, but we will align with the new rules for pragmatic trading purposes, so we will be getting closer even if they are moving away. All the polling evidence is that sentiment is moving towards the EU rather than away from it.

    I don't expect Rejoin to be on the table in the rest of this decade, but it will be a serious issue in the 2030's. I am happy to bide my time while the fruit ripens.
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 19,775
    glw said:

    We reach a bilateral deal with the EEA like the Swiss have done. Pick and choose what we want and what the EEA will accept. Like the Swiss. Not EU, not EEA, not CU. "Independent" with continued alignment and mutual free access to each other's markets.

    Great, how do I vote for these people?

    Currently my choice is:
    1. Brexit is already perfect.
    2. Don't talk about Brexit. (Rejoin by stealth).
    3. Rejoin.

    Who is 3? Not the LibDems. We favour getting back into the EEA, not rejoining the EU.
  • ClippPClippP Posts: 1,168

    kle4 said:

    Heathener said:

    Heathener said:


    MarqueeMark very rudely dismissed my suggestions, but people are really angry. The likes of Tokyo Edmund and UAE Sandpit don't get it because they aren't here.

    The latest SavantaComRes has Labour 11% ahead and with tactical voting the Conservatives are heading for a crushing General Election defeat. Removing Johnson may help but it may already be too late.

    1992-7 Redux.

    Not very long ago the consensus of people here feeling the anger on the ground seemed to be that Boris Johnson was clearly going to get removed by his party over the thing with the parties, while more disinterested people thought it was only a medium-sized scandal
    I've never thought they would remove him.

    And your comment about the parties really really shows how out of touch you are in your far off land. People are really angry and hurt. We gave up so much during those lockdowns whilst that wicked clown was running a booze den in No.10.

    If you don't get this I'm afraid you (plural not you personally) will continue to call this wrong.
    I would just caution your criticism that as a poster is abroad their views are not relevant

    We have several posters regularly posting from abroad including @Sandpit, @Gardenwalker, @SeaShantyIrish2, @Cicero and others and they should be respected even if you do not agree with their point of view
    The idea people dont 'get it' if they live overseas is arrant nonsense.

    People might think sandpit or roger or whoever is wrong and be correct but it won't be because of distance. Sometimes distance can even help.
    It’s quite amusing that it never seems to be directed at Robert.
    Never????
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 23,663
    Apparently BoZo phoned 3 people this morning

    Dowden
    Sunak
    Chief whip

    1 is obvious. 2 is "Please don't quit". 3 is "How many more...?"
  • My take on the By Elections.

    Two centre right men have been replaced by two centre right men

    Go about your business nothing changes.

    Ignoring the fact that there are fairly clear differences between parties on a range of issues at the moment, perhaps the message is indeed that people want a change of management rather than a revolution. An injection of competence and intergrity rather than a complete reversal of the past 12 years.

    That may disappoint you personally, but it is consequential that people want a rather different sort of change than you do.
  • OllyTOllyT Posts: 4,549
    Leon said:

    boulay said:

    pigeon said:

    OnboardG1 said:

    nico679 said:

    I think David Lammys comments on the EU were the best way forward .

    I don’t see Labour Remainers jumping ship because the party won’t commit to rejoining or joining the SM or CU.

    Repairing relations with the EU , agri food agreements etc seem hardly controversial .

    I just don’t see any appetite amongst my many Remainer friends to go through another fight over EU membership .

    More or less, can’t be bothered with that argument right now. Align standards where it’s sensible, stop picking fights with the French and get ready to play the long game.
    Indeed. I am not a re-joiner, but I think those who are of that persuasion must reconcile themselves to the idea that it's a generational project. After all, there's no incentive for the rest of the EU to consider letting us back in until it becomes obvious that there is a large and settled majority for that proposition (no less than 2:1 in favour) in both Parliament and the electorate.

    It took four over four decades for the souverainiste faction to get what they wanted. I can't see the re-joiners being ready to make a proper push for their aim in anything less than two.
    Yes, my CLP last night had a motion calling for re-joining. Everyone in the room agreed with him on the issue, but everyone except him agreed that it would be madness to propose it in the next Parliament. We urged the party to promise sensible, friendly parternship with the EU for the next 5
    years, and worry about re-joining in a future Parliament.
    I’m sure this will be an unpopular view with those here who dream of rejoining but here I go.

    Until intelligent people who dream of rejoining stop sodding dreaming of rejoining then Brexit can never be a success.

    If everyone intelligent who wanted to rejoin said “ok it’s not where we want to be but we are here so let’s throw our energies and weight into taking it out of the hands of the idiots who are running the show then it might just end up being a good thing for the country”.

    Think of it this way, the people voted (rightly or wrongly depending on your opinion) for Brexit. If there are senior civil servants, politicians, anyone of influence and use who are constantly trying to put up barriers to Brexit then it’s never going to work well.

    For a crap analogy, imagine you work for a part of a bank, the management team and some shareholders decide to do a management buy-out of the part of the bank you work for because they think it will work better and be more profitable and nimble in the future - yes it will lose economies of scale, maybe influence, all sorts of benefits but actually they are sure that these issues are outweighed by being standalone.

    You are angry as you liked being part of Moneybank Global as you could transfer to work in any other office, you personally thought that what your division lost by Moneybank’s rules were worth it for other benefits, some tangible and others more symbolic - part of a big global bank family.

    After the MBO you sit and sulk and slow down things - you hope that the management will say, “gosh you are right, this is crap, let’s rejoin Moneybank global”.

    If you had embraced it instead you could ensure that the direction it takes works but because you are being obstructive they put John Idiot in charge of the team and the outcome is worse than if you had stepped up to the plate.

    Because remainders with brains walked away in a strop it was left to John Idiots to drive how Brexit would work hence stupid speed of prioritising trade deals to show somethings being done.

    So everyone who sits there waiting for “rejoin” is ultimately buggering up the country more than is has to be. And don’t think that if we were to discuss rejoin with the EU that we would be going back in as before - all the opt outs would go and the EU would take their pound of flesh.

    So we can have a successful realistic Brexit if everyone pulls their weight or you can hold out for rejoin where rejoin might be rejoining something very different to what we had.

    You have identified the same problem as me. Remain has not gone away and lurks just beneath the surface of British political life, especially in the Labour Party (as we see from NPXMP's comment). Rejoiners and Remainers will never be reconciled to Brexit. So they will spend a decade or two putting spanners in the works, so Britain falls over, and we have to Rejoin

    Except that they will almost certainly fail, so they will be hobbling the country for no reason



    Surely the onus is on the winners, those who campaigned for it, to make Brexit a success. That is the way these things usually work. You can't expect those that believed (and still believe) that Brexit was a big mistake to pull your chestnuts out of the fire.

    So if I interpret you and @Boulay correctly, if Brexit turns out to be an economic failure its going to be because the people who believed it was going to be a failure didn't work hard enough to make a success!

  • SelebianSelebian Posts: 3,859
    Nigelb said:

    Speaking in Rwanda after the by-election defeats, Boris Johnson said he would “listen” to the message from voters, but vowed to “keep going” as prime minister.

    He blamed the by-election defeats on the spiralling cost of living and said there was “more to do” to help people cope

    Is this accepting he’s doomed?

    The message from the voters, Boris, is simple: "Fuck off."
    Boris' answer - I still have much to do.

    (Damage, presumably ?)
    Worth checking the Downing Street staff for any women with surname 'Much'?
  • EPGEPG Posts: 4,493

    My take on the By Elections.

    Two centre right men have been replaced by two centre right men

    Go about your business nothing changes.

    Quite right too. Where were the parties representing the working man in Wakefield? Where was Scargill when you needed him?
    Wakefield CLP would have chosen one. The center right NEC overseen by the Centre right leader imposed a shortlist consisting of a centre right man and a right wing woman.

    Despite the Socialist SKS during his leadership promising to allow local members chose rather than a centre right NEC and a miraculously cured now centre right leader imposing aforesaid centre right only shortlist
    Need Corbyn back to deliver such first-time MPs as Imran Ahmed Khan.
  • pm215pm215 Posts: 346
    boulay said:


    For a crap analogy, imagine you work for a part of a bank, the management team and some shareholders decide to do a management buy-out of the part of the bank you work for because they think it will work better and be more profitable and nimble in the future - yes it will lose economies of scale, maybe influence, all sorts of benefits but actually they are sure that these issues are outweighed by being standalone.

    After the MBO you sit and sulk and slow down things - you hope that the management will say, “gosh you are right, this is crap, let’s rejoin Moneybank global”.

    In this analogy, I think I (like most people but by no means all) am not a bank employee but a customer or perhaps a very minor one-share shareholder, though. I don't influence what policies the bank chooses; I don't play a role in carrying them out. I just have to deal with the way the post-buyout bank has slightly fewer services and higher charges (but still does the basic job of being a bank fine). The most I can do is at the AGM cast my vote as a shareholder (which counts for almost nothing). So it really doesn't matter if I spend my time on banking forums fulminating about how crap the management are and posting for the umpteenth time that they should rejoin the megabank, or if I just put the issue in the enormous bucket of "things I don't control" and talk about something else.

    Some people really are in a position equivalent to "bank employee" in your analogy (including some on this thread; anybody attending a constituency political party meeting would count I guess). But I suspect that the overlap between "actually with some influence rather than merely observing" and "fulminating that we should rejoin rather than taking the reasonable position of making the best of what we have" is pretty small -- having actual responsibility for doing stuff tends to make you look at reality more...
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 59,133
    Mr. Rentool, I'm glad you're not all out of faith.
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 19,336
    Fishing said:

    ❗ NEW TRACKER:

    🔴 Labour lead by 6
    🟡 Highest Lib Dem share in six months
    🔵 Two-thirds not confident in government

    Lab 38% (-1)
    Con 32% (-1)
    Lib Dem 14% (+1)
    Green 6% (+1)
    SNP 4% (nc)

    1,630 questioned Wed & Thu. Changes with 15 - 16 June.

    Details - technetracker.co.uk

    Hang on though, according to last night's Devon result, the LibDems should be on 50%, with a 38% swing since the last election.

    Either that, or mid-term by-elections are utterly meaningless as a guide to the national picture, let alone the next GE result? I know political obsessives have nothing else to talk about in this country until about three months before the next GE, unlike America were there is always an election due, and this is after all a betting site, but the idea that these by-elections say anything meaningful about 2024 is for the birds.
    Or national pictures don't always map to constituency results (local or g e)

    I am a pretty good proxy for homo former tory honitonensis and I can tell you for certain it is no slam dunk to revert to tory next GE
  • Nigel_ForemainNigel_Foremain Posts: 11,499
    Leon said:

    IanB2 said:

    Leon said:

    boulay said:

    pigeon said:

    OnboardG1 said:

    nico679 said:

    I think David Lammys comments on the EU were the best way forward .

    I don’t see Labour Remainers jumping ship because the party won’t commit to rejoining or joining the SM or CU.

    Repairing relations with the EU , agri food agreements etc seem hardly controversial .

    I just don’t see any appetite amongst my many Remainer friends to go through another fight over EU membership .

    More or less, can’t be bothered with that argument right now. Align standards where it’s sensible, stop picking fights with the French and get ready to play the long game.
    Indeed. I am not a re-joiner, but I think those who are of that persuasion must reconcile themselves to the idea that it's a generational project. After all, there's no incentive for the rest of the EU to consider letting us back in until it becomes obvious that there is a large and settled majority for that proposition (no less than 2:1 in favour) in both Parliament and the electorate.

    It took four over four decades for the souverainiste faction to get what they wanted. I can't see the re-joiners being ready to make a proper push for their aim in anything less than two.
    Yes, my CLP last night had a motion calling for re-joining. Everyone in the room agreed with him on the issue, but everyone except him agreed that it would be madness to propose it in the next Parliament. We urged the party to promise sensible, friendly parternship with the EU for the next 5
    years, and worry about re-joining in a future Parliament.
    I’m sure this will be an unpopular view with those here who dream of rejoining but here I go.

    Until intelligent people who dream of rejoining stop sodding dreaming of rejoining then Brexit can never be a success.

    If everyone intelligent who wanted to rejoin said “ok it’s not where we want to be but we are here so let’s throw our energies and weight into taking it out of the hands of the idiots who are running the show then it might just end up being a good thing for the country”.

    Think of it this way, the people voted (rightly or wrongly depending on your opinion) for Brexit. If there are senior civil servants, politicians, anyone of influence and use who are constantly trying to put up barriers to Brexit then it’s never going to work well.

    For a crap analogy, imagine you work for a part of a bank, the management team and some shareholders decide to do a management buy-out of the part of the bank you work for because they think it will work better and be more profitable and nimble in the future - yes it will lose economies of scale, maybe influence, all sorts of benefits but actually they are sure that these issues are outweighed by being standalone.

    You are angry as you liked being part of Moneybank Global as you could transfer to work in any other office, you personally thought that what your division lost by Moneybank’s rules were worth it for other benefits, some tangible and others more symbolic - part of a big global bank family.

    After the MBO you sit and sulk and slow down things - you hope that the management will say, “gosh you are right, this is crap, let’s rejoin Moneybank global”.

    If you had embraced it instead you could ensure that the direction it takes works but because you are being obstructive they put John Idiot in charge of the team and the outcome is worse than if you had stepped up to the plate.

    Because remainders with brains walked away in a strop it was left to John Idiots to drive how Brexit would work hence stupid speed of prioritising trade deals to show somethings being done.

    So everyone who sits there waiting for “rejoin” is ultimately buggering up the country more than is has to be. And don’t think that if we were to discuss rejoin with the EU that we would be going back in as before - all the opt outs would go and the EU would take their pound of flesh.

    So we can have a successful realistic Brexit if everyone pulls their weight or you can hold out for rejoin where rejoin might be rejoining something very different to what we had.

    You have identified the same problem as me. Remain has not gone away and lurks just beneath the surface of British political life, especially in the Labour Party (as we see from NPXMP's comment). Rejoiners and Remainers will never be reconciled to Brexit. So they will spend a decade or two putting spanners in the works, so Britain falls over, and we have to Rejoin

    Except that they will almost certainly fail, so they will be hobbling the country for no reason



    Of course that must be the case.

    For the argument that it was a foolish idea advanced by foolish people for foolish reasons is far too straightforward to be true.

    Sigh


    I am not arguing about the merits or otherwise of Brexit. I am agreeing with @boulay that there is a considerable rump of eructating Remainers who are not and will not ever be reconciled to it, and who want it undone ASAP, even if they pretend to themselves, or others, that they are accepting of the vote

    eg, You

    I suggest this is a problem for UK PLC *going forward*
    It is difficult to be "reconciled" with something that was pointless and clear self-harm that was presented to the British people as a one way street with no option to reconsider, and was almost certainly helped in the propaganda war by a hostile power.

    Nonetheless many of us accept we have to live with it however pointless and braindead it was as a decision.

    There would be more likelihood in moving on from the divisiveness if folk like you stopped paradoxically moaning about "remoaners" and actually took some responsibility for the fact that via the stupidity of Brexit you have given us the worst PM in UK history, and for those of us that used to be Tories, you have wrecked the reputation of the Conservative Party, and probably will put it out of office for a generation.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 21,870
    Fishing said:

    ❗ NEW TRACKER:

    🔴 Labour lead by 6
    🟡 Highest Lib Dem share in six months
    🔵 Two-thirds not confident in government

    Lab 38% (-1)
    Con 32% (-1)
    Lib Dem 14% (+1)
    Green 6% (+1)
    SNP 4% (nc)

    1,630 questioned Wed & Thu. Changes with 15 - 16 June.

    Details - technetracker.co.uk

    Hang on though, according to last night's Devon result, the LibDems should be on 50%, with a 38% swing since the last election.

    Either that, or mid-term by-elections are utterly meaningless as a guide to the national picture, let alone the next GE result? I know political obsessives have nothing else to talk about in this country until about three months before the next GE, unlike America were there is always an election due, and this is after all a betting site, but the idea that these by-elections say anything meaningful about 2024 is for the birds.
    "...the LibDems should be on 50%, with a 38% swing since the last election. Either that, or mid-term by-elections are utterly meaningless as a guide to the national picture..."

    Spectacular binarism there!
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 52,664
    edited June 24
    dixiedean said:

    PM wants to talk about the by-election in Hartlepool.

    I didn't know there was one due.

    Does Johnson know something we don't?
  • Daveyboy1961Daveyboy1961 Posts: 2,654
    kle4 said:

    ❗ NEW TRACKER:

    🔴 Labour lead by 6
    🟡 Highest Lib Dem share in six months
    🔵 Two-thirds not confident in government

    Lab 38% (-1)
    Con 32% (-1)
    Lib Dem 14% (+1)
    Green 6% (+1)
    SNP 4% (nc)

    1,630 questioned Wed & Thu. Changes with 15 - 16 June.

    Details - technetracker.co.uk

    Feels like anything between 8-16 or so doesn't make a massive difference to the LDs unless they can target the amount really well, as in Scotland to a degree. Only once they get higher than that do they have broad enough support to bring many other seats into play.

    Thats not detailed analysis just gut feeling.
    I agree there, but the higher background score will hide more peaks in certain areas which lead to the high chance seats. Many seats in parts of the country have the Libdems barely making 5%, so there would be much higher percentage seats around.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 77,249
    edited June 24
    Fishing said:

    ❗ NEW TRACKER:

    🔴 Labour lead by 6
    🟡 Highest Lib Dem share in six months
    🔵 Two-thirds not confident in government

    Lab 38% (-1)
    Con 32% (-1)
    Lib Dem 14% (+1)
    Green 6% (+1)
    SNP 4% (nc)

    1,630 questioned Wed & Thu. Changes with 15 - 16 June.

    Details - technetracker.co.uk

    Hang on though, according to last night's Devon result, the LibDems should be on 50%, with a 38% swing since the last election.

    Either that, or mid-term by-elections are utterly meaningless as a guide to the national picture, let alone the next GE result? I know political obsessives have nothing else to talk about in this country until about three months before the next GE, unlike America were there is always an election due, and this is after all a betting site, but the idea that these by-elections say anything meaningful about 2024 is for the birds.
    I dont think that's quite right. Obviously by elections are not meaningful in the sense their result will be replicated, we know governments historically generally lose their defences.

    But the scale of loss and the context in which it took place, both in polling or direction of travel, means the results of by elections are not therefore entirely meaningless either. If the Tories had won one or both that would not have been meaningless.

    The Tories still have a decent shot, it's a big majority to defend and national polling is not horrendous for this point. But losses clump up, and big ones are notable, especially if an extended period of hard times might set a long term narrative for the government.

    They need to work hard and do more than throw red meat to their base to be confident of retaining power. For now they rightly will be less confident.
  • EPGEPG Posts: 4,493
    Fishing said:

    ❗ NEW TRACKER:

    🔴 Labour lead by 6
    🟡 Highest Lib Dem share in six months
    🔵 Two-thirds not confident in government

    Lab 38% (-1)
    Con 32% (-1)
    Lib Dem 14% (+1)
    Green 6% (+1)
    SNP 4% (nc)

    1,630 questioned Wed & Thu. Changes with 15 - 16 June.

    Details - technetracker.co.uk

    Hang on though, according to last night's Devon result, the LibDems should be on 50%, with a 38% swing since the last election.

    Either that, or mid-term by-elections are utterly meaningless as a guide to the national picture, let alone the next GE result? I know political obsessives have nothing else to talk about in this country until about three months before the next GE, unlike America were there is always an election due, and this is after all a betting site, but the idea that these by-elections say anything meaningful about 2024 is for the birds.
    Most people who say this wouldn't say it if Conservatives won by six points. The others should note the tactical efficiency of the anti-Tory vote, plus the willingness of Brexit voters to at least consider the opposition.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 23,663
    "The government is heading for defeat at the next general election and their best chance of rectifying that is by removing the prime minister," says Former Tory Cabinet Minister @DavidGauke.

    #KayBurley: http://trib.al/dwvcRFT

    📺 Sky 501, Virgin 602, Freeview 233 and YouTube https://twitter.com/SkyNews/status/1540248309796855808/video/1
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 9,012
    edited June 24
    glw said:

    algarkirk said:

    The architect of this fiasco is 40 years of successive governments failing to get the permission of the people for what amounted to a series of constitutional changes, in the belief that the slowly boiled frog would not notice. This democratic deficit was and is compounded by the structural democratic deficit within the EU itself.

    Correct. It's also clear from comments on here this morning that many Labour supporters would still like to hoodwink the public, and get tight with the EU again via the backdoor and without popular consent. It's like they have learnt nothing. Maybe the Tories will win the next election despite Boris?
    I spent most of Easter arguing with my step-mother that Labour needed to concentrate on more consequential issues, rather than matters of identity like EU membership. Lots of Remain supporters regret leaving the EU, but prioritise getting the Tories out, and sorting some of the big problems the country has, rather than wasting another decade arguing about the EU.

    If Labour has any sense they will stay away from the EU and concentrate on the economy, education, health, etc. Let the Tories remain mired in the Brexit arguments of the past, the Opposition needs to focus on the future.
  • HeathenerHeathener Posts: 3,371
    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    boulay said:

    pigeon said:

    OnboardG1 said:

    nico679 said:

    I think David Lammys comments on the EU were the best way forward .

    I don’t see Labour Remainers jumping ship because the party won’t commit to rejoining or joining the SM or CU.

    Repairing relations with the EU , agri food agreements etc seem hardly controversial .

    I just don’t see any appetite amongst my many Remainer friends to go through another fight over EU membership .

    More or less, can’t be bothered with that argument right now. Align standards where it’s sensible, stop picking fights with the French and get ready to play the long game.
    Indeed. I am not a re-joiner, but I think those who are of that persuasion must reconcile themselves to the idea that it's a generational project. After all, there's no incentive for the rest of the EU to consider letting us back in until it becomes obvious that there is a large and settled majority for that proposition (no less than 2:1 in favour) in both Parliament and the electorate.

    It took four over four decades for the souverainiste faction to get what they wanted. I can't see the re-joiners being ready to make a proper push for their aim in anything less than two.
    Yes, my CLP last night had a motion calling for re-joining. Everyone in the room agreed with him on the issue, but everyone except him agreed that it would be madness to propose it in the next Parliament. We urged the party to promise sensible, friendly parternship with the EU for the next 5
    years, and worry about re-joining in a future Parliament.
    I’m sure this will be an unpopular view with those here who dream of rejoining but here I go.

    Until intelligent people who dream of rejoining stop sodding dreaming of rejoining then Brexit can never be a success.

    If everyone intelligent who wanted to rejoin said “ok it’s not where we want to be but we are here so let’s throw our energies and weight into taking it out of the hands of the idiots who are running the show then it might just end up being a good thing for the country”.

    Think of it this way, the people voted (rightly or wrongly depending on your opinion) for Brexit. If there are senior civil servants, politicians, anyone of influence and use who are constantly trying to put up barriers to Brexit then it’s never going to work well.

    For a crap analogy, imagine you work for a part of a bank, the management team and some shareholders decide to do a management buy-out of the part of the bank you work for because they think it will work better and be more profitable and nimble in the future - yes it will lose economies of scale, maybe influence, all sorts of benefits but actually they are sure that these issues are outweighed by being standalone.

    You are angry as you liked being part of Moneybank Global as you could transfer to work in any other office, you personally thought that what your division lost by Moneybank’s rules were worth it for other benefits, some tangible and others more symbolic - part of a big global bank family.

    After the MBO you sit and sulk and slow down things - you hope that the management will say, “gosh you are right, this is crap, let’s rejoin Moneybank global”.

    If you had embraced it instead you could ensure that the direction it takes works but because you are being obstructive they put John Idiot in charge of the team and the outcome is worse than if you had stepped up to the plate.

    Because remainders with brains walked away in a strop it was left to John Idiots to drive how Brexit would work hence stupid speed of prioritising trade deals to show somethings being done.

    So everyone who sits there waiting for “rejoin” is ultimately buggering up the country more than is has to be. And don’t think that if we were to discuss rejoin with the EU that we would be going back in as before - all the opt outs would go and the EU would take their pound of flesh.

    So we can have a successful realistic Brexit if everyone pulls their weight or you can hold out for rejoin where rejoin might be rejoining something very different to what we had.

    You have identified the same problem as me. Remain has not gone away and lurks just beneath the surface of British political life, especially in the Labour Party (as we see from NPXMP's comment). Rejoiners and Remainers will never be reconciled to Brexit. So they will spend a decade or two putting spanners in the works, so Britain falls over, and we have to Rejoin

    Except that they will almost certainly fail, so they will be hobbling the country for no reason
    The economic data is clear and unambiguous - Boris's Brexit deal has "hobbled the country" as you put it. That is not to say that no form of Brexit could work economically - far from it. Only that *this* form of Brexit has been economically damaging.

    Your problem is that you are obsessively fighting the last battle. As are the minority of hardcore rejoiners AND hardcore no-dealers. All need to be set aside, we are where we are. Even if a UK government in a few years wanted back into the UK there is no way they would let us.

    So just like the fantasies of no deal and Singapore-on-Thames "lets leave the WTO" Brexit, the rejoiners are in fantasy land and can be left to it.

    So what we have to do is fix Brexit. Because it has and will continue to cause economic damage and make our businesses and exporters less competitive. That is strategically damaging in the long term as well as the short term hit.
    Well then you need to talk to "all the members of NPXMP's constituency Labour Party" who apparently want to Rejoin, and who are quietly working towards that

    This is my point. I entirely accept that you and others are *reconciled* to Brexit, but many people are not, especially politically active people in the Labour Party and the Lib Dems. They want to Rejoin, passionately, and they have not given up - not at all

    Until THEY are reconciled, this problem will bedevil us. I cannot see an easy solution, because this is a question of faith
    You're obsessed and obsessive about this. It's become a paranoia - seriously.

    If and when SKS or another current opposition leader becomes PM I really don't think they will be rushing to join any part of the EU. And if they do, it will be with the people's consent. So quite why you are getting yourself in such a paddy over that scenario, I really don't know.

    Actually, I suspect I do know and I suspect you do too. You know Brexit isn't going well (understatement of the year) and you're not prepared to admit it to yourself?

    I've seen this kind of obsessiveness in all walks of life. I've been like it myself: perhaps most recently with covid. It can be a terrifying thing when it takes over and it's really hard to see what's happening to yourself. It probably took a few people on here to give me a 'wtf' response for me to realise that I was losing all sense of proportion over the virus. You, if I may say, are like that at the moment with Brexit-Remain-Rejoin.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 55,591
    As we begin a much more interesting weekend than I had expected, two “what if” thoughts:
    • imagine if the rebels had waited until next Monday to hold a confidence vote
    • imagine that Durham constabulary decided to fine Starmer today…
    Looking forward to cabinet Twitter today


    https://twitter.com/shippersunbound/status/1540240883068637185
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 23,663
    Not convinced by the notion that massive by election defeats have been (or could be) "priced in". If a majority of 24,239 is no longer considered safe, you could see 580 seats change hands at the next election

    Yes, that is clearly bonkers; so is the idea that MPs aren't going to be a bit edgy about living in a world where 30% swings are "priced in"

    https://twitter.com/BBCPhilipSim/status/1540248131312418817
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 19,775

    My take on the By Elections.

    Two centre right men have been replaced by two centre right men

    Go about your business nothing changes.

    Quite right too. Where were the parties representing the working man in Wakefield? Where was Scargill when you needed him?
    Wakefield CLP would have chosen one. The center right NEC overseen by the Centre right leader imposed a shortlist consisting of a centre right man and a right wing woman.

    Despite the Socialist SKS during his leadership promising to allow local members chose rather than a centre right NEC and a miraculously cured now centre right leader imposing aforesaid centre right only shortlist
    The Regional Director can remove people from any list for any reason as you and I both know. What made me laugh was the attack on he chosen candidate as being "parachuted in" from elsewhere. But he was Mary Creagh's spad.

    Here is reality. Had the CLP been allowed to select your flavour of trot loon they could have lost the byelection. That is reality, hence the need for the party to intervene.

    Always makes me laugh though the sheer hypocrisy of people on *both* wings of the party who support intervention wrt candidates when they support the intervention, then scream blue murder when its one they don't support.
  • HeathenerHeathener Posts: 3,371
    edited June 24
    Re. next Conservative leader, Penny Mordaunt is the only one I fear. So I'm with @MarqueeMark on this.

    None of the others worry me.

    But Penny could give SKS a serious run for his money and I would no longer be as confident about the tories losing power.

    p.s. of course, there might be someone else in the wings. Or another in the current cabinet who really rises to the occasion. That happened in a way with David Cameron who was Shadow Sec of Education and gave a 'wow' speech at the conference where he walked around the stage.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 24,048
    OllyT said:

    Leon said:

    boulay said:

    pigeon said:

    OnboardG1 said:

    nico679 said:

    I think David Lammys comments on the EU were the best way forward .

    I don’t see Labour Remainers jumping ship because the party won’t commit to rejoining or joining the SM or CU.

    Repairing relations with the EU , agri food agreements etc seem hardly controversial .

    I just don’t see any appetite amongst my many Remainer friends to go through another fight over EU membership .

    More or less, can’t be bothered with that argument right now. Align standards where it’s sensible, stop picking fights with the French and get ready to play the long game.
    Indeed. I am not a re-joiner, but I think those who are of that persuasion must reconcile themselves to the idea that it's a generational project. After all, there's no incentive for the rest of the EU to consider letting us back in until it becomes obvious that there is a large and settled majority for that proposition (no less than 2:1 in favour) in both Parliament and the electorate.

    It took four over four decades for the souverainiste faction to get what they wanted. I can't see the re-joiners being ready to make a proper push for their aim in anything less than two.
    Yes, my CLP last night had a motion calling for re-joining. Everyone in the room agreed with him on the issue, but everyone except him agreed that it would be madness to propose it in the next Parliament. We urged the party to promise sensible, friendly parternship with the EU for the next 5
    years, and worry about re-joining in a future Parliament.
    I’m sure this will be an unpopular view with those here who dream of rejoining but here I go.

    Until intelligent people who dream of rejoining stop sodding dreaming of rejoining then Brexit can never be a success.

    If everyone intelligent who wanted to rejoin said “ok it’s not where we want to be but we are here so let’s throw our energies and weight into taking it out of the hands of the idiots who are running the show then it might just end up being a good thing for the country”.

    Think of it this way, the people voted (rightly or wrongly depending on your opinion) for Brexit. If there are senior civil servants, politicians, anyone of influence and use who are constantly trying to put up barriers to Brexit then it’s never going to work well.

    For a crap analogy, imagine you work for a part of a bank, the management team and some shareholders decide to do a management buy-out of the part of the bank you work for because they think it will work better and be more profitable and nimble in the future - yes it will lose economies of scale, maybe influence, all sorts of benefits but actually they are sure that these issues are outweighed by being standalone.

    You are angry as you liked being part of Moneybank Global as you could transfer to work in any other office, you personally thought that what your division lost by Moneybank’s rules were worth it for other benefits, some tangible and others more symbolic - part of a big global bank family.

    After the MBO you sit and sulk and slow down things - you hope that the management will say, “gosh you are right, this is crap, let’s rejoin Moneybank global”.

    If you had embraced it instead you could ensure that the direction it takes works but because you are being obstructive they put John Idiot in charge of the team and the outcome is worse than if you had stepped up to the plate.

    Because remainders with brains walked away in a strop it was left to John Idiots to drive how Brexit would work hence stupid speed of prioritising trade deals to show somethings being done.

    So everyone who sits there waiting for “rejoin” is ultimately buggering up the country more than is has to be. And don’t think that if we were to discuss rejoin with the EU that we would be going back in as before - all the opt outs would go and the EU would take their pound of flesh.

    So we can have a successful realistic Brexit if everyone pulls their weight or you can hold out for rejoin where rejoin might be rejoining something very different to what we had.

    You have identified the same problem as me. Remain has not gone away and lurks just beneath the surface of British political life, especially in the Labour Party (as we see from NPXMP's comment). Rejoiners and Remainers will never be reconciled to Brexit. So they will spend a decade or two putting spanners in the works, so Britain falls over, and we have to Rejoin

    Except that they will almost certainly fail, so they will be hobbling the country for no reason



    Surely the onus is on the winners, those who campaigned for it, to make Brexit a success. That is the way these things usually work. You can't expect those that believed (and still believe) that Brexit was a big mistake to pull your chestnuts out of the fire.

    So if I interpret you and @Boulay correctly, if Brexit turns out to be an economic failure its going to be because the people who believed it was going to be a failure didn't work hard enough to make a success!

    You see? This is why Brexit is more like a religious question than a political/economic question

    You're like a weirdly-alive Thomas More in about 1548 saying "So if the Reformation is a failure you want us ex-cardinals to come back and fix it for you? How about No? It was always bound to be a failure, it is evil, and wrong"

    We are mid-Reformation. The Catholics are not reconciled. We need a Queen Elizabeth to ascend the throne, burn a few recusants - pour encourager les autres - and then tell the rest of England to move on, without making windows into men's souls
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 8,810
    Heathener said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    boulay said:

    pigeon said:

    OnboardG1 said:

    nico679 said:

    I think David Lammys comments on the EU were the best way forward .

    I don’t see Labour Remainers jumping ship because the party won’t commit to rejoining or joining the SM or CU.

    Repairing relations with the EU , agri food agreements etc seem hardly controversial .

    I just don’t see any appetite amongst my many Remainer friends to go through another fight over EU membership .

    More or less, can’t be bothered with that argument right now. Align standards where it’s sensible, stop picking fights with the French and get ready to play the long game.
    Indeed. I am not a re-joiner, but I think those who are of that persuasion must reconcile themselves to the idea that it's a generational project. After all, there's no incentive for the rest of the EU to consider letting us back in until it becomes obvious that there is a large and settled majority for that proposition (no less than 2:1 in favour) in both Parliament and the electorate.

    It took four over four decades for the souverainiste faction to get what they wanted. I can't see the re-joiners being ready to make a proper push for their aim in anything less than two.
    Yes, my CLP last night had a motion calling for re-joining. Everyone in the room agreed with him on the issue, but everyone except him agreed that it would be madness to propose it in the next Parliament. We urged the party to promise sensible, friendly parternship with the EU for the next 5
    years, and worry about re-joining in a future Parliament.
    I’m sure this will be an unpopular view with those here who dream of rejoining but here I go.

    Until intelligent people who dream of rejoining stop sodding dreaming of rejoining then Brexit can never be a success.

    If everyone intelligent who wanted to rejoin said “ok it’s not where we want to be but we are here so let’s throw our energies and weight into taking it out of the hands of the idiots who are running the show then it might just end up being a good thing for the country”.

    Think of it this way, the people voted (rightly or wrongly depending on your opinion) for Brexit. If there are senior civil servants, politicians, anyone of influence and use who are constantly trying to put up barriers to Brexit then it’s never going to work well.

    For a crap analogy, imagine you work for a part of a bank, the management team and some shareholders decide to do a management buy-out of the part of the bank you work for because they think it will work better and be more profitable and nimble in the future - yes it will lose economies of scale, maybe influence, all sorts of benefits but actually they are sure that these issues are outweighed by being standalone.

    You are angry as you liked being part of Moneybank Global as you could transfer to work in any other office, you personally thought that what your division lost by Moneybank’s rules were worth it for other benefits, some tangible and others more symbolic - part of a big global bank family.

    After the MBO you sit and sulk and slow down things - you hope that the management will say, “gosh you are right, this is crap, let’s rejoin Moneybank global”.

    If you had embraced it instead you could ensure that the direction it takes works but because you are being obstructive they put John Idiot in charge of the team and the outcome is worse than if you had stepped up to the plate.

    Because remainders with brains walked away in a strop it was left to John Idiots to drive how Brexit would work hence stupid speed of prioritising trade deals to show somethings being done.

    So everyone who sits there waiting for “rejoin” is ultimately buggering up the country more than is has to be. And don’t think that if we were to discuss rejoin with the EU that we would be going back in as before - all the opt outs would go and the EU would take their pound of flesh.

    So we can have a successful realistic Brexit if everyone pulls their weight or you can hold out for rejoin where rejoin might be rejoining something very different to what we had.

    You have identified the same problem as me. Remain has not gone away and lurks just beneath the surface of British political life, especially in the Labour Party (as we see from NPXMP's comment). Rejoiners and Remainers will never be reconciled to Brexit. So they will spend a decade or two putting spanners in the works, so Britain falls over, and we have to Rejoin

    Except that they will almost certainly fail, so they will be hobbling the country for no reason
    The economic data is clear and unambiguous - Boris's Brexit deal has "hobbled the country" as you put it. That is not to say that no form of Brexit could work economically - far from it. Only that *this* form of Brexit has been economically damaging.

    Your problem is that you are obsessively fighting the last battle. As are the minority of hardcore rejoiners AND hardcore no-dealers. All need to be set aside, we are where we are. Even if a UK government in a few years wanted back into the UK there is no way they would let us.

    So just like the fantasies of no deal and Singapore-on-Thames "lets leave the WTO" Brexit, the rejoiners are in fantasy land and can be left to it.

    So what we have to do is fix Brexit. Because it has and will continue to cause economic damage and make our businesses and exporters less competitive. That is strategically damaging in the long term as well as the short term hit.
    Well then you need to talk to "all the members of NPXMP's constituency Labour Party" who apparently want to Rejoin, and who are quietly working towards that

    This is my point. I entirely accept that you and others are *reconciled* to Brexit, but many people are not, especially politically active people in the Labour Party and the Lib Dems. They want to Rejoin, passionately, and they have not given up - not at all

    Until THEY are reconciled, this problem will bedevil us. I cannot see an easy solution, because this is a question of faith
    You're obsessed and obsessive about this. It's become a paranoia - seriously.

    If and when SKS or another current opposition leader becomes PM I really don't think they will be rushing to join any part of the EU. And if they do, it will be with the people's consent. So quite why you are getting yourself in such a paddy over that scenario, I really don't know.

    Actually, I suspect I do know and I suspect you do too. You know Brexit isn't going well (understatement of the year) and you're not prepared to admit it to yourself?

    I've seen this kind of obsessiveness in all walks of life. I've been like it myself: perhaps most recently with covid. It can be a terrifying thing when it takes over and it's really hard to see what's happening to yourself. It probably took a few people on here to give me a 'wtf' response for me to realise that I was losing all sense of proportion over the virus. You, if I may say, are like that at the moment with Brexit-Remain-Rejoin.
    That’s interesting. Are you now in a better place wrt Covid? You certainly weren’t when you joined last year.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 33,482
    dixiedean said:

    PM wants to talk about the by-election in Hartlepool.

    It might be interesting to re-run it now. It could well be a very different result indeed.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 35,376
    edited June 24
    Heathener said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    boulay said:

    pigeon said:

    OnboardG1 said:

    nico679 said:

    I think David Lammys comments on the EU were the best way forward .

    I don’t see Labour Remainers jumping ship because the party won’t commit to rejoining or joining the SM or CU.

    Repairing relations with the EU , agri food agreements etc seem hardly controversial .

    I just don’t see any appetite amongst my many Remainer friends to go through another fight over EU membership .

    More or less, can’t be bothered with that argument right now. Align standards where it’s sensible, stop picking fights with the French and get ready to play the long game.
    Indeed. I am not a re-joiner, but I think those who are of that persuasion must reconcile themselves to the idea that it's a generational project. After all, there's no incentive for the rest of the EU to consider letting us back in until it becomes obvious that there is a large and settled majority for that proposition (no less than 2:1 in favour) in both Parliament and the electorate.

    It took four over four decades for the souverainiste faction to get what they wanted. I can't see the re-joiners being ready to make a proper push for their aim in anything less than two.
    Yes, my CLP last night had a motion calling for re-joining. Everyone in the room agreed with him on the issue, but everyone except him agreed that it would be madness to propose it in the next Parliament. We urged the party to promise sensible, friendly parternship with the EU for the next 5
    years, and worry about re-joining in a future Parliament.
    I’m sure this will be an unpopular view with those here who dream of rejoining but here I go.

    Until intelligent people who dream of rejoining stop sodding dreaming of rejoining then Brexit can never be a success.

    If everyone intelligent who wanted to rejoin said “ok it’s not where we want to be but we are here so let’s throw our energies and weight into taking it out of the hands of the idiots who are running the show then it might just end up being a good thing for the country”.

    Think of it this way, the people voted (rightly or wrongly depending on your opinion) for Brexit. If there are senior civil servants, politicians, anyone of influence and use who are constantly trying to put up barriers to Brexit then it’s never going to work well.

    For a crap analogy, imagine you work for a part of a bank, the management team and some shareholders decide to do a management buy-out of the part of the bank you work for because they think it will work better and be more profitable and nimble in the future - yes it will lose economies of scale, maybe influence, all sorts of benefits but actually they are sure that these issues are outweighed by being standalone.

    You are angry as you liked being part of Moneybank Global as you could transfer to work in any other office, you personally thought that what your division lost by Moneybank’s rules were worth it for other benefits, some tangible and others more symbolic - part of a big global bank family.

    After the MBO you sit and sulk and slow down things - you hope that the management will say, “gosh you are right, this is crap, let’s rejoin Moneybank global”.

    If you had embraced it instead you could ensure that the direction it takes works but because you are being obstructive they put John Idiot in charge of the team and the outcome is worse than if you had stepped up to the plate.

    Because remainders with brains walked away in a strop it was left to John Idiots to drive how Brexit would work hence stupid speed of prioritising trade deals to show somethings being done.

    So everyone who sits there waiting for “rejoin” is ultimately buggering up the country more than is has to be. And don’t think that if we were to discuss rejoin with the EU that we would be going back in as before - all the opt outs would go and the EU would take their pound of flesh.

    So we can have a successful realistic Brexit if everyone pulls their weight or you can hold out for rejoin where rejoin might be rejoining something very different to what we had.

    You have identified the same problem as me. Remain has not gone away and lurks just beneath the surface of British political life, especially in the Labour Party (as we see from NPXMP's comment). Rejoiners and Remainers will never be reconciled to Brexit. So they will spend a decade or two putting spanners in the works, so Britain falls over, and we have to Rejoin

    Except that they will almost certainly fail, so they will be hobbling the country for no reason
    The economic data is clear and unambiguous - Boris's Brexit deal has "hobbled the country" as you put it. That is not to say that no form of Brexit could work economically - far from it. Only that *this* form of Brexit has been economically damaging.

    Your problem is that you are obsessively fighting the last battle. As are the minority of hardcore rejoiners AND hardcore no-dealers. All need to be set aside, we are where we are. Even if a UK government in a few years wanted back into the UK there is no way they would let us.

    So just like the fantasies of no deal and Singapore-on-Thames "lets leave the WTO" Brexit, the rejoiners are in fantasy land and can be left to it.

    So what we have to do is fix Brexit. Because it has and will continue to cause economic damage and make our businesses and exporters less competitive. That is strategically damaging in the long term as well as the short term hit.
    Well then you need to talk to "all the members of NPXMP's constituency Labour Party" who apparently want to Rejoin, and who are quietly working towards that

    This is my point. I entirely accept that you and others are *reconciled* to Brexit, but many people are not, especially politically active people in the Labour Party and the Lib Dems. They want to Rejoin, passionately, and they have not given up - not at all

    Until THEY are reconciled, this problem will bedevil us. I cannot see an easy solution, because this is a question of faith
    You're obsessed and obsessive about this. It's become a paranoia - seriously.

    If and when SKS or another current opposition leader becomes PM I really don't think they will be rushing to join any part of the EU. And if they do, it will be with the people's consent. So quite why you are getting yourself in such a paddy over that scenario, I really don't know.

    Actually, I suspect I do know and I suspect you do too. You know Brexit isn't going well (understatement of the year) and you're not prepared to admit it to yourself?

    I've seen this kind of obsessiveness in all walks of life. I've been like it myself: perhaps most recently with covid. It can be a terrifying thing when it takes over and it's really hard to see what's happening to yourself. It probably took a few people on here to give me a 'wtf' response for me to realise that I was losing all sense of proportion over the virus. You, if I may say, are like that at the moment with Brexit-Remain-Rejoin.
    On the money.
  • The voters have sent Johnson a clear and robust two word message.

    Let's hope he listens to both words rather than, as so often in his life, to just the first.
  • boulayboulay Posts: 1,462
    Dura_Ace said:

    boulay said:



    So we can have a successful realistic Brexit if everyone pulls their weight or you can hold out for rejoin where rejoin might be rejoining something very different to what we had.

    The leavers didn't give up after Maastricht and we're not giving up now or ever. Fuck your Brexit.
    Not “my” Brexit - I had no right to vote either way despite the fact that the result had and has fundamental effects on my life and the place I live.

    I am simply saying that Brexit was left in the hands of ideologues and idiots whilst Remainers were sulking and trying to hobble things and hoping that if they did that then magically everyone would forget they voted and the decision could be reversed by a second vote or BINO.

    The blame for the crap mess of where we are is firmly in the hands of Boris and the Brexiters who hold the levers of power however I believe that if Remainers and Rejoiners had not sulked off then maybe they would have been able to negotiate a better middle ground rather than the polarised situation we have and removed the need for stupid decisions made by Brexiters in power that were made purely to show “Brexit benefits” as quickly as possible instead of doing it better.

    If Remainers had been able to be part of the process then the pressure for “quick wins” (which aren’t wins) might have been reduced and an approach of “this will take time” would be in the UK’s interests.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 23,663
    Another problem for diehard "Brexit, right or obviously wrong" supporters like @Leon is Ukraine applying for membership.

    If it's so good for them, why not us?
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 21,870
    Leon said:

    IanB2 said:

    Leon said:

    boulay said:

    pigeon said:

    OnboardG1 said:

    nico679 said:

    I think David Lammys comments on the EU were the best way forward .

    I don’t see Labour Remainers jumping ship because the party won’t commit to rejoining or joining the SM or CU.

    Repairing relations with the EU , agri food agreements etc seem hardly controversial .

    I just don’t see any appetite amongst my many Remainer friends to go through another fight over EU membership .

    More or less, can’t be bothered with that argument right now. Align standards where it’s sensible, stop picking fights with the French and get ready to play the long game.
    Indeed. I am not a re-joiner, but I think those who are of that persuasion must reconcile themselves to the idea that it's a generational project. After all, there's no incentive for the rest of the EU to consider letting us back in until it becomes obvious that there is a large and settled majority for that proposition (no less than 2:1 in favour) in both Parliament and the electorate.

    It took four over four decades for the souverainiste faction to get what they wanted. I can't see the re-joiners being ready to make a proper push for their aim in anything less than two.
    Yes, my CLP last night had a motion calling for re-joining. Everyone in the room agreed with him on the issue, but everyone except him agreed that it would be madness to propose it in the next Parliament. We urged the party to promise sensible, friendly parternship with the EU for the next 5
    years, and worry about re-joining in a future Parliament.
    I’m sure this will be an unpopular view with those here who dream of rejoining but here I go.

    Until intelligent people who dream of rejoining stop sodding dreaming of rejoining then Brexit can never be a success.

    If everyone intelligent who wanted to rejoin said “ok it’s not where we want to be but we are here so let’s throw our energies and weight into taking it out of the hands of the idiots who are running the show then it might just end up being a good thing for the country”.

    Think of it this way, the people voted (rightly or wrongly depending on your opinion) for Brexit. If there are senior civil servants, politicians, anyone of influence and use who are constantly trying to put up barriers to Brexit then it’s never going to work well.

    For a crap analogy, imagine you work for a part of a bank, the management team and some shareholders decide to do a management buy-out of the part of the bank you work for because they think it will work better and be more profitable and nimble in the future - yes it will lose economies of scale, maybe influence, all sorts of benefits but actually they are sure that these issues are outweighed by being standalone.

    You are angry as you liked being part of Moneybank Global as you could transfer to work in any other office, you personally thought that what your division lost by Moneybank’s rules were worth it for other benefits, some tangible and others more symbolic - part of a big global bank family.

    After the MBO you sit and sulk and slow down things - you hope that the management will say, “gosh you are right, this is crap, let’s rejoin Moneybank global”.

    If you had embraced it instead you could ensure that the direction it takes works but because you are being obstructive they put John Idiot in charge of the team and the outcome is worse than if you had stepped up to the plate.

    Because remainders with brains walked away in a strop it was left to John Idiots to drive how Brexit would work hence stupid speed of prioritising trade deals to show somethings being done.

    So everyone who sits there waiting for “rejoin” is ultimately buggering up the country more than is has to be. And don’t think that if we were to discuss rejoin with the EU that we would be going back in as before - all the opt outs would go and the EU would take their pound of flesh.

    So we can have a successful realistic Brexit if everyone pulls their weight or you can hold out for rejoin where rejoin might be rejoining something very different to what we had.

    You have identified the same problem as me. Remain has not gone away and lurks just beneath the surface of British political life, especially in the Labour Party (as we see from NPXMP's comment). Rejoiners and Remainers will never be reconciled to Brexit. So they will spend a decade or two putting spanners in the works, so Britain falls over, and we have to Rejoin

    Except that they will almost certainly fail, so they will be hobbling the country for no reason



    Of course that must be the case.

    For the argument that it was a foolish idea advanced by foolish people for foolish reasons is far too straightforward to be true.

    Sigh


    I am not arguing about the merits or otherwise of Brexit. I am agreeing with @boulay that there is a considerable rump of eructating Remainers who are not and will not ever be reconciled to it, and who want it undone ASAP, even if they pretend to themselves, or others, that they are accepting of the vote

    eg, You

    I suggest this is a problem for UK PLC *going forward*
    I don't entirely disagree with you but two things:

    1. The UK's membership of the EEC/EU suffered from the Eurosceptic brigade throughout, in particular a section of very influential printed press. So it should hardly be a surprise that the reverse would be true once we left.

    2. It does feel like the myth of "Brexit failed due to 5th columnist Remainer sabotage" is being built to explain the inherent shortcomings of Brexit.
  • glwglw Posts: 8,406

    glw said:

    We reach a bilateral deal with the EEA like the Swiss have done. Pick and choose what we want and what the EEA will accept. Like the Swiss. Not EU, not EEA, not CU. "Independent" with continued alignment and mutual free access to each other's markets.

    Great, how do I vote for these people?

    Currently my choice is:
    1. Brexit is already perfect.
    2. Don't talk about Brexit. (Rejoin by stealth).
    3. Rejoin.

    Who is 3? Not the LibDems. We favour getting back into the EEA, not rejoining the EU.
    That is the initial steps, but isn't the intent still to rejoin the EU?
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 41,291

    kle4 said:

    Heathener said:

    Heathener said:


    MarqueeMark very rudely dismissed my suggestions, but people are really angry. The likes of Tokyo Edmund and UAE Sandpit don't get it because they aren't here.

    The latest SavantaComRes has Labour 11% ahead and with tactical voting the Conservatives are heading for a crushing General Election defeat. Removing Johnson may help but it may already be too late.

    1992-7 Redux.


    Not very long ago the consensus of people here feeling the anger on the ground seemed to be that Boris Johnson was clearly going to get removed by his party over the thing with the parties, while more disinterested people thought it was only a medium-sized scandal
    I've never thought they would remove him.

    And your comment about the parties really really shows how out of touch you are in your far off land. People are really angry and hurt. We gave up so much during those lockdowns whilst that wicked clown was running a booze den in No.10.

    If you don't get this I'm afraid you (plural not you personally) will continue to call this wrong.
    I would just caution your criticism that as a poster is abroad their views are not relevant

    We have several posters regularly posting from abroad including @Sandpit, @Gardenwalker, @SeaShantyIrish2, @Cicero and others and they should be respected even if you do not agree with their point of view
    The idea people dont 'get it' if they live overseas is arrant nonsense.

    People might think sandpit or roger or whoever is wrong and be correct but it won't be because of distance. Sometimes distance can even help.
    It’s quite amusing that it never seems to be directed at Robert.
    Would we ever know ?
    He does after all have access to an edit facility... :smile:
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 77,249
    edited June 24
    HYUFD said:

    EPG said:

    The merely political problem, beyond all the policy and principled problems with separating from Europe, was ramming the most hardline nationalist English Brexit down the throats of voters on a 52% mandate.

    It wasn't, 'the most hardline Nationalist English Brexit.'

    That would have been No Deal and a hard border in Ireland. Instead we have a trade deal with the EU
    This is actually a fair point. A lot of people thought Boris really wanted no deal but he didn't and shot their fox when he came back with one.

    Now, even he now seems to repudiate some of that deal, and it's being used for politicking now, but the fact remains those who said he wanted no deal, the hardest of Brexits, were demonstrably wrong. It really undercut opposition attacks about the risks of voting for him.
This discussion has been closed.