A lot of people here appear to be presuming that strike action is loathed by the electorate. I am not convinced. Have we seen any recent polling on the strike? In past cases, public opinion has often been quite supportive of strike actions.
I think this one is very unpopular because of how much Tube drivers get paid.
Of course my solution to that is to pay nurses and doctors more but then I believe in aspiration where the Tories prefer to pull people down
Tube drivers aren't the ones striking though.
They aren't but that's what people see in terms of transport workers going on strike
That’s what people in London see in terms of transport workers going on strike.
I hear it from plenty of people outside London too.
To me Tube drivers just show how good effective trade unions are however inconvenient the strikes are.
Who really should go on strike is bus drivers who get paid sod all.
A lot of people here appear to be presuming that strike action is loathed by the electorate. I am not convinced. Have we seen any recent polling on the strike? In past cases, public opinion has often been quite supportive of strike actions.
I saw one from i think YouGov. Against but not by an overwhelming margin
I quite enjoy all the name calling, but it does seem to deter fantastic posters.
@OnlyLivingBoy seems to have left the site, for example, because he was called a wanker. He’s one of my favourite posters, and tbh I might stop reading this site if it’s confirmed that he’s gone.
I quite enjoy all the name calling, but it does seem to deter fantastic posters.
@OnlyLivingBoy seems to have left the site, for example, because he was called a wanker. He’s one of my favourite posters, and tbh I might stop reading this site if it’s confirmed that he’s gone.
I really hope that is not true but language does matter
I quite enjoy all the name calling, but it does seem to deter fantastic posters.
@OnlyLivingBoy seems to have left the site, for example, because he was called a wanker. He’s one of my favourite posters, and tbh I might stop reading this site if it’s confirmed that he’s gone.
I really hope that is not true but language does matter
ROFL, this is what you literally engaged in doing yesterday when you tried to bully HYUFD off this site.
I quite enjoy all the name calling, but it does seem to deter fantastic posters.
@OnlyLivingBoy seems to have left the site, for example, because he was called a wanker. He’s one of my favourite posters, and tbh I might stop reading this site if it’s confirmed that he’s gone.
Has he ? I thought he was on here just the other day.
A lot of people here appear to be presuming that strike action is loathed by the electorate. I am not convinced. Have we seen any recent polling on the strike? In past cases, public opinion has often been quite supportive of strike actions.
I saw one from i think YouGov. Against but not by an overwhelming margin
Yeah. Although where there is strong opinion its two to one strongly against. Its not a popular strike, we can say that much and opposing will not as it stands be a further vote haemmorhage for the govt
I quite enjoy all the name calling, but it does seem to deter fantastic posters.
@OnlyLivingBoy seems to have left the site, for example, because he was called a wanker. He’s one of my favourite posters, and tbh I might stop reading this site if it’s confirmed that he’s gone.
I hope he hasn’t left. Lots of abuse gets chucked around by some posters. I think it helps them, but it can be nasty to receive. @OnlyLivingBoy seems like a nice person, as do most on here.
I quite enjoy all the name calling, but it does seem to deter fantastic posters.
@OnlyLivingBoy seems to have left the site, for example, because he was called a wanker. He’s one of my favourite posters, and tbh I might stop reading this site if it’s confirmed that he’s gone.
I really hope that is not true but language does matter
ROFL, this is what you literally engaged in doing yesterday when you tried to bully HYUFD off this site.
You are going from bad to worse and really need to take your personal vendetta elsewhere
And by the way, I have never sworn or used bad language in any discussion on this forum
Nor have I ever said how pleased I would be if a poster left the site
Rwanda appears to be a PR exercise. I see in the Mail that the government plans to “advertise” the policy to deter would-be migrants.
Advertise where? The Refugee Gazette? The Wretched-of-the-Earth Advertiser?
The refugees aren't the target audience. The adverts are to gull the gammons into thinking something is being done about the transmanche informal immigrants.
@HYUFD I am sure you know that I was joking when I said you were being paid to post on here but if that wasn't clear then I do apologise. As you know I think you are one of the kindest and best posters here.
And I really don’t think that the Labour Party is that clever, anyway.
I quite enjoy all the name calling, but it does seem to deter fantastic posters.
@OnlyLivingBoy seems to have left the site, for example, because he was called a wanker. He’s one of my favourite posters, and tbh I might stop reading this site if it’s confirmed that he’s gone.
I really hope that is not true but language does matter
ROFL, this is what you literally engaged in doing yesterday when you tried to bully HYUFD off this site.
You are going from bad to worse and really need to take your personal vendetta elsewhere
Why don't you apologise to HYUFD for the behaviour you engaged in and cheered on.
I know you're angry because I called you out and that is clear.
@HYUFD I am sure you know that I was joking when I said you were being paid to post on here but if that wasn't clear then I do apologise. As you know I think you are one of the kindest and best posters here.
And I really don’t think that the Labour Party is that clever, anyway.
I think Starmer is clearly very intelligent as is Reeves but I don't think the quality of MPs in general for them is very high. But I blame that on New Labour in a way who failed to put anyone good in the pipeline in the 13 years of Government.
Rwanda appears to be a PR exercise. I see in the Mail that the government plans to “advertise” the policy to deter would-be migrants.
Advertise where? The Refugee Gazette? The Wretched-of-the-Earth Advertiser?
The refugees aren't the target audience. The adverts are to gull the gammons into thinking something is being done about the transmanche informal immigrants.
Yes, that I was the point I was trying to make, obviously badly.
It’s an extremely expensive PR exercise for the benefit of the Daily Mail.
At least if HYUFD is driven off the site he is the user most likely to be replaceable by an AI bot.
We could create an AI bot for another user which could just post "I'm wavering and I can't vote Tory anymore" and "the Tories are great" every week. It would do much of their job for them
Rwanda appears to be a PR exercise. I see in the Mail that the government plans to “advertise” the policy to deter would-be migrants.
Advertise where? The Refugee Gazette? The Wretched-of-the-Earth Advertiser?
The refugees aren't the target audience. The adverts are to gull the gammons into thinking something is being done about the transmanche informal immigrants.
Yes, that I was the point I was trying to make, obviously badly.
It’s an extremely expensive PR exercise for the benefit of the Daily Mail.
We say this at our peril, this will be shoring up votes.
Rwanda appears to be a PR exercise. I see in the Mail that the government plans to “advertise” the policy to deter would-be migrants.
Advertise where? The Refugee Gazette? The Wretched-of-the-Earth Advertiser?
I thought we’d all agreed about that a while back? It’s trying to discourage them from crossing at all.
When the policy was first announced, a number here were soon proclaiming that it was already having a deterrent effect as there hadn’t been a boat for a week. Now we’ve had a bit more time, we can see the number of boat crossings this year is, so far, massively up on previous years: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/explainers-53734793
I quite enjoy all the name calling, but it does seem to deter fantastic posters.
@OnlyLivingBoy seems to have left the site, for example, because he was called a wanker. He’s one of my favourite posters, and tbh I might stop reading this site if it’s confirmed that he’s gone.
I really hope that is not true but language does matter
ROFL, this is what you literally engaged in doing yesterday when you tried to bully HYUFD off this site.
You are going from bad to worse and really need to take your personal vendetta elsewhere
And by the way, I have never sworn or used bad language in any discussion on this forum
Nor have I ever said how pleased I would be if a poster left the site
You're a really bad liar.
You literally liked and then re-posted a post yesterday which told HYUFD to fuck off from this site.
I am getting increasingly bored of talking to you, so goodbye.
I quite enjoy all the name calling, but it does seem to deter fantastic posters.
@OnlyLivingBoy seems to have left the site, for example, because he was called a wanker. He’s one of my favourite posters, and tbh I might stop reading this site if it’s confirmed that he’s gone.
I really hope that is not true but language does matter
ROFL, this is what you literally engaged in doing yesterday when you tried to bully HYUFD off this site.
You are going from bad to worse and really need to take your personal vendetta elsewhere
Why don't you apologise to HYUFD for the behaviour you engaged in and cheered on.
I know you're angry because I called you out and that is clear.
Big G gets a lot of stick, often deserved, but I don’t have him down as a liar.
I quite enjoy all the name calling, but it does seem to deter fantastic posters.
@OnlyLivingBoy seems to have left the site, for example, because he was called a wanker. He’s one of my favourite posters, and tbh I might stop reading this site if it’s confirmed that he’s gone.
I really hope that is not true but language does matter
ROFL, this is what you literally engaged in doing yesterday when you tried to bully HYUFD off this site.
You are going from bad to worse and really need to take your personal vendetta elsewhere
Why don't you apologise to HYUFD for the behaviour you engaged in and cheered on.
I know you're angry because I called you out and that is clear.
Big G gets a lot of stick, often deserved, but I don’t have him down as a liar.
Well I do. Why don't you call him out for his abusive behaviour against HYUFD and Heathener
Helpfully 1c gives you the option to state 'items should not be sold in imperial measures'.
Have filled in the consultation. Pointing out that its not 1953 so why would we want to ignore the metric global standard and impose huge costs on ourselves? Again?
I see the waverers are back on team Tory again. They were wavering for a whole week this time
I would just comment that the 148 and those of us who support them are not 'waverers' but conservatives who want Boris ousted, but support the conservative party against a labour government
There is a difference
Remember when you said your vote was up for grabs and you could vote Labour.
Another lie.
It was nor a lie at the time, but circumstances have changed and the 148 conservatives have my full support and while I did vote for Blair twice, Starmer and labour are not Blair or his labour no matter how much they playact
You’re a big fat liar
Horse, that is beyond unnecessarily unpleasant. Please delete.
Abuse is always unnecessary
Except against people you don’t agree with politically when you engage and cheer people on doing it.
I quite enjoy all the name calling, but it does seem to deter fantastic posters.
@OnlyLivingBoy seems to have left the site, for example, because he was called a wanker. He’s one of my favourite posters, and tbh I might stop reading this site if it’s confirmed that he’s gone.
I really hope that is not true but language does matter
ROFL, this is what you literally engaged in doing yesterday when you tried to bully HYUFD off this site.
You are going from bad to worse and really need to take your personal vendetta elsewhere
Why don't you apologise to HYUFD for the behaviour you engaged in and cheered on.
I know you're angry because I called you out and that is clear.
As far as @HYUFD is concerned he is virtually unique in some of his Little Englander and far right views and I will call it out, as indeed do many others across this forum, though he gives as good as he takes
I am not angry, just sad that you feel you need to use foul and abusive language in a vain attempt to make a point
Can we discuss Lisa Nandy who apparently would be a political genius.
She came out and supported the strikes. I’m not sure that was a great move.
To get back onto political discussion, I agree this is an important question. All the pieces are in flux as regards the parties' approach to strikes, and I don't think the Tories are sure where to stand either. Two weeks ago they were throwing up an awful lot of hot air about supporting the sacked P&O workers, because they're aware of the precedent they set by promoting themselves as the party of the workers over the "metropoiltan" elite. We've had five years of Brexit rhetoric about fighting for the working class, as I mentioned below, so this is a crucial moment.
Labour should adopt the Miliband, German-style consensual and workers-on-boards stance, but, the Tories ? I really haven't the faintest idea what they should do, and it could be another real crisis moment for them, when the working class rhetoric clashes into the demands of their donors for the decisive time.
I tend to agree with most of that last para.
I think that ultimately the Scottish ASLEF settlement (5%) suggests that the TUs can be bought off at a defensible level. The high levels of pay in the rail industry suggest "we the downtrodden" working class won't be much of an argument for ASLEF / RMT - the P&O crisis played much better in that respect.
I wonder if the currently reduced level of rail traffic offers a route for the number of services to be lower without the Govt having to get into a tussle over overtime and so on.
I see the waverers are back on team Tory again. They were wavering for a whole week this time
I would just comment that the 148 and those of us who support them are not 'waverers' but conservatives who want Boris ousted, but support the conservative party against a labour government
There is a difference
Remember when you said your vote was up for grabs and you could vote Labour.
Another lie.
It was nor a lie at the time, but circumstances have changed and the 148 conservatives have my full support and while I did vote for Blair twice, Starmer and labour are not Blair or his labour no matter how much they playact
You’re a big fat liar
Horse, that is beyond unnecessarily unpleasant. Please delete.
Abuse is always unnecessary
Except against people you don’t agree with politically when you engage and cheer people on doing it.
Fuck off you twat
It was me that got stuck in to HYUFD yesterday.
So YOU fuck off you twat.
Yes you were the other user I was referring to, please read up.
You engaged in it, Big G cheered it on. Then Big G posted his own abuse separately.
You're just as despicable as Big G, bullying a user off this site.
Rwanda appears to be a PR exercise. I see in the Mail that the government plans to “advertise” the policy to deter would-be migrants.
Advertise where? The Refugee Gazette? The Wretched-of-the-Earth Advertiser?
The refugees aren't the target audience. The adverts are to gull the gammons into thinking something is being done about the transmanche informal immigrants.
Yes, that I was the point I was trying to make, obviously badly.
It’s an extremely expensive PR exercise for the benefit of the Daily Mail.
We say this at our peril, this will be shoring up votes.
Well not if it’s not effective.
I get that a large percentage of the electorate are quite stupid, but the truth catches up with you eventually.
On topic. Yesterday I already gave PB the next Opinium poll result - after my skill being doubted for calling yesterdays spot on.
MoonRabbit, PBs poll analyst wunderkind writes: what the static post vonc polling is telling us is either it won’t move polls or still needs the “mysterious” extra time to feed into them. However, the all over the shop post vonc Boris fight back is likely to feed into June July polls - it’s looking stark difference to 2019 when Boris seemed to carry the nation, he now looks like he has lost it and can’t speak the electorates language.
Rwanda appears to be a PR exercise. I see in the Mail that the government plans to “advertise” the policy to deter would-be migrants.
Advertise where? The Refugee Gazette? The Wretched-of-the-Earth Advertiser?
The refugees aren't the target audience. The adverts are to gull the gammons into thinking something is being done about the transmanche informal immigrants.
Yes, that I was the point I was trying to make, obviously badly.
It’s an extremely expensive PR exercise for the benefit of the Daily Mail.
We say this at our peril, this will be shoring up votes.
Well not if it’s not effective.
I get that a large percentage of the electorate are quite stupid, but the truth catches up with you eventually.
I hope.
The electorate is not stupid and to say so is why Labour loses elections.
Labour needs to attack this policy as being ineffective and then explain what they would do instead.
On topic. Yesterday I already gave PB the next Opinium poll result - after my skill being doubted for calling yesterdays spot on.
MoonRabbit, PBs poll analyst wunderkind writes: what the static post vonc polling is telling us is either it won’t move polls or still needs the “mysterious” extra time to feed into them. However, the all over the shop post vonc Boris fight back is likely to feed into June July polls - it’s looking stark difference to 2019 when Boris seemed to carry the nation, he now looks like he has lost it and can’t speak the electorates language.
It is one poll but I think there is value in backing a Tory lead.
Yawn, should I become dictator for the day I would make membership of the Oxford Union or even just applying for that fucking PPE course come with a lifetime bar from running for office.
So that would mean Gladstone, Heath and Johnson and Cameron could never have become PM, Hague and Ed Miliband could never have become Leader of the Opposition, Heseltine could never have become Deputy PM, Jeremy Hunt and David Miliband and Liz Truss could never have become Foreign Secretary, Sunak and Philip Hammond and Nigel Lawrence could never have become Chancellor, Yvette Cooper could not be Shadow Home Secretary and Rachel Reeves could not be Shadow Chancellor to name but a few.
I see the waverers are back on team Tory again. They were wavering for a whole week this time
I would just comment that the 148 and those of us who support them are not 'waverers' but conservatives who want Boris ousted, but support the conservative party against a labour government
There is a difference
Remember when you said your vote was up for grabs and you could vote Labour.
Another lie.
It was nor a lie at the time, but circumstances have changed and the 148 conservatives have my full support and while I did vote for Blair twice, Starmer and labour are not Blair or his labour no matter how much they playact
You’re a big fat liar
Horse, that is beyond unnecessarily unpleasant. Please delete.
Abuse is always unnecessary
Except against people you don’t agree with politically when you engage and cheer people on doing it.
Fuck off you twat
It was me that got stuck in to HYUFD yesterday.
So YOU fuck off you twat.
Yes you were the other user I was referring to, please read up.
You engaged in it, Big G cheered it on. Then Big G posted his own abuse separately.
You're just as despicable as Big G, bullying a user off this site.
Time to call this out
Please name the poster that has been bullied off this site
Dear me, you are the one who proclaimed you would be pleased for me to leave the site !!!!
I see the waverers are back on team Tory again. They were wavering for a whole week this time
I would just comment that the 148 and those of us who support them are not 'waverers' but conservatives who want Boris ousted, but support the conservative party against a labour government
There is a difference
Remember when you said your vote was up for grabs and you could vote Labour.
Another lie.
It was nor a lie at the time, but circumstances have changed and the 148 conservatives have my full support and while I did vote for Blair twice, Starmer and labour are not Blair or his labour no matter how much they playact
You’re a big fat liar
Horse, that is beyond unnecessarily unpleasant. Please delete.
Abuse is always unnecessary
Except against people you don’t agree with politically when you engage and cheer people on doing it.
Fuck off you twat
It was me that got stuck in to HYUFD yesterday.
So YOU fuck off you twat.
Yes you were the other user I was referring to, please read up.
You engaged in it, Big G cheered it on. Then Big G posted his own abuse separately.
You're just as despicable as Big G, bullying a user off this site.
Time to call this out
Please name the poster that has been bullied off this site
Dear me, you are the one who proclaimed you would be pleased for me to leave the site !!!!
Jesus Christ, that was clearly a joke.
You tried to bully HYUFD off this site, I know because I read through the posts yesterday.
I quite enjoy all the name calling, but it does seem to deter fantastic posters.
@OnlyLivingBoy seems to have left the site, for example, because he was called a wanker. He’s one of my favourite posters, and tbh I might stop reading this site if it’s confirmed that he’s gone.
I really hope that is not true but language does matter
ROFL, this is what you literally engaged in doing yesterday when you tried to bully HYUFD off this site.
You are going from bad to worse and really need to take your personal vendetta elsewhere
Why don't you apologise to HYUFD for the behaviour you engaged in and cheered on.
I know you're angry because I called you out and that is clear.
Big G gets a lot of stick, often deserved, but I don’t have him down as a liar.
Well I do. Why don't you call him out for his abusive behaviour against HYUFD and Heathener
I have my own views on the nastiest posters. I personally don’t include Big G in that number.
I know which post you are referring to, it was one from @MarqueeMark; Big G just agreed with it.
At least if HYUFD is driven off the site he is the user most likely to be replaceable by an AI bot.
How do we know that hasn't already happened?
An AI bot would admit when it was wrong.
"I don't understand the question. Here's something I do know" is pretty much the AI Bot response that HY gives to most things when he has dug himself into another pit.
I quite enjoy all the name calling, but it does seem to deter fantastic posters.
@OnlyLivingBoy seems to have left the site, for example, because he was called a wanker. He’s one of my favourite posters, and tbh I might stop reading this site if it’s confirmed that he’s gone.
I really hope that is not true but language does matter
ROFL, this is what you literally engaged in doing yesterday when you tried to bully HYUFD off this site.
You are going from bad to worse and really need to take your personal vendetta elsewhere
Why don't you apologise to HYUFD for the behaviour you engaged in and cheered on.
I know you're angry because I called you out and that is clear.
Big G gets a lot of stick, often deserved, but I don’t have him down as a liar.
Well I do. Why don't you call him out for his abusive behaviour against HYUFD and Heathener
I have my own views on the nastiest posters. I personally don’t include Big G in that number.
I know which post you are referring to, it was one from @MarqueeMark; Big G just agreed with it.
It was a foul post and just the latest in Big G's abuse of HYUFD.
My point is that Big G claims he hates bad language and abuse and yet happily engages in it himself or cheers on posters who do it.
Rwanda appears to be a PR exercise. I see in the Mail that the government plans to “advertise” the policy to deter would-be migrants.
Advertise where? The Refugee Gazette? The Wretched-of-the-Earth Advertiser?
The refugees aren't the target audience. The adverts are to gull the gammons into thinking something is being done about the transmanche informal immigrants.
Yes, that I was the point I was trying to make, obviously badly.
It’s an extremely expensive PR exercise for the benefit of the Daily Mail.
We say this at our peril, this will be shoring up votes.
Well not if it’s not effective.
I get that a large percentage of the electorate are quite stupid, but the truth catches up with you eventually.
I hope.
The trouble is we have government-by-trolling.
The whole point of this scheme is to encourage people (Bad People, like the Archbishop of Canterbury and Prince Charles) to speak up against it. Becuase then, the government and its fellow travellers get to sound tough but realistic; "well, what would you do, then?"
It's a joke scheme, that simply doesn't have the numerical oomph behind it to work on its stated terms, but it will take time for the failure to happen. But that's the government's comfort zone- it's the same logic by which you-know-what will fail on the timescale of current voters lifetimes, everyone knows that really, which is why Sweden etc aren't running through the door we opened. But it's not yet politic to say that.
As someone who wants this government to fail so that a sane centre-right can grow out of the ashes, I think the best strategy is to let them get on with it. The sooner the failure comes, the more unambiguous that failure is, the less they can claim to have been stabbed in the back, the better. (See the whinging by frustrated Corbynites here and elsewhere). The trouble is that real people will get hurt as a result.
I see the waverers are back on team Tory again. They were wavering for a whole week this time
I would just comment that the 148 and those of us who support them are not 'waverers' but conservatives who want Boris ousted, but support the conservative party against a labour government
There is a difference
Remember when you said your vote was up for grabs and you could vote Labour.
Another lie.
It was nor a lie at the time, but circumstances have changed and the 148 conservatives have my full support and while I did vote for Blair twice, Starmer and labour are not Blair or his labour no matter how much they playact
You’re a big fat liar
Horse, that is beyond unnecessarily unpleasant. Please delete.
Abuse is always unnecessary
Except against people you don’t agree with politically when you engage and cheer people on doing it.
Fuck off you twat
It was me that got stuck in to HYUFD yesterday.
So YOU fuck off you twat.
Yes you were the other user I was referring to, please read up.
You engaged in it, Big G cheered it on. Then Big G posted his own abuse separately.
You're just as despicable as Big G, bullying a user off this site.
Time to call this out
Please name the poster that has been bullied off this site
Dear me, you are the one who proclaimed you would be pleased for me to leave the site !!!!
Jesus Christ, that was clearly a joke.
You tried to bully HYUFD off this site, I know because I read through the posts yesterday.
I am fed up if talking to you. This is it. Done.
Actually it was not a joke and you were called out about it
You are obviously new here if you think the discourse between @ HYUFD and I stated yesterday, we have been in disagreement for years and to be fair he gives as much as he gets
Rwanda appears to be a PR exercise. I see in the Mail that the government plans to “advertise” the policy to deter would-be migrants.
Advertise where? The Refugee Gazette? The Wretched-of-the-Earth Advertiser?
I thought we’d all agreed about that a while back? It’s trying to discourage them from crossing at all.
When the policy was first announced, a number here were soon proclaiming that it was already having a deterrent effect as there hadn’t been a boat for a week. Now we’ve had a bit more time, we can see the number of boat crossings this year is, so far, massively up on previous years: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/explainers-53734793
Have we had the first 'they're obviously all rushing in before the Rwanda policy gets properly going' yet?
Widdecombe on R4's religious discussion programme this morning giving the UKIP Christian view, we must stop the evil people smugglers and no one's come up with an alternative, ie the same old cack that the BJ Party spouts.
At least if HYUFD is driven off the site he is the user most likely to be replaceable by an AI bot.
How do we know that hasn't already happened?
An AI bot would admit when it was wrong.
"I don't understand the question. Here's something I do know" is pretty much the AI Bot response that HY gives to most things when he has dug himself into another pit.
He’s also a nasty piece of work, when you break down his opinions on various out-groups.
On topic. Yesterday I already gave PB the next Opinium poll result - after my skill being doubted for calling yesterdays spot on.
MoonRabbit, PBs poll analyst wunderkind writes: what the static post vonc polling is telling us is either it won’t move polls or still needs the “mysterious” extra time to feed into them. However, the all over the shop post vonc Boris fight back is likely to feed into June July polls - it’s looking stark difference to 2019 when Boris seemed to carry the nation, he now looks like he has lost it and can’t speak the electorates language.
Holding pattern. Tories near basement in normal run of events (no ultra divisive brexit style issue), labour uninspiring and offering no alternative programme, LDs becoming increadingly attractive as NOTA
At least if HYUFD is driven off the site he is the user most likely to be replaceable by an AI bot.
How do we know that hasn't already happened?
An AI bot would admit when it was wrong.
"I don't understand the question. Here's something I do know" is pretty much the AI Bot response that HY gives to most things when he has dug himself into another pit.
He’s also a nasty piece of work, when you break down his opinions on various out-groups.
Thanks Horse for your comments but to be fair to BigG it was more kjh and Farooq who were being most aggressive to me yesterday.
GardenWalker it seems now joined the PB thought police for which any opinion to the right of David Cameron's is now beyond the pale
Grant Shapps and Karsi Karteng are promising to ignore law that prevents agency workers from busting the coming train strikes.
Just shows how overpaid rail staff have become, if agency workers can simply swan in on first day to engineering, driving and signalling to break this strike? Anyone have a problem with that? Other than maybe a little bit about safety?
That doesn't logically follow.
Agency staff can be incredibly specialised; they can be train drivers with twenty years experience, or cardiothoracic specialist nurses. Very few agency staff are "John from Streatham who usually works in data input" these days.
Agree. But to the degree it can have any noticeable impact on rail strike?
At least if HYUFD is driven off the site he is the user most likely to be replaceable by an AI bot.
How do we know that hasn't already happened?
An AI bot would admit when it was wrong.
HYUFD does admit he's wrong, just not when he's being abused and bullied.
He really doesn't, and that's the core of the problem.
Well I don't agree. He does admit he's wrong.
Does he? Being busy I must have missed them. Can you name three occasions?
Against that he's lectured engineers on the qualifications needed for their profession, university lecturers on the hierarchy of degrees, a number of teachers on how pay is awarded, me on the process for writing academic history, and all of us on points of geography that he clearly doesn't get - e.g. confusing the Persian Gulf and the Red Sea.
And every time, even when it has been repeatedly demonstrated to him that he's wrong, he refuses to accept it and becomes abusive. Which is what the criticism was all about yesterday.
Now there's nothing wrong in being ignorant of these things. Nobody can know everything. But if you are shown to be wrong, by an expert, you should accept instruction and change your views. As most of us do on this forum, which is why it's so informative and pleasant to be in.
Hyufd is more like Cummings or Gove, in that if the facts disagree with his views, the facts are wrong.
Which is unfortunate because in many key ways he is a very valuable poster. His knowledge of polling is unrivalled and he does provide a key insight into the tribal Tory right.
At least if HYUFD is driven off the site he is the user most likely to be replaceable by an AI bot.
How do we know that hasn't already happened?
An AI bot would admit when it was wrong.
"I don't understand the question. Here's something I do know" is pretty much the AI Bot response that HY gives to most things when he has dug himself into another pit.
He’s also a nasty piece of work, when you break down his opinions on various out-groups.
Thanks Horse for your comments but to be fair to BigG it was more kjh and Farooq who were being most aggressive to me yesterday.
GardenWalker it seems now joined the PB thought police for which any opinion to the right of David Cameron's is now beyond the pale
Who said anything about the thought police? Nobody is trying to censor you. Just pointing out that what you say is usually nasty and spiteful towards whatever non-you group you are attacking and so often comedic and wrong.
3% across the Public Sector isn't going to cut it at all. There will be wider, co-ordinated strikes. Which may be more popular than train drivers. If anyone thinks that can be solved by agency workers needs to explain 110k vacancies in the NHS alone.
Rwanda appears to be a PR exercise. I see in the Mail that the government plans to “advertise” the policy to deter would-be migrants.
Advertise where? The Refugee Gazette? The Wretched-of-the-Earth Advertiser?
The refugees aren't the target audience. The adverts are to gull the gammons into thinking something is being done about the transmanche informal immigrants.
Yes, that I was the point I was trying to make, obviously badly.
It’s an extremely expensive PR exercise for the benefit of the Daily Mail.
We say this at our peril, this will be shoring up votes.
Well not if it’s not effective.
I get that a large percentage of the electorate are quite stupid, but the truth catches up with you eventually.
I hope.
The trouble is we have government-by-trolling.
The whole point of this scheme is to encourage people (Bad People, like the Archbishop of Canterbury and Prince Charles) to speak up against it. Becuase then, the government and its fellow travellers get to sound tough but realistic; "well, what would you do, then?"
It's a joke scheme, that simply doesn't have the numerical oomph behind it to work on its stated terms, but it will take time for the failure to happen. But that's the government's comfort zone- it's the same logic by which you-know-what will fail on the timescale of current voters lifetimes, everyone knows that really, which is why Sweden etc aren't running through the door we opened. But it's not yet politic to say that.
As someone who wants this government to fail so that a sane centre-right can grow out of the ashes, I think the best strategy is to let them get on with it. The sooner the failure comes, the more unambiguous that failure is, the less they can claim to have been stabbed in the back, the better. (See the whinging by frustrated Corbynites here and elsewhere). The trouble is that real people will get hurt as a result.
I am extraordinary pessimistic about the state of Britain. I see no “sane centre-right” waiting in the wings, nor a very plausible “sane centre-left”, and if this board is anything to go by the entire country is distracted by trivia like imperial measures and this Rwanda stunt.
Of course it’s no better in the US, but for years and years we laughed at how shit American politics was and how better off we were in sensible, doughy Britain.
At least if HYUFD is driven off the site he is the user most likely to be replaceable by an AI bot.
How do we know that hasn't already happened?
An AI bot would admit when it was wrong.
HYUFD does admit he's wrong, just not when he's being abused and bullied.
He really doesn't, and that's the core of the problem.
Well I don't agree. He does admit he's wrong.
Does he? Being busy I must have missed them. Can you name three occasions?
Against that he's lectured engineers on the qualifications needed for their profession, university lecturers on the hierarchy of degrees, a number of teachers on how pay is awarded, me on the process for writing academic history, and all of us on points of geography that he clearly doesn't get - e.g. confusing the Persian Gulf and the Red Sea.
And every time, even when it has been repeatedly demonstrated to him that he's wrong, he refuses to accept it and becomes abusive. Which is what the criticism was all about yesterday.
Now there's nothing wrong in being ignorant of these things. Nobody can know everything. But if you are shown to be wrong, by an expert, you should accept instruction and change your views.
Hyufd is more like Cummings or Gove, in that if the facts disagree with his views, the facts are wrong.
Which is unfortunate because in many key ways he is a very valuable poster. His knowledge of polling is unrivalled and he does provide a key insight into the tribal Tory right.
If people don't want a more aggressive response from me then they shouldn't dish it out themselves.
I certainly don't pretend to be an expert, this is a forum for political argument and discussion if anything not an academic seminar.
There aren’t enough non-Tories on here, and the ones that put their heads above the parapet are getting driven off.
Is it because non-Tories are soft? Or just less nasty? Or is it because they have better things to do?
Or their views are so set they cannot see a reason to discuss them on a forum.
Actually, I think the problem is in your framing, in particular, 'non-Tories'. It seems most posters on here get called a 'Tory' at some point or another (sometimes ludicrously) as a form of silly insult.
Hence my "We are all PB Tories now, comrade!" line.
I'm often called a 'Tory', even though I haven't voted for them since 2015-7 or so. There's lots of agreement in the middle ground on many points, and the arguments are over detail. Yet anyone veering slightly large-C Conservative on an issue gets immediately put into the 'Tory' camp.
There aren’t enough non-Tories on here, and the ones that put their heads above the parapet are getting driven off.
Is it because non-Tories are soft? Or just less nasty? Or is it because they have better things to do?
Or their views are so set they cannot see a reason to discuss them on a forum.
Actually, I think the problem is in your framing, in particular, 'non-Tories'. It seems most posters on here get called a 'Tory' at some point or another (sometimes ludicrously) as a form of silly insult.
Hence my "We are all PB Tories now, comrade!" line.
I'm often called a 'Tory', even though I haven't voted for them since 2015-7 or so. There's lots of agreement in the middle ground on many points, and the arguments are over detail. Yet anyone veering slightly large-C Conservative on an issue gets immediately put into the 'Tory' camp.
Thanks for your response. To be frank, I put you in the “Tory” camp. Perhaps that’s unfair, but I see you as exceedingly “small c”.
That doesn’t invalidate anything you say, but I miss broadly progressive views.
There aren’t enough non-Tories on here, and the ones that put their heads above the parapet are getting driven off.
Is it because non-Tories are soft? Or just less nasty? Or is it because they have better things to do?
Relatively well-to-do, middle-aged and older gentlemen trend Conservative. No particular reason why the PB commentariat should be any different to the wider population in that regard.
At least if HYUFD is driven off the site he is the user most likely to be replaceable by an AI bot.
How do we know that hasn't already happened?
An AI bot would admit when it was wrong.
HYUFD does admit he's wrong, just not when he's being abused and bullied.
He really doesn't, and that's the core of the problem.
Well I don't agree. He does admit he's wrong.
Does he? Being busy I must have missed them. Can you name three occasions?
Against that he's lectured engineers on the qualifications needed for their profession, university lecturers on the hierarchy of degrees, a number of teachers on how pay is awarded, me on the process for writing academic history, and all of us on points of geography that he clearly doesn't get - e.g. confusing the Persian Gulf and the Red Sea.
And every time, even when it has been repeatedly demonstrated to him that he's wrong, he refuses to accept it and becomes abusive. Which is what the criticism was all about yesterday.
Now there's nothing wrong in being ignorant of these things. Nobody can know everything. But if you are shown to be wrong, by an expert, you should accept instruction and change your views.
Hyufd is more like Cummings or Gove, in that if the facts disagree with his views, the facts are wrong.
Which is unfortunate because in many key ways he is a very valuable poster. His knowledge of polling is unrivalled and he does provide a key insight into the tribal Tory right.
If people don't want a more aggressive response from me then they shouldn't dish it out themselves.
I certainly don't pretend to be an expert, this is a forum for political argument and discussion if anything not an academic seminar.
Thanks for your final sentence
But you don't discuss, do you? You declaim. And when you are shown to be wrong, you never back down,
That in itself is both aggressive and impolite. Effectively, you are saying you know better than the rest of us.
I don't know why I'm bothering to say this, TBF, because lots of us have said it to you lots of times and you never listen.
On topic. Yesterday I already gave PB the next Opinium poll result - after my skill being doubted for calling yesterdays spot on.
MoonRabbit, PBs poll analyst wunderkind writes: what the static post vonc polling is telling us is either it won’t move polls or still needs the “mysterious” extra time to feed into them. However, the all over the shop post vonc Boris fight back is likely to feed into June July polls - it’s looking stark difference to 2019 when Boris seemed to carry the nation, he now looks like he has lost it and can’t speak the electorates language.
It is one poll but I think there is value in backing a Tory lead.
Zero chance of Tory poll lead this June July from either Opinium or Kantor according to MoonRabbit.
YouGov number generator system could throw up anything, but shouldn’t be allowed to stand considering their next poll will put Labour six ahead again.
As explained yesterday, both the Opinium Mechanism and the media narrative will grow the next Opinium Lab lead by +1 or 2.
There aren’t enough non-Tories on here, and the ones that put their heads above the parapet are getting driven off.
Is it because non-Tories are soft? Or just less nasty? Or is it because they have better things to do?
'There aren’t enough non-Tories on here?' Are you being serious, virtually everyone on here now backs Starmer Labour or the LDs or SNP at the moment, even former Tories like TSE and BigG and Nigel Foremain are anti Boris.
Despite the Tories being on 34% in the latest poll you can count the number of Boris loyalist Tories on here on one hand and that is including me in them!
There aren’t enough non-Tories on here, and the ones that put their heads above the parapet are getting driven off.
Is it because non-Tories are soft? Or just less nasty? Or is it because they have better things to do?
Relatively well-to-do, middle-aged and older gentlemen trend Conservative. No particular reason why the PB commentariat should be any different to the wider population in that regard.
My point is that it’s got worse. That’s just my instinct.
It may be an exogenous force; the weird stasis in party politics means we go round and round in circles. We are repeating the same arguments over and over; this didn’t use to be the case.
There aren’t enough non-Tories on here, and the ones that put their heads above the parapet are getting driven off.
Is it because non-Tories are soft? Or just less nasty? Or is it because they have better things to do?
'There aren’t enough non-Tories on here?' Are you being serious, virtually everyone on here now backs Starmer Labour or the LDs or SNP at the moment, even former Tories like TSE and BigG and Nigel Foremain are anti Boris.
Despite the Tories being on 34% in the latest poll you can count the number of Boris loyalist Tories on here on one hand and that is including me in them!
Helpfully 1c gives you the option to state 'items should not be sold in imperial measures'.
Have filled in the consultation. Pointing out that its not 1953 so why would we want to ignore the metric global standard and impose huge costs on ourselves? Again?
Key section in the consultation document on the current law:
"As a result, in general, while imperial units can be used alongside metric units, the imperial markings must be no larger or no more prominent than the metric ones."
At least if HYUFD is driven off the site he is the user most likely to be replaceable by an AI bot.
How do we know that hasn't already happened?
An AI bot would admit when it was wrong.
"I don't understand the question. Here's something I do know" is pretty much the AI Bot response that HY gives to most things when he has dug himself into another pit.
He’s also a nasty piece of work, when you break down his opinions on various out-groups.
Thanks Horse for your comments but to be fair to BigG it was more kjh and Farooq who were being most aggressive to me yesterday.
GardenWalker it seems now joined the PB thought police for which any opinion to the right of David Cameron's is now beyond the pale
Helpfully 1c gives you the option to state 'items should not be sold in imperial measures'.
Have filled in the consultation. Pointing out that its not 1953 so why would we want to ignore the metric global standard and impose huge costs on ourselves? Again?
Ditto, thanks for the tip-off @Tres. I have filled in the consultation, but honestly what a waste of government time and effort.
It's a good job the country doesn't have any real issues to solve, eh?
Helpfully 1c gives you the option to state 'items should not be sold in imperial measures'.
Have filled in the consultation. Pointing out that its not 1953 so why would we want to ignore the metric global standard and impose huge costs on ourselves? Again?
Key section in the consultation document on the current law:
"As a result, in general, while imperial units can be used alongside metric units, the imperial markings must be no larger or no more prominent than the metric ones."
Absolute non-issue.
I would tick the box marked "almost anything else I can think of is more important".
At least if HYUFD is driven off the site he is the user most likely to be replaceable by an AI bot.
How do we know that hasn't already happened?
An AI bot would admit when it was wrong.
HYUFD does admit he's wrong, just not when he's being abused and bullied.
He really doesn't, and that's the core of the problem.
Well I don't agree. He does admit he's wrong.
Does he? Being busy I must have missed them. Can you name three occasions?
Against that he's lectured engineers on the qualifications needed for their profession, university lecturers on the hierarchy of degrees, a number of teachers on how pay is awarded, me on the process for writing academic history, and all of us on points of geography that he clearly doesn't get - e.g. confusing the Persian Gulf and the Red Sea.
And every time, even when it has been repeatedly demonstrated to him that he's wrong, he refuses to accept it and becomes abusive. Which is what the criticism was all about yesterday.
Now there's nothing wrong in being ignorant of these things. Nobody can know everything. But if you are shown to be wrong, by an expert, you should accept instruction and change your views.
Hyufd is more like Cummings or Gove, in that if the facts disagree with his views, the facts are wrong.
Which is unfortunate because in many key ways he is a very valuable poster. His knowledge of polling is unrivalled and he does provide a key insight into the tribal Tory right.
If people don't want a more aggressive response from me then they shouldn't dish it out themselves.
I certainly don't pretend to be an expert, this is a forum for political argument and discussion if anything not an academic seminar.
Thanks for your final sentence
To be fair and though we have many differences you do argue your point and give as much as you get and rarely are anything but polite
My problem with @CorrectHorseBattery this morning was his foul and abusive language directed personally at me. but also his accusation that at times our intense interactions are bullying and shouting which is more than ridiculous as it could be applied across the forum and is a form of cancel culture
There aren’t enough non-Tories on here, and the ones that put their heads above the parapet are getting driven off.
Is it because non-Tories are soft? Or just less nasty? Or is it because they have better things to do?
'There aren’t enough non-Tories on here?' Are you being serious, virtually everyone on here now backs Starmer Labour or the LDs or SNP at the moment, even former Tories like TSE and BigG and Nigel Foremain are anti Boris.
Despite the Tories being on 34% in the latest poll you can count the number of Boris loyalist Tories on here on one hand and that is including me in them!
There's Boris loyalists and Tories. No overlap
Wrong, 58% of Tory MPs just backed Boris, as did 59% of Conservative voters and 53% of Tory Party members
Rwanda appears to be a PR exercise. I see in the Mail that the government plans to “advertise” the policy to deter would-be migrants.
Advertise where? The Refugee Gazette? The Wretched-of-the-Earth Advertiser?
The refugees aren't the target audience. The adverts are to gull the gammons into thinking something is being done about the transmanche informal immigrants.
Yes, that I was the point I was trying to make, obviously badly.
It’s an extremely expensive PR exercise for the benefit of the Daily Mail.
We say this at our peril, this will be shoring up votes.
Well not if it’s not effective.
I get that a large percentage of the electorate are quite stupid, but the truth catches up with you eventually.
I hope.
The trouble is we have government-by-trolling.
The whole point of this scheme is to encourage people (Bad People, like the Archbishop of Canterbury and Prince Charles) to speak up against it. Becuase then, the government and its fellow travellers get to sound tough but realistic; "well, what would you do, then?"
It's a joke scheme, that simply doesn't have the numerical oomph behind it to work on its stated terms, but it will take time for the failure to happen. But that's the government's comfort zone- it's the same logic by which you-know-what will fail on the timescale of current voters lifetimes, everyone knows that really, which is why Sweden etc aren't running through the door we opened. But it's not yet politic to say that.
As someone who wants this government to fail so that a sane centre-right can grow out of the ashes, I think the best strategy is to let them get on with it. The sooner the failure comes, the more unambiguous that failure is, the less they can claim to have been stabbed in the back, the better. (See the whinging by frustrated Corbynites here and elsewhere). The trouble is that real people will get hurt as a result.
I am extraordinary pessimistic about the state of Britain. I see no “sane centre-right” waiting in the wings, nor a very plausible “sane centre-left”, and if this board is anything to go by the entire country is distracted by trivia like imperial measures and this Rwanda stunt.
Of course it’s no better in the US, but for years and years we laughed at how shit American politics was and how better off we were in sensible, doughy Britain.
No longer.
The whole purpose in stunts like Rwanda and resurrecting the Groat is because the government has no policies, no ideas, no care about the cost of living crisis or the affects of the Brexit settlement in NI and GB or any other issue.
I do agree though - I don't see much hope of a way back to what I would consider to be civilised debate. Teesside increasingly felt like a hate pit and I didn't see much sign of elsewhere being better. So we left for Scotland. Where we're insulated from much of it.
There aren’t enough non-Tories on here, and the ones that put their heads above the parapet are getting driven off.
Is it because non-Tories are soft? Or just less nasty? Or is it because they have better things to do?
'There aren’t enough non-Tories on here?' Are you being serious, virtually everyone on here now backs Starmer Labour or the LDs or SNP at the moment, even former Tories like TSE and BigG and Nigel Foremain are anti Boris.
Despite the Tories being on 34% in the latest poll you can count the number of Boris loyalist Tories on here on one hand and that is including me in them!
There's Boris loyalists and Tories. No overlap
Yes. I don’t mean Boris loyalists, they are beyond the pale. I mean there are too many instinctive Tories.
Actually, what I mean is that there aren’t enough *progressive* voices, and those that we do have are often driven off.
At least if HYUFD is driven off the site he is the user most likely to be replaceable by an AI bot.
How do we know that hasn't already happened?
An AI bot would admit when it was wrong.
HYUFD does admit he's wrong, just not when he's being abused and bullied.
He really doesn't, and that's the core of the problem.
Well I don't agree. He does admit he's wrong.
Does he? Being busy I must have missed them. Can you name three occasions?
Against that he's lectured engineers on the qualifications needed for their profession, university lecturers on the hierarchy of degrees, a number of teachers on how pay is awarded, me on the process for writing academic history, and all of us on points of geography that he clearly doesn't get - e.g. confusing the Persian Gulf and the Red Sea.
And every time, even when it has been repeatedly demonstrated to him that he's wrong, he refuses to accept it and becomes abusive. Which is what the criticism was all about yesterday.
Now there's nothing wrong in being ignorant of these things. Nobody can know everything. But if you are shown to be wrong, by an expert, you should accept instruction and change your views.
Hyufd is more like Cummings or Gove, in that if the facts disagree with his views, the facts are wrong.
Which is unfortunate because in many key ways he is a very valuable poster. His knowledge of polling is unrivalled and he does provide a key insight into the tribal Tory right.
If people don't want a more aggressive response from me then they shouldn't dish it out themselves.
I certainly don't pretend to be an expert, this is a forum for political argument and discussion if anything not an academic seminar.
Thanks for your final sentence
To be fair and though we have many differences you do argue your point and give as much as you get and rarely are anything but polite
My problem with @CorrectHorseBattery this morning was his foul and abusive language directed personally at me. but also his accusation that at times our intense interactions are bullying and shouting which is more than ridiculous as it could be applied across the forum and is a form of cancel culture
To be fair to you BigG there are also far ruder posters on here than you, you are also normally reasonably polite
There aren’t enough non-Tories on here, and the ones that put their heads above the parapet are getting driven off.
Is it because non-Tories are soft? Or just less nasty? Or is it because they have better things to do?
'There aren’t enough non-Tories on here?' Are you being serious, virtually everyone on here now backs Starmer Labour or the LDs or SNP at the moment, even former Tories like TSE and BigG and Nigel Foremain are anti Boris.
Despite the Tories being on 34% in the latest poll you can count the number of Boris loyalist Tories on here on one hand and that is including me in them!
There's Boris loyalists and Tories. No overlap
Yes. I don’t mean Boris loyalists, they are beyond the pale. I mean there are too many instinctive Tories.
Actually, what I mean is that there aren’t enough *progressive* voices, and those that we do have are often driven off.
Follow my twice weekly The British Empire was not a moral crusade spot
At least if HYUFD is driven off the site he is the user most likely to be replaceable by an AI bot.
How do we know that hasn't already happened?
An AI bot would admit when it was wrong.
HYUFD does admit he's wrong, just not when he's being abused and bullied.
He really doesn't, and that's the core of the problem.
Well I don't agree. He does admit he's wrong.
Does he? Being busy I must have missed them. Can you name three occasions?
Against that he's lectured engineers on the qualifications needed for their profession, university lecturers on the hierarchy of degrees, a number of teachers on how pay is awarded, me on the process for writing academic history, and all of us on points of geography that he clearly doesn't get - e.g. confusing the Persian Gulf and the Red Sea.
And every time, even when it has been repeatedly demonstrated to him that he's wrong, he refuses to accept it and becomes abusive. Which is what the criticism was all about yesterday.
Now there's nothing wrong in being ignorant of these things. Nobody can know everything. But if you are shown to be wrong, by an expert, you should accept instruction and change your views.
Hyufd is more like Cummings or Gove, in that if the facts disagree with his views, the facts are wrong.
Which is unfortunate because in many key ways he is a very valuable poster. His knowledge of polling is unrivalled and he does provide a key insight into the tribal Tory right.
If people don't want a more aggressive response from me then they shouldn't dish it out themselves.
I certainly don't pretend to be an expert, this is a forum for political argument and discussion if anything not an academic seminar.
Thanks for your final sentence
But you do. At point point you haughtily lectured me about a place I used to live that you had never visited. Telling me how I was wrong.
Ive just been poring over the red wall 2019 results to assust with pouring cold water on the 'only boris can deliver the red wall' garbage. Nonsense. In almost all the gains its all about the collapse of the Labour vote. Cons added between 1 and 4000 in most, Labour lost several thousand in all of them (many to Farage and co). Theres your red wall battle, do the missing labour voters come home? Or is BXP the new UKIP 2015 gateway drug? If they go back to Labour then so do the seats in large part
At least if HYUFD is driven off the site he is the user most likely to be replaceable by an AI bot.
How do we know that hasn't already happened?
An AI bot would admit when it was wrong.
HYUFD does admit he's wrong, just not when he's being abused and bullied.
He really doesn't, and that's the core of the problem.
Well I don't agree. He does admit he's wrong.
Does he? Being busy I must have missed them. Can you name three occasions?
Against that he's lectured engineers on the qualifications needed for their profession, university lecturers on the hierarchy of degrees, a number of teachers on how pay is awarded, me on the process for writing academic history, and all of us on points of geography that he clearly doesn't get - e.g. confusing the Persian Gulf and the Red Sea.
And every time, even when it has been repeatedly demonstrated to him that he's wrong, he refuses to accept it and becomes abusive. Which is what the criticism was all about yesterday.
Now there's nothing wrong in being ignorant of these things. Nobody can know everything. But if you are shown to be wrong, by an expert, you should accept instruction and change your views.
Hyufd is more like Cummings or Gove, in that if the facts disagree with his views, the facts are wrong.
Which is unfortunate because in many key ways he is a very valuable poster. His knowledge of polling is unrivalled and he does provide a key insight into the tribal Tory right.
If people don't want a more aggressive response from me then they shouldn't dish it out themselves.
I certainly don't pretend to be an expert, this is a forum for political argument and discussion if anything not an academic seminar.
Thanks for your final sentence
But you do. At point point you haughtily lectured me about a place I used to live that you had never visited. Telling me how I was wrong.
In which case you also equally claim to be an expert too
There aren’t enough non-Tories on here, and the ones that put their heads above the parapet are getting driven off.
Is it because non-Tories are soft? Or just less nasty? Or is it because they have better things to do?
'There aren’t enough non-Tories on here?' Are you being serious, virtually everyone on here now backs Starmer Labour or the LDs or SNP at the moment, even former Tories like TSE and BigG and Nigel Foremain are anti Boris.
Despite the Tories being on 34% in the latest poll you can count the number of Boris loyalist Tories on here on one hand and that is including me in them!
What does being "anti-Boris" have to do with non-Tories? You truly are a prat.
There aren’t enough non-Tories on here, and the ones that put their heads above the parapet are getting driven off.
Is it because non-Tories are soft? Or just less nasty? Or is it because they have better things to do?
Or their views are so set they cannot see a reason to discuss them on a forum.
Actually, I think the problem is in your framing, in particular, 'non-Tories'. It seems most posters on here get called a 'Tory' at some point or another (sometimes ludicrously) as a form of silly insult.
Hence my "We are all PB Tories now, comrade!" line.
I'm often called a 'Tory', even though I haven't voted for them since 2015-7 or so. There's lots of agreement in the middle ground on many points, and the arguments are over detail. Yet anyone veering slightly large-C Conservative on an issue gets immediately put into the 'Tory' camp.
Thanks for your response. To be frank, I put you in the “Tory” camp. Perhaps that’s unfair, but I see you as exceedingly “small c”.
That doesn’t invalidate anything you say, but I miss broadly progressive views.
As I prefer evolution to revolution, I am probably small-c conservative. There's good discussion on whether evolution or revolution are better (or on which occasions each is better), but it doesn't get touched on much here. I'd take women in the Church of England as a starting point, or gay marriage. Would they have occurred if we had not had the gentle steps towards them, but had gone for the much stronger position we got to in stages over a couple of decades?
But that is far from being a 'Tory'. Which is my point.
Also, small-c conservative does not mean unprogressive. It may mean people want to be more careful about change, though (hence evolution rather than revolution).
I see myself as fiscally right-wing (although I think the tax burden should increase, as I've said many times passim), and socially I'm fairly liberal. That makes me much more at home with Blair's Labour Party, or Cameron's Conservatives, than it does Corbyn's Labour Party or Johnson's Conservatives.
There aren’t enough non-Tories on here, and the ones that put their heads above the parapet are getting driven off.
Is it because non-Tories are soft? Or just less nasty? Or is it because they have better things to do?
'There aren’t enough non-Tories on here?' Are you being serious, virtually everyone on here now backs Starmer Labour or the LDs or SNP at the moment, even former Tories like TSE and BigG and Nigel Foremain are anti Boris.
Despite the Tories being on 34% in the latest poll you can count the number of Boris loyalist Tories on here on one hand and that is including me in them!
I think you can count the number of Boris loyalist Tories on here on one finger.
Rwanda appears to be a PR exercise. I see in the Mail that the government plans to “advertise” the policy to deter would-be migrants.
Advertise where? The Refugee Gazette? The Wretched-of-the-Earth Advertiser?
The refugees aren't the target audience. The adverts are to gull the gammons into thinking something is being done about the transmanche informal immigrants.
Yes, that I was the point I was trying to make, obviously badly.
It’s an extremely expensive PR exercise for the benefit of the Daily Mail.
We say this at our peril, this will be shoring up votes.
Well not if it’s not effective.
I get that a large percentage of the electorate are quite stupid, but the truth catches up with you eventually.
I hope.
The trouble is we have government-by-trolling.
The whole point of this scheme is to encourage people (Bad People, like the Archbishop of Canterbury and Prince Charles) to speak up against it. Becuase then, the government and its fellow travellers get to sound tough but realistic; "well, what would you do, then?"
It's a joke scheme, that simply doesn't have the numerical oomph behind it to work on its stated terms, but it will take time for the failure to happen. But that's the government's comfort zone- it's the same logic by which you-know-what will fail on the timescale of current voters lifetimes, everyone knows that really, which is why Sweden etc aren't running through the door we opened. But it's not yet politic to say that.
As someone who wants this government to fail so that a sane centre-right can grow out of the ashes, I think the best strategy is to let them get on with it. The sooner the failure comes, the more unambiguous that failure is, the less they can claim to have been stabbed in the back, the better. (See the whinging by frustrated Corbynites here and elsewhere). The trouble is that real people will get hurt as a result.
I am extraordinary pessimistic about the state of Britain. I see no “sane centre-right” waiting in the wings, nor a very plausible “sane centre-left”, and if this board is anything to go by the entire country is distracted by trivia like imperial measures and this Rwanda stunt.
Of course it’s no better in the US, but for years and years we laughed at how shit American politics was and how better off we were in sensible, doughy Britain.
No longer.
The whole purpose in stunts like Rwanda and resurrecting the Groat is because the government has no policies, no ideas, no care about the cost of living crisis or the affects of the Brexit settlement in NI and GB or any other issue.
I do agree though - I don't see much hope of a way back to what I would consider to be civilised debate. Teesside increasingly felt like a hate pit and I didn't see much sign of elsewhere being better. So we left for Scotland. Where we're insulated from much of it.
Rwanda is a sideshow. Like you say elsewhere go after the exploiters of these migrants, the rogue employers. Won’t happen. Rwanda is to appear tough yet migration into the U.K. is very Hugh by previous levels but people are perfectly relaxed about it. The FT article I linked to elsewhere in the forum was quite illuminating.
Helpfully 1c gives you the option to state 'items should not be sold in imperial measures'.
Have filled in the consultation. Pointing out that its not 1953 so why would we want to ignore the metric global standard and impose huge costs on ourselves? Again?
Key section in the consultation document on the current law:
"As a result, in general, while imperial units can be used alongside metric units, the imperial markings must be no larger or no more prominent than the metric ones."
There aren’t enough non-Tories on here, and the ones that put their heads above the parapet are getting driven off.
Is it because non-Tories are soft? Or just less nasty? Or is it because they have better things to do?
'There aren’t enough non-Tories on here?' Are you being serious, virtually everyone on here now backs Starmer Labour or the LDs or SNP at the moment, even former Tories like TSE and BigG and Nigel Foremain are anti Boris.
Despite the Tories being on 34% in the latest poll you can count the number of Boris loyalist Tories on here on one hand and that is including me in them!
There's Boris loyalists and Tories. No overlap
Yes. I don’t mean Boris loyalists, they are beyond the pale. I mean there are too many instinctive Tories.
Actually, what I mean is that there aren’t enough *progressive* voices, and those that we do have are often driven off.
So about 34% of the country ie the number still voting for the Tories under Boris, are now 'beyond the pale' and you also complain there aren't enough leftwing voices on here? Presumably only Labour, LD, Green and SNP voters and Jeremy Hunt supporting Tories to be allowed to post on here if you had your way?
At least if HYUFD is driven off the site he is the user most likely to be replaceable by an AI bot.
How do we know that hasn't already happened?
An AI bot would admit when it was wrong.
HYUFD does admit he's wrong, just not when he's being abused and bullied.
He really doesn't, and that's the core of the problem.
Well I don't agree. He does admit he's wrong.
Does he? Being busy I must have missed them. Can you name three occasions?
Against that he's lectured engineers on the qualifications needed for their profession, university lecturers on the hierarchy of degrees, a number of teachers on how pay is awarded, me on the process for writing academic history, and all of us on points of geography that he clearly doesn't get - e.g. confusing the Persian Gulf and the Red Sea.
And every time, even when it has been repeatedly demonstrated to him that he's wrong, he refuses to accept it and becomes abusive. Which is what the criticism was all about yesterday.
Now there's nothing wrong in being ignorant of these things. Nobody can know everything. But if you are shown to be wrong, by an expert, you should accept instruction and change your views.
Hyufd is more like Cummings or Gove, in that if the facts disagree with his views, the facts are wrong.
Which is unfortunate because in many key ways he is a very valuable poster. His knowledge of polling is unrivalled and he does provide a key insight into the tribal Tory right.
If people don't want a more aggressive response from me then they shouldn't dish it out themselves.
I certainly don't pretend to be an expert, this is a forum for political argument and discussion if anything not an academic seminar.
Thanks for your final sentence
But you do. At point point you haughtily lectured me about a place I used to live that you had never visited. Telling me how I was wrong.
In which case you also equally claim to be an expert too
At least if HYUFD is driven off the site he is the user most likely to be replaceable by an AI bot.
How do we know that hasn't already happened?
An AI bot would admit when it was wrong.
HYUFD does admit he's wrong, just not when he's being abused and bullied.
He really doesn't, and that's the core of the problem.
Well I don't agree. He does admit he's wrong.
Does he? Being busy I must have missed them. Can you name three occasions?
Against that he's lectured engineers on the qualifications needed for their profession, university lecturers on the hierarchy of degrees, a number of teachers on how pay is awarded, me on the process for writing academic history, and all of us on points of geography that he clearly doesn't get - e.g. confusing the Persian Gulf and the Red Sea.
And every time, even when it has been repeatedly demonstrated to him that he's wrong, he refuses to accept it and becomes abusive. Which is what the criticism was all about yesterday.
Now there's nothing wrong in being ignorant of these things. Nobody can know everything. But if you are shown to be wrong, by an expert, you should accept instruction and change your views.
Hyufd is more like Cummings or Gove, in that if the facts disagree with his views, the facts are wrong.
Which is unfortunate because in many key ways he is a very valuable poster. His knowledge of polling is unrivalled and he does provide a key insight into the tribal Tory right.
If people don't want a more aggressive response from me then they shouldn't dish it out themselves.
I certainly don't pretend to be an expert, this is a forum for political argument and discussion if anything not an academic seminar.
Thanks for your final sentence
But you do. At point point you haughtily lectured me about a place I used to live that you had never visited. Telling me how I was wrong.
In which case you also equally claim to be an expert too
I claimed to know more about the place I lived in for 4 years which you have never visited than you do. Because I do. And yet you claimed the opposite. In that conceited haughty sneer of yours.
Anyway, enough of this PB playground squabbling (someone walked off and not our friends again for being called a ******?) let’s get back to being webs premier resource for political betting. And let’s slap down this fantasy bet on Johnson going before the next election with the reality we now know what will happen, even if there is another VONC.
if there are people serious about their career taking them to the party leadership they will now prefer to wait (Portillo and David Milliband Style) till after Boris has to go after losing eighty seat majority, for their time to take over, rather like with Major it soon now moves into the territory of the next election so contests put on hold. Who wants the last fag end year of this car crash and election defeat on their CV, get real.
How about big dog finds 66 chairpersons to endorse him? Touché as Mogg would say 😂
Or maybe, and here’s a very plausible one I don’t think anyone has raised yet. There’s another vonc and Boris loses by one, so can’t stand can he? Think again PB, because you know MoonRabbit is right again 😁 You think Boris loses VONC and it’s all over? With 60% of members demanding he is in the leadership ballot? If all these rules can be fiddled with then let me offer the change where Boris is allowed to stand, and he wins, doesn’t he, in the membership vote. Who stands against him, serious players from cabinet? Who wants the last fag end year of this car crash and election defeat on their CV, when in year they are the saviour. The right, the ERG? Nope. They have him by the balls now, their policies are now the governments policy. It will be Hunt v Boris part 2 and Boris will win with more than 60%.
He is the leader till he stands down, and Prime Minister not mere LOTO - he is Prime Minister till a General Election proves otherwise, did you really think you could get rid of him?
Comments
I see in the Mail that the government plans to “advertise” the policy to deter would-be migrants.
Advertise where? The Refugee Gazette?
The Wretched-of-the-Earth Advertiser?
Nandy and Streeting were unwise to nail their colours to the RMT union
@OnlyLivingBoy seems to have left the site, for example, because he was called a wanker.
He’s one of my favourite posters, and tbh I might stop reading this site if it’s confirmed that he’s gone.
And by the way, I have never sworn or used bad language in any discussion on this forum
Nor have I ever said how pleased I would be if a poster left the site
I know you're angry because I called you out and that is clear.
It’s an extremely expensive PR exercise for the benefit of the Daily Mail.
Is it because non-Tories are soft? Or just less nasty? Or is it because they have better things to do?
You literally liked and then re-posted a post yesterday which told HYUFD to fuck off from this site.
I am getting increasingly bored of talking to you, so goodbye.
So YOU fuck off you twat.
I am not angry, just sad that you feel you need to use foul and abusive language in a vain attempt to make a point
I think that ultimately the Scottish ASLEF settlement (5%) suggests that the TUs can be bought off at a defensible level. The high levels of pay in the rail industry suggest "we the downtrodden" working class won't be much of an argument for ASLEF / RMT - the P&O crisis played much better in that respect.
I wonder if the currently reduced level of rail traffic offers a route for the number of services to be lower without the Govt having to get into a tussle over overtime and so on.
You engaged in it, Big G cheered it on. Then Big G posted his own abuse separately.
You're just as despicable as Big G, bullying a user off this site.
I get that a large percentage of the electorate are quite stupid, but the truth catches up with you eventually.
I hope.
MoonRabbit, PBs poll analyst wunderkind writes: what the static post vonc polling is telling us is either it won’t move polls or still needs the “mysterious” extra time to feed into them. However, the all over the shop post vonc Boris fight back is likely to feed into June July polls - it’s looking stark difference to 2019 when Boris seemed to carry the nation, he now looks like he has lost it and can’t speak the electorates language.
Labour needs to attack this policy as being ineffective and then explain what they would do instead.
Tres for PM!
Please name the poster that has been bullied off this site
Dear me, you are the one who proclaimed you would be pleased for me to leave the site !!!!
The electorate might well ask, we voted for you to get Brexit done, why isn't it done?
You tried to bully HYUFD off this site, I know because I read through the posts yesterday.
I am fed up if talking to you. This is it. Done.
I personally don’t include Big G in that number.
I know which post you are referring to, it was one from @MarqueeMark; Big G just agreed with it.
My point is that Big G claims he hates bad language and abuse and yet happily engages in it himself or cheers on posters who do it.
The whole point of this scheme is to encourage people (Bad People, like the Archbishop of Canterbury and Prince Charles) to speak up against it. Becuase then, the government and its fellow travellers get to sound tough but realistic; "well, what would you do, then?"
It's a joke scheme, that simply doesn't have the numerical oomph behind it to work on its stated terms, but it will take time for the failure to happen. But that's the government's comfort zone- it's the same logic by which you-know-what will fail on the timescale of current voters lifetimes, everyone knows that really, which is why Sweden etc aren't running through the door we opened. But it's not yet politic to say that.
As someone who wants this government to fail so that a sane centre-right can grow out of the ashes, I think the best strategy is to let them get on with it. The sooner the failure comes, the more unambiguous that failure is, the less they can claim to have been stabbed in the back, the better. (See the whinging by frustrated Corbynites here and elsewhere). The trouble is that real people will get hurt as a result.
You are obviously new here if you think the discourse between @ HYUFD and I stated yesterday, we have been in disagreement for years and to be fair he gives as much as he gets
Widdecombe on R4's religious discussion programme this morning giving the UKIP Christian view, we must stop the evil people smugglers and no one's come up with an alternative, ie the same old cack that the BJ Party spouts.
GardenWalker it seems now joined the PB thought police for which any opinion to the right of David Cameron's is now beyond the pale
Against that he's lectured engineers on the qualifications needed for their profession, university lecturers on the hierarchy of degrees, a number of teachers on how pay is awarded, me on the process for writing academic history, and all of us on points of geography that he clearly doesn't get - e.g. confusing the Persian Gulf and the Red Sea.
And every time, even when it has been repeatedly demonstrated to him that he's wrong, he refuses to accept it and becomes abusive. Which is what the criticism was all about yesterday.
Now there's nothing wrong in being ignorant of these things. Nobody can know everything. But if you are shown to be wrong, by an expert, you should accept instruction and change your views. As most of us do on this forum, which is why it's so informative and pleasant to be in.
Hyufd is more like Cummings or Gove, in that if the facts disagree with his views, the facts are wrong.
Which is unfortunate because in many key ways he is a very valuable poster. His knowledge of polling is unrivalled and he does provide a key insight into the tribal Tory right.
There will be wider, co-ordinated strikes. Which may be more popular than train drivers.
If anyone thinks that can be solved by agency workers needs to explain 110k vacancies in the NHS alone.
Of course it’s no better in the US, but for years and years we laughed at how shit American politics was and how better off we were in sensible, doughy Britain.
No longer.
I certainly don't pretend to be an expert, this is a forum for political argument and discussion if anything not an academic seminar.
Thanks for your final sentence
Actually, I think the problem is in your framing, in particular, 'non-Tories'. It seems most posters on here get called a 'Tory' at some point or another (sometimes ludicrously) as a form of silly insult.
Hence my "We are all PB Tories now, comrade!" line.
I'm often called a 'Tory', even though I haven't voted for them since 2015-7 or so. There's lots of agreement in the middle ground on many points, and the arguments are over detail. Yet anyone veering slightly large-C Conservative on an issue gets immediately put into the 'Tory' camp.
To be frank, I put you in the “Tory” camp.
Perhaps that’s unfair, but I see you as exceedingly “small c”.
That doesn’t invalidate anything you say, but I miss broadly progressive views.
That in itself is both aggressive and impolite. Effectively, you are saying you know better than the rest of us.
I don't know why I'm bothering to say this, TBF, because lots of us have said it to you lots of times and you never listen.
YouGov number generator system could throw up anything, but shouldn’t be allowed to stand considering their next poll will put Labour six ahead again.
As explained yesterday, both the Opinium Mechanism and the media narrative will grow the next Opinium Lab lead by +1 or 2.
Despite the Tories being on 34% in the latest poll you can count the number of Boris loyalist Tories on here on one hand and that is including me in them!
That’s just my instinct.
It may be an exogenous force; the weird stasis in party politics means we go round and round in circles. We are repeating the same arguments over and over; this didn’t use to be the case.
"As a result, in general, while imperial
units can be used alongside metric units, the imperial markings must be no larger or no more prominent than the metric ones."
Absolute non-issue.
It's a good job the country doesn't have any real issues to solve, eh?
My problem with @CorrectHorseBattery this morning was his foul and abusive language directed personally at me. but also his accusation that at times our intense interactions are bullying and shouting which is more than ridiculous as it could be applied across the forum and is a form of cancel culture
https://twitter.com/YouGov/status/1533822102092095490?s=20&t=4ZxVVAOtVneD7Fz4fUleoA
https://twitter.com/YouGov/status/1533813344414703617?s=20&t=4ZxVVAOtVneD7Fz4fUleoA
I do agree though - I don't see much hope of a way back to what I would consider to be civilised debate. Teesside increasingly felt like a hate pit and I didn't see much sign of elsewhere being better. So we left for Scotland. Where we're insulated from much of it.
Actually, what I mean is that there aren’t enough *progressive* voices, and those that we do have are often driven off.
Nonsense. In almost all the gains its all about the collapse of the Labour vote. Cons added between 1 and 4000 in most, Labour lost several thousand in all of them (many to Farage and co). Theres your red wall battle, do the missing labour voters come home? Or is BXP the new UKIP 2015 gateway drug? If they go back to Labour then so do the seats in large part
But that is far from being a 'Tory'. Which is my point.
Also, small-c conservative does not mean unprogressive. It may mean people want to be more careful about change, though (hence evolution rather than revolution).
I see myself as fiscally right-wing (although I think the tax burden should increase, as I've said many times passim), and socially I'm fairly liberal. That makes me much more at home with Blair's Labour Party, or Cameron's Conservatives, than it does Corbyn's Labour Party or Johnson's Conservatives.
I do hope they enjoy my responses...
if there are people serious about their career taking them to the party leadership they will now prefer to wait (Portillo and David Milliband Style) till after Boris has to go after losing eighty seat majority, for their time to take over, rather like with Major it soon now moves into the territory of the next election so contests put on hold. Who wants the last fag end year of this car crash and election defeat on their CV, get real.
How about big dog finds 66 chairpersons to endorse him? Touché as Mogg would say 😂
Or maybe, and here’s a very plausible one I don’t think anyone has raised yet. There’s another vonc and Boris loses by one, so can’t stand can he? Think again PB, because you know MoonRabbit is right again 😁
You think Boris loses VONC and it’s all over? With 60% of members demanding he is in the leadership ballot? If all these rules can be fiddled with then let me offer the change where Boris is allowed to stand, and he wins, doesn’t he, in the membership vote. Who stands against him, serious players from cabinet? Who wants the last fag end year of this car crash and election defeat on their CV, when in year they are the saviour. The right, the ERG? Nope. They have him by the balls now, their policies are now the governments policy. It will be Hunt v Boris part 2 and Boris will win with more than 60%.
He is the leader till he stands down, and Prime Minister not mere LOTO - he is Prime Minister till a General Election proves otherwise, did you really think you could get rid of him?
Exactly where am I calling it wrong?