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Is there a face-saving way Johnson can step aside? – politicalbetting.com

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Comments

  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,431
    Stokes out…… no it’s a no-ball!
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 21,298
    On pubs, they are one of the best things about Britain.

    If I were dictator, I would not charge independent ones corporation tax and find other ways of subsidising them.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,279
    edited June 2022

    Leon said:

    If you are a British citizen that hates Brexit so much you literally *become German* then I suggest you weren’t really British in the first place

    https://www.theguardian.com/artanddesign/2022/jun/04/antony-gormley-to-become-german-citizen-due-to-tragedy-of-brexit

    This comment is the sort of bigoted nonsense I was referring to the other day but which legions of posters jumped in to tell me didn’t exist.
    Ah, the New Zealander living in New York has arrived to give us his considered opinion on Brexit Britain. Again.
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 21,298
    edited June 2022
    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    If you are a British citizen that hates Brexit so much you literally *become German* then I suggest you weren’t really British in the first place

    https://www.theguardian.com/artanddesign/2022/jun/04/antony-gormley-to-become-german-citizen-due-to-tragedy-of-brexit

    This comment is the sort of bigoted nonsense I was referring to the other day but which legions of posters jumped in to tell me didn’t exist.
    Ah, the New Zealander living in New York has arrived to give us his considered opinion on Britain. Again,
    You keep repeating that but it only serves to remind us of your rather restrictive definition of Britishness.

    It appears from upthread you might be drunk, as opposed to simply presenting as a rancid old racist.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,279
    edited June 2022
    stodge said:

    Leon said:


    And yet, if that were true, we’d be seeing polling as happened to Major’s government in the mid 90s, with Blair’s Labour 20 points ahead

    We’re not seeing that. What we see is a standard mid term poll lead for an opposition facing a tired government

    I hate to drop the B-bomb word so liberally, but I suggest a lot of this anger at Boris and the Tories is actually sublimated Remoaner angst and loathing of Leaver Boris, but this time channeled through a new rage at his partying frivolity

    I’m not defending him, btw, it IS time for him to eff off

    As we saw in Australia, it may not be the main opposition which kills the Conservatives next time but the leeching of votes to minor parties (LDs, Greens, Independents).

    There's also the truth many people will vote against the Conservatives next time and it will be a question of where and how that anti-Conservative vote is maximised.
    Yes, I can easily see that happening. And dumping Boris may not be enough to stop this. I sense the British public are just BORED of the Tory party (leaving aside Partygate and Boris and Brexit)

    I know I am bored of them
  • OllyTOllyT Posts: 5,006
    edited June 2022

    OllyT said:

    Roger said:

    dixiedean said:

    Open ridicule, booing and laughter for Andrew Griffith on Any Answers.
    This is on the Isle of Wight, too.

    It's many years sincce hings were like this. The hatred for Johnson (and anyone prepared to speak up for him) is visceral. Time to put your house on the Tories losing both by elections. The Tories and Johnson are f*cked!
    Again people, why would you put ANY money on these by-elections until there is less than a day to go?

    We could easily be into the election of a new PM by polling day. And the way events are moving, that likelihood gets greater as every day passes.

    If Boris is gone, the LibDems fox will have been shot in T&H. (I expect the Tories to still lose Wakefield, pretty much regardless of circumstances - but not enough to back it regardless of events.)
    But isn't the skill of betting to try to second guess "events"? If you believe that Johnson will be gone /on his way out by June 23 then the value bet is on a Tory hold in T&H. If you wait till all the unknowns are known then you are unlikely to ever make a killing. .
    Happy with a modest win rather than a "killing".

    I'll make the big money on Prime Minister Penny Mordaunt... 😉
    You might be right with Morduant. I suspect that the Tory MPs will continue to dither up to the by-elections and in those circumstances an LD win is almost nailed on. If it looks as though they may move earlier a punt on a Tory hold would look attractive. I'll make my mind up on Monday!
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,279

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    If you are a British citizen that hates Brexit so much you literally *become German* then I suggest you weren’t really British in the first place

    https://www.theguardian.com/artanddesign/2022/jun/04/antony-gormley-to-become-german-citizen-due-to-tragedy-of-brexit

    This comment is the sort of bigoted nonsense I was referring to the other day but which legions of posters jumped in to tell me didn’t exist.
    Ah, the New Zealander living in New York has arrived to give us his considered opinion on Britain. Again,
    You keep repeating that but it only serves to remind us of your rather restrictive definition of Britishness.

    It appears from upthread you might be drunk, as opposed to simply presenting as a rancid old racist.
    Is it now racist to point out that someone is from New Zealand? Or that they reside in the USA?

  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,862
    Leon said:

    stodge said:

    Leon said:


    And yet, if that were true, we’d be seeing polling as happened to Major’s government in the mid 90s, with Blair’s Labour 20 points ahead

    We’re not seeing that. What we see is a standard mid term poll lead for an opposition facing a tired government

    I hate to drop the B-bomb word so liberally, but I suggest a lot of this anger at Boris and the Tories is actually sublimated Remoaner angst and loathing of Leaver Boris, but this time channeled through a new rage at his partying frivolity

    I’m not defending him, btw, it IS time for him to eff off

    As we saw in Australia, it may not be the main opposition which kills the Conservatives next time but the leeching of votes to minor parties (LDs, Greens, Independents).

    There's also the truth many people will vote against the Conservatives next time and it will be a question of where and how that anti-Conservative vote is maximised.
    Yes, I can easily see that happening. And dumping Boris may not be enough to stop this. I sense the British public are just BORED of the Tory party (leaving aside Partygate and Boris and Brexit)

    I know I am bored of them
    It’s bored with, not of.

    If only you had more experience of using written English, you’d have known that already.
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 17,220

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    dixiedean said:

    dixiedean said:

    Open ridicule, booing and laughter for Andrew Griffith on Any Answers.
    This is on the Isle of Wight, too.

    Yes, though pedantically you'll probably find that Any Answers is on after Any Questions, rather than before.
    Indeed.
    The audience is ferociously hostile to the government. To a degree I've never heard before. It's growing, not fading away.

    And yet, if that were true, we’d be seeing polling as happened to Major’s government in the mid 90s, with Blair’s Labour 20 points ahead

    We’re not seeing that. What we see is a standard mid term poll lead for an opposition facing a tired government

    I hate to drop the B-bomb word so liberally, but I suggest a lot of this anger at Boris and the Tories is actually sublimated Remoaner angst and loathing of Leaver Boris, but this time channeled through a new rage at his partying frivolity

    I’m not defending him, btw, it IS time for him to eff off
    I don't think that is true. Johnson is seen now less as an evil enemy - which is how many opponents saw Thatcher, Major and Blair - and more as a figure of utter derision and scorn. And that is an impression that has spread beyond those who just naturally oppose him and on to many who would normally support a Conservative government. Yes it may be wishful thinking on my part but I simply see no way back when he has become so derided.
    Nah

    Look at the people who are most performatively angered by his partying and most hysterically eager to see him go. They are nearly all Remoaners

    And maybe they should have their slaughtered lamb. Maybe they will cease being so fruitlessly angry once he has gone

    I doubt it - look at @Scott_xP - but we can hope
    I don't think that is anywhere near true. A lot of those who voted Leave on here are vocal critics of Johnson. Some long term like me and others more recent. Within my circle of leave voting friends there is no one willing to defend Johnson these days.

    Yes those who have always hated him because of Brexit will revel in his downfall but there are huge numbers of Leave supporters who will also be glad to see the back of him. A dislike of hypocrisy and dishonesty crosses all these political divides.
    But there are still some who, when push comes to shove, are willing to tolerate Johnson because he gave them victories in 2016 and 2019. And there are others who, whilst they obviously can't accept Johnson's behaviour, can't bring themselves to act against him.
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 21,298
    edited June 2022
    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    If you are a British citizen that hates Brexit so much you literally *become German* then I suggest you weren’t really British in the first place

    https://www.theguardian.com/artanddesign/2022/jun/04/antony-gormley-to-become-german-citizen-due-to-tragedy-of-brexit

    This comment is the sort of bigoted nonsense I was referring to the other day but which legions of posters jumped in to tell me didn’t exist.
    Ah, the New Zealander living in New York has arrived to give us his considered opinion on Britain. Again,
    You keep repeating that but it only serves to remind us of your rather restrictive definition of Britishness.

    It appears from upthread you might be drunk, as opposed to simply presenting as a rancid old racist.
    Is it now racist to point out that someone is from New Zealand? Or that they reside in the USA?

    You appear or have some kind of blood and soil notion of nationality.

    And let’s not even go into the repeated Islamophobic ranting which even a succession of identity changes cannot obscure.
  • MoonRabbitMoonRabbit Posts: 13,506

    Leon said:

    dixiedean said:

    dixiedean said:

    Open ridicule, booing and laughter for Andrew Griffith on Any Answers.
    This is on the Isle of Wight, too.

    Yes, though pedantically you'll probably find that Any Answers is on after Any Questions, rather than before.
    Indeed.
    The audience is ferociously hostile to the government. To a degree I've never heard before. It's growing, not fading away.

    And yet, if that were true, we’d be seeing polling as happened to Major’s government in the mid 90s, with Blair’s Labour 20 points ahead

    We’re not seeing that. What we see is a standard mid term poll lead for an opposition facing a tired government

    I hate to drop the B-bomb word so liberally, but I suggest a lot of this anger at Boris and the Tories is actually sublimated Remoaner angst and loathing of Leaver Boris, but this time channeled through a new rage at his partying frivolity

    I’m not defending him, btw, it IS time for him to eff off
    Is it not the case, Libdem, snp, green, others in the polling these days, the fact it’s not so 2 party in polling and voting these days the first passed post system disguises, that the modern equivalent these days, of just sneaking into double digits, is just as potent as something bigger in the past?

    Sorry to be boring, but comparing polls these days with what was acceptable in the 80’s might be a bit of a naff basis for your argument?
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dOV5WXISM24
    How Harris become so big is a mystery to me, there’s nothing of his I have liked much. Even as a dance tune this is just so plonk plonk.

    Dancer catches the eye though - she is the same one in his early videos only in different wigs?
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,279
    IanB2 said:

    Leon said:

    stodge said:

    Leon said:


    And yet, if that were true, we’d be seeing polling as happened to Major’s government in the mid 90s, with Blair’s Labour 20 points ahead

    We’re not seeing that. What we see is a standard mid term poll lead for an opposition facing a tired government

    I hate to drop the B-bomb word so liberally, but I suggest a lot of this anger at Boris and the Tories is actually sublimated Remoaner angst and loathing of Leaver Boris, but this time channeled through a new rage at his partying frivolity

    I’m not defending him, btw, it IS time for him to eff off

    As we saw in Australia, it may not be the main opposition which kills the Conservatives next time but the leeching of votes to minor parties (LDs, Greens, Independents).

    There's also the truth many people will vote against the Conservatives next time and it will be a question of where and how that anti-Conservative vote is maximised.
    Yes, I can easily see that happening. And dumping Boris may not be enough to stop this. I sense the British public are just BORED of the Tory party (leaving aside Partygate and Boris and Brexit)

    I know I am bored of them
    It’s bored with, not of.

    If only you had more experience of using written English, you’d have known that already.
    As I have constantly told you, I am but a humble knapper of erotic flints. You should therefore not be surprised if I do not show the verbal flair of, say, a writer of international bestsellers
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,862
    Leon said:

    IanB2 said:

    Leon said:

    stodge said:

    Leon said:


    And yet, if that were true, we’d be seeing polling as happened to Major’s government in the mid 90s, with Blair’s Labour 20 points ahead

    We’re not seeing that. What we see is a standard mid term poll lead for an opposition facing a tired government

    I hate to drop the B-bomb word so liberally, but I suggest a lot of this anger at Boris and the Tories is actually sublimated Remoaner angst and loathing of Leaver Boris, but this time channeled through a new rage at his partying frivolity

    I’m not defending him, btw, it IS time for him to eff off

    As we saw in Australia, it may not be the main opposition which kills the Conservatives next time but the leeching of votes to minor parties (LDs, Greens, Independents).

    There's also the truth many people will vote against the Conservatives next time and it will be a question of where and how that anti-Conservative vote is maximised.
    Yes, I can easily see that happening. And dumping Boris may not be enough to stop this. I sense the British public are just BORED of the Tory party (leaving aside Partygate and Boris and Brexit)

    I know I am bored of them
    It’s bored with, not of.

    If only you had more experience of using written English, you’d have known that already.
    As I have constantly told you, I am but a humble knapper of erotic flints. You should therefore not be surprised if I do not show the verbal flair of, say, a writer of international bestsellers
    The mystery is why you do not even show the written (“verbal” is another mistake) flair of a writer of trashy bus station fiction?

    I’m guessing the suggestion above that you’re already on the bottle is sadly on the money.
  • ApplicantApplicant Posts: 3,379
    IanB2 said:

    Leon said:

    stodge said:

    Leon said:


    And yet, if that were true, we’d be seeing polling as happened to Major’s government in the mid 90s, with Blair’s Labour 20 points ahead

    We’re not seeing that. What we see is a standard mid term poll lead for an opposition facing a tired government

    I hate to drop the B-bomb word so liberally, but I suggest a lot of this anger at Boris and the Tories is actually sublimated Remoaner angst and loathing of Leaver Boris, but this time channeled through a new rage at his partying frivolity

    I’m not defending him, btw, it IS time for him to eff off

    As we saw in Australia, it may not be the main opposition which kills the Conservatives next time but the leeching of votes to minor parties (LDs, Greens, Independents).

    There's also the truth many people will vote against the Conservatives next time and it will be a question of where and how that anti-Conservative vote is maximised.
    Yes, I can easily see that happening. And dumping Boris may not be enough to stop this. I sense the British public are just BORED of the Tory party (leaving aside Partygate and Boris and Brexit)

    I know I am bored of them
    It’s bored with, not of.

    If only you had more experience of using written English, you’d have known that already.
    https://www.lexico.com/grammar/bored-by-of-or-with

    the Oxford English Corpus contains almost twice as many instances of bored of than bored by. It represents a perfectly logical development of the language, and was probably formed on the pattern of expressions such as tired of or weary of.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,279

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    If you are a British citizen that hates Brexit so much you literally *become German* then I suggest you weren’t really British in the first place

    https://www.theguardian.com/artanddesign/2022/jun/04/antony-gormley-to-become-german-citizen-due-to-tragedy-of-brexit

    This comment is the sort of bigoted nonsense I was referring to the other day but which legions of posters jumped in to tell me didn’t exist.
    Ah, the New Zealander living in New York has arrived to give us his considered opinion on Britain. Again,
    You keep repeating that but it only serves to remind us of your rather restrictive definition of Britishness.

    It appears from upthread you might be drunk, as opposed to simply presenting as a rancid old racist.
    Is it now racist to point out that someone is from New Zealand? Or that they reside in the USA?

    You appear or have some kind of blood and soil notion of nationality.

    And let’s not even go into the repeated Islamophobic ranting which even a succession of identity changes cannot obscure.
    Please give us more of your marvellous opinions about a country to which you do not belong, where do you not live, and to which you have no loyalty, and to which you have no intention of returning
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 17,220
    Leon said:

    stodge said:

    Leon said:


    And yet, if that were true, we’d be seeing polling as happened to Major’s government in the mid 90s, with Blair’s Labour 20 points ahead

    We’re not seeing that. What we see is a standard mid term poll lead for an opposition facing a tired government

    I hate to drop the B-bomb word so liberally, but I suggest a lot of this anger at Boris and the Tories is actually sublimated Remoaner angst and loathing of Leaver Boris, but this time channeled through a new rage at his partying frivolity

    I’m not defending him, btw, it IS time for him to eff off

    As we saw in Australia, it may not be the main opposition which kills the Conservatives next time but the leeching of votes to minor parties (LDs, Greens, Independents).

    There's also the truth many people will vote against the Conservatives next time and it will be a question of where and how that anti-Conservative vote is maximised.
    Yes, I can easily see that happening. And dumping Boris may not be enough to stop this. I sense the British public are just BORED of the Tory party (leaving aside Partygate and Boris and Brexit)

    I know I am bored of them
    And we have 2.5 years more of this, because if they are heading for defeat there's no reason to go early.

    If the situation is boredom (and there's a big chunk of that) then that's bad for the country, but the release of built-up anger could be spectacular when the dam breaks.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,191

    Stokes out…… no it’s a no-ball!

    If De Grandhomme had missed the stumps, Stokes would likely have been run out by Blundell
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,279
    IanB2 said:

    Leon said:

    IanB2 said:

    Leon said:

    stodge said:

    Leon said:


    And yet, if that were true, we’d be seeing polling as happened to Major’s government in the mid 90s, with Blair’s Labour 20 points ahead

    We’re not seeing that. What we see is a standard mid term poll lead for an opposition facing a tired government

    I hate to drop the B-bomb word so liberally, but I suggest a lot of this anger at Boris and the Tories is actually sublimated Remoaner angst and loathing of Leaver Boris, but this time channeled through a new rage at his partying frivolity

    I’m not defending him, btw, it IS time for him to eff off

    As we saw in Australia, it may not be the main opposition which kills the Conservatives next time but the leeching of votes to minor parties (LDs, Greens, Independents).

    There's also the truth many people will vote against the Conservatives next time and it will be a question of where and how that anti-Conservative vote is maximised.
    Yes, I can easily see that happening. And dumping Boris may not be enough to stop this. I sense the British public are just BORED of the Tory party (leaving aside Partygate and Boris and Brexit)

    I know I am bored of them
    It’s bored with, not of.

    If only you had more experience of using written English, you’d have known that already.
    As I have constantly told you, I am but a humble knapper of erotic flints. You should therefore not be surprised if I do not show the verbal flair of, say, a writer of international bestsellers
    The mystery is why you do not even show the written (“verbal” is another mistake) flair of a writer of trashy bus station fiction?

    I’m guessing the suggestion above that you’re already on the bottle is sadly on the money.
    The correction of a commenter’s grammar, particularly in this fastidious way, is the mark of a person bereft of an argument, yet with one of those weird pulsing veins in their temple, born of anger

    Relax, my friend! You will have an aneurysm
  • MoonRabbitMoonRabbit Posts: 13,506
    stodge said:

    stodge said:


    Two thoughts - he must have known the day after the first party this would come back to bite him in the behind sooner or later. Both he and Starmer (to an extent) seem unwilling to comprehend whatever they think they will get away with they can't and won't. Johnson may try to twist the argument a little and I do accept he doesn't so much work at home as live in the office but that's not the point.

    The second is maybe people are just tired and bored of him and nothing he does or says makes any difference any more. Compared with some Prime Ministers, Johnson is always in sight, always there - during Covid he was on our tv screens almost every night. We've often said on here leaders have a shelf life - that's because we see them so much we grow tired of them and want someone else. In Johnson's case, expedience has brought that forward.

    He's "done" Brexit, there's no real appetite for his re-hashed half-baked Thatcherism and his comedic schtick, which would be ideal for optimistic times, just doesn't fit with the current zeitgeist.

    You putting it down to the public already thinking the grass is greener on the other side? 🤔

    What I think this is, errors that were avoidable if avoided would have avoided removal. Boris was in a pretty strong position but threw it away himself, quite simply by taking the piss. You can’t take the piss out of voters to that degree and come back from it. Grass greener on the other side? As counterfactual Tony Blair says no to Bush, has nothing to do with the diabolical occupation of Iraq turned into - he could have remained popular enough to fight and win a fourth election 2009 - so I think same with Boris, without this mistake he could have remained popular enough to win the next election.

    The French election is very low key Stodge, isn’t this set of elections nearly as important as the presidential power, or is the check and counterbalance here a bit underestimated?
    I'm not sure that's what I'm suggesting at all.

    Had 9/11 not happened and there been no invasion of Iraq, yes, I agree 2005 would likely have been a third Labour landslide but Blair was always going to retire in 2007. Had he done so with his reputation largely undiminished, he's remain a significant political figure to this day.

    Whether in that instance Brown could have eked out a win over Cameron I'm uncertain as the global financial crash was still likely (might have been delayed slightly).

    Even if the Left-Green alliance (NUPES) outpolls Macron's party tomorrow the second round should see Ensemble come home with something close to a majority a the centre and centre-right voters shy away from a Melenchon Government. It's strange no one here is talking about the collapse of the French centre-right.

    Is there collapse of the French centre-right? Macron is centre right and you have him close to majority with the “vintage” centre right picking up something too.

    And if you are not suggesting what I suggestively suggested maybe you should suggest it - for I am right. If Boris is ousted, it would never have happened he hadn’t shredded his own popularity as it was!
  • JohnLilburneJohnLilburne Posts: 6,241
    IanB2 said:

    Leon said:

    IanB2 said:

    Leon said:

    stodge said:

    Leon said:


    And yet, if that were true, we’d be seeing polling as happened to Major’s government in the mid 90s, with Blair’s Labour 20 points ahead

    We’re not seeing that. What we see is a standard mid term poll lead for an opposition facing a tired government

    I hate to drop the B-bomb word so liberally, but I suggest a lot of this anger at Boris and the Tories is actually sublimated Remoaner angst and loathing of Leaver Boris, but this time channeled through a new rage at his partying frivolity

    I’m not defending him, btw, it IS time for him to eff off

    As we saw in Australia, it may not be the main opposition which kills the Conservatives next time but the leeching of votes to minor parties (LDs, Greens, Independents).

    There's also the truth many people will vote against the Conservatives next time and it will be a question of where and how that anti-Conservative vote is maximised.
    Yes, I can easily see that happening. And dumping Boris may not be enough to stop this. I sense the British public are just BORED of the Tory party (leaving aside Partygate and Boris and Brexit)

    I know I am bored of them
    It’s bored with, not of.

    If only you had more experience of using written English, you’d have known that already.
    As I have constantly told you, I am but a humble knapper of erotic flints. You should therefore not be surprised if I do not show the verbal flair of, say, a writer of international bestsellers
    The mystery is why you do not even show the written (“verbal” is another mistake) flair of a writer of trashy bus station fiction?

    I’m guessing the suggestion above that you’re already on the bottle is sadly on the money.
    Verbal relates to the use of words both written and oral.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,175
    edited June 2022
    Pulpstar said:

    Stokes out…… no it’s a no-ball!

    If De Grandhomme had missed the stumps, Stokes would likely have been run out by Blundell
    Run out or stumped?

    Oh, you can't be stumped off a no ball. Tricky one for the umpire.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,862
    Leon said:

    IanB2 said:

    Leon said:

    IanB2 said:

    Leon said:

    stodge said:

    Leon said:


    And yet, if that were true, we’d be seeing polling as happened to Major’s government in the mid 90s, with Blair’s Labour 20 points ahead

    We’re not seeing that. What we see is a standard mid term poll lead for an opposition facing a tired government

    I hate to drop the B-bomb word so liberally, but I suggest a lot of this anger at Boris and the Tories is actually sublimated Remoaner angst and loathing of Leaver Boris, but this time channeled through a new rage at his partying frivolity

    I’m not defending him, btw, it IS time for him to eff off

    As we saw in Australia, it may not be the main opposition which kills the Conservatives next time but the leeching of votes to minor parties (LDs, Greens, Independents).

    There's also the truth many people will vote against the Conservatives next time and it will be a question of where and how that anti-Conservative vote is maximised.
    Yes, I can easily see that happening. And dumping Boris may not be enough to stop this. I sense the British public are just BORED of the Tory party (leaving aside Partygate and Boris and Brexit)

    I know I am bored of them
    It’s bored with, not of.

    If only you had more experience of using written English, you’d have known that already.
    As I have constantly told you, I am but a humble knapper of erotic flints. You should therefore not be surprised if I do not show the verbal flair of, say, a writer of international bestsellers
    The mystery is why you do not even show the written (“verbal” is another mistake) flair of a writer of trashy bus station fiction?

    I’m guessing the suggestion above that you’re already on the bottle is sadly on the money.
    The correction of a commenter’s grammar, particularly in this fastidious way, is the mark of a person bereft of an argument, yet with one of those weird pulsing veins in their temple, born of anger

    Relax, my friend! You will have an aneurysm
    Current alcohol use and intensity are significantly associated with intracranial aneurysm rupture.
  • pm215pm215 Posts: 1,133


    I learned recently that ‘nonce’ is an acronym. It comes from Wakefield Prison. For their own safety, child sex offenders aren’t allowed mix with the general prison population, so their cells were marked ‘Not on normal courtyard exercise’.

    Every day’s a school day.

    Ah interesting. Nonce is used in cryptography as the name for a random string that is used as a one-off so that both ends of the communication can see that they encrypt the nonce to the same value, using the encryption keys, which they don't have to exchange. Always a bit weird to put "nonce" into an http authentication header when you know the secondary British meaning for the word.
    I'm always a bit dubious of these acronym etymologies -- so often they turn out to have been made up after the fact. In this case the OED suggests "Origin unknown. Perhaps related to nance n. (see quot. 1984), or perhaps compare English regional nonse good-for-nothing fellow, recorded in Eng. Dial. Dict. Suppl. from Lincolnshire." The fact that the first cite spells it with two 's'es also seems to argue against the acronym theory: "1971 S. Houghton Current Prison Slang (MS notebk.) (O.E.D. Archive) 8 Nonse, sexual offender against children, pariahs in prison."

    The crypto usage is I think from the much older sense "for the time being, temporarily" which dates back to Middle and Old English.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,862

    IanB2 said:

    Leon said:

    IanB2 said:

    Leon said:

    stodge said:

    Leon said:


    And yet, if that were true, we’d be seeing polling as happened to Major’s government in the mid 90s, with Blair’s Labour 20 points ahead

    We’re not seeing that. What we see is a standard mid term poll lead for an opposition facing a tired government

    I hate to drop the B-bomb word so liberally, but I suggest a lot of this anger at Boris and the Tories is actually sublimated Remoaner angst and loathing of Leaver Boris, but this time channeled through a new rage at his partying frivolity

    I’m not defending him, btw, it IS time for him to eff off

    As we saw in Australia, it may not be the main opposition which kills the Conservatives next time but the leeching of votes to minor parties (LDs, Greens, Independents).

    There's also the truth many people will vote against the Conservatives next time and it will be a question of where and how that anti-Conservative vote is maximised.
    Yes, I can easily see that happening. And dumping Boris may not be enough to stop this. I sense the British public are just BORED of the Tory party (leaving aside Partygate and Boris and Brexit)

    I know I am bored of them
    It’s bored with, not of.

    If only you had more experience of using written English, you’d have known that already.
    As I have constantly told you, I am but a humble knapper of erotic flints. You should therefore not be surprised if I do not show the verbal flair of, say, a writer of international bestsellers
    The mystery is why you do not even show the written (“verbal” is another mistake) flair of a writer of trashy bus station fiction?

    I’m guessing the suggestion above that you’re already on the bottle is sadly on the money.
    Verbal relates to the use of words both written and oral.
    OED: Expressed or conveyed by speech instead of writing; stated or delivered by word of mouth; oral.
  • StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 8,256
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Betting question - is there a market for the the number of votes against Johnson, if Grady gets the letters?

    My guess is that there will be double the number letters as votes against, as a floor. That is, if Grady gets 54 letters, it will be 110 votes against. Minimum.

    At least that. What HY and Dorries don't seem to get is that the momentum is building visibly day by day now. This wasn't "they need to act, they keep making excuses why they won't". This is people submitting letters and speaking in openly very critical terms each and every day.

    And that was before Parliament broke up for the Lets Boo Boris festival. Tory MPs - even lickspittle worms like Duguid - have gone home. And if he turns up to see his people in Fraserburgh today they aren't going to be saying "good old Boris". When fruitcakes and loonies like Desmond Swayne or Peter Bone go and meet people, they are going to have to be profoundly selective to only hear the "good old Boris" messages they insist are all people are saying.

    What they miss is that the more we are assured that everyone in Wellingborough is cheering the boss on, the more we know they are not. Its like their response to the cost of living crisis - deny, patronise, sneer - you can only tell people black is white for so long before they realise it isn't, and then start thinking you are delusional in still saying it is. That is the choice for Tory MPs.
    What you don't get is the momentum for change is driven by non Tories like you when only Tories get to decide who the PM is until the next general election. So any opinions of non Tories are irrelevant and the polling is clear most Tory voters and members want Johnson to stay.

    Fortunately you are about to find 54+ conservative mps are about to bring your hero crashing down to earth and they have the conservative party's reputation and future in their hands

    Each and every one of them are the real conservatives who will ultimately see your hero out of office

    They have my full support and are the path to me re-joining the party and campaigning to win the next GE

    You can always join RUK or whoever they are as you do seem suited to one another
    I have campaigned for Major, Hague, IDS, Howard, Cameron, May and Boris in my time, I support whoever the Tory leader is. I have never voted Labour at a general election unlike you either.

    However there is no guarantee removing Johnson gets a centrist PM, MPs might put Hunt or Sunak and Patel as the final 2 to members with members voting for Patel, so we get PM Priti and a vote on restoration of the death penalty and an ultra hard asylum policy. Who knows?
    You voted Plaid
    Not at a general election and only because there were no Tory candidates left to vote for on that town council ballot paper.

    You voted Labour at the 1997 and 2001 general elections
    Being a loyal little foot soldier is not something particularly praiseworthy
  • StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 8,256

    IshmaelZ said:

    valleyboy said:

    Scott_xP said:

    If BoZo gets booed at the Queen's Jubilee, imagine the reception he would get at her funeral.

    Tory MPs must do the right thing now...

    While I agree his mps must act, hopefully on monday, I do not agree he would be booed at HMQ funeral as it would be a very sombre occasion and would not be well received by the public

    There are times in life when something trumps politics, this would be one of them
    For once I agree, even I wouldn't boo Johnson at HM's funeral.
    Incidentally, I do worry that HM may not have long to go. Think she may have spent all her last energies on being around for the Jubilee.
    I am quite concerned just how ill she is, and certainly as we age mobility becomes a problem (as I can vouch for) but she is 96 and is looking increasingly frail and I am 100% certain she would not have wanted to miss the amount of celebrations she has if she was not suffering debilitating health issues
    There's usually a couple of years lag between having to go into a home, and final curtain though
    Sadly, there usually isn't actually; its usually a couple of months (median average)- and Her Majesty wouldn't go into a home, people do when they can't get the support they need at home anymore and she'd get all the support you'd find in a home brought into her home instead.
    12-15 months, although shortening with the move from residential care to nursing care
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 21,298
    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    If you are a British citizen that hates Brexit so much you literally *become German* then I suggest you weren’t really British in the first place

    https://www.theguardian.com/artanddesign/2022/jun/04/antony-gormley-to-become-german-citizen-due-to-tragedy-of-brexit

    This comment is the sort of bigoted nonsense I was referring to the other day but which legions of posters jumped in to tell me didn’t exist.
    Ah, the New Zealander living in New York has arrived to give us his considered opinion on Britain. Again,
    You keep repeating that but it only serves to remind us of your rather restrictive definition of Britishness.

    It appears from upthread you might be drunk, as opposed to simply presenting as a rancid old racist.
    Is it now racist to point out that someone is from New Zealand? Or that they reside in the USA?

    You appear or have some kind of blood and soil notion of nationality.

    And let’s not even go into the repeated Islamophobic ranting which even a succession of identity changes cannot obscure.
    Please give us more of your marvellous opinions about a country to which you do not belong, where do you not live, and to which you have no loyalty, and to which you have no intention of returning
    See this is the thing.

    “To which you have no loyalty”.

    I mean, what kind of fucktastic, antediluvian, chauvinistic claptrap is that?

    Sadly it’s what characterises the Brexit experience for many.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,279
    IanB2 said:

    Leon said:

    IanB2 said:

    Leon said:

    IanB2 said:

    Leon said:

    stodge said:

    Leon said:


    And yet, if that were true, we’d be seeing polling as happened to Major’s government in the mid 90s, with Blair’s Labour 20 points ahead

    We’re not seeing that. What we see is a standard mid term poll lead for an opposition facing a tired government

    I hate to drop the B-bomb word so liberally, but I suggest a lot of this anger at Boris and the Tories is actually sublimated Remoaner angst and loathing of Leaver Boris, but this time channeled through a new rage at his partying frivolity

    I’m not defending him, btw, it IS time for him to eff off

    As we saw in Australia, it may not be the main opposition which kills the Conservatives next time but the leeching of votes to minor parties (LDs, Greens, Independents).

    There's also the truth many people will vote against the Conservatives next time and it will be a question of where and how that anti-Conservative vote is maximised.
    Yes, I can easily see that happening. And dumping Boris may not be enough to stop this. I sense the British public are just BORED of the Tory party (leaving aside Partygate and Boris and Brexit)

    I know I am bored of them
    It’s bored with, not of.

    If only you had more experience of using written English, you’d have known that already.
    As I have constantly told you, I am but a humble knapper of erotic flints. You should therefore not be surprised if I do not show the verbal flair of, say, a writer of international bestsellers
    The mystery is why you do not even show the written (“verbal” is another mistake) flair of a writer of trashy bus station fiction?

    I’m guessing the suggestion above that you’re already on the bottle is sadly on the money.
    The correction of a commenter’s grammar, particularly in this fastidious way, is the mark of a person bereft of an argument, yet with one of those weird pulsing veins in their temple, born of anger

    Relax, my friend! You will have an aneurysm
    Current alcohol use and intensity are significantly associated with intracranial aneurysm rupture.
    Chillax, old boy. Have a glass with me, here in Radio Cafe, Leonidze Park, downtown Tbilisi. They have jazz piano later

    I recommend the shqeruli khachapuri


    https://www.radiocafe.ge/en
  • carnforthcarnforth Posts: 4,587
    edited June 2022
    Leon said:

    If you are a British citizen that hates Brexit so much you literally *become German* then I suggest you weren’t really British in the first place

    https://www.theguardian.com/artanddesign/2022/jun/04/antony-gormley-to-become-german-citizen-due-to-tragedy-of-brexit

    There was a bizarre interview in the Times a few weeks ago (which I cannot now find) with a famous author with a moneyed background. He was explaining he has moved to Jersey "because my wife and I thought Brexit might make Britain unliveable". He then went on to explain that the zero tax rate on his book royalties in Jersey meant he could give more money to his charities, and wasn't that nice?

    At no point did he seem to grasp that Jersey had never been in the EU, or that its future relations with the EU would be governed by the Brexit agreements. Or that the public might not care for his tax dodging. All in all I thought it was rather mean of the interviewer to let him be so unselfaware in public like that. The usually anti-brexit below-the-line commenters were not kind.
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    kle4 said:

    tlg86 said:

    Leon said:

    If you are a British citizen that hates Brexit so much you literally *become German* then I suggest you weren’t really British in the first place

    https://www.theguardian.com/artanddesign/2022/jun/04/antony-gormley-to-become-german-citizen-due-to-tragedy-of-brexit

    “I’m embarrassed about Brexit: it’s a practical disaster, a betrayal of my parents’ and grandparents’ sacrifice to make a Europe that was not going to be divided again. It’s a tragedy,”

    .
    I have no issue with people changing nationalities if they do not like what their present nation is doing, including over Brexit, but it does seem a bit much to suggest not being part of the EU is a betrayal of parents and grandparents as if everyone had been fighting explicitly for the intent of creating a supranational institution.

    Brexit was, in my view, a mistake that I contributed to, but there is a difference between 'divided to the point of war' and 'not all being part of the EU'.

    People also cannot seem to make up their minds if it was a betrayal of the older generation (even though the majority of those voted for it) or a betrayal of the younger generation. It could be they think it was both, but mentioning one only seems to suggest this person does not think that.
    Absolutely so

    He could have said “I don’t like Brexit, I disagree with it, I believe it is an error, but the British people were free to choose as they did. However I will now take up German citizenship, as it my right, so I can retain my European citizenship and my Freedom of Movement”

    But he didn’t say that. He’s gone way way further and is, in effect, saying Brexit was a sin or a crime - or both. Morally wrong. Should not have been allowed. Which is absurd. It was a choice to exit a quasi Federal union, as was our right under Article 50 of the fucking EU Constitution which they immorally forced on us, so fuck em. And him. I’m going to push over one off his stupid statues when and if I ever get home

    *knocks back more Tsinandali wine in his Georgian park*
    God Leon, give your liver a rest.

    I hardly drink, and i'm having to take liver tests atm.
    You clearly missed the Times article which said people that drink “two bottles of wine a day” are healthier, happier and longer lived than teetotallers and modest drinkers. I took it as a cue to up my consumption by about a quarter of a bottle a day, so as to hit the target
    The Times?? LOL! I'm guessing it wasn't peer-reviewed?
    Oooh, scientific method, I don't like the result so I'll say it's not peer reviewed

    I got a multi decade longitudinal study n=1 peer reviewed by me supporting these findings
  • JohnLilburneJohnLilburne Posts: 6,241
    IanB2 said:

    IanB2 said:

    Leon said:

    IanB2 said:

    Leon said:

    stodge said:

    Leon said:


    And yet, if that were true, we’d be seeing polling as happened to Major’s government in the mid 90s, with Blair’s Labour 20 points ahead

    We’re not seeing that. What we see is a standard mid term poll lead for an opposition facing a tired government

    I hate to drop the B-bomb word so liberally, but I suggest a lot of this anger at Boris and the Tories is actually sublimated Remoaner angst and loathing of Leaver Boris, but this time channeled through a new rage at his partying frivolity

    I’m not defending him, btw, it IS time for him to eff off

    As we saw in Australia, it may not be the main opposition which kills the Conservatives next time but the leeching of votes to minor parties (LDs, Greens, Independents).

    There's also the truth many people will vote against the Conservatives next time and it will be a question of where and how that anti-Conservative vote is maximised.
    Yes, I can easily see that happening. And dumping Boris may not be enough to stop this. I sense the British public are just BORED of the Tory party (leaving aside Partygate and Boris and Brexit)

    I know I am bored of them
    It’s bored with, not of.

    If only you had more experience of using written English, you’d have known that already.
    As I have constantly told you, I am but a humble knapper of erotic flints. You should therefore not be surprised if I do not show the verbal flair of, say, a writer of international bestsellers
    The mystery is why you do not even show the written (“verbal” is another mistake) flair of a writer of trashy bus station fiction?

    I’m guessing the suggestion above that you’re already on the bottle is sadly on the money.
    Verbal relates to the use of words both written and oral.
    OED: Expressed or conveyed by speech instead of writing; stated or delivered by word of mouth; oral.
    Indeed, mine says that too. However it is the second meaning, the first being "of or concerned with words". The meaning that Leon was using. As an example, verbal reasoning tests are usually written.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,862

    IanB2 said:

    IanB2 said:

    Leon said:

    IanB2 said:

    Leon said:

    stodge said:

    Leon said:


    And yet, if that were true, we’d be seeing polling as happened to Major’s government in the mid 90s, with Blair’s Labour 20 points ahead

    We’re not seeing that. What we see is a standard mid term poll lead for an opposition facing a tired government

    I hate to drop the B-bomb word so liberally, but I suggest a lot of this anger at Boris and the Tories is actually sublimated Remoaner angst and loathing of Leaver Boris, but this time channeled through a new rage at his partying frivolity

    I’m not defending him, btw, it IS time for him to eff off

    As we saw in Australia, it may not be the main opposition which kills the Conservatives next time but the leeching of votes to minor parties (LDs, Greens, Independents).

    There's also the truth many people will vote against the Conservatives next time and it will be a question of where and how that anti-Conservative vote is maximised.
    Yes, I can easily see that happening. And dumping Boris may not be enough to stop this. I sense the British public are just BORED of the Tory party (leaving aside Partygate and Boris and Brexit)

    I know I am bored of them
    It’s bored with, not of.

    If only you had more experience of using written English, you’d have known that already.
    As I have constantly told you, I am but a humble knapper of erotic flints. You should therefore not be surprised if I do not show the verbal flair of, say, a writer of international bestsellers
    The mystery is why you do not even show the written (“verbal” is another mistake) flair of a writer of trashy bus station fiction?

    I’m guessing the suggestion above that you’re already on the bottle is sadly on the money.
    Verbal relates to the use of words both written and oral.
    OED: Expressed or conveyed by speech instead of writing; stated or delivered by word of mouth; oral.
    Indeed, mine says that too. However it is the second meaning, the first being "of or concerned with words". The meaning that Leon was using. As an example, verbal reasoning tests are usually written.
    Because the actual reasoning goes on in your head.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,329
    Carnyx said:

    Leon said:

    If you are a British citizen that hates Brexit so much you literally *become German* then I suggest you weren’t really British in the first place

    https://www.theguardian.com/artanddesign/2022/jun/04/antony-gormley-to-become-german-citizen-due-to-tragedy-of-brexit

    I believe he was actually half German anyway, so that issue does not arise.
    They forget boris,s dad is a frenchie now
  • MoonRabbitMoonRabbit Posts: 13,506

    Leon said:

    dixiedean said:

    dixiedean said:

    Open ridicule, booing and laughter for Andrew Griffith on Any Answers.
    This is on the Isle of Wight, too.

    Yes, though pedantically you'll probably find that Any Answers is on after Any Questions, rather than before.
    Indeed.
    The audience is ferociously hostile to the government. To a degree I've never heard before. It's growing, not fading away.

    And yet, if that were true, we’d be seeing polling as happened to Major’s government in the mid 90s, with Blair’s Labour 20 points ahead

    We’re not seeing that. What we see is a standard mid term poll lead for an opposition facing a tired government

    I hate to drop the B-bomb word so liberally, but I suggest a lot of this anger at Boris and the Tories is actually sublimated Remoaner angst and loathing of Leaver Boris, but this time channeled through a new rage at his partying frivolity

    I’m not defending him, btw, it IS time for him to eff off
    Is it not the case, Libdem, snp, green, others in the polling these days, the fact it’s not so 2 party in polling and voting these days the first passed post system disguises, that the modern equivalent these days, of just sneaking into double digits, is just as potent as something bigger in the past?

    Sorry to be boring, but comparing polls these days with what was acceptable in the 80’s might be a bit of a naff basis for your argument?
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dOV5WXISM24
    How Harris become so big is a mystery to me, there’s nothing of his I have liked much. Even as a dance tune this is just so plonk plonk.

    Dancer catches the eye though - she is the same one in his early videos only in different wigs?
    Would you like to try it with me, Sunil?

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YbuFLUJ89Kw
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,262
    stodge said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Three German opinion polls now putting the lead governing party in 3rd place.

    https://www.wahlrecht.de/umfragen/

    The problem for the Union is the current coalition still enjoys around 50% support. Merz's hope must be for the Greens to look like the leading party at the next election which might mean Lindner switches to the Union. The problem is FDP support is falling and the Green-SPD option leads the CDU-CSU-FDP option (43-36 with Kantar).

    The Greens have had a "good" war compared to Scholz and the SPD and it may well be the Greens will be the leading party in the next German Government.
    The problem, I think for the SPD, is that they have found a policy - Ukraine - where the devotees of East Politics would rather destroy themselves, their party… just about anything, rather than go the opposite way.

    They believe, to the core of their souls, that rapprochement with Russia is The Only Moral Policy.

    It reminds me of another political debate - the name of that eludes me, though.
  • StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 8,256

    kle4 said:

    Emmanuel Macron, the French president, said it is vital that Russia is not humiliated so that when the fighting stops in Ukraine a diplomatic solution can be found.

    Telegraph live blog

    It doesn't make any sense though. Even after all this fighting at some point the diplomats will get involved, but anything that forces them to halt their invasion will be seen as humiliating to Russia. It isn't possible to not humiliate them in such a way, for anything other than achieving total victory.

    Plus, let's be real, even diplomatic solutions are not really merely diplomatic solutions. Say the solution is official autonomy for Donbas but Russia (officially) pulls back - unlikely, but for sake of argument - that would have been achieved by war.

    So not humiliating Russia cannot be the goal, since sitting down with Ukraine would be humilating (Ukriane is not a real country after all). So I assume he is using code to mean 'Russia will need to get something out of this', which would be a more honest and direct point.
    God knows what the french are thinking. I assume this isn't just Macron, but the french foreign policy establishment's view. Maybe some kind of whacky ideal about France being some kind of balance between Russia and USA?
    They view Russia as part of a European power bloc to rival the US and China
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,262
    edited June 2022

    kle4 said:

    Emmanuel Macron, the French president, said it is vital that Russia is not humiliated so that when the fighting stops in Ukraine a diplomatic solution can be found.

    Telegraph live blog

    It doesn't make any sense though. Even after all this fighting at some point the diplomats will get involved, but anything that forces them to halt their invasion will be seen as humiliating to Russia. It isn't possible to not humiliate them in such a way, for anything other than achieving total victory.

    Plus, let's be real, even diplomatic solutions are not really merely diplomatic solutions. Say the solution is official autonomy for Donbas but Russia (officially) pulls back - unlikely, but for sake of argument - that would have been achieved by war.

    So not humiliating Russia cannot be the goal, since sitting down with Ukraine would be humilating (Ukriane is not a real country after all). So I assume he is using code to mean 'Russia will need to get something out of this', which would be a more honest and direct point.
    God knows what the french are thinking. I assume this isn't just Macron, but the french foreign policy establishment's view. Maybe some kind of whacky ideal about France being some kind of balance between Russia and USA?
    They view Russia as part of a European power bloc to rival the US and China
    Europe from the Atlantic to the Urals. As some chap said….

    EDIT - some will be asking about Ukraine joining Europe. Already they see much of Eastern Europe as not willing to follow the Franco-German lead. Ukraine, if it comes out of this war vaguely intact, has the resources and potential to outstrip France. Eventually.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,329
    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    kle4 said:

    tlg86 said:

    Leon said:

    If you are a British citizen that hates Brexit so much you literally *become German* then I suggest you weren’t really British in the first place

    https://www.theguardian.com/artanddesign/2022/jun/04/antony-gormley-to-become-german-citizen-due-to-tragedy-of-brexit

    “I’m embarrassed about Brexit: it’s a practical disaster, a betrayal of my parents’ and grandparents’ sacrifice to make a Europe that was not going to be divided again. It’s a tragedy,”

    .
    I have no issue with people changing nationalities if they do not like what their present nation is doing, including over Brexit, but it does seem a bit much to suggest not being part of the EU is a betrayal of parents and grandparents as if everyone had been fighting explicitly for the intent of creating a supranational institution.

    Brexit was, in my view, a mistake that I contributed to, but there is a difference between 'divided to the point of war' and 'not all being part of the EU'.

    People also cannot seem to make up their minds if it was a betrayal of the older generation (even though the majority of those voted for it) or a betrayal of the younger generation. It could be they think it was both, but mentioning one only seems to suggest this person does not think that.
    Absolutely so

    He could have said “I don’t like Brexit, I disagree with it, I believe it is an error, but the British people were free to choose as they did. However I will now take up German citizenship, as it my right, so I can retain my European citizenship and my Freedom of Movement”

    But he didn’t say that. He’s gone way way further and is, in effect, saying Brexit was a sin or a crime - or both. Morally wrong. Should not have been allowed. Which is absurd. It was a choice to exit a quasi Federal union, as was our right under Article 50 of the fucking EU Constitution which they immorally forced on us, so fuck em. And him. I’m going to push over one off his stupid statues when and if I ever get home

    *knocks back more Tsinandali wine in his Georgian park*
    God Leon, give your liver a rest.

    I hardly drink, and i'm having to take liver tests atm.
    You clearly missed the Times article which said people that drink “two bottles of wine a day” are healthier, happier and longer lived than teetotallers and modest drinkers. I took it as a cue to up my consumption by about a quarter of a bottle a day, so as to hit the target
    That would explain me being as healthy as a butcher's dog
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,329
    IanB2 said:

    Leon said:

    IanB2 said:

    Leon said:

    stodge said:

    Leon said:


    And yet, if that were true, we’d be seeing polling as happened to Major’s government in the mid 90s, with Blair’s Labour 20 points ahead

    We’re not seeing that. What we see is a standard mid term poll lead for an opposition facing a tired government

    I hate to drop the B-bomb word so liberally, but I suggest a lot of this anger at Boris and the Tories is actually sublimated Remoaner angst and loathing of Leaver Boris, but this time channeled through a new rage at his partying frivolity

    I’m not defending him, btw, it IS time for him to eff off

    As we saw in Australia, it may not be the main opposition which kills the Conservatives next time but the leeching of votes to minor parties (LDs, Greens, Independents).

    There's also the truth many people will vote against the Conservatives next time and it will be a question of where and how that anti-Conservative vote is maximised.
    Yes, I can easily see that happening. And dumping Boris may not be enough to stop this. I sense the British public are just BORED of the Tory party (leaving aside Partygate and Boris and Brexit)

    I know I am bored of them
    It’s bored with, not of.

    If only you had more experience of using written English, you’d have known that already.
    As I have constantly told you, I am but a humble knapper of erotic flints. You should therefore not be surprised if I do not show the verbal flair of, say, a writer of international bestsellers
    The mystery is why you do not even show the written (“verbal” is another mistake) flair of a writer of trashy bus station fiction?

    I’m guessing the suggestion above that you’re already on the bottle is sadly on the money.
    Stay classy
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 10,061
    malcolmg said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    kle4 said:

    tlg86 said:

    Leon said:

    If you are a British citizen that hates Brexit so much you literally *become German* then I suggest you weren’t really British in the first place

    https://www.theguardian.com/artanddesign/2022/jun/04/antony-gormley-to-become-german-citizen-due-to-tragedy-of-brexit

    “I’m embarrassed about Brexit: it’s a practical disaster, a betrayal of my parents’ and grandparents’ sacrifice to make a Europe that was not going to be divided again. It’s a tragedy,”

    .
    I have no issue with people changing nationalities if they do not like what their present nation is doing, including over Brexit, but it does seem a bit much to suggest not being part of the EU is a betrayal of parents and grandparents as if everyone had been fighting explicitly for the intent of creating a supranational institution.

    Brexit was, in my view, a mistake that I contributed to, but there is a difference between 'divided to the point of war' and 'not all being part of the EU'.

    People also cannot seem to make up their minds if it was a betrayal of the older generation (even though the majority of those voted for it) or a betrayal of the younger generation. It could be they think it was both, but mentioning one only seems to suggest this person does not think that.
    Absolutely so

    He could have said “I don’t like Brexit, I disagree with it, I believe it is an error, but the British people were free to choose as they did. However I will now take up German citizenship, as it my right, so I can retain my European citizenship and my Freedom of Movement”

    But he didn’t say that. He’s gone way way further and is, in effect, saying Brexit was a sin or a crime - or both. Morally wrong. Should not have been allowed. Which is absurd. It was a choice to exit a quasi Federal union, as was our right under Article 50 of the fucking EU Constitution which they immorally forced on us, so fuck em. And him. I’m going to push over one off his stupid statues when and if I ever get home

    *knocks back more Tsinandali wine in his Georgian park*
    God Leon, give your liver a rest.

    I hardly drink, and i'm having to take liver tests atm.
    You clearly missed the Times article which said people that drink “two bottles of wine a day” are healthier, happier and longer lived than teetotallers and modest drinkers. I took it as a cue to up my consumption by about a quarter of a bottle a day, so as to hit the target
    That would explain me being as healthy as a butcher's dog
    I've felt like crap since I stopped drinking heavily.
  • NorthofStokeNorthofStoke Posts: 1,758

    Leon said:

    If you are a British citizen that hates Brexit so much you literally *become German* then I suggest you weren’t really British in the first place

    https://www.theguardian.com/artanddesign/2022/jun/04/antony-gormley-to-become-german-citizen-due-to-tragedy-of-brexit

    A brilliant artist, but I can't help but think his energy would be better directed at crafting a vast sculpture to the Ukrainian spirit....
    I agree, but that might not go down too well with the current government of his new nationality. I'm afraid that many British intellectuals have an exaggerated view of the deficiencies of Britain and far too rosy a view of other Western European countries. Afd (well to the right of UKIP) is polling above maximum UKIP support and the current German chancellor has behaved abominably with respect to Ukraine.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,262

    malcolmg said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    kle4 said:

    tlg86 said:

    Leon said:

    If you are a British citizen that hates Brexit so much you literally *become German* then I suggest you weren’t really British in the first place

    https://www.theguardian.com/artanddesign/2022/jun/04/antony-gormley-to-become-german-citizen-due-to-tragedy-of-brexit

    “I’m embarrassed about Brexit: it’s a practical disaster, a betrayal of my parents’ and grandparents’ sacrifice to make a Europe that was not going to be divided again. It’s a tragedy,”

    .
    I have no issue with people changing nationalities if they do not like what their present nation is doing, including over Brexit, but it does seem a bit much to suggest not being part of the EU is a betrayal of parents and grandparents as if everyone had been fighting explicitly for the intent of creating a supranational institution.

    Brexit was, in my view, a mistake that I contributed to, but there is a difference between 'divided to the point of war' and 'not all being part of the EU'.

    People also cannot seem to make up their minds if it was a betrayal of the older generation (even though the majority of those voted for it) or a betrayal of the younger generation. It could be they think it was both, but mentioning one only seems to suggest this person does not think that.
    Absolutely so

    He could have said “I don’t like Brexit, I disagree with it, I believe it is an error, but the British people were free to choose as they did. However I will now take up German citizenship, as it my right, so I can retain my European citizenship and my Freedom of Movement”

    But he didn’t say that. He’s gone way way further and is, in effect, saying Brexit was a sin or a crime - or both. Morally wrong. Should not have been allowed. Which is absurd. It was a choice to exit a quasi Federal union, as was our right under Article 50 of the fucking EU Constitution which they immorally forced on us, so fuck em. And him. I’m going to push over one off his stupid statues when and if I ever get home

    *knocks back more Tsinandali wine in his Georgian park*
    God Leon, give your liver a rest.

    I hardly drink, and i'm having to take liver tests atm.
    You clearly missed the Times article which said people that drink “two bottles of wine a day” are healthier, happier and longer lived than teetotallers and modest drinkers. I took it as a cue to up my consumption by about a quarter of a bottle a day, so as to hit the target
    That would explain me being as healthy as a butcher's dog
    I've felt like crap since I stopped drinking heavily.
    Have your thumbs gone weird?
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,402
    Andy_JS said:

    Three German opinion polls now putting the lead governing party in 3rd place.

    https://www.wahlrecht.de/umfragen/

    The continuing rise of the Greens since entering government is a wonder to behold.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,135

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    dixiedean said:

    dixiedean said:

    Open ridicule, booing and laughter for Andrew Griffith on Any Answers.
    This is on the Isle of Wight, too.

    Yes, though pedantically you'll probably find that Any Answers is on after Any Questions, rather than before.
    Indeed.
    The audience is ferociously hostile to the government. To a degree I've never heard before. It's growing, not fading away.

    And yet, if that were true, we’d be seeing polling as happened to Major’s government in the mid 90s, with Blair’s Labour 20 points ahead

    We’re not seeing that. What we see is a standard mid term poll lead for an opposition facing a tired government

    I hate to drop the B-bomb word so liberally, but I suggest a lot of this anger at Boris and the Tories is actually sublimated Remoaner angst and loathing of Leaver Boris, but this time channeled through a new rage at his partying frivolity

    I’m not defending him, btw, it IS time for him to eff off
    His ratings indicate plenty of Leavers have had it with him too.
    Brainwashed by the Remainer media and institutions?
    Clearly. The Matrix is powerful. Only the strongest can resist.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,329
    edited June 2022

    malcolmg said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    kle4 said:

    tlg86 said:

    Leon said:

    If you are a British citizen that hates Brexit so much you literally *become German* then I suggest you weren’t really British in the first place

    https://www.theguardian.com/artanddesign/2022/jun/04/antony-gormley-to-become-german-citizen-due-to-tragedy-of-brexit

    “I’m embarrassed about Brexit: it’s a practical disaster, a betrayal of my parents’ and grandparents’ sacrifice to make a Europe that was not going to be divided again. It’s a tragedy,”

    .
    I have no issue with people changing nationalities if they do not like what their present nation is doing, including over Brexit, but it does seem a bit much to suggest not being part of the EU is a betrayal of parents and grandparents as if everyone had been fighting explicitly for the intent of creating a supranational institution.

    Brexit was, in my view, a mistake that I contributed to, but there is a difference between 'divided to the point of war' and 'not all being part of the EU'.

    People also cannot seem to make up their minds if it was a betrayal of the older generation (even though the majority of those voted for it) or a betrayal of the younger generation. It could be they think it was both, but mentioning one only seems to suggest this person does not think that.
    Absolutely so

    He could have said “I don’t like Brexit, I disagree with it, I believe it is an error, but the British people were free to choose as they did. However I will now take up German citizenship, as it my right, so I can retain my European citizenship and my Freedom of Movement”

    But he didn’t say that. He’s gone way way further and is, in effect, saying Brexit was a sin or a crime - or both. Morally wrong. Should not have been allowed. Which is absurd. It was a choice to exit a quasi Federal union, as was our right under Article 50 of the fucking EU Constitution which they immorally forced on us, so fuck em. And him. I’m going to push over one off his stupid statues when and if I ever get home

    *knocks back more Tsinandali wine in his Georgian park*
    God Leon, give your liver a rest.

    I hardly drink, and i'm having to take liver tests atm.
    You clearly missed the Times article which said people that drink “two bottles of wine a day” are healthier, happier and longer lived than teetotallers and modest drinkers. I took it as a cue to up my consumption by about a quarter of a bottle a day, so as to hit the target
    That would explain me being as healthy as a butcher's dog
    I've felt like crap since I stopped drinking heavily.
    Big mistake wooly, though I don't count what I drink nowadays heavy. Bit more than the laughable 21 units mind you.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,262

    Leon said:

    If you are a British citizen that hates Brexit so much you literally *become German* then I suggest you weren’t really British in the first place

    https://www.theguardian.com/artanddesign/2022/jun/04/antony-gormley-to-become-german-citizen-due-to-tragedy-of-brexit

    A brilliant artist, but I can't help but think his energy would be better directed at crafting a vast sculpture to the Ukrainian spirit....
    I agree, but that might not go down too well with the current government of his new nationality. I'm afraid that many British intellectuals have an exaggerated view of the deficiencies of Britain and far too rosy a view of other Western European countries. Afd (well to the right of UKIP) is polling above maximum UKIP support and the current German chancellor has behaved abominably with respect to Ukraine.
    Negative Nationalism has been the default position for “intellectuals” since the Napoleonic Wars.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 18,361
    edited June 2022

    algarkirk said:

    Re cost of a pint (14p in a London pub in 1971/2 when I started) it seems to me that the thing which has grown enormously is the gap between the cost of drinking the stuff at home - which is trivial TBH - and at a pub, which is not trivial at all.

    Minimum wage, fewer customers per pub.
    In the Goode Olde Days, the price of beer for drinking at home was massively inflated.

    When supermarkets started on their cost cutting (which has been going on for decades), cutting the price of beer for home consumption was a massive “leader” for them.

    At the same time, the cost of beer in pubs has gone up, a lot, due to wages, the endless efforts of the big companies to drain more money from the industry, rents etc
    Sunak finally took my advice to cut alcohol duty for draught beer, to try to narrow this gap, but only made a tentative start that doesn't come into effect until 2023. Hopefully the next Chancellor will take this further.
  • FrankBoothFrankBooth Posts: 9,828

    kle4 said:

    Emmanuel Macron, the French president, said it is vital that Russia is not humiliated so that when the fighting stops in Ukraine a diplomatic solution can be found.

    Telegraph live blog

    It doesn't make any sense though. Even after all this fighting at some point the diplomats will get involved, but anything that forces them to halt their invasion will be seen as humiliating to Russia. It isn't possible to not humiliate them in such a way, for anything other than achieving total victory.

    Plus, let's be real, even diplomatic solutions are not really merely diplomatic solutions. Say the solution is official autonomy for Donbas but Russia (officially) pulls back - unlikely, but for sake of argument - that would have been achieved by war.

    So not humiliating Russia cannot be the goal, since sitting down with Ukraine would be humilating (Ukriane is not a real country after all). So I assume he is using code to mean 'Russia will need to get something out of this', which would be a more honest and direct point.
    God knows what the french are thinking. I assume this isn't just Macron, but the french foreign policy establishment's view. Maybe some kind of whacky ideal about France being some kind of balance between Russia and USA?
    They view Russia as part of a European power bloc to rival the US and China
    Under its current leadership?

    This seems flawed because a united Europe doesn't really need Russia to be a global power and by offering all these olive branches you risk antagonising much of central and eastern Europe.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,135
    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    dixiedean said:

    dixiedean said:

    Open ridicule, booing and laughter for Andrew Griffith on Any Answers.
    This is on the Isle of Wight, too.

    Yes, though pedantically you'll probably find that Any Answers is on after Any Questions, rather than before.
    Indeed.
    The audience is ferociously hostile to the government. To a degree I've never heard before. It's growing, not fading away.

    And yet, if that were true, we’d be seeing polling as happened to Major’s government in the mid 90s, with Blair’s Labour 20 points ahead

    We’re not seeing that. What we see is a standard mid term poll lead for an opposition facing a tired government

    I hate to drop the B-bomb word so liberally, but I suggest a lot of this anger at Boris and the Tories is actually sublimated Remoaner angst and loathing of Leaver Boris, but this time channeled through a new rage at his partying frivolity

    I’m not defending him, btw, it IS time for him to eff off
    I don't think that is true. Johnson is seen now less as an evil enemy - which is how many opponents saw Thatcher, Major and Blair - and more as a figure of utter derision and scorn. And that is an impression that has spread beyond those who just naturally oppose him and on to many who would normally support a Conservative government. Yes it may be wishful thinking on my part but I simply see no way back when he has become so derided.
    Nah

    Look at the people who are most performatively angered by his partying and most hysterically eager to see him go. They are nearly all Remoaners

    And maybe they should have their slaughtered lamb. Maybe they will cease being so fruitlessly angry once he has gone

    I doubt it - look at @Scott_xP - but we can hope
    It's the lying. And there's nothing recent about it. It's just that more are catching on.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,153

    They should at least get a Jimmy Savile impersonator to announce this.


    I learned recently that ‘nonce’ is an acronym. It comes from Wakefield Prison. For their own safety, child sex offenders aren’t allowed mix with the general prison population, so their cells were marked ‘Not on normal courtyard exercise’.

    Every day’s a school day.
    Ah interesting. Nonce is used in cryptography as the name for a random string that is used as a one-off so that both ends of the communication can see that they encrypt the nonce to the same value, using the encryption keys, which they don't have to exchange. Always a bit weird to put "nonce" into an http authentication header when you know the secondary British meaning for the word.
    A friend of mine designed one of the first Bitcoin mining chips. For some bizarre reason, it was called The Golden Nonce.
  • JohnLilburneJohnLilburne Posts: 6,241
    IanB2 said:

    IanB2 said:

    IanB2 said:

    Leon said:

    IanB2 said:

    Leon said:

    stodge said:

    Leon said:


    And yet, if that were true, we’d be seeing polling as happened to Major’s government in the mid 90s, with Blair’s Labour 20 points ahead

    We’re not seeing that. What we see is a standard mid term poll lead for an opposition facing a tired government

    I hate to drop the B-bomb word so liberally, but I suggest a lot of this anger at Boris and the Tories is actually sublimated Remoaner angst and loathing of Leaver Boris, but this time channeled through a new rage at his partying frivolity

    I’m not defending him, btw, it IS time for him to eff off

    As we saw in Australia, it may not be the main opposition which kills the Conservatives next time but the leeching of votes to minor parties (LDs, Greens, Independents).

    There's also the truth many people will vote against the Conservatives next time and it will be a question of where and how that anti-Conservative vote is maximised.
    Yes, I can easily see that happening. And dumping Boris may not be enough to stop this. I sense the British public are just BORED of the Tory party (leaving aside Partygate and Boris and Brexit)

    I know I am bored of them
    It’s bored with, not of.

    If only you had more experience of using written English, you’d have known that already.
    As I have constantly told you, I am but a humble knapper of erotic flints. You should therefore not be surprised if I do not show the verbal flair of, say, a writer of international bestsellers
    The mystery is why you do not even show the written (“verbal” is another mistake) flair of a writer of trashy bus station fiction?

    I’m guessing the suggestion above that you’re already on the bottle is sadly on the money.
    Verbal relates to the use of words both written and oral.
    OED: Expressed or conveyed by speech instead of writing; stated or delivered by word of mouth; oral.
    Indeed, mine says that too. However it is the second meaning, the first being "of or concerned with words". The meaning that Leon was using. As an example, verbal reasoning tests are usually written.
    Because the actual reasoning goes on in your head.
    Now look at your OED and tell me that "verbal" doesn't also have the meaning I gave above. Only it will be more wordy as I've only got a Concise Oxford.
  • dixiedean said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Three German opinion polls now putting the lead governing party in 3rd place.

    https://www.wahlrecht.de/umfragen/

    The continuing rise of the Greens since entering government is a wonder to behold.
    They've done well in the polls since the election, but worth noting that they were in first place in quite a few polls in April/May 2021. It does remain to be seen whether that's a bit of a centre-left protest that will melt away and return to the SPD moving towards an election, as it did last year.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 35,990
    Leon said:

    Look at the people who are most performatively angered by his partying and most hysterically eager to see him go. They are nearly all Remoaners

    Bollocks.

    The ones who should be upset, are those that voted for him and his lies.

    They try to cover their embarrassment by pretending not to care.
  • stodgestodge Posts: 13,874


    Is there collapse of the French centre-right? Macron is centre right and you have him close to majority with the “vintage” centre right picking up something too.

    And if you are not suggesting what I suggestively suggested maybe you should suggest it - for I am right. If Boris is ousted, it would never have happened he hadn’t shredded his own popularity as it was!

    The traditional Gaullist centre-right, the party of Chirac and Sarkozy, is in retreat while the more avowedly centrist Macron is still a serious force. Whether Ensemble will outlive Macron remains to be seen - I suspect he has a successor in mind, perhaps Guerini.

    Macron was able to capture people like Edouard Philippe who had backed Juppe and bring them into En Marche.

    French politics has been transformed by Macron - both the old centre-right and centre-left parties have been swept away and you now have a Left-Green Alliance, a centrist bloc and a right wing party.

    In British terms, it would be the LDs and Farage tearing the Conservatives apart while Labour was subsumed into a more radical Left-Green movement leaving a new three-party system.

  • NorthofStokeNorthofStoke Posts: 1,758
    dixiedean said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Three German opinion polls now putting the lead governing party in 3rd place.

    https://www.wahlrecht.de/umfragen/

    The continuing rise of the Greens since entering government is a wonder to behold.
    They are Greens but not as we know them. They are relatively sane and pragmatic.
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 22,822
    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    dixiedean said:

    dixiedean said:

    Open ridicule, booing and laughter for Andrew Griffith on Any Answers.
    This is on the Isle of Wight, too.

    Yes, though pedantically you'll probably find that Any Answers is on after Any Questions, rather than before.
    Indeed.
    The audience is ferociously hostile to the government. To a degree I've never heard before. It's growing, not fading away.

    And yet, if that were true, we’d be seeing polling as happened to Major’s government in the mid 90s, with Blair’s Labour 20 points ahead

    We’re not seeing that. What we see is a standard mid term poll lead for an opposition facing a tired government

    I hate to drop the B-bomb word so liberally, but I suggest a lot of this anger at Boris and the Tories is actually sublimated Remoaner angst and loathing of Leaver Boris, but this time channeled through a new rage at his partying frivolity

    I’m not defending him, btw, it IS time for him to eff off
    I don't think that is true. Johnson is seen now less as an evil enemy - which is how many opponents saw Thatcher, Major and Blair - and more as a figure of utter derision and scorn. And that is an impression that has spread beyond those who just naturally oppose him and on to many who would normally support a Conservative government. Yes it may be wishful thinking on my part but I simply see no way back when he has become so derided.
    Nah

    Look at the people who are most performatively angered by his partying and most hysterically eager to see him go. They are nearly all Remoaners

    And maybe they should have their slaughtered lamb. Maybe they will cease being so fruitlessly angry once he has gone

    I doubt it - look at @Scott_xP - but we can hope
    It's the lying. And there's nothing recent about it. It's just that more are catching on.
    They always knew, didnt care when he was lying for them but do when is lying to them.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 35,990

    They always knew, didnt care when he was lying for them but do when is lying to them.

    He was always lying to them. They were just dumb enough to fall for it.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,402
    edited June 2022
    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    dixiedean said:

    dixiedean said:

    Open ridicule, booing and laughter for Andrew Griffith on Any Answers.
    This is on the Isle of Wight, too.

    Yes, though pedantically you'll probably find that Any Answers is on after Any Questions, rather than before.
    Indeed.
    The audience is ferociously hostile to the government. To a degree I've never heard before. It's growing, not fading away.

    And yet, if that were true, we’d be seeing polling as happened to Major’s government in the mid 90s, with Blair’s Labour 20 points ahead

    We’re not seeing that. What we see is a standard mid term poll lead for an opposition facing a tired government

    I hate to drop the B-bomb word so liberally, but I suggest a lot of this anger at Boris and the Tories is actually sublimated Remoaner angst and loathing of Leaver Boris, but this time channeled through a new rage at his partying frivolity

    I’m not defending him, btw, it IS time for him to eff off
    I don't think that is true. Johnson is seen now less as an evil enemy - which is how many opponents saw Thatcher, Major and Blair - and more as a figure of utter derision and scorn. And that is an impression that has spread beyond those who just naturally oppose him and on to many who would normally support a Conservative government. Yes it may be wishful thinking on my part but I simply see no way back when he has become so derided.
    Nah

    Look at the people who are most performatively angered by his partying and most hysterically eager to see him go. They are nearly all Remoaners

    And maybe they should have their slaughtered lamb. Maybe they will cease being so fruitlessly angry once he has gone

    I doubt it - look at @Scott_xP - but we can hope
    With the greatest respect. You haven't been in the country much lately.
    Something fundamental has changed relatively recently. Maybe even in the last week.
    It isn't anger at all It is open scorn and ridicule. No longer just for him. But for his enablers and apologists too. And not just from the usual suspects. It is coming from the most unexpected of places. Crowds of Royalists, The Isle of Wight.
    That is new.
  • MoonRabbitMoonRabbit Posts: 13,506
    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    dixiedean said:

    dixiedean said:

    Open ridicule, booing and laughter for Andrew Griffith on Any Answers.
    This is on the Isle of Wight, too.

    Yes, though pedantically you'll probably find that Any Answers is on after Any Questions, rather than before.
    Indeed.
    The audience is ferociously hostile to the government. To a degree I've never heard before. It's growing, not fading away.

    And yet, if that were true, we’d be seeing polling as happened to Major’s government in the mid 90s, with Blair’s Labour 20 points ahead

    We’re not seeing that. What we see is a standard mid term poll lead for an opposition facing a tired government

    I hate to drop the B-bomb word so liberally, but I suggest a lot of this anger at Boris and the Tories is actually sublimated Remoaner angst and loathing of Leaver Boris, but this time channeled through a new rage at his partying frivolity

    I’m not defending him, btw, it IS time for him to eff off
    I don't think that is true. Johnson is seen now less as an evil enemy - which is how many opponents saw Thatcher, Major and Blair - and more as a figure of utter derision and scorn. And that is an impression that has spread beyond those who just naturally oppose him and on to many who would normally support a Conservative government. Yes it may be wishful thinking on my part but I simply see no way back when he has become so derided.
    Nah

    Look at the people who are most performatively angered by his partying and most hysterically eager to see him go. They are nearly all Remoaners

    And maybe they should have their slaughtered lamb. Maybe they will cease being so fruitlessly angry once he has gone

    I doubt it - look at @Scott_xP - but we can hope
    Don’t you think Boris has messed up Brexit?

    Boris nor his government spend much time out there selling its successes do they? Surely dining out on getting Brexit done and the success of it being delivered now should be making him unassailable in his own party right now, and sailing toward his second general election win?

    If someone states Horis the Boss Hogg is dumped this week because he has messed up implementation of Brexit, how is that wholly wrong?
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 17,220
    Scott_xP said:

    Leon said:

    Look at the people who are most performatively angered by his partying and most hysterically eager to see him go. They are nearly all Remoaners

    Bollocks.

    The ones who should be upset, are those that voted for him and his lies.

    They try to cover their embarrassment by pretending not to care.
    That's the art of the heist for you.

    When the victim realises they have been conned, they don't complain, because to do so would be to acknowledge their complicity.

    (In this case, people knowingly supported Johnson's elevation, knowing he was awful, because they thought he would be their puppet.)
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,175
    What's with the fireworks at Epsom? Seems like a bad idea when you've got excitable three year-olds on the course.
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 32,523

    IanB2 said:

    Leon said:

    IanB2 said:

    Leon said:

    stodge said:

    Leon said:


    And yet, if that were true, we’d be seeing polling as happened to Major’s government in the mid 90s, with Blair’s Labour 20 points ahead

    We’re not seeing that. What we see is a standard mid term poll lead for an opposition facing a tired government

    I hate to drop the B-bomb word so liberally, but I suggest a lot of this anger at Boris and the Tories is actually sublimated Remoaner angst and loathing of Leaver Boris, but this time channeled through a new rage at his partying frivolity

    I’m not defending him, btw, it IS time for him to eff off

    As we saw in Australia, it may not be the main opposition which kills the Conservatives next time but the leeching of votes to minor parties (LDs, Greens, Independents).

    There's also the truth many people will vote against the Conservatives next time and it will be a question of where and how that anti-Conservative vote is maximised.
    Yes, I can easily see that happening. And dumping Boris may not be enough to stop this. I sense the British public are just BORED of the Tory party (leaving aside Partygate and Boris and Brexit)

    I know I am bored of them
    It’s bored with, not of.

    If only you had more experience of using written English, you’d have known that already.
    As I have constantly told you, I am but a humble knapper of erotic flints. You should therefore not be surprised if I do not show the verbal flair of, say, a writer of international bestsellers
    The mystery is why you do not even show the written (“verbal” is another mistake) flair of a writer of trashy bus station fiction?

    I’m guessing the suggestion above that you’re already on the bottle is sadly on the money.
    Verbal relates to the use of words both written and oral.
    No it doesn't. Verbal specifically relates to spoken, oral communication.

    Your confusion may stem from the fact that non-verbal communication does not include writing but this is an oddity of the English language as non-verbal means neither spoken or written whereas verbal specifically means spoken.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 35,990

    If someone states Horis the Boss Hogg is dumped this week because he has messed up implementation of Brexit, how is that wholly wrong?

    Like that well known Remoaner, Tory MP Tobias Ellwood...
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 10,061

    malcolmg said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    kle4 said:

    tlg86 said:

    Leon said:

    If you are a British citizen that hates Brexit so much you literally *become German* then I suggest you weren’t really British in the first place

    https://www.theguardian.com/artanddesign/2022/jun/04/antony-gormley-to-become-german-citizen-due-to-tragedy-of-brexit

    “I’m embarrassed about Brexit: it’s a practical disaster, a betrayal of my parents’ and grandparents’ sacrifice to make a Europe that was not going to be divided again. It’s a tragedy,”

    .
    I have no issue with people changing nationalities if they do not like what their present nation is doing, including over Brexit, but it does seem a bit much to suggest not being part of the EU is a betrayal of parents and grandparents as if everyone had been fighting explicitly for the intent of creating a supranational institution.

    Brexit was, in my view, a mistake that I contributed to, but there is a difference between 'divided to the point of war' and 'not all being part of the EU'.

    People also cannot seem to make up their minds if it was a betrayal of the older generation (even though the majority of those voted for it) or a betrayal of the younger generation. It could be they think it was both, but mentioning one only seems to suggest this person does not think that.
    Absolutely so

    He could have said “I don’t like Brexit, I disagree with it, I believe it is an error, but the British people were free to choose as they did. However I will now take up German citizenship, as it my right, so I can retain my European citizenship and my Freedom of Movement”

    But he didn’t say that. He’s gone way way further and is, in effect, saying Brexit was a sin or a crime - or both. Morally wrong. Should not have been allowed. Which is absurd. It was a choice to exit a quasi Federal union, as was our right under Article 50 of the fucking EU Constitution which they immorally forced on us, so fuck em. And him. I’m going to push over one off his stupid statues when and if I ever get home

    *knocks back more Tsinandali wine in his Georgian park*
    God Leon, give your liver a rest.

    I hardly drink, and i'm having to take liver tests atm.
    You clearly missed the Times article which said people that drink “two bottles of wine a day” are healthier, happier and longer lived than teetotallers and modest drinkers. I took it as a cue to up my consumption by about a quarter of a bottle a day, so as to hit the target
    That would explain me being as healthy as a butcher's dog
    I've felt like crap since I stopped drinking heavily.
    Have your thumbs gone weird?
    Nothing works any more. I'm a wretch
  • MoonRabbitMoonRabbit Posts: 13,506
    Scott_xP said:

    Johnson has told colleagues that a confidence vote would be pointless, especially without an obvious successor. “There’s no alternative strategy, no alternative plan, no big ideological divide,” an ally said https://twitter.com/thetimes/status/1533107438769127425/photo/1

    He hasn't grasped the point, which is simply to get rid of him...

    Spot on. it’s the fact replacing the unpopular guy that messed up now dragging Party down, without making a huge idealogical change or much fuss that makes it all more likely to happen! Boris actually needs to find an idealogical divide, alternate clear water this week, To run against. I thought that was supposed to be Boris Lord Protector of Brexit versus the old enemy who want to start watering it down already? If he makes it like that it’s only only way he survives.
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830

    IanB2 said:

    Leon said:

    IanB2 said:

    Leon said:

    stodge said:

    Leon said:


    And yet, if that were true, we’d be seeing polling as happened to Major’s government in the mid 90s, with Blair’s Labour 20 points ahead

    We’re not seeing that. What we see is a standard mid term poll lead for an opposition facing a tired government

    I hate to drop the B-bomb word so liberally, but I suggest a lot of this anger at Boris and the Tories is actually sublimated Remoaner angst and loathing of Leaver Boris, but this time channeled through a new rage at his partying frivolity

    I’m not defending him, btw, it IS time for him to eff off

    As we saw in Australia, it may not be the main opposition which kills the Conservatives next time but the leeching of votes to minor parties (LDs, Greens, Independents).

    There's also the truth many people will vote against the Conservatives next time and it will be a question of where and how that anti-Conservative vote is maximised.
    Yes, I can easily see that happening. And dumping Boris may not be enough to stop this. I sense the British public are just BORED of the Tory party (leaving aside Partygate and Boris and Brexit)

    I know I am bored of them
    It’s bored with, not of.

    If only you had more experience of using written English, you’d have known that already.
    As I have constantly told you, I am but a humble knapper of erotic flints. You should therefore not be surprised if I do not show the verbal flair of, say, a writer of international bestsellers
    The mystery is why you do not even show the written (“verbal” is another mistake) flair of a writer of trashy bus station fiction?

    I’m guessing the suggestion above that you’re already on the bottle is sadly on the money.
    Verbal relates to the use of words both written and oral.
    No it doesn't. Verbal specifically relates to spoken, oral communication.

    Your confusion may stem from the fact that non-verbal communication does not include writing but this is an oddity of the English language as non-verbal means neither spoken or written whereas verbal specifically means spoken.
    It really doesn't. I mean it does in vernacular speech as in that copper fucking verballed me innit, but verbum is word, not spoken word
  • RogerRoger Posts: 19,913
    kinabalu said:

    One of Johnson's many flaws is that he has surrounded himself with pygmies so as to avoid threats to his position. The worry has to be that one of them (Patel!) could replace him. Mordaunt has gone very quiet but she could impress in a leadership contest.

    I can't see Patel getting into the top two in the Parliamentary party first round. Mordaunt is a lot more likely
    I'm on Mordaunt at good odds. Can easily see her emerging as the choice.
    Do all candidates have to appear like this or just the female ones

    https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/2486207/tory-mp-penny-mordaunt-drops-her-fella/
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,402
    edited June 2022

    dixiedean said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Three German opinion polls now putting the lead governing party in 3rd place.

    https://www.wahlrecht.de/umfragen/

    The continuing rise of the Greens since entering government is a wonder to behold.
    They've done well in the polls since the election, but worth noting that they were in first place in quite a few polls in April/May 2021. It does remain to be seen whether that's a bit of a centre-left protest that will melt away and return to the SPD moving towards an election, as it did last year.

    dixiedean said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Three German opinion polls now putting the lead governing party in 3rd place.

    https://www.wahlrecht.de/umfragen/

    The continuing rise of the Greens since entering government is a wonder to behold.
    They are Greens but not as we know them. They are relatively sane and pragmatic.
    Given the age voting splits, I would wager that the next left-of-centre Chancellor will probably be a Green.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 35,990

    Boris actually needs to find an idealogical divide, alternate clear water this week, To run against. I thought that was supposed to be Boris Lord Protector of Brexit versus the old enemy who want to start watering it down already? If he makes it like that it’s only only way he survives.

    Ress Mogg already pitched that argument.

    Slight flaw in the plan; Brexit is a shitshow and they know it...
  • MoonRabbitMoonRabbit Posts: 13,506
    stodge said:


    Is there collapse of the French centre-right? Macron is centre right and you have him close to majority with the “vintage” centre right picking up something too.

    And if you are not suggesting what I suggestively suggested maybe you should suggest it - for I am right. If Boris is ousted, it would never have happened he hadn’t shredded his own popularity as it was!

    The traditional Gaullist centre-right, the party of Chirac and Sarkozy, is in retreat while the more avowedly centrist Macron is still a serious force. Whether Ensemble will outlive Macron remains to be seen - I suspect he has a successor in mind, perhaps Guerini.

    Macron was able to capture people like Edouard Philippe who had backed Juppe and bring them into En Marche.

    French politics has been transformed by Macron - both the old centre-right and centre-left parties have been swept away and you now have a Left-Green Alliance, a centrist bloc and a right wing party.

    In British terms, it would be the LDs and Farage tearing the Conservatives apart while Labour was subsumed into a more radical Left-Green movement leaving a new three-party system.

    Sounds bonkers. Let’s hope there’s not a wind blowing from that direction. 😒
  • MoonRabbitMoonRabbit Posts: 13,506

    malcolmg said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    kle4 said:

    tlg86 said:

    Leon said:

    If you are a British citizen that hates Brexit so much you literally *become German* then I suggest you weren’t really British in the first place

    https://www.theguardian.com/artanddesign/2022/jun/04/antony-gormley-to-become-german-citizen-due-to-tragedy-of-brexit

    “I’m embarrassed about Brexit: it’s a practical disaster, a betrayal of my parents’ and grandparents’ sacrifice to make a Europe that was not going to be divided again. It’s a tragedy,”

    .
    I have no issue with people changing nationalities if they do not like what their present nation is doing, including over Brexit, but it does seem a bit much to suggest not being part of the EU is a betrayal of parents and grandparents as if everyone had been fighting explicitly for the intent of creating a supranational institution.

    Brexit was, in my view, a mistake that I contributed to, but there is a difference between 'divided to the point of war' and 'not all being part of the EU'.

    People also cannot seem to make up their minds if it was a betrayal of the older generation (even though the majority of those voted for it) or a betrayal of the younger generation. It could be they think it was both, but mentioning one only seems to suggest this person does not think that.
    Absolutely so

    He could have said “I don’t like Brexit, I disagree with it, I believe it is an error, but the British people were free to choose as they did. However I will now take up German citizenship, as it my right, so I can retain my European citizenship and my Freedom of Movement”

    But he didn’t say that. He’s gone way way further and is, in effect, saying Brexit was a sin or a crime - or both. Morally wrong. Should not have been allowed. Which is absurd. It was a choice to exit a quasi Federal union, as was our right under Article 50 of the fucking EU Constitution which they immorally forced on us, so fuck em. And him. I’m going to push over one off his stupid statues when and if I ever get home

    *knocks back more Tsinandali wine in his Georgian park*
    God Leon, give your liver a rest.

    I hardly drink, and i'm having to take liver tests atm.
    You clearly missed the Times article which said people that drink “two bottles of wine a day” are healthier, happier and longer lived than teetotallers and modest drinkers. I took it as a cue to up my consumption by about a quarter of a bottle a day, so as to hit the target
    That would explain me being as healthy as a butcher's dog
    I've felt like crap since I stopped drinking heavily.
    Have your thumbs gone weird?
    Nothing works any more. I'm a wretch
    Your political Brain still working very well
  • MoonRabbitMoonRabbit Posts: 13,506
    Roger said:

    kinabalu said:

    One of Johnson's many flaws is that he has surrounded himself with pygmies so as to avoid threats to his position. The worry has to be that one of them (Patel!) could replace him. Mordaunt has gone very quiet but she could impress in a leadership contest.

    I can't see Patel getting into the top two in the Parliamentary party first round. Mordaunt is a lot more likely
    I'm on Mordaunt at good odds. Can easily see her emerging as the choice.
    Do all candidates have to appear like this or just the female ones

    https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/2486207/tory-mp-penny-mordaunt-drops-her-fella/
    This sort of thing should get her voters up, in some quantity.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hvLcYUXBBuc
  • Jim_MillerJim_Miller Posts: 2,998
    If, like me, you like weird cartoons, you may want to visit Gary Larson's site, regularly: https://www.thefarside.com/

    (He updates it every day, with recycled cartoons, and sometimes mentions that he has a batch of new ones for us to look at. I think they help me be a little less argumentative than I owuld be otherwise.)
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,262

    algarkirk said:

    Re cost of a pint (14p in a London pub in 1971/2 when I started) it seems to me that the thing which has grown enormously is the gap between the cost of drinking the stuff at home - which is trivial TBH - and at a pub, which is not trivial at all.

    Minimum wage, fewer customers per pub.
    In the Goode Olde Days, the price of beer for drinking at home was massively inflated.

    When supermarkets started on their cost cutting (which has been going on for decades), cutting the price of beer for home consumption was a massive “leader” for them.

    At the same time, the cost of beer in pubs has gone up, a lot, due to wages, the endless efforts of the big companies to drain more money from the industry, rents etc
    Sunak finally took my advice to cut alcohol duty for draught beer, to try to narrow this gap, but only made a tentative start that doesn't come into effect until 2023. Hopefully the next Chancellor will take this further.
    Unless he somehow restores the cartels of brewers that made up RipOff Britain and kept the prices of beer outside the pubs high, there is little that can be done to narrow the gap.

    Unless he decides to commit political suicide with a 500% tax on beer for home consumption.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,262

    malcolmg said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    kle4 said:

    tlg86 said:

    Leon said:

    If you are a British citizen that hates Brexit so much you literally *become German* then I suggest you weren’t really British in the first place

    https://www.theguardian.com/artanddesign/2022/jun/04/antony-gormley-to-become-german-citizen-due-to-tragedy-of-brexit

    “I’m embarrassed about Brexit: it’s a practical disaster, a betrayal of my parents’ and grandparents’ sacrifice to make a Europe that was not going to be divided again. It’s a tragedy,”

    .
    I have no issue with people changing nationalities if they do not like what their present nation is doing, including over Brexit, but it does seem a bit much to suggest not being part of the EU is a betrayal of parents and grandparents as if everyone had been fighting explicitly for the intent of creating a supranational institution.

    Brexit was, in my view, a mistake that I contributed to, but there is a difference between 'divided to the point of war' and 'not all being part of the EU'.

    People also cannot seem to make up their minds if it was a betrayal of the older generation (even though the majority of those voted for it) or a betrayal of the younger generation. It could be they think it was both, but mentioning one only seems to suggest this person does not think that.
    Absolutely so

    He could have said “I don’t like Brexit, I disagree with it, I believe it is an error, but the British people were free to choose as they did. However I will now take up German citizenship, as it my right, so I can retain my European citizenship and my Freedom of Movement”

    But he didn’t say that. He’s gone way way further and is, in effect, saying Brexit was a sin or a crime - or both. Morally wrong. Should not have been allowed. Which is absurd. It was a choice to exit a quasi Federal union, as was our right under Article 50 of the fucking EU Constitution which they immorally forced on us, so fuck em. And him. I’m going to push over one off his stupid statues when and if I ever get home

    *knocks back more Tsinandali wine in his Georgian park*
    God Leon, give your liver a rest.

    I hardly drink, and i'm having to take liver tests atm.
    You clearly missed the Times article which said people that drink “two bottles of wine a day” are healthier, happier and longer lived than teetotallers and modest drinkers. I took it as a cue to up my consumption by about a quarter of a bottle a day, so as to hit the target
    That would explain me being as healthy as a butcher's dog
    I've felt like crap since I stopped drinking heavily.
    Have your thumbs gone weird?
    Nothing works any more. I'm a wretch
    Make some time
  • MoonRabbitMoonRabbit Posts: 13,506
    Roger said:

    kinabalu said:

    One of Johnson's many flaws is that he has surrounded himself with pygmies so as to avoid threats to his position. The worry has to be that one of them (Patel!) could replace him. Mordaunt has gone very quiet but she could impress in a leadership contest.

    I can't see Patel getting into the top two in the Parliamentary party first round. Mordaunt is a lot more likely
    I'm on Mordaunt at good odds. Can easily see her emerging as the choice.
    Do all candidates have to appear like this or just the female ones

    https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/2486207/tory-mp-penny-mordaunt-drops-her-fella/
    Labour and the left need to be terrified of Mourdant, in just two minutes here she says more than Starmer has said in two years.

    https://twitter.com/sturdyalex/status/1471409989269004294?lang=en

    And it’s exactly what the British People want to hear of their place in this world, and she is so persuasive how she explains these things.

    Take that HY, if you think the Big Dog as he has made himself today can possibly compete with a PM Mourdant.
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 12,497
    On the Gormley nationality discussion, has it been noted that it is possible to have both German and UK dual nationality. I'm not sure that the story has excluded this possibility. If this is the case he is doing what multitudes of people have done and are doing - having the best of all worlds (while slagging UK and Brexit in this case).

    NB Not often (ever) I get 2nd and 4th e/w in the Derby, at 150s and 80s. Did this time.
  • Jim_MillerJim_Miller Posts: 2,998
    Speaking of humor, I Iaughed, ruefully, when I saw the headline on a CNN story: "DOJ will not indict two former Trump officials". (No, I didn't bother to watch the story. I almost entirely avoid our TV news.)
    source: https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/doj-will-not-indict-two-former-trump-officials/vi-AAY4PdO?bk=1&ocid=msedgdhp&pc=U531&cvid=0e9fcd33eeca454fbf4859727b6ba6a3

    (For some months I have been summarizing my objections to Trump like this: Following Trump can be bad for your wealth, your health, or even, in some cases, your freedom. I don't know that I have convinced many Trumpistas, but I plan to kep trying.)
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,716
    rcs1000 said:

    They should at least get a Jimmy Savile impersonator to announce this.


    I learned recently that ‘nonce’ is an acronym. It comes from Wakefield Prison. For their own safety, child sex offenders aren’t allowed mix with the general prison population, so their cells were marked ‘Not on normal courtyard exercise’.

    Every day’s a school day.
    Ah interesting. Nonce is used in cryptography as the name for a random string that is used as a one-off so that both ends of the communication can see that they encrypt the nonce to the same value, using the encryption keys, which they don't have to exchange. Always a bit weird to put "nonce" into an http authentication header when you know the secondary British meaning for the word.
    A friend of mine designed one of the first Bitcoin mining chips. For some bizarre reason, it was called The Golden Nonce.
    Is it pronounced 'N - once' though? That would fit with single time only use.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,565
    Roger said:

    kinabalu said:

    One of Johnson's many flaws is that he has surrounded himself with pygmies so as to avoid threats to his position. The worry has to be that one of them (Patel!) could replace him. Mordaunt has gone very quiet but she could impress in a leadership contest.

    I can't see Patel getting into the top two in the Parliamentary party first round. Mordaunt is a lot more likely
    I'm on Mordaunt at good odds. Can easily see her emerging as the choice.
    Do all candidates have to appear like this or just the female ones

    https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/2486207/tory-mp-penny-mordaunt-drops-her-fella/
    I believe it was her choice.

    Contrasts nicely though with every Labour leader ever in their Speedos....
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,565

    Roger said:

    kinabalu said:

    One of Johnson's many flaws is that he has surrounded himself with pygmies so as to avoid threats to his position. The worry has to be that one of them (Patel!) could replace him. Mordaunt has gone very quiet but she could impress in a leadership contest.

    I can't see Patel getting into the top two in the Parliamentary party first round. Mordaunt is a lot more likely
    I'm on Mordaunt at good odds. Can easily see her emerging as the choice.
    Do all candidates have to appear like this or just the female ones

    https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/2486207/tory-mp-penny-mordaunt-drops-her-fella/
    Labour and the left need to be terrified of Mourdant, in just two minutes here she says more than Starmer has said in two years.

    https://twitter.com/sturdyalex/status/1471409989269004294?lang=en

    And it’s exactly what the British People want to hear of their place in this world, and she is so persuasive how she explains these things.

    Take that HY, if you think the Big Dog as he has made himself today can possibly compete with a PM Mourdant.
    The Establishment will be terrified of course because she went to

    *shudder*

    Reading University.....
  • Mourdant would clearly be an improvement on Johnson but she was a Cameronite under Cameron, a Mayite under May and now a Loserite under Johnson

    What does she believe? Why is she different to the last thirteen years of Tory failure?
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670

    rcs1000 said:

    They should at least get a Jimmy Savile impersonator to announce this.


    I learned recently that ‘nonce’ is an acronym. It comes from Wakefield Prison. For their own safety, child sex offenders aren’t allowed mix with the general prison population, so their cells were marked ‘Not on normal courtyard exercise’.

    Every day’s a school day.
    Ah interesting. Nonce is used in cryptography as the name for a random string that is used as a one-off so that both ends of the communication can see that they encrypt the nonce to the same value, using the encryption keys, which they don't have to exchange. Always a bit weird to put "nonce" into an http authentication header when you know the secondary British meaning for the word.
    A friend of mine designed one of the first Bitcoin mining chips. For some bizarre reason, it was called The Golden Nonce.
    Is it pronounced 'N - once' though? That would fit with single time only use.
    It is indeed short for number once but it is pronounced without any spacing, so just like the normal word.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,862

    Mourdant would clearly be an improvement on Johnson but she was a Cameronite under Cameron, a Mayite under May and now a Loserite under Johnson

    What does she believe? Why is she different to the last thirteen years of Tory failure?

    She also not only participated in that risible ‘Leadsom for Leader’ march on Westminster - which turned out to be illegal as they never got police permission - but she was the bright spark whose idea it was in the first place!
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,431

    malcolmg said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    kle4 said:

    tlg86 said:

    Leon said:

    If you are a British citizen that hates Brexit so much you literally *become German* then I suggest you weren’t really British in the first place

    https://www.theguardian.com/artanddesign/2022/jun/04/antony-gormley-to-become-german-citizen-due-to-tragedy-of-brexit

    “I’m embarrassed about Brexit: it’s a practical disaster, a betrayal of my parents’ and grandparents’ sacrifice to make a Europe that was not going to be divided again. It’s a tragedy,”

    .
    I have no issue with people changing nationalities if they do not like what their present nation is doing, including over Brexit, but it does seem a bit much to suggest not being part of the EU is a betrayal of parents and grandparents as if everyone had been fighting explicitly for the intent of creating a supranational institution.

    Brexit was, in my view, a mistake that I contributed to, but there is a difference between 'divided to the point of war' and 'not all being part of the EU'.

    People also cannot seem to make up their minds if it was a betrayal of the older generation (even though the majority of those voted for it) or a betrayal of the younger generation. It could be they think it was both, but mentioning one only seems to suggest this person does not think that.
    Absolutely so

    He could have said “I don’t like Brexit, I disagree with it, I believe it is an error, but the British people were free to choose as they did. However I will now take up German citizenship, as it my right, so I can retain my European citizenship and my Freedom of Movement”

    But he didn’t say that. He’s gone way way further and is, in effect, saying Brexit was a sin or a crime - or both. Morally wrong. Should not have been allowed. Which is absurd. It was a choice to exit a quasi Federal union, as was our right under Article 50 of the fucking EU Constitution which they immorally forced on us, so fuck em. And him. I’m going to push over one off his stupid statues when and if I ever get home

    *knocks back more Tsinandali wine in his Georgian park*
    God Leon, give your liver a rest.

    I hardly drink, and i'm having to take liver tests atm.
    You clearly missed the Times article which said people that drink “two bottles of wine a day” are healthier, happier and longer lived than teetotallers and modest drinkers. I took it as a cue to up my consumption by about a quarter of a bottle a day, so as to hit the target
    That would explain me being as healthy as a butcher's dog
    I've felt like crap since I stopped drinking heavily.
    Have your thumbs gone weird?
    Nothing works any more. I'm a wretch
    I hope more of you works than I’ve got left. Two almost useless hands, a dodgy ankle and dreadful balance. Typing with one finger!
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,557
    Scott_xP said:

    BoZo is performatively scruffy.

    It doesn't speak well of the man.

    I like his scruffiness.
  • geoffwgeoffw Posts: 8,717
     
    Andy_JS said:

    Scott_xP said:

    BoZo is performatively scruffy.

    It doesn't speak well of the man.

    I like his scruffiness.
    His usp.

  • geoffwgeoffw Posts: 8,717

    malcolmg said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    kle4 said:

    tlg86 said:

    Leon said:

    If you are a British citizen that hates Brexit so much you literally *become German* then I suggest you weren’t really British in the first place

    https://www.theguardian.com/artanddesign/2022/jun/04/antony-gormley-to-become-german-citizen-due-to-tragedy-of-brexit

    “I’m embarrassed about Brexit: it’s a practical disaster, a betrayal of my parents’ and grandparents’ sacrifice to make a Europe that was not going to be divided again. It’s a tragedy,”

    .
    I have no issue with people changing nationalities if they do not like what their present nation is doing, including over Brexit, but it does seem a bit much to suggest not being part of the EU is a betrayal of parents and grandparents as if everyone had been fighting explicitly for the intent of creating a supranational institution.

    Brexit was, in my view, a mistake that I contributed to, but there is a difference between 'divided to the point of war' and 'not all being part of the EU'.

    People also cannot seem to make up their minds if it was a betrayal of the older generation (even though the majority of those voted for it) or a betrayal of the younger generation. It could be they think it was both, but mentioning one only seems to suggest this person does not think that.
    Absolutely so

    He could have said “I don’t like Brexit, I disagree with it, I believe it is an error, but the British people were free to choose as they did. However I will now take up German citizenship, as it my right, so I can retain my European citizenship and my Freedom of Movement”

    But he didn’t say that. He’s gone way way further and is, in effect, saying Brexit was a sin or a crime - or both. Morally wrong. Should not have been allowed. Which is absurd. It was a choice to exit a quasi Federal union, as was our right under Article 50 of the fucking EU Constitution which they immorally forced on us, so fuck em. And him. I’m going to push over one off his stupid statues when and if I ever get home

    *knocks back more Tsinandali wine in his Georgian park*
    God Leon, give your liver a rest.

    I hardly drink, and i'm having to take liver tests atm.
    You clearly missed the Times article which said people that drink “two bottles of wine a day” are healthier, happier and longer lived than teetotallers and modest drinkers. I took it as a cue to up my consumption by about a quarter of a bottle a day, so as to hit the target
    That would explain me being as healthy as a butcher's dog
    I've felt like crap since I stopped drinking heavily.
    Have your thumbs gone weird?
    Nothing works any more. I'm a wretch
    I hope more of you works than I’ve got left. Two almost useless hands, a dodgy ankle and dreadful balance. Typing with one finger!
    More power to your finger OKC!

  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,135

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    dixiedean said:

    dixiedean said:

    Open ridicule, booing and laughter for Andrew Griffith on Any Answers.
    This is on the Isle of Wight, too.

    Yes, though pedantically you'll probably find that Any Answers is on after Any Questions, rather than before.
    Indeed.
    The audience is ferociously hostile to the government. To a degree I've never heard before. It's growing, not fading away.

    And yet, if that were true, we’d be seeing polling as happened to Major’s government in the mid 90s, with Blair’s Labour 20 points ahead

    We’re not seeing that. What we see is a standard mid term poll lead for an opposition facing a tired government

    I hate to drop the B-bomb word so liberally, but I suggest a lot of this anger at Boris and the Tories is actually sublimated Remoaner angst and loathing of Leaver Boris, but this time channeled through a new rage at his partying frivolity

    I’m not defending him, btw, it IS time for him to eff off
    I don't think that is true. Johnson is seen now less as an evil enemy - which is how many opponents saw Thatcher, Major and Blair - and more as a figure of utter derision and scorn. And that is an impression that has spread beyond those who just naturally oppose him and on to many who would normally support a Conservative government. Yes it may be wishful thinking on my part but I simply see no way back when he has become so derided.
    Nah

    Look at the people who are most performatively angered by his partying and most hysterically eager to see him go. They are nearly all Remoaners

    And maybe they should have their slaughtered lamb. Maybe they will cease being so fruitlessly angry once he has gone

    I doubt it - look at @Scott_xP - but we can hope
    It's the lying. And there's nothing recent about it. It's just that more are catching on.
    They always knew, didnt care when he was lying for them but do when is lying to them.
    Yes some of that too. Legging over the EU is one thing but legging over the electorate is something else.

    Sorry for the mental image there.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,431
    geoffw said:

    malcolmg said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    kle4 said:

    tlg86 said:

    Leon said:

    If you are a British citizen that hates Brexit so much you literally *become German* then I suggest you weren’t really British in the first place

    https://www.theguardian.com/artanddesign/2022/jun/04/antony-gormley-to-become-german-citizen-due-to-tragedy-of-brexit

    “I’m embarrassed about Brexit: it’s a practical disaster, a betrayal of my parents’ and grandparents’ sacrifice to make a Europe that was not going to be divided again. It’s a tragedy,”

    .
    I have no issue with people changing nationalities if they do not like what their present nation is doing, including over Brexit, but it does seem a bit much to suggest not being part of the EU is a betrayal of parents and grandparents as if everyone had been fighting explicitly for the intent of creating a supranational institution.

    Brexit was, in my view, a mistake that I contributed to, but there is a difference between 'divided to the point of war' and 'not all being part of the EU'.

    People also cannot seem to make up their minds if it was a betrayal of the older generation (even though the majority of those voted for it) or a betrayal of the younger generation. It could be they think it was both, but mentioning one only seems to suggest this person does not think that.
    Absolutely so

    He could have said “I don’t like Brexit, I disagree with it, I believe it is an error, but the British people were free to choose as they did. However I will now take up German citizenship, as it my right, so I can retain my European citizenship and my Freedom of Movement”

    But he didn’t say that. He’s gone way way further and is, in effect, saying Brexit was a sin or a crime - or both. Morally wrong. Should not have been allowed. Which is absurd. It was a choice to exit a quasi Federal union, as was our right under Article 50 of the fucking EU Constitution which they immorally forced on us, so fuck em. And him. I’m going to push over one off his stupid statues when and if I ever get home

    *knocks back more Tsinandali wine in his Georgian park*
    God Leon, give your liver a rest.

    I hardly drink, and i'm having to take liver tests atm.
    You clearly missed the Times article which said people that drink “two bottles of wine a day” are healthier, happier and longer lived than teetotallers and modest drinkers. I took it as a cue to up my consumption by about a quarter of a bottle a day, so as to hit the target
    That would explain me being as healthy as a butcher's dog
    I've felt like crap since I stopped drinking heavily.
    Have your thumbs gone weird?
    Nothing works any more. I'm a wretch
    I hope more of you works than I’ve got left. Two almost useless hands, a dodgy ankle and dreadful balance. Typing with one finger!
    More power to your finger OKC!

    Thx
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,402
    IanB2 said:

    Mourdant would clearly be an improvement on Johnson but she was a Cameronite under Cameron, a Mayite under May and now a Loserite under Johnson

    What does she believe? Why is she different to the last thirteen years of Tory failure?

    She also not only participated in that risible ‘Leadsom for Leader’ march on Westminster - which turned out to be illegal as they never got police permission - but she was the bright spark whose idea it was in the first place!
    Fortunately, no law against "annoying" protest marches then.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 35,990
    Andy_JS said:

    I like his scruffiness.

    You and a succession of women...


  • dixiedean said:

    IanB2 said:

    Mourdant would clearly be an improvement on Johnson but she was a Cameronite under Cameron, a Mayite under May and now a Loserite under Johnson

    What does she believe? Why is she different to the last thirteen years of Tory failure?

    She also not only participated in that risible ‘Leadsom for Leader’ march on Westminster - which turned out to be illegal as they never got police permission - but she was the bright spark whose idea it was in the first place!
    Fortunately, no law against "annoying" protest marches then.
    Protests against Tories = bad
    Protests for Tories = good
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,565

    malcolmg said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    kle4 said:

    tlg86 said:

    Leon said:

    If you are a British citizen that hates Brexit so much you literally *become German* then I suggest you weren’t really British in the first place

    https://www.theguardian.com/artanddesign/2022/jun/04/antony-gormley-to-become-german-citizen-due-to-tragedy-of-brexit

    “I’m embarrassed about Brexit: it’s a practical disaster, a betrayal of my parents’ and grandparents’ sacrifice to make a Europe that was not going to be divided again. It’s a tragedy,”

    .
    I have no issue with people changing nationalities if they do not like what their present nation is doing, including over Brexit, but it does seem a bit much to suggest not being part of the EU is a betrayal of parents and grandparents as if everyone had been fighting explicitly for the intent of creating a supranational institution.

    Brexit was, in my view, a mistake that I contributed to, but there is a difference between 'divided to the point of war' and 'not all being part of the EU'.

    People also cannot seem to make up their minds if it was a betrayal of the older generation (even though the majority of those voted for it) or a betrayal of the younger generation. It could be they think it was both, but mentioning one only seems to suggest this person does not think that.
    Absolutely so

    He could have said “I don’t like Brexit, I disagree with it, I believe it is an error, but the British people were free to choose as they did. However I will now take up German citizenship, as it my right, so I can retain my European citizenship and my Freedom of Movement”

    But he didn’t say that. He’s gone way way further and is, in effect, saying Brexit was a sin or a crime - or both. Morally wrong. Should not have been allowed. Which is absurd. It was a choice to exit a quasi Federal union, as was our right under Article 50 of the fucking EU Constitution which they immorally forced on us, so fuck em. And him. I’m going to push over one off his stupid statues when and if I ever get home

    *knocks back more Tsinandali wine in his Georgian park*
    God Leon, give your liver a rest.

    I hardly drink, and i'm having to take liver tests atm.
    You clearly missed the Times article which said people that drink “two bottles of wine a day” are healthier, happier and longer lived than teetotallers and modest drinkers. I took it as a cue to up my consumption by about a quarter of a bottle a day, so as to hit the target
    That would explain me being as healthy as a butcher's dog
    I've felt like crap since I stopped drinking heavily.
    Have your thumbs gone weird?
    Nothing works any more. I'm a wretch
    I hope more of you works than I’ve got left. Two almost useless hands, a dodgy ankle and dreadful balance. Typing with one finger!
    Sorry to be the bearer of bad news - but it may be your best windsurfing days are behind you....
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,135

    Roger said:

    kinabalu said:

    One of Johnson's many flaws is that he has surrounded himself with pygmies so as to avoid threats to his position. The worry has to be that one of them (Patel!) could replace him. Mordaunt has gone very quiet but she could impress in a leadership contest.

    I can't see Patel getting into the top two in the Parliamentary party first round. Mordaunt is a lot more likely
    I'm on Mordaunt at good odds. Can easily see her emerging as the choice.
    Do all candidates have to appear like this or just the female ones

    https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/2486207/tory-mp-penny-mordaunt-drops-her-fella/
    Labour and the left need to be terrified of Mourdant, in just two minutes here she says more than Starmer has said in two years.

    https://twitter.com/sturdyalex/status/1471409989269004294?lang=en

    And it’s exactly what the British People want to hear of their place in this world, and she is so persuasive how she explains these things.

    Take that HY, if you think the Big Dog as he has made himself today can possibly compete with a PM Mourdant.
    Tipped her at 60s ages ago.

    I seem to have lost my way on the horses but I still have it on the old politics.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,431
    dixiedean said:

    IanB2 said:

    Mourdant would clearly be an improvement on Johnson but she was a Cameronite under Cameron, a Mayite under May and now a Loserite under Johnson

    What does she believe? Why is she different to the last thirteen years of Tory failure?

    She also not only participated in that risible ‘Leadsom for Leader’ march on Westminster - which turned out to be illegal as they never got police permission - but she was the bright spark whose idea it was in the first place!
    Fortunately, no law against "annoying" protest marches then.
    Take it Priti Patel wasn’t involved.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 28,432
    IanB2 said:

    Mourdant would clearly be an improvement on Johnson but she was a Cameronite under Cameron, a Mayite under May and now a Loserite under Johnson

    What does she believe? Why is she different to the last thirteen years of Tory failure?

    She also not only participated in that risible ‘Leadsom for Leader’ march on Westminster - which turned out to be illegal as they never got police permission - but she was the bright spark whose idea it was in the first place!
    Oh dear, that's pretty slim pickings isn't it? Gonna have to do a bit better than that.
  • kinabalu said:

    Roger said:

    kinabalu said:

    One of Johnson's many flaws is that he has surrounded himself with pygmies so as to avoid threats to his position. The worry has to be that one of them (Patel!) could replace him. Mordaunt has gone very quiet but she could impress in a leadership contest.

    I can't see Patel getting into the top two in the Parliamentary party first round. Mordaunt is a lot more likely
    I'm on Mordaunt at good odds. Can easily see her emerging as the choice.
    Do all candidates have to appear like this or just the female ones

    https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/2486207/tory-mp-penny-mordaunt-drops-her-fella/
    Labour and the left need to be terrified of Mourdant, in just two minutes here she says more than Starmer has said in two years.

    https://twitter.com/sturdyalex/status/1471409989269004294?lang=en

    And it’s exactly what the British People want to hear of their place in this world, and she is so persuasive how she explains these things.

    Take that HY, if you think the Big Dog as he has made himself today can possibly compete with a PM Mourdant.
    Tipped her at 60s ages ago.

    I seem to have lost my way on the horses but I still have it on the old politics.
    You’re on fire
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,838

    Leon said:

    If you are a British citizen that hates Brexit so much you literally *become German* then I suggest you weren’t really British in the first place

    https://www.theguardian.com/artanddesign/2022/jun/04/antony-gormley-to-become-german-citizen-due-to-tragedy-of-brexit

    A brilliant artist, but I can't help but think his energy would be better directed at crafting a vast sculpture to the Ukrainian spirit....
    I agree, but that might not go down too well with the current government of his new nationality. I'm afraid that many British intellectuals have an exaggerated view of the deficiencies of Britain and far too rosy a view of other Western European countries. Afd (well to the right of UKIP) is polling above maximum UKIP support and the current German chancellor has behaved abominably with respect to Ukraine.
    Negative Nationalism has been the default position for “intellectuals” since the Napoleonic Wars.
    If you are of that view, then surely they were moaning about negative anti-British intellectuals *before* that. Atd the time of the French Revolution. At the time of the English Revolution, come to think of it ...
This discussion has been closed.