Drakeford's destroying North Wales holiday industry from Cardiff
Tourism leaders in Wales have reacted with horror to confirmation of new occupancy rules for second homes and holiday lets. From April 1, 2023, the Welsh Government will insist that self-catering properties are let for at least 182 days each year in a move critics say will “decimate” the Welsh tourism industry.
Holiday lettings firm Finest Retreats, which promotes 29 holiday cottages in Wales, warned the challenging occupancy target will hit rural economies the hardest by driving up prices and making the country a “less attractive place to visit”. Tom Giffard, Welsh Conservative shadow tourism minister said it was a “devastating blow”, adding: “These new letting requirements will frankly be impossible for many self-caterers to meet.”
The Wales Tourism Alliance (WTA), which represents 6,000 tourism operators in Wales, believes 84% of the country's holiday lets could now be forced to close. WTA chair Suzy Davies said genuine holiday businesses will be caught up in a policy designed to clamp down on second homes. “Like dolphins accidentally caught in fishing nets, these businesses will die,” she cautioned.
On Tuesday, finance minister Rebecca Evans issued a written statement confirming Cardiff was pushing ahead with its plans despite opposition from the tourism sector. As with the Welsh Government’s new council tax policies, the approach is designed to tackle the housing crisis in Welsh-speaking communities in holiday hotspots.
The minister acknowledged that the stronger criteria “may be challenging for some operators to meet”. But she said: “The purpose of the change is to help ensure property owners are making a fair contribution to local communities, for example by increasing their contribution to the local economy through greater letting activity, or by paying council tax on their properties.”
To continue paying business rates, holiday rentals must be let for 182 days from April 1, 2023. Currently, the threshold is just 70 days. If holidays fail to meet the threshold, they pay council tax instead - and from April 2023 local counties will have the power to charge a council tax premium of up to 300%, effectively quadrupling bills.
Sorry, this looks like great news. Why should properties that are empty for 294 days a year get a tax break? Let people live there instead of keeping them empty for occasional holidaymakers. Good work Welsh Labour.
You clearly do not understand just how toxic this is for Welsh labour here in the heart of the North Wales holiday industry which is about to have a tourist tax put on them from Drakeford as well
Maybe I just care about affordable housing more. Your empty-house policy leaves me as cold as a homeless person.
Destroying the holiday industry losing thousands of jobs in businesses across North Wales is madness and could only be dreamt up by a Corbynista who just does not understand the local economy and simply does not care
And scroll on a page, you'll see that North Wales's figures are actually the strongest in Wales, averaging at 64%.
Even if a number of providers decide to drop out of the market, all that will do is increase the occupancy in competitors.
No, sorry, it seems you've been taken in by a scare story. The numbers don't fit at all with the apocalyptic predictions. Welsh Labour derangement syndrome, as Leon would probably call it.
This combined with the tourist tax will hit the holiday industry and believe you me it features all the time in the local media and Welsh news as various businesses forecast a fall in visitor numbers and a loss of holiday accommodation
No, sorry, I don't believe you me.
Apart from anything you're pretending the tourist industry is solely based around the kind of self-catering accommodation being referred to. Hotels, camping & caravans are a big part of the tourist industry, and non self-catering accommodation drives people to restaurants instead of supermarkets for their evening meal. No, the more I think about this the more I think this is a good move. Prune out the holiday lets that are underoccupied and they become either better-run lets, or housing for actual people.
You are missing the point that all these businesses you quote are about to be hit with a tourist tax on top of this
If this had been proposed for Devon and Cornwall or the Lake district you would have had a torrent of anger from the holiday industry
And by the way I do not lie
Tim Farron is running for re-election on the very question of holiday lets. They aren't greatly popular in the Lakes with the locals who tend to rather priorities having somewhere to live.
Yes but they bring in the income that no doubt supports many of their jobs
There is a balance to be struck but applying a tourist tax and reducing holiday accommodation is not one of them
They don't bring in any income if they are empty. And reducing holiday accommodation is smack bang what Farron thinks will keep him his seat. He probably knows better than me what the locals think.
Another way in which the article is silly is that this could encourage prices DOWN. Think about it. You can offer discounts on midweek off-season stays if the guest is staying the weekend. That might encourage some people to stay an extra day or two. That brings in more money, it doesn't increase the costs associated with booking, checking in and out, or other flat rates. The local economy gets a boost and the guests get more holiday without it breaking the bank. Everyone's a winner, except people who prefer to moan at the Welsh government for partisan reasons.
North Wales is depopulating.
The growth of holiday accommodation/second homes is caused by economic policy.
If there are no jobs, then there is rural depopulation. The consequent growth in holiday accommodation is caused by the depopulation -- not the other way round. There are empty houses that can be bought cheaply and turned into holiday lets. If they were not holiday lets, they'd fall into disrepair.
There are plenty of falling down, sad, derelict houses in almost all areas of North Wales. People used to live in those houses. They don't now because of depopulation.
As for your ideas in holiday lets in Wales in the winter -- they are bonkers.
Most tourist attractions in North Wales are shut in low season. Most restaurants are shut then (or have very limited hours).
No one is going to go and spend a few extra days in the middle of winter at Talsarnau, when there is nothing to do, nothing is open and the weather is wet, just because of Drakeford's idiotic policy.
I don't think Drakeford's plan makes much sense, apart from in some of the coastal resorts where second homes are a real problem (e.g. Aberdyfi, Tenby, Abersoch, Gwyr). In the rest of the country @Big_G_NorthWales is right -- they will destroy businesses and value.
I think that is very astute analysis.
Its an interesting debate and one, as a total outsider, I think many people are making good points which may or not be relevant to the particular issues of holiday lets in Wales.
Or to put it another way a policy which may make sense in the Lakes District may not in the Peak District or North Wales.
Yet its easy to assume that similar policies would have similar effects in seemingly similar areas.
Also spot on. North Wales does not have a problem with a lack of affordable housing for workers. By contrast, the Lake District does.
As does the Peak District.
But I'll guess that in the Lakes its holiday homes whereas in the Peaks its commuters to Sheffield, Manchester etc.
Drakeford's destroying North Wales holiday industry from Cardiff
Tourism leaders in Wales have reacted with horror to confirmation of new occupancy rules for second homes and holiday lets. From April 1, 2023, the Welsh Government will insist that self-catering properties are let for at least 182 days each year in a move critics say will “decimate” the Welsh tourism industry.
Holiday lettings firm Finest Retreats, which promotes 29 holiday cottages in Wales, warned the challenging occupancy target will hit rural economies the hardest by driving up prices and making the country a “less attractive place to visit”. Tom Giffard, Welsh Conservative shadow tourism minister said it was a “devastating blow”, adding: “These new letting requirements will frankly be impossible for many self-caterers to meet.”
The Wales Tourism Alliance (WTA), which represents 6,000 tourism operators in Wales, believes 84% of the country's holiday lets could now be forced to close. WTA chair Suzy Davies said genuine holiday businesses will be caught up in a policy designed to clamp down on second homes. “Like dolphins accidentally caught in fishing nets, these businesses will die,” she cautioned.
On Tuesday, finance minister Rebecca Evans issued a written statement confirming Cardiff was pushing ahead with its plans despite opposition from the tourism sector. As with the Welsh Government’s new council tax policies, the approach is designed to tackle the housing crisis in Welsh-speaking communities in holiday hotspots.
The minister acknowledged that the stronger criteria “may be challenging for some operators to meet”. But she said: “The purpose of the change is to help ensure property owners are making a fair contribution to local communities, for example by increasing their contribution to the local economy through greater letting activity, or by paying council tax on their properties.”
To continue paying business rates, holiday rentals must be let for 182 days from April 1, 2023. Currently, the threshold is just 70 days. If holidays fail to meet the threshold, they pay council tax instead - and from April 2023 local counties will have the power to charge a council tax premium of up to 300%, effectively quadrupling bills.
Sorry, this looks like great news. Why should properties that are empty for 294 days a year get a tax break? Let people live there instead of keeping them empty for occasional holidaymakers. Good work Welsh Labour.
You clearly do not understand just how toxic this is for Welsh labour here in the heart of the North Wales holiday industry which is about to have a tourist tax put on them from Drakeford as well
Maybe I just care about affordable housing more. Your empty-house policy leaves me as cold as a homeless person.
Destroying the holiday industry losing thousands of jobs in businesses across North Wales is madness and could only be dreamt up by a Corbynista who just does not understand the local economy and simply does not care
And scroll on a page, you'll see that North Wales's figures are actually the strongest in Wales, averaging at 64%.
Even if a number of providers decide to drop out of the market, all that will do is increase the occupancy in competitors.
No, sorry, it seems you've been taken in by a scare story. The numbers don't fit at all with the apocalyptic predictions. Welsh Labour derangement syndrome, as Leon would probably call it.
This combined with the tourist tax will hit the holiday industry and believe you me it features all the time in the local media and Welsh news as various businesses forecast a fall in visitor numbers and a loss of holiday accommodation
No, sorry, I don't believe you me.
Apart from anything you're pretending the tourist industry is solely based around the kind of self-catering accommodation being referred to. Hotels, camping & caravans are a big part of the tourist industry, and non self-catering accommodation drives people to restaurants instead of supermarkets for their evening meal. No, the more I think about this the more I think this is a good move. Prune out the holiday lets that are underoccupied and they become either better-run lets, or housing for actual people.
You are missing the point that all these businesses you quote are about to be hit with a tourist tax on top of this
If this had been proposed for Devon and Cornwall or the Lake district you would have had a torrent of anger from the holiday industry
And by the way I do not lie
Tim Farron is running for re-election on the very question of holiday lets. They aren't greatly popular in the Lakes with the locals who tend to rather priorities having somewhere to live.
Yes but they bring in the income that no doubt supports many of their jobs
There is a balance to be struck but applying a tourist tax and reducing holiday accommodation is not one of them
They don't bring in any income if they are empty. And reducing holiday accommodation is smack bang what Farron thinks will keep him his seat. He probably knows better than me what the locals think.
Another way in which the article is silly is that this could encourage prices DOWN. Think about it. You can offer discounts on midweek off-season stays if the guest is staying the weekend. That might encourage some people to stay an extra day or two. That brings in more money, it doesn't increase the costs associated with booking, checking in and out, or other flat rates. The local economy gets a boost and the guests get more holiday without it breaking the bank. Everyone's a winner, except people who prefer to moan at the Welsh government for partisan reasons.
You don't need to be partisan to moan at the Welsh government. They're so useless and out of date that if they were trying ferry procurement they'd end up trying to convert narrow gauge steam engines into amphibious vehicles.
However, Big G is right in this case. The tourism industry in Wales is extremely seasonal - it effectively only runs from May to September and not every week in that time is busy. If this policy goes ahead it will whether intentionally or not shut down all the self-catering outside Cardiff itself. That will have an extremely nasty knock-on effect on tourism as a whole.
It's not a lot of use making houses more affordable if there are no jobs in the area anyway.
Did you miss the figures I linked to earlier showing occupancy rates in Wales averaging along at about 55% for this type of accommodation? And North Wales occupancy rates are the highest in Wales? That doesn't really fit at all with what you're saying.
Also, if you have legitimate gripes with the Welsh government, fine and dandy. But as soon as you scratch the surface of the scare piece that G posted, you can see that it's just silly. That's why this is partisan moaning, not sensible criticism. The numbers simply do not support the idea that this would be have "extremely nasty" effects. This is a good policy.
I had not seen them. I have to say having lived in Wales for many years and knowing several people working in tourism there I find those figures surprising and somewhat implausible. Do you still have the link? If it's a Welsh government website, harsh though it may sound I would say don't trust it. I loathe Boris Johnson, but he runs a tighter ship (and not in an alcoholic sense) than Drakeford.
About the only thing to say in favour of Plaid Llafur is that they're not Y Ceidwadwyr Cymru.
I don't really know what to say about you not trusting government publications. I don't want to pooh pooh that out of hand because scepticism is healthy, but it's an extraordinary claim that would require extraordinary evidence.
Well, I can't give you evidence, because it grows out of my observations at close quarters. All I can tell you is that my personal experience, having worked for them, is that I would trust Boris Johnson ahead of an official of the Welsh Government.
And I would struggle to trust Boris Johnson if he told me rain was wet.
Thank you for the link, I will check it out. But I am deeply sceptical of this idea and the value of the stats.
Do that, and keep in mind what's being proposed here. Drakeford isn't carting B&B owners off to Siberia. The policy is really quite reasonable. Charging houses that are sat empty council tax instead of business rates. The article G pasted is really a total overreaction.
If it was reasonably why is the holiday industry in uproar and name anywhere else in the UK that is going to impose a tourist tax
“The Kremlin is considering a second assault on Kyiv despite failing to capture the Ukrainian capital at the outset of the war, according to the independent news website, Meduza.
Sources close to the Kremlin and inside the Putin administration said confidence has spread to the leadership of United Russia, the country’s ruling political party, that a full-scale victory in Ukraine is possible before the end of the year.
One source said:
We’ll grind them [the Ukrainians] down in the end. The whole thing will probably be over by the fall.
Russia’s leadership has “minimum” and “maximum” thresholds for declaring a successful and completed “special military operation” in Ukraine, sources said.
The bare minimum needed to declare victory is the complete capture of the Donbas region, according to sources, while the maximum goal would be the capture of Kyiv.
The editor of the English-language edition of Meduza, Kevin Rothrock, said the report suggests that Ukraine is losing the “information war” for the first time since the invasion.
Many ways to interpret this: (1) the mood inside the Kremlin shifts faster than a temperamental teen’s, (2) Kyiv’s alarm-signaling is largely about expediting/sustaining Western aid, (3) Western fatigue is real (the energy crisis & U.S. midterms mean a whole new ballgame soon)”
I reckon this means WW3
Most likely it will end up a prolonged war of attrition in the Donbas. It won't be WW3 unless Russia invades a NATO state
I agree. My impression (but what do I know?) is that Russia will get to the edge of Donbas in a month or two, but the flow of Western arms will then encourage the Ukrainians to counter-attack. I suspect we'll then see a war of attirition, as HYUFD says, and eventually there will be an uneasy cease-fire.
WW3? Nah.
I think it more probable that something will crack, probably the Russian war machine followed by the Russian state.
Drakeford's destroying North Wales holiday industry from Cardiff
Tourism leaders in Wales have reacted with horror to confirmation of new occupancy rules for second homes and holiday lets. From April 1, 2023, the Welsh Government will insist that self-catering properties are let for at least 182 days each year in a move critics say will “decimate” the Welsh tourism industry.
Holiday lettings firm Finest Retreats, which promotes 29 holiday cottages in Wales, warned the challenging occupancy target will hit rural economies the hardest by driving up prices and making the country a “less attractive place to visit”. Tom Giffard, Welsh Conservative shadow tourism minister said it was a “devastating blow”, adding: “These new letting requirements will frankly be impossible for many self-caterers to meet.”
The Wales Tourism Alliance (WTA), which represents 6,000 tourism operators in Wales, believes 84% of the country's holiday lets could now be forced to close. WTA chair Suzy Davies said genuine holiday businesses will be caught up in a policy designed to clamp down on second homes. “Like dolphins accidentally caught in fishing nets, these businesses will die,” she cautioned.
On Tuesday, finance minister Rebecca Evans issued a written statement confirming Cardiff was pushing ahead with its plans despite opposition from the tourism sector. As with the Welsh Government’s new council tax policies, the approach is designed to tackle the housing crisis in Welsh-speaking communities in holiday hotspots.
The minister acknowledged that the stronger criteria “may be challenging for some operators to meet”. But she said: “The purpose of the change is to help ensure property owners are making a fair contribution to local communities, for example by increasing their contribution to the local economy through greater letting activity, or by paying council tax on their properties.”
To continue paying business rates, holiday rentals must be let for 182 days from April 1, 2023. Currently, the threshold is just 70 days. If holidays fail to meet the threshold, they pay council tax instead - and from April 2023 local counties will have the power to charge a council tax premium of up to 300%, effectively quadrupling bills.
Sorry, this looks like great news. Why should properties that are empty for 294 days a year get a tax break? Let people live there instead of keeping them empty for occasional holidaymakers. Good work Welsh Labour.
You clearly do not understand just how toxic this is for Welsh labour here in the heart of the North Wales holiday industry which is about to have a tourist tax put on them from Drakeford as well
Maybe I just care about affordable housing more. Your empty-house policy leaves me as cold as a homeless person.
Destroying the holiday industry losing thousands of jobs in businesses across North Wales is madness and could only be dreamt up by a Corbynista who just does not understand the local economy and simply does not care
And scroll on a page, you'll see that North Wales's figures are actually the strongest in Wales, averaging at 64%.
Even if a number of providers decide to drop out of the market, all that will do is increase the occupancy in competitors.
No, sorry, it seems you've been taken in by a scare story. The numbers don't fit at all with the apocalyptic predictions. Welsh Labour derangement syndrome, as Leon would probably call it.
This combined with the tourist tax will hit the holiday industry and believe you me it features all the time in the local media and Welsh news as various businesses forecast a fall in visitor numbers and a loss of holiday accommodation
No, sorry, I don't believe you me.
Apart from anything you're pretending the tourist industry is solely based around the kind of self-catering accommodation being referred to. Hotels, camping & caravans are a big part of the tourist industry, and non self-catering accommodation drives people to restaurants instead of supermarkets for their evening meal. No, the more I think about this the more I think this is a good move. Prune out the holiday lets that are underoccupied and they become either better-run lets, or housing for actual people.
You are missing the point that all these businesses you quote are about to be hit with a tourist tax on top of this
If this had been proposed for Devon and Cornwall or the Lake district you would have had a torrent of anger from the holiday industry
And by the way I do not lie
Tim Farron is running for re-election on the very question of holiday lets. They aren't greatly popular in the Lakes with the locals who tend to rather priorities having somewhere to live.
Yes but they bring in the income that no doubt supports many of their jobs
There is a balance to be struck but applying a tourist tax and reducing holiday accommodation is not one of them
They don't bring in any income if they are empty. And reducing holiday accommodation is smack bang what Farron thinks will keep him his seat. He probably knows better than me what the locals think.
Another way in which the article is silly is that this could encourage prices DOWN. Think about it. You can offer discounts on midweek off-season stays if the guest is staying the weekend. That might encourage some people to stay an extra day or two. That brings in more money, it doesn't increase the costs associated with booking, checking in and out, or other flat rates. The local economy gets a boost and the guests get more holiday without it breaking the bank. Everyone's a winner, except people who prefer to moan at the Welsh government for partisan reasons.
North Wales is depopulating.
The growth of holiday accommodation/second homes is caused by economic policy.
If there are no jobs, then there is rural depopulation. The consequent growth in holiday accommodation is caused by the depopulation -- not the other way round. There are empty houses that can be bought cheaply and turned into holiday lets. If they were not holiday lets, they'd fall into disrepair.
There are plenty of falling down, sad, derelict houses in almost all areas of North Wales. People used to live in those houses. They don't now because of depopulation.
As for your ideas in holiday lets in Wales in the winter -- they are bonkers.
Most tourist attractions in North Wales are shut in low season. Most restaurants are shut then (or have very limited hours).
No one is going to go and spend a few extra days in the middle of winter at Talsarnau, when there is nothing to do, nothing is open and the weather is wet, just because of Drakeford's idiotic policy.
I don't think Drakeford's plan makes much sense, apart from in some of the coastal resorts where second homes are a real problem (e.g. Aberdyfi, Tenby, Abersoch, Gwyr). In the rest of the country @Big_G_NorthWales is right -- they will destroy businesses and value.
I would respectively suggest to those who clearly do not know or experience our holiday industry, that I trust those in the industry here who are issuing warnings to Cardiff of the economic damage their policies including the ridiculous tourist tax are going to inflict on the whole North Wales area
Setting aside your passive-aggressive subtweeting style (you do that a lot, by the way), you've come at this debate in a wholly fact-free manner. You entered with adjectives and you hit a wall of facts you don't seem to know what to do with.
“The Kremlin is considering a second assault on Kyiv despite failing to capture the Ukrainian capital at the outset of the war, according to the independent news website, Meduza.
Sources close to the Kremlin and inside the Putin administration said confidence has spread to the leadership of United Russia, the country’s ruling political party, that a full-scale victory in Ukraine is possible before the end of the year.
One source said:
We’ll grind them [the Ukrainians] down in the end. The whole thing will probably be over by the fall.
Russia’s leadership has “minimum” and “maximum” thresholds for declaring a successful and completed “special military operation” in Ukraine, sources said.
The bare minimum needed to declare victory is the complete capture of the Donbas region, according to sources, while the maximum goal would be the capture of Kyiv.
The editor of the English-language edition of Meduza, Kevin Rothrock, said the report suggests that Ukraine is losing the “information war” for the first time since the invasion.
Many ways to interpret this: (1) the mood inside the Kremlin shifts faster than a temperamental teen’s, (2) Kyiv’s alarm-signaling is largely about expediting/sustaining Western aid, (3) Western fatigue is real (the energy crisis & U.S. midterms mean a whole new ballgame soon)”
I reckon this means WW3
Most likely it will end up a prolonged war of attrition in the Donbas. It won't be WW3 unless Russia invades a NATO state
I agree. My impression (but what do I know?) is that Russia will get to the edge of Donbas in a month or two, but the flow of Western arms will then encourage the Ukrainians to counter-attack. I suspect we'll then see a war of attirition, as HYUFD says, and eventually there will be an uneasy cease-fire.
WW3? Nah.
I think it more probable that something will crack, probably the Russian war machine followed by the Russian state.
Drakeford's destroying North Wales holiday industry from Cardiff
Tourism leaders in Wales have reacted with horror to confirmation of new occupancy rules for second homes and holiday lets. From April 1, 2023, the Welsh Government will insist that self-catering properties are let for at least 182 days each year in a move critics say will “decimate” the Welsh tourism industry.
Holiday lettings firm Finest Retreats, which promotes 29 holiday cottages in Wales, warned the challenging occupancy target will hit rural economies the hardest by driving up prices and making the country a “less attractive place to visit”. Tom Giffard, Welsh Conservative shadow tourism minister said it was a “devastating blow”, adding: “These new letting requirements will frankly be impossible for many self-caterers to meet.”
The Wales Tourism Alliance (WTA), which represents 6,000 tourism operators in Wales, believes 84% of the country's holiday lets could now be forced to close. WTA chair Suzy Davies said genuine holiday businesses will be caught up in a policy designed to clamp down on second homes. “Like dolphins accidentally caught in fishing nets, these businesses will die,” she cautioned.
On Tuesday, finance minister Rebecca Evans issued a written statement confirming Cardiff was pushing ahead with its plans despite opposition from the tourism sector. As with the Welsh Government’s new council tax policies, the approach is designed to tackle the housing crisis in Welsh-speaking communities in holiday hotspots.
The minister acknowledged that the stronger criteria “may be challenging for some operators to meet”. But she said: “The purpose of the change is to help ensure property owners are making a fair contribution to local communities, for example by increasing their contribution to the local economy through greater letting activity, or by paying council tax on their properties.”
To continue paying business rates, holiday rentals must be let for 182 days from April 1, 2023. Currently, the threshold is just 70 days. If holidays fail to meet the threshold, they pay council tax instead - and from April 2023 local counties will have the power to charge a council tax premium of up to 300%, effectively quadrupling bills.
Sorry, this looks like great news. Why should properties that are empty for 294 days a year get a tax break? Let people live there instead of keeping them empty for occasional holidaymakers. Good work Welsh Labour.
You clearly do not understand just how toxic this is for Welsh labour here in the heart of the North Wales holiday industry which is about to have a tourist tax put on them from Drakeford as well
Maybe I just care about affordable housing more. Your empty-house policy leaves me as cold as a homeless person.
Destroying the holiday industry losing thousands of jobs in businesses across North Wales is madness and could only be dreamt up by a Corbynista who just does not understand the local economy and simply does not care
And scroll on a page, you'll see that North Wales's figures are actually the strongest in Wales, averaging at 64%.
Even if a number of providers decide to drop out of the market, all that will do is increase the occupancy in competitors.
No, sorry, it seems you've been taken in by a scare story. The numbers don't fit at all with the apocalyptic predictions. Welsh Labour derangement syndrome, as Leon would probably call it.
This combined with the tourist tax will hit the holiday industry and believe you me it features all the time in the local media and Welsh news as various businesses forecast a fall in visitor numbers and a loss of holiday accommodation
No, sorry, I don't believe you me.
Apart from anything you're pretending the tourist industry is solely based around the kind of self-catering accommodation being referred to. Hotels, camping & caravans are a big part of the tourist industry, and non self-catering accommodation drives people to restaurants instead of supermarkets for their evening meal. No, the more I think about this the more I think this is a good move. Prune out the holiday lets that are underoccupied and they become either better-run lets, or housing for actual people.
You are missing the point that all these businesses you quote are about to be hit with a tourist tax on top of this
If this had been proposed for Devon and Cornwall or the Lake district you would have had a torrent of anger from the holiday industry
And by the way I do not lie
Tim Farron is running for re-election on the very question of holiday lets. They aren't greatly popular in the Lakes with the locals who tend to rather priorities having somewhere to live.
Yes but they bring in the income that no doubt supports many of their jobs
There is a balance to be struck but applying a tourist tax and reducing holiday accommodation is not one of them
They don't bring in any income if they are empty. And reducing holiday accommodation is smack bang what Farron thinks will keep him his seat. He probably knows better than me what the locals think.
Another way in which the article is silly is that this could encourage prices DOWN. Think about it. You can offer discounts on midweek off-season stays if the guest is staying the weekend. That might encourage some people to stay an extra day or two. That brings in more money, it doesn't increase the costs associated with booking, checking in and out, or other flat rates. The local economy gets a boost and the guests get more holiday without it breaking the bank. Everyone's a winner, except people who prefer to moan at the Welsh government for partisan reasons.
North Wales is depopulating.
The growth of holiday accommodation/second homes is caused by economic policy.
If there are no jobs, then there is rural depopulation. The consequent growth in holiday accommodation is caused by the depopulation -- not the other way round. There are empty houses that can be bought cheaply and turned into holiday lets. If they were not holiday lets, they'd fall into disrepair.
There are plenty of falling down, sad, derelict houses in almost all areas of North Wales. People used to live in those houses. They don't now because of depopulation.
As for your ideas in holiday lets in Wales in the winter -- they are bonkers.
Most tourist attractions in North Wales are shut in low season. Most restaurants are shut then (or have very limited hours).
No one is going to go and spend a few extra days in the middle of winter at Talsarnau, when there is nothing to do, nothing is open and the weather is wet, just because of Drakeford's idiotic policy.
I don't think Drakeford's plan makes much sense, apart from in some of the coastal resorts where second homes are a real problem (e.g. Aberdyfi, Tenby, Abersoch, Gwyr). In the rest of the country @Big_G_NorthWales is right -- they will destroy businesses and value.
Except occupancy rates are already above the thresholds that will be affected by this! This isn't a policy that will affect the average let. It's the ones that are taking up space and not generating income. An empty guest house doesn't do anything for the local economy.
As for "tourist attractions" being shut in the winter, that really depends. Museums and galleries are often open outside high season. Natural spaces like Snowdonia, Holy Island, Alyn Waters are open all year round.
I actually live in a formally very prosperous town in North Wales.
There are many houses that are just empty. I can go to my window and look out and count them. They are not second homes, they are just properties that are not let and no-one wants to live in.
I actually live in North Wales in the winter. I know the restaurants are usually shut completely in Jan & Feb, and they have restricted opening hours Oct-Mar
Museum and galleries in North Wales are almost always shut in the low season, apart from a few large attractions like Caernarfon Castle. Many CADW properties are shut in the winter.
Jesus .. you are behaving like HYUFD.
You live in Aberdeenshire, you are quoting guff from Welsh Government websites .. and everyone who knows North Wales is telling you that you are talking garbage.
If you told me something about Aberdeenshire, I'd believe you .. rather than going to google and quoting a government statistic back at you.
Drakeford's destroying North Wales holiday industry from Cardiff
Tourism leaders in Wales have reacted with horror to confirmation of new occupancy rules for second homes and holiday lets. From April 1, 2023, the Welsh Government will insist that self-catering properties are let for at least 182 days each year in a move critics say will “decimate” the Welsh tourism industry.
Holiday lettings firm Finest Retreats, which promotes 29 holiday cottages in Wales, warned the challenging occupancy target will hit rural economies the hardest by driving up prices and making the country a “less attractive place to visit”. Tom Giffard, Welsh Conservative shadow tourism minister said it was a “devastating blow”, adding: “These new letting requirements will frankly be impossible for many self-caterers to meet.”
The Wales Tourism Alliance (WTA), which represents 6,000 tourism operators in Wales, believes 84% of the country's holiday lets could now be forced to close. WTA chair Suzy Davies said genuine holiday businesses will be caught up in a policy designed to clamp down on second homes. “Like dolphins accidentally caught in fishing nets, these businesses will die,” she cautioned.
On Tuesday, finance minister Rebecca Evans issued a written statement confirming Cardiff was pushing ahead with its plans despite opposition from the tourism sector. As with the Welsh Government’s new council tax policies, the approach is designed to tackle the housing crisis in Welsh-speaking communities in holiday hotspots.
The minister acknowledged that the stronger criteria “may be challenging for some operators to meet”. But she said: “The purpose of the change is to help ensure property owners are making a fair contribution to local communities, for example by increasing their contribution to the local economy through greater letting activity, or by paying council tax on their properties.”
To continue paying business rates, holiday rentals must be let for 182 days from April 1, 2023. Currently, the threshold is just 70 days. If holidays fail to meet the threshold, they pay council tax instead - and from April 2023 local counties will have the power to charge a council tax premium of up to 300%, effectively quadrupling bills.
Sorry, this looks like great news. Why should properties that are empty for 294 days a year get a tax break? Let people live there instead of keeping them empty for occasional holidaymakers. Good work Welsh Labour.
You clearly do not understand just how toxic this is for Welsh labour here in the heart of the North Wales holiday industry which is about to have a tourist tax put on them from Drakeford as well
Maybe I just care about affordable housing more. Your empty-house policy leaves me as cold as a homeless person.
Destroying the holiday industry losing thousands of jobs in businesses across North Wales is madness and could only be dreamt up by a Corbynista who just does not understand the local economy and simply does not care
And scroll on a page, you'll see that North Wales's figures are actually the strongest in Wales, averaging at 64%.
Even if a number of providers decide to drop out of the market, all that will do is increase the occupancy in competitors.
No, sorry, it seems you've been taken in by a scare story. The numbers don't fit at all with the apocalyptic predictions. Welsh Labour derangement syndrome, as Leon would probably call it.
This combined with the tourist tax will hit the holiday industry and believe you me it features all the time in the local media and Welsh news as various businesses forecast a fall in visitor numbers and a loss of holiday accommodation
No, sorry, I don't believe you me.
Apart from anything you're pretending the tourist industry is solely based around the kind of self-catering accommodation being referred to. Hotels, camping & caravans are a big part of the tourist industry, and non self-catering accommodation drives people to restaurants instead of supermarkets for their evening meal. No, the more I think about this the more I think this is a good move. Prune out the holiday lets that are underoccupied and they become either better-run lets, or housing for actual people.
You are missing the point that all these businesses you quote are about to be hit with a tourist tax on top of this
If this had been proposed for Devon and Cornwall or the Lake district you would have had a torrent of anger from the holiday industry
And by the way I do not lie
Tim Farron is running for re-election on the very question of holiday lets. They aren't greatly popular in the Lakes with the locals who tend to rather priorities having somewhere to live.
Yes but they bring in the income that no doubt supports many of their jobs
There is a balance to be struck but applying a tourist tax and reducing holiday accommodation is not one of them
They don't bring in any income if they are empty. And reducing holiday accommodation is smack bang what Farron thinks will keep him his seat. He probably knows better than me what the locals think.
Another way in which the article is silly is that this could encourage prices DOWN. Think about it. You can offer discounts on midweek off-season stays if the guest is staying the weekend. That might encourage some people to stay an extra day or two. That brings in more money, it doesn't increase the costs associated with booking, checking in and out, or other flat rates. The local economy gets a boost and the guests get more holiday without it breaking the bank. Everyone's a winner, except people who prefer to moan at the Welsh government for partisan reasons.
You don't need to be partisan to moan at the Welsh government. They're so useless and out of date that if they were trying ferry procurement they'd end up trying to convert narrow gauge steam engines into amphibious vehicles.
However, Big G is right in this case. The tourism industry in Wales is extremely seasonal - it effectively only runs from May to September and not every week in that time is busy. If this policy goes ahead it will whether intentionally or not shut down all the self-catering outside Cardiff itself. That will have an extremely nasty knock-on effect on tourism as a whole.
It's not a lot of use making houses more affordable if there are no jobs in the area anyway.
Did you miss the figures I linked to earlier showing occupancy rates in Wales averaging along at about 55% for this type of accommodation? And North Wales occupancy rates are the highest in Wales? That doesn't really fit at all with what you're saying.
Also, if you have legitimate gripes with the Welsh government, fine and dandy. But as soon as you scratch the surface of the scare piece that G posted, you can see that it's just silly. That's why this is partisan moaning, not sensible criticism. The numbers simply do not support the idea that this would be have "extremely nasty" effects. This is a good policy.
I had not seen them. I have to say having lived in Wales for many years and knowing several people working in tourism there I find those figures surprising and somewhat implausible. Do you still have the link? If it's a Welsh government website, harsh though it may sound I would say don't trust it. I loathe Boris Johnson, but he runs a tighter ship (and not in an alcoholic sense) than Drakeford.
About the only thing to say in favour of Plaid Llafur is that they're not Y Ceidwadwyr Cymru.
I don't really know what to say about you not trusting government publications. I don't want to pooh pooh that out of hand because scepticism is healthy, but it's an extraordinary claim that would require extraordinary evidence.
Well, I can't give you evidence, because it grows out of my observations at close quarters. All I can tell you is that my personal experience, having worked for them, is that I would trust Boris Johnson ahead of an official of the Welsh Government.
And I would struggle to trust Boris Johnson if he told me rain was wet.
Thank you for the link, I will check it out. But I am deeply sceptical of this idea and the value of the stats.
Do that, and keep in mind what's being proposed here. Drakeford isn't carting B&B owners off to Siberia. The policy is really quite reasonable. Charging houses that are sat empty council tax instead of business rates. The article G pasted is really a total overreaction.
If it was reasonably why is the holiday industry in uproar and name anywhere else in the UK that is going to impose a tourist tax
Ah-ha, good question. Have you ever come across the phenomenon where people overreact to changes. It's quite common. You see it on the left with unions a lot. New workplace practices resisted by luddites who don't like progress. And you see it on the right with businesses bemoaning legislation that tries to balance up the interests of them and other interest groups like young people who want access to housing. The very fact that people are "in uproar" proves nothing. We shouldn't give in to that kind emotion-casting. One of the things Thatcher did that was right was to counter balance out the perma-outraged unions. The better way for we who like to think of ourselves as rational is to dig in under the outrage and ask questions about whether the outrage is justified and even if it is whether there are other issues here. To me like the answers here are no, and yes.
"Class" in the alphabet soup sense (C2DE etc) is a red herring in the 21st century. The professions with medium-term growth are nursing and teaching and social care, not so much architecture or accountancy. They are often not populated by kids of the upper middle-class and are often middling-paid, or precarious, and certainly not elite. Meanwhile you have pensioners and homemakers who disproportionately get shunted into E for data availability reasons, even though they must include a lot of bankers' spouses or early retirees from cushy jobs.
Drakeford's destroying North Wales holiday industry from Cardiff
Tourism leaders in Wales have reacted with horror to confirmation of new occupancy rules for second homes and holiday lets. From April 1, 2023, the Welsh Government will insist that self-catering properties are let for at least 182 days each year in a move critics say will “decimate” the Welsh tourism industry.
Holiday lettings firm Finest Retreats, which promotes 29 holiday cottages in Wales, warned the challenging occupancy target will hit rural economies the hardest by driving up prices and making the country a “less attractive place to visit”. Tom Giffard, Welsh Conservative shadow tourism minister said it was a “devastating blow”, adding: “These new letting requirements will frankly be impossible for many self-caterers to meet.”
The Wales Tourism Alliance (WTA), which represents 6,000 tourism operators in Wales, believes 84% of the country's holiday lets could now be forced to close. WTA chair Suzy Davies said genuine holiday businesses will be caught up in a policy designed to clamp down on second homes. “Like dolphins accidentally caught in fishing nets, these businesses will die,” she cautioned.
On Tuesday, finance minister Rebecca Evans issued a written statement confirming Cardiff was pushing ahead with its plans despite opposition from the tourism sector. As with the Welsh Government’s new council tax policies, the approach is designed to tackle the housing crisis in Welsh-speaking communities in holiday hotspots.
The minister acknowledged that the stronger criteria “may be challenging for some operators to meet”. But she said: “The purpose of the change is to help ensure property owners are making a fair contribution to local communities, for example by increasing their contribution to the local economy through greater letting activity, or by paying council tax on their properties.”
To continue paying business rates, holiday rentals must be let for 182 days from April 1, 2023. Currently, the threshold is just 70 days. If holidays fail to meet the threshold, they pay council tax instead - and from April 2023 local counties will have the power to charge a council tax premium of up to 300%, effectively quadrupling bills.
Sorry, this looks like great news. Why should properties that are empty for 294 days a year get a tax break? Let people live there instead of keeping them empty for occasional holidaymakers. Good work Welsh Labour.
You clearly do not understand just how toxic this is for Welsh labour here in the heart of the North Wales holiday industry which is about to have a tourist tax put on them from Drakeford as well
Maybe I just care about affordable housing more. Your empty-house policy leaves me as cold as a homeless person.
Destroying the holiday industry losing thousands of jobs in businesses across North Wales is madness and could only be dreamt up by a Corbynista who just does not understand the local economy and simply does not care
And scroll on a page, you'll see that North Wales's figures are actually the strongest in Wales, averaging at 64%.
Even if a number of providers decide to drop out of the market, all that will do is increase the occupancy in competitors.
No, sorry, it seems you've been taken in by a scare story. The numbers don't fit at all with the apocalyptic predictions. Welsh Labour derangement syndrome, as Leon would probably call it.
This combined with the tourist tax will hit the holiday industry and believe you me it features all the time in the local media and Welsh news as various businesses forecast a fall in visitor numbers and a loss of holiday accommodation
No, sorry, I don't believe you me.
Apart from anything you're pretending the tourist industry is solely based around the kind of self-catering accommodation being referred to. Hotels, camping & caravans are a big part of the tourist industry, and non self-catering accommodation drives people to restaurants instead of supermarkets for their evening meal. No, the more I think about this the more I think this is a good move. Prune out the holiday lets that are underoccupied and they become either better-run lets, or housing for actual people.
You are missing the point that all these businesses you quote are about to be hit with a tourist tax on top of this
If this had been proposed for Devon and Cornwall or the Lake district you would have had a torrent of anger from the holiday industry
And by the way I do not lie
Tim Farron is running for re-election on the very question of holiday lets. They aren't greatly popular in the Lakes with the locals who tend to rather priorities having somewhere to live.
Yes but they bring in the income that no doubt supports many of their jobs
There is a balance to be struck but applying a tourist tax and reducing holiday accommodation is not one of them
They don't bring in any income if they are empty. And reducing holiday accommodation is smack bang what Farron thinks will keep him his seat. He probably knows better than me what the locals think.
Another way in which the article is silly is that this could encourage prices DOWN. Think about it. You can offer discounts on midweek off-season stays if the guest is staying the weekend. That might encourage some people to stay an extra day or two. That brings in more money, it doesn't increase the costs associated with booking, checking in and out, or other flat rates. The local economy gets a boost and the guests get more holiday without it breaking the bank. Everyone's a winner, except people who prefer to moan at the Welsh government for partisan reasons.
North Wales is depopulating.
The growth of holiday accommodation/second homes is caused by economic policy.
If there are no jobs, then there is rural depopulation. The consequent growth in holiday accommodation is caused by the depopulation -- not the other way round. There are empty houses that can be bought cheaply and turned into holiday lets. If they were not holiday lets, they'd fall into disrepair.
There are plenty of falling down, sad, derelict houses in almost all areas of North Wales. People used to live in those houses. They don't now because of depopulation.
As for your ideas in holiday lets in Wales in the winter -- they are bonkers.
Most tourist attractions in North Wales are shut in low season. Most restaurants are shut then (or have very limited hours).
No one is going to go and spend a few extra days in the middle of winter at Talsarnau, when there is nothing to do, nothing is open and the weather is wet, just because of Drakeford's idiotic policy.
I don't think Drakeford's plan makes much sense, apart from in some of the coastal resorts where second homes are a real problem (e.g. Aberdyfi, Tenby, Abersoch, Gwyr). In the rest of the country @Big_G_NorthWales is right -- they will destroy businesses and value.
I would respectively suggest to those who clearly do not know or experience our holiday industry, that I trust those in the industry here who are issuing warnings to Cardiff of the economic damage their policies including the ridiculous tourist tax are going to inflict on the whole North Wales area
Setting aside your passive-aggressive subtweeting style (you do that a lot, by the way), you've come at this debate in a wholly fact-free manner. You entered with adjectives and you hit a wall of facts you don't seem to know what to do with.
Three posters on here all of whom have Welsh connections reject your arguments and I have provided enough evidence of the anger by the industry over these proposals
I could post many more but I would respectively suggest you do not know the area, the industry or the feelings of those who earn a living from tourism
And you have not named anywhere else in the UK who thinks a tourist tax is a good idea
Although Bing and Google both understand it, even if you misspell the name of Pfizer's new anti-COVID drug, it is probably still best tospell it correctly: Paxlovid, not Plaxlovid or Paxloid.
Drakeford's destroying North Wales holiday industry from Cardiff
Tourism leaders in Wales have reacted with horror to confirmation of new occupancy rules for second homes and holiday lets. From April 1, 2023, the Welsh Government will insist that self-catering properties are let for at least 182 days each year in a move critics say will “decimate” the Welsh tourism industry.
Holiday lettings firm Finest Retreats, which promotes 29 holiday cottages in Wales, warned the challenging occupancy target will hit rural economies the hardest by driving up prices and making the country a “less attractive place to visit”. Tom Giffard, Welsh Conservative shadow tourism minister said it was a “devastating blow”, adding: “These new letting requirements will frankly be impossible for many self-caterers to meet.”
The Wales Tourism Alliance (WTA), which represents 6,000 tourism operators in Wales, believes 84% of the country's holiday lets could now be forced to close. WTA chair Suzy Davies said genuine holiday businesses will be caught up in a policy designed to clamp down on second homes. “Like dolphins accidentally caught in fishing nets, these businesses will die,” she cautioned.
On Tuesday, finance minister Rebecca Evans issued a written statement confirming Cardiff was pushing ahead with its plans despite opposition from the tourism sector. As with the Welsh Government’s new council tax policies, the approach is designed to tackle the housing crisis in Welsh-speaking communities in holiday hotspots.
The minister acknowledged that the stronger criteria “may be challenging for some operators to meet”. But she said: “The purpose of the change is to help ensure property owners are making a fair contribution to local communities, for example by increasing their contribution to the local economy through greater letting activity, or by paying council tax on their properties.”
To continue paying business rates, holiday rentals must be let for 182 days from April 1, 2023. Currently, the threshold is just 70 days. If holidays fail to meet the threshold, they pay council tax instead - and from April 2023 local counties will have the power to charge a council tax premium of up to 300%, effectively quadrupling bills.
Sorry, this looks like great news. Why should properties that are empty for 294 days a year get a tax break? Let people live there instead of keeping them empty for occasional holidaymakers. Good work Welsh Labour.
You clearly do not understand just how toxic this is for Welsh labour here in the heart of the North Wales holiday industry which is about to have a tourist tax put on them from Drakeford as well
Maybe I just care about affordable housing more. Your empty-house policy leaves me as cold as a homeless person.
Destroying the holiday industry losing thousands of jobs in businesses across North Wales is madness and could only be dreamt up by a Corbynista who just does not understand the local economy and simply does not care
And scroll on a page, you'll see that North Wales's figures are actually the strongest in Wales, averaging at 64%.
Even if a number of providers decide to drop out of the market, all that will do is increase the occupancy in competitors.
No, sorry, it seems you've been taken in by a scare story. The numbers don't fit at all with the apocalyptic predictions. Welsh Labour derangement syndrome, as Leon would probably call it.
This combined with the tourist tax will hit the holiday industry and believe you me it features all the time in the local media and Welsh news as various businesses forecast a fall in visitor numbers and a loss of holiday accommodation
No, sorry, I don't believe you me.
Apart from anything you're pretending the tourist industry is solely based around the kind of self-catering accommodation being referred to. Hotels, camping & caravans are a big part of the tourist industry, and non self-catering accommodation drives people to restaurants instead of supermarkets for their evening meal. No, the more I think about this the more I think this is a good move. Prune out the holiday lets that are underoccupied and they become either better-run lets, or housing for actual people.
You are missing the point that all these businesses you quote are about to be hit with a tourist tax on top of this
If this had been proposed for Devon and Cornwall or the Lake district you would have had a torrent of anger from the holiday industry
And by the way I do not lie
Tim Farron is running for re-election on the very question of holiday lets. They aren't greatly popular in the Lakes with the locals who tend to rather priorities having somewhere to live.
Yes but they bring in the income that no doubt supports many of their jobs
There is a balance to be struck but applying a tourist tax and reducing holiday accommodation is not one of them
They don't bring in any income if they are empty. And reducing holiday accommodation is smack bang what Farron thinks will keep him his seat. He probably knows better than me what the locals think.
Another way in which the article is silly is that this could encourage prices DOWN. Think about it. You can offer discounts on midweek off-season stays if the guest is staying the weekend. That might encourage some people to stay an extra day or two. That brings in more money, it doesn't increase the costs associated with booking, checking in and out, or other flat rates. The local economy gets a boost and the guests get more holiday without it breaking the bank. Everyone's a winner, except people who prefer to moan at the Welsh government for partisan reasons.
North Wales is depopulating.
The growth of holiday accommodation/second homes is caused by economic policy.
If there are no jobs, then there is rural depopulation. The consequent growth in holiday accommodation is caused by the depopulation -- not the other way round. There are empty houses that can be bought cheaply and turned into holiday lets. If they were not holiday lets, they'd fall into disrepair.
There are plenty of falling down, sad, derelict houses in almost all areas of North Wales. People used to live in those houses. They don't now because of depopulation.
As for your ideas in holiday lets in Wales in the winter -- they are bonkers.
Most tourist attractions in North Wales are shut in low season. Most restaurants are shut then (or have very limited hours).
No one is going to go and spend a few extra days in the middle of winter at Talsarnau, when there is nothing to do, nothing is open and the weather is wet, just because of Drakeford's idiotic policy.
I don't think Drakeford's plan makes much sense, apart from in some of the coastal resorts where second homes are a real problem (e.g. Aberdyfi, Tenby, Abersoch, Gwyr). In the rest of the country @Big_G_NorthWales is right -- they will destroy businesses and value.
Except occupancy rates are already above the thresholds that will be affected by this! This isn't a policy that will affect the average let. It's the ones that are taking up space and not generating income. An empty guest house doesn't do anything for the local economy.
As for "tourist attractions" being shut in the winter, that really depends. Museums and galleries are often open outside high season. Natural spaces like Snowdonia, Holy Island, Alyn Waters are open all year round.
I actually live in a formally very prosperous town in North Wales.
There are many houses that are just empty. I can go to my window and look out and count them. They are not second homes, they are just properties that are not let and no-one wants to live in.
I actually live in North Wales in the winter. I know the restaurants are usually shut completely in Jan & Feb, and they have restricted opening hours Oct-Mar
Museum and galleries in North Wales are almost always shut in the low season, apart from a few large attractions like Caernarfon Castle. Many CADW properties are shut in the winter.
Jesus .. you are behaving like HYUFD.
You live in Aberdeenshire, you are quoting guff from Welsh Government websites .. and everyone who knows North Wales is telling you that you are talking garbage.
If you told me something about Aberdeenshire, I'd believe you .. rather than going to google and quoting a government statistic back at you.
It amazes me how someone living in the North East of Scotland attempts to argue with those of us who live in the area, are familiar with the proposals, and know the reaction from those in the holiday industry
Drakeford's destroying North Wales holiday industry from Cardiff
Tourism leaders in Wales have reacted with horror to confirmation of new occupancy rules for second homes and holiday lets. From April 1, 2023, the Welsh Government will insist that self-catering properties are let for at least 182 days each year in a move critics say will “decimate” the Welsh tourism industry.
Holiday lettings firm Finest Retreats, which promotes 29 holiday cottages in Wales, warned the challenging occupancy target will hit rural economies the hardest by driving up prices and making the country a “less attractive place to visit”. Tom Giffard, Welsh Conservative shadow tourism minister said it was a “devastating blow”, adding: “These new letting requirements will frankly be impossible for many self-caterers to meet.”
The Wales Tourism Alliance (WTA), which represents 6,000 tourism operators in Wales, believes 84% of the country's holiday lets could now be forced to close. WTA chair Suzy Davies said genuine holiday businesses will be caught up in a policy designed to clamp down on second homes. “Like dolphins accidentally caught in fishing nets, these businesses will die,” she cautioned.
On Tuesday, finance minister Rebecca Evans issued a written statement confirming Cardiff was pushing ahead with its plans despite opposition from the tourism sector. As with the Welsh Government’s new council tax policies, the approach is designed to tackle the housing crisis in Welsh-speaking communities in holiday hotspots.
The minister acknowledged that the stronger criteria “may be challenging for some operators to meet”. But she said: “The purpose of the change is to help ensure property owners are making a fair contribution to local communities, for example by increasing their contribution to the local economy through greater letting activity, or by paying council tax on their properties.”
To continue paying business rates, holiday rentals must be let for 182 days from April 1, 2023. Currently, the threshold is just 70 days. If holidays fail to meet the threshold, they pay council tax instead - and from April 2023 local counties will have the power to charge a council tax premium of up to 300%, effectively quadrupling bills.
Sorry, this looks like great news. Why should properties that are empty for 294 days a year get a tax break? Let people live there instead of keeping them empty for occasional holidaymakers. Good work Welsh Labour.
You clearly do not understand just how toxic this is for Welsh labour here in the heart of the North Wales holiday industry which is about to have a tourist tax put on them from Drakeford as well
Maybe I just care about affordable housing more. Your empty-house policy leaves me as cold as a homeless person.
Destroying the holiday industry losing thousands of jobs in businesses across North Wales is madness and could only be dreamt up by a Corbynista who just does not understand the local economy and simply does not care
And scroll on a page, you'll see that North Wales's figures are actually the strongest in Wales, averaging at 64%.
Even if a number of providers decide to drop out of the market, all that will do is increase the occupancy in competitors.
No, sorry, it seems you've been taken in by a scare story. The numbers don't fit at all with the apocalyptic predictions. Welsh Labour derangement syndrome, as Leon would probably call it.
This combined with the tourist tax will hit the holiday industry and believe you me it features all the time in the local media and Welsh news as various businesses forecast a fall in visitor numbers and a loss of holiday accommodation
No, sorry, I don't believe you me.
Apart from anything you're pretending the tourist industry is solely based around the kind of self-catering accommodation being referred to. Hotels, camping & caravans are a big part of the tourist industry, and non self-catering accommodation drives people to restaurants instead of supermarkets for their evening meal. No, the more I think about this the more I think this is a good move. Prune out the holiday lets that are underoccupied and they become either better-run lets, or housing for actual people.
You are missing the point that all these businesses you quote are about to be hit with a tourist tax on top of this
If this had been proposed for Devon and Cornwall or the Lake district you would have had a torrent of anger from the holiday industry
And by the way I do not lie
Tim Farron is running for re-election on the very question of holiday lets. They aren't greatly popular in the Lakes with the locals who tend to rather priorities having somewhere to live.
Yes but they bring in the income that no doubt supports many of their jobs
There is a balance to be struck but applying a tourist tax and reducing holiday accommodation is not one of them
They don't bring in any income if they are empty. And reducing holiday accommodation is smack bang what Farron thinks will keep him his seat. He probably knows better than me what the locals think.
Another way in which the article is silly is that this could encourage prices DOWN. Think about it. You can offer discounts on midweek off-season stays if the guest is staying the weekend. That might encourage some people to stay an extra day or two. That brings in more money, it doesn't increase the costs associated with booking, checking in and out, or other flat rates. The local economy gets a boost and the guests get more holiday without it breaking the bank. Everyone's a winner, except people who prefer to moan at the Welsh government for partisan reasons.
North Wales is depopulating.
The growth of holiday accommodation/second homes is caused by economic policy.
If there are no jobs, then there is rural depopulation. The consequent growth in holiday accommodation is caused by the depopulation -- not the other way round. There are empty houses that can be bought cheaply and turned into holiday lets. If they were not holiday lets, they'd fall into disrepair.
There are plenty of falling down, sad, derelict houses in almost all areas of North Wales. People used to live in those houses. They don't now because of depopulation.
As for your ideas in holiday lets in Wales in the winter -- they are bonkers.
Most tourist attractions in North Wales are shut in low season. Most restaurants are shut then (or have very limited hours).
No one is going to go and spend a few extra days in the middle of winter at Talsarnau, when there is nothing to do, nothing is open and the weather is wet, just because of Drakeford's idiotic policy.
I don't think Drakeford's plan makes much sense, apart from in some of the coastal resorts where second homes are a real problem (e.g. Aberdyfi, Tenby, Abersoch, Gwyr). In the rest of the country @Big_G_NorthWales is right -- they will destroy businesses and value.
Except occupancy rates are already above the thresholds that will be affected by this! This isn't a policy that will affect the average let. It's the ones that are taking up space and not generating income. An empty guest house doesn't do anything for the local economy.
As for "tourist attractions" being shut in the winter, that really depends. Museums and galleries are often open outside high season. Natural spaces like Snowdonia, Holy Island, Alyn Waters are open all year round.
I actually live in a formally very prosperous town in North Wales.
There are many houses that are just empty. I can go to my window and look out and count them. They are not second homes, they are just properties that are not let and no-one wants to live in.
I actually live in North Wales in the winter. I know the restaurants are usually shut completely in Jan & Feb, and they have restricted opening hours Oct-Mar
Museum and galleries in North Wales are almost always shut in the low season, apart from a few large attractions like Caernarfon Castle. Many CADW properties are shut in the winter.
Jesus .. you are behaving like HYUFD.
You live in Aberdeenshire, you are quoting guff from Welsh Government websites .. and everyone who knows North Wales is telling you that you are talking garbage.
If you told me something about Aberdeenshire, I'd believe you .. rather than going to google and quoting a government statistic back at you.
You're making out like North Wales tourism is a rare orchid that flowers for nine minutes per year. I guess the 600,000 annual visitors to Snowdon are all up on the summit in one mad stampede?
Drakeford's destroying North Wales holiday industry from Cardiff
Tourism leaders in Wales have reacted with horror to confirmation of new occupancy rules for second homes and holiday lets. From April 1, 2023, the Welsh Government will insist that self-catering properties are let for at least 182 days each year in a move critics say will “decimate” the Welsh tourism industry.
Holiday lettings firm Finest Retreats, which promotes 29 holiday cottages in Wales, warned the challenging occupancy target will hit rural economies the hardest by driving up prices and making the country a “less attractive place to visit”. Tom Giffard, Welsh Conservative shadow tourism minister said it was a “devastating blow”, adding: “These new letting requirements will frankly be impossible for many self-caterers to meet.”
The Wales Tourism Alliance (WTA), which represents 6,000 tourism operators in Wales, believes 84% of the country's holiday lets could now be forced to close. WTA chair Suzy Davies said genuine holiday businesses will be caught up in a policy designed to clamp down on second homes. “Like dolphins accidentally caught in fishing nets, these businesses will die,” she cautioned.
On Tuesday, finance minister Rebecca Evans issued a written statement confirming Cardiff was pushing ahead with its plans despite opposition from the tourism sector. As with the Welsh Government’s new council tax policies, the approach is designed to tackle the housing crisis in Welsh-speaking communities in holiday hotspots.
The minister acknowledged that the stronger criteria “may be challenging for some operators to meet”. But she said: “The purpose of the change is to help ensure property owners are making a fair contribution to local communities, for example by increasing their contribution to the local economy through greater letting activity, or by paying council tax on their properties.”
To continue paying business rates, holiday rentals must be let for 182 days from April 1, 2023. Currently, the threshold is just 70 days. If holidays fail to meet the threshold, they pay council tax instead - and from April 2023 local counties will have the power to charge a council tax premium of up to 300%, effectively quadrupling bills.
Sorry, this looks like great news. Why should properties that are empty for 294 days a year get a tax break? Let people live there instead of keeping them empty for occasional holidaymakers. Good work Welsh Labour.
You clearly do not understand just how toxic this is for Welsh labour here in the heart of the North Wales holiday industry which is about to have a tourist tax put on them from Drakeford as well
Maybe I just care about affordable housing more. Your empty-house policy leaves me as cold as a homeless person.
Destroying the holiday industry losing thousands of jobs in businesses across North Wales is madness and could only be dreamt up by a Corbynista who just does not understand the local economy and simply does not care
And scroll on a page, you'll see that North Wales's figures are actually the strongest in Wales, averaging at 64%.
Even if a number of providers decide to drop out of the market, all that will do is increase the occupancy in competitors.
No, sorry, it seems you've been taken in by a scare story. The numbers don't fit at all with the apocalyptic predictions. Welsh Labour derangement syndrome, as Leon would probably call it.
This combined with the tourist tax will hit the holiday industry and believe you me it features all the time in the local media and Welsh news as various businesses forecast a fall in visitor numbers and a loss of holiday accommodation
No, sorry, I don't believe you me.
Apart from anything you're pretending the tourist industry is solely based around the kind of self-catering accommodation being referred to. Hotels, camping & caravans are a big part of the tourist industry, and non self-catering accommodation drives people to restaurants instead of supermarkets for their evening meal. No, the more I think about this the more I think this is a good move. Prune out the holiday lets that are underoccupied and they become either better-run lets, or housing for actual people.
You are missing the point that all these businesses you quote are about to be hit with a tourist tax on top of this
If this had been proposed for Devon and Cornwall or the Lake district you would have had a torrent of anger from the holiday industry
And by the way I do not lie
Tim Farron is running for re-election on the very question of holiday lets. They aren't greatly popular in the Lakes with the locals who tend to rather priorities having somewhere to live.
Yes but they bring in the income that no doubt supports many of their jobs
There is a balance to be struck but applying a tourist tax and reducing holiday accommodation is not one of them
They don't bring in any income if they are empty. And reducing holiday accommodation is smack bang what Farron thinks will keep him his seat. He probably knows better than me what the locals think.
Another way in which the article is silly is that this could encourage prices DOWN. Think about it. You can offer discounts on midweek off-season stays if the guest is staying the weekend. That might encourage some people to stay an extra day or two. That brings in more money, it doesn't increase the costs associated with booking, checking in and out, or other flat rates. The local economy gets a boost and the guests get more holiday without it breaking the bank. Everyone's a winner, except people who prefer to moan at the Welsh government for partisan reasons.
North Wales is depopulating.
The growth of holiday accommodation/second homes is caused by economic policy.
If there are no jobs, then there is rural depopulation. The consequent growth in holiday accommodation is caused by the depopulation -- not the other way round. There are empty houses that can be bought cheaply and turned into holiday lets. If they were not holiday lets, they'd fall into disrepair.
There are plenty of falling down, sad, derelict houses in almost all areas of North Wales. People used to live in those houses. They don't now because of depopulation.
As for your ideas in holiday lets in Wales in the winter -- they are bonkers.
Most tourist attractions in North Wales are shut in low season. Most restaurants are shut then (or have very limited hours).
No one is going to go and spend a few extra days in the middle of winter at Talsarnau, when there is nothing to do, nothing is open and the weather is wet, just because of Drakeford's idiotic policy.
I don't think Drakeford's plan makes much sense, apart from in some of the coastal resorts where second homes are a real problem (e.g. Aberdyfi, Tenby, Abersoch, Gwyr). In the rest of the country @Big_G_NorthWales is right -- they will destroy businesses and value.
Except occupancy rates are already above the thresholds that will be affected by this! This isn't a policy that will affect the average let. It's the ones that are taking up space and not generating income. An empty guest house doesn't do anything for the local economy.
As for "tourist attractions" being shut in the winter, that really depends. Museums and galleries are often open outside high season. Natural spaces like Snowdonia, Holy Island, Alyn Waters are open all year round.
I actually live in a formally very prosperous town in North Wales.
There are many houses that are just empty. I can go to my window and look out and count them. They are not second homes, they are just properties that are not let and no-one wants to live in.
I actually live in North Wales in the winter. I know the restaurants are usually shut completely in Jan & Feb, and they have restricted opening hours Oct-Mar
Museum and galleries in North Wales are almost always shut in the low season, apart from a few large attractions like Caernarfon Castle. Many CADW properties are shut in the winter.
Jesus .. you are behaving like HYUFD.
You live in Aberdeenshire, you are quoting guff from Welsh Government websites .. and everyone who knows North Wales is telling you that you are talking garbage.
If you told me something about Aberdeenshire, I'd believe you .. rather than going to google and quoting a government statistic back at you.
You're making out like North Wales tourism is a rare orchid that flowers for nine minutes per year. I guess the 600,000 annual visitors to Snowdon are all up on the summit in one mad stampede?
Drakeford's destroying North Wales holiday industry from Cardiff
Tourism leaders in Wales have reacted with horror to confirmation of new occupancy rules for second homes and holiday lets. From April 1, 2023, the Welsh Government will insist that self-catering properties are let for at least 182 days each year in a move critics say will “decimate” the Welsh tourism industry.
Holiday lettings firm Finest Retreats, which promotes 29 holiday cottages in Wales, warned the challenging occupancy target will hit rural economies the hardest by driving up prices and making the country a “less attractive place to visit”. Tom Giffard, Welsh Conservative shadow tourism minister said it was a “devastating blow”, adding: “These new letting requirements will frankly be impossible for many self-caterers to meet.”
The Wales Tourism Alliance (WTA), which represents 6,000 tourism operators in Wales, believes 84% of the country's holiday lets could now be forced to close. WTA chair Suzy Davies said genuine holiday businesses will be caught up in a policy designed to clamp down on second homes. “Like dolphins accidentally caught in fishing nets, these businesses will die,” she cautioned.
On Tuesday, finance minister Rebecca Evans issued a written statement confirming Cardiff was pushing ahead with its plans despite opposition from the tourism sector. As with the Welsh Government’s new council tax policies, the approach is designed to tackle the housing crisis in Welsh-speaking communities in holiday hotspots.
The minister acknowledged that the stronger criteria “may be challenging for some operators to meet”. But she said: “The purpose of the change is to help ensure property owners are making a fair contribution to local communities, for example by increasing their contribution to the local economy through greater letting activity, or by paying council tax on their properties.”
To continue paying business rates, holiday rentals must be let for 182 days from April 1, 2023. Currently, the threshold is just 70 days. If holidays fail to meet the threshold, they pay council tax instead - and from April 2023 local counties will have the power to charge a council tax premium of up to 300%, effectively quadrupling bills.
Sorry, this looks like great news. Why should properties that are empty for 294 days a year get a tax break? Let people live there instead of keeping them empty for occasional holidaymakers. Good work Welsh Labour.
You clearly do not understand just how toxic this is for Welsh labour here in the heart of the North Wales holiday industry which is about to have a tourist tax put on them from Drakeford as well
Maybe I just care about affordable housing more. Your empty-house policy leaves me as cold as a homeless person.
Destroying the holiday industry losing thousands of jobs in businesses across North Wales is madness and could only be dreamt up by a Corbynista who just does not understand the local economy and simply does not care
And scroll on a page, you'll see that North Wales's figures are actually the strongest in Wales, averaging at 64%.
Even if a number of providers decide to drop out of the market, all that will do is increase the occupancy in competitors.
No, sorry, it seems you've been taken in by a scare story. The numbers don't fit at all with the apocalyptic predictions. Welsh Labour derangement syndrome, as Leon would probably call it.
This combined with the tourist tax will hit the holiday industry and believe you me it features all the time in the local media and Welsh news as various businesses forecast a fall in visitor numbers and a loss of holiday accommodation
No, sorry, I don't believe you me.
Apart from anything you're pretending the tourist industry is solely based around the kind of self-catering accommodation being referred to. Hotels, camping & caravans are a big part of the tourist industry, and non self-catering accommodation drives people to restaurants instead of supermarkets for their evening meal. No, the more I think about this the more I think this is a good move. Prune out the holiday lets that are underoccupied and they become either better-run lets, or housing for actual people.
You are missing the point that all these businesses you quote are about to be hit with a tourist tax on top of this
If this had been proposed for Devon and Cornwall or the Lake district you would have had a torrent of anger from the holiday industry
And by the way I do not lie
Tim Farron is running for re-election on the very question of holiday lets. They aren't greatly popular in the Lakes with the locals who tend to rather priorities having somewhere to live.
Yes but they bring in the income that no doubt supports many of their jobs
There is a balance to be struck but applying a tourist tax and reducing holiday accommodation is not one of them
They don't bring in any income if they are empty. And reducing holiday accommodation is smack bang what Farron thinks will keep him his seat. He probably knows better than me what the locals think.
Another way in which the article is silly is that this could encourage prices DOWN. Think about it. You can offer discounts on midweek off-season stays if the guest is staying the weekend. That might encourage some people to stay an extra day or two. That brings in more money, it doesn't increase the costs associated with booking, checking in and out, or other flat rates. The local economy gets a boost and the guests get more holiday without it breaking the bank. Everyone's a winner, except people who prefer to moan at the Welsh government for partisan reasons.
North Wales is depopulating.
The growth of holiday accommodation/second homes is caused by economic policy.
If there are no jobs, then there is rural depopulation. The consequent growth in holiday accommodation is caused by the depopulation -- not the other way round. There are empty houses that can be bought cheaply and turned into holiday lets. If they were not holiday lets, they'd fall into disrepair.
There are plenty of falling down, sad, derelict houses in almost all areas of North Wales. People used to live in those houses. They don't now because of depopulation.
As for your ideas in holiday lets in Wales in the winter -- they are bonkers.
Most tourist attractions in North Wales are shut in low season. Most restaurants are shut then (or have very limited hours).
No one is going to go and spend a few extra days in the middle of winter at Talsarnau, when there is nothing to do, nothing is open and the weather is wet, just because of Drakeford's idiotic policy.
I don't think Drakeford's plan makes much sense, apart from in some of the coastal resorts where second homes are a real problem (e.g. Aberdyfi, Tenby, Abersoch, Gwyr). In the rest of the country @Big_G_NorthWales is right -- they will destroy businesses and value.
Except occupancy rates are already above the thresholds that will be affected by this! This isn't a policy that will affect the average let. It's the ones that are taking up space and not generating income. An empty guest house doesn't do anything for the local economy.
As for "tourist attractions" being shut in the winter, that really depends. Museums and galleries are often open outside high season. Natural spaces like Snowdonia, Holy Island, Alyn Waters are open all year round.
I actually live in a formally very prosperous town in North Wales.
There are many houses that are just empty. I can go to my window and look out and count them. They are not second homes, they are just properties that are not let and no-one wants to live in.
I actually live in North Wales in the winter. I know the restaurants are usually shut completely in Jan & Feb, and they have restricted opening hours Oct-Mar
Museum and galleries in North Wales are almost always shut in the low season, apart from a few large attractions like Caernarfon Castle. Many CADW properties are shut in the winter.
Jesus .. you are behaving like HYUFD.
You live in Aberdeenshire, you are quoting guff from Welsh Government websites .. and everyone who knows North Wales is telling you that you are talking garbage.
If you told me something about Aberdeenshire, I'd believe you .. rather than going to google and quoting a government statistic back at you.
It amazes me how someone living in the North East of Scotland attempts to argue with those of us who live in the area, are familiar with the proposals, and know the reaction from those in the holiday industry
I'd be interested in some numbers here. If I have understood it, if you don't let for 6 months of year you will now pay 300% of council tax (as it is a 2nd home). Average council tax is what £2000 a year? So we are talking ≈≈ £6K.
So what is the business rate on a holiday let cottage?
Drakeford's destroying North Wales holiday industry from Cardiff
Tourism leaders in Wales have reacted with horror to confirmation of new occupancy rules for second homes and holiday lets. From April 1, 2023, the Welsh Government will insist that self-catering properties are let for at least 182 days each year in a move critics say will “decimate” the Welsh tourism industry.
Holiday lettings firm Finest Retreats, which promotes 29 holiday cottages in Wales, warned the challenging occupancy target will hit rural economies the hardest by driving up prices and making the country a “less attractive place to visit”. Tom Giffard, Welsh Conservative shadow tourism minister said it was a “devastating blow”, adding: “These new letting requirements will frankly be impossible for many self-caterers to meet.”
The Wales Tourism Alliance (WTA), which represents 6,000 tourism operators in Wales, believes 84% of the country's holiday lets could now be forced to close. WTA chair Suzy Davies said genuine holiday businesses will be caught up in a policy designed to clamp down on second homes. “Like dolphins accidentally caught in fishing nets, these businesses will die,” she cautioned.
On Tuesday, finance minister Rebecca Evans issued a written statement confirming Cardiff was pushing ahead with its plans despite opposition from the tourism sector. As with the Welsh Government’s new council tax policies, the approach is designed to tackle the housing crisis in Welsh-speaking communities in holiday hotspots.
The minister acknowledged that the stronger criteria “may be challenging for some operators to meet”. But she said: “The purpose of the change is to help ensure property owners are making a fair contribution to local communities, for example by increasing their contribution to the local economy through greater letting activity, or by paying council tax on their properties.”
To continue paying business rates, holiday rentals must be let for 182 days from April 1, 2023. Currently, the threshold is just 70 days. If holidays fail to meet the threshold, they pay council tax instead - and from April 2023 local counties will have the power to charge a council tax premium of up to 300%, effectively quadrupling bills.
Sorry, this looks like great news. Why should properties that are empty for 294 days a year get a tax break? Let people live there instead of keeping them empty for occasional holidaymakers. Good work Welsh Labour.
You clearly do not understand just how toxic this is for Welsh labour here in the heart of the North Wales holiday industry which is about to have a tourist tax put on them from Drakeford as well
Maybe I just care about affordable housing more. Your empty-house policy leaves me as cold as a homeless person.
Destroying the holiday industry losing thousands of jobs in businesses across North Wales is madness and could only be dreamt up by a Corbynista who just does not understand the local economy and simply does not care
And scroll on a page, you'll see that North Wales's figures are actually the strongest in Wales, averaging at 64%.
Even if a number of providers decide to drop out of the market, all that will do is increase the occupancy in competitors.
No, sorry, it seems you've been taken in by a scare story. The numbers don't fit at all with the apocalyptic predictions. Welsh Labour derangement syndrome, as Leon would probably call it.
This combined with the tourist tax will hit the holiday industry and believe you me it features all the time in the local media and Welsh news as various businesses forecast a fall in visitor numbers and a loss of holiday accommodation
No, sorry, I don't believe you me.
Apart from anything you're pretending the tourist industry is solely based around the kind of self-catering accommodation being referred to. Hotels, camping & caravans are a big part of the tourist industry, and non self-catering accommodation drives people to restaurants instead of supermarkets for their evening meal. No, the more I think about this the more I think this is a good move. Prune out the holiday lets that are underoccupied and they become either better-run lets, or housing for actual people.
You are missing the point that all these businesses you quote are about to be hit with a tourist tax on top of this
If this had been proposed for Devon and Cornwall or the Lake district you would have had a torrent of anger from the holiday industry
And by the way I do not lie
Tim Farron is running for re-election on the very question of holiday lets. They aren't greatly popular in the Lakes with the locals who tend to rather priorities having somewhere to live.
Yes but they bring in the income that no doubt supports many of their jobs
There is a balance to be struck but applying a tourist tax and reducing holiday accommodation is not one of them
They don't bring in any income if they are empty. And reducing holiday accommodation is smack bang what Farron thinks will keep him his seat. He probably knows better than me what the locals think.
Another way in which the article is silly is that this could encourage prices DOWN. Think about it. You can offer discounts on midweek off-season stays if the guest is staying the weekend. That might encourage some people to stay an extra day or two. That brings in more money, it doesn't increase the costs associated with booking, checking in and out, or other flat rates. The local economy gets a boost and the guests get more holiday without it breaking the bank. Everyone's a winner, except people who prefer to moan at the Welsh government for partisan reasons.
North Wales is depopulating.
The growth of holiday accommodation/second homes is caused by economic policy.
If there are no jobs, then there is rural depopulation. The consequent growth in holiday accommodation is caused by the depopulation -- not the other way round. There are empty houses that can be bought cheaply and turned into holiday lets. If they were not holiday lets, they'd fall into disrepair.
There are plenty of falling down, sad, derelict houses in almost all areas of North Wales. People used to live in those houses. They don't now because of depopulation.
As for your ideas in holiday lets in Wales in the winter -- they are bonkers.
Most tourist attractions in North Wales are shut in low season. Most restaurants are shut then (or have very limited hours).
No one is going to go and spend a few extra days in the middle of winter at Talsarnau, when there is nothing to do, nothing is open and the weather is wet, just because of Drakeford's idiotic policy.
I don't think Drakeford's plan makes much sense, apart from in some of the coastal resorts where second homes are a real problem (e.g. Aberdyfi, Tenby, Abersoch, Gwyr). In the rest of the country @Big_G_NorthWales is right -- they will destroy businesses and value.
Except occupancy rates are already above the thresholds that will be affected by this! This isn't a policy that will affect the average let. It's the ones that are taking up space and not generating income. An empty guest house doesn't do anything for the local economy.
As for "tourist attractions" being shut in the winter, that really depends. Museums and galleries are often open outside high season. Natural spaces like Snowdonia, Holy Island, Alyn Waters are open all year round.
I actually live in a formally very prosperous town in North Wales.
There are many houses that are just empty. I can go to my window and look out and count them. They are not second homes, they are just properties that are not let and no-one wants to live in.
I actually live in North Wales in the winter. I know the restaurants are usually shut completely in Jan & Feb, and they have restricted opening hours Oct-Mar
Museum and galleries in North Wales are almost always shut in the low season, apart from a few large attractions like Caernarfon Castle. Many CADW properties are shut in the winter.
Jesus .. you are behaving like HYUFD.
You live in Aberdeenshire, you are quoting guff from Welsh Government websites .. and everyone who knows North Wales is telling you that you are talking garbage.
If you told me something about Aberdeenshire, I'd believe you .. rather than going to google and quoting a government statistic back at you.
It amazes me how someone living in the North East of Scotland attempts to argue with those of us who live in the area, are familiar with the proposals, and know the reaction from those in the holiday industry
I'd be interested in some numbers here. If I have understood it, if you don't let for 6 months of year you will now pay 300% of council tax (as it is a 2nd home). Average council tax is what £2000 a year? So we are talking ≈≈ £6K.
So what is the business rate on a holiday let cottage?
What stops you renting it out to a friend for minor fee to make up your days?
Been an interesting couple of days listening to the Hard Left slag off the idea of universal benefits now that £400 rebate goes to every household energy bill.
Drakeford's destroying North Wales holiday industry from Cardiff
Tourism leaders in Wales have reacted with horror to confirmation of new occupancy rules for second homes and holiday lets. From April 1, 2023, the Welsh Government will insist that self-catering properties are let for at least 182 days each year in a move critics say will “decimate” the Welsh tourism industry.
Holiday lettings firm Finest Retreats, which promotes 29 holiday cottages in Wales, warned the challenging occupancy target will hit rural economies the hardest by driving up prices and making the country a “less attractive place to visit”. Tom Giffard, Welsh Conservative shadow tourism minister said it was a “devastating blow”, adding: “These new letting requirements will frankly be impossible for many self-caterers to meet.”
The Wales Tourism Alliance (WTA), which represents 6,000 tourism operators in Wales, believes 84% of the country's holiday lets could now be forced to close. WTA chair Suzy Davies said genuine holiday businesses will be caught up in a policy designed to clamp down on second homes. “Like dolphins accidentally caught in fishing nets, these businesses will die,” she cautioned.
On Tuesday, finance minister Rebecca Evans issued a written statement confirming Cardiff was pushing ahead with its plans despite opposition from the tourism sector. As with the Welsh Government’s new council tax policies, the approach is designed to tackle the housing crisis in Welsh-speaking communities in holiday hotspots.
The minister acknowledged that the stronger criteria “may be challenging for some operators to meet”. But she said: “The purpose of the change is to help ensure property owners are making a fair contribution to local communities, for example by increasing their contribution to the local economy through greater letting activity, or by paying council tax on their properties.”
To continue paying business rates, holiday rentals must be let for 182 days from April 1, 2023. Currently, the threshold is just 70 days. If holidays fail to meet the threshold, they pay council tax instead - and from April 2023 local counties will have the power to charge a council tax premium of up to 300%, effectively quadrupling bills.
Sorry, this looks like great news. Why should properties that are empty for 294 days a year get a tax break? Let people live there instead of keeping them empty for occasional holidaymakers. Good work Welsh Labour.
You clearly do not understand just how toxic this is for Welsh labour here in the heart of the North Wales holiday industry which is about to have a tourist tax put on them from Drakeford as well
Maybe I just care about affordable housing more. Your empty-house policy leaves me as cold as a homeless person.
Destroying the holiday industry losing thousands of jobs in businesses across North Wales is madness and could only be dreamt up by a Corbynista who just does not understand the local economy and simply does not care
And scroll on a page, you'll see that North Wales's figures are actually the strongest in Wales, averaging at 64%.
Even if a number of providers decide to drop out of the market, all that will do is increase the occupancy in competitors.
No, sorry, it seems you've been taken in by a scare story. The numbers don't fit at all with the apocalyptic predictions. Welsh Labour derangement syndrome, as Leon would probably call it.
This combined with the tourist tax will hit the holiday industry and believe you me it features all the time in the local media and Welsh news as various businesses forecast a fall in visitor numbers and a loss of holiday accommodation
No, sorry, I don't believe you me.
Apart from anything you're pretending the tourist industry is solely based around the kind of self-catering accommodation being referred to. Hotels, camping & caravans are a big part of the tourist industry, and non self-catering accommodation drives people to restaurants instead of supermarkets for their evening meal. No, the more I think about this the more I think this is a good move. Prune out the holiday lets that are underoccupied and they become either better-run lets, or housing for actual people.
You are missing the point that all these businesses you quote are about to be hit with a tourist tax on top of this
If this had been proposed for Devon and Cornwall or the Lake district you would have had a torrent of anger from the holiday industry
And by the way I do not lie
Tim Farron is running for re-election on the very question of holiday lets. They aren't greatly popular in the Lakes with the locals who tend to rather priorities having somewhere to live.
Yes but they bring in the income that no doubt supports many of their jobs
There is a balance to be struck but applying a tourist tax and reducing holiday accommodation is not one of them
They don't bring in any income if they are empty. And reducing holiday accommodation is smack bang what Farron thinks will keep him his seat. He probably knows better than me what the locals think.
Another way in which the article is silly is that this could encourage prices DOWN. Think about it. You can offer discounts on midweek off-season stays if the guest is staying the weekend. That might encourage some people to stay an extra day or two. That brings in more money, it doesn't increase the costs associated with booking, checking in and out, or other flat rates. The local economy gets a boost and the guests get more holiday without it breaking the bank. Everyone's a winner, except people who prefer to moan at the Welsh government for partisan reasons.
North Wales is depopulating.
The growth of holiday accommodation/second homes is caused by economic policy.
If there are no jobs, then there is rural depopulation. The consequent growth in holiday accommodation is caused by the depopulation -- not the other way round. There are empty houses that can be bought cheaply and turned into holiday lets. If they were not holiday lets, they'd fall into disrepair.
There are plenty of falling down, sad, derelict houses in almost all areas of North Wales. People used to live in those houses. They don't now because of depopulation.
As for your ideas in holiday lets in Wales in the winter -- they are bonkers.
Most tourist attractions in North Wales are shut in low season. Most restaurants are shut then (or have very limited hours).
No one is going to go and spend a few extra days in the middle of winter at Talsarnau, when there is nothing to do, nothing is open and the weather is wet, just because of Drakeford's idiotic policy.
I don't think Drakeford's plan makes much sense, apart from in some of the coastal resorts where second homes are a real problem (e.g. Aberdyfi, Tenby, Abersoch, Gwyr). In the rest of the country @Big_G_NorthWales is right -- they will destroy businesses and value.
I would respectively suggest to those who clearly do not know or experience our holiday industry, that I trust those in the industry here who are issuing warnings to Cardiff of the economic damage their policies including the ridiculous tourist tax are going to inflict on the whole North Wales area
Setting aside your passive-aggressive subtweeting style (you do that a lot, by the way), you've come at this debate in a wholly fact-free manner. You entered with adjectives and you hit a wall of facts you don't seem to know what to do with.
Three posters on here all of whom have Welsh connections reject your arguments and I have provided enough evidence of the anger by the industry over these proposals
I could post many more but I would respectively suggest you do not know the area, the industry or the feelings of those who earn a living from tourism
And you have not named anywhere else in the UK who thinks a tourist tax is a good idea
Outrage, as I have already set out, is a non-argument. Remember when the smoking ban came in and every pub closed? Remember when the minimum wage was introduced and the country slid into subsaharan poverty? Remember the sustained recession we had immediately after the vote to leave the EU? Remember when equal marriage came in and we all be married to our pets before the end of the decade? Remember every time they want to change anything on the railways and drivers go on strike because everything has to be exactly the way it's always been otherwise rail passengers will catch on fire or something?
We always treated to apocalypse stories whenever anything is changes. There's always someone outraged. The trick is to not just take their word for it and actually look at the meat of the proposals. They might be right sometimes. Not this time though.
Drakeford's destroying North Wales holiday industry from Cardiff
Tourism leaders in Wales have reacted with horror to confirmation of new occupancy rules for second homes and holiday lets. From April 1, 2023, the Welsh Government will insist that self-catering properties are let for at least 182 days each year in a move critics say will “decimate” the Welsh tourism industry.
Holiday lettings firm Finest Retreats, which promotes 29 holiday cottages in Wales, warned the challenging occupancy target will hit rural economies the hardest by driving up prices and making the country a “less attractive place to visit”. Tom Giffard, Welsh Conservative shadow tourism minister said it was a “devastating blow”, adding: “These new letting requirements will frankly be impossible for many self-caterers to meet.”
The Wales Tourism Alliance (WTA), which represents 6,000 tourism operators in Wales, believes 84% of the country's holiday lets could now be forced to close. WTA chair Suzy Davies said genuine holiday businesses will be caught up in a policy designed to clamp down on second homes. “Like dolphins accidentally caught in fishing nets, these businesses will die,” she cautioned.
On Tuesday, finance minister Rebecca Evans issued a written statement confirming Cardiff was pushing ahead with its plans despite opposition from the tourism sector. As with the Welsh Government’s new council tax policies, the approach is designed to tackle the housing crisis in Welsh-speaking communities in holiday hotspots.
The minister acknowledged that the stronger criteria “may be challenging for some operators to meet”. But she said: “The purpose of the change is to help ensure property owners are making a fair contribution to local communities, for example by increasing their contribution to the local economy through greater letting activity, or by paying council tax on their properties.”
To continue paying business rates, holiday rentals must be let for 182 days from April 1, 2023. Currently, the threshold is just 70 days. If holidays fail to meet the threshold, they pay council tax instead - and from April 2023 local counties will have the power to charge a council tax premium of up to 300%, effectively quadrupling bills.
Sorry, this looks like great news. Why should properties that are empty for 294 days a year get a tax break? Let people live there instead of keeping them empty for occasional holidaymakers. Good work Welsh Labour.
You clearly do not understand just how toxic this is for Welsh labour here in the heart of the North Wales holiday industry which is about to have a tourist tax put on them from Drakeford as well
Maybe I just care about affordable housing more. Your empty-house policy leaves me as cold as a homeless person.
Destroying the holiday industry losing thousands of jobs in businesses across North Wales is madness and could only be dreamt up by a Corbynista who just does not understand the local economy and simply does not care
And scroll on a page, you'll see that North Wales's figures are actually the strongest in Wales, averaging at 64%.
Even if a number of providers decide to drop out of the market, all that will do is increase the occupancy in competitors.
No, sorry, it seems you've been taken in by a scare story. The numbers don't fit at all with the apocalyptic predictions. Welsh Labour derangement syndrome, as Leon would probably call it.
This combined with the tourist tax will hit the holiday industry and believe you me it features all the time in the local media and Welsh news as various businesses forecast a fall in visitor numbers and a loss of holiday accommodation
No, sorry, I don't believe you me.
Apart from anything you're pretending the tourist industry is solely based around the kind of self-catering accommodation being referred to. Hotels, camping & caravans are a big part of the tourist industry, and non self-catering accommodation drives people to restaurants instead of supermarkets for their evening meal. No, the more I think about this the more I think this is a good move. Prune out the holiday lets that are underoccupied and they become either better-run lets, or housing for actual people.
You are missing the point that all these businesses you quote are about to be hit with a tourist tax on top of this
If this had been proposed for Devon and Cornwall or the Lake district you would have had a torrent of anger from the holiday industry
And by the way I do not lie
Tim Farron is running for re-election on the very question of holiday lets. They aren't greatly popular in the Lakes with the locals who tend to rather priorities having somewhere to live.
Yes but they bring in the income that no doubt supports many of their jobs
There is a balance to be struck but applying a tourist tax and reducing holiday accommodation is not one of them
They don't bring in any income if they are empty. And reducing holiday accommodation is smack bang what Farron thinks will keep him his seat. He probably knows better than me what the locals think.
Another way in which the article is silly is that this could encourage prices DOWN. Think about it. You can offer discounts on midweek off-season stays if the guest is staying the weekend. That might encourage some people to stay an extra day or two. That brings in more money, it doesn't increase the costs associated with booking, checking in and out, or other flat rates. The local economy gets a boost and the guests get more holiday without it breaking the bank. Everyone's a winner, except people who prefer to moan at the Welsh government for partisan reasons.
North Wales is depopulating.
The growth of holiday accommodation/second homes is caused by economic policy.
If there are no jobs, then there is rural depopulation. The consequent growth in holiday accommodation is caused by the depopulation -- not the other way round. There are empty houses that can be bought cheaply and turned into holiday lets. If they were not holiday lets, they'd fall into disrepair.
There are plenty of falling down, sad, derelict houses in almost all areas of North Wales. People used to live in those houses. They don't now because of depopulation.
As for your ideas in holiday lets in Wales in the winter -- they are bonkers.
Most tourist attractions in North Wales are shut in low season. Most restaurants are shut then (or have very limited hours).
No one is going to go and spend a few extra days in the middle of winter at Talsarnau, when there is nothing to do, nothing is open and the weather is wet, just because of Drakeford's idiotic policy.
I don't think Drakeford's plan makes much sense, apart from in some of the coastal resorts where second homes are a real problem (e.g. Aberdyfi, Tenby, Abersoch, Gwyr). In the rest of the country @Big_G_NorthWales is right -- they will destroy businesses and value.
Except occupancy rates are already above the thresholds that will be affected by this! This isn't a policy that will affect the average let. It's the ones that are taking up space and not generating income. An empty guest house doesn't do anything for the local economy.
As for "tourist attractions" being shut in the winter, that really depends. Museums and galleries are often open outside high season. Natural spaces like Snowdonia, Holy Island, Alyn Waters are open all year round.
I actually live in a formally very prosperous town in North Wales.
There are many houses that are just empty. I can go to my window and look out and count them. They are not second homes, they are just properties that are not let and no-one wants to live in.
I actually live in North Wales in the winter. I know the restaurants are usually shut completely in Jan & Feb, and they have restricted opening hours Oct-Mar
Museum and galleries in North Wales are almost always shut in the low season, apart from a few large attractions like Caernarfon Castle. Many CADW properties are shut in the winter.
Jesus .. you are behaving like HYUFD.
You live in Aberdeenshire, you are quoting guff from Welsh Government websites .. and everyone who knows North Wales is telling you that you are talking garbage.
If you told me something about Aberdeenshire, I'd believe you .. rather than going to google and quoting a government statistic back at you.
You're making out like North Wales tourism is a rare orchid that flowers for nine minutes per year. I guess the 600,000 annual visitors to Snowdon are all up on the summit in one mad stampede?
The Snowdon mountain railway is closed during winter
Furthermore there are numerous times in the winter Snowdon is inaccessable
I am not sure you have even visited North Wales but from October to Easter few visitors are evident no matter if attractions are open
Drakeford's destroying North Wales holiday industry from Cardiff
Tourism leaders in Wales have reacted with horror to confirmation of new occupancy rules for second homes and holiday lets. From April 1, 2023, the Welsh Government will insist that self-catering properties are let for at least 182 days each year in a move critics say will “decimate” the Welsh tourism industry.
Holiday lettings firm Finest Retreats, which promotes 29 holiday cottages in Wales, warned the challenging occupancy target will hit rural economies the hardest by driving up prices and making the country a “less attractive place to visit”. Tom Giffard, Welsh Conservative shadow tourism minister said it was a “devastating blow”, adding: “These new letting requirements will frankly be impossible for many self-caterers to meet.”
The Wales Tourism Alliance (WTA), which represents 6,000 tourism operators in Wales, believes 84% of the country's holiday lets could now be forced to close. WTA chair Suzy Davies said genuine holiday businesses will be caught up in a policy designed to clamp down on second homes. “Like dolphins accidentally caught in fishing nets, these businesses will die,” she cautioned.
On Tuesday, finance minister Rebecca Evans issued a written statement confirming Cardiff was pushing ahead with its plans despite opposition from the tourism sector. As with the Welsh Government’s new council tax policies, the approach is designed to tackle the housing crisis in Welsh-speaking communities in holiday hotspots.
The minister acknowledged that the stronger criteria “may be challenging for some operators to meet”. But she said: “The purpose of the change is to help ensure property owners are making a fair contribution to local communities, for example by increasing their contribution to the local economy through greater letting activity, or by paying council tax on their properties.”
To continue paying business rates, holiday rentals must be let for 182 days from April 1, 2023. Currently, the threshold is just 70 days. If holidays fail to meet the threshold, they pay council tax instead - and from April 2023 local counties will have the power to charge a council tax premium of up to 300%, effectively quadrupling bills.
Sorry, this looks like great news. Why should properties that are empty for 294 days a year get a tax break? Let people live there instead of keeping them empty for occasional holidaymakers. Good work Welsh Labour.
You clearly do not understand just how toxic this is for Welsh labour here in the heart of the North Wales holiday industry which is about to have a tourist tax put on them from Drakeford as well
Maybe I just care about affordable housing more. Your empty-house policy leaves me as cold as a homeless person.
Destroying the holiday industry losing thousands of jobs in businesses across North Wales is madness and could only be dreamt up by a Corbynista who just does not understand the local economy and simply does not care
And scroll on a page, you'll see that North Wales's figures are actually the strongest in Wales, averaging at 64%.
Even if a number of providers decide to drop out of the market, all that will do is increase the occupancy in competitors.
No, sorry, it seems you've been taken in by a scare story. The numbers don't fit at all with the apocalyptic predictions. Welsh Labour derangement syndrome, as Leon would probably call it.
This combined with the tourist tax will hit the holiday industry and believe you me it features all the time in the local media and Welsh news as various businesses forecast a fall in visitor numbers and a loss of holiday accommodation
No, sorry, I don't believe you me.
Apart from anything you're pretending the tourist industry is solely based around the kind of self-catering accommodation being referred to. Hotels, camping & caravans are a big part of the tourist industry, and non self-catering accommodation drives people to restaurants instead of supermarkets for their evening meal. No, the more I think about this the more I think this is a good move. Prune out the holiday lets that are underoccupied and they become either better-run lets, or housing for actual people.
You are missing the point that all these businesses you quote are about to be hit with a tourist tax on top of this
If this had been proposed for Devon and Cornwall or the Lake district you would have had a torrent of anger from the holiday industry
And by the way I do not lie
Tim Farron is running for re-election on the very question of holiday lets. They aren't greatly popular in the Lakes with the locals who tend to rather priorities having somewhere to live.
Yes but they bring in the income that no doubt supports many of their jobs
There is a balance to be struck but applying a tourist tax and reducing holiday accommodation is not one of them
They don't bring in any income if they are empty. And reducing holiday accommodation is smack bang what Farron thinks will keep him his seat. He probably knows better than me what the locals think.
Another way in which the article is silly is that this could encourage prices DOWN. Think about it. You can offer discounts on midweek off-season stays if the guest is staying the weekend. That might encourage some people to stay an extra day or two. That brings in more money, it doesn't increase the costs associated with booking, checking in and out, or other flat rates. The local economy gets a boost and the guests get more holiday without it breaking the bank. Everyone's a winner, except people who prefer to moan at the Welsh government for partisan reasons.
North Wales is depopulating.
The growth of holiday accommodation/second homes is caused by economic policy.
If there are no jobs, then there is rural depopulation. The consequent growth in holiday accommodation is caused by the depopulation -- not the other way round. There are empty houses that can be bought cheaply and turned into holiday lets. If they were not holiday lets, they'd fall into disrepair.
There are plenty of falling down, sad, derelict houses in almost all areas of North Wales. People used to live in those houses. They don't now because of depopulation.
As for your ideas in holiday lets in Wales in the winter -- they are bonkers.
Most tourist attractions in North Wales are shut in low season. Most restaurants are shut then (or have very limited hours).
No one is going to go and spend a few extra days in the middle of winter at Talsarnau, when there is nothing to do, nothing is open and the weather is wet, just because of Drakeford's idiotic policy.
I don't think Drakeford's plan makes much sense, apart from in some of the coastal resorts where second homes are a real problem (e.g. Aberdyfi, Tenby, Abersoch, Gwyr). In the rest of the country @Big_G_NorthWales is right -- they will destroy businesses and value.
Except occupancy rates are already above the thresholds that will be affected by this! This isn't a policy that will affect the average let. It's the ones that are taking up space and not generating income. An empty guest house doesn't do anything for the local economy.
As for "tourist attractions" being shut in the winter, that really depends. Museums and galleries are often open outside high season. Natural spaces like Snowdonia, Holy Island, Alyn Waters are open all year round.
I actually live in a formally very prosperous town in North Wales.
There are many houses that are just empty. I can go to my window and look out and count them. They are not second homes, they are just properties that are not let and no-one wants to live in.
I actually live in North Wales in the winter. I know the restaurants are usually shut completely in Jan & Feb, and they have restricted opening hours Oct-Mar
Museum and galleries in North Wales are almost always shut in the low season, apart from a few large attractions like Caernarfon Castle. Many CADW properties are shut in the winter.
Jesus .. you are behaving like HYUFD.
You live in Aberdeenshire, you are quoting guff from Welsh Government websites .. and everyone who knows North Wales is telling you that you are talking garbage.
If you told me something about Aberdeenshire, I'd believe you .. rather than going to google and quoting a government statistic back at you.
It amazes me how someone living in the North East of Scotland attempts to argue with those of us who live in the area, are familiar with the proposals, and know the reaction from those in the holiday industry
I'd be interested in some numbers here. If I have understood it, if you don't let for 6 months of year you will now pay 300% of council tax (as it is a 2nd home). Average council tax is what £2000 a year? So we are talking ≈≈ £6K.
So what is the business rate on a holiday let cottage?
What stops you renting it out to a friend for minor fee to make up your days?
A cynic might say because actually it is a 2nd home that is used by family for several months a year and then let to holiday makers in the gaps.
Drakeford's destroying North Wales holiday industry from Cardiff
Tourism leaders in Wales have reacted with horror to confirmation of new occupancy rules for second homes and holiday lets. From April 1, 2023, the Welsh Government will insist that self-catering properties are let for at least 182 days each year in a move critics say will “decimate” the Welsh tourism industry.
Holiday lettings firm Finest Retreats, which promotes 29 holiday cottages in Wales, warned the challenging occupancy target will hit rural economies the hardest by driving up prices and making the country a “less attractive place to visit”. Tom Giffard, Welsh Conservative shadow tourism minister said it was a “devastating blow”, adding: “These new letting requirements will frankly be impossible for many self-caterers to meet.”
The Wales Tourism Alliance (WTA), which represents 6,000 tourism operators in Wales, believes 84% of the country's holiday lets could now be forced to close. WTA chair Suzy Davies said genuine holiday businesses will be caught up in a policy designed to clamp down on second homes. “Like dolphins accidentally caught in fishing nets, these businesses will die,” she cautioned.
On Tuesday, finance minister Rebecca Evans issued a written statement confirming Cardiff was pushing ahead with its plans despite opposition from the tourism sector. As with the Welsh Government’s new council tax policies, the approach is designed to tackle the housing crisis in Welsh-speaking communities in holiday hotspots.
The minister acknowledged that the stronger criteria “may be challenging for some operators to meet”. But she said: “The purpose of the change is to help ensure property owners are making a fair contribution to local communities, for example by increasing their contribution to the local economy through greater letting activity, or by paying council tax on their properties.”
To continue paying business rates, holiday rentals must be let for 182 days from April 1, 2023. Currently, the threshold is just 70 days. If holidays fail to meet the threshold, they pay council tax instead - and from April 2023 local counties will have the power to charge a council tax premium of up to 300%, effectively quadrupling bills.
Sorry, this looks like great news. Why should properties that are empty for 294 days a year get a tax break? Let people live there instead of keeping them empty for occasional holidaymakers. Good work Welsh Labour.
You clearly do not understand just how toxic this is for Welsh labour here in the heart of the North Wales holiday industry which is about to have a tourist tax put on them from Drakeford as well
Maybe I just care about affordable housing more. Your empty-house policy leaves me as cold as a homeless person.
Destroying the holiday industry losing thousands of jobs in businesses across North Wales is madness and could only be dreamt up by a Corbynista who just does not understand the local economy and simply does not care
And scroll on a page, you'll see that North Wales's figures are actually the strongest in Wales, averaging at 64%.
Even if a number of providers decide to drop out of the market, all that will do is increase the occupancy in competitors.
No, sorry, it seems you've been taken in by a scare story. The numbers don't fit at all with the apocalyptic predictions. Welsh Labour derangement syndrome, as Leon would probably call it.
This combined with the tourist tax will hit the holiday industry and believe you me it features all the time in the local media and Welsh news as various businesses forecast a fall in visitor numbers and a loss of holiday accommodation
No, sorry, I don't believe you me.
Apart from anything you're pretending the tourist industry is solely based around the kind of self-catering accommodation being referred to. Hotels, camping & caravans are a big part of the tourist industry, and non self-catering accommodation drives people to restaurants instead of supermarkets for their evening meal. No, the more I think about this the more I think this is a good move. Prune out the holiday lets that are underoccupied and they become either better-run lets, or housing for actual people.
You are missing the point that all these businesses you quote are about to be hit with a tourist tax on top of this
If this had been proposed for Devon and Cornwall or the Lake district you would have had a torrent of anger from the holiday industry
And by the way I do not lie
Tim Farron is running for re-election on the very question of holiday lets. They aren't greatly popular in the Lakes with the locals who tend to rather priorities having somewhere to live.
Yes but they bring in the income that no doubt supports many of their jobs
There is a balance to be struck but applying a tourist tax and reducing holiday accommodation is not one of them
They don't bring in any income if they are empty. And reducing holiday accommodation is smack bang what Farron thinks will keep him his seat. He probably knows better than me what the locals think.
Another way in which the article is silly is that this could encourage prices DOWN. Think about it. You can offer discounts on midweek off-season stays if the guest is staying the weekend. That might encourage some people to stay an extra day or two. That brings in more money, it doesn't increase the costs associated with booking, checking in and out, or other flat rates. The local economy gets a boost and the guests get more holiday without it breaking the bank. Everyone's a winner, except people who prefer to moan at the Welsh government for partisan reasons.
North Wales is depopulating.
The growth of holiday accommodation/second homes is caused by economic policy.
If there are no jobs, then there is rural depopulation. The consequent growth in holiday accommodation is caused by the depopulation -- not the other way round. There are empty houses that can be bought cheaply and turned into holiday lets. If they were not holiday lets, they'd fall into disrepair.
There are plenty of falling down, sad, derelict houses in almost all areas of North Wales. People used to live in those houses. They don't now because of depopulation.
As for your ideas in holiday lets in Wales in the winter -- they are bonkers.
Most tourist attractions in North Wales are shut in low season. Most restaurants are shut then (or have very limited hours).
No one is going to go and spend a few extra days in the middle of winter at Talsarnau, when there is nothing to do, nothing is open and the weather is wet, just because of Drakeford's idiotic policy.
I don't think Drakeford's plan makes much sense, apart from in some of the coastal resorts where second homes are a real problem (e.g. Aberdyfi, Tenby, Abersoch, Gwyr). In the rest of the country @Big_G_NorthWales is right -- they will destroy businesses and value.
Except occupancy rates are already above the thresholds that will be affected by this! This isn't a policy that will affect the average let. It's the ones that are taking up space and not generating income. An empty guest house doesn't do anything for the local economy.
As for "tourist attractions" being shut in the winter, that really depends. Museums and galleries are often open outside high season. Natural spaces like Snowdonia, Holy Island, Alyn Waters are open all year round.
I actually live in a formally very prosperous town in North Wales.
There are many houses that are just empty. I can go to my window and look out and count them. They are not second homes, they are just properties that are not let and no-one wants to live in.
I actually live in North Wales in the winter. I know the restaurants are usually shut completely in Jan & Feb, and they have restricted opening hours Oct-Mar
Museum and galleries in North Wales are almost always shut in the low season, apart from a few large attractions like Caernarfon Castle. Many CADW properties are shut in the winter.
Jesus .. you are behaving like HYUFD.
You live in Aberdeenshire, you are quoting guff from Welsh Government websites .. and everyone who knows North Wales is telling you that you are talking garbage.
If you told me something about Aberdeenshire, I'd believe you .. rather than going to google and quoting a government statistic back at you.
It amazes me how someone living in the North East of Scotland attempts to argue with those of us who live in the area, are familiar with the proposals, and know the reaction from those in the holiday industry
I'd be interested in some numbers here. If I have understood it, if you don't let for 6 months of year you will now pay 300% of council tax (as it is a 2nd home). Average council tax is what £2000 a year? So we are talking ≈≈ £6K.
So what is the business rate on a holiday let cottage?
What stops you renting it out to a friend for minor fee to make up your days?
A cynic might say because actually it is a 2nd home that is used by family for several months a year and then let to holiday makers in the gaps.
I didn't say your mate actually stay there....i'll "rent" yours, you "rent" mine.
Drakeford's destroying North Wales holiday industry from Cardiff
Tourism leaders in Wales have reacted with horror to confirmation of new occupancy rules for second homes and holiday lets. From April 1, 2023, the Welsh Government will insist that self-catering properties are let for at least 182 days each year in a move critics say will “decimate” the Welsh tourism industry.
Holiday lettings firm Finest Retreats, which promotes 29 holiday cottages in Wales, warned the challenging occupancy target will hit rural economies the hardest by driving up prices and making the country a “less attractive place to visit”. Tom Giffard, Welsh Conservative shadow tourism minister said it was a “devastating blow”, adding: “These new letting requirements will frankly be impossible for many self-caterers to meet.”
The Wales Tourism Alliance (WTA), which represents 6,000 tourism operators in Wales, believes 84% of the country's holiday lets could now be forced to close. WTA chair Suzy Davies said genuine holiday businesses will be caught up in a policy designed to clamp down on second homes. “Like dolphins accidentally caught in fishing nets, these businesses will die,” she cautioned.
On Tuesday, finance minister Rebecca Evans issued a written statement confirming Cardiff was pushing ahead with its plans despite opposition from the tourism sector. As with the Welsh Government’s new council tax policies, the approach is designed to tackle the housing crisis in Welsh-speaking communities in holiday hotspots.
The minister acknowledged that the stronger criteria “may be challenging for some operators to meet”. But she said: “The purpose of the change is to help ensure property owners are making a fair contribution to local communities, for example by increasing their contribution to the local economy through greater letting activity, or by paying council tax on their properties.”
To continue paying business rates, holiday rentals must be let for 182 days from April 1, 2023. Currently, the threshold is just 70 days. If holidays fail to meet the threshold, they pay council tax instead - and from April 2023 local counties will have the power to charge a council tax premium of up to 300%, effectively quadrupling bills.
Sorry, this looks like great news. Why should properties that are empty for 294 days a year get a tax break? Let people live there instead of keeping them empty for occasional holidaymakers. Good work Welsh Labour.
You clearly do not understand just how toxic this is for Welsh labour here in the heart of the North Wales holiday industry which is about to have a tourist tax put on them from Drakeford as well
Maybe I just care about affordable housing more. Your empty-house policy leaves me as cold as a homeless person.
Destroying the holiday industry losing thousands of jobs in businesses across North Wales is madness and could only be dreamt up by a Corbynista who just does not understand the local economy and simply does not care
And scroll on a page, you'll see that North Wales's figures are actually the strongest in Wales, averaging at 64%.
Even if a number of providers decide to drop out of the market, all that will do is increase the occupancy in competitors.
No, sorry, it seems you've been taken in by a scare story. The numbers don't fit at all with the apocalyptic predictions. Welsh Labour derangement syndrome, as Leon would probably call it.
This combined with the tourist tax will hit the holiday industry and believe you me it features all the time in the local media and Welsh news as various businesses forecast a fall in visitor numbers and a loss of holiday accommodation
No, sorry, I don't believe you me.
Apart from anything you're pretending the tourist industry is solely based around the kind of self-catering accommodation being referred to. Hotels, camping & caravans are a big part of the tourist industry, and non self-catering accommodation drives people to restaurants instead of supermarkets for their evening meal. No, the more I think about this the more I think this is a good move. Prune out the holiday lets that are underoccupied and they become either better-run lets, or housing for actual people.
You are missing the point that all these businesses you quote are about to be hit with a tourist tax on top of this
If this had been proposed for Devon and Cornwall or the Lake district you would have had a torrent of anger from the holiday industry
And by the way I do not lie
Tim Farron is running for re-election on the very question of holiday lets. They aren't greatly popular in the Lakes with the locals who tend to rather priorities having somewhere to live.
Yes but they bring in the income that no doubt supports many of their jobs
There is a balance to be struck but applying a tourist tax and reducing holiday accommodation is not one of them
They don't bring in any income if they are empty. And reducing holiday accommodation is smack bang what Farron thinks will keep him his seat. He probably knows better than me what the locals think.
Another way in which the article is silly is that this could encourage prices DOWN. Think about it. You can offer discounts on midweek off-season stays if the guest is staying the weekend. That might encourage some people to stay an extra day or two. That brings in more money, it doesn't increase the costs associated with booking, checking in and out, or other flat rates. The local economy gets a boost and the guests get more holiday without it breaking the bank. Everyone's a winner, except people who prefer to moan at the Welsh government for partisan reasons.
North Wales is depopulating.
The growth of holiday accommodation/second homes is caused by economic policy.
If there are no jobs, then there is rural depopulation. The consequent growth in holiday accommodation is caused by the depopulation -- not the other way round. There are empty houses that can be bought cheaply and turned into holiday lets. If they were not holiday lets, they'd fall into disrepair.
There are plenty of falling down, sad, derelict houses in almost all areas of North Wales. People used to live in those houses. They don't now because of depopulation.
As for your ideas in holiday lets in Wales in the winter -- they are bonkers.
Most tourist attractions in North Wales are shut in low season. Most restaurants are shut then (or have very limited hours).
No one is going to go and spend a few extra days in the middle of winter at Talsarnau, when there is nothing to do, nothing is open and the weather is wet, just because of Drakeford's idiotic policy.
I don't think Drakeford's plan makes much sense, apart from in some of the coastal resorts where second homes are a real problem (e.g. Aberdyfi, Tenby, Abersoch, Gwyr). In the rest of the country @Big_G_NorthWales is right -- they will destroy businesses and value.
Except occupancy rates are already above the thresholds that will be affected by this! This isn't a policy that will affect the average let. It's the ones that are taking up space and not generating income. An empty guest house doesn't do anything for the local economy.
As for "tourist attractions" being shut in the winter, that really depends. Museums and galleries are often open outside high season. Natural spaces like Snowdonia, Holy Island, Alyn Waters are open all year round.
I actually live in a formally very prosperous town in North Wales.
There are many houses that are just empty. I can go to my window and look out and count them. They are not second homes, they are just properties that are not let and no-one wants to live in.
I actually live in North Wales in the winter. I know the restaurants are usually shut completely in Jan & Feb, and they have restricted opening hours Oct-Mar
Museum and galleries in North Wales are almost always shut in the low season, apart from a few large attractions like Caernarfon Castle. Many CADW properties are shut in the winter.
Jesus .. you are behaving like HYUFD.
You live in Aberdeenshire, you are quoting guff from Welsh Government websites .. and everyone who knows North Wales is telling you that you are talking garbage.
If you told me something about Aberdeenshire, I'd believe you .. rather than going to google and quoting a government statistic back at you.
It amazes me how someone living in the North East of Scotland attempts to argue with those of us who live in the area, are familiar with the proposals, and know the reaction from those in the holiday industry
I'd be interested in some numbers here. If I have understood it, if you don't let for 6 months of year you will now pay 300% of council tax (as it is a 2nd home). Average council tax is what £2000 a year? So we are talking ≈≈ £6K.
So what is the business rate on a holiday let cottage?
Not quite. As I understand it, they'll pay council tax instead of business rates and the local authority can choose to charge the 300%. That means people down in Cardiff (or even up here in Aberdeenshire!) won't be doing anything other than making sure barely occupied houses are charged council tax. It's a long way from the End of Times some people would have you believe.
Drakeford's destroying North Wales holiday industry from Cardiff
Tourism leaders in Wales have reacted with horror to confirmation of new occupancy rules for second homes and holiday lets. From April 1, 2023, the Welsh Government will insist that self-catering properties are let for at least 182 days each year in a move critics say will “decimate” the Welsh tourism industry.
Holiday lettings firm Finest Retreats, which promotes 29 holiday cottages in Wales, warned the challenging occupancy target will hit rural economies the hardest by driving up prices and making the country a “less attractive place to visit”. Tom Giffard, Welsh Conservative shadow tourism minister said it was a “devastating blow”, adding: “These new letting requirements will frankly be impossible for many self-caterers to meet.”
The Wales Tourism Alliance (WTA), which represents 6,000 tourism operators in Wales, believes 84% of the country's holiday lets could now be forced to close. WTA chair Suzy Davies said genuine holiday businesses will be caught up in a policy designed to clamp down on second homes. “Like dolphins accidentally caught in fishing nets, these businesses will die,” she cautioned.
On Tuesday, finance minister Rebecca Evans issued a written statement confirming Cardiff was pushing ahead with its plans despite opposition from the tourism sector. As with the Welsh Government’s new council tax policies, the approach is designed to tackle the housing crisis in Welsh-speaking communities in holiday hotspots.
The minister acknowledged that the stronger criteria “may be challenging for some operators to meet”. But she said: “The purpose of the change is to help ensure property owners are making a fair contribution to local communities, for example by increasing their contribution to the local economy through greater letting activity, or by paying council tax on their properties.”
To continue paying business rates, holiday rentals must be let for 182 days from April 1, 2023. Currently, the threshold is just 70 days. If holidays fail to meet the threshold, they pay council tax instead - and from April 2023 local counties will have the power to charge a council tax premium of up to 300%, effectively quadrupling bills.
Sorry, this looks like great news. Why should properties that are empty for 294 days a year get a tax break? Let people live there instead of keeping them empty for occasional holidaymakers. Good work Welsh Labour.
You clearly do not understand just how toxic this is for Welsh labour here in the heart of the North Wales holiday industry which is about to have a tourist tax put on them from Drakeford as well
Maybe I just care about affordable housing more. Your empty-house policy leaves me as cold as a homeless person.
Destroying the holiday industry losing thousands of jobs in businesses across North Wales is madness and could only be dreamt up by a Corbynista who just does not understand the local economy and simply does not care
And scroll on a page, you'll see that North Wales's figures are actually the strongest in Wales, averaging at 64%.
Even if a number of providers decide to drop out of the market, all that will do is increase the occupancy in competitors.
No, sorry, it seems you've been taken in by a scare story. The numbers don't fit at all with the apocalyptic predictions. Welsh Labour derangement syndrome, as Leon would probably call it.
This combined with the tourist tax will hit the holiday industry and believe you me it features all the time in the local media and Welsh news as various businesses forecast a fall in visitor numbers and a loss of holiday accommodation
No, sorry, I don't believe you me.
Apart from anything you're pretending the tourist industry is solely based around the kind of self-catering accommodation being referred to. Hotels, camping & caravans are a big part of the tourist industry, and non self-catering accommodation drives people to restaurants instead of supermarkets for their evening meal. No, the more I think about this the more I think this is a good move. Prune out the holiday lets that are underoccupied and they become either better-run lets, or housing for actual people.
You are missing the point that all these businesses you quote are about to be hit with a tourist tax on top of this
If this had been proposed for Devon and Cornwall or the Lake district you would have had a torrent of anger from the holiday industry
And by the way I do not lie
Tim Farron is running for re-election on the very question of holiday lets. They aren't greatly popular in the Lakes with the locals who tend to rather priorities having somewhere to live.
Yes but they bring in the income that no doubt supports many of their jobs
There is a balance to be struck but applying a tourist tax and reducing holiday accommodation is not one of them
They don't bring in any income if they are empty. And reducing holiday accommodation is smack bang what Farron thinks will keep him his seat. He probably knows better than me what the locals think.
Another way in which the article is silly is that this could encourage prices DOWN. Think about it. You can offer discounts on midweek off-season stays if the guest is staying the weekend. That might encourage some people to stay an extra day or two. That brings in more money, it doesn't increase the costs associated with booking, checking in and out, or other flat rates. The local economy gets a boost and the guests get more holiday without it breaking the bank. Everyone's a winner, except people who prefer to moan at the Welsh government for partisan reasons.
North Wales is depopulating.
The growth of holiday accommodation/second homes is caused by economic policy.
If there are no jobs, then there is rural depopulation. The consequent growth in holiday accommodation is caused by the depopulation -- not the other way round. There are empty houses that can be bought cheaply and turned into holiday lets. If they were not holiday lets, they'd fall into disrepair.
There are plenty of falling down, sad, derelict houses in almost all areas of North Wales. People used to live in those houses. They don't now because of depopulation.
As for your ideas in holiday lets in Wales in the winter -- they are bonkers.
Most tourist attractions in North Wales are shut in low season. Most restaurants are shut then (or have very limited hours).
No one is going to go and spend a few extra days in the middle of winter at Talsarnau, when there is nothing to do, nothing is open and the weather is wet, just because of Drakeford's idiotic policy.
I don't think Drakeford's plan makes much sense, apart from in some of the coastal resorts where second homes are a real problem (e.g. Aberdyfi, Tenby, Abersoch, Gwyr). In the rest of the country @Big_G_NorthWales is right -- they will destroy businesses and value.
Except occupancy rates are already above the thresholds that will be affected by this! This isn't a policy that will affect the average let. It's the ones that are taking up space and not generating income. An empty guest house doesn't do anything for the local economy.
As for "tourist attractions" being shut in the winter, that really depends. Museums and galleries are often open outside high season. Natural spaces like Snowdonia, Holy Island, Alyn Waters are open all year round.
I actually live in a formally very prosperous town in North Wales.
There are many houses that are just empty. I can go to my window and look out and count them. They are not second homes, they are just properties that are not let and no-one wants to live in.
I actually live in North Wales in the winter. I know the restaurants are usually shut completely in Jan & Feb, and they have restricted opening hours Oct-Mar
Museum and galleries in North Wales are almost always shut in the low season, apart from a few large attractions like Caernarfon Castle. Many CADW properties are shut in the winter.
Jesus .. you are behaving like HYUFD.
You live in Aberdeenshire, you are quoting guff from Welsh Government websites .. and everyone who knows North Wales is telling you that you are talking garbage.
If you told me something about Aberdeenshire, I'd believe you .. rather than going to google and quoting a government statistic back at you.
You're making out like North Wales tourism is a rare orchid that flowers for nine minutes per year. I guess the 600,000 annual visitors to Snowdon are all up on the summit in one mad stampede?
Try going on the Snowdon Mountain Railway site:
"Diesel departures leave Llanberis Station daily (weather conditions permitting) from the 14th April until the end of October every 30 minutes from 9am, subject to passenger demand.
Steam departures run from the 3rd June until the 11th September three times a day from 10:30am (weather conditions permitting)."
I don't suppose it will convince you -- because, from your roosting spot in Aberdeenshire, you clearly know more about North Wales than the actual residents, or the people running tourist attractions like Snowdon Mountain Railway.
Drakeford's destroying North Wales holiday industry from Cardiff
Tourism leaders in Wales have reacted with horror to confirmation of new occupancy rules for second homes and holiday lets. From April 1, 2023, the Welsh Government will insist that self-catering properties are let for at least 182 days each year in a move critics say will “decimate” the Welsh tourism industry.
Holiday lettings firm Finest Retreats, which promotes 29 holiday cottages in Wales, warned the challenging occupancy target will hit rural economies the hardest by driving up prices and making the country a “less attractive place to visit”. Tom Giffard, Welsh Conservative shadow tourism minister said it was a “devastating blow”, adding: “These new letting requirements will frankly be impossible for many self-caterers to meet.”
The Wales Tourism Alliance (WTA), which represents 6,000 tourism operators in Wales, believes 84% of the country's holiday lets could now be forced to close. WTA chair Suzy Davies said genuine holiday businesses will be caught up in a policy designed to clamp down on second homes. “Like dolphins accidentally caught in fishing nets, these businesses will die,” she cautioned.
On Tuesday, finance minister Rebecca Evans issued a written statement confirming Cardiff was pushing ahead with its plans despite opposition from the tourism sector. As with the Welsh Government’s new council tax policies, the approach is designed to tackle the housing crisis in Welsh-speaking communities in holiday hotspots.
The minister acknowledged that the stronger criteria “may be challenging for some operators to meet”. But she said: “The purpose of the change is to help ensure property owners are making a fair contribution to local communities, for example by increasing their contribution to the local economy through greater letting activity, or by paying council tax on their properties.”
To continue paying business rates, holiday rentals must be let for 182 days from April 1, 2023. Currently, the threshold is just 70 days. If holidays fail to meet the threshold, they pay council tax instead - and from April 2023 local counties will have the power to charge a council tax premium of up to 300%, effectively quadrupling bills.
Sorry, this looks like great news. Why should properties that are empty for 294 days a year get a tax break? Let people live there instead of keeping them empty for occasional holidaymakers. Good work Welsh Labour.
You clearly do not understand just how toxic this is for Welsh labour here in the heart of the North Wales holiday industry which is about to have a tourist tax put on them from Drakeford as well
Maybe I just care about affordable housing more. Your empty-house policy leaves me as cold as a homeless person.
Destroying the holiday industry losing thousands of jobs in businesses across North Wales is madness and could only be dreamt up by a Corbynista who just does not understand the local economy and simply does not care
And scroll on a page, you'll see that North Wales's figures are actually the strongest in Wales, averaging at 64%.
Even if a number of providers decide to drop out of the market, all that will do is increase the occupancy in competitors.
No, sorry, it seems you've been taken in by a scare story. The numbers don't fit at all with the apocalyptic predictions. Welsh Labour derangement syndrome, as Leon would probably call it.
This combined with the tourist tax will hit the holiday industry and believe you me it features all the time in the local media and Welsh news as various businesses forecast a fall in visitor numbers and a loss of holiday accommodation
No, sorry, I don't believe you me.
Apart from anything you're pretending the tourist industry is solely based around the kind of self-catering accommodation being referred to. Hotels, camping & caravans are a big part of the tourist industry, and non self-catering accommodation drives people to restaurants instead of supermarkets for their evening meal. No, the more I think about this the more I think this is a good move. Prune out the holiday lets that are underoccupied and they become either better-run lets, or housing for actual people.
You are missing the point that all these businesses you quote are about to be hit with a tourist tax on top of this
If this had been proposed for Devon and Cornwall or the Lake district you would have had a torrent of anger from the holiday industry
And by the way I do not lie
Tim Farron is running for re-election on the very question of holiday lets. They aren't greatly popular in the Lakes with the locals who tend to rather priorities having somewhere to live.
Yes but they bring in the income that no doubt supports many of their jobs
There is a balance to be struck but applying a tourist tax and reducing holiday accommodation is not one of them
They don't bring in any income if they are empty. And reducing holiday accommodation is smack bang what Farron thinks will keep him his seat. He probably knows better than me what the locals think.
Another way in which the article is silly is that this could encourage prices DOWN. Think about it. You can offer discounts on midweek off-season stays if the guest is staying the weekend. That might encourage some people to stay an extra day or two. That brings in more money, it doesn't increase the costs associated with booking, checking in and out, or other flat rates. The local economy gets a boost and the guests get more holiday without it breaking the bank. Everyone's a winner, except people who prefer to moan at the Welsh government for partisan reasons.
North Wales is depopulating.
The growth of holiday accommodation/second homes is caused by economic policy.
If there are no jobs, then there is rural depopulation. The consequent growth in holiday accommodation is caused by the depopulation -- not the other way round. There are empty houses that can be bought cheaply and turned into holiday lets. If they were not holiday lets, they'd fall into disrepair.
There are plenty of falling down, sad, derelict houses in almost all areas of North Wales. People used to live in those houses. They don't now because of depopulation.
As for your ideas in holiday lets in Wales in the winter -- they are bonkers.
Most tourist attractions in North Wales are shut in low season. Most restaurants are shut then (or have very limited hours).
No one is going to go and spend a few extra days in the middle of winter at Talsarnau, when there is nothing to do, nothing is open and the weather is wet, just because of Drakeford's idiotic policy.
I don't think Drakeford's plan makes much sense, apart from in some of the coastal resorts where second homes are a real problem (e.g. Aberdyfi, Tenby, Abersoch, Gwyr). In the rest of the country @Big_G_NorthWales is right -- they will destroy businesses and value.
Except occupancy rates are already above the thresholds that will be affected by this! This isn't a policy that will affect the average let. It's the ones that are taking up space and not generating income. An empty guest house doesn't do anything for the local economy.
As for "tourist attractions" being shut in the winter, that really depends. Museums and galleries are often open outside high season. Natural spaces like Snowdonia, Holy Island, Alyn Waters are open all year round.
I actually live in a formally very prosperous town in North Wales.
There are many houses that are just empty. I can go to my window and look out and count them. They are not second homes, they are just properties that are not let and no-one wants to live in.
I actually live in North Wales in the winter. I know the restaurants are usually shut completely in Jan & Feb, and they have restricted opening hours Oct-Mar
Museum and galleries in North Wales are almost always shut in the low season, apart from a few large attractions like Caernarfon Castle. Many CADW properties are shut in the winter.
Jesus .. you are behaving like HYUFD.
You live in Aberdeenshire, you are quoting guff from Welsh Government websites .. and everyone who knows North Wales is telling you that you are talking garbage.
If you told me something about Aberdeenshire, I'd believe you .. rather than going to google and quoting a government statistic back at you.
It amazes me how someone living in the North East of Scotland attempts to argue with those of us who live in the area, are familiar with the proposals, and know the reaction from those in the holiday industry
I'd be interested in some numbers here. If I have understood it, if you don't let for 6 months of year you will now pay 300% of council tax (as it is a 2nd home). Average council tax is what £2000 a year? So we are talking ≈≈ £6K.
So what is the business rate on a holiday let cottage?
What stops you renting it out to a friend for minor fee to make up your days?
A cynic might say because actually it is a 2nd home that is used by family for several months a year and then let to holiday makers in the gaps.
I didn't say your mate actually stay there....
You are one of Boris Johnson's cronies and I claim my £5.
Drakeford's destroying North Wales holiday industry from Cardiff
Tourism leaders in Wales have reacted with horror to confirmation of new occupancy rules for second homes and holiday lets. From April 1, 2023, the Welsh Government will insist that self-catering properties are let for at least 182 days each year in a move critics say will “decimate” the Welsh tourism industry.
Holiday lettings firm Finest Retreats, which promotes 29 holiday cottages in Wales, warned the challenging occupancy target will hit rural economies the hardest by driving up prices and making the country a “less attractive place to visit”. Tom Giffard, Welsh Conservative shadow tourism minister said it was a “devastating blow”, adding: “These new letting requirements will frankly be impossible for many self-caterers to meet.”
The Wales Tourism Alliance (WTA), which represents 6,000 tourism operators in Wales, believes 84% of the country's holiday lets could now be forced to close. WTA chair Suzy Davies said genuine holiday businesses will be caught up in a policy designed to clamp down on second homes. “Like dolphins accidentally caught in fishing nets, these businesses will die,” she cautioned.
On Tuesday, finance minister Rebecca Evans issued a written statement confirming Cardiff was pushing ahead with its plans despite opposition from the tourism sector. As with the Welsh Government’s new council tax policies, the approach is designed to tackle the housing crisis in Welsh-speaking communities in holiday hotspots.
The minister acknowledged that the stronger criteria “may be challenging for some operators to meet”. But she said: “The purpose of the change is to help ensure property owners are making a fair contribution to local communities, for example by increasing their contribution to the local economy through greater letting activity, or by paying council tax on their properties.”
To continue paying business rates, holiday rentals must be let for 182 days from April 1, 2023. Currently, the threshold is just 70 days. If holidays fail to meet the threshold, they pay council tax instead - and from April 2023 local counties will have the power to charge a council tax premium of up to 300%, effectively quadrupling bills.
Sorry, this looks like great news. Why should properties that are empty for 294 days a year get a tax break? Let people live there instead of keeping them empty for occasional holidaymakers. Good work Welsh Labour.
You clearly do not understand just how toxic this is for Welsh labour here in the heart of the North Wales holiday industry which is about to have a tourist tax put on them from Drakeford as well
Maybe I just care about affordable housing more. Your empty-house policy leaves me as cold as a homeless person.
Destroying the holiday industry losing thousands of jobs in businesses across North Wales is madness and could only be dreamt up by a Corbynista who just does not understand the local economy and simply does not care
And scroll on a page, you'll see that North Wales's figures are actually the strongest in Wales, averaging at 64%.
Even if a number of providers decide to drop out of the market, all that will do is increase the occupancy in competitors.
No, sorry, it seems you've been taken in by a scare story. The numbers don't fit at all with the apocalyptic predictions. Welsh Labour derangement syndrome, as Leon would probably call it.
This combined with the tourist tax will hit the holiday industry and believe you me it features all the time in the local media and Welsh news as various businesses forecast a fall in visitor numbers and a loss of holiday accommodation
No, sorry, I don't believe you me.
Apart from anything you're pretending the tourist industry is solely based around the kind of self-catering accommodation being referred to. Hotels, camping & caravans are a big part of the tourist industry, and non self-catering accommodation drives people to restaurants instead of supermarkets for their evening meal. No, the more I think about this the more I think this is a good move. Prune out the holiday lets that are underoccupied and they become either better-run lets, or housing for actual people.
You are missing the point that all these businesses you quote are about to be hit with a tourist tax on top of this
If this had been proposed for Devon and Cornwall or the Lake district you would have had a torrent of anger from the holiday industry
And by the way I do not lie
Tim Farron is running for re-election on the very question of holiday lets. They aren't greatly popular in the Lakes with the locals who tend to rather priorities having somewhere to live.
Yes but they bring in the income that no doubt supports many of their jobs
There is a balance to be struck but applying a tourist tax and reducing holiday accommodation is not one of them
They don't bring in any income if they are empty. And reducing holiday accommodation is smack bang what Farron thinks will keep him his seat. He probably knows better than me what the locals think.
Another way in which the article is silly is that this could encourage prices DOWN. Think about it. You can offer discounts on midweek off-season stays if the guest is staying the weekend. That might encourage some people to stay an extra day or two. That brings in more money, it doesn't increase the costs associated with booking, checking in and out, or other flat rates. The local economy gets a boost and the guests get more holiday without it breaking the bank. Everyone's a winner, except people who prefer to moan at the Welsh government for partisan reasons.
North Wales is depopulating.
The growth of holiday accommodation/second homes is caused by economic policy.
If there are no jobs, then there is rural depopulation. The consequent growth in holiday accommodation is caused by the depopulation -- not the other way round. There are empty houses that can be bought cheaply and turned into holiday lets. If they were not holiday lets, they'd fall into disrepair.
There are plenty of falling down, sad, derelict houses in almost all areas of North Wales. People used to live in those houses. They don't now because of depopulation.
As for your ideas in holiday lets in Wales in the winter -- they are bonkers.
Most tourist attractions in North Wales are shut in low season. Most restaurants are shut then (or have very limited hours).
No one is going to go and spend a few extra days in the middle of winter at Talsarnau, when there is nothing to do, nothing is open and the weather is wet, just because of Drakeford's idiotic policy.
I don't think Drakeford's plan makes much sense, apart from in some of the coastal resorts where second homes are a real problem (e.g. Aberdyfi, Tenby, Abersoch, Gwyr). In the rest of the country @Big_G_NorthWales is right -- they will destroy businesses and value.
Except occupancy rates are already above the thresholds that will be affected by this! This isn't a policy that will affect the average let. It's the ones that are taking up space and not generating income. An empty guest house doesn't do anything for the local economy.
As for "tourist attractions" being shut in the winter, that really depends. Museums and galleries are often open outside high season. Natural spaces like Snowdonia, Holy Island, Alyn Waters are open all year round.
I actually live in a formally very prosperous town in North Wales.
There are many houses that are just empty. I can go to my window and look out and count them. They are not second homes, they are just properties that are not let and no-one wants to live in.
I actually live in North Wales in the winter. I know the restaurants are usually shut completely in Jan & Feb, and they have restricted opening hours Oct-Mar
Museum and galleries in North Wales are almost always shut in the low season, apart from a few large attractions like Caernarfon Castle. Many CADW properties are shut in the winter.
Jesus .. you are behaving like HYUFD.
You live in Aberdeenshire, you are quoting guff from Welsh Government websites .. and everyone who knows North Wales is telling you that you are talking garbage.
If you told me something about Aberdeenshire, I'd believe you .. rather than going to google and quoting a government statistic back at you.
It amazes me how someone living in the North East of Scotland attempts to argue with those of us who live in the area, are familiar with the proposals, and know the reaction from those in the holiday industry
I'd be interested in some numbers here. If I have understood it, if you don't let for 6 months of year you will now pay 300% of council tax (as it is a 2nd home). Average council tax is what £2000 a year? So we are talking ≈≈ £6K.
So what is the business rate on a holiday let cottage?
What stops you renting it out to a friend for minor fee to make up your days?
A cynic might say because actually it is a 2nd home that is used by family for several months a year and then let to holiday makers in the gaps.
I didn't say your mate actually stay there....
You are one of Boris Johnson's cronies and I claim my £5.
Nahhh, we know how to throw a proper party at Chez Urquhart....
Drakeford's destroying North Wales holiday industry from Cardiff
Tourism leaders in Wales have reacted with horror to confirmation of new occupancy rules for second homes and holiday lets. From April 1, 2023, the Welsh Government will insist that self-catering properties are let for at least 182 days each year in a move critics say will “decimate” the Welsh tourism industry.
Holiday lettings firm Finest Retreats, which promotes 29 holiday cottages in Wales, warned the challenging occupancy target will hit rural economies the hardest by driving up prices and making the country a “less attractive place to visit”. Tom Giffard, Welsh Conservative shadow tourism minister said it was a “devastating blow”, adding: “These new letting requirements will frankly be impossible for many self-caterers to meet.”
The Wales Tourism Alliance (WTA), which represents 6,000 tourism operators in Wales, believes 84% of the country's holiday lets could now be forced to close. WTA chair Suzy Davies said genuine holiday businesses will be caught up in a policy designed to clamp down on second homes. “Like dolphins accidentally caught in fishing nets, these businesses will die,” she cautioned.
On Tuesday, finance minister Rebecca Evans issued a written statement confirming Cardiff was pushing ahead with its plans despite opposition from the tourism sector. As with the Welsh Government’s new council tax policies, the approach is designed to tackle the housing crisis in Welsh-speaking communities in holiday hotspots.
The minister acknowledged that the stronger criteria “may be challenging for some operators to meet”. But she said: “The purpose of the change is to help ensure property owners are making a fair contribution to local communities, for example by increasing their contribution to the local economy through greater letting activity, or by paying council tax on their properties.”
To continue paying business rates, holiday rentals must be let for 182 days from April 1, 2023. Currently, the threshold is just 70 days. If holidays fail to meet the threshold, they pay council tax instead - and from April 2023 local counties will have the power to charge a council tax premium of up to 300%, effectively quadrupling bills.
Sorry, this looks like great news. Why should properties that are empty for 294 days a year get a tax break? Let people live there instead of keeping them empty for occasional holidaymakers. Good work Welsh Labour.
You clearly do not understand just how toxic this is for Welsh labour here in the heart of the North Wales holiday industry which is about to have a tourist tax put on them from Drakeford as well
Maybe I just care about affordable housing more. Your empty-house policy leaves me as cold as a homeless person.
Destroying the holiday industry losing thousands of jobs in businesses across North Wales is madness and could only be dreamt up by a Corbynista who just does not understand the local economy and simply does not care
And scroll on a page, you'll see that North Wales's figures are actually the strongest in Wales, averaging at 64%.
Even if a number of providers decide to drop out of the market, all that will do is increase the occupancy in competitors.
No, sorry, it seems you've been taken in by a scare story. The numbers don't fit at all with the apocalyptic predictions. Welsh Labour derangement syndrome, as Leon would probably call it.
This combined with the tourist tax will hit the holiday industry and believe you me it features all the time in the local media and Welsh news as various businesses forecast a fall in visitor numbers and a loss of holiday accommodation
No, sorry, I don't believe you me.
Apart from anything you're pretending the tourist industry is solely based around the kind of self-catering accommodation being referred to. Hotels, camping & caravans are a big part of the tourist industry, and non self-catering accommodation drives people to restaurants instead of supermarkets for their evening meal. No, the more I think about this the more I think this is a good move. Prune out the holiday lets that are underoccupied and they become either better-run lets, or housing for actual people.
You are missing the point that all these businesses you quote are about to be hit with a tourist tax on top of this
If this had been proposed for Devon and Cornwall or the Lake district you would have had a torrent of anger from the holiday industry
And by the way I do not lie
Tim Farron is running for re-election on the very question of holiday lets. They aren't greatly popular in the Lakes with the locals who tend to rather priorities having somewhere to live.
Yes but they bring in the income that no doubt supports many of their jobs
There is a balance to be struck but applying a tourist tax and reducing holiday accommodation is not one of them
They don't bring in any income if they are empty. And reducing holiday accommodation is smack bang what Farron thinks will keep him his seat. He probably knows better than me what the locals think.
Another way in which the article is silly is that this could encourage prices DOWN. Think about it. You can offer discounts on midweek off-season stays if the guest is staying the weekend. That might encourage some people to stay an extra day or two. That brings in more money, it doesn't increase the costs associated with booking, checking in and out, or other flat rates. The local economy gets a boost and the guests get more holiday without it breaking the bank. Everyone's a winner, except people who prefer to moan at the Welsh government for partisan reasons.
North Wales is depopulating.
The growth of holiday accommodation/second homes is caused by economic policy.
If there are no jobs, then there is rural depopulation. The consequent growth in holiday accommodation is caused by the depopulation -- not the other way round. There are empty houses that can be bought cheaply and turned into holiday lets. If they were not holiday lets, they'd fall into disrepair.
There are plenty of falling down, sad, derelict houses in almost all areas of North Wales. People used to live in those houses. They don't now because of depopulation.
As for your ideas in holiday lets in Wales in the winter -- they are bonkers.
Most tourist attractions in North Wales are shut in low season. Most restaurants are shut then (or have very limited hours).
No one is going to go and spend a few extra days in the middle of winter at Talsarnau, when there is nothing to do, nothing is open and the weather is wet, just because of Drakeford's idiotic policy.
I don't think Drakeford's plan makes much sense, apart from in some of the coastal resorts where second homes are a real problem (e.g. Aberdyfi, Tenby, Abersoch, Gwyr). In the rest of the country @Big_G_NorthWales is right -- they will destroy businesses and value.
Except occupancy rates are already above the thresholds that will be affected by this! This isn't a policy that will affect the average let. It's the ones that are taking up space and not generating income. An empty guest house doesn't do anything for the local economy.
As for "tourist attractions" being shut in the winter, that really depends. Museums and galleries are often open outside high season. Natural spaces like Snowdonia, Holy Island, Alyn Waters are open all year round.
I actually live in a formally very prosperous town in North Wales.
There are many houses that are just empty. I can go to my window and look out and count them. They are not second homes, they are just properties that are not let and no-one wants to live in.
I actually live in North Wales in the winter. I know the restaurants are usually shut completely in Jan & Feb, and they have restricted opening hours Oct-Mar
Museum and galleries in North Wales are almost always shut in the low season, apart from a few large attractions like Caernarfon Castle. Many CADW properties are shut in the winter.
Jesus .. you are behaving like HYUFD.
You live in Aberdeenshire, you are quoting guff from Welsh Government websites .. and everyone who knows North Wales is telling you that you are talking garbage.
If you told me something about Aberdeenshire, I'd believe you .. rather than going to google and quoting a government statistic back at you.
You're making out like North Wales tourism is a rare orchid that flowers for nine minutes per year. I guess the 600,000 annual visitors to Snowdon are all up on the summit in one mad stampede?
Try going on the Snowdon Mountain Railway site:
"Diesel departures leave Llanberis Station daily (weather conditions permitting) from the 14th April until the end of October every 30 minutes from 9am, subject to passenger demand.
Steam departures run from the 3rd June until the 11th September three times a day from 10:30am (weather conditions permitting)."
I don't suppose it will convince you -- because, from your roosting spot in Aberdeenshire, you clearly know more about North Wales than the actual residents, or the people running tourist attractions like Snowdon Mountain Railway.
It is pointless arguing with someone who has the @HYUFD attitude that he is right no matter others who are in touch with the issues daily
And he has not addressed the tourist tax which is an idiotic tax
If a US politician wanted to be radical they could suggest increasing the age limit to buy a gun to 21 and reducing the age limit to buy alcohol to 18.
I was surprised to learn recently that the drinking age in a lot of US states was indeed 18 in the 1970s and early 1980s.
Drakeford's destroying North Wales holiday industry from Cardiff
Tourism leaders in Wales have reacted with horror to confirmation of new occupancy rules for second homes and holiday lets. From April 1, 2023, the Welsh Government will insist that self-catering properties are let for at least 182 days each year in a move critics say will “decimate” the Welsh tourism industry.
Holiday lettings firm Finest Retreats, which promotes 29 holiday cottages in Wales, warned the challenging occupancy target will hit rural economies the hardest by driving up prices and making the country a “less attractive place to visit”. Tom Giffard, Welsh Conservative shadow tourism minister said it was a “devastating blow”, adding: “These new letting requirements will frankly be impossible for many self-caterers to meet.”
The Wales Tourism Alliance (WTA), which represents 6,000 tourism operators in Wales, believes 84% of the country's holiday lets could now be forced to close. WTA chair Suzy Davies said genuine holiday businesses will be caught up in a policy designed to clamp down on second homes. “Like dolphins accidentally caught in fishing nets, these businesses will die,” she cautioned.
On Tuesday, finance minister Rebecca Evans issued a written statement confirming Cardiff was pushing ahead with its plans despite opposition from the tourism sector. As with the Welsh Government’s new council tax policies, the approach is designed to tackle the housing crisis in Welsh-speaking communities in holiday hotspots.
The minister acknowledged that the stronger criteria “may be challenging for some operators to meet”. But she said: “The purpose of the change is to help ensure property owners are making a fair contribution to local communities, for example by increasing their contribution to the local economy through greater letting activity, or by paying council tax on their properties.”
To continue paying business rates, holiday rentals must be let for 182 days from April 1, 2023. Currently, the threshold is just 70 days. If holidays fail to meet the threshold, they pay council tax instead - and from April 2023 local counties will have the power to charge a council tax premium of up to 300%, effectively quadrupling bills.
Sorry, this looks like great news. Why should properties that are empty for 294 days a year get a tax break? Let people live there instead of keeping them empty for occasional holidaymakers. Good work Welsh Labour.
You clearly do not understand just how toxic this is for Welsh labour here in the heart of the North Wales holiday industry which is about to have a tourist tax put on them from Drakeford as well
Maybe I just care about affordable housing more. Your empty-house policy leaves me as cold as a homeless person.
Destroying the holiday industry losing thousands of jobs in businesses across North Wales is madness and could only be dreamt up by a Corbynista who just does not understand the local economy and simply does not care
And scroll on a page, you'll see that North Wales's figures are actually the strongest in Wales, averaging at 64%.
Even if a number of providers decide to drop out of the market, all that will do is increase the occupancy in competitors.
No, sorry, it seems you've been taken in by a scare story. The numbers don't fit at all with the apocalyptic predictions. Welsh Labour derangement syndrome, as Leon would probably call it.
This combined with the tourist tax will hit the holiday industry and believe you me it features all the time in the local media and Welsh news as various businesses forecast a fall in visitor numbers and a loss of holiday accommodation
No, sorry, I don't believe you me.
Apart from anything you're pretending the tourist industry is solely based around the kind of self-catering accommodation being referred to. Hotels, camping & caravans are a big part of the tourist industry, and non self-catering accommodation drives people to restaurants instead of supermarkets for their evening meal. No, the more I think about this the more I think this is a good move. Prune out the holiday lets that are underoccupied and they become either better-run lets, or housing for actual people.
You are missing the point that all these businesses you quote are about to be hit with a tourist tax on top of this
If this had been proposed for Devon and Cornwall or the Lake district you would have had a torrent of anger from the holiday industry
And by the way I do not lie
Tim Farron is running for re-election on the very question of holiday lets. They aren't greatly popular in the Lakes with the locals who tend to rather priorities having somewhere to live.
Yes but they bring in the income that no doubt supports many of their jobs
There is a balance to be struck but applying a tourist tax and reducing holiday accommodation is not one of them
They don't bring in any income if they are empty. And reducing holiday accommodation is smack bang what Farron thinks will keep him his seat. He probably knows better than me what the locals think.
Another way in which the article is silly is that this could encourage prices DOWN. Think about it. You can offer discounts on midweek off-season stays if the guest is staying the weekend. That might encourage some people to stay an extra day or two. That brings in more money, it doesn't increase the costs associated with booking, checking in and out, or other flat rates. The local economy gets a boost and the guests get more holiday without it breaking the bank. Everyone's a winner, except people who prefer to moan at the Welsh government for partisan reasons.
North Wales is depopulating.
The growth of holiday accommodation/second homes is caused by economic policy.
If there are no jobs, then there is rural depopulation. The consequent growth in holiday accommodation is caused by the depopulation -- not the other way round. There are empty houses that can be bought cheaply and turned into holiday lets. If they were not holiday lets, they'd fall into disrepair.
There are plenty of falling down, sad, derelict houses in almost all areas of North Wales. People used to live in those houses. They don't now because of depopulation.
As for your ideas in holiday lets in Wales in the winter -- they are bonkers.
Most tourist attractions in North Wales are shut in low season. Most restaurants are shut then (or have very limited hours).
No one is going to go and spend a few extra days in the middle of winter at Talsarnau, when there is nothing to do, nothing is open and the weather is wet, just because of Drakeford's idiotic policy.
I don't think Drakeford's plan makes much sense, apart from in some of the coastal resorts where second homes are a real problem (e.g. Aberdyfi, Tenby, Abersoch, Gwyr). In the rest of the country @Big_G_NorthWales is right -- they will destroy businesses and value.
Except occupancy rates are already above the thresholds that will be affected by this! This isn't a policy that will affect the average let. It's the ones that are taking up space and not generating income. An empty guest house doesn't do anything for the local economy.
As for "tourist attractions" being shut in the winter, that really depends. Museums and galleries are often open outside high season. Natural spaces like Snowdonia, Holy Island, Alyn Waters are open all year round.
I actually live in a formally very prosperous town in North Wales.
There are many houses that are just empty. I can go to my window and look out and count them. They are not second homes, they are just properties that are not let and no-one wants to live in.
I actually live in North Wales in the winter. I know the restaurants are usually shut completely in Jan & Feb, and they have restricted opening hours Oct-Mar
Museum and galleries in North Wales are almost always shut in the low season, apart from a few large attractions like Caernarfon Castle. Many CADW properties are shut in the winter.
Jesus .. you are behaving like HYUFD.
You live in Aberdeenshire, you are quoting guff from Welsh Government websites .. and everyone who knows North Wales is telling you that you are talking garbage.
If you told me something about Aberdeenshire, I'd believe you .. rather than going to google and quoting a government statistic back at you.
You're making out like North Wales tourism is a rare orchid that flowers for nine minutes per year. I guess the 600,000 annual visitors to Snowdon are all up on the summit in one mad stampede?
Try going on the Snowdon Mountain Railway site:
"Diesel departures leave Llanberis Station daily (weather conditions permitting) from the 14th April until the end of October every 30 minutes from 9am, subject to passenger demand.
Steam departures run from the 3rd June until the 11th September three times a day from 10:30am (weather conditions permitting)."
I don't suppose it will convince you -- because, from your roosting spot in Aberdeenshire, you clearly know more about North Wales than the actual residents, or the people running tourist attractions like Snowdon Mountain Railway.
Snowdon is a lot more than just the railway, and it's foolish to pretend the railway is the only thing people go for. I've been three times, and I still haven't been on the steam train. Do things wind down in the off season? Yes, I never said they didn't. Are there still people interested in visiting North Wales out of season? Definitely. I know because one of my trips was in the dead of winter. I wasn't alone!
Drakeford's destroying North Wales holiday industry from Cardiff
Tourism leaders in Wales have reacted with horror to confirmation of new occupancy rules for second homes and holiday lets. From April 1, 2023, the Welsh Government will insist that self-catering properties are let for at least 182 days each year in a move critics say will “decimate” the Welsh tourism industry.
Holiday lettings firm Finest Retreats, which promotes 29 holiday cottages in Wales, warned the challenging occupancy target will hit rural economies the hardest by driving up prices and making the country a “less attractive place to visit”. Tom Giffard, Welsh Conservative shadow tourism minister said it was a “devastating blow”, adding: “These new letting requirements will frankly be impossible for many self-caterers to meet.”
The Wales Tourism Alliance (WTA), which represents 6,000 tourism operators in Wales, believes 84% of the country's holiday lets could now be forced to close. WTA chair Suzy Davies said genuine holiday businesses will be caught up in a policy designed to clamp down on second homes. “Like dolphins accidentally caught in fishing nets, these businesses will die,” she cautioned.
On Tuesday, finance minister Rebecca Evans issued a written statement confirming Cardiff was pushing ahead with its plans despite opposition from the tourism sector. As with the Welsh Government’s new council tax policies, the approach is designed to tackle the housing crisis in Welsh-speaking communities in holiday hotspots.
The minister acknowledged that the stronger criteria “may be challenging for some operators to meet”. But she said: “The purpose of the change is to help ensure property owners are making a fair contribution to local communities, for example by increasing their contribution to the local economy through greater letting activity, or by paying council tax on their properties.”
To continue paying business rates, holiday rentals must be let for 182 days from April 1, 2023. Currently, the threshold is just 70 days. If holidays fail to meet the threshold, they pay council tax instead - and from April 2023 local counties will have the power to charge a council tax premium of up to 300%, effectively quadrupling bills.
Sorry, this looks like great news. Why should properties that are empty for 294 days a year get a tax break? Let people live there instead of keeping them empty for occasional holidaymakers. Good work Welsh Labour.
You clearly do not understand just how toxic this is for Welsh labour here in the heart of the North Wales holiday industry which is about to have a tourist tax put on them from Drakeford as well
Maybe I just care about affordable housing more. Your empty-house policy leaves me as cold as a homeless person.
Destroying the holiday industry losing thousands of jobs in businesses across North Wales is madness and could only be dreamt up by a Corbynista who just does not understand the local economy and simply does not care
And scroll on a page, you'll see that North Wales's figures are actually the strongest in Wales, averaging at 64%.
Even if a number of providers decide to drop out of the market, all that will do is increase the occupancy in competitors.
No, sorry, it seems you've been taken in by a scare story. The numbers don't fit at all with the apocalyptic predictions. Welsh Labour derangement syndrome, as Leon would probably call it.
This combined with the tourist tax will hit the holiday industry and believe you me it features all the time in the local media and Welsh news as various businesses forecast a fall in visitor numbers and a loss of holiday accommodation
No, sorry, I don't believe you me.
Apart from anything you're pretending the tourist industry is solely based around the kind of self-catering accommodation being referred to. Hotels, camping & caravans are a big part of the tourist industry, and non self-catering accommodation drives people to restaurants instead of supermarkets for their evening meal. No, the more I think about this the more I think this is a good move. Prune out the holiday lets that are underoccupied and they become either better-run lets, or housing for actual people.
You are missing the point that all these businesses you quote are about to be hit with a tourist tax on top of this
If this had been proposed for Devon and Cornwall or the Lake district you would have had a torrent of anger from the holiday industry
And by the way I do not lie
Tim Farron is running for re-election on the very question of holiday lets. They aren't greatly popular in the Lakes with the locals who tend to rather priorities having somewhere to live.
Yes but they bring in the income that no doubt supports many of their jobs
There is a balance to be struck but applying a tourist tax and reducing holiday accommodation is not one of them
They don't bring in any income if they are empty. And reducing holiday accommodation is smack bang what Farron thinks will keep him his seat. He probably knows better than me what the locals think.
Another way in which the article is silly is that this could encourage prices DOWN. Think about it. You can offer discounts on midweek off-season stays if the guest is staying the weekend. That might encourage some people to stay an extra day or two. That brings in more money, it doesn't increase the costs associated with booking, checking in and out, or other flat rates. The local economy gets a boost and the guests get more holiday without it breaking the bank. Everyone's a winner, except people who prefer to moan at the Welsh government for partisan reasons.
North Wales is depopulating.
The growth of holiday accommodation/second homes is caused by economic policy.
If there are no jobs, then there is rural depopulation. The consequent growth in holiday accommodation is caused by the depopulation -- not the other way round. There are empty houses that can be bought cheaply and turned into holiday lets. If they were not holiday lets, they'd fall into disrepair.
There are plenty of falling down, sad, derelict houses in almost all areas of North Wales. People used to live in those houses. They don't now because of depopulation.
As for your ideas in holiday lets in Wales in the winter -- they are bonkers.
Most tourist attractions in North Wales are shut in low season. Most restaurants are shut then (or have very limited hours).
No one is going to go and spend a few extra days in the middle of winter at Talsarnau, when there is nothing to do, nothing is open and the weather is wet, just because of Drakeford's idiotic policy.
I don't think Drakeford's plan makes much sense, apart from in some of the coastal resorts where second homes are a real problem (e.g. Aberdyfi, Tenby, Abersoch, Gwyr). In the rest of the country @Big_G_NorthWales is right -- they will destroy businesses and value.
Except occupancy rates are already above the thresholds that will be affected by this! This isn't a policy that will affect the average let. It's the ones that are taking up space and not generating income. An empty guest house doesn't do anything for the local economy.
As for "tourist attractions" being shut in the winter, that really depends. Museums and galleries are often open outside high season. Natural spaces like Snowdonia, Holy Island, Alyn Waters are open all year round.
I actually live in a formally very prosperous town in North Wales.
There are many houses that are just empty. I can go to my window and look out and count them. They are not second homes, they are just properties that are not let and no-one wants to live in.
I actually live in North Wales in the winter. I know the restaurants are usually shut completely in Jan & Feb, and they have restricted opening hours Oct-Mar
Museum and galleries in North Wales are almost always shut in the low season, apart from a few large attractions like Caernarfon Castle. Many CADW properties are shut in the winter.
Jesus .. you are behaving like HYUFD.
You live in Aberdeenshire, you are quoting guff from Welsh Government websites .. and everyone who knows North Wales is telling you that you are talking garbage.
If you told me something about Aberdeenshire, I'd believe you .. rather than going to google and quoting a government statistic back at you.
You're making out like North Wales tourism is a rare orchid that flowers for nine minutes per year. I guess the 600,000 annual visitors to Snowdon are all up on the summit in one mad stampede?
Try going on the Snowdon Mountain Railway site:
"Diesel departures leave Llanberis Station daily (weather conditions permitting) from the 14th April until the end of October every 30 minutes from 9am, subject to passenger demand.
Steam departures run from the 3rd June until the 11th September three times a day from 10:30am (weather conditions permitting)."
I don't suppose it will convince you -- because, from your roosting spot in Aberdeenshire, you clearly know more about North Wales than the actual residents, or the people running tourist attractions like Snowdon Mountain Railway.
Snowdon is a lot more than just the railway, and it's foolish to pretend the railway is the only thing people go for. I've been three times, and I still haven't been on the steam train. Do things wind down in the off season? Yes, I never said they didn't. Are there still people interested in visiting North Wales out of season? Definitely. I know because one of my trips was in the dead of winter. I wasn't alone!
The point is that out of season tourism is greatly reduced and the time North Wales reawakens to tourists is from Easter to October
Drakeford's destroying North Wales holiday industry from Cardiff
Tourism leaders in Wales have reacted with horror to confirmation of new occupancy rules for second homes and holiday lets. From April 1, 2023, the Welsh Government will insist that self-catering properties are let for at least 182 days each year in a move critics say will “decimate” the Welsh tourism industry.
Holiday lettings firm Finest Retreats, which promotes 29 holiday cottages in Wales, warned the challenging occupancy target will hit rural economies the hardest by driving up prices and making the country a “less attractive place to visit”. Tom Giffard, Welsh Conservative shadow tourism minister said it was a “devastating blow”, adding: “These new letting requirements will frankly be impossible for many self-caterers to meet.”
The Wales Tourism Alliance (WTA), which represents 6,000 tourism operators in Wales, believes 84% of the country's holiday lets could now be forced to close. WTA chair Suzy Davies said genuine holiday businesses will be caught up in a policy designed to clamp down on second homes. “Like dolphins accidentally caught in fishing nets, these businesses will die,” she cautioned.
On Tuesday, finance minister Rebecca Evans issued a written statement confirming Cardiff was pushing ahead with its plans despite opposition from the tourism sector. As with the Welsh Government’s new council tax policies, the approach is designed to tackle the housing crisis in Welsh-speaking communities in holiday hotspots.
The minister acknowledged that the stronger criteria “may be challenging for some operators to meet”. But she said: “The purpose of the change is to help ensure property owners are making a fair contribution to local communities, for example by increasing their contribution to the local economy through greater letting activity, or by paying council tax on their properties.”
To continue paying business rates, holiday rentals must be let for 182 days from April 1, 2023. Currently, the threshold is just 70 days. If holidays fail to meet the threshold, they pay council tax instead - and from April 2023 local counties will have the power to charge a council tax premium of up to 300%, effectively quadrupling bills.
Sorry, this looks like great news. Why should properties that are empty for 294 days a year get a tax break? Let people live there instead of keeping them empty for occasional holidaymakers. Good work Welsh Labour.
You clearly do not understand just how toxic this is for Welsh labour here in the heart of the North Wales holiday industry which is about to have a tourist tax put on them from Drakeford as well
Maybe I just care about affordable housing more. Your empty-house policy leaves me as cold as a homeless person.
Destroying the holiday industry losing thousands of jobs in businesses across North Wales is madness and could only be dreamt up by a Corbynista who just does not understand the local economy and simply does not care
And scroll on a page, you'll see that North Wales's figures are actually the strongest in Wales, averaging at 64%.
Even if a number of providers decide to drop out of the market, all that will do is increase the occupancy in competitors.
No, sorry, it seems you've been taken in by a scare story. The numbers don't fit at all with the apocalyptic predictions. Welsh Labour derangement syndrome, as Leon would probably call it.
This combined with the tourist tax will hit the holiday industry and believe you me it features all the time in the local media and Welsh news as various businesses forecast a fall in visitor numbers and a loss of holiday accommodation
No, sorry, I don't believe you me.
Apart from anything you're pretending the tourist industry is solely based around the kind of self-catering accommodation being referred to. Hotels, camping & caravans are a big part of the tourist industry, and non self-catering accommodation drives people to restaurants instead of supermarkets for their evening meal. No, the more I think about this the more I think this is a good move. Prune out the holiday lets that are underoccupied and they become either better-run lets, or housing for actual people.
You are missing the point that all these businesses you quote are about to be hit with a tourist tax on top of this
If this had been proposed for Devon and Cornwall or the Lake district you would have had a torrent of anger from the holiday industry
And by the way I do not lie
Tim Farron is running for re-election on the very question of holiday lets. They aren't greatly popular in the Lakes with the locals who tend to rather priorities having somewhere to live.
Yes but they bring in the income that no doubt supports many of their jobs
There is a balance to be struck but applying a tourist tax and reducing holiday accommodation is not one of them
They don't bring in any income if they are empty. And reducing holiday accommodation is smack bang what Farron thinks will keep him his seat. He probably knows better than me what the locals think.
Another way in which the article is silly is that this could encourage prices DOWN. Think about it. You can offer discounts on midweek off-season stays if the guest is staying the weekend. That might encourage some people to stay an extra day or two. That brings in more money, it doesn't increase the costs associated with booking, checking in and out, or other flat rates. The local economy gets a boost and the guests get more holiday without it breaking the bank. Everyone's a winner, except people who prefer to moan at the Welsh government for partisan reasons.
North Wales is depopulating.
The growth of holiday accommodation/second homes is caused by economic policy.
If there are no jobs, then there is rural depopulation. The consequent growth in holiday accommodation is caused by the depopulation -- not the other way round. There are empty houses that can be bought cheaply and turned into holiday lets. If they were not holiday lets, they'd fall into disrepair.
There are plenty of falling down, sad, derelict houses in almost all areas of North Wales. People used to live in those houses. They don't now because of depopulation.
As for your ideas in holiday lets in Wales in the winter -- they are bonkers.
Most tourist attractions in North Wales are shut in low season. Most restaurants are shut then (or have very limited hours).
No one is going to go and spend a few extra days in the middle of winter at Talsarnau, when there is nothing to do, nothing is open and the weather is wet, just because of Drakeford's idiotic policy.
I don't think Drakeford's plan makes much sense, apart from in some of the coastal resorts where second homes are a real problem (e.g. Aberdyfi, Tenby, Abersoch, Gwyr). In the rest of the country @Big_G_NorthWales is right -- they will destroy businesses and value.
Except occupancy rates are already above the thresholds that will be affected by this! This isn't a policy that will affect the average let. It's the ones that are taking up space and not generating income. An empty guest house doesn't do anything for the local economy.
As for "tourist attractions" being shut in the winter, that really depends. Museums and galleries are often open outside high season. Natural spaces like Snowdonia, Holy Island, Alyn Waters are open all year round.
I actually live in a formally very prosperous town in North Wales.
There are many houses that are just empty. I can go to my window and look out and count them. They are not second homes, they are just properties that are not let and no-one wants to live in.
I actually live in North Wales in the winter. I know the restaurants are usually shut completely in Jan & Feb, and they have restricted opening hours Oct-Mar
Museum and galleries in North Wales are almost always shut in the low season, apart from a few large attractions like Caernarfon Castle. Many CADW properties are shut in the winter.
Jesus .. you are behaving like HYUFD.
You live in Aberdeenshire, you are quoting guff from Welsh Government websites .. and everyone who knows North Wales is telling you that you are talking garbage.
If you told me something about Aberdeenshire, I'd believe you .. rather than going to google and quoting a government statistic back at you.
You're making out like North Wales tourism is a rare orchid that flowers for nine minutes per year. I guess the 600,000 annual visitors to Snowdon are all up on the summit in one mad stampede?
Try going on the Snowdon Mountain Railway site:
"Diesel departures leave Llanberis Station daily (weather conditions permitting) from the 14th April until the end of October every 30 minutes from 9am, subject to passenger demand.
Steam departures run from the 3rd June until the 11th September three times a day from 10:30am (weather conditions permitting)."
I don't suppose it will convince you -- because, from your roosting spot in Aberdeenshire, you clearly know more about North Wales than the actual residents, or the people running tourist attractions like Snowdon Mountain Railway.
It is pointless arguing with someone who has the @HYUFD attitude that he is right no matter others who are in touch with the issues daily
And he has not addressed the tourist tax which is an idiotic tax
G, I don't give a fk about the tourist tax either way. I haven't commented on it, I haven't thought about it. I'm not going to form an opinion on it just because you want me to. It might be a terrible idea, it might be a wonderful idea. Probably it's somewhere in between, idk. I have limited myself to talking about the ending of the tax break on "empty" holiday homes and a rather strange proxy argument over whether North Wales turns into North Korea as soon as the clocks go back. If you want to find someone who cares about tourist tax either way, I'm sure you'll find someone, but it's not me.
Drakeford's destroying North Wales holiday industry from Cardiff
Tourism leaders in Wales have reacted with horror to confirmation of new occupancy rules for second homes and holiday lets. From April 1, 2023, the Welsh Government will insist that self-catering properties are let for at least 182 days each year in a move critics say will “decimate” the Welsh tourism industry.
Holiday lettings firm Finest Retreats, which promotes 29 holiday cottages in Wales, warned the challenging occupancy target will hit rural economies the hardest by driving up prices and making the country a “less attractive place to visit”. Tom Giffard, Welsh Conservative shadow tourism minister said it was a “devastating blow”, adding: “These new letting requirements will frankly be impossible for many self-caterers to meet.”
The Wales Tourism Alliance (WTA), which represents 6,000 tourism operators in Wales, believes 84% of the country's holiday lets could now be forced to close. WTA chair Suzy Davies said genuine holiday businesses will be caught up in a policy designed to clamp down on second homes. “Like dolphins accidentally caught in fishing nets, these businesses will die,” she cautioned.
On Tuesday, finance minister Rebecca Evans issued a written statement confirming Cardiff was pushing ahead with its plans despite opposition from the tourism sector. As with the Welsh Government’s new council tax policies, the approach is designed to tackle the housing crisis in Welsh-speaking communities in holiday hotspots.
The minister acknowledged that the stronger criteria “may be challenging for some operators to meet”. But she said: “The purpose of the change is to help ensure property owners are making a fair contribution to local communities, for example by increasing their contribution to the local economy through greater letting activity, or by paying council tax on their properties.”
To continue paying business rates, holiday rentals must be let for 182 days from April 1, 2023. Currently, the threshold is just 70 days. If holidays fail to meet the threshold, they pay council tax instead - and from April 2023 local counties will have the power to charge a council tax premium of up to 300%, effectively quadrupling bills.
Sorry, this looks like great news. Why should properties that are empty for 294 days a year get a tax break? Let people live there instead of keeping them empty for occasional holidaymakers. Good work Welsh Labour.
You clearly do not understand just how toxic this is for Welsh labour here in the heart of the North Wales holiday industry which is about to have a tourist tax put on them from Drakeford as well
Maybe I just care about affordable housing more. Your empty-house policy leaves me as cold as a homeless person.
Destroying the holiday industry losing thousands of jobs in businesses across North Wales is madness and could only be dreamt up by a Corbynista who just does not understand the local economy and simply does not care
And scroll on a page, you'll see that North Wales's figures are actually the strongest in Wales, averaging at 64%.
Even if a number of providers decide to drop out of the market, all that will do is increase the occupancy in competitors.
No, sorry, it seems you've been taken in by a scare story. The numbers don't fit at all with the apocalyptic predictions. Welsh Labour derangement syndrome, as Leon would probably call it.
This combined with the tourist tax will hit the holiday industry and believe you me it features all the time in the local media and Welsh news as various businesses forecast a fall in visitor numbers and a loss of holiday accommodation
No, sorry, I don't believe you me.
Apart from anything you're pretending the tourist industry is solely based around the kind of self-catering accommodation being referred to. Hotels, camping & caravans are a big part of the tourist industry, and non self-catering accommodation drives people to restaurants instead of supermarkets for their evening meal. No, the more I think about this the more I think this is a good move. Prune out the holiday lets that are underoccupied and they become either better-run lets, or housing for actual people.
You are missing the point that all these businesses you quote are about to be hit with a tourist tax on top of this
If this had been proposed for Devon and Cornwall or the Lake district you would have had a torrent of anger from the holiday industry
And by the way I do not lie
Tim Farron is running for re-election on the very question of holiday lets. They aren't greatly popular in the Lakes with the locals who tend to rather priorities having somewhere to live.
Yes but they bring in the income that no doubt supports many of their jobs
There is a balance to be struck but applying a tourist tax and reducing holiday accommodation is not one of them
They don't bring in any income if they are empty. And reducing holiday accommodation is smack bang what Farron thinks will keep him his seat. He probably knows better than me what the locals think.
Another way in which the article is silly is that this could encourage prices DOWN. Think about it. You can offer discounts on midweek off-season stays if the guest is staying the weekend. That might encourage some people to stay an extra day or two. That brings in more money, it doesn't increase the costs associated with booking, checking in and out, or other flat rates. The local economy gets a boost and the guests get more holiday without it breaking the bank. Everyone's a winner, except people who prefer to moan at the Welsh government for partisan reasons.
North Wales is depopulating.
The growth of holiday accommodation/second homes is caused by economic policy.
If there are no jobs, then there is rural depopulation. The consequent growth in holiday accommodation is caused by the depopulation -- not the other way round. There are empty houses that can be bought cheaply and turned into holiday lets. If they were not holiday lets, they'd fall into disrepair.
There are plenty of falling down, sad, derelict houses in almost all areas of North Wales. People used to live in those houses. They don't now because of depopulation.
As for your ideas in holiday lets in Wales in the winter -- they are bonkers.
Most tourist attractions in North Wales are shut in low season. Most restaurants are shut then (or have very limited hours).
No one is going to go and spend a few extra days in the middle of winter at Talsarnau, when there is nothing to do, nothing is open and the weather is wet, just because of Drakeford's idiotic policy.
I don't think Drakeford's plan makes much sense, apart from in some of the coastal resorts where second homes are a real problem (e.g. Aberdyfi, Tenby, Abersoch, Gwyr). In the rest of the country @Big_G_NorthWales is right -- they will destroy businesses and value.
Except occupancy rates are already above the thresholds that will be affected by this! This isn't a policy that will affect the average let. It's the ones that are taking up space and not generating income. An empty guest house doesn't do anything for the local economy.
As for "tourist attractions" being shut in the winter, that really depends. Museums and galleries are often open outside high season. Natural spaces like Snowdonia, Holy Island, Alyn Waters are open all year round.
I actually live in a formally very prosperous town in North Wales.
There are many houses that are just empty. I can go to my window and look out and count them. They are not second homes, they are just properties that are not let and no-one wants to live in.
I actually live in North Wales in the winter. I know the restaurants are usually shut completely in Jan & Feb, and they have restricted opening hours Oct-Mar
Museum and galleries in North Wales are almost always shut in the low season, apart from a few large attractions like Caernarfon Castle. Many CADW properties are shut in the winter.
Jesus .. you are behaving like HYUFD.
You live in Aberdeenshire, you are quoting guff from Welsh Government websites .. and everyone who knows North Wales is telling you that you are talking garbage.
If you told me something about Aberdeenshire, I'd believe you .. rather than going to google and quoting a government statistic back at you.
You're making out like North Wales tourism is a rare orchid that flowers for nine minutes per year. I guess the 600,000 annual visitors to Snowdon are all up on the summit in one mad stampede?
Try going on the Snowdon Mountain Railway site:
"Diesel departures leave Llanberis Station daily (weather conditions permitting) from the 14th April until the end of October every 30 minutes from 9am, subject to passenger demand.
Steam departures run from the 3rd June until the 11th September three times a day from 10:30am (weather conditions permitting)."
I don't suppose it will convince you -- because, from your roosting spot in Aberdeenshire, you clearly know more about North Wales than the actual residents, or the people running tourist attractions like Snowdon Mountain Railway.
Snowdon is a lot more than just the railway, and it's foolish to pretend the railway is the only thing people go for. I've been three times, and I still haven't been on the steam train. Do things wind down in the off season? Yes, I never said they didn't. Are there still people interested in visiting North Wales out of season? Definitely. I know because one of my trips was in the dead of winter. I wasn't alone!
Drakeford's destroying North Wales holiday industry from Cardiff
Tourism leaders in Wales have reacted with horror to confirmation of new occupancy rules for second homes and holiday lets. From April 1, 2023, the Welsh Government will insist that self-catering properties are let for at least 182 days each year in a move critics say will “decimate” the Welsh tourism industry.
Holiday lettings firm Finest Retreats, which promotes 29 holiday cottages in Wales, warned the challenging occupancy target will hit rural economies the hardest by driving up prices and making the country a “less attractive place to visit”. Tom Giffard, Welsh Conservative shadow tourism minister said it was a “devastating blow”, adding: “These new letting requirements will frankly be impossible for many self-caterers to meet.”
The Wales Tourism Alliance (WTA), which represents 6,000 tourism operators in Wales, believes 84% of the country's holiday lets could now be forced to close. WTA chair Suzy Davies said genuine holiday businesses will be caught up in a policy designed to clamp down on second homes. “Like dolphins accidentally caught in fishing nets, these businesses will die,” she cautioned.
On Tuesday, finance minister Rebecca Evans issued a written statement confirming Cardiff was pushing ahead with its plans despite opposition from the tourism sector. As with the Welsh Government’s new council tax policies, the approach is designed to tackle the housing crisis in Welsh-speaking communities in holiday hotspots.
The minister acknowledged that the stronger criteria “may be challenging for some operators to meet”. But she said: “The purpose of the change is to help ensure property owners are making a fair contribution to local communities, for example by increasing their contribution to the local economy through greater letting activity, or by paying council tax on their properties.”
To continue paying business rates, holiday rentals must be let for 182 days from April 1, 2023. Currently, the threshold is just 70 days. If holidays fail to meet the threshold, they pay council tax instead - and from April 2023 local counties will have the power to charge a council tax premium of up to 300%, effectively quadrupling bills.
Sorry, this looks like great news. Why should properties that are empty for 294 days a year get a tax break? Let people live there instead of keeping them empty for occasional holidaymakers. Good work Welsh Labour.
You clearly do not understand just how toxic this is for Welsh labour here in the heart of the North Wales holiday industry which is about to have a tourist tax put on them from Drakeford as well
Maybe I just care about affordable housing more. Your empty-house policy leaves me as cold as a homeless person.
Destroying the holiday industry losing thousands of jobs in businesses across North Wales is madness and could only be dreamt up by a Corbynista who just does not understand the local economy and simply does not care
And scroll on a page, you'll see that North Wales's figures are actually the strongest in Wales, averaging at 64%.
Even if a number of providers decide to drop out of the market, all that will do is increase the occupancy in competitors.
No, sorry, it seems you've been taken in by a scare story. The numbers don't fit at all with the apocalyptic predictions. Welsh Labour derangement syndrome, as Leon would probably call it.
This combined with the tourist tax will hit the holiday industry and believe you me it features all the time in the local media and Welsh news as various businesses forecast a fall in visitor numbers and a loss of holiday accommodation
No, sorry, I don't believe you me.
Apart from anything you're pretending the tourist industry is solely based around the kind of self-catering accommodation being referred to. Hotels, camping & caravans are a big part of the tourist industry, and non self-catering accommodation drives people to restaurants instead of supermarkets for their evening meal. No, the more I think about this the more I think this is a good move. Prune out the holiday lets that are underoccupied and they become either better-run lets, or housing for actual people.
You are missing the point that all these businesses you quote are about to be hit with a tourist tax on top of this
If this had been proposed for Devon and Cornwall or the Lake district you would have had a torrent of anger from the holiday industry
And by the way I do not lie
Tim Farron is running for re-election on the very question of holiday lets. They aren't greatly popular in the Lakes with the locals who tend to rather priorities having somewhere to live.
Yes but they bring in the income that no doubt supports many of their jobs
There is a balance to be struck but applying a tourist tax and reducing holiday accommodation is not one of them
They don't bring in any income if they are empty. And reducing holiday accommodation is smack bang what Farron thinks will keep him his seat. He probably knows better than me what the locals think.
Another way in which the article is silly is that this could encourage prices DOWN. Think about it. You can offer discounts on midweek off-season stays if the guest is staying the weekend. That might encourage some people to stay an extra day or two. That brings in more money, it doesn't increase the costs associated with booking, checking in and out, or other flat rates. The local economy gets a boost and the guests get more holiday without it breaking the bank. Everyone's a winner, except people who prefer to moan at the Welsh government for partisan reasons.
North Wales is depopulating.
The growth of holiday accommodation/second homes is caused by economic policy.
If there are no jobs, then there is rural depopulation. The consequent growth in holiday accommodation is caused by the depopulation -- not the other way round. There are empty houses that can be bought cheaply and turned into holiday lets. If they were not holiday lets, they'd fall into disrepair.
There are plenty of falling down, sad, derelict houses in almost all areas of North Wales. People used to live in those houses. They don't now because of depopulation.
As for your ideas in holiday lets in Wales in the winter -- they are bonkers.
Most tourist attractions in North Wales are shut in low season. Most restaurants are shut then (or have very limited hours).
No one is going to go and spend a few extra days in the middle of winter at Talsarnau, when there is nothing to do, nothing is open and the weather is wet, just because of Drakeford's idiotic policy.
I don't think Drakeford's plan makes much sense, apart from in some of the coastal resorts where second homes are a real problem (e.g. Aberdyfi, Tenby, Abersoch, Gwyr). In the rest of the country @Big_G_NorthWales is right -- they will destroy businesses and value.
Except occupancy rates are already above the thresholds that will be affected by this! This isn't a policy that will affect the average let. It's the ones that are taking up space and not generating income. An empty guest house doesn't do anything for the local economy.
As for "tourist attractions" being shut in the winter, that really depends. Museums and galleries are often open outside high season. Natural spaces like Snowdonia, Holy Island, Alyn Waters are open all year round.
I actually live in a formally very prosperous town in North Wales.
There are many houses that are just empty. I can go to my window and look out and count them. They are not second homes, they are just properties that are not let and no-one wants to live in.
I actually live in North Wales in the winter. I know the restaurants are usually shut completely in Jan & Feb, and they have restricted opening hours Oct-Mar
Museum and galleries in North Wales are almost always shut in the low season, apart from a few large attractions like Caernarfon Castle. Many CADW properties are shut in the winter.
Jesus .. you are behaving like HYUFD.
You live in Aberdeenshire, you are quoting guff from Welsh Government websites .. and everyone who knows North Wales is telling you that you are talking garbage.
If you told me something about Aberdeenshire, I'd believe you .. rather than going to google and quoting a government statistic back at you.
You're making out like North Wales tourism is a rare orchid that flowers for nine minutes per year. I guess the 600,000 annual visitors to Snowdon are all up on the summit in one mad stampede?
Try going on the Snowdon Mountain Railway site:
"Diesel departures leave Llanberis Station daily (weather conditions permitting) from the 14th April until the end of October every 30 minutes from 9am, subject to passenger demand.
Steam departures run from the 3rd June until the 11th September three times a day from 10:30am (weather conditions permitting)."
I don't suppose it will convince you -- because, from your roosting spot in Aberdeenshire, you clearly know more about North Wales than the actual residents, or the people running tourist attractions like Snowdon Mountain Railway.
It is pointless arguing with someone who has the @HYUFD attitude that he is right no matter others who are in touch with the issues daily
And he has not addressed the tourist tax which is an idiotic tax
G, I don't give a fk about the tourist tax either way. I haven't commented on it, I haven't thought about it. I'm not going to form an opinion on it just because you want me to. It might be a terrible idea, it might be a wonderful idea. Probably it's somewhere in between, idk. I have limited myself to talking about the ending of the tax break on "empty" holiday homes and a rather strange proxy argument over whether North Wales turns into North Korea as soon as the clocks go back. If you want to find someone who cares about tourist tax either way, I'm sure you'll find someone, but it's not me.
Of course you do not care, it is not being applied to the Scottish tourist industry
You simply are unable to accept the changes including the tourist tax are a threat to the one industry North Wales has and that is tourism when Welsh posters are telling you you are wrong
“The Kremlin is considering a second assault on Kyiv despite failing to capture the Ukrainian capital at the outset of the war, according to the independent news website, Meduza.
Sources close to the Kremlin and inside the Putin administration said confidence has spread to the leadership of United Russia, the country’s ruling political party, that a full-scale victory in Ukraine is possible before the end of the year.
One source said:
We’ll grind them [the Ukrainians] down in the end. The whole thing will probably be over by the fall.
Russia’s leadership has “minimum” and “maximum” thresholds for declaring a successful and completed “special military operation” in Ukraine, sources said.
The bare minimum needed to declare victory is the complete capture of the Donbas region, according to sources, while the maximum goal would be the capture of Kyiv.
The editor of the English-language edition of Meduza, Kevin Rothrock, said the report suggests that Ukraine is losing the “information war” for the first time since the invasion.
Many ways to interpret this: (1) the mood inside the Kremlin shifts faster than a temperamental teen’s, (2) Kyiv’s alarm-signaling is largely about expediting/sustaining Western aid, (3) Western fatigue is real (the energy crisis & U.S. midterms mean a whole new ballgame soon)”
I reckon this means WW3
Most likely it will end up a prolonged war of attrition in the Donbas. It won't be WW3 unless Russia invades a NATO state
I agree. My impression (but what do I know?) is that Russia will get to the edge of Donbas in a month or two, but the flow of Western arms will then encourage the Ukrainians to counter-attack. I suspect we'll then see a war of attirition, as HYUFD says, and eventually there will be an uneasy cease-fire.
WW3? Nah.
I think it more probable that something will crack, probably the Russian war machine followed by the Russian state.
Essentially this chap is scraping the Oryx data and automatically creating charts from it. Somewhat as people used to do with the COVID data....
Anyway - Russia is still losing equipment at a very considerable rate. And if they can't get tank manufacturing up and running, then they only have what's in storage.....
Drakeford's destroying North Wales holiday industry from Cardiff
Tourism leaders in Wales have reacted with horror to confirmation of new occupancy rules for second homes and holiday lets. From April 1, 2023, the Welsh Government will insist that self-catering properties are let for at least 182 days each year in a move critics say will “decimate” the Welsh tourism industry.
Holiday lettings firm Finest Retreats, which promotes 29 holiday cottages in Wales, warned the challenging occupancy target will hit rural economies the hardest by driving up prices and making the country a “less attractive place to visit”. Tom Giffard, Welsh Conservative shadow tourism minister said it was a “devastating blow”, adding: “These new letting requirements will frankly be impossible for many self-caterers to meet.”
The Wales Tourism Alliance (WTA), which represents 6,000 tourism operators in Wales, believes 84% of the country's holiday lets could now be forced to close. WTA chair Suzy Davies said genuine holiday businesses will be caught up in a policy designed to clamp down on second homes. “Like dolphins accidentally caught in fishing nets, these businesses will die,” she cautioned.
On Tuesday, finance minister Rebecca Evans issued a written statement confirming Cardiff was pushing ahead with its plans despite opposition from the tourism sector. As with the Welsh Government’s new council tax policies, the approach is designed to tackle the housing crisis in Welsh-speaking communities in holiday hotspots.
The minister acknowledged that the stronger criteria “may be challenging for some operators to meet”. But she said: “The purpose of the change is to help ensure property owners are making a fair contribution to local communities, for example by increasing their contribution to the local economy through greater letting activity, or by paying council tax on their properties.”
To continue paying business rates, holiday rentals must be let for 182 days from April 1, 2023. Currently, the threshold is just 70 days. If holidays fail to meet the threshold, they pay council tax instead - and from April 2023 local counties will have the power to charge a council tax premium of up to 300%, effectively quadrupling bills.
Sorry, this looks like great news. Why should properties that are empty for 294 days a year get a tax break? Let people live there instead of keeping them empty for occasional holidaymakers. Good work Welsh Labour.
You clearly do not understand just how toxic this is for Welsh labour here in the heart of the North Wales holiday industry which is about to have a tourist tax put on them from Drakeford as well
Maybe I just care about affordable housing more. Your empty-house policy leaves me as cold as a homeless person.
Destroying the holiday industry losing thousands of jobs in businesses across North Wales is madness and could only be dreamt up by a Corbynista who just does not understand the local economy and simply does not care
And scroll on a page, you'll see that North Wales's figures are actually the strongest in Wales, averaging at 64%.
Even if a number of providers decide to drop out of the market, all that will do is increase the occupancy in competitors.
No, sorry, it seems you've been taken in by a scare story. The numbers don't fit at all with the apocalyptic predictions. Welsh Labour derangement syndrome, as Leon would probably call it.
This combined with the tourist tax will hit the holiday industry and believe you me it features all the time in the local media and Welsh news as various businesses forecast a fall in visitor numbers and a loss of holiday accommodation
No, sorry, I don't believe you me.
Apart from anything you're pretending the tourist industry is solely based around the kind of self-catering accommodation being referred to. Hotels, camping & caravans are a big part of the tourist industry, and non self-catering accommodation drives people to restaurants instead of supermarkets for their evening meal. No, the more I think about this the more I think this is a good move. Prune out the holiday lets that are underoccupied and they become either better-run lets, or housing for actual people.
You are missing the point that all these businesses you quote are about to be hit with a tourist tax on top of this
If this had been proposed for Devon and Cornwall or the Lake district you would have had a torrent of anger from the holiday industry
And by the way I do not lie
Tim Farron is running for re-election on the very question of holiday lets. They aren't greatly popular in the Lakes with the locals who tend to rather priorities having somewhere to live.
Yes but they bring in the income that no doubt supports many of their jobs
There is a balance to be struck but applying a tourist tax and reducing holiday accommodation is not one of them
They don't bring in any income if they are empty. And reducing holiday accommodation is smack bang what Farron thinks will keep him his seat. He probably knows better than me what the locals think.
Another way in which the article is silly is that this could encourage prices DOWN. Think about it. You can offer discounts on midweek off-season stays if the guest is staying the weekend. That might encourage some people to stay an extra day or two. That brings in more money, it doesn't increase the costs associated with booking, checking in and out, or other flat rates. The local economy gets a boost and the guests get more holiday without it breaking the bank. Everyone's a winner, except people who prefer to moan at the Welsh government for partisan reasons.
North Wales is depopulating.
The growth of holiday accommodation/second homes is caused by economic policy.
If there are no jobs, then there is rural depopulation. The consequent growth in holiday accommodation is caused by the depopulation -- not the other way round. There are empty houses that can be bought cheaply and turned into holiday lets. If they were not holiday lets, they'd fall into disrepair.
There are plenty of falling down, sad, derelict houses in almost all areas of North Wales. People used to live in those houses. They don't now because of depopulation.
As for your ideas in holiday lets in Wales in the winter -- they are bonkers.
Most tourist attractions in North Wales are shut in low season. Most restaurants are shut then (or have very limited hours).
No one is going to go and spend a few extra days in the middle of winter at Talsarnau, when there is nothing to do, nothing is open and the weather is wet, just because of Drakeford's idiotic policy.
I don't think Drakeford's plan makes much sense, apart from in some of the coastal resorts where second homes are a real problem (e.g. Aberdyfi, Tenby, Abersoch, Gwyr). In the rest of the country @Big_G_NorthWales is right -- they will destroy businesses and value.
Except occupancy rates are already above the thresholds that will be affected by this! This isn't a policy that will affect the average let. It's the ones that are taking up space and not generating income. An empty guest house doesn't do anything for the local economy.
As for "tourist attractions" being shut in the winter, that really depends. Museums and galleries are often open outside high season. Natural spaces like Snowdonia, Holy Island, Alyn Waters are open all year round.
I actually live in a formally very prosperous town in North Wales.
There are many houses that are just empty. I can go to my window and look out and count them. They are not second homes, they are just properties that are not let and no-one wants to live in.
I actually live in North Wales in the winter. I know the restaurants are usually shut completely in Jan & Feb, and they have restricted opening hours Oct-Mar
Museum and galleries in North Wales are almost always shut in the low season, apart from a few large attractions like Caernarfon Castle. Many CADW properties are shut in the winter.
Jesus .. you are behaving like HYUFD.
You live in Aberdeenshire, you are quoting guff from Welsh Government websites .. and everyone who knows North Wales is telling you that you are talking garbage.
If you told me something about Aberdeenshire, I'd believe you .. rather than going to google and quoting a government statistic back at you.
You're making out like North Wales tourism is a rare orchid that flowers for nine minutes per year. I guess the 600,000 annual visitors to Snowdon are all up on the summit in one mad stampede?
Try going on the Snowdon Mountain Railway site:
"Diesel departures leave Llanberis Station daily (weather conditions permitting) from the 14th April until the end of October every 30 minutes from 9am, subject to passenger demand.
Steam departures run from the 3rd June until the 11th September three times a day from 10:30am (weather conditions permitting)."
I don't suppose it will convince you -- because, from your roosting spot in Aberdeenshire, you clearly know more about North Wales than the actual residents, or the people running tourist attractions like Snowdon Mountain Railway.
Snowdon is a lot more than just the railway, and it's foolish to pretend the railway is the only thing people go for. I've been three times, and I still haven't been on the steam train. Do things wind down in the off season? Yes, I never said they didn't. Are there still people interested in visiting North Wales out of season? Definitely. I know because one of my trips was in the dead of winter. I wasn't alone!
The point is that out of season tourism is greatly reduced and the time North Wales reawakens to tourists is from Easter to October
Yes, there's never been any disagreement about that. All I said was there is some demand there, and it can probably be stimulated somewhat by tying extra days to weekend bookings if the guest houses want to boost occupancy rates, for which I set out arguments around the fixed costs not increasing the the benefit to the local economy of having people there longer. Some people would undoubtedly ignore that bargain, others would undoubtedly take you up on it.
This whole ridiculous charade about what's open in winter has been largely besides the point. People DO come for whatever reason (hey, sometimes people just want to get away for a few days and sit and read in a pub), and if a holiday let needs a few extra days to tip them up over 50% occupancy, it's hardly rocket science to offer a discount. This isn't about inventing demand where there is none, which is a much tougher proposition. It's simple upselling.
Unlike some European cities gentrification has passed it by. I love the edginess.
Hire a bike on a weekend and cycle around the city: wonderful.
Berlin is gentrifying: have you seen what rents are doing?
Still possibly the cheapest capital in Western Europe for the tourist, though.
Cheaper than Lisbon?
Lisbon is getting increasingly expensive, as they are attracting a lot of technology businesses. A friend of mine's tech company is moving their main development hub to Lisbon. (The fact that he will only pay 20% income tax for the next decade probably is a factor too!)
Unlike some European cities gentrification has passed it by. I love the edginess.
Hire a bike on a weekend and cycle around the city: wonderful.
Berlin is gentrifying: have you seen what rents are doing?
Still possibly the cheapest capital in Western Europe for the tourist, though.
Cheaper than Lisbon?
Lisbon is getting increasingly expensive, as they are attracting a lot of technology businesses. A friend of mine's tech company is moving their main development hub to Lisbon. (The fact that he will only pay 20% income tax for the next decade probably is a factor too!)
For a socialist government in Portugal, they do seem to be very keen on giving very attractive deals for rich foreigners looking to get a good deal on taxes and opportunities to get a passport.
Drakeford's destroying North Wales holiday industry from Cardiff
Tourism leaders in Wales have reacted with horror to confirmation of new occupancy rules for second homes and holiday lets. From April 1, 2023, the Welsh Government will insist that self-catering properties are let for at least 182 days each year in a move critics say will “decimate” the Welsh tourism industry.
Holiday lettings firm Finest Retreats, which promotes 29 holiday cottages in Wales, warned the challenging occupancy target will hit rural economies the hardest by driving up prices and making the country a “less attractive place to visit”. Tom Giffard, Welsh Conservative shadow tourism minister said it was a “devastating blow”, adding: “These new letting requirements will frankly be impossible for many self-caterers to meet.”
The Wales Tourism Alliance (WTA), which represents 6,000 tourism operators in Wales, believes 84% of the country's holiday lets could now be forced to close. WTA chair Suzy Davies said genuine holiday businesses will be caught up in a policy designed to clamp down on second homes. “Like dolphins accidentally caught in fishing nets, these businesses will die,” she cautioned.
On Tuesday, finance minister Rebecca Evans issued a written statement confirming Cardiff was pushing ahead with its plans despite opposition from the tourism sector. As with the Welsh Government’s new council tax policies, the approach is designed to tackle the housing crisis in Welsh-speaking communities in holiday hotspots.
The minister acknowledged that the stronger criteria “may be challenging for some operators to meet”. But she said: “The purpose of the change is to help ensure property owners are making a fair contribution to local communities, for example by increasing their contribution to the local economy through greater letting activity, or by paying council tax on their properties.”
To continue paying business rates, holiday rentals must be let for 182 days from April 1, 2023. Currently, the threshold is just 70 days. If holidays fail to meet the threshold, they pay council tax instead - and from April 2023 local counties will have the power to charge a council tax premium of up to 300%, effectively quadrupling bills.
Sorry, this looks like great news. Why should properties that are empty for 294 days a year get a tax break? Let people live there instead of keeping them empty for occasional holidaymakers. Good work Welsh Labour.
You clearly do not understand just how toxic this is for Welsh labour here in the heart of the North Wales holiday industry which is about to have a tourist tax put on them from Drakeford as well
Maybe I just care about affordable housing more. Your empty-house policy leaves me as cold as a homeless person.
Destroying the holiday industry losing thousands of jobs in businesses across North Wales is madness and could only be dreamt up by a Corbynista who just does not understand the local economy and simply does not care
And scroll on a page, you'll see that North Wales's figures are actually the strongest in Wales, averaging at 64%.
Even if a number of providers decide to drop out of the market, all that will do is increase the occupancy in competitors.
No, sorry, it seems you've been taken in by a scare story. The numbers don't fit at all with the apocalyptic predictions. Welsh Labour derangement syndrome, as Leon would probably call it.
This combined with the tourist tax will hit the holiday industry and believe you me it features all the time in the local media and Welsh news as various businesses forecast a fall in visitor numbers and a loss of holiday accommodation
No, sorry, I don't believe you me.
Apart from anything you're pretending the tourist industry is solely based around the kind of self-catering accommodation being referred to. Hotels, camping & caravans are a big part of the tourist industry, and non self-catering accommodation drives people to restaurants instead of supermarkets for their evening meal. No, the more I think about this the more I think this is a good move. Prune out the holiday lets that are underoccupied and they become either better-run lets, or housing for actual people.
You are missing the point that all these businesses you quote are about to be hit with a tourist tax on top of this
If this had been proposed for Devon and Cornwall or the Lake district you would have had a torrent of anger from the holiday industry
And by the way I do not lie
Tim Farron is running for re-election on the very question of holiday lets. They aren't greatly popular in the Lakes with the locals who tend to rather priorities having somewhere to live.
Yes but they bring in the income that no doubt supports many of their jobs
There is a balance to be struck but applying a tourist tax and reducing holiday accommodation is not one of them
They don't bring in any income if they are empty. And reducing holiday accommodation is smack bang what Farron thinks will keep him his seat. He probably knows better than me what the locals think.
Another way in which the article is silly is that this could encourage prices DOWN. Think about it. You can offer discounts on midweek off-season stays if the guest is staying the weekend. That might encourage some people to stay an extra day or two. That brings in more money, it doesn't increase the costs associated with booking, checking in and out, or other flat rates. The local economy gets a boost and the guests get more holiday without it breaking the bank. Everyone's a winner, except people who prefer to moan at the Welsh government for partisan reasons.
North Wales is depopulating.
The growth of holiday accommodation/second homes is caused by economic policy.
If there are no jobs, then there is rural depopulation. The consequent growth in holiday accommodation is caused by the depopulation -- not the other way round. There are empty houses that can be bought cheaply and turned into holiday lets. If they were not holiday lets, they'd fall into disrepair.
There are plenty of falling down, sad, derelict houses in almost all areas of North Wales. People used to live in those houses. They don't now because of depopulation.
As for your ideas in holiday lets in Wales in the winter -- they are bonkers.
Most tourist attractions in North Wales are shut in low season. Most restaurants are shut then (or have very limited hours).
No one is going to go and spend a few extra days in the middle of winter at Talsarnau, when there is nothing to do, nothing is open and the weather is wet, just because of Drakeford's idiotic policy.
I don't think Drakeford's plan makes much sense, apart from in some of the coastal resorts where second homes are a real problem (e.g. Aberdyfi, Tenby, Abersoch, Gwyr). In the rest of the country @Big_G_NorthWales is right -- they will destroy businesses and value.
Except occupancy rates are already above the thresholds that will be affected by this! This isn't a policy that will affect the average let. It's the ones that are taking up space and not generating income. An empty guest house doesn't do anything for the local economy.
As for "tourist attractions" being shut in the winter, that really depends. Museums and galleries are often open outside high season. Natural spaces like Snowdonia, Holy Island, Alyn Waters are open all year round.
I actually live in a formally very prosperous town in North Wales.
There are many houses that are just empty. I can go to my window and look out and count them. They are not second homes, they are just properties that are not let and no-one wants to live in.
I actually live in North Wales in the winter. I know the restaurants are usually shut completely in Jan & Feb, and they have restricted opening hours Oct-Mar
Museum and galleries in North Wales are almost always shut in the low season, apart from a few large attractions like Caernarfon Castle. Many CADW properties are shut in the winter.
Jesus .. you are behaving like HYUFD.
You live in Aberdeenshire, you are quoting guff from Welsh Government websites .. and everyone who knows North Wales is telling you that you are talking garbage.
If you told me something about Aberdeenshire, I'd believe you .. rather than going to google and quoting a government statistic back at you.
You're making out like North Wales tourism is a rare orchid that flowers for nine minutes per year. I guess the 600,000 annual visitors to Snowdon are all up on the summit in one mad stampede?
Try going on the Snowdon Mountain Railway site:
"Diesel departures leave Llanberis Station daily (weather conditions permitting) from the 14th April until the end of October every 30 minutes from 9am, subject to passenger demand.
Steam departures run from the 3rd June until the 11th September three times a day from 10:30am (weather conditions permitting)."
I don't suppose it will convince you -- because, from your roosting spot in Aberdeenshire, you clearly know more about North Wales than the actual residents, or the people running tourist attractions like Snowdon Mountain Railway.
It is pointless arguing with someone who has the @HYUFD attitude that he is right no matter others who are in touch with the issues daily
And he has not addressed the tourist tax which is an idiotic tax
G, I don't give a fk about the tourist tax either way. I haven't commented on it, I haven't thought about it. I'm not going to form an opinion on it just because you want me to. It might be a terrible idea, it might be a wonderful idea. Probably it's somewhere in between, idk. I have limited myself to talking about the ending of the tax break on "empty" holiday homes and a rather strange proxy argument over whether North Wales turns into North Korea as soon as the clocks go back. If you want to find someone who cares about tourist tax either way, I'm sure you'll find someone, but it's not me.
Of course you do not care, it is not being applied to the Scottish tourist industry
You simply are unable to accept the changes including the tourist tax are a threat to the one industry North Wales has and that is tourism when Welsh posters are telling you you are wrong
So be it
I think there was a tourist levy proposed for Edinburgh? I don't know if that was an SNP/Green proposal so perhaps the new Labour administration isn't going to do it but I STILL DON'T CARE.
You don't get to tell me I'm wrong about something I have not expressed an opinion on. You're itching for a fight over an issue I don't even care about. Your demand that I express an opinion about something I don't care about is weird.
Drakeford's destroying North Wales holiday industry from Cardiff
Tourism leaders in Wales have reacted with horror to confirmation of new occupancy rules for second homes and holiday lets. From April 1, 2023, the Welsh Government will insist that self-catering properties are let for at least 182 days each year in a move critics say will “decimate” the Welsh tourism industry.
Holiday lettings firm Finest Retreats, which promotes 29 holiday cottages in Wales, warned the challenging occupancy target will hit rural economies the hardest by driving up prices and making the country a “less attractive place to visit”. Tom Giffard, Welsh Conservative shadow tourism minister said it was a “devastating blow”, adding: “These new letting requirements will frankly be impossible for many self-caterers to meet.”
The Wales Tourism Alliance (WTA), which represents 6,000 tourism operators in Wales, believes 84% of the country's holiday lets could now be forced to close. WTA chair Suzy Davies said genuine holiday businesses will be caught up in a policy designed to clamp down on second homes. “Like dolphins accidentally caught in fishing nets, these businesses will die,” she cautioned.
On Tuesday, finance minister Rebecca Evans issued a written statement confirming Cardiff was pushing ahead with its plans despite opposition from the tourism sector. As with the Welsh Government’s new council tax policies, the approach is designed to tackle the housing crisis in Welsh-speaking communities in holiday hotspots.
The minister acknowledged that the stronger criteria “may be challenging for some operators to meet”. But she said: “The purpose of the change is to help ensure property owners are making a fair contribution to local communities, for example by increasing their contribution to the local economy through greater letting activity, or by paying council tax on their properties.”
To continue paying business rates, holiday rentals must be let for 182 days from April 1, 2023. Currently, the threshold is just 70 days. If holidays fail to meet the threshold, they pay council tax instead - and from April 2023 local counties will have the power to charge a council tax premium of up to 300%, effectively quadrupling bills.
Sorry, this looks like great news. Why should properties that are empty for 294 days a year get a tax break? Let people live there instead of keeping them empty for occasional holidaymakers. Good work Welsh Labour.
You clearly do not understand just how toxic this is for Welsh labour here in the heart of the North Wales holiday industry which is about to have a tourist tax put on them from Drakeford as well
Maybe I just care about affordable housing more. Your empty-house policy leaves me as cold as a homeless person.
Destroying the holiday industry losing thousands of jobs in businesses across North Wales is madness and could only be dreamt up by a Corbynista who just does not understand the local economy and simply does not care
And scroll on a page, you'll see that North Wales's figures are actually the strongest in Wales, averaging at 64%.
Even if a number of providers decide to drop out of the market, all that will do is increase the occupancy in competitors.
No, sorry, it seems you've been taken in by a scare story. The numbers don't fit at all with the apocalyptic predictions. Welsh Labour derangement syndrome, as Leon would probably call it.
This combined with the tourist tax will hit the holiday industry and believe you me it features all the time in the local media and Welsh news as various businesses forecast a fall in visitor numbers and a loss of holiday accommodation
No, sorry, I don't believe you me.
Apart from anything you're pretending the tourist industry is solely based around the kind of self-catering accommodation being referred to. Hotels, camping & caravans are a big part of the tourist industry, and non self-catering accommodation drives people to restaurants instead of supermarkets for their evening meal. No, the more I think about this the more I think this is a good move. Prune out the holiday lets that are underoccupied and they become either better-run lets, or housing for actual people.
You are missing the point that all these businesses you quote are about to be hit with a tourist tax on top of this
If this had been proposed for Devon and Cornwall or the Lake district you would have had a torrent of anger from the holiday industry
And by the way I do not lie
Tim Farron is running for re-election on the very question of holiday lets. They aren't greatly popular in the Lakes with the locals who tend to rather priorities having somewhere to live.
Yes but they bring in the income that no doubt supports many of their jobs
There is a balance to be struck but applying a tourist tax and reducing holiday accommodation is not one of them
They don't bring in any income if they are empty. And reducing holiday accommodation is smack bang what Farron thinks will keep him his seat. He probably knows better than me what the locals think.
Another way in which the article is silly is that this could encourage prices DOWN. Think about it. You can offer discounts on midweek off-season stays if the guest is staying the weekend. That might encourage some people to stay an extra day or two. That brings in more money, it doesn't increase the costs associated with booking, checking in and out, or other flat rates. The local economy gets a boost and the guests get more holiday without it breaking the bank. Everyone's a winner, except people who prefer to moan at the Welsh government for partisan reasons.
North Wales is depopulating.
The growth of holiday accommodation/second homes is caused by economic policy.
If there are no jobs, then there is rural depopulation. The consequent growth in holiday accommodation is caused by the depopulation -- not the other way round. There are empty houses that can be bought cheaply and turned into holiday lets. If they were not holiday lets, they'd fall into disrepair.
There are plenty of falling down, sad, derelict houses in almost all areas of North Wales. People used to live in those houses. They don't now because of depopulation.
As for your ideas in holiday lets in Wales in the winter -- they are bonkers.
Most tourist attractions in North Wales are shut in low season. Most restaurants are shut then (or have very limited hours).
No one is going to go and spend a few extra days in the middle of winter at Talsarnau, when there is nothing to do, nothing is open and the weather is wet, just because of Drakeford's idiotic policy.
I don't think Drakeford's plan makes much sense, apart from in some of the coastal resorts where second homes are a real problem (e.g. Aberdyfi, Tenby, Abersoch, Gwyr). In the rest of the country @Big_G_NorthWales is right -- they will destroy businesses and value.
Except occupancy rates are already above the thresholds that will be affected by this! This isn't a policy that will affect the average let. It's the ones that are taking up space and not generating income. An empty guest house doesn't do anything for the local economy.
As for "tourist attractions" being shut in the winter, that really depends. Museums and galleries are often open outside high season. Natural spaces like Snowdonia, Holy Island, Alyn Waters are open all year round.
I actually live in a formally very prosperous town in North Wales.
There are many houses that are just empty. I can go to my window and look out and count them. They are not second homes, they are just properties that are not let and no-one wants to live in.
I actually live in North Wales in the winter. I know the restaurants are usually shut completely in Jan & Feb, and they have restricted opening hours Oct-Mar
Museum and galleries in North Wales are almost always shut in the low season, apart from a few large attractions like Caernarfon Castle. Many CADW properties are shut in the winter.
Jesus .. you are behaving like HYUFD.
You live in Aberdeenshire, you are quoting guff from Welsh Government websites .. and everyone who knows North Wales is telling you that you are talking garbage.
If you told me something about Aberdeenshire, I'd believe you .. rather than going to google and quoting a government statistic back at you.
You're making out like North Wales tourism is a rare orchid that flowers for nine minutes per year. I guess the 600,000 annual visitors to Snowdon are all up on the summit in one mad stampede?
Try going on the Snowdon Mountain Railway site:
"Diesel departures leave Llanberis Station daily (weather conditions permitting) from the 14th April until the end of October every 30 minutes from 9am, subject to passenger demand.
Steam departures run from the 3rd June until the 11th September three times a day from 10:30am (weather conditions permitting)."
I don't suppose it will convince you -- because, from your roosting spot in Aberdeenshire, you clearly know more about North Wales than the actual residents, or the people running tourist attractions like Snowdon Mountain Railway.
Snowdon is a lot more than just the railway, and it's foolish to pretend the railway is the only thing people go for. I've been three times, and I still haven't been on the steam train. Do things wind down in the off season? Yes, I never said they didn't. Are there still people interested in visiting North Wales out of season? Definitely. I know because one of my trips was in the dead of winter. I wasn't alone!
If a US politician wanted to be radical they could suggest increasing the age limit to buy a gun to 21 and reducing the age limit to buy alcohol to 18.
I was surprised to learn recently that the drinking age in a lot of US states was indeed 18 in the 1970s and early 1980s.
That's right: the Reagan government made Federal Highway funds only available to States which had a drinking age of 21 (or higher).
Unlike some European cities gentrification has passed it by. I love the edginess.
Hire a bike on a weekend and cycle around the city: wonderful.
Berlin is gentrifying: have you seen what rents are doing?
Still possibly the cheapest capital in Western Europe for the tourist, though.
Cheaper than Lisbon?
Lisbon is getting increasingly expensive, as they are attracting a lot of technology businesses. A friend of mine's tech company is moving their main development hub to Lisbon. (The fact that he will only pay 20% income tax for the next decade probably is a factor too!)
For a socialist government in Portugal, they do seem to be very keen on giving very attractive deals for rich foreigners looking to get a good deal on taxes and opportunities to get a passport.
Interestingly, they have ruinously high rates of capital gains tax, but low income taxes. So, you wouldn't want to be there and trade a portfolio of shares... but you running (or moving) your business there is very attractive.
Unlike some European cities gentrification has passed it by. I love the edginess.
Hire a bike on a weekend and cycle around the city: wonderful.
Berlin is gentrifying: have you seen what rents are doing?
Still possibly the cheapest capital in Western Europe for the tourist, though.
Cheaper than Lisbon?
Lisbon is getting increasingly expensive, as they are attracting a lot of technology businesses. A friend of mine's tech company is moving their main development hub to Lisbon. (The fact that he will only pay 20% income tax for the next decade probably is a factor too!)
For a socialist government in Portugal, they do seem to be very keen on giving very attractive deals for rich foreigners looking to get a good deal on taxes and opportunities to get a passport.
Interestingly, they have ruinously high rates of capital gains tax, but low income taxes. So, you wouldn't want to be there and trade a portfolio of shares... but you running (or moving) your business there is very attractive.
Andy_JS said: "I was surprised to learn recently that the drinking age in a lot of US states was indeed 18 in the 1970s and early 1980s."
In at least one state (Illinois), for a time it was 18 for women, and 21 for men. (Don't recall any more details, but it temporarily made some young women quite popular.)
Unlike some European cities gentrification has passed it by. I love the edginess.
Hire a bike on a weekend and cycle around the city: wonderful.
Berlin is gentrifying: have you seen what rents are doing?
Still possibly the cheapest capital in Western Europe for the tourist, though.
Cheaper than Lisbon?
Lisbon is getting increasingly expensive, as they are attracting a lot of technology businesses. A friend of mine's tech company is moving their main development hub to Lisbon. (The fact that he will only pay 20% income tax for the next decade probably is a factor too!)
For a socialist government in Portugal, they do seem to be very keen on giving very attractive deals for rich foreigners looking to get a good deal on taxes and opportunities to get a passport.
Interestingly, they have ruinously high rates of capital gains tax, but low income taxes. So, you wouldn't want to be there and trade a portfolio of shares... but you running (or moving) your business there is very attractive.
At one point i was seriously considering relocating there, but was somewhat concerned what might happen with tax situation.
Unlike some European cities gentrification has passed it by. I love the edginess.
Hire a bike on a weekend and cycle around the city: wonderful.
Berlin is gentrifying: have you seen what rents are doing?
Still possibly the cheapest capital in Western Europe for the tourist, though.
Cheaper than Lisbon?
Lisbon is getting increasingly expensive, as they are attracting a lot of technology businesses. A friend of mine's tech company is moving their main development hub to Lisbon. (The fact that he will only pay 20% income tax for the next decade probably is a factor too!)
For a socialist government in Portugal, they do seem to be very keen on giving very attractive deals for rich foreigners looking to get a good deal on taxes and opportunities to get a passport.
Interestingly, they have ruinously high rates of capital gains tax, but low income taxes. So, you wouldn't want to be there and trade a portfolio of shares... but you running (or moving) your business there is very attractive.
Of the 88 key battleground seats which the Conservatives a) won from Labour in 2019 or b) hold with a majority of ≤15pts over Labour, our MRP shows the Tories holding on to just *three*
Unlike some European cities gentrification has passed it by. I love the edginess.
Hire a bike on a weekend and cycle around the city: wonderful.
Berlin is gentrifying: have you seen what rents are doing?
Still possibly the cheapest capital in Western Europe for the tourist, though.
Cheaper than Lisbon?
Lisbon is getting increasingly expensive, as they are attracting a lot of technology businesses. A friend of mine's tech company is moving their main development hub to Lisbon. (The fact that he will only pay 20% income tax for the next decade probably is a factor too!)
For a socialist government in Portugal, they do seem to be very keen on giving very attractive deals for rich foreigners looking to get a good deal on taxes and opportunities to get a passport.
Interestingly, they have ruinously high rates of capital gains tax, but low income taxes. So, you wouldn't want to be there and trade a portfolio of shares... but you running (or moving) your business there is very attractive.
But no taxes on crypto capital gains...
Unlikely to be a problem for many right now.
LOL...there are still a lot of people i know who got in very early and would be due a massive CGT bill.
Unlike some European cities gentrification has passed it by. I love the edginess.
Hire a bike on a weekend and cycle around the city: wonderful.
Berlin is gentrifying: have you seen what rents are doing?
Still possibly the cheapest capital in Western Europe for the tourist, though.
Cheaper than Lisbon?
Lisbon is getting increasingly expensive, as they are attracting a lot of technology businesses. A friend of mine's tech company is moving their main development hub to Lisbon. (The fact that he will only pay 20% income tax for the next decade probably is a factor too!)
For a socialist government in Portugal, they do seem to be very keen on giving very attractive deals for rich foreigners looking to get a good deal on taxes and opportunities to get a passport.
Interestingly, they have ruinously high rates of capital gains tax, but low income taxes. So, you wouldn't want to be there and trade a portfolio of shares... but you running (or moving) your business there is very attractive.
At one point i was seriously considering relocating there, but was somewhat concerned what might happen with tax situation.
I can imagine whiling my time away in Cascais or Estoril, but I would feel guilty emigrating and not speaking the language. It’s a lot harder than Spanish, especially listening.
Unlike some European cities gentrification has passed it by. I love the edginess.
Hire a bike on a weekend and cycle around the city: wonderful.
Berlin is gentrifying: have you seen what rents are doing?
Still possibly the cheapest capital in Western Europe for the tourist, though.
Cheaper than Lisbon?
Lisbon is getting increasingly expensive, as they are attracting a lot of technology businesses. A friend of mine's tech company is moving their main development hub to Lisbon. (The fact that he will only pay 20% income tax for the next decade probably is a factor too!)
For a socialist government in Portugal, they do seem to be very keen on giving very attractive deals for rich foreigners looking to get a good deal on taxes and opportunities to get a passport.
Interestingly, they have ruinously high rates of capital gains tax, but low income taxes. So, you wouldn't want to be there and trade a portfolio of shares... but you running (or moving) your business there is very attractive.
At one point i was seriously considering relocating there, but was somewhat concerned what might happen with tax situation.
I can imagine whiling my time away in Cascais or Estoril, but I would feel guilty emigrating and not speaking the language. It’s a lot harder than Spanish, especially listening.
Yes, Spanish is quite easy to get some basic level down chat down. Portuguese, I have never got anywhere with it when it comes to conversational level (even with I asked a good friend of mine who is Portuguese to try and give me lessons).
Exc: ITV News obtains documents given to some asylum seekers who have been chosen to be possibly deported to Rwanda. Gives just 7 days to make written submission as to why they shouldn’t be sent. Obtained by the brilliant @lili_donlon
This is shocking, it's like they're not human beings. Of course that is what Priti Patel thinks
Of the 88 key battleground seats which the Conservatives a) won from Labour in 2019 or b) hold with a majority of ≤15pts over Labour, our MRP shows the Tories holding on to just *three*
These losses include Boris Johnson's own seat
This is a disaster.
I don't think Johnson will fight the next election as PM. Tory MPs care about winning elections more than anything else.
Comments
But I'll guess that in the Lakes its holiday homes whereas in the Peaks its commuters to Sheffield, Manchester etc.
If it was reasonably why is the holiday industry in uproar and name anywhere else in the UK that is going to impose a tourist tax
Then the talks can begin perhaps.
There are many houses that are just empty. I can go to my window and look out and count them. They are not second homes, they are just properties that are not let and no-one wants to live in.
I actually live in North Wales in the winter. I know the restaurants are usually shut completely in Jan & Feb, and they have restricted opening hours Oct-Mar
Museum and galleries in North Wales are almost always shut in the low season, apart from a few large attractions like Caernarfon Castle. Many CADW properties are shut in the winter.
Jesus .. you are behaving like HYUFD.
You live in Aberdeenshire, you are quoting guff from Welsh Government websites .. and everyone who knows North Wales is telling you that you are talking garbage.
If you told me something about Aberdeenshire, I'd believe you .. rather than going to google and quoting a government statistic back at you.
The very fact that people are "in uproar" proves nothing. We shouldn't give in to that kind emotion-casting. One of the things Thatcher did that was right was to counter balance out the perma-outraged unions.
The better way for we who like to think of ourselves as rational is to dig in under the outrage and ask questions about whether the outrage is justified and even if it is whether there are other issues here. To me like the answers here are no, and yes.
I could post many more but I would respectively suggest you do not know the area, the industry or the feelings of those who earn a living from tourism
And you have not named anywhere else in the UK who thinks a tourist tax is a good idea
I demand we get furiously angry all the time to fuck Putin's strategy,
Can you get into Caernarfon Castle in December?
Hint: https://cadw.gov.wales/visit/places-to-visit/caernarfon-castle
Little Llandudno Museum is open 47 weeks a year.
You're making out like North Wales tourism is a rare orchid that flowers for nine minutes per year. I guess the 600,000 annual visitors to Snowdon are all up on the summit in one mad stampede?
So what is the business rate on a holiday let cottage?
We always treated to apocalypse stories whenever anything is changes. There's always someone outraged. The trick is to not just take their word for it and actually look at the meat of the proposals. They might be right sometimes. Not this time though.
Furthermore there are numerous times in the winter Snowdon is inaccessable
I am not sure you have even visited North Wales but from October to Easter few visitors are evident no matter if attractions are open
"Diesel departures leave Llanberis Station daily (weather conditions permitting) from the 14th April until the end of October every 30 minutes from 9am, subject to passenger demand.
Steam departures run from the 3rd June until the 11th September three times a day from 10:30am (weather conditions permitting)."
I don't suppose it will convince you -- because, from your roosting spot in Aberdeenshire, you clearly know more about North Wales than the actual residents, or the people running tourist attractions like Snowdon Mountain Railway.
And he has not addressed the tourist tax which is an idiotic tax
Do things wind down in the off season? Yes, I never said they didn't. Are there still people interested in visiting North Wales out of season? Definitely. I know because one of my trips was in the dead of winter. I wasn't alone!
You simply are unable to accept the changes including the tourist tax are a threat to the one industry North Wales has and that is tourism when Welsh posters are telling you you are wrong
So be it
https://github.com/leedrake5/Russia-Ukraine
Essentially this chap is scraping the Oryx data and automatically creating charts from it. Somewhat as people used to do with the COVID data....
Anyway - Russia is still losing equipment at a very considerable rate. And if they can't get tank manufacturing up and running, then they only have what's in storage.....
This whole ridiculous charade about what's open in winter has been largely besides the point. People DO come for whatever reason (hey, sometimes people just want to get away for a few days and sit and read in a pub), and if a holiday let needs a few extra days to tip them up over 50% occupancy, it's hardly rocket science to offer a discount.
This isn't about inventing demand where there is none, which is a much tougher proposition. It's simple upselling.
You don't get to tell me I'm wrong about something I have not expressed an opinion on. You're itching for a fight over an issue I don't even care about. Your demand that I express an opinion about something I don't care about is weird.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-61612599
That is still incredibly strict rules. I was hoping to visit in the near future, and have no interest in doing some sort of tour group.
In at least one state (Illinois), for a time it was 18 for women, and 21 for men. (Don't recall any more details, but it temporarily made some young women quite popular.)
Labour's big plan is very similar to the plan of the 1997 Government, to be very uncontroversial.
I also understand, in the coming days Keir Starmer's investigation will be concluding.
Of the 88 key battleground seats which the Conservatives a) won from Labour in 2019 or b) hold with a majority of ≤15pts over Labour, our MRP shows the Tories holding on to just *three*
These losses include Boris Johnson's own seat
This is a disaster.
Exc: ITV News obtains documents given to some asylum seekers who have been chosen to be possibly deported to Rwanda. Gives just 7 days to make written submission as to why they shouldn’t be sent. Obtained by the brilliant @lili_donlon
This is shocking, it's like they're not human beings. Of course that is what Priti Patel thinks
The next elections are July 25th, I expect they'll normalize everything else after that, unless a new, enhanced strain of covid drops in the meantime.