I’m not belittling the “crime”, though as scandals go we’ve all seen far worse. And I am sure SW1 bubble-types can still get excited by this, but for the public the flogged horse is not just dead it is entombed
And the fact there is a very similar photo of Starmer, bottle raised, clearly breaking the rules (as Boris broke the rules) makes it all a wash
Boris AND Starmer will survive. Either could be PM in 24
Bones of four hundred councillors lie strewn about its lair. Yes. People care.
Anyone who was going to get all hot and bothered by this is already super-hot and extremely bothered, this won’t suddenly tip over into ultra-galactic white-hot hotness and mega-cosmic botheredness from the constellation Bothered, You Bet. Anyone who was going to switch votes or opinions on the basis of this, has already done so
The ones left frothing, as @DavidL suggests, are Boris-haters, and they are generally embittered Remoaners. They want their revenge; I doubt this will provide it
They are desperate to get rid of Johnson as the left were desperate to get rid of Thatcher in 1990 and the right desperately wanted to get rid of Blair in 2007. However the reason was not what was really suggested, the reason they really wanted to get rid of them was because they were winners and indeed landslide general election winners.
Once rid of Thatcher Labour was able to win 3 out of 4 of the following general elections. Once rid of Blair the Conservatives were able to win all 4 of the following general elections too.
Tories should be wary of advice from OGH and non Tories to get rid of Boris, their most successful general election winner since Thatcher. They do not have the longterm interests of the Conservative party in mind
The Thatcher example is an odd one. I mean, that did work out in the interests of the party didnt it?
A scraped win in 1992 then 3 consecutive general election defeats, 2 by landslides
You think if Thatcher had not been challenged things would have gone better?
As a proud loyalist surely you were ecstatic when the party won in 1992? Yet you appear to suggest winning then was not the best for the party. So are you saying it is better for the party to lose sometimes, and if so when?
The fundamental question is this. What is Boris Johnson trying to achieve? Other than a series of slogans to keep himself in power? What is the aim of the wider Conservative Party? It isn't clear at all.
I’m not belittling the “crime”, though as scandals go we’ve all seen far worse. And I am sure SW1 bubble-types can still get excited by this, but for the public the flogged horse is not just dead it is entombed
And the fact there is a very similar photo of Starmer, bottle raised, clearly breaking the rules (as Boris broke the rules) makes it all a wash
Boris AND Starmer will survive. Either could be PM in 24
Bones of four hundred councillors lie strewn about its lair. Yes. People care.
Anyone who was going to get all hot and bothered by this is already super-hot and extremely bothered, this won’t suddenly tip over into ultra-galactic white-hot hotness and mega-cosmic botheredness from the constellation Bothered, You Bet. Anyone who was going to switch votes or opinions on the basis of this, has already done so
The ones left frothing, as @DavidL suggests, are Boris-haters, and they are generally embittered Remoaners. They want their revenge; I doubt this will provide it
God, you and Brexit. Just let it go. Boris should go for numerous reasons that are post Brexit. Nobody mentions it anymore except you in the context of getting rid of Boris. Literally nobody at all.
It is absurd to pretend that Boris-hatred isn’t driven, largely (but not always) by Brexit
And Boris-hatred is sustaining this tedious half-arsed scandal about booze-ups during lockdown, which made me angry for a bit in early 2022, but about which I now just can’t be arsed, as they say, especially as Labour have been just as devious and hypocritical
The PM is a lying chancer possibly undermining democracy, Starmer is a boring liar who wanted to cancel democracy with a 2nd referendum
In 2024 we will have to choose between these two unsavoury characters. Hey ho
Nonsense. Just to name a few leavers that immediately come to mind that want to see Boris gone: MarqueeMark, BartholomewRoberts, Casino_Royale, etc, etc. Look at the MPs like Steve Baker. It has nothing whatsoever to do with Brexit.
And the comments about Starmer are just tosh. I am no Starmer fan. I have never ever voted Labour, but there are no grounds to call him a liar (so far )
You are just driven mad by Brexit. God knows why. I am a passionate Remainer, but I accepted it. What is wrong with you; you won. Why can't you accept it.
I just looked at my phone Photos for November 2020 ... at no stage do any of them look like this. Try it with your photos... if you can find a party with raised glasses you probably were a Tory politician or SPAD .. that's how bad it is https://mobile.twitter.com/paulmasonnews/status/1528835927279288322
I looked, and found pictures of only two people I don’t live with, for the entire month. FWIW.
Its the whole drinking at work culture which surprises me.
I've not seen any alcohol drunk at my workplace for over 20 years or any work sponsored pub lunches for over 10 years.
I thought this was also the general trend throughout the country.
But not it seems in Downing Street.
Considering how often the bars come up in conversations about politics, I'm surprised at your surprise.
Anyway, I've often had alcohol at work, which makes me struggle to get outraged at either Keir or Boris having the same. I feel sorry that some people are so dry, or so lacking in self-control, that they think alcohol and work can't ever mix.
Unless you're driving of course, that's a different matter. Alcohol and driving don't mix, alcohol and work absolutely can.
Teaching? Surgery? I can think of plenty of others.
Oh certainly there are plenty where it doesn't mix, but that doesn't mean it can't mix for any.
Pubs are open at lunchtime for a reason. They have customers who come in at lunchtime, and yes many of them are people who are on their lunch break. Often, organised lunches at the pub.
I hope for our sake as a nation, that never changes.
Former Senator David Perdue ended his campaign for governor of Georgia with a racist appeal to Republican primary voters on Monday, accusing Stacey Abrams, the presumptive Democratic nominee, of “demeaning her own race.” https://twitter.com/nytimes/status/1528873446255599617
The truly disgraceful thing is the number of voters who are prepared to support him.
Yep I sat with two people yesterday one of whom has completely turned against Johnson but the other is still in love with him. Two of us were trying to persuade her of a thousand reasons why Boris Johnson is unfit for the office of PM but she still continues to "like Boris".
She's not a graduate and I throw that into the mix with caution because, despite occasionally suggesting otherwise, I don't really like that supercilious 'we know best' attitude. But I think it's pertinent because there's no doubt that Boris is continuing to draw support from non-graduates and those who have failed as yet to see through the magician's sleight of hand. Oh dear, I've just been supercilious. It's hard so don't get angry BR & Co.
It genuinely baffles me how anyone can still support him. And I'd have a lot more respect for the Conservatives if they had not just the bottle but the integrity to remove him.
I often wonder the same about serial philanderers who still manage to convince the next woman that this time they will be faithful. I think some people just really want to believe in Boris because he is, in some way that the rest of us just don't see, charming to a large portion of the population.
I also think there is another sizeable chunk who have no love for the man but see him as a vehicle for their partisan agenda so are happy to overlook the character flaws so long as he is [delivering Brexit; insulting the French; keeping out the migrants]. Unfortunately for him that pragmatic group doesn't now include: cutting taxes; keeping out Corbyn; levelling up; or for that matter "delivering Brexit".
Well indeed I think Boris should be forced out and have said so for about 7 months now but that for me is because he raised taxes and that was a deal-breaker. Had he not done that, I'd be happy for him to stay on, but he did and that's a breach of trust I can't accept.
I think the brouhaha over your guy was drinking alcohol because he's a party animal, my guy was drinking alcohol because he's hard at work campaigning is stupid, hypocritical asinine bullshit that has dominated the public conversation far too much but that doesn't change the fact that Boris should go because he raised taxes.
Everyone has their own red lines and that was my one.
Your red line? Yes. The legal red line? No. Anyone else's red line? Don't be silly.
Yet this is this week's straw man that you have decided will batter all other arguments and posters into submission. Erm, no.
PS I'm not the only poster aggrieved about the taxes issue. I could name at least half a dozen other right-wing economically former Conservative voters who think the same on that, so its hardly unique even if it isn't sufficient on its own.
No you're not, it's true.
However, conflating that with the partying is rather disingenuous. Putting up taxes may piss you off but it doesn't break the law.
It's slightly disturbing that you don't seem to understand the difference.
The Metropolitan Police seem to think that him raising a glass of alcohol at work didn't break the law either, and I expect that Durham Police will find the same thing about his opposite number, so its you that doesn't understand the difference it seems.
Some people are saying its outrageous that the Metropolitan Police didn't fine him for this (and no doubt will find it outrageous if Durham Police do fine their guy) and are saying the Met got it wrong. The Met getting it wrong is certainly possible, they're far from infallible, but if that's the card you want to play then I will say they got it wrong issuing a fine for having cake at work at 1pm. Again, what's sauce for the goose . . . 🤷♂️
I said before the start of this that Boris should go and at the start of this if Boris broke the law its another reason he should go. Since the only fine is for cake, and I think the fine for cake was unreasonable, I don't think "partygate" is a reason for Boris to go. He should still go over taxes though.
The Met issued fines to people at this event. So the event was not legal. So why are you repeating the Peter Bone line that it was legal? You aren't dumb like Peter Bone...
If someone breaks the law at an event, that does not make the event illegal, it means the Police judged the actions of whoever got fined were illegal.
If you and thousands of others go to a concert, but one person who goes to the concert is caught taking or supply drugs by the Police and that individual is fined, then does that make the concert itself an illegal event? No, don't be ridiculous.
Unless we get told why the person who got fined was fined, we don't know what they were fined for, so all we know for certain is the Police believe that they broke the law in some way, not that the event itself was unlawful.
LOL. So someone was (apparently) fined for partying at the event but the event wasn't a party. So that one person was having his own personal party independent of the event. Would someone do you think be fined for having a party on their own? I mean I know the police stopped two women holding coffees on their morning walk but arresting someone for a one-person party? Does it seem likely to you?
I’m not belittling the “crime”, though as scandals go we’ve all seen far worse. And I am sure SW1 bubble-types can still get excited by this, but for the public the flogged horse is not just dead it is entombed
And the fact there is a very similar photo of Starmer, bottle raised, clearly breaking the rules (as Boris broke the rules) makes it all a wash
Boris AND Starmer will survive. Either could be PM in 24
Bones of four hundred councillors lie strewn about its lair. Yes. People care.
Anyone who was going to get all hot and bothered by this is already super-hot and extremely bothered, this won’t suddenly tip over into ultra-galactic white-hot hotness and mega-cosmic botheredness from the constellation Bothered, You Bet. Anyone who was going to switch votes or opinions on the basis of this, has already done so
The ones left frothing, as @DavidL suggests, are Boris-haters, and they are generally embittered Remoaners. They want their revenge; I doubt this will provide it
They are desperate to get rid of Johnson as the left were desperate to get rid of Thatcher in 1990 and the right desperately wanted to get rid of Blair in 2007. However the reason was not what was really suggested, the reason they really wanted to get rid of them was because they were winners and indeed landslide general election winners.
Once rid of Thatcher Labour was able to win 3 out of 4 of the following general elections. Once rid of Blair the Conservatives were able to win all 4 of the following general elections too.
Tories should be wary of advice from OGH and non Tories to get rid of Boris, their most successful general election winner since Thatcher. They do not have the longterm interests of the Conservative party in mind
The Thatcher example is an odd one. I mean, that did work out in the interests of the party didnt it?
A scraped win in 1992 then 3 consecutive general election defeats, 2 by landslides
So you think the Thatcher campaign in 1990 should have been - "With Thatcher as Conservative leader we will lose the next general election but Labour will be so bad in government that the Conservatives will then win the next three. Short term pain for long term gain."
Had Thatcher led the Tories in 1992 she would either have narrowly lost to Kinnock or narrowly won. It would not have been the landslide defeat of 1997.
Had she lost then Heseltine for example could maybe even have led the Conservatives back to power in 1997 v PM Kinnock
I just looked at my phone Photos for November 2020 ... at no stage do any of them look like this. Try it with your photos... if you can find a party with raised glasses you probably were a Tory politician or SPAD .. that's how bad it is https://mobile.twitter.com/paulmasonnews/status/1528835927279288322
I looked, and found pictures of only two people I don’t live with, for the entire month. FWIW.
Its the whole drinking at work culture which surprises me.
I've not seen any alcohol drunk at my workplace for over 20 years or any work sponsored pub lunches for over 10 years.
I thought this was also the general trend throughout the country.
But not it seems in Downing Street.
Considering how often the bars come up in conversations about politics, I'm surprised at your surprise.
Anyway, I've often had alcohol at work, which makes me struggle to get outraged at either Keir or Boris having the same. I feel sorry that some people are so dry, or so lacking in self-control, that they think alcohol and work can't ever mix.
Unless you're driving of course, that's a different matter. Alcohol and driving don't mix, alcohol and work absolutely can.
Don't be ridiculous, as a teacher I would have been sacked for drinking at lunchtime, as well as many factory machinery operators.
I’m not belittling the “crime”, though as scandals go we’ve all seen far worse. And I am sure SW1 bubble-types can still get excited by this, but for the public the flogged horse is not just dead it is entombed
And the fact there is a very similar photo of Starmer, bottle raised, clearly breaking the rules (as Boris broke the rules) makes it all a wash
Boris AND Starmer will survive. Either could be PM in 24
Bones of four hundred councillors lie strewn about its lair. Yes. People care.
Anyone who was going to get all hot and bothered by this is already super-hot and extremely bothered, this won’t suddenly tip over into ultra-galactic white-hot hotness and mega-cosmic botheredness from the constellation Bothered, You Bet. Anyone who was going to switch votes or opinions on the basis of this, has already done so
The ones left frothing, as @DavidL suggests, are Boris-haters, and they are generally embittered Remoaners. They want their revenge; I doubt this will provide it
God, you and Brexit. Just let it go. Boris should go for numerous reasons that are post Brexit. Nobody mentions it anymore except you in the context of getting rid of Boris. Literally nobody at all.
It is absurd to pretend that Boris-hatred isn’t driven, largely (but not always) by Brexit
And Boris-hatred is sustaining this tedious half-arsed scandal about booze-ups during lockdown, which made me angry for a bit in early 2022, but about which I now just can’t be arsed, as they say, especially as Labour have been just as devious and hypocritical
The PM is a lying chancer possibly undermining democracy, Starmer is a boring liar who wanted to cancel democracy with a 2nd referendum
In 2024 we will have to choose between these two unsavoury characters. Hey ho
Nonsense. Just to name a few leavers that immediately come to mind that want to see Boris gone: MarqueeMark, BartholomewRoberts, Casino_Royale, etc, etc. Look at the MPs like Steve Baker. It has nothing whatsoever to do with Brexit.
And the comments about Starmer are just tosh. I am no Starmer fan. I have never ever voted Labour, but there are no grounds to call him a liar (so far )
You are just driven mad by Brexit. God knows why. I am a passionate Remainer, but I accepted it. What is wrong with you; you won. Why can't you accept it.
Remarkably 2 of his major defenders, amongst a dwindling band on here, were Remainers.
Former Senator David Perdue ended his campaign for governor of Georgia with a racist appeal to Republican primary voters on Monday, accusing Stacey Abrams, the presumptive Democratic nominee, of “demeaning her own race.” https://twitter.com/nytimes/status/1528873446255599617
The truly disgraceful thing is the number of voters who are prepared to support him.
Yep I sat with two people yesterday one of whom has completely turned against Johnson but the other is still in love with him. Two of us were trying to persuade her of a thousand reasons why Boris Johnson is unfit for the office of PM but she still continues to "like Boris".
She's not a graduate and I throw that into the mix with caution because, despite occasionally suggesting otherwise, I don't really like that supercilious 'we know best' attitude. But I think it's pertinent because there's no doubt that Boris is continuing to draw support from non-graduates and those who have failed as yet to see through the magician's sleight of hand. Oh dear, I've just been supercilious. It's hard so don't get angry BR & Co.
It genuinely baffles me how anyone can still support him. And I'd have a lot more respect for the Conservatives if they had not just the bottle but the integrity to remove him.
I often wonder the same about serial philanderers who still manage to convince the next woman that this time they will be faithful. I think some people just really want to believe in Boris because he is, in some way that the rest of us just don't see, charming to a large portion of the population.
I also think there is another sizeable chunk who have no love for the man but see him as a vehicle for their partisan agenda so are happy to overlook the character flaws so long as he is [delivering Brexit; insulting the French; keeping out the migrants]. Unfortunately for him that pragmatic group doesn't now include: cutting taxes; keeping out Corbyn; levelling up; or for that matter "delivering Brexit".
Well indeed I think Boris should be forced out and have said so for about 7 months now but that for me is because he raised taxes and that was a deal-breaker. Had he not done that, I'd be happy for him to stay on, but he did and that's a breach of trust I can't accept.
I think the brouhaha over your guy was drinking alcohol because he's a party animal, my guy was drinking alcohol because he's hard at work campaigning is stupid, hypocritical asinine bullshit that has dominated the public conversation far too much but that doesn't change the fact that Boris should go because he raised taxes.
Everyone has their own red lines and that was my one.
Your red line? Yes. The legal red line? No. Anyone else's red line? Don't be silly.
Yet this is this week's straw man that you have decided will batter all other arguments and posters into submission. Erm, no.
PS I'm not the only poster aggrieved about the taxes issue. I could name at least half a dozen other right-wing economically former Conservative voters who think the same on that, so its hardly unique even if it isn't sufficient on its own.
No you're not, it's true.
However, conflating that with the partying is rather disingenuous. Putting up taxes may piss you off but it doesn't break the law.
It's slightly disturbing that you don't seem to understand the difference.
The Metropolitan Police seem to think that him raising a glass of alcohol at work didn't break the law either, and I expect that Durham Police will find the same thing about his opposite number, so its you that doesn't understand the difference it seems.
Some people are saying its outrageous that the Metropolitan Police didn't fine him for this (and no doubt will find it outrageous if Durham Police do fine their guy) and are saying the Met got it wrong. The Met getting it wrong is certainly possible, they're far from infallible, but if that's the card you want to play then I will say they got it wrong issuing a fine for having cake at work at 1pm. Again, what's sauce for the goose . . . 🤷♂️
I said before the start of this that Boris should go and at the start of this if Boris broke the law its another reason he should go. Since the only fine is for cake, and I think the fine for cake was unreasonable, I don't think "partygate" is a reason for Boris to go. He should still go over taxes though.
The Met issued fines to people at this event. So the event was not legal. So why are you repeating the Peter Bone line that it was legal? You aren't dumb like Peter Bone...
If someone breaks the law at an event, that does not make the event illegal, it means the Police judged the actions of whoever got fined were illegal.
If you and thousands of others go to a concert, but one person who goes to the concert is caught taking or supply drugs by the Police and that individual is fined, then does that make the concert itself an illegal event? No, don't be ridiculous.
Unless we get told why the person who got fined was fined, we don't know what they were fined for, so all we know for certain is the Police believe that they broke the law in some way, not that the event itself was unlawful.
Yes yes. Are you suggesting the "issued an FPN for breaking the Covid rules" happened not because they were there for Lee Cain's leaving do but for other reasons?
You yourself upthread said the Met are deeply suspect in this. Because its self-evident that they are. We know that if being there is illegal then its fines for all. Hence Sunak getting one. Its an absolute offence. So if the people blurred out got FPNs for being at the piss-up but the person who organised it and led the drinking did not, its frankly silly to try and claim that he was ok to be there and its all above board.
You really should be a Tory MP mate. Your "see, see, there was ALCOHOL" is a far more convincing effort than Grant Shapps managed this morning.
Head of UN World Food Programme confirms talks are underway to secure sea and rail corridors for grain exports out of Ukraine, as Harpoon anti-ship missiles are on their way from Denmark.
How much use will sea corridors be unless somebody provides Ukraine with mine sweeping vessels and equipment?
It sounds like the plan is for an international naval fleet, flying UN flags, sweeping the area and keeping the corridor open, backed by land-based anti-ship weapons in Odesa. It sounds plausible, but no doubt the Russians will see it as provocative. The alternative is a global grain shortage this summer.
It would sound plausible if anybody in the Biden administration had said it. It doesn't sound plausible when it's just the Lithuanian Foreign Minister and Fizzy Lizzy saying it.
Throughout this whole year 'Fizzy Lizzy' has been saying things which people have mocked here as Liz jockeying for position until Biden has then said it a few days later.
Its quite clear that the communications between the Oval Office and Whitehall are as close as they have ever been and the Americans are quite happy to have 'Fizzy Lizzy' kite-flying in saying things first before Biden confirms it.
I just looked at my phone Photos for November 2020 ... at no stage do any of them look like this. Try it with your photos... if you can find a party with raised glasses you probably were a Tory politician or SPAD .. that's how bad it is https://mobile.twitter.com/paulmasonnews/status/1528835927279288322
I looked, and found pictures of only two people I don’t live with, for the entire month. FWIW.
Its the whole drinking at work culture which surprises me.
I've not seen any alcohol drunk at my workplace for over 20 years or any work sponsored pub lunches for over 10 years.
I thought this was also the general trend throughout the country.
But not it seems in Downing Street.
Downing Street is a totally different scenario to 99% of workplaces. It is virtually 24/7 and work blends into play which blends into the family life, of the occupants: they all intertwine. This is not some hideous innovation by BoJo and Carrie, if you read Bad Al Campbell’s excellent diaries of the Blair years, the same thing happened then
You get scenes where at 7am Al bursts in on Blair who is naked from the shower but they carry on talking about political issues anyway, and making decisions, then in the evening on busy days (and Covid in 2020 must have made them incredibly busy) the booze comes out at 8pm even as they carry on toiling, gossiping, eating takeaway
Judging by those diaries Number 10 and 11 are fun places to work IF you can tolerate long and intense hours and sometimes do all nighters, the upside of the hard yakka is that its all extremely interesting, and you can get drunk at your desk from time to time
Now it is highly arguable this culture should have stopped for Covid, but I can see why it didn’t, and why Partygate (and Kormagate) occurred
Former Senator David Perdue ended his campaign for governor of Georgia with a racist appeal to Republican primary voters on Monday, accusing Stacey Abrams, the presumptive Democratic nominee, of “demeaning her own race.” https://twitter.com/nytimes/status/1528873446255599617
The truly disgraceful thing is the number of voters who are prepared to support him.
Yep I sat with two people yesterday one of whom has completely turned against Johnson but the other is still in love with him. Two of us were trying to persuade her of a thousand reasons why Boris Johnson is unfit for the office of PM but she still continues to "like Boris".
She's not a graduate and I throw that into the mix with caution because, despite occasionally suggesting otherwise, I don't really like that supercilious 'we know best' attitude. But I think it's pertinent because there's no doubt that Boris is continuing to draw support from non-graduates and those who have failed as yet to see through the magician's sleight of hand. Oh dear, I've just been supercilious. It's hard so don't get angry BR & Co.
It genuinely baffles me how anyone can still support him. And I'd have a lot more respect for the Conservatives if they had not just the bottle but the integrity to remove him.
I often wonder the same about serial philanderers who still manage to convince the next woman that this time they will be faithful. I think some people just really want to believe in Boris because he is, in some way that the rest of us just don't see, charming to a large portion of the population.
I also think there is another sizeable chunk who have no love for the man but see him as a vehicle for their partisan agenda so are happy to overlook the character flaws so long as he is [delivering Brexit; insulting the French; keeping out the migrants]. Unfortunately for him that pragmatic group doesn't now include: cutting taxes; keeping out Corbyn; levelling up; or for that matter "delivering Brexit".
Well indeed I think Boris should be forced out and have said so for about 7 months now but that for me is because he raised taxes and that was a deal-breaker. Had he not done that, I'd be happy for him to stay on, but he did and that's a breach of trust I can't accept.
I think the brouhaha over your guy was drinking alcohol because he's a party animal, my guy was drinking alcohol because he's hard at work campaigning is stupid, hypocritical asinine bullshit that has dominated the public conversation far too much but that doesn't change the fact that Boris should go because he raised taxes.
Everyone has their own red lines and that was my one.
Your red line? Yes. The legal red line? No. Anyone else's red line? Don't be silly.
Yet this is this week's straw man that you have decided will batter all other arguments and posters into submission. Erm, no.
PS I'm not the only poster aggrieved about the taxes issue. I could name at least half a dozen other right-wing economically former Conservative voters who think the same on that, so its hardly unique even if it isn't sufficient on its own.
No you're not, it's true.
However, conflating that with the partying is rather disingenuous. Putting up taxes may piss you off but it doesn't break the law.
It's slightly disturbing that you don't seem to understand the difference.
The Metropolitan Police seem to think that him raising a glass of alcohol at work didn't break the law either, and I expect that Durham Police will find the same thing about his opposite number, so its you that doesn't understand the difference it seems.
Some people are saying its outrageous that the Metropolitan Police didn't fine him for this (and no doubt will find it outrageous if Durham Police do fine their guy) and are saying the Met got it wrong. The Met getting it wrong is certainly possible, they're far from infallible, but if that's the card you want to play then I will say they got it wrong issuing a fine for having cake at work at 1pm. Again, what's sauce for the goose . . . 🤷♂️
I said before the start of this that Boris should go and at the start of this if Boris broke the law its another reason he should go. Since the only fine is for cake, and I think the fine for cake was unreasonable, I don't think "partygate" is a reason for Boris to go. He should still go over taxes though.
The Met issued fines to people at this event. So the event was not legal. So why are you repeating the Peter Bone line that it was legal? You aren't dumb like Peter Bone...
If someone breaks the law at an event, that does not make the event illegal, it means the Police judged the actions of whoever got fined were illegal.
If you and thousands of others go to a concert, but one person who goes to the concert is caught taking or supply drugs by the Police and that individual is fined, then does that make the concert itself an illegal event? No, don't be ridiculous.
Unless we get told why the person who got fined was fined, we don't know what they were fined for, so all we know for certain is the Police believe that they broke the law in some way, not that the event itself was unlawful.
Could yoy upload an mp3 of the sound of one hand clapping? That would clarify things.
I just looked at my phone Photos for November 2020 ... at no stage do any of them look like this. Try it with your photos... if you can find a party with raised glasses you probably were a Tory politician or SPAD .. that's how bad it is https://mobile.twitter.com/paulmasonnews/status/1528835927279288322
I looked, and found pictures of only two people I don’t live with, for the entire month. FWIW.
Its the whole drinking at work culture which surprises me.
I've not seen any alcohol drunk at my workplace for over 20 years or any work sponsored pub lunches for over 10 years.
I thought this was also the general trend throughout the country.
But not it seems in Downing Street.
Considering how often the bars come up in conversations about politics, I'm surprised at your surprise.
Anyway, I've often had alcohol at work, which makes me struggle to get outraged at either Keir or Boris having the same. I feel sorry that some people are so dry, or so lacking in self-control, that they think alcohol and work can't ever mix.
Unless you're driving of course, that's a different matter. Alcohol and driving don't mix, alcohol and work absolutely can.
The Westminster bars I can understand - the late night sittings, the endless visitors to be entertained, the blokeish atmosphere, the home-away-from-home eating and drinking.
But the drinking while in the office should never have been acceptable and in my experience work sponsored pub and restaurant outings have faded away to leave only the Christmas evening meal remaining (and we've not had those for the last two years because of covid).
The spin job the government did was very, very successful. Everyone is arguing about the rights or wrongs of drinking at work, and the actual issue is the PM swearing blind that white is black to the House of Commons.
The evidence proves that he lied (and the only possible defence people have is that of "weasel words" which is no defence - the intent was to mislead. Almost no-one disputes this bit. And yet still the Tory backbenchers, and the Mail, back Johnson. Though few others, it would seem. The Times and even The Telegraph seem to have abandoned ship.
I just looked at my phone Photos for November 2020 ... at no stage do any of them look like this. Try it with your photos... if you can find a party with raised glasses you probably were a Tory politician or SPAD .. that's how bad it is https://mobile.twitter.com/paulmasonnews/status/1528835927279288322
I looked, and found pictures of only two people I don’t live with, for the entire month. FWIW.
Its the whole drinking at work culture which surprises me.
I've not seen any alcohol drunk at my workplace for over 20 years or any work sponsored pub lunches for over 10 years.
I thought this was also the general trend throughout the country.
But not it seems in Downing Street.
Considering how often the bars come up in conversations about politics, I'm surprised at your surprise.
Anyway, I've often had alcohol at work, which makes me struggle to get outraged at either Keir or Boris having the same. I feel sorry that some people are so dry, or so lacking in self-control, that they think alcohol and work can't ever mix.
Unless you're driving of course, that's a different matter. Alcohol and driving don't mix, alcohol and work absolutely can.
I'm surprised. In all my contracts of employment there's been a section on alcohol that goes something like this:
"Employees are not permitted to consume alcohol when at work out bring it onto Company premises without express permission of management. Any breach of this rule will be treated as gross misconduct and may result in summary dismissal."
This has been the same in the private and public sector. I thought it was standard boilerplate policy used everywhere. No drinking alcohol at work.
I just looked at my phone Photos for November 2020 ... at no stage do any of them look like this. Try it with your photos... if you can find a party with raised glasses you probably were a Tory politician or SPAD .. that's how bad it is https://mobile.twitter.com/paulmasonnews/status/1528835927279288322
I looked, and found pictures of only two people I don’t live with, for the entire month. FWIW.
Its the whole drinking at work culture which surprises me.
I've not seen any alcohol drunk at my workplace for over 20 years or any work sponsored pub lunches for over 10 years.
I thought this was also the general trend throughout the country.
But not it seems in Downing Street.
Considering how often the bars come up in conversations about politics, I'm surprised at your surprise.
Anyway, I've often had alcohol at work, which makes me struggle to get outraged at either Keir or Boris having the same. I feel sorry that some people are so dry, or so lacking in self-control, that they think alcohol and work can't ever mix.
Unless you're driving of course, that's a different matter. Alcohol and driving don't mix, alcohol and work absolutely can.
Don't be ridiculous, as a teacher I would have been sacked for drinking at lunchtime, as well as many factory machinery operators.
You're the one being ridiculous, you would be, but others in different industries would not.
And others in different industries might be sacked for doing something that you wouldn't be sacked for.
Since when do we all have to have the same rules? The same terms and conditions?
As a teacher, don't you think that the fact you're working with children means your conditions might be rather different to those that aren't?
Don't you think the fact someone is working with heavy machinery (whether automobiles or factories) might mean they have different health and safety regulations to those that aren't?
A builder might be sacked if they aren't wearing high vis and a hard hat on the site, does that mean you should be sacked as a teacher if you're not wearing high vis and a hard hat?
Head of UN World Food Programme confirms talks are underway to secure sea and rail corridors for grain exports out of Ukraine, as Harpoon anti-ship missiles are on their way from Denmark.
How much use will sea corridors be unless somebody provides Ukraine with mine sweeping vessels and equipment?
It sounds like the plan is for an international naval fleet, flying UN flags, sweeping the area and keeping the corridor open, backed by land-based anti-ship weapons in Odesa. It sounds plausible, but no doubt the Russians will see it as provocative. The alternative is a global grain shortage this summer.
It would sound plausible if anybody in the Biden administration had said it. It doesn't sound plausible when it's just the Lithuanian Foreign Minister and Fizzy Lizzy saying it.
Throughout this whole year 'Fizzy Lizzy' has been saying things which people have mocked here as Liz jockeying for position until Biden has then said it a few days later.
Its quite clear that the communications between the Oval Office and Whitehall are as close as they have ever been and the Americans are quite happy to have 'Fizzy Lizzy' kite-flying in saying things first before Biden confirms it.
I’m not belittling the “crime”, though as scandals go we’ve all seen far worse. And I am sure SW1 bubble-types can still get excited by this, but for the public the flogged horse is not just dead it is entombed
And the fact there is a very similar photo of Starmer, bottle raised, clearly breaking the rules (as Boris broke the rules) makes it all a wash
Boris AND Starmer will survive. Either could be PM in 24
Bones of four hundred councillors lie strewn about its lair. Yes. People care.
Anyone who was going to get all hot and bothered by this is already super-hot and extremely bothered, this won’t suddenly tip over into ultra-galactic white-hot hotness and mega-cosmic botheredness from the constellation Bothered, You Bet. Anyone who was going to switch votes or opinions on the basis of this, has already done so
The ones left frothing, as @DavidL suggests, are Boris-haters, and they are generally embittered Remoaners. They want their revenge; I doubt this will provide it
God, you and Brexit. Just let it go. Boris should go for numerous reasons that are post Brexit. Nobody mentions it anymore except you in the context of getting rid of Boris. Literally nobody at all.
It is absurd to pretend that Boris-hatred isn’t driven, largely (but not always) by Brexit
And Boris-hatred is sustaining this tedious half-arsed scandal about booze-ups during lockdown, which made me angry for a bit in early 2022, but about which I now just can’t be arsed, as they say, especially as Labour have been just as devious and hypocritical
The PM is a lying chancer possibly undermining democracy, Starmer is a boring liar who wanted to cancel democracy with a 2nd referendum
In 2024 we will have to choose between these two unsavoury characters. Hey ho
Nonsense. Just to name a few leavers that immediately come to mind that want to see Boris gone: MarqueeMark, BartholomewRoberts, Casino_Royale, etc, etc. Look at the MPs like Steve Baker. It has nothing whatsoever to do with Brexit.
And the comments about Starmer are just tosh. I am no Starmer fan. I have never ever voted Labour, but there are no grounds to call him a liar (so far )
You are just driven mad by Brexit. God knows why. I am a passionate Remainer, but I accepted it. What is wrong with you; you won. Why can't you accept it.
Starmer is a lying c*** who wanted to overturn the biggest vote in British history, by ignoring it. He literally wanted to demolish democracy by telling all the thick racist Leavers “No, your vote didn’t count, so we’re having another one, until you get it right”
There’s no getting around it. This is what he did. And he was Shadow Secretary for Brexit. I can see why Starmer is desperate for everyone to forget this and “move on”. But some of us will not. He needs to grovel and apologise and ask for our forgiveness
I just looked at my phone Photos for November 2020 ... at no stage do any of them look like this. Try it with your photos... if you can find a party with raised glasses you probably were a Tory politician or SPAD .. that's how bad it is https://mobile.twitter.com/paulmasonnews/status/1528835927279288322
I looked, and found pictures of only two people I don’t live with, for the entire month. FWIW.
Its the whole drinking at work culture which surprises me.
I've not seen any alcohol drunk at my workplace for over 20 years or any work sponsored pub lunches for over 10 years.
I thought this was also the general trend throughout the country.
But not it seems in Downing Street.
Considering how often the bars come up in conversations about politics, I'm surprised at your surprise.
Anyway, I've often had alcohol at work, which makes me struggle to get outraged at either Keir or Boris having the same. I feel sorry that some people are so dry, or so lacking in self-control, that they think alcohol and work can't ever mix.
Unless you're driving of course, that's a different matter. Alcohol and driving don't mix, alcohol and work absolutely can.
I'm surprised. In all my contacts of employment there's been a section on alcohol that goes something like this:
"Employees are not permitted to consume alcohol when at work out bring it onto Company premises without express permission of management. Any breach of this rule will be treated as gross misconduct and may result in summary dismissal."
This has been the same in the private and public sector. I thought it was standard boilerplate policy used everywhere. No drinking alcohol at work.
If you thought that then you'd be wrong then.
It is boilerplate policy for many workplaces, but not remotely everywhere.
As visiting any random pub at lunchtime on a workday would probably confirm to you. Hell, haven't we had many conversations about how the pub trade is struggling in cities since people aren't commuting to the office anymore?
I just looked at my phone Photos for November 2020 ... at no stage do any of them look like this. Try it with your photos... if you can find a party with raised glasses you probably were a Tory politician or SPAD .. that's how bad it is https://mobile.twitter.com/paulmasonnews/status/1528835927279288322
I looked, and found pictures of only two people I don’t live with, for the entire month. FWIW.
Its the whole drinking at work culture which surprises me.
I've not seen any alcohol drunk at my workplace for over 20 years or any work sponsored pub lunches for over 10 years.
I thought this was also the general trend throughout the country.
But not it seems in Downing Street.
Considering how often the bars come up in conversations about politics, I'm surprised at your surprise.
Anyway, I've often had alcohol at work, which makes me struggle to get outraged at either Keir or Boris having the same. I feel sorry that some people are so dry, or so lacking in self-control, that they think alcohol and work can't ever mix.
Unless you're driving of course, that's a different matter. Alcohol and driving don't mix, alcohol and work absolutely can.
Don't be ridiculous, as a teacher I would have been sacked for drinking at lunchtime, as well as many factory machinery operators.
You're the one being ridiculous, you would be, but others in different industries would not.
And others in different industries might be sacked for doing something that you wouldn't be sacked for.
Since when do we all have to have the same rules? The same terms and conditions?
As a teacher, don't you think that the fact you're working with children means your conditions might be rather different to those that aren't?
Don't you think the fact someone is working with heavy machinery (whether automobiles or factories) might mean they have different health and safety regulations to those that aren't?
A builder might be sacked if they aren't wearing high vis and a hard hat on the site, does that mean you should be sacked as a teacher if you're not wearing high vis and a hard hat?
I appreciate you raising the idea that there may be different regulations for one thing compared to another thing. And yet you consistently talk about "covid regulations" like they never changed and how something that happened in April 21 under one set of regulations definitely disproves something different that happened in November 20 un der a different set of regulations.
Its that Father Ted moment when he explains to Dougal that some things are small, and other things are far away.
(((Dan Hodges))) @DPJHodges · 1h A serious question. Did senior Met police officers attend any "legal" leaving events during lockdown in which alcohol was served. Were any such events held in Scotland Yard, or other Met police stations, during lockdown. Because if they did, it might explain something.
I just looked at my phone Photos for November 2020 ... at no stage do any of them look like this. Try it with your photos... if you can find a party with raised glasses you probably were a Tory politician or SPAD .. that's how bad it is https://mobile.twitter.com/paulmasonnews/status/1528835927279288322
I looked, and found pictures of only two people I don’t live with, for the entire month. FWIW.
Its the whole drinking at work culture which surprises me.
I've not seen any alcohol drunk at my workplace for over 20 years or any work sponsored pub lunches for over 10 years.
I thought this was also the general trend throughout the country.
But not it seems in Downing Street.
Downing Street is a totally different scenario to 99% of workplaces. It is virtually 24/7 and work blends into play which blends into the family life, of the occupants: they all intertwine. This is not some hideous innovation by BoJo and Carrie, if you read Bad Al Campbell’s excellent diaries of the Blair years, the same thing happened then
You get scenes where at 7am Al bursts in on Blair who is naked from the shower but they carry on talking about political issues anyway, and making decisions, then in the evening on busy days (and Covid in 2020 must have made them incredibly busy) the booze comes out at 8pm even as they carry on toiling, gossiping, eating takeaway
Judging by those diaries Number 10 and 11 are fun places to work IF you can tolerate long and intense hours and sometimes do all nighters, the upside of the hard yakka is that its all extremely interesting, and you can get drunk at your desk from time to time
Now it is highly arguable this culture should have stopped for Covid, but I can see why it didn’t, and why Partygate (and Kormagate) occurred
I just looked at my phone Photos for November 2020 ... at no stage do any of them look like this. Try it with your photos... if you can find a party with raised glasses you probably were a Tory politician or SPAD .. that's how bad it is https://mobile.twitter.com/paulmasonnews/status/1528835927279288322
I looked, and found pictures of only two people I don’t live with, for the entire month. FWIW.
Its the whole drinking at work culture which surprises me.
I've not seen any alcohol drunk at my workplace for over 20 years or any work sponsored pub lunches for over 10 years.
I thought this was also the general trend throughout the country.
But not it seems in Downing Street.
Considering how often the bars come up in conversations about politics, I'm surprised at your surprise.
Anyway, I've often had alcohol at work, which makes me struggle to get outraged at either Keir or Boris having the same. I feel sorry that some people are so dry, or so lacking in self-control, that they think alcohol and work can't ever mix.
Unless you're driving of course, that's a different matter. Alcohol and driving don't mix, alcohol and work absolutely can.
Don't be ridiculous, as a teacher I would have been sacked for drinking at lunchtime, as well as many factory machinery operators.
You're the one being ridiculous, you would be, but others in different industries would not.
And others in different industries might be sacked for doing something that you wouldn't be sacked for.
Since when do we all have to have the same rules? The same terms and conditions?
As a teacher, don't you think that the fact you're working with children means your conditions might be rather different to those that aren't?
Don't you think the fact someone is working with heavy machinery (whether automobiles or factories) might mean they have different health and safety regulations to those that aren't?
A builder might be sacked if they aren't wearing high vis and a hard hat on the site, does that mean you should be sacked as a teacher if you're not wearing high vis and a hard hat?
What are you talking about?
We are talking about drinking at lunchtime.
I think you are dancing on the head of a pin here, trying to defend the indefensible.
I’m not belittling the “crime”, though as scandals go we’ve all seen far worse. And I am sure SW1 bubble-types can still get excited by this, but for the public the flogged horse is not just dead it is entombed
And the fact there is a very similar photo of Starmer, bottle raised, clearly breaking the rules (as Boris broke the rules) makes it all a wash
Boris AND Starmer will survive. Either could be PM in 24
Bones of four hundred councillors lie strewn about its lair. Yes. People care.
Anyone who was going to get all hot and bothered by this is already super-hot and extremely bothered, this won’t suddenly tip over into ultra-galactic white-hot hotness and mega-cosmic botheredness from the constellation Bothered, You Bet. Anyone who was going to switch votes or opinions on the basis of this, has already done so
The ones left frothing, as @DavidL suggests, are Boris-haters, and they are generally embittered Remoaners. They want their revenge; I doubt this will provide it
God, you and Brexit. Just let it go. Boris should go for numerous reasons that are post Brexit. Nobody mentions it anymore except you in the context of getting rid of Boris. Literally nobody at all.
It is absurd to pretend that Boris-hatred isn’t driven, largely (but not always) by Brexit
And Boris-hatred is sustaining this tedious half-arsed scandal about booze-ups during lockdown, which made me angry for a bit in early 2022, but about which I now just can’t be arsed, as they say, especially as Labour have been just as devious and hypocritical
The PM is a lying chancer possibly undermining democracy, Starmer is a boring liar who wanted to cancel democracy with a 2nd referendum
In 2024 we will have to choose between these two unsavoury characters. Hey ho
Nonsense. Just to name a few leavers that immediately come to mind that want to see Boris gone: MarqueeMark, BartholomewRoberts, Casino_Royale, etc, etc. Look at the MPs like Steve Baker. It has nothing whatsoever to do with Brexit.
And the comments about Starmer are just tosh. I am no Starmer fan. I have never ever voted Labour, but there are no grounds to call him a liar (so far )
You are just driven mad by Brexit. God knows why. I am a passionate Remainer, but I accepted it. What is wrong with you; you won. Why can't you accept it.
Starmer is a lying c*** who wanted to overturn the biggest vote in British history, by ignoring it. He literally wanted to demolish democracy by telling all the thick racist Leavers “No, your vote didn’t count, so we’re having another one, until you get it right”
There’s no getting around it. This is what he did. And he was Shadow Secretary for Brexit. I can see why Starmer is desperate for everyone to forget this and “move on”. But some of us will not. He needs to grovel and apologise and ask for our forgiveness
Its certainly the opinion that a lot of people share. Doesn't make it right though. There's something about voting to have our parliament sovereign, then after an election demanding that our parliament not be sovereign that beggars belief.
This government are about to pass laws to abolish laws it passed earlier in this parliament as a manifesto commitment. So not even laws in this parliament are sacrosanct - parliament isn't bound by actions in previous sessions never mind previous parliaments. Yet uniquely the referendum must overrule all parliaments that follow and the election result of 2017.
"But they weren't elected to scrap Brexit" I hear you say. Perhaps. Were Boris Johnson and Tory MPs elected to scrap the oven-ready deal? Parliament can literally do whatever it wants to vote for. Thats our system. And by voting to remove the influence of external things like the European Parliament we voted quite literally for the right of this government to scrap its own manifesto.
Former Senator David Perdue ended his campaign for governor of Georgia with a racist appeal to Republican primary voters on Monday, accusing Stacey Abrams, the presumptive Democratic nominee, of “demeaning her own race.” https://twitter.com/nytimes/status/1528873446255599617
The truly disgraceful thing is the number of voters who are prepared to support him.
Yep I sat with two people yesterday one of whom has completely turned against Johnson but the other is still in love with him. Two of us were trying to persuade her of a thousand reasons why Boris Johnson is unfit for the office of PM but she still continues to "like Boris".
She's not a graduate and I throw that into the mix with caution because, despite occasionally suggesting otherwise, I don't really like that supercilious 'we know best' attitude. But I think it's pertinent because there's no doubt that Boris is continuing to draw support from non-graduates and those who have failed as yet to see through the magician's sleight of hand. Oh dear, I've just been supercilious. It's hard so don't get angry BR & Co.
It genuinely baffles me how anyone can still support him. And I'd have a lot more respect for the Conservatives if they had not just the bottle but the integrity to remove him.
I often wonder the same about serial philanderers who still manage to convince the next woman that this time they will be faithful. I think some people just really want to believe in Boris because he is, in some way that the rest of us just don't see, charming to a large portion of the population.
I also think there is another sizeable chunk who have no love for the man but see him as a vehicle for their partisan agenda so are happy to overlook the character flaws so long as he is [delivering Brexit; insulting the French; keeping out the migrants]. Unfortunately for him that pragmatic group doesn't now include: cutting taxes; keeping out Corbyn; levelling up; or for that matter "delivering Brexit".
Well indeed I think Boris should be forced out and have said so for about 7 months now but that for me is because he raised taxes and that was a deal-breaker. Had he not done that, I'd be happy for him to stay on, but he did and that's a breach of trust I can't accept.
I think the brouhaha over your guy was drinking alcohol because he's a party animal, my guy was drinking alcohol because he's hard at work campaigning is stupid, hypocritical asinine bullshit that has dominated the public conversation far too much but that doesn't change the fact that Boris should go because he raised taxes.
Everyone has their own red lines and that was my one.
Your red line? Yes. The legal red line? No. Anyone else's red line? Don't be silly.
Yet this is this week's straw man that you have decided will batter all other arguments and posters into submission. Erm, no.
PS I'm not the only poster aggrieved about the taxes issue. I could name at least half a dozen other right-wing economically former Conservative voters who think the same on that, so its hardly unique even if it isn't sufficient on its own.
No you're not, it's true.
However, conflating that with the partying is rather disingenuous. Putting up taxes may piss you off but it doesn't break the law.
It's slightly disturbing that you don't seem to understand the difference.
The Metropolitan Police seem to think that him raising a glass of alcohol at work didn't break the law either, and I expect that Durham Police will find the same thing about his opposite number, so its you that doesn't understand the difference it seems.
Some people are saying its outrageous that the Metropolitan Police didn't fine him for this (and no doubt will find it outrageous if Durham Police do fine their guy) and are saying the Met got it wrong. The Met getting it wrong is certainly possible, they're far from infallible, but if that's the card you want to play then I will say they got it wrong issuing a fine for having cake at work at 1pm. Again, what's sauce for the goose . . . 🤷♂️
I said before the start of this that Boris should go and at the start of this if Boris broke the law its another reason he should go. Since the only fine is for cake, and I think the fine for cake was unreasonable, I don't think "partygate" is a reason for Boris to go. He should still go over taxes though.
The Met issued fines to people at this event. So the event was not legal. So why are you repeating the Peter Bone line that it was legal? You aren't dumb like Peter Bone...
If someone breaks the law at an event, that does not make the event illegal, it means the Police judged the actions of whoever got fined were illegal.
If you and thousands of others go to a concert, but one person who goes to the concert is caught taking or supply drugs by the Police and that individual is fined, then does that make the concert itself an illegal event? No, don't be ridiculous.
Unless we get told why the person who got fined was fined, we don't know what they were fined for, so all we know for certain is the Police believe that they broke the law in some way, not that the event itself was unlawful.
IIRC yesterday Cyclefree said that gatherings cannot intrinsically be either legal or illegal - and she should know.
I just looked at my phone Photos for November 2020 ... at no stage do any of them look like this. Try it with your photos... if you can find a party with raised glasses you probably were a Tory politician or SPAD .. that's how bad it is https://mobile.twitter.com/paulmasonnews/status/1528835927279288322
I looked, and found pictures of only two people I don’t live with, for the entire month. FWIW.
Its the whole drinking at work culture which surprises me.
I've not seen any alcohol drunk at my workplace for over 20 years or any work sponsored pub lunches for over 10 years.
I thought this was also the general trend throughout the country.
But not it seems in Downing Street.
Considering how often the bars come up in conversations about politics, I'm surprised at your surprise.
Anyway, I've often had alcohol at work, which makes me struggle to get outraged at either Keir or Boris having the same. I feel sorry that some people are so dry, or so lacking in self-control, that they think alcohol and work can't ever mix.
Unless you're driving of course, that's a different matter. Alcohol and driving don't mix, alcohol and work absolutely can.
The Westminster bars I can understand - the late night sittings, the endless visitors to be entertained, the blokeish atmosphere, the home-away-from-home eating and drinking.
But the drinking while in the office should never have been acceptable and in my experience work sponsored pub and restaurant outings have faded away to leave only the Christmas evening meal remaining (and we've not had those for the last two years because of covid).
But you and others making this argument are guilty of a category error. Politics at a high level - like PM of the UK - just never stops. This is increasingly true with social media and 24/7 news, but it has been true for many decades
Consider the multiple movies and dramas made about Churchill during the Blitz. There are scenes where he is naked in his bath sucking on a cigar and drinking whisky, even as he gives orders to underlings and a Secretary writes down his next speech
Why? Because the work never stopped, so it all blended together. Churchill needed a bath and a cigar and some scotch to relax, but Britain was in a terrible war so the decisions and dilemmas came at him, hourly, and he could not stop entirely
Perhaps a special constable should have marched in and taken the whisky and cigar away and said “You’re not allowed this, Winston, just do your job”?
And of course Number 10 during peak Covid - November-March 2020-21 must have felt like a wartime government
FWIW I agree with @mwadams and Boris’ real sin was lying about this to the Commons. He should have just made my argument. Yes, we drank, because life and work was all of a piece in that terrible time
(((Dan Hodges))) @DPJHodges · 1h A serious question. Did senior Met police officers attend any "legal" leaving events during lockdown in which alcohol was served. Were any such events held in Scotland Yard, or other Met police stations, during lockdown. Because if they did, it might explain something.
Yeah I'm the only one who thinks people are banging on about alcohol.
The only reason people are saying Boris attended a party is because there's alcohol present, but alcohol != party. Alcohol != unlawful.
Hodges at least is being consistent, he claimed that Keir having alcohol was unlawful, and he claims that Boris having alcohol was too. He's wrong, but he's consistent, unlike all the hypocrites here whose views change relative to whoever the subject is.
I just looked at my phone Photos for November 2020 ... at no stage do any of them look like this. Try it with your photos... if you can find a party with raised glasses you probably were a Tory politician or SPAD .. that's how bad it is https://mobile.twitter.com/paulmasonnews/status/1528835927279288322
I looked, and found pictures of only two people I don’t live with, for the entire month. FWIW.
Its the whole drinking at work culture which surprises me.
I've not seen any alcohol drunk at my workplace for over 20 years or any work sponsored pub lunches for over 10 years.
I thought this was also the general trend throughout the country.
But not it seems in Downing Street.
Downing Street is a totally different scenario to 99% of workplaces. It is virtually 24/7 and work blends into play which blends into the family life, of the occupants: they all intertwine. This is not some hideous innovation by BoJo and Carrie, if you read Bad Al Campbell’s excellent diaries of the Blair years, the same thing happened then
You get scenes where at 7am Al bursts in on Blair who is naked from the shower but they carry on talking about political issues anyway, and making decisions, then in the evening on busy days (and Covid in 2020 must have made them incredibly busy) the booze comes out at 8pm even as they carry on toiling, gossiping, eating takeaway
Judging by those diaries Number 10 and 11 are fun places to work IF you can tolerate long and intense hours and sometimes do all nighters, the upside of the hard yakka is that its all extremely interesting, and you can get drunk at your desk from time to time
Now it is highly arguable this culture should have stopped for Covid, but I can see why it didn’t, and why Partygate (and Kormagate) occurred
I get the impression that the booze has been coming out a lot earlier than 8pm.
In fact I get the impression that the booze is always out.
This might be deemed acceptable in Downing Street but it seems they don't even have the sense to not send emails encouraging it or not get their mobiles out to provide evidence of it.
Tottenham Court Road to Paddington in FIVE minutes
Farringdon to Canary Wharf: ten minutes
Heathrow to anywhere in central London: thirty minutes, 44 minutes to Canary Wharf
Game-changer for a lot of places along the line
19 billion spent on London transport is not going to be a cause of celebration for the rest of the country at a time HS2 and 3 have been either curtailed or cancelled
I just looked at my phone Photos for November 2020 ... at no stage do any of them look like this. Try it with your photos... if you can find a party with raised glasses you probably were a Tory politician or SPAD .. that's how bad it is https://mobile.twitter.com/paulmasonnews/status/1528835927279288322
I looked, and found pictures of only two people I don’t live with, for the entire month. FWIW.
Its the whole drinking at work culture which surprises me.
I've not seen any alcohol drunk at my workplace for over 20 years or any work sponsored pub lunches for over 10 years.
I thought this was also the general trend throughout the country.
But not it seems in Downing Street.
Downing Street is a totally different scenario to 99% of workplaces. It is virtually 24/7 and work blends into play which blends into the family life, of the occupants: they all intertwine. This is not some hideous innovation by BoJo and Carrie, if you read Bad Al Campbell’s excellent diaries of the Blair years, the same thing happened then
You get scenes where at 7am Al bursts in on Blair who is naked from the shower but they carry on talking about political issues anyway, and making decisions, then in the evening on busy days (and Covid in 2020 must have made them incredibly busy) the booze comes out at 8pm even as they carry on toiling, gossiping, eating takeaway
Judging by those diaries Number 10 and 11 are fun places to work IF you can tolerate long and intense hours and sometimes do all nighters, the upside of the hard yakka is that its all extremely interesting, and you can get drunk at your desk from time to time
Now it is highly arguable this culture should have stopped for Covid, but I can see why it didn’t, and why Partygate (and Kormagate) occurred
I get the impression that the booze has been coming out a lot earlier than 8pm.
In fact I get the impression that the booze is always out.
This might be deemed acceptable in Downing Street but it seems they don't even have the sense to not send emails encouraging it or not get their mobiles out to provide evidence of it.
Churchill STARTED the day at Number 10 with a neat whisky. He called it his “mouthwash”
It is remarkable to think that we won WW2 with a PM who was half cut virtually all the time
I’m not belittling the “crime”, though as scandals go we’ve all seen far worse. And I am sure SW1 bubble-types can still get excited by this, but for the public the flogged horse is not just dead it is entombed
And the fact there is a very similar photo of Starmer, bottle raised, clearly breaking the rules (as Boris broke the rules) makes it all a wash
Boris AND Starmer will survive. Either could be PM in 24
Bones of four hundred councillors lie strewn about its lair. Yes. People care.
Anyone who was going to get all hot and bothered by this is already super-hot and extremely bothered, this won’t suddenly tip over into ultra-galactic white-hot hotness and mega-cosmic botheredness from the constellation Bothered, You Bet. Anyone who was going to switch votes or opinions on the basis of this, has already done so
The ones left frothing, as @DavidL suggests, are Boris-haters, and they are generally embittered Remoaners. They want their revenge; I doubt this will provide it
God, you and Brexit. Just let it go. Boris should go for numerous reasons that are post Brexit. Nobody mentions it anymore except you in the context of getting rid of Boris. Literally nobody at all.
It is absurd to pretend that Boris-hatred isn’t driven, largely (but not always) by Brexit
And Boris-hatred is sustaining this tedious half-arsed scandal about booze-ups during lockdown, which made me angry for a bit in early 2022, but about which I now just can’t be arsed, as they say, especially as Labour have been just as devious and hypocritical
The PM is a lying chancer possibly undermining democracy, Starmer is a boring liar who wanted to cancel democracy with a 2nd referendum
In 2024 we will have to choose between these two unsavoury characters. Hey ho
Nonsense. Just to name a few leavers that immediately come to mind that want to see Boris gone: MarqueeMark, BartholomewRoberts, Casino_Royale, etc, etc. Look at the MPs like Steve Baker. It has nothing whatsoever to do with Brexit.
And the comments about Starmer are just tosh. I am no Starmer fan. I have never ever voted Labour, but there are no grounds to call him a liar (so far )
You are just driven mad by Brexit. God knows why. I am a passionate Remainer, but I accepted it. What is wrong with you; you won. Why can't you accept it.
Starmer is a lying c*** who wanted to overturn the biggest vote in British history, by ignoring it. He literally wanted to demolish democracy by telling all the thick racist Leavers “No, your vote didn’t count, so we’re having another one, until you get it right”
There’s no getting around it. This is what he did. And he was Shadow Secretary for Brexit. I can see why Starmer is desperate for everyone to forget this and “move on”. But some of us will not. He needs to grovel and apologise and ask for our forgiveness
Well for someone who writes for a living I think you are struggling to understand the meaning of lying. Now there is a debate on the ethics of a 2nd referendum which I can see you are slightly on one side of, but that is not lying. That is proposing something you bitterly don't like. Lying is when you say something that is untrue. No wonder you are confused about Boris.
I also note you actually ignored the principle point of my post showing your principle statement was false and attacked the minor (actually quite irrelevant) point I made about Starmer not lying (yet).
Just to reiterate the main point, this forum is full of leavers who want Boris to go (and bizarrely Remainers who want him to stay) as is Parliament, which proves your point that it is bitter remainers is utter nonsense.
I just looked at my phone Photos for November 2020 ... at no stage do any of them look like this. Try it with your photos... if you can find a party with raised glasses you probably were a Tory politician or SPAD .. that's how bad it is https://mobile.twitter.com/paulmasonnews/status/1528835927279288322
I looked, and found pictures of only two people I don’t live with, for the entire month. FWIW.
Its the whole drinking at work culture which surprises me.
I've not seen any alcohol drunk at my workplace for over 20 years or any work sponsored pub lunches for over 10 years.
I thought this was also the general trend throughout the country.
But not it seems in Downing Street.
Considering how often the bars come up in conversations about politics, I'm surprised at your surprise.
Anyway, I've often had alcohol at work, which makes me struggle to get outraged at either Keir or Boris having the same. I feel sorry that some people are so dry, or so lacking in self-control, that they think alcohol and work can't ever mix.
Unless you're driving of course, that's a different matter. Alcohol and driving don't mix, alcohol and work absolutely can.
Don't be ridiculous, as a teacher I would have been sacked for drinking at lunchtime, as well as many factory machinery operators.
You're the one being ridiculous, you would be, but others in different industries would not.
And others in different industries might be sacked for doing something that you wouldn't be sacked for.
Since when do we all have to have the same rules? The same terms and conditions?
As a teacher, don't you think that the fact you're working with children means your conditions might be rather different to those that aren't?
Don't you think the fact someone is working with heavy machinery (whether automobiles or factories) might mean they have different health and safety regulations to those that aren't?
A builder might be sacked if they aren't wearing high vis and a hard hat on the site, does that mean you should be sacked as a teacher if you're not wearing high vis and a hard hat?
I appreciate you raising the idea that there may be different regulations for one thing compared to another thing. And yet you consistently talk about "covid regulations" like they never changed and how something that happened in April 21 under one set of regulations definitely disproves something different that happened in November 20 un der a different set of regulations.
Its that Father Ted moment when he explains to Dougal that some things are small, and other things are far away.
Except that April 2021 regulations for indoor socialising were basically the same as November 2020.
And April 2021 regulations for indoor socialising were exactly the same as April 2021 [the infamous "Prince Philip funeral party"]
April 2021 regulations shouldn't have been so onerous, I was saying that in April 2021, but they were. So that card doesn't work I'm afraid.
I’m not belittling the “crime”, though as scandals go we’ve all seen far worse. And I am sure SW1 bubble-types can still get excited by this, but for the public the flogged horse is not just dead it is entombed
And the fact there is a very similar photo of Starmer, bottle raised, clearly breaking the rules (as Boris broke the rules) makes it all a wash
Boris AND Starmer will survive. Either could be PM in 24
Bones of four hundred councillors lie strewn about its lair. Yes. People care.
Anyone who was going to get all hot and bothered by this is already super-hot and extremely bothered, this won’t suddenly tip over into ultra-galactic white-hot hotness and mega-cosmic botheredness from the constellation Bothered, You Bet. Anyone who was going to switch votes or opinions on the basis of this, has already done so
The ones left frothing, as @DavidL suggests, are Boris-haters, and they are generally embittered Remoaners. They want their revenge; I doubt this will provide it
God, you and Brexit. Just let it go. Boris should go for numerous reasons that are post Brexit. Nobody mentions it anymore except you in the context of getting rid of Boris. Literally nobody at all.
It is absurd to pretend that Boris-hatred isn’t driven, largely (but not always) by Brexit
And Boris-hatred is sustaining this tedious half-arsed scandal about booze-ups during lockdown, which made me angry for a bit in early 2022, but about which I now just can’t be arsed, as they say, especially as Labour have been just as devious and hypocritical
The PM is a lying chancer possibly undermining democracy, Starmer is a boring liar who wanted to cancel democracy with a 2nd referendum
In 2024 we will have to choose between these two unsavoury characters. Hey ho
Nonsense. Just to name a few leavers that immediately come to mind that want to see Boris gone: MarqueeMark, BartholomewRoberts, Casino_Royale, etc, etc. Look at the MPs like Steve Baker. It has nothing whatsoever to do with Brexit.
And the comments about Starmer are just tosh. I am no Starmer fan. I have never ever voted Labour, but there are no grounds to call him a liar (so far )
You are just driven mad by Brexit. God knows why. I am a passionate Remainer, but I accepted it. What is wrong with you; you won. Why can't you accept it.
Starmer is a lying c*** who wanted to overturn the biggest vote in British history, by ignoring it. He literally wanted to demolish democracy by telling all the thick racist Leavers “No, your vote didn’t count, so we’re having another one, until you get it right”
There’s no getting around it. This is what he did. And he was Shadow Secretary for Brexit. I can see why Starmer is desperate for everyone to forget this and “move on”. But some of us will not. He needs to grovel and apologise and ask for our forgiveness
Well for someone who writes for a living I think you are struggling to understand the meaning of lying. Now there is a debate on the ethics of a 2nd referendum which I can see you are slightly on one side of, but that is not lying. That is proposing something you bitterly don't like. Lying is when you say something that is untrue. No wonder you are confused about Boris.
I also note you actually ignored the principle point of my post showing your principle statement was false and attacked the minor (actually quite irrelevant) point I made about Starmer not lying (yet).
Just to reiterate the main point, this forum is full of leavers who want Boris to go (and bizarrely Remainers who want him to stay) as is Parliament, which proves you point is utter nonsense.
Starmer in 2016 said the vote MUST be respected. By 2019 he was saying the vote MUST be disrespected - ie, ignored and set aside and we have a new vote to supersede it
He didn’t just lie, he was the embodiment of a disgusting Trumpite coup that nearly won the day, and which would have shattered our democracy forever, by telling people there literally is no point in voting, as “they” can just ignore it
I just looked at my phone Photos for November 2020 ... at no stage do any of them look like this. Try it with your photos... if you can find a party with raised glasses you probably were a Tory politician or SPAD .. that's how bad it is https://mobile.twitter.com/paulmasonnews/status/1528835927279288322
I looked, and found pictures of only two people I don’t live with, for the entire month. FWIW.
Its the whole drinking at work culture which surprises me.
I've not seen any alcohol drunk at my workplace for over 20 years or any work sponsored pub lunches for over 10 years.
I thought this was also the general trend throughout the country.
But not it seems in Downing Street.
Considering how often the bars come up in conversations about politics, I'm surprised at your surprise.
Anyway, I've often had alcohol at work, which makes me struggle to get outraged at either Keir or Boris having the same. I feel sorry that some people are so dry, or so lacking in self-control, that they think alcohol and work can't ever mix.
Unless you're driving of course, that's a different matter. Alcohol and driving don't mix, alcohol and work absolutely can.
Don't be ridiculous, as a teacher I would have been sacked for drinking at lunchtime, as well as many factory machinery operators.
You're the one being ridiculous, you would be, but others in different industries would not.
And others in different industries might be sacked for doing something that you wouldn't be sacked for.
Since when do we all have to have the same rules? The same terms and conditions?
As a teacher, don't you think that the fact you're working with children means your conditions might be rather different to those that aren't?
Don't you think the fact someone is working with heavy machinery (whether automobiles or factories) might mean they have different health and safety regulations to those that aren't?
A builder might be sacked if they aren't wearing high vis and a hard hat on the site, does that mean you should be sacked as a teacher if you're not wearing high vis and a hard hat?
What are you talking about?
We are talking about drinking at lunchtime.
I think you are dancing on the head of a pin here, trying to defend the indefensible.
Yes drinking at lunchtime is legal. There is no question about that.
Drinking at lunchtime is perfectly legitimate in plenty of industries. There is no question about that.
Pubs are open at lunchtime, precisely because they get customers at lunchtime. Again, no question about that.
Pubs have been reporting they've taken a hit to trade since people stopped commuting to work. Again, no question about that.
So what's your point? If the employer permits drinking at lunchtime, its not against terms and conditions and its not illegal.
What makes you so authoritarian and so dry that you find legally drinking at lunchtime to be "indefensible"?
Tottenham Court Road to Paddington in FIVE minutes
Farringdon to Canary Wharf: ten minutes
Heathrow to anywhere in central London: thirty minutes, 44 minutes to Canary Wharf
Game-changer for a lot of places along the line
19 billion spent on London transport is not going to be a cause of celebration for the rest of the country at a time HS2 and 3 have been either curtailed or cancelled
Er, did I ask anyone to celebrate? I did not
It is, nonetheless, a cause for celebration. For Londoners
Tottenham Court Road to Paddington in FIVE minutes
Farringdon to Canary Wharf: ten minutes
Heathrow to anywhere in central London: thirty minutes, 44 minutes to Canary Wharf
Game-changer for a lot of places along the line
19 billion spent on London transport is not going to be a cause of celebration for the rest of the country at a time HS2 and 3 have been either curtailed or cancelled
To be fair they haven't just signed off the £19bn as they cancel the rest - the money was mostly spent a long long time ago. As a nation we need better transport infrastructure and this is part of that.
But we need to do so much more. Most big transport projects deliver a positive ROI, we need both the infrastructure and the jobs, we should be getting on with it.
Borrow. Invest. Gain a return on the investment. Reinvest bigger and better. Rinse and Repeat. We used to understand this implicitly, what happened to this country where the response from the media / Tories to almost any investment is "who will pay for it"?
I just looked at my phone Photos for November 2020 ... at no stage do any of them look like this. Try it with your photos... if you can find a party with raised glasses you probably were a Tory politician or SPAD .. that's how bad it is https://mobile.twitter.com/paulmasonnews/status/1528835927279288322
I looked, and found pictures of only two people I don’t live with, for the entire month. FWIW.
Its the whole drinking at work culture which surprises me.
I've not seen any alcohol drunk at my workplace for over 20 years or any work sponsored pub lunches for over 10 years.
I thought this was also the general trend throughout the country.
But not it seems in Downing Street.
Considering how often the bars come up in conversations about politics, I'm surprised at your surprise.
Anyway, I've often had alcohol at work, which makes me struggle to get outraged at either Keir or Boris having the same. I feel sorry that some people are so dry, or so lacking in self-control, that they think alcohol and work can't ever mix.
Unless you're driving of course, that's a different matter. Alcohol and driving don't mix, alcohol and work absolutely can.
Don't be ridiculous, as a teacher I would have been sacked for drinking at lunchtime, as well as many factory machinery operators.
You're the one being ridiculous, you would be, but others in different industries would not.
And others in different industries might be sacked for doing something that you wouldn't be sacked for.
Since when do we all have to have the same rules? The same terms and conditions?
As a teacher, don't you think that the fact you're working with children means your conditions might be rather different to those that aren't?
Don't you think the fact someone is working with heavy machinery (whether automobiles or factories) might mean they have different health and safety regulations to those that aren't?
A builder might be sacked if they aren't wearing high vis and a hard hat on the site, does that mean you should be sacked as a teacher if you're not wearing high vis and a hard hat?
I appreciate you raising the idea that there may be different regulations for one thing compared to another thing. And yet you consistently talk about "covid regulations" like they never changed and how something that happened in April 21 under one set of regulations definitely disproves something different that happened in November 20 un der a different set of regulations.
Its that Father Ted moment when he explains to Dougal that some things are small, and other things are far away.
Except that April 2021 regulations for indoor socialising were basically the same as November 2020.
And April 2021 regulations for indoor socialising were exactly the same as April 2021 [the infamous "Prince Philip funeral party"]
April 2021 regulations shouldn't have been so onerous, I was saying that in April 2021, but they were. So that card doesn't work I'm afraid.
"Basically"
What you're saying is "not the same". Which is the point in your opinion the two sets of rules may have "basically" been the same and "see, see, there was ALCOHOL" is the smoking gun, but nobody is saying the same.
Literally nobody. Not even Desmond Swayne. And yet you foam on and on and on like you are right and everyone else is both wrong and stupid.
I just looked at my phone Photos for November 2020 ... at no stage do any of them look like this. Try it with your photos... if you can find a party with raised glasses you probably were a Tory politician or SPAD .. that's how bad it is https://mobile.twitter.com/paulmasonnews/status/1528835927279288322
I looked, and found pictures of only two people I don’t live with, for the entire month. FWIW.
Its the whole drinking at work culture which surprises me.
I've not seen any alcohol drunk at my workplace for over 20 years or any work sponsored pub lunches for over 10 years.
I thought this was also the general trend throughout the country.
But not it seems in Downing Street.
Downing Street is a totally different scenario to 99% of workplaces. It is virtually 24/7 and work blends into play which blends into the family life, of the occupants: they all intertwine. This is not some hideous innovation by BoJo and Carrie, if you read Bad Al Campbell’s excellent diaries of the Blair years, the same thing happened then
You get scenes where at 7am Al bursts in on Blair who is naked from the shower but they carry on talking about political issues anyway, and making decisions, then in the evening on busy days (and Covid in 2020 must have made them incredibly busy) the booze comes out at 8pm even as they carry on toiling, gossiping, eating takeaway
Judging by those diaries Number 10 and 11 are fun places to work IF you can tolerate long and intense hours and sometimes do all nighters, the upside of the hard yakka is that its all extremely interesting, and you can get drunk at your desk from time to time
Now it is highly arguable this culture should have stopped for Covid, but I can see why it didn’t, and why Partygate (and Kormagate) occurred
I get the impression that the booze has been coming out a lot earlier than 8pm.
In fact I get the impression that the booze is always out.
This might be deemed acceptable in Downing Street but it seems they don't even have the sense to not send emails encouraging it or not get their mobiles out to provide evidence of it.
Churchill STARTED the day at Number 10 with a neat whisky. He called it his “mouthwash”
It is remarkable to think that we won WW2 with a PM who was half cut virtually all the time
I just looked at my phone Photos for November 2020 ... at no stage do any of them look like this. Try it with your photos... if you can find a party with raised glasses you probably were a Tory politician or SPAD .. that's how bad it is https://mobile.twitter.com/paulmasonnews/status/1528835927279288322
I looked, and found pictures of only two people I don’t live with, for the entire month. FWIW.
Its the whole drinking at work culture which surprises me.
I've not seen any alcohol drunk at my workplace for over 20 years or any work sponsored pub lunches for over 10 years.
I thought this was also the general trend throughout the country.
But not it seems in Downing Street.
Considering how often the bars come up in conversations about politics, I'm surprised at your surprise.
Anyway, I've often had alcohol at work, which makes me struggle to get outraged at either Keir or Boris having the same. I feel sorry that some people are so dry, or so lacking in self-control, that they think alcohol and work can't ever mix.
Unless you're driving of course, that's a different matter. Alcohol and driving don't mix, alcohol and work absolutely can.
The Westminster bars I can understand - the late night sittings, the endless visitors to be entertained, the blokeish atmosphere, the home-away-from-home eating and drinking.
But the drinking while in the office should never have been acceptable and in my experience work sponsored pub and restaurant outings have faded away to leave only the Christmas evening meal remaining (and we've not had those for the last two years because of covid).
But you and others making this argument are guilty of a category error. Politics at a high level - like PM of the UK - just never stops. This is increasingly true with social media and 24/7 news, but it has been true for many decades
Consider the multiple movies and dramas made about Churchill during the Blitz. There are scenes where he is naked in his bath sucking on a cigar and drinking whisky, even as he gives orders to underlings and a Secretary writes down his next speech
Why? Because the work never stopped, so it all blended together. Churchill needed a bath and a cigar and some scotch to relax, but Britain was in a terrible war so the decisions and dilemmas came at him, hourly, and he could not stop entirely
Perhaps a special constable should have marched in and taken the whisky and cigar away and said “You’re not allowed this, Winston, just do your job”?
And of course Number 10 during peak Covid - November-March 2020-21 must have felt like a wartime government
FWIW I agree with @mwadams and Boris’ real sin was lying about this to the Commons. He should have just made my argument. Yes, we drank, because life and work was all of a piece in that terrible time
I think there's a difference between, for example, Thatcher who was a heavy drinker but was always working and on top of the details compared with the current situation where it appears the 'fun' is much more prominent and there's a general slovenly attitude to getting work done.
I just looked at my phone Photos for November 2020 ... at no stage do any of them look like this. Try it with your photos... if you can find a party with raised glasses you probably were a Tory politician or SPAD .. that's how bad it is https://mobile.twitter.com/paulmasonnews/status/1528835927279288322
I looked, and found pictures of only two people I don’t live with, for the entire month. FWIW.
Its the whole drinking at work culture which surprises me.
I've not seen any alcohol drunk at my workplace for over 20 years or any work sponsored pub lunches for over 10 years.
I thought this was also the general trend throughout the country.
But not it seems in Downing Street.
Considering how often the bars come up in conversations about politics, I'm surprised at your surprise.
Anyway, I've often had alcohol at work, which makes me struggle to get outraged at either Keir or Boris having the same. I feel sorry that some people are so dry, or so lacking in self-control, that they think alcohol and work can't ever mix.
Unless you're driving of course, that's a different matter. Alcohol and driving don't mix, alcohol and work absolutely can.
Teaching? Surgery? I can think of plenty of others.
Oh certainly there are plenty where it doesn't mix, but that doesn't mean it can't mix for any.
Pubs are open at lunchtime for a reason. They have customers who come in at lunchtime, and yes many of them are people who are on their lunch break. Often, organised lunches at the pub.
I hope for our sake as a nation, that never changes.
Liquid lunches disappeared from construction sites before offices, iirc.
I just looked at my phone Photos for November 2020 ... at no stage do any of them look like this. Try it with your photos... if you can find a party with raised glasses you probably were a Tory politician or SPAD .. that's how bad it is https://mobile.twitter.com/paulmasonnews/status/1528835927279288322
I looked, and found pictures of only two people I don’t live with, for the entire month. FWIW.
Its the whole drinking at work culture which surprises me.
I've not seen any alcohol drunk at my workplace for over 20 years or any work sponsored pub lunches for over 10 years.
I thought this was also the general trend throughout the country.
But not it seems in Downing Street.
Considering how often the bars come up in conversations about politics, I'm surprised at your surprise.
Anyway, I've often had alcohol at work, which makes me struggle to get outraged at either Keir or Boris having the same. I feel sorry that some people are so dry, or so lacking in self-control, that they think alcohol and work can't ever mix.
Unless you're driving of course, that's a different matter. Alcohol and driving don't mix, alcohol and work absolutely can.
The Westminster bars I can understand - the late night sittings, the endless visitors to be entertained, the blokeish atmosphere, the home-away-from-home eating and drinking.
But the drinking while in the office should never have been acceptable and in my experience work sponsored pub and restaurant outings have faded away to leave only the Christmas evening meal remaining (and we've not had those for the last two years because of covid).
But you and others making this argument are guilty of a category error. Politics at a high level - like PM of the UK - just never stops. This is increasingly true with social media and 24/7 news, but it has been true for many decades
Consider the multiple movies and dramas made about Churchill during the Blitz. There are scenes where he is naked in his bath sucking on a cigar and drinking whisky, even as he gives orders to underlings and a Secretary writes down his next speech
Why? Because the work never stopped, so it all blended together. Churchill needed a bath and a cigar and some scotch to relax, but Britain was in a terrible war so the decisions and dilemmas came at him, hourly, and he could not stop entirely
Perhaps a special constable should have marched in and taken the whisky and cigar away and said “You’re not allowed this, Winston, just do your job”?
And of course Number 10 during peak Covid - November-March 2020-21 must have felt like a wartime government
FWIW I agree with @mwadams and Boris’ real sin was lying about this to the Commons. He should have just made my argument. Yes, we drank, because life and work was all of a piece in that terrible time
I think there's a difference between, for example, Thatcher who was a heavy drinker but was always working and on top of the details compared with the current situation where it appears the 'fun' is much more prominent and there's a general slovenly attitude to getting work done.
Maggie was a heavy drinker? Really? That does surprise me considering her Methodist background, only five hours sleep a night etc.
Starmer is a lying c*** who wanted to overturn the biggest vote in British history, by ignoring it. He literally wanted to demolish democracy by telling all the thick racist Leavers “No, your vote didn’t count, so we’re having another one, until you get it right”
There’s no getting around it. This is what he did. And he was Shadow Secretary for Brexit. I can see why Starmer is desperate for everyone to forget this and “move on”. But some of us will not. He needs to grovel and apologise and ask for our forgiveness
Politician attempts peaceful change of policy in a democracy shocker.
Acting Head of Met's next appearance in front of the Assembly is going to be box office.
So many oddities and unanswered questions wrt the investigation into Downing Street piss-ups.
Starting with “Who decided that this was a good use of half a million quid of public funds?”
The half a million pounds cost of Operation Hillman is just an accounting fiction. The police were being paid anyway. The only marginal cost would be postage on a hundred questionnaires, assuming they did not use email.
I’m not belittling the “crime”, though as scandals go we’ve all seen far worse. And I am sure SW1 bubble-types can still get excited by this, but for the public the flogged horse is not just dead it is entombed
And the fact there is a very similar photo of Starmer, bottle raised, clearly breaking the rules (as Boris broke the rules) makes it all a wash
Boris AND Starmer will survive. Either could be PM in 24
Bones of four hundred councillors lie strewn about its lair. Yes. People care.
Anyone who was going to get all hot and bothered by this is already super-hot and extremely bothered, this won’t suddenly tip over into ultra-galactic white-hot hotness and mega-cosmic botheredness from the constellation Bothered, You Bet. Anyone who was going to switch votes or opinions on the basis of this, has already done so
The ones left frothing, as @DavidL suggests, are Boris-haters, and they are generally embittered Remoaners. They want their revenge; I doubt this will provide it
God, you and Brexit. Just let it go. Boris should go for numerous reasons that are post Brexit. Nobody mentions it anymore except you in the context of getting rid of Boris. Literally nobody at all.
It is absurd to pretend that Boris-hatred isn’t driven, largely (but not always) by Brexit
And Boris-hatred is sustaining this tedious half-arsed scandal about booze-ups during lockdown, which made me angry for a bit in early 2022, but about which I now just can’t be arsed, as they say, especially as Labour have been just as devious and hypocritical
The PM is a lying chancer possibly undermining democracy, Starmer is a boring liar who wanted to cancel democracy with a 2nd referendum
In 2024 we will have to choose between these two unsavoury characters. Hey ho
Nonsense. Just to name a few leavers that immediately come to mind that want to see Boris gone: MarqueeMark, BartholomewRoberts, Casino_Royale, etc, etc. Look at the MPs like Steve Baker. It has nothing whatsoever to do with Brexit.
And the comments about Starmer are just tosh. I am no Starmer fan. I have never ever voted Labour, but there are no grounds to call him a liar (so far )
You are just driven mad by Brexit. God knows why. I am a passionate Remainer, but I accepted it. What is wrong with you; you won. Why can't you accept it.
Starmer is a lying c*** who wanted to overturn the biggest vote in British history, by ignoring it. He literally wanted to demolish democracy by telling all the thick racist Leavers “No, your vote didn’t count, so we’re having another one, until you get it right”
There’s no getting around it. This is what he did. And he was Shadow Secretary for Brexit. I can see why Starmer is desperate for everyone to forget this and “move on”. But some of us will not. He needs to grovel and apologise and ask for our forgiveness
Well for someone who writes for a living I think you are struggling to understand the meaning of lying. Now there is a debate on the ethics of a 2nd referendum which I can see you are slightly on one side of, but that is not lying. That is proposing something you bitterly don't like. Lying is when you say something that is untrue. No wonder you are confused about Boris.
I also note you actually ignored the principle point of my post showing your principle statement was false and attacked the minor (actually quite irrelevant) point I made about Starmer not lying (yet).
Just to reiterate the main point, this forum is full of leavers who want Boris to go (and bizarrely Remainers who want him to stay) as is Parliament, which proves you point is utter nonsense.
Starmer in 2016 said the vote MUST be respected. By 2019 he was saying the vote MUST be disrespected - ie, ignored and set aside and we have a new vote to supersede it
He didn’t just lie, he was the embodiment of a disgusting Trumpite coup that nearly won the day, and which would have shattered our democracy forever, by telling people there literally is no point in voting, as “they” can just ignore it
And now, I’m having some tea. Kalimera
You do know there was a general election in 2017? In the 2015 parliament which held the (advisory) referendum there was no real debate that they just take it under advisement. It would be enacted.
And then we had an election. And that parliament can do whatever the hell it likes. This parliament isn't just free to overturn anything it likes from any other previous parliament including 2017 and 2015, they are overturning manifesto pledge laws passed a couple of years ago in this parliament.
Is Johnson putting laws to parliament to overturn chunks of the core of the manifesto "oven-ready deal" also a "disgusting Trumpite coup"?
I just looked at my phone Photos for November 2020 ... at no stage do any of them look like this. Try it with your photos... if you can find a party with raised glasses you probably were a Tory politician or SPAD .. that's how bad it is https://mobile.twitter.com/paulmasonnews/status/1528835927279288322
I looked, and found pictures of only two people I don’t live with, for the entire month. FWIW.
Its the whole drinking at work culture which surprises me.
I've not seen any alcohol drunk at my workplace for over 20 years or any work sponsored pub lunches for over 10 years.
I thought this was also the general trend throughout the country.
But not it seems in Downing Street.
Considering how often the bars come up in conversations about politics, I'm surprised at your surprise.
Anyway, I've often had alcohol at work, which makes me struggle to get outraged at either Keir or Boris having the same. I feel sorry that some people are so dry, or so lacking in self-control, that they think alcohol and work can't ever mix.
Unless you're driving of course, that's a different matter. Alcohol and driving don't mix, alcohol and work absolutely can.
The Westminster bars I can understand - the late night sittings, the endless visitors to be entertained, the blokeish atmosphere, the home-away-from-home eating and drinking.
But the drinking while in the office should never have been acceptable and in my experience work sponsored pub and restaurant outings have faded away to leave only the Christmas evening meal remaining (and we've not had those for the last two years because of covid).
But you and others making this argument are guilty of a category error. Politics at a high level - like PM of the UK - just never stops. This is increasingly true with social media and 24/7 news, but it has been true for many decades
Consider the multiple movies and dramas made about Churchill during the Blitz. There are scenes where he is naked in his bath sucking on a cigar and drinking whisky, even as he gives orders to underlings and a Secretary writes down his next speech
Why? Because the work never stopped, so it all blended together. Churchill needed a bath and a cigar and some scotch to relax, but Britain was in a terrible war so the decisions and dilemmas came at him, hourly, and he could not stop entirely
Perhaps a special constable should have marched in and taken the whisky and cigar away and said “You’re not allowed this, Winston, just do your job”?
And of course Number 10 during peak Covid - November-March 2020-21 must have felt like a wartime government
FWIW I agree with @mwadams and Boris’ real sin was lying about this to the Commons. He should have just made my argument. Yes, we drank, because life and work was all of a piece in that terrible time
I think there's a difference between, for example, Thatcher who was a heavy drinker but was always working and on top of the details compared with the current situation where it appears the 'fun' is much more prominent and there's a general slovenly attitude to getting work done.
I’m not sure that’s true. Alcohol has always been closely interwoven with Westminster (perhaps too much, but that’s not my argument)
i can remember when Chancellors would delivery a budget with a tumbler of scotch at the side, in the House, and this was reported as if it was all perfectly normal. I imagine this has now stopped?! But the booze has always been there.
If anything we probably just notice it more because we live in a more censorious and puritan age (outside the home of Boris Johnson)
Former Senator David Perdue ended his campaign for governor of Georgia with a racist appeal to Republican primary voters on Monday, accusing Stacey Abrams, the presumptive Democratic nominee, of “demeaning her own race.” https://twitter.com/nytimes/status/1528873446255599617
The truly disgraceful thing is the number of voters who are prepared to support him.
Yep I sat with two people yesterday one of whom has completely turned against Johnson but the other is still in love with him. Two of us were trying to persuade her of a thousand reasons why Boris Johnson is unfit for the office of PM but she still continues to "like Boris".
She's not a graduate and I throw that into the mix with caution because, despite occasionally suggesting otherwise, I don't really like that supercilious 'we know best' attitude. But I think it's pertinent because there's no doubt that Boris is continuing to draw support from non-graduates and those who have failed as yet to see through the magician's sleight of hand. Oh dear, I've just been supercilious. It's hard so don't get angry BR & Co.
It genuinely baffles me how anyone can still support him. And I'd have a lot more respect for the Conservatives if they had not just the bottle but the integrity to remove him.
I often wonder the same about serial philanderers who still manage to convince the next woman that this time they will be faithful. I think some people just really want to believe in Boris because he is, in some way that the rest of us just don't see, charming to a large portion of the population.
I also think there is another sizeable chunk who have no love for the man but see him as a vehicle for their partisan agenda so are happy to overlook the character flaws so long as he is [delivering Brexit; insulting the French; keeping out the migrants]. Unfortunately for him that pragmatic group doesn't now include: cutting taxes; keeping out Corbyn; levelling up; or for that matter "delivering Brexit".
Well indeed I think Boris should be forced out and have said so for about 7 months now but that for me is because he raised taxes and that was a deal-breaker. Had he not done that, I'd be happy for him to stay on, but he did and that's a breach of trust I can't accept.
I think the brouhaha over your guy was drinking alcohol because he's a party animal, my guy was drinking alcohol because he's hard at work campaigning is stupid, hypocritical asinine bullshit that has dominated the public conversation far too much but that doesn't change the fact that Boris should go because he raised taxes.
Everyone has their own red lines and that was my one.
Your red line? Yes. The legal red line? No. Anyone else's red line? Don't be silly.
Yet this is this week's straw man that you have decided will batter all other arguments and posters into submission. Erm, no.
PS I'm not the only poster aggrieved about the taxes issue. I could name at least half a dozen other right-wing economically former Conservative voters who think the same on that, so its hardly unique even if it isn't sufficient on its own.
No you're not, it's true.
However, conflating that with the partying is rather disingenuous. Putting up taxes may piss you off but it doesn't break the law.
It's slightly disturbing that you don't seem to understand the difference.
The Metropolitan Police seem to think that him raising a glass of alcohol at work didn't break the law either, and I expect that Durham Police will find the same thing about his opposite number, so its you that doesn't understand the difference it seems.
Some people are saying its outrageous that the Metropolitan Police didn't fine him for this (and no doubt will find it outrageous if Durham Police do fine their guy) and are saying the Met got it wrong. The Met getting it wrong is certainly possible, they're far from infallible, but if that's the card you want to play then I will say they got it wrong issuing a fine for having cake at work at 1pm. Again, what's sauce for the goose . . . 🤷♂️
I said before the start of this that Boris should go and at the start of this if Boris broke the law its another reason he should go. Since the only fine is for cake, and I think the fine for cake was unreasonable, I don't think "partygate" is a reason for Boris to go. He should still go over taxes though.
The Met issued fines to people at this event. So the event was not legal. So why are you repeating the Peter Bone line that it was legal? You aren't dumb like Peter Bone...
If someone breaks the law at an event, that does not make the event illegal, it means the Police judged the actions of whoever got fined were illegal.
If you and thousands of others go to a concert, but one person who goes to the concert is caught taking or supply drugs by the Police and that individual is fined, then does that make the concert itself an illegal event? No, don't be ridiculous.
Unless we get told why the person who got fined was fined, we don't know what they were fined for, so all we know for certain is the Police believe that they broke the law in some way, not that the event itself was unlawful.
Could yoy upload an mp3 of the sound of one hand clapping? That would clarify things.
Here you go, from when right-on comedians didn't care about "cultural appropriation" it seems, which it seems was only nine years ago.
I’m not belittling the “crime”, though as scandals go we’ve all seen far worse. And I am sure SW1 bubble-types can still get excited by this, but for the public the flogged horse is not just dead it is entombed
And the fact there is a very similar photo of Starmer, bottle raised, clearly breaking the rules (as Boris broke the rules) makes it all a wash
Boris AND Starmer will survive. Either could be PM in 24
Bones of four hundred councillors lie strewn about its lair. Yes. People care.
Anyone who was going to get all hot and bothered by this is already super-hot and extremely bothered, this won’t suddenly tip over into ultra-galactic white-hot hotness and mega-cosmic botheredness from the constellation Bothered, You Bet. Anyone who was going to switch votes or opinions on the basis of this, has already done so
The ones left frothing, as @DavidL suggests, are Boris-haters, and they are generally embittered Remoaners. They want their revenge; I doubt this will provide it
God, you and Brexit. Just let it go. Boris should go for numerous reasons that are post Brexit. Nobody mentions it anymore except you in the context of getting rid of Boris. Literally nobody at all.
It is absurd to pretend that Boris-hatred isn’t driven, largely (but not always) by Brexit
And Boris-hatred is sustaining this tedious half-arsed scandal about booze-ups during lockdown, which made me angry for a bit in early 2022, but about which I now just can’t be arsed, as they say, especially as Labour have been just as devious and hypocritical
The PM is a lying chancer possibly undermining democracy, Starmer is a boring liar who wanted to cancel democracy with a 2nd referendum
In 2024 we will have to choose between these two unsavoury characters. Hey ho
Nonsense. Just to name a few leavers that immediately come to mind that want to see Boris gone: MarqueeMark, BartholomewRoberts, Casino_Royale, etc, etc. Look at the MPs like Steve Baker. It has nothing whatsoever to do with Brexit.
And the comments about Starmer are just tosh. I am no Starmer fan. I have never ever voted Labour, but there are no grounds to call him a liar (so far )
You are just driven mad by Brexit. God knows why. I am a passionate Remainer, but I accepted it. What is wrong with you; you won. Why can't you accept it.
Starmer is a lying c*** who wanted to overturn the biggest vote in British history, by ignoring it. He literally wanted to demolish democracy by telling all the thick racist Leavers “No, your vote didn’t count, so we’re having another one, until you get it right”
There’s no getting around it. This is what he did. And he was Shadow Secretary for Brexit. I can see why Starmer is desperate for everyone to forget this and “move on”. But some of us will not. He needs to grovel and apologise and ask for our forgiveness
Well for someone who writes for a living I think you are struggling to understand the meaning of lying. Now there is a debate on the ethics of a 2nd referendum which I can see you are slightly on one side of, but that is not lying. That is proposing something you bitterly don't like. Lying is when you say something that is untrue. No wonder you are confused about Boris.
I also note you actually ignored the principle point of my post showing your principle statement was false and attacked the minor (actually quite irrelevant) point I made about Starmer not lying (yet).
Just to reiterate the main point, this forum is full of leavers who want Boris to go (and bizarrely Remainers who want him to stay) as is Parliament, which proves you point is utter nonsense.
Starmer in 2016 said the vote MUST be respected. By 2019 he was saying the vote MUST be disrespected - ie, ignored and set aside and we have a new vote to supersede it
He didn’t just lie, he was the embodiment of a disgusting Trumpite coup that nearly won the day, and which would have shattered our democracy forever, by telling people there literally is no point in voting, as “they” can just ignore it
And now, I’m having some tea. Kalimera
A politician who changes his policy. I have never come across that before. I'm shocked. Still don't understand the meaning of the word lie.
Boris (per @Cyclefree) could be said to have a legitimate reason for being at the event as it was a "leaving do" and that is something a PM is expected to attend.
However, someone was (apparently) fined for being there. This suggests the police thought it was a party.
So the waffer thin line Boris is treading is that he thought it was a leaving do while actually it was a party. Which begs the question of why couldn't everyone use that excuse. Perhaps it was the organiser who was fined. You organised this and it was a party but everyone else thought it was a leaving do.
As @BartholomewRoberts says, the alcohol is irrelevant, save perhaps for helping to convince the police that it was a party after all.
I think it is sufficiently murky for there to be no gotcha moment.
It's a complete minority thing. You can argue it's legitimate or not, but the point is, it's not something people do regularly.
So 30% would drink at one.
Are you saying that minorities are illegitimate? Should we purge minorities from society? Should Parliament not have minorities within it? If Downing Street is representative of minorities is that a problem?
Former Senator David Perdue ended his campaign for governor of Georgia with a racist appeal to Republican primary voters on Monday, accusing Stacey Abrams, the presumptive Democratic nominee, of “demeaning her own race.” https://twitter.com/nytimes/status/1528873446255599617
The truly disgraceful thing is the number of voters who are prepared to support him.
Yep I sat with two people yesterday one of whom has completely turned against Johnson but the other is still in love with him. Two of us were trying to persuade her of a thousand reasons why Boris Johnson is unfit for the office of PM but she still continues to "like Boris".
She's not a graduate and I throw that into the mix with caution because, despite occasionally suggesting otherwise, I don't really like that supercilious 'we know best' attitude. But I think it's pertinent because there's no doubt that Boris is continuing to draw support from non-graduates and those who have failed as yet to see through the magician's sleight of hand. Oh dear, I've just been supercilious. It's hard so don't get angry BR & Co.
It genuinely baffles me how anyone can still support him. And I'd have a lot more respect for the Conservatives if they had not just the bottle but the integrity to remove him.
I often wonder the same about serial philanderers who still manage to convince the next woman that this time they will be faithful. I think some people just really want to believe in Boris because he is, in some way that the rest of us just don't see, charming to a large portion of the population.
I also think there is another sizeable chunk who have no love for the man but see him as a vehicle for their partisan agenda so are happy to overlook the character flaws so long as he is [delivering Brexit; insulting the French; keeping out the migrants]. Unfortunately for him that pragmatic group doesn't now include: cutting taxes; keeping out Corbyn; levelling up; or for that matter "delivering Brexit".
Well indeed I think Boris should be forced out and have said so for about 7 months now but that for me is because he raised taxes and that was a deal-breaker. Had he not done that, I'd be happy for him to stay on, but he did and that's a breach of trust I can't accept.
I think the brouhaha over your guy was drinking alcohol because he's a party animal, my guy was drinking alcohol because he's hard at work campaigning is stupid, hypocritical asinine bullshit that has dominated the public conversation far too much but that doesn't change the fact that Boris should go because he raised taxes.
Everyone has their own red lines and that was my one.
Your red line? Yes. The legal red line? No. Anyone else's red line? Don't be silly.
Yet this is this week's straw man that you have decided will batter all other arguments and posters into submission. Erm, no.
PS I'm not the only poster aggrieved about the taxes issue. I could name at least half a dozen other right-wing economically former Conservative voters who think the same on that, so its hardly unique even if it isn't sufficient on its own.
No you're not, it's true.
However, conflating that with the partying is rather disingenuous. Putting up taxes may piss you off but it doesn't break the law.
It's slightly disturbing that you don't seem to understand the difference.
The Metropolitan Police seem to think that him raising a glass of alcohol at work didn't break the law either, and I expect that Durham Police will find the same thing about his opposite number, so its you that doesn't understand the difference it seems.
Some people are saying its outrageous that the Metropolitan Police didn't fine him for this (and no doubt will find it outrageous if Durham Police do fine their guy) and are saying the Met got it wrong. The Met getting it wrong is certainly possible, they're far from infallible, but if that's the card you want to play then I will say they got it wrong issuing a fine for having cake at work at 1pm. Again, what's sauce for the goose . . . 🤷♂️
I said before the start of this that Boris should go and at the start of this if Boris broke the law its another reason he should go. Since the only fine is for cake, and I think the fine for cake was unreasonable, I don't think "partygate" is a reason for Boris to go. He should still go over taxes though.
The Met issued fines to people at this event. So the event was not legal. So why are you repeating the Peter Bone line that it was legal? You aren't dumb like Peter Bone...
If someone breaks the law at an event, that does not make the event illegal, it means the Police judged the actions of whoever got fined were illegal.
If you and thousands of others go to a concert, but one person who goes to the concert is caught taking or supply drugs by the Police and that individual is fined, then does that make the concert itself an illegal event? No, don't be ridiculous.
Unless we get told why the person who got fined was fined, we don't know what they were fined for, so all we know for certain is the Police believe that they broke the law in some way, not that the event itself was unlawful.
Could yoy upload an mp3 of the sound of one hand clapping? That would clarify things.
Here you go, from when right-on comedians didn't care about "cultural appropriation" it seems, which it seems was only nine years ago.
It's a complete minority thing. You can argue it's legitimate or not, but the point is, it's not something people do regularly.
So 30% would drink at one.
Are you saying that minorities are illegitimate? Should we purge minorities from society? Should Parliament not have minorities within it? If Downing Street is representative of minorities is that a problem?
I’m not belittling the “crime”, though as scandals go we’ve all seen far worse. And I am sure SW1 bubble-types can still get excited by this, but for the public the flogged horse is not just dead it is entombed
And the fact there is a very similar photo of Starmer, bottle raised, clearly breaking the rules (as Boris broke the rules) makes it all a wash
Boris AND Starmer will survive. Either could be PM in 24
Bones of four hundred councillors lie strewn about its lair. Yes. People care.
Anyone who was going to get all hot and bothered by this is already super-hot and extremely bothered, this won’t suddenly tip over into ultra-galactic white-hot hotness and mega-cosmic botheredness from the constellation Bothered, You Bet. Anyone who was going to switch votes or opinions on the basis of this, has already done so
The ones left frothing, as @DavidL suggests, are Boris-haters, and they are generally embittered Remoaners. They want their revenge; I doubt this will provide it
God, you and Brexit. Just let it go. Boris should go for numerous reasons that are post Brexit. Nobody mentions it anymore except you in the context of getting rid of Boris. Literally nobody at all.
It is absurd to pretend that Boris-hatred isn’t driven, largely (but not always) by Brexit
And Boris-hatred is sustaining this tedious half-arsed scandal about booze-ups during lockdown, which made me angry for a bit in early 2022, but about which I now just can’t be arsed, as they say, especially as Labour have been just as devious and hypocritical
The PM is a lying chancer possibly undermining democracy, Starmer is a boring liar who wanted to cancel democracy with a 2nd referendum
In 2024 we will have to choose between these two unsavoury characters. Hey ho
Nonsense. Just to name a few leavers that immediately come to mind that want to see Boris gone: MarqueeMark, BartholomewRoberts, Casino_Royale, etc, etc. Look at the MPs like Steve Baker. It has nothing whatsoever to do with Brexit.
And the comments about Starmer are just tosh. I am no Starmer fan. I have never ever voted Labour, but there are no grounds to call him a liar (so far )
You are just driven mad by Brexit. God knows why. I am a passionate Remainer, but I accepted it. What is wrong with you; you won. Why can't you accept it.
Starmer is a lying c*** who wanted to overturn the biggest vote in British history, by ignoring it. He literally wanted to demolish democracy by telling all the thick racist Leavers “No, your vote didn’t count, so we’re having another one, until you get it right”
There’s no getting around it. This is what he did. And he was Shadow Secretary for Brexit. I can see why Starmer is desperate for everyone to forget this and “move on”. But some of us will not. He needs to grovel and apologise and ask for our forgiveness
Well for someone who writes for a living I think you are struggling to understand the meaning of lying. Now there is a debate on the ethics of a 2nd referendum which I can see you are slightly on one side of, but that is not lying. That is proposing something you bitterly don't like. Lying is when you say something that is untrue. No wonder you are confused about Boris.
I also note you actually ignored the principle point of my post showing your principle statement was false and attacked the minor (actually quite irrelevant) point I made about Starmer not lying (yet).
Just to reiterate the main point, this forum is full of leavers who want Boris to go (and bizarrely Remainers who want him to stay) as is Parliament, which proves you point is utter nonsense.
Starmer in 2016 said the vote MUST be respected. By 2019 he was saying the vote MUST be disrespected - ie, ignored and set aside and we have a new vote to supersede it
He didn’t just lie, he was the embodiment of a disgusting Trumpite coup that nearly won the day, and which would have shattered our democracy forever, by telling people there literally is no point in voting, as “they” can just ignore it
And now, I’m having some tea. Kalimera
You do know there was a general election in 2017? In the 2015 parliament which held the (advisory) referendum there was no real debate that they just take it under advisement. It would be enacted.
And then we had an election. And that parliament can do whatever the hell it likes. This parliament isn't just free to overturn anything it likes from any other previous parliament including 2017 and 2015, they are overturning manifesto pledge laws passed a couple of years ago in this parliament.
Is Johnson putting laws to parliament to overturn chunks of the core of the manifesto "oven-ready deal" also a "disgusting Trumpite coup"?
In no sense was the vote “advisory”. Anyone trying to use the word “advisory” as a way of justifying their anti-democratic 2nd vote c*ntishness should be thrown in the sewer
Prime Minister David Cameron, speaking to the British people, from Chatham House, in 2015
'Ultimately it will be the judgment of the British people in the referendum... You will have to judge what is best for you and your family, for your children and grandchildren, for our country, for our future. It will be your decision whether to remain in the EU on the basis of the reforms we secure, or whether we leave. Your decision. Nobody else’s. Not politicians’. Not Parliament’s. Not lobby groups’. Not mine. Just you. You, the British people, will decide. At that moment, you will hold this country’s destiny in your hands. This is a huge decision for our country, perhaps the biggest we will make in our lifetimes. And it will be the final decision.'
Cameron goes on to say this:
'So to those who suggest that a decision in the referendum to leave would merely produce another stronger renegotiation, and then a second referendum in which Britain would stay, I say: think again. The renegotiation is happening right now. And the referendum that follows will be a once in a generation choice. An in or out referendum. When the British people speak, their voice will be respected – not ignored. If we vote to leave, then we will leave. There will not be another renegotiation and another referendum.'
I just looked at my phone Photos for November 2020 ... at no stage do any of them look like this. Try it with your photos... if you can find a party with raised glasses you probably were a Tory politician or SPAD .. that's how bad it is https://mobile.twitter.com/paulmasonnews/status/1528835927279288322
I looked, and found pictures of only two people I don’t live with, for the entire month. FWIW.
Its the whole drinking at work culture which surprises me.
I've not seen any alcohol drunk at my workplace for over 20 years or any work sponsored pub lunches for over 10 years.
I thought this was also the general trend throughout the country.
But not it seems in Downing Street.
Considering how often the bars come up in conversations about politics, I'm surprised at your surprise.
Anyway, I've often had alcohol at work, which makes me struggle to get outraged at either Keir or Boris having the same. I feel sorry that some people are so dry, or so lacking in self-control, that they think alcohol and work can't ever mix.
Unless you're driving of course, that's a different matter. Alcohol and driving don't mix, alcohol and work absolutely can.
The Westminster bars I can understand - the late night sittings, the endless visitors to be entertained, the blokeish atmosphere, the home-away-from-home eating and drinking.
But the drinking while in the office should never have been acceptable and in my experience work sponsored pub and restaurant outings have faded away to leave only the Christmas evening meal remaining (and we've not had those for the last two years because of covid).
But you and others making this argument are guilty of a category error. Politics at a high level - like PM of the UK - just never stops. This is increasingly true with social media and 24/7 news, but it has been true for many decades
Consider the multiple movies and dramas made about Churchill during the Blitz. There are scenes where he is naked in his bath sucking on a cigar and drinking whisky, even as he gives orders to underlings and a Secretary writes down his next speech
Why? Because the work never stopped, so it all blended together. Churchill needed a bath and a cigar and some scotch to relax, but Britain was in a terrible war so the decisions and dilemmas came at him, hourly, and he could not stop entirely
Perhaps a special constable should have marched in and taken the whisky and cigar away and said “You’re not allowed this, Winston, just do your job”?
And of course Number 10 during peak Covid - November-March 2020-21 must have felt like a wartime government
FWIW I agree with @mwadams and Boris’ real sin was lying about this to the Commons. He should have just made my argument. Yes, we drank, because life and work was all of a piece in that terrible time
I think there's a difference between, for example, Thatcher who was a heavy drinker but was always working and on top of the details compared with the current situation where it appears the 'fun' is much more prominent and there's a general slovenly attitude to getting work done.
I’m not sure that’s true. Alcohol has always been closely interwoven with Westminster (perhaps too much, but that’s not my argument)
i can remember when Chancellors would delivery a budget with a tumbler of scotch at the side, in the House, and this was reported as if it was all perfectly normal. I imagine this has now stopped?! But the booze has always been there.
If anything we probably just notice it more because we live in a more censorious and puritan age (outside the home of Boris Johnson)
Former Senator David Perdue ended his campaign for governor of Georgia with a racist appeal to Republican primary voters on Monday, accusing Stacey Abrams, the presumptive Democratic nominee, of “demeaning her own race.” https://twitter.com/nytimes/status/1528873446255599617
The truly disgraceful thing is the number of voters who are prepared to support him.
Yep I sat with two people yesterday one of whom has completely turned against Johnson but the other is still in love with him. Two of us were trying to persuade her of a thousand reasons why Boris Johnson is unfit for the office of PM but she still continues to "like Boris".
She's not a graduate and I throw that into the mix with caution because, despite occasionally suggesting otherwise, I don't really like that supercilious 'we know best' attitude. But I think it's pertinent because there's no doubt that Boris is continuing to draw support from non-graduates and those who have failed as yet to see through the magician's sleight of hand. Oh dear, I've just been supercilious. It's hard so don't get angry BR & Co.
It genuinely baffles me how anyone can still support him. And I'd have a lot more respect for the Conservatives if they had not just the bottle but the integrity to remove him.
I often wonder the same about serial philanderers who still manage to convince the next woman that this time they will be faithful. I think some people just really want to believe in Boris because he is, in some way that the rest of us just don't see, charming to a large portion of the population.
I also think there is another sizeable chunk who have no love for the man but see him as a vehicle for their partisan agenda so are happy to overlook the character flaws so long as he is [delivering Brexit; insulting the French; keeping out the migrants]. Unfortunately for him that pragmatic group doesn't now include: cutting taxes; keeping out Corbyn; levelling up; or for that matter "delivering Brexit".
Well indeed I think Boris should be forced out and have said so for about 7 months now but that for me is because he raised taxes and that was a deal-breaker. Had he not done that, I'd be happy for him to stay on, but he did and that's a breach of trust I can't accept.
I think the brouhaha over your guy was drinking alcohol because he's a party animal, my guy was drinking alcohol because he's hard at work campaigning is stupid, hypocritical asinine bullshit that has dominated the public conversation far too much but that doesn't change the fact that Boris should go because he raised taxes.
Everyone has their own red lines and that was my one.
Your red line? Yes. The legal red line? No. Anyone else's red line? Don't be silly.
Yet this is this week's straw man that you have decided will batter all other arguments and posters into submission. Erm, no.
PS I'm not the only poster aggrieved about the taxes issue. I could name at least half a dozen other right-wing economically former Conservative voters who think the same on that, so its hardly unique even if it isn't sufficient on its own.
No you're not, it's true.
However, conflating that with the partying is rather disingenuous. Putting up taxes may piss you off but it doesn't break the law.
It's slightly disturbing that you don't seem to understand the difference.
The Metropolitan Police seem to think that him raising a glass of alcohol at work didn't break the law either, and I expect that Durham Police will find the same thing about his opposite number, so its you that doesn't understand the difference it seems.
Some people are saying its outrageous that the Metropolitan Police didn't fine him for this (and no doubt will find it outrageous if Durham Police do fine their guy) and are saying the Met got it wrong. The Met getting it wrong is certainly possible, they're far from infallible, but if that's the card you want to play then I will say they got it wrong issuing a fine for having cake at work at 1pm. Again, what's sauce for the goose . . . 🤷♂️
I said before the start of this that Boris should go and at the start of this if Boris broke the law its another reason he should go. Since the only fine is for cake, and I think the fine for cake was unreasonable, I don't think "partygate" is a reason for Boris to go. He should still go over taxes though.
The Met issued fines to people at this event. So the event was not legal. So why are you repeating the Peter Bone line that it was legal? You aren't dumb like Peter Bone...
If someone breaks the law at an event, that does not make the event illegal, it means the Police judged the actions of whoever got fined were illegal.
If you and thousands of others go to a concert, but one person who goes to the concert is caught taking or supply drugs by the Police and that individual is fined, then does that make the concert itself an illegal event? No, don't be ridiculous.
Unless we get told why the person who got fined was fined, we don't know what they were fined for, so all we know for certain is the Police believe that they broke the law in some way, not that the event itself was unlawful.
IIRC yesterday Cyclefree said that gatherings cannot intrinsically be either legal or illegal - and she should know.
You may have misunderstood her. frinstance
1.—(1) No person may participate in a gathering in the Tier 1 area which consists of more than six people.
I just looked at my phone Photos for November 2020 ... at no stage do any of them look like this. Try it with your photos... if you can find a party with raised glasses you probably were a Tory politician or SPAD .. that's how bad it is https://mobile.twitter.com/paulmasonnews/status/1528835927279288322
I looked, and found pictures of only two people I don’t live with, for the entire month. FWIW.
Its the whole drinking at work culture which surprises me.
I've not seen any alcohol drunk at my workplace for over 20 years or any work sponsored pub lunches for over 10 years.
I thought this was also the general trend throughout the country.
But not it seems in Downing Street.
Considering how often the bars come up in conversations about politics, I'm surprised at your surprise.
Anyway, I've often had alcohol at work, which makes me struggle to get outraged at either Keir or Boris having the same. I feel sorry that some people are so dry, or so lacking in self-control, that they think alcohol and work can't ever mix.
Unless you're driving of course, that's a different matter. Alcohol and driving don't mix, alcohol and work absolutely can.
The Westminster bars I can understand - the late night sittings, the endless visitors to be entertained, the blokeish atmosphere, the home-away-from-home eating and drinking.
But the drinking while in the office should never have been acceptable and in my experience work sponsored pub and restaurant outings have faded away to leave only the Christmas evening meal remaining (and we've not had those for the last two years because of covid).
But you and others making this argument are guilty of a category error. Politics at a high level - like PM of the UK - just never stops. This is increasingly true with social media and 24/7 news, but it has been true for many decades
Consider the multiple movies and dramas made about Churchill during the Blitz. There are scenes where he is naked in his bath sucking on a cigar and drinking whisky, even as he gives orders to underlings and a Secretary writes down his next speech
Why? Because the work never stopped, so it all blended together. Churchill needed a bath and a cigar and some scotch to relax, but Britain was in a terrible war so the decisions and dilemmas came at him, hourly, and he could not stop entirely
Perhaps a special constable should have marched in and taken the whisky and cigar away and said “You’re not allowed this, Winston, just do your job”?
And of course Number 10 during peak Covid - November-March 2020-21 must have felt like a wartime government
FWIW I agree with @mwadams and Boris’ real sin was lying about this to the Commons. He should have just made my argument. Yes, we drank, because life and work was all of a piece in that terrible time
I think there's a difference between, for example, Thatcher who was a heavy drinker but was always working and on top of the details compared with the current situation where it appears the 'fun' is much more prominent and there's a general slovenly attitude to getting work done.
Maggie was a heavy drinker? Really? That does surprise me considering her Methodist background, only five hours sleep a night etc.
Boris (per @Cyclefree) could be said to have a legitimate reason for being at the event as it was a "leaving do" and that is something a PM is expected to attend.
However, someone was (apparently) fined for being there. This suggests the police thought it was a party.
So the waffer thin line Boris is treading is that he thought it was a leaving do while actually it was a party. Which begs the question of why couldn't everyone use that excuse. Perhaps it was the organiser who was fined. You organised this and it was a party but everyone else thought it was a leaving do.
As @BartholomewRoberts says, the alcohol is irrelevant, save perhaps for helping to convince the police that it was a party after all.
I think it is sufficiently murky for there to be no gotcha moment.
I would love to see all the details from MPS.
Another possibility might be that police took the view that Boris had already been fined. Did other people receive more than one fine for different events?
Boris (per @Cyclefree) could be said to have a legitimate reason for being at the event as it was a "leaving do" and that is something a PM is expected to attend.
However, someone was (apparently) fined for being there. This suggests the police thought it was a party.
No, it doesn't, because the regulations didn't care about parties.
That someone was fined for being there suggests only that police thought that person did not have a reasonable excuse for being present at the gathering.
I just looked at my phone Photos for November 2020 ... at no stage do any of them look like this. Try it with your photos... if you can find a party with raised glasses you probably were a Tory politician or SPAD .. that's how bad it is https://mobile.twitter.com/paulmasonnews/status/1528835927279288322
I looked, and found pictures of only two people I don’t live with, for the entire month. FWIW.
Its the whole drinking at work culture which surprises me.
I've not seen any alcohol drunk at my workplace for over 20 years or any work sponsored pub lunches for over 10 years.
I thought this was also the general trend throughout the country.
But not it seems in Downing Street.
Considering how often the bars come up in conversations about politics, I'm surprised at your surprise.
Anyway, I've often had alcohol at work, which makes me struggle to get outraged at either Keir or Boris having the same. I feel sorry that some people are so dry, or so lacking in self-control, that they think alcohol and work can't ever mix.
Unless you're driving of course, that's a different matter. Alcohol and driving don't mix, alcohol and work absolutely can.
The Westminster bars I can understand - the late night sittings, the endless visitors to be entertained, the blokeish atmosphere, the home-away-from-home eating and drinking.
But the drinking while in the office should never have been acceptable and in my experience work sponsored pub and restaurant outings have faded away to leave only the Christmas evening meal remaining (and we've not had those for the last two years because of covid).
But you and others making this argument are guilty of a category error. Politics at a high level - like PM of the UK - just never stops. This is increasingly true with social media and 24/7 news, but it has been true for many decades
Consider the multiple movies and dramas made about Churchill during the Blitz. There are scenes where he is naked in his bath sucking on a cigar and drinking whisky, even as he gives orders to underlings and a Secretary writes down his next speech
Why? Because the work never stopped, so it all blended together. Churchill needed a bath and a cigar and some scotch to relax, but Britain was in a terrible war so the decisions and dilemmas came at him, hourly, and he could not stop entirely
Perhaps a special constable should have marched in and taken the whisky and cigar away and said “You’re not allowed this, Winston, just do your job”?
And of course Number 10 during peak Covid - November-March 2020-21 must have felt like a wartime government
FWIW I agree with @mwadams and Boris’ real sin was lying about this to the Commons. He should have just made my argument. Yes, we drank, because life and work was all of a piece in that terrible time
I think there's a difference between, for example, Thatcher who was a heavy drinker but was always working and on top of the details compared with the current situation where it appears the 'fun' is much more prominent and there's a general slovenly attitude to getting work done.
I’m not sure that’s true. Alcohol has always been closely interwoven with Westminster (perhaps too much, but that’s not my argument)
i can remember when Chancellors would delivery a budget with a tumbler of scotch at the side, in the House, and this was reported as if it was all perfectly normal. I imagine this has now stopped?! But the booze has always been there.
If anything we probably just notice it more because we live in a more censorious and puritan age (outside the home of Boris Johnson)
Your comments are quite right. But wholly irrelevant. You're almost as good as the PM at seeking to divert attention from the issue at hand. Any debate about alcohol and work can be safely postponed for a later date. This is about breaking Covid rules in place at the time by having illegal gatherings (not drinking).
Thatcher and Churchill drank their whisky or whatever blissfully unaware of Covid rules. Johnson didn't.
I just looked at my phone Photos for November 2020 ... at no stage do any of them look like this. Try it with your photos... if you can find a party with raised glasses you probably were a Tory politician or SPAD .. that's how bad it is https://mobile.twitter.com/paulmasonnews/status/1528835927279288322
I looked, and found pictures of only two people I don’t live with, for the entire month. FWIW.
Its the whole drinking at work culture which surprises me.
I've not seen any alcohol drunk at my workplace for over 20 years or any work sponsored pub lunches for over 10 years.
I thought this was also the general trend throughout the country.
But not it seems in Downing Street.
Considering how often the bars come up in conversations about politics, I'm surprised at your surprise.
Anyway, I've often had alcohol at work, which makes me struggle to get outraged at either Keir or Boris having the same. I feel sorry that some people are so dry, or so lacking in self-control, that they think alcohol and work can't ever mix.
Unless you're driving of course, that's a different matter. Alcohol and driving don't mix, alcohol and work absolutely can.
The Westminster bars I can understand - the late night sittings, the endless visitors to be entertained, the blokeish atmosphere, the home-away-from-home eating and drinking.
But the drinking while in the office should never have been acceptable and in my experience work sponsored pub and restaurant outings have faded away to leave only the Christmas evening meal remaining (and we've not had those for the last two years because of covid).
But you and others making this argument are guilty of a category error. Politics at a high level - like PM of the UK - just never stops. This is increasingly true with social media and 24/7 news, but it has been true for many decades
Consider the multiple movies and dramas made about Churchill during the Blitz. There are scenes where he is naked in his bath sucking on a cigar and drinking whisky, even as he gives orders to underlings and a Secretary writes down his next speech
Why? Because the work never stopped, so it all blended together. Churchill needed a bath and a cigar and some scotch to relax, but Britain was in a terrible war so the decisions and dilemmas came at him, hourly, and he could not stop entirely
Perhaps a special constable should have marched in and taken the whisky and cigar away and said “You’re not allowed this, Winston, just do your job”?
And of course Number 10 during peak Covid - November-March 2020-21 must have felt like a wartime government
FWIW I agree with @mwadams and Boris’ real sin was lying about this to the Commons. He should have just made my argument. Yes, we drank, because life and work was all of a piece in that terrible time
I think there's a difference between, for example, Thatcher who was a heavy drinker but was always working and on top of the details compared with the current situation where it appears the 'fun' is much more prominent and there's a general slovenly attitude to getting work done.
I’m not sure that’s true. Alcohol has always been closely interwoven with Westminster (perhaps too much, but that’s not my argument)
i can remember when Chancellors would delivery a budget with a tumbler of scotch at the side, in the House, and this was reported as if it was all perfectly normal. I imagine this has now stopped?! But the booze has always been there.
If anything we probably just notice it more because we live in a more censorious and puritan age (outside the home of Boris Johnson)
We notice it more because we had two years of restrictions on our lives.
We notice it more because the government has been making idiotic mistakes while seemingly half pissed most of the time.
We notice it more because in the real world if people mess up at their work while being half pissed they lose their jobs.
Boris (per @Cyclefree) could be said to have a legitimate reason for being at the event as it was a "leaving do" and that is something a PM is expected to attend.
However, someone was (apparently) fined for being there. This suggests the police thought it was a party.
So the waffer thin line Boris is treading is that he thought it was a leaving do while actually it was a party. Which begs the question of why couldn't everyone use that excuse. Perhaps it was the organiser who was fined. You organised this and it was a party but everyone else thought it was a leaving do.
As @BartholomewRoberts says, the alcohol is irrelevant, save perhaps for helping to convince the police that it was a party after all.
I think it is sufficiently murky for there to be no gotcha moment.
I would love to see all the details from MPS.
The political line is even better. Boris, lead round like a prize bull by his handlers was assured the event definitely wasn't a party[1]. He was then released for the time of the perfunctory where he raised a toast.[2]
Sentence 1 is the No 10 spun line "not well advised" [2] is pictoral fact
Former Senator David Perdue ended his campaign for governor of Georgia with a racist appeal to Republican primary voters on Monday, accusing Stacey Abrams, the presumptive Democratic nominee, of “demeaning her own race.” https://twitter.com/nytimes/status/1528873446255599617
The truly disgraceful thing is the number of voters who are prepared to support him.
Yep I sat with two people yesterday one of whom has completely turned against Johnson but the other is still in love with him. Two of us were trying to persuade her of a thousand reasons why Boris Johnson is unfit for the office of PM but she still continues to "like Boris".
She's not a graduate and I throw that into the mix with caution because, despite occasionally suggesting otherwise, I don't really like that supercilious 'we know best' attitude. But I think it's pertinent because there's no doubt that Boris is continuing to draw support from non-graduates and those who have failed as yet to see through the magician's sleight of hand. Oh dear, I've just been supercilious. It's hard so don't get angry BR & Co.
It genuinely baffles me how anyone can still support him. And I'd have a lot more respect for the Conservatives if they had not just the bottle but the integrity to remove him.
I often wonder the same about serial philanderers who still manage to convince the next woman that this time they will be faithful. I think some people just really want to believe in Boris because he is, in some way that the rest of us just don't see, charming to a large portion of the population.
I also think there is another sizeable chunk who have no love for the man but see him as a vehicle for their partisan agenda so are happy to overlook the character flaws so long as he is [delivering Brexit; insulting the French; keeping out the migrants]. Unfortunately for him that pragmatic group doesn't now include: cutting taxes; keeping out Corbyn; levelling up; or for that matter "delivering Brexit".
Well indeed I think Boris should be forced out and have said so for about 7 months now but that for me is because he raised taxes and that was a deal-breaker. Had he not done that, I'd be happy for him to stay on, but he did and that's a breach of trust I can't accept.
I think the brouhaha over your guy was drinking alcohol because he's a party animal, my guy was drinking alcohol because he's hard at work campaigning is stupid, hypocritical asinine bullshit that has dominated the public conversation far too much but that doesn't change the fact that Boris should go because he raised taxes.
Everyone has their own red lines and that was my one.
Your red line? Yes. The legal red line? No. Anyone else's red line? Don't be silly.
Yet this is this week's straw man that you have decided will batter all other arguments and posters into submission. Erm, no.
PS I'm not the only poster aggrieved about the taxes issue. I could name at least half a dozen other right-wing economically former Conservative voters who think the same on that, so its hardly unique even if it isn't sufficient on its own.
No you're not, it's true.
However, conflating that with the partying is rather disingenuous. Putting up taxes may piss you off but it doesn't break the law.
It's slightly disturbing that you don't seem to understand the difference.
The Metropolitan Police seem to think that him raising a glass of alcohol at work didn't break the law either, and I expect that Durham Police will find the same thing about his opposite number, so its you that doesn't understand the difference it seems.
Some people are saying its outrageous that the Metropolitan Police didn't fine him for this (and no doubt will find it outrageous if Durham Police do fine their guy) and are saying the Met got it wrong. The Met getting it wrong is certainly possible, they're far from infallible, but if that's the card you want to play then I will say they got it wrong issuing a fine for having cake at work at 1pm. Again, what's sauce for the goose . . . 🤷♂️
I said before the start of this that Boris should go and at the start of this if Boris broke the law its another reason he should go. Since the only fine is for cake, and I think the fine for cake was unreasonable, I don't think "partygate" is a reason for Boris to go. He should still go over taxes though.
The Met issued fines to people at this event. So the event was not legal. So why are you repeating the Peter Bone line that it was legal? You aren't dumb like Peter Bone...
If someone breaks the law at an event, that does not make the event illegal, it means the Police judged the actions of whoever got fined were illegal.
If you and thousands of others go to a concert, but one person who goes to the concert is caught taking or supply drugs by the Police and that individual is fined, then does that make the concert itself an illegal event? No, don't be ridiculous.
Unless we get told why the person who got fined was fined, we don't know what they were fined for, so all we know for certain is the Police believe that they broke the law in some way, not that the event itself was unlawful.
Could yoy upload an mp3 of the sound of one hand clapping? That would clarify things.
Here you go, from when right-on comedians didn't care about "cultural appropriation" it seems, which it seems was only nine years ago.
Former Senator David Perdue ended his campaign for governor of Georgia with a racist appeal to Republican primary voters on Monday, accusing Stacey Abrams, the presumptive Democratic nominee, of “demeaning her own race.” https://twitter.com/nytimes/status/1528873446255599617
The truly disgraceful thing is the number of voters who are prepared to support him.
Yep I sat with two people yesterday one of whom has completely turned against Johnson but the other is still in love with him. Two of us were trying to persuade her of a thousand reasons why Boris Johnson is unfit for the office of PM but she still continues to "like Boris".
She's not a graduate and I throw that into the mix with caution because, despite occasionally suggesting otherwise, I don't really like that supercilious 'we know best' attitude. But I think it's pertinent because there's no doubt that Boris is continuing to draw support from non-graduates and those who have failed as yet to see through the magician's sleight of hand. Oh dear, I've just been supercilious. It's hard so don't get angry BR & Co.
It genuinely baffles me how anyone can still support him. And I'd have a lot more respect for the Conservatives if they had not just the bottle but the integrity to remove him.
I often wonder the same about serial philanderers who still manage to convince the next woman that this time they will be faithful. I think some people just really want to believe in Boris because he is, in some way that the rest of us just don't see, charming to a large portion of the population.
I also think there is another sizeable chunk who have no love for the man but see him as a vehicle for their partisan agenda so are happy to overlook the character flaws so long as he is [delivering Brexit; insulting the French; keeping out the migrants]. Unfortunately for him that pragmatic group doesn't now include: cutting taxes; keeping out Corbyn; levelling up; or for that matter "delivering Brexit".
Well indeed I think Boris should be forced out and have said so for about 7 months now but that for me is because he raised taxes and that was a deal-breaker. Had he not done that, I'd be happy for him to stay on, but he did and that's a breach of trust I can't accept.
I think the brouhaha over your guy was drinking alcohol because he's a party animal, my guy was drinking alcohol because he's hard at work campaigning is stupid, hypocritical asinine bullshit that has dominated the public conversation far too much but that doesn't change the fact that Boris should go because he raised taxes.
Everyone has their own red lines and that was my one.
Your red line? Yes. The legal red line? No. Anyone else's red line? Don't be silly.
Yet this is this week's straw man that you have decided will batter all other arguments and posters into submission. Erm, no.
PS I'm not the only poster aggrieved about the taxes issue. I could name at least half a dozen other right-wing economically former Conservative voters who think the same on that, so its hardly unique even if it isn't sufficient on its own.
No you're not, it's true.
However, conflating that with the partying is rather disingenuous. Putting up taxes may piss you off but it doesn't break the law.
It's slightly disturbing that you don't seem to understand the difference.
The Metropolitan Police seem to think that him raising a glass of alcohol at work didn't break the law either, and I expect that Durham Police will find the same thing about his opposite number, so its you that doesn't understand the difference it seems.
Some people are saying its outrageous that the Metropolitan Police didn't fine him for this (and no doubt will find it outrageous if Durham Police do fine their guy) and are saying the Met got it wrong. The Met getting it wrong is certainly possible, they're far from infallible, but if that's the card you want to play then I will say they got it wrong issuing a fine for having cake at work at 1pm. Again, what's sauce for the goose . . . 🤷♂️
I said before the start of this that Boris should go and at the start of this if Boris broke the law its another reason he should go. Since the only fine is for cake, and I think the fine for cake was unreasonable, I don't think "partygate" is a reason for Boris to go. He should still go over taxes though.
The Met issued fines to people at this event. So the event was not legal. So why are you repeating the Peter Bone line that it was legal? You aren't dumb like Peter Bone...
If someone breaks the law at an event, that does not make the event illegal, it means the Police judged the actions of whoever got fined were illegal.
If you and thousands of others go to a concert, but one person who goes to the concert is caught taking or supply drugs by the Police and that individual is fined, then does that make the concert itself an illegal event? No, don't be ridiculous.
Unless we get told why the person who got fined was fined, we don't know what they were fined for, so all we know for certain is the Police believe that they broke the law in some way, not that the event itself was unlawful.
IIRC yesterday Cyclefree said that gatherings cannot intrinsically be either legal or illegal - and she should know.
You may have misunderstood her. frinstance
1.—(1) No person may participate in a gathering in the Tier 1 area which consists of more than six people.
I’m not belittling the “crime”, though as scandals go we’ve all seen far worse. And I am sure SW1 bubble-types can still get excited by this, but for the public the flogged horse is not just dead it is entombed
And the fact there is a very similar photo of Starmer, bottle raised, clearly breaking the rules (as Boris broke the rules) makes it all a wash
Boris AND Starmer will survive. Either could be PM in 24
Bones of four hundred councillors lie strewn about its lair. Yes. People care.
Anyone who was going to get all hot and bothered by this is already super-hot and extremely bothered, this won’t suddenly tip over into ultra-galactic white-hot hotness and mega-cosmic botheredness from the constellation Bothered, You Bet. Anyone who was going to switch votes or opinions on the basis of this, has already done so
The ones left frothing, as @DavidL suggests, are Boris-haters, and they are generally embittered Remoaners. They want their revenge; I doubt this will provide it
God, you and Brexit. Just let it go. Boris should go for numerous reasons that are post Brexit. Nobody mentions it anymore except you in the context of getting rid of Boris. Literally nobody at all.
It is absurd to pretend that Boris-hatred isn’t driven, largely (but not always) by Brexit
And Boris-hatred is sustaining this tedious half-arsed scandal about booze-ups during lockdown, which made me angry for a bit in early 2022, but about which I now just can’t be arsed, as they say, especially as Labour have been just as devious and hypocritical
The PM is a lying chancer possibly undermining democracy, Starmer is a boring liar who wanted to cancel democracy with a 2nd referendum
In 2024 we will have to choose between these two unsavoury characters. Hey ho
Nonsense. Just to name a few leavers that immediately come to mind that want to see Boris gone: MarqueeMark, BartholomewRoberts, Casino_Royale, etc, etc. Look at the MPs like Steve Baker. It has nothing whatsoever to do with Brexit.
And the comments about Starmer are just tosh. I am no Starmer fan. I have never ever voted Labour, but there are no grounds to call him a liar (so far )
You are just driven mad by Brexit. God knows why. I am a passionate Remainer, but I accepted it. What is wrong with you; you won. Why can't you accept it.
Starmer is a lying c*** who wanted to overturn the biggest vote in British history, by ignoring it. He literally wanted to demolish democracy by telling all the thick racist Leavers “No, your vote didn’t count, so we’re having another one, until you get it right”
There’s no getting around it. This is what he did. And he was Shadow Secretary for Brexit. I can see why Starmer is desperate for everyone to forget this and “move on”. But some of us will not. He needs to grovel and apologise and ask for our forgiveness
Well for someone who writes for a living I think you are struggling to understand the meaning of lying. Now there is a debate on the ethics of a 2nd referendum which I can see you are slightly on one side of, but that is not lying. That is proposing something you bitterly don't like. Lying is when you say something that is untrue. No wonder you are confused about Boris.
I also note you actually ignored the principle point of my post showing your principle statement was false and attacked the minor (actually quite irrelevant) point I made about Starmer not lying (yet).
Just to reiterate the main point, this forum is full of leavers who want Boris to go (and bizarrely Remainers who want him to stay) as is Parliament, which proves you point is utter nonsense.
Starmer in 2016 said the vote MUST be respected. By 2019 he was saying the vote MUST be disrespected - ie, ignored and set aside and we have a new vote to supersede it
He didn’t just lie, he was the embodiment of a disgusting Trumpite coup that nearly won the day, and which would have shattered our democracy forever, by telling people there literally is no point in voting, as “they” can just ignore it
And now, I’m having some tea. Kalimera
You do know there was a general election in 2017? In the 2015 parliament which held the (advisory) referendum there was no real debate that they just take it under advisement. It would be enacted.
And then we had an election. And that parliament can do whatever the hell it likes. This parliament isn't just free to overturn anything it likes from any other previous parliament including 2017 and 2015, they are overturning manifesto pledge laws passed a couple of years ago in this parliament.
Is Johnson putting laws to parliament to overturn chunks of the core of the manifesto "oven-ready deal" also a "disgusting Trumpite coup"?
In no sense was the vote “advisory”. Anyone trying to use the word “advisory” as a way of justifying their anti-democratic 2nd vote c*ntishness should be thrown in the sewer
Prime Minister David Cameron, speaking to the British people, from Chatham House, in 2015
'Ultimately it will be the judgment of the British people in the referendum... You will have to judge what is best for you and your family, for your children and grandchildren, for our country, for our future. It will be your decision whether to remain in the EU on the basis of the reforms we secure, or whether we leave. Your decision. Nobody else’s. Not politicians’. Not Parliament’s. Not lobby groups’. Not mine. Just you. You, the British people, will decide. At that moment, you will hold this country’s destiny in your hands. This is a huge decision for our country, perhaps the biggest we will make in our lifetimes. And it will be the final decision.'
Cameron goes on to say this:
'So to those who suggest that a decision in the referendum to leave would merely produce another stronger renegotiation, and then a second referendum in which Britain would stay, I say: think again. The renegotiation is happening right now. And the referendum that follows will be a once in a generation choice. An in or out referendum. When the British people speak, their voice will be respected – not ignored. If we vote to leave, then we will leave. There will not be another renegotiation and another referendum.'
That’s it. Starmer is a vile piece of work
In a very legal reality the vote was advisory. I can post you the statute law proving this if you like. And in a very direct sense the word of Cameron had validity only whilst he was PM - and he quit.
Anyway, back to the points I raised. The 2015 parliament committed to progressing with the result. Then we had an election. Which is not bound by anything by any previous parliament. So its perfectly valid for that parliament to seek to act as it sees fit on this and any issue.
To demonstrate this simply, this government in this parliament is to bring forward laws to overturn laws passed by itself just 2 years ago. Laws which were a manifesto promise at the heart of the Tories successful election campaign. It is demonstrably against what people voted for, yet it is also perfectly valid because parliament is sovereign.
I’m not belittling the “crime”, though as scandals go we’ve all seen far worse. And I am sure SW1 bubble-types can still get excited by this, but for the public the flogged horse is not just dead it is entombed
And the fact there is a very similar photo of Starmer, bottle raised, clearly breaking the rules (as Boris broke the rules) makes it all a wash
Boris AND Starmer will survive. Either could be PM in 24
Bones of four hundred councillors lie strewn about its lair. Yes. People care.
Anyone who was going to get all hot and bothered by this is already super-hot and extremely bothered, this won’t suddenly tip over into ultra-galactic white-hot hotness and mega-cosmic botheredness from the constellation Bothered, You Bet. Anyone who was going to switch votes or opinions on the basis of this, has already done so
The ones left frothing, as @DavidL suggests, are Boris-haters, and they are generally embittered Remoaners. They want their revenge; I doubt this will provide it
God, you and Brexit. Just let it go. Boris should go for numerous reasons that are post Brexit. Nobody mentions it anymore except you in the context of getting rid of Boris. Literally nobody at all.
It is absurd to pretend that Boris-hatred isn’t driven, largely (but not always) by Brexit
And Boris-hatred is sustaining this tedious half-arsed scandal about booze-ups during lockdown, which made me angry for a bit in early 2022, but about which I now just can’t be arsed, as they say, especially as Labour have been just as devious and hypocritical
The PM is a lying chancer possibly undermining democracy, Starmer is a boring liar who wanted to cancel democracy with a 2nd referendum
In 2024 we will have to choose between these two unsavoury characters. Hey ho
Nonsense. Just to name a few leavers that immediately come to mind that want to see Boris gone: MarqueeMark, BartholomewRoberts, Casino_Royale, etc, etc. Look at the MPs like Steve Baker. It has nothing whatsoever to do with Brexit.
And the comments about Starmer are just tosh. I am no Starmer fan. I have never ever voted Labour, but there are no grounds to call him a liar (so far )
You are just driven mad by Brexit. God knows why. I am a passionate Remainer, but I accepted it. What is wrong with you; you won. Why can't you accept it.
Starmer is a lying c*** who wanted to overturn the biggest vote in British history, by ignoring it. He literally wanted to demolish democracy by telling all the thick racist Leavers “No, your vote didn’t count, so we’re having another one, until you get it right”
There’s no getting around it. This is what he did. And he was Shadow Secretary for Brexit. I can see why Starmer is desperate for everyone to forget this and “move on”. But some of us will not. He needs to grovel and apologise and ask for our forgiveness
Well for someone who writes for a living I think you are struggling to understand the meaning of lying. Now there is a debate on the ethics of a 2nd referendum which I can see you are slightly on one side of, but that is not lying. That is proposing something you bitterly don't like. Lying is when you say something that is untrue. No wonder you are confused about Boris.
I also note you actually ignored the principle point of my post showing your principle statement was false and attacked the minor (actually quite irrelevant) point I made about Starmer not lying (yet).
Just to reiterate the main point, this forum is full of leavers who want Boris to go (and bizarrely Remainers who want him to stay) as is Parliament, which proves you point is utter nonsense.
Starmer in 2016 said the vote MUST be respected. By 2019 he was saying the vote MUST be disrespected - ie, ignored and set aside and we have a new vote to supersede it
He didn’t just lie, he was the embodiment of a disgusting Trumpite coup that nearly won the day, and which would have shattered our democracy forever, by telling people there literally is no point in voting, as “they” can just ignore it
And now, I’m having some tea. Kalimera
You do know there was a general election in 2017? In the 2015 parliament which held the (advisory) referendum there was no real debate that they just take it under advisement. It would be enacted.
And then we had an election. And that parliament can do whatever the hell it likes. This parliament isn't just free to overturn anything it likes from any other previous parliament including 2017 and 2015, they are overturning manifesto pledge laws passed a couple of years ago in this parliament.
Is Johnson putting laws to parliament to overturn chunks of the core of the manifesto "oven-ready deal" also a "disgusting Trumpite coup"?
In no sense was the vote “advisory”. Anyone trying to use the word “advisory” as a way of justifying their anti-democratic 2nd vote c*ntishness should be thrown in the sewer
Prime Minister David Cameron, speaking to the British people, from Chatham House, in 2015
'Ultimately it will be the judgment of the British people in the referendum... You will have to judge what is best for you and your family, for your children and grandchildren, for our country, for our future. It will be your decision whether to remain in the EU on the basis of the reforms we secure, or whether we leave. Your decision. Nobody else’s. Not politicians’. Not Parliament’s. Not lobby groups’. Not mine. Just you. You, the British people, will decide. At that moment, you will hold this country’s destiny in your hands. This is a huge decision for our country, perhaps the biggest we will make in our lifetimes. And it will be the final decision.'
Cameron goes on to say this:
'So to those who suggest that a decision in the referendum to leave would merely produce another stronger renegotiation, and then a second referendum in which Britain would stay, I say: think again. The renegotiation is happening right now. And the referendum that follows will be a once in a generation choice. An in or out referendum. When the British people speak, their voice will be respected – not ignored. If we vote to leave, then we will leave. There will not be another renegotiation and another referendum.'
That’s it. Starmer is a vile piece of work
This is precisely the problem (and why Cameron was such an unmitigated catastrophe of a politician).
He was so confident of a substantial Remain victory that would put the headbangers and Faragistes back in their box. So the terms of the referendum, and all the language he used, was of the form "this will be the settled will of the people, to which we will all cleave". Regardless of the actual legal status.
And (as subsequent events showed) no amount of technical argument could wind back from that position.
I just looked at my phone Photos for November 2020 ... at no stage do any of them look like this. Try it with your photos... if you can find a party with raised glasses you probably were a Tory politician or SPAD .. that's how bad it is https://mobile.twitter.com/paulmasonnews/status/1528835927279288322
I looked, and found pictures of only two people I don’t live with, for the entire month. FWIW.
Its the whole drinking at work culture which surprises me.
I've not seen any alcohol drunk at my workplace for over 20 years or any work sponsored pub lunches for over 10 years.
I thought this was also the general trend throughout the country.
But not it seems in Downing Street.
Considering how often the bars come up in conversations about politics, I'm surprised at your surprise.
Anyway, I've often had alcohol at work, which makes me struggle to get outraged at either Keir or Boris having the same. I feel sorry that some people are so dry, or so lacking in self-control, that they think alcohol and work can't ever mix.
Unless you're driving of course, that's a different matter. Alcohol and driving don't mix, alcohol and work absolutely can.
The Westminster bars I can understand - the late night sittings, the endless visitors to be entertained, the blokeish atmosphere, the home-away-from-home eating and drinking.
But the drinking while in the office should never have been acceptable and in my experience work sponsored pub and restaurant outings have faded away to leave only the Christmas evening meal remaining (and we've not had those for the last two years because of covid).
But you and others making this argument are guilty of a category error. Politics at a high level - like PM of the UK - just never stops. This is increasingly true with social media and 24/7 news, but it has been true for many decades
Consider the multiple movies and dramas made about Churchill during the Blitz. There are scenes where he is naked in his bath sucking on a cigar and drinking whisky, even as he gives orders to underlings and a Secretary writes down his next speech
Why? Because the work never stopped, so it all blended together. Churchill needed a bath and a cigar and some scotch to relax, but Britain was in a terrible war so the decisions and dilemmas came at him, hourly, and he could not stop entirely
Perhaps a special constable should have marched in and taken the whisky and cigar away and said “You’re not allowed this, Winston, just do your job”?
And of course Number 10 during peak Covid - November-March 2020-21 must have felt like a wartime government
FWIW I agree with @mwadams and Boris’ real sin was lying about this to the Commons. He should have just made my argument. Yes, we drank, because life and work was all of a piece in that terrible time
I think there's a difference between, for example, Thatcher who was a heavy drinker but was always working and on top of the details compared with the current situation where it appears the 'fun' is much more prominent and there's a general slovenly attitude to getting work done.
I’m not sure that’s true. Alcohol has always been closely interwoven with Westminster (perhaps too much, but that’s not my argument)
i can remember when Chancellors would delivery a budget with a tumbler of scotch at the side, in the House, and this was reported as if it was all perfectly normal. I imagine this has now stopped?! But the booze has always been there.
If anything we probably just notice it more because we live in a more censorious and puritan age (outside the home of Boris Johnson)
Gordon Brown stopped it.
Its still permitted. Only during delivery of the budget, but the CofExchq can have a drinky. Not allowed in the chamber any other time
I just looked at my phone Photos for November 2020 ... at no stage do any of them look like this. Try it with your photos... if you can find a party with raised glasses you probably were a Tory politician or SPAD .. that's how bad it is https://mobile.twitter.com/paulmasonnews/status/1528835927279288322
I looked, and found pictures of only two people I don’t live with, for the entire month. FWIW.
Its the whole drinking at work culture which surprises me.
I've not seen any alcohol drunk at my workplace for over 20 years or any work sponsored pub lunches for over 10 years.
I thought this was also the general trend throughout the country.
But not it seems in Downing Street.
Considering how often the bars come up in conversations about politics, I'm surprised at your surprise.
Anyway, I've often had alcohol at work, which makes me struggle to get outraged at either Keir or Boris having the same. I feel sorry that some people are so dry, or so lacking in self-control, that they think alcohol and work can't ever mix.
Unless you're driving of course, that's a different matter. Alcohol and driving don't mix, alcohol and work absolutely can.
The Westminster bars I can understand - the late night sittings, the endless visitors to be entertained, the blokeish atmosphere, the home-away-from-home eating and drinking.
But the drinking while in the office should never have been acceptable and in my experience work sponsored pub and restaurant outings have faded away to leave only the Christmas evening meal remaining (and we've not had those for the last two years because of covid).
But you and others making this argument are guilty of a category error. Politics at a high level - like PM of the UK - just never stops. This is increasingly true with social media and 24/7 news, but it has been true for many decades
Consider the multiple movies and dramas made about Churchill during the Blitz. There are scenes where he is naked in his bath sucking on a cigar and drinking whisky, even as he gives orders to underlings and a Secretary writes down his next speech
Why? Because the work never stopped, so it all blended together. Churchill needed a bath and a cigar and some scotch to relax, but Britain was in a terrible war so the decisions and dilemmas came at him, hourly, and he could not stop entirely
Perhaps a special constable should have marched in and taken the whisky and cigar away and said “You’re not allowed this, Winston, just do your job”?
And of course Number 10 during peak Covid - November-March 2020-21 must have felt like a wartime government
FWIW I agree with @mwadams and Boris’ real sin was lying about this to the Commons. He should have just made my argument. Yes, we drank, because life and work was all of a piece in that terrible time
I think there's a difference between, for example, Thatcher who was a heavy drinker but was always working and on top of the details compared with the current situation where it appears the 'fun' is much more prominent and there's a general slovenly attitude to getting work done.
Maggie was a heavy drinker? Really? That does surprise me considering her Methodist background, only five hours sleep a night etc.
She was a boozer. Scotch at lunch
Maggie famously only had four or five hours sleep a night. What is less well known is her propensity for an afternoon nap - thereby topping her up to a normal amount of sleep and also allowing her to sleep off the effects of a boozy lunch.
My anger at Johnson has become a re-direction of my regret at wasting a big chunk of my life following a bunch of silly restrictions.
There must be plenty of people who, deep down, know they messed up by not attending that funeral, or hugging their elderly parents, or stopping their children playing with their friends.
Perhaps @DavidL and @Leon were smart/cynical enough to realise this at the time and the "betrayal" isn't as raw for them. It's toxic for those of us who were fool enough to trust the PM.
Aside from that, the Commons is just a laughing stock now (getting to Scottish Parliament levels of impotence).
I just looked at my phone Photos for November 2020 ... at no stage do any of them look like this. Try it with your photos... if you can find a party with raised glasses you probably were a Tory politician or SPAD .. that's how bad it is https://mobile.twitter.com/paulmasonnews/status/1528835927279288322
I looked, and found pictures of only two people I don’t live with, for the entire month. FWIW.
Its the whole drinking at work culture which surprises me.
I've not seen any alcohol drunk at my workplace for over 20 years or any work sponsored pub lunches for over 10 years.
I thought this was also the general trend throughout the country.
But not it seems in Downing Street.
Considering how often the bars come up in conversations about politics, I'm surprised at your surprise.
Anyway, I've often had alcohol at work, which makes me struggle to get outraged at either Keir or Boris having the same. I feel sorry that some people are so dry, or so lacking in self-control, that they think alcohol and work can't ever mix.
Unless you're driving of course, that's a different matter. Alcohol and driving don't mix, alcohol and work absolutely can.
The Westminster bars I can understand - the late night sittings, the endless visitors to be entertained, the blokeish atmosphere, the home-away-from-home eating and drinking.
But the drinking while in the office should never have been acceptable and in my experience work sponsored pub and restaurant outings have faded away to leave only the Christmas evening meal remaining (and we've not had those for the last two years because of covid).
But you and others making this argument are guilty of a category error. Politics at a high level - like PM of the UK - just never stops. This is increasingly true with social media and 24/7 news, but it has been true for many decades
Consider the multiple movies and dramas made about Churchill during the Blitz. There are scenes where he is naked in his bath sucking on a cigar and drinking whisky, even as he gives orders to underlings and a Secretary writes down his next speech
Why? Because the work never stopped, so it all blended together. Churchill needed a bath and a cigar and some scotch to relax, but Britain was in a terrible war so the decisions and dilemmas came at him, hourly, and he could not stop entirely
Perhaps a special constable should have marched in and taken the whisky and cigar away and said “You’re not allowed this, Winston, just do your job”?
And of course Number 10 during peak Covid - November-March 2020-21 must have felt like a wartime government
FWIW I agree with @mwadams and Boris’ real sin was lying about this to the Commons. He should have just made my argument. Yes, we drank, because life and work was all of a piece in that terrible time
I think there's a difference between, for example, Thatcher who was a heavy drinker but was always working and on top of the details compared with the current situation where it appears the 'fun' is much more prominent and there's a general slovenly attitude to getting work done.
I’m not sure that’s true. Alcohol has always been closely interwoven with Westminster (perhaps too much, but that’s not my argument)
i can remember when Chancellors would delivery a budget with a tumbler of scotch at the side, in the House, and this was reported as if it was all perfectly normal. I imagine this has now stopped?! But the booze has always been there.
If anything we probably just notice it more because we live in a more censorious and puritan age (outside the home of Boris Johnson)
Gordon Brown stopped it.
Its still permitted. Only during delivery of the budget, but the CofExchq can have a drinky. Not allowed in the chamber any other time
True, it's still technically permitted. But a chancellor now who tried to use the permission would be buried in an avalanche of puritans.
I just looked at my phone Photos for November 2020 ... at no stage do any of them look like this. Try it with your photos... if you can find a party with raised glasses you probably were a Tory politician or SPAD .. that's how bad it is https://mobile.twitter.com/paulmasonnews/status/1528835927279288322
I looked, and found pictures of only two people I don’t live with, for the entire month. FWIW.
Its the whole drinking at work culture which surprises me.
I've not seen any alcohol drunk at my workplace for over 20 years or any work sponsored pub lunches for over 10 years.
I thought this was also the general trend throughout the country.
But not it seems in Downing Street.
Considering how often the bars come up in conversations about politics, I'm surprised at your surprise.
Anyway, I've often had alcohol at work, which makes me struggle to get outraged at either Keir or Boris having the same. I feel sorry that some people are so dry, or so lacking in self-control, that they think alcohol and work can't ever mix.
Unless you're driving of course, that's a different matter. Alcohol and driving don't mix, alcohol and work absolutely can.
The Westminster bars I can understand - the late night sittings, the endless visitors to be entertained, the blokeish atmosphere, the home-away-from-home eating and drinking.
But the drinking while in the office should never have been acceptable and in my experience work sponsored pub and restaurant outings have faded away to leave only the Christmas evening meal remaining (and we've not had those for the last two years because of covid).
But you and others making this argument are guilty of a category error. Politics at a high level - like PM of the UK - just never stops. This is increasingly true with social media and 24/7 news, but it has been true for many decades
Consider the multiple movies and dramas made about Churchill during the Blitz. There are scenes where he is naked in his bath sucking on a cigar and drinking whisky, even as he gives orders to underlings and a Secretary writes down his next speech
Why? Because the work never stopped, so it all blended together. Churchill needed a bath and a cigar and some scotch to relax, but Britain was in a terrible war so the decisions and dilemmas came at him, hourly, and he could not stop entirely
Perhaps a special constable should have marched in and taken the whisky and cigar away and said “You’re not allowed this, Winston, just do your job”?
And of course Number 10 during peak Covid - November-March 2020-21 must have felt like a wartime government
FWIW I agree with @mwadams and Boris’ real sin was lying about this to the Commons. He should have just made my argument. Yes, we drank, because life and work was all of a piece in that terrible time
I think there's a difference between, for example, Thatcher who was a heavy drinker but was always working and on top of the details compared with the current situation where it appears the 'fun' is much more prominent and there's a general slovenly attitude to getting work done.
I’m not sure that’s true. Alcohol has always been closely interwoven with Westminster (perhaps too much, but that’s not my argument)
i can remember when Chancellors would delivery a budget with a tumbler of scotch at the side, in the House, and this was reported as if it was all perfectly normal. I imagine this has now stopped?! But the booze has always been there.
If anything we probably just notice it more because we live in a more censorious and puritan age (outside the home of Boris Johnson)
Your comments are quite right. But wholly irrelevant. You're almost as good as the PM at seeking to divert attention from the issue at hand. Any debate about alcohol and work can be safely postponed for a later date. This is about breaking Covid rules in place at the time by having illegal gatherings (not drinking).
Thatcher and Churchill drank their whisky or whatever blissfully unaware of Covid rules. Johnson didn't.
Except there was no Covid rule against whisky or any other form of booze that is relevant here.
If Keir and Boris are allowed to drink at work (they are) and if they were allowed to work (they are) then they are permitted to drink while working even under Covid regulations.
I’m not belittling the “crime”, though as scandals go we’ve all seen far worse. And I am sure SW1 bubble-types can still get excited by this, but for the public the flogged horse is not just dead it is entombed
And the fact there is a very similar photo of Starmer, bottle raised, clearly breaking the rules (as Boris broke the rules) makes it all a wash
Boris AND Starmer will survive. Either could be PM in 24
Bones of four hundred councillors lie strewn about its lair. Yes. People care.
Anyone who was going to get all hot and bothered by this is already super-hot and extremely bothered, this won’t suddenly tip over into ultra-galactic white-hot hotness and mega-cosmic botheredness from the constellation Bothered, You Bet. Anyone who was going to switch votes or opinions on the basis of this, has already done so
The ones left frothing, as @DavidL suggests, are Boris-haters, and they are generally embittered Remoaners. They want their revenge; I doubt this will provide it
God, you and Brexit. Just let it go. Boris should go for numerous reasons that are post Brexit. Nobody mentions it anymore except you in the context of getting rid of Boris. Literally nobody at all.
It is absurd to pretend that Boris-hatred isn’t driven, largely (but not always) by Brexit
And Boris-hatred is sustaining this tedious half-arsed scandal about booze-ups during lockdown, which made me angry for a bit in early 2022, but about which I now just can’t be arsed, as they say, especially as Labour have been just as devious and hypocritical
The PM is a lying chancer possibly undermining democracy, Starmer is a boring liar who wanted to cancel democracy with a 2nd referendum
In 2024 we will have to choose between these two unsavoury characters. Hey ho
Nonsense. Just to name a few leavers that immediately come to mind that want to see Boris gone: MarqueeMark, BartholomewRoberts, Casino_Royale, etc, etc. Look at the MPs like Steve Baker. It has nothing whatsoever to do with Brexit.
And the comments about Starmer are just tosh. I am no Starmer fan. I have never ever voted Labour, but there are no grounds to call him a liar (so far )
You are just driven mad by Brexit. God knows why. I am a passionate Remainer, but I accepted it. What is wrong with you; you won. Why can't you accept it.
Starmer is a lying c*** who wanted to overturn the biggest vote in British history, by ignoring it. He literally wanted to demolish democracy by telling all the thick racist Leavers “No, your vote didn’t count, so we’re having another one, until you get it right”
There’s no getting around it. This is what he did. And he was Shadow Secretary for Brexit. I can see why Starmer is desperate for everyone to forget this and “move on”. But some of us will not. He needs to grovel and apologise and ask for our forgiveness
Well for someone who writes for a living I think you are struggling to understand the meaning of lying. Now there is a debate on the ethics of a 2nd referendum which I can see you are slightly on one side of, but that is not lying. That is proposing something you bitterly don't like. Lying is when you say something that is untrue. No wonder you are confused about Boris.
I also note you actually ignored the principle point of my post showing your principle statement was false and attacked the minor (actually quite irrelevant) point I made about Starmer not lying (yet).
Just to reiterate the main point, this forum is full of leavers who want Boris to go (and bizarrely Remainers who want him to stay) as is Parliament, which proves you point is utter nonsense.
Starmer in 2016 said the vote MUST be respected. By 2019 he was saying the vote MUST be disrespected - ie, ignored and set aside and we have a new vote to supersede it
He didn’t just lie, he was the embodiment of a disgusting Trumpite coup that nearly won the day, and which would have shattered our democracy forever, by telling people there literally is no point in voting, as “they” can just ignore it
And now, I’m having some tea. Kalimera
You do know there was a general election in 2017? In the 2015 parliament which held the (advisory) referendum there was no real debate that they just take it under advisement. It would be enacted.
And then we had an election. And that parliament can do whatever the hell it likes. This parliament isn't just free to overturn anything it likes from any other previous parliament including 2017 and 2015, they are overturning manifesto pledge laws passed a couple of years ago in this parliament.
Is Johnson putting laws to parliament to overturn chunks of the core of the manifesto "oven-ready deal" also a "disgusting Trumpite coup"?
In no sense was the vote “advisory”. Anyone trying to use the word “advisory” as a way of justifying their anti-democratic 2nd vote c*ntishness should be thrown in the sewer
Prime Minister David Cameron, speaking to the British people, from Chatham House, in 2015
'Ultimately it will be the judgment of the British people in the referendum... You will have to judge what is best for you and your family, for your children and grandchildren, for our country, for our future. It will be your decision whether to remain in the EU on the basis of the reforms we secure, or whether we leave. Your decision. Nobody else’s. Not politicians’. Not Parliament’s. Not lobby groups’. Not mine. Just you. You, the British people, will decide. At that moment, you will hold this country’s destiny in your hands. This is a huge decision for our country, perhaps the biggest we will make in our lifetimes. And it will be the final decision.'
Cameron goes on to say this:
'So to those who suggest that a decision in the referendum to leave would merely produce another stronger renegotiation, and then a second referendum in which Britain would stay, I say: think again. The renegotiation is happening right now. And the referendum that follows will be a once in a generation choice. An in or out referendum. When the British people speak, their voice will be respected – not ignored. If we vote to leave, then we will leave. There will not be another renegotiation and another referendum.'
That’s it. Starmer is a vile piece of work
This is precisely the problem (and why Cameron was such an unmitigated catastrophe of a politician).
He was so confident of a substantial Remain victory that would put the headbangers and Faragistes back in their box. So the terms of the referendum, and all the language he used, was of the form "this will be the settled will of the people, to which we will all cleave". Regardless of the actual legal status.
And (as subsequent events showed) no amount of technical argument could wind back from that position.
And then he resigned. And left the 2015 parliament and the new PM to it. She had a go, then decided we needed to elect a new parliament. They also had a go, got yet another new PM who also decided we needed to elect a new parliament.
Bonzo is doing us a favour. He is demonstrating that parliamentary sovereignty is absolute. It isn't just free to overturn any legal commitment of previous parliaments. He is about to overturn laws he passed two years ago. Which was very directly the manifesto pledge which saw them secure a big majority.
Whilst I think its funny that the government is overthrowing its own manifesto which so many voted for, its perfectly valid. Parliament can do what it likes.
Former Senator David Perdue ended his campaign for governor of Georgia with a racist appeal to Republican primary voters on Monday, accusing Stacey Abrams, the presumptive Democratic nominee, of “demeaning her own race.” https://twitter.com/nytimes/status/1528873446255599617
The truly disgraceful thing is the number of voters who are prepared to support him.
Yep I sat with two people yesterday one of whom has completely turned against Johnson but the other is still in love with him. Two of us were trying to persuade her of a thousand reasons why Boris Johnson is unfit for the office of PM but she still continues to "like Boris".
She's not a graduate and I throw that into the mix with caution because, despite occasionally suggesting otherwise, I don't really like that supercilious 'we know best' attitude. But I think it's pertinent because there's no doubt that Boris is continuing to draw support from non-graduates and those who have failed as yet to see through the magician's sleight of hand. Oh dear, I've just been supercilious. It's hard so don't get angry BR & Co.
It genuinely baffles me how anyone can still support him. And I'd have a lot more respect for the Conservatives if they had not just the bottle but the integrity to remove him.
I often wonder the same about serial philanderers who still manage to convince the next woman that this time they will be faithful. I think some people just really want to believe in Boris because he is, in some way that the rest of us just don't see, charming to a large portion of the population.
I also think there is another sizeable chunk who have no love for the man but see him as a vehicle for their partisan agenda so are happy to overlook the character flaws so long as he is [delivering Brexit; insulting the French; keeping out the migrants]. Unfortunately for him that pragmatic group doesn't now include: cutting taxes; keeping out Corbyn; levelling up; or for that matter "delivering Brexit".
Well indeed I think Boris should be forced out and have said so for about 7 months now but that for me is because he raised taxes and that was a deal-breaker. Had he not done that, I'd be happy for him to stay on, but he did and that's a breach of trust I can't accept.
I think the brouhaha over your guy was drinking alcohol because he's a party animal, my guy was drinking alcohol because he's hard at work campaigning is stupid, hypocritical asinine bullshit that has dominated the public conversation far too much but that doesn't change the fact that Boris should go because he raised taxes.
Everyone has their own red lines and that was my one.
Your red line? Yes. The legal red line? No. Anyone else's red line? Don't be silly.
Yet this is this week's straw man that you have decided will batter all other arguments and posters into submission. Erm, no.
PS I'm not the only poster aggrieved about the taxes issue. I could name at least half a dozen other right-wing economically former Conservative voters who think the same on that, so its hardly unique even if it isn't sufficient on its own.
No you're not, it's true.
However, conflating that with the partying is rather disingenuous. Putting up taxes may piss you off but it doesn't break the law.
It's slightly disturbing that you don't seem to understand the difference.
The Metropolitan Police seem to think that him raising a glass of alcohol at work didn't break the law either, and I expect that Durham Police will find the same thing about his opposite number, so its you that doesn't understand the difference it seems.
Some people are saying its outrageous that the Metropolitan Police didn't fine him for this (and no doubt will find it outrageous if Durham Police do fine their guy) and are saying the Met got it wrong. The Met getting it wrong is certainly possible, they're far from infallible, but if that's the card you want to play then I will say they got it wrong issuing a fine for having cake at work at 1pm. Again, what's sauce for the goose . . . 🤷♂️
I said before the start of this that Boris should go and at the start of this if Boris broke the law its another reason he should go. Since the only fine is for cake, and I think the fine for cake was unreasonable, I don't think "partygate" is a reason for Boris to go. He should still go over taxes though.
The Met issued fines to people at this event. So the event was not legal. So why are you repeating the Peter Bone line that it was legal? You aren't dumb like Peter Bone...
If someone breaks the law at an event, that does not make the event illegal, it means the Police judged the actions of whoever got fined were illegal.
If you and thousands of others go to a concert, but one person who goes to the concert is caught taking or supply drugs by the Police and that individual is fined, then does that make the concert itself an illegal event? No, don't be ridiculous.
Unless we get told why the person who got fined was fined, we don't know what they were fined for, so all we know for certain is the Police believe that they broke the law in some way, not that the event itself was unlawful.
IIRC yesterday Cyclefree said that gatherings cannot intrinsically be either legal or illegal - and she should know.
You may have misunderstood her. frinstance
1.—(1) No person may participate in a gathering in the Tier 1 area which consists of more than six people.
You hate Starmer more for something that never happened than BoZo for all the shit that did.
That is warped.
The attempt to overthrow the Leave vote, by ignoring it, not enacting it, and getting a new vote to overturn it without ever Brexiting, was the most immoral, grotesque and dangerous political endeavour in the history of the modern United Kingdom. It is the exact equivalent - to me - of the Trumpite coup of Jan 6, we just skimped on the guns and flares
I understand that you don’t agree, but I’m not lying about my own opinion to get an argument going
it was also (tho less importantly) utterly counter-productive. By trying to thwart and reverse Brexit completely, Remainers missed multiple chances to get a much softer Brexit, one where we might have retained FoM, or the Single Market, who knows
But instead, driven crazy by the Leave vote, they went for the most extreme position: cancel Brexit, which meant we ended up with the hardest Brexit of all. It is an irony which will - eventually - be enjoyed by connoisseurs of political irony
You hate Starmer more for something that never happened than BoZo for all the shit that did.
That is warped.
The attempt to overthrow the Leave vote, by ignoring it, not enacting it, and getting a new vote to overturn it without ever Brexiting, was the most immoral, grotesque and dangerous political endeavour in the history of the modern United Kingdom.
My anger at Johnson has become a re-direction of my regret at wasting a big chunk of my life following a bunch of silly restrictions.
There must be plenty of people who, deep down, know they messed up by not attending that funeral, or hugging their elderly parents, or stopping their children playing with their friends.
Perhaps @DavidL and @Leon were smart/cynical enough to realise this at the time and the "betrayal" isn't as raw for them. It's toxic for those of us who were fool enough to trust the PM.
Aside from that, the Commons is just a laughing stock now (getting to Scottish Parliament levels of impotence).
I suspect this is very much it. Certainly I used whatever loopholes were available to do whatever needed to be done (for example, I was technically eligible for a support bubble so I took full advantage of that, even though my circumstances in no way fitted the intention of the support bubble) - then again, I was fortunate enough that I didn't have any dealings with hospitals or care homes and their policies which far exceeded what was necessary.
I just looked at my phone Photos for November 2020 ... at no stage do any of them look like this. Try it with your photos... if you can find a party with raised glasses you probably were a Tory politician or SPAD .. that's how bad it is https://mobile.twitter.com/paulmasonnews/status/1528835927279288322
I looked, and found pictures of only two people I don’t live with, for the entire month. FWIW.
Its the whole drinking at work culture which surprises me.
I've not seen any alcohol drunk at my workplace for over 20 years or any work sponsored pub lunches for over 10 years.
I thought this was also the general trend throughout the country.
But not it seems in Downing Street.
Considering how often the bars come up in conversations about politics, I'm surprised at your surprise.
Anyway, I've often had alcohol at work, which makes me struggle to get outraged at either Keir or Boris having the same. I feel sorry that some people are so dry, or so lacking in self-control, that they think alcohol and work can't ever mix.
Unless you're driving of course, that's a different matter. Alcohol and driving don't mix, alcohol and work absolutely can.
The Westminster bars I can understand - the late night sittings, the endless visitors to be entertained, the blokeish atmosphere, the home-away-from-home eating and drinking.
But the drinking while in the office should never have been acceptable and in my experience work sponsored pub and restaurant outings have faded away to leave only the Christmas evening meal remaining (and we've not had those for the last two years because of covid).
But you and others making this argument are guilty of a category error. Politics at a high level - like PM of the UK - just never stops. This is increasingly true with social media and 24/7 news, but it has been true for many decades
Consider the multiple movies and dramas made about Churchill during the Blitz. There are scenes where he is naked in his bath sucking on a cigar and drinking whisky, even as he gives orders to underlings and a Secretary writes down his next speech
Why? Because the work never stopped, so it all blended together. Churchill needed a bath and a cigar and some scotch to relax, but Britain was in a terrible war so the decisions and dilemmas came at him, hourly, and he could not stop entirely
Perhaps a special constable should have marched in and taken the whisky and cigar away and said “You’re not allowed this, Winston, just do your job”?
And of course Number 10 during peak Covid - November-March 2020-21 must have felt like a wartime government
FWIW I agree with @mwadams and Boris’ real sin was lying about this to the Commons. He should have just made my argument. Yes, we drank, because life and work was all of a piece in that terrible time
I think there's a difference between, for example, Thatcher who was a heavy drinker but was always working and on top of the details compared with the current situation where it appears the 'fun' is much more prominent and there's a general slovenly attitude to getting work done.
I’m not sure that’s true. Alcohol has always been closely interwoven with Westminster (perhaps too much, but that’s not my argument)
i can remember when Chancellors would delivery a budget with a tumbler of scotch at the side, in the House, and this was reported as if it was all perfectly normal. I imagine this has now stopped?! But the booze has always been there.
If anything we probably just notice it more because we live in a more censorious and puritan age (outside the home of Boris Johnson)
Gordon Brown stopped it.
Its still permitted. Only during delivery of the budget, but the CofExchq can have a drinky. Not allowed in the chamber any other time
I'm sure I can remember George Osborne having alcohol while delivering the budget and mentioning it. Not sure about any of his successors, and isn't Rishi teetotal anyway?
Boris (per @Cyclefree) could be said to have a legitimate reason for being at the event as it was a "leaving do" and that is something a PM is expected to attend.
However, someone was (apparently) fined for being there. This suggests the police thought it was a party.
No, it doesn't, because the regulations didn't care about parties.
That someone was fined for being there suggests only that police thought that person did not have a reasonable excuse for being present at the gathering.
Ah interesting and yes of course - I'm making the alcohol mistake. Which means that someone might have been passing and popped in and then it was found that they didn't have a reasonable excuse to be there.
Unlike the PM who would have had a reasonable excuse to be there.
I just looked at my phone Photos for November 2020 ... at no stage do any of them look like this. Try it with your photos... if you can find a party with raised glasses you probably were a Tory politician or SPAD .. that's how bad it is https://mobile.twitter.com/paulmasonnews/status/1528835927279288322
I looked, and found pictures of only two people I don’t live with, for the entire month. FWIW.
Its the whole drinking at work culture which surprises me.
I've not seen any alcohol drunk at my workplace for over 20 years or any work sponsored pub lunches for over 10 years.
I thought this was also the general trend throughout the country.
But not it seems in Downing Street.
Considering how often the bars come up in conversations about politics, I'm surprised at your surprise.
Anyway, I've often had alcohol at work, which makes me struggle to get outraged at either Keir or Boris having the same. I feel sorry that some people are so dry, or so lacking in self-control, that they think alcohol and work can't ever mix.
Unless you're driving of course, that's a different matter. Alcohol and driving don't mix, alcohol and work absolutely can.
The Westminster bars I can understand - the late night sittings, the endless visitors to be entertained, the blokeish atmosphere, the home-away-from-home eating and drinking.
But the drinking while in the office should never have been acceptable and in my experience work sponsored pub and restaurant outings have faded away to leave only the Christmas evening meal remaining (and we've not had those for the last two years because of covid).
But you and others making this argument are guilty of a category error. Politics at a high level - like PM of the UK - just never stops. This is increasingly true with social media and 24/7 news, but it has been true for many decades
Consider the multiple movies and dramas made about Churchill during the Blitz. There are scenes where he is naked in his bath sucking on a cigar and drinking whisky, even as he gives orders to underlings and a Secretary writes down his next speech
Why? Because the work never stopped, so it all blended together. Churchill needed a bath and a cigar and some scotch to relax, but Britain was in a terrible war so the decisions and dilemmas came at him, hourly, and he could not stop entirely
Perhaps a special constable should have marched in and taken the whisky and cigar away and said “You’re not allowed this, Winston, just do your job”?
And of course Number 10 during peak Covid - November-March 2020-21 must have felt like a wartime government
FWIW I agree with @mwadams and Boris’ real sin was lying about this to the Commons. He should have just made my argument. Yes, we drank, because life and work was all of a piece in that terrible time
I think there's a difference between, for example, Thatcher who was a heavy drinker but was always working and on top of the details compared with the current situation where it appears the 'fun' is much more prominent and there's a general slovenly attitude to getting work done.
I’m not sure that’s true. Alcohol has always been closely interwoven with Westminster (perhaps too much, but that’s not my argument)
i can remember when Chancellors would delivery a budget with a tumbler of scotch at the side, in the House, and this was reported as if it was all perfectly normal. I imagine this has now stopped?! But the booze has always been there.
If anything we probably just notice it more because we live in a more censorious and puritan age (outside the home of Boris Johnson)
Your comments are quite right. But wholly irrelevant. You're almost as good as the PM at seeking to divert attention from the issue at hand. Any debate about alcohol and work can be safely postponed for a later date. This is about breaking Covid rules in place at the time by having illegal gatherings (not drinking).
Thatcher and Churchill drank their whisky or whatever blissfully unaware of Covid rules. Johnson didn't.
That begs the question of whether Boris knew what the rules were. He should have known — he probably had a part in devising them, did approve them and even read them out on national television. Any normal Prime Minister would have known the rules but then we remember that press conference where Boris at the lectern said something along the lines of, everyone must stay at home and I am looking forward to visiting my mother.
From Eton via Oxford, newspapers and politics, throughout Boris's life he has acted as if rules do not apply to him. Perhaps this is not calculated defiance but arises because his brain is wired not to recognise rules in the first place.
Former Senator David Perdue ended his campaign for governor of Georgia with a racist appeal to Republican primary voters on Monday, accusing Stacey Abrams, the presumptive Democratic nominee, of “demeaning her own race.” https://twitter.com/nytimes/status/1528873446255599617
The truly disgraceful thing is the number of voters who are prepared to support him.
Yep I sat with two people yesterday one of whom has completely turned against Johnson but the other is still in love with him. Two of us were trying to persuade her of a thousand reasons why Boris Johnson is unfit for the office of PM but she still continues to "like Boris".
She's not a graduate and I throw that into the mix with caution because, despite occasionally suggesting otherwise, I don't really like that supercilious 'we know best' attitude. But I think it's pertinent because there's no doubt that Boris is continuing to draw support from non-graduates and those who have failed as yet to see through the magician's sleight of hand. Oh dear, I've just been supercilious. It's hard so don't get angry BR & Co.
It genuinely baffles me how anyone can still support him. And I'd have a lot more respect for the Conservatives if they had not just the bottle but the integrity to remove him.
I often wonder the same about serial philanderers who still manage to convince the next woman that this time they will be faithful. I think some people just really want to believe in Boris because he is, in some way that the rest of us just don't see, charming to a large portion of the population.
I also think there is another sizeable chunk who have no love for the man but see him as a vehicle for their partisan agenda so are happy to overlook the character flaws so long as he is [delivering Brexit; insulting the French; keeping out the migrants]. Unfortunately for him that pragmatic group doesn't now include: cutting taxes; keeping out Corbyn; levelling up; or for that matter "delivering Brexit".
Well indeed I think Boris should be forced out and have said so for about 7 months now but that for me is because he raised taxes and that was a deal-breaker. Had he not done that, I'd be happy for him to stay on, but he did and that's a breach of trust I can't accept.
I think the brouhaha over your guy was drinking alcohol because he's a party animal, my guy was drinking alcohol because he's hard at work campaigning is stupid, hypocritical asinine bullshit that has dominated the public conversation far too much but that doesn't change the fact that Boris should go because he raised taxes.
Everyone has their own red lines and that was my one.
Your red line? Yes. The legal red line? No. Anyone else's red line? Don't be silly.
Yet this is this week's straw man that you have decided will batter all other arguments and posters into submission. Erm, no.
PS I'm not the only poster aggrieved about the taxes issue. I could name at least half a dozen other right-wing economically former Conservative voters who think the same on that, so its hardly unique even if it isn't sufficient on its own.
No you're not, it's true.
However, conflating that with the partying is rather disingenuous. Putting up taxes may piss you off but it doesn't break the law.
It's slightly disturbing that you don't seem to understand the difference.
The Metropolitan Police seem to think that him raising a glass of alcohol at work didn't break the law either, and I expect that Durham Police will find the same thing about his opposite number, so its you that doesn't understand the difference it seems.
Some people are saying its outrageous that the Metropolitan Police didn't fine him for this (and no doubt will find it outrageous if Durham Police do fine their guy) and are saying the Met got it wrong. The Met getting it wrong is certainly possible, they're far from infallible, but if that's the card you want to play then I will say they got it wrong issuing a fine for having cake at work at 1pm. Again, what's sauce for the goose . . . 🤷♂️
I said before the start of this that Boris should go and at the start of this if Boris broke the law its another reason he should go. Since the only fine is for cake, and I think the fine for cake was unreasonable, I don't think "partygate" is a reason for Boris to go. He should still go over taxes though.
The Met issued fines to people at this event. So the event was not legal. So why are you repeating the Peter Bone line that it was legal? You aren't dumb like Peter Bone...
If someone breaks the law at an event, that does not make the event illegal, it means the Police judged the actions of whoever got fined were illegal.
If you and thousands of others go to a concert, but one person who goes to the concert is caught taking or supply drugs by the Police and that individual is fined, then does that make the concert itself an illegal event? No, don't be ridiculous.
Unless we get told why the person who got fined was fined, we don't know what they were fined for, so all we know for certain is the Police believe that they broke the law in some way, not that the event itself was unlawful.
Could yoy upload an mp3 of the sound of one hand clapping? That would clarify things.
Here you go, from when right-on comedians didn't care about "cultural appropriation" it seems, which it seems was only nine years ago.
Former Senator David Perdue ended his campaign for governor of Georgia with a racist appeal to Republican primary voters on Monday, accusing Stacey Abrams, the presumptive Democratic nominee, of “demeaning her own race.” https://twitter.com/nytimes/status/1528873446255599617
The truly disgraceful thing is the number of voters who are prepared to support him.
Yep I sat with two people yesterday one of whom has completely turned against Johnson but the other is still in love with him. Two of us were trying to persuade her of a thousand reasons why Boris Johnson is unfit for the office of PM but she still continues to "like Boris".
She's not a graduate and I throw that into the mix with caution because, despite occasionally suggesting otherwise, I don't really like that supercilious 'we know best' attitude. But I think it's pertinent because there's no doubt that Boris is continuing to draw support from non-graduates and those who have failed as yet to see through the magician's sleight of hand. Oh dear, I've just been supercilious. It's hard so don't get angry BR & Co.
It genuinely baffles me how anyone can still support him. And I'd have a lot more respect for the Conservatives if they had not just the bottle but the integrity to remove him.
I often wonder the same about serial philanderers who still manage to convince the next woman that this time they will be faithful. I think some people just really want to believe in Boris because he is, in some way that the rest of us just don't see, charming to a large portion of the population.
I also think there is another sizeable chunk who have no love for the man but see him as a vehicle for their partisan agenda so are happy to overlook the character flaws so long as he is [delivering Brexit; insulting the French; keeping out the migrants]. Unfortunately for him that pragmatic group doesn't now include: cutting taxes; keeping out Corbyn; levelling up; or for that matter "delivering Brexit".
Well indeed I think Boris should be forced out and have said so for about 7 months now but that for me is because he raised taxes and that was a deal-breaker. Had he not done that, I'd be happy for him to stay on, but he did and that's a breach of trust I can't accept.
I think the brouhaha over your guy was drinking alcohol because he's a party animal, my guy was drinking alcohol because he's hard at work campaigning is stupid, hypocritical asinine bullshit that has dominated the public conversation far too much but that doesn't change the fact that Boris should go because he raised taxes.
Everyone has their own red lines and that was my one.
Your red line? Yes. The legal red line? No. Anyone else's red line? Don't be silly.
Yet this is this week's straw man that you have decided will batter all other arguments and posters into submission. Erm, no.
PS I'm not the only poster aggrieved about the taxes issue. I could name at least half a dozen other right-wing economically former Conservative voters who think the same on that, so its hardly unique even if it isn't sufficient on its own.
No you're not, it's true.
However, conflating that with the partying is rather disingenuous. Putting up taxes may piss you off but it doesn't break the law.
It's slightly disturbing that you don't seem to understand the difference.
The Metropolitan Police seem to think that him raising a glass of alcohol at work didn't break the law either, and I expect that Durham Police will find the same thing about his opposite number, so its you that doesn't understand the difference it seems.
Some people are saying its outrageous that the Metropolitan Police didn't fine him for this (and no doubt will find it outrageous if Durham Police do fine their guy) and are saying the Met got it wrong. The Met getting it wrong is certainly possible, they're far from infallible, but if that's the card you want to play then I will say they got it wrong issuing a fine for having cake at work at 1pm. Again, what's sauce for the goose . . . 🤷♂️
I said before the start of this that Boris should go and at the start of this if Boris broke the law its another reason he should go. Since the only fine is for cake, and I think the fine for cake was unreasonable, I don't think "partygate" is a reason for Boris to go. He should still go over taxes though.
The Met issued fines to people at this event. So the event was not legal. So why are you repeating the Peter Bone line that it was legal? You aren't dumb like Peter Bone...
If someone breaks the law at an event, that does not make the event illegal, it means the Police judged the actions of whoever got fined were illegal.
If you and thousands of others go to a concert, but one person who goes to the concert is caught taking or supply drugs by the Police and that individual is fined, then does that make the concert itself an illegal event? No, don't be ridiculous.
Unless we get told why the person who got fined was fined, we don't know what they were fined for, so all we know for certain is the Police believe that they broke the law in some way, not that the event itself was unlawful.
IIRC yesterday Cyclefree said that gatherings cannot intrinsically be either legal or illegal - and she should know.
You may have misunderstood her. frinstance
1.—(1) No person may participate in a gathering in the Tier 1 area which consists of more than six people.
How does that not make a gathering of 7 people intrinsically illegal?
Read just one line further: (2) Sub-paragraph (1) does not apply if any of the exceptions set out in paragraph 3 applies.
Yes, so you run through the exceptions. if none applies the gathering is intrinsically illegal.
Pedantically, is the gathering itself intrinsically illegal, or is the person to whom the law applies the one that is acting illegally as opposed to the gathering?
If a gathering of 7 occurs, 6 of whom have an exception and 1 of whom does not, then has the 1 not broken the law while the 6 are lawfully gathered?
Former Senator David Perdue ended his campaign for governor of Georgia with a racist appeal to Republican primary voters on Monday, accusing Stacey Abrams, the presumptive Democratic nominee, of “demeaning her own race.” https://twitter.com/nytimes/status/1528873446255599617
The truly disgraceful thing is the number of voters who are prepared to support him.
Yep I sat with two people yesterday one of whom has completely turned against Johnson but the other is still in love with him. Two of us were trying to persuade her of a thousand reasons why Boris Johnson is unfit for the office of PM but she still continues to "like Boris".
She's not a graduate and I throw that into the mix with caution because, despite occasionally suggesting otherwise, I don't really like that supercilious 'we know best' attitude. But I think it's pertinent because there's no doubt that Boris is continuing to draw support from non-graduates and those who have failed as yet to see through the magician's sleight of hand. Oh dear, I've just been supercilious. It's hard so don't get angry BR & Co.
It genuinely baffles me how anyone can still support him. And I'd have a lot more respect for the Conservatives if they had not just the bottle but the integrity to remove him.
I often wonder the same about serial philanderers who still manage to convince the next woman that this time they will be faithful. I think some people just really want to believe in Boris because he is, in some way that the rest of us just don't see, charming to a large portion of the population.
I also think there is another sizeable chunk who have no love for the man but see him as a vehicle for their partisan agenda so are happy to overlook the character flaws so long as he is [delivering Brexit; insulting the French; keeping out the migrants]. Unfortunately for him that pragmatic group doesn't now include: cutting taxes; keeping out Corbyn; levelling up; or for that matter "delivering Brexit".
Well indeed I think Boris should be forced out and have said so for about 7 months now but that for me is because he raised taxes and that was a deal-breaker. Had he not done that, I'd be happy for him to stay on, but he did and that's a breach of trust I can't accept.
I think the brouhaha over your guy was drinking alcohol because he's a party animal, my guy was drinking alcohol because he's hard at work campaigning is stupid, hypocritical asinine bullshit that has dominated the public conversation far too much but that doesn't change the fact that Boris should go because he raised taxes.
Everyone has their own red lines and that was my one.
Your red line? Yes. The legal red line? No. Anyone else's red line? Don't be silly.
Yet this is this week's straw man that you have decided will batter all other arguments and posters into submission. Erm, no.
PS I'm not the only poster aggrieved about the taxes issue. I could name at least half a dozen other right-wing economically former Conservative voters who think the same on that, so its hardly unique even if it isn't sufficient on its own.
No you're not, it's true.
However, conflating that with the partying is rather disingenuous. Putting up taxes may piss you off but it doesn't break the law.
It's slightly disturbing that you don't seem to understand the difference.
The Metropolitan Police seem to think that him raising a glass of alcohol at work didn't break the law either, and I expect that Durham Police will find the same thing about his opposite number, so its you that doesn't understand the difference it seems.
Some people are saying its outrageous that the Metropolitan Police didn't fine him for this (and no doubt will find it outrageous if Durham Police do fine their guy) and are saying the Met got it wrong. The Met getting it wrong is certainly possible, they're far from infallible, but if that's the card you want to play then I will say they got it wrong issuing a fine for having cake at work at 1pm. Again, what's sauce for the goose . . . 🤷♂️
I said before the start of this that Boris should go and at the start of this if Boris broke the law its another reason he should go. Since the only fine is for cake, and I think the fine for cake was unreasonable, I don't think "partygate" is a reason for Boris to go. He should still go over taxes though.
The Met issued fines to people at this event. So the event was not legal. So why are you repeating the Peter Bone line that it was legal? You aren't dumb like Peter Bone...
If someone breaks the law at an event, that does not make the event illegal, it means the Police judged the actions of whoever got fined were illegal.
If you and thousands of others go to a concert, but one person who goes to the concert is caught taking or supply drugs by the Police and that individual is fined, then does that make the concert itself an illegal event? No, don't be ridiculous.
Unless we get told why the person who got fined was fined, we don't know what they were fined for, so all we know for certain is the Police believe that they broke the law in some way, not that the event itself was unlawful.
IIRC yesterday Cyclefree said that gatherings cannot intrinsically be either legal or illegal - and she should know.
You may have misunderstood her. frinstance
1.—(1) No person may participate in a gathering in the Tier 1 area which consists of more than six people.
I just looked at my phone Photos for November 2020 ... at no stage do any of them look like this. Try it with your photos... if you can find a party with raised glasses you probably were a Tory politician or SPAD .. that's how bad it is https://mobile.twitter.com/paulmasonnews/status/1528835927279288322
I looked, and found pictures of only two people I don’t live with, for the entire month. FWIW.
Its the whole drinking at work culture which surprises me.
I've not seen any alcohol drunk at my workplace for over 20 years or any work sponsored pub lunches for over 10 years.
I thought this was also the general trend throughout the country.
But not it seems in Downing Street.
Considering how often the bars come up in conversations about politics, I'm surprised at your surprise.
Anyway, I've often had alcohol at work, which makes me struggle to get outraged at either Keir or Boris having the same. I feel sorry that some people are so dry, or so lacking in self-control, that they think alcohol and work can't ever mix.
Unless you're driving of course, that's a different matter. Alcohol and driving don't mix, alcohol and work absolutely can.
The Westminster bars I can understand - the late night sittings, the endless visitors to be entertained, the blokeish atmosphere, the home-away-from-home eating and drinking.
But the drinking while in the office should never have been acceptable and in my experience work sponsored pub and restaurant outings have faded away to leave only the Christmas evening meal remaining (and we've not had those for the last two years because of covid).
But you and others making this argument are guilty of a category error. Politics at a high level - like PM of the UK - just never stops. This is increasingly true with social media and 24/7 news, but it has been true for many decades
Consider the multiple movies and dramas made about Churchill during the Blitz. There are scenes where he is naked in his bath sucking on a cigar and drinking whisky, even as he gives orders to underlings and a Secretary writes down his next speech
Why? Because the work never stopped, so it all blended together. Churchill needed a bath and a cigar and some scotch to relax, but Britain was in a terrible war so the decisions and dilemmas came at him, hourly, and he could not stop entirely
Perhaps a special constable should have marched in and taken the whisky and cigar away and said “You’re not allowed this, Winston, just do your job”?
And of course Number 10 during peak Covid - November-March 2020-21 must have felt like a wartime government
FWIW I agree with @mwadams and Boris’ real sin was lying about this to the Commons. He should have just made my argument. Yes, we drank, because life and work was all of a piece in that terrible time
I think there's a difference between, for example, Thatcher who was a heavy drinker but was always working and on top of the details compared with the current situation where it appears the 'fun' is much more prominent and there's a general slovenly attitude to getting work done.
Maggie was a heavy drinker? Really? That does surprise me considering her Methodist background, only five hours sleep a night etc.
She was a boozer. Scotch at lunch
Maggie famously only had four or five hours sleep a night. What is less well known is her propensity for an afternoon nap - thereby topping her up to a normal amount of sleep and also allowing her to sleep off the effects of a boozy lunch.
I have often pondered this and whether it contributed to the stroke she had in her 70's.
I knew an Oxford don with a similar 4-5 hr sleep pattern who also went on to have a stroke.
You hate Starmer more for something that never happened than BoZo for all the shit that did.
That is warped.
The attempt to overthrow the Leave vote, by ignoring it, not enacting it, and getting a new vote to overturn it without ever Brexiting, was the most immoral, grotesque and dangerous political endeavour in the history of the modern United Kingdom. It is the exact equivalent - to me - of the Trumpite coup of Jan 6, we just skimped on the guns and flares
I understand that you don’t agree, but I’m not lying about my own opinion to get an argument going
it was also (tho less importantly) utterly counter-productive. By trying to thwart and reverse Brexit completely, Remainers missed multiple chances to get a much softer Brexit, one where we might have retained FoM, or the Single Market, who knows
But instead, driven crazy by the Leave vote, they went for the most extreme position: cancel Brexit, which meant we ended up with the hardest Brexit of all. It is an irony which will - eventually - be enjoyed by connoisseurs of political irony
And now I really AM having my tea. Later
You get what you vote for. And in 2017 we elected a parliament divided who could agree nothing. You're right that in voting down all soft versions of Brexit we ended up with our clown car Brexit. But that is literally parliamentary sovereignty in action. Unchecked by external powers free to vote how it wants.
If you didn't vote for parliament to be absolutely sovereign, what did you vote for? Sovereign doesn't mean it always doing what you think.
Comments
As a proud loyalist surely you were ecstatic when the party won in 1992? Yet you appear to suggest winning then was not the best for the party. So are you saying it is better for the party to lose sometimes, and if so when?
What is Boris Johnson trying to achieve? Other than a series of slogans to keep himself in power?
What is the aim of the wider Conservative Party?
It isn't clear at all.
And the comments about Starmer are just tosh. I am no Starmer fan. I have never ever voted Labour, but there are no grounds to call him a liar (so far
You are just driven mad by Brexit. God knows why. I am a passionate Remainer, but I accepted it. What is wrong with you; you won. Why can't you accept it.
Pubs are open at lunchtime for a reason. They have customers who come in at lunchtime, and yes many of them are people who are on their lunch break. Often, organised lunches at the pub.
I hope for our sake as a nation, that never changes.
Had she lost then Heseltine for example could maybe even have led the Conservatives back to power in 1997 v PM Kinnock
You yourself upthread said the Met are deeply suspect in this. Because its self-evident that they are. We know that if being there is illegal then its fines for all. Hence Sunak getting one. Its an absolute offence. So if the people blurred out got FPNs for being at the piss-up but the person who organised it and led the drinking did not, its frankly silly to try and claim that he was ok to be there and its all above board.
You really should be a Tory MP mate. Your "see, see, there was ALCOHOL" is a far more convincing effort than Grant Shapps managed this morning.
We get massive bus cuts.
Its quite clear that the communications between the Oval Office and Whitehall are as close as they have ever been and the Americans are quite happy to have 'Fizzy Lizzy' kite-flying in saying things first before Biden confirms it.
You get scenes where at 7am Al bursts in on Blair who is naked from the shower but they carry on talking about political issues anyway, and making decisions, then in the evening on busy days (and Covid in 2020 must have made them incredibly busy) the booze comes out at 8pm even as they carry on toiling, gossiping, eating takeaway
Judging by those diaries Number 10 and 11 are fun places to work IF you can tolerate long and intense hours and sometimes do all nighters, the upside of the hard yakka is that its all extremely interesting, and you can get drunk at your desk from time to time
Now it is highly arguable this culture should have stopped for Covid, but I can see why it didn’t, and why Partygate (and Kormagate) occurred
But the drinking while in the office should never have been acceptable and in my experience work sponsored pub and restaurant outings have faded away to leave only the Christmas evening meal remaining (and we've not had those for the last two years because of covid).
The evidence proves that he lied (and the only possible defence people have is that of "weasel words" which is no defence - the intent was to mislead. Almost no-one disputes this bit. And yet still the Tory backbenchers, and the Mail, back Johnson. Though few others, it would seem. The Times and even The Telegraph seem to have abandoned ship.
The moment to bet was surely 4 days ago then.
But seriously, no. Not 4 days ago and not today - a much better bet imo is the Evens available that he survives to the GE. That's juicy.
"Employees are not permitted to consume alcohol when at work out bring it onto Company premises without express permission of management. Any breach of this rule will be treated as gross misconduct and may result in summary dismissal."
This has been the same in the private and public sector. I thought it was standard boilerplate policy used everywhere. No drinking alcohol at work.
And others in different industries might be sacked for doing something that you wouldn't be sacked for.
Since when do we all have to have the same rules? The same terms and conditions?
As a teacher, don't you think that the fact you're working with children means your conditions might be rather different to those that aren't?
Don't you think the fact someone is working with heavy machinery (whether automobiles or factories) might mean they have different health and safety regulations to those that aren't?
A builder might be sacked if they aren't wearing high vis and a hard hat on the site, does that mean you should be sacked as a teacher if you're not wearing high vis and a hard hat?
There’s no getting around it. This is what he did. And he was Shadow Secretary for Brexit. I can see why Starmer is desperate for everyone to forget this and “move on”. But some of us will not. He needs to grovel and apologise and ask for our forgiveness
It is boilerplate policy for many workplaces, but not remotely everywhere.
As visiting any random pub at lunchtime on a workday would probably confirm to you. Hell, haven't we had many conversations about how the pub trade is struggling in cities since people aren't commuting to the office anymore?
Its that Father Ted moment when he explains to Dougal that some things are small, and other things are far away.
(((Dan Hodges)))
@DPJHodges
·
1h
A serious question. Did senior Met police officers attend any "legal" leaving events during lockdown in which alcohol was served. Were any such events held in Scotland Yard, or other Met police stations, during lockdown. Because if they did, it might explain something.
https://twitter.com/DPJHodges/status/1528987996288057344
We are talking about drinking at lunchtime.
I think you are dancing on the head of a pin here, trying to defend the indefensible.
This government are about to pass laws to abolish laws it passed earlier in this parliament as a manifesto commitment. So not even laws in this parliament are sacrosanct - parliament isn't bound by actions in previous sessions never mind previous parliaments. Yet uniquely the referendum must overrule all parliaments that follow and the election result of 2017.
"But they weren't elected to scrap Brexit" I hear you say. Perhaps. Were Boris Johnson and Tory MPs elected to scrap the oven-ready deal? Parliament can literally do whatever it wants to vote for. Thats our system. And by voting to remove the influence of external things like the European Parliament we voted quite literally for the right of this government to scrap its own manifesto.
Yet you foam on about it not being democratic?
So many oddities and unanswered questions wrt the investigation into Downing Street piss-ups.
Consider the multiple movies and dramas made about Churchill during the Blitz. There are scenes where he is naked in his bath sucking on a cigar and drinking whisky, even as he gives orders to underlings and a Secretary writes down his next speech
Why? Because the work never stopped, so it all blended together. Churchill needed a bath and a cigar and some scotch to relax, but Britain was in a terrible war so the decisions and dilemmas came at him, hourly, and he could not stop entirely
Perhaps a special constable should have marched in and taken the whisky and cigar away and said “You’re not allowed this, Winston, just do your job”?
And of course Number 10 during peak Covid - November-March 2020-21 must have felt like a wartime government
FWIW I agree with @mwadams and Boris’ real sin was lying about this to the Commons. He should have just made my argument. Yes, we drank, because life and work was all of a piece in that terrible time
The only reason people are saying Boris attended a party is because there's alcohol present, but alcohol != party. Alcohol != unlawful.
Hodges at least is being consistent, he claimed that Keir having alcohol was unlawful, and he claims that Boris having alcohol was too. He's wrong, but he's consistent, unlike all the hypocrites here whose views change relative to whoever the subject is.
In fact I get the impression that the booze is always out.
This might be deemed acceptable in Downing Street but it seems they don't even have the sense to not send emails encouraging it or not get their mobiles out to provide evidence of it.
It is remarkable to think that we won WW2 with a PM who was half cut virtually all the time
I also note you actually ignored the principle point of my post showing your principle statement was false and attacked the minor (actually quite irrelevant) point I made about Starmer not lying (yet).
Just to reiterate the main point, this forum is full of leavers who want Boris to go (and bizarrely Remainers who want him to stay) as is Parliament, which proves your point that it is bitter remainers is utter nonsense.
And April 2021 regulations for indoor socialising were exactly the same as April 2021 [the infamous "Prince Philip funeral party"]
April 2021 regulations shouldn't have been so onerous, I was saying that in April 2021, but they were. So that card doesn't work I'm afraid.
He didn’t just lie, he was the embodiment of a disgusting Trumpite coup that nearly won the day, and which would have shattered our democracy forever, by telling people there literally is no point in voting, as “they” can just ignore it
And now, I’m having some tea. Kalimera
Drinking at lunchtime is perfectly legitimate in plenty of industries. There is no question about that.
Pubs are open at lunchtime, precisely because they get customers at lunchtime. Again, no question about that.
Pubs have been reporting they've taken a hit to trade since people stopped commuting to work. Again, no question about that.
So what's your point? If the employer permits drinking at lunchtime, its not against terms and conditions and its not illegal.
What makes you so authoritarian and so dry that you find legally drinking at lunchtime to be "indefensible"?
For an experienced full-time Domestic Abuse Practitioner.
Er, did I ask anyone to celebrate? I did not
It is, nonetheless, a cause for celebration. For Londoners
But we need to do so much more. Most big transport projects deliver a positive ROI, we need both the infrastructure and the jobs, we should be getting on with it.
Borrow. Invest. Gain a return on the investment. Reinvest bigger and better. Rinse and Repeat. We used to understand this implicitly, what happened to this country where the response from the media / Tories to almost any investment is "who will pay for it"?
What you're saying is "not the same". Which is the point in your opinion the two sets of rules may have "basically" been the same and "see, see, there was ALCOHOL" is the smoking gun, but nobody is saying the same.
Literally nobody. Not even Desmond Swayne. And yet you foam on and on and on like you are right and everyone else is both wrong and stupid.
https://palife.co.uk/news/boozy-work-lunches-danger-becoming-thing-past-seven-ten-working-brits-no-longer-dream-drinking-lunchtime/
It's a complete minority thing. You can argue it's legitimate or not, but the point is, it's not something people do regularly.
And then we had an election. And that parliament can do whatever the hell it likes. This parliament isn't just free to overturn anything it likes from any other previous parliament including 2017 and 2015, they are overturning manifesto pledge laws passed a couple of years ago in this parliament.
Is Johnson putting laws to parliament to overturn chunks of the core of the manifesto "oven-ready deal" also a "disgusting Trumpite coup"?
i can remember when Chancellors would delivery a budget with a tumbler of scotch at the side, in the House, and this was reported as if it was all perfectly normal. I imagine this has now stopped?! But the booze has always been there.
If anything we probably just notice it more because we live in a more censorious and puritan age (outside the home of Boris Johnson)
https://youtu.be/dMbnfxwus0s?t=188
However, someone was (apparently) fined for being there. This suggests the police thought it was a party.
So the waffer thin line Boris is treading is that he thought it was a leaving do while actually it was a party. Which begs the question of why couldn't everyone use that excuse. Perhaps it was the organiser who was fined. You organised this and it was a party but everyone else thought it was a leaving do.
As @BartholomewRoberts says, the alcohol is irrelevant, save perhaps for helping to convince the police that it was a party after all.
I think it is sufficiently murky for there to be no gotcha moment.
I would love to see all the details from MPS.
Are you saying that minorities are illegitimate? Should we purge minorities from society? Should Parliament not have minorities within it? If Downing Street is representative of minorities is that a problem?
Prime Minister David Cameron, speaking to the British people, from Chatham House, in 2015
'Ultimately it will be the judgment of the British people in the referendum... You will have to judge what is best for you and your family, for your children and grandchildren, for our country, for our future. It will be your decision whether to remain in the EU on the basis of the reforms we secure, or whether we leave. Your decision. Nobody else’s. Not politicians’. Not Parliament’s. Not lobby groups’. Not mine. Just you. You, the British people, will decide. At that moment, you will hold this country’s destiny in your hands. This is a huge decision for our country, perhaps the biggest we will make in our lifetimes. And it will be the final decision.'
Cameron goes on to say this:
'So to those who suggest that a decision in the referendum to leave would merely produce another stronger renegotiation, and then a second referendum in which Britain would stay, I say: think again. The renegotiation is happening right now. And the referendum that follows will be a once in a generation choice. An in or out referendum. When the British people speak, their voice will be respected – not ignored. If we vote to leave, then we will leave. There will not be another renegotiation and another referendum.'
That’s it. Starmer is a vile piece of work
1.—(1) No person may participate in a gathering in the Tier 1 area which consists of more than six people.
https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2020/1374/schedule/1/made
How does that not make a gathering of 7 people intrinsically illegal?
She was a boozer. Scotch at lunch
Decent pay. WFH. Can drink on the job too.
That someone was fined for being there suggests only that police thought that person did not have a reasonable excuse for being present at the gathering.
Thatcher and Churchill drank their whisky or whatever blissfully unaware of Covid rules. Johnson didn't.
We notice it more because the government has been making idiotic mistakes while seemingly half pissed most of the time.
We notice it more because in the real world if people mess up at their work while being half pissed they lose their jobs.
Sentence 1 is the No 10 spun line "not well advised"
[2] is pictoral fact
But this comparable scene in HIMYM got lots of outrage about cultural appropriation when it came out.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vFv5zPDVcbI
That is warped.
Anyway, back to the points I raised. The 2015 parliament committed to progressing with the result. Then we had an election. Which is not bound by anything by any previous parliament. So its perfectly valid for that parliament to seek to act as it sees fit on this and any issue.
To demonstrate this simply, this government in this parliament is to bring forward laws to overturn laws passed by itself just 2 years ago. Laws which were a manifesto promise at the heart of the Tories successful election campaign. It is demonstrably against what people voted for, yet it is also perfectly valid because parliament is sovereign.
He was so confident of a substantial Remain victory that would put the headbangers and Faragistes back in their box. So the terms of the referendum, and all the language he used, was of the form "this will be the settled will of the people, to which we will all cleave". Regardless of the actual legal status.
And (as subsequent events showed) no amount of technical argument could wind back from that position.
There must be plenty of people who, deep down, know they messed up by not attending that funeral, or hugging their elderly parents, or stopping their children playing with their friends.
Perhaps @DavidL and @Leon were smart/cynical enough to realise this at the time and the "betrayal" isn't as raw for them. It's toxic for those of us who were fool enough to trust the PM.
Aside from that, the Commons is just a laughing stock now (getting to Scottish Parliament levels of impotence).
If Keir and Boris are allowed to drink at work (they are) and if they were allowed to work (they are) then they are permitted to drink while working even under Covid regulations.
That's true for both Keir and Boris.
Bonzo is doing us a favour. He is demonstrating that parliamentary sovereignty is absolute. It isn't just free to overturn any legal commitment of previous parliaments. He is about to overturn laws he passed two years ago. Which was very directly the manifesto pledge which saw them secure a big majority.
Whilst I think its funny that the government is overthrowing its own manifesto which so many voted for, its perfectly valid. Parliament can do what it likes.
I understand that you don’t agree, but I’m not lying about my own opinion to get an argument going
it was also (tho less importantly) utterly counter-productive. By trying to thwart and reverse Brexit completely, Remainers missed multiple chances to get a much softer Brexit, one where we might have retained FoM, or the Single Market, who knows
But instead, driven crazy by the Leave vote, they went for the most extreme position: cancel Brexit, which meant we ended up with the hardest Brexit of all. It is an irony which will - eventually - be enjoyed by connoisseurs of political irony
And now I really AM having my tea. Later
Unlike the PM who would have had a reasonable excuse to be there.
What am I missing.
From Eton via Oxford, newspapers and politics, throughout Boris's life he has acted as if rules do not apply to him. Perhaps this is not calculated defiance but arises because his brain is wired not to recognise rules in the first place.
If a gathering of 7 occurs, 6 of whom have an exception and 1 of whom does not, then has the 1 not broken the law while the 6 are lawfully gathered?
I knew an Oxford don with a similar 4-5 hr sleep pattern who also went on to have a stroke.
If you didn't vote for parliament to be absolutely sovereign, what did you vote for? Sovereign doesn't mean it always doing what you think.