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BoJo’s survival makes PM Keir a better bet – politicalbetting.com

SystemSystem Posts: 11,005
edited April 2022 in General
imageBoJo’s survival makes PM Keir a better bet – politicalbetting.com

As can be seen in the betting chart the market on who will be the next prime minister has moved around an enormous amount over the last couple of months. The big loser in betting terms has been Chancellor Sunak and this initially caused a fair bit of money to switch to Keir Starmer.

Read the full story here

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  • Options
    FarooqFarooq Posts: 10,775
    edited April 2022
    Backing Starmer as next PM feel tantamount to betting on the Conservatives to perform well at the local elections. It's a heck of a gamble.
  • Options
    bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 21,821
    Farooq said:

    Backing Starmer as next PM feel tantamount to betting on the Conservatives to perform well at the local elections. It's a heck of a gamble.

    SKSWNBPM
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    QuincelQuincel Posts: 3,949
    Farooq said:

    Backing Starmer as next PM feel tantamount to betting on the Conservatives to perform well at the local elections. It's a heck of a gamble.

    Or that Tory MPs aren't willing to oust him even if they don't, which while far from certain is a pretty plausible outcome.
  • Options
    FarooqFarooq Posts: 10,775

    Farooq said:

    Backing Starmer as next PM feel tantamount to betting on the Conservatives to perform well at the local elections. It's a heck of a gamble.

    SKSWNBPM
    I don't know what all that means, and I probably don't care
  • Options
    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,108
    Quincel said:

    Farooq said:

    Backing Starmer as next PM feel tantamount to betting on the Conservatives to perform well at the local elections. It's a heck of a gamble.

    Or that Tory MPs aren't willing to oust him even if they don't, which while far from certain is a pretty plausible outcome.
    Essentially we're betting on 50%+ of Tory MPs being spineless scumbags with no sense and no integrity.

    Jacob Rees-Mogg and Michael Fabricant alone suggest this is a reasonable bet.
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    Gary_BurtonGary_Burton Posts: 737
    edited April 2022
    I don't know if Johnson will be forced out in Summer/Autumn 2023 or actually fight the next election.

    Unless they're sure of getting a brilliant leader I can sort of see why they'll stick with Johnson.

  • Options
    FarooqFarooq Posts: 10,775
    Quincel said:

    Farooq said:

    Backing Starmer as next PM feel tantamount to betting on the Conservatives to perform well at the local elections. It's a heck of a gamble.

    Or that Tory MPs aren't willing to oust him even if they don't, which while far from certain is a pretty plausible outcome.
    Surely the pragmatism kicks in at some point? I mean, it's one thing abandoning your values completely, but actively preserving the guy who's going to lose you your job is quite another.
  • Options
    FarooqFarooq Posts: 10,775
    ydoethur said:

    Quincel said:

    Farooq said:

    Backing Starmer as next PM feel tantamount to betting on the Conservatives to perform well at the local elections. It's a heck of a gamble.

    Or that Tory MPs aren't willing to oust him even if they don't, which while far from certain is a pretty plausible outcome.
    Essentially we're betting on 50%+ of Tory MPs being spineless scumbags with no sense and no integrity.

    Jacob Rees-Mogg and Michael Fabricant alone suggest this is a reasonable bet.
    Yes, you can take the worst of them and extrapolate, but it'll probably lead you astray. Luckily many Tory MPs are far better people than Oily & Ferret.
  • Options
    kinabalukinabalu Posts: 39,079
    Starmer should be under 5 on Betfair for Next PM. He's still value but I'm not doing it since I'm long at a 'smug city' average 9.4.
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    Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 12,977

    I don't know if Johnson will be forced out in Summer/Autumn 2023 or actually fight the next election.

    Unless they can get a brilliant leader I can sort of see why they'll stick with Johnson.

    Yeah, partygate will be ancient history by then and tories might just think Johnson's cosplay, three word slogan election campaign techniques will work again.
  • Options
    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,108
    Farooq said:

    ydoethur said:

    Quincel said:

    Farooq said:

    Backing Starmer as next PM feel tantamount to betting on the Conservatives to perform well at the local elections. It's a heck of a gamble.

    Or that Tory MPs aren't willing to oust him even if they don't, which while far from certain is a pretty plausible outcome.
    Essentially we're betting on 50%+ of Tory MPs being spineless scumbags with no sense and no integrity.

    Jacob Rees-Mogg and Michael Fabricant alone suggest this is a reasonable bet.
    Yes, you can take the worst of them and extrapolate, but it'll probably lead you astray. Luckily many Tory MPs are far better people than Oily & Ferret.
    Unless a majority are, the point is irrelevant.

    And I didn't take the worst. I didn't say anything about Boris Johnson.
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    Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 26,443
    Reuters forecast: Macron 54%, Le Pen 46%

    Economist forecast: Macron 54%, Le Pen 46%

    https://graphics.reuters.com/FRANCE-ELECTION/POLLS/zjvqkomzlvx/
    https://www.economist.com/interactive/france-2022/forecast
  • Options
    algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 10,494
    IMHO there is a 90% + chance that SKS will be Labour leader at the next election, a 50% chance that SKS (if still leader) he will be the PM after that election, and a 50% chance that something will turn up between now and the next election to require a change of PM before it.

    SKS chance of being next PM therefore a bit less than 25%. Hills at 7/2 about right.

    But for those who are sure Boris will make it to the next election current odds are value.
  • Options
    Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 12,977
    Andy_JS said:

    Reuters forecast: Macron 54%, Le Pen 46%

    Economist forecast: Macron 54%, Le Pen 46%

    https://graphics.reuters.com/FRANCE-ELECTION/POLLS/zjvqkomzlvx/
    https://www.economist.com/interactive/france-2022/forecast

    So what happens in 2027? Macron can't run again and there is no obvious successor unless his Mrs trades him in for a younger model. Iron Tits vs Mélenchon in the final?
  • Options
    kjhkjh Posts: 10,571
    Farooq said:

    Backing Starmer as next PM feel tantamount to betting on the Conservatives to perform well at the local elections. It's a heck of a gamble.

    I get your point but I can't see the Tories dumping him unless it is an off the scale disaster and it isn't looking that bad. And he isn't resigning is he?
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    If we’re going with BoJo, shouldn’t we do SiKeSt too?
  • Options
    FarooqFarooq Posts: 10,775
    kjh said:

    Farooq said:

    Backing Starmer as next PM feel tantamount to betting on the Conservatives to perform well at the local elections. It's a heck of a gamble.

    I get your point but I can't see the Tories dumping him unless it is an off the scale disaster and it isn't looking that bad. And he isn't resigning is he?
    I can see them dumping him, absolutely.
    It's far from nailed on, of course, but it also wouldn't be a shock.
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    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,108
    algarkirk said:

    IMHO there is a 90% + chance that SKS will be Labour leader at the next election,

    Only 90%+?

    They didn’t even get rid of Corbyn. They are not going to ditch Starmer.
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    kinabalukinabalu Posts: 39,079
    Dura_Ace said:

    I don't know if Johnson will be forced out in Summer/Autumn 2023 or actually fight the next election.

    Unless they can get a brilliant leader I can sort of see why they'll stick with Johnson.

    Yeah, partygate will be ancient history by then and tories might just think Johnson's cosplay, three word slogan election campaign techniques will work again.
    BRITAIN DESERVES BETTER is going to be strong for Labour, I think.
  • Options
    Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,789
    ydoethur said:

    Quincel said:

    Farooq said:

    Backing Starmer as next PM feel tantamount to betting on the Conservatives to perform well at the local elections. It's a heck of a gamble.

    Or that Tory MPs aren't willing to oust him even if they don't, which while far from certain is a pretty plausible outcome.
    Essentially we're betting on 50%+ of Tory MPs being spineless scumbags with no sense and no integrity.

    Jacob Rees-Mogg and Michael Fabricant alone suggest this is a reasonable bet.
    I don't think that's even a bet. It's a bears shitting in the woods statement.
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    CatManCatMan Posts: 2,763
    https://twitter.com/BritainElects/status/1515311656552865795

    Westminster voting intention:

    LAB: 38% (+1)
    CON: 33% (-1)
    LDEM: 10% (-)
    GRN: 7% (-)

    via @YouGov
    , 13 - 14 Apr
  • Options
    MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 50,095
    kjh said:

    Farooq said:

    Backing Starmer as next PM feel tantamount to betting on the Conservatives to perform well at the local elections. It's a heck of a gamble.

    I get your point but I can't see the Tories dumping him unless it is an off the scale disaster and it isn't looking that bad. And he isn't resigning is he?
    Focussing on the wrong local elections. He can ride out urban Britain giving him a kicking in 2022.

    He cannot ride out the Shires giving him a good kicking in 2023. Which is when they are up. Boris announces in late May 2023 that he will be departing 10 Downing Street once his successor is in place (or else 70-80 letters go in!!). The leadership contest goes ahead over the summer and he is replaced to a huge standing ovation of gratitude (aka "thank fuck he's gone, now we stand a chance at least next year") at the 2023 Conference.

    SKS will NOT be the next PM. Might win in 2024, but less obvious than a new Tory in their honeymoon period.

    Don't say I didn't tell you.
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    NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,319

    kjh said:

    Farooq said:

    Backing Starmer as next PM feel tantamount to betting on the Conservatives to perform well at the local elections. It's a heck of a gamble.

    I get your point but I can't see the Tories dumping him unless it is an off the scale disaster and it isn't looking that bad. And he isn't resigning is he?
    Focussing on the wrong local elections. He can ride out urban Britain giving him a kicking in 2022.

    He cannot ride out the Shires giving him a good kicking in 2023. Which is when they are up. Boris announces in late May 2023 that he will be departing 10 Downing Street once his successor is in place (or else 70-80 letters go in!!). The leadership contest goes ahead over the summer and he is replaced to a huge standing ovation of gratitude (aka "thank fuck he's gone, now we stand a chance at least next year") at the 2023 Conference.

    SKS will NOT be the next PM. Might win in 2024, but less obvious than a new Tory in their honeymoon period.

    Don't say I didn't tell you.
    Yes, maybe. But (a) he's the great survivor in party terms. Really hard for MPs to shrug off partygate this year and then suddenly discover their unease next year and (b) I wonder how far people are just bored with the Tories, who have been around forever without achieving much except Brexit, and currently feel they're just going through the motions. Will people want another 5 years of them, regardless of whether it's BJ?
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    BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 31,560
    Dura_Ace said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Reuters forecast: Macron 54%, Le Pen 46%

    Economist forecast: Macron 54%, Le Pen 46%

    https://graphics.reuters.com/FRANCE-ELECTION/POLLS/zjvqkomzlvx/
    https://www.economist.com/interactive/france-2022/forecast

    So what happens in 2027? Macron can't run again and there is no obvious successor unless his Mrs trades him in for a younger model. Iron Tits vs Mélenchon in the final?
    There's a lot of 'stuff' to happen between now and 2027. The world may look very different.
  • Options
    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,336
    algarkirk said:

    IMHO there is a 90% + chance that SKS will be Labour leader at the next election, a 50% chance that SKS (if still leader) he will be the PM after that election, and a 50% chance that something will turn up between now and the next election to require a change of PM before it.

    SKS chance of being next PM therefore a bit less than 25%. Hills at 7/2 about right.

    But for those who are sure Boris will make it to the next election current odds are value.

    The problem with a value bet like Starmer next PM, if you like the Betfair markets, is that the value can disappear overnight if the Tories decide to ditch Johnson.
    I prefer Labour most seats at anything above evens (I have a lump on around 2.5).
  • Options
    MikeSmithsonMikeSmithson Posts: 7,382
    Nigelb said:

    algarkirk said:

    IMHO there is a 90% + chance that SKS will be Labour leader at the next election, a 50% chance that SKS (if still leader) he will be the PM after that election, and a 50% chance that something will turn up between now and the next election to require a change of PM before it.

    SKS chance of being next PM therefore a bit less than 25%. Hills at 7/2 about right.

    But for those who are sure Boris will make it to the next election current odds are value.

    The problem with a value bet like Starmer next PM, if you like the Betfair markets, is that the value can disappear overnight if the Tories decide to ditch Johnson.
    I prefer Labour most seats at anything above evens (I have a lump on around 2.5).
    Starmer can become PM even if the Tories win most seats.
  • Options
    MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 50,095

    kjh said:

    Farooq said:

    Backing Starmer as next PM feel tantamount to betting on the Conservatives to perform well at the local elections. It's a heck of a gamble.

    I get your point but I can't see the Tories dumping him unless it is an off the scale disaster and it isn't looking that bad. And he isn't resigning is he?
    Focussing on the wrong local elections. He can ride out urban Britain giving him a kicking in 2022.

    He cannot ride out the Shires giving him a good kicking in 2023. Which is when they are up. Boris announces in late May 2023 that he will be departing 10 Downing Street once his successor is in place (or else 70-80 letters go in!!). The leadership contest goes ahead over the summer and he is replaced to a huge standing ovation of gratitude (aka "thank fuck he's gone, now we stand a chance at least next year") at the 2023 Conference.

    SKS will NOT be the next PM. Might win in 2024, but less obvious than a new Tory in their honeymoon period.

    Don't say I didn't tell you.
    Yes, maybe. But (a) he's the great survivor in party terms. Really hard for MPs to shrug off partygate this year and then suddenly discover their unease next year and (b) I wonder how far people are just bored with the Tories, who have been around forever without achieving much except Brexit, and currently feel they're just going through the motions. Will people want another 5 years of them, regardless of whether it's BJ?
    Not remotely difficult to shrug it off if in 2023 he is still a proven vote loser where the votes are needed, Nick.

    You seem to have forgotten how ruthless the Tory party is!
  • Options
    StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 12,146
    CatMan said:

    https://twitter.com/BritainElects/status/1515311656552865795

    Westminster voting intention:

    LAB: 38% (+1)
    CON: 33% (-1)
    LDEM: 10% (-)
    GRN: 7% (-)

    via @YouGov
    , 13 - 14 Apr

    London
    Lab 47%
    Con 27%
    LD 10%
    Grn 8%

    Rest of South
    Con 38%
    Lab 30%
    LD 15%
    Grn 9%
    Ref 6%

    Midlands and Wales
    Con 43%
    Lab 39%
    Grn 7%
    LD 4%

    North
    Lab 51%
    Con 27%
    LD 8%
    Ref 7%
    Grn 4%

    Scotland
    SNP 42%
    Lab 19%
    Con 18%
    LD 8%
    Grn 7%

  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,937

    CatMan said:

    https://twitter.com/BritainElects/status/1515311656552865795

    Westminster voting intention:

    LAB: 38% (+1)
    CON: 33% (-1)
    LDEM: 10% (-)
    GRN: 7% (-)

    via @YouGov
    , 13 - 14 Apr

    London
    Lab 47%
    Con 27%
    LD 10%
    Grn 8%

    Rest of South
    Con 38%
    Lab 30%
    LD 15%
    Grn 9%
    Ref 6%

    Midlands and Wales
    Con 43%
    Lab 39%
    Grn 7%
    LD 4%

    North
    Lab 51%
    Con 27%
    LD 8%
    Ref 7%
    Grn 4%

    Scotland
    SNP 42%
    Lab 19%
    Con 18%
    LD 8%
    Grn 7%

    Could be worse for the Tories. Still a clear for the Conservatives in the Midlands and South, even if Labour has extended its lead in London and the North
  • Options
    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,336

    Nigelb said:

    algarkirk said:

    IMHO there is a 90% + chance that SKS will be Labour leader at the next election, a 50% chance that SKS (if still leader) he will be the PM after that election, and a 50% chance that something will turn up between now and the next election to require a change of PM before it.

    SKS chance of being next PM therefore a bit less than 25%. Hills at 7/2 about right.

    But for those who are sure Boris will make it to the next election current odds are value.

    The problem with a value bet like Starmer next PM, if you like the Betfair markets, is that the value can disappear overnight if the Tories decide to ditch Johnson.
    I prefer Labour most seats at anything above evens (I have a lump on around 2.5).
    Starmer can become PM even if the Tories win most seats.
    That’s true, but I still prefer the stability of the most seats trading position. It gives you a chance to do other correlated bets around it without being suddenly sabotaged by the Tory selectorate in the next PM market, which is inherently unpredictable, particularly in its timing.
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    Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 12,977



    You seem to have forgotten how ruthless the Tory party is!

    Everybody who isn't a Russian oligarch, financial industry ectoparasite or somehow associated with The Spectator hasn't forgotten.
  • Options
    JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 38,880

    Farooq said:

    Backing Starmer as next PM feel tantamount to betting on the Conservatives to perform well at the local elections. It's a heck of a gamble.

    SKSWNBPM
    For once I utterly agree with you, BJO.

    Sir Keir Starmer Will Neutralise Boris's Prime Ministership.

    Glad we're on the same page.
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    StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 12,146
    edited April 2022
    10/10 Absolutely certain to vote:

    Scotland 60%
    London 58%
    Rest of South 55%
    North 54%
    Midlands and Wales 50%

    Remain 67%
    Leave 59%

    Women 56%
    Men 53%

    2019 vote
    LD 70%
    Lab 67%
    Con 62%

    2022 VI
    Lab 75%
    LD 70%
    Con 70%


    YG 13-15 April
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    CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 39,584
    Dura_Ace said:



    You seem to have forgotten how ruthless the Tory party is!

    Everybody who isn't a Russian oligarch, financial industry ectoparasite or somehow associated with The Spectator hasn't forgotten.
    Hmm, just trying to process the notion of a banking tapeworm with memory loss rather than a financial crotch cricket.
  • Options
    StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 12,146
    HYUFD said:

    CatMan said:

    https://twitter.com/BritainElects/status/1515311656552865795

    Westminster voting intention:

    LAB: 38% (+1)
    CON: 33% (-1)
    LDEM: 10% (-)
    GRN: 7% (-)

    via @YouGov
    , 13 - 14 Apr

    London
    Lab 47%
    Con 27%
    LD 10%
    Grn 8%

    Rest of South
    Con 38%
    Lab 30%
    LD 15%
    Grn 9%
    Ref 6%

    Midlands and Wales
    Con 43%
    Lab 39%
    Grn 7%
    LD 4%

    North
    Lab 51%
    Con 27%
    LD 8%
    Ref 7%
    Grn 4%

    Scotland
    SNP 42%
    Lab 19%
    Con 18%
    LD 8%
    Grn 7%

    Could be worse for the Tories. Still a clear for the Conservatives in the Midlands and South, even if Labour has extended its lead in London and the North
    Agreed. I think Johnson will be bloody delighted with those numbers. Wise Con strategists quite the opposite.
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    StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 12,146

    Nigelb said:

    algarkirk said:

    IMHO there is a 90% + chance that SKS will be Labour leader at the next election, a 50% chance that SKS (if still leader) he will be the PM after that election, and a 50% chance that something will turn up between now and the next election to require a change of PM before it.

    SKS chance of being next PM therefore a bit less than 25%. Hills at 7/2 about right.

    But for those who are sure Boris will make it to the next election current odds are value.

    The problem with a value bet like Starmer next PM, if you like the Betfair markets, is that the value can disappear overnight if the Tories decide to ditch Johnson.
    I prefer Labour most seats at anything above evens (I have a lump on around 2.5).
    Starmer can become PM even if the Tories win most seats.
    Indeed. And that’s actually the most likely outcome at the moment.
  • Options
    Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 26,443

    Nigelb said:

    algarkirk said:

    IMHO there is a 90% + chance that SKS will be Labour leader at the next election, a 50% chance that SKS (if still leader) he will be the PM after that election, and a 50% chance that something will turn up between now and the next election to require a change of PM before it.

    SKS chance of being next PM therefore a bit less than 25%. Hills at 7/2 about right.

    But for those who are sure Boris will make it to the next election current odds are value.

    The problem with a value bet like Starmer next PM, if you like the Betfair markets, is that the value can disappear overnight if the Tories decide to ditch Johnson.
    I prefer Labour most seats at anything above evens (I have a lump on around 2.5).
    Starmer can become PM even if the Tories win most seats.
    Indeed. And that’s actually the most likely outcome at the moment.
    Only by doing a deal with the SNP, which one assumes would include arrangements for another independence referendum.
  • Options
    DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 24,234
    Farooq said:

    Farooq said:

    Backing Starmer as next PM feel tantamount to betting on the Conservatives to perform well at the local elections. It's a heck of a gamble.

    SKSWNBPM
    I don't know what all that means, and I probably don't care
    Sir Keir Starmer will never be Prime Minister. iirc all this started with Ed Miliband.
  • Options

    Farooq said:

    Farooq said:

    Backing Starmer as next PM feel tantamount to betting on the Conservatives to perform well at the local elections. It's a heck of a gamble.

    SKSWNBPM
    I don't know what all that means, and I probably don't care
    Sir Keir Starmer will never be Prime Minister. iirc all this started with Ed Miliband.
    Wasn’t Miliband EIC?
  • Options
    londonpubmanlondonpubman Posts: 3,174
    Andy_JS said:

    Nigelb said:

    algarkirk said:

    IMHO there is a 90% + chance that SKS will be Labour leader at the next election, a 50% chance that SKS (if still leader) he will be the PM after that election, and a 50% chance that something will turn up between now and the next election to require a change of PM before it.

    SKS chance of being next PM therefore a bit less than 25%. Hills at 7/2 about right.

    But for those who are sure Boris will make it to the next election current odds are value.

    The problem with a value bet like Starmer next PM, if you like the Betfair markets, is that the value can disappear overnight if the Tories decide to ditch Johnson.
    I prefer Labour most seats at anything above evens (I have a lump on around 2.5).
    Starmer can become PM even if the Tories win most seats.
    Indeed. And that’s actually the most likely outcome at the moment.
    Only by doing a deal with the SNP, which one assumes would include arrangements for another independence referendum.
    OR

    If CON get say 295 and LAB say 280 then Boris says ok the game's up, Keir you get on with it and we CON will give you some form of unofficial confidence and supply as long as your policies are reasonably palatable. Then LAB don't have to negotiate with other small parties and perhaps a relatively stable government.
  • Options
    StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 12,146

    Farooq said:

    Farooq said:

    Backing Starmer as next PM feel tantamount to betting on the Conservatives to perform well at the local elections. It's a heck of a gamble.

    SKSWNBPM
    I don't know what all that means, and I probably don't care
    Sir Keir Starmer will never be Prime Minister. iirc all this started with Ed Miliband.
    But BJO is no JackW.
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    Andy_JS said:

    Nigelb said:

    algarkirk said:

    IMHO there is a 90% + chance that SKS will be Labour leader at the next election, a 50% chance that SKS (if still leader) he will be the PM after that election, and a 50% chance that something will turn up between now and the next election to require a change of PM before it.

    SKS chance of being next PM therefore a bit less than 25%. Hills at 7/2 about right.

    But for those who are sure Boris will make it to the next election current odds are value.

    The problem with a value bet like Starmer next PM, if you like the Betfair markets, is that the value can disappear overnight if the Tories decide to ditch Johnson.
    I prefer Labour most seats at anything above evens (I have a lump on around 2.5).
    Starmer can become PM even if the Tories win most seats.
    Indeed. And that’s actually the most likely outcome at the moment.
    Only by doing a deal with the SNP, which one assumes would include arrangements for another independence referendum.
    OR

    If CON get say 295 and LAB say 280 then Boris says ok the game's up, Keir you get on with it and we CON will give you some form of unofficial confidence and supply as long as your policies are reasonably palatable. Then LAB don't have to negotiate with other small parties and perhaps a relatively stable government.
    I can't see that. If the election result is unclear and nobody has a majority and Johnson is both still leading the New Party and an MP, he will hang on.

    Constitutionally the PM can stay in office until voted out by parliament. If the numbers you suggest are like that I think he would challenge the Commons to remove him. If he doesn't just illegally shut the place down again - who needs a parliament anyway...
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    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,624



    You seem to have forgotten how ruthless the Tory party is!

    I certainly have because I see no recent evidence for it. Boris showed some ruthlessness when he took action against his rebels pre 2019 GE, but the party? Which let May carry on for 7 months after narrowly winning a leadership contest, even though they remained completely riven and unable to govern?
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,624

    Andy_JS said:

    Nigelb said:

    algarkirk said:

    IMHO there is a 90% + chance that SKS will be Labour leader at the next election, a 50% chance that SKS (if still leader) he will be the PM after that election, and a 50% chance that something will turn up between now and the next election to require a change of PM before it.

    SKS chance of being next PM therefore a bit less than 25%. Hills at 7/2 about right.

    But for those who are sure Boris will make it to the next election current odds are value.

    The problem with a value bet like Starmer next PM, if you like the Betfair markets, is that the value can disappear overnight if the Tories decide to ditch Johnson.
    I prefer Labour most seats at anything above evens (I have a lump on around 2.5).
    Starmer can become PM even if the Tories win most seats.
    Indeed. And that’s actually the most likely outcome at the moment.
    Only by doing a deal with the SNP, which one assumes would include arrangements for another independence referendum.
    OR

    If CON get say 295 and LAB say 280 then Boris says ok the game's up, Keir you get on with it and we CON will give you some form of unofficial confidence and supply as long as your policies are reasonably palatable. Then LAB don't have to negotiate with other small parties and perhaps a relatively stable government.
    I can't see that. If the election result is unclear and nobody has a majority and Johnson is both still leading the New Party and an MP, he will hang on.

    Constitutionally the PM can stay in office until voted out by parliament. If the numbers you suggest are like that I think he would challenge the Commons to remove him. If he doesn't just illegally shut the place down again - who needs a parliament anyway...
    He would definitely do a Brown (and I'm not criticising Brown). It's amazing how many MPs often want someone else to take the heat for them, or take a decision for them, but if the numbers permit several outcomes (even if him remaining would be unlikely), they will need to act, not wait for him to move.
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,624
    Dura_Ace said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Reuters forecast: Macron 54%, Le Pen 46%

    Economist forecast: Macron 54%, Le Pen 46%

    https://graphics.reuters.com/FRANCE-ELECTION/POLLS/zjvqkomzlvx/
    https://www.economist.com/interactive/france-2022/forecast

    So what happens in 2027? Macron can't run again and there is no obvious successor unless his Mrs trades him in for a younger model. Iron Tits vs Mélenchon in the final?
    Last chance saloon for Le Pen, surely - two times a loser is a lot. Sure, no one obvious to replace Macron, but the first round scores are pretty close and fluid, so maybe one of the traditional parties revives.
  • Options
    stodgestodge Posts: 12,822
    Just a bit of fun but if @StuartDickson wants to play the sub-samples game, looking at the equivalent YouGov poll in mid April 2018.

    Nationally Conservatives led Labour 43-38 so a 5% swing to Labour.

    In London, it was 51-34 to Labour compared with 47-27 now so a small swing to Labour. LDs up from 6 to 10 and Greens now 8.

    The 2018 London locals were 44-29-13- 8.6 (Con-Lab-LD- Green) so encouraging for both the LDs and Greens in the capital. The latter in particular are putting up over 800 candidates compared with 1302 for the LDs, 1755 for the Conservatives and it appears a full slate of 1817 Labour candidates.
  • Options
    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,108
    kle4 said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Reuters forecast: Macron 54%, Le Pen 46%

    Economist forecast: Macron 54%, Le Pen 46%

    https://graphics.reuters.com/FRANCE-ELECTION/POLLS/zjvqkomzlvx/
    https://www.economist.com/interactive/france-2022/forecast

    So what happens in 2027? Macron can't run again and there is no obvious successor unless his Mrs trades him in for a younger model. Iron Tits vs Mélenchon in the final?
    Last chance saloon for Le Pen, surely - two times a loser is a lot. Sure, no one obvious to replace Macron, but the first round scores are pretty close and fluid, so maybe one of the traditional parties revives.
    This is her third election. She came third in 2012.

    Bear in mind, her 'party' is more of a family cult. She won't be removed even when she loses. Her supporters will just blame a conspiracy and carry on.
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    MrEdMrEd Posts: 5,578
    kle4 said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Reuters forecast: Macron 54%, Le Pen 46%

    Economist forecast: Macron 54%, Le Pen 46%

    https://graphics.reuters.com/FRANCE-ELECTION/POLLS/zjvqkomzlvx/
    https://www.economist.com/interactive/france-2022/forecast

    So what happens in 2027? Macron can't run again and there is no obvious successor unless his Mrs trades him in for a younger model. Iron Tits vs Mélenchon in the final?
    Last chance saloon for Le Pen, surely - two times a loser is a lot. Sure, no one obvious to replace Macron, but the first round scores are pretty close and fluid, so maybe one of the traditional parties revives.
    Depends - if she makes it let’s say 55/45, she would have improved 10pts+ from last time.

    In last time, FPT, there is a risk the markets are overpricing Macron. The French tend to vote against a particular candidate, rather than for. In that regards, Macron’s high profile, let’s be confrontational strategy is a major risk. Many may decide he’s too much of a prick and vote for Le Pen
  • Options
    Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 25,306

    Farooq said:

    Farooq said:

    Backing Starmer as next PM feel tantamount to betting on the Conservatives to perform well at the local elections. It's a heck of a gamble.

    SKSWNBPM
    I don't know what all that means, and I probably don't care
    Sir Keir Starmer will never be Prime Minister. iirc all this started with Ed Miliband.
    Wasn’t Miliband EIC?
    EICWNBPM was, I believe, the full acronym.
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    murali_smurali_s Posts: 3,040

    Farooq said:

    Farooq said:

    Backing Starmer as next PM feel tantamount to betting on the Conservatives to perform well at the local elections. It's a heck of a gamble.

    SKSWNBPM
    I don't know what all that means, and I probably don't care
    Sir Keir Starmer will never be Prime Minister. iirc all this started with Ed Miliband.
    EICIPM - I think that's what it was.

    Ed was crap and to be honest I had a soft spot for him. However, he was less crap than Cameron and years of chaos ensued (cf that famous Cameron tweet).
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    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,624
    kinabalu said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    I don't know if Johnson will be forced out in Summer/Autumn 2023 or actually fight the next election.

    Unless they can get a brilliant leader I can sort of see why they'll stick with Johnson.

    Yeah, partygate will be ancient history by then and tories might just think Johnson's cosplay, three word slogan election campaign techniques will work again.
    BRITAIN DESERVES BETTER is going to be strong for Labour, I think.
    Depends on the self esteem of the British psyche about whether we do, in fact, deserve better.
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    Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 25,306
    murali_s said:

    Farooq said:

    Farooq said:

    Backing Starmer as next PM feel tantamount to betting on the Conservatives to perform well at the local elections. It's a heck of a gamble.

    SKSWNBPM
    I don't know what all that means, and I probably don't care
    Sir Keir Starmer will never be Prime Minister. iirc all this started with Ed Miliband.
    EICIPM - I think that's what it was.

    Ed was crap and to be honest I had a soft spot for him. However, he was less crap than Cameron and years of chaos ensued (cf that famous Cameron tweet).
    That was one that was used every time he got a good poll showing.

    By the way I know what I said above wasn't actually an acronym.
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    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,108
    kle4 said:

    kinabalu said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    I don't know if Johnson will be forced out in Summer/Autumn 2023 or actually fight the next election.

    Unless they can get a brilliant leader I can sort of see why they'll stick with Johnson.

    Yeah, partygate will be ancient history by then and tories might just think Johnson's cosplay, three word slogan election campaign techniques will work again.
    BRITAIN DESERVES BETTER is going to be strong for Labour, I think.
    Depends on the self esteem of the British psyche about whether we do, in fact, deserve better.
    The refreshing thing about that slogan is Starmer is the first Labour leader in 15 years to quote Tony Blair.
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,624
    ydoethur said:

    kle4 said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Reuters forecast: Macron 54%, Le Pen 46%

    Economist forecast: Macron 54%, Le Pen 46%

    https://graphics.reuters.com/FRANCE-ELECTION/POLLS/zjvqkomzlvx/
    https://www.economist.com/interactive/france-2022/forecast

    So what happens in 2027? Macron can't run again and there is no obvious successor unless his Mrs trades him in for a younger model. Iron Tits vs Mélenchon in the final?
    Last chance saloon for Le Pen, surely - two times a loser is a lot. Sure, no one obvious to replace Macron, but the first round scores are pretty close and fluid, so maybe one of the traditional parties revives.
    This is her third election. She came third in 2012.

    Bear in mind, her 'party' is more of a family cult. She won't be removed even when she loses. Her supporters will just blame a conspiracy and carry on.
    Sure, but the first round votes are pretty spread so missing out on the top two may not be that devastating especially if the traditional parties are doing ok. But getting into the final two and not managing it either time?

    Sure, she may get closer than 2017, which was a lot better than her dad, but based on that trend might as well decide Marion will end up winning in 2032.
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    stodgestodge Posts: 12,822
    MrEd said:


    Depends - if she makes it let’s say 55/45, she would have improved 10pts+ from last time.

    In last time, FPT, there is a risk the markets are overpricing Macron. The French tend to vote against a particular candidate, rather than for. In that regards, Macron’s high profile, let’s be confrontational strategy is a major risk. Many may decide he’s too much of a prick and vote for Le Pen

    A fair dollop of wishful thinking here.

    There is a mechanism to cast a Blank or Null vote in France and 3 million did that last time including 17% of those who voted for Melenchon. I suspect we'll see a fair bit of that and abstentions as well.

    Last time, Macron led Le Pen by a million after round one and won in the end by 10 million. This time, he starts 1.7 million ahead and I think he'll end up 4-5 Million ahead. Le Pen will get most of the Zemmour supporters but the two important blocs are the 7.7 million Melenchon first round voters and the 7 million who didn't vote for any of the top four.
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    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,624

    Farooq said:

    Farooq said:

    Backing Starmer as next PM feel tantamount to betting on the Conservatives to perform well at the local elections. It's a heck of a gamble.

    SKSWNBPM
    I don't know what all that means, and I probably don't care
    Sir Keir Starmer will never be Prime Minister. iirc all this started with Ed Miliband.
    Wasn’t Miliband EIC?
    EICWNBPM was, I believe, the full acronym.
    My recollection was the contrary EICIPM was actually more common, but that may be false perception.
  • Options
    Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 25,306
    kle4 said:

    Farooq said:

    Farooq said:

    Backing Starmer as next PM feel tantamount to betting on the Conservatives to perform well at the local elections. It's a heck of a gamble.

    SKSWNBPM
    I don't know what all that means, and I probably don't care
    Sir Keir Starmer will never be Prime Minister. iirc all this started with Ed Miliband.
    Wasn’t Miliband EIC?
    EICWNBPM was, I believe, the full acronym.
    My recollection was the contrary EICIPM was actually more common, but that may be false perception.
    You're probably right.
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    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,937
    edited April 2022
    Andy_JS said:

    Nigelb said:

    algarkirk said:

    IMHO there is a 90% + chance that SKS will be Labour leader at the next election, a 50% chance that SKS (if still leader) he will be the PM after that election, and a 50% chance that something will turn up between now and the next election to require a change of PM before it.

    SKS chance of being next PM therefore a bit less than 25%. Hills at 7/2 about right.

    But for those who are sure Boris will make it to the next election current odds are value.

    The problem with a value bet like Starmer next PM, if you like the Betfair markets, is that the value can disappear overnight if the Tories decide to ditch Johnson.
    I prefer Labour most seats at anything above evens (I have a lump on around 2.5).
    Starmer can become PM even if the Tories win most seats.
    Indeed. And that’s actually the most likely outcome at the moment.
    Only by doing a deal with the SNP, which one assumes would include arrangements for another independence referendum.
    Electoral Calculus gives Labour 307 and Conservatives 255 on today's Yougov. In which case Starmer could ignore the SNP. Would be 2010 in reverse effectively

    https://www.electoralcalculus.co.uk/fcgi-bin/usercode.py?scotcontrol=Y&CON=33&LAB=38&LIB=10&Reform=2&Green=3&UKIP=&TVCON=&TVLAB=&TVLIB=&TVReform=&TVGreen=&TVUKIP=&SCOTCON=18.3&SCOTLAB=20.2&SCOTLIB=6.6&SCOTReform=0.9&SCOTGreen=3&SCOTUKIP=&SCOTNAT=48&display=AllChanged&regorseat=(none)&boundary=2019nbbase
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,624

    kle4 said:

    Farooq said:

    Farooq said:

    Backing Starmer as next PM feel tantamount to betting on the Conservatives to perform well at the local elections. It's a heck of a gamble.

    SKSWNBPM
    I don't know what all that means, and I probably don't care
    Sir Keir Starmer will never be Prime Minister. iirc all this started with Ed Miliband.
    Wasn’t Miliband EIC?
    EICWNBPM was, I believe, the full acronym.
    My recollection was the contrary EICIPM was actually more common, but that may be false perception.
    You're probably right.
    There's a first time for everything.
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    NorthofStokeNorthofStoke Posts: 1,758
    Bojo going will be slowly at first then quickly.
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    williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 48,011
    @yarotrof
    Russia confirms that Maj Gen Vladimir Frolov, deputy commander of the 8th Army, was killed in combat in Ukraine.


    https://twitter.com/yarotrof/status/1515343018471006212
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,624

    @yarotrof
    Russia confirms that Maj Gen Vladimir Frolov, deputy commander of the 8th Army, was killed in combat in Ukraine.


    https://twitter.com/yarotrof/status/1515343018471006212

    I thought one benefit of being a senior officer of that level was not needing be in such mortal danger...
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    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,108
    kle4 said:

    @yarotrof
    Russia confirms that Maj Gen Vladimir Frolov, deputy commander of the 8th Army, was killed in combat in Ukraine.


    https://twitter.com/yarotrof/status/1515343018471006212

    I thought one benefit of being a senior officer of that level was not needing be in such mortal danger...
    Do we know for sure he wasn't the messenger who had to tell Putin about the Moskva?
  • Options
    SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 15,489
    Politico.com - Letter from Alaska: ‘I Just Think Sarah These Days Is Not a Person to Be Taken Seriously’
    Alaskans are tired of Sarah Palin. In 2022, in the country’s wildest congressional race, she could win anyway.

    https://www.politico.com/news/magazine/2022/04/16/sarah-palin-alaska-00025449

    WASILLA, Alaska — About 70 miles up the road from Sarah Palin’s home on Lake Lucille, there’s a propane, gift and souvenir store set behind a snowbank where Mike Carpenter, the owner, will turn on Newsmax, smoke a Winston White and say this about the state’s celebrity former governor: “One way you might describe Sarah Palin is she knows which bathroom to use.”

    When she announced her run for Congress on the April 1 filing deadline, he said to himself, “Thank God.”

    There were years, Carpenter recalled, when most other people felt that way about Palin here, too. But if this was once Palin Country — “Sarah Palin’s Alaska,” was the name of the reality show — and Palin had the stratospheric poll numbers to back it up, her signature on the state today, as she runs again statewide, has become vanishingly small.

    In Wasilla, Palin’s hometown, there is no longer a “Palin Fever” banner hanging at the Mocha Moose. Glenna Edwards, who once designed and sold Palin-inspired bumper stickers at her medical supply store in town, told me, “I’m sorry to tell you, I’m not a supporter anymore.” And at a meeting of local Republicans at the Mat-Su Family Restaurant last weekend, it looked particularly deflating for her. As one of her most credible competitors in the House race, Nick Begich III, joked in front of the room about Palin dancing “in a bear costume singing a song,” Republicans in the audience chuckled along. . . .

    “She’s not seen around much,” Shelley Hughes, the Republican state Senate majority leader, told me as the meeting at the Mat-Su broke up.

    Jay Ramras, a former Republican state lawmaker who owns Pike’s Waterfront Lodge in Fairbanks, had told me the day before in his hotel lobby, “Don’t beat up on Sarah Palin.” But he also said: “She’s perceived a little bit as a carpetbagger in her home state.” . . .

    Here in Alaska, she also personifies the tension between local and national politics, and her candidacy could be a referendum on which matters more. She is deeply unpopular in her home state. The longtime pollster Ivan Moore of Alaska Survey Research last registered her favorability rating, in October, at 31 percent. And yet, she still could win. In a poll commissioned by the conservative website Must Read Alaska, Palin led all other candidates, with 31 percent support. Al Gross, who is running as an independent after his failed Senate race in the state in 2020, was second, with 26 percent, followed by Begich, scion of an Alaska political dynasty, at 21 percent. . . .

    “Our state is goofy as shit,” he said. . . .
  • Options
    williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 48,011
    ydoethur said:

    kle4 said:

    @yarotrof
    Russia confirms that Maj Gen Vladimir Frolov, deputy commander of the 8th Army, was killed in combat in Ukraine.


    https://twitter.com/yarotrof/status/1515343018471006212

    I thought one benefit of being a senior officer of that level was not needing be in such mortal danger...
    Do we know for sure he wasn't the messenger who had to tell Putin about the Moskva?
    I wouldn't like to be the weatherman who gets blamed for the storm.
  • Options
    BigRichBigRich Posts: 3,489

    @yarotrof
    Russia confirms that Maj Gen Vladimir Frolov, deputy commander of the 8th Army, was killed in combat in Ukraine.


    https://twitter.com/yarotrof/status/1515343018471006212

    That is good to hear :)

    Its been a brake of 3 weeks or so since this last killing of a high profile ranking Russian army officer (not including the Captain of Muscva) So I was beginning to think ether the Ukrainians no longer had the right type of Drones or that maybe the Russians had got better.
  • Options
    FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,503

    kjh said:

    Farooq said:

    Backing Starmer as next PM feel tantamount to betting on the Conservatives to perform well at the local elections. It's a heck of a gamble.

    I get your point but I can't see the Tories dumping him unless it is an off the scale disaster and it isn't looking that bad. And he isn't resigning is he?
    Focussing on the wrong local elections. He can ride out urban Britain giving him a kicking in 2022.

    He cannot ride out the Shires giving him a good kicking in 2023. Which is when they are up. Boris announces in late May 2023 that he will be departing 10 Downing Street once his successor is in place (or else 70-80 letters go in!!). The leadership contest goes ahead over the summer and he is replaced to a huge standing ovation of gratitude (aka "thank fuck he's gone, now we stand a chance at least next year") at the 2023 Conference.

    SKS will NOT be the next PM. Might win in 2024, but less obvious than a new Tory in their honeymoon period.

    Don't say I didn't tell you.
    I dont think the record supports the notion that the Tories are ruthless with their leaders.

    The key issue will be if another leading candidate offers a better chance of survival. Mrs Thatcher and Mrs May had become major electoral liabilities certainly, but there were also in each case several strong alternatives.

    If we look at the alternatives to Big Dog, who are the candidates that offer that possibility? None stands out and there is the possibility of worse. Best hold onto nurse for fear of finding something worse. Indeed many Tories are probably glad that Sunak didnt take over this last winter.
  • Options
    SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 15,489
    edited April 2022
    Republican Poll re: Alaska's Very Special Congressional Election:

    https://mustreadalaska.com/new-must-read-alaska-poll-sarah-palin-nick-begich-are-top-two-republicans-on-the-ballot-for-congress/

    The survey asked questions of 955 likely 2022 primary voters, such as: “Of several possible candidates in the 2022 election for Congress, if the election were held today, for whom would you vote?” The response was:

    Sarah Palin: 31%
    Al Gross: 26%
    Nick Begich: 21%
    Christopher Constant: 7%
    Josh Revak: 3%
    Tara Sweeney: 2%
    Another candidate not listed: 4%
    Undecided: 6%

    This result contradicts a poll advertised by candidate Gross in his fundraising push to his national audience, which says Palin has 42%, Gross has 40%, and 18% are undecided.

    The MRAK poll was conducted by a major national polling firm, Remington Research Strategies, which has a B rating from FiveThirtyEight.com for accuracy. It is the first known major poll to be conducted in Alaska in the race to replace the late Congressman Don Young, since his death on March 18.

    Between April 7-9, surveyors asked likely primary voters in Juneau, Anchorage, and Fairbanks a series of questions about some of the more well-known names on the primary ballot. . . .


    When asked their favorable/unfavorable opinion about Republican Sarah Palin:
    37% said their opinion was favorable.
    51% said they have an unfavorable opinion of Palin.
    12% had no opinion of the former Alaska governor.

    When asked their opinion about Republican Nick Begich:
    28% were favorable.
    30% were unfavorable.
    42% had no opinion.

    The same question was asked about Republican Josh Revak. Responses were:
    8% were favorable.
    29% were unfavorable.
    63% had no opinion.

    Democrat-backed candidate Al Gross, who ran for Senate in 2020 against Sen. Dan Sullivan, drew these responses:
    32% favorable.
    51% unfavorable.
    17% with no opinion.

    The polling on Palin shows the former governor can’t lean on former President Donald Trump’s endorsement for support without risk. When asked, “Are you more likely or less likely to support Sarah Palin if you know that Donald Trump supports her candidacy?” the overall result was:

    29% were more likely to vote for Palin.
    48% were less likely.
    23% said it made no difference to them.

    By region the breakdown shows the former governor cannot use Trump without losing support:

    Juneau: 16% said a Trump endorsement would make them more likely to vote for Palin, while 73% of respondents said the Trump endorsement would make them less likely to vote for Palin.

    Fairbanks: 38% said a Trump endorsement would make them more likely to vote Palin, while 33% said it it would make them less likely.

    Anchorage: 30% said a Trump endorsement would make them more likely to vote for Palin, while 45% said the Trump endorsement would make them less likely. . . .

    SSI - not sure how many (if any) were polled in rural villages.
  • Options
    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,108
    BigRich said:

    @yarotrof
    Russia confirms that Maj Gen Vladimir Frolov, deputy commander of the 8th Army, was killed in combat in Ukraine.


    https://twitter.com/yarotrof/status/1515343018471006212

    That is good to hear :)

    Its been a brake of 3 weeks or so since this last killing of a high profile ranking Russian army officer (not including the Captain of Muscva) So I was beginning to think ether the Ukrainians no longer had the right type of Drones or that maybe the Russians had got better.
    Perhaps they've found some iPhones instead of the stuff they were using?
  • Options
    BigRichBigRich Posts: 3,489
    back to the Sinking of the Russian Flagship Moskova.

    It seems that the Russian Orthodox Church had placed one of there relocks on the ship, a fragment from the cross that Jesus was crucified on. That has presumably gone down with the Ship.

    (Please can we not argue about weather it was really a fragment of the cross, HYDF will say one thing and everybody else the other and we will be here all night, so please lets not go down that road. However the significant thing here is the Russian Orthodox Church pronated that it was. and this shoes:

    1) The ridiculously close relationship between the Russian Orthodox Church, and the Russian State and armed forces. Whatever ones opinion of the separation of church and state, Russia today is at an absolute extreme end of this spectrum.

    2) The Russians really did not expect this ship to be sunk.

    Link: https://tass.com/society/1123855?utm_source=wlord.org&utm_medium=referral&utm_campaign=wlord.org&utm_referrer=wlord.org
  • Options
    FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,503
    BigRich said:

    @yarotrof
    Russia confirms that Maj Gen Vladimir Frolov, deputy commander of the 8th Army, was killed in combat in Ukraine.


    https://twitter.com/yarotrof/status/1515343018471006212

    That is good to hear :)

    Its been a brake of 3 weeks or so since this last killing of a high profile ranking Russian army officer (not including the Captain of Muscva) So I was beginning to think ether the Ukrainians no longer had the right type of Drones or that maybe the Russians had got better.
    Died in mid March near Mykolaev. Funeral was the report, not death.

    https://twitter.com/EuromaidanPress/status/1515358532853551113?t=4mmp3NSSkj8gI8eUvSvszw&s=19
  • Options
    darkagedarkage Posts: 4,787
    Just remember, however bad things get with Boris, it would be worse with Corbyn. Out of NATO, no NLAWs to Ukraine, no special forces in Ukraine, he would be embarrassing us on the world stage with calls for peace and dialogue with Russia. We really dodged a bullet in 2019, thanks largely to the politics of Brexit. Funny how these things go.
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    NorthofStokeNorthofStoke Posts: 1,758
    Foxy said:

    kjh said:

    Farooq said:

    Backing Starmer as next PM feel tantamount to betting on the Conservatives to perform well at the local elections. It's a heck of a gamble.

    I get your point but I can't see the Tories dumping him unless it is an off the scale disaster and it isn't looking that bad. And he isn't resigning is he?
    Focussing on the wrong local elections. He can ride out urban Britain giving him a kicking in 2022.

    He cannot ride out the Shires giving him a good kicking in 2023. Which is when they are up. Boris announces in late May 2023 that he will be departing 10 Downing Street once his successor is in place (or else 70-80 letters go in!!). The leadership contest goes ahead over the summer and he is replaced to a huge standing ovation of gratitude (aka "thank fuck he's gone, now we stand a chance at least next year") at the 2023 Conference.

    SKS will NOT be the next PM. Might win in 2024, but less obvious than a new Tory in their honeymoon period.

    Don't say I didn't tell you.
    I dont think the record supports the notion that the Tories are ruthless with their leaders.

    The key issue will be if another leading candidate offers a better chance of survival. Mrs Thatcher and Mrs May had become major electoral liabilities certainly, but there were also in each case several strong alternatives.

    If we look at the alternatives to Big Dog, who are the candidates that offer that possibility? None stands out and there is the possibility of worse. Best hold onto nurse for fear of finding something worse. Indeed many Tories are probably glad that Sunak didnt take over this last winter.
    If Bojo's stock falls enough there will be plenty better candidates.
  • Options
    NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,319

    Republican Poll re: Alaska's Very Special Congressional Election:

    https://mustreadalaska.com/new-must-read-alaska-poll-sarah-palin-nick-begich-are-top-two-republicans-on-the-ballot-for-congress/

    The survey asked questions of 955 likely 2022 primary voters, such as: “Of several possible candidates in the 2022 election for Congress, if the election were held today, for whom would you vote?” The response was:

    Sarah Palin: 31%
    Al Gross: 26%
    Nick Begich: 21%
    Christopher Constant: 7%
    Josh Revak: 3%
    Tara Sweeney: 2%
    Another candidate not listed: 4%
    Undecided: 6%

    This result contradicts a poll advertised by candidate Gross in his fundraising push to his national audience, which says Palin has 42%, Gross has 40%, and 18% are undecided.

    Is it FPTP or is there a run-off, SSI?
  • Options
    FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,503

    Foxy said:

    kjh said:

    Farooq said:

    Backing Starmer as next PM feel tantamount to betting on the Conservatives to perform well at the local elections. It's a heck of a gamble.

    I get your point but I can't see the Tories dumping him unless it is an off the scale disaster and it isn't looking that bad. And he isn't resigning is he?
    Focussing on the wrong local elections. He can ride out urban Britain giving him a kicking in 2022.

    He cannot ride out the Shires giving him a good kicking in 2023. Which is when they are up. Boris announces in late May 2023 that he will be departing 10 Downing Street once his successor is in place (or else 70-80 letters go in!!). The leadership contest goes ahead over the summer and he is replaced to a huge standing ovation of gratitude (aka "thank fuck he's gone, now we stand a chance at least next year") at the 2023 Conference.

    SKS will NOT be the next PM. Might win in 2024, but less obvious than a new Tory in their honeymoon period.

    Don't say I didn't tell you.
    I dont think the record supports the notion that the Tories are ruthless with their leaders.

    The key issue will be if another leading candidate offers a better chance of survival. Mrs Thatcher and Mrs May had become major electoral liabilities certainly, but there were also in each case several strong alternatives.

    If we look at the alternatives to Big Dog, who are the candidates that offer that possibility? None stands out and there is the possibility of worse. Best hold onto nurse for fear of finding something worse. Indeed many Tories are probably glad that Sunak didnt take over this last winter.
    If Bojo's stock falls enough there will be plenty better candidates.
    One thing Johnson is good at is getting rid of rivals.
  • Options
    SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 15,489

    Republican Poll re: Alaska's Very Special Congressional Election:

    https://mustreadalaska.com/new-must-read-alaska-poll-sarah-palin-nick-begich-are-top-two-republicans-on-the-ballot-for-congress/

    The survey asked questions of 955 likely 2022 primary voters, such as: “Of several possible candidates in the 2022 election for Congress, if the election were held today, for whom would you vote?” The response was:

    Sarah Palin: 31%
    Al Gross: 26%
    Nick Begich: 21%
    Christopher Constant: 7%
    Josh Revak: 3%
    Tara Sweeney: 2%
    Another candidate not listed: 4%
    Undecided: 6%

    This result contradicts a poll advertised by candidate Gross in his fundraising push to his national audience, which says Palin has 42%, Gross has 40%, and 18% are undecided.

    Is it FPTP or is there a run-off, SSI?
    Special election primary June 11 = top 4 (out of 51 candidates who filed) advance to special general election

    Special general election August 16 (same day as regular primary = ranked choice voting among Top 4
  • Options
    OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 15,050
    darkage said:

    Just remember, however bad things get with Boris, it would be worse with Corbyn. Out of NATO, no NLAWs to Ukraine, no special forces in Ukraine, he would be embarrassing us on the world stage with calls for peace and dialogue with Russia. We really dodged a bullet in 2019, thanks largely to the politics of Brexit. Funny how these things go.

    Yeah thank God we haven't got a leader who embarrasses us on the world stage.
  • Options
    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,108
    IshmaelZ said:

    BigRich said:

    back to the Sinking of the Russian Flagship Moskova.

    It seems that the Russian Orthodox Church had placed one of there relocks on the ship, a fragment from the cross that Jesus was crucified on. That has presumably gone down with the Ship.

    (Please can we not argue about weather it was really a fragment of the cross, HYDF will say one thing and everybody else the other and we will be here all night, so please lets not go down that road. However the significant thing here is the Russian Orthodox Church pronated that it was. and this shoes:

    1) The ridiculously close relationship between the Russian Orthodox Church, and the Russian State and armed forces. Whatever ones opinion of the separation of church and state, Russia today is at an absolute extreme end of this spectrum.

    2) The Russians really did not expect this ship to be sunk.

    Link: https://tass.com/society/1123855?utm_source=wlord.org&utm_medium=referral&utm_campaign=wlord.org&utm_referrer=wlord.org

    As I have already said the test is whether the ship rises again on the third day
    I don't think it will be called the Rabboni if it does...
  • Options
    MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 50,095
  • Options
    kjhkjh Posts: 10,571
    BigRich said:

    back to the Sinking of the Russian Flagship Moskova.

    It seems that the Russian Orthodox Church had placed one of there relocks on the ship, a fragment from the cross that Jesus was crucified on. That has presumably gone down with the Ship.

    (Please can we not argue about weather it was really a fragment of the cross, HYDF will say one thing and everybody else the other and we will be here all night, so please lets not go down that road. However the significant thing here is the Russian Orthodox Church pronated that it was. and this shoes:

    1) The ridiculously close relationship between the Russian Orthodox Church, and the Russian State and armed forces. Whatever ones opinion of the separation of church and state, Russia today is at an absolute extreme end of this spectrum.

    2) The Russians really did not expect this ship to be sunk.

    Link: https://tass.com/society/1123855?utm_source=wlord.org&utm_medium=referral&utm_campaign=wlord.org&utm_referrer=wlord.org

    Oh please can we argue about a piece of wood?
  • Options
    MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 50,095
    edited April 2022
    IshmaelZ said:

    BigRich said:

    back to the Sinking of the Russian Flagship Moskova.

    It seems that the Russian Orthodox Church had placed one of there relocks on the ship, a fragment from the cross that Jesus was crucified on. That has presumably gone down with the Ship.

    (Please can we not argue about weather it was really a fragment of the cross, HYDF will say one thing and everybody else the other and we will be here all night, so please lets not go down that road. However the significant thing here is the Russian Orthodox Church pronated that it was. and this shoes:

    1) The ridiculously close relationship between the Russian Orthodox Church, and the Russian State and armed forces. Whatever ones opinion of the separation of church and state, Russia today is at an absolute extreme end of this spectrum.

    2) The Russians really did not expect this ship to be sunk.

    Link: https://tass.com/society/1123855?utm_source=wlord.org&utm_medium=referral&utm_campaign=wlord.org&utm_referrer=wlord.org

    As I have already said the test is whether the ship rises again on the third day
    On the fourth day, Putin starts watching the Reanimator moviesdocumentaries.
  • Options
    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,108
    kjh said:

    BigRich said:

    back to the Sinking of the Russian Flagship Moskova.

    It seems that the Russian Orthodox Church had placed one of there relocks on the ship, a fragment from the cross that Jesus was crucified on. That has presumably gone down with the Ship.

    (Please can we not argue about weather it was really a fragment of the cross, HYDF will say one thing and everybody else the other and we will be here all night, so please lets not go down that road. However the significant thing here is the Russian Orthodox Church pronated that it was. and this shoes:

    1) The ridiculously close relationship between the Russian Orthodox Church, and the Russian State and armed forces. Whatever ones opinion of the separation of church and state, Russia today is at an absolute extreme end of this spectrum.

    2) The Russians really did not expect this ship to be sunk.

    Link: https://tass.com/society/1123855?utm_source=wlord.org&utm_medium=referral&utm_campaign=wlord.org&utm_referrer=wlord.org

    Oh please can we argue about a piece of wood?
    Are we talking about Boris' Johnson?
  • Options
    MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 50,095
    kjh said:

    BigRich said:

    back to the Sinking of the Russian Flagship Moskova.

    It seems that the Russian Orthodox Church had placed one of there relocks on the ship, a fragment from the cross that Jesus was crucified on. That has presumably gone down with the Ship.

    (Please can we not argue about weather it was really a fragment of the cross, HYDF will say one thing and everybody else the other and we will be here all night, so please lets not go down that road. However the significant thing here is the Russian Orthodox Church pronated that it was. and this shoes:

    1) The ridiculously close relationship between the Russian Orthodox Church, and the Russian State and armed forces. Whatever ones opinion of the separation of church and state, Russia today is at an absolute extreme end of this spectrum.

    2) The Russians really did not expect this ship to be sunk.

    Link: https://tass.com/society/1123855?utm_source=wlord.org&utm_medium=referral&utm_campaign=wlord.org&utm_referrer=wlord.org

    Oh please can we argue about a piece of wood?
    Are we suggesting Putin no longer has wood?
  • Options
    NorthofStokeNorthofStoke Posts: 1,758

    darkage said:

    Just remember, however bad things get with Boris, it would be worse with Corbyn. Out of NATO, no NLAWs to Ukraine, no special forces in Ukraine, he would be embarrassing us on the world stage with calls for peace and dialogue with Russia. We really dodged a bullet in 2019, thanks largely to the politics of Brexit. Funny how these things go.

    Yeah thank God we haven't got a leader who embarrasses us on the world stage.
    I think he has been an embarrassment on the domestic stage not the international one. On Ukraine he and government have done well even if it hurts to admit it.
  • Options
    JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 38,880
    IshmaelZ said:

    BigRich said:

    back to the Sinking of the Russian Flagship Moskova.

    It seems that the Russian Orthodox Church had placed one of there relocks on the ship, a fragment from the cross that Jesus was crucified on. That has presumably gone down with the Ship.

    (Please can we not argue about weather it was really a fragment of the cross, HYDF will say one thing and everybody else the other and we will be here all night, so please lets not go down that road. However the significant thing here is the Russian Orthodox Church pronated that it was. and this shoes:

    1) The ridiculously close relationship between the Russian Orthodox Church, and the Russian State and armed forces. Whatever ones opinion of the separation of church and state, Russia today is at an absolute extreme end of this spectrum.

    2) The Russians really did not expect this ship to be sunk.

    Link: https://tass.com/society/1123855?utm_source=wlord.org&utm_medium=referral&utm_campaign=wlord.org&utm_referrer=wlord.org

    As I have already said the test is whether the ship rises again on the third day
    Three days! Three DAYS?

    I arise again after three minutes, and am ready for ACTION, baby!
  • Options
    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,108

    kjh said:

    BigRich said:

    back to the Sinking of the Russian Flagship Moskova.

    It seems that the Russian Orthodox Church had placed one of there relocks on the ship, a fragment from the cross that Jesus was crucified on. That has presumably gone down with the Ship.

    (Please can we not argue about weather it was really a fragment of the cross, HYDF will say one thing and everybody else the other and we will be here all night, so please lets not go down that road. However the significant thing here is the Russian Orthodox Church pronated that it was. and this shoes:

    1) The ridiculously close relationship between the Russian Orthodox Church, and the Russian State and armed forces. Whatever ones opinion of the separation of church and state, Russia today is at an absolute extreme end of this spectrum.

    2) The Russians really did not expect this ship to be sunk.

    Link: https://tass.com/society/1123855?utm_source=wlord.org&utm_medium=referral&utm_campaign=wlord.org&utm_referrer=wlord.org

    Oh please can we argue about a piece of wood?
    Are we suggesting Putin no longer has wood?
    Nailed it.
  • Options
    rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 58,152
    kle4 said:

    @yarotrof
    Russia confirms that Maj Gen Vladimir Frolov, deputy commander of the 8th Army, was killed in combat in Ukraine.


    https://twitter.com/yarotrof/status/1515343018471006212

    I thought one benefit of being a senior officer of that level was not needing be in such mortal danger...
    Normally no. It is a sign that command and control is fecked. Generals and senior types are having to go up near the front line to try and get their orders carried out by sounds of things.

  • Options
    FarooqFarooq Posts: 10,775
    darkage said:

    Just remember, however bad things get with Boris, it would be worse with Corbyn. Out of NATO, no NLAWs to Ukraine, no special forces in Ukraine, he would be embarrassing us on the world stage with calls for peace and dialogue with Russia. We really dodged a bullet in 2019, thanks largely to the politics of Brexit. Funny how these things go.

    Don't vote for either of them at the next election :+1:
  • Options
    MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 50,095
    ydoethur said:

    kjh said:

    BigRich said:

    back to the Sinking of the Russian Flagship Moskova.

    It seems that the Russian Orthodox Church had placed one of there relocks on the ship, a fragment from the cross that Jesus was crucified on. That has presumably gone down with the Ship.

    (Please can we not argue about weather it was really a fragment of the cross, HYDF will say one thing and everybody else the other and we will be here all night, so please lets not go down that road. However the significant thing here is the Russian Orthodox Church pronated that it was. and this shoes:

    1) The ridiculously close relationship between the Russian Orthodox Church, and the Russian State and armed forces. Whatever ones opinion of the separation of church and state, Russia today is at an absolute extreme end of this spectrum.

    2) The Russians really did not expect this ship to be sunk.

    Link: https://tass.com/society/1123855?utm_source=wlord.org&utm_medium=referral&utm_campaign=wlord.org&utm_referrer=wlord.org

    Oh please can we argue about a piece of wood?
    Are we suggesting Putin no longer has wood?
    Nailed it.
    No wonder it made him cross....
  • Options
    MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 50,095

    darkage said:

    Just remember, however bad things get with Boris, it would be worse with Corbyn. Out of NATO, no NLAWs to Ukraine, no special forces in Ukraine, he would be embarrassing us on the world stage with calls for peace and dialogue with Russia. We really dodged a bullet in 2019, thanks largely to the politics of Brexit. Funny how these things go.

    Yeah thank God we haven't got a leader who embarrasses us on the world stage.
    Like....Germany?
  • Options
    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,108
    edited April 2022

    ydoethur said:

    kjh said:

    BigRich said:

    back to the Sinking of the Russian Flagship Moskova.

    It seems that the Russian Orthodox Church had placed one of there relocks on the ship, a fragment from the cross that Jesus was crucified on. That has presumably gone down with the Ship.

    (Please can we not argue about weather it was really a fragment of the cross, HYDF will say one thing and everybody else the other and we will be here all night, so please lets not go down that road. However the significant thing here is the Russian Orthodox Church pronated that it was. and this shoes:

    1) The ridiculously close relationship between the Russian Orthodox Church, and the Russian State and armed forces. Whatever ones opinion of the separation of church and state, Russia today is at an absolute extreme end of this spectrum.

    2) The Russians really did not expect this ship to be sunk.

    Link: https://tass.com/society/1123855?utm_source=wlord.org&utm_medium=referral&utm_campaign=wlord.org&utm_referrer=wlord.org

    Oh please can we argue about a piece of wood?
    Are we suggesting Putin no longer has wood?
    Nailed it.
    No wonder it made him cross....
    There will be Cyrenes blaring as medical staff deal with the fallout.
  • Options
    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,838
    IshmaelZ said:

    BigRich said:

    back to the Sinking of the Russian Flagship Moskova.

    It seems that the Russian Orthodox Church had placed one of there relocks on the ship, a fragment from the cross that Jesus was crucified on. That has presumably gone down with the Ship.

    (Please can we not argue about weather it was really a fragment of the cross, HYDF will say one thing and everybody else the other and we will be here all night, so please lets not go down that road. However the significant thing here is the Russian Orthodox Church pronated that it was. and this shoes:

    1) The ridiculously close relationship between the Russian Orthodox Church, and the Russian State and armed forces. Whatever ones opinion of the separation of church and state, Russia today is at an absolute extreme end of this spectrum.

    2) The Russians really did not expect this ship to be sunk.

    Link: https://tass.com/society/1123855?utm_source=wlord.org&utm_medium=referral&utm_campaign=wlord.org&utm_referrer=wlord.org

    As I have already said the test is whether the ship rises again on the third day
    Guess we find out tomorrow!
  • Options
    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,108
    Sandpit said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    BigRich said:

    back to the Sinking of the Russian Flagship Moskova.

    It seems that the Russian Orthodox Church had placed one of there relocks on the ship, a fragment from the cross that Jesus was crucified on. That has presumably gone down with the Ship.

    (Please can we not argue about weather it was really a fragment of the cross, HYDF will say one thing and everybody else the other and we will be here all night, so please lets not go down that road. However the significant thing here is the Russian Orthodox Church pronated that it was. and this shoes:

    1) The ridiculously close relationship between the Russian Orthodox Church, and the Russian State and armed forces. Whatever ones opinion of the separation of church and state, Russia today is at an absolute extreme end of this spectrum.

    2) The Russians really did not expect this ship to be sunk.

    Link: https://tass.com/society/1123855?utm_source=wlord.org&utm_medium=referral&utm_campaign=wlord.org&utm_referrer=wlord.org

    As I have already said the test is whether the ship rises again on the third day
    Guess we find out tomorrow!
    Russian warship. Go float yourself.
  • Options
    kinabalukinabalu Posts: 39,079
    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    kjh said:

    Farooq said:

    Backing Starmer as next PM feel tantamount to betting on the Conservatives to perform well at the local elections. It's a heck of a gamble.

    I get your point but I can't see the Tories dumping him unless it is an off the scale disaster and it isn't looking that bad. And he isn't resigning is he?
    Focussing on the wrong local elections. He can ride out urban Britain giving him a kicking in 2022.

    He cannot ride out the Shires giving him a good kicking in 2023. Which is when they are up. Boris announces in late May 2023 that he will be departing 10 Downing Street once his successor is in place (or else 70-80 letters go in!!). The leadership contest goes ahead over the summer and he is replaced to a huge standing ovation of gratitude (aka "thank fuck he's gone, now we stand a chance at least next year") at the 2023 Conference.

    SKS will NOT be the next PM. Might win in 2024, but less obvious than a new Tory in their honeymoon period.

    Don't say I didn't tell you.
    I dont think the record supports the notion that the Tories are ruthless with their leaders.

    The key issue will be if another leading candidate offers a better chance of survival. Mrs Thatcher and Mrs May had become major electoral liabilities certainly, but there were also in each case several strong alternatives.

    If we look at the alternatives to Big Dog, who are the candidates that offer that possibility? None stands out and there is the possibility of worse. Best hold onto nurse for fear of finding something worse. Indeed many Tories are probably glad that Sunak didnt take over this last winter.
    If Bojo's stock falls enough there will be plenty better candidates.
    One thing Johnson is good at is getting rid of rivals.
    I think Sunak, on getting his FPN, should have resigned and brought Johnson down. That was the move if this were a Netflix drama and it should have been the move IRL. Disappointed in him.
  • Options
    Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 26,443
    Electoral Calculus is forecasting the Tories will lose 800 council seats — but no councils. Interesting combination.

    https://www.electoralcalculus.co.uk/blogs/ec_localelectionpoll_20220415.html
  • Options
    MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 50,095
    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    kjh said:

    BigRich said:

    back to the Sinking of the Russian Flagship Moskova.

    It seems that the Russian Orthodox Church had placed one of there relocks on the ship, a fragment from the cross that Jesus was crucified on. That has presumably gone down with the Ship.

    (Please can we not argue about weather it was really a fragment of the cross, HYDF will say one thing and everybody else the other and we will be here all night, so please lets not go down that road. However the significant thing here is the Russian Orthodox Church pronated that it was. and this shoes:

    1) The ridiculously close relationship between the Russian Orthodox Church, and the Russian State and armed forces. Whatever ones opinion of the separation of church and state, Russia today is at an absolute extreme end of this spectrum.

    2) The Russians really did not expect this ship to be sunk.

    Link: https://tass.com/society/1123855?utm_source=wlord.org&utm_medium=referral&utm_campaign=wlord.org&utm_referrer=wlord.org

    Oh please can we argue about a piece of wood?
    Are we suggesting Putin no longer has wood?
    Nailed it.
    No wonder it made him cross....
    There will be Cyrenes blaring as medical staff deal with the fallout.
    If he hasn't got a navy, is he going to have to send for the Calvary?
  • Options
    darkagedarkage Posts: 4,787
    Farooq said:

    darkage said:

    Just remember, however bad things get with Boris, it would be worse with Corbyn. Out of NATO, no NLAWs to Ukraine, no special forces in Ukraine, he would be embarrassing us on the world stage with calls for peace and dialogue with Russia. We really dodged a bullet in 2019, thanks largely to the politics of Brexit. Funny how these things go.

    Don't vote for either of them at the next election :+1:
    If you want to vote for a party who are proven competent and reliable on defence, there is only one option in my view.
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,624
    darkage said:

    Just remember, however bad things get with Boris, it would be worse with Corbyn. Out of NATO, no NLAWs to Ukraine, no special forces in Ukraine, he would be embarrassing us on the world stage with calls for peace and dialogue with Russia. We really dodged a bullet in 2019, thanks largely to the politics of Brexit. Funny how these things go.

    That was worth reflecting on at the start, but has no additional impact. Its true and everyone has moved on.
This discussion has been closed.