Just remember, however bad things get with Boris, it would be worse with Corbyn. Out of NATO, no NLAWs to Ukraine, no special forces in Ukraine, he would be embarrassing us on the world stage with calls for peace and dialogue with Russia. We really dodged a bullet in 2019, thanks largely to the politics of Brexit. Funny how these things go.
That was worth reflecting on at the start, but has no additional impact. Its true and everyone has moved on.
Really? I reckon there are still plenty in Labour who would get us out of NATO even if it meant throwing Ukraine under Russian tank tracks...
You are a bit more Reds under to he bed than even most blue blooded Conservative I suspect. Don't worry, we'll all be fine should the Conservatives lose the next election.
For his manifold faults Starmer has dragged Labour back from being a stop the war interest group, and the Corbynista faction seem to have lost any influence, which is good news.
From a Centrist viewpoint our current Government seem rather extreme and unnecessarily confrontational with anyone who doesn't worship in the Church of St. Boris.His Government have taken us out of plenty of pre- Common Market international arrangements that have made our nation poorer and less secure. Euratom for one. This is why I consider them to be as dreadfully poor as the mercifully defeated Corbyn alternative Government. It is just a shame both Corbyn and Johnson couldn't have lost in parallel in 2019.
More revolting, openly genocidal rhetoric on Russian state TV. The very idea of being Ukrainian, he says, “has to be erased once and for all.” Meanwhile, calling this a war is still punishable by years in Russian prison. https://twitter.com/shustry/status/1514928787527548932
i dont think that is genocidal talk . It is nationalistic of course. Can we stop corrupting the word
I don’t think you could be more wrong. What do you think genocide is?
well its not that ! the equivalent would be an Irish nationalist saying the very idea of being northern irish needs to be erased - its nationalistic talk not genocidal
In the context of sending thousands of troops into a country, murdering, raping, bombing, killing thousands, and saying that that country should not exist, pretty much makes it genocide to me.
well legally its not
There is a very strong prima facie case for genocide. Article II: In the present Convention, genocide means any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such:
(a) Killing members of the group; (b) Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group; (c) Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part; (d) Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group; (e) Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.
The intent to destroy Ukraine as a nation is pretty clear, and at least four of those five tests have been met. Whether a genocide case would be proven is an open question, but to say that “it isn’t genocide, legally” is just incorrect.
Note that some of Hitler’s crew were prosecuted under genocide for their actions in destroying the Czechoslovakian state. Separately from the Holocaust charges.
except whilst all that may be true its not what i said was not genocide (the TV talk ).I dont wnat to especially dance on pin heads here but find fanning the flames of this war very worrying given the world is at stake. There needs to be a negotiation and and end soon
If you are going to nitpick, (b) fits the bill. At best they are gaslighting an entire fucking country. But I think your just being silly.
I am sorry but gaslighting an entire country is not genocide either -
Why do you object to this so much? The context is crucial. Russia is trying to wipe Ukraine out of existence. Make no mistake they tried to invade and seize Kiev and effect regime change. They failed. Now they are settling for trying to seize parts of the east while murdering civilians, raping children, and endless other horrors. Then on the tv they talk about the idea of BeingUkrainian must not be allowed. And you quibble about it not being genocidal talk? You couldn’t be more wrong.
well its a legal definition that is not what the TV talk said - so its not genocide is it? - I really dont see how I could be more wrong.
Context, FFS.
well the original poster did not express it in context as you say - they just said it was genocidal talk - well its not is it? As for context I dont know , has Boris said they are committing genocide or the UN? No point willing something that is not technically true
It absolutely IS genocidal talk. Denying an entire country the right to be a country. Take a step back and think about it a bit.
If that is what the West thinks there can be no justification for not becoming directly involved on the ground.
Actually that’s not true. Any duty to act has to include evaluation of the likely consequences.
Supplying Ukraine with sufficient arms to defeat the invasion is a proportionate, and justified response.
To defeat an invasion, sure. But if genocide is going on should we be slow stepping this? Is allowing a little bit of genocide to go on ok? I feel like there aren't half measures where the g word is coming in.
Before Brexit groups of school children could come on a joint permit and didn’t need a passport . The government refused to continue with this . Would any leaver have a problem with the old scheme continuing ? Did Leavers vote for this .
I very much doubt it . No 10 seems obsessed with putting up hurdles to any sort of cultural exchanges.
Just petty and vindictive .
Brexit was always going to have a long lead time of no gain and some pain. I doubt anyone anticipated quite what would break, but equally some things that people predicted would be bad are fine.
It really is too early to tell whether there is much gain to be had. (Of course there will be some in specific areas)
The tourists will still come, and if the school-children need a passport then perhaps it'll be seen as a greater adventure. Who knows. Too early to tell as I said above.
Is anyone still pretending that Brexit will result in anything beneficial? Even Boris doesn't seem to bother any more.
Well, yes, me. The reasons I voted to leave were very long-term reasons. It'd be a harsh thing if one was constrained by the thinking of one politician.
Remainers are STILL too stupid to understand all this. It’s quite phenomenal
Some Leavers are STILL too stupid to understand that there are NO long term benefits. It’s quite phenomenal
You got five "likes" for this??
Hhahahahahahah
HAHAHAHAHAHAHA
The tragic, impotent anger of bewildered Remainers will never cease to amuse me. Quite intensely. If you lot had given us a referendum AT ANY POINT from 1990-2016, you could have avoided this, you sad fucks. Suck it up
Instead you pushed the patience of the voting public to an explosive limit, and actually got a vote to LEAVE outright
And what was your reaction to that? To try and annul the Brexit vote, and destroy democracy.
Brilliant, not.
I hope every single person who wanted a "people's vote" suffers a terrible canker of the genitals. You sowed the wind, you reaped a whirlwind
I feel for you, I really do. It must be hard to to bear the gradual realisation thatr your beloved project is, in fact, a heap of shite that helps no one.
Your hero Putin must be experiencing similar feelings right now.
I agree with the PB-ers who say the Ukrainian invasion looks an awful lot like genocide
It is an attempt to cancel a country. To remove it from history, to eradicate its identity. Is that not genocide?
I understand this is a solemn question, as it then entails quite fierce commitments by us
quite - it will mean WW3 (and the death of 99% of people in the UK) if countries take the law on it literally so lets be careful about it shall we?
Let’s just sacrifice all Ukrainians over your care for the definition, shall we?
well you want WW3 then and nuclear war?
I do not believe for a moment that Russians will commit suicide to “win” Ukraine.
oh good I am not prepared to take the risk personally of your hunch
Are you prepared to sacrifice the Poles too on your hunch that they will?
Poles they are NATO are they not so I doubt Russia will attack.
So the Ukrainians aren’t worth it because of a piece of paper?
the continued supply of weapons is killing people not the other way around and prolonging things
Why can’t they just surrender and get it over with? Is that your line? Have you seen great the Russians have been so far in occupied areas? Would you fucking surrender? For gods sake, take a look at yourself.
no, if ukrainian its a hard decision - but I am not and supplying weapons is only prolonging the war and killing people. At some point it has to stop . You really dont want endless years of active war stalemate there. there are a lot of people on here who are used to winning in a virtuous way. Sometimes life cannot be like that and you have to be more pragmatic. Weigh up the bigger risk , weigh up the bigger evil (of an endless unwinnable war that will destroy at least one country )- the sinking of that ship was probably a mistake despite the gooshing it led to amongst militiary battle types on here and elsewhere. What is going to be needed is a localised conflict in the east of Ukraine and then a face saving settlement for both sides - what else can there be ?
It's very revealing that pro-Kremlin figures are already explicitly advocating a withdrawal and what really stands out here is the comment - "do we need to get into another Afghanistan, but even worse?". https://twitter.com/nexta_tv/status/1515412789698912266
I agree with the PB-ers who say the Ukrainian invasion looks an awful lot like genocide
It is an attempt to cancel a country. To remove it from history, to eradicate its identity. Is that not genocide?
I understand this is a solemn question, as it then entails quite fierce commitments by us
quite - it will mean WW3 (and the death of 99% of people in the UK) if countries take the law on it literally so lets be careful about it shall we?
Let’s just sacrifice all Ukrainians over your care for the definition, shall we?
well you want WW3 then and nuclear war?
I do not believe for a moment that Russians will commit suicide to “win” Ukraine.
oh good I am not prepared to take the risk personally of your hunch
Are you prepared to sacrifice the Poles too on your hunch that they will?
Poles they are NATO are they not so I doubt Russia will attack.
So the Ukrainians aren’t worth it because of a piece of paper?
the continued supply of weapons is killing people not the other way around and prolonging things
Why can’t they just surrender and get it over with? Is that your line? Have you seen great the Russians have been so far in occupied areas? Would you fucking surrender? For gods sake, take a look at yourself.
no, if ukrainian its a hard decision - but I am not and supplying weapons is only prolonging the war and killing people. At some point it has to stop . You really dont want endless years of active war stalemate there. there are a lot of people on here who are used to winning in a virtuous way. Sometimes life cannot be like that and you have to be more pragmatic. Weigh up the bigger risk , weigh up the bigger evil (of an endless unwinnable war that will destroy at least one country )- the sinking of that ship was probably a mistake despite the gooshing it led to amongst militiary battle types on here and elsewhere. What is going to be needed is a localised conflict in the east of Ukraine and then a face saving settlement for both sides - what else can there be ?
Well it’s not impossible that Russia actually loses. I ask you this though. If the Russians were in East Anglia would you want Ukrainians sending arms or would you rather we just surrendered? I believe evil needs to be fought. We should help the Ukrainians to resist evil in its purest form.
I see we seem to have another troll in. I´d suggest Rentokil to remove it.
Meanwhile the definition of Genocide is pretty clear: a crime where acts are committed with the intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnic, racial, or religious group. There is a likelihood but not a certainty that Russian crimes are genocidal in nature.
However, genocidal or not, there is simply no doubt that the Russian army is committing war crimes. It is deliberately targetting civilians and cimmitting crimes against humanity as defined under the 1949 Geneva Conventions and the Rome statute of the International Criminal Court with acts that include:
murder. extermination. enslavement. deportation. mass systematic rape and sexual enslavement in a time of war. other inhumane acts.
The contempt of the civilised world for the brutality of the Russian attack is wholly justified. Given that there is photgraphic evidence of those committing various crimes, I sincerely hope that those responsible who have survived in the Russian armed forces should face a criminal tribunal and those that sent them should be equally condemned.
But let justice run down like water, And righteousness like a mighty stream.
The situation inside Russia itself is getting worse and the repression continues to grow. It is a delirium of absurd lies and wild threats. The country seems to be on the brink of a nervous breakdown with consequences we do not yet understand.
I agree with the PB-ers who say the Ukrainian invasion looks an awful lot like genocide
It is an attempt to cancel a country. To remove it from history, to eradicate its identity. Is that not genocide?
I understand this is a solemn question, as it then entails quite fierce commitments by us
quite - it will mean WW3 (and the death of 99% of people in the UK) if countries take the law on it literally so lets be careful about it shall we?
Some of us think there is a moral obligation to carry out promises we have made in treaties, rather than hiding behind the utterly bizarre assertion that those promises should not be interpreted "literally."
well go and fight yourself then if you feel you have that much moral obligation - you are allowed
I am not allowed actually, it would be a criminal offence. The moral obligation does not bind me personally, it binds my country. And yours, assuming you are a citizen of one of the signatories.
as my name suggests I am not big on being honoured to do what "my" country says
It's very revealing that pro-Kremlin figures are already explicitly advocating a withdrawal and what really stands out here is the comment - "do we need to get into another Afghanistan, but even worse?". https://twitter.com/nexta_tv/status/1515412789698912266
Interesting development, if it can be taken at face value.
The French love to moan especially about their leaders and protesting is a national pastime . They don’t even realize they got off lightly with just a 4% energy price rise. One can only imagine the drama if they were subjected to the extortionate price rises in the UK . Having said all this and having lived there in the past my love for the country and its people remains .
I’ve never understood all this anti French sentiment in the UK .
I agree with the PB-ers who say the Ukrainian invasion looks an awful lot like genocide
It is an attempt to cancel a country. To remove it from history, to eradicate its identity. Is that not genocide?
I understand this is a solemn question, as it then entails quite fierce commitments by us
quite - it will mean WW3 (and the death of 99% of people in the UK) if countries take the law on it literally so lets be careful about it shall we?
Some of us think there is a moral obligation to carry out promises we have made in treaties, rather than hiding behind the utterly bizarre assertion that those promises should not be interpreted "literally."
well go and fight yourself then if you feel you have that much moral obligation - you are allowed
I am not allowed actually, it would be a criminal offence. The moral obligation does not bind me personally, it binds my country. And yours, assuming you are a citizen of one of the signatories.
so your morality is not above committing a criminal offence then? I presume then you are a reservist . Why dont you resign and do your moral duty then if you feel so strong?
I agree with the PB-ers who say the Ukrainian invasion looks an awful lot like genocide
It is an attempt to cancel a country. To remove it from history, to eradicate its identity. Is that not genocide?
I understand this is a solemn question, as it then entails quite fierce commitments by us
quite - it will mean WW3 (and the death of 99% of people in the UK) if countries take the law on it literally so lets be careful about it shall we?
Some of us think there is a moral obligation to carry out promises we have made in treaties, rather than hiding behind the utterly bizarre assertion that those promises should not be interpreted "literally."
well go and fight yourself then if you feel you have that much moral obligation - you are allowed
I am not allowed actually, it would be a criminal offence. The moral obligation does not bind me personally, it binds my country. And yours, assuming you are a citizen of one of the signatories.
as my name suggests I am not big on being honoured to do what "my" country says
The username says Gavin Williamson more than Pyotr Alexeyevich Kropotkin to me, but anyway you can't have it both ways. If a treaty is a heap of meaningless bourgeois shite ostensibly binding nonsensical constructs which have no meaningful existence, what the fuck is the point of your (admittedly hopeless) attempts to construe its contents?
Just remember, however bad things get with Boris, it would be worse with Corbyn. Out of NATO, no NLAWs to Ukraine, no special forces in Ukraine, he would be embarrassing us on the world stage with calls for peace and dialogue with Russia. We really dodged a bullet in 2019, thanks largely to the politics of Brexit. Funny how these things go.
That was worth reflecting on at the start, but has no additional impact. Its true and everyone has moved on.
Really? I reckon there are still plenty in Labour who would get us out of NATO even if it meant throwing Ukraine under Russian tank tracks...
You are a bit more Reds under to he bed than even most blue blooded Conservative I suspect. Don't worry, we'll all be fine should the Conservatives lose the next election.
For his manifold faults Starmer has dragged Labour back from being a stop the war interest group, and the Corbynista faction seem to have lost any influence, which is good news.
From a Centrist viewpoint our current Government seem rather extreme and unnecessarily confrontational with anyone who doesn't worship in the Church of St. Boris.His Government have taken us out of plenty of pre- Common Market international arrangements that have made our nation poorer and less secure. Euratom for one. This is why I consider them to be as dreadfully poor as the mercifully defeated Corbyn alternative Government. It is just a shame both Corbyn and Johnson couldn't have lost in parallel in 2019.
Before Brexit groups of school children could come on a joint permit and didn’t need a passport . The government refused to continue with this . Would any leaver have a problem with the old scheme continuing ? Did Leavers vote for this .
I very much doubt it . No 10 seems obsessed with putting up hurdles to any sort of cultural exchanges.
Just petty and vindictive .
Brexit was always going to have a long lead time of no gain and some pain. I doubt anyone anticipated quite what would break, but equally some things that people predicted would be bad are fine.
It really is too early to tell whether there is much gain to be had. (Of course there will be some in specific areas)
The tourists will still come, and if the school-children need a passport then perhaps it'll be seen as a greater adventure. Who knows. Too early to tell as I said above.
Is anyone still pretending that Brexit will result in anything beneficial? Even Boris doesn't seem to bother any more.
Well, yes, me. The reasons I voted to leave were very long-term reasons. It'd be a harsh thing if one was constrained by the thinking of one politician.
Remainers are STILL too stupid to understand all this. It’s quite phenomenal
Some Leavers are STILL too stupid to understand that there are NO long term benefits. It’s quite phenomenal
The political benefits - sovereignty - are enormous and immediate
The economic benefits will take 50 years to fully emerge. As the brilliant Jacob Rees Mogg (perhaps unwisely) admitted at the time
Two people called Jacob Rees Mogg. Wow. What are the odds?
Disastrous poll for the Tories, at what point will we discuss a Labour landslide?
Scotland is probably the stumbling block for that idea. Conditions are not the same as say 1997. Chances of a labour majority are certainly increasing. Perhaps the biggest danger is that the Tories will see the future and actually change leader in time to reverse some of the damage.
I see we seem to have another troll in. I´d suggest Rentokil to remove it.
Meanwhile the definition of Genocide is pretty clear: a crime where acts are committed with the intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnic, racial, or religious group. There is a likelihood but not a certainty that Russian crimes are genocidal in nature.
However, genocidal or not, there is simply no doubt that the Russian army is committing war crimes. It is deliberately targetting civilians and cimmitting crimes against humanity as defined under the 1949 Geneva Conventions and the Rome statute of the International Criminal Court with acts that include:
murder. extermination. enslavement. deportation. mass systematic rape and sexual enslavement in a time of war. other inhumane acts.
The contempt of the civilised world for the brutality of the Russian attack is wholly justified. Given that there is photgraphic evidence of those committing various crimes, I sincerely hope that those responsible who have survived in the Russian armed forces should face a criminal tribunal and those that sent them should be equally condemned.
But let justice run down like water, And righteousness like a mighty stream.
The situation inside Russia itself is getting worse and the repression continues to grow. It is a delirium of absurd lies and wild threats. The country seems to be on the brink of a nervous breakdown with consequences we do not yet understand.
oh dear we have this tedious nonsense again about labelling anyone with a different point of view a troll - Its a political site get used to it pal
I agree with the PB-ers who say the Ukrainian invasion looks an awful lot like genocide
It is an attempt to cancel a country. To remove it from history, to eradicate its identity. Is that not genocide?
I understand this is a solemn question, as it then entails quite fierce commitments by us
quite - it will mean WW3 (and the death of 99% of people in the UK) if countries take the law on it literally so lets be careful about it shall we?
Some of us think there is a moral obligation to carry out promises we have made in treaties, rather than hiding behind the utterly bizarre assertion that those promises should not be interpreted "literally."
well go and fight yourself then if you feel you have that much moral obligation - you are allowed
I am not allowed actually, it would be a criminal offence. The moral obligation does not bind me personally, it binds my country. And yours, assuming you are a citizen of one of the signatories.
so your morality is not above committing a criminal offence then? I presume then you are a reservist . Why dont you resign and do your moral duty then if you feel so strong?
Just remember, however bad things get with Boris, it would be worse with Corbyn. Out of NATO, no NLAWs to Ukraine, no special forces in Ukraine, he would be embarrassing us on the world stage with calls for peace and dialogue with Russia. We really dodged a bullet in 2019, thanks largely to the politics of Brexit. Funny how these things go.
That was worth reflecting on at the start, but has no additional impact. Its true and everyone has moved on.
Really? I reckon there are still plenty in Labour who would get us out of NATO even if it meant throwing Ukraine under Russian tank tracks...
You are a bit more Reds under to he bed than even most blue blooded Conservative I suspect. Don't worry, we'll all be fine should the Conservatives lose the next election.
For his manifold faults Starmer has dragged Labour back from being a stop the war interest group, and the Corbynista faction seem to have lost any influence, which is good news.
From a Centrist viewpoint our current Government seem rather extreme and unnecessarily confrontational with anyone who doesn't worship in the Church of St. Boris.His Government have taken us out of plenty of pre- Common Market international arrangements that have made our nation poorer and less secure. Euratom for one. This is why I consider them to be as dreadfully poor as the mercifully defeated Corbyn alternative Government. It is just a shame both Corbyn and Johnson couldn't have lost in parallel in 2019.
Ah, missed it as I was too busy being wound up by a genocide denier...
Hmm, the French election is starting to feel a lot like 2016 redux with the French joining in the rebellion against the liberal order. This is just from talking to French people rather than polls.
Macron needs to move fast to adopt some of Le Pen's policies and peel 3-4% of her voters away.
So an 11 point lead for Labour, 15 point lead nailed on
Yes, I now believe Starmer will be PM post 2024
I don't see how the Tories recover from this. Sunak's implosion was kinda the last straw
The Tories have now been in power far too long, for all the ideas they have (ie: none). Bojo's victory in 2019 was essential to protect democracy and Get Brexit Done (a 2nd referendum without enacting the first would have been a calamity for the nation, utterly devaluing everyone's vote)
But the Tories are now clearly corrupt, wearied, sad, pathetic, and the moment has gone.
It is time for an alternative. I wish the alternative was more inspiring than SKS (and less pathetically woke) but so be it, this is what we have
Incidentally I reckon Starmer will refuse Sindyref2 for the same reasons as Boris. A generation must pass. What does the SNP do then? Split, probably
Just remember, however bad things get with Boris, it would be worse with Corbyn. Out of NATO, no NLAWs to Ukraine, no special forces in Ukraine, he would be embarrassing us on the world stage with calls for peace and dialogue with Russia. We really dodged a bullet in 2019, thanks largely to the politics of Brexit. Funny how these things go.
That was worth reflecting on at the start, but has no additional impact. Its true and everyone has moved on.
Really? I reckon there are still plenty in Labour who would get us out of NATO even if it meant throwing Ukraine under Russian tank tracks...
You are a bit more Reds under to he bed than even most blue blooded Conservative I suspect. Don't worry, we'll all be fine should the Conservatives lose the next election.
For his manifold faults Starmer has dragged Labour back from being a stop the war interest group, and the Corbynista faction seem to have lost any influence, which is good news.
From a Centrist viewpoint our current Government seem rather extreme and unnecessarily confrontational with anyone who doesn't worship in the Church of St. Boris.His Government have taken us out of plenty of pre- Common Market international arrangements that have made our nation poorer and less secure. Euratom for one. This is why I consider them to be as dreadfully poor as the mercifully defeated Corbyn alternative Government. It is just a shame both Corbyn and Johnson couldn't have lost in parallel in 2019.
Ah, missed it as I was too busy being wound up by a genocide denier...
Just remember, however bad things get with Boris, it would be worse with Corbyn. Out of NATO, no NLAWs to Ukraine, no special forces in Ukraine, he would be embarrassing us on the world stage with calls for peace and dialogue with Russia. We really dodged a bullet in 2019, thanks largely to the politics of Brexit. Funny how these things go.
That was worth reflecting on at the start, but has no additional impact. Its true and everyone has moved on.
Really? I reckon there are still plenty in Labour who would get us out of NATO even if it meant throwing Ukraine under Russian tank tracks...
You are a bit more Reds under to he bed than even most blue blooded Conservative I suspect. Don't worry, we'll all be fine should the Conservatives lose the next election.
For his manifold faults Starmer has dragged Labour back from being a stop the war interest group, and the Corbynista faction seem to have lost any influence, which is good news.
From a Centrist viewpoint our current Government seem rather extreme and unnecessarily confrontational with anyone who doesn't worship in the Church of St. Boris.His Government have taken us out of plenty of pre- Common Market international arrangements that have made our nation poorer and less secure. Euratom for one. This is why I consider them to be as dreadfully poor as the mercifully defeated Corbyn alternative Government. It is just a shame both Corbyn and Johnson couldn't have lost in parallel in 2019.
Ah, missed it as I was too busy being wound up by a genocide denier...
be careful what you say about me as that is a serious accusation in the context of historical genocides.
So an 11 point lead for Labour, 15 point lead nailed on
Yes, I now believe Starmer will be PM post 2024
I don't see how the Tories recover from this. Sunak's implosion was kinda the last straw
The Tories have now been in power far too long, for all the ideas they have (ie: none). Bojo's victory in 2019 was essential to protect democracy and Get Brexit Done (a 2nd referendum without enacting the first would have been a calamity for the nation, utterly devaluing everyone's vote)
But the Tories are now clearly corrupt, wearied, sad, pathetic, and the moment has gone.
It is time for an alternative. I wish the alternative was more inspiring than SKS (and less pathetically woke) but so be it, this is what we have
Incidentally I reckon Starmer will refuse Sindyref2 for the same reasons as Boris. A generation must pass. What does the SNP do then? Split, probably
Hope you are keeping well Leon.
I wonder if there is something in that, people voted Johnson to get Brexit done but that was it. And it's now time for a change now Brexit is secure.
I wonder if in time we will see 2019 as an outlier.
back to the Sinking of the Russian Flagship Moskova.
It seems that the Russian Orthodox Church had placed one of there relocks on the ship, a fragment from the cross that Jesus was crucified on. That has presumably gone down with the Ship.
(Please can we not argue about weather it was really a fragment of the cross, HYDF will say one thing and everybody else the other and we will be here all night, so please lets not go down that road. However the significant thing here is the Russian Orthodox Church pronated that it was. and this shoes:
1) The ridiculously close relationship between the Russian Orthodox Church, and the Russian State and armed forces. Whatever ones opinion of the separation of church and state, Russia today is at an absolute extreme end of this spectrum.
2) The Russians really did not expect this ship to be sunk.
No, No arguing about a piece of wood which may or may not have been somewhere in the first centaury.
We all know how it will tern out HYDF will say one thing somebody else will point out how perposturase it is, HYDF will double down then everybody will pile in, the chat will get boring, and then tomorrow some people will have overstated their crissum of HYDF and apologise and others will give him credit for sticking to his guns, now we don't want that do we.
If you need to argue there's always pineapple on Prize.
But betters still, can somebody agree we me that this shoes the Russians really did not expect to loss this ship?
Your autocorrect is pissed I think.
No, sorry, I'm Dyslectic, and do not put as much effort in to checking my posts as I could, so some mistakes come though.
Your posts are always interesting, thoughtful and articulate, and are easily comprehensible.
Of course, you're not always right. But, other than @HYUFD, who is?
Just remember, however bad things get with Boris, it would be worse with Corbyn. Out of NATO, no NLAWs to Ukraine, no special forces in Ukraine, he would be embarrassing us on the world stage with calls for peace and dialogue with Russia. We really dodged a bullet in 2019, thanks largely to the politics of Brexit. Funny how these things go.
That was worth reflecting on at the start, but has no additional impact. Its true and everyone has moved on.
Really? I reckon there are still plenty in Labour who would get us out of NATO even if it meant throwing Ukraine under Russian tank tracks...
You are a bit more Reds under to he bed than even most blue blooded Conservative I suspect. Don't worry, we'll all be fine should the Conservatives lose the next election.
For his manifold faults Starmer has dragged Labour back from being a stop the war interest group, and the Corbynista faction seem to have lost any influence, which is good news.
From a Centrist viewpoint our current Government seem rather extreme and unnecessarily confrontational with anyone who doesn't worship in the Church of St. Boris.His Government have taken us out of plenty of pre- Common Market international arrangements that have made our nation poorer and less secure. Euratom for one. This is why I consider them to be as dreadfully poor as the mercifully defeated Corbyn alternative Government. It is just a shame both Corbyn and Johnson couldn't have lost in parallel in 2019.
Ah, missed it as I was too busy being wound up by a genocide denier...
Jesus, who was that?
State_go_away, and I’ll be explicit to avoid annoying him, he is not denying historical genocides, but disputing some comments apron Russian tv, which most of us feel are genocidal, and he doesn’t. A bit like Captain Rum’s thoughts on crews...
It's very revealing that pro-Kremlin figures are already explicitly advocating a withdrawal and what really stands out here is the comment - "do we need to get into another Afghanistan, but even worse?". https://twitter.com/nexta_tv/status/1515412789698912266
It's already worse. Russia passed the Soviet-Afghan War around week six.
Just remember, however bad things get with Boris, it would be worse with Corbyn. Out of NATO, no NLAWs to Ukraine, no special forces in Ukraine, he would be embarrassing us on the world stage with calls for peace and dialogue with Russia. We really dodged a bullet in 2019, thanks largely to the politics of Brexit. Funny how these things go.
That was worth reflecting on at the start, but has no additional impact. Its true and everyone has moved on.
Really? I reckon there are still plenty in Labour who would get us out of NATO even if it meant throwing Ukraine under Russian tank tracks...
You are a bit more Reds under to he bed than even most blue blooded Conservative I suspect. Don't worry, we'll all be fine should the Conservatives lose the next election.
For his manifold faults Starmer has dragged Labour back from being a stop the war interest group, and the Corbynista faction seem to have lost any influence, which is good news.
From a Centrist viewpoint our current Government seem rather extreme and unnecessarily confrontational with anyone who doesn't worship in the Church of St. Boris.His Government have taken us out of plenty of pre- Common Market international arrangements that have made our nation poorer and less secure. Euratom for one. This is why I consider them to be as dreadfully poor as the mercifully defeated Corbyn alternative Government. It is just a shame both Corbyn and Johnson couldn't have lost in parallel in 2019.
Ah, missed it as I was too busy being wound up by a genocide denier...
be careful what you say about me as that is a serious accusation in the context of historical genocides.
Yes, have clarified that. You have not denied historical genocides.
Before Brexit groups of school children could come on a joint permit and didn’t need a passport . The government refused to continue with this . Would any leaver have a problem with the old scheme continuing ? Did Leavers vote for this .
I very much doubt it . No 10 seems obsessed with putting up hurdles to any sort of cultural exchanges.
Just petty and vindictive .
Brexit was always going to have a long lead time of no gain and some pain. I doubt anyone anticipated quite what would break, but equally some things that people predicted would be bad are fine.
It really is too early to tell whether there is much gain to be had. (Of course there will be some in specific areas)
The tourists will still come, and if the school-children need a passport then perhaps it'll be seen as a greater adventure. Who knows. Too early to tell as I said above.
Is anyone still pretending that Brexit will result in anything beneficial? Even Boris doesn't seem to bother any more.
Well, yes, me. The reasons I voted to leave were very long-term reasons. It'd be a harsh thing if one was constrained by the thinking of one politician.
Remainers are STILL too stupid to understand all this. It’s quite phenomenal
Some Leavers are STILL too stupid to understand that there are NO long term benefits. It’s quite phenomenal
You got five "likes" for this??
Hhahahahahahah
HAHAHAHAHAHAHA
The tragic, impotent anger of bewildered Remainers will never cease to amuse me. Quite intensely. If you lot had given us a referendum AT ANY POINT from 1990-2016, you could have avoided this, you sad fucks. Suck it up
Instead you pushed the patience of the voting public to an explosive limit, and actually got a vote to LEAVE outright
And what was your reaction to that? To try and annul the Brexit vote, and destroy democracy.
Brilliant, not.
I hope every single person who wanted a "people's vote" suffers a terrible canker of the genitals. You sowed the wind, you reaped a whirlwind
Not lost it at all then? I liked and I'm not angry, but you clearly are, very. You have to let it drop. We have left, get over it.
Just remember, however bad things get with Boris, it would be worse with Corbyn. Out of NATO, no NLAWs to Ukraine, no special forces in Ukraine, he would be embarrassing us on the world stage with calls for peace and dialogue with Russia. We really dodged a bullet in 2019, thanks largely to the politics of Brexit. Funny how these things go.
That was worth reflecting on at the start, but has no additional impact. Its true and everyone has moved on.
Really? I reckon there are still plenty in Labour who would get us out of NATO even if it meant throwing Ukraine under Russian tank tracks...
You are a bit more Reds under to he bed than even most blue blooded Conservative I suspect. Don't worry, we'll all be fine should the Conservatives lose the next election.
For his manifold faults Starmer has dragged Labour back from being a stop the war interest group, and the Corbynista faction seem to have lost any influence, which is good news.
From a Centrist viewpoint our current Government seem rather extreme and unnecessarily confrontational with anyone who doesn't worship in the Church of St. Boris.His Government have taken us out of plenty of pre- Common Market international arrangements that have made our nation poorer and less secure. Euratom for one. This is why I consider them to be as dreadfully poor as the mercifully defeated Corbyn alternative Government. It is just a shame both Corbyn and Johnson couldn't have lost in parallel in 2019.
Ah, missed it as I was too busy being wound up by a genocide denier...
Jesus, who was that?
I am not a genocide denier and have asked for the poster of it to be careful about his words
More revolting, openly genocidal rhetoric on Russian state TV. The very idea of being Ukrainian, he says, “has to be erased once and for all.” Meanwhile, calling this a war is still punishable by years in Russian prison. https://twitter.com/shustry/status/1514928787527548932
i dont think that is genocidal talk . It is nationalistic of course. Can we stop corrupting the word
I don’t think you could be more wrong. What do you think genocide is?
well its not that ! the equivalent would be an Irish nationalist saying the very idea of being northern irish needs to be erased - its nationalistic talk not genocidal
In the context of sending thousands of troops into a country, murdering, raping, bombing, killing thousands, and saying that that country should not exist, pretty much makes it genocide to me.
well legally its not
There is a very strong prima facie case for genocide. Article II: In the present Convention, genocide means any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such:
(a) Killing members of the group; (b) Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group; (c) Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part; (d) Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group; (e) Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.
The intent to destroy Ukraine as a nation is pretty clear, and at least four of those five tests have been met. Whether a genocide case would be proven is an open question, but to say that “it isn’t genocide, legally” is just incorrect.
Note that some of Hitler’s crew were prosecuted under genocide for their actions in destroying the Czechoslovakian state. Separately from the Holocaust charges.
except whilst all that may be true its not what i said was not genocide (the TV talk ).I dont wnat to especially dance on pin heads here but find fanning the flames of this war very worrying given the world is at stake. There needs to be a negotiation and and end soon
If you are going to nitpick, (b) fits the bill. At best they are gaslighting an entire fucking country. But I think your just being silly.
I am sorry but gaslighting an entire country is not genocide either -
Why do you object to this so much? The context is crucial. Russia is trying to wipe Ukraine out of existence. Make no mistake they tried to invade and seize Kiev and effect regime change. They failed. Now they are settling for trying to seize parts of the east while murdering civilians, raping children, and endless other horrors. Then on the tv they talk about the idea of BeingUkrainian must not be allowed. And you quibble about it not being genocidal talk? You couldn’t be more wrong.
well its a legal definition that is not what the TV talk said - so its not genocide is it? - I really dont see how I could be more wrong.
Context, FFS.
well the original poster did not express it in context as you say - they just said it was genocidal talk - well its not is it? As for context I dont know , has Boris said they are committing genocide or the UN? No point willing something that is not technically true
It absolutely IS genocidal talk. Denying an entire country the right to be a country. Take a step back and think about it a bit.
If that is what the West thinks there can be no justification for not becoming directly involved on the ground.
Actually that’s not true. Any duty to act has to include evaluation of the likely consequences.
Supplying Ukraine with sufficient arms to defeat the invasion is a proportionate, and justified response.
To defeat an invasion, sure. But if genocide is going on should we be slow stepping this? Is allowing a little bit of genocide to go on ok? I feel like there aren't half measures where the g word is coming in.
The west should certainly be faster in supplying heavy weapons and aircraft - which it’s hesitated over for too long already.
Sending in our own forces still risks something worse.
Interesting. HYUFD thinks that 500 losses will spell curtains for Boris. I disagree: Boris will put it about that councillors are a bureaucratic obsolescence anyway and it's about time these people got proper jobs. There is literally nothing that Boris can say or do that won't be met with Tory approval.
Given how most Tory Associations are run by councillors, if he took that attitude Tory Associations will tell their MPs to get rid of him
Just remember, however bad things get with Boris, it would be worse with Corbyn. Out of NATO, no NLAWs to Ukraine, no special forces in Ukraine, he would be embarrassing us on the world stage with calls for peace and dialogue with Russia. We really dodged a bullet in 2019, thanks largely to the politics of Brexit. Funny how these things go.
That was worth reflecting on at the start, but has no additional impact. Its true and everyone has moved on.
Really? I reckon there are still plenty in Labour who would get us out of NATO even if it meant throwing Ukraine under Russian tank tracks...
You are a bit more Reds under to he bed than even most blue blooded Conservative I suspect. Don't worry, we'll all be fine should the Conservatives lose the next election.
For his manifold faults Starmer has dragged Labour back from being a stop the war interest group, and the Corbynista faction seem to have lost any influence, which is good news.
From a Centrist viewpoint our current Government seem rather extreme and unnecessarily confrontational with anyone who doesn't worship in the Church of St. Boris.His Government have taken us out of plenty of pre- Common Market international arrangements that have made our nation poorer and less secure. Euratom for one. This is why I consider them to be as dreadfully poor as the mercifully defeated Corbyn alternative Government. It is just a shame both Corbyn and Johnson couldn't have lost in parallel in 2019.
Ah, missed it as I was too busy being wound up by a genocide denier...
be careful what you say about me as that is a serious accusation in the context of historical genocides.
It's even worse in the case of current genocides I'd have thought, so why not be careful what you say about them?
So an 11 point lead for Labour, 15 point lead nailed on
Yes, I now believe Starmer will be PM post 2024
I don't see how the Tories recover from this. Sunak's implosion was kinda the last straw
The Tories have now been in power far too long, for all the ideas they have (ie: none). Bojo's victory in 2019 was essential to protect democracy and Get Brexit Done (a 2nd referendum without enacting the first would have been a calamity for the nation, utterly devaluing everyone's vote)
But the Tories are now clearly corrupt, wearied, sad, pathetic, and the moment has gone.
It is time for an alternative. I wish the alternative was more inspiring than SKS (and less pathetically woke) but so be it, this is what we have
Incidentally I reckon Starmer will refuse Sindyref2 for the same reasons as Boris. A generation must pass. What does the SNP do then? Split, probably
Hope you are keeping well Leon.
I wonder if there is something in that, people voted Johnson to get Brexit done but that was it. And it's now time for a change now Brexit is secure.
I wonder if in time we will see 2019 as an outlier.
I am well, thankyou, CHB
You will get your wish. I am almost certain Labour will now win in 2024 (probably not a majority but a very decent lead)
And, yes, Boris' great achievement will be: Beating Corbyn and thwarting the plans to cancel democracy with a "2nd vote", and delivering actual Brexit. The Tories were emptied and exhausted, intellectually, once that was done
As a nation we HAD to enact the first Brexit referendum, the alternatives and their obvious consequences ("Sorry your vote doesn't matter, you're just a thick working class racist, so we're having a new vote to cancel your vote") are utterly unthinkable
Starmer is a shameful Remoaner, and depressingly Woke, but he will likely be UK PM. And as such I wish him well. I hope his patriotism is real, I suspect it might be. He will, by the by, keep the Union together, which is no small thing.
A new Opinium poll for the Observer suggests that the fines for Johnson and Sunak have had a more immediate impact on the chancellor’s popularity, which has hit a record low. The proportion of voters approving of the chancellor was 24%, with 49% disapproving. His net approval rating of -25 is his lowest ever. Johnson remains on a net approval rating of -26.
back to the Sinking of the Russian Flagship Moskova.
It seems that the Russian Orthodox Church had placed one of there relocks on the ship, a fragment from the cross that Jesus was crucified on. That has presumably gone down with the Ship.
(Please can we not argue about weather it was really a fragment of the cross, HYDF will say one thing and everybody else the other and we will be here all night, so please lets not go down that road. However the significant thing here is the Russian Orthodox Church pronated that it was. and this shoes:
1) The ridiculously close relationship between the Russian Orthodox Church, and the Russian State and armed forces. Whatever ones opinion of the separation of church and state, Russia today is at an absolute extreme end of this spectrum.
2) The Russians really did not expect this ship to be sunk.
To all those people who say we need to stop the war ASAP and not be sending more weapons to Ukraine - fine. But what sort of peace agreement do you envisage? Very few people seem to be answering that question. Just an assumption of 'oh well if both sides put down their arms they're bound to be able to compromise.'
Just remember, however bad things get with Boris, it would be worse with Corbyn. Out of NATO, no NLAWs to Ukraine, no special forces in Ukraine, he would be embarrassing us on the world stage with calls for peace and dialogue with Russia. We really dodged a bullet in 2019, thanks largely to the politics of Brexit. Funny how these things go.
That was worth reflecting on at the start, but has no additional impact. Its true and everyone has moved on.
Really? I reckon there are still plenty in Labour who would get us out of NATO even if it meant throwing Ukraine under Russian tank tracks...
You are a bit more Reds under to he bed than even most blue blooded Conservative I suspect. Don't worry, we'll all be fine should the Conservatives lose the next election.
For his manifold faults Starmer has dragged Labour back from being a stop the war interest group, and the Corbynista faction seem to have lost any influence, which is good news.
From a Centrist viewpoint our current Government seem rather extreme and unnecessarily confrontational with anyone who doesn't worship in the Church of St. Boris.His Government have taken us out of plenty of pre- Common Market international arrangements that have made our nation poorer and less secure. Euratom for one. This is why I consider them to be as dreadfully poor as the mercifully defeated Corbyn alternative Government. It is just a shame both Corbyn and Johnson couldn't have lost in parallel in 2019.
Ah, missed it as I was too busy being wound up by a genocide denier...
be careful what you say about me as that is a serious accusation in the context of historical genocides.
It's even worse in the case of current genocides I'd have thought, so why not be careful what you say about them?
you can argue all you like about what part of the russian TV talk is genocide or not or indeed its war - that's fair game - you will not label me a genocide denier given its historical and legal seriousness
Is there any serious work being done in Europe at the moment to prepare for an embargo of Russian oil and gas? How would we get through the winter? These things need to be considered now. I fear not enough is being done.
Could the Ukrainians be victims of their own success? Now it's assumed Russia isn't going to 'win' the war I worry people are getting complacent again. We shouldn't be tolerant of a prolonged conflict even if it's largely restricted to the east with missiles being fired into the cities on a regular basis. It was smart of Zelensky to use the Israel comparison. Having to deal with a permanent enemy who denies your right to exist.
AFAIK, coal imports are now completely banned in the EU. The main gas policy is to enforce all storage is full ahead of winter, which means more imports during the summer. There aren't any gas embargos planned at the EU level, although some countries are going further. Oil, which is the most lucrative one for Russia, is inching towards a phased embargo in the next round of EU sanctions. There are technical and political issues to sort out.
Oil is an irrelevancy, because it is (ignoring complexities of refining) fungible. The EU could give up Russian oil tomorrow, and (other than it enriching tanker owners), it would have no problem with availability. Russian cargoes bound for Europe will instead go to China or India or any one of a dozen countries who will love picking up oil at a couple of dollars discount. Those who impose sanctions, on the other hand, buy the oil previously destined for those countries... and pay a few dollars premium.
Just remember, however bad things get with Boris, it would be worse with Corbyn. Out of NATO, no NLAWs to Ukraine, no special forces in Ukraine, he would be embarrassing us on the world stage with calls for peace and dialogue with Russia. We really dodged a bullet in 2019, thanks largely to the politics of Brexit. Funny how these things go.
That was worth reflecting on at the start, but has no additional impact. Its true and everyone has moved on.
Really? I reckon there are still plenty in Labour who would get us out of NATO even if it meant throwing Ukraine under Russian tank tracks...
You are a bit more Reds under to he bed than even most blue blooded Conservative I suspect. Don't worry, we'll all be fine should the Conservatives lose the next election.
For his manifold faults Starmer has dragged Labour back from being a stop the war interest group, and the Corbynista faction seem to have lost any influence, which is good news.
From a Centrist viewpoint our current Government seem rather extreme and unnecessarily confrontational with anyone who doesn't worship in the Church of St. Boris.His Government have taken us out of plenty of pre- Common Market international arrangements that have made our nation poorer and less secure. Euratom for one. This is why I consider them to be as dreadfully poor as the mercifully defeated Corbyn alternative Government. It is just a shame both Corbyn and Johnson couldn't have lost in parallel in 2019.
Ah, missed it as I was too busy being wound up by a genocide denier...
Jesus, who was that?
I am not a genocide denier and have asked for the poster of it to be careful about his words
Yes you are. You are saying something which is in fact clear evidence of genocide, is not clear evidence of genocide.
Just remember, however bad things get with Boris, it would be worse with Corbyn. Out of NATO, no NLAWs to Ukraine, no special forces in Ukraine, he would be embarrassing us on the world stage with calls for peace and dialogue with Russia. We really dodged a bullet in 2019, thanks largely to the politics of Brexit. Funny how these things go.
That was worth reflecting on at the start, but has no additional impact. Its true and everyone has moved on.
Really? I reckon there are still plenty in Labour who would get us out of NATO even if it meant throwing Ukraine under Russian tank tracks...
You are a bit more Reds under to he bed than even most blue blooded Conservative I suspect. Don't worry, we'll all be fine should the Conservatives lose the next election.
For his manifold faults Starmer has dragged Labour back from being a stop the war interest group, and the Corbynista faction seem to have lost any influence, which is good news.
From a Centrist viewpoint our current Government seem rather extreme and unnecessarily confrontational with anyone who doesn't worship in the Church of St. Boris.His Government have taken us out of plenty of pre- Common Market international arrangements that have made our nation poorer and less secure. Euratom for one. This is why I consider them to be as dreadfully poor as the mercifully defeated Corbyn alternative Government. It is just a shame both Corbyn and Johnson couldn't have lost in parallel in 2019.
Ah, missed it as I was too busy being wound up by a genocide denier...
be careful what you say about me as that is a serious accusation in the context of historical genocides.
It's even worse in the case of current genocides I'd have thought, so why not be careful what you say about them?
you can argue all you like about what part of the russian TV talk is genocide or not or indeed its war - that's fair game - you will not label me a genocide denier given its historical and legal seriousness
If it is historically and legally serious, why not just not do it?
Just remember, however bad things get with Boris, it would be worse with Corbyn. Out of NATO, no NLAWs to Ukraine, no special forces in Ukraine, he would be embarrassing us on the world stage with calls for peace and dialogue with Russia. We really dodged a bullet in 2019, thanks largely to the politics of Brexit. Funny how these things go.
That was worth reflecting on at the start, but has no additional impact. Its true and everyone has moved on.
Really? I reckon there are still plenty in Labour who would get us out of NATO even if it meant throwing Ukraine under Russian tank tracks...
You are a bit more Reds under to he bed than even most blue blooded Conservative I suspect. Don't worry, we'll all be fine should the Conservatives lose the next election.
For his manifold faults Starmer has dragged Labour back from being a stop the war interest group, and the Corbynista faction seem to have lost any influence, which is good news.
From a Centrist viewpoint our current Government seem rather extreme and unnecessarily confrontational with anyone who doesn't worship in the Church of St. Boris.His Government have taken us out of plenty of pre- Common Market international arrangements that have made our nation poorer and less secure. Euratom for one. This is why I consider them to be as dreadfully poor as the mercifully defeated Corbyn alternative Government. It is just a shame both Corbyn and Johnson couldn't have lost in parallel in 2019.
Ah, missed it as I was too busy being wound up by a genocide denier...
Jesus, who was that?
I am not a genocide denier and have asked for the poster of it to be careful about his words
Yes you are. You are saying something which is in fact clear evidence of genocide, is not clear evidence of genocide.
maybe in your court of law - nobody else including any international or national court so shut it . You are not the law on this - you cannot accuse me of this - do you understand? Show me where it is legally found Russia has committed genocide by its TV speeches or shut up
Disastrous poll for the Tories, at what point will we discuss a Labour landslide?
I love the bar chart on the left hand side where Johnson is beating Starmer 66% to 44% - it's titled "Personal Ratings (thought to be doing badly)"
Well I am going without heating because it's mid April and unusually warm.
With respect @IshmaelZ, you and I both know that neither of us will be going without heating next winter due to lack of funds.
On the other hand I see a lot of people via Citizens Advice who were really struggling to afford heating last winter - I shudder to think how they will manage this coming winter.
Just remember, however bad things get with Boris, it would be worse with Corbyn. Out of NATO, no NLAWs to Ukraine, no special forces in Ukraine, he would be embarrassing us on the world stage with calls for peace and dialogue with Russia. We really dodged a bullet in 2019, thanks largely to the politics of Brexit. Funny how these things go.
That was worth reflecting on at the start, but has no additional impact. Its true and everyone has moved on.
Really? I reckon there are still plenty in Labour who would get us out of NATO even if it meant throwing Ukraine under Russian tank tracks...
You are a bit more Reds under to he bed than even most blue blooded Conservative I suspect. Don't worry, we'll all be fine should the Conservatives lose the next election.
For his manifold faults Starmer has dragged Labour back from being a stop the war interest group, and the Corbynista faction seem to have lost any influence, which is good news.
From a Centrist viewpoint our current Government seem rather extreme and unnecessarily confrontational with anyone who doesn't worship in the Church of St. Boris.His Government have taken us out of plenty of pre- Common Market international arrangements that have made our nation poorer and less secure. Euratom for one. This is why I consider them to be as dreadfully poor as the mercifully defeated Corbyn alternative Government. It is just a shame both Corbyn and Johnson couldn't have lost in parallel in 2019.
Ah, missed it as I was too busy being wound up by a genocide denier...
Jesus, who was that?
I am not a genocide denier and have asked for the poster of it to be careful about his words
Yes you are. You are saying something which is in fact clear evidence of genocide, is not clear evidence of genocide.
maybe in your court of law - nobody else including any international or national court so shut it . You are not the law on this - you cannot accuse me of this - do you understand?
A new Opinium poll for the Observer suggests that the fines for Johnson and Sunak have had a more immediate impact on the chancellor’s popularity, which has hit a record low. The proportion of voters approving of the chancellor was 24%, with 49% disapproving. His net approval rating of -25 is his lowest ever. Johnson remains on a net approval rating of -26.
Is there any serious work being done in Europe at the moment to prepare for an embargo of Russian oil and gas? How would we get through the winter? These things need to be considered now. I fear not enough is being done.
Could the Ukrainians be victims of their own success? Now it's assumed Russia isn't going to 'win' the war I worry people are getting complacent again. We shouldn't be tolerant of a prolonged conflict even if it's largely restricted to the east with missiles being fired into the cities on a regular basis. It was smart of Zelensky to use the Israel comparison. Having to deal with a permanent enemy who denies your right to exist.
AFAIK, coal imports are now completely banned in the EU. The main gas policy is to enforce all storage is full ahead of winter, which means more imports during the summer. There aren't any gas embargos planned at the EU level, although some countries are going further. Oil, which is the most lucrative one for Russia, is inching towards a phased embargo in the next round of EU sanctions. There are technical and political issues to sort out.
Oil is an irrelevancy, because it is (ignoring complexities of refining) fungible. The EU could give up Russian oil tomorrow, and (other than it enriching tanker owners), it would have no problem with availability. Russian cargoes bound for Europe will instead go to China or India or any one of a dozen countries who will love picking up oil at a couple of dollars discount. Those who impose sanctions, on the other hand, buy the oil previously destined for those countries... and pay a few dollars premium.
There is no EU ban on coal imports.
What about the costs of sending it to India/China?
It's very revealing that pro-Kremlin figures are already explicitly advocating a withdrawal and what really stands out here is the comment - "do we need to get into another Afghanistan, but even worse?". https://twitter.com/nexta_tv/status/1515412789698912266
Do we know anything about the chap that made that comment?
At a guess he is one a numbers talking heads, and not that indicative of the nation or government as a whole, On the other hand if opinion was changing, what might be some early sines be?
To all those people who say we need to stop the war ASAP and not be sending more weapons to Ukraine - fine. But what sort of peace agreement do you envisage? Very few people seem to be answering that question. Just an assumption of 'oh well if both sides put down their arms they're bound to be able to compromise.'
Who are those people (beyond the usual STW zealots)? I haven't seen them posting on here.
Clearly a good poll for Labour. Though at least the Tories have not yet fallen to Major, Brown or May levels of 30% or less
It's not that long ago (checks: last autumn) that we wondered if 40% was a fairly solid floor for the Conservatives and how Labour would ever get a lead.
This website is interesting, it predicts a Labour majority of 1 in Barnet (which is credible) and huge Labour majorities in both Wandsworth and very dubiously Westminster.
I think it is a bit hard on the LDs overall and Labour could still end up slightly down in seats even if they gain Barnet and/or Wandsworth.
Clearly a good poll for Labour. Though at least the Tories have not yet fallen to Major, Brown or May levels of 30% or less
It's not that long ago (checks: last autumn) that we wondered if 40% was a fairly solid floor for the Conservatives and how Labour would ever get a lead.
A new Opinium poll for the Observer suggests that the fines for Johnson and Sunak have had a more immediate impact on the chancellor’s popularity, which has hit a record low. The proportion of voters approving of the chancellor was 24%, with 49% disapproving. His net approval rating of -25 is his lowest ever. Johnson remains on a net approval rating of -26.
Is there any serious work being done in Europe at the moment to prepare for an embargo of Russian oil and gas? How would we get through the winter? These things need to be considered now. I fear not enough is being done.
Could the Ukrainians be victims of their own success? Now it's assumed Russia isn't going to 'win' the war I worry people are getting complacent again. We shouldn't be tolerant of a prolonged conflict even if it's largely restricted to the east with missiles being fired into the cities on a regular basis. It was smart of Zelensky to use the Israel comparison. Having to deal with a permanent enemy who denies your right to exist.
AFAIK, coal imports are now completely banned in the EU. The main gas policy is to enforce all storage is full ahead of winter, which means more imports during the summer. There aren't any gas embargos planned at the EU level, although some countries are going further. Oil, which is the most lucrative one for Russia, is inching towards a phased embargo in the next round of EU sanctions. There are technical and political issues to sort out.
Oil is an irrelevancy, because it is (ignoring complexities of refining) fungible. The EU could give up Russian oil tomorrow, and (other than it enriching tanker owners), it would have no problem with availability. Russian cargoes bound for Europe will instead go to China or India or any one of a dozen countries who will love picking up oil at a couple of dollars discount. Those who impose sanctions, on the other hand, buy the oil previously destined for those countries... and pay a few dollars premium.
There is no EU ban on coal imports.
What about the costs of sending it to India/China?
If Russia is denied the Black Sea and the Gulf of Finland as routes for oil exports they'll be in a bit of a pickle even though the commodity is fungible.
On that poll Labour would gain Basingstoke, is there value in the bets there now if possible to bet?
Sitting here in Basingstoke, I still can't see it; although the proposed boundary changes make the constituency more centred on the town itself and loses some of the rural (Tory) hinterland.
It's very revealing that pro-Kremlin figures are already explicitly advocating a withdrawal and what really stands out here is the comment - "do we need to get into another Afghanistan, but even worse?". https://twitter.com/nexta_tv/status/1515412789698912266
Do we know anything about the chap that made that comment?
At a guess he is one a numbers talking heads, and not that indicative of the nation or government as a whole, On the other hand if opinion was changing, what might be some early sines be?
One of the early signs might be commentary like that being allowed out on Russian media channels.
On that poll Labour would gain Basingstoke, is there value in the bets there now if possible to bet?
Sitting here in Basingstoke, I still can't see it; although the proposed boundary changes make the constituency more centred on the town itself and loses some of the rural (Tory) hinterland.
Hope you are doing well @OldBasing, I am down in your neck of the woods over Easter.
A new Opinium poll for the Observer suggests that the fines for Johnson and Sunak have had a more immediate impact on the chancellor’s popularity, which has hit a record low. The proportion of voters approving of the chancellor was 24%, with 49% disapproving. His net approval rating of -25 is his lowest ever. Johnson remains on a net approval rating of -26.
To all those people who say we need to stop the war ASAP and not be sending more weapons to Ukraine - fine. But what sort of peace agreement do you envisage? Very few people seem to be answering that question. Just an assumption of 'oh well if both sides put down their arms they're bound to be able to compromise.'
well I am no expert on the demographics of Ukraine but I imagine a settlement will need to be drawn up along something that resembles those lines - Its not the best solution and I condemn Russia for the war FWIW but let me turn it around and ask you what do you hope to achieve by prolonging the war because Russia is not going to be pushed back to its borders and go home by military force - look at the size of the two armies for that
On that poll Labour would gain Basingstoke, is there value in the bets there now if possible to bet?
Sitting here in Basingstoke, I still can't see it; although the proposed boundary changes make the constituency more centred on the town itself and loses some of the rural (Tory) hinterland.
Hope you are doing well @OldBasing, I am down in your neck of the woods over Easter.
Is there any serious work being done in Europe at the moment to prepare for an embargo of Russian oil and gas? How would we get through the winter? These things need to be considered now. I fear not enough is being done.
Could the Ukrainians be victims of their own success? Now it's assumed Russia isn't going to 'win' the war I worry people are getting complacent again. We shouldn't be tolerant of a prolonged conflict even if it's largely restricted to the east with missiles being fired into the cities on a regular basis. It was smart of Zelensky to use the Israel comparison. Having to deal with a permanent enemy who denies your right to exist.
AFAIK, coal imports are now completely banned in the EU. The main gas policy is to enforce all storage is full ahead of winter, which means more imports during the summer. There aren't any gas embargos planned at the EU level, although some countries are going further. Oil, which is the most lucrative one for Russia, is inching towards a phased embargo in the next round of EU sanctions. There are technical and political issues to sort out.
Oil is an irrelevancy, because it is (ignoring complexities of refining) fungible. The EU could give up Russian oil tomorrow, and (other than it enriching tanker owners), it would have no problem with availability. Russian cargoes bound for Europe will instead go to China or India or any one of a dozen countries who will love picking up oil at a couple of dollars discount. Those who impose sanctions, on the other hand, buy the oil previously destined for those countries... and pay a few dollars premium.
There is no EU ban on coal imports.
What about the costs of sending it to India/China?
If Russia is denied the Black Sea and the Gulf of Finland as routes for oil exports they'll be in a bit of a pickle even though the commodity is fungible.
Wouldn't that be a effective declaration of war? I suppose we could argue that we will embargo your ships if you stop vessels leaving Odessa.
A new Opinium poll for the Observer suggests that the fines for Johnson and Sunak have had a more immediate impact on the chancellor’s popularity, which has hit a record low. The proportion of voters approving of the chancellor was 24%, with 49% disapproving. His net approval rating of -25 is his lowest ever. Johnson remains on a net approval rating of -26.
Deltapoll is an 11.5% swing from the Conservatives to Labour from the 2019 GE. That. as has been already been mentioned, would see Labour back with a working majority.
In terms of next month's locals, what does it tell us? This time four years ago, the Conservatives led Labour in most polls - up to five points ahead with YouGov. The question is how will the protest vote manifest? In different forms depending on the location would seem the obvious answers.
Any candidate from any or no party able to clearly position themselves as the likely beneficiary of a protest vote is likely to benefit so while Labour may do well we could well see both the LDs and Greens advance as well as Independent and Residents candidates.
We've seen 800 Conservative losses referenced - that would be 40% of all sitting Conservative councillors in this cycle - that seems high. In 2019, the party lost 1,330 seats but still elected 3,594 councillors. I'm not sure for instance what the scope for further losses in London would be - to take out 40% would mean 200 losses in the capital which may be stretching it a bit.
Nonetheless, losing Barnet and Wandsworth now seems conceivable - could Hillingdon fall as well leaving Kensington & Chelsea, Westminster, Bromley and Bexley as London Boroughs with Conservative majorities?
Comments
For his manifold faults Starmer has dragged Labour back from being a stop the war interest group, and the Corbynista faction seem to have lost any influence, which is good news.
From a Centrist viewpoint our current Government seem rather extreme and unnecessarily confrontational with anyone who doesn't worship in the Church of St. Boris.His Government have taken us out of plenty of pre- Common Market international arrangements that have made our nation poorer and less secure. Euratom for one. This is why I consider them to be as dreadfully poor as the mercifully defeated Corbyn alternative Government. It is just a shame both Corbyn and Johnson couldn't have lost in parallel in 2019.
I believe evil needs to be fought. We should help the Ukrainians to resist evil in its purest form.
Meanwhile the definition of Genocide is pretty clear: a crime where acts are committed with the intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnic, racial, or religious group. There is a likelihood but not a certainty that Russian crimes are genocidal in nature.
However, genocidal or not, there is simply no doubt that the Russian army is committing war crimes. It is deliberately targetting civilians and cimmitting crimes against humanity as defined under the 1949 Geneva Conventions and the Rome statute of the International Criminal Court with acts that include:
murder.
extermination.
enslavement.
deportation.
mass systematic rape and sexual enslavement in a time of war.
other inhumane acts.
The contempt of the civilised world for the brutality of the Russian attack is wholly justified. Given that there is photgraphic evidence of those committing various crimes, I sincerely hope that those responsible who have survived in the Russian armed forces should face a criminal tribunal and those that sent them should be equally condemned.
But let justice run down like water, And righteousness like a mighty stream.
The situation inside Russia itself is getting worse and the repression continues to grow. It is a delirium of absurd lies and wild threats. The country seems to be on the brink of a nervous breakdown with consequences we do not yet understand.
🌹LAB: 43% (+3)
🌳CON: 32% (-2)
🔶LDM: 9% (-1)
via, @DeltapollUK • Changes w/08-11/03
@bigjohnowls please explain
Where did this one come from? I agree with you, but why did you post it?😀
I’ve never understood all this anti French sentiment in the UK .
Disastrous poll for the Tories, at what point will we discuss a Labour landslide?
Perhaps the biggest danger is that the Tories will see the future and actually change leader in time to reverse some of the damage.
Edited - Beaten to it by CHB.
Macron needs to move fast to adopt some of Le Pen's policies and peel 3-4% of her voters away.
I don't see how the Tories recover from this. Sunak's implosion was kinda the last straw
The Tories have now been in power far too long, for all the ideas they have (ie: none). Bojo's victory in 2019 was essential to protect democracy and Get Brexit Done (a 2nd referendum without enacting the first would have been a calamity for the nation, utterly devaluing everyone's vote)
But the Tories are now clearly corrupt, wearied, sad, pathetic, and the moment has gone.
It is time for an alternative. I wish the alternative was more inspiring than SKS (and less pathetically woke) but so be it, this is what we have
Incidentally I reckon Starmer will refuse Sindyref2 for the same reasons as Boris. A generation must pass. What does the SNP do then? Split, probably
I wonder if there is something in that, people voted Johnson to get Brexit done but that was it. And it's now time for a change now Brexit is secure.
I wonder if in time we will see 2019 as an outlier.
Of course, you're not always right. But, other than @HYUFD, who is?
Literally nothing in that poll is good for the Tories. This is like Corbyn pre 2019 bad.
Obviously we won't do the quadruple, but I'm enjoying the ride.
Wait till the cost of living crisis REALLY kicks in.
Sending in our own forces still risks something worse.
Sleepy Biden? Seems pretty on form here
Importance of issues
You will get your wish. I am almost certain Labour will now win in 2024 (probably not a majority but a very decent lead)
And, yes, Boris' great achievement will be: Beating Corbyn and thwarting the plans to cancel democracy with a "2nd vote", and delivering actual Brexit. The Tories were emptied and exhausted, intellectually, once that was done
As a nation we HAD to enact the first Brexit referendum, the alternatives and their obvious consequences ("Sorry your vote doesn't matter, you're just a thick working class racist, so we're having a new vote to cancel your vote") are utterly unthinkable
Starmer is a shameful Remoaner, and depressingly Woke, but he will likely be UK PM. And as such I wish him well. I hope his patriotism is real, I suspect it might be. He will, by the by, keep the Union together, which is no small thing.
It is your turn to govern
Starmer has a 7 point lead over Johnson in the ‘Best PM’ question
Sunak’s approval is at -30 points
A disaster.
Just say "Ok, I got it wrong on this one" - it's not hard, no one will think any the worse of you (quite the contrary).
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2022/apr/16/senior-conservatives-partygate-fines-boris-johnson-rishi-sunak
It is somewhat offensive but I have seen worse.
Fortunately for the author Christians will not issue a Fatwa of death against him for insulting their main prophet though, so he has to go into hiding
There is no EU ban on coal imports.
On the other hand I see a lot of people via Citizens Advice who were really struggling to afford heating last winter - I shudder to think how they will manage this coming winter.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m0015nfd/episodes/downloads
As is The Invention of Poland by Misha Glenny on the same channel.
At a guess he is one a numbers talking heads, and not that indicative of the nation or government as a whole, On the other hand if opinion was changing, what might be some early sines be?
https://www.pollcat-stats.com/london2022/
This website is interesting, it predicts a Labour majority of 1 in Barnet (which is credible) and huge Labour majorities in both Wandsworth and very dubiously Westminster.
I think it is a bit hard on the LDs overall and Labour could still end up slightly down in seats even if they gain Barnet and/or Wandsworth.
Also predicts a Tory surge in Sutton.
https://twitter.com/MoS_Politics/status/1515433739291136005
Jesus, they are doomed
Deltapoll is an 11.5% swing from the Conservatives to Labour from the 2019 GE. That. as has been already been mentioned, would see Labour back with a working majority.
In terms of next month's locals, what does it tell us? This time four years ago, the Conservatives led Labour in most polls - up to five points ahead with YouGov. The question is how will the protest vote manifest? In different forms depending on the location would seem the obvious answers.
Any candidate from any or no party able to clearly position themselves as the likely beneficiary of a protest vote is likely to benefit so while Labour may do well we could well see both the LDs and Greens advance as well as Independent and Residents candidates.
We've seen 800 Conservative losses referenced - that would be 40% of all sitting Conservative councillors in this cycle - that seems high. In 2019, the party lost 1,330 seats but still elected 3,594 councillors. I'm not sure for instance what the scope for further losses in London would be - to take out 40% would mean 200 losses in the capital which may be stretching it a bit.
Nonetheless, losing Barnet and Wandsworth now seems conceivable - could Hillingdon fall as well leaving Kensington & Chelsea, Westminster, Bromley and Bexley as London Boroughs with Conservative majorities?