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Worrying by-election pointers for Tories ahead of May 5th – politicalbetting.com

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  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,714
    WASHINGTON — Two Ukrainian Neptune missiles hit Russia’s flagship Moskva in the Black Sea, a senior Defense official said on Friday, providing the first American confirmation that the sinking of the Russian cruiser was the result of a Ukrainian strike.

    NY Times
  • BigRichBigRich Posts: 3,492

    Incredibly, Russia is threatening to declare war on Ukraine.

    That is brilliant! LOL :) I'm looking forward to the history books, '6 weeks after invading the Russians declared war'

    This might however allow them to constituently use Conscripts in the Fighting, Not that they where not before, but it might happen on a bigger scale.
  • ohnotnowohnotnow Posts: 3,783

    ohnotnow said:

    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    Re the Rwandan thing, has this been discussed? Pics of the tourist hostel HMG have presumably leased in a tearing hurry.

    I'm not entirely sure it will satisfy some, who will see it as pampering the illegals and refugees. And I'm not entirely sure that it can handle 30K people a year.

    https://twitter.com/theipaper/status/1514569538024751113
    https://inews.co.uk/news/politics/inside-rwanda-centre-asylum-seekers-uk-channel-migrants-1575640?ito=social_itw_theipaper&utm_medium=Social&utm_source=Twitter#Echobox=1649936491

    Red Cross policy wonk:

    Jon Featonby
    @jonfeatonby

    Replying to
    @sundersays

    What I’ve only just twigged about the UK plan is that it’s using inadmissibility powers, not the offshoring powers in the bill. They will judge that someone could & should have claimed asylum elsewhere. Then they deem that claim inadmissible - not the responsibility of the UK.

    https://twitter.com/jonfeatonby/status/1514682901081821195

    ===

    So, if I have understood then what happens to them after they touch down in Rwanda is Kegame's issue not UK's.
    Do the Rwandans understand that? They're not stupid, but did HMG come clean?
    There was a Rwandan minister (I think) interviewed on the PM programme on R4 yesterday - she seemed pretty clear what they had signed up for. (She actually came across as very articulate and made me think 'why aren't our ministers on top of their brief like this').
    If you go back and look at interviews etc even with New Labour era ministers, the drop in “quality” is profound.

    Whether this is generational decline, or Boris’s tendency to deliberately appoint cretins, is not clear.
    I think I may have posted this before, but there is a late 70s Panorama with a group of journalists quizzing 'The Alternative Prime Minister - Margaret Thatcher'. And her performance is quite something - on top of details and a very, very clear idea of what she wanted to achieve and _why_. I may not agree with what she did in large parts, but I can appreciate her skill. And feel really quite despairing of even the 'top talent' of today's cabinet.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j2xpcO7tNT4
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,714
    tlg86 said:

    Incredibly, Russia is threatening to declare war on Ukraine.

    Yes, that is hilarious, but AIUI there is a practical reason Russia may need to. If they declare war, as opposes to an SMO, they have much more latitude in terms of conscription. If they declare 'war', take it as a sign that their manpower crunch is worse than expected.
    I was going to say that the sinking of the Moskva could be their pretext for war that they were after.

    But then they're denying that it was Ukraine that sank it, so that doesn't work.
    We are declaring war and mobilising all young men for the military because our warship sank in heavy seas.

  • ohnotnowohnotnow Posts: 3,783


    Haaretz (an Israeli paper that I get summaries from) says the Israeli experiment with Rwanda on similar terms collapsed, because in practice the Rwandans were not willing to provide asylum, so the migrants struggled along on the initial grant until the money ran out, and then had to depend on friends, sleep on the street or try to find their way back by illegal means. They didn't really blame the Rwandans - they did not allege any corruption or hostility - but the flaw seems to have been partly that Rwandan asylum isn't any easier to get than Israeli (or British?) asylum, and partly that no long-term plan existed, so Israel was essentially dumping ineligible applicants on Rwanda, with enough money to survive for a couple of years, after which they were nobody's problem. Israel has now ended the arrangement as it became increasingly seen as short-sighted and unfair.

    That's really interesting. I didn't even know that Israel had tried the same thing. Something to read up on, thanks!
  • Nigel_ForemainNigel_Foremain Posts: 14,310

    HYUFD said:

    kinabalu said:

    @yougov

    Who do Britons want to win the French presidential election?

    All Britons: Macron 37% / Le Pen 19%

    Con voters: Macron 24% / Le Pen 37%
    Lab voters: Macron 53% / Le Pen 8%

    There they are again, that 20%, same people - Trump, Hard Brexit, now LePen. Will also, if asked, be very keen on the idea of decanting refugees to Rwanda. What a horror show. Should be packed off to Rwanda themselves imo.
    Looking at those figures confirms for me why I left the Conservative Party. People who can endorse Le Pen have nothing in common with me. Shows the unfortunate distance and direction the Conservative Party has travelled in its desire to appease and please those who voted for Farage.
    I agree with you completely (you can share the smelling salts).

    Macron is an abject, awful, inappropriate, disaster of a quasi-effective President.

    He's also the only option on the ballot and needs to win. Anyone backing Le Pen is either ignorant or has very unpleasant politics, or both.
    Although I believe you once also voted for Farage, in some respects Le Pen is now more the French Farage than the French Nick Griffin, with economic policies closer to Labour than the Tories
    For the umpteenth time I never voted for Farage.

    I cast a protest vote to get rid of a failed Prime Minister and to expel Farage from the European Parliament.

    I have never and would never cast a vote to get Farage into Parliament, I voted to get him out of it.
    Smelling salts no longer needed. You voted for Farage. Your excuses are no doubt similar to those people in France who will use similar excuses for reasons to vote Le Pen. There are no excuses that excuse voting for fascists IMO.
    By accusing Farage of being a fascist you degrade your whole argument. But then when it comes to the EU you never had much of an argument anyway.
    It is an area where we disagree Richard, though we agree on many other areas I think. Farage is most definitely a Fascist IMO. You voted for him once I believe so I am sure you are sensitive on the subject because you are clearly not.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,714

    If Russia “declare war” they could formally start conscription. It may also open up the opportunity (at least in deranged Russian eyes) to chemical weapons and use of tactical nuke strikes.

    It’s not obvious what NATO’s response to such provocations would be.

    I'm sadly resigned to the idea that at some point Vlad will use a battlefield nuke in his desperation. Doesn't bear thinking about but seems to be where we are headed very unfortunately.

    God alone knows what the Pentagon has wargamed for that, when/if it happens.
  • Nigel_ForemainNigel_Foremain Posts: 14,310

    HYUFD said:

    kinabalu said:

    @yougov

    Who do Britons want to win the French presidential election?

    All Britons: Macron 37% / Le Pen 19%

    Con voters: Macron 24% / Le Pen 37%
    Lab voters: Macron 53% / Le Pen 8%

    There they are again, that 20%, same people - Trump, Hard Brexit, now LePen. Will also, if asked, be very keen on the idea of decanting refugees to Rwanda. What a horror show. Should be packed off to Rwanda themselves imo.
    Looking at those figures confirms for me why I left the Conservative Party. People who can endorse Le Pen have nothing in common with me. Shows the unfortunate distance and direction the Conservative Party has travelled in its desire to appease and please those who voted for Farage.
    I agree with you completely (you can share the smelling salts).

    Macron is an abject, awful, inappropriate, disaster of a quasi-effective President.

    He's also the only option on the ballot and needs to win. Anyone backing Le Pen is either ignorant or has very unpleasant politics, or both.
    Although I believe you once also voted for Farage, in some respects Le Pen is now more the French Farage than the French Nick Griffin, with economic policies closer to Labour than the Tories
    For the umpteenth time I never voted for Farage.

    I cast a protest vote to get rid of a failed Prime Minister and to expel Farage from the European Parliament.

    I have never and would never cast a vote to get Farage into Parliament, I voted to get him out of it.
    Smelling salts no longer needed. You voted for Farage. Your excuses are no doubt similar to those people in France who will use similar excuses for reasons to vote Le Pen. There are no excuses that excuse voting for fascists IMO.
    By accusing Farage of being a fascist you degrade your whole argument. But then when it comes to the EU you never had much of an argument anyway.
    It is an area where we disagree Richard, though we agree on many other areas I think. Farage is most definitely a Fascist IMO. You voted for him once I believe so I am sure you are sensitive on the subject because you are clearly not.
    PS. If by "my argument" you mean my position regarding Brexit, then I have been proven 100% correct. It was a complete and utter waste of time. It was pointless and has benefitted but a few. I am not in favour of re-join, so my "argument", old chap, is far more rational than yours, which was built on fairy tales.
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 21,298
    Germany backing away from supplying tanks.

    Tension between SDP and more hawkish Green/FDP.
  • FrankBoothFrankBooth Posts: 9,826
    Given the inability of his air force to get supremacy I cannot see how Putin gets anything out of this war unless he is prepared to use nuclear weapons. They can get a land corridor to Crimea but how long can they hold on to it. Eventually the Ukrainians are surely going to force them out. There is simply no end game for Putin.
  • Nigel_ForemainNigel_Foremain Posts: 14,310
    Farooq said:

    HYUFD said:

    kinabalu said:

    @yougov

    Who do Britons want to win the French presidential election?

    All Britons: Macron 37% / Le Pen 19%

    Con voters: Macron 24% / Le Pen 37%
    Lab voters: Macron 53% / Le Pen 8%

    There they are again, that 20%, same people - Trump, Hard Brexit, now LePen. Will also, if asked, be very keen on the idea of decanting refugees to Rwanda. What a horror show. Should be packed off to Rwanda themselves imo.
    Looking at those figures confirms for me why I left the Conservative Party. People who can endorse Le Pen have nothing in common with me. Shows the unfortunate distance and direction the Conservative Party has travelled in its desire to appease and please those who voted for Farage.
    I agree with you completely (you can share the smelling salts).

    Macron is an abject, awful, inappropriate, disaster of a quasi-effective President.

    He's also the only option on the ballot and needs to win. Anyone backing Le Pen is either ignorant or has very unpleasant politics, or both.
    Although I believe you once also voted for Farage, in some respects Le Pen is now more the French Farage than the French Nick Griffin, with economic policies closer to Labour than the Tories
    For the umpteenth time I never voted for Farage.

    I cast a protest vote to get rid of a failed Prime Minister and to expel Farage from the European Parliament.

    I have never and would never cast a vote to get Farage into Parliament, I voted to get him out of it.
    Smelling salts no longer needed. You voted for Farage. Your excuses are no doubt similar to those people in France who will use similar excuses for reasons to vote Le Pen. There are no excuses that excuse voting for fascists IMO.
    By accusing Farage of being a fascist you degrade your whole argument. But then when it comes to the EU you never had much of an argument anyway.
    It is an area where we disagree Richard, though we agree on many other areas I think. Farage is most definitely a Fascist IMO. You voted for him once I believe so I am sure you are sensitive on the subject because you are clearly not.
    PS. If by "my argument" you mean my position regarding Brexit, then I have been proven 100% correct. It was a complete and utter waste of time. It was pointless and has benefitted but a few. I am not in favour of re-join, so my "argument", old chap, is far more rational than yours, which was built on fairy tales.
    Why aren't you in favour of rejoining? Seems like a good option to me.
    IMO it isn't practical, certainly not in the short to medium term. My main objection to Brexit was that it was pointless and divisive. I think rejoining would certainly be the latter. A better half way house would be to have a strong trading relationship with EU, which might be an EEA type solution if not in name, but in practice. I suspect that maybe one day we will rejoin, but the other 27 will only allow that if there is a clear massive majority in favour. It will take many decades for that to happen.
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 15,779
    ohnotnow said:


    Haaretz (an Israeli paper that I get summaries from) says the Israeli experiment with Rwanda on similar terms collapsed, because in practice the Rwandans were not willing to provide asylum, so the migrants struggled along on the initial grant until the money ran out, and then had to depend on friends, sleep on the street or try to find their way back by illegal means. They didn't really blame the Rwandans - they did not allege any corruption or hostility - but the flaw seems to have been partly that Rwandan asylum isn't any easier to get than Israeli (or British?) asylum, and partly that no long-term plan existed, so Israel was essentially dumping ineligible applicants on Rwanda, with enough money to survive for a couple of years, after which they were nobody's problem. Israel has now ended the arrangement as it became increasingly seen as short-sighted and unfair.

    That's really interesting. I didn't even know that Israel had tried the same thing. Something to read up on, thanks!
    Perhaps Priti Patel got the idea when she was doing her freelance foreign policy with the Israelis a few year back. She obviously didn't understand the part about it being a shameful failure, owing to her being thick as pig shit.
  • JohnLilburneJohnLilburne Posts: 6,241
    tlg86 said:

    Incredibly, Russia is threatening to declare war on Ukraine.

    Yes, that is hilarious, but AIUI there is a practical reason Russia may need to. If they declare war, as opposes to an SMO, they have much more latitude in terms of conscription. If they declare 'war', take it as a sign that their manpower crunch is worse than expected.
    I was going to say that the sinking of the Moskva could be their pretext for war that they were after.

    But then they're denying that it was Ukraine that sank it, so that doesn't work.
    Can we/the Ukrainians get the rest of the Black Sea fleet? Or drop some munitions on Sevastopol?
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,921

    Farooq said:

    HYUFD said:

    kinabalu said:

    @yougov

    Who do Britons want to win the French presidential election?

    All Britons: Macron 37% / Le Pen 19%

    Con voters: Macron 24% / Le Pen 37%
    Lab voters: Macron 53% / Le Pen 8%

    There they are again, that 20%, same people - Trump, Hard Brexit, now LePen. Will also, if asked, be very keen on the idea of decanting refugees to Rwanda. What a horror show. Should be packed off to Rwanda themselves imo.
    Looking at those figures confirms for me why I left the Conservative Party. People who can endorse Le Pen have nothing in common with me. Shows the unfortunate distance and direction the Conservative Party has travelled in its desire to appease and please those who voted for Farage.
    I agree with you completely (you can share the smelling salts).

    Macron is an abject, awful, inappropriate, disaster of a quasi-effective President.

    He's also the only option on the ballot and needs to win. Anyone backing Le Pen is either ignorant or has very unpleasant politics, or both.
    Although I believe you once also voted for Farage, in some respects Le Pen is now more the French Farage than the French Nick Griffin, with economic policies closer to Labour than the Tories
    For the umpteenth time I never voted for Farage.

    I cast a protest vote to get rid of a failed Prime Minister and to expel Farage from the European Parliament.

    I have never and would never cast a vote to get Farage into Parliament, I voted to get him out of it.
    Smelling salts no longer needed. You voted for Farage. Your excuses are no doubt similar to those people in France who will use similar excuses for reasons to vote Le Pen. There are no excuses that excuse voting for fascists IMO.
    By accusing Farage of being a fascist you degrade your whole argument. But then when it comes to the EU you never had much of an argument anyway.
    It is an area where we disagree Richard, though we agree on many other areas I think. Farage is most definitely a Fascist IMO. You voted for him once I believe so I am sure you are sensitive on the subject because you are clearly not.
    PS. If by "my argument" you mean my position regarding Brexit, then I have been proven 100% correct. It was a complete and utter waste of time. It was pointless and has benefitted but a few. I am not in favour of re-join, so my "argument", old chap, is far more rational than yours, which was built on fairy tales.
    Why aren't you in favour of rejoining? Seems like a good option to me.
    IMO it isn't practical, certainly not in the short to medium term. My main objection to Brexit was that it was pointless and divisive. I think rejoining would certainly be the latter. A better half way house would be to have a strong trading relationship with EU, which might be an EEA type solution if not in name, but in practice. I suspect that maybe one day we will rejoin, but the other 27 will only allow that if there is a clear massive majority in favour. It will take many decades for that to happen.
    We won't rejoin the full EU now. That would require the Euro and Schengen. EEA is possible once immigration is under control.

    However it is more likely non Eurozone Sweden, Denmark, Poland and Hungary leave the EU than the UK rejoins it
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,714
    "My father died defending Russia and now Russia is bombing me"

    92 year old sums up the utter stupidity of Vlad's war on Ukraine:



    In City Hospital No. 2, I met a woman whose story—her whole presence, really—affected me as rawly as anyone I've met in nearly two months of war. Meet ninety-two year-old Nina Rogacheva:

    https://twitter.com/yaffaesque/status/1514936470183763968
  • mwadamsmwadams Posts: 3,590

    If Russia “declare war” they could formally start conscription. It may also open up the opportunity (at least in deranged Russian eyes) to chemical weapons and use of tactical nuke strikes.

    It’s not obvious what NATO’s response to such provocations would be.

    I'm sadly resigned to the idea that at some point Vlad will use a battlefield nuke in his desperation. Doesn't bear thinking about but seems to be where we are headed very unfortunately.

    God alone knows what the Pentagon has wargamed for that, when/if it happens.
    I would imagine that even China might be quite upset about that.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,553
    edited April 2022
    More on this, which we were discussing earlier.

    "Charlemagne
    Thank the elderly for keeping Europe’s extremists out of power
    Emmanuel Macron depends on grey-haired voters for support

    If Emmanuel Macron, the youngest-ever president of France’s Fifth Republic, gets to keep his job he will have its oldest voters to thank. Had only the ballots of those under 60 been counted in the first round on April 10th, Mr Macron would have come third—leaving France to pick between extremists of the left and right in the run-off a fortnight later." (£)

    https://www.economist.com/europe/2022/04/16/thank-the-elderly-for-keeping-europes-extremists-out-of-power
  • mwadamsmwadams Posts: 3,590
    tlg86 said:

    Incredibly, Russia is threatening to declare war on Ukraine.

    Yes, that is hilarious, but AIUI there is a practical reason Russia may need to. If they declare war, as opposes to an SMO, they have much more latitude in terms of conscription. If they declare 'war', take it as a sign that their manpower crunch is worse than expected.
    I was going to say that the sinking of the Moskva could be their pretext for war that they were after.

    But then they're denying that it was Ukraine that sank it, so that doesn't work.
    In their strange netherworld, they are reporting both that it wasn't the Ukrainian forces that sank the ship *and* that their missile attacks on Kiev last night were revenge for the sinking of the ship.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,714

    ohnotnow said:


    Haaretz (an Israeli paper that I get summaries from) says the Israeli experiment with Rwanda on similar terms collapsed, because in practice the Rwandans were not willing to provide asylum, so the migrants struggled along on the initial grant until the money ran out, and then had to depend on friends, sleep on the street or try to find their way back by illegal means. They didn't really blame the Rwandans - they did not allege any corruption or hostility - but the flaw seems to have been partly that Rwandan asylum isn't any easier to get than Israeli (or British?) asylum, and partly that no long-term plan existed, so Israel was essentially dumping ineligible applicants on Rwanda, with enough money to survive for a couple of years, after which they were nobody's problem. Israel has now ended the arrangement as it became increasingly seen as short-sighted and unfair.

    That's really interesting. I didn't even know that Israel had tried the same thing. Something to read up on, thanks!
    Perhaps Priti Patel got the idea when she was doing her freelance foreign policy with the Israelis a few year back. She obviously didn't understand the part about it being a shameful failure, owing to her being thick as pig shit.
    The whole thing shows how desperate Johnson's crew are becoming as the polls turn against them and their glorious leader becomes as popular as the clap.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,921
    Andy_JS said:

    More on this, which we were discussing earlier.

    "Charlemagne
    Thank the elderly for keeping Europe’s extremists out of power
    Emmanuel Macron depends on grey-haired voters for support

    If Emmanuel Macron, the youngest-ever president of France’s Fifth Republic, gets to keep his job he will have its oldest voters to thank. Had only the ballots of those under 60 been counted in the first round on April 10th, Mr Macron would have come third—leaving France to pick between extremists of the left and right in the run-off a fortnight later." (£)

    https://www.economist.com/europe/2022/04/16/thank-the-elderly-for-keeping-europes-extremists-out-of-power

    Indeed and more 2017 Fillon voters voted for Macron in the first round than Pecresse. Most of them were over 60
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 15,779
    A lovely day walking in the Black Forest. Germany is such a well-functioning, prosperous country, the roads full of cars and trucks from all over Europe carrying people and goods across seamless borders to boost trade and mutual prosperity. Mean-spirited, incompetent Britain, obsessed with securing its borders (an impossible goal in any case) while trade whithers and the country falls even further behind, seems very far away.
    People drive bloody fast on the autobahn though, don't they. 170 was all I could tolerate.
  • Nigel_ForemainNigel_Foremain Posts: 14,310
    HYUFD said:

    Farooq said:

    HYUFD said:

    kinabalu said:

    @yougov

    Who do Britons want to win the French presidential election?

    All Britons: Macron 37% / Le Pen 19%

    Con voters: Macron 24% / Le Pen 37%
    Lab voters: Macron 53% / Le Pen 8%

    There they are again, that 20%, same people - Trump, Hard Brexit, now LePen. Will also, if asked, be very keen on the idea of decanting refugees to Rwanda. What a horror show. Should be packed off to Rwanda themselves imo.
    Looking at those figures confirms for me why I left the Conservative Party. People who can endorse Le Pen have nothing in common with me. Shows the unfortunate distance and direction the Conservative Party has travelled in its desire to appease and please those who voted for Farage.
    I agree with you completely (you can share the smelling salts).

    Macron is an abject, awful, inappropriate, disaster of a quasi-effective President.

    He's also the only option on the ballot and needs to win. Anyone backing Le Pen is either ignorant or has very unpleasant politics, or both.
    Although I believe you once also voted for Farage, in some respects Le Pen is now more the French Farage than the French Nick Griffin, with economic policies closer to Labour than the Tories
    For the umpteenth time I never voted for Farage.

    I cast a protest vote to get rid of a failed Prime Minister and to expel Farage from the European Parliament.

    I have never and would never cast a vote to get Farage into Parliament, I voted to get him out of it.
    Smelling salts no longer needed. You voted for Farage. Your excuses are no doubt similar to those people in France who will use similar excuses for reasons to vote Le Pen. There are no excuses that excuse voting for fascists IMO.
    By accusing Farage of being a fascist you degrade your whole argument. But then when it comes to the EU you never had much of an argument anyway.
    It is an area where we disagree Richard, though we agree on many other areas I think. Farage is most definitely a Fascist IMO. You voted for him once I believe so I am sure you are sensitive on the subject because you are clearly not.
    PS. If by "my argument" you mean my position regarding Brexit, then I have been proven 100% correct. It was a complete and utter waste of time. It was pointless and has benefitted but a few. I am not in favour of re-join, so my "argument", old chap, is far more rational than yours, which was built on fairy tales.
    Why aren't you in favour of rejoining? Seems like a good option to me.
    IMO it isn't practical, certainly not in the short to medium term. My main objection to Brexit was that it was pointless and divisive. I think rejoining would certainly be the latter. A better half way house would be to have a strong trading relationship with EU, which might be an EEA type solution if not in name, but in practice. I suspect that maybe one day we will rejoin, but the other 27 will only allow that if there is a clear massive majority in favour. It will take many decades for that to happen.
    We won't rejoin the full EU now. That would require the Euro and Schengen. EEA is possible once immigration is under control.

    However it is more likely non Eurozone Sweden, Denmark, Poland and Hungary leave the EU than the UK rejoins it
    Well of course not "now" Sherlock! As for those other countries I assume you know very little about them. The chances of any of them including Hungary following the laughing stock Brexit model is infinitesimally small
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,561
    BigRich said:

    Incredibly, Russia is threatening to declare war on Ukraine.

    That is brilliant! LOL :) I'm looking forward to the history books, '6 weeks after invading the Russians declared war'

    This might however allow them to constituently use Conscripts in the Fighting, Not that they where not before, but it might happen on a bigger scale.
    Conscription would turbocharge the already very significant brain-drain.

    By the end of this war, the average Russian IQ is going to be in the 40s.....
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,921

    HYUFD said:

    Farooq said:

    HYUFD said:

    kinabalu said:

    @yougov

    Who do Britons want to win the French presidential election?

    All Britons: Macron 37% / Le Pen 19%

    Con voters: Macron 24% / Le Pen 37%
    Lab voters: Macron 53% / Le Pen 8%

    There they are again, that 20%, same people - Trump, Hard Brexit, now LePen. Will also, if asked, be very keen on the idea of decanting refugees to Rwanda. What a horror show. Should be packed off to Rwanda themselves imo.
    Looking at those figures confirms for me why I left the Conservative Party. People who can endorse Le Pen have nothing in common with me. Shows the unfortunate distance and direction the Conservative Party has travelled in its desire to appease and please those who voted for Farage.
    I agree with you completely (you can share the smelling salts).

    Macron is an abject, awful, inappropriate, disaster of a quasi-effective President.

    He's also the only option on the ballot and needs to win. Anyone backing Le Pen is either ignorant or has very unpleasant politics, or both.
    Although I believe you once also voted for Farage, in some respects Le Pen is now more the French Farage than the French Nick Griffin, with economic policies closer to Labour than the Tories
    For the umpteenth time I never voted for Farage.

    I cast a protest vote to get rid of a failed Prime Minister and to expel Farage from the European Parliament.

    I have never and would never cast a vote to get Farage into Parliament, I voted to get him out of it.
    Smelling salts no longer needed. You voted for Farage. Your excuses are no doubt similar to those people in France who will use similar excuses for reasons to vote Le Pen. There are no excuses that excuse voting for fascists IMO.
    By accusing Farage of being a fascist you degrade your whole argument. But then when it comes to the EU you never had much of an argument anyway.
    It is an area where we disagree Richard, though we agree on many other areas I think. Farage is most definitely a Fascist IMO. You voted for him once I believe so I am sure you are sensitive on the subject because you are clearly not.
    PS. If by "my argument" you mean my position regarding Brexit, then I have been proven 100% correct. It was a complete and utter waste of time. It was pointless and has benefitted but a few. I am not in favour of re-join, so my "argument", old chap, is far more rational than yours, which was built on fairy tales.
    Why aren't you in favour of rejoining? Seems like a good option to me.
    IMO it isn't practical, certainly not in the short to medium term. My main objection to Brexit was that it was pointless and divisive. I think rejoining would certainly be the latter. A better half way house would be to have a strong trading relationship with EU, which might be an EEA type solution if not in name, but in practice. I suspect that maybe one day we will rejoin, but the other 27 will only allow that if there is a clear massive majority in favour. It will take many decades for that to happen.
    We won't rejoin the full EU now. That would require the Euro and Schengen. EEA is possible once immigration is under control.

    However it is more likely non Eurozone Sweden, Denmark, Poland and Hungary leave the EU than the UK rejoins it
    Well of course not "now" Sherlock! As for those other countries I assume you know very little about them. The chances of any of them including Hungary following the laughing stock Brexit model is infinitesimally small
    That depends. If the EU continues to move towards a Federal EU superstate and offers them a forced choice of join the Eurozone or EEA, I suspect most would choose the latter
  • EPGEPG Posts: 6,652
    Andy_JS said:

    More on this, which we were discussing earlier.

    "Charlemagne
    Thank the elderly for keeping Europe’s extremists out of power
    Emmanuel Macron depends on grey-haired voters for support

    If Emmanuel Macron, the youngest-ever president of France’s Fifth Republic, gets to keep his job he will have its oldest voters to thank. Had only the ballots of those under 60 been counted in the first round on April 10th, Mr Macron would have come third—leaving France to pick between extremists of the left and right in the run-off a fortnight later." (£)

    https://www.economist.com/europe/2022/04/16/thank-the-elderly-for-keeping-europes-extremists-out-of-power

    There is, of course, an important driver the French really don't like to talk about - the young are much more likely to be Islamic- and African-heritage than the old are. And as with Corbyn, a lot of support for Mélenchon was Muslim, or at least people whose mums and dads were Muslim.
  • BigRichBigRich Posts: 3,492
    I've spent the last 20 mints googling and I may not have covered all possibility's, but:

    I Think that the sinking of the Moskva, might be the largest Kremlin controled warship lost to enemy action at sea in 106 years. That is since the loss of the battleship Imperatritsa Mariya on 20 Oct 2016.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_battleship_Imperatritsa_Mariya

    They did scuttle a few of there ships in dock to avoid them being captured during WW2 But not at sea.

    https://uboat.net/allies/warships/war_losses.html?navy=USSR

    The closest 'ambiguous' case I can find is the Pre-Dregnote battleship Marat, which was bombed and sunk at anchor on 23 Sep 1941, but she 'sank' in very shallow water with her guns above the waterline, so the soviets kept there men on her and she helped in the siege of Leningrad, after which she was re-floated, and sent for reparse, (reparses where cancelled and she was scraped after the war) which as she kept on fighting thought I don't think counts.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_battleship_Petropavlovsk_(1911)

    In the civil war lots of ships had mutanes and changed hands but from what I can find non that was sunk.

    But there you are, Putin has lost the Biggest warship in 106 years. now ready for all the history buffs on here to tell me I missed something obvious.
  • Nigel_ForemainNigel_Foremain Posts: 14,310
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Farooq said:

    HYUFD said:

    kinabalu said:

    @yougov

    Who do Britons want to win the French presidential election?

    All Britons: Macron 37% / Le Pen 19%

    Con voters: Macron 24% / Le Pen 37%
    Lab voters: Macron 53% / Le Pen 8%

    There they are again, that 20%, same people - Trump, Hard Brexit, now LePen. Will also, if asked, be very keen on the idea of decanting refugees to Rwanda. What a horror show. Should be packed off to Rwanda themselves imo.
    Looking at those figures confirms for me why I left the Conservative Party. People who can endorse Le Pen have nothing in common with me. Shows the unfortunate distance and direction the Conservative Party has travelled in its desire to appease and please those who voted for Farage.
    I agree with you completely (you can share the smelling salts).

    Macron is an abject, awful, inappropriate, disaster of a quasi-effective President.

    He's also the only option on the ballot and needs to win. Anyone backing Le Pen is either ignorant or has very unpleasant politics, or both.
    Although I believe you once also voted for Farage, in some respects Le Pen is now more the French Farage than the French Nick Griffin, with economic policies closer to Labour than the Tories
    For the umpteenth time I never voted for Farage.

    I cast a protest vote to get rid of a failed Prime Minister and to expel Farage from the European Parliament.

    I have never and would never cast a vote to get Farage into Parliament, I voted to get him out of it.
    Smelling salts no longer needed. You voted for Farage. Your excuses are no doubt similar to those people in France who will use similar excuses for reasons to vote Le Pen. There are no excuses that excuse voting for fascists IMO.
    By accusing Farage of being a fascist you degrade your whole argument. But then when it comes to the EU you never had much of an argument anyway.
    It is an area where we disagree Richard, though we agree on many other areas I think. Farage is most definitely a Fascist IMO. You voted for him once I believe so I am sure you are sensitive on the subject because you are clearly not.
    PS. If by "my argument" you mean my position regarding Brexit, then I have been proven 100% correct. It was a complete and utter waste of time. It was pointless and has benefitted but a few. I am not in favour of re-join, so my "argument", old chap, is far more rational than yours, which was built on fairy tales.
    Why aren't you in favour of rejoining? Seems like a good option to me.
    IMO it isn't practical, certainly not in the short to medium term. My main objection to Brexit was that it was pointless and divisive. I think rejoining would certainly be the latter. A better half way house would be to have a strong trading relationship with EU, which might be an EEA type solution if not in name, but in practice. I suspect that maybe one day we will rejoin, but the other 27 will only allow that if there is a clear massive majority in favour. It will take many decades for that to happen.
    We won't rejoin the full EU now. That would require the Euro and Schengen. EEA is possible once immigration is under control.

    However it is more likely non Eurozone Sweden, Denmark, Poland and Hungary leave the EU than the UK rejoins it
    Well of course not "now" Sherlock! As for those other countries I assume you know very little about them. The chances of any of them including Hungary following the laughing stock Brexit model is infinitesimally small
    That depends. If the EU continues to move towards a Federal EU superstate and offers them a forced choice of join the Eurozone or EEA, I suspect most would choose the latter
    Which is why, obviously, such a forced choice won't be offered. The EU is not what less informed Tories want to think it is. It is an organisation based on compromise and fudge. It is why it is not anything like the bogeyman Brexiteers pretend (for their own reasons) that it is.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,860
    Having crossed and now left France, it is striking that there aren't any signs of an election on - apart from extensive coverage on the radio. But no posters, no street stalls in town squares, no teams of canvassers or activists that I saw. Don't the French do physical electioneering at all?
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 21,298
    Shockingly depraved.
    Wife encourages soldier husband to rape Ukrainian women.
    How on earth has Russia bred such evil?

    https://twitter.com/ostapyarysh/status/1515008736959643652?s=21&t=w1pk6qIFoQKPY2Bkxb6q6Q

    —Go, rape Ukrainian women, OK? But don't tell me anything!
    —Can I?
    —Yes, I let you. But use condoms!

    Remember this intercepted call between the RUS soldier and his wife? @cxemu and @SvobodaRadio reporters managed to identify them. Meet Roman Bykovsky and Olga Bykovska. Thread🧵
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 21,298

    HYUFD said:

    Farooq said:

    HYUFD said:

    kinabalu said:

    @yougov

    Who do Britons want to win the French presidential election?

    All Britons: Macron 37% / Le Pen 19%

    Con voters: Macron 24% / Le Pen 37%
    Lab voters: Macron 53% / Le Pen 8%

    There they are again, that 20%, same people - Trump, Hard Brexit, now LePen. Will also, if asked, be very keen on the idea of decanting refugees to Rwanda. What a horror show. Should be packed off to Rwanda themselves imo.
    Looking at those figures confirms for me why I left the Conservative Party. People who can endorse Le Pen have nothing in common with me. Shows the unfortunate distance and direction the Conservative Party has travelled in its desire to appease and please those who voted for Farage.
    I agree with you completely (you can share the smelling salts).

    Macron is an abject, awful, inappropriate, disaster of a quasi-effective President.

    He's also the only option on the ballot and needs to win. Anyone backing Le Pen is either ignorant or has very unpleasant politics, or both.
    Although I believe you once also voted for Farage, in some respects Le Pen is now more the French Farage than the French Nick Griffin, with economic policies closer to Labour than the Tories
    For the umpteenth time I never voted for Farage.

    I cast a protest vote to get rid of a failed Prime Minister and to expel Farage from the European Parliament.

    I have never and would never cast a vote to get Farage into Parliament, I voted to get him out of it.
    Smelling salts no longer needed. You voted for Farage. Your excuses are no doubt similar to those people in France who will use similar excuses for reasons to vote Le Pen. There are no excuses that excuse voting for fascists IMO.
    By accusing Farage of being a fascist you degrade your whole argument. But then when it comes to the EU you never had much of an argument anyway.
    It is an area where we disagree Richard, though we agree on many other areas I think. Farage is most definitely a Fascist IMO. You voted for him once I believe so I am sure you are sensitive on the subject because you are clearly not.
    PS. If by "my argument" you mean my position regarding Brexit, then I have been proven 100% correct. It was a complete and utter waste of time. It was pointless and has benefitted but a few. I am not in favour of re-join, so my "argument", old chap, is far more rational than yours, which was built on fairy tales.
    Why aren't you in favour of rejoining? Seems like a good option to me.
    IMO it isn't practical, certainly not in the short to medium term. My main objection to Brexit was that it was pointless and divisive. I think rejoining would certainly be the latter. A better half way house would be to have a strong trading relationship with EU, which might be an EEA type solution if not in name, but in practice. I suspect that maybe one day we will rejoin, but the other 27 will only allow that if there is a clear massive majority in favour. It will take many decades for that to happen.
    We won't rejoin the full EU now. That would require the Euro and Schengen. EEA is possible once immigration is under control.

    However it is more likely non Eurozone Sweden, Denmark, Poland and Hungary leave the EU than the UK rejoins it
    Well of course not "now" Sherlock! As for those other countries I assume you know very little about them. The chances of any of them including Hungary following the laughing stock Brexit model is infinitesimally small
    Hungary might get kicked out, although not until things are resolved in Ukraine.
  • Nigel_ForemainNigel_Foremain Posts: 14,310

    ohnotnow said:


    Haaretz (an Israeli paper that I get summaries from) says the Israeli experiment with Rwanda on similar terms collapsed, because in practice the Rwandans were not willing to provide asylum, so the migrants struggled along on the initial grant until the money ran out, and then had to depend on friends, sleep on the street or try to find their way back by illegal means. They didn't really blame the Rwandans - they did not allege any corruption or hostility - but the flaw seems to have been partly that Rwandan asylum isn't any easier to get than Israeli (or British?) asylum, and partly that no long-term plan existed, so Israel was essentially dumping ineligible applicants on Rwanda, with enough money to survive for a couple of years, after which they were nobody's problem. Israel has now ended the arrangement as it became increasingly seen as short-sighted and unfair.

    That's really interesting. I didn't even know that Israel had tried the same thing. Something to read up on, thanks!
    Perhaps Priti Patel got the idea when she was doing her freelance foreign policy with the Israelis a few year back. She obviously didn't understand the part about it being a shameful failure, owing to her being thick as pig shit.
    The whole thing shows how desperate Johnson's crew are becoming as the polls turn against them and their glorious leader becomes as popular as the clap.
    At least one might get a certain pleasure in the process of getting the clap. I had no such ecstasy in seeing Johnson elected, but then I guess some gullible fuckwits did.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,375
    edited April 2022
    BigRich said:

    I've spent the last 20 mints googling and I may not have covered all possibility's, but:

    I Think that the sinking of the Moskva, might be the largest Kremlin controled warship lost to enemy action at sea in 106 years. That is since the loss of the battleship Imperatritsa Mariya on 20 Oct 2016.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_battleship_Imperatritsa_Mariya

    They did scuttle a few of there ships in dock to avoid them being captured during WW2 But not at sea.

    https://uboat.net/allies/warships/war_losses.html?navy=USSR

    The closest 'ambiguous' case I can find is the Pre-Dregnote battleship Marat, which was bombed and sunk at anchor on 23 Sep 1941, but she 'sank' in very shallow water with her guns above the waterline, so the soviets kept there men on her and she helped in the siege of Leningrad, after which she was re-floated, and sent for reparse, (reparses where cancelled and she was scraped after the war) which as she kept on fighting thought I don't think counts.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_battleship_Petropavlovsk_(1911)

    In the civil war lots of ships had mutanes and changed hands but from what I can find non that was sunk.

    But there you are, Putin has lost the Biggest warship in 106 years. now ready for all the history buffs on here to tell me I missed something obvious.

    I think I'm right in saying the Russians are still trying to pretend the Kursk was lost to enemy action? Because that was very slightly bigger.

    There's a certain irony that they're claiming one flagship was sabotaged and sunk when really its torpedoes caught fire and exploded, and they're trying to pretend with the other its munitions exploded when really it was hit by enemy missiles.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,561

    Farooq said:

    HYUFD said:

    kinabalu said:

    @yougov

    Who do Britons want to win the French presidential election?

    All Britons: Macron 37% / Le Pen 19%

    Con voters: Macron 24% / Le Pen 37%
    Lab voters: Macron 53% / Le Pen 8%

    There they are again, that 20%, same people - Trump, Hard Brexit, now LePen. Will also, if asked, be very keen on the idea of decanting refugees to Rwanda. What a horror show. Should be packed off to Rwanda themselves imo.
    Looking at those figures confirms for me why I left the Conservative Party. People who can endorse Le Pen have nothing in common with me. Shows the unfortunate distance and direction the Conservative Party has travelled in its desire to appease and please those who voted for Farage.
    I agree with you completely (you can share the smelling salts).

    Macron is an abject, awful, inappropriate, disaster of a quasi-effective President.

    He's also the only option on the ballot and needs to win. Anyone backing Le Pen is either ignorant or has very unpleasant politics, or both.
    Although I believe you once also voted for Farage, in some respects Le Pen is now more the French Farage than the French Nick Griffin, with economic policies closer to Labour than the Tories
    For the umpteenth time I never voted for Farage.

    I cast a protest vote to get rid of a failed Prime Minister and to expel Farage from the European Parliament.

    I have never and would never cast a vote to get Farage into Parliament, I voted to get him out of it.
    Smelling salts no longer needed. You voted for Farage. Your excuses are no doubt similar to those people in France who will use similar excuses for reasons to vote Le Pen. There are no excuses that excuse voting for fascists IMO.
    By accusing Farage of being a fascist you degrade your whole argument. But then when it comes to the EU you never had much of an argument anyway.
    It is an area where we disagree Richard, though we agree on many other areas I think. Farage is most definitely a Fascist IMO. You voted for him once I believe so I am sure you are sensitive on the subject because you are clearly not.
    PS. If by "my argument" you mean my position regarding Brexit, then I have been proven 100% correct. It was a complete and utter waste of time. It was pointless and has benefitted but a few. I am not in favour of re-join, so my "argument", old chap, is far more rational than yours, which was built on fairy tales.
    Why aren't you in favour of rejoining? Seems like a good option to me.
    IMO it isn't practical, certainly not in the short to medium term. My main objection to Brexit was that it was pointless and divisive. I think rejoining would certainly be the latter. A better half way house would be to have a strong trading relationship with EU, which might be an EEA type solution if not in name, but in practice. I suspect that maybe one day we will rejoin, but the other 27 will only allow that if there is a clear massive majority in favour. It will take many decades for that to happen.
    You don't seem to have twigged that the EU doesn't do "a solution if not in name, but in practice". If they did, we'd have a resolution on the border in Ireland.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,083
    Leon said:

    Still hiking the Chilterns. In the majestic Ashridge Estate. And yet I learn that “75-80% of the ash trees in the UK will die in the next decade” - due to ash dieback

    This is horrendous. Why is the entire world turning to shit?

    Law of nature - We come from shit and will return to shit?
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,083

    Shockingly depraved.
    Wife encourages soldier husband to rape Ukrainian women.
    How on earth has Russia bred such evil?

    https://twitter.com/ostapyarysh/status/1515008736959643652?s=21&t=w1pk6qIFoQKPY2Bkxb6q6Q

    —Go, rape Ukrainian women, OK? But don't tell me anything!
    —Can I?
    —Yes, I let you. But use condoms!

    Remember this intercepted call between the RUS soldier and his wife? @cxemu and @SvobodaRadio reporters managed to identify them. Meet Roman Bykovsky and Olga Bykovska. Thread🧵

    I think the principle of supporting one another for a strong marriage may have been twisted somewhat.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 27,892
    kle4 said:

    Leon said:

    Still hiking the Chilterns. In the majestic Ashridge Estate. And yet I learn that “75-80% of the ash trees in the UK will die in the next decade” - due to ash dieback

    This is horrendous. Why is the entire world turning to shit?

    Law of nature - We come from shit and will return to shit?
    Earth to earth, ashes to ashes, dust to dust.
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 21,298
    edited April 2022

    Farooq said:

    HYUFD said:

    kinabalu said:

    @yougov

    Who do Britons want to win the French presidential election?

    All Britons: Macron 37% / Le Pen 19%

    Con voters: Macron 24% / Le Pen 37%
    Lab voters: Macron 53% / Le Pen 8%

    There they are again, that 20%, same people - Trump, Hard Brexit, now LePen. Will also, if asked, be very keen on the idea of decanting refugees to Rwanda. What a horror show. Should be packed off to Rwanda themselves imo.
    Looking at those figures confirms for me why I left the Conservative Party. People who can endorse Le Pen have nothing in common with me. Shows the unfortunate distance and direction the Conservative Party has travelled in its desire to appease and please those who voted for Farage.
    I agree with you completely (you can share the smelling salts).

    Macron is an abject, awful, inappropriate, disaster of a quasi-effective President.

    He's also the only option on the ballot and needs to win. Anyone backing Le Pen is either ignorant or has very unpleasant politics, or both.
    Although I believe you once also voted for Farage, in some respects Le Pen is now more the French Farage than the French Nick Griffin, with economic policies closer to Labour than the Tories
    For the umpteenth time I never voted for Farage.

    I cast a protest vote to get rid of a failed Prime Minister and to expel Farage from the European Parliament.

    I have never and would never cast a vote to get Farage into Parliament, I voted to get him out of it.
    Smelling salts no longer needed. You voted for Farage. Your excuses are no doubt similar to those people in France who will use similar excuses for reasons to vote Le Pen. There are no excuses that excuse voting for fascists IMO.
    By accusing Farage of being a fascist you degrade your whole argument. But then when it comes to the EU you never had much of an argument anyway.
    It is an area where we disagree Richard, though we agree on many other areas I think. Farage is most definitely a Fascist IMO. You voted for him once I believe so I am sure you are sensitive on the subject because you are clearly not.
    PS. If by "my argument" you mean my position regarding Brexit, then I have been proven 100% correct. It was a complete and utter waste of time. It was pointless and has benefitted but a few. I am not in favour of re-join, so my "argument", old chap, is far more rational than yours, which was built on fairy tales.
    Why aren't you in favour of rejoining? Seems like a good option to me.
    IMO it isn't practical, certainly not in the short to medium term. My main objection to Brexit was that it was pointless and divisive. I think rejoining would certainly be the latter. A better half way house would be to have a strong trading relationship with EU, which might be an EEA type solution if not in name, but in practice. I suspect that maybe one day we will rejoin, but the other 27 will only allow that if there is a clear massive majority in favour. It will take many decades for that to happen.
    You don't seem to have twigged that the EU doesn't do "a solution if not in name, but in practice". If they did, we'd have a resolution on the border in Ireland.
    Possibly true.

    But also true that British policy has consisted of badmouthing and serial gaslighting, which has hardly built confidence in such solutions.

    All cheered on by people like yourself.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,083
    tlg86 said:

    Incredibly, Russia is threatening to declare war on Ukraine.

    Yes, that is hilarious, but AIUI there is a practical reason Russia may need to. If they declare war, as opposes to an SMO, they have much more latitude in terms of conscription. If they declare 'war', take it as a sign that their manpower crunch is worse than expected.
    I was going to say that the sinking of the Moskva could be their pretext for war that they were after.

    But then they're denying that it was Ukraine that sank it, so that doesn't work.
    You underestimate their creativity.
  • Rob Key will be formally appointed as England’s new managing director of men’s cricket next week, replacing Ashley Giles who was sacked from the role after the 4-0 defeat in the Ashes.

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/rob-key-to-become-englands-managing-director-of-mens-cricket-by-next-week-cdj3dk0zl
  • SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 17,559

    I’m gutted. The Little Yellow Train is closed.

    On the slightly brighter side, there is a replacement bus service (that only costs a euro) that means I can continue with the route I’ve (barely!) planned, just without quite the views I was expecting.

    Also, where I am now in Vernet Les Bains is stunning. It’s in the foothills of the Canigou mountain. Rudyard Kipling fell in love with the mountain when staying here 111 years ago. He wrote the short story “Why Snow Falls at Vernet”, which mocks the English for always talking about the weather. And he wrote this letter to the Club Alpin where he describes it as a “magician among mountains”.

    I think I’ll cope with the disappointment somehow! And I’ll definitely be back some day to catch the little train.

    What about Crawling with the Turtles or Hopping with the Toads or whatever critters it is you wish to pester?
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,375

    Rob Key will be formally appointed as England’s new managing director of men’s cricket next week, replacing Ashley Giles who was sacked from the role after the 4-0 defeat in the Ashes.

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/rob-key-to-become-englands-managing-director-of-mens-cricket-by-next-week-cdj3dk0zl

    That's terrible news, he's a big fan of Jos Buttler.
  • stodgestodge Posts: 13,874
    Late afternoon all :)

    Out and about in suburban London and good to see plenty of people enjoying the fine Easter weather - have to say the usual "Planned Engineering Works" were the usual annoyance. The figures indicate leisure travel is more swiftly returning to pre-Covid levels than commuter traffic - the notion of disrupting the former regularly needs some re-thinking.

    On topic, another example of how politics defies simplistic solutions and works on many levels and nuances. I'm under no illusions - the LDs are not seeing a vast surge of enthusiastic new supporters who will die in the ditch for Ed Davey or Daisy Cooper. What we are seeing is a disillusioned Conservative vote utilising local by-elections and indeed local elections to send several unmistakeable messages to the Government.

    None of that suggests these voters are lost to the Government in perpetuity and indeed there's little actual enthusiasm for the alternatives on offer but said alternatives provide a usual purpose - our old mate, the protest vote, harmless in terms of running the country but deadly to Conservative council and council groups.

    Looking for instance at Bisley & West End, on the face of it a spectacular LD gain but there's less and more to it than that. Last year, the Lightwater, Bisley & West End returned a Conservative County Councillor with a 520 majority. In 2019, Bisley & West End returned two Conservatives and an Independent while Lightwater returned two Greens and a Conservative.

    Thursday's Conservative vote share in Bisley & West End was very similar to 2019 but in the absence of any other opposition candidate, the anti-Conservative vote coalesced around the LD candidate and the seat was an easy gain.

    The problem for the Conservatives is if we are comparing 2022 to 2019 it's going to be a difficult night for the Conservatives but an unconvincing one for Labour. Back in 2019, when BXP was at its height, the Conservatives and Labour were tied on an NEV of 28% - in 2018 they were tied on 35%. That suggests a 7% vote drop for the Conservatives from the last time the London Boroughs were contested.

    That would spell ordinarily a huge night for Labour but the inconvenient truth is there is still no huge direct swing from Conservative to Labour (the Wirral South effect). Instead the minor parties with local campaigning roots look set to be the big winners - the LDs, Greens, Independents, Residents and the like.
  • Nigel_ForemainNigel_Foremain Posts: 14,310

    Farooq said:

    HYUFD said:

    kinabalu said:

    @yougov

    Who do Britons want to win the French presidential election?

    All Britons: Macron 37% / Le Pen 19%

    Con voters: Macron 24% / Le Pen 37%
    Lab voters: Macron 53% / Le Pen 8%

    There they are again, that 20%, same people - Trump, Hard Brexit, now LePen. Will also, if asked, be very keen on the idea of decanting refugees to Rwanda. What a horror show. Should be packed off to Rwanda themselves imo.
    Looking at those figures confirms for me why I left the Conservative Party. People who can endorse Le Pen have nothing in common with me. Shows the unfortunate distance and direction the Conservative Party has travelled in its desire to appease and please those who voted for Farage.
    I agree with you completely (you can share the smelling salts).

    Macron is an abject, awful, inappropriate, disaster of a quasi-effective President.

    He's also the only option on the ballot and needs to win. Anyone backing Le Pen is either ignorant or has very unpleasant politics, or both.
    Although I believe you once also voted for Farage, in some respects Le Pen is now more the French Farage than the French Nick Griffin, with economic policies closer to Labour than the Tories
    For the umpteenth time I never voted for Farage.

    I cast a protest vote to get rid of a failed Prime Minister and to expel Farage from the European Parliament.

    I have never and would never cast a vote to get Farage into Parliament, I voted to get him out of it.
    Smelling salts no longer needed. You voted for Farage. Your excuses are no doubt similar to those people in France who will use similar excuses for reasons to vote Le Pen. There are no excuses that excuse voting for fascists IMO.
    By accusing Farage of being a fascist you degrade your whole argument. But then when it comes to the EU you never had much of an argument anyway.
    It is an area where we disagree Richard, though we agree on many other areas I think. Farage is most definitely a Fascist IMO. You voted for him once I believe so I am sure you are sensitive on the subject because you are clearly not.
    PS. If by "my argument" you mean my position regarding Brexit, then I have been proven 100% correct. It was a complete and utter waste of time. It was pointless and has benefitted but a few. I am not in favour of re-join, so my "argument", old chap, is far more rational than yours, which was built on fairy tales.
    Why aren't you in favour of rejoining? Seems like a good option to me.
    IMO it isn't practical, certainly not in the short to medium term. My main objection to Brexit was that it was pointless and divisive. I think rejoining would certainly be the latter. A better half way house would be to have a strong trading relationship with EU, which might be an EEA type solution if not in name, but in practice. I suspect that maybe one day we will rejoin, but the other 27 will only allow that if there is a clear massive majority in favour. It will take many decades for that to happen.
    You don't seem to have twigged that the EU doesn't do "a solution if not in name, but in practice". If they did, we'd have a resolution on the border in Ireland.
    I don't have any reason to defend the EU. It is a very imperfect organisation, as I mentioned in my previous post. Our own system is also very imperfect. I suspect their view is that Johnson made the fuckup so he will have to fix it. My ability therefore to "twig" what the EU or UK does or doesn't do in the future is as based on guess work as yours, though possibly not as heavily affected by the rose coloured spectacles of the Brexiteer.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,577

    A lovely day walking in the Black Forest. Germany is such a well-functioning, prosperous country, the roads full of cars and trucks from all over Europe carrying people and goods across seamless borders to boost trade and mutual prosperity. Mean-spirited, incompetent Britain, obsessed with securing its borders (an impossible goal in any case) while trade whithers and the country falls even further behind, seems very far away.
    People drive bloody fast on the autobahn though, don't they. 170 was all I could tolerate.

    About a decade ago, Mrs J and I drove down through Germany to attend a wedding on the Austrian border. We stopped on the first night halfway down the country, and Mrs J experienced a large amount of racist abuse from some youths and men outside our motel.

    She has never experienced any gratuitous racial abuse in several decades of living in the UK.

    So perhaps Germany has a few more issues than you think?
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,083
    kamski said:

    Caesar's conquest of Gaul supposedly resulted in a million killed, and a million enslaved, which must have been quite a high proportion of the population at the time. So I guess the Roman empire must go down as one of the most evil in history.

    Worse people to be ruled by, but the process of becoming ruled not a pleasant one.
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 21,298

    A lovely day walking in the Black Forest. Germany is such a well-functioning, prosperous country, the roads full of cars and trucks from all over Europe carrying people and goods across seamless borders to boost trade and mutual prosperity. Mean-spirited, incompetent Britain, obsessed with securing its borders (an impossible goal in any case) while trade whithers and the country falls even further behind, seems very far away.
    People drive bloody fast on the autobahn though, don't they. 170 was all I could tolerate.

    About a decade ago, Mrs J and I drove down through Germany to attend a wedding on the Austrian border. We stopped on the first night halfway down the country, and Mrs J experienced a large amount of racist abuse from some youths and men outside our motel.

    She has never experienced any gratuitous racial abuse in several decades of living in the UK.

    So perhaps Germany has a few more issues than you think?
    Non-sequitur alert.
  • Nigel_ForemainNigel_Foremain Posts: 14,310

    HYUFD said:

    Farooq said:

    HYUFD said:

    kinabalu said:

    @yougov

    Who do Britons want to win the French presidential election?

    All Britons: Macron 37% / Le Pen 19%

    Con voters: Macron 24% / Le Pen 37%
    Lab voters: Macron 53% / Le Pen 8%

    There they are again, that 20%, same people - Trump, Hard Brexit, now LePen. Will also, if asked, be very keen on the idea of decanting refugees to Rwanda. What a horror show. Should be packed off to Rwanda themselves imo.
    Looking at those figures confirms for me why I left the Conservative Party. People who can endorse Le Pen have nothing in common with me. Shows the unfortunate distance and direction the Conservative Party has travelled in its desire to appease and please those who voted for Farage.
    I agree with you completely (you can share the smelling salts).

    Macron is an abject, awful, inappropriate, disaster of a quasi-effective President.

    He's also the only option on the ballot and needs to win. Anyone backing Le Pen is either ignorant or has very unpleasant politics, or both.
    Although I believe you once also voted for Farage, in some respects Le Pen is now more the French Farage than the French Nick Griffin, with economic policies closer to Labour than the Tories
    For the umpteenth time I never voted for Farage.

    I cast a protest vote to get rid of a failed Prime Minister and to expel Farage from the European Parliament.

    I have never and would never cast a vote to get Farage into Parliament, I voted to get him out of it.
    Smelling salts no longer needed. You voted for Farage. Your excuses are no doubt similar to those people in France who will use similar excuses for reasons to vote Le Pen. There are no excuses that excuse voting for fascists IMO.
    By accusing Farage of being a fascist you degrade your whole argument. But then when it comes to the EU you never had much of an argument anyway.
    It is an area where we disagree Richard, though we agree on many other areas I think. Farage is most definitely a Fascist IMO. You voted for him once I believe so I am sure you are sensitive on the subject because you are clearly not.
    PS. If by "my argument" you mean my position regarding Brexit, then I have been proven 100% correct. It was a complete and utter waste of time. It was pointless and has benefitted but a few. I am not in favour of re-join, so my "argument", old chap, is far more rational than yours, which was built on fairy tales.
    Why aren't you in favour of rejoining? Seems like a good option to me.
    IMO it isn't practical, certainly not in the short to medium term. My main objection to Brexit was that it was pointless and divisive. I think rejoining would certainly be the latter. A better half way house would be to have a strong trading relationship with EU, which might be an EEA type solution if not in name, but in practice. I suspect that maybe one day we will rejoin, but the other 27 will only allow that if there is a clear massive majority in favour. It will take many decades for that to happen.
    We won't rejoin the full EU now. That would require the Euro and Schengen. EEA is possible once immigration is under control.

    However it is more likely non Eurozone Sweden, Denmark, Poland and Hungary leave the EU than the UK rejoins it
    Well of course not "now" Sherlock! As for those other countries I assume you know very little about them. The chances of any of them including Hungary following the laughing stock Brexit model is infinitesimally small
    Hungary might get kicked out, although not until things are resolved in Ukraine.
    Unlikely. It is not the way the EU works. There will be a lot of beating of breasts and discussion, but little more.
  • JohnLilburneJohnLilburne Posts: 6,241

    A lovely day walking in the Black Forest. Germany is such a well-functioning, prosperous country, the roads full of cars and trucks from all over Europe carrying people and goods across seamless borders to boost trade and mutual prosperity. Mean-spirited, incompetent Britain, obsessed with securing its borders (an impossible goal in any case) while trade whithers and the country falls even further behind, seems very far away.
    People drive bloody fast on the autobahn though, don't they. 170 was all I could tolerate.

    About a decade ago, Mrs J and I drove down through Germany to attend a wedding on the Austrian border. We stopped on the first night halfway down the country, and Mrs J experienced a large amount of racist abuse from some youths and men outside our motel.

    She has never experienced any gratuitous racial abuse in several decades of living in the UK.

    So perhaps Germany has a few more issues than you think?
    The EU is the mean-spirited one. They could let Brits cross their borders without let or hindrance. They choose not to. We are friends and allies, we just choose not to be a member of their expensive club.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,083

    Leon said:

    Omnium said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Top ten empires judged by might, scale, impact, romance, prowess, victories, astonishingness, pivotality

    1. British
    2. Roman
    3. Ottoman
    4. Mongol
    5. American
    6. Chinese
    7. Portuguese
    8. Spanish
    9. Inca
    10. Persian

    Roman before British, surely.
    That was a close call.

    However the sheer scale of the british empire - the biggest ever - edges it for me. Also the global impact of English and industry, springing therefrom
    A slightly better exit from Empire too, although the jury might still be out on that.
    Is 50 years not enough for you?? Most was gone by 1972....
    Brunei and Belize endured till the '80s. And Hong Kong went in 1997.
    Wasn’t our very first true colony Bermuda? It is mentioned by Shakespeare. And we still have it

    500 years….
    You’d think they’d have earned full incorporation into the UK by now, as France has done with some of its overseas regions.

    The UK.
    England, Scotland, Wales, Northern Ireland…and BERMUDA.
    Sadly have probably missed the boat on that option with a lot of places. Probably shouldn't have said no to Malta.
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 21,298

    HYUFD said:

    Farooq said:

    HYUFD said:

    kinabalu said:

    @yougov

    Who do Britons want to win the French presidential election?

    All Britons: Macron 37% / Le Pen 19%

    Con voters: Macron 24% / Le Pen 37%
    Lab voters: Macron 53% / Le Pen 8%

    There they are again, that 20%, same people - Trump, Hard Brexit, now LePen. Will also, if asked, be very keen on the idea of decanting refugees to Rwanda. What a horror show. Should be packed off to Rwanda themselves imo.
    Looking at those figures confirms for me why I left the Conservative Party. People who can endorse Le Pen have nothing in common with me. Shows the unfortunate distance and direction the Conservative Party has travelled in its desire to appease and please those who voted for Farage.
    I agree with you completely (you can share the smelling salts).

    Macron is an abject, awful, inappropriate, disaster of a quasi-effective President.

    He's also the only option on the ballot and needs to win. Anyone backing Le Pen is either ignorant or has very unpleasant politics, or both.
    Although I believe you once also voted for Farage, in some respects Le Pen is now more the French Farage than the French Nick Griffin, with economic policies closer to Labour than the Tories
    For the umpteenth time I never voted for Farage.

    I cast a protest vote to get rid of a failed Prime Minister and to expel Farage from the European Parliament.

    I have never and would never cast a vote to get Farage into Parliament, I voted to get him out of it.
    Smelling salts no longer needed. You voted for Farage. Your excuses are no doubt similar to those people in France who will use similar excuses for reasons to vote Le Pen. There are no excuses that excuse voting for fascists IMO.
    By accusing Farage of being a fascist you degrade your whole argument. But then when it comes to the EU you never had much of an argument anyway.
    It is an area where we disagree Richard, though we agree on many other areas I think. Farage is most definitely a Fascist IMO. You voted for him once I believe so I am sure you are sensitive on the subject because you are clearly not.
    PS. If by "my argument" you mean my position regarding Brexit, then I have been proven 100% correct. It was a complete and utter waste of time. It was pointless and has benefitted but a few. I am not in favour of re-join, so my "argument", old chap, is far more rational than yours, which was built on fairy tales.
    Why aren't you in favour of rejoining? Seems like a good option to me.
    IMO it isn't practical, certainly not in the short to medium term. My main objection to Brexit was that it was pointless and divisive. I think rejoining would certainly be the latter. A better half way house would be to have a strong trading relationship with EU, which might be an EEA type solution if not in name, but in practice. I suspect that maybe one day we will rejoin, but the other 27 will only allow that if there is a clear massive majority in favour. It will take many decades for that to happen.
    We won't rejoin the full EU now. That would require the Euro and Schengen. EEA is possible once immigration is under control.

    However it is more likely non Eurozone Sweden, Denmark, Poland and Hungary leave the EU than the UK rejoins it
    Well of course not "now" Sherlock! As for those other countries I assume you know very little about them. The chances of any of them including Hungary following the laughing stock Brexit model is infinitesimally small
    Hungary might get kicked out, although not until things are resolved in Ukraine.
    Unlikely. It is not the way the EU works. There will be a lot of beating of breasts and discussion, but little more.
    I said, “might”.
    There’s no precedent for it, but we live in unprecedented times.
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 21,298

    A lovely day walking in the Black Forest. Germany is such a well-functioning, prosperous country, the roads full of cars and trucks from all over Europe carrying people and goods across seamless borders to boost trade and mutual prosperity. Mean-spirited, incompetent Britain, obsessed with securing its borders (an impossible goal in any case) while trade whithers and the country falls even further behind, seems very far away.
    People drive bloody fast on the autobahn though, don't they. 170 was all I could tolerate.

    About a decade ago, Mrs J and I drove down through Germany to attend a wedding on the Austrian border. We stopped on the first night halfway down the country, and Mrs J experienced a large amount of racist abuse from some youths and men outside our motel.

    She has never experienced any gratuitous racial abuse in several decades of living in the UK.

    So perhaps Germany has a few more issues than you think?
    The EU is the mean-spirited one. They could let Brits cross their borders without let or hindrance. They choose not to. We are friends and allies, we just choose not to be a member of their expensive club.
    It’s not us it’s them!
    Honest, miss.
    PS I have a girlfriend but you wouldn’t know her, she goes to another school.
  • darkagedarkage Posts: 5,398
    edited April 2022
    I've been learning about some fascinating stuff in Finland.
    It looks like the Russian military have been buying up land in Finland with the front of being for 'tourism', through oligarchs who have bought EU passports in places like Cyprus.
    What they actually are, is special forces bases. In one egregious example, they submitted very detailed plans to the Finnish authorities for a 530sqm guest villa, and roads around the island they bought, but then actually also built a hidden heliport to military specifications, which they didn't tell anyone about.
    The plan was to send special forces in, in groups of 2-3 in hire cars posing as tourists, and then they do their "operations" from the "holiday village" beyond the border.
    There are 8 battalions on the Finnish Border, many of which spoke Finnish.
    What the Finns did over the years, was just let them do it, and just watch them to get information, and then the various schemes eventually got busted, the helipad example being one.
    The trouble for Russia now, is that the 8 batallions on the Russian Border have all gone to Ukraine, many have died in the process, so they are now effectively non functioning, which diminishes the threat to Finland.
    It is pretty impressive actually, Finland has effectively been in its own cold war with Russia for 80 years.
    There is compulsory national service, for 6 months, for men, (and women if they want to do it). You aren't forced to fight, you can for example work in a care home, as that would still contribute to the war effort.
    If Finland join NATO, it is going to benefit NATO enormously - as it is an army that has actually been alert for all these years, and knows Russia very well, not asleep like some countries.
    From Finlands point of view, they need NATO, for air defence - same fundamental issue as Ukraine.
    Lots of Ukrainian flags in Helsinki yesterday, they were everywhere, effectively replacing Finnish flags.
    Obviously there was some complacency within the civilian population about Russia, lots of businesses catering to Russians etc, and naivety about the threat. This was why there was never sufficient public support to join NATO. Ukraine is a game changer, in that respect.
  • Daveyboy1961Daveyboy1961 Posts: 3,883

    A lovely day walking in the Black Forest. Germany is such a well-functioning, prosperous country, the roads full of cars and trucks from all over Europe carrying people and goods across seamless borders to boost trade and mutual prosperity. Mean-spirited, incompetent Britain, obsessed with securing its borders (an impossible goal in any case) while trade whithers and the country falls even further behind, seems very far away.
    People drive bloody fast on the autobahn though, don't they. 170 was all I could tolerate.

    About a decade ago, Mrs J and I drove down through Germany to attend a wedding on the Austrian border. We stopped on the first night halfway down the country, and Mrs J experienced a large amount of racist abuse from some youths and men outside our motel.

    She has never experienced any gratuitous racial abuse in several decades of living in the UK.

    So perhaps Germany has a few more issues than you think?
    The EU is the mean-spirited one. They could let Brits cross their borders without let or hindrance. They choose not to. We are friends and allies, we just choose not to be a member of their expensive club.
    Like we do?
  • nico679nico679 Posts: 6,275
    edited April 2022
    Latest Ipsos-Sopra Steria poll . Fieldwork 13-15 April.

    Macron 56 (+1)
    Le Pen 44 (-1)

    The Mélenchon vote breaks 28 to 16 for Macron but there is a very high rate of abstentions in that group.

    Other polls have a closer race between 4 and 7 points .
  • I’m gutted. The Little Yellow Train is closed.

    On the slightly brighter side, there is a replacement bus service (that only costs a euro) that means I can continue with the route I’ve (barely!) planned, just without quite the views I was expecting.

    Also, where I am now in Vernet Les Bains is stunning. It’s in the foothills of the Canigou mountain. Rudyard Kipling fell in love with the mountain when staying here 111 years ago. He wrote the short story “Why Snow Falls at Vernet”, which mocks the English for always talking about the weather. And he wrote this letter to the Club Alpin where he describes it as a “magician among mountains”.

    I think I’ll cope with the disappointment somehow! And I’ll definitely be back some day to catch the little train.

    What about Crawling with the Turtles or Hopping with the Toads or whatever critters it is you wish to pester?
    I’ll be tickling the tiny tortoises on my way back to Girona next week.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,175
    ydoethur said:

    Rob Key will be formally appointed as England’s new managing director of men’s cricket next week, replacing Ashley Giles who was sacked from the role after the 4-0 defeat in the Ashes.

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/rob-key-to-become-englands-managing-director-of-mens-cricket-by-next-week-cdj3dk0zl

    That's terrible news, he's a big fan of Jos Buttler.
    He's a big fan of using the words "I'm a big fan".
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,829

    I’m gutted. The Little Yellow Train is closed.

    On the slightly brighter side, there is a replacement bus service (that only costs a euro) that means I can continue with the route I’ve (barely!) planned, just without quite the views I was expecting.

    Also, where I am now in Vernet Les Bains is stunning. It’s in the foothills of the Canigou mountain. Rudyard Kipling fell in love with the mountain when staying here 111 years ago. He wrote the short story “Why Snow Falls at Vernet”, which mocks the English for always talking about the weather. And he wrote this letter to the Club Alpin where he describes it as a “magician among mountains”.

    I think I’ll cope with the disappointment somehow! And I’ll definitely be back some day to catch the little train.

    What about Crawling with the Turtles or Hopping with the Toads or whatever critters it is you wish to pester?
    I’ll be tickling the tiny tortoises on my way back to Girona next week.
    Awwww. Lovely things, tortoises.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,577

    A lovely day walking in the Black Forest. Germany is such a well-functioning, prosperous country, the roads full of cars and trucks from all over Europe carrying people and goods across seamless borders to boost trade and mutual prosperity. Mean-spirited, incompetent Britain, obsessed with securing its borders (an impossible goal in any case) while trade whithers and the country falls even further behind, seems very far away.
    People drive bloody fast on the autobahn though, don't they. 170 was all I could tolerate.

    About a decade ago, Mrs J and I drove down through Germany to attend a wedding on the Austrian border. We stopped on the first night halfway down the country, and Mrs J experienced a large amount of racist abuse from some youths and men outside our motel.

    She has never experienced any gratuitous racial abuse in several decades of living in the UK.

    So perhaps Germany has a few more issues than you think?
    Non-sequitur alert.
    Not really. Just an anecdote that Germany isn't the shining beacon of joy he was making out.

    I can give other evidence, if you like. We could start with their actions over Ukraine?

    (This is not to say that Germany is uniquely bad; just that every country has flaws.)
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,375
    tlg86 said:

    ydoethur said:

    Rob Key will be formally appointed as England’s new managing director of men’s cricket next week, replacing Ashley Giles who was sacked from the role after the 4-0 defeat in the Ashes.

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/rob-key-to-become-englands-managing-director-of-mens-cricket-by-next-week-cdj3dk0zl

    That's terrible news, he's a big fan of Jos Buttler.
    He's a big fan of using the words "I'm a big fan".
    The only thing that should resemble a big fan in cricket is the person managing squad rotation.

    Otherwise, players should be selected, or dropped, on their merits.
  • pingping Posts: 3,805
    edited April 2022
    On asylum seekers / boat people.

    The correct solution is, indeed, as the government has identified - to put the people traffickers out of business.

    They’re going about it in completely the wrong way, though.

    Take the 1.4bn£ (More if necessary) and give it to the secret services and a free hand to break whatever domestic/foreign laws necessary.

    Properly go after these shitheads, wherever they’re based.

    That would actually solve the problem. Which isn’t the aim of the governments current, stupid policy, of course.
  • Nigel_ForemainNigel_Foremain Posts: 14,310
    Farooq said:

    Farooq said:

    HYUFD said:

    kinabalu said:

    @yougov

    Who do Britons want to win the French presidential election?

    All Britons: Macron 37% / Le Pen 19%

    Con voters: Macron 24% / Le Pen 37%
    Lab voters: Macron 53% / Le Pen 8%

    There they are again, that 20%, same people - Trump, Hard Brexit, now LePen. Will also, if asked, be very keen on the idea of decanting refugees to Rwanda. What a horror show. Should be packed off to Rwanda themselves imo.
    Looking at those figures confirms for me why I left the Conservative Party. People who can endorse Le Pen have nothing in common with me. Shows the unfortunate distance and direction the Conservative Party has travelled in its desire to appease and please those who voted for Farage.
    I agree with you completely (you can share the smelling salts).

    Macron is an abject, awful, inappropriate, disaster of a quasi-effective President.

    He's also the only option on the ballot and needs to win. Anyone backing Le Pen is either ignorant or has very unpleasant politics, or both.
    Although I believe you once also voted for Farage, in some respects Le Pen is now more the French Farage than the French Nick Griffin, with economic policies closer to Labour than the Tories
    For the umpteenth time I never voted for Farage.

    I cast a protest vote to get rid of a failed Prime Minister and to expel Farage from the European Parliament.

    I have never and would never cast a vote to get Farage into Parliament, I voted to get him out of it.
    Smelling salts no longer needed. You voted for Farage. Your excuses are no doubt similar to those people in France who will use similar excuses for reasons to vote Le Pen. There are no excuses that excuse voting for fascists IMO.
    By accusing Farage of being a fascist you degrade your whole argument. But then when it comes to the EU you never had much of an argument anyway.
    It is an area where we disagree Richard, though we agree on many other areas I think. Farage is most definitely a Fascist IMO. You voted for him once I believe so I am sure you are sensitive on the subject because you are clearly not.
    PS. If by "my argument" you mean my position regarding Brexit, then I have been proven 100% correct. It was a complete and utter waste of time. It was pointless and has benefitted but a few. I am not in favour of re-join, so my "argument", old chap, is far more rational than yours, which was built on fairy tales.
    Why aren't you in favour of rejoining? Seems like a good option to me.
    IMO it isn't practical, certainly not in the short to medium term. My main objection to Brexit was that it was pointless and divisive. I think rejoining would certainly be the latter. A better half way house would be to have a strong trading relationship with EU, which might be an EEA type solution if not in name, but in practice. I suspect that maybe one day we will rejoin, but the other 27 will only allow that if there is a clear massive majority in favour. It will take many decades for that to happen.
    I'm going to give you some unsolicited advice. Take it or leave it.
    Don't focus on what other people want. Implicit in your post there is that you feel an obstacle to rejoining is lack of current support for it. Well you aren't wrong about that, but that shouldn't affect your opinion. Even if only 1 in 1000 agreed with me about something I would still hold true to my opinion.
    Obviously there's a practical element here, and I don't waste any time talking about rejoin, but if it comes up in conversation hell yeah, why not. Sign me up today. Do I think it's going to happen soon? No. But don't let the perceived unpopularity of an opinion prevent you from even having it.
    Thanks for the unsolicited advice. As a humble chap I am never too proud to ignore it. My post was an opinion based on pragmatism. Most of my political view is right-centrist and pragmatic. Change for the sake of change is pointless. One of the strengths of the British (relative) democracy is the fact that it has evolved through the application of pragmatism . Show me one ordinary person who has benefitted in their every day life from Brexit. You will struggle. The same will apply to Scottish "independence". A few will benefit, but they are mainly the people that tried to convince others the change was essential or desirable when in truth they knew it was pointless.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,083
    ydoethur said:

    tlg86 said:

    ydoethur said:

    Rob Key will be formally appointed as England’s new managing director of men’s cricket next week, replacing Ashley Giles who was sacked from the role after the 4-0 defeat in the Ashes.

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/rob-key-to-become-englands-managing-director-of-mens-cricket-by-next-week-cdj3dk0zl

    That's terrible news, he's a big fan of Jos Buttler.
    He's a big fan of using the words "I'm a big fan".
    The only thing that should resemble a big fan in cricket is the person managing squad rotation.

    Otherwise, players should be selected, or dropped, on their merits.
    Nonsense, it should be like our leaders - based on what school they went to.
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,523



    We can't exclude the possibility that Johnson and Patel don't fully understand the deal they have signed up for, and they're set to get rather less for their money than they think.

    What is Britain going to do if/when we exhaust Rwandan capacity?

    That'll be in no time - the Rwandan interviewee IIRC talked in terms of some hundreds, up to a couple of thousand over 5 years, though she was a bit vaguer on that point. That's what makes it principally a PR thing.
  • SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 17,559
    Breaking - Seattle Times ($) - President Biden to visit Seattle next Friday [April 22]

    President Joe Biden will travel to Seattle next Friday in his first visit as president, according to the White House.

    While details have yet to be announced, the visit will center on the administration’s efforts “to continue bringing down costs for American families and building a more resilient economy,” according to the White House.

    The visit comes amid sagging national approval numbers for the president, and growing worries among Democrats that inflation will cost the party control of Congress in the 2022 midterm elections.

    Biden has blamed the inflation spike on Russia’s invasion of Ukraine.

    Biden last visited Seattle in November 2019 while campaigning in the Democratic presidential primaries. He attended a fundraiser at the home of Amazon executive David Zapolsky.

    Additional details were expected to be released about the visit in the coming days.
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 21,298

    A lovely day walking in the Black Forest. Germany is such a well-functioning, prosperous country, the roads full of cars and trucks from all over Europe carrying people and goods across seamless borders to boost trade and mutual prosperity. Mean-spirited, incompetent Britain, obsessed with securing its borders (an impossible goal in any case) while trade whithers and the country falls even further behind, seems very far away.
    People drive bloody fast on the autobahn though, don't they. 170 was all I could tolerate.

    About a decade ago, Mrs J and I drove down through Germany to attend a wedding on the Austrian border. We stopped on the first night halfway down the country, and Mrs J experienced a large amount of racist abuse from some youths and men outside our motel.

    She has never experienced any gratuitous racial abuse in several decades of living in the UK.

    So perhaps Germany has a few more issues than you think?
    Non-sequitur alert.
    Not really. Just an anecdote that Germany isn't the shining beacon of joy he was making out.

    I can give other evidence, if you like. We could start with their actions over Ukraine?

    (This is not to say that Germany is uniquely bad; just that every country has flaws.)
    You’d have an argument if he’d said Germany was perfect, which he didn’t.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,829
    edited April 2022



    We can't exclude the possibility that Johnson and Patel don't fully understand the deal they have signed up for, and they're set to get rather less for their money than they think.

    What is Britain going to do if/when we exhaust Rwandan capacity?

    That'll be in no time - the Rwandan interviewee IIRC talked in terms of some hundreds, up to a couple of thousand over 5 years, though she was a bit vaguer on that point. That's what makes it principally a PR thing.
    How odd. That i story I linked to was talkingf about 30K a year.

    One would almost think HMG don't expect it to work and will blame everyone else from Ben Wallace and SKS downward.
  • mwadamsmwadams Posts: 3,590

    A lovely day walking in the Black Forest. Germany is such a well-functioning, prosperous country, the roads full of cars and trucks from all over Europe carrying people and goods across seamless borders to boost trade and mutual prosperity. Mean-spirited, incompetent Britain, obsessed with securing its borders (an impossible goal in any case) while trade whithers and the country falls even further behind, seems very far away.
    People drive bloody fast on the autobahn though, don't they. 170 was all I could tolerate.

    About a decade ago, Mrs J and I drove down through Germany to attend a wedding on the Austrian border. We stopped on the first night halfway down the country, and Mrs J experienced a large amount of racist abuse from some youths and men outside our motel.

    She has never experienced any gratuitous racial abuse in several decades of living in the UK.

    So perhaps Germany has a few more issues than you think?
    The EU is the mean-spirited one. They could let Brits cross their borders without let or hindrance. They choose not to. We are friends and allies, we just choose not to be a member of their expensive club.
    But... We had that. Then we left the club (it was as you say expensive.) And now we don't. The deal Boris did, didn't include that, so here we are. We left. We didn't negotiate free movement (in fact, I seem to remember that was a thing we specifically didn't want.).
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 15,779

    A lovely day walking in the Black Forest. Germany is such a well-functioning, prosperous country, the roads full of cars and trucks from all over Europe carrying people and goods across seamless borders to boost trade and mutual prosperity. Mean-spirited, incompetent Britain, obsessed with securing its borders (an impossible goal in any case) while trade whithers and the country falls even further behind, seems very far away.
    People drive bloody fast on the autobahn though, don't they. 170 was all I could tolerate.

    About a decade ago, Mrs J and I drove down through Germany to attend a wedding on the Austrian border. We stopped on the first night halfway down the country, and Mrs J experienced a large amount of racist abuse from some youths and men outside our motel.

    She has never experienced any gratuitous racial abuse in several decades of living in the UK.

    So perhaps Germany has a few more issues than you think?
    No problems for us, everyone very friendly.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,561

    Farooq said:

    HYUFD said:

    kinabalu said:

    @yougov

    Who do Britons want to win the French presidential election?

    All Britons: Macron 37% / Le Pen 19%

    Con voters: Macron 24% / Le Pen 37%
    Lab voters: Macron 53% / Le Pen 8%

    There they are again, that 20%, same people - Trump, Hard Brexit, now LePen. Will also, if asked, be very keen on the idea of decanting refugees to Rwanda. What a horror show. Should be packed off to Rwanda themselves imo.
    Looking at those figures confirms for me why I left the Conservative Party. People who can endorse Le Pen have nothing in common with me. Shows the unfortunate distance and direction the Conservative Party has travelled in its desire to appease and please those who voted for Farage.
    I agree with you completely (you can share the smelling salts).

    Macron is an abject, awful, inappropriate, disaster of a quasi-effective President.

    He's also the only option on the ballot and needs to win. Anyone backing Le Pen is either ignorant or has very unpleasant politics, or both.
    Although I believe you once also voted for Farage, in some respects Le Pen is now more the French Farage than the French Nick Griffin, with economic policies closer to Labour than the Tories
    For the umpteenth time I never voted for Farage.

    I cast a protest vote to get rid of a failed Prime Minister and to expel Farage from the European Parliament.

    I have never and would never cast a vote to get Farage into Parliament, I voted to get him out of it.
    Smelling salts no longer needed. You voted for Farage. Your excuses are no doubt similar to those people in France who will use similar excuses for reasons to vote Le Pen. There are no excuses that excuse voting for fascists IMO.
    By accusing Farage of being a fascist you degrade your whole argument. But then when it comes to the EU you never had much of an argument anyway.
    It is an area where we disagree Richard, though we agree on many other areas I think. Farage is most definitely a Fascist IMO. You voted for him once I believe so I am sure you are sensitive on the subject because you are clearly not.
    PS. If by "my argument" you mean my position regarding Brexit, then I have been proven 100% correct. It was a complete and utter waste of time. It was pointless and has benefitted but a few. I am not in favour of re-join, so my "argument", old chap, is far more rational than yours, which was built on fairy tales.
    Why aren't you in favour of rejoining? Seems like a good option to me.
    IMO it isn't practical, certainly not in the short to medium term. My main objection to Brexit was that it was pointless and divisive. I think rejoining would certainly be the latter. A better half way house would be to have a strong trading relationship with EU, which might be an EEA type solution if not in name, but in practice. I suspect that maybe one day we will rejoin, but the other 27 will only allow that if there is a clear massive majority in favour. It will take many decades for that to happen.
    You don't seem to have twigged that the EU doesn't do "a solution if not in name, but in practice". If they did, we'd have a resolution on the border in Ireland.
    Possibly true.

    But also true that British policy has consisted of badmouthing and serial gaslighting, which has hardly built confidence in such solutions.

    All cheered on by people like yourself.
    Whatever....
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,829
    This thread has had a one-way trip to Rwanda.
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,523
    edited April 2022
    ohnotnow said:


    Haaretz (an Israeli paper that I get summaries from) says the Israeli experiment with Rwanda on similar terms collapsed, because in practice the Rwandans were not willing to provide asylum, so the migrants struggled along on the initial grant until the money ran out, and then had to depend on friends, sleep on the street or try to find their way back by illegal means. They didn't really blame the Rwandans - they did not allege any corruption or hostility - but the flaw seems to have been partly that Rwandan asylum isn't any easier to get than Israeli (or British?) asylum, and partly that no long-term plan existed, so Israel was essentially dumping ineligible applicants on Rwanda, with enough money to survive for a couple of years, after which they were nobody's problem. Israel has now ended the arrangement as it became increasingly seen as short-sighted and unfair.

    That's really interesting. I didn't even know that Israel had tried the same thing. Something to read up on, thanks!
    This is the Haaretz article about how the Israeli scheme was set up - it sounds very similar.

    https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/israel-to-pay-rwanda-5-000-for-every-asylum-seeker-deported-there-1.5466805

    This is an article about how it went wrong:

    https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/asylum-seekers-who-left-israel-for-rwanda-warn-those-remaining-don-t-1.5785996
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,625
    edited April 2022
    ...
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,083
    edited April 2022
    Farooq said:

    kle4 said:

    kamski said:

    Caesar's conquest of Gaul supposedly resulted in a million killed, and a million enslaved, which must have been quite a high proportion of the population at the time. So I guess the Roman empire must go down as one of the most evil in history.

    Worse people to be ruled by, but the process of becoming ruled not a pleasant one.
    Being ruled by Rome was bad. Like all empires, Rome was an extractive system leading to poverty for the subjected peoples.

    "An unpublished survey of 1,867 skeletons from sixty-one sites in Britain likewise documents an increase in body height after the end of Roman rule. These findings reinforce the general impression conveyed by a more eclectic long-term survey of stature in different parts of Europe that identifies troughs during the Roman period and the High Middle Ages and peaks in the post Roman period and in the wake of the Black Death."

    What we can learn from evidence like this is that in times of high inequality, which is what happens when extractive regimes hold hegemonic power, the average citizen suffers. Empires is an extremely bad system of government for normal people, and the continued sense of nostalgia and romance around them is a function of the narrative focus on the elites, who, of course, benefit hugely from such a system of government.
    I didn't say it was good to be ruled by them. I hate the expression, but you've clearly been triggered for some reason into seeing more there than I wrote. I said there were worse people to be ruled by, that doesn't mean it was good or nice.
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 15,779

    A lovely day walking in the Black Forest. Germany is such a well-functioning, prosperous country, the roads full of cars and trucks from all over Europe carrying people and goods across seamless borders to boost trade and mutual prosperity. Mean-spirited, incompetent Britain, obsessed with securing its borders (an impossible goal in any case) while trade whithers and the country falls even further behind, seems very far away.
    People drive bloody fast on the autobahn though, don't they. 170 was all I could tolerate.

    About a decade ago, Mrs J and I drove down through Germany to attend a wedding on the Austrian border. We stopped on the first night halfway down the country, and Mrs J experienced a large amount of racist abuse from some youths and men outside our motel.

    She has never experienced any gratuitous racial abuse in several decades of living in the UK.

    So perhaps Germany has a few more issues than you think?
    Non-sequitur alert.
    Not really. Just an anecdote that Germany isn't the shining beacon of joy he was making out.

    I can give other evidence, if you like. We could start with their actions over Ukraine?

    (This is not to say that Germany is uniquely bad; just that every country has flaws.)
    All the shops being closed here today isn't great, especially as our self catering place was a bit stingy with the toilet roll supply. However, a nice man in the local petrol station gave me a roll for free, which was nice.
    Also, Germany has almost 10 times as many refugees as the UK and hasn't proposed deporting them to genocide hotspots in Africa as far as I know.
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 15,779

    A lovely day walking in the Black Forest. Germany is such a well-functioning, prosperous country, the roads full of cars and trucks from all over Europe carrying people and goods across seamless borders to boost trade and mutual prosperity. Mean-spirited, incompetent Britain, obsessed with securing its borders (an impossible goal in any case) while trade whithers and the country falls even further behind, seems very far away.
    People drive bloody fast on the autobahn though, don't they. 170 was all I could tolerate.

    About a decade ago, Mrs J and I drove down through Germany to attend a wedding on the Austrian border. We stopped on the first night halfway down the country, and Mrs J experienced a large amount of racist abuse from some youths and men outside our motel.

    She has never experienced any gratuitous racial abuse in several decades of living in the UK.

    So perhaps Germany has a few more issues than you think?
    The EU is the mean-spirited one. They could let Brits cross their borders without let or hindrance. They choose not to. We are friends and allies, we just choose not to be a member of their expensive club.
    Yes if only they granted us rights that we have refused to grant them, like good chaps, what. Don't they know who we are?
  • carnforthcarnforth Posts: 4,586

    A lovely day walking in the Black Forest. Germany is such a well-functioning, prosperous country, the roads full of cars and trucks from all over Europe carrying people and goods across seamless borders to boost trade and mutual prosperity. Mean-spirited, incompetent Britain, obsessed with securing its borders (an impossible goal in any case) while trade whithers and the country falls even further behind, seems very far away.
    People drive bloody fast on the autobahn though, don't they. 170 was all I could tolerate.

    About a decade ago, Mrs J and I drove down through Germany to attend a wedding on the Austrian border. We stopped on the first night halfway down the country, and Mrs J experienced a large amount of racist abuse from some youths and men outside our motel.

    She has never experienced any gratuitous racial abuse in several decades of living in the UK.

    So perhaps Germany has a few more issues than you think?
    Non-sequitur alert.
    Not really. Just an anecdote that Germany isn't the shining beacon of joy he was making out.

    I can give other evidence, if you like. We could start with their actions over Ukraine?

    (This is not to say that Germany is uniquely bad; just that every country has flaws.)
    I was just thinking earlier today that the Britain-is-awful-Germany-is-perfect crowd on social media had gone rather quiet in the past few weeks. Perhaps I thought too soon.

    I preferred the Britain-is-awful-Sweden-is-perfect period of the early 2000s. Halcyon days.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,577

    A lovely day walking in the Black Forest. Germany is such a well-functioning, prosperous country, the roads full of cars and trucks from all over Europe carrying people and goods across seamless borders to boost trade and mutual prosperity. Mean-spirited, incompetent Britain, obsessed with securing its borders (an impossible goal in any case) while trade whithers and the country falls even further behind, seems very far away.
    People drive bloody fast on the autobahn though, don't they. 170 was all I could tolerate.

    About a decade ago, Mrs J and I drove down through Germany to attend a wedding on the Austrian border. We stopped on the first night halfway down the country, and Mrs J experienced a large amount of racist abuse from some youths and men outside our motel.

    She has never experienced any gratuitous racial abuse in several decades of living in the UK.

    So perhaps Germany has a few more issues than you think?
    No problems for us, everyone very friendly.
    Well, bully for you. That obviously negates the experience we had. Not.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,577

    A lovely day walking in the Black Forest. Germany is such a well-functioning, prosperous country, the roads full of cars and trucks from all over Europe carrying people and goods across seamless borders to boost trade and mutual prosperity. Mean-spirited, incompetent Britain, obsessed with securing its borders (an impossible goal in any case) while trade whithers and the country falls even further behind, seems very far away.
    People drive bloody fast on the autobahn though, don't they. 170 was all I could tolerate.

    About a decade ago, Mrs J and I drove down through Germany to attend a wedding on the Austrian border. We stopped on the first night halfway down the country, and Mrs J experienced a large amount of racist abuse from some youths and men outside our motel.

    She has never experienced any gratuitous racial abuse in several decades of living in the UK.

    So perhaps Germany has a few more issues than you think?
    Non-sequitur alert.
    Not really. Just an anecdote that Germany isn't the shining beacon of joy he was making out.

    I can give other evidence, if you like. We could start with their actions over Ukraine?

    (This is not to say that Germany is uniquely bad; just that every country has flaws.)
    You’d have an argument if he’d said Germany was perfect, which he didn’t.
    You cannot see the generalisations he was making in his post?
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 28,421
    ydoethur said:

    Nigelb said:

    (FPT)The Russian reaction to the sinking is extraordinary - “the special military operation is over; this means war…”
    https://mobile.twitter.com/JuliaDavisNews/status/1514766062771875851

    The logic there is almost too fncked up to comprehend, but it does strongly suggest that the Russian public have no idea of the scale of their losses to date if this incident is such a trigger. The desperate anger is palpable.

    Harder to hide the loss of a ship, especially such a famous one, than the loss of a unit. Unless you are running a Pals Battalion system you can tell each casualty!s family that they were one of the unlucky few.
    It's rather difficult to see how Putin can remain after cocking this up so royally.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,577

    A lovely day walking in the Black Forest. Germany is such a well-functioning, prosperous country, the roads full of cars and trucks from all over Europe carrying people and goods across seamless borders to boost trade and mutual prosperity. Mean-spirited, incompetent Britain, obsessed with securing its borders (an impossible goal in any case) while trade whithers and the country falls even further behind, seems very far away.
    People drive bloody fast on the autobahn though, don't they. 170 was all I could tolerate.

    About a decade ago, Mrs J and I drove down through Germany to attend a wedding on the Austrian border. We stopped on the first night halfway down the country, and Mrs J experienced a large amount of racist abuse from some youths and men outside our motel.

    She has never experienced any gratuitous racial abuse in several decades of living in the UK.

    So perhaps Germany has a few more issues than you think?
    Non-sequitur alert.
    Not really. Just an anecdote that Germany isn't the shining beacon of joy he was making out.

    I can give other evidence, if you like. We could start with their actions over Ukraine?

    (This is not to say that Germany is uniquely bad; just that every country has flaws.)
    All the shops being closed here today isn't great, especially as our self catering place was a bit stingy with the toilet roll supply. However, a nice man in the local petrol station gave me a roll for free, which was nice.
    Also, Germany has almost 10 times as many refugees as the UK and hasn't proposed deporting them to genocide hotspots in Africa as far as I know.
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-33700624
    https://www.dw.com/en/five-years-on-how-germanys-refugee-policy-has-fared/a-54660166
    https://www.france24.com/en/20180928-focus-germany-turkish-community-immigration-far-right-racism-tensions

    And many more.

    (BTW, aside from that incident, we loved our time in Germany. It was a bit of a rude introduction though.)
  • Jim_MillerJim_Miller Posts: 2,998
    Carnyx said: "You forgot some of the First Nations lands, with beads, blankets, and bullshit lies."

    No, I didn't. But I recognize that the interactions with hundreds of tribes, over hundreds of years, can not be summarized briefly. Three examples, which you are unlikely to find in, for example, the Guardian:

    When William Penn established a settlement in what is now Pennsylvania, he bought a stretch of land along the Delaware River from the Lenape, with an option for more. When it came time for the option -- as far as a man could walk in a day -- to be exercised, he took a leisurely stroll, and then stopped in the middle of the afternoon.

    Second, after the Mexican-American War ended, the Hopi immediately contacted the American government asking whether they would be protected against the Navajo and the Apache. (They were, which is why there are still Hopi, today.) The tribes are not friends, by the way, so much so that some years ago the Hopis asked to be in a different congressional district from the Navajo. (The re-districters obliged, and, for a while, Arizona 2nd had a small square on its eastern end (the Hopi reservation) and a long skinny stem attaching it to the bulk of the district in northwestern Arizona.)

    Third, after the purchase of Alaska, the United States banned slavery there, which was common among the coastal tribes, just as the American army had ended it earlier in the Puget Sound area.

    (The Lenape were probably hoping to get some protection from other tribes, as the Hopi certainly were.)
  • boulayboulay Posts: 5,486

    Carnyx said: "You forgot some of the First Nations lands, with beads, blankets, and bullshit lies."

    No, I didn't. But I recognize that the interactions with hundreds of tribes, over hundreds of years, can not be summarized briefly. Three examples, which you are unlikely to find in, for example, the Guardian:

    When William Penn established a settlement in what is now Pennsylvania, he bought a stretch of land along the Delaware River from the Lenape, with an option for more. When it came time for the option -- as far as a man could walk in a day -- to be exercised, he took a leisurely stroll, and then stopped in the middle of the afternoon.

    Second, after the Mexican-American War ended, the Hopi immediately contacted the American government asking whether they would be protected against the Navajo and the Apache. (They were, which is why there are still Hopi, today.) The tribes are not friends, by the way, so much so that some years ago the Hopis asked to be in a different congressional district from the Navajo. (The re-districters obliged, and, for a while, Arizona 2nd had a small square on its eastern end (the Hopi reservation) and a long skinny stem attaching it to the bulk of the district in northwestern Arizona.)

    Third, after the purchase of Alaska, the United States banned slavery there, which was common among the coastal tribes, just as the American army had ended it earlier in the Puget Sound area.

    (The Lenape were probably hoping to get some protection from other tribes, as the Hopi certainly were.)

    Hence the old Apache proverb: it’s the Hopi that kills you.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,375
    This thread has

    launched missiles against a cruiser, which purely coincidentally later caught fire and sunk due to the stupidity of its crew.

  • CookieCookie Posts: 13,792
    Wife and I have just come back from our first night away without kids since my 7-year old was born. A night away in the Peak District, for no particular reason. Lovely. Actually, arguably it was for our tenth wedding anniversary, three years late, having been postponed by first the need to disimpact my youngest daughter's colon and then by covid. Anyway, a super little break. The hotel was just setting up for a wedding as we were preparing to leave, and we briefly met the groom. Delightful that even among the tumult of the early 2020s here are young people with reason to look to the future with excitement.
    A morning in Bakewell mooching amiably about before returning home, joining apparently the entire population of the East Midlands in a delirious quest to spend money on unnecessary things.

    Arrived back at the grandparents where the kids were staying; 7-year-old enthusiastically greets her mother thus: "Are you pregnant?". Sadly the list of reasons that the answer to that question is "no" is long and lamentable but can largely be summed up by being 47 and knackered.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,577
    Cookie said:

    Wife and I have just come back from our first night away without kids since my 7-year old was born. A night away in the Peak District, for no particular reason. Lovely. Actually, arguably it was for our tenth wedding anniversary, three years late, having been postponed by first the need to disimpact my youngest daughter's colon and then by covid. Anyway, a super little break. The hotel was just setting up for a wedding as we were preparing to leave, and we briefly met the groom. Delightful that even among the tumult of the early 2020s here are young people with reason to look to the future with excitement.
    A morning in Bakewell mooching amiably about before returning home, joining apparently the entire population of the East Midlands in a delirious quest to spend money on unnecessary things.

    Arrived back at the grandparents where the kids were staying; 7-year-old enthusiastically greets her mother thus: "Are you pregnant?". Sadly the list of reasons that the answer to that question is "no" is long and lamentable but can largely be summed up by being 47 and knackered.

    :)

    May I ask where you stayed?

    I find Bakewell a bit 'meh'. If you go to the Peak District, you want countryside, not a town. I feel the same way about Buxton and Matlock (although both of those are just outside). Then again, I spent far too long in all those places in my youth, so am probably a little jaded.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 23,148
    edited April 2022
    .

    IanB2 said:

    We just passed a woman taking her cat for a walk on a lead. Only in France…

    You've never been to Manchester?

    When I thought today couldn't get any stranger, man walking his ferret in Manchester station



    https://twitter.com/bbclaurak/status/915632013637496832
    Some years ago, there was an elderly lady who lived in the Park Lane area, who took a very miniature horse for walks in Hyde Park. It was literally 2 foot tall. Looked exactly like a horse - not a miniature pony or something.

    I saw it fairly close up - she’d ever had miniature horse tac made up, so it was on a lead rein.
    There used to be a lady who would walk her pet ocelot in Hyde Park. Probably illegal nowadays because of the rules on keeping exotic pets, but I'm told it looked happy enough.
    The miniature horse I saw seemed happy - shiny coat, head up and interested in the world around it.
    Who was riding it?
  • MattWMattW Posts: 23,148
    Carnyx said:

    Omnium said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Top ten empires judged by might, scale, impact, romance, prowess, victories, astonishingness, pivotality

    1. British
    2. Roman
    3. Ottoman
    4. Mongol
    5. American
    6. Chinese
    7. Portuguese
    8. Spanish
    9. Inca
    10. Persian

    Roman before British, surely.
    That was a close call.

    However the sheer scale of the british empire - the biggest ever - edges it for me. Also the global impact of English and industry, springing therefrom
    A slightly better exit from Empire too, although the jury might still be out on that.
    Is 50 years not enough for you?? Most was gone by 1972....
    Brunei and Belize endured till the '80s. And Hong Kong went in 1997.
    Falklands, Gib, ... the former still has an Imperial Satrap aka Governor.

    Edit: And they still hand out Imperial orders like smarties in London.
    Don't they all?

    Oz and Canada both have Governor-Generals. I'm not sure if the have ostrich feathers and run the army, however.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 23,148

    A lovely day walking in the Black Forest. Germany is such a well-functioning, prosperous country, the roads full of cars and trucks from all over Europe carrying people and goods across seamless borders to boost trade and mutual prosperity. Mean-spirited, incompetent Britain, obsessed with securing its borders (an impossible goal in any case) while trade whithers and the country falls even further behind, seems very far away.
    People drive bloody fast on the autobahn though, don't they. 170 was all I could tolerate.

    About a decade ago, Mrs J and I drove down through Germany to attend a wedding on the Austrian border. We stopped on the first night halfway down the country, and Mrs J experienced a large amount of racist abuse from some youths and men outside our motel.

    She has never experienced any gratuitous racial abuse in several decades of living in the UK.

    So perhaps Germany has a few more issues than you think?
    Non-sequitur alert.
    Not really. Just an anecdote that Germany isn't the shining beacon of joy he was making out.

    I can give other evidence, if you like. We could start with their actions over Ukraine?

    (This is not to say that Germany is uniquely bad; just that every country has flaws.)
    All the shops being closed here today isn't great, especially as our self catering place was a bit stingy with the toilet roll supply. However, a nice man in the local petrol station gave me a roll for free, which was nice.
    Also, Germany has almost 10 times as many refugees as the UK and hasn't proposed deporting them to genocide hotspots in Africa as far as I know.
    TBH that's a nasty comment wrt Rwanda. Beneath any of us. They have made a hell of a lot of progress.

    The Rwanda genocide is as far behind them now, as Mrs Thatcher being PM was from Post-WW2 Rationing.
This discussion has been closed.