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Worrying by-election pointers for Tories ahead of May 5th – politicalbetting.com

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  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 21,298
    Disgracefully, nobody has mentioned the NZ Empire which commenced formally in 1901 with control of Niue and the Cook Islands and, with various comings and goings, continues to this day.

    The island of Tokelau (population 1500) is currently administrated by Ross Ardern, who happens to be Jacinda’s father.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,577
    carnforth said:
    That's fascinating, thanks. Labour not doing as well as I expected, and the Lib Dems better.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,277
    Farooq said:

    Leon said:

    Farooq said:

    Leon said:

    Top ten empires judged by might, scale, impact, romance, prowess, victories, astonishingness, pivotality

    1. British
    2. Roman
    3. Ottoman
    4. Mongol
    5. American
    6. Chinese
    7. Portuguese
    8. Spanish
    9. Inca
    10. Persian

    Roman before British, surely.
    It is all purely subjective. But wasn't the British empire the first to span the entire globe (the second being the American economic empire, and the third may be the Chinese economic empire)? In addition, the British empire was a vast area ruled by a tiny country, and when the empire ended, it did so mostly through agreements rather than conquests. And the effects of the British Empire are still felt around the world, culturally and politically.

    Against that, the British empire lasted only about two centuries (a few decades at peak), whilst the Roman empire lasted ?over double? the length. And the Roman Empire was long enough ago that we can think of it as being 'cool' without being too bothered about the hideousness at its heart.

    I'd also probably put the Ottoman Empire above the Roman, for the area ruled, its effects, and how long it lasted.

    But as I say, it's all subjective.
    I think you need to look at the extent of the French Empire in the early nineteenth century. From Indonesia to the Americas, it was truly global and possibly a touch earlier than Britain's?
    If it was that good we’d all be speaking French. We don’t. Even where it colonised they’ve abandoned much of the culture - see Indochina

    I’d have it in the top 20. Above the Aztec behind the Assyrian
    I was only saying it was global in scale.
    Clearly globality (yeah, that's a word now) was a possibility unlocked by technology because it happened all at once with several different empires of European origin.

    I know you're mostly trying to provoke in this whole thread, but it doe seem you're a bit confused. You emphasis scale here, but minimise it there. You're mainly trying to objectify your subjective feelings.
    I was just trying to stop you all being dull. You in particular. Because you can be quite engaging

    That said, my list actually took some thought. Scale is absolutely vital for judging empire, empires are all about conquest. I’d put cultural impact next and nearly as important

    The british empire was the biggest ever and the global hegemony of the English language gives it - to my mind - the most cultural impact (with Rome either equal or a close second)

    So britain’s primacy is justified. The French empire had scale but so did Spain Portugal China etc etc, and France had much less cultural impact (outside Africa)

    Anyway now I must continue my hike over the unfairly maligned Chilterns. I am drowning in the song of skylarks. Wonderful
  • pingping Posts: 3,805
    carnforth said:
    Interesting Con>Green shift
  • OmniumOmnium Posts: 10,759
    Leon said:

    Omnium said:

    Leon said:

    Omnium said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Top ten empires judged by might, scale, impact, romance, prowess, victories, astonishingness, pivotality

    1. British
    2. Roman
    3. Ottoman
    4. Mongol
    5. American
    6. Chinese
    7. Portuguese
    8. Spanish
    9. Inca
    10. Persian

    Mongol empire above the Spanish.... hmm I disagree. What did the Mongols really achieve?
    2nd biggest ever - behind only the British - and transformed China. Is my thinking
    The Macedonions and the Egyptians definitely are above the Incas. I'd suggest above the Portugese and the Mongols too.
    I was feeling a bit “Woke” - so I put the Incas in. Take them out again?

    There is an argument for the Nazi empire being in the top ten in terms of the satanic and hypnotic grip it has had on us, ever since - and also its politico-cultural impact - see Ukraine now

    An absolutely evil empire, of course, but evil empires can still impress
    The Nazi Empire was very temporary.

    The Inca were rolled over by a few Spaniards. However they were a locally fantastic cultural and societal peak, whereas the Mongols clearly weren't.

    Your list, your choices.
    Yeah I wouldn’t go MAD and put the Nazis in the top five or anything. That would be morally wrong.

    But number 7 or 8? Arguable
    Not unless you want to include the French too - and they'd have to be much higher up. Napoleon really did have an Empire.

    I wonder too about America in the list. They are I think second in terms of global power projection ever, but they're far from imperialist - although much more so than they claim - for example the Phillipines War.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,134
    Farooq said:

    Leon said:

    Omnium said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Top ten empires judged by might, scale, impact, romance, prowess, victories, astonishingness, pivotality

    1. British
    2. Roman
    3. Ottoman
    4. Mongol
    5. American
    6. Chinese
    7. Portuguese
    8. Spanish
    9. Inca
    10. Persian

    Mongol empire above the Spanish.... hmm I disagree. What did the Mongols really achieve?
    2nd biggest ever - behind only the British - and transformed China. Is my thinking
    The Macedonions and the Egyptians definitely are above the Incas. I'd suggest above the Portugese and the Mongols too.
    I was feeling a bit “Woke” - so I put the Incas in. Take them out again?

    There is an argument for the Nazi empire being in the top ten in terms of the satanic and hypnotic grip it has had on us, ever since - and also its politico-cultural impact - see Ukraine now

    An absolutely evil empire, of course, but evil empires can still impress
    Just more evil, really. Empires are inherently bad.
    Cept ours. Ours was complex in its moral underpinnings, its motivations, its prosecution, its legacy. An undertaking of light and shade, with consequences too nuanced to be condemned out of hand.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,134

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    ydoethur said:

    HYUFD said:

    ydoethur said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "Tories set to lose 800 council seats – and Sir Keir Starmer on course to be PM in 2024
    Pollsters Electoral Calculus and Find Out Now forecast five per cent swing from Tories to Labour at local elections"

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2022/04/14/exclusive-tories-set-lose-800-council-seats-sir-keir-starmer/

    Isn't there a chance that the PM could lose his seat in an GE on figures like that? Have there been any whispers about him moving to a safer one?
    It's another reason for Boris to depart next year. Losing an 80 seat majority to dreadfully dreary Starmer would be bad enough. Losing his seat too, in a Portillo moment of national rejoicing, would haunt him for decades....
    No British Prime Minister has ever lost his seat at a General Election. Not one. The closest anyone has come are Balfour in 1906 and Macdonald in 1935, who had both been PM a few months before (one for Balfour, six for MacDonald).

    For Johnson to lose his seat a la John Howard would be an epochal humiliation that would far dwarf any Portillo moment.
    That is more a factor of how safe their seat is. Major's Huntingdon had a massive majority in 1992 for example but he won a smaller majority than Boris did in 2019 but with Boris' Uxbridge seat having a smaller majority.

    As for John Howard he also won 4 general elections before he lost his seat and the election in 2007 and is still the second longest serving Australian PM since WW2
    I didn't know Major stood in Huntingdon in 2019.

    To an extent you're right about the safeness of the seats, and that's partly because promising politicians in marginal seats are usually transferred to safer ones so they don't get booted from the House of Commons, which until Johnson made his name as London mayor was the only way of gaining executive power. And, of course, around half of British Prime Ministers have been peers, which skews the figures.

    But it would still be a calamitous result for Johnson, especially as he claims to be the man who wins every vote he contests.
    Didn't Johnson lose one of his Oxford student contest. And the first time he stood for Parliament, in N Wales.
    Johnson won the Presidency of the Oxford Union as the SDP backed candidate in the Thatcher years
    I thought that was the second time that he tried. Does anyone know; I confess I can't be bothered to wade through his Wikipedia entry.
    2 accounts here one from Toby Young.

    Boris lost on his first attempt when he was the High Tory candidate to a state educated candidate who went on to be an adviser to Nick Clegg.

    However he won on his second attempt, this time with the backing of the largely SDP Limehouse group against the Australian son of a multi millionaire


    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/jul/15/oxford-union-president-boris-johnson-neil-sherlock

    https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/boris-johnson-s-art-of-war
    Oxford Union elections perhaps best understood as right vs right affairs.
    Wrong v Wrong is more the mark?
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,277
    Farooq said:

    kinabalu said:

    Farooq said:

    Leon said:

    Omnium said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Top ten empires judged by might, scale, impact, romance, prowess, victories, astonishingness, pivotality

    1. British
    2. Roman
    3. Ottoman
    4. Mongol
    5. American
    6. Chinese
    7. Portuguese
    8. Spanish
    9. Inca
    10. Persian

    Mongol empire above the Spanish.... hmm I disagree. What did the Mongols really achieve?
    2nd biggest ever - behind only the British - and transformed China. Is my thinking
    The Macedonions and the Egyptians definitely are above the Incas. I'd suggest above the Portugese and the Mongols too.
    I was feeling a bit “Woke” - so I put the Incas in. Take them out again?

    There is an argument for the Nazi empire being in the top ten in terms of the satanic and hypnotic grip it has had on us, ever since - and also its politico-cultural impact - see Ukraine now

    An absolutely evil empire, of course, but evil empires can still impress
    Just more evil, really. Empires are inherently bad.
    Cept ours. Ours was complex in its moral underpinnings, its motivations, its prosecution, its legacy. An undertaking of light and shade, with consequences too nuanced to be condemned out of hand.
    Yes, obviously apart from ours.
    Others relentlessly exploited divided or technologically underdeveloped people. We brought the candle of civilisation into the darkness.
    Well said
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 21,298
    kinabalu said:

    Farooq said:

    Leon said:

    Omnium said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Top ten empires judged by might, scale, impact, romance, prowess, victories, astonishingness, pivotality

    1. British
    2. Roman
    3. Ottoman
    4. Mongol
    5. American
    6. Chinese
    7. Portuguese
    8. Spanish
    9. Inca
    10. Persian

    Mongol empire above the Spanish.... hmm I disagree. What did the Mongols really achieve?
    2nd biggest ever - behind only the British - and transformed China. Is my thinking
    The Macedonions and the Egyptians definitely are above the Incas. I'd suggest above the Portugese and the Mongols too.
    I was feeling a bit “Woke” - so I put the Incas in. Take them out again?

    There is an argument for the Nazi empire being in the top ten in terms of the satanic and hypnotic grip it has had on us, ever since - and also its politico-cultural impact - see Ukraine now

    An absolutely evil empire, of course, but evil empires can still impress
    Just more evil, really. Empires are inherently bad.
    Cept ours. Ours was complex in its moral underpinnings, its motivations, its prosecution, its legacy. An undertaking of light and shade, with consequences too nuanced to be condemned out of hand.
    Caroline Elkins, who is a Harvard history professor, has just published a book which describes the British Empire has thoroughly steeped in violence. It is mildly controversial.

    Her previous book described Britain’s war against against the Mau Mau as a “gulag”, and was her testimony was used in the case that saw Britain pay £20m in compensation to Kenyan victims of colonial atrocities.
  • OmniumOmnium Posts: 10,759

    Disgracefully, nobody has mentioned the NZ Empire which commenced formally in 1901 with control of Niue and the Cook Islands and, with various comings and goings, continues to this day.

    The island of Tokelau (population 1500) is currently administrated by Ross Ardern, who happens to be Jacinda’s father.

    I've recently read Captain Cook's diaries. Unimaginable that you could sail for months in floating crate and then with just some tens of you take on a whole country. Similar of course to the Spanish in America.
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 21,298
    Omnium said:

    Leon said:

    Omnium said:

    Leon said:

    Omnium said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Top ten empires judged by might, scale, impact, romance, prowess, victories, astonishingness, pivotality

    1. British
    2. Roman
    3. Ottoman
    4. Mongol
    5. American
    6. Chinese
    7. Portuguese
    8. Spanish
    9. Inca
    10. Persian

    Mongol empire above the Spanish.... hmm I disagree. What did the Mongols really achieve?
    2nd biggest ever - behind only the British - and transformed China. Is my thinking
    The Macedonions and the Egyptians definitely are above the Incas. I'd suggest above the Portugese and the Mongols too.
    I was feeling a bit “Woke” - so I put the Incas in. Take them out again?

    There is an argument for the Nazi empire being in the top ten in terms of the satanic and hypnotic grip it has had on us, ever since - and also its politico-cultural impact - see Ukraine now

    An absolutely evil empire, of course, but evil empires can still impress
    The Nazi Empire was very temporary.

    The Inca were rolled over by a few Spaniards. However they were a locally fantastic cultural and societal peak, whereas the Mongols clearly weren't.

    Your list, your choices.
    Yeah I wouldn’t go MAD and put the Nazis in the top five or anything. That would be morally wrong.

    But number 7 or 8? Arguable
    Not unless you want to include the French too - and they'd have to be much higher up. Napoleon really did have an Empire.

    I wonder too about America in the list. They are I think second in terms of global power projection ever, but they're far from imperialist - although much more so than they claim - for example the Phillipines War.
    America is an empire.

    What do you think happened to all those indigenous Indians? Who controls the global trading system?
  • If Keir does well in local elections he’s on his way to being one of the most successful Labour leaders ever
  • BannedinnParisBannedinnParis Posts: 1,884

    carnforth said:
    That's fascinating, thanks. Labour not doing as well as I expected, and the Lib Dems better.
    It must be possible to do similar historic summaries and see if there's any correlation with more important elections.

    What we know from past experience is that local by-elections in the run-up to the main May local elections can give a reasonably good indicator about what might happen

    is doing a fair bit of heavy lifting.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,277
    edited April 2022

    Omnium said:

    Leon said:

    Omnium said:

    Leon said:

    Omnium said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Top ten empires judged by might, scale, impact, romance, prowess, victories, astonishingness, pivotality

    1. British
    2. Roman
    3. Ottoman
    4. Mongol
    5. American
    6. Chinese
    7. Portuguese
    8. Spanish
    9. Inca
    10. Persian

    Mongol empire above the Spanish.... hmm I disagree. What did the Mongols really achieve?
    2nd biggest ever - behind only the British - and transformed China. Is my thinking
    The Macedonions and the Egyptians definitely are above the Incas. I'd suggest above the Portugese and the Mongols too.
    I was feeling a bit “Woke” - so I put the Incas in. Take them out again?

    There is an argument for the Nazi empire being in the top ten in terms of the satanic and hypnotic grip it has had on us, ever since - and also its politico-cultural impact - see Ukraine now

    An absolutely evil empire, of course, but evil empires can still impress
    The Nazi Empire was very temporary.

    The Inca were rolled over by a few Spaniards. However they were a locally fantastic cultural and societal peak, whereas the Mongols clearly weren't.

    Your list, your choices.
    Yeah I wouldn’t go MAD and put the Nazis in the top five or anything. That would be morally wrong.

    But number 7 or 8? Arguable
    Not unless you want to include the French too - and they'd have to be much higher up. Napoleon really did have an Empire.

    I wonder too about America in the list. They are I think second in terms of global power projection ever, but they're far from imperialist - although much more so than they claim - for example the Phillipines War.
    America is an empire.

    What do you think happened to all those indigenous Indians? Who controls the global trading system?
    America is absolutely an empire

    It just happened to expand overland rather than overseas. As the Russian empire did (and they at least admitted theirs was an empire and called the leader a Caesar - or a tsar)

    Beyond the USA America has had formal and informal possessions from the Philippines to Puerto Rico to Guam to Samoa to the Caribbean

    And with the dollar it has exercised the same trading hegemony the british did

    And now as the American empire fades we can begin to see that it had its virtues. Is a world run by China going to be superior? Hmmm

  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 27,892
    edited April 2022
    MattW said:

    Anyhoo, morning all (Moscow Time).

    Is there news about casualties on the Moskva, yet?

    I've just seen a note that a Turkish ship rescued around 50:

    https://www.trtworld.com/turkey/turkish-ship-rescues-over-50-russian-sailors-from-naval-cruiser-moskva-56382?utm_source=other&utm_medium=rss

    PB pedantry: Moscow's ahead of us, timewise, apart from Easter.
  • OmniumOmnium Posts: 10,759

    If Keir does well in local elections he’s on his way to being one of the most successful Labour leaders ever

    The list of successful Labour leaders is just
    1.Blair
    isn't it?

    I know many would have Atlee there, but the closer you look at the Atlee government the worse it looks.
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 21,298
    Speaking of empires, or perhaps imperial nostalgia, I was asked about a year ago by a senior Labour figure what it would take for Britain to “recover some of the power and prestige we had when we were an Empire”.

    I did give him an answer, which largely involves confederating with Canada.

    Perhaps I should write a header.
  • BannedinnParisBannedinnParis Posts: 1,884
    Omnium said:

    If Keir does well in local elections he’s on his way to being one of the most successful Labour leaders ever

    The list of successful Labour leaders is just
    1.Blair
    isn't it?

    I know many would have Atlee there, but the closer you look at the Atlee government the worse it looks.
    It's a very low bar to clear, I am sure we can all agree.
  • StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 8,243

    kinabalu said:

    @yougov

    Who do Britons want to win the French presidential election?

    All Britons: Macron 37% / Le Pen 19%

    Con voters: Macron 24% / Le Pen 37%
    Lab voters: Macron 53% / Le Pen 8%

    There they are again, that 20%, same people - Trump, Hard Brexit, now LePen. Will also, if asked, be very keen on the idea of decanting refugees to Rwanda. What a horror show. Should be packed off to Rwanda themselves imo.
    Looking at those figures confirms for me why I left the Conservative Party. People who can endorse Le Pen have nothing in common with me. Shows the unfortunate distance and direction the Conservative Party has travelled in its desire to appease and please those who voted for Farage.
    I agree with you completely (you can share the smelling salts).

    Macron is an abject, awful, inappropriate, disaster of a quasi-effective President.

    He's also the only option on the ballot and needs to win. Anyone backing Le Pen is either ignorant or has very unpleasant politics, or both.
    I’m not really supposed to comment on domestic politics, but the best potential president is not in the second round
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 21,298
    Omnium said:

    If Keir does well in local elections he’s on his way to being one of the most successful Labour leaders ever

    The list of successful Labour leaders is just
    1.Blair
    isn't it?

    I know many would have Atlee there, but the closer you look at the Atlee government the worse it looks.
    You should elaborate on your last point.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,561
    Farooq said:

    Leon said:

    Farooq said:

    Leon said:

    Farooq said:

    Leon said:

    Top ten empires judged by might, scale, impact, romance, prowess, victories, astonishingness, pivotality

    1. British
    2. Roman
    3. Ottoman
    4. Mongol
    5. American
    6. Chinese
    7. Portuguese
    8. Spanish
    9. Inca
    10. Persian

    Roman before British, surely.
    It is all purely subjective. But wasn't the British empire the first to span the entire globe (the second being the American economic empire, and the third may be the Chinese economic empire)? In addition, the British empire was a vast area ruled by a tiny country, and when the empire ended, it did so mostly through agreements rather than conquests. And the effects of the British Empire are still felt around the world, culturally and politically.

    Against that, the British empire lasted only about two centuries (a few decades at peak), whilst the Roman empire lasted ?over double? the length. And the Roman Empire was long enough ago that we can think of it as being 'cool' without being too bothered about the hideousness at its heart.

    I'd also probably put the Ottoman Empire above the Roman, for the area ruled, its effects, and how long it lasted.

    But as I say, it's all subjective.
    I think you need to look at the extent of the French Empire in the early nineteenth century. From Indonesia to the Americas, it was truly global and possibly a touch earlier than Britain's?
    If it was that good we’d all be speaking French. We don’t. Even where it colonised they’ve abandoned much of the culture - see Indochina

    I’d have it in the top 20. Above the Aztec behind the Assyrian
    I was only saying it was global in scale.
    Clearly globality (yeah, that's a word now) was a possibility unlocked by technology because it happened all at once with several different empires of European origin.

    I know you're mostly trying to provoke in this whole thread, but it doe seem you're a bit confused. You emphasis scale here, but minimise it there. You're mainly trying to objectify your subjective feelings.
    I was just trying to stop you all being dull. You in particular. Because you can be quite engaging

    That said, my list actually took some thought. Scale is absolutely vital for judging empire, empires are all about conquest. I’d put cultural impact next and nearly as important

    The british empire was the biggest ever and the global hegemony of the English language gives it - to my mind - the most cultural impact (with Rome either equal or a close second)

    So britain’s primacy is justified. The French empire had scale but so did Spain Portugal China etc etc, and France had much less cultural impact (outside Africa)

    Anyway now I must continue my hike over the unfairly maligned Chilterns. I am drowning in the song of skylarks. Wonderful
    It's nice of you to try to cure my chronic dullness, but better men and women than you have tried and failed and run screaming from the arena.
    You flatter yourself. They just agree in the car home from your dinner parties "Remind me never to do that again...."
  • TazTaz Posts: 14,383

    Speaking of empires, or perhaps imperial nostalgia, I was asked about a year ago by a senior Labour figure what it would take for Britain to “recover some of the power and prestige we had when we were an Empire”.

    I did give him an answer, which largely involves confederating with Canada.

    Perhaps I should write a header.

    Why not ?

    Sounds an interesting concept.
  • TazTaz Posts: 14,383
    ping said:

    carnforth said:
    Interesting Con>Green shift
    The Greens are the real winners and I expect them to be after the locals.
  • StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 8,243
    Farooq said:

    Leon said:

    Top ten empires judged by might, scale, impact, romance, prowess, victories, astonishingness, pivotality

    1. British
    2. Roman
    3. Ottoman
    4. Mongol
    5. American
    6. Chinese
    7. Portuguese
    8. Spanish
    9. Inca
    10. Persian

    Egypt missing from this list means it can only be a deliberate attempt to provoke.
    French as well. Napoleon shaped the history of Europe, as did the Sun King
  • OmniumOmnium Posts: 10,759

    Omnium said:

    If Keir does well in local elections he’s on his way to being one of the most successful Labour leaders ever

    The list of successful Labour leaders is just
    1.Blair
    isn't it?

    I know many would have Atlee there, but the closer you look at the Atlee government the worse it looks.
    You should elaborate on your last point.
    It's clearly a big question. I think the best example is how long the UK endured rationing.
  • mwadamsmwadams Posts: 3,590

    Speaking of empires, or perhaps imperial nostalgia, I was asked about a year ago by a senior Labour figure what it would take for Britain to “recover some of the power and prestige we had when we were an Empire”.

    I did give him an answer, which largely involves confederating with Canada.

    Perhaps I should write a header.

    We should do that and move the joint capital and seat of Government to Toronto (just to annoy everyone). What's left of the Monarchy can be moved to their new official residence complex in Winnipeg and we can get on with things.
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 32,521
    Leon said:

    Top ten empires judged by might, scale, impact, romance, prowess, victories, astonishingness, pivotality

    1. British
    2. Roman
    3. Ottoman
    4. Mongol
    5. American
    6. Chinese
    7. Portuguese
    8. Spanish
    9. Inca
    10. Persian

    I would like to have seen the Akkadian Empire in there, not because it was really that big but because it was the first.

    I would also suggest perhaps the Alexandrian Macedonian Empire for its scale (From Libya to India and the River Oxus in central Asia), the fact it beat the Empire you have at Number 10 and just general coolness.

    But of course it didn't outlast its founder.

    But otherwise I think the list is pretty good.
  • mwadamsmwadams Posts: 3,590

    Leon said:

    Top ten empires judged by might, scale, impact, romance, prowess, victories, astonishingness, pivotality

    1. British
    2. Roman
    3. Ottoman
    4. Mongol
    5. American
    6. Chinese
    7. Portuguese
    8. Spanish
    9. Inca
    10. Persian

    I would like to have seen the Akkadian Empire in there, not because it was really that big but because it was the first.

    I would also suggest perhaps the Alexandrian Macedonian Empire for its scale (From Libya to India and the River Oxus in central Asia), the fact it beat the Empire you have at Number 10 and just general coolness.

    But of course it didn't outlast its founder.

    But otherwise I think the list is pretty good.
    If we have to stick to 10, I'd relegate the Incas interesting and locally violent though they were, and vote you Akkadians in at 9, with the Johnnie-come-lately Persians staying at 10.
  • mwadamsmwadams Posts: 3,590
    mwadams said:

    Leon said:

    Top ten empires judged by might, scale, impact, romance, prowess, victories, astonishingness, pivotality

    1. British
    2. Roman
    3. Ottoman
    4. Mongol
    5. American
    6. Chinese
    7. Portuguese
    8. Spanish
    9. Inca
    10. Persian

    I would like to have seen the Akkadian Empire in there, not because it was really that big but because it was the first.

    I would also suggest perhaps the Alexandrian Macedonian Empire for its scale (From Libya to India and the River Oxus in central Asia), the fact it beat the Empire you have at Number 10 and just general coolness.

    But of course it didn't outlast its founder.

    But otherwise I think the list is pretty good.
    If we have to stick to 10, I'd relegate the Incas interesting and locally violent though they were, and vote you Akkadians in at 9, with the Johnnie-come-lately Persians staying at 10.
    To add: my justification is that they are responsible for the development of writing which we have to admit has been fairly influential.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,714
    Farooq said:


    Nick Boles
    @NickBoles
    ·
    4h
    Before I head off for Easter, and switch off Twitter, some Good Friday thoughts about Keir Starmer.

    First, the bleeding obvious, he’s not exactly charismatic or exciting 1/



    Nick Boles
    @NickBoles
    ·
    4h
    I’d call that a pretty impressive scorecard. He’s not a political wizard. Not an Obama, a Clinton or a Blair. But I reckon he’ll be Prime Minister after the next election and deserve to be. END

    https://twitter.com/NickBoles/status/1514900359902285825

    I think that's a pretty fair summary.
    I'll be rooting for him at the next election, though probably not actually voting for his party.
    He needs a big idea to run with.

    And soon.

    Still feels like the Lab lead is very soft.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,830
    mwadams said:

    mwadams said:

    Leon said:

    Top ten empires judged by might, scale, impact, romance, prowess, victories, astonishingness, pivotality

    1. British
    2. Roman
    3. Ottoman
    4. Mongol
    5. American
    6. Chinese
    7. Portuguese
    8. Spanish
    9. Inca
    10. Persian

    I would like to have seen the Akkadian Empire in there, not because it was really that big but because it was the first.

    I would also suggest perhaps the Alexandrian Macedonian Empire for its scale (From Libya to India and the River Oxus in central Asia), the fact it beat the Empire you have at Number 10 and just general coolness.

    But of course it didn't outlast its founder.

    But otherwise I think the list is pretty good.
    If we have to stick to 10, I'd relegate the Incas interesting and locally violent though they were, and vote you Akkadians in at 9, with the Johnnie-come-lately Persians staying at 10.
    To add: my justification is that they are responsible for the development of writing which we have to admit has been fairly influential.
    TBF the Incans and Chinese might differ on what "writing" was.
  • OmniumOmnium Posts: 10,759

    Farooq said:


    Nick Boles
    @NickBoles
    ·
    4h
    Before I head off for Easter, and switch off Twitter, some Good Friday thoughts about Keir Starmer.

    First, the bleeding obvious, he’s not exactly charismatic or exciting 1/



    Nick Boles
    @NickBoles
    ·
    4h
    I’d call that a pretty impressive scorecard. He’s not a political wizard. Not an Obama, a Clinton or a Blair. But I reckon he’ll be Prime Minister after the next election and deserve to be. END

    https://twitter.com/NickBoles/status/1514900359902285825

    I think that's a pretty fair summary.
    I'll be rooting for him at the next election, though probably not actually voting for his party.
    He needs a big idea to run with.

    And soon.

    Still feels like the Lab lead is very soft.
    The Labour lead seems far too solid for my liking.
  • boulayboulay Posts: 5,486
    mwadams said:

    Leon said:

    Top ten empires judged by might, scale, impact, romance, prowess, victories, astonishingness, pivotality

    1. British
    2. Roman
    3. Ottoman
    4. Mongol
    5. American
    6. Chinese
    7. Portuguese
    8. Spanish
    9. Inca
    10. Persian

    I would like to have seen the Akkadian Empire in there, not because it was really that big but because it was the first.

    I would also suggest perhaps the Alexandrian Macedonian Empire for its scale (From Libya to India and the River Oxus in central Asia), the fact it beat the Empire you have at Number 10 and just general coolness.

    But of course it didn't outlast its founder.

    But otherwise I think the list is pretty good.
    If we have to stick to 10, I'd relegate the Incas interesting and locally violent though they were, and vote you Akkadians in at 9, with the Johnnie-come-lately Persians staying at 10.
    Have to include the Zulu empire - not only for martial prowess but it lead to one of the best bank holiday weekend films ever - Zulu - and the cultural impact of their music across the world with the Lion Sleeps Tonight……
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 21,298

    Farooq said:


    Nick Boles
    @NickBoles
    ·
    4h
    Before I head off for Easter, and switch off Twitter, some Good Friday thoughts about Keir Starmer.

    First, the bleeding obvious, he’s not exactly charismatic or exciting 1/



    Nick Boles
    @NickBoles
    ·
    4h
    I’d call that a pretty impressive scorecard. He’s not a political wizard. Not an Obama, a Clinton or a Blair. But I reckon he’ll be Prime Minister after the next election and deserve to be. END

    https://twitter.com/NickBoles/status/1514900359902285825

    I think that's a pretty fair summary.
    I'll be rooting for him at the next election, though probably not actually voting for his party.
    He needs a big idea to run with.

    And soon.

    Still feels like the Lab lead is very soft.
    White heat 2.0
    (Or perhaps 3.0 or 4.0 depending on the tech stack).
  • boulayboulay Posts: 5,486
    Carnyx said:

    mwadams said:

    mwadams said:

    Leon said:

    Top ten empires judged by might, scale, impact, romance, prowess, victories, astonishingness, pivotality

    1. British
    2. Roman
    3. Ottoman
    4. Mongol
    5. American
    6. Chinese
    7. Portuguese
    8. Spanish
    9. Inca
    10. Persian

    I would like to have seen the Akkadian Empire in there, not because it was really that big but because it was the first.

    I would also suggest perhaps the Alexandrian Macedonian Empire for its scale (From Libya to India and the River Oxus in central Asia), the fact it beat the Empire you have at Number 10 and just general coolness.

    But of course it didn't outlast its founder.

    But otherwise I think the list is pretty good.
    If we have to stick to 10, I'd relegate the Incas interesting and locally violent though they were, and vote you Akkadians in at 9, with the Johnnie-come-lately Persians staying at 10.
    To add: my justification is that they are responsible for the development of writing which we have to admit has been fairly influential.
    TBF the Incans and Chinese might differ on what "writing" was.
    There is/was a very good documentary series on iPlayer about the history of writing.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 23,148

    MattW said:

    Anyhoo, morning all (Moscow Time).

    Is there news about casualties on the Moskva, yet?

    I've just seen a note that a Turkish ship rescued around 50:

    https://www.trtworld.com/turkey/turkish-ship-rescues-over-50-russian-sailors-from-naval-cruiser-moskva-56382?utm_source=other&utm_medium=rss

    Those 50 sailors are going to be catching up fast on what has REALLY happened the past 50 days...

    How many will claim political asylum?
    Don't they have to be interned until the end of the war under the Geneva Conventions, having been rescued by a non-belligerent country?
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,424
    boulay said:

    Carnyx said:

    mwadams said:

    mwadams said:

    Leon said:

    Top ten empires judged by might, scale, impact, romance, prowess, victories, astonishingness, pivotality

    1. British
    2. Roman
    3. Ottoman
    4. Mongol
    5. American
    6. Chinese
    7. Portuguese
    8. Spanish
    9. Inca
    10. Persian

    I would like to have seen the Akkadian Empire in there, not because it was really that big but because it was the first.

    I would also suggest perhaps the Alexandrian Macedonian Empire for its scale (From Libya to India and the River Oxus in central Asia), the fact it beat the Empire you have at Number 10 and just general coolness.

    But of course it didn't outlast its founder.

    But otherwise I think the list is pretty good.
    If we have to stick to 10, I'd relegate the Incas interesting and locally violent though they were, and vote you Akkadians in at 9, with the Johnnie-come-lately Persians staying at 10.
    To add: my justification is that they are responsible for the development of writing which we have to admit has been fairly influential.
    TBF the Incans and Chinese might differ on what "writing" was.
    There is/was a very good documentary series on iPlayer about the history of writing.
    Do you recall any further details? Please.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 23,148
    Taz said:

    Speaking of empires, or perhaps imperial nostalgia, I was asked about a year ago by a senior Labour figure what it would take for Britain to “recover some of the power and prestige we had when we were an Empire”.

    I did give him an answer, which largely involves confederating with Canada.

    Perhaps I should write a header.

    Why not ?

    Sounds an interesting concept.
    CANZUK?

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CANZUK
  • boulayboulay Posts: 5,486

    boulay said:

    Carnyx said:

    mwadams said:

    mwadams said:

    Leon said:

    Top ten empires judged by might, scale, impact, romance, prowess, victories, astonishingness, pivotality

    1. British
    2. Roman
    3. Ottoman
    4. Mongol
    5. American
    6. Chinese
    7. Portuguese
    8. Spanish
    9. Inca
    10. Persian

    I would like to have seen the Akkadian Empire in there, not because it was really that big but because it was the first.

    I would also suggest perhaps the Alexandrian Macedonian Empire for its scale (From Libya to India and the River Oxus in central Asia), the fact it beat the Empire you have at Number 10 and just general coolness.

    But of course it didn't outlast its founder.

    But otherwise I think the list is pretty good.
    If we have to stick to 10, I'd relegate the Incas interesting and locally violent though they were, and vote you Akkadians in at 9, with the Johnnie-come-lately Persians staying at 10.
    To add: my justification is that they are responsible for the development of writing which we have to admit has been fairly influential.
    TBF the Incans and Chinese might differ on what "writing" was.
    There is/was a very good documentary series on iPlayer about the history of writing.
    Do you recall any further details? Please.
    It was very interesting how it showed the way in which Egyptian hieroglyphics and Chinese writing developed the same way amongst other things. So symbols directly representing something such as wheat or water could be combined with another symbol to make another word because if you added the sounds together of the two symbol words they were the same as the on other word.

    It should still be there in the documentaries: history section.
  • JohnLilburneJohnLilburne Posts: 6,241
    boulay said:

    mwadams said:

    Leon said:

    Top ten empires judged by might, scale, impact, romance, prowess, victories, astonishingness, pivotality

    1. British
    2. Roman
    3. Ottoman
    4. Mongol
    5. American
    6. Chinese
    7. Portuguese
    8. Spanish
    9. Inca
    10. Persian

    I would like to have seen the Akkadian Empire in there, not because it was really that big but because it was the first.

    I would also suggest perhaps the Alexandrian Macedonian Empire for its scale (From Libya to India and the River Oxus in central Asia), the fact it beat the Empire you have at Number 10 and just general coolness.

    But of course it didn't outlast its founder.

    But otherwise I think the list is pretty good.
    If we have to stick to 10, I'd relegate the Incas interesting and locally violent though they were, and vote you Akkadians in at 9, with the Johnnie-come-lately Persians staying at 10.
    Have to include the Zulu empire - not only for martial prowess but it lead to one of the best bank holiday weekend films ever - Zulu - and the cultural impact of their music across the world with the Lion Sleeps Tonight……
    Has anyone mentioned the Hunnic? Short duration but immense impact on Roman and Byzantine Europe.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,830
    Re the Rwandan thing, has this been discussed? Pics of the tourist hostel HMG have presumably leased in a tearing hurry.

    I'm not entirely sure it will satisfy some, who will see it as pampering the illegals and refugees. And I'm not entirely sure that it can handle 30K people a year.

    https://twitter.com/theipaper/status/1514569538024751113
    https://inews.co.uk/news/politics/inside-rwanda-centre-asylum-seekers-uk-channel-migrants-1575640?ito=social_itw_theipaper&utm_medium=Social&utm_source=Twitter#Echobox=1649936491
  • TimTTimT Posts: 6,468
    boulay said:

    boulay said:

    Carnyx said:

    mwadams said:

    mwadams said:

    Leon said:

    Top ten empires judged by might, scale, impact, romance, prowess, victories, astonishingness, pivotality

    1. British
    2. Roman
    3. Ottoman
    4. Mongol
    5. American
    6. Chinese
    7. Portuguese
    8. Spanish
    9. Inca
    10. Persian

    I would like to have seen the Akkadian Empire in there, not because it was really that big but because it was the first.

    I would also suggest perhaps the Alexandrian Macedonian Empire for its scale (From Libya to India and the River Oxus in central Asia), the fact it beat the Empire you have at Number 10 and just general coolness.

    But of course it didn't outlast its founder.

    But otherwise I think the list is pretty good.
    If we have to stick to 10, I'd relegate the Incas interesting and locally violent though they were, and vote you Akkadians in at 9, with the Johnnie-come-lately Persians staying at 10.
    To add: my justification is that they are responsible for the development of writing which we have to admit has been fairly influential.
    TBF the Incans and Chinese might differ on what "writing" was.
    There is/was a very good documentary series on iPlayer about the history of writing.
    Do you recall any further details? Please.
    It was very interesting how it showed the way in which Egyptian hieroglyphics and Chinese writing developed the same way amongst other things. So symbols directly representing something such as wheat or water could be combined with another symbol to make another word because if you added the sounds together of the two symbol words they were the same as the on other word.

    It should still be there in the documentaries: history section.
    One of my more interesting forays in Lebanon was to the museum at Biblos.
  • mwadamsmwadams Posts: 3,590
    Carnyx said:

    mwadams said:

    mwadams said:

    Leon said:

    Top ten empires judged by might, scale, impact, romance, prowess, victories, astonishingness, pivotality

    1. British
    2. Roman
    3. Ottoman
    4. Mongol
    5. American
    6. Chinese
    7. Portuguese
    8. Spanish
    9. Inca
    10. Persian

    I would like to have seen the Akkadian Empire in there, not because it was really that big but because it was the first.

    I would also suggest perhaps the Alexandrian Macedonian Empire for its scale (From Libya to India and the River Oxus in central Asia), the fact it beat the Empire you have at Number 10 and just general coolness.

    But of course it didn't outlast its founder.

    But otherwise I think the list is pretty good.
    If we have to stick to 10, I'd relegate the Incas interesting and locally violent though they were, and vote you Akkadians in at 9, with the Johnnie-come-lately Persians staying at 10.
    To add: my justification is that they are responsible for the development of writing which we have to admit has been fairly influential.
    TBF the Incans and Chinese might differ on what "writing" was.
    True. There was certainly parallel development. But the earliest writing in Mesopotamia is about 2k years earlier than the earliest Chinese writing found (so far).

    The Incans are way later, AIUI.
  • mwadamsmwadams Posts: 3,590
    boulay said:

    boulay said:

    Carnyx said:

    mwadams said:

    mwadams said:

    Leon said:

    Top ten empires judged by might, scale, impact, romance, prowess, victories, astonishingness, pivotality

    1. British
    2. Roman
    3. Ottoman
    4. Mongol
    5. American
    6. Chinese
    7. Portuguese
    8. Spanish
    9. Inca
    10. Persian

    I would like to have seen the Akkadian Empire in there, not because it was really that big but because it was the first.

    I would also suggest perhaps the Alexandrian Macedonian Empire for its scale (From Libya to India and the River Oxus in central Asia), the fact it beat the Empire you have at Number 10 and just general coolness.

    But of course it didn't outlast its founder.

    But otherwise I think the list is pretty good.
    If we have to stick to 10, I'd relegate the Incas interesting and locally violent though they were, and vote you Akkadians in at 9, with the Johnnie-come-lately Persians staying at 10.
    To add: my justification is that they are responsible for the development of writing which we have to admit has been fairly influential.
    TBF the Incans and Chinese might differ on what "writing" was.
    There is/was a very good documentary series on iPlayer about the history of writing.
    Do you recall any further details? Please.
    It was very interesting how it showed the way in which Egyptian hieroglyphics and Chinese writing developed the same way amongst other things. So symbols directly representing something such as wheat or water could be combined with another symbol to make another word because if you added the sounds together of the two symbol words they were the same as the on other word.

    It should still be there in the documentaries: history section.
    Likewise, cuneiform starts with pictograms and becomes logographic over ~1000 years.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 23,148
    edited April 2022

    Leon said:

    Omnium said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Top ten empires judged by might, scale, impact, romance, prowess, victories, astonishingness, pivotality

    1. British
    2. Roman
    3. Ottoman
    4. Mongol
    5. American
    6. Chinese
    7. Portuguese
    8. Spanish
    9. Inca
    10. Persian

    Mongol empire above the Spanish.... hmm I disagree. What did the Mongols really achieve?
    2nd biggest ever - behind only the British - and transformed China. Is my thinking
    The Macedonions and the Egyptians definitely are above the Incas. I'd suggest above the Portugese and the Mongols too.
    I was feeling a bit “Woke” - so I put the Incas in. Take them out again?

    There is an argument for the Nazi empire being in the top ten in terms of the satanic and hypnotic grip it has had on us, ever since - and also its politico-cultural impact - see Ukraine now

    An absolutely evil empire, of course, but evil empires can still impress
    Nazis as the best dressed evil empire?
    I don't know. There's a lot to be said for a toga and a military muscle cuirass.

    On togas, has anyone tried ironing a real toga (as opposed to a bedsheet over a teeshirt).

    Very roughly a 5m diameter semi-circle of cloth.

    Sort of thing you'd wrap BJ up in to stop him yammering.

    Leon said:

    Omnium said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Top ten empires judged by might, scale, impact, romance, prowess, victories, astonishingness, pivotality

    1. British
    2. Roman
    3. Ottoman
    4. Mongol
    5. American
    6. Chinese
    7. Portuguese
    8. Spanish
    9. Inca
    10. Persian

    Roman before British, surely.
    That was a close call.

    However the sheer scale of the british empire - the biggest ever - edges it for me. Also the global impact of English and industry, springing therefrom
    A slightly better exit from Empire too, although the jury might still be out on that.
    Is 50 years not enough for you?? Most was gone by 1972....
    Brunei and Belize endured till the '80s. And Hong Kong went in 1997.
    Wasn’t our very first true colony Bermuda? It is mentioned by Shakespeare. And we still have it

    500 years….
    You’d think they’d have earned full incorporation into the UK by now, as France has done with some of its overseas regions.

    The UK.
    England, Scotland, Wales, Northern Ireland…and BERMUDA.
    I think there's a lot to be said for that, but on a wider basis. Representation in the Commons for Falkands, Ascension, Bermuda. Perhaps even IOM and the others. And Eel Pie Island.

    There are some quite serious reasons to do it - protection of marine environments etc.

    I wonder whether France has a 6th Republic coming down the track in the next 20 years.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 27,892
    edited April 2022
    boulay said:

    boulay said:

    Carnyx said:

    mwadams said:

    mwadams said:

    Leon said:

    Top ten empires judged by might, scale, impact, romance, prowess, victories, astonishingness, pivotality

    1. British
    2. Roman
    3. Ottoman
    4. Mongol
    5. American
    6. Chinese
    7. Portuguese
    8. Spanish
    9. Inca
    10. Persian

    I would like to have seen the Akkadian Empire in there, not because it was really that big but because it was the first.

    I would also suggest perhaps the Alexandrian Macedonian Empire for its scale (From Libya to India and the River Oxus in central Asia), the fact it beat the Empire you have at Number 10 and just general coolness.

    But of course it didn't outlast its founder.

    But otherwise I think the list is pretty good.
    If we have to stick to 10, I'd relegate the Incas interesting and locally violent though they were, and vote you Akkadians in at 9, with the Johnnie-come-lately Persians staying at 10.
    To add: my justification is that they are responsible for the development of writing which we have to admit has been fairly influential.
    TBF the Incans and Chinese might differ on what "writing" was.
    There is/was a very good documentary series on iPlayer about the history of writing.
    Do you recall any further details? Please.
    It was very interesting how it showed the way in which Egyptian hieroglyphics and Chinese writing developed the same way amongst other things. So symbols directly representing something such as wheat or water could be combined with another symbol to make another word because if you added the sounds together of the two symbol words they were the same as the on other word.

    It should still be there in the documentaries: history section.
    The Secret History of Writing?
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m000mtml

    Not on iplayer but try this:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tguoS1nQ4Kw
  • MattWMattW Posts: 23,148
    edited April 2022

    MattW said:

    Anyhoo, morning all (Moscow Time).

    Is there news about casualties on the Moskva, yet?

    I've just seen a note that a Turkish ship rescued around 50:

    https://www.trtworld.com/turkey/turkish-ship-rescues-over-50-russian-sailors-from-naval-cruiser-moskva-56382?utm_source=other&utm_medium=rss

    PB pedantry: Moscow's ahead of us, timewise, apart from Easter.
    I meant tomorrow morning.

    First like a temporal paradox.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,424
    edited April 2022
    boulay said:

    boulay said:

    Carnyx said:

    mwadams said:

    mwadams said:

    Leon said:

    Top ten empires judged by might, scale, impact, romance, prowess, victories, astonishingness, pivotality

    1. British
    2. Roman
    3. Ottoman
    4. Mongol
    5. American
    6. Chinese
    7. Portuguese
    8. Spanish
    9. Inca
    10. Persian

    I would like to have seen the Akkadian Empire in there, not because it was really that big but because it was the first.

    I would also suggest perhaps the Alexandrian Macedonian Empire for its scale (From Libya to India and the River Oxus in central Asia), the fact it beat the Empire you have at Number 10 and just general coolness.

    But of course it didn't outlast its founder.

    But otherwise I think the list is pretty good.
    If we have to stick to 10, I'd relegate the Incas interesting and locally violent though they were, and vote you Akkadians in at 9, with the Johnnie-come-lately Persians staying at 10.
    To add: my justification is that they are responsible for the development of writing which we have to admit has been fairly influential.
    TBF the Incans and Chinese might differ on what "writing" was.
    There is/was a very good documentary series on iPlayer about the history of writing.
    Do you recall any further details? Please.
    It was very interesting how it showed the way in which Egyptian hieroglyphics and Chinese writing developed the same way amongst other things. So symbols directly representing something such as wheat or water could be combined with another symbol to make another word because if you added the sounds together of the two symbol words they were the same as the on other word.

    It should still be there in the documentaries: history section.
    Found the page but the documentary itself is no longer available. One of the reasons, I suspect, that we downgrade African history is that it was rarely, if ever, written down.
    It's also interesting, and one of these days I'll find out a bit more, I hope, to compare the scripts used in SE Asia. Especially given the strong Chinese influence there.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,830
    MattW said:

    Leon said:

    Omnium said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Top ten empires judged by might, scale, impact, romance, prowess, victories, astonishingness, pivotality

    1. British
    2. Roman
    3. Ottoman
    4. Mongol
    5. American
    6. Chinese
    7. Portuguese
    8. Spanish
    9. Inca
    10. Persian

    Mongol empire above the Spanish.... hmm I disagree. What did the Mongols really achieve?
    2nd biggest ever - behind only the British - and transformed China. Is my thinking
    The Macedonions and the Egyptians definitely are above the Incas. I'd suggest above the Portugese and the Mongols too.
    I was feeling a bit “Woke” - so I put the Incas in. Take them out again?

    There is an argument for the Nazi empire being in the top ten in terms of the satanic and hypnotic grip it has had on us, ever since - and also its politico-cultural impact - see Ukraine now

    An absolutely evil empire, of course, but evil empires can still impress
    Nazis as the best dressed evil empire?
    I don't know. There's a lot to be said for a toga and a military muscle cuirass.
    On togas, has anyone tried ironing a real toga (as opposed to a bedsheet over a teeshirt).

    Very roughly a 5m diameter semi-circle of cloth.

    Sort of thing you'd wrap BJ up in to stop him yammering.
    [snip]

    One just leaves it to one's slaves. As one does the actual putting it on. Instructional film:

    https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-d&q=how+to+wear+a+toga#kpvalbx=_SYhZYtfGAquDhbIPobi7wA422
  • mwadamsmwadams Posts: 3,590
    MattW said:

    MattW said:

    Anyhoo, morning all (Moscow Time).

    Is there news about casualties on the Moskva, yet?

    I've just seen a note that a Turkish ship rescued around 50:

    https://www.trtworld.com/turkey/turkish-ship-rescues-over-50-russian-sailors-from-naval-cruiser-moskva-56382?utm_source=other&utm_medium=rss

    PB pedantry: Moscow's ahead of us, timewise, apart from Easter.
    I meant tomorrow morning.

    First like a temporal paradox.
    I'm just back from the day after tomorrow. Lots of eggs. You will like it there.
  • boulayboulay Posts: 5,486

    boulay said:

    boulay said:

    Carnyx said:

    mwadams said:

    mwadams said:

    Leon said:

    Top ten empires judged by might, scale, impact, romance, prowess, victories, astonishingness, pivotality

    1. British
    2. Roman
    3. Ottoman
    4. Mongol
    5. American
    6. Chinese
    7. Portuguese
    8. Spanish
    9. Inca
    10. Persian

    I would like to have seen the Akkadian Empire in there, not because it was really that big but because it was the first.

    I would also suggest perhaps the Alexandrian Macedonian Empire for its scale (From Libya to India and the River Oxus in central Asia), the fact it beat the Empire you have at Number 10 and just general coolness.

    But of course it didn't outlast its founder.

    But otherwise I think the list is pretty good.
    If we have to stick to 10, I'd relegate the Incas interesting and locally violent though they were, and vote you Akkadians in at 9, with the Johnnie-come-lately Persians staying at 10.
    To add: my justification is that they are responsible for the development of writing which we have to admit has been fairly influential.
    TBF the Incans and Chinese might differ on what "writing" was.
    There is/was a very good documentary series on iPlayer about the history of writing.
    Do you recall any further details? Please.
    It was very interesting how it showed the way in which Egyptian hieroglyphics and Chinese writing developed the same way amongst other things. So symbols directly representing something such as wheat or water could be combined with another symbol to make another word because if you added the sounds together of the two symbol words they were the same as the on other word.

    It should still be there in the documentaries: history section.
    Found the page but the documentary itself is no longer available. One of the reasons, I suspect, that we downgrade African history is that it was rarely, if ever, written down.
    It's also interesting, and one of thee days I'll find out a bit more, I hope, to compare the scripts used in SE Asia. Especially given the strong Chinese influence there.
    Again there is/was a great BBC4 doc on iPlayer called Africa’s great civilisations. Very balanced about Africa’s own role in the slave trade but incredibly interesting on Ethiopia, Great Zimbabwe, Benin etc. I never knew that Swahili was a composite language of Arabic and local East African languages that developed through trading.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,714
    Carnyx said:

    Re the Rwandan thing, has this been discussed? Pics of the tourist hostel HMG have presumably leased in a tearing hurry.

    I'm not entirely sure it will satisfy some, who will see it as pampering the illegals and refugees. And I'm not entirely sure that it can handle 30K people a year.

    https://twitter.com/theipaper/status/1514569538024751113
    https://inews.co.uk/news/politics/inside-rwanda-centre-asylum-seekers-uk-channel-migrants-1575640?ito=social_itw_theipaper&utm_medium=Social&utm_source=Twitter#Echobox=1649936491

    Red Cross policy wonk:

    Jon Featonby
    @jonfeatonby

    Replying to
    @sundersays

    What I’ve only just twigged about the UK plan is that it’s using inadmissibility powers, not the offshoring powers in the bill. They will judge that someone could & should have claimed asylum elsewhere. Then they deem that claim inadmissible - not the responsibility of the UK.

    https://twitter.com/jonfeatonby/status/1514682901081821195

    ===

    So, if I have understood then what happens to them after they touch down in Rwanda is Kegame's issue not UK's.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,424

    boulay said:

    boulay said:

    Carnyx said:

    mwadams said:

    mwadams said:

    Leon said:

    Top ten empires judged by might, scale, impact, romance, prowess, victories, astonishingness, pivotality

    1. British
    2. Roman
    3. Ottoman
    4. Mongol
    5. American
    6. Chinese
    7. Portuguese
    8. Spanish
    9. Inca
    10. Persian

    I would like to have seen the Akkadian Empire in there, not because it was really that big but because it was the first.

    I would also suggest perhaps the Alexandrian Macedonian Empire for its scale (From Libya to India and the River Oxus in central Asia), the fact it beat the Empire you have at Number 10 and just general coolness.

    But of course it didn't outlast its founder.

    But otherwise I think the list is pretty good.
    If we have to stick to 10, I'd relegate the Incas interesting and locally violent though they were, and vote you Akkadians in at 9, with the Johnnie-come-lately Persians staying at 10.
    To add: my justification is that they are responsible for the development of writing which we have to admit has been fairly influential.
    TBF the Incans and Chinese might differ on what "writing" was.
    There is/was a very good documentary series on iPlayer about the history of writing.
    Do you recall any further details? Please.
    It was very interesting how it showed the way in which Egyptian hieroglyphics and Chinese writing developed the same way amongst other things. So symbols directly representing something such as wheat or water could be combined with another symbol to make another word because if you added the sounds together of the two symbol words they were the same as the on other word.

    It should still be there in the documentaries: history section.
    The Secret History of Writing?
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m000mtml

    Not on iplayer but try this:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tguoS1nQ4Kw
    Much obliged
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,523
    edited April 2022
    Have we discussed this one? It's from last week, butimpressively chunky (sample of 12000 in the relevant wards) and specifically about the locals:

    https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/other/tories-facing-election-wipeout-with-devastating-800-seat-loss-that-leads-starmer-to-no10/ar-AAWfEvh?ocid=winp1taskbar&cvid=c4f07da05b4a4fb9844c11a03cc94289
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 21,298
    mwadams said:

    Speaking of empires, or perhaps imperial nostalgia, I was asked about a year ago by a senior Labour figure what it would take for Britain to “recover some of the power and prestige we had when we were an Empire”.

    I did give him an answer, which largely involves confederating with Canada.

    Perhaps I should write a header.

    We should do that and move the joint capital and seat of Government to Toronto (just to annoy everyone). What's left of the Monarchy can be moved to their new official residence complex in Winnipeg and we can get on with things.
    MattW said:

    Taz said:

    Speaking of empires, or perhaps imperial nostalgia, I was asked about a year ago by a senior Labour figure what it would take for Britain to “recover some of the power and prestige we had when we were an Empire”.

    I did give him an answer, which largely involves confederating with Canada.

    Perhaps I should write a header.

    Why not ?

    Sounds an interesting concept.
    CANZUK?

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CANZUK
    CANZUK lacks an overriding strategic rationale and is geographically problematic.

    Anglo-Canada alone would be the third largest country in the world (after Russia and China), and would be 3rd on military spending and could probably close in on 3rd for GDP too.
  • boulayboulay Posts: 5,486

    mwadams said:

    Speaking of empires, or perhaps imperial nostalgia, I was asked about a year ago by a senior Labour figure what it would take for Britain to “recover some of the power and prestige we had when we were an Empire”.

    I did give him an answer, which largely involves confederating with Canada.

    Perhaps I should write a header.

    We should do that and move the joint capital and seat of Government to Toronto (just to annoy everyone). What's left of the Monarchy can be moved to their new official residence complex in Winnipeg and we can get on with things.
    MattW said:

    Taz said:

    Speaking of empires, or perhaps imperial nostalgia, I was asked about a year ago by a senior Labour figure what it would take for Britain to “recover some of the power and prestige we had when we were an Empire”.

    I did give him an answer, which largely involves confederating with Canada.

    Perhaps I should write a header.

    Why not ?

    Sounds an interesting concept.
    CANZUK?

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CANZUK
    CANZUK lacks an overriding strategic rationale and is geographically problematic.

    Anglo-Canada alone would be the third largest country in the world (after Russia and China), and would be 3rd on military spending and could probably close in on 3rd for GDP too.
    We’d have stop the blighters with the French language nonsense though!
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 21,298
    boulay said:

    mwadams said:

    Speaking of empires, or perhaps imperial nostalgia, I was asked about a year ago by a senior Labour figure what it would take for Britain to “recover some of the power and prestige we had when we were an Empire”.

    I did give him an answer, which largely involves confederating with Canada.

    Perhaps I should write a header.

    We should do that and move the joint capital and seat of Government to Toronto (just to annoy everyone). What's left of the Monarchy can be moved to their new official residence complex in Winnipeg and we can get on with things.
    MattW said:

    Taz said:

    Speaking of empires, or perhaps imperial nostalgia, I was asked about a year ago by a senior Labour figure what it would take for Britain to “recover some of the power and prestige we had when we were an Empire”.

    I did give him an answer, which largely involves confederating with Canada.

    Perhaps I should write a header.

    Why not ?

    Sounds an interesting concept.
    CANZUK?

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CANZUK
    CANZUK lacks an overriding strategic rationale and is geographically problematic.

    Anglo-Canada alone would be the third largest country in the world (after Russia and China), and would be 3rd on military spending and could probably close in on 3rd for GDP too.
    We’d have stop the blighters with the French language nonsense though!
    Part of the “deal” would be that Britain becomes more Canadian. We’d probably want to brush up on our French.
  • FishingFishing Posts: 5,036
    MattW said:

    Taz said:

    Speaking of empires, or perhaps imperial nostalgia, I was asked about a year ago by a senior Labour figure what it would take for Britain to “recover some of the power and prestige we had when we were an Empire”.

    I did give him an answer, which largely involves confederating with Canada.

    Perhaps I should write a header.

    Why not ?

    Sounds an interesting concept.
    CANZUK?

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CANZUK
    I think CAUK is better, as the Kiwis have sold their country to China to the extent that the Americans don't share much intelligence with them any more.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,424
    edited April 2022
    boulay said:

    boulay said:

    boulay said:

    Carnyx said:

    mwadams said:

    mwadams said:

    Leon said:

    Top ten empires judged by might, scale, impact, romance, prowess, victories, astonishingness, pivotality

    1. British
    2. Roman
    3. Ottoman
    4. Mongol
    5. American
    6. Chinese
    7. Portuguese
    8. Spanish
    9. Inca
    10. Persian

    I would like to have seen the Akkadian Empire in there, not because it was really that big but because it was the first.

    I would also suggest perhaps the Alexandrian Macedonian Empire for its scale (From Libya to India and the River Oxus in central Asia), the fact it beat the Empire you have at Number 10 and just general coolness.

    But of course it didn't outlast its founder.

    But otherwise I think the list is pretty good.
    If we have to stick to 10, I'd relegate the Incas interesting and locally violent though they were, and vote you Akkadians in at 9, with the Johnnie-come-lately Persians staying at 10.
    To add: my justification is that they are responsible for the development of writing which we have to admit has been fairly influential.
    TBF the Incans and Chinese might differ on what "writing" was.
    There is/was a very good documentary series on iPlayer about the history of writing.
    Do you recall any further details? Please.
    It was very interesting how it showed the way in which Egyptian hieroglyphics and Chinese writing developed the same way amongst other things. So symbols directly representing something such as wheat or water could be combined with another symbol to make another word because if you added the sounds together of the two symbol words they were the same as the on other word.

    It should still be there in the documentaries: history section.
    Found the page but the documentary itself is no longer available. One of the reasons, I suspect, that we downgrade African history is that it was rarely, if ever, written down.
    It's also interesting, and one of thee days I'll find out a bit more, I hope, to compare the scripts used in SE Asia. Especially given the strong Chinese influence there.
    Again there is/was a great BBC4 doc on iPlayer called Africa’s great civilisations. Very balanced about Africa’s own role in the slave trade but incredibly interesting on Ethiopia, Great Zimbabwe, Benin etc. I never knew that Swahili was a composite language of Arabic and local East African languages that developed through trading.
    There were, a while ago, a couple of WEA Zoom courses on the subject. Can't recommend one of them, but there was a lot about the Arab/East African 'interaction'.
    We hear a lot about slavery from West Africa, mainly because it was 'us' but very little about the East Africa trade.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 51,821

    mwadams said:

    Speaking of empires, or perhaps imperial nostalgia, I was asked about a year ago by a senior Labour figure what it would take for Britain to “recover some of the power and prestige we had when we were an Empire”.

    I did give him an answer, which largely involves confederating with Canada.

    Perhaps I should write a header.

    We should do that and move the joint capital and seat of Government to Toronto (just to annoy everyone). What's left of the Monarchy can be moved to their new official residence complex in Winnipeg and we can get on with things.
    MattW said:

    Taz said:

    Speaking of empires, or perhaps imperial nostalgia, I was asked about a year ago by a senior Labour figure what it would take for Britain to “recover some of the power and prestige we had when we were an Empire”.

    I did give him an answer, which largely involves confederating with Canada.

    Perhaps I should write a header.

    Why not ?

    Sounds an interesting concept.
    CANZUK?

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CANZUK
    CANZUK lacks an overriding strategic rationale and is geographically problematic.

    Anglo-Canada alone would be the third largest country in the world (after Russia and China), and would be 3rd on military spending and could probably close in on 3rd for GDP too.
    How about a confederation consisting of all the countries that drive on the left?
  • boulayboulay Posts: 5,486

    boulay said:

    mwadams said:

    Speaking of empires, or perhaps imperial nostalgia, I was asked about a year ago by a senior Labour figure what it would take for Britain to “recover some of the power and prestige we had when we were an Empire”.

    I did give him an answer, which largely involves confederating with Canada.

    Perhaps I should write a header.

    We should do that and move the joint capital and seat of Government to Toronto (just to annoy everyone). What's left of the Monarchy can be moved to their new official residence complex in Winnipeg and we can get on with things.
    MattW said:

    Taz said:

    Speaking of empires, or perhaps imperial nostalgia, I was asked about a year ago by a senior Labour figure what it would take for Britain to “recover some of the power and prestige we had when we were an Empire”.

    I did give him an answer, which largely involves confederating with Canada.

    Perhaps I should write a header.

    Why not ?

    Sounds an interesting concept.
    CANZUK?

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CANZUK
    CANZUK lacks an overriding strategic rationale and is geographically problematic.

    Anglo-Canada alone would be the third largest country in the world (after Russia and China), and would be 3rd on military spending and could probably close in on 3rd for GDP too.
    We’d have stop the blighters with the French language nonsense though!
    Part of the “deal” would be that Britain becomes more Canadian. We’d probably want to brush up on our French.
    At least we would do better in the Winter Olympics.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,830

    boulay said:

    mwadams said:

    Speaking of empires, or perhaps imperial nostalgia, I was asked about a year ago by a senior Labour figure what it would take for Britain to “recover some of the power and prestige we had when we were an Empire”.

    I did give him an answer, which largely involves confederating with Canada.

    Perhaps I should write a header.

    We should do that and move the joint capital and seat of Government to Toronto (just to annoy everyone). What's left of the Monarchy can be moved to their new official residence complex in Winnipeg and we can get on with things.
    MattW said:

    Taz said:

    Speaking of empires, or perhaps imperial nostalgia, I was asked about a year ago by a senior Labour figure what it would take for Britain to “recover some of the power and prestige we had when we were an Empire”.

    I did give him an answer, which largely involves confederating with Canada.

    Perhaps I should write a header.

    Why not ?

    Sounds an interesting concept.
    CANZUK?

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CANZUK
    CANZUK lacks an overriding strategic rationale and is geographically problematic.

    Anglo-Canada alone would be the third largest country in the world (after Russia and China), and would be 3rd on military spending and could probably close in on 3rd for GDP too.
    We’d have stop the blighters with the French language nonsense though!
    Part of the “deal” would be that Britain becomes more Canadian. We’d probably want to brush up on our French.
    And Gaelic. Still very much part of Canadian culture on the eastern side.
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 21,298
    boulay said:

    boulay said:

    mwadams said:

    Speaking of empires, or perhaps imperial nostalgia, I was asked about a year ago by a senior Labour figure what it would take for Britain to “recover some of the power and prestige we had when we were an Empire”.

    I did give him an answer, which largely involves confederating with Canada.

    Perhaps I should write a header.

    We should do that and move the joint capital and seat of Government to Toronto (just to annoy everyone). What's left of the Monarchy can be moved to their new official residence complex in Winnipeg and we can get on with things.
    MattW said:

    Taz said:

    Speaking of empires, or perhaps imperial nostalgia, I was asked about a year ago by a senior Labour figure what it would take for Britain to “recover some of the power and prestige we had when we were an Empire”.

    I did give him an answer, which largely involves confederating with Canada.

    Perhaps I should write a header.

    Why not ?

    Sounds an interesting concept.
    CANZUK?

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CANZUK
    CANZUK lacks an overriding strategic rationale and is geographically problematic.

    Anglo-Canada alone would be the third largest country in the world (after Russia and China), and would be 3rd on military spending and could probably close in on 3rd for GDP too.
    We’d have stop the blighters with the French language nonsense though!
    Part of the “deal” would be that Britain becomes more Canadian. We’d probably want to brush up on our French.
    At least we would do better in the Winter Olympics.
    Ha, didn’t think of that.
  • Nigel_ForemainNigel_Foremain Posts: 14,310

    HYUFD said:

    kinabalu said:

    @yougov

    Who do Britons want to win the French presidential election?

    All Britons: Macron 37% / Le Pen 19%

    Con voters: Macron 24% / Le Pen 37%
    Lab voters: Macron 53% / Le Pen 8%

    There they are again, that 20%, same people - Trump, Hard Brexit, now LePen. Will also, if asked, be very keen on the idea of decanting refugees to Rwanda. What a horror show. Should be packed off to Rwanda themselves imo.
    Looking at those figures confirms for me why I left the Conservative Party. People who can endorse Le Pen have nothing in common with me. Shows the unfortunate distance and direction the Conservative Party has travelled in its desire to appease and please those who voted for Farage.
    I agree with you completely (you can share the smelling salts).

    Macron is an abject, awful, inappropriate, disaster of a quasi-effective President.

    He's also the only option on the ballot and needs to win. Anyone backing Le Pen is either ignorant or has very unpleasant politics, or both.
    Although I believe you once also voted for Farage, in some respects Le Pen is now more the French Farage than the French Nick Griffin, with economic policies closer to Labour than the Tories
    For the umpteenth time I never voted for Farage.

    I cast a protest vote to get rid of a failed Prime Minister and to expel Farage from the European Parliament.

    I have never and would never cast a vote to get Farage into Parliament, I voted to get him out of it.
    Smelling salts no longer needed. You voted for Farage. Your excuses are no doubt similar to those people in France who will use similar excuses for reasons to vote Le Pen. There are no excuses that excuse voting for fascists IMO.
  • YBarddCwscYBarddCwsc Posts: 7,172

    boulay said:

    mwadams said:

    Speaking of empires, or perhaps imperial nostalgia, I was asked about a year ago by a senior Labour figure what it would take for Britain to “recover some of the power and prestige we had when we were an Empire”.

    I did give him an answer, which largely involves confederating with Canada.

    Perhaps I should write a header.

    We should do that and move the joint capital and seat of Government to Toronto (just to annoy everyone). What's left of the Monarchy can be moved to their new official residence complex in Winnipeg and we can get on with things.
    MattW said:

    Taz said:

    Speaking of empires, or perhaps imperial nostalgia, I was asked about a year ago by a senior Labour figure what it would take for Britain to “recover some of the power and prestige we had when we were an Empire”.

    I did give him an answer, which largely involves confederating with Canada.

    Perhaps I should write a header.

    Why not ?

    Sounds an interesting concept.
    CANZUK?

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CANZUK
    CANZUK lacks an overriding strategic rationale and is geographically problematic.

    Anglo-Canada alone would be the third largest country in the world (after Russia and China), and would be 3rd on military spending and could probably close in on 3rd for GDP too.
    We’d have stop the blighters with the French language nonsense though!
    Part of the “deal” would be that Britain becomes more Canadian. We’d probably want to brush up on our French.
    This is not one of your best & brightest, @Gardenwalker

    The West of Canada resents the dominance of Ontario & Quebec, who almost always supply the Prime Minister.

    Quebec resents Anglophone Canada.

    Anglophone Canada resents the special privileges of Quebec. The Francophones in New Brunswick/Nouveau-Brunswick are terrified that Quebec will leave.

    Prince Edward Island resents being forgotten about. Newfoundland resents losing its status as an independent country and joining the Confederation in the 1949 referendum.

    The tiny Maritimes resent Quebec and Ontario and the West of Canada.

    And the First Nations resent the Canadian genocide.

    And everyone in Canada resents their wealthy Braggadocio of a neighbour to the South ... until they leave Canada and settle in greater LA or NYC or Chicago.

    Canada is more likely to fall to pieces than the YooKay.
  • TimTTimT Posts: 6,468

    boulay said:

    boulay said:

    Carnyx said:

    mwadams said:

    mwadams said:

    Leon said:

    Top ten empires judged by might, scale, impact, romance, prowess, victories, astonishingness, pivotality

    1. British
    2. Roman
    3. Ottoman
    4. Mongol
    5. American
    6. Chinese
    7. Portuguese
    8. Spanish
    9. Inca
    10. Persian

    I would like to have seen the Akkadian Empire in there, not because it was really that big but because it was the first.

    I would also suggest perhaps the Alexandrian Macedonian Empire for its scale (From Libya to India and the River Oxus in central Asia), the fact it beat the Empire you have at Number 10 and just general coolness.

    But of course it didn't outlast its founder.

    But otherwise I think the list is pretty good.
    If we have to stick to 10, I'd relegate the Incas interesting and locally violent though they were, and vote you Akkadians in at 9, with the Johnnie-come-lately Persians staying at 10.
    To add: my justification is that they are responsible for the development of writing which we have to admit has been fairly influential.
    TBF the Incans and Chinese might differ on what "writing" was.
    There is/was a very good documentary series on iPlayer about the history of writing.
    Do you recall any further details? Please.
    It was very interesting how it showed the way in which Egyptian hieroglyphics and Chinese writing developed the same way amongst other things. So symbols directly representing something such as wheat or water could be combined with another symbol to make another word because if you added the sounds together of the two symbol words they were the same as the on other word.

    It should still be there in the documentaries: history section.
    The Secret History of Writing?
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m000mtml

    Not on iplayer but try this:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tguoS1nQ4Kw
    Much obliged
    And I had trouble finding the Byblos Museum because it's actually called Alphabet Museum:

    http://www.jbail-byblos.gov.lb/baldati/project?la=en&id=19
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 32,521

    HYUFD said:

    kinabalu said:

    @yougov

    Who do Britons want to win the French presidential election?

    All Britons: Macron 37% / Le Pen 19%

    Con voters: Macron 24% / Le Pen 37%
    Lab voters: Macron 53% / Le Pen 8%

    There they are again, that 20%, same people - Trump, Hard Brexit, now LePen. Will also, if asked, be very keen on the idea of decanting refugees to Rwanda. What a horror show. Should be packed off to Rwanda themselves imo.
    Looking at those figures confirms for me why I left the Conservative Party. People who can endorse Le Pen have nothing in common with me. Shows the unfortunate distance and direction the Conservative Party has travelled in its desire to appease and please those who voted for Farage.
    I agree with you completely (you can share the smelling salts).

    Macron is an abject, awful, inappropriate, disaster of a quasi-effective President.

    He's also the only option on the ballot and needs to win. Anyone backing Le Pen is either ignorant or has very unpleasant politics, or both.
    Although I believe you once also voted for Farage, in some respects Le Pen is now more the French Farage than the French Nick Griffin, with economic policies closer to Labour than the Tories
    For the umpteenth time I never voted for Farage.

    I cast a protest vote to get rid of a failed Prime Minister and to expel Farage from the European Parliament.

    I have never and would never cast a vote to get Farage into Parliament, I voted to get him out of it.
    Smelling salts no longer needed. You voted for Farage. Your excuses are no doubt similar to those people in France who will use similar excuses for reasons to vote Le Pen. There are no excuses that excuse voting for fascists IMO.
    By accusing Farage of being a fascist you degrade your whole argument. But then when it comes to the EU you never had much of an argument anyway.
  • ohnotnowohnotnow Posts: 3,783
    Leon said:


    Wasn’t our very first true colony Bermuda? It is mentioned by Shakespeare. And we still have it

    500 years….

    Ireland?
  • YBarddCwscYBarddCwsc Posts: 7,172
    ohnotnow said:

    Leon said:


    Wasn’t our very first true colony Bermuda? It is mentioned by Shakespeare. And we still have it

    500 years….

    Ireland?
    Cymru
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,375

    ohnotnow said:

    Leon said:


    Wasn’t our very first true colony Bermuda? It is mentioned by Shakespeare. And we still have it

    500 years….

    Ireland?
    Cymru
    Northumbria, Rheged and Kernyw were even earlier.
  • JohnLilburneJohnLilburne Posts: 6,241

    ohnotnow said:

    Leon said:


    Wasn’t our very first true colony Bermuda? It is mentioned by Shakespeare. And we still have it

    500 years….

    Ireland?
    Cymru
    Actually I think Bernicia included parts of what is now Scotland
  • NorthofStokeNorthofStoke Posts: 1,758
    TimT said:

    Oryx's verified Russian losses of major equipment only 11 short of 3000 ...

    111 by my count. Appropriately, a Nelson?
    Correct, I misread. Now 101...
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,830

    Carnyx said:

    Re the Rwandan thing, has this been discussed? Pics of the tourist hostel HMG have presumably leased in a tearing hurry.

    I'm not entirely sure it will satisfy some, who will see it as pampering the illegals and refugees. And I'm not entirely sure that it can handle 30K people a year.

    https://twitter.com/theipaper/status/1514569538024751113
    https://inews.co.uk/news/politics/inside-rwanda-centre-asylum-seekers-uk-channel-migrants-1575640?ito=social_itw_theipaper&utm_medium=Social&utm_source=Twitter#Echobox=1649936491

    Red Cross policy wonk:

    Jon Featonby
    @jonfeatonby

    Replying to
    @sundersays

    What I’ve only just twigged about the UK plan is that it’s using inadmissibility powers, not the offshoring powers in the bill. They will judge that someone could & should have claimed asylum elsewhere. Then they deem that claim inadmissible - not the responsibility of the UK.

    https://twitter.com/jonfeatonby/status/1514682901081821195

    ===

    So, if I have understood then what happens to them after they touch down in Rwanda is Kegame's issue not UK's.
    Do the Rwandans understand that? They're not stupid, but did HMG come clean?
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 22,011

    boulay said:

    mwadams said:

    Speaking of empires, or perhaps imperial nostalgia, I was asked about a year ago by a senior Labour figure what it would take for Britain to “recover some of the power and prestige we had when we were an Empire”.

    I did give him an answer, which largely involves confederating with Canada.

    Perhaps I should write a header.

    We should do that and move the joint capital and seat of Government to Toronto (just to annoy everyone). What's left of the Monarchy can be moved to their new official residence complex in Winnipeg and we can get on with things.
    MattW said:

    Taz said:

    Speaking of empires, or perhaps imperial nostalgia, I was asked about a year ago by a senior Labour figure what it would take for Britain to “recover some of the power and prestige we had when we were an Empire”.

    I did give him an answer, which largely involves confederating with Canada.

    Perhaps I should write a header.

    Why not ?

    Sounds an interesting concept.
    CANZUK?

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CANZUK
    CANZUK lacks an overriding strategic rationale and is geographically problematic.

    Anglo-Canada alone would be the third largest country in the world (after Russia and China), and would be 3rd on military spending and could probably close in on 3rd for GDP too.
    We’d have stop the blighters with the French language nonsense though!
    Part of the “deal” would be that Britain becomes more Canadian. We’d probably want to brush up on our French.
    And become more apologetic.
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 22,011
    Off topic...

    I've been hankering after getting a free-standing fire pit. In a local garden centre today they had an offer where if you bought one you got a free case of a dozen bottles of beer*. So it had to be done.

    Now I need to get wood. (Stop sniggering at the back.)

    *Sam Smith's Organic Lager
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,714
    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    Re the Rwandan thing, has this been discussed? Pics of the tourist hostel HMG have presumably leased in a tearing hurry.

    I'm not entirely sure it will satisfy some, who will see it as pampering the illegals and refugees. And I'm not entirely sure that it can handle 30K people a year.

    https://twitter.com/theipaper/status/1514569538024751113
    https://inews.co.uk/news/politics/inside-rwanda-centre-asylum-seekers-uk-channel-migrants-1575640?ito=social_itw_theipaper&utm_medium=Social&utm_source=Twitter#Echobox=1649936491

    Red Cross policy wonk:

    Jon Featonby
    @jonfeatonby

    Replying to
    @sundersays

    What I’ve only just twigged about the UK plan is that it’s using inadmissibility powers, not the offshoring powers in the bill. They will judge that someone could & should have claimed asylum elsewhere. Then they deem that claim inadmissible - not the responsibility of the UK.

    https://twitter.com/jonfeatonby/status/1514682901081821195

    ===

    So, if I have understood then what happens to them after they touch down in Rwanda is Kegame's issue not UK's.
    Do the Rwandans understand that? They're not stupid, but did HMG come clean?
    Who knows. I think I read somewhere that Rwanda is desperate for young males as...erm, a lot of them leave.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,424
    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    Re the Rwandan thing, has this been discussed? Pics of the tourist hostel HMG have presumably leased in a tearing hurry.

    I'm not entirely sure it will satisfy some, who will see it as pampering the illegals and refugees. And I'm not entirely sure that it can handle 30K people a year.

    https://twitter.com/theipaper/status/1514569538024751113
    https://inews.co.uk/news/politics/inside-rwanda-centre-asylum-seekers-uk-channel-migrants-1575640?ito=social_itw_theipaper&utm_medium=Social&utm_source=Twitter#Echobox=1649936491

    Red Cross policy wonk:

    Jon Featonby
    @jonfeatonby

    Replying to
    @sundersays

    What I’ve only just twigged about the UK plan is that it’s using inadmissibility powers, not the offshoring powers in the bill. They will judge that someone could & should have claimed asylum elsewhere. Then they deem that claim inadmissible - not the responsibility of the UK.

    https://twitter.com/jonfeatonby/status/1514682901081821195

    ===

    So, if I have understood then what happens to them after they touch down in Rwanda is Kegame's issue not UK's.
    Do the Rwandans understand that? They're not stupid, but did HMG come clean?
    I should think it's long odds that they didn't!
  • Jim_MillerJim_Miller Posts: 2,998
    Most, let me repeat, most, of America's current territory was purchased.

    Louisiana purchase (roughly the middle third of the contiguous United States): from France.
    Florida: from Spain
    Mexican Secession (Texas, most of the southwest, California): from Mexico (The United States paid Mexico after defeating Mexico in the Mexican-American War.)
    Gadsden purchase (southern Arizona and a bit of New Mexico): from Mexico
    Alaska: from imperial Russia

    It is also true that some of those purchases were made with the threat of force, implicitly or explicitly, as well as a money offer.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,830

    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    Re the Rwandan thing, has this been discussed? Pics of the tourist hostel HMG have presumably leased in a tearing hurry.

    I'm not entirely sure it will satisfy some, who will see it as pampering the illegals and refugees. And I'm not entirely sure that it can handle 30K people a year.

    https://twitter.com/theipaper/status/1514569538024751113
    https://inews.co.uk/news/politics/inside-rwanda-centre-asylum-seekers-uk-channel-migrants-1575640?ito=social_itw_theipaper&utm_medium=Social&utm_source=Twitter#Echobox=1649936491

    Red Cross policy wonk:

    Jon Featonby
    @jonfeatonby

    Replying to
    @sundersays

    What I’ve only just twigged about the UK plan is that it’s using inadmissibility powers, not the offshoring powers in the bill. They will judge that someone could & should have claimed asylum elsewhere. Then they deem that claim inadmissible - not the responsibility of the UK.

    https://twitter.com/jonfeatonby/status/1514682901081821195

    ===

    So, if I have understood then what happens to them after they touch down in Rwanda is Kegame's issue not UK's.
    Do the Rwandans understand that? They're not stupid, but did HMG come clean?
    Who knows. I think I read somewhere that Rwanda is desperate for young males as...erm, a lot of them leave.

    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    Re the Rwandan thing, has this been discussed? Pics of the tourist hostel HMG have presumably leased in a tearing hurry.

    I'm not entirely sure it will satisfy some, who will see it as pampering the illegals and refugees. And I'm not entirely sure that it can handle 30K people a year.

    https://twitter.com/theipaper/status/1514569538024751113
    https://inews.co.uk/news/politics/inside-rwanda-centre-asylum-seekers-uk-channel-migrants-1575640?ito=social_itw_theipaper&utm_medium=Social&utm_source=Twitter#Echobox=1649936491

    Red Cross policy wonk:

    Jon Featonby
    @jonfeatonby

    Replying to
    @sundersays

    What I’ve only just twigged about the UK plan is that it’s using inadmissibility powers, not the offshoring powers in the bill. They will judge that someone could & should have claimed asylum elsewhere. Then they deem that claim inadmissible - not the responsibility of the UK.

    https://twitter.com/jonfeatonby/status/1514682901081821195

    ===

    So, if I have understood then what happens to them after they touch down in Rwanda is Kegame's issue not UK's.
    Do the Rwandans understand that? They're not stupid, but did HMG come clean?
    I should think it's long odds that they didn't!
    The original tweet is part of an interesting discussio:

    https://twitter.com/jonfeatonby/status/1514682901081821195
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,134

    boulay said:

    mwadams said:

    Speaking of empires, or perhaps imperial nostalgia, I was asked about a year ago by a senior Labour figure what it would take for Britain to “recover some of the power and prestige we had when we were an Empire”.

    I did give him an answer, which largely involves confederating with Canada.

    Perhaps I should write a header.

    We should do that and move the joint capital and seat of Government to Toronto (just to annoy everyone). What's left of the Monarchy can be moved to their new official residence complex in Winnipeg and we can get on with things.
    MattW said:

    Taz said:

    Speaking of empires, or perhaps imperial nostalgia, I was asked about a year ago by a senior Labour figure what it would take for Britain to “recover some of the power and prestige we had when we were an Empire”.

    I did give him an answer, which largely involves confederating with Canada.

    Perhaps I should write a header.

    Why not ?

    Sounds an interesting concept.
    CANZUK?

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CANZUK
    CANZUK lacks an overriding strategic rationale and is geographically problematic.

    Anglo-Canada alone would be the third largest country in the world (after Russia and China), and would be 3rd on military spending and could probably close in on 3rd for GDP too.
    We’d have stop the blighters with the French language nonsense though!
    Part of the “deal” would be that Britain becomes more Canadian. We’d probably want to brush up on our French.
    This is not one of your best & brightest, @Gardenwalker

    The West of Canada resents the dominance of Ontario & Quebec, who almost always supply the Prime Minister.

    Quebec resents Anglophone Canada.

    Anglophone Canada resents the special privileges of Quebec. The Francophones in New Brunswick/Nouveau-Brunswick are terrified that Quebec will leave.

    Prince Edward Island resents being forgotten about. Newfoundland resents losing its status as an independent country and joining the Confederation in the 1949 referendum.

    The tiny Maritimes resent Quebec and Ontario and the West of Canada.

    And the First Nations resent the Canadian genocide.

    And everyone in Canada resents their wealthy Braggadocio of a neighbour to the South ... until they leave Canada and settle in greater LA or NYC or Chicago.

    Canada is more likely to fall to pieces than the YooKay.
    Excellent dental health though. It's usual for a Canadian child to be fitted with braces and this pays dividends with straight teeth in later life. And that's not all. Daily flossing is not the exception in Canada, it's the rule.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,830

    Most, let me repeat, most, of America's current territory was purchased.

    Louisiana purchase (roughly the middle third of the contiguous United States): from France.
    Florida: from Spain
    Mexican Secession (Texas, most of the southwest, California): from Mexico (The United States paid Mexico after defeating Mexico in the Mexican-American War.)
    Gadsden purchase (southern Arizona and a bit of New Mexico): from Mexico
    Alaska: from imperial Russia

    It is also true that some of those purchases were made with the threat of force, implicitly or explicitly, as well as a money offer.

    You forgot some of the First Nations lands, with beads, blankets, and bullshit lies.
  • ohnotnowohnotnow Posts: 3,783
    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    Re the Rwandan thing, has this been discussed? Pics of the tourist hostel HMG have presumably leased in a tearing hurry.

    I'm not entirely sure it will satisfy some, who will see it as pampering the illegals and refugees. And I'm not entirely sure that it can handle 30K people a year.

    https://twitter.com/theipaper/status/1514569538024751113
    https://inews.co.uk/news/politics/inside-rwanda-centre-asylum-seekers-uk-channel-migrants-1575640?ito=social_itw_theipaper&utm_medium=Social&utm_source=Twitter#Echobox=1649936491

    Red Cross policy wonk:

    Jon Featonby
    @jonfeatonby

    Replying to
    @sundersays

    What I’ve only just twigged about the UK plan is that it’s using inadmissibility powers, not the offshoring powers in the bill. They will judge that someone could & should have claimed asylum elsewhere. Then they deem that claim inadmissible - not the responsibility of the UK.

    https://twitter.com/jonfeatonby/status/1514682901081821195

    ===

    So, if I have understood then what happens to them after they touch down in Rwanda is Kegame's issue not UK's.
    Do the Rwandans understand that? They're not stupid, but did HMG come clean?
    There was a Rwandan minister (I think) interviewed on the PM programme on R4 yesterday - she seemed pretty clear what they had signed up for. (She actually came across as very articulate and made me think 'why aren't our ministers on top of their brief like this').
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,277
    Still hiking the Chilterns. In the majestic Ashridge Estate. And yet I learn that “75-80% of the ash trees in the UK will die in the next decade” - due to ash dieback

    This is horrendous. Why is the entire world turning to shit?
  • SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 17,559

    Disgracefully, nobody has mentioned the NZ Empire which commenced formally in 1901 with control of Niue and the Cook Islands and, with various comings and goings, continues to this day.

    The island of Tokelau (population 1500) is currently administrated by Ross Ardern, who happens to be Jacinda’s father.

    So Jacinda's daddy is Enzedian version Dr. Hunter S. Thompson?

    Or rather what HST aspired to be: Governor of American Samoa, or rather the Antipodean equivalent?
  • I’m gutted. The Little Yellow Train is closed.

    On the slightly brighter side, there is a replacement bus service (that only costs a euro) that means I can continue with the route I’ve (barely!) planned, just without quite the views I was expecting.

    Also, where I am now in Vernet Les Bains is stunning. It’s in the foothills of the Canigou mountain. Rudyard Kipling fell in love with the mountain when staying here 111 years ago. He wrote the short story “Why Snow Falls at Vernet”, which mocks the English for always talking about the weather. And he wrote this letter to the Club Alpin where he describes it as a “magician among mountains”.

    I think I’ll cope with the disappointment somehow! And I’ll definitely be back some day to catch the little train.

  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 21,298
    ohnotnow said:

    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    Re the Rwandan thing, has this been discussed? Pics of the tourist hostel HMG have presumably leased in a tearing hurry.

    I'm not entirely sure it will satisfy some, who will see it as pampering the illegals and refugees. And I'm not entirely sure that it can handle 30K people a year.

    https://twitter.com/theipaper/status/1514569538024751113
    https://inews.co.uk/news/politics/inside-rwanda-centre-asylum-seekers-uk-channel-migrants-1575640?ito=social_itw_theipaper&utm_medium=Social&utm_source=Twitter#Echobox=1649936491

    Red Cross policy wonk:

    Jon Featonby
    @jonfeatonby

    Replying to
    @sundersays

    What I’ve only just twigged about the UK plan is that it’s using inadmissibility powers, not the offshoring powers in the bill. They will judge that someone could & should have claimed asylum elsewhere. Then they deem that claim inadmissible - not the responsibility of the UK.

    https://twitter.com/jonfeatonby/status/1514682901081821195

    ===

    So, if I have understood then what happens to them after they touch down in Rwanda is Kegame's issue not UK's.
    Do the Rwandans understand that? They're not stupid, but did HMG come clean?
    There was a Rwandan minister (I think) interviewed on the PM programme on R4 yesterday - she seemed pretty clear what they had signed up for. (She actually came across as very articulate and made me think 'why aren't our ministers on top of their brief like this').
    If you go back and look at interviews etc even with New Labour era ministers, the drop in “quality” is profound.

    Whether this is generational decline, or Boris’s tendency to deliberately appoint cretins, is not clear.
  • YBarddCwscYBarddCwsc Posts: 7,172
    kinabalu said:

    boulay said:

    mwadams said:

    Speaking of empires, or perhaps imperial nostalgia, I was asked about a year ago by a senior Labour figure what it would take for Britain to “recover some of the power and prestige we had when we were an Empire”.

    I did give him an answer, which largely involves confederating with Canada.

    Perhaps I should write a header.

    We should do that and move the joint capital and seat of Government to Toronto (just to annoy everyone). What's left of the Monarchy can be moved to their new official residence complex in Winnipeg and we can get on with things.
    MattW said:

    Taz said:

    Speaking of empires, or perhaps imperial nostalgia, I was asked about a year ago by a senior Labour figure what it would take for Britain to “recover some of the power and prestige we had when we were an Empire”.

    I did give him an answer, which largely involves confederating with Canada.

    Perhaps I should write a header.

    Why not ?

    Sounds an interesting concept.
    CANZUK?

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CANZUK
    CANZUK lacks an overriding strategic rationale and is geographically problematic.

    Anglo-Canada alone would be the third largest country in the world (after Russia and China), and would be 3rd on military spending and could probably close in on 3rd for GDP too.
    We’d have stop the blighters with the French language nonsense though!
    Part of the “deal” would be that Britain becomes more Canadian. We’d probably want to brush up on our French.
    This is not one of your best & brightest, @Gardenwalker

    The West of Canada resents the dominance of Ontario & Quebec, who almost always supply the Prime Minister.

    Quebec resents Anglophone Canada.

    Anglophone Canada resents the special privileges of Quebec. The Francophones in New Brunswick/Nouveau-Brunswick are terrified that Quebec will leave.

    Prince Edward Island resents being forgotten about. Newfoundland resents losing its status as an independent country and joining the Confederation in the 1949 referendum.

    The tiny Maritimes resent Quebec and Ontario and the West of Canada.

    And the First Nations resent the Canadian genocide.

    And everyone in Canada resents their wealthy Braggadocio of a neighbour to the South ... until they leave Canada and settle in greater LA or NYC or Chicago.

    Canada is more likely to fall to pieces than the YooKay.
    Excellent dental health though. It's usual for a Canadian child to be fitted with braces and this pays dividends with straight teeth in later life. And that's not all. Daily flossing is not the exception in Canada, it's the rule.
    Canada is in love with string dipped in waxy mint :)

    That is so ... sweetly Canadien.

    The Ugly American exults in bleeding gums and rotting organic matter between his teeth.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,714
    Incredibly, Russia is threatening to declare war on Ukraine.

  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,523
    ohnotnow said:



    There was a Rwandan minister (I think) interviewed on the PM programme on R4 yesterday - she seemed pretty clear what they had signed up for. (She actually came across as very articulate and made me think 'why aren't our ministers on top of their brief like this').

    Yes, that's what I thought (and said on the last thread) - poised, fluent, and confident. Yolande Nkole or a name like that - I've been trying to google her without success, but she sounded a lot more on top of the issue than Priti Patel's comments from last year broadcast on the same programme.

    That doesn't mean that I approve of the scheme, but I think the Rwandans are clear what they are getting out of it. In return for taking a small number of asylum-seekers over 5 years and processing their applications under Rwandan law, they are getting a lot of money.

    Haaretz (an Israeli paper that I get summaries from) says the Israeli experiment with Rwanda on similar terms collapsed, because in practice the Rwandans were not willing to provide asylum, so the migrants struggled along on the initial grant until the money ran out, and then had to depend on friends, sleep on the street or try to find their way back by illegal means. They didn't really blame the Rwandans - they did not allege any corruption or hostility - but the flaw seems to have been partly that Rwandan asylum isn't any easier to get than Israeli (or British?) asylum, and partly that no long-term plan existed, so Israel was essentially dumping ineligible applicants on Rwanda, with enough money to survive for a couple of years, after which they were nobody's problem. Israel has now ended the arrangement as it became increasingly seen as short-sighted and unfair.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,577

    Incredibly, Russia is threatening to declare war on Ukraine.

    Yes, that is hilarious, but AIUI there is a practical reason Russia may need to. If they declare war, as opposes to an SMO, they have much more latitude in terms of conscription. If they declare 'war', take it as a sign that their manpower crunch is worse than expected.
  • BigRichBigRich Posts: 3,492

    Disgracefully, nobody has mentioned the NZ Empire which commenced formally in 1901 with control of Niue and the Cook Islands and, with various comings and goings, continues to this day.

    The island of Tokelau (population 1500) is currently administrated by Ross Ardern, who happens to be Jacinda’s father.

    Did he get appointed while Jacinda has been PM? or was he in post before she was?

  • kamskikamski Posts: 5,190
    Caesar's conquest of Gaul supposedly resulted in a million killed, and a million enslaved, which must have been quite a high proportion of the population at the time. So I guess the Roman empire must go down as one of the most evil in history.
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 21,298
    edited April 2022
    BigRich said:

    Disgracefully, nobody has mentioned the NZ Empire which commenced formally in 1901 with control of Niue and the Cook Islands and, with various comings and goings, continues to this day.

    The island of Tokelau (population 1500) is currently administrated by Ross Ardern, who happens to be Jacinda’s father.

    Did he get appointed while Jacinda has been PM? or was he in post before she was?

    He was in post before she was, I think.
    He’s a former senior policeman.

    And a Mormon.
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 17,217

    ohnotnow said:



    There was a Rwandan minister (I think) interviewed on the PM programme on R4 yesterday - she seemed pretty clear what they had signed up for. (She actually came across as very articulate and made me think 'why aren't our ministers on top of their brief like this').

    Yes, that's what I thought (and said on the last thread) - poised, fluent, and confident. Yolande Nkole or a name like that - I've been trying to google her without success, but she sounded a lot more on top of the issue than Priti Patel's comments from last year broadcast on the same programme.

    That doesn't mean that I approve of the scheme, but I think the Rwandans are clear what they are getting out of it. In return for taking a small number of asylum-seekers over 5 years and processing their applications under Rwandan law, they are getting a lot of money.

    Haaretz (an Israeli paper that I get summaries from) says the Israeli experiment with Rwanda on similar terms collapsed, because in practice the Rwandans were not willing to provide asylum, so the migrants struggled along on the initial grant until the money ran out, and then had to depend on friends, sleep on the street or try to find their way back by illegal means. They didn't really blame the Rwandans - they did not allege any corruption or hostility - but the flaw seems to have been partly that Rwandan asylum isn't any easier to get than Israeli (or British?) asylum, and partly that no long-term plan existed, so Israel was essentially dumping ineligible applicants on Rwanda, with enough money to survive for a couple of years, after which they were nobody's problem. Israel has now ended the arrangement as it became increasingly seen as short-sighted and unfair.
    We can't exclude the possibility that Johnson and Patel don't fully understand the deal they have signed up for, and they're set to get rather less for their money than they think.

    What is Britain going to do if/when we exhaust Rwandan capacity?
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 21,298
    If Russia “declare war” they could formally start conscription. It may also open up the opportunity (at least in deranged Russian eyes) to chemical weapons and use of tactical nuke strikes.

    It’s not obvious what NATO’s response to such provocations would be.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,640

    Incredibly, Russia is threatening to declare war on Ukraine.

    When was the last time a war was officially declared? And why has formal declaration fallen out of favour?
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,175
    edited April 2022

    Incredibly, Russia is threatening to declare war on Ukraine.

    Yes, that is hilarious, but AIUI there is a practical reason Russia may need to. If they declare war, as opposes to an SMO, they have much more latitude in terms of conscription. If they declare 'war', take it as a sign that their manpower crunch is worse than expected.
    I was going to say that the sinking of the Moskva could be their pretext for war that they were after.

    But then they're denying that it was Ukraine that sank it, so that doesn't work.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,577
    Russian claims about the Ukrainian kit they have destroyed is ... interesting.

    "Russian forces have eliminated 132 aircraft, 105 helicopters, 456 unmanned aerial vehicles, 2,213 tanks and other armored vehicles and 249 multiple rocket launchers since the beginning of their special military operation in Ukraine,"

    https://tass.com/defense/1438181

    Oryx has total losses of *all* Ukrainian kit at 789.

    Whilst I know it's likely that fewer Ukrainian losses are recorded in open-source manners, if Russian troops can record themselves raping kids, I'm sure they'll be recording their victories over armour.

    If this is what Putin's being told, then it might explain his anger against the west. "We must have destroyed Ukraine's kit several times over! It's the west's kit we're destroying!"
  • RogerRoger Posts: 19,908
    TimT said:

    boulay said:

    boulay said:

    Carnyx said:

    mwadams said:

    mwadams said:

    Leon said:

    Top ten empires judged by might, scale, impact, romance, prowess, victories, astonishingness, pivotality

    1. British
    2. Roman
    3. Ottoman
    4. Mongol
    5. American
    6. Chinese
    7. Portuguese
    8. Spanish
    9. Inca
    10. Persian

    I would like to have seen the Akkadian Empire in there, not because it was really that big but because it was the first.

    I would also suggest perhaps the Alexandrian Macedonian Empire for its scale (From Libya to India and the River Oxus in central Asia), the fact it beat the Empire you have at Number 10 and just general coolness.

    But of course it didn't outlast its founder.

    But otherwise I think the list is pretty good.
    If we have to stick to 10, I'd relegate the Incas interesting and locally violent though they were, and vote you Akkadians in at 9, with the Johnnie-come-lately Persians staying at 10.
    To add: my justification is that they are responsible for the development of writing which we have to admit has been fairly influential.
    TBF the Incans and Chinese might differ on what "writing" was.
    There is/was a very good documentary series on iPlayer about the history of writing.
    Do you recall any further details? Please.
    It was very interesting how it showed the way in which Egyptian hieroglyphics and Chinese writing developed the same way amongst other things. So symbols directly representing something such as wheat or water could be combined with another symbol to make another word because if you added the sounds together of the two symbol words they were the same as the on other word.

    It should still be there in the documentaries: history section.
    One of my more interesting forays in Lebanon was to the museum at Biblos.
    Did you visit the beach front restaurant cafe there with the photos of their famous guests over the decades? From Errol Flynn and Brigitte Bardot to every French Prime Minister and leading politician since the 30's. An extraordinary place. Particularly if you've driven out of a a still bullet holed Beirut
This discussion has been closed.