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For cabinet ministers this could be a career-defining issue – politicalbetting.com

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  • Daveyboy1961Daveyboy1961 Posts: 3,883
    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    I would like to thank the Tories for delivering a Labour Government.

    A labour governement getting into power is about the only thing that would make me hold my nose and vote tory, same with many others. The one thing you can guarantee with a labour government if you are working and private sector is you will be poorer at the end of it than you were at the beginning.
    oh?, do you think we will be richer when this mob are kicked out? They've got a long way to catch up with June 2019, or even June 2010!
    Well I am richer now than in the beginning of this governement. Can't say that has ever happened under labour. So are lots of people I know.
    oh really?
    Here is a clue....no one in the general populace gives a damn about gdp, they care about how many pounds are in their pocket....gdp per capita and median gdp per capita would be a far better measure.

    Since 2000 our nations gdp has trended upwards but precious little of that ended up in the pockets of the bottom 70% of the population. Going by GDP we became richer as a nation....gdp per capita not so much
    So at least 70% of the electorate are worse off since the tories have been in?
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,714

    Snap YouGov poll on Partygate fines:

    - 57% say Johnson should quit
    - 57% say Sunak should quit
    - 75% said Johnson "knowingly lied about breaching Covid-19 rules"

    25% didn't think he lied? Jeez...
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 17,217

    Snap YouGov poll on Partygate fines:

    - 57% say Johnson should quit
    - 57% say Sunak should quit
    - 75% said Johnson "knowingly lied about breaching Covid-19 rules"

    That 15-20 percent of the population, who think that Boris knowingly lied but that isn't a sacking offence... What's going on there?

    Maybe I'm rapidly aging out of middle age, but if he lies about this, how can you trust him about anything?
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,083

    Snap YouGov poll on Partygate fines:

    - 57% say Johnson should quit
    - 57% say Sunak should quit
    - 75% said Johnson "knowingly lied about breaching Covid-19 rules"

    That 15-20 percent of the population, who think that Boris knowingly lied but that isn't a sacking offence... What's going on there?
    It's the tribal Tory floor.
  • RogerRoger Posts: 19,908
    TimT said:

    Pagan2 said:

    TimT said:

    rpjs said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Farooq said:

    The far right: Le Pen deserves to win because Macron is too focused on the Ukraine war.
    Also the far right: Boris shouldn't be replaced because he is too focused on the Ukraine war.

    You are mistaking the far right with the tory party, the current iteration couldn't be described as anything other than centre left giving their tax and spend policies
    Read your history: fascists are always big on tax and spend. Autobahns, the E.U.R., draining the Pontine marshes etc.
    You missed the Wall.
    The conservative party much as I despise them aren't fascists however. If you take the tack they because they are going large on tax and spend that they are fascists then so must the labour party be.

    Labelling those you dislike politically as fascist is facile

    (sorry was meant to be a reply to rpjs)
    Yeah, my dig was aimed at one person alone. Well, and the numbskulls who believe him and the evil c8nts who should know better and the spineless gits who don't speak up.
    Has someone stolen your identity? You were always such an oasis of civility
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,660

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    I would like to thank the Tories for delivering a Labour Government.

    A labour governement getting into power is about the only thing that would make me hold my nose and vote tory, same with many others. The one thing you can guarantee with a labour government if you are working and private sector is you will be poorer at the end of it than you were at the beginning.
    oh?, do you think we will be richer when this mob are kicked out? They've got a long way to catch up with June 2019, or even June 2010!
    Well I am richer now than in the beginning of this governement. Can't say that has ever happened under labour. So are lots of people I know.
    oh really?
    Here is a clue....no one in the general populace gives a damn about gdp, they care about how many pounds are in their pocket....gdp per capita and median gdp per capita would be a far better measure.

    Since 2000 our nations gdp has trended upwards but precious little of that ended up in the pockets of the bottom 70% of the population. Going by GDP we became richer as a nation....gdp per capita not so much
    So at least 70% of the electorate are worse off since the tories have been in?
    Yeah but Pagan2 Is better off so thats all that matters to him
  • something quite ominous about the silence from Rishi Sunak and his aides

    https://twitter.com/PickardJE/status/1513937974148448266
  • FishingFishing Posts: 5,036

    rpjs said:

    rpjs said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Farooq said:

    The far right: Le Pen deserves to win because Macron is too focused on the Ukraine war.
    Also the far right: Boris shouldn't be replaced because he is too focused on the Ukraine war.

    You are mistaking the far right with the tory party, the current iteration couldn't be described as anything other than centre left giving their tax and spend policies
    Read your history: fascists are always big on tax and spend. Autobahns, the E.U.R., draining the Pontine marshes etc.
    Like Stalin's Five Year Plans then?
    Indeed: totalitarians on the left tend to have much in common with totalitarians on the right.
    Well exactly, but your inference was that the Conservative party are "facists"? They aren't. Or even "far-right". In the same way even Corbyn wasn't "far-left" in comparison to many European left-wing parties.
    I think far left is a reasonable description of Corbyn. Being slightly more moderate than Karl Marx and Engels doesn't exactly let him off the hook.
    He and McDonnell ran disingenuously in 2019 on policies just about moderate enough that there was a sliver of a chance that the electorate would be fooled. But they'd have gone the full Commie soon enough once elected, if they had a large enough majority.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,249
    See my earlier post - it will take several days to show up in the polls
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,310
    DavidL said:

    It is mildly annoying how the media simply state that there has been wrongdoing as a fact now. The FPN is an offer to accept a fine. If it is not taken up the matter has to go to court and guilt or innocence is then determined. The view of the Met is simply that.

    Yes, I've noticed that. The New Statesman said this - "It’s now official. For the first time a British prime minister has been found to have committed a criminal act while in office…"

    This is simply incorrect. What the FPN says is that the police reasonably believe that a person has breached regulations and that the person can settle the matter by paying a fine. But if they do not, then the CPS must decide to start a criminal prosecution and the matter goes to the magistrates court for a decision. Only once they have decided that a breach has occurred can it be said that the PM has "been found to have committed a criminal act".

    At the risk of being really tiresomely pedantic, when fines were challenged before, the CPS found that in a very large number of cases, the police had simply got either the law or facts wrong.

    We should not rush to assume that the police have necessarily got matters right this time either. They may have. Or they may not. They were terribly confused over the difference between law and guidelines when the regulations first came out. And there are quite a few recent examples of them getting this wrong in cases other than the Covid regulations.

    So for example - in summer 2020 the regulation stated that you had to have a reasonable excuse to be outside your home. Being at work was such a reasonable excuse.

    Let's take the PM's birthday: he is at work. He has a reasonable excuse to be there.

    His wife turns up with a cake. She is not going to work. She appears to have no reasonable excuse. Ah - but is the room where she meets with him in his office or in a room which is part of their home?

    His Chancellor who works at another office also turn up. He knows it's the PM's birthday and also has work things to discuss with him. Does he have a reasonable excuse or not for being there?

    Without knowing the precise facts of these events / parties / meetings and the relevant regulations applicable at the time, how is it possible to tell whether or not the regulations were breached?
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 9,871

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    I would like to thank the Tories for delivering a Labour Government.

    A labour governement getting into power is about the only thing that would make me hold my nose and vote tory, same with many others. The one thing you can guarantee with a labour government if you are working and private sector is you will be poorer at the end of it than you were at the beginning.
    oh?, do you think we will be richer when this mob are kicked out? They've got a long way to catch up with June 2019, or even June 2010!
    Well I am richer now than in the beginning of this governement. Can't say that has ever happened under labour. So are lots of people I know.
    oh really?
    Here is a clue....no one in the general populace gives a damn about gdp, they care about how many pounds are in their pocket....gdp per capita and median gdp per capita would be a far better measure.

    Since 2000 our nations gdp has trended upwards but precious little of that ended up in the pockets of the bottom 70% of the population. Going by GDP we became richer as a nation....gdp per capita not so much
    Could it be that you are out of touch?
    Nope here are some figures with sources....note rounded them to 1000's to give easier sums


    GDP 1997 1,482,000,000
    GDP 2019 2,225,000,000
    source https://www.statista.com/statistics/281744/gdp-of-the-united-kingdom/

    Populations 1997 58,307,000
    Population 2019 67,530,000
    source https://www.macrotrends.net/countries/GBR/united-kingdom/population

    GDP per capita 1997 = 1,482,000,000 / 58,307,000 = 25,417
    GDP per capita 2019 = 2,225,000,000 / 67,530,000 = 32,948

    Adjust for inflation
    calculator source
    https://www.bankofengland.co.uk/monetary-policy/inflation/inflation-calculator

    GDP per capita 1997 inflation adjusted to 2019= 46,608
    GDP per capita 2019 = 32,948
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,401
    The first ten years of New Labour raised incomes at the bottom deciles at a rate no Tory government has even approached.
  • ozymandiasozymandias Posts: 1,503
    dixiedean said:

    The first ten years of New Labour raised incomes at the bottom deciles at a rate no Tory government has even approached.

    By spunking loads of cash we didn't actually have.
  • The most senior lawmaker in UK has now been convicted of breaking the law and yet remains in office.

    No wonder Putin thinks the West has become decadent.

    Should Boris go? Yes. Our system of government should always be more important than the people in it.

    However I don’t give a stuff what Putin may or may not think. None of us should link the two things. If Boris goes then we end up with Truss or Wallace, either of whom will pursue the same policy on Ukraine.
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,454
    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    I would like to thank the Tories for delivering a Labour Government.

    A labour governement getting into power is about the only thing that would make me hold my nose and vote tory, same with many others. The one thing you can guarantee with a labour government if you are working and private sector is you will be poorer at the end of it than you were at the beginning.
    oh?, do you think we will be richer when this mob are kicked out? They've got a long way to catch up with June 2019, or even June 2010!
    Well I am richer now than in the beginning of this governement. Can't say that has ever happened under labour. So are lots of people I know.
    oh really?
    Here is a clue....no one in the general populace gives a damn about gdp, they care about how many pounds are in their pocket....gdp per capita and median gdp per capita would be a far better measure.

    Since 2000 our nations gdp has trended upwards but precious little of that ended up in the pockets of the bottom 70% of the population. Going by GDP we became richer as a nation....gdp per capita not so much
    Could it be that you are out of touch?
    Nope here are some figures with sources....note rounded them to 1000's to give easier sums


    GDP 1997 1,482,000,000
    GDP 2019 2,225,000,000
    source https://www.statista.com/statistics/281744/gdp-of-the-united-kingdom/

    Populations 1997 58,307,000
    Population 2019 67,530,000
    source https://www.macrotrends.net/countries/GBR/united-kingdom/population

    GDP per capita 1997 = 1,482,000,000 / 58,307,000 = 25,417
    GDP per capita 2019 = 2,225,000,000 / 67,530,000 = 32,948

    Adjust for inflation
    calculator source
    https://www.bankofengland.co.uk/monetary-policy/inflation/inflation-calculator

    GDP per capita 1997 inflation adjusted to 2019= 46,608
    GDP per capita 2019 = 32,948
    You said you and everyone you know is better off. I queried wether it was possible that you might be in an out of touch bubble, but perhaps not.
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 9,871

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    I would like to thank the Tories for delivering a Labour Government.

    A labour governement getting into power is about the only thing that would make me hold my nose and vote tory, same with many others. The one thing you can guarantee with a labour government if you are working and private sector is you will be poorer at the end of it than you were at the beginning.
    oh?, do you think we will be richer when this mob are kicked out? They've got a long way to catch up with June 2019, or even June 2010!
    Well I am richer now than in the beginning of this governement. Can't say that has ever happened under labour. So are lots of people I know.
    oh really?
    Here is a clue....no one in the general populace gives a damn about gdp, they care about how many pounds are in their pocket....gdp per capita and median gdp per capita would be a far better measure.

    Since 2000 our nations gdp has trended upwards but precious little of that ended up in the pockets of the bottom 70% of the population. Going by GDP we became richer as a nation....gdp per capita not so much
    So at least 70% of the electorate are worse off since the tories have been in?
    Yeah but Pagan2 Is better off so thats all that matters to him
    I want everyone to be better off but its true that under governements whether new labour or tories the bottom 6 or 7 deciles have seen stagnating wages and falling living standards. The last couple of years this has started to change
  • SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 17,559
    Another amazingly prescient take on No. 10 lawbreaking -

    I Fought the Law and the Law Won
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OgtQj8O92eI
  • eekeek Posts: 28,368

    something quite ominous about the silence from Rishi Sunak and his aides

    https://twitter.com/PickardJE/status/1513937974148448266

    Weren't they off to California - given that he was in Darlo yesterday they may be flying now.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,249

    rpjs said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Farooq said:

    The far right: Le Pen deserves to win because Macron is too focused on the Ukraine war.
    Also the far right: Boris shouldn't be replaced because he is too focused on the Ukraine war.

    You are mistaking the far right with the tory party, the current iteration couldn't be described as anything other than centre left giving their tax and spend policies
    Read your history: fascists are always big on tax and spend. Autobahns, the E.U.R., draining the Pontine marshes etc.
    Like Stalin's Five Year Plans then?
    Goering specifically copied the 5 year plan ideas - see the 4 year plans.

    As Tolkien observed, Nazism was a combination of the worst aspects of Kaiserism and Bolshevism.
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,454
    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    I would like to thank the Tories for delivering a Labour Government.

    A labour governement getting into power is about the only thing that would make me hold my nose and vote tory, same with many others. The one thing you can guarantee with a labour government if you are working and private sector is you will be poorer at the end of it than you were at the beginning.
    oh?, do you think we will be richer when this mob are kicked out? They've got a long way to catch up with June 2019, or even June 2010!
    Well I am richer now than in the beginning of this governement. Can't say that has ever happened under labour. So are lots of people I know.
    oh really?
    Here is a clue....no one in the general populace gives a damn about gdp, they care about how many pounds are in their pocket....gdp per capita and median gdp per capita would be a far better measure.

    Since 2000 our nations gdp has trended upwards but precious little of that ended up in the pockets of the bottom 70% of the population. Going by GDP we became richer as a nation....gdp per capita not so much
    So at least 70% of the electorate are worse off since the tories have been in?
    Yeah but Pagan2 Is better off so thats all that matters to him
    I want everyone to be better off but its true that under governements whether new labour or tories the bottom 6 or 7 deciles have seen stagnating wages and falling living standards. The last couple of years this has started to change
    Are wages rising faster than inflation?
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,454
    eek said:

    something quite ominous about the silence from Rishi Sunak and his aides

    https://twitter.com/PickardJE/status/1513937974148448266

    Weren't they off to California - given that he was in Darlo yesterday they may be flying now.
    Can you fly from Darlo to Cali?
  • moonshinemoonshine Posts: 5,747

    something quite ominous about the silence from Rishi Sunak and his aides

    https://twitter.com/PickardJE/status/1513937974148448266

    Not so…

    https://twitter.com/SimonClarkeMP/status/1513931783649304585?s=20&t=_Vha1quQ2dOpI3TMcnbtZw

    Chief Sec to Treasury -
    The PM and Chancellor have my full support. Their efforts during the pandemic have ensured the UK is now free of restrictions and avoided economic catastrophe. I for one am grateful to them for everything they have done for our country.
    The PM has apologised and accepted the Police’s decision today. He has accepted Sue Gray’s recommendations in full and instituted a comprehensive programme of reform in No 10. It’s time to get on with the job of governing at a crucial time at home and abroad.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,401

    dixiedean said:

    The first ten years of New Labour raised incomes at the bottom deciles at a rate no Tory government has even approached.

    By spunking loads of cash we didn't actually have.
    As opposed to doing the same for the better off?
    We can all claim money not spent on us is unaffordable. But it simply isn't true that the lower paid in the private sector were worse off.
  • ozymandiasozymandias Posts: 1,503

    rpjs said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Farooq said:

    The far right: Le Pen deserves to win because Macron is too focused on the Ukraine war.
    Also the far right: Boris shouldn't be replaced because he is too focused on the Ukraine war.

    You are mistaking the far right with the tory party, the current iteration couldn't be described as anything other than centre left giving their tax and spend policies
    Read your history: fascists are always big on tax and spend. Autobahns, the E.U.R., draining the Pontine marshes etc.
    Like Stalin's Five Year Plans then?
    Goering specifically copied the 5 year plan ideas - see the 4 year plans.

    As Tolkien observed, Nazism was a combination of the worst aspects of Kaiserism and Bolshevism.
    I agree, however the lazy use of the word "facist" is a pet peeve. Especially as no one can really adequately define it. Self-declared "Facist" Italy yes. But that's as far as it goes.
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 9,871

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    I would like to thank the Tories for delivering a Labour Government.

    A labour governement getting into power is about the only thing that would make me hold my nose and vote tory, same with many others. The one thing you can guarantee with a labour government if you are working and private sector is you will be poorer at the end of it than you were at the beginning.
    oh?, do you think we will be richer when this mob are kicked out? They've got a long way to catch up with June 2019, or even June 2010!
    Well I am richer now than in the beginning of this governement. Can't say that has ever happened under labour. So are lots of people I know.
    oh really?
    Here is a clue....no one in the general populace gives a damn about gdp, they care about how many pounds are in their pocket....gdp per capita and median gdp per capita would be a far better measure.

    Since 2000 our nations gdp has trended upwards but precious little of that ended up in the pockets of the bottom 70% of the population. Going by GDP we became richer as a nation....gdp per capita not so much
    Could it be that you are out of touch?
    Nope here are some figures with sources....note rounded them to 1000's to give easier sums


    GDP 1997 1,482,000,000
    GDP 2019 2,225,000,000
    source https://www.statista.com/statistics/281744/gdp-of-the-united-kingdom/

    Populations 1997 58,307,000
    Population 2019 67,530,000
    source https://www.macrotrends.net/countries/GBR/united-kingdom/population

    GDP per capita 1997 = 1,482,000,000 / 58,307,000 = 25,417
    GDP per capita 2019 = 2,225,000,000 / 67,530,000 = 32,948

    Adjust for inflation
    calculator source
    https://www.bankofengland.co.uk/monetary-policy/inflation/inflation-calculator

    GDP per capita 1997 inflation adjusted to 2019= 46,608
    GDP per capita 2019 = 32,948
    You said you and everyone you know is better off. I queried wether it was possible that you might be in an out of touch bubble, but perhaps not.
    Because most people I know are in jobs that unless minimum wage have barely seen a pay rise in the last 20 years and more and more have been sucked into minimum wage as it caught up with what they are earning
  • eekeek Posts: 28,368

    eek said:

    something quite ominous about the silence from Rishi Sunak and his aides

    https://twitter.com/PickardJE/status/1513937974148448266

    Weren't they off to California - given that he was in Darlo yesterday they may be flying now.
    Can you fly from Darlo to Cali?
    Yep via Schiphol.
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 22,822

    Snap YouGov poll on Partygate fines:

    - 57% say Johnson should quit
    - 57% say Sunak should quit
    - 75% said Johnson "knowingly lied about breaching Covid-19 rules"

    That 15-20 percent of the population, who think that Boris knowingly lied but that isn't a sacking offence... What's going on there?

    Maybe I'm rapidly aging out of middle age, but if he lies about this, how can you trust him about anything?
    That is a lot saner than the people who think he did not lie, or even worse those still waiting for Sue Gray before they could possibly have an opinion.

    Plenty of people voted for the PM in 2019 already knowing he was a shameless liar who thought himself above normal rules. In a logical sense not much has changed, so why is a change of PM required?
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,401
    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    I would like to thank the Tories for delivering a Labour Government.

    A labour governement getting into power is about the only thing that would make me hold my nose and vote tory, same with many others. The one thing you can guarantee with a labour government if you are working and private sector is you will be poorer at the end of it than you were at the beginning.
    oh?, do you think we will be richer when this mob are kicked out? They've got a long way to catch up with June 2019, or even June 2010!
    Well I am richer now than in the beginning of this governement. Can't say that has ever happened under labour. So are lots of people I know.
    oh really?
    Here is a clue....no one in the general populace gives a damn about gdp, they care about how many pounds are in their pocket....gdp per capita and median gdp per capita would be a far better measure.

    Since 2000 our nations gdp has trended upwards but precious little of that ended up in the pockets of the bottom 70% of the population. Going by GDP we became richer as a nation....gdp per capita not so much
    So at least 70% of the electorate are worse off since the tories have been in?
    Yeah but Pagan2 Is better off so thats all that matters to him
    I want everyone to be better off but its true that under governements whether new labour or tories the bottom 6 or 7 deciles have seen stagnating wages and falling living standards. The last couple of years this has started to change
    But they rose massively under New Labour. They stagnated from 2007 onwards.
    I don't see any evidence round here of living standards improving recently. Quite the opposite.
  • TazTaz Posts: 14,383

    Farooq said:

    Quick, talk about Scotland! Or tuition fees! Something! Anything!

    Trains?
    Trans trains ?
    Carnyx said:

    Taz said:

    Farooq said:

    Quick, talk about Scotland! Or tuition fees! Something! Anything!

    Trains?
    Trans trains ?
    https://newsdesk.avantiwestcoast.co.uk/news/avanti-west-coast-launches-the-uks-first-fully-wrapped-pride-train-staffed-by-all-lgbtq-crew

    Makes a change from Southern Railway Malachite Green.
    Dear me. 😂😂😂😂
  • solarflaresolarflare Posts: 3,705
    edited April 2022
    I'm in the middle of reading the new Ken Macleod novel "Beyond The Hallowed Sky". Given the influence of AI's in it (and a lot of his sci-fi writing in general), the DALL-E stuff is a bit uncomfortable reading.

    The most senior lawmaker in UK has now been convicted of breaking the law and yet remains in office.

    No wonder Putin thinks the West has become decadent.

    To continue the sci-fi theme, I started wondering if Russia versus the West is basically the Idirans versus the Culture.

    The decadent, eccentric, louche and eclectic utopic Culture with its citizens able to change sex at will, whom noone thought would gird its loins enough to properly take on the severe, austere Idirans rapidly expanding their controlled space...

    OK, maybe not, but hey.
  • stodgestodge Posts: 13,874
    Evening all :)

    On matters economic, the 2010s were a standstill decade for me - indeed, I'd argue I'm no better and probably worse off now than I was in 2009. I also accept I'm not representative of anyone other than myself and Hampshire electricians are coining it in (so we are told).

    Still 156.9p per litre unleaded and 170.9p per litre for diesel at my local Tesco's while the nearest Shell station 6p more expensive in both categories.

    Interesting to see Marine Le Pen opposes cutting France off from Russian oil and gas - I've always thought if you are serious about sanctions, you have to be prepared to suffer some pain as well. France's position, as Germany's, means real pain if they cut themselves off from Russian energy though presumably there are other sources.

    As for the Prime Minister, I must confess I want him to face his nemesis from the ballot box - a resounding, humiliating and complete rejection from the electorate - rather than from his own MPs or the media.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,083
    moonshine said:

    something quite ominous about the silence from Rishi Sunak and his aides

    https://twitter.com/PickardJE/status/1513937974148448266

    Not so…

    https://twitter.com/SimonClarkeMP/status/1513931783649304585?s=20&t=_Vha1quQ2dOpI3TMcnbtZw

    Chief Sec to Treasury -
    The PM and Chancellor have my full support. Their efforts during the pandemic have ensured the UK is now free of restrictions and avoided economic catastrophe. I for one am grateful to them for everything they have done for our country.
    The PM has apologised and accepted the Police’s decision today. He has accepted Sue Gray’s recommendations in full and instituted a comprehensive programme of reform in No 10. It’s time to get on with the job of governing at a crucial time at home and abroad.
    I hope mouthy teenagers and petty lawbreakers the length and breadth of the nation are paying attention to the excuses. Anyone who thinks you should do more than apologise for something should be told they are getting in the way of you getting on with the job at a crucial time.
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 9,871

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    I would like to thank the Tories for delivering a Labour Government.

    A labour governement getting into power is about the only thing that would make me hold my nose and vote tory, same with many others. The one thing you can guarantee with a labour government if you are working and private sector is you will be poorer at the end of it than you were at the beginning.
    oh?, do you think we will be richer when this mob are kicked out? They've got a long way to catch up with June 2019, or even June 2010!
    Well I am richer now than in the beginning of this governement. Can't say that has ever happened under labour. So are lots of people I know.
    oh really?
    Here is a clue....no one in the general populace gives a damn about gdp, they care about how many pounds are in their pocket....gdp per capita and median gdp per capita would be a far better measure.

    Since 2000 our nations gdp has trended upwards but precious little of that ended up in the pockets of the bottom 70% of the population. Going by GDP we became richer as a nation....gdp per capita not so much
    So at least 70% of the electorate are worse off since the tories have been in?
    Yeah but Pagan2 Is better off so thats all that matters to him
    I want everyone to be better off but its true that under governements whether new labour or tories the bottom 6 or 7 deciles have seen stagnating wages and falling living standards. The last couple of years this has started to change
    Are wages rising faster than inflation?
    That is not necessarily true and not quite what I said. They have more pounds in their pocket at payday because they have had a payrise finally now companies are having to compete for workers. Whether that covers cost of living is another matter. The extra pounds certainly makes them feel richer and frankly cost of living isnt the fault of this government and would have been the same whoever was in power.

    However still better to have had a payrise that doesnt meet inflation than no payrise and still have the inflation
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,083

    Snap YouGov poll on Partygate fines:

    - 57% say Johnson should quit
    - 57% say Sunak should quit
    - 75% said Johnson "knowingly lied about breaching Covid-19 rules"

    That 15-20 percent of the population, who think that Boris knowingly lied but that isn't a sacking offence... What's going on there?

    Maybe I'm rapidly aging out of middle age, but if he lies about this, how can you trust him about anything?
    That is a lot saner than the people who think he did not lie, or even worse those still waiting for Sue Gray before they could possibly have an opinion.

    MPs: We are people of integrity and judgement deserving of being in a position of authority over the public, and making decisions for you.

    Same MPs: I couldn't possibly offer an opnion about cast iron details which have been acknowldged by the parties involved.
  • TazTaz Posts: 14,383
    Pagan2 said:

    I would like to thank the Tories for delivering a Labour Government.

    A labour governement getting into power is about the only thing that would make me hold my nose and vote tory, same with many others. The one thing you can guarantee with a labour government if you are working and private sector is you will be poorer at the end of it than you were at the beginning.
    Although I vote labour, as I like our MP, I’m less concerned now about a labour govt. labour are now showing themselves to be a party of the working class and working class communities not vested interests, lobbyists, quangos and pressure groups
  • ozymandiasozymandias Posts: 1,503
    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    I would like to thank the Tories for delivering a Labour Government.

    A labour governement getting into power is about the only thing that would make me hold my nose and vote tory, same with many others. The one thing you can guarantee with a labour government if you are working and private sector is you will be poorer at the end of it than you were at the beginning.
    oh?, do you think we will be richer when this mob are kicked out? They've got a long way to catch up with June 2019, or even June 2010!
    Well I am richer now than in the beginning of this governement. Can't say that has ever happened under labour. So are lots of people I know.
    oh really?
    Here is a clue....no one in the general populace gives a damn about gdp, they care about how many pounds are in their pocket....gdp per capita and median gdp per capita would be a far better measure.

    Since 2000 our nations gdp has trended upwards but precious little of that ended up in the pockets of the bottom 70% of the population. Going by GDP we became richer as a nation....gdp per capita not so much
    So at least 70% of the electorate are worse off since the tories have been in?
    Yeah but Pagan2 Is better off so thats all that matters to him
    I want everyone to be better off but its true that under governements whether new labour or tories the bottom 6 or 7 deciles have seen stagnating wages and falling living standards. The last couple of years this has started to change
    Are wages rising faster than inflation?
    That is not necessarily true and not quite what I said. They have more pounds in their pocket at payday because they have had a payrise finally now companies are having to compete for workers. Whether that covers cost of living is another matter. The extra pounds certainly makes them feel richer and frankly cost of living isnt the fault of this government and would have been the same whoever was in power.

    However still better to have had a payrise that doesnt meet inflation than no payrise and still have the inflation
    And, of course, to have a job in the first place.
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,454
    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    I would like to thank the Tories for delivering a Labour Government.

    A labour governement getting into power is about the only thing that would make me hold my nose and vote tory, same with many others. The one thing you can guarantee with a labour government if you are working and private sector is you will be poorer at the end of it than you were at the beginning.
    oh?, do you think we will be richer when this mob are kicked out? They've got a long way to catch up with June 2019, or even June 2010!
    Well I am richer now than in the beginning of this governement. Can't say that has ever happened under labour. So are lots of people I know.
    oh really?
    Here is a clue....no one in the general populace gives a damn about gdp, they care about how many pounds are in their pocket....gdp per capita and median gdp per capita would be a far better measure.

    Since 2000 our nations gdp has trended upwards but precious little of that ended up in the pockets of the bottom 70% of the population. Going by GDP we became richer as a nation....gdp per capita not so much
    So at least 70% of the electorate are worse off since the tories have been in?
    Yeah but Pagan2 Is better off so thats all that matters to him
    I want everyone to be better off but its true that under governements whether new labour or tories the bottom 6 or 7 deciles have seen stagnating wages and falling living standards. The last couple of years this has started to change
    Are wages rising faster than inflation?
    That is not necessarily true and not quite what I said. They have more pounds in their pocket at payday because they have had a payrise finally now companies are having to compete for workers. Whether that covers cost of living is another matter. The extra pounds certainly makes them feel richer and frankly cost of living isnt the fault of this government and would have been the same whoever was in power.

    However still better to have had a payrise that doesnt meet inflation than no payrise and still have the inflation
    Perhaps.

    Everyone I know earning between 18-30k is certainly not feeling better off. Not exactly the metropolitan elite, although you are right, not minimum wage either.
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 9,871
    dixiedean said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    I would like to thank the Tories for delivering a Labour Government.

    A labour governement getting into power is about the only thing that would make me hold my nose and vote tory, same with many others. The one thing you can guarantee with a labour government if you are working and private sector is you will be poorer at the end of it than you were at the beginning.
    oh?, do you think we will be richer when this mob are kicked out? They've got a long way to catch up with June 2019, or even June 2010!
    Well I am richer now than in the beginning of this governement. Can't say that has ever happened under labour. So are lots of people I know.
    oh really?
    Here is a clue....no one in the general populace gives a damn about gdp, they care about how many pounds are in their pocket....gdp per capita and median gdp per capita would be a far better measure.

    Since 2000 our nations gdp has trended upwards but precious little of that ended up in the pockets of the bottom 70% of the population. Going by GDP we became richer as a nation....gdp per capita not so much
    So at least 70% of the electorate are worse off since the tories have been in?
    Yeah but Pagan2 Is better off so thats all that matters to him
    I want everyone to be better off but its true that under governements whether new labour or tories the bottom 6 or 7 deciles have seen stagnating wages and falling living standards. The last couple of years this has started to change
    But they rose massively under New Labour. They stagnated from 2007 onwards.
    I don't see any evidence round here of living standards improving recently. Quite the opposite.
    No its smoke and mirrors, New labour raised bottom deciles by imposition of the minimum wage. Wages that weren't minimum wage jobs and in the bottom 7 deciles stagnated and have every year since 2002.
  • TazTaz Posts: 14,383

    See my earlier post - it will take several days to show up in the polls
    Surely this is all priced in anyway ?
  • ozymandiasozymandias Posts: 1,503
    Farooq said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    I would like to thank the Tories for delivering a Labour Government.

    A labour governement getting into power is about the only thing that would make me hold my nose and vote tory, same with many others. The one thing you can guarantee with a labour government if you are working and private sector is you will be poorer at the end of it than you were at the beginning.
    oh?, do you think we will be richer when this mob are kicked out? They've got a long way to catch up with June 2019, or even June 2010!
    Well I am richer now than in the beginning of this governement. Can't say that has ever happened under labour. So are lots of people I know.
    oh really?
    Here is a clue....no one in the general populace gives a damn about gdp, they care about how many pounds are in their pocket....gdp per capita and median gdp per capita would be a far better measure.

    Since 2000 our nations gdp has trended upwards but precious little of that ended up in the pockets of the bottom 70% of the population. Going by GDP we became richer as a nation....gdp per capita not so much
    So at least 70% of the electorate are worse off since the tories have been in?
    Yeah but Pagan2 Is better off so thats all that matters to him
    I want everyone to be better off but its true that under governements whether new labour or tories the bottom 6 or 7 deciles have seen stagnating wages and falling living standards. The last couple of years this has started to change
    Are wages rising faster than inflation?
    That is not necessarily true and not quite what I said. They have more pounds in their pocket at payday because they have had a payrise finally now companies are having to compete for workers. Whether that covers cost of living is another matter. The extra pounds certainly makes them feel richer and frankly cost of living isnt the fault of this government and would have been the same whoever was in power.

    However still better to have had a payrise that doesnt meet inflation than no payrise and still have the inflation
    "it would have been the same whoever was in power" didn't work for Labour and it won't work for you.
    It could have worked for Labour if Gordon Brown hadn't been, well, Gordon Brown. Blair would have won in 2010 tbh.
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 9,871
    Farooq said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    I would like to thank the Tories for delivering a Labour Government.

    A labour governement getting into power is about the only thing that would make me hold my nose and vote tory, same with many others. The one thing you can guarantee with a labour government if you are working and private sector is you will be poorer at the end of it than you were at the beginning.
    oh?, do you think we will be richer when this mob are kicked out? They've got a long way to catch up with June 2019, or even June 2010!
    Well I am richer now than in the beginning of this governement. Can't say that has ever happened under labour. So are lots of people I know.
    oh really?
    Here is a clue....no one in the general populace gives a damn about gdp, they care about how many pounds are in their pocket....gdp per capita and median gdp per capita would be a far better measure.

    Since 2000 our nations gdp has trended upwards but precious little of that ended up in the pockets of the bottom 70% of the population. Going by GDP we became richer as a nation....gdp per capita not so much
    So at least 70% of the electorate are worse off since the tories have been in?
    Yeah but Pagan2 Is better off so thats all that matters to him
    I want everyone to be better off but its true that under governements whether new labour or tories the bottom 6 or 7 deciles have seen stagnating wages and falling living standards. The last couple of years this has started to change
    Are wages rising faster than inflation?
    That is not necessarily true and not quite what I said. They have more pounds in their pocket at payday because they have had a payrise finally now companies are having to compete for workers. Whether that covers cost of living is another matter. The extra pounds certainly makes them feel richer and frankly cost of living isnt the fault of this government and would have been the same whoever was in power.

    However still better to have had a payrise that doesnt meet inflation than no payrise and still have the inflation
    "it would have been the same whoever was in power" didn't work for Labour and it won't work for you.
    I am not in power nor is any party I support or voted for so as usual you point is pointless
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,714
    ...

  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,714
    edited April 2022
    "This is perhaps the most important test of the robustness and efficacy of the checks and balances in the British constitution of my lifetime."

    Peston.

    https://www.itv.com/news/2022-04-12/peston-should-tory-mps-force-the-pm-to-quit-to-help-the-government-survive
  • bigglesbiggles Posts: 6,051

    Snap YouGov poll on Partygate fines:

    - 57% say Johnson should quit
    - 57% say Sunak should quit
    - 75% said Johnson "knowingly lied about breaching Covid-19 rules"

    That 15-20 percent of the population, who think that Boris knowingly lied but that isn't a sacking offence... What's going on there?

    Maybe I'm rapidly aging out of middle age, but if he lies about this, how can you trust him about anything?
    That is a lot saner than the people who think he did not lie, or even worse those still waiting for Sue Gray before they could possibly have an opinion.

    Plenty of people voted for the PM in 2019 already knowing he was a shameless liar who thought himself above normal rules. In a logical sense not much has changed, so why is a change of PM required?
    Yes, I fear that this site massively underestimates the extent to which many voted for Boris accepting he was a shyster but also that he was a useful one (they wanted Brexit).

    Even from my own perspective I find it perfectly possible to state both that he SHOULD resign and that when he doesn’t I still might vote for him next time, because it will be 2024 and I’ll have to take a view on Labour as well.

    I won’t be alone. That’s why I think Starmer needs a “Cameron/Osborne 2007” type conference this year to seal the deal, and overall I think a Boris win is underestimated given where the polls are.
  • Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    I would like to thank the Tories for delivering a Labour Government.

    A labour governement getting into power is about the only thing that would make me hold my nose and vote tory, same with many others. The one thing you can guarantee with a labour government if you are working and private sector is you will be poorer at the end of it than you were at the beginning.
    oh?, do you think we will be richer when this mob are kicked out? They've got a long way to catch up with June 2019, or even June 2010!
    Well I am richer now than in the beginning of this governement. Can't say that has ever happened under labour. So are lots of people I know.
    oh really?
    Here is a clue....no one in the general populace gives a damn about gdp, they care about how many pounds are in their pocket....gdp per capita and median gdp per capita would be a far better measure.

    Since 2000 our nations gdp has trended upwards but precious little of that ended up in the pockets of the bottom 70% of the population. Going by GDP we became richer as a nation....gdp per capita not so much
    So at least 70% of the electorate are worse off since the tories have been in?
    Yeah but Pagan2 Is better off so thats all that matters to him
    I want everyone to be better off but its true that under governements whether new labour or tories the bottom 6 or 7 deciles have seen stagnating wages and falling living standards. The last couple of years this has started to change
    Are wages rising faster than inflation?
    That is not necessarily true and not quite what I said. They have more pounds in their pocket at payday because they have had a payrise finally now companies are having to compete for workers. Whether that covers cost of living is another matter. The extra pounds certainly makes them feel richer and frankly cost of living isnt the fault of this government and would have been the same whoever was in power.

    However still better to have had a payrise that doesnt meet inflation than no payrise and still have the inflation
    Unless a government has just been voted in, its fortunes rise and fall with the economy. This is one of the most basic statements about politics that it's surprising to hear anyone argue otherwise.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,310

    No 10 confirms this FPN was issued for the June 19th PM birthday gathering. PM is also linked to up to another five events the Met is investigating. Sunak was only quizzed by the police over this single June 19 event

    https://twitter.com/BethRigby/status/1513906163384995842

    Did we ever get an answer to the question of whether the police have power to issue an FPN more than 6 months after the event in question?

    BTW in case anyone is interested the regulations applicable in June 2020 can be found here - https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2020/350/contents/made.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,714

    Liz Truss
    @trussliz

    United Kingdom government official
    · 21m
    The Prime Minister has apologised and taken responsibility for what happened in Downing Street. He and the Chancellor are delivering for Britain on many fronts including on the international security crisis we face. They have my 100% backing.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,249
    Taz said:

    See my earlier post - it will take several days to show up in the polls
    Surely this is all priced in anyway ?
    No, I don’t think this is.

    It depends on the political reaction to it, partly.

    But I think it will move the polls further to Labour, within a few days. The extent is the question.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,714
    Truss becomes most senior MP to agree that breaking the law and lying to parliament are not resigning matters for a minister.

  • solarflaresolarflare Posts: 3,705

    "This is perhaps the most important test of the robustness and efficacy of the checks and balances in the British constitution of my lifetime."

    Peston.

    https://www.itv.com/news/2022-04-12/peston-should-tory-mps-force-the-pm-to-quit-to-help-the-government-survive

    Well, I suspect we know how that test's going to go. Badly.
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 9,871
    Farooq said:

    Pagan2 said:

    dixiedean said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    I would like to thank the Tories for delivering a Labour Government.

    A labour governement getting into power is about the only thing that would make me hold my nose and vote tory, same with many others. The one thing you can guarantee with a labour government if you are working and private sector is you will be poorer at the end of it than you were at the beginning.
    oh?, do you think we will be richer when this mob are kicked out? They've got a long way to catch up with June 2019, or even June 2010!
    Well I am richer now than in the beginning of this governement. Can't say that has ever happened under labour. So are lots of people I know.
    oh really?
    Here is a clue....no one in the general populace gives a damn about gdp, they care about how many pounds are in their pocket....gdp per capita and median gdp per capita would be a far better measure.

    Since 2000 our nations gdp has trended upwards but precious little of that ended up in the pockets of the bottom 70% of the population. Going by GDP we became richer as a nation....gdp per capita not so much
    So at least 70% of the electorate are worse off since the tories have been in?
    Yeah but Pagan2 Is better off so thats all that matters to him
    I want everyone to be better off but its true that under governements whether new labour or tories the bottom 6 or 7 deciles have seen stagnating wages and falling living standards. The last couple of years this has started to change
    But they rose massively under New Labour. They stagnated from 2007 onwards.
    I don't see any evidence round here of living standards improving recently. Quite the opposite.
    No its smoke and mirrors, New labour raised bottom deciles by imposition of the minimum wage. Wages that weren't minimum wage jobs and in the bottom 7 deciles stagnated and have every year since 2002.
    That doesn't seem to be true
    https://www.statista.com/statistics/1002964/average-full-time-annual-earnings-in-the-uk/
    yes it actually still is true

    go here https://www.bankofengland.co.uk/monetary-policy/inflation/inflation-calculator

    plug in 1999 and 17800 cost in 2021

    inflation adjust average salary from 1999 is 32,822.93

    now I may be mistaken but that is less than 31,285 quoted as the current average wage.....wow....does that mean maybe the average wage is lower now in real terms....why yes I think it does
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,083

    "This is perhaps the most important test of the robustness and efficacy of the checks and balances in the British constitution of my lifetime."

    Peston.

    https://www.itv.com/news/2022-04-12/peston-should-tory-mps-force-the-pm-to-quit-to-help-the-government-survive

    Takes a lot to to overegg this scandal, but he's managed it.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 28,421
    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    I would like to thank the Tories for delivering a Labour Government.

    A labour governement getting into power is about the only thing that would make me hold my nose and vote tory, same with many others. The one thing you can guarantee with a labour government if you are working and private sector is you will be poorer at the end of it than you were at the beginning.
    oh?, do you think we will be richer when this mob are kicked out? They've got a long way to catch up with June 2019, or even June 2010!
    Well I am richer now than in the beginning of this governement. Can't say that has ever happened under labour. So are lots of people I know.
    oh really?
    Here is a clue....no one in the general populace gives a damn about gdp, they care about how many pounds are in their pocket....gdp per capita and median gdp per capita would be a far better measure.

    Since 2000 our nations gdp has trended upwards but precious little of that ended up in the pockets of the bottom 70% of the population. Going by GDP we became richer as a nation....gdp per capita not so much
    So at least 70% of the electorate are worse off since the tories have been in?
    Yeah but Pagan2 Is better off so thats all that matters to him
    I want everyone to be better off but its true that under governements whether new labour or tories the bottom 6 or 7 deciles have seen stagnating wages and falling living standards. The last couple of years this has started to change
    Are wages rising faster than inflation?
    That is not necessarily true and not quite what I said. They have more pounds in their pocket at payday because they have had a payrise finally now companies are having to compete for workers. Whether that covers cost of living is another matter. The extra pounds certainly makes them feel richer and frankly cost of living isnt the fault of this government and would have been the same whoever was in power.

    However still better to have had a payrise that doesnt meet inflation than no payrise and still have the inflation
    The extra cost of living is certainly the fault of the Government. Who else's fault is it? I don't expect our Government to throw its hands up and say 'Sorry chaps, the world is looking dicey at the moment, sorry about your living standards n' all.' - they need to find solutions.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,714
    Taz said:

    See my earlier post - it will take several days to show up in the polls
    Surely this is all priced in anyway ?
    But we have all been reminded of what he did.

    I for one am angry all over again this evening.

  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 9,871

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    I would like to thank the Tories for delivering a Labour Government.

    A labour governement getting into power is about the only thing that would make me hold my nose and vote tory, same with many others. The one thing you can guarantee with a labour government if you are working and private sector is you will be poorer at the end of it than you were at the beginning.
    oh?, do you think we will be richer when this mob are kicked out? They've got a long way to catch up with June 2019, or even June 2010!
    Well I am richer now than in the beginning of this governement. Can't say that has ever happened under labour. So are lots of people I know.
    oh really?
    Here is a clue....no one in the general populace gives a damn about gdp, they care about how many pounds are in their pocket....gdp per capita and median gdp per capita would be a far better measure.

    Since 2000 our nations gdp has trended upwards but precious little of that ended up in the pockets of the bottom 70% of the population. Going by GDP we became richer as a nation....gdp per capita not so much
    So at least 70% of the electorate are worse off since the tories have been in?
    Yeah but Pagan2 Is better off so thats all that matters to him
    I want everyone to be better off but its true that under governements whether new labour or tories the bottom 6 or 7 deciles have seen stagnating wages and falling living standards. The last couple of years this has started to change
    Are wages rising faster than inflation?
    That is not necessarily true and not quite what I said. They have more pounds in their pocket at payday because they have had a payrise finally now companies are having to compete for workers. Whether that covers cost of living is another matter. The extra pounds certainly makes them feel richer and frankly cost of living isnt the fault of this government and would have been the same whoever was in power.

    However still better to have had a payrise that doesnt meet inflation than no payrise and still have the inflation
    The extra cost of living is certainly the fault of the Government. Who else's fault is it? I don't expect our Government to throw its hands up and say 'Sorry chaps, the world is looking dicey at the moment, sorry about your living standards n' all.' - they need to find solutions.
    I wouldn't blame any party that was in government now due to the rise in global gas prices, covid supply chain issues etc. I am sure the luckyguy party would have done absolutely no better
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,083

    Taz said:

    See my earlier post - it will take several days to show up in the polls
    Surely this is all priced in anyway ?
    But we have all been reminded of what he did.

    I for one am angry all over again this evening.

    I'm angry, but my heart's not really in it. Everything is proceeding as I had foreseen, right down to the very words used as excuses, so it's really just depressing rather than enraging.
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 9,871
    Farooq said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Farooq said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    I would like to thank the Tories for delivering a Labour Government.

    A labour governement getting into power is about the only thing that would make me hold my nose and vote tory, same with many others. The one thing you can guarantee with a labour government if you are working and private sector is you will be poorer at the end of it than you were at the beginning.
    oh?, do you think we will be richer when this mob are kicked out? They've got a long way to catch up with June 2019, or even June 2010!
    Well I am richer now than in the beginning of this governement. Can't say that has ever happened under labour. So are lots of people I know.
    oh really?
    Here is a clue....no one in the general populace gives a damn about gdp, they care about how many pounds are in their pocket....gdp per capita and median gdp per capita would be a far better measure.

    Since 2000 our nations gdp has trended upwards but precious little of that ended up in the pockets of the bottom 70% of the population. Going by GDP we became richer as a nation....gdp per capita not so much
    So at least 70% of the electorate are worse off since the tories have been in?
    Yeah but Pagan2 Is better off so thats all that matters to him
    I want everyone to be better off but its true that under governements whether new labour or tories the bottom 6 or 7 deciles have seen stagnating wages and falling living standards. The last couple of years this has started to change
    Are wages rising faster than inflation?
    That is not necessarily true and not quite what I said. They have more pounds in their pocket at payday because they have had a payrise finally now companies are having to compete for workers. Whether that covers cost of living is another matter. The extra pounds certainly makes them feel richer and frankly cost of living isnt the fault of this government and would have been the same whoever was in power.

    However still better to have had a payrise that doesnt meet inflation than no payrise and still have the inflation
    "it would have been the same whoever was in power" didn't work for Labour and it won't work for you.
    I am not in power nor is any party I support or voted for so as usual you point is pointless
    I don't really care on whose behalf you're making that argument, it won't wash. It never has.
    Well as I wasn't making it on anyones behalf as I said you had no point as always
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,153
    Pagan2 said:

    Farooq said:

    Pagan2 said:

    dixiedean said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    I would like to thank the Tories for delivering a Labour Government.

    A labour governement getting into power is about the only thing that would make me hold my nose and vote tory, same with many others. The one thing you can guarantee with a labour government if you are working and private sector is you will be poorer at the end of it than you were at the beginning.
    oh?, do you think we will be richer when this mob are kicked out? They've got a long way to catch up with June 2019, or even June 2010!
    Well I am richer now than in the beginning of this governement. Can't say that has ever happened under labour. So are lots of people I know.
    oh really?
    Here is a clue....no one in the general populace gives a damn about gdp, they care about how many pounds are in their pocket....gdp per capita and median gdp per capita would be a far better measure.

    Since 2000 our nations gdp has trended upwards but precious little of that ended up in the pockets of the bottom 70% of the population. Going by GDP we became richer as a nation....gdp per capita not so much
    So at least 70% of the electorate are worse off since the tories have been in?
    Yeah but Pagan2 Is better off so thats all that matters to him
    I want everyone to be better off but its true that under governements whether new labour or tories the bottom 6 or 7 deciles have seen stagnating wages and falling living standards. The last couple of years this has started to change
    But they rose massively under New Labour. They stagnated from 2007 onwards.
    I don't see any evidence round here of living standards improving recently. Quite the opposite.
    No its smoke and mirrors, New labour raised bottom deciles by imposition of the minimum wage. Wages that weren't minimum wage jobs and in the bottom 7 deciles stagnated and have every year since 2002.
    That doesn't seem to be true
    https://www.statista.com/statistics/1002964/average-full-time-annual-earnings-in-the-uk/
    yes it actually still is true

    go here https://www.bankofengland.co.uk/monetary-policy/inflation/inflation-calculator

    plug in 1999 and 17800 cost in 2021

    inflation adjust average salary from 1999 is 32,822.93

    now I may be mistaken but that is less than 31,285 quoted as the current average wage.....wow....does that mean maybe the average wage is lower now in real terms....why yes I think it does
    How does that compare to other developed countries?

    And do differences correlate to levels of lower skilled immigration?
  • StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 8,243

    The 🇬🇧 changed PM
    👉🏻four times in the war in Afghanistan
    👉🏻in the Iraq War
    👉🏻in the Gulf War
    👉🏻in the Korean War
    👉🏻in the Second World War
    👉🏻in the First World War
    👉🏻in the Second Boer War
    👉🏻in the Second Opium War
    👉🏻in the Crimean War
    👉🏻twice in the Peninsular War


    https://twitter.com/RhonddaBryant/status/1513915021239193614

    Nothing before gulf war matters as time of communication/ decision making v different

    Afghanistan and 2x gulf not existential in way Ukraine vs Russia could become
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 22,822

    Truss becomes most senior MP to agree that breaking the law and lying to parliament are not resigning matters for a minister.

    Thought it had already been established that breaking the law is fine, as long as it is in a limited and specific way. Another acceptable exemption from the law is if the event happened in the past, of course.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,310
    Scott_xP said:

    Carrie has paid the fine, which rather fucks BoZo defending it in court

    No. It doesn't. Read the regulations.

    I never wanted Boris as PM. He is a man with scant regard for the truth or law.

    But I get irritated when those who oppose him seem to have no greater regard for what the regulations said either.

    I expect he and Sunak will try to brazen it out. And I expect Tory MPs will let them do so.

  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,083

    The 🇬🇧 changed PM
    👉🏻four times in the war in Afghanistan
    👉🏻in the Iraq War
    👉🏻in the Gulf War
    👉🏻in the Korean War
    👉🏻in the Second World War
    👉🏻in the First World War
    👉🏻in the Second Boer War
    👉🏻in the Second Opium War
    👉🏻in the Crimean War
    👉🏻twice in the Peninsular War


    https://twitter.com/RhonddaBryant/status/1513915021239193614

    Nothing before gulf war matters as time of communication/ decision making v different

    Yes, it is even easier to communicate and make decisions, and enact those decisions worldwide, so the implications of making the switch are less.
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 9,871
    rcs1000 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Farooq said:

    Pagan2 said:

    dixiedean said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    I would like to thank the Tories for delivering a Labour Government.

    A labour governement getting into power is about the only thing that would make me hold my nose and vote tory, same with many others. The one thing you can guarantee with a labour government if you are working and private sector is you will be poorer at the end of it than you were at the beginning.
    oh?, do you think we will be richer when this mob are kicked out? They've got a long way to catch up with June 2019, or even June 2010!
    Well I am richer now than in the beginning of this governement. Can't say that has ever happened under labour. So are lots of people I know.
    oh really?
    Here is a clue....no one in the general populace gives a damn about gdp, they care about how many pounds are in their pocket....gdp per capita and median gdp per capita would be a far better measure.

    Since 2000 our nations gdp has trended upwards but precious little of that ended up in the pockets of the bottom 70% of the population. Going by GDP we became richer as a nation....gdp per capita not so much
    So at least 70% of the electorate are worse off since the tories have been in?
    Yeah but Pagan2 Is better off so thats all that matters to him
    I want everyone to be better off but its true that under governements whether new labour or tories the bottom 6 or 7 deciles have seen stagnating wages and falling living standards. The last couple of years this has started to change
    But they rose massively under New Labour. They stagnated from 2007 onwards.
    I don't see any evidence round here of living standards improving recently. Quite the opposite.
    No its smoke and mirrors, New labour raised bottom deciles by imposition of the minimum wage. Wages that weren't minimum wage jobs and in the bottom 7 deciles stagnated and have every year since 2002.
    That doesn't seem to be true
    https://www.statista.com/statistics/1002964/average-full-time-annual-earnings-in-the-uk/
    yes it actually still is true

    go here https://www.bankofengland.co.uk/monetary-policy/inflation/inflation-calculator

    plug in 1999 and 17800 cost in 2021

    inflation adjust average salary from 1999 is 32,822.93

    now I may be mistaken but that is less than 31,285 quoted as the current average wage.....wow....does that mean maybe the average wage is lower now in real terms....why yes I think it does
    How does that compare to other developed countries?

    And do differences correlate to levels of lower skilled immigration?
    No idea, haven't looked and wasn't necessarily linking it to immigration the point I was making was merely that a rising gdp does not mean a rising gdp per capita. It was in response to a comment about the country getting richer and that to me only counts if everyones slice gets bigger otherwise its actually a pretty meaningless statistic for the average person in the street as it does him no good whatsoever
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,277
    Want to feel old?

    Little Red Corvette was released FORTY YEARS AGO

    “Move over baby, give me your keys,
    I’m gonna try and take your little red love machine”


    *huge existential sigh*
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,083
    edited April 2022
    In a 'fun day for this news to break' update.

    Former Fifa president Sepp Blatter and former Uefa president Michel Platini will go on trial in Switzerland in June to face corruption charges

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/61086784

    Case was opened in 2015. What is even the point when things take so long?
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 28,421
    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    I would like to thank the Tories for delivering a Labour Government.

    A labour governement getting into power is about the only thing that would make me hold my nose and vote tory, same with many others. The one thing you can guarantee with a labour government if you are working and private sector is you will be poorer at the end of it than you were at the beginning.
    oh?, do you think we will be richer when this mob are kicked out? They've got a long way to catch up with June 2019, or even June 2010!
    Well I am richer now than in the beginning of this governement. Can't say that has ever happened under labour. So are lots of people I know.
    oh really?
    Here is a clue....no one in the general populace gives a damn about gdp, they care about how many pounds are in their pocket....gdp per capita and median gdp per capita would be a far better measure.

    Since 2000 our nations gdp has trended upwards but precious little of that ended up in the pockets of the bottom 70% of the population. Going by GDP we became richer as a nation....gdp per capita not so much
    So at least 70% of the electorate are worse off since the tories have been in?
    Yeah but Pagan2 Is better off so thats all that matters to him
    I want everyone to be better off but its true that under governements whether new labour or tories the bottom 6 or 7 deciles have seen stagnating wages and falling living standards. The last couple of years this has started to change
    Are wages rising faster than inflation?
    That is not necessarily true and not quite what I said. They have more pounds in their pocket at payday because they have had a payrise finally now companies are having to compete for workers. Whether that covers cost of living is another matter. The extra pounds certainly makes them feel richer and frankly cost of living isnt the fault of this government and would have been the same whoever was in power.

    However still better to have had a payrise that doesnt meet inflation than no payrise and still have the inflation
    The extra cost of living is certainly the fault of the Government. Who else's fault is it? I don't expect our Government to throw its hands up and say 'Sorry chaps, the world is looking dicey at the moment, sorry about your living standards n' all.' - they need to find solutions.
    I wouldn't blame any party that was in government now due to the rise in global gas prices, covid supply chain issues etc. I am sure the luckyguy party would have done absolutely no better
    They luckyguy party would at least have turned up to the game of doing better.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 21,650
    Why do we need to obey Boris’ laws or pay Sunak’s taxes?
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,083
    Leon said:

    Want to feel old?

    Little Red Corvette was released FORTY YEARS AGO

    “Move over baby, give me your keys,
    I’m gonna try and take your little red love machine”


    *huge existential sigh*

    What's little red corvette?
  • Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    I would like to thank the Tories for delivering a Labour Government.

    A labour governement getting into power is about the only thing that would make me hold my nose and vote tory, same with many others. The one thing you can guarantee with a labour government if you are working and private sector is you will be poorer at the end of it than you were at the beginning.
    oh?, do you think we will be richer when this mob are kicked out? They've got a long way to catch up with June 2019, or even June 2010!
    Well I am richer now than in the beginning of this governement. Can't say that has ever happened under labour. So are lots of people I know.
    oh really?
    Here is a clue....no one in the general populace gives a damn about gdp, they care about how many pounds are in their pocket....gdp per capita and median gdp per capita would be a far better measure.

    Since 2000 our nations gdp has trended upwards but precious little of that ended up in the pockets of the bottom 70% of the population. Going by GDP we became richer as a nation....gdp per capita not so much
    So at least 70% of the electorate are worse off since the tories have been in?
    Yeah but Pagan2 Is better off so thats all that matters to him
    I want everyone to be better off but its true that under governements whether new labour or tories the bottom 6 or 7 deciles have seen stagnating wages and falling living standards. The last couple of years this has started to change
    Are wages rising faster than inflation?
    That is not necessarily true and not quite what I said. They have more pounds in their pocket at payday because they have had a payrise finally now companies are having to compete for workers. Whether that covers cost of living is another matter. The extra pounds certainly makes them feel richer and frankly cost of living isnt the fault of this government and would have been the same whoever was in power.

    However still better to have had a payrise that doesnt meet inflation than no payrise and still have the inflation
    The extra cost of living is certainly the fault of the Government. Who else's fault is it? I don't expect our Government to throw its hands up and say 'Sorry chaps, the world is looking dicey at the moment, sorry about your living standards n' all.' - they need to find solutions.
    The world price for gas and oil is not the fault of HMG and indeed is hammering governments across the world

    I would however be interested in your suggestions how it is mitigated
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,277
    kle4 said:

    Leon said:

    Want to feel old?

    Little Red Corvette was released FORTY YEARS AGO

    “Move over baby, give me your keys,
    I’m gonna try and take your little red love machine”


    *huge existential sigh*

    What's little red corvette?
    Lol

    Thanks. Not
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,413
    I hope you all followed my advice to lay Rishi Sunak 2 months ago.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 21,650

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    I would like to thank the Tories for delivering a Labour Government.

    A labour governement getting into power is about the only thing that would make me hold my nose and vote tory, same with many others. The one thing you can guarantee with a labour government if you are working and private sector is you will be poorer at the end of it than you were at the beginning.
    oh?, do you think we will be richer when this mob are kicked out? They've got a long way to catch up with June 2019, or even June 2010!
    Well I am richer now than in the beginning of this governement. Can't say that has ever happened under labour. So are lots of people I know.
    oh really?
    Here is a clue....no one in the general populace gives a damn about gdp, they care about how many pounds are in their pocket....gdp per capita and median gdp per capita would be a far better measure.

    Since 2000 our nations gdp has trended upwards but precious little of that ended up in the pockets of the bottom 70% of the population. Going by GDP we became richer as a nation....gdp per capita not so much
    So at least 70% of the electorate are worse off since the tories have been in?
    Yeah but Pagan2 Is better off so thats all that matters to him
    I want everyone to be better off but its true that under governements whether new labour or tories the bottom 6 or 7 deciles have seen stagnating wages and falling living standards. The last couple of years this has started to change
    Are wages rising faster than inflation?
    That is not necessarily true and not quite what I said. They have more pounds in their pocket at payday because they have had a payrise finally now companies are having to compete for workers. Whether that covers cost of living is another matter. The extra pounds certainly makes them feel richer and frankly cost of living isnt the fault of this government and would have been the same whoever was in power.

    However still better to have had a payrise that doesnt meet inflation than no payrise and still have the inflation
    The extra cost of living is certainly the fault of the Government. Who else's fault is it? I don't expect our Government to throw its hands up and say 'Sorry chaps, the world is looking dicey at the moment, sorry about your living standards n' all.' - they need to find solutions.
    The world price for gas and oil is not the fault of HMG and indeed is hammering governments across the world

    I would however be interested in your suggestions how it is mitigated
    It’s like 2008 all over again, but backwards.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,070

    Boris Johnson says that getting caught breaking the law gives him "an even greater sense of obligation" to fulfil "levelling up" and "deliver priorities.” 🤨

    Tone deaf

    We’re fully into the taking the piss stage of this government.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,375

    I hope you all followed my advice to lay Rishi Sunak 2 months ago.

    If we did he must have been getting even more sex than Johnson...
  • SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 17,559
    Seems obvious today why Volodymyr Zelenskyy switched to politics.

    Since comics simply can NOT out-laugh the likes of 45 and BoJo, might as well join them just to get a gig.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,070

    Do we really want someone as Prime Minister who is too dumb to realise he is at a party?

    in the words of PB Tories - aah never mind, he's doing his best...

    It really does not matter how any conservative views this unless you are a mp then it is their responsibility to decide how to react
    “Don’t blame me, I only voted for him.”
  • TazTaz Posts: 14,383
    Leon said:

    Want to feel old?

    Little Red Corvette was released FORTY YEARS AGO

    “Move over baby, give me your keys,
    I’m gonna try and take your little red love machine”


    *huge existential sigh*

    Whatever it is it is closer to the end of the Second World War than today
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 32,521
    Jonathan said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    I would like to thank the Tories for delivering a Labour Government.

    A labour governement getting into power is about the only thing that would make me hold my nose and vote tory, same with many others. The one thing you can guarantee with a labour government if you are working and private sector is you will be poorer at the end of it than you were at the beginning.
    oh?, do you think we will be richer when this mob are kicked out? They've got a long way to catch up with June 2019, or even June 2010!
    Well I am richer now than in the beginning of this governement. Can't say that has ever happened under labour. So are lots of people I know.
    oh really?
    Here is a clue....no one in the general populace gives a damn about gdp, they care about how many pounds are in their pocket....gdp per capita and median gdp per capita would be a far better measure.

    Since 2000 our nations gdp has trended upwards but precious little of that ended up in the pockets of the bottom 70% of the population. Going by GDP we became richer as a nation....gdp per capita not so much
    So at least 70% of the electorate are worse off since the tories have been in?
    Yeah but Pagan2 Is better off so thats all that matters to him
    I want everyone to be better off but its true that under governements whether new labour or tories the bottom 6 or 7 deciles have seen stagnating wages and falling living standards. The last couple of years this has started to change
    Are wages rising faster than inflation?
    That is not necessarily true and not quite what I said. They have more pounds in their pocket at payday because they have had a payrise finally now companies are having to compete for workers. Whether that covers cost of living is another matter. The extra pounds certainly makes them feel richer and frankly cost of living isnt the fault of this government and would have been the same whoever was in power.

    However still better to have had a payrise that doesnt meet inflation than no payrise and still have the inflation
    The extra cost of living is certainly the fault of the Government. Who else's fault is it? I don't expect our Government to throw its hands up and say 'Sorry chaps, the world is looking dicey at the moment, sorry about your living standards n' all.' - they need to find solutions.
    The world price for gas and oil is not the fault of HMG and indeed is hammering governments across the world

    I would however be interested in your suggestions how it is mitigated
    It’s like 2008 all over again, but backwards.
    I would agree with that.

    The Financial crisis in 2008 was not Gordon Brown's fault but his actions prior to the crisis made it far worse for the UK than it needed to be.

    The current Energy crisis is not Johnson's fault but his energy policies - along with those of his predecessors - have made us far more vulnerable to the crisis and far less able to ameliorate its worst effects

    In both instances we can say that the Government failed in its duty to anticipate and mitigate against world events.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,191
    I hear Zelensky's men will give up the fight if Starmer, Hunt, Tugendhat or Javid gets the top job.
    Слава Boris :wink:
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 21,650
    He won’t resign and they’re too frit to push him out. What a complete shower the modern Conservative party has become. UKIP without the class.
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 11,052
    Cyclefree said:

    DavidL said:

    It is mildly annoying how the media simply state that there has been wrongdoing as a fact now. The FPN is an offer to accept a fine. If it is not taken up the matter has to go to court and guilt or innocence is then determined. The view of the Met is simply that.

    Yes, I've noticed that. The New Statesman said this - "It’s now official. For the first time a British prime minister has been found to have committed a criminal act while in office…"

    This is simply incorrect. What the FPN says is that the police reasonably believe that a person has breached regulations and that the person can settle the matter by paying a fine. But if they do not, then the CPS must decide to start a criminal prosecution and the matter goes to the magistrates court for a decision. Only once they have decided that a breach has occurred can it be said that the PM has "been found to have committed a criminal act".

    At the risk of being really tiresomely pedantic, when fines were challenged before, the CPS found that in a very large number of cases, the police had simply got either the law or facts wrong.

    We should not rush to assume that the police have necessarily got matters right this time either. They may have. Or they may not. They were terribly confused over the difference between law and guidelines when the regulations first came out. And there are quite a few recent examples of them getting this wrong in cases other than the Covid regulations.

    So for example - in summer 2020 the regulation stated that you had to have a reasonable excuse to be outside your home. Being at work was such a reasonable excuse.

    Let's take the PM's birthday: he is at work. He has a reasonable excuse to be there.

    His wife turns up with a cake. She is not going to work. She appears to have no reasonable excuse. Ah - but is the room where she meets with him in his office or in a room which is part of their home?

    His Chancellor who works at another office also turn up. He knows it's the PM's birthday and also has work things to discuss with him. Does he have a reasonable excuse or not for being there?

    Without knowing the precise facts of these events / parties / meetings and the relevant regulations applicable at the time, how is it possible to tell whether or not the regulations were breached?

    The law empowered the police to assess whether someone has broken the legal regulations. The police carefully considered the facts of these events and the relevant regulations, apparently also consulting with the CPS. They concluded he had broken the law. Johnson has accepted their judgement. He has NOT challenged the fine. Ergo, I think we can tell that the regulations were breached, i.e. the law was broken.

    If you are making a distinction between “breaking the law” and “criminal act”, that may be a level of subtlety beyond most voters’ attention.
  • bigglesbiggles Posts: 6,051
    Jonathan said:

    Why do we need to obey Boris’ laws or pay Sunak’s taxes?

    I’m right with you. You try it first, and I’ll follow about a year later, but I will lend all my (anonymous, written) support in the meantime.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,153

    Jonathan said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    I would like to thank the Tories for delivering a Labour Government.

    A labour governement getting into power is about the only thing that would make me hold my nose and vote tory, same with many others. The one thing you can guarantee with a labour government if you are working and private sector is you will be poorer at the end of it than you were at the beginning.
    oh?, do you think we will be richer when this mob are kicked out? They've got a long way to catch up with June 2019, or even June 2010!
    Well I am richer now than in the beginning of this governement. Can't say that has ever happened under labour. So are lots of people I know.
    oh really?
    Here is a clue....no one in the general populace gives a damn about gdp, they care about how many pounds are in their pocket....gdp per capita and median gdp per capita would be a far better measure.

    Since 2000 our nations gdp has trended upwards but precious little of that ended up in the pockets of the bottom 70% of the population. Going by GDP we became richer as a nation....gdp per capita not so much
    So at least 70% of the electorate are worse off since the tories have been in?
    Yeah but Pagan2 Is better off so thats all that matters to him
    I want everyone to be better off but its true that under governements whether new labour or tories the bottom 6 or 7 deciles have seen stagnating wages and falling living standards. The last couple of years this has started to change
    Are wages rising faster than inflation?
    That is not necessarily true and not quite what I said. They have more pounds in their pocket at payday because they have had a payrise finally now companies are having to compete for workers. Whether that covers cost of living is another matter. The extra pounds certainly makes them feel richer and frankly cost of living isnt the fault of this government and would have been the same whoever was in power.

    However still better to have had a payrise that doesnt meet inflation than no payrise and still have the inflation
    The extra cost of living is certainly the fault of the Government. Who else's fault is it? I don't expect our Government to throw its hands up and say 'Sorry chaps, the world is looking dicey at the moment, sorry about your living standards n' all.' - they need to find solutions.
    The world price for gas and oil is not the fault of HMG and indeed is hammering governments across the world

    I would however be interested in your suggestions how it is mitigated
    It’s like 2008 all over again, but backwards.
    I would agree with that.

    The Financial crisis in 2008 was not Gordon Brown's fault but his actions prior to the crisis made it far worse for the UK than it needed to be.

    The current Energy crisis is not Johnson's fault but his energy policies - along with those of his predecessors - have made us far more vulnerable to the crisis and far less able to ameliorate its worst effects

    In both instances we can say that the Government failed in its duty to anticipate and mitigate against world events.
    I would argue that our policies as regards renewables have helped ameliorate the crisis somewhat, but that the policies on fossil fuel extraction have been utterly disastrous, and that the current government has been no better (and in some ways worse) than its predecessors.
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 9,871
    Farooq said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Farooq said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Farooq said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    I would like to thank the Tories for delivering a Labour Government.

    A labour governement getting into power is about the only thing that would make me hold my nose and vote tory, same with many others. The one thing you can guarantee with a labour government if you are working and private sector is you will be poorer at the end of it than you were at the beginning.
    oh?, do you think we will be richer when this mob are kicked out? They've got a long way to catch up with June 2019, or even June 2010!
    Well I am richer now than in the beginning of this governement. Can't say that has ever happened under labour. So are lots of people I know.
    oh really?
    Here is a clue....no one in the general populace gives a damn about gdp, they care about how many pounds are in their pocket....gdp per capita and median gdp per capita would be a far better measure.

    Since 2000 our nations gdp has trended upwards but precious little of that ended up in the pockets of the bottom 70% of the population. Going by GDP we became richer as a nation....gdp per capita not so much
    So at least 70% of the electorate are worse off since the tories have been in?
    Yeah but Pagan2 Is better off so thats all that matters to him
    I want everyone to be better off but its true that under governements whether new labour or tories the bottom 6 or 7 deciles have seen stagnating wages and falling living standards. The last couple of years this has started to change
    Are wages rising faster than inflation?
    That is not necessarily true and not quite what I said. They have more pounds in their pocket at payday because they have had a payrise finally now companies are having to compete for workers. Whether that covers cost of living is another matter. The extra pounds certainly makes them feel richer and frankly cost of living isnt the fault of this government and would have been the same whoever was in power.

    However still better to have had a payrise that doesnt meet inflation than no payrise and still have the inflation
    "it would have been the same whoever was in power" didn't work for Labour and it won't work for you.
    I am not in power nor is any party I support or voted for so as usual you point is pointless
    I don't really care on whose behalf you're making that argument, it won't wash. It never has.
    Well as I wasn't making it on anyones behalf as I said you had no point as always
    Not even on your own behalf. You're just making an argument that not even you believe?

    And I'm the one making no point? :smiley:
    No I made a valid point, there is nothing much any governement can do about those things. Not ours, not the germans, not the dutch. Gas prices have rocketed. Covid has disrupted supply chains. Doesn't matter who is in power. That is reality. You can argue with it all you like but reality trumps fantasy and thinking any government can do anything about those things regardless of left right or even god forbid lib dem.....well thats fantasy. It was an apolitical statement of fact....but you go ahead and deny reality if it makes you feel warm and fuzzy
  • stodgestodge Posts: 13,874
    edited April 2022
    Pulpstar said:

    I hear Zelensky's men will give up the fight if Starmer, Hunt, Tugendhat or Javid gets the top job.
    Слава Boris :wink:

    I hear Putin and his forces will give up if Ed Davey gets the top job :)
  • TazTaz Posts: 14,383

    Jonathan said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    I would like to thank the Tories for delivering a Labour Government.

    A labour governement getting into power is about the only thing that would make me hold my nose and vote tory, same with many others. The one thing you can guarantee with a labour government if you are working and private sector is you will be poorer at the end of it than you were at the beginning.
    oh?, do you think we will be richer when this mob are kicked out? They've got a long way to catch up with June 2019, or even June 2010!
    Well I am richer now than in the beginning of this governement. Can't say that has ever happened under labour. So are lots of people I know.
    oh really?
    Here is a clue....no one in the general populace gives a damn about gdp, they care about how many pounds are in their pocket....gdp per capita and median gdp per capita would be a far better measure.

    Since 2000 our nations gdp has trended upwards but precious little of that ended up in the pockets of the bottom 70% of the population. Going by GDP we became richer as a nation....gdp per capita not so much
    So at least 70% of the electorate are worse off since the tories have been in?
    Yeah but Pagan2 Is better off so thats all that matters to him
    I want everyone to be better off but its true that under governements whether new labour or tories the bottom 6 or 7 deciles have seen stagnating wages and falling living standards. The last couple of years this has started to change
    Are wages rising faster than inflation?
    That is not necessarily true and not quite what I said. They have more pounds in their pocket at payday because they have had a payrise finally now companies are having to compete for workers. Whether that covers cost of living is another matter. The extra pounds certainly makes them feel richer and frankly cost of living isnt the fault of this government and would have been the same whoever was in power.

    However still better to have had a payrise that doesnt meet inflation than no payrise and still have the inflation
    The extra cost of living is certainly the fault of the Government. Who else's fault is it? I don't expect our Government to throw its hands up and say 'Sorry chaps, the world is looking dicey at the moment, sorry about your living standards n' all.' - they need to find solutions.
    The world price for gas and oil is not the fault of HMG and indeed is hammering governments across the world

    I would however be interested in your suggestions how it is mitigated
    It’s like 2008 all over again, but backwards.
    I would agree with that.

    The Financial crisis in 2008 was not Gordon Brown's fault but his actions prior to the crisis made it far worse for the UK than it needed to be.

    The current Energy crisis is not Johnson's fault but his energy policies - along with those of his predecessors - have made us far more vulnerable to the crisis and far less able to ameliorate its worst effects

    In both instances we can say that the Government failed in its duty to anticipate and mitigate against world events.
    In your view, regarding energy, is there any specific policy that was particularly damaging or is it a cumulating of things.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 21,650
    biggles said:

    Jonathan said:

    Why do we need to obey Boris’ laws or pay Sunak’s taxes?

    I’m right with you. You try it first, and I’ll follow about a year later, but I will lend all my (anonymous, written) support in the meantime.
    Bear with me. Need to get elected as Tory leader first to be guaranteed above the law.
  • something quite ominous about the silence from Rishi Sunak and his aides

    https://twitter.com/PickardJE/status/1513937974148448266

    To whom does the Chancellor of the Exchequer send his request for the Chiltern Hundreds?

    His wife's tax avoidance made excruciatingly clear. His loyalty to America made excruciatingly clear. Her stuff moved out of Downing Street to destinations unknown. His political career over. And now this humiliation. Why not walk?
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,577
    Off-topic (and on a cheerier note):

    We just spent the afternoon at the British Museum, taking the little 'un to the Stonehenge exhibition there. Thanks to everyone who recommended it - it was awesome. It kept a seven-year old enthralled for ninety minutes.

    I did see some work by Leon's predecessors on the wall... ;)

    It was great to be back in London for he first time in two and a half years, and to see it busy and bustling.
  • murali_smurali_s Posts: 3,067
    edited April 2022
    stodge said:

    Pulpstar said:

    I hear Zelensky's men will give up the fight if Starmer, Hunt, Tugendhat or Javid gets the top job.
    Слава Boris :wink:

    I hear Putin and his forces will give up if Ed Davey gets the top job :)
    O/T - Hi stodge - are you same stodge from netweather? I am saying yes! :)
  • ozymandiasozymandias Posts: 1,503
    Jonathan said:

    biggles said:

    Jonathan said:

    Why do we need to obey Boris’ laws or pay Sunak’s taxes?

    I’m right with you. You try it first, and I’ll follow about a year later, but I will lend all my (anonymous, written) support in the meantime.
    Bear with me. Need to get elected as Tory leader first to be guaranteed above the law.
    Well he demonstrably isn't above it is he? He got a FPN so the law was applied to him.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 51,821
    edited April 2022
    Leon said:

    Want to feel old?

    Little Red Corvette was released FORTY YEARS AGO

    “Move over baby, give me your keys,
    I’m gonna try and take your little red love machine”


    *huge existential sigh*

    UK Number One this week in 1982 was "Seven Tears" by Goombay Dance Band.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,083
    Just cracking open 'More Sex, Lies and the Ballot Box' (I won the first book in a PB by-election competition), and an early comment that hits home hard.

    'As for academics and deadlines, we'd asked for first drafts by 1 February. The last arrived on 19 July. By academic standards, that's almost ahead of schedule'.
  • JohnLilburneJohnLilburne Posts: 6,241

    Cyclefree said:

    DavidL said:

    It is mildly annoying how the media simply state that there has been wrongdoing as a fact now. The FPN is an offer to accept a fine. If it is not taken up the matter has to go to court and guilt or innocence is then determined. The view of the Met is simply that.

    Yes, I've noticed that. The New Statesman said this - "It’s now official. For the first time a British prime minister has been found to have committed a criminal act while in office…"

    This is simply incorrect. What the FPN says is that the police reasonably believe that a person has breached regulations and that the person can settle the matter by paying a fine. But if they do not, then the CPS must decide to start a criminal prosecution and the matter goes to the magistrates court for a decision. Only once they have decided that a breach has occurred can it be said that the PM has "been found to have committed a criminal act".

    At the risk of being really tiresomely pedantic, when fines were challenged before, the CPS found that in a very large number of cases, the police had simply got either the law or facts wrong.

    We should not rush to assume that the police have necessarily got matters right this time either. They may have. Or they may not. They were terribly confused over the difference between law and guidelines when the regulations first came out. And there are quite a few recent examples of them getting this wrong in cases other than the Covid regulations.

    So for example - in summer 2020 the regulation stated that you had to have a reasonable excuse to be outside your home. Being at work was such a reasonable excuse.

    Let's take the PM's birthday: he is at work. He has a reasonable excuse to be there.

    His wife turns up with a cake. She is not going to work. She appears to have no reasonable excuse. Ah - but is the room where she meets with him in his office or in a room which is part of their home?

    His Chancellor who works at another office also turn up. He knows it's the PM's birthday and also has work things to discuss with him. Does he have a reasonable excuse or not for being there?

    Without knowing the precise facts of these events / parties / meetings and the relevant regulations applicable at the time, how is it possible to tell whether or not the regulations were breached?

    The law empowered the police to assess whether someone has broken the legal regulations. The police carefully considered the facts of these events and the relevant regulations, apparently also consulting with the CPS. They concluded he had broken the law. Johnson has accepted their judgement. He has NOT challenged the fine. Ergo, I think we can tell that the regulations were breached, i.e. the law was broken.

    If you are making a distinction between “breaking the law” and “criminal act”, that may be a level of subtlety beyond most voters’ attention.
    If Boris has received only one FPN, for the birthday party, then presumably all the other events he attended at No 10 were legitimate work events.
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 32,521
    Pagan2 said:

    Farooq said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Farooq said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Farooq said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    I would like to thank the Tories for delivering a Labour Government.

    A labour governement getting into power is about the only thing that would make me hold my nose and vote tory, same with many others. The one thing you can guarantee with a labour government if you are working and private sector is you will be poorer at the end of it than you were at the beginning.
    oh?, do you think we will be richer when this mob are kicked out? They've got a long way to catch up with June 2019, or even June 2010!
    Well I am richer now than in the beginning of this governement. Can't say that has ever happened under labour. So are lots of people I know.
    oh really?
    Here is a clue....no one in the general populace gives a damn about gdp, they care about how many pounds are in their pocket....gdp per capita and median gdp per capita would be a far better measure.

    Since 2000 our nations gdp has trended upwards but precious little of that ended up in the pockets of the bottom 70% of the population. Going by GDP we became richer as a nation....gdp per capita not so much
    So at least 70% of the electorate are worse off since the tories have been in?
    Yeah but Pagan2 Is better off so thats all that matters to him
    I want everyone to be better off but its true that under governements whether new labour or tories the bottom 6 or 7 deciles have seen stagnating wages and falling living standards. The last couple of years this has started to change
    Are wages rising faster than inflation?
    That is not necessarily true and not quite what I said. They have more pounds in their pocket at payday because they have had a payrise finally now companies are having to compete for workers. Whether that covers cost of living is another matter. The extra pounds certainly makes them feel richer and frankly cost of living isnt the fault of this government and would have been the same whoever was in power.

    However still better to have had a payrise that doesnt meet inflation than no payrise and still have the inflation
    "it would have been the same whoever was in power" didn't work for Labour and it won't work for you.
    I am not in power nor is any party I support or voted for so as usual you point is pointless
    I don't really care on whose behalf you're making that argument, it won't wash. It never has.
    Well as I wasn't making it on anyones behalf as I said you had no point as always
    Not even on your own behalf. You're just making an argument that not even you believe?

    And I'm the one making no point? :smiley:
    No I made a valid point, there is nothing much any governement can do about those things. Not ours, not the germans, not the dutch. Gas prices have rocketed. Covid has disrupted supply chains. Doesn't matter who is in power. That is reality. You can argue with it all you like but reality trumps fantasy and thinking any government can do anything about those things regardless of left right or even god forbid lib dem.....well thats fantasy. It was an apolitical statement of fact....but you go ahead and deny reality if it makes you feel warm and fuzzy
    Well for a start they could have put energy security above political posturing on Green matters and actually allowed companies to continue drilling for oil and gas as they had done before. That would have been a good place to start.

    And this is not an argument against moving to renewables. It is an argument against getting rid of reliable existing sources of energy before the renewables are able to replace them. UK policy under successive governments has been half arsed and directed more towards pandering to public perception than actually ensuring a reliable energy supply. That responsibility lies entirely with the politicians.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,083
    edited April 2022
    Farooq said:

    The 🇬🇧 changed PM
    👉🏻four times in the war in Afghanistan
    👉🏻in the Iraq War
    👉🏻in the Gulf War
    👉🏻in the Korean War
    👉🏻in the Second World War
    👉🏻in the First World War
    👉🏻in the Second Boer War
    👉🏻in the Second Opium War
    👉🏻in the Crimean War
    👉🏻twice in the Peninsular War


    https://twitter.com/RhonddaBryant/status/1513915021239193614

    Nothing before gulf war matters as time of communication/ decision making v different

    Afghanistan and 2x gulf not existential in way Ukraine vs Russia could become
    It is stunning the lengths people will go to to try and argue that a politician who broke his own laws should not resign.

    Your arguments are, to be frank, utter bollocks.
    And the idea that the country will crumble without Boris at the tiller is frankly weird. Cultish, even.
    There are hundreds of MPs who could step up and do the job better than Boris. People who are serious and dedicated to this country, and who can do the job.
    The point is well made, though hundreds is a little optimistic, believer though I am in the harmlessness of most MPs.
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 11,052

    Cyclefree said:

    DavidL said:

    It is mildly annoying how the media simply state that there has been wrongdoing as a fact now. The FPN is an offer to accept a fine. If it is not taken up the matter has to go to court and guilt or innocence is then determined. The view of the Met is simply that.

    Yes, I've noticed that. The New Statesman said this - "It’s now official. For the first time a British prime minister has been found to have committed a criminal act while in office…"

    This is simply incorrect. What the FPN says is that the police reasonably believe that a person has breached regulations and that the person can settle the matter by paying a fine. But if they do not, then the CPS must decide to start a criminal prosecution and the matter goes to the magistrates court for a decision. Only once they have decided that a breach has occurred can it be said that the PM has "been found to have committed a criminal act".

    At the risk of being really tiresomely pedantic, when fines were challenged before, the CPS found that in a very large number of cases, the police had simply got either the law or facts wrong.

    We should not rush to assume that the police have necessarily got matters right this time either. They may have. Or they may not. They were terribly confused over the difference between law and guidelines when the regulations first came out. And there are quite a few recent examples of them getting this wrong in cases other than the Covid regulations.

    So for example - in summer 2020 the regulation stated that you had to have a reasonable excuse to be outside your home. Being at work was such a reasonable excuse.

    Let's take the PM's birthday: he is at work. He has a reasonable excuse to be there.

    His wife turns up with a cake. She is not going to work. She appears to have no reasonable excuse. Ah - but is the room where she meets with him in his office or in a room which is part of their home?

    His Chancellor who works at another office also turn up. He knows it's the PM's birthday and also has work things to discuss with him. Does he have a reasonable excuse or not for being there?

    Without knowing the precise facts of these events / parties / meetings and the relevant regulations applicable at the time, how is it possible to tell whether or not the regulations were breached?

    The law empowered the police to assess whether someone has broken the legal regulations. The police carefully considered the facts of these events and the relevant regulations, apparently also consulting with the CPS. They concluded he had broken the law. Johnson has accepted their judgement. He has NOT challenged the fine. Ergo, I think we can tell that the regulations were breached, i.e. the law was broken.

    If you are making a distinction between “breaking the law” and “criminal act”, that may be a level of subtlety beyond most voters’ attention.
    If Boris has received only one FPN, for the birthday party, then presumably all the other events he attended at No 10 were legitimate work events.
    No. The Police are working through the events one by one. They haven’t finished yet and may yet issue more FPNs, possibly including additional ones to BJ.
This discussion has been closed.