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For cabinet ministers this could be a career-defining issue – politicalbetting.com

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  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,375
    Applicant said:

    ydoethur said:

    Applicant said:

    ydoethur said:

    Applicant said:

    ydoethur said:

    Applicant said:

    ydoethur said:

    Applicant said:

    ydoethur said:

    DavidL said:

    It is mildly annoying how the media simply state that there has been wrongdoing as a fact now. The FPN is an offer to accept a fine. If it is not taken up the matter has to go to court and guilt or innocence is then determined. The view of the Met is simply that.

    You're the lawyer, not me, but surely the reason FPNs are a thing is because they cover things that either happen, or didn't?

    If you are caught on camera doing 75mph in a 60mph zone, there isn't a question of whether the offence took place. It did. Therefore, why waste the time of a court?

    Similarly, if you are photographed attending an event that was not essential for work, it took place. And was illegal. Therefore, why go to court?

    Arguably, if he gets an FPN which is presumably three figures rather than five, and AIUI does not carry a criminal record, he's getting off pretty lightly compared to others who organised parties.

    What this whole episode, coupled with Cummings, does show is how extraordinarily slack and complacent the cabinet and government were about following their own procedures. No wonder Covid was such an issue among them!
    I'm not sure the parallel works. Recotrded speed is a question of fact, whether a gathering was reasonably necessary for work a question of opinion.
    If you will explain to me the circumstances under which it is 'reasonably necessary' to serve alcohol for work purposes, or indeed to mark somebody's birthday, I will concede your point.
    If the gathering is reasonably necessary for work purposes, then serving cake and alcohol does not negate that.

    Throughout lockdown when I was in the office (which was most of the time for some people) we still got our Friday afternoon drink supplied by the company. It didn't mean we weren't working.
    That was not the way the regulations were written. The gathering should only have been for work purposes and when that was completed, it should have ended. That clearly was not the case here where work obviously stopped to allow the celebrations to happen.
    Yes. But that's still a question of opinion - even if nearly everyone's opinion is the same! That's all I'm saying!
    If toasts were being made, work had stopped.

    I have to say I cannot see how that's an opinion rather than a fact.
    Again, you're focusing on the specific gathering and my point is more general.
    You mean, like the police did?
    Yes, indeed. But by focusing on the specific gathering, you are missing my point, which is simply that by including the word "reasonably" in the regulation it makes the offence a question of opinion, unlike a strict liability offence like speeding or drunk driving - either you are over the limit or you aren't and opinion has nothing to do with it.

    I really can't see how I can make this any clearer, so I'll stop now.
    So you're saying the law was badly written?

    I think actually we may be in agreement here...
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 51,821

    Applicant said:

    RH1992 said:

    Think we might be getting a little clip from the PM soon enough according to the usually very accurate ITV News insider account.

    "Prime Minister to provide a clip at 5.30pm after Downing Street revealed he and his Chancellor had been fined."

    https://twitter.com/itvnewsinsider/status/1513903647255670785

    Meanwhile I've just been watching Sky News and became quite annoyed at the member of the medical profession they got onto speak. They claimed that the fine means that Johnson's visit to Kyiv was "clearly designed as a distraction and photo opportunity".

    I'm not Ukrainian, but I imagine it would feel pretty insulting that some prats continually seek to minimise the good work the UK has been doing because of a domestic scandal. The issues are separate and should remain so.

    When you say "member of the medical profession", I assume you mean "Labour activist"?
    Boris’s cloacal reign is turning the whole country into “Labour activists” or at least anti-Boris ones.
    Remember, I actually voted Tory in 2019!
  • ApplicantApplicant Posts: 3,379
    Heathener said:

    Applicant said:

    RH1992 said:

    Think we might be getting a little clip from the PM soon enough according to the usually very accurate ITV News insider account.

    "Prime Minister to provide a clip at 5.30pm after Downing Street revealed he and his Chancellor had been fined."

    https://twitter.com/itvnewsinsider/status/1513903647255670785

    Meanwhile I've just been watching Sky News and became quite annoyed at the member of the medical profession they got onto speak. They claimed that the fine means that Johnson's visit to Kyiv was "clearly designed as a distraction and photo opportunity".

    I'm not Ukrainian, but I imagine it would feel pretty insulting that some prats continually seek to minimise the good work the UK has been doing because of a domestic scandal. The issues are separate and should remain so.

    When you say "member of the medical profession", I assume you mean "Labour activist"?
    You accused me of trolling, which you did by way of completely altering my words in a quote, but as has so often been observed, those who are ready to dish out such opprobrium are often least able to defend themselves.

    So the question is to be posed: are you sitting inside CCHQ? Do you work for Boris Johnson?

    It's the only explanation for your sycophantic attempt to defend the indefensible.
    Re-read all my posts on the subject today going back to the last thread, read them and understand them. You clearly haven't.

    And now I shall stop feeding the troll.
  • SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 17,559
    The "defense" of Boris Johnson on PB today is absolutely hilarious. Wonderful parody.
  • TazTaz Posts: 14,383
    Leon said:

    A bald statement of the fucking facts.


    Why on earth should we care about the political opinion of some enormously fat guy who writes (rather well) about RESTAURANTS

    Even more, why bother retweeting it?

    Got allt of time for Jay Rayner. He doesn’t just write about London restaurants but knows there is a world outside of London.

    He’s said some very nice things about some very nice places in the north east.
  • ApplicantApplicant Posts: 3,379
    ydoethur said:

    Applicant said:

    ydoethur said:

    Applicant said:

    ydoethur said:

    Applicant said:

    ydoethur said:

    Applicant said:

    ydoethur said:

    Applicant said:

    ydoethur said:

    DavidL said:

    It is mildly annoying how the media simply state that there has been wrongdoing as a fact now. The FPN is an offer to accept a fine. If it is not taken up the matter has to go to court and guilt or innocence is then determined. The view of the Met is simply that.

    You're the lawyer, not me, but surely the reason FPNs are a thing is because they cover things that either happen, or didn't?

    If you are caught on camera doing 75mph in a 60mph zone, there isn't a question of whether the offence took place. It did. Therefore, why waste the time of a court?

    Similarly, if you are photographed attending an event that was not essential for work, it took place. And was illegal. Therefore, why go to court?

    Arguably, if he gets an FPN which is presumably three figures rather than five, and AIUI does not carry a criminal record, he's getting off pretty lightly compared to others who organised parties.

    What this whole episode, coupled with Cummings, does show is how extraordinarily slack and complacent the cabinet and government were about following their own procedures. No wonder Covid was such an issue among them!
    I'm not sure the parallel works. Recotrded speed is a question of fact, whether a gathering was reasonably necessary for work a question of opinion.
    If you will explain to me the circumstances under which it is 'reasonably necessary' to serve alcohol for work purposes, or indeed to mark somebody's birthday, I will concede your point.
    If the gathering is reasonably necessary for work purposes, then serving cake and alcohol does not negate that.

    Throughout lockdown when I was in the office (which was most of the time for some people) we still got our Friday afternoon drink supplied by the company. It didn't mean we weren't working.
    That was not the way the regulations were written. The gathering should only have been for work purposes and when that was completed, it should have ended. That clearly was not the case here where work obviously stopped to allow the celebrations to happen.
    Yes. But that's still a question of opinion - even if nearly everyone's opinion is the same! That's all I'm saying!
    If toasts were being made, work had stopped.

    I have to say I cannot see how that's an opinion rather than a fact.
    Again, you're focusing on the specific gathering and my point is more general.
    You mean, like the police did?
    Yes, indeed. But by focusing on the specific gathering, you are missing my point, which is simply that by including the word "reasonably" in the regulation it makes the offence a question of opinion, unlike a strict liability offence like speeding or drunk driving - either you are over the limit or you aren't and opinion has nothing to do with it.

    I really can't see how I can make this any clearer, so I'll stop now.
    So you're saying the law was badly written?

    I think actually we may be in agreement here...
    Pretty much, yes.
  • RogerRoger Posts: 19,908
    edited April 2022
    I note that some of the PB Tories are thinking he may get away with it........

    Starting at 17.05 but 17.06 is the killer

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/live:bbc_radio_fourfm
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,083
    edited April 2022
    Leon said:

    kle4 said:

    'But Ukraine' is going to be the new 'But Vaccines' isn't it?

    Boris is an arse and should go, and would go, if the world was behaving "normally"

    HOWEVER there IS an argument for saying This is not the time

    Boris clearly has a good relationship with Zelenskyy, and Ukraine is an almost overwhelmingly important issue, right now, an issue which might take us to the brink of nuclear war

    Is this really the best juncture to be having leadership contests to replace the PM?

    It's not. It will be deeply frustrating to Boris-haters, who must feel they have got their man, but I sense the Tory party has neither the energy nor appetite to defenestrate Boris in the middle of this enormous crisis

    I don't think they do have the appetite (and I don't think they would if the world was behaving normally either), but I just do not agree that a leadership contest affects anything on that issue. For one, he could stay as PM but resign as party leader, with a view to being replaced as PM by whoever wins the subsequent contest, so it would not affect the Ukrainian issue at all. Once a new PM is in place they could even let Boris take the lead on Ukrainian relations.
  • HeathenerHeathener Posts: 7,084

    The "defense" of Boris Johnson on PB today is absolutely hilarious. Wonderful parody.

    Truly is.

    I get criticised for speaking of the right wing coterie on here but it is, genuinely, gobsmacking today.

    The worst part is how unaware they appear to be about how fantastically unrepresentative they are of the general populus.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    Steinmeier not looking happy having received news of 🇺🇦 blocking trip:
    Says he wanted to send "strong signal of 🇪🇺 solidarity" alongside presidents of Baltics & Poland.
    "I was ready but apparently (and I need to take note) this was not desired in Kyiv".


    https://twitter.com/thorstenbenner/status/1513898676460359682
  • ozymandiasozymandias Posts: 1,503
    Heathener said:

    The "defense" of Boris Johnson on PB today is absolutely hilarious. Wonderful parody.

    Truly is.

    I get criticised for speaking of the right wing coterie on here but it is, genuinely, gobsmacking today.

    The worst part is how unaware they appear to be about how fantastically unrepresentative they are of the general populus.
    And you are presumably?
  • StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 8,243
    Carnyx said:

    Applicant said:

    Carnyx said:

    Applicant said:

    Applicant said:

    ydoethur said:

    Applicant said:

    ydoethur said:

    DavidL said:

    It is mildly annoying how the media simply state that there has been wrongdoing as a fact now. The FPN is an offer to accept a fine. If it is not taken up the matter has to go to court and guilt or innocence is then determined. The view of the Met is simply that.

    You're the lawyer, not me, but surely the reason FPNs are a thing is because they cover things that either happen, or didn't?

    If you are caught on camera doing 75mph in a 60mph zone, there isn't a question of whether the offence took place. It did. Therefore, why waste the time of a court?

    Similarly, if you are photographed attending an event that was not essential for work, it took place. And was illegal. Therefore, why go to court?

    Arguably, if he gets an FPN which is presumably three figures rather than five, and AIUI does not carry a criminal record, he's getting off pretty lightly compared to others who organised parties.

    What this whole episode, coupled with Cummings, does show is how extraordinarily slack and complacent the cabinet and government were about following their own procedures. No wonder Covid was such an issue among them!
    I'm not sure the parallel works. Recotrded speed is a question of fact, whether a gathering was reasonably necessary for work a question of opinion.
    If you will explain to me the circumstances under which it is 'reasonably necessary' to serve alcohol for work purposes, or indeed to mark somebody's birthday, I will concede your point.
    If the gathering is reasonably necessary for work purposes, then serving cake and alcohol does not negate that.

    Throughout lockdown when I was in the office (which was most of the time for some people) we still got our Friday afternoon drink supplied by the company. It didn't mean we weren't working.
    Did someone's spouse turn up with a cake every Friday too?
    When there was someone's brthday, there was cake. Reference to "someone's spouse" shows you haven't quite grasped the point I was making (see: this comment).
    But your cakes were presumably sans spouse. Whether in, on, or holding them.
    Yes... that's my point...
    And mine too. Spouse = not work. Cake = not in itself crucial, but importantly illuminating the nature of the event together with other things going on, such as spouses or folk from other depts/offices.
    It does seem a little unfair.., 29 people having a proper work even… the PMs wife turns up by surprise and suddenly everyone is guilty of breaking the law.

    What do you do? Walk out and look churlish/rude/non-team player/ruin your career or stay?

    I think that Carrie is the only one who should be punished unless others knew in advance…
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,957
    edited April 2022
    On the key issue of whether restaurant reviewers are qualified to comment or rather should be taken heed of when they comment on current affairs and politics it seems they have form. AA Gill, Jan Moir, Giles Coren, Rayner all started off as restaurant critics and then "graduated" to the Comment pages. I'm sure there are one or two more of the lesser type.

    They believe that because they write well, talk about good bread and know their char siu bau from their har gau they can opine upon matters of the day. Baffling.
  • SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 17,559
    . . . meanwhile back at the race . . . some upcoming very special US congressional elections (via Politico.com):

    California's 22nd (runoff June 7): This race is to replace former Rep. Devin Nunes (R-Calif.), who left Congress to run the Trump Media & Technology Group. Connie Conway, the former California Assembly Republican Leader, and Democrat Lourin Hubbard advanced to the runoff. But this district's boundaries changed radically in redistricting — neither Conway nor Hubbard will seek a full term — so this will be a short-term gig.

    Minnesota's 1st (Aug. 9): There's a May 24 primary and Aug. 9 general election to replace the late-Rep. Jim Hagedorn (R-Minn.), who passed away from cancer on Feb. 17. There are 20 contenders. On the GOP side, most prominent are state Reps. Nels Pierson and Jeremy Munson, as well as Jennifer Carnahan, the (controversial) former state Republican chair and Hagedorn's wife. For the Democrats in this red-trending seat, there's ethics lawyer Richard Painter and Jeffrey Ettinger, the former CEO of Hormel.

    Alaska at-large (Aug. 16): Voters will pick the successor to the late Rep. Don Young (R-Alaska) through a June 11 primary followed by the Aug. 16 special election. That special will be the first test of the state's new ranked-choice voting system (the top four vote recipients advance out of the primary regardless of party — and then will be ranked in order of preference). If you thought 20 candidates was a lot then steel yourself; this race has a field of nearly 50 people. Sarah Palin has dominated much of the national focus, but there are a bunch of notables: Republican Nick Begich III, the Republican son of a famous political family; Independent Al Gross, who sought the Senate seat in 2020; Tara Sweeney, a former Trump administration official and (no joke!) Santa Claus of North Pole, Alaska.

    Nebraska's 1st (June 28): They're moving quickly in Nebraska following Rep. Jeff Fortenberry's (R-Neb.) resignation stemming from felony convictions on March 31. The parties picked two state senators — Republican Mike Flood and Democrat Patty Pansing Brooks — as their nominees for the June 28 contest. This is pretty red turf so the Republicans will be favored to hold the seat.

    Texas' 34th (June 14): This is probably the most interesting contest. Rep. Filemon Vela Jr. (D-Texas) resigned this seat, where Republicans made significant inroads with Hispanic voters in 2020, on March 31. The special contest will take place under the old GOP-friendly lines (the seat got bluer in redistricting), but the Republican candidate in November, Mayra Flores, also plans to run in the special. Rep. Vicente Gonzalez (D-Texas) will run for the seat in the fall, but not in the special. Republicans would love to score a flip here, cementing the progress they've made in south Texas. Democrat Daniel Sanchez, a former Cameron County commissioner, announced a bid for the seat in the special last week.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,277
    Taz said:

    Leon said:

    A bald statement of the fucking facts.


    Why on earth should we care about the political opinion of some enormously fat guy who writes (rather well) about RESTAURANTS

    Even more, why bother retweeting it?

    Got allt of time for Jay Rayner. He doesn’t just write about London restaurants but knows there is a world outside of London.

    He’s said some very nice things about some very nice places in the north east.
    Rayner is an excellent restaurant critic; my favourite after Tim Hayward on the FT (who is almost a genius)

    But his relentless bien pensant leftwing dribbling on Twitter is deeply irritating. Please not on PB as well

    I can, likewise, generally do without Giles Coren's political opinions from the other side


  • HeathenerHeathener Posts: 7,084
    Applicant said:

    Heathener said:

    Applicant said:

    RH1992 said:

    Think we might be getting a little clip from the PM soon enough according to the usually very accurate ITV News insider account.

    "Prime Minister to provide a clip at 5.30pm after Downing Street revealed he and his Chancellor had been fined."

    https://twitter.com/itvnewsinsider/status/1513903647255670785

    Meanwhile I've just been watching Sky News and became quite annoyed at the member of the medical profession they got onto speak. They claimed that the fine means that Johnson's visit to Kyiv was "clearly designed as a distraction and photo opportunity".

    I'm not Ukrainian, but I imagine it would feel pretty insulting that some prats continually seek to minimise the good work the UK has been doing because of a domestic scandal. The issues are separate and should remain so.

    When you say "member of the medical profession", I assume you mean "Labour activist"?
    You accused me of trolling, which you did by way of completely altering my words in a quote, but as has so often been observed, those who are ready to dish out such opprobrium are often least able to defend themselves.

    So the question is to be posed: are you sitting inside CCHQ? Do you work for Boris Johnson?

    It's the only explanation for your sycophantic attempt to defend the indefensible.
    Re-read all my posts on the subject today going back to the last thread, read them and understand them. You clearly haven't.

    And now I shall stop feeding the troll.
    I don't have the time so, no, I won't. I've seen what I've read and it's enough to see you defending the indefensible.

    I am not a troll and you must be one of the last remaining ones to think I am. It's the weakest argument of a very weak man. You can't engage or debate with someone who thinks outside your miniscule worldview so you resort to the only argument left to you, the same as a primary aged child, by effectively sticking your fingers into your ears and shouting nah nah nah nah.

    It amuses rather than angers me because it's so feeble.

    Have a nice evening.
  • Stark_DawningStark_Dawning Posts: 9,679
    kle4 said:

    Leon said:

    kle4 said:

    'But Ukraine' is going to be the new 'But Vaccines' isn't it?

    Boris is an arse and should go, and would go, if the world was behaving "normally"

    HOWEVER there IS an argument for saying This is not the time

    Boris clearly has a good relationship with Zelenskyy, and Ukraine is an almost overwhelmingly important issue, right now, an issue which might take us to the brink of nuclear war

    Is this really the best juncture to be having leadership contests to replace the PM?

    It's not. It will be deeply frustrating to Boris-haters, who must feel they have got their man, but I sense the Tory party has neither the energy nor appetite to defenestrate Boris in the middle of this enormous crisis

    I don't think they do have the appetite (and I don't think they would if the world was behaving normally either), but I just do not agree that a leadership contest affects anything on that issue. For one, he could stay as PM but resign as party leader, with a view to being replaced as PM by whoever wins the subsequent contest, so it would not affect the Ukrainian issue at all. Once a new PM is in place they could even let Boris take the lead on Ukrainian relations.
    How long do we have to keep Boris in place as 'the only man remotely qualified to deal with the Ukraine crisis'? The war could go on for years.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,812
    Where is this statement?
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,083
    Pagan2 said:

    Absolutely no fan of Boris and the conservatives as some may have noticed. However really don't think the lying thing is going to have any cut through with the general public. Most people that are not as politically tuned in as those here assume if a politician of any political persuasion is moving their lips they are lying.

    Whether it cuts through is immaterial. Lots of things do not cut through but are still important.

    People assume politicians lie all the time but in fact they are wrong and lying is quite rare (though they will obfuscate, spin and omit to a greater or lesser degree).

    Lying should still matter. As should severe incompetence - and those are the two options available to Boris and Rishi.

    That they will get away with it is neither here nor there.
  • RogerRoger Posts: 19,908
    Heathener said:

    Applicant said:

    RH1992 said:

    Think we might be getting a little clip from the PM soon enough according to the usually very accurate ITV News insider account.

    "Prime Minister to provide a clip at 5.30pm after Downing Street revealed he and his Chancellor had been fined."

    https://twitter.com/itvnewsinsider/status/1513903647255670785

    Meanwhile I've just been watching Sky News and became quite annoyed at the member of the medical profession they got onto speak. They claimed that the fine means that Johnson's visit to Kyiv was "clearly designed as a distraction and photo opportunity".

    I'm not Ukrainian, but I imagine it would feel pretty insulting that some prats continually seek to minimise the good work the UK has been doing because of a domestic scandal. The issues are separate and should remain so.

    When you say "member of the medical profession", I assume you mean "Labour activist"?
    You accused me of trolling, which you did by way of completely altering my words in a quote, but as has so often been observed, those who are ready to dish out such opprobrium are often least able to defend themselves.

    So the question is to be posed: are you sitting inside CCHQ? Do you work for Boris Johnson?

    It's the only explanation for your sycophantic attempt to defend the indefensible.
    He's not the only one but to be fair the PB Tories are-unusually-struggling to find a quorum!
  • If a Labour PM had done this PB Tories would be calling for his head.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,812
    Scott_xP said:

    ...

    Oh that is brilliant.
  • TazTaz Posts: 14,383
    Heathener said:

    The "defense" of Boris Johnson on PB today is absolutely hilarious. Wonderful parody.

    Truly is.

    I get criticised for speaking of the right wing coterie on here but it is, genuinely, gobsmacking today.

    The worst part is how unaware they appear to be about how fantastically unrepresentative they are of the general populus.
    Everyone is right wing according to you. Even left wingers like foxy.
  • ozymandiasozymandias Posts: 1,503

    If a Labour PM had done this PB Tories would be calling for his head.

    Thankfully Labour haven't had a PM for a looooooong time.
  • Heathener said:

    The "defense" of Boris Johnson on PB today is absolutely hilarious. Wonderful parody.

    Truly is.

    I get criticised for speaking of the right wing coterie on here but it is, genuinely, gobsmacking today.

    The worst part is how unaware they appear to be about how fantastically unrepresentative they are of the general populus.
    It seems the conservative poll about 34/35% though this may well fall, but you dismiss the ability of the conservative party to change when circumstances dictate to retain power at your peril
  • HeathenerHeathener Posts: 7,084
    Leon said:

    Taz said:

    Leon said:

    A bald statement of the fucking facts.


    Why on earth should we care about the political opinion of some enormously fat guy who writes (rather well) about RESTAURANTS

    Even more, why bother retweeting it?

    Got allt of time for Jay Rayner. He doesn’t just write about London restaurants but knows there is a world outside of London.

    He’s said some very nice things about some very nice places in the north east.
    Rayner is an excellent restaurant critic; my favourite after Tim Hayward on the FT (who is almost a genius)

    But his relentless bien pensant leftwing dribbling on Twitter is deeply irritating. Please not on PB as well

    I can, likewise, generally do without Giles Coren's political opinions from the other side


    If we add Daniel Hannan and Owen Jones to the list, I'd agree to that. Both embittered fools, from right and left.
  • If a Labour PM had done this PB Tories would be calling for his head.

    Absolutely - it is politics
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    Heathener said:

    Applicant said:

    Heathener said:

    Applicant said:

    RH1992 said:

    Think we might be getting a little clip from the PM soon enough according to the usually very accurate ITV News insider account.

    "Prime Minister to provide a clip at 5.30pm after Downing Street revealed he and his Chancellor had been fined."

    https://twitter.com/itvnewsinsider/status/1513903647255670785

    Meanwhile I've just been watching Sky News and became quite annoyed at the member of the medical profession they got onto speak. They claimed that the fine means that Johnson's visit to Kyiv was "clearly designed as a distraction and photo opportunity".

    I'm not Ukrainian, but I imagine it would feel pretty insulting that some prats continually seek to minimise the good work the UK has been doing because of a domestic scandal. The issues are separate and should remain so.

    When you say "member of the medical profession", I assume you mean "Labour activist"?
    You accused me of trolling, which you did by way of completely altering my words in a quote, but as has so often been observed, those who are ready to dish out such opprobrium are often least able to defend themselves.

    So the question is to be posed: are you sitting inside CCHQ? Do you work for Boris Johnson?

    It's the only explanation for your sycophantic attempt to defend the indefensible.
    Re-read all my posts on the subject today going back to the last thread, read them and understand them. You clearly haven't.

    And now I shall stop feeding the troll.
    You can't engage or debate with someone who thinks outside your miniscule worldview so you resort to the only argument left to you, the same as a primary aged child, by effectively sticking your fingers into your ears and shouting nah nah nah nah.
    Do you count "self-awareness" among your strengths?
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,277
    edited April 2022
    TOPPING said:

    On the key issue of whether restaurant reviewers are qualified to comment or rather should be taken heed of when they comment on current affairs and politics it seems they have form. AA Gill, Jan Moir, Giles Coren, Rayner all started off as restaurant critics and then "graduated" to the Comment pages. I'm sure there are one or two more of the lesser type.

    They believe that because they write well, talk about good bread and know their char siu bau from their har gau they can opine upon matters of the day. Baffling.

    I can tolerate it if they actually write clever and insightful ARTICLES with fresh, well-informed political perspectives. And there are writers who start in one niche genre then successfully branch out into politics. Fair enough.

    But social media celebs generally don't do this. They just tweet, or maybe rant. When has Gary Lineker ever done anything more than tweet the latest right-on political view of the day, from his million pound BBC job?

    It is a minor irritant of modern life, but still an irritant
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 11,052
    DavidL said:

    It is mildly annoying how the media simply state that there has been wrongdoing as a fact now. The FPN is an offer to accept a fine. If it is not taken up the matter has to go to court and guilt or innocence is then determined. The view of the Met is simply that.

    The police were given the power by law to decide on these matters. It’s not just a “view”. The Johnsons and Sunak can refuse to pay if they consider themselves innocent. So far, it appears that they are not going to do that, so they are accepting the decision.
  • mwadamsmwadams Posts: 3,590
    Leon said:

    Taz said:

    Leon said:

    A bald statement of the fucking facts.


    Why on earth should we care about the political opinion of some enormously fat guy who writes (rather well) about RESTAURANTS

    Even more, why bother retweeting it?

    Got allt of time for Jay Rayner. He doesn’t just write about London restaurants but knows there is a world outside of London.

    He’s said some very nice things about some very nice places in the north east.
    Rayner is an excellent restaurant critic; my favourite after Tim Hayward on the FT (who is almost a genius)

    But his relentless bien pensant leftwing dribbling on Twitter is deeply irritating. Please not on PB as well

    I can, likewise, generally do without Giles Coren's political opinions from the other side


    Thumbs up for Tim. Worth the price of the FT sub for his writing, and a lovely human to boot.
  • ApplicantApplicant Posts: 3,379
    .
    Roger said:

    Heathener said:

    Applicant said:

    RH1992 said:

    Think we might be getting a little clip from the PM soon enough according to the usually very accurate ITV News insider account.

    "Prime Minister to provide a clip at 5.30pm after Downing Street revealed he and his Chancellor had been fined."

    https://twitter.com/itvnewsinsider/status/1513903647255670785

    Meanwhile I've just been watching Sky News and became quite annoyed at the member of the medical profession they got onto speak. They claimed that the fine means that Johnson's visit to Kyiv was "clearly designed as a distraction and photo opportunity".

    I'm not Ukrainian, but I imagine it would feel pretty insulting that some prats continually seek to minimise the good work the UK has been doing because of a domestic scandal. The issues are separate and should remain so.

    When you say "member of the medical profession", I assume you mean "Labour activist"?
    You accused me of trolling, which you did by way of completely altering my words in a quote, but as has so often been observed, those who are ready to dish out such opprobrium are often least able to defend themselves.

    So the question is to be posed: are you sitting inside CCHQ? Do you work for Boris Johnson?

    It's the only explanation for your sycophantic attempt to defend the indefensible.
    He's not the only one but to be fair the PB Tories are-unusually-struggling to find a quorum!
    I think most actual Tories and other centrist and right-leaning posters have been critical of Boris, actually, if you read across the last thread and this one. HY has been quiet, of course, but that's only to be expected.
  • felixfelix Posts: 15,164
    Pagan2 said:

    Absolutely no fan of Boris and the conservatives as some may have noticed. However really don't think the lying thing is going to have any cut through with the general public. Most people that are not as politically tuned in as those here assume if a politician of any political persuasion is moving their lips they are lying.

    Likewise - I'd prefer him gone because I think it would be better electorally for the party. Almost all the people on the street ever say about politicians is barely printable. I actually think their attitude is pretty sensible on the whole.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,083

    The 🇬🇧 changed PM
    👉🏻four times in the war in Afghanistan
    👉🏻in the Iraq War
    👉🏻in the Gulf War
    👉🏻in the Korean War
    👉🏻in the Second World War
    👉🏻in the First World War
    👉🏻in the Second Boer War
    👉🏻in the Second Opium War
    👉🏻in the Crimean War
    👉🏻twice in the Peninsular War


    https://twitter.com/RhonddaBryant/status/1513915021239193614

    It really is remarkable how unsustainable the argument is re Ukraine, yet Tory MPs are banking everything on it and acting like it is absurd that anyone could ever contemplate such a thing.
  • TazTaz Posts: 14,383
    Leon said:

    Taz said:

    Leon said:

    A bald statement of the fucking facts.


    Why on earth should we care about the political opinion of some enormously fat guy who writes (rather well) about RESTAURANTS

    Even more, why bother retweeting it?

    Got allt of time for Jay Rayner. He doesn’t just write about London restaurants but knows there is a world outside of London.

    He’s said some very nice things about some very nice places in the north east.
    Rayner is an excellent restaurant critic; my favourite after Tim Hayward on the FT (who is almost a genius)

    But his relentless bien pensant leftwing dribbling on Twitter is deeply irritating. Please not on PB as well

    I can, likewise, generally do without Giles Coren's political opinions from the other side


    It’s not unusual for people who have careers in the media. Chef Tom Kerridge seems to have gone down that route as well. Gary Lineker is probably the best example who has gone from being a total bellend laughed at for stories in popbitch, like the claim he was suing his sons former school for his poor exam results, to a right on supporter of the right causes. Adored by an army of fluffers on Twitter.
  • Apparently Boris is to make a statement this evening

    In the middle of Real Madrid v Chelsea ?
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 51,821
    Jeez! Fabricant looks just like a third rate Boris impersonator :lol:
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,375

    The 🇬🇧 changed PM
    👉🏻four times in the war in Afghanistan
    👉🏻in the Iraq War
    👉🏻in the Gulf War
    👉🏻in the Korean War
    👉🏻in the Second World War
    👉🏻in the First World War
    👉🏻in the Second Boer War
    👉🏻in the Second Opium War
    👉🏻in the Crimean War
    👉🏻twice in the Peninsular War


    https://twitter.com/RhonddaBryant/status/1513915021239193614

    Should note we changed PMs twice during the Second World War as well...
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830
    Applicant said:

    Heathener said:

    Applicant said:

    RH1992 said:

    Think we might be getting a little clip from the PM soon enough according to the usually very accurate ITV News insider account.

    "Prime Minister to provide a clip at 5.30pm after Downing Street revealed he and his Chancellor had been fined."

    https://twitter.com/itvnewsinsider/status/1513903647255670785

    Meanwhile I've just been watching Sky News and became quite annoyed at the member of the medical profession they got onto speak. They claimed that the fine means that Johnson's visit to Kyiv was "clearly designed as a distraction and photo opportunity".

    I'm not Ukrainian, but I imagine it would feel pretty insulting that some prats continually seek to minimise the good work the UK has been doing because of a domestic scandal. The issues are separate and should remain so.

    When you say "member of the medical profession", I assume you mean "Labour activist"?
    You accused me of trolling, which you did by way of completely altering my words in a quote, but as has so often been observed, those who are ready to dish out such opprobrium are often least able to defend themselves.

    So the question is to be posed: are you sitting inside CCHQ? Do you work for Boris Johnson?

    It's the only explanation for your sycophantic attempt to defend the indefensible.
    Re-read all my posts on the subject today going back to the last thread, read them and understand them. You clearly haven't.

    And now I shall stop feeding the troll.
    Nor has anyone else, because they are incoherent drivel

    Heathener is not a troll

    Constructive discourse over the internet is a bit harder than parading a string of tedious cliches of the ftfy/heavy lifting/don't feed the troll type.
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 17,218

    The 🇬🇧 changed PM
    👉🏻four times in the war in Afghanistan
    👉🏻in the Iraq War
    👉🏻in the Gulf War
    👉🏻in the Korean War
    👉🏻in the Second World War
    👉🏻in the First World War
    👉🏻in the Second Boer War
    👉🏻in the Second Opium War
    👉🏻in the Crimean War
    👉🏻twice in the Peninsular War


    https://twitter.com/RhonddaBryant/status/1513915021239193614

    Put like that, when was the last substantial war when the UK didn't change PM?

    Falklands, I guess... before that?
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    Nad's taken her time:

    PM has been clear about what happened on 19th June 2020 & offered a full apology. It was a brief gathering in the Cabinet Room, less than 10 minutes during a busy working day. PM is at his best when delivering on the priorities of the British people which he will continue to do.

    https://twitter.com/NadineDorries/status/1513915004164227079
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 11,052
    Applicant said:

    ydoethur said:

    Applicant said:

    ydoethur said:

    DavidL said:

    It is mildly annoying how the media simply state that there has been wrongdoing as a fact now. The FPN is an offer to accept a fine. If it is not taken up the matter has to go to court and guilt or innocence is then determined. The view of the Met is simply that.

    You're the lawyer, not me, but surely the reason FPNs are a thing is because they cover things that either happen, or didn't?

    If you are caught on camera doing 75mph in a 60mph zone, there isn't a question of whether the offence took place. It did. Therefore, why waste the time of a court?

    Similarly, if you are photographed attending an event that was not essential for work, it took place. And was illegal. Therefore, why go to court?

    Arguably, if he gets an FPN which is presumably three figures rather than five, and AIUI does not carry a criminal record, he's getting off pretty lightly compared to others who organised parties.

    What this whole episode, coupled with Cummings, does show is how extraordinarily slack and complacent the cabinet and government were about following their own procedures. No wonder Covid was such an issue among them!
    I'm not sure the parallel works. Recotrded speed is a question of fact, whether a gathering was reasonably necessary for work a question of opinion.
    If you will explain to me the circumstances under which it is 'reasonably necessary' to serve alcohol for work purposes, or indeed to mark somebody's birthday, I will concede your point.
    If the gathering is reasonably necessary for work purposes, then serving cake and alcohol does not negate that.

    Throughout lockdown when I was in the office (which was most of the time for some people) we still got our Friday afternoon drink supplied by the company. It didn't mean we weren't working.
    Did spouses attend too?
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,277
    Heathener said:

    Leon said:

    Taz said:

    Leon said:

    A bald statement of the fucking facts.


    Why on earth should we care about the political opinion of some enormously fat guy who writes (rather well) about RESTAURANTS

    Even more, why bother retweeting it?

    Got allt of time for Jay Rayner. He doesn’t just write about London restaurants but knows there is a world outside of London.

    He’s said some very nice things about some very nice places in the north east.
    Rayner is an excellent restaurant critic; my favourite after Tim Hayward on the FT (who is almost a genius)

    But his relentless bien pensant leftwing dribbling on Twitter is deeply irritating. Please not on PB as well

    I can, likewise, generally do without Giles Coren's political opinions from the other side


    If we add Daniel Hannan and Owen Jones to the list, I'd agree to that. Both embittered fools, from right and left.
    Disagree. Hannan is, for a start, actually a politician, one of the most pivotal of our age given his role in Brexit. He is also very clever and speaks and writes well. Owen Jones is a political journalist and thinker, highly influential, he is likewise clever and also writes well and is good on TV - and he often brings an interesting perspective

    Clearly I agree more with Hannan than Jones, but I want to hear both of them. They know what they are talking about.

    Matthew Le Tissier, not so much. By all means let him tweet away, but please don't bring him on PB

  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 9,871

    Pagan2 said:

    Absolutely no fan of Boris and the conservatives as some may have noticed. However really don't think the lying thing is going to have any cut through with the general public. Most people that are not as politically tuned in as those here assume if a politician of any political persuasion is moving their lips they are lying.

    Ed Davey seems to have forgotten the lib dems promise on tuition fees which was summarily ignored
    I am personally coming to the opinion that democracy is failing in this and most countries. Not because of the view of one man one vote but because of the people it attracts to run for office. We see this demonstrated in the falling trust for politicians amongst the public and political institutions like the police and courts
  • RogerRoger Posts: 19,908
    DavidL said:

    Scott_xP said:

    ...

    Oh that is brilliant.
    One of his best but not recent. I'm sure I've seen it before
  • bigglesbiggles Posts: 6,051
    edited April 2022
    Two things can be true at the same time:

    1) The PM should go, having been caught by his own laws.

    2) Those laws were clearly bonkers if they caught a small gathering to sing happy birthday during the working day by those who had to be there. We should never allow them to replicated.

    The PM is, of course, as responsible for the latter as the former.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    ydoethur said:

    The 🇬🇧 changed PM
    👉🏻four times in the war in Afghanistan
    👉🏻in the Iraq War
    👉🏻in the Gulf War
    👉🏻in the Korean War
    👉🏻in the Second World War
    👉🏻in the First World War
    👉🏻in the Second Boer War
    👉🏻in the Second Opium War
    👉🏻in the Crimean War
    👉🏻twice in the Peninsular War


    https://twitter.com/RhonddaBryant/status/1513915021239193614

    Should note we changed PMs twice during the Second World War as well...
    And emphatically dumped a very successful one too.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,375
    edited April 2022

    The 🇬🇧 changed PM
    👉🏻four times in the war in Afghanistan
    👉🏻in the Iraq War
    👉🏻in the Gulf War
    👉🏻in the Korean War
    👉🏻in the Second World War
    👉🏻in the First World War
    👉🏻in the Second Boer War
    👉🏻in the Second Opium War
    👉🏻in the Crimean War
    👉🏻twice in the Peninsular War


    https://twitter.com/RhonddaBryant/status/1513915021239193614

    Put like that, when was the last substantial war when the UK didn't change PM?

    Falklands, I guess... before that?
    The Second Matabele War of 1896-97 would be one, but I'm not sure it would be the last one.

    Edit - I have overlooked the obvious one. The Irish War of Independence 1918-22.
  • felixfelix Posts: 15,164

    If a Labour PM had done this PB Tories would be calling for his head.

    You must be new to this politics game.
  • Nad's taken her time:

    PM has been clear about what happened on 19th June 2020 & offered a full apology. It was a brief gathering in the Cabinet Room, less than 10 minutes during a busy working day. PM is at his best when delivering on the priorities of the British people which he will continue to do.

    https://twitter.com/NadineDorries/status/1513915004164227079

    Hostage to fortune if more fines come along
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,921
    When many Tory activists are also councillors seeking to hold their seats of course they will be working to get their vote out
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,277
    mwadams said:

    Leon said:

    Taz said:

    Leon said:

    A bald statement of the fucking facts.


    Why on earth should we care about the political opinion of some enormously fat guy who writes (rather well) about RESTAURANTS

    Even more, why bother retweeting it?

    Got allt of time for Jay Rayner. He doesn’t just write about London restaurants but knows there is a world outside of London.

    He’s said some very nice things about some very nice places in the north east.
    Rayner is an excellent restaurant critic; my favourite after Tim Hayward on the FT (who is almost a genius)

    But his relentless bien pensant leftwing dribbling on Twitter is deeply irritating. Please not on PB as well

    I can, likewise, generally do without Giles Coren's political opinions from the other side


    Thumbs up for Tim. Worth the price of the FT sub for his writing, and a lovely human to boot.
    I am glad to hear Hayward is a nice guy. Comes across that way in his writing

    He manages to be super informative, witty, and elegant, and he can criticise without being a mean old git (which was A A Gill's failing: Gill was too much the sharp tongued bitch, at times)

  • ApplicantApplicant Posts: 3,379

    Applicant said:

    ydoethur said:

    Applicant said:

    ydoethur said:

    DavidL said:

    It is mildly annoying how the media simply state that there has been wrongdoing as a fact now. The FPN is an offer to accept a fine. If it is not taken up the matter has to go to court and guilt or innocence is then determined. The view of the Met is simply that.

    You're the lawyer, not me, but surely the reason FPNs are a thing is because they cover things that either happen, or didn't?

    If you are caught on camera doing 75mph in a 60mph zone, there isn't a question of whether the offence took place. It did. Therefore, why waste the time of a court?

    Similarly, if you are photographed attending an event that was not essential for work, it took place. And was illegal. Therefore, why go to court?

    Arguably, if he gets an FPN which is presumably three figures rather than five, and AIUI does not carry a criminal record, he's getting off pretty lightly compared to others who organised parties.

    What this whole episode, coupled with Cummings, does show is how extraordinarily slack and complacent the cabinet and government were about following their own procedures. No wonder Covid was such an issue among them!
    I'm not sure the parallel works. Recotrded speed is a question of fact, whether a gathering was reasonably necessary for work a question of opinion.
    If you will explain to me the circumstances under which it is 'reasonably necessary' to serve alcohol for work purposes, or indeed to mark somebody's birthday, I will concede your point.
    If the gathering is reasonably necessary for work purposes, then serving cake and alcohol does not negate that.

    Throughout lockdown when I was in the office (which was most of the time for some people) we still got our Friday afternoon drink supplied by the company. It didn't mean we weren't working.
    Did spouses attend too?
    I'll refer you to my other comments, I've already explained this as clearly as I can.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 35,990
    Leon said:

    Clearly I agree more with Hannan than Jones, but I want to hear both of them. They know what they are talking about.

    Hannan is more reliably wrong on everything he talks about than our own dear Roger...

    So is Jones, but for different reasons.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,375
    HYUFD said:

    When many Tory activists are also councillors seeking to hold their seats of course they will be working to get their vote out

    Easy. Get the PM out.
  • HYUFD said:

    When many Tory activists are also councillors seeking to hold their seats of course they will be working to get their vote out

    Tough ask this may
  • ozymandiasozymandias Posts: 1,503
    Applicant said:

    .

    Roger said:

    Heathener said:

    Applicant said:

    RH1992 said:

    Think we might be getting a little clip from the PM soon enough according to the usually very accurate ITV News insider account.

    "Prime Minister to provide a clip at 5.30pm after Downing Street revealed he and his Chancellor had been fined."

    https://twitter.com/itvnewsinsider/status/1513903647255670785

    Meanwhile I've just been watching Sky News and became quite annoyed at the member of the medical profession they got onto speak. They claimed that the fine means that Johnson's visit to Kyiv was "clearly designed as a distraction and photo opportunity".

    I'm not Ukrainian, but I imagine it would feel pretty insulting that some prats continually seek to minimise the good work the UK has been doing because of a domestic scandal. The issues are separate and should remain so.

    When you say "member of the medical profession", I assume you mean "Labour activist"?
    You accused me of trolling, which you did by way of completely altering my words in a quote, but as has so often been observed, those who are ready to dish out such opprobrium are often least able to defend themselves.

    So the question is to be posed: are you sitting inside CCHQ? Do you work for Boris Johnson?

    It's the only explanation for your sycophantic attempt to defend the indefensible.
    He's not the only one but to be fair the PB Tories are-unusually-struggling to find a quorum!
    I think most actual Tories and other centrist and right-leaning posters have been critical of Boris, actually, if you read across the last thread and this one. HY has been quiet, of course, but that's only to be expected.
    As a Tory I'm really quite relaxed over whether Boris goes or stays. There's no imminent election and we'll sort ourselves out before then. Captain Plastic Fantastic is (and will be) going nowhere so I'm very placid.

  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 35,990
    Carrie has paid the fine, which rather fucks BoZo defending it in court
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 35,990
    Excellent example here of the "official statement-followed-by-background-briefing-explaining-you-don't really-mean-it." https://twitter.com/RobDotHutton/status/1513920882288336902/photo/1
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 9,871
    kle4 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Absolutely no fan of Boris and the conservatives as some may have noticed. However really don't think the lying thing is going to have any cut through with the general public. Most people that are not as politically tuned in as those here assume if a politician of any political persuasion is moving their lips they are lying.

    Whether it cuts through is immaterial. Lots of things do not cut through but are still important.

    People assume politicians lie all the time but in fact they are wrong and lying is quite rare (though they will obfuscate, spin and omit to a greater or lesser degree).

    Lying should still matter. As should severe incompetence - and those are the two options available to Boris and Rishi.

    That they will get away with it is neither here nor there.
    (though they will obfuscate, spin and omit to a greater or lesser degree)

    This is what people call lying

  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    The Prime Minister’s wife, Carrie Johnson, has paid a fixed penalty notice relating to a gathering on the afternoon of June 19 2020, and “apologises unreservedly”, a spokesperson for Mrs Johnson has said.

    https://twitter.com/SamCoatesSky/status/1513919815852957696
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,714

    Nad's taken her time:

    PM has been clear about what happened on 19th June 2020 & offered a full apology. It was a brief gathering in the Cabinet Room, less than 10 minutes during a busy working day. PM is at his best when delivering on the priorities of the British people which he will continue to do.

    https://twitter.com/NadineDorries/status/1513915004164227079

    Hostage to fortune if more fines come along
    "the priorities of the British people"

    ...erm, like selling Channel 4?

  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830
    Scott_xP said:

    Carrie has paid the fine, which rather fucks BoZo defending it in court

    source?
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,921

    IPSOS data on how the 2017 vote maps onto 2022:

    image

    https://twitter.com/mathieugallard/status/1513636287240196097

    So more 2017 Fillon voters voted for Macron than Pecresse this time and more 2017 Hamon voters voted for Melenchon than Hidalgo.

    The 2 main traditional parties of Les Republicains and the Socialists now just shadows of their former strength
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 51,821
    IshmaelZ said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Carrie has paid the fine, which rather fucks BoZo defending it in court

    source?
    For the gander?
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,663

    The 🇬🇧 changed PM
    👉🏻four times in the war in Afghanistan
    👉🏻in the Iraq War
    👉🏻in the Gulf War
    👉🏻in the Korean War
    👉🏻in the Second World War
    👉🏻in the First World War
    👉🏻in the Second Boer War
    👉🏻in the Second Opium War
    👉🏻in the Crimean War
    👉🏻twice in the Peninsular War


    https://twitter.com/RhonddaBryant/status/1513915021239193614

    Five times during the Napoleonic wars: Addington, Pitt, Grenville, Portland, Perceval, Liverpool!
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    New Scottish Independence poll, BMG 25 - 31 Mar (changes vs 27 - 30 Apr 21):

    No ~ 49% (+2)
    Yes ~ 43% (-4)
    Don’t Know ~ 8% (+1)

    Excluding Don’t Knows ( / vs 2014):
    No ~ 53% (+3 / -2)
    Yes ~ 47% (-3 / +2)


    https://twitter.com/BallotBoxScot/status/1513919690967601153

    It should be noted that a "Yes/No" question elicits more support for separation than "Remain/Leave".

    The power of how we ask questions

    Should Scotland be an independent country?
    Yes 47%
    No 53%

    Should Scotland Remain in or Leave the UK?
    Remain 59%
    Leave 41%

    YouGov/These Islands March 31


    https://twitter.com/GoodwinMJ/status/1513830451487649797
  • Scott_xP said:

    Carrie has paid the fine, which rather fucks BoZo defending it in court

    I expect Boris and Rishi to accept the FPN
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830
    edited April 2022
    Roger Gale saying undermining Phatboi = undermining the alliance against Putin

    Oh, and Phatboi is leading not just the country but the whole "coalition"
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 51,821
    HYUFD said:

    When many Tory activists are also councillors seeking to hold their seats of course they will be working to get their vote out

    "Thou shalt not bear false witness"
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,812

    DavidL said:

    It is mildly annoying how the media simply state that there has been wrongdoing as a fact now. The FPN is an offer to accept a fine. If it is not taken up the matter has to go to court and guilt or innocence is then determined. The view of the Met is simply that.

    The police were given the power by law to decide on these matters. It’s not just a “view”. The Johnsons and Sunak can refuse to pay if they consider themselves innocent. So far, it appears that they are not going to do that, so they are accepting the decision.
    I would agree that if they simply pay then they have accepted it.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,375

    The 🇬🇧 changed PM
    👉🏻four times in the war in Afghanistan
    👉🏻in the Iraq War
    👉🏻in the Gulf War
    👉🏻in the Korean War
    👉🏻in the Second World War
    👉🏻in the First World War
    👉🏻in the Second Boer War
    👉🏻in the Second Opium War
    👉🏻in the Crimean War
    👉🏻twice in the Peninsular War


    https://twitter.com/RhonddaBryant/status/1513915021239193614

    Five times during the Napoleonic wars: Addington, Pitt, Grenville, Portland, Perceval, Liverpool!
    Although in the case of Pitt and Perceval there wasn't an awful lot of choice in the matter. They could hardly have continued being PM while dead, although even Pitt's corpse would probably be an improvement on what we have now.
  • Northern_AlNorthern_Al Posts: 8,376
    Just catching up, to the unbelievable sight of some PBers still dancing on the head of a pin to try to argue that Boris is innocent, OK.

    Credit to HYUFD who, unless I've missed it, has not once engaged in the ludicrous argument that Boris is innocent - merely that Boris should remain in post if it is politically expedient for the Tory Party for him to do so. If the most loyal Boris supporter can accept the Met's verdict..... well.

    Incidentally, is there a huge panic in France that in a couple of week's time they could have a new President during a European war? I've missed it if there is.
  • ApplicantApplicant Posts: 3,379
    Pagan2 said:

    kle4 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Absolutely no fan of Boris and the conservatives as some may have noticed. However really don't think the lying thing is going to have any cut through with the general public. Most people that are not as politically tuned in as those here assume if a politician of any political persuasion is moving their lips they are lying.

    Whether it cuts through is immaterial. Lots of things do not cut through but are still important.

    People assume politicians lie all the time but in fact they are wrong and lying is quite rare (though they will obfuscate, spin and omit to a greater or lesser degree).

    Lying should still matter. As should severe incompetence - and those are the two options available to Boris and Rishi.

    That they will get away with it is neither here nor there.
    (though they will obfuscate, spin and omit to a greater or lesser degree)

    This is what people call lying

    Yes, exactly. Exactly why I advised on the last thread that Boris's opponents don't focus on the lying - it risks clouding the issue and even if proven people are too likely to go "well, durr".

    Focus on him breaking his own law. That's reason enough for him to go.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    SLAB revival?

    New Scottish Westminster poll, BMG 25 - 31 Mar (changes vs 27 - 30 Apr 21):

    SNP ~ 42% (-6)
    Lab ~ 26% (+6)
    Con ~ 19% (-1)
    LD ~ 6% (-1)
    Grn ~ 4% (+1)


    https://twitter.com/BallotBoxScot/status/1513919411417235465
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,277

    New Scottish Independence poll, BMG 25 - 31 Mar (changes vs 27 - 30 Apr 21):

    No ~ 49% (+2)
    Yes ~ 43% (-4)
    Don’t Know ~ 8% (+1)

    Excluding Don’t Knows ( / vs 2014):
    No ~ 53% (+3 / -2)
    Yes ~ 47% (-3 / +2)


    https://twitter.com/BallotBoxScot/status/1513919690967601153

    It should be noted that a "Yes/No" question elicits more support for separation than "Remain/Leave".

    The power of how we ask questions

    Should Scotland be an independent country?
    Yes 47%
    No 53%

    Should Scotland Remain in or Leave the UK?
    Remain 59%
    Leave 41%

    YouGov/These Islands March 31


    https://twitter.com/GoodwinMJ/status/1513830451487649797

    This is a rather old poll, discussed thoroughly at the time? Or am I missing something?
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,375

    Just catching up, to the unbelievable sight of some PBers still dancing on the head of a pin to try to argue that Boris is innocent, OK.

    Credit to HYUFD who, unless I've missed it, has not once engaged in the ludicrous argument that Boris is innocent - merely that Boris should remain in post if it is politically expedient for the Tory Party for him to do so. If the most loyal Boris supporter can accept the Met's verdict..... well.

    Incidentally, is there a huge panic in France that in a couple of week's time they could have a new President during a European war? I've missed it if there is.

    Abraham Lincoln thought he was going to be defeated in 1864, which would have left a lame duck presidency managing the dying months of the Civil War. Not exactly ideal.

    In the end, a couple of timely victories by Union forces turned the tide in his favour.
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 11,052
    Applicant said:

    Applicant said:

    ydoethur said:

    Applicant said:

    ydoethur said:

    DavidL said:

    It is mildly annoying how the media simply state that there has been wrongdoing as a fact now. The FPN is an offer to accept a fine. If it is not taken up the matter has to go to court and guilt or innocence is then determined. The view of the Met is simply that.

    You're the lawyer, not me, but surely the reason FPNs are a thing is because they cover things that either happen, or didn't?

    If you are caught on camera doing 75mph in a 60mph zone, there isn't a question of whether the offence took place. It did. Therefore, why waste the time of a court?

    Similarly, if you are photographed attending an event that was not essential for work, it took place. And was illegal. Therefore, why go to court?

    Arguably, if he gets an FPN which is presumably three figures rather than five, and AIUI does not carry a criminal record, he's getting off pretty lightly compared to others who organised parties.

    What this whole episode, coupled with Cummings, does show is how extraordinarily slack and complacent the cabinet and government were about following their own procedures. No wonder Covid was such an issue among them!
    I'm not sure the parallel works. Recotrded speed is a question of fact, whether a gathering was reasonably necessary for work a question of opinion.
    If you will explain to me the circumstances under which it is 'reasonably necessary' to serve alcohol for work purposes, or indeed to mark somebody's birthday, I will concede your point.
    If the gathering is reasonably necessary for work purposes, then serving cake and alcohol does not negate that.

    Throughout lockdown when I was in the office (which was most of the time for some people) we still got our Friday afternoon drink supplied by the company. It didn't mean we weren't working.
    Did spouses attend too?
    I'll refer you to my other comments, I've already explained this as clearly as I can.
    I’ll take that as a no.
  • SLAB revival?

    New Scottish Westminster poll, BMG 25 - 31 Mar (changes vs 27 - 30 Apr 21):

    SNP ~ 42% (-6)
    Lab ~ 26% (+6)
    Con ~ 19% (-1)
    LD ~ 6% (-1)
    Grn ~ 4% (+1)


    https://twitter.com/BallotBoxScot/status/1513919411417235465

    Good to see SNP being challenged

    It does not matter to me if it is Labour as they are for the union
  • ApplicantApplicant Posts: 3,379

    Applicant said:

    Applicant said:

    ydoethur said:

    Applicant said:

    ydoethur said:

    DavidL said:

    It is mildly annoying how the media simply state that there has been wrongdoing as a fact now. The FPN is an offer to accept a fine. If it is not taken up the matter has to go to court and guilt or innocence is then determined. The view of the Met is simply that.

    You're the lawyer, not me, but surely the reason FPNs are a thing is because they cover things that either happen, or didn't?

    If you are caught on camera doing 75mph in a 60mph zone, there isn't a question of whether the offence took place. It did. Therefore, why waste the time of a court?

    Similarly, if you are photographed attending an event that was not essential for work, it took place. And was illegal. Therefore, why go to court?

    Arguably, if he gets an FPN which is presumably three figures rather than five, and AIUI does not carry a criminal record, he's getting off pretty lightly compared to others who organised parties.

    What this whole episode, coupled with Cummings, does show is how extraordinarily slack and complacent the cabinet and government were about following their own procedures. No wonder Covid was such an issue among them!
    I'm not sure the parallel works. Recotrded speed is a question of fact, whether a gathering was reasonably necessary for work a question of opinion.
    If you will explain to me the circumstances under which it is 'reasonably necessary' to serve alcohol for work purposes, or indeed to mark somebody's birthday, I will concede your point.
    If the gathering is reasonably necessary for work purposes, then serving cake and alcohol does not negate that.

    Throughout lockdown when I was in the office (which was most of the time for some people) we still got our Friday afternoon drink supplied by the company. It didn't mean we weren't working.
    Did spouses attend too?
    I'll refer you to my other comments, I've already explained this as clearly as I can.
    I’ll take that as a no.
    I'll take that as "you've missed the point".
  • Northern_AlNorthern_Al Posts: 8,376
    edited April 2022

    SLAB revival?

    New Scottish Westminster poll, BMG 25 - 31 Mar (changes vs 27 - 30 Apr 21):

    SNP ~ 42% (-6)
    Lab ~ 26% (+6)
    Con ~ 19% (-1)
    LD ~ 6% (-1)
    Grn ~ 4% (+1)


    https://twitter.com/BallotBoxScot/status/1513919411417235465

    Yes, I think there's enough evidence from a range of polls to suggest a modest but still significant revival in Labour's fortunes in Scotland. That could be very important in a couple of year's time.
  • TheWhiteRabbitTheWhiteRabbit Posts: 12,454

    The Prime Minister’s wife, Carrie Johnson, has paid a fixed penalty notice relating to a gathering on the afternoon of June 19 2020, and “apologises unreservedly”, a spokesperson for Mrs Johnson has said.

    https://twitter.com/SamCoatesSky/status/1513919815852957696

    She said this morning she hadn't received it yet!

    Got that chequebook out PDQ
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,277

    SLAB revival?

    New Scottish Westminster poll, BMG 25 - 31 Mar (changes vs 27 - 30 Apr 21):

    SNP ~ 42% (-6)
    Lab ~ 26% (+6)
    Con ~ 19% (-1)
    LD ~ 6% (-1)
    Grn ~ 4% (+1)


    https://twitter.com/BallotBoxScot/status/1513919411417235465

    Good to see SNP being challenged

    It does not matter to me if it is Labour as they are for the union
    This poll dates from the end of March, which is when we debated it
  • Leon said:

    SLAB revival?

    New Scottish Westminster poll, BMG 25 - 31 Mar (changes vs 27 - 30 Apr 21):

    SNP ~ 42% (-6)
    Lab ~ 26% (+6)
    Con ~ 19% (-1)
    LD ~ 6% (-1)
    Grn ~ 4% (+1)


    https://twitter.com/BallotBoxScot/status/1513919411417235465

    Good to see SNP being challenged

    It does not matter to me if it is Labour as they are for the union
    This poll dates from the end of March, which is when we debated it
    Really - I missed it
  • NorthofStokeNorthofStoke Posts: 1,758

    kle4 said:

    Leon said:

    kle4 said:

    'But Ukraine' is going to be the new 'But Vaccines' isn't it?

    Boris is an arse and should go, and would go, if the world was behaving "normally"

    HOWEVER there IS an argument for saying This is not the time

    Boris clearly has a good relationship with Zelenskyy, and Ukraine is an almost overwhelmingly important issue, right now, an issue which might take us to the brink of nuclear war

    Is this really the best juncture to be having leadership contests to replace the PM?

    It's not. It will be deeply frustrating to Boris-haters, who must feel they have got their man, but I sense the Tory party has neither the energy nor appetite to defenestrate Boris in the middle of this enormous crisis

    I don't think they do have the appetite (and I don't think they would if the world was behaving normally either), but I just do not agree that a leadership contest affects anything on that issue. For one, he could stay as PM but resign as party leader, with a view to being replaced as PM by whoever wins the subsequent contest, so it would not affect the Ukrainian issue at all. Once a new PM is in place they could even let Boris take the lead on Ukrainian relations.
    How long do we have to keep Boris in place as 'the only man remotely qualified to deal with the Ukraine crisis'? The war could go on for years.
    Reluctantly I think that he should have some role (special envoy?) to avoid any hint that our support for Ukraine is diminished by his resignation. He has big international recognition. All a bit theoretical at the moment.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,277
    edited April 2022

    SLAB revival?

    New Scottish Westminster poll, BMG 25 - 31 Mar (changes vs 27 - 30 Apr 21):

    SNP ~ 42% (-6)
    Lab ~ 26% (+6)
    Con ~ 19% (-1)
    LD ~ 6% (-1)
    Grn ~ 4% (+1)


    https://twitter.com/BallotBoxScot/status/1513919411417235465

    Yes, I think there's enough evidence from a range of polls to suggest a modest but still significant revival in Labour's fortunes in Scotland. That could be very important in a couple of year's time.
    Yes. it is possible that Labour have begun the long slow climb back to relevance in Scotland

    But I emphasise POSSIBLE - because this depends on the SNP's eternal hegemony finally crumbling, and that has been predicted, unsuccessfully, many times, not least by me

    However all things must pass, even the supremacy of Sturgeon and the SNP-in-power, even they cannot escape the fate of Nineveh and Tyre
  • NorthofStokeNorthofStoke Posts: 1,758
    Farooq said:

    Quick, talk about Scotland! Or tuition fees! Something! Anything!

    Voting systems?
  • ozymandiasozymandias Posts: 1,503
    Farooq said:

    Quick, talk about Scotland! Or tuition fees! Something! Anything!

    Ok. The protestors outside Lloyd's of London buggered-off before 4pm. Their dinner must be nearly ready.
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,523
    ~YouGov:

    Johnson knowingly lied? 75% Yes 12% No

    Should Johnson resign? 57% Yes 30% No

    Should Sunak resign? 57% Yes 29% No
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830

    The Prime Minister’s wife, Carrie Johnson, has paid a fixed penalty notice relating to a gathering on the afternoon of June 19 2020, and “apologises unreservedly”, a spokesperson for Mrs Johnson has said.

    https://twitter.com/SamCoatesSky/status/1513919815852957696

    She said this morning she hadn't received it yet!

    Got that chequebook out PDQ
    This must imply intention to run with the cake-ambush defence: she was single handedly responsible for breach (as suggested, poss facetiously, by someone here this pm). Doesn't get round the lying point mind.
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 9,871

    ~YouGov:

    Johnson knowingly lied? 75% Yes 12% No

    Should Johnson resign? 57% Yes 30% No

    Should Sunak resign? 57% Yes 29% No

    Given that 57% in 2019 did not vote tory in 2019 why would this poll indicate anything who didn't vote for them still doesn't want them in power?
  • CatManCatMan Posts: 3,058

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    Applicant said:

    ydoethur said:

    DavidL said:

    It is mildly annoying how the media simply state that there has been wrongdoing as a fact now. The FPN is an offer to accept a fine. If it is not taken up the matter has to go to court and guilt or innocence is then determined. The view of the Met is simply that.

    You're the lawyer, not me, but surely the reason FPNs are a thing is because they cover things that either happen, or didn't?

    If you are caught on camera doing 75mph in a 60mph zone, there isn't a question of whether the offence took place. It did. Therefore, why waste the time of a court?

    Similarly, if you are photographed attending an event that was not essential for work, it took place. And was illegal. Therefore, why go to court?

    Arguably, if he gets an FPN which is presumably three figures rather than five, and AIUI does not carry a criminal record, he's getting off pretty lightly compared to others who organised parties.

    What this whole episode, coupled with Cummings, does show is how extraordinarily slack and complacent the cabinet and government were about following their own procedures. No wonder Covid was such an issue among them!
    I'm not sure the parallel works. Recotrded speed is a question of fact, whether a gathering was reasonably necessary for work a question of opinion.
    If you will explain to me the circumstances under which it is 'reasonably necessary' to serve alcohol for work purposes, or indeed to mark somebody's birthday, I will concede your point.
    You work in a brewery?
    Generally you wouldn't serve alcohol ina brewery. Drunk workers cause accidents.
    I remember hearing of one brewery where the policy was:

    Drink as much as you want for free, but if you are drunk, you get sacked.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rci48w6Qbm0
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 11,052
    IshmaelZ said:

    The Prime Minister’s wife, Carrie Johnson, has paid a fixed penalty notice relating to a gathering on the afternoon of June 19 2020, and “apologises unreservedly”, a spokesperson for Mrs Johnson has said.

    https://twitter.com/SamCoatesSky/status/1513919815852957696

    She said this morning she hadn't received it yet!

    Got that chequebook out PDQ
    This must imply intention to run with the cake-ambush defence: she was single handedly responsible for breach (as suggested, poss facetiously, by someone here this pm). Doesn't get round the lying point mind.
    Boris now reported to be paying his fine without challenge.
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    Leon said:

    New Scottish Independence poll, BMG 25 - 31 Mar (changes vs 27 - 30 Apr 21):

    No ~ 49% (+2)
    Yes ~ 43% (-4)
    Don’t Know ~ 8% (+1)

    Excluding Don’t Knows ( / vs 2014):
    No ~ 53% (+3 / -2)
    Yes ~ 47% (-3 / +2)


    https://twitter.com/BallotBoxScot/status/1513919690967601153

    It should be noted that a "Yes/No" question elicits more support for separation than "Remain/Leave".

    The power of how we ask questions

    Should Scotland be an independent country?
    Yes 47%
    No 53%

    Should Scotland Remain in or Leave the UK?
    Remain 59%
    Leave 41%

    YouGov/These Islands March 31


    https://twitter.com/GoodwinMJ/status/1513830451487649797

    This is a rather old poll, discussed thoroughly at the time? Or am I missing something?
    I think full tables just out.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 51,821
    Farooq said:

    Quick, talk about Scotland! Or tuition fees! Something! Anything!

    Trains?
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 9,871
    Farooq said:

    The far right: Le Pen deserves to win because Macron is too focused on the Ukraine war.
    Also the far right: Boris shouldn't be replaced because he is too focused on the Ukraine war.

    You are mistaking the far right with the tory party, the current iteration couldn't be described as anything other than centre left giving their tax and spend policies
  • ozymandiasozymandias Posts: 1,503

    Farooq said:

    Quick, talk about Scotland! Or tuition fees! Something! Anything!

    Trains?
    "Satisfactory" Trains?
This discussion has been closed.