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The collapse of Sunak as seen through the eyes of punters – politicalbetting.com

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  • TimTTimT Posts: 6,468

    rcs1000 said:

    Quite a young crowd for Marine Le Pen in the south of France:

    https://twitter.com/MLP_officiel/status/1512380938277249025

    The South of France, Orange, etc., Is very much the FN heartland. Pretty much all their elected officials are there. (Which always surprised me: I would have thought they would have been stronger in the Past de Calais region.)
    I'll tell you who else was strong in the South of France..



    I'd guess many Pieds-Noirs resettling in the south also helped.


    The one time I visited the town of Vichy it felt, quite irrationally, wrong at a visceral level, that somehow I had soiled myself for going there.
  • TimTTimT Posts: 6,468
    kjh said:

    When all this ends the West is going to owe Ukraine a lot. Their sacrifice has brought the west together and made it much stronger. They have also shown the weakness of Russia and with any luck there may be big changes in Russia and Belarus. Let's hope we don't do the usual after a war and forget about the Ukrainians. Let's hope we really help them rebuild their country.

    Best suggestions I've seen today is that Elon Musk should get into lithium mining and set up operations in Mariupol and Kherson.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,070
    Leon said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Quite a young crowd for Marine Le Pen in the south of France:

    https://twitter.com/MLP_officiel/status/1512380938277249025

    It's a bit rough for Macron seeing as practically he's done more than any other leader in Europe for French consumer energy costs.
    But I guess electorates don't do counterfactual gratitude.
    But this might be like Brexit.

    British voters listened to all the sensible economic arguments against Brexit and said Yeah well fuck that, we want sovereignty. They may have been deluded, swindled, wrong and/or evil, but polls show sovereignty was THE most important argument (even more than migration)

    Sometimes it’s not always “the economy, stupid”

    France MAY be approaching one of these inflection points. I remain highly skeptical that Le Pen can win, but it’s gonna be close
    I don’t recall even Boris making this argument.
    “The policies I represent are the policies represented […] by Mr Putin”, Marine Le Pen tells @maitlis in this 2017 interview…
    https://twitter.com/JeremyCliffe/status/1512355505234227200
  • StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 8,243
    kle4 said:

    The Chinese government seems to be losing control of the situation in Shanghai.

    https://twitter.com/cam_l/status/1512646118575812612

    https://twitter.com/MikeSmithAFR/status/1512557720544903169

    Chinese government being a bunch of Knuts trying to hold back the Omicron tide.
    Have they even admitted anyone has died of Covid in China in the last year?
    If you shoot them in the back of the head before they expire they are only dying “with covid” though
  • MalcolmDunnMalcolmDunn Posts: 139
    I want Starmer's and Davey's wife to publish their tax return so the nation can see them. That they haven't done so already suggests that both obviously have something to hide. What is fair for Sunak should be fair for every other politician spouse orr even their children if they are old enough to earn money don't you all think?
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,277
    Nigelb said:

    Leon said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Quite a young crowd for Marine Le Pen in the south of France:

    https://twitter.com/MLP_officiel/status/1512380938277249025

    It's a bit rough for Macron seeing as practically he's done more than any other leader in Europe for French consumer energy costs.
    But I guess electorates don't do counterfactual gratitude.
    But this might be like Brexit.

    British voters listened to all the sensible economic arguments against Brexit and said Yeah well fuck that, we want sovereignty. They may have been deluded, swindled, wrong and/or evil, but polls show sovereignty was THE most important argument (even more than migration)

    Sometimes it’s not always “the economy, stupid”

    France MAY be approaching one of these inflection points. I remain highly skeptical that Le Pen can win, but it’s gonna be close
    I don’t recall even Boris making this argument.
    “The policies I represent are the policies represented […] by Mr Putin”, Marine Le Pen tells @maitlis in this 2017 interview…
    https://twitter.com/JeremyCliffe/status/1512355505234227200
    I’m not defending Le Pen’s links with Putin!

    Right now they make her totally unelectable, even if she has detoxed everything else

    I’m just trying to work out what is going on in France. Those pictures of Le Pen being met by delighted French teens are quite remarkable

    However, I seem to recall that Hitler was very popular with young Germans, for a while. Not that she is Hitler. But the idea all kids are naturally “left wing” is simplistic and wrong
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,625
    Leon said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Quite a young crowd for Marine Le Pen in the south of France:

    https://twitter.com/MLP_officiel/status/1512380938277249025

    It's a bit rough for Macron seeing as practically he's done more than any other leader in Europe for French consumer energy costs.
    But I guess electorates don't do counterfactual gratitude.
    But this might be like Brexit.

    British voters listened to all the sensible economic arguments against Brexit and said Yeah well fuck that, we want sovereignty. They may have been deluded, swindled, wrong and/or evil, but polls show sovereignty was THE most important argument (even more than migration)

    Sometimes it’s not always “the economy, stupid”

    France MAY be approaching one of these inflection points. I remain highly skeptical that Le Pen can win, but it’s gonna be close
    Le Pen’s get out the vote campaign slogan is “if the people vote, the people will win”.
  • OmniumOmnium Posts: 10,759
    Nigelb said:

    Leon said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Quite a young crowd for Marine Le Pen in the south of France:

    https://twitter.com/MLP_officiel/status/1512380938277249025

    It's a bit rough for Macron seeing as practically he's done more than any other leader in Europe for French consumer energy costs.
    But I guess electorates don't do counterfactual gratitude.
    But this might be like Brexit.

    British voters listened to all the sensible economic arguments against Brexit and said Yeah well fuck that, we want sovereignty. They may have been deluded, swindled, wrong and/or evil, but polls show sovereignty was THE most important argument (even more than migration)

    Sometimes it’s not always “the economy, stupid”

    France MAY be approaching one of these inflection points. I remain highly skeptical that Le Pen can win, but it’s gonna be close
    I don’t recall even Boris making this argument.
    “The policies I represent are the policies represented […] by Mr Putin”, Marine Le Pen tells @maitlis in this 2017 interview…
    https://twitter.com/JeremyCliffe/status/1512355505234227200
    It's all rather peculiar!

    Le Pen will not have had intelligence briefings I guess. Nonetheless she has to have been somewhat aware of the vileness that is Russia.

  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 51,821
    Farooq said:

    Please stay in Kyiv you sack of lard.

    Bin bag full of custard...
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,153
    Pulpstar said:

    Quite a young crowd for Marine Le Pen in the south of France:

    https://twitter.com/MLP_officiel/status/1512380938277249025

    It's a bit rough for Macron seeing as practically he's done more than any other leader in Europe for French consumer energy costs.
    But I guess electorates don't do counterfactual gratitude.
    Lots of people are angry with Macron: civil servants, who now need to work significantly longer before accruing their gold plated pensions; employees at medium and larger firms, who are now significantly easier to let go.

    Those changes needed to happen, and each President before Macron tried, and then gave up when faced with protests and strikes. He gets a lot of hate on here, but those reforms (which are really only the beginning) were much needed in France. It would be a shame to see someone with corbyn's economic policies come in, and drag France backwards.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    Leon said:

    Fair play to Boris. That takes some personal bravery (and it’s a very good photo op for them both)
    The #FBPE crowd sneering evidently didn’t read:

    The Ukrainian embassy in London tweeted a picture of the two leaders meeting face to face.

    In a Facebook post, Andriy Sybiha, deputy head of the Ukrainian president's office said: "The UK is the leader in defence support for Ukraine. The leader in the anti-war coalition. The leader in sanctions against the Russian aggressor."

  • OmniumOmnium Posts: 10,759
    Leon said:

    Fair play to Boris. That takes some personal bravery (and it’s a very good photo op for them both)
    Where do these linguistic things like 'fair play to' and 'fit for purpose' and 'approve this message' come from? I imagine that it might be the US (the last certainly) however why on earth would they want to butcher our shared language?

    The above three examples just feel plain wrong (!!) to me :)
  • OmniumOmnium Posts: 10,759

    Farooq said:

    Please stay in Kyiv you sack of lard.

    Bin bag full of custard...
    Please transfer to my bathtub Jeeves. Make sure it's warm.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 41,956

    Leon said:

    Fair play to Boris. That takes some personal bravery (and it’s a very good photo op for them both)
    The #FBPE crowd sneering evidently didn’t read:

    The Ukrainian embassy in London tweeted a picture of the two leaders meeting face to face.

    In a Facebook post, Andriy Sybiha, deputy head of the Ukrainian president's office said: "The UK is the leader in defence support for Ukraine. The leader in the anti-war coalition. The leader in sanctions against the Russian aggressor."

    Going to Kyiv is so yesterday.

    https://twitter.com/ukraine_world/status/1512461578859384833?s=20&t=R4D_-12QSWw8BbdDZzXWKA
  • I want Starmer's and Davey's wife to publish their tax return so the nation can see them. That they haven't done so already suggests that both obviously have something to hide. What is fair for Sunak should be fair for every other politician spouse orr even their children if they are old enough to earn money don't you all think?

    What a moronic post.

    It's fair to also ask them if they're US green card holders or non-UK dom, but I'm not aware of any suggestion they are either of those things.

    Are you?
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,585
    Leon said:

    Fair play to Boris. That takes some personal bravery (and it’s a very good photo op for them both)
    We’ll likely not know for a while, but I’d love to see the logistics operation that got the PM to Kiev without anyone noticing.

    Obviously the Lobby journalists might have known something and be under a D-Notice, but the world’s communications aren’t that simple any more.

    Reminded of the day GW Bush turned up in Iraq on Thanksgiving.
    https://edition.cnn.com/2003/WORLD/meast/11/27/sprj.irq.bush.tic.toc/index.html
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,561
    kjh said:

    When all this ends the West is going to owe Ukraine a lot. Their sacrifice has brought the west together and made it much stronger. They have also shown the weakness of Russia and with any luck there may be big changes in Russia and Belarus. Let's hope we don't do the usual after a war and forget about the Ukrainians. Let's hope we really help them rebuild their country.

    Even before this is over, we need to have competitions for the best architects and the best craftsmen, to design for Ukraine some of the finest buildings anywhere on the planet. Beacons that say: this is what democracy is about; this is what those who defend democracy deserve.

    And just fucking DARE Russia to knock them down.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,070
    Farooq said:

    I want Starmer's and Davey's wife to publish their tax return so the nation can see them. That they haven't done so already suggests that both obviously have something to hide. What is fair for Sunak should be fair for every other politician spouse orr even their children if they are old enough to earn money don't you all think?

    No, not really. Declaring potential conflicts of interests, doesn't have to extend to publishing tax returns.
    It’s quite interesting just how little information appears in the register on members’ interests.
    https://publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm/cmregmem/220328/contents.htm
    Though Starmer provides considerably more than does Sunak.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 23,148
    edited April 2022
    An excellent programme from the BBC WS this lunchtime: The Shadow of Algiers.

    Looking at the legacy, impact in France, contemporary relevance.

    - An interview with an 87 year old French woman who planted a bomb for the FLN when a student.
    - The impact on the Front National - JM Le Pen left his monogrammed knife planted in a house search in Algeria, and it emerged decades later.
    - The Paris police massacre of Algerian demonstrators in 1961
    - Macron's efforts to start France coming to terms with it in the last year or two.He deserves credit for that.

    I had not realised quite the number of assassination attempts there had been on de Gaulle, or potential coup attempt(s?) from his own military.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/w3ct41d0
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,812
    rcs1000 said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Quite a young crowd for Marine Le Pen in the south of France:

    https://twitter.com/MLP_officiel/status/1512380938277249025

    It's a bit rough for Macron seeing as practically he's done more than any other leader in Europe for French consumer energy costs.
    But I guess electorates don't do counterfactual gratitude.
    Lots of people are angry with Macron: civil servants, who now need to work significantly longer before accruing their gold plated pensions; employees at medium and larger firms, who are now significantly easier to let go.

    Those changes needed to happen, and each President before Macron tried, and then gave up when faced with protests and strikes. He gets a lot of hate on here, but those reforms (which are really only the beginning) were much needed in France. It would be a shame to see someone with corbyn's economic policies come in, and drag France backwards.
    It would certainly be a shame for France. For us, not so much.

    If I was French I would (a) be very sad both in general and in the choice I was being given and (b) vote for him in the second round.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    A couple weeks ago a Wagner source told me of a hastily out together new PMC, owned by a son-in-law of a GRU general, and set up to get a piece of the money pie available during the war. A unit numbering approx 200 was stationed in Pripyaty /1

    They stationed them in old condemned apartment blocks, seemingly unaware of the risks. A couple days later a wounded merc ended up in a Belarus clinic, causing the Geiger counter to almost break. The rest of the mercs, hearing of this, deserted in panic. MoD were looking for them


    https://twitter.com/christogrozev/status/1512796540494041097
  • StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 8,243
    Omnium said:

    Leon said:

    Fair play to Boris. That takes some personal bravery (and it’s a very good photo op for them both)
    Where do these linguistic things like 'fair play to' and 'fit for purpose' and 'approve this message' come from? I imagine that it might be the US (the last certainly) however why on earth would they want to butcher our shared language?

    The above three examples just feel plain wrong (!!) to me :)
    Fit for purpose was John Reid I believe describing what the home office was not
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,561
    Farooq said:

    Please stay in Kyiv you sack of lard.

    What a deeply moronic comment.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    edited April 2022
    Sandpit said:

    Leon said:

    Fair play to Boris. That takes some personal bravery (and it’s a very good photo op for them both)
    We’ll likely not know for a while, but I’d love to see the logistics operation that got the PM to Kiev without anyone noticing.

    Obviously the Lobby journalists might have known something and be under a D-Notice, but the world’s communications aren’t that simple any more.

    Reminded of the day GW Bush turned up in Iraq on Thanksgiving.
    https://edition.cnn.com/2003/WORLD/meast/11/27/sprj.irq.bush.tic.toc/index.html
    The 330 has been on refuelling duty over Poland and the 320’s last reported flight was to Southend on Sunday. Possibly RAF to close to the Polish border then overland from there?
  • DavidL said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Quite a young crowd for Marine Le Pen in the south of France:

    https://twitter.com/MLP_officiel/status/1512380938277249025

    It's a bit rough for Macron seeing as practically he's done more than any other leader in Europe for French consumer energy costs.
    But I guess electorates don't do counterfactual gratitude.
    Lots of people are angry with Macron: civil servants, who now need to work significantly longer before accruing their gold plated pensions; employees at medium and larger firms, who are now significantly easier to let go.

    Those changes needed to happen, and each President before Macron tried, and then gave up when faced with protests and strikes. He gets a lot of hate on here, but those reforms (which are really only the beginning) were much needed in France. It would be a shame to see someone with corbyn's economic policies come in, and drag France backwards.
    It would certainly be a shame for France. For us, not so much.

    If I was French I would (a) be very sad both in general and in the choice I was being given and (b) vote for him in the second round.
    This is hardly going to help unity of cause

    https://news.sky.com/story/emmanuel-macron-calls-polish-pm-mateusz-morawiecki-far-right-anti-semite-after-criticism-of-his-putin-calls-12585999
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    The Russian Defence Ministry just accused Ukraine of planning to stage a massacre of civilians in Irpin

    https://twitter.com/SamRamani2/status/1512704940233404422

    Translation: We committed massive war crimes in Irpin and you are about to discover them😡

    https://twitter.com/AlexWeidmann4/status/1512713601303429121
  • RogerRoger Posts: 19,908

    dixiedean said:

    Everton 1 Man U 0.

    LOL...Man Utd are utter crap.
    A good op for the United scribes as usual. Today's favourite

    "There’s bound to be dressing room questions about this embarrassing result against such a lowly club … Lampard will want to know why his men only won by one goal"
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,083
    Sandpit said:

    Unconfirmed reports that the PM is or was in Kiev meeting Zelensky.

    Eh, Von der Leyen got in their first, she gets bragging rights.
  • OmniumOmnium Posts: 10,759

    Omnium said:

    Leon said:

    Fair play to Boris. That takes some personal bravery (and it’s a very good photo op for them both)
    Where do these linguistic things like 'fair play to' and 'fit for purpose' and 'approve this message' come from? I imagine that it might be the US (the last certainly) however why on earth would they want to butcher our shared language?

    The above three examples just feel plain wrong (!!) to me :)
    Fit for purpose was John Reid I believe describing what the home office was not
    Yes. It is just a horrible phrase though. Simply wrong in some deep sense. (I'll quite happily defer to anyone that can point to long usage of such awfulness)
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,585

    Sandpit said:

    Leon said:

    Fair play to Boris. That takes some personal bravery (and it’s a very good photo op for them both)
    We’ll likely not know for a while, but I’d love to see the logistics operation that got the PM to Kiev without anyone noticing.

    Obviously the Lobby journalists might have known something and be under a D-Notice, but the world’s communications aren’t that simple any more.

    Reminded of the day GW Bush turned up in Iraq on Thanksgiving.
    https://edition.cnn.com/2003/WORLD/meast/11/27/sprj.irq.bush.tic.toc/index.html
    The 330 has been on refuelling duty over Poland and the 320’s last reported flight was to Southend on Sunday. Possibly RAF to close to the Polish border then overland from there?
    If I were to guess, I’d say a two-car convoy out of Downing St to either Heathrow or Northolt in the middle of the night, then either a ‘fake’ BA flight or a mil flight to somewhere in Eastern Poland, then a Hercules for the last leg to land on whatever passes for a runway in Kiev, followed by a helicopter to the meeting place. Kiev is 500km from the Polish border.

    Apparently Ursula vdL was there yesterday, so they’ve got a VIP corridor in place somehow.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,083
    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    Quite a young crowd for Marine Le Pen in the south of France:

    https://twitter.com/MLP_officiel/status/1512380938277249025


    That’s an extraordinary video

    I’m sure they selected lots of REALLY young people, but nonetheless the really young people look overwhelmingly delighted to see her. Thrilled, even. That’s not fake. She has star quality for them,

    Of course her problem is 15 year olds can’t vote and 18 year olds don’t vote but… hmm….

    Looking at that makes me think she might indeed win. Macron needs the crumblies to come out, big time
    It is, of course, well worth remembering that both Melenchon and Le Pen draw predominantly from the young, while Pecresse gets the oldies. Macron gets the middle aged.
    I think it cannot be repeated enough, since people do tend to assume 'good' progressive policies will follow from listening to young people, but it isn't a universal rule.
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 17,405
    Omnium said:

    Omnium said:

    Leon said:

    Fair play to Boris. That takes some personal bravery (and it’s a very good photo op for them both)
    Where do these linguistic things like 'fair play to' and 'fit for purpose' and 'approve this message' come from? I imagine that it might be the US (the last certainly) however why on earth would they want to butcher our shared language?

    The above three examples just feel plain wrong (!!) to me :)
    Fit for purpose was John Reid I believe describing what the home office was not
    Yes. It is just a horrible phrase though. Simply wrong in some deep sense. (I'll quite happily defer to anyone that can point to long usage of such awfulness)
    Reminiscent of the tautology ‘survival of the fittest’.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,083
    ohnotnow said:

    Well, they kept Boris's visit to Kyiv quiet.. Not _everything_ leaks from No.10 it seems.

    https://twitter.com/UkrEmbLondon/status/1512791528607031303

    I had wondered as there hadn't been a report of him speaking to Zelensky for a couple of days, which there usually is.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,625
    kle4 said:

    Sandpit said:

    Unconfirmed reports that the PM is or was in Kiev meeting Zelensky.

    Eh, Von der Leyen got in their first, she gets bragging rights.
    The Czech, Polish and Slovenian PMs were the first to visit Kyiv.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,070
    Mass graves in #Chernihiv. 700 killed. Seems like each discovery is worse than the previous one
    https://twitter.com/lesiavasylenko/status/1512439627025682435
  • TimTTimT Posts: 6,468
    edited April 2022

    Omnium said:

    Leon said:

    Fair play to Boris. That takes some personal bravery (and it’s a very good photo op for them both)
    Where do these linguistic things like 'fair play to' and 'fit for purpose' and 'approve this message' come from? I imagine that it might be the US (the last certainly) however why on earth would they want to butcher our shared language?

    The above three examples just feel plain wrong (!!) to me :)
    Fit for purpose was John Reid I believe describing what the home office was not
    I had always assumed that 'fit for purpose' came from the engineering world. It seems it was the consumer protection world.

    I have no problem with neologisms and new phrases that serve a useful purpose. Fit for purpose certainly fits that bill, it is 'fit for purpose'
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,714
    Leon said:

    Nigelb said:

    Leon said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Quite a young crowd for Marine Le Pen in the south of France:

    https://twitter.com/MLP_officiel/status/1512380938277249025

    It's a bit rough for Macron seeing as practically he's done more than any other leader in Europe for French consumer energy costs.
    But I guess electorates don't do counterfactual gratitude.
    But this might be like Brexit.

    British voters listened to all the sensible economic arguments against Brexit and said Yeah well fuck that, we want sovereignty. They may have been deluded, swindled, wrong and/or evil, but polls show sovereignty was THE most important argument (even more than migration)

    Sometimes it’s not always “the economy, stupid”

    France MAY be approaching one of these inflection points. I remain highly skeptical that Le Pen can win, but it’s gonna be close
    I don’t recall even Boris making this argument.
    “The policies I represent are the policies represented […] by Mr Putin”, Marine Le Pen tells @maitlis in this 2017 interview…
    https://twitter.com/JeremyCliffe/status/1512355505234227200
    I’m not defending Le Pen’s links with Putin!

    Right now they make her totally unelectable, even if she has detoxed everything else

    I’m just trying to work out what is going on in France. Those pictures of Le Pen being met by delighted French teens are quite remarkable

    However, I seem to recall that Hitler was very popular with young Germans, for a while. Not that she is Hitler. But the idea all kids are naturally “left wing” is simplistic and wrong
    I suspect the young french thing is partly to do with youth unemployment which is crap in FR iirc.

    Anyway, my money is on LePen and I am sticking my head out to say it to me it just feels like there is a shock coming and Macron is done. As just one example, according to NYT, 30 yellow vest protestors lost an eye thanks to police brutal tactics.

    It will be a disaster for France and for the EU, but like all the other 2020s shit, we will have to just get on with dealing with it.

  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,083
    kjh said:

    When all this ends the West is going to owe Ukraine a lot. Their sacrifice has brought the west together and made it much stronger. They have also shown the weakness of Russia and with any luck there may be big changes in Russia and Belarus. Let's hope we don't do the usual after a war and forget about the Ukrainians. Let's hope we really help them rebuild their country.

    It's literally the least we could do, it simply must happen.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,714
    Nigelb said:

    Mass graves in #Chernihiv. 700 killed. Seems like each discovery is worse than the previous one
    https://twitter.com/lesiavasylenko/status/1512439627025682435

    Spectator had powerful piece this weekend on war crimes and collecting evidence. No one thought they would ever see the Serb leaders anywhere near the Hague in 1990s. But they painstaking collected the evidence and kept building it over years and years.

    Karadzic is now serving life imprisonment. On the Isle of Wight.

  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,083
    edited April 2022

    kle4 said:

    Sandpit said:

    Unconfirmed reports that the PM is or was in Kiev meeting Zelensky.

    Eh, Von der Leyen got in their first, she gets bragging rights.
    The Czech, Polish and Slovenian PMs were the first to visit Kyiv.
    When it was even more risky of course. But they don't count among great/formerly great/aspiring to be great powers (or rather, are simply not as recognizable globally as a UvDL or BL)
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,070

    Nigelb said:

    Mass graves in #Chernihiv. 700 killed. Seems like each discovery is worse than the previous one
    https://twitter.com/lesiavasylenko/status/1512439627025682435

    Spectator had powerful piece this weekend on war crimes and collecting evidence. No one thought they would ever see the Serb leaders anywhere near the Hague in 1990s. But they painstaking collected the evidence and kept building it over years and years.

    Karadzic is now serving life imprisonment. On the Isle of Wight.

    Whether Putin ever sees justice is a matter of conjecture.
    But the amount of evidence by the time this has finished will be overwhelming.
  • TimTTimT Posts: 6,468

    Omnium said:

    Omnium said:

    Leon said:

    Fair play to Boris. That takes some personal bravery (and it’s a very good photo op for them both)
    Where do these linguistic things like 'fair play to' and 'fit for purpose' and 'approve this message' come from? I imagine that it might be the US (the last certainly) however why on earth would they want to butcher our shared language?

    The above three examples just feel plain wrong (!!) to me :)
    Fit for purpose was John Reid I believe describing what the home office was not
    Yes. It is just a horrible phrase though. Simply wrong in some deep sense. (I'll quite happily defer to anyone that can point to long usage of such awfulness)
    Reminiscent of the tautology ‘survival of the fittest’.
    Except 'survival of the fittest' is a useless phrase as it misleads as to what evolution actually is. Fit for purpose means what it says and expresses a useful concept.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,585
    kle4 said:

    kjh said:

    When all this ends the West is going to owe Ukraine a lot. Their sacrifice has brought the west together and made it much stronger. They have also shown the weakness of Russia and with any luck there may be big changes in Russia and Belarus. Let's hope we don't do the usual after a war and forget about the Ukrainians. Let's hope we really help them rebuild their country.

    It's literally the least we could do, it simply must happen.
    Aid and goodwill are really important, especially in the coming weeks and months. We need to get bridges quickly reopened then rebuilt.

    The most important thing though, is trade. Buy Ukranian, and get the brilliant Ukranian marketing team to put little flags on everything they sell. Go to visit, there’s some lovely places to explore there. Stay in their hotels, rent their cars, buy their (very cheap) beer and vodka.
  • OmniumOmnium Posts: 10,759
    I'm currently reading Max Hasting's book on the Korean War. (Interested if anyone can suggest others)

    There's a really striking parallel of a war busily destroying an innocent nation as a proxy for a far bigger argument.

    (I don't think that it's quite true in either case - both wars are due to more domestic issues)
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,368
    edited April 2022

    I want Starmer's and Davey's wife to publish their tax return so the nation can see them. That they haven't done so already suggests that both obviously have something to hide. What is fair for Sunak should be fair for every other politician spouse orr even their children if they are old enough to earn money don't you all think?

    Senior politicians getting caught indulging in any form of industrial scale tax avoidance has hopeless optics, especially so when one is Chancellor of the Exchequer.

    Your request is a foolish one. Almost as foolish as the Sunaks' tax affairs.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,812
    edited April 2022

    DavidL said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Quite a young crowd for Marine Le Pen in the south of France:

    https://twitter.com/MLP_officiel/status/1512380938277249025

    It's a bit rough for Macron seeing as practically he's done more than any other leader in Europe for French consumer energy costs.
    But I guess electorates don't do counterfactual gratitude.
    Lots of people are angry with Macron: civil servants, who now need to work significantly longer before accruing their gold plated pensions; employees at medium and larger firms, who are now significantly easier to let go.

    Those changes needed to happen, and each President before Macron tried, and then gave up when faced with protests and strikes. He gets a lot of hate on here, but those reforms (which are really only the beginning) were much needed in France. It would be a shame to see someone with corbyn's economic policies come in, and drag France backwards.
    It would certainly be a shame for France. For us, not so much.

    If I was French I would (a) be very sad both in general and in the choice I was being given and (b) vote for him in the second round.
    This is hardly going to help unity of cause

    https://news.sky.com/story/emmanuel-macron-calls-polish-pm-mateusz-morawiecki-far-right-anti-semite-after-criticism-of-his-putin-calls-12585999
    What we are seeing in the EU at the moment is a patina of unity bought on by the terrible events in Ukraine but beneath that there are serious tensions. If Hungary did not border Ulkraine it might well be on its way to being expelled for no longer being a working democracy. Germany is really struggling to reverse 40 years of policy and Poland is not that far behind Hungary in the democracy stakes.

    I reckon they have a rocky few years ahead. It will be even worse if Macron loses.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,083

    kjh said:

    When all this ends the West is going to owe Ukraine a lot. Their sacrifice has brought the west together and made it much stronger. They have also shown the weakness of Russia and with any luck there may be big changes in Russia and Belarus. Let's hope we don't do the usual after a war and forget about the Ukrainians. Let's hope we really help them rebuild their country.

    Even before this is over, we need to have competitions for the best architects and the best craftsmen, to design for Ukraine some of the finest buildings anywhere on the planet. Beacons that say: this is what democracy is about; this is what those who defend democracy deserve.

    And just fucking DARE Russia to knock them down.
    Ukraine was beautiful, but now it will become great.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eeDzEapSn0Y

    The hoped for result of all this, even if it takes a long time.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,083
    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Quite a young crowd for Marine Le Pen in the south of France:

    https://twitter.com/MLP_officiel/status/1512380938277249025

    It's a bit rough for Macron seeing as practically he's done more than any other leader in Europe for French consumer energy costs.
    But I guess electorates don't do counterfactual gratitude.
    Lots of people are angry with Macron: civil servants, who now need to work significantly longer before accruing their gold plated pensions; employees at medium and larger firms, who are now significantly easier to let go.

    Those changes needed to happen, and each President before Macron tried, and then gave up when faced with protests and strikes. He gets a lot of hate on here, but those reforms (which are really only the beginning) were much needed in France. It would be a shame to see someone with corbyn's economic policies come in, and drag France backwards.
    It would certainly be a shame for France. For us, not so much.

    If I was French I would (a) be very sad both in general and in the choice I was being given and (b) vote for him in the second round.
    This is hardly going to help unity of cause

    https://news.sky.com/story/emmanuel-macron-calls-polish-pm-mateusz-morawiecki-far-right-anti-semite-after-criticism-of-his-putin-calls-12585999
    What we are seeing in the EU at the moment is a patina of unity bought on by the terrible events in Ukraine but beneath that there are serious tensions. If Hungary did not border Ulkraine it might well be on its way to being expelled for no longer being a working democracy. Germany is really struggling to reverse 40 years of policy and Poland is not that far behind Hungary in the democracy stakes.

    I reckon they have a rocky few years ahead. It will be even worse if Macron loses.
    Sadly could be true. The longer things go on, the tougher the choices, and the easier it will be for unity to fray. It's already not 100% pulling in the same direction, but the broad thrust at least is there.
  • RogerRoger Posts: 19,908

    rcs1000 said:

    Quite a young crowd for Marine Le Pen in the south of France:

    https://twitter.com/MLP_officiel/status/1512380938277249025

    The South of France, Orange, etc., Is very much the FN heartland. Pretty much all their elected officials are there. (Which always surprised me: I would have thought they would have been stronger in the Past de Calais region.)
    I'll tell you who else was strong in the South of France..



    I'd guess many Pieds-Noirs resettling in the south also helped.


    Pour me a foaming pint of hasbeeno my good man.


    Is that Holly Valence?!
    Those who are without sin..... The man who gave us Brexit......

  • kle4 said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Quite a young crowd for Marine Le Pen in the south of France:

    https://twitter.com/MLP_officiel/status/1512380938277249025

    It's a bit rough for Macron seeing as practically he's done more than any other leader in Europe for French consumer energy costs.
    But I guess electorates don't do counterfactual gratitude.
    Lots of people are angry with Macron: civil servants, who now need to work significantly longer before accruing their gold plated pensions; employees at medium and larger firms, who are now significantly easier to let go.

    Those changes needed to happen, and each President before Macron tried, and then gave up when faced with protests and strikes. He gets a lot of hate on here, but those reforms (which are really only the beginning) were much needed in France. It would be a shame to see someone with corbyn's economic policies come in, and drag France backwards.
    It would certainly be a shame for France. For us, not so much.

    If I was French I would (a) be very sad both in general and in the choice I was being given and (b) vote for him in the second round.
    This is hardly going to help unity of cause

    https://news.sky.com/story/emmanuel-macron-calls-polish-pm-mateusz-morawiecki-far-right-anti-semite-after-criticism-of-his-putin-calls-12585999
    What we are seeing in the EU at the moment is a patina of unity bought on by the terrible events in Ukraine but beneath that there are serious tensions. If Hungary did not border Ulkraine it might well be on its way to being expelled for no longer being a working democracy. Germany is really struggling to reverse 40 years of policy and Poland is not that far behind Hungary in the democracy stakes.

    I reckon they have a rocky few years ahead. It will be even worse if Macron loses.
    Sadly could be true. The longer things go on, the tougher the choices, and the easier it will be for unity to fray. It's already not 100% pulling in the same direction, but the broad thrust at least is there.
    Surely Le Pen is going to lose
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,812
    kle4 said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Quite a young crowd for Marine Le Pen in the south of France:

    https://twitter.com/MLP_officiel/status/1512380938277249025

    It's a bit rough for Macron seeing as practically he's done more than any other leader in Europe for French consumer energy costs.
    But I guess electorates don't do counterfactual gratitude.
    Lots of people are angry with Macron: civil servants, who now need to work significantly longer before accruing their gold plated pensions; employees at medium and larger firms, who are now significantly easier to let go.

    Those changes needed to happen, and each President before Macron tried, and then gave up when faced with protests and strikes. He gets a lot of hate on here, but those reforms (which are really only the beginning) were much needed in France. It would be a shame to see someone with corbyn's economic policies come in, and drag France backwards.
    It would certainly be a shame for France. For us, not so much.

    If I was French I would (a) be very sad both in general and in the choice I was being given and (b) vote for him in the second round.
    This is hardly going to help unity of cause

    https://news.sky.com/story/emmanuel-macron-calls-polish-pm-mateusz-morawiecki-far-right-anti-semite-after-criticism-of-his-putin-calls-12585999
    What we are seeing in the EU at the moment is a patina of unity bought on by the terrible events in Ukraine but beneath that there are serious tensions. If Hungary did not border Ulkraine it might well be on its way to being expelled for no longer being a working democracy. Germany is really struggling to reverse 40 years of policy and Poland is not that far behind Hungary in the democracy stakes.

    I reckon they have a rocky few years ahead. It will be even worse if Macron loses.
    Sadly could be true. The longer things go on, the tougher the choices, and the easier it will be for unity to fray. It's already not 100% pulling in the same direction, but the broad thrust at least is there.
    Yep, I take no pleasure in it at all. For me, the greatest achievement of the EU was the planting of seeds of democracy in eastern Europe and Thatcher was absolutely right to support it strongly. It is really sad to see these seeds wither but its been going on for a while. Supporting those fledgling democracies was, for me, the most compelling reason to remain in the EU and it nearly tipped the balance.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,083

    Nigelb said:

    Mass graves in #Chernihiv. 700 killed. Seems like each discovery is worse than the previous one
    https://twitter.com/lesiavasylenko/status/1512439627025682435

    Karadzic is now serving life imprisonment. On the Isle of Wight.

    I do wonder at the processes deciding who imprisons these people in the end. The former dictator of Liberia is serving time in a British prison as well. Must be a weird experience for them.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,083

    kle4 said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Quite a young crowd for Marine Le Pen in the south of France:

    https://twitter.com/MLP_officiel/status/1512380938277249025

    It's a bit rough for Macron seeing as practically he's done more than any other leader in Europe for French consumer energy costs.
    But I guess electorates don't do counterfactual gratitude.
    Lots of people are angry with Macron: civil servants, who now need to work significantly longer before accruing their gold plated pensions; employees at medium and larger firms, who are now significantly easier to let go.

    Those changes needed to happen, and each President before Macron tried, and then gave up when faced with protests and strikes. He gets a lot of hate on here, but those reforms (which are really only the beginning) were much needed in France. It would be a shame to see someone with corbyn's economic policies come in, and drag France backwards.
    It would certainly be a shame for France. For us, not so much.

    If I was French I would (a) be very sad both in general and in the choice I was being given and (b) vote for him in the second round.
    This is hardly going to help unity of cause

    https://news.sky.com/story/emmanuel-macron-calls-polish-pm-mateusz-morawiecki-far-right-anti-semite-after-criticism-of-his-putin-calls-12585999
    What we are seeing in the EU at the moment is a patina of unity bought on by the terrible events in Ukraine but beneath that there are serious tensions. If Hungary did not border Ulkraine it might well be on its way to being expelled for no longer being a working democracy. Germany is really struggling to reverse 40 years of policy and Poland is not that far behind Hungary in the democracy stakes.

    I reckon they have a rocky few years ahead. It will be even worse if Macron loses.
    Sadly could be true. The longer things go on, the tougher the choices, and the easier it will be for unity to fray. It's already not 100% pulling in the same direction, but the broad thrust at least is there.
    Surely Le Pen is going to lose
    Almost certainly, but I was thinking more generally of a) the tensions in places like Hungary and Poland testing the limits of EU norms, as that has not gone away, and b) the inevitable complications of a long and grinding war, and the costs to EU populations to take or persist in further actions. It's a miracle so many can agree in the first place, it won't continue indefinitely.
  • CatManCatMan Posts: 3,058
    Remeber when we laughed about a Chernobyl sequel:

    https://inews.co.uk/news/urgent-chernobyl-radiation-checks-needed-russians-disturbed-material-expert-1566516?ico=related_stories

    "Valeriy Simyonov, the chief safety engineer for the Chernobyl nuclear site, told the New York Times that one Russian soldier picked up a source of Cobalt-60 with his bare hands, exposing himself to so much radiation in a few seconds that it went off the scales of a Geiger counter."
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 51,821
    TimT said:

    Omnium said:

    Leon said:

    Fair play to Boris. That takes some personal bravery (and it’s a very good photo op for them both)
    Where do these linguistic things like 'fair play to' and 'fit for purpose' and 'approve this message' come from? I imagine that it might be the US (the last certainly) however why on earth would they want to butcher our shared language?

    The above three examples just feel plain wrong (!!) to me :)
    Fit for purpose was John Reid I believe describing what the home office was not
    I had always assumed that 'fit for purpose' came from the engineering world. It seems it was the consumer protection world.

    I have no problem with neologisms and new phrases that serve a useful purpose. Fit for purpose certainly fits that bill, it is 'fit for purpose'
    Whereas Boris is just Fat for Purpose?
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,921

    kle4 said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Quite a young crowd for Marine Le Pen in the south of France:

    https://twitter.com/MLP_officiel/status/1512380938277249025

    It's a bit rough for Macron seeing as practically he's done more than any other leader in Europe for French consumer energy costs.
    But I guess electorates don't do counterfactual gratitude.
    Lots of people are angry with Macron: civil servants, who now need to work significantly longer before accruing their gold plated pensions; employees at medium and larger firms, who are now significantly easier to let go.

    Those changes needed to happen, and each President before Macron tried, and then gave up when faced with protests and strikes. He gets a lot of hate on here, but those reforms (which are really only the beginning) were much needed in France. It would be a shame to see someone with corbyn's economic policies come in, and drag France backwards.
    It would certainly be a shame for France. For us, not so much.

    If I was French I would (a) be very sad both in general and in the choice I was being given and (b) vote for him in the second round.
    This is hardly going to help unity of cause

    https://news.sky.com/story/emmanuel-macron-calls-polish-pm-mateusz-morawiecki-far-right-anti-semite-after-criticism-of-his-putin-calls-12585999
    What we are seeing in the EU at the moment is a patina of unity bought on by the terrible events in Ukraine but beneath that there are serious tensions. If Hungary did not border Ulkraine it might well be on its way to being expelled for no longer being a working democracy. Germany is really struggling to reverse 40 years of policy and Poland is not that far behind Hungary in the democracy stakes.

    I reckon they have a rocky few years ahead. It will be even worse if Macron loses.
    Sadly could be true. The longer things go on, the tougher the choices, and the easier it will be for unity to fray. It's already not 100% pulling in the same direction, but the broad thrust at least is there.
    Surely Le Pen is going to lose
    Probably but the last runoff poll has it Le Pen 51.5% and Macron 48.5% which is too close for comfort for the Macron campaign

    http://harris-interactive.fr/wp-content/uploads/sites/6/2022/04/Rapport-Harris-Interactive-Toluna-V41-Intentions-de-vote-Presidentielle-2022-Challenges.pdf
  • OllyTOllyT Posts: 5,006
    edited April 2022

    I want Starmer's and Davey's wife to publish their tax return so the nation can see them. That they haven't done so already suggests that both obviously have something to hide. What is fair for Sunak should be fair for every other politician spouse orr even their children if they are old enough to earn money don't you all think?

    Senior politicians getting caught indulging in any form of industrial scale tax avoidance has hopeless optics, especially so when one is Chancellor of the Exchequer.

    Your request is a foolish one. Almost as foolish as the Sunaks' tax affairs.
    To be fair Mr Dunn is more used to the level of debate that occurs on ConHome (or UKIP Home as it really should be renamed). Stupid comments like his would barely raise an eyebrow
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,829
    Omnium said:

    Leon said:

    Fair play to Boris. That takes some personal bravery (and it’s a very good photo op for them both)
    Where do these linguistic things like 'fair play to' and 'fit for purpose' and 'approve this message' come from? I imagine that it might be the US (the last certainly) however why on earth would they want to butcher our shared language?

    The above three examples just feel plain wrong (!!) to me :)
    I believe 'fair play to' is an Irish expression.
  • StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 8,243
    Roger said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Quite a young crowd for Marine Le Pen in the south of France:

    https://twitter.com/MLP_officiel/status/1512380938277249025

    The South of France, Orange, etc., Is very much the FN heartland. Pretty much all their elected officials are there. (Which always surprised me: I would have thought they would have been stronger in the Past de Calais region.)
    I'll tell you who else was strong in the South of France..



    I'd guess many Pieds-Noirs resettling in the south also helped.


    Pour me a foaming pint of hasbeeno my good man.


    Is that Holly Valence?!
    Those who are without sin..... The man who gave us Brexit......

    Just to make clear I didn’t suggest Marshal Petain was Holly Valence…
  • JohnLilburneJohnLilburne Posts: 6,241

    A couple weeks ago a Wagner source told me of a hastily out together new PMC, owned by a son-in-law of a GRU general, and set up to get a piece of the money pie available during the war. A unit numbering approx 200 was stationed in Pripyaty /1

    They stationed them in old condemned apartment blocks, seemingly unaware of the risks. A couple days later a wounded merc ended up in a Belarus clinic, causing the Geiger counter to almost break. The rest of the mercs, hearing of this, deserted in panic. MoD were looking for them


    https://twitter.com/christogrozev/status/1512796540494041097

    I understood that Prypyat wasn't badly affected, the wind direction was such that it was blown over the Red Forest. Otherwise 20,000 people could have died.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,585
    CatMan said:

    Remeber when we laughed about a Chernobyl sequel:

    https://inews.co.uk/news/urgent-chernobyl-radiation-checks-needed-russians-disturbed-material-expert-1566516?ico=related_stories

    "Valeriy Simyonov, the chief safety engineer for the Chernobyl nuclear site, told the New York Times that one Russian soldier picked up a source of Cobalt-60 with his bare hands, exposing himself to so much radiation in a few seconds that it went off the scales of a Geiger counter."

    It does seem that the Russian soldiers at Chernobyl didn’t understand where they were, and had no radiation PPE nor training on how to behave there.

    There could be dozens of looted ‘trinkets’ out there, which no-one will know about until people turn up in hospital and send Geiger counters off the scale.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 51,821
    kle4 said:

    Nigelb said:

    Mass graves in #Chernihiv. 700 killed. Seems like each discovery is worse than the previous one
    https://twitter.com/lesiavasylenko/status/1512439627025682435

    Karadzic is now serving life imprisonment. On the Isle of Wight.

    I do wonder at the processes deciding who imprisons these people in the end. The former dictator of Liberia is serving time in a British prison as well. Must be a weird experience for them.
    Taylor-made?
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216

    DavidL said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Quite a young crowd for Marine Le Pen in the south of France:

    https://twitter.com/MLP_officiel/status/1512380938277249025

    It's a bit rough for Macron seeing as practically he's done more than any other leader in Europe for French consumer energy costs.
    But I guess electorates don't do counterfactual gratitude.
    Lots of people are angry with Macron: civil servants, who now need to work significantly longer before accruing their gold plated pensions; employees at medium and larger firms, who are now significantly easier to let go.

    Those changes needed to happen, and each President before Macron tried, and then gave up when faced with protests and strikes. He gets a lot of hate on here, but those reforms (which are really only the beginning) were much needed in France. It would be a shame to see someone with corbyn's economic policies come in, and drag France backwards.
    It would certainly be a shame for France. For us, not so much.

    If I was French I would (a) be very sad both in general and in the choice I was being given and (b) vote for him in the second round.
    This is hardly going to help unity of cause

    https://news.sky.com/story/emmanuel-macron-calls-polish-pm-mateusz-morawiecki-far-right-anti-semite-after-criticism-of-his-putin-calls-12585999
    That was a classic missed opportunity to “rise above it” - notably Johnson with Sholz focussed on what united them rather than the (non trivial) differences.
  • OmniumOmnium Posts: 10,759
    Farooq said:

    Omnium said:

    Omnium said:

    Leon said:

    Fair play to Boris. That takes some personal bravery (and it’s a very good photo op for them both)
    Where do these linguistic things like 'fair play to' and 'fit for purpose' and 'approve this message' come from? I imagine that it might be the US (the last certainly) however why on earth would they want to butcher our shared language?

    The above three examples just feel plain wrong (!!) to me :)
    Fit for purpose was John Reid I believe describing what the home office was not
    Yes. It is just a horrible phrase though. Simply wrong in some deep sense. (I'll quite happily defer to anyone that can point to long usage of such awfulness)
    Sale of Goods Act, 1979
    s14(3)
    If the buyer expressly or implicitly makes his purpose for the goods known to the seller, the seller is obliged to make sure the goods provided are fit for that purpose, if it is reasonable for the buyer to rely on the seller's expertise. An example of the application of this provision can be found in Godley v Perry.
    'fit for that purpose' - seems proper English to me. 'fit for purpose' not.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,714
    kle4 said:

    Nigelb said:

    Mass graves in #Chernihiv. 700 killed. Seems like each discovery is worse than the previous one
    https://twitter.com/lesiavasylenko/status/1512439627025682435

    Karadzic is now serving life imprisonment. On the Isle of Wight.

    I do wonder at the processes deciding who imprisons these people in the end. The former dictator of Liberia is serving time in a British prison as well. Must be a weird experience for them.
    Hopefully, it is a tad worse than just "weird".

  • OmniumOmnium Posts: 10,759

    kle4 said:

    Nigelb said:

    Mass graves in #Chernihiv. 700 killed. Seems like each discovery is worse than the previous one
    https://twitter.com/lesiavasylenko/status/1512439627025682435

    Karadzic is now serving life imprisonment. On the Isle of Wight.

    I do wonder at the processes deciding who imprisons these people in the end. The former dictator of Liberia is serving time in a British prison as well. Must be a weird experience for them.
    Taylor-made?
    Tim Brooke signed!
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,083
    edited April 2022

    kle4 said:

    Nigelb said:

    Mass graves in #Chernihiv. 700 killed. Seems like each discovery is worse than the previous one
    https://twitter.com/lesiavasylenko/status/1512439627025682435

    Karadzic is now serving life imprisonment. On the Isle of Wight.

    I do wonder at the processes deciding who imprisons these people in the end. The former dictator of Liberia is serving time in a British prison as well. Must be a weird experience for them.
    Hopefully, it is a tad worse than just "weird".

    I've seen Porridge, prison is a breeze.

    Then again, I've also seen Oz...
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,921
    HYUFD said:

    kle4 said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Quite a young crowd for Marine Le Pen in the south of France:

    https://twitter.com/MLP_officiel/status/1512380938277249025

    It's a bit rough for Macron seeing as practically he's done more than any other leader in Europe for French consumer energy costs.
    But I guess electorates don't do counterfactual gratitude.
    Lots of people are angry with Macron: civil servants, who now need to work significantly longer before accruing their gold plated pensions; employees at medium and larger firms, who are now significantly easier to let go.

    Those changes needed to happen, and each President before Macron tried, and then gave up when faced with protests and strikes. He gets a lot of hate on here, but those reforms (which are really only the beginning) were much needed in France. It would be a shame to see someone with corbyn's economic policies come in, and drag France backwards.
    It would certainly be a shame for France. For us, not so much.

    If I was French I would (a) be very sad both in general and in the choice I was being given and (b) vote for him in the second round.
    This is hardly going to help unity of cause

    https://news.sky.com/story/emmanuel-macron-calls-polish-pm-mateusz-morawiecki-far-right-anti-semite-after-criticism-of-his-putin-calls-12585999
    What we are seeing in the EU at the moment is a patina of unity bought on by the terrible events in Ukraine but beneath that there are serious tensions. If Hungary did not border Ulkraine it might well be on its way to being expelled for no longer being a working democracy. Germany is really struggling to reverse 40 years of policy and Poland is not that far behind Hungary in the democracy stakes.

    I reckon they have a rocky few years ahead. It will be even worse if Macron loses.
    Sadly could be true. The longer things go on, the tougher the choices, and the easier it will be for unity to fray. It's already not 100% pulling in the same direction, but the broad thrust at least is there.
    Surely Le Pen is going to lose
    Probably but the last runoff poll has it Le Pen 51.5% and Macron 48.5% which is too close for comfort for the Macron campaign

    http://harris-interactive.fr/wp-content/uploads/sites/6/2022/04/Rapport-Harris-Interactive-Toluna-V41-Intentions-de-vote-Presidentielle-2022-Challenges.pdf
    Apologies Macron 51.5% and Le Pen 48.5%
  • OmniumOmnium Posts: 10,759
    Farooq said:

    Omnium said:

    Farooq said:

    Omnium said:

    Omnium said:

    Leon said:

    Fair play to Boris. That takes some personal bravery (and it’s a very good photo op for them both)
    Where do these linguistic things like 'fair play to' and 'fit for purpose' and 'approve this message' come from? I imagine that it might be the US (the last certainly) however why on earth would they want to butcher our shared language?

    The above three examples just feel plain wrong (!!) to me :)
    Fit for purpose was John Reid I believe describing what the home office was not
    Yes. It is just a horrible phrase though. Simply wrong in some deep sense. (I'll quite happily defer to anyone that can point to long usage of such awfulness)
    Sale of Goods Act, 1979
    s14(3)
    If the buyer expressly or implicitly makes his purpose for the goods known to the seller, the seller is obliged to make sure the goods provided are fit for that purpose, if it is reasonable for the buyer to rely on the seller's expertise. An example of the application of this provision can be found in Godley v Perry.
    'fit for that purpose' - seems proper English to me. 'fit for purpose' not.
    I take the view that if you make yourself understood, that's good enough. On that basis, "fit for purpose" is fit for purpose.
    Well who am I to argue? I'll continue not liking it though.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,714
    DavidL said:

    n a videotaped message, Ukrainian president Volodymyr Zelensky said Russia, the largest country in the world by area, had attacked his nation, Ukraine, the largest country in the world by courage.

    This man does soundbites like no one since JFK. He's just brilliant at it.

    And JFK had someone else writing them.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,812
    Omnium said:

    Farooq said:

    Omnium said:

    Omnium said:

    Leon said:

    Fair play to Boris. That takes some personal bravery (and it’s a very good photo op for them both)
    Where do these linguistic things like 'fair play to' and 'fit for purpose' and 'approve this message' come from? I imagine that it might be the US (the last certainly) however why on earth would they want to butcher our shared language?

    The above three examples just feel plain wrong (!!) to me :)
    Fit for purpose was John Reid I believe describing what the home office was not
    Yes. It is just a horrible phrase though. Simply wrong in some deep sense. (I'll quite happily defer to anyone that can point to long usage of such awfulness)
    Sale of Goods Act, 1979
    s14(3)
    If the buyer expressly or implicitly makes his purpose for the goods known to the seller, the seller is obliged to make sure the goods provided are fit for that purpose, if it is reasonable for the buyer to rely on the seller's expertise. An example of the application of this provision can be found in Godley v Perry.
    'fit for that purpose' - seems proper English to me. 'fit for purpose' not.
    I found his "not a shot in anger" indication about Afghanistan far, far more bizarre and indeed dishonest.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,829
    DavidL said:

    n a videotaped message, Ukrainian president Volodymyr Zelensky said Russia, the largest country in the world by area, had attacked his nation, Ukraine, the largest country in the world by courage.

    This man does soundbites like no one since JFK. He's just brilliant at it.

    So long as he doesn't call himself a doughnut.
  • YBarddCwscYBarddCwsc Posts: 7,172
    Carnyx said:

    Omnium said:

    Leon said:

    Fair play to Boris. That takes some personal bravery (and it’s a very good photo op for them both)
    Where do these linguistic things like 'fair play to' and 'fit for purpose' and 'approve this message' come from? I imagine that it might be the US (the last certainly) however why on earth would they want to butcher our shared language?

    The above three examples just feel plain wrong (!!) to me :)
    I believe 'fair play to' is an Irish expression.
    Chwarae Teg

    It is certainly a Welsh expression & occurs in the work of mid-twentieth century Anglo-Welsh writers like Rhys Davies and Dylan Thomas.

    Maybe Irish as well, though I don't recall its use in 'Father Ted' :)
  • JohnLilburneJohnLilburne Posts: 6,241
    Carnyx said:

    Omnium said:

    Leon said:

    Fair play to Boris. That takes some personal bravery (and it’s a very good photo op for them both)
    Where do these linguistic things like 'fair play to' and 'fit for purpose' and 'approve this message' come from? I imagine that it might be the US (the last certainly) however why on earth would they want to butcher our shared language?

    The above three examples just feel plain wrong (!!) to me :)
    I believe 'fair play to' is an Irish expression.
    I assume it's a sporting expression, "fair play" is a standard phrase meaning something is acceptable according to the laws of the game. Maybe golf.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,714
    I've gone for Snow Leopardess and Longhouse Poet in the National.

  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,812

    DavidL said:

    n a videotaped message, Ukrainian president Volodymyr Zelensky said Russia, the largest country in the world by area, had attacked his nation, Ukraine, the largest country in the world by courage.

    This man does soundbites like no one since JFK. He's just brilliant at it.

    And JFK had someone else writing them.
    Indeed, the late great Teddy Sorensen, arguably one of the best speechwriters in history.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,375
    TimT said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Quite a young crowd for Marine Le Pen in the south of France:

    https://twitter.com/MLP_officiel/status/1512380938277249025

    The South of France, Orange, etc., Is very much the FN heartland. Pretty much all their elected officials are there. (Which always surprised me: I would have thought they would have been stronger in the Past de Calais region.)
    I'll tell you who else was strong in the South of France..



    I'd guess many Pieds-Noirs resettling in the south also helped.


    The one time I visited the town of Vichy it felt, quite irrationally, wrong at a visceral level, that somehow I had soiled myself for going there.
    Really? Most people just wet themselves.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,413
    So.. I'm up to having some sort of bet on 11 horses now.

    Why do I always do this
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,639
    MattW said:

    An excellent programme from the BBC WS this lunchtime: The Shadow of Algiers.

    Looking at the legacy, impact in France, contemporary relevance.

    - An interview with an 87 year old French woman who planted a bomb for the FLN when a student.
    - The impact on the Front National - JM Le Pen left his monogrammed knife planted in a house search in Algeria, and it emerged decades later.
    - The Paris police massacre of Algerian demonstrators in 1961
    - Macron's efforts to start France coming to terms with it in the last year or two.He deserves credit for that.

    I had not realised quite the number of assassination attempts there had been on de Gaulle, or potential coup attempt(s?) from his own military.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/w3ct41d0

    The Battle of Algiers is well worth watching. It captures both the insurrectionists and the security forces very well, with all the barbarity of each.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,585
    Omnium said:

    Farooq said:

    Omnium said:

    Omnium said:

    Leon said:

    Fair play to Boris. That takes some personal bravery (and it’s a very good photo op for them both)
    Where do these linguistic things like 'fair play to' and 'fit for purpose' and 'approve this message' come from? I imagine that it might be the US (the last certainly) however why on earth would they want to butcher our shared language?

    The above three examples just feel plain wrong (!!) to me :)
    Fit for purpose was John Reid I believe describing what the home office was not
    Yes. It is just a horrible phrase though. Simply wrong in some deep sense. (I'll quite happily defer to anyone that can point to long usage of such awfulness)
    Sale of Goods Act, 1979
    s14(3)
    If the buyer expressly or implicitly makes his purpose for the goods known to the seller, the seller is obliged to make sure the goods provided are fit for that purpose, if it is reasonable for the buyer to rely on the seller's expertise. An example of the application of this provision can be found in Godley v Perry.
    'fit for that purpose' - seems proper English to me. 'fit for purpose' not.
    Fitness for purpose was originally an engineering concept, where a supplier would say (legally) that the product being supplied was good to be used in the specific way intended by the recipient.

    As a simple example, the bricks to build a house would be good for a two-storey house, but not for a four-storey house, as they had specific load limits. Same bricks, different purpose.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,812

    Omnium said:

    Omnium said:

    Leon said:

    Fair play to Boris. That takes some personal bravery (and it’s a very good photo op for them both)
    Where do these linguistic things like 'fair play to' and 'fit for purpose' and 'approve this message' come from? I imagine that it might be the US (the last certainly) however why on earth would they want to butcher our shared language?

    The above three examples just feel plain wrong (!!) to me :)
    Fit for purpose was John Reid I believe describing what the home office was not
    Yes. It is just a horrible phrase though. Simply wrong in some deep sense. (I'll quite happily defer to anyone that can point to long usage of such awfulness)
    Reminiscent of the tautology ‘survival of the fittest’.
    That ignores the random element, you can be the fastest and best trained gazelle on the savanna but if you trip or stumble at the wrong time you are lunch.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,639

    kle4 said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Quite a young crowd for Marine Le Pen in the south of France:

    https://twitter.com/MLP_officiel/status/1512380938277249025

    It's a bit rough for Macron seeing as practically he's done more than any other leader in Europe for French consumer energy costs.
    But I guess electorates don't do counterfactual gratitude.
    Lots of people are angry with Macron: civil servants, who now need to work significantly longer before accruing their gold plated pensions; employees at medium and larger firms, who are now significantly easier to let go.

    Those changes needed to happen, and each President before Macron tried, and then gave up when faced with protests and strikes. He gets a lot of hate on here, but those reforms (which are really only the beginning) were much needed in France. It would be a shame to see someone with corbyn's economic policies come in, and drag France backwards.
    It would certainly be a shame for France. For us, not so much.

    If I was French I would (a) be very sad both in general and in the choice I was being given and (b) vote for him in the second round.
    This is hardly going to help unity of cause

    https://news.sky.com/story/emmanuel-macron-calls-polish-pm-mateusz-morawiecki-far-right-anti-semite-after-criticism-of-his-putin-calls-12585999
    What we are seeing in the EU at the moment is a patina of unity bought on by the terrible events in Ukraine but beneath that there are serious tensions. If Hungary did not border Ulkraine it might well be on its way to being expelled for no longer being a working democracy. Germany is really struggling to reverse 40 years of policy and Poland is not that far behind Hungary in the democracy stakes.

    I reckon they have a rocky few years ahead. It will be even worse if Macron loses.
    Sadly could be true. The longer things go on, the tougher the choices, and the easier it will be for unity to fray. It's already not 100% pulling in the same direction, but the broad thrust at least is there.
    Surely Le Pen is going to lose
    I am £600 better off if she does. Not going to cash out as I am on at an average of 14.5
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,812

    So.. I'm up to having some sort of bet on 11 horses now.

    Why do I always do this

    So you can claim to be a winner?
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,639
    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Quite a young crowd for Marine Le Pen in the south of France:

    https://twitter.com/MLP_officiel/status/1512380938277249025

    It's a bit rough for Macron seeing as practically he's done more than any other leader in Europe for French consumer energy costs.
    But I guess electorates don't do counterfactual gratitude.
    Lots of people are angry with Macron: civil servants, who now need to work significantly longer before accruing their gold plated pensions; employees at medium and larger firms, who are now significantly easier to let go.

    Those changes needed to happen, and each President before Macron tried, and then gave up when faced with protests and strikes. He gets a lot of hate on here, but those reforms (which are really only the beginning) were much needed in France. It would be a shame to see someone with corbyn's economic policies come in, and drag France backwards.
    It would certainly be a shame for France. For us, not so much.

    If I was French I would (a) be very sad both in general and in the choice I was being given and (b) vote for him in the second round.
    This is hardly going to help unity of cause

    https://news.sky.com/story/emmanuel-macron-calls-polish-pm-mateusz-morawiecki-far-right-anti-semite-after-criticism-of-his-putin-calls-12585999
    What we are seeing in the EU at the moment is a patina of unity bought on by the terrible events in Ukraine but beneath that there are serious tensions. If Hungary did not border Ulkraine it might well be on its way to being expelled for no longer being a working democracy. Germany is really struggling to reverse 40 years of policy and Poland is not that far behind Hungary in the democracy stakes.

    I reckon they have a rocky few years ahead. It will be even worse if Macron loses.
    PB predictions of the collapse of the EU are a true hardy perennial.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,375
    Farooq said:

    Farooq said:

    Please stay in Kyiv you sack of lard.

    What a deeply moronic comment.
    I apologise. Clearly what I was was wrong. What I should have said was:
    Please stay in Kyiv you worthless sack of lard.
    Sacks of lard are not worthless. They command reasonable prices at the moment.

    Johnson, however...
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,413
    Leon said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Quite a young crowd for Marine Le Pen in the south of France:

    https://twitter.com/MLP_officiel/status/1512380938277249025

    It's a bit rough for Macron seeing as practically he's done more than any other leader in Europe for French consumer energy costs.
    But I guess electorates don't do counterfactual gratitude.
    But this might be like Brexit.

    British voters listened to all the sensible economic arguments against Brexit and said Yeah well fuck that, we want sovereignty. They may have been deluded, swindled, wrong and/or evil, but polls show sovereignty was THE most important argument (even more than migration)

    Sometimes it’s not always “the economy, stupid”

    France MAY be approaching one of these inflection points. I remain highly skeptical that Le Pen can win, but it’s gonna be close
    I don't see why Trump and Brexit can win, along with Orban and Law & Justice and Le Pen not.

    The worst thing Macron and the "Establishment" in France could do is attack her as a fascist and her voters accordingly.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,812
    Foxy said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Quite a young crowd for Marine Le Pen in the south of France:

    https://twitter.com/MLP_officiel/status/1512380938277249025

    It's a bit rough for Macron seeing as practically he's done more than any other leader in Europe for French consumer energy costs.
    But I guess electorates don't do counterfactual gratitude.
    Lots of people are angry with Macron: civil servants, who now need to work significantly longer before accruing their gold plated pensions; employees at medium and larger firms, who are now significantly easier to let go.

    Those changes needed to happen, and each President before Macron tried, and then gave up when faced with protests and strikes. He gets a lot of hate on here, but those reforms (which are really only the beginning) were much needed in France. It would be a shame to see someone with corbyn's economic policies come in, and drag France backwards.
    It would certainly be a shame for France. For us, not so much.

    If I was French I would (a) be very sad both in general and in the choice I was being given and (b) vote for him in the second round.
    This is hardly going to help unity of cause

    https://news.sky.com/story/emmanuel-macron-calls-polish-pm-mateusz-morawiecki-far-right-anti-semite-after-criticism-of-his-putin-calls-12585999
    What we are seeing in the EU at the moment is a patina of unity bought on by the terrible events in Ukraine but beneath that there are serious tensions. If Hungary did not border Ulkraine it might well be on its way to being expelled for no longer being a working democracy. Germany is really struggling to reverse 40 years of policy and Poland is not that far behind Hungary in the democracy stakes.

    I reckon they have a rocky few years ahead. It will be even worse if Macron loses.
    PB predictions of the collapse of the EU are a true hardy perennial.
    I have not and am not predicting the collapse of the EU. But I do think it is at serious risk of fraying at the edges. I hope that I am wrong. On the plus side, I usually am.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,714
    This is just crazy...

    Jared T Nelson
    @Jaredtnelson
    Day 22 of my Shanghai Covid lockdown

    https://twitter.com/Jaredtnelson/status/1512713451587710977
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,585

    Leon said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Quite a young crowd for Marine Le Pen in the south of France:

    https://twitter.com/MLP_officiel/status/1512380938277249025

    It's a bit rough for Macron seeing as practically he's done more than any other leader in Europe for French consumer energy costs.
    But I guess electorates don't do counterfactual gratitude.
    But this might be like Brexit.

    British voters listened to all the sensible economic arguments against Brexit and said Yeah well fuck that, we want sovereignty. They may have been deluded, swindled, wrong and/or evil, but polls show sovereignty was THE most important argument (even more than migration)

    Sometimes it’s not always “the economy, stupid”

    France MAY be approaching one of these inflection points. I remain highly skeptical that Le Pen can win, but it’s gonna be close
    I don't see why Trump and Brexit can win, along with Orban and Law & Justice and Le Pen not.

    The worst thing Macron and the "Establishment" in France could do is attack her as a fascist and her voters accordingly.
    What’s French for “Basket of Deplorables”?
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,413
    Snow Leopardess looks very focussed in the parade ring
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,083
    Foxy said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Quite a young crowd for Marine Le Pen in the south of France:

    https://twitter.com/MLP_officiel/status/1512380938277249025

    It's a bit rough for Macron seeing as practically he's done more than any other leader in Europe for French consumer energy costs.
    But I guess electorates don't do counterfactual gratitude.
    Lots of people are angry with Macron: civil servants, who now need to work significantly longer before accruing their gold plated pensions; employees at medium and larger firms, who are now significantly easier to let go.

    Those changes needed to happen, and each President before Macron tried, and then gave up when faced with protests and strikes. He gets a lot of hate on here, but those reforms (which are really only the beginning) were much needed in France. It would be a shame to see someone with corbyn's economic policies come in, and drag France backwards.
    It would certainly be a shame for France. For us, not so much.

    If I was French I would (a) be very sad both in general and in the choice I was being given and (b) vote for him in the second round.
    This is hardly going to help unity of cause

    https://news.sky.com/story/emmanuel-macron-calls-polish-pm-mateusz-morawiecki-far-right-anti-semite-after-criticism-of-his-putin-calls-12585999
    What we are seeing in the EU at the moment is a patina of unity bought on by the terrible events in Ukraine but beneath that there are serious tensions. If Hungary did not border Ulkraine it might well be on its way to being expelled for no longer being a working democracy. Germany is really struggling to reverse 40 years of policy and Poland is not that far behind Hungary in the democracy stakes.

    I reckon they have a rocky few years ahead. It will be even worse if Macron loses.
    PB predictions of the collapse of the EU are a true hardy perennial.
    As are people being overdramatic about what people are predicting about the EU, since I see a list of tensions and one potential 'on the way' to being expelled rather than anything imminent. Hardly a prediction of collapse, but I suppose it makes it easier than the not in dispute fact that there are tensions over what to do re Ukraine in the EU - which is only right and natural of them, there are 27 members of course there are tensions.
  • OmniumOmnium Posts: 10,759
    DavidL said:

    Omnium said:

    Farooq said:

    Omnium said:

    Omnium said:

    Leon said:

    Fair play to Boris. That takes some personal bravery (and it’s a very good photo op for them both)
    Where do these linguistic things like 'fair play to' and 'fit for purpose' and 'approve this message' come from? I imagine that it might be the US (the last certainly) however why on earth would they want to butcher our shared language?

    The above three examples just feel plain wrong (!!) to me :)
    Fit for purpose was John Reid I believe describing what the home office was not
    Yes. It is just a horrible phrase though. Simply wrong in some deep sense. (I'll quite happily defer to anyone that can point to long usage of such awfulness)
    Sale of Goods Act, 1979
    s14(3)
    If the buyer expressly or implicitly makes his purpose for the goods known to the seller, the seller is obliged to make sure the goods provided are fit for that purpose, if it is reasonable for the buyer to rely on the seller's expertise. An example of the application of this provision can be found in Godley v Perry.
    'fit for that purpose' - seems proper English to me. 'fit for purpose' not.
    I found his "not a shot in anger" indication about Afghanistan far, far more bizarre and indeed dishonest.
    I was only (above) talking about the language used. Afghanistan has been and is a mess. The biggest mistake was the initial commitment.

    There are no shots fired other than in anger. Defence is simply anger forced upon you. Attack is someone else's anger that you probably don't agree with.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,191
    I haven't backed her but Snow Leopardess would be a great story.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,413
    Omnium said:

    I'm currently reading Max Hasting's book on the Korean War. (Interested if anyone can suggest others)

    There's a really striking parallel of a war busily destroying an innocent nation as a proxy for a far bigger argument.

    (I don't think that it's quite true in either case - both wars are due to more domestic issues)

    That's a great book.

    When Max Hastings isn't on his high-horse slagging off the British military establishment he can be a superb and highly insightful military historian.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,083

    Leon said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Quite a young crowd for Marine Le Pen in the south of France:

    https://twitter.com/MLP_officiel/status/1512380938277249025

    It's a bit rough for Macron seeing as practically he's done more than any other leader in Europe for French consumer energy costs.
    But I guess electorates don't do counterfactual gratitude.
    But this might be like Brexit.

    British voters listened to all the sensible economic arguments against Brexit and said Yeah well fuck that, we want sovereignty. They may have been deluded, swindled, wrong and/or evil, but polls show sovereignty was THE most important argument (even more than migration)

    Sometimes it’s not always “the economy, stupid”

    France MAY be approaching one of these inflection points. I remain highly skeptical that Le Pen can win, but it’s gonna be close
    I don't see why Trump and Brexit can win, along with Orban and Law & Justice and Le Pen not.

    The worst thing Macron and the "Establishment" in France could do is attack her as a fascist and her voters accordingly.
    "Vote for X not the fascist" has worked at several French elections, I suppose it must stop working eventually.

    If Le Pen loses again she is surely shown as not the answer, but where will her support go for next time?
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,083

    Omnium said:

    I'm currently reading Max Hasting's book on the Korean War. (Interested if anyone can suggest others)

    There's a really striking parallel of a war busily destroying an innocent nation as a proxy for a far bigger argument.

    (I don't think that it's quite true in either case - both wars are due to more domestic issues)

    When Max Hastings isn't on his high-horse slagging off the British military establishment he can be a superb and highly insightful military historian.
    Max Hastings is Dura Ace?
This discussion has been closed.