It's a bit rough for Macron seeing as practically he's done more than any other leader in Europe for French consumer energy costs. But I guess electorates don't do counterfactual gratitude.
But this might be like Brexit.
British voters listened to all the sensible economic arguments against Brexit and said Yeah well fuck that, we want sovereignty. They may have been deluded, swindled, wrong and/or evil, but polls show sovereignty was THE most important argument (even more than migration)
Sometimes it’s not always “the economy, stupid”
France MAY be approaching one of these inflection points. I remain highly skeptical that Le Pen can win, but it’s gonna be close
I don't see why Trump and Brexit can win, along with Orban and Law & Justice and Le Pen not.
The worst thing Macron and the "Establishment" in France could do is attack her as a fascist and her voters accordingly.
"Vote for X not the fascist" has worked at several French elections, I suppose it must stop working eventually.
If Le Pen loses again she is surely shown as not the answer, but where will her support go for next time?
I dont think Le Pen is a fascist. Her party has some deeply unpleasant roots, bug the current Le Pen did chuck out her own father for anti-semitism.
She is a right wing populist with all the political incoherence that that entails, and will be very divisive, but France will not be Fascist.
....and neither will it vote for a right wing nationalist. That's something the UK do.
I don’t think any of our forecasters did all that well on the National, did they?
Deeply, deeply insulted.
I offered you SANTINI and FIDDLERONTHEHOOF and with any reasonable bookie you'll paid on fourth and fifth each way. SANTINI returned 33s having been 50s this morning with Paddy and others.
Apologies; not the greatest fan of horse racing. I could recall Snow Leopardess being tipped, which didn’t even finish!
We welcome @BorisJohnson in Kyiv, the first G7 leader to arrive in Ukraine since the beginning of the large-scale war. We are strengthening our union of democracies. Be brave, like Boris. Be brave, like Ukraine. #BRAVEUKRAINE
The alternative is that Boris does not recover or cocks up something else and someone else leads the Tories into the next election and is accordingly next PM. Quite hard to call on those 2 options but the lack of a clear successor now on the Tory side makes that side of the bet a lot less attractive.
If they had to make a quick unscheduled replacement in the event of (another) catastrophic Johnson fuck up the tories would just go for a safe pair of centrist hands in a 'save the furniture' strategy when defeat is inevitable. Maybe Rat Eyes?
Naah, they are all the way down the rabbit hole now. The Johnsonite wing of the party were pretty aggrieved by California Scheming pushing and briefing and not being a Boosterite knobber. So once the Big Dog inevitably craps on a lawn even he can't just ignore, surely they will anoint someone proper.
Remember that everything important is at stake. Important being the ability to trouser public money for their friends and patrons. The ability to degrade the public trust so that scrutiny can be dodged or even removed. The ability to reverse some of the worst excesses in the permissive society like Channel 4 and the Rule of Law.
So no, not Mad-Eye Hunt. They'll go for Javid. Or Williamson. Or Dorries.
What odds are you wanting?
Its a hypothetical. What would Big Dog need to do to get removed?
Not get a CON majority at the next election.
Johnson only needs to get ~315 seats like May in 2017 to retain power in 2024 and that is where the value betting lies IMO. Even a small majority can't be ruled out as Starmer is doing utterly terribly on the basis of real election results as we saw on Thursday night.
We'll get a pretty good idea of how likely Starmer is to become PM on 5th May.
I can see Labour falling flat, failing to gain any London councils and ending up tied in the NEV.
(Hello jamesgraves, welcome to PB) I'd be amazed if Labour didn't do well. I think they'll gain Wandsworth, and that'll be a huge gain. I hope they don't gain Westminster because that's where I live. (Nobody wants a Labour council)
That's what the council tax payers think in Westminster and Wandsworth, IE they don't want a Labour council and they will get their wish.
It's a bit rough for Macron seeing as practically he's done more than any other leader in Europe for French consumer energy costs. But I guess electorates don't do counterfactual gratitude.
But this might be like Brexit.
British voters listened to all the sensible economic arguments against Brexit and said Yeah well fuck that, we want sovereignty. They may have been deluded, swindled, wrong and/or evil, but polls show sovereignty was THE most important argument (even more than migration)
Sometimes it’s not always “the economy, stupid”
France MAY be approaching one of these inflection points. I remain highly skeptical that Le Pen can win, but it’s gonna be close
I don't see why Trump and Brexit can win, along with Orban and Law & Justice and Le Pen not.
The worst thing Macron and the "Establishment" in France could do is attack her as a fascist and her voters accordingly.
"Vote for X not the fascist" has worked at several French elections, I suppose it must stop working eventually.
If Le Pen loses again she is surely shown as not the answer, but where will her support go for next time?
I dont think Le Pen is a fascist. Her party has some deeply unpleasant roots, bug the current Le Pen did chuck out her own father for anti-semitism.
She is a right wing populist with all the political incoherence that that entails, and will be very divisive, but France will not be Fascist.
....and neither will it vote for a right wing nationalist. That's something the UK do.
Le Pen is on 48.5% in the latest French runoff poll. More than the 46% the Boris led Conservatives and Farage's Brexit Party got combined in the 2019 general election and also more than the 47% Trump got in 2020 and the 46% he got in 2016 in the US
I don’t think any of our forecasters did all that well on the National, did they?
Deeply, deeply insulted.
I offered you SANTINI and FIDDLERONTHEHOOF and with any reasonable bookie you'll paid on fourth and fifth each way. SANTINI returned 33s having been 50s this morning with Paddy and others.
And the winner aged 7 has proved it all holding off the challenge at the end of that distance and those fences. More to come from this GN winner.
Some cheers but also some boos in the crowd in response to the national anthem.
Still some sectarianism in Liverpool?
Anger at the greatest injustice and blood libel in the history of the UK.
The British state and the Conservatives are seen equally culpable.
Ironically David Cameron and Dominic Grieve are seen as men of honour in Liverpool now
Greatest injustice in the history of the U.K. Bit of a stretch.
97 people died, the rozzers covered it up for over 20 years, the fans were blamed, they were accused of stealing from the dead fans, urinating on them, assaulting the rescue services, which was a smear.
Some cheers but also some boos in the crowd in response to the national anthem.
Still some sectarianism in Liverpool?
Anger at the greatest injustice and blood libel in the history of the UK.
The British state and the Conservatives are seen equally culpable.
Ironically David Cameron and Dominic Grieve are seen as men of honour in Liverpool now
Greatest injustice in the history of the U.K. Bit of a stretch.
97 people died, the rozzers covered it up for over 20 years, the fans were blamed, they were accused of stealing from the dead fans, urinating on them, assaulting the rescue services, which was a smear.
No one has been convicted and unlikely to be so.
That’s trial by jury for you.
It should be remembered, that fences were there for a reason. And Liverpool fans played their part in that reason.
I fear for ECLAIR SURF who took a bad fall at the third fence but otherwise everything else looked to come home all right.
Plenty in contention crossing the Melling Road but that final change of pace from the second last eluded all bar the front two. Winner only a 7-y-o but not easy to fancy on his efforts this season, Second giving 12 lbs ran a blinder but he might be one of those destined to go close often and never win.
First two nicely ahead of two decent types in DELTA WORK and SANTINI. LONGHOUSE POET went very well for a long way - might be one for next year.
The alternative is that Boris does not recover or cocks up something else and someone else leads the Tories into the next election and is accordingly next PM. Quite hard to call on those 2 options but the lack of a clear successor now on the Tory side makes that side of the bet a lot less attractive.
If they had to make a quick unscheduled replacement in the event of (another) catastrophic Johnson fuck up the tories would just go for a safe pair of centrist hands in a 'save the furniture' strategy when defeat is inevitable. Maybe Rat Eyes?
Naah, they are all the way down the rabbit hole now. The Johnsonite wing of the party were pretty aggrieved by California Scheming pushing and briefing and not being a Boosterite knobber. So once the Big Dog inevitably craps on a lawn even he can't just ignore, surely they will anoint someone proper.
Remember that everything important is at stake. Important being the ability to trouser public money for their friends and patrons. The ability to degrade the public trust so that scrutiny can be dodged or even removed. The ability to reverse some of the worst excesses in the permissive society like Channel 4 and the Rule of Law.
So no, not Mad-Eye Hunt. They'll go for Javid. Or Williamson. Or Dorries.
What odds are you wanting?
Its a hypothetical. What would Big Dog need to do to get removed?
Not get a CON majority at the next election.
Johnson only needs to get ~315 seats like May in 2017 to retain power in 2024 and that is where the value betting lies IMO. Even a small majority can't be ruled out as Starmer is doing utterly terribly on the basis of real election results as we saw on Thursday night.
We'll get a pretty good idea of how likely Starmer is to become PM on 5th May.
I can see Labour falling flat, failing to gain any London councils and ending up tied in the NEV.
(Hello jamesgraves, welcome to PB) I'd be amazed if Labour didn't do well. I think they'll gain Wandsworth, and that'll be a huge gain. I hope they don't gain Westminster because that's where I live. (Nobody wants a Labour council)
That's what the council tax payers think in Westminster and Wandsworth, IE they don't want a Labour council and they will get their wish.
I guess there was an 'If' missing at the start.
Yes, of course - it's a question of what people, all of us, want. That's democracy.
Spectator had powerful piece this weekend on war crimes and collecting evidence. No one thought they would ever see the Serb leaders anywhere near the Hague in 1990s. But they painstaking collected the evidence and kept building it over years and years.
Karadzic is now serving life imprisonment. On the Isle of Wight.
Spiked had to keep revising down the number of "missing" bodies from the Srebrenica massacre over the years as they trotted out their genocide denial pieces.
Eventually they stopped giving a number and just vaguely talked about made up allegations.
I don’t think any of our forecasters did all that well on the National, did they?
Deeply, deeply insulted.
I offered you SANTINI and FIDDLERONTHEHOOF and with any reasonable bookie you'll paid on fourth and fifth each way. SANTINI returned 33s having been 50s this morning with Paddy and others.
Some cheers but also some boos in the crowd in response to the national anthem.
Still some sectarianism in Liverpool?
Anger at the greatest injustice and blood libel in the history of the UK.
The British state and the Conservatives are seen equally culpable.
Ironically David Cameron and Dominic Grieve are seen as men of honour in Liverpool now
Greatest injustice in the history of the U.K. Bit of a stretch.
97 people died, the rozzers covered it up for over 20 years, the fans were blamed, they were accused of stealing from the dead fans, urinating on them, assaulting the rescue services, which was a smear.
No one has been convicted and unlikely to be so.
That’s trial by jury for you.
It should be remembered, that fences were there for a reason. And Liverpool fans played their part in that reason.
If you don't mind me saying, that is a real twat comment under the circumstances.
The people that died were not football hooligans. It was error and cover up. How Duckinfield sleeps at night is beyond me
Conservative MP Nigel Adams has confirmed he will step down at the next general election in 2024.
Mr Adams - who is also a minister without portfolio - was first elected as Selby and Ainsty's MP in 2010 and has defended the seat three times in the constituency.
I fear for ECLAIR SURF who took a bad fall at the third fence but otherwise everything else looked to come home all right.
Plenty in contention crossing the Melling Road but that final change of pace from the second last eluded all bar the front two. Winner only a 7-y-o but not easy to fancy on his efforts this season, Second giving 12 lbs ran a blinder but he might be one of those destined to go close often and never win.
First two nicely ahead of two decent types in DELTA WORK and SANTINI. LONGHOUSE POET went very well for a long way - might be one for next year.
It’s a good point. Take notes for next year. One of our guests was on Santini. Despite all the talk of softening the race and attracting the class of eclair surf in, the fences are still brutes. Snow Leopard rightly pulled up if it isn’t working.
Some cheers but also some boos in the crowd in response to the national anthem.
Still some sectarianism in Liverpool?
Anger at the greatest injustice and blood libel in the history of the UK.
The British state and the Conservatives are seen equally culpable.
Ironically David Cameron and Dominic Grieve are seen as men of honour in Liverpool now
Greatest injustice in the history of the U.K. Bit of a stretch.
97 people died, the rozzers covered it up for over 20 years, the fans were blamed, they were accused of stealing from the dead fans, urinating on them, assaulting the rescue services, which was a smear.
No one has been convicted and unlikely to be so.
That’s trial by jury for you.
It should be remembered, that fences were there for a reason. And Liverpool fans played their part in that reason.
If you don't mind me saying, that is a real twat comment under the circumstances.
The people that died were not football hooligans. It was error and cover up. How Duckinfield sleeps at night is beyond me
The people primarily responsible for the deaths were. There's a reason this shit doesn't happen at cricket matches.
Let's have a think about how Liverpool for on in Europe that year
It's a bit rough for Macron seeing as practically he's done more than any other leader in Europe for French consumer energy costs. But I guess electorates don't do counterfactual gratitude.
But this might be like Brexit.
British voters listened to all the sensible economic arguments against Brexit and said Yeah well fuck that, we want sovereignty. They may have been deluded, swindled, wrong and/or evil, but polls show sovereignty was THE most important argument (even more than migration)
Sometimes it’s not always “the economy, stupid”
France MAY be approaching one of these inflection points. I remain highly skeptical that Le Pen can win, but it’s gonna be close
I don't see why Trump and Brexit can win, along with Orban and Law & Justice and Le Pen not.
The worst thing Macron and the "Establishment" in France could do is attack her as a fascist and her voters accordingly.
"Vote for X not the fascist" has worked at several French elections, I suppose it must stop working eventually.
If Le Pen loses again she is surely shown as not the answer, but where will her support go for next time?
I dont think Le Pen is a fascist. Her party has some deeply unpleasant roots, bug the current Le Pen did chuck out her own father for anti-semitism.
She is a right wing populist with all the political incoherence that that entails, and will be very divisive, but France will not be Fascist.
Yes. Getting these words right matters
Putin is a fascist. An unusually pure example, in fact
Le Pen is an ethnocentric populist espousing statist economics
Reserve the big nasty words for those that truly deserve them
We welcome @BorisJohnson in Kyiv, the first G7 leader to arrive in Ukraine since the beginning of the large-scale war. We are strengthening our union of democracies. Be brave, like Boris. Be brave, like Ukraine. #BRAVEUKRAINE
Some cheers but also some boos in the crowd in response to the national anthem.
Still some sectarianism in Liverpool?
Anger at the greatest injustice and blood libel in the history of the UK.
The British state and the Conservatives are seen equally culpable.
Ironically David Cameron and Dominic Grieve are seen as men of honour in Liverpool now
Greatest injustice in the history of the U.K. Bit of a stretch.
97 people died, the rozzers covered it up for over 20 years, the fans were blamed, they were accused of stealing from the dead fans, urinating on them, assaulting the rescue services, which was a smear.
Some cheers but also some boos in the crowd in response to the national anthem.
Still some sectarianism in Liverpool?
Anger at the greatest injustice and blood libel in the history of the UK.
The British state and the Conservatives are seen equally culpable.
Ironically David Cameron and Dominic Grieve are seen as men of honour in Liverpool now
Greatest injustice in the history of the U.K. Bit of a stretch.
97 people died, the rozzers covered it up for over 20 years, the fans were blamed, they were accused of stealing from the dead fans, urinating on them, assaulting the rescue services, which was a smear.
No one has been convicted and unlikely to be so.
No question bad things were done and said. But I also remember why hillsborough was a death trap. Football violence was rife. Hence fences and cages. Stadia were decrepit. The stadium should not have had a safety licence. None of them would in the modern world. I was an 18 year old footy fan when it happened and was at a game when news filtered through. The immediate impression was crowd trouble. Terribly wrong, but not hard to understand why people’s first thought was that. Herself fresh in the memories and all that.
So yes an injustice, now apologised for, for whatever that means. But the biggest injustice in the history of the U.K.? Not even close.
I don’t think any of our forecasters did all that well on the National, did they?
Deeply, deeply insulted.
I offered you SANTINI and FIDDLERONTHEHOOF and with any reasonable bookie you'll paid on fourth and fifth each way. SANTINI returned 33s having been 50s this morning with Paddy and others.
We welcome @BorisJohnson in Kyiv, the first G7 leader to arrive in Ukraine since the beginning of the large-scale war. We are strengthening our union of democracies. Be brave, like Boris. Be brave, like Ukraine. #BRAVEUKRAINE
Some cheers but also some boos in the crowd in response to the national anthem.
Still some sectarianism in Liverpool?
Anger at the greatest injustice and blood libel in the history of the UK.
The British state and the Conservatives are seen equally culpable.
Ironically David Cameron and Dominic Grieve are seen as men of honour in Liverpool now
Greatest injustice in the history of the U.K. Bit of a stretch.
97 people died, the rozzers covered it up for over 20 years, the fans were blamed, they were accused of stealing from the dead fans, urinating on them, assaulting the rescue services, which was a smear.
No one has been convicted and unlikely to be so.
That’s trial by jury for you.
It should be remembered, that fences were there for a reason. And Liverpool fans played their part in that reason.
If you don't mind me saying, that is a real twat comment under the circumstances.
The people that died were not football hooligans. It was error and cover up. How Duckinfield sleeps at night is beyond me
The cover up was unforgivable really, but sadly par for the course at the time. Why did it take so long? Football then was not as it (mostly) is now. Shit grounds, colossal fan violence, a game held in contempt by a lot in power. Times have changed and so has football. All seater, safe stadia. Higher prices, keeping some of the scum out. A more family game with more women and girls attending.
But Duckenfield was a victim too. Should not have been in charge, out of his depth with an unsafe ground, that became a death trap. I imagine he his haunted by his part in it.
Some cheers but also some boos in the crowd in response to the national anthem.
Still some sectarianism in Liverpool?
Anger at the greatest injustice and blood libel in the history of the UK.
The British state and the Conservatives are seen equally culpable.
Ironically David Cameron and Dominic Grieve are seen as men of honour in Liverpool now
Greatest injustice in the history of the U.K. Bit of a stretch.
97 people died, the rozzers covered it up for over 20 years, the fans were blamed, they were accused of stealing from the dead fans, urinating on them, assaulting the rescue services, which was a smear.
Some cheers but also some boos in the crowd in response to the national anthem.
Still some sectarianism in Liverpool?
Anger at the greatest injustice and blood libel in the history of the UK.
The British state and the Conservatives are seen equally culpable.
Ironically David Cameron and Dominic Grieve are seen as men of honour in Liverpool now
Greatest injustice in the history of the U.K. Bit of a stretch.
97 people died, the rozzers covered it up for over 20 years, the fans were blamed, they were accused of stealing from the dead fans, urinating on them, assaulting the rescue services, which was a smear.
No one has been convicted and unlikely to be so.
No question bad things were done and said. But I also remember why hillsborough was a death trap. Football violence was rife. Hence fences and cages. Stadia were decrepit. The stadium should not have had a safety licence. None of them would in the modern world. I was an 18 year old footy fan when it happened and was at a game when news filtered through. The immediate impression was crowd trouble. Terribly wrong, but not hard to understand why people’s first thought was that. Herself fresh in the memories and all that.
So yes an injustice, now apologised for, for whatever that means. But the biggest injustice in the history of the U.K.? Not even close.
It was a tragedy and was handled badly but Boris was right 20 years when he said Liverpudlians like to wallow in grief.
It's almost as boring now as the Madeline McCann saga.
We welcome @BorisJohnson in Kyiv, the first G7 leader to arrive in Ukraine since the beginning of the large-scale war. We are strengthening our union of democracies. Be brave, like Boris. Be brave, like Ukraine. #BRAVEUKRAINE
The Ukrainians are good at tailoring their messages.
You mean like Bruce Forsyth telling everyone you are my favourite couple.
They've shown they will chide as well, so not quite, but like peppering the parliamentary addresses with relevant cultural references I'm sure they know how to butter up those they wish to butter. That doesn't indicate a lack of sincerity though, just consciousness of how to express the sentiment.
Some cheers but also some boos in the crowd in response to the national anthem.
Still some sectarianism in Liverpool?
Anger at the greatest injustice and blood libel in the history of the UK.
The British state and the Conservatives are seen equally culpable.
Ironically David Cameron and Dominic Grieve are seen as men of honour in Liverpool now
Greatest injustice in the history of the U.K. Bit of a stretch.
97 people died, the rozzers covered it up for over 20 years, the fans were blamed, they were accused of stealing from the dead fans, urinating on them, assaulting the rescue services, which was a smear.
Some cheers but also some boos in the crowd in response to the national anthem.
Still some sectarianism in Liverpool?
Anger at the greatest injustice and blood libel in the history of the UK.
The British state and the Conservatives are seen equally culpable.
Ironically David Cameron and Dominic Grieve are seen as men of honour in Liverpool now
Greatest injustice in the history of the U.K. Bit of a stretch.
97 people died, the rozzers covered it up for over 20 years, the fans were blamed, they were accused of stealing from the dead fans, urinating on them, assaulting the rescue services, which was a smear.
No one has been convicted and unlikely to be so.
No question bad things were done and said. But I also remember why hillsborough was a death trap. Football violence was rife. Hence fences and cages. Stadia were decrepit. The stadium should not have had a safety licence. None of them would in the modern world. I was an 18 year old footy fan when it happened and was at a game when news filtered through. The immediate impression was crowd trouble. Terribly wrong, but not hard to understand why people’s first thought was that. Herself fresh in the memories and all that.
So yes an injustice, now apologised for, for whatever that means. But the biggest injustice in the history of the U.K.? Not even close.
It was a tragedy and was handled badly but Boris was right 20 years when he said Liverpudlians like to wallow in grief.
It's almost as boring now as the Madeline McCann saga.
I shied always from saying that about Johnson out of respect, but wis words had some truth in them. Nowhere does wallowing in grief like a scouser, especially if it nurses a grievance too.
Some cheers but also some boos in the crowd in response to the national anthem.
Still some sectarianism in Liverpool?
Anger at the greatest injustice and blood libel in the history of the UK.
The British state and the Conservatives are seen equally culpable.
Ironically David Cameron and Dominic Grieve are seen as men of honour in Liverpool now
Greatest injustice in the history of the U.K. Bit of a stretch.
97 people died, the rozzers covered it up for over 20 years, the fans were blamed, they were accused of stealing from the dead fans, urinating on them, assaulting the rescue services, which was a smear.
Some cheers but also some boos in the crowd in response to the national anthem.
Still some sectarianism in Liverpool?
Anger at the greatest injustice and blood libel in the history of the UK.
The British state and the Conservatives are seen equally culpable.
Ironically David Cameron and Dominic Grieve are seen as men of honour in Liverpool now
Greatest injustice in the history of the U.K. Bit of a stretch.
97 people died, the rozzers covered it up for over 20 years, the fans were blamed, they were accused of stealing from the dead fans, urinating on them, assaulting the rescue services, which was a smear.
No one has been convicted and unlikely to be so.
No question bad things were done and said. But I also remember why hillsborough was a death trap. Football violence was rife. Hence fences and cages. Stadia were decrepit. The stadium should not have had a safety licence. None of them would in the modern world. I was an 18 year old footy fan when it happened and was at a game when news filtered through. The immediate impression was crowd trouble. Terribly wrong, but not hard to understand why people’s first thought was that. Herself fresh in the memories and all that.
So yes an injustice, now apologised for, for whatever that means. But the biggest injustice in the history of the U.K.? Not even close.
This is what fuels the injustice.
41 of the original 96 could have survived with “swifter, more appropriate, better focused and properly equipped response had the potential to save more lives”.
I think I'll trust the people who read 450,000 documents on the tragedy.
The Match of the Day the evening of the tragedy accurately nailed what happened that day before the blaming of the fans narrative took hold.
Some cheers but also some boos in the crowd in response to the national anthem.
Still some sectarianism in Liverpool?
Anger at the greatest injustice and blood libel in the history of the UK.
The British state and the Conservatives are seen equally culpable.
Ironically David Cameron and Dominic Grieve are seen as men of honour in Liverpool now
Greatest injustice in the history of the U.K. Bit of a stretch.
97 people died, the rozzers covered it up for over 20 years, the fans were blamed, they were accused of stealing from the dead fans, urinating on them, assaulting the rescue services, which was a smear.
Some cheers but also some boos in the crowd in response to the national anthem.
Still some sectarianism in Liverpool?
Anger at the greatest injustice and blood libel in the history of the UK.
The British state and the Conservatives are seen equally culpable.
Ironically David Cameron and Dominic Grieve are seen as men of honour in Liverpool now
Greatest injustice in the history of the U.K. Bit of a stretch.
97 people died, the rozzers covered it up for over 20 years, the fans were blamed, they were accused of stealing from the dead fans, urinating on them, assaulting the rescue services, which was a smear.
No one has been convicted and unlikely to be so.
No question bad things were done and said. But I also remember why hillsborough was a death trap. Football violence was rife. Hence fences and cages. Stadia were decrepit. The stadium should not have had a safety licence. None of them would in the modern world. I was an 18 year old footy fan when it happened and was at a game when news filtered through. The immediate impression was crowd trouble. Terribly wrong, but not hard to understand why people’s first thought was that. Herself fresh in the memories and all that.
So yes an injustice, now apologised for, for whatever that means. But the biggest injustice in the history of the U.K.? Not even close.
This is what fuels the injustice.
41 of the original 96 could have survived with “swifter, more appropriate, better focused and properly equipped response had the potential to save more lives”.
I think I'll trust the people who read 450,000 documents on the tragedy.
The Match of the Day the evening of the tragedy accurately nailed what happened that day before the blaming of the fans narrative took hold.
And no one would have died if fences were not needed at football. That’s on the hooligans, and the vile culture around it.
It's a bit rough for Macron seeing as practically he's done more than any other leader in Europe for French consumer energy costs. But I guess electorates don't do counterfactual gratitude.
But this might be like Brexit.
British voters listened to all the sensible economic arguments against Brexit and said Yeah well fuck that, we want sovereignty. They may have been deluded, swindled, wrong and/or evil, but polls show sovereignty was THE most important argument (even more than migration)
Sometimes it’s not always “the economy, stupid”
France MAY be approaching one of these inflection points. I remain highly skeptical that Le Pen can win, but it’s gonna be close
I don't see why Trump and Brexit can win, along with Orban and Law & Justice and Le Pen not.
The worst thing Macron and the "Establishment" in France could do is attack her as a fascist and her voters accordingly.
What’s French for “Basket of Deplorables”?
Here is a photo of a French basket for deplorables if that helps.
More likely a crowd of deplorables would be observing its use
Sure there were lots of bad aspects. But they cut a king's head off, so it wasn't all wrong.
France post revolution was not a great place to be
Anywhere post-revolution isn't a great place to be.
Arguably the American Revolution, unless you were a loyalist Tory who had not managed to move to Canada
England post the Glorious Revolution (not Ireland) and Eastern Europe in the 90s (not Yugoslavia) were not too bad either.
Some cheers but also some boos in the crowd in response to the national anthem.
Still some sectarianism in Liverpool?
Anger at the greatest injustice and blood libel in the history of the UK.
The British state and the Conservatives are seen equally culpable.
Ironically David Cameron and Dominic Grieve are seen as men of honour in Liverpool now
Greatest injustice in the history of the U.K. Bit of a stretch.
97 people died, the rozzers covered it up for over 20 years, the fans were blamed, they were accused of stealing from the dead fans, urinating on them, assaulting the rescue services, which was a smear.
Some cheers but also some boos in the crowd in response to the national anthem.
Still some sectarianism in Liverpool?
Anger at the greatest injustice and blood libel in the history of the UK.
The British state and the Conservatives are seen equally culpable.
Ironically David Cameron and Dominic Grieve are seen as men of honour in Liverpool now
Greatest injustice in the history of the U.K. Bit of a stretch.
97 people died, the rozzers covered it up for over 20 years, the fans were blamed, they were accused of stealing from the dead fans, urinating on them, assaulting the rescue services, which was a smear.
No one has been convicted and unlikely to be so.
No question bad things were done and said. But I also remember why hillsborough was a death trap. Football violence was rife. Hence fences and cages. Stadia were decrepit. The stadium should not have had a safety licence. None of them would in the modern world. I was an 18 year old footy fan when it happened and was at a game when news filtered through. The immediate impression was crowd trouble. Terribly wrong, but not hard to understand why people’s first thought was that. Herself fresh in the memories and all that.
So yes an injustice, now apologised for, for whatever that means. But the biggest injustice in the history of the U.K.? Not even close.
This is what fuels the injustice.
41 of the original 96 could have survived with “swifter, more appropriate, better focused and properly equipped response had the potential to save more lives”.
I think I'll trust the people who read 450,000 documents on the tragedy.
The Match of the Day the evening of the tragedy accurately nailed what happened that day before the blaming of the fans narrative took hold.
Sadly improvements in safety culture often come from disasters.
Some cheers but also some boos in the crowd in response to the national anthem.
Still some sectarianism in Liverpool?
Anger at the greatest injustice and blood libel in the history of the UK.
The British state and the Conservatives are seen equally culpable.
Ironically David Cameron and Dominic Grieve are seen as men of honour in Liverpool now
Greatest injustice in the history of the U.K. Bit of a stretch.
97 people died, the rozzers covered it up for over 20 years, the fans were blamed, they were accused of stealing from the dead fans, urinating on them, assaulting the rescue services, which was a smear.
No one has been convicted and unlikely to be so.
That’s trial by jury for you.
It should be remembered, that fences were there for a reason. And Liverpool fans played their part in that reason.
If you don't mind me saying, that is a real twat comment under the circumstances.
The people that died were not football hooligans. It was error and cover up. How Duckinfield sleeps at night is beyond me
The cover up was unforgivable really, but sadly par for the course at the time. Why did it take so long? Football then was not as it (mostly) is now. Shit grounds, colossal fan violence, a game held in contempt by a lot in power. Times have changed and so has football. All seater, safe stadia. Higher prices, keeping some of the scum out. A more family game with more women and girls attending.
But Duckenfield was a victim too. Should not have been in charge, out of his depth with an unsafe ground, that became a death trap. I imagine he his haunted by his part in it.
Duckinfield was subsequently promoted. I can't speak on his behalf but his demeanor during the court cases didn't give me the impression of a man dogged by remorse.
Some cheers but also some boos in the crowd in response to the national anthem.
Still some sectarianism in Liverpool?
Anger at the greatest injustice and blood libel in the history of the UK.
The British state and the Conservatives are seen equally culpable.
Ironically David Cameron and Dominic Grieve are seen as men of honour in Liverpool now
Greatest injustice in the history of the U.K. Bit of a stretch.
97 people died, the rozzers covered it up for over 20 years, the fans were blamed, they were accused of stealing from the dead fans, urinating on them, assaulting the rescue services, which was a smear.
Some cheers but also some boos in the crowd in response to the national anthem.
Still some sectarianism in Liverpool?
Anger at the greatest injustice and blood libel in the history of the UK.
The British state and the Conservatives are seen equally culpable.
Ironically David Cameron and Dominic Grieve are seen as men of honour in Liverpool now
Greatest injustice in the history of the U.K. Bit of a stretch.
97 people died, the rozzers covered it up for over 20 years, the fans were blamed, they were accused of stealing from the dead fans, urinating on them, assaulting the rescue services, which was a smear.
No one has been convicted and unlikely to be so.
No question bad things were done and said. But I also remember why hillsborough was a death trap. Football violence was rife. Hence fences and cages. Stadia were decrepit. The stadium should not have had a safety licence. None of them would in the modern world. I was an 18 year old footy fan when it happened and was at a game when news filtered through. The immediate impression was crowd trouble. Terribly wrong, but not hard to understand why people’s first thought was that. Herself fresh in the memories and all that.
So yes an injustice, now apologised for, for whatever that means. But the biggest injustice in the history of the U.K.? Not even close.
It was a tragedy and was handled badly but Boris was right 20 years when he said Liverpudlians like to wallow in grief.
It's almost as boring now as the Madeline McCann saga.
The Irish famine (1 million dead) was a somewhat greater injustice than Hillsborough (96 dead)
It’s this absurd hyperbolic self pitying narcissism that makes people dislike Liverpool and Liverpudlians
And for the record: Hillsborough was, of course, a horrible, shameful disgrace.
Disasters are multi layered. The police on the day did not set out to kill 97 people. Far too many things went wrong, and there was much blame. Those who covered up and changed witness statements should have been brought to book. But many people contributed to what happened, and it certainly wasn’t just the police at fault.
Some cheers but also some boos in the crowd in response to the national anthem.
Still some sectarianism in Liverpool?
Anger at the greatest injustice and blood libel in the history of the UK.
The British state and the Conservatives are seen equally culpable.
Ironically David Cameron and Dominic Grieve are seen as men of honour in Liverpool now
Greatest injustice in the history of the U.K. Bit of a stretch.
97 people died, the rozzers covered it up for over 20 years, the fans were blamed, they were accused of stealing from the dead fans, urinating on them, assaulting the rescue services, which was a smear.
Some cheers but also some boos in the crowd in response to the national anthem.
Still some sectarianism in Liverpool?
Anger at the greatest injustice and blood libel in the history of the UK.
The British state and the Conservatives are seen equally culpable.
Ironically David Cameron and Dominic Grieve are seen as men of honour in Liverpool now
Greatest injustice in the history of the U.K. Bit of a stretch.
97 people died, the rozzers covered it up for over 20 years, the fans were blamed, they were accused of stealing from the dead fans, urinating on them, assaulting the rescue services, which was a smear.
No one has been convicted and unlikely to be so.
No question bad things were done and said. But I also remember why hillsborough was a death trap. Football violence was rife. Hence fences and cages. Stadia were decrepit. The stadium should not have had a safety licence. None of them would in the modern world. I was an 18 year old footy fan when it happened and was at a game when news filtered through. The immediate impression was crowd trouble. Terribly wrong, but not hard to understand why people’s first thought was that. Herself fresh in the memories and all that.
So yes an injustice, now apologised for, for whatever that means. But the biggest injustice in the history of the U.K.? Not even close.
This is what fuels the injustice.
41 of the original 96 could have survived with “swifter, more appropriate, better focused and properly equipped response had the potential to save more lives”.
I think I'll trust the people who read 450,000 documents on the tragedy.
The Match of the Day the evening of the tragedy accurately nailed what happened that day before the blaming of the fans narrative took hold.
Sadly improvements in safety culture often come from disasters.
It’s always been the case that regulations are written in blood.
Look at just how many few planes and trains crash these days, which is a direct result of independent investigation of all incidents and accidents, and a safety culture that seeks to learn from mistakes so that history doesn’t repeat itself.
Also see how few people are now killed on farms and building sites, figures for which were horrendous within living memory.
I don’t think any of our forecasters did all that well on the National, did they?
Deeply, deeply insulted.
I offered you SANTINI and FIDDLERONTHEHOOF and with any reasonable bookie you'll paid on fourth and fifth each way. SANTINI returned 33s having been 50s this morning with Paddy and others.
And the winner aged 7 has proved it all holding off the challenge at the end of that distance and those fences. More to come from this GN winner.
Yes considering it only jumped fences first time in October as well, pretty impressive.
I think one of the lessons of Hillsborough that gets overlooked is quite how upsetting it is to be gaslit by the establishment. The police and papers colluded to shift blame onto the victims, and that is the kind of thing that people tend to carry with them. If you want to call it nursing a grievance, so be it, but not forgiving and not forgetting in those circumstance is, I imagine, a very human reaction.
But what do I know, I've not had to go through that kind of thing.
Yes, that’s a very good point. I think the poor state of football culture was key to this. The police, and governments saw football fans as scum, and as trouble to be dealt with. They had reason for this, the violence of the 70s and 80s was horrific. So it was natural to deflect blame onto the scum. And totally wrong.
The Irish famine (1 million dead) was a somewhat greater injustice than Hillsborough (96 dead)
It’s this absurd hyperbolic self pitying narcissism that makes people dislike Liverpool and Liverpudlians
And for the record: Hillsborough was, of course, a horrible, shameful disgrace.
Disasters are multi layered. The police on the day did not set out to kill 97 people. Far too many things went wrong, and there was much blame. Those who covered up and changed witness statements should have been brought to book. But many people contributed to what happened, and it certainly wasn’t just the police at fault.
They killed themselves as a crowd. The police definitely didn't kill them. However there was great fault in the policing, and the police have some responsibility for the resulting deaths.
Some cheers but also some boos in the crowd in response to the national anthem.
Still some sectarianism in Liverpool?
Anger at the greatest injustice and blood libel in the history of the UK.
...
A greater injustice than the slave trade? A greater libel than the absurd racialism that justified it? I'm not a fan of dragging that part of our history into every argument, but I really can't see Hillsborough as a bigger wrong than that.
(Could also mention e.g. the persecution of Catholics in the 16th-19th centuries, or of non-Catholics until the Reformation).
The Irish famine (1 million dead) was a somewhat greater injustice than Hillsborough (96 dead)
It’s this absurd hyperbolic self pitying narcissism that makes people dislike Liverpool and Liverpudlians
And for the record: Hillsborough was, of course, a horrible, shameful disgrace.
Disasters are multi layered. The police on the day did not set out to kill 97 people. Far too many things went wrong, and there was much blame. Those who covered up and changed witness statements should have been brought to book. But many people contributed to what happened, and it certainly wasn’t just the police at fault.
They killed themselves as a crowd. The police definitely didn't kill them. However there was great fault in the policing, and the police have some responsibility for the resulting deaths.
Yes the police bore some responsibility. An inexperienced commander and a death trap stadium combined to kill 97 people. You can argue long and hard about where the balance of blame lies. For me it’s the cages that shouldn’t have been needed in a civilised world. And the police actions after the event were dreadful.
Some cheers but also some boos in the crowd in response to the national anthem.
Still some sectarianism in Liverpool?
Anger at the greatest injustice and blood libel in the history of the UK.
The British state and the Conservatives are seen equally culpable.
Ironically David Cameron and Dominic Grieve are seen as men of honour in Liverpool now
Greatest injustice in the history of the U.K. Bit of a stretch.
97 people died, the rozzers covered it up for over 20 years, the fans were blamed, they were accused of stealing from the dead fans, urinating on them, assaulting the rescue services, which was a smear.
Some cheers but also some boos in the crowd in response to the national anthem.
Still some sectarianism in Liverpool?
Anger at the greatest injustice and blood libel in the history of the UK.
The British state and the Conservatives are seen equally culpable.
Ironically David Cameron and Dominic Grieve are seen as men of honour in Liverpool now
Greatest injustice in the history of the U.K. Bit of a stretch.
97 people died, the rozzers covered it up for over 20 years, the fans were blamed, they were accused of stealing from the dead fans, urinating on them, assaulting the rescue services, which was a smear.
No one has been convicted and unlikely to be so.
No question bad things were done and said. But I also remember why hillsborough was a death trap. Football violence was rife. Hence fences and cages. Stadia were decrepit. The stadium should not have had a safety licence. None of them would in the modern world. I was an 18 year old footy fan when it happened and was at a game when news filtered through. The immediate impression was crowd trouble. Terribly wrong, but not hard to understand why people’s first thought was that. Herself fresh in the memories and all that.
So yes an injustice, now apologised for, for whatever that means. But the biggest injustice in the history of the U.K.? Not even close.
This is what fuels the injustice.
41 of the original 96 could have survived with “swifter, more appropriate, better focused and properly equipped response had the potential to save more lives”.
I think I'll trust the people who read 450,000 documents on the tragedy.
The Match of the Day the evening of the tragedy accurately nailed what happened that day before the blaming of the fans narrative took hold.
There were two sets of fans there that day. The Forest fans didn't have deaths amidst their number, for whatever reason. But they still had to watch as tens of dead fans were laid out on the pitch.
Blameless, traumatised - and never given a moment's thought.
Some cheers but also some boos in the crowd in response to the national anthem.
Still some sectarianism in Liverpool?
Anger at the greatest injustice and blood libel in the history of the UK.
The British state and the Conservatives are seen equally culpable.
Ironically David Cameron and Dominic Grieve are seen as men of honour in Liverpool now
Greatest injustice in the history of the U.K. Bit of a stretch.
97 people died, the rozzers covered it up for over 20 years, the fans were blamed, they were accused of stealing from the dead fans, urinating on them, assaulting the rescue services, which was a smear.
Some cheers but also some boos in the crowd in response to the national anthem.
Still some sectarianism in Liverpool?
Anger at the greatest injustice and blood libel in the history of the UK.
The British state and the Conservatives are seen equally culpable.
Ironically David Cameron and Dominic Grieve are seen as men of honour in Liverpool now
Greatest injustice in the history of the U.K. Bit of a stretch.
97 people died, the rozzers covered it up for over 20 years, the fans were blamed, they were accused of stealing from the dead fans, urinating on them, assaulting the rescue services, which was a smear.
No one has been convicted and unlikely to be so.
No question bad things were done and said. But I also remember why hillsborough was a death trap. Football violence was rife. Hence fences and cages. Stadia were decrepit. The stadium should not have had a safety licence. None of them would in the modern world. I was an 18 year old footy fan when it happened and was at a game when news filtered through. The immediate impression was crowd trouble. Terribly wrong, but not hard to understand why people’s first thought was that. Herself fresh in the memories and all that.
So yes an injustice, now apologised for, for whatever that means. But the biggest injustice in the history of the U.K.? Not even close.
It was a tragedy and was handled badly but Boris was right 20 years when he said Liverpudlians like to wallow in grief.
It's almost as boring now as the Madeline McCann saga.
What a sad reflection on you.
Not really. It's what everything thinks but doesn't say.
It's a tragedy for the individuals concerned but endless going on about it is boring for everyone else.
It's the same when someone is bereaved and can't talk about anything else for years afterwards - colleagues end up crossing the street to avoid them.
Some cheers but also some boos in the crowd in response to the national anthem.
Still some sectarianism in Liverpool?
Anger at the greatest injustice and blood libel in the history of the UK.
The British state and the Conservatives are seen equally culpable.
Ironically David Cameron and Dominic Grieve are seen as men of honour in Liverpool now
Greatest injustice in the history of the U.K. Bit of a stretch.
97 people died, the rozzers covered it up for over 20 years, the fans were blamed, they were accused of stealing from the dead fans, urinating on them, assaulting the rescue services, which was a smear.
Some cheers but also some boos in the crowd in response to the national anthem.
Still some sectarianism in Liverpool?
Anger at the greatest injustice and blood libel in the history of the UK.
The British state and the Conservatives are seen equally culpable.
Ironically David Cameron and Dominic Grieve are seen as men of honour in Liverpool now
Greatest injustice in the history of the U.K. Bit of a stretch.
97 people died, the rozzers covered it up for over 20 years, the fans were blamed, they were accused of stealing from the dead fans, urinating on them, assaulting the rescue services, which was a smear.
No one has been convicted and unlikely to be so.
No question bad things were done and said. But I also remember why hillsborough was a death trap. Football violence was rife. Hence fences and cages. Stadia were decrepit. The stadium should not have had a safety licence. None of them would in the modern world. I was an 18 year old footy fan when it happened and was at a game when news filtered through. The immediate impression was crowd trouble. Terribly wrong, but not hard to understand why people’s first thought was that. Herself fresh in the memories and all that.
So yes an injustice, now apologised for, for whatever that means. But the biggest injustice in the history of the U.K.? Not even close.
This is what fuels the injustice.
41 of the original 96 could have survived with “swifter, more appropriate, better focused and properly equipped response had the potential to save more lives”.
I think I'll trust the people who read 450,000 documents on the tragedy.
The Match of the Day the evening of the tragedy accurately nailed what happened that day before the blaming of the fans narrative took hold.
But, what more is to be done? Prosecutions? And if that doesn't do it, then what?
It was over 30 years ago. My view is that Liverpool would then move onto something else to be angry about instead.
Some cheers but also some boos in the crowd in response to the national anthem.
Still some sectarianism in Liverpool?
Anger at the greatest injustice and blood libel in the history of the UK.
The British state and the Conservatives are seen equally culpable.
Ironically David Cameron and Dominic Grieve are seen as men of honour in Liverpool now
Greatest injustice in the history of the U.K. Bit of a stretch.
97 people died, the rozzers covered it up for over 20 years, the fans were blamed, they were accused of stealing from the dead fans, urinating on them, assaulting the rescue services, which was a smear.
Some cheers but also some boos in the crowd in response to the national anthem.
Still some sectarianism in Liverpool?
Anger at the greatest injustice and blood libel in the history of the UK.
The British state and the Conservatives are seen equally culpable.
Ironically David Cameron and Dominic Grieve are seen as men of honour in Liverpool now
Greatest injustice in the history of the U.K. Bit of a stretch.
97 people died, the rozzers covered it up for over 20 years, the fans were blamed, they were accused of stealing from the dead fans, urinating on them, assaulting the rescue services, which was a smear.
No one has been convicted and unlikely to be so.
No question bad things were done and said. But I also remember why hillsborough was a death trap. Football violence was rife. Hence fences and cages. Stadia were decrepit. The stadium should not have had a safety licence. None of them would in the modern world. I was an 18 year old footy fan when it happened and was at a game when news filtered through. The immediate impression was crowd trouble. Terribly wrong, but not hard to understand why people’s first thought was that. Herself fresh in the memories and all that.
So yes an injustice, now apologised for, for whatever that means. But the biggest injustice in the history of the U.K.? Not even close.
It was a tragedy and was handled badly but Boris was right 20 years when he said Liverpudlians like to wallow in grief.
It's almost as boring now as the Madeline McCann saga.
I shied always from saying that about Johnson out of respect, but wis words had some truth in them. Nowhere does wallowing in grief like a scouser, especially if it nurses a grievance too.
You and Casino have just reminded me why I so dislike Boris Johnson and his brand of heartless Conservatism.
Some cheers but also some boos in the crowd in response to the national anthem.
Still some sectarianism in Liverpool?
Anger at the greatest injustice and blood libel in the history of the UK.
The British state and the Conservatives are seen equally culpable.
Ironically David Cameron and Dominic Grieve are seen as men of honour in Liverpool now
Greatest injustice in the history of the U.K. Bit of a stretch.
97 people died, the rozzers covered it up for over 20 years, the fans were blamed, they were accused of stealing from the dead fans, urinating on them, assaulting the rescue services, which was a smear.
Some cheers but also some boos in the crowd in response to the national anthem.
Still some sectarianism in Liverpool?
Anger at the greatest injustice and blood libel in the history of the UK.
The British state and the Conservatives are seen equally culpable.
Ironically David Cameron and Dominic Grieve are seen as men of honour in Liverpool now
Greatest injustice in the history of the U.K. Bit of a stretch.
97 people died, the rozzers covered it up for over 20 years, the fans were blamed, they were accused of stealing from the dead fans, urinating on them, assaulting the rescue services, which was a smear.
No one has been convicted and unlikely to be so.
No question bad things were done and said. But I also remember why hillsborough was a death trap. Football violence was rife. Hence fences and cages. Stadia were decrepit. The stadium should not have had a safety licence. None of them would in the modern world. I was an 18 year old footy fan when it happened and was at a game when news filtered through. The immediate impression was crowd trouble. Terribly wrong, but not hard to understand why people’s first thought was that. Herself fresh in the memories and all that.
So yes an injustice, now apologised for, for whatever that means. But the biggest injustice in the history of the U.K.? Not even close.
This is what fuels the injustice.
41 of the original 96 could have survived with “swifter, more appropriate, better focused and properly equipped response had the potential to save more lives”.
I think I'll trust the people who read 450,000 documents on the tragedy.
The Match of the Day the evening of the tragedy accurately nailed what happened that day before the blaming of the fans narrative took hold.
Sadly improvements in safety culture often come from disasters.
It’s always been the case that regulations are written in blood.
Look at just how many few planes and trains crash these days, which is a direct result of independent investigation of all incidents and accidents, and a safety culture that seeks to learn from mistakes so that history doesn’t repeat itself.
Also see how few people are now killed on farms and building sites, figures for which were horrendous within living memory.
In a way, that was the worst aspect of the 737 Max disaster. Not that engineering, business and regulatory mistakes led to a fatal crash; that the 'investigation' into that crash was so lacklustre that a second crash with the same root cause occurred in five months. Despite the FAA having calculated well before the second crash that the fault could cause 15 crashes in 30 years...
The investigation and regulatory processes did not work. And that's unforgivable in the modern age.
I think one of the lessons of Hillsborough that gets overlooked is quite how upsetting it is to be gaslit by the establishment. The police and papers colluded to shift blame onto the victims, and that is the kind of thing that people tend to carry with them. If you want to call it nursing a grievance, so be it, but not forgiving and not forgetting in those circumstance is, I imagine, a very human reaction.
But what do I know, I've not had to go through that kind of thing.
Yes, that’s a very good point. I think the poor state of football culture was key to this. The police, and governments saw football fans as scum, and as trouble to be dealt with. They had reason for this, the violence of the 70s and 80s was horrific. So it was natural to deflect blame onto the scum. And totally wrong.
Yes, we forget just how bad the football was in that decade. Nine times out of ten, it was rowdy fans taking up a disproportionate amount of police time, and it was easy to keep blaming the fans, even on the occasion when there was plenty of other blame to go around.
Some cheers but also some boos in the crowd in response to the national anthem.
Still some sectarianism in Liverpool?
Anger at the greatest injustice and blood libel in the history of the UK.
The British state and the Conservatives are seen equally culpable.
Ironically David Cameron and Dominic Grieve are seen as men of honour in Liverpool now
Greatest injustice in the history of the U.K. Bit of a stretch.
97 people died, the rozzers covered it up for over 20 years, the fans were blamed, they were accused of stealing from the dead fans, urinating on them, assaulting the rescue services, which was a smear.
Some cheers but also some boos in the crowd in response to the national anthem.
Still some sectarianism in Liverpool?
Anger at the greatest injustice and blood libel in the history of the UK.
The British state and the Conservatives are seen equally culpable.
Ironically David Cameron and Dominic Grieve are seen as men of honour in Liverpool now
Greatest injustice in the history of the U.K. Bit of a stretch.
97 people died, the rozzers covered it up for over 20 years, the fans were blamed, they were accused of stealing from the dead fans, urinating on them, assaulting the rescue services, which was a smear.
No one has been convicted and unlikely to be so.
No question bad things were done and said. But I also remember why hillsborough was a death trap. Football violence was rife. Hence fences and cages. Stadia were decrepit. The stadium should not have had a safety licence. None of them would in the modern world. I was an 18 year old footy fan when it happened and was at a game when news filtered through. The immediate impression was crowd trouble. Terribly wrong, but not hard to understand why people’s first thought was that. Herself fresh in the memories and all that.
So yes an injustice, now apologised for, for whatever that means. But the biggest injustice in the history of the U.K.? Not even close.
It was a tragedy and was handled badly but Boris was right 20 years when he said Liverpudlians like to wallow in grief.
It's almost as boring now as the Madeline McCann saga.
I shied always from saying that about Johnson out of respect, but wis words had some truth in them. Nowhere does wallowing in grief like a scouser, especially if it nurses a grievance too.
You and Casino have just reminded me why I so dislike Boris Johnson and his brand of heartless Conservatism.
That's your confirmation bias talking.
I can make an (in my view, accurate) uncomfortable point without being morally bankrupt. And I don't support Boris Johnson either.
The rest is your emotions rationalised themselves against a strawman.
The Irish famine (1 million dead) was a somewhat greater injustice than Hillsborough (96 dead)
It’s this absurd hyperbolic self pitying narcissism that makes people dislike Liverpool and Liverpudlians
And for the record: Hillsborough was, of course, a horrible, shameful disgrace.
Disasters are multi layered. The police on the day did not set out to kill 97 people. Far too many things went wrong, and there was much blame. Those who covered up and changed witness statements should have been brought to book. But many people contributed to what happened, and it certainly wasn’t just the police at fault.
They killed themselves as a crowd. The police definitely didn't kill them. However there was great fault in the policing, and the police have some responsibility for the resulting deaths.
Yes the police bore some responsibility. An inexperienced commander and a death trap stadium combined to kill 97 people. You can argue long and hard about where the balance of blame lies. For me it’s the cages that shouldn’t have been needed in a civilised world. And the police actions after the event were dreadful.
Agreed. You did though say "The police on the day did not set out to kill 97 people.", and that suggests that the police killed 97 people.
We welcome @BorisJohnson in Kyiv, the first G7 leader to arrive in Ukraine since the beginning of the large-scale war. We are strengthening our union of democracies. Be brave, like Boris. Be brave, like Ukraine. #BRAVEUKRAINE
I did point out that Sunak and his family were living at Downing Street during the pandemic, so they were in prime position to see and hear all the parties going on.
NEW: Rishi Sunak's wife and daughters have moved out of Downing Street at the end of the week in which I'm told he seriously considered resigning. My big read is up:
Unlike Oswestry, this is a seat where the Yellows should be clear favourites from the off if there is.
Now I've said that it will be the easiest Tory hold in a contested by-election since Haltemprice and Howden...
It's surely another Chesham and Amersham (albeit with a stronger Green base - in Frome). The 2019 vote shares are identical also the LD chances of gaining Somerset Council in May have surely shot up now.
Treasury sources are also clear that Sunak actively considered resigning last September when No 10 bounced him into a £12 billion pledge to fund social care reform. Several aides urged him to quit on that occasion and others wondered whether he should have done so when the Partygate scandal broke this spring. “We’ll never know now whether he missed his big chance,” one source said. “He’s now frustrated that he’s expected to just rustle up a few nuclear power stations from thin air.”
I bet the Guardian choked on its chia seeds as it wrote this
“Johnson is a popular figure in Kyiv after having delivered vital anti-tank weapons, the Swedish-made NLAW system, to the Ukrainian army. Zelenskiy has repeatedly praised the UK’s staunch support.”
I bet the Guardian choked on its chia seeds as it wrote this
“Johnson is a popular figure in Kyiv after having delivered vital anti-tank weapons, the Swedish-made NLAW system, to the Ukrainian army. Zelenskiy has repeatedly praised the UK’s staunch support.”
Some cheers but also some boos in the crowd in response to the national anthem.
Still some sectarianism in Liverpool?
Anger at the greatest injustice and blood libel in the history of the UK.
The British state and the Conservatives are seen equally culpable.
Ironically David Cameron and Dominic Grieve are seen as men of honour in Liverpool now
Greatest injustice in the history of the U.K. Bit of a stretch.
97 people died, the rozzers covered it up for over 20 years, the fans were blamed, they were accused of stealing from the dead fans, urinating on them, assaulting the rescue services, which was a smear.
Some cheers but also some boos in the crowd in response to the national anthem.
Still some sectarianism in Liverpool?
Anger at the greatest injustice and blood libel in the history of the UK.
The British state and the Conservatives are seen equally culpable.
Ironically David Cameron and Dominic Grieve are seen as men of honour in Liverpool now
Greatest injustice in the history of the U.K. Bit of a stretch.
97 people died, the rozzers covered it up for over 20 years, the fans were blamed, they were accused of stealing from the dead fans, urinating on them, assaulting the rescue services, which was a smear.
No one has been convicted and unlikely to be so.
No question bad things were done and said. But I also remember why hillsborough was a death trap. Football violence was rife. Hence fences and cages. Stadia were decrepit. The stadium should not have had a safety licence. None of them would in the modern world. I was an 18 year old footy fan when it happened and was at a game when news filtered through. The immediate impression was crowd trouble. Terribly wrong, but not hard to understand why people’s first thought was that. Herself fresh in the memories and all that.
So yes an injustice, now apologised for, for whatever that means. But the biggest injustice in the history of the U.K.? Not even close.
It was a tragedy and was handled badly but Boris was right 20 years when he said Liverpudlians like to wallow in grief.
It's almost as boring now as the Madeline McCann saga.
It was actually Simon Heffer who penned the offending article. Boris was clearly not particularly supportive of its sentiments because he immediately went to Liverpool to issue a grovelling apology.
I bet the Guardian choked on its chia seeds as it wrote this
“Johnson is a popular figure in Kyiv after having delivered vital anti-tank weapons, the Swedish-made NLAW system, to the Ukrainian army. Zelenskiy has repeatedly praised the UK’s staunch support.”
Some cheers but also some boos in the crowd in response to the national anthem.
Still some sectarianism in Liverpool?
Anger at the greatest injustice and blood libel in the history of the UK.
The British state and the Conservatives are seen equally culpable.
Ironically David Cameron and Dominic Grieve are seen as men of honour in Liverpool now
Greatest injustice in the history of the U.K. Bit of a stretch.
97 people died, the rozzers covered it up for over 20 years, the fans were blamed, they were accused of stealing from the dead fans, urinating on them, assaulting the rescue services, which was a smear.
Some cheers but also some boos in the crowd in response to the national anthem.
Still some sectarianism in Liverpool?
Anger at the greatest injustice and blood libel in the history of the UK.
The British state and the Conservatives are seen equally culpable.
Ironically David Cameron and Dominic Grieve are seen as men of honour in Liverpool now
Greatest injustice in the history of the U.K. Bit of a stretch.
97 people died, the rozzers covered it up for over 20 years, the fans were blamed, they were accused of stealing from the dead fans, urinating on them, assaulting the rescue services, which was a smear.
No one has been convicted and unlikely to be so.
No question bad things were done and said. But I also remember why hillsborough was a death trap. Football violence was rife. Hence fences and cages. Stadia were decrepit. The stadium should not have had a safety licence. None of them would in the modern world. I was an 18 year old footy fan when it happened and was at a game when news filtered through. The immediate impression was crowd trouble. Terribly wrong, but not hard to understand why people’s first thought was that. Herself fresh in the memories and all that.
So yes an injustice, now apologised for, for whatever that means. But the biggest injustice in the history of the U.K.? Not even close.
It was a tragedy and was handled badly but Boris was right 20 years when he said Liverpudlians like to wallow in grief.
It's almost as boring now as the Madeline McCann saga.
It was actually Simon Heffer who penned the offending article. Boris was clearly not particularly supportive of its sentiments because he immediately went to Liverpool to issue a grovelling apology.
I think Boris was supportive but yes you're right about the grovelling apology.
One of the few times I had respect for the man because at least he took responsibility and faced the music.
The Irish famine (1 million dead) was a somewhat greater injustice than Hillsborough (96 dead)
It’s this absurd hyperbolic self pitying narcissism that makes people dislike Liverpool and Liverpudlians
And for the record: Hillsborough was, of course, a horrible, shameful disgrace.
Disasters are multi layered. The police on the day did not set out to kill 97 people. Far too many things went wrong, and there was much blame. Those who covered up and changed witness statements should have been brought to book. But many people contributed to what happened, and it certainly wasn’t just the police at fault.
They killed themselves as a crowd. The police definitely didn't kill them. However there was great fault in the policing, and the police have some responsibility for the resulting deaths.
Yes the police bore some responsibility. An inexperienced commander and a death trap stadium combined to kill 97 people. You can argue long and hard about where the balance of blame lies. For me it’s the cages that shouldn’t have been needed in a civilised world. And the police actions after the event were dreadful.
Agreed. You did though say "The police on the day did not set out to kill 97 people.", and that suggests that the police killed 97 people.
The Irish famine (1 million dead) was a somewhat greater injustice than Hillsborough (96 dead)
It’s this absurd hyperbolic self pitying narcissism that makes people dislike Liverpool and Liverpudlians
And for the record: Hillsborough was, of course, a horrible, shameful disgrace.
Disasters are multi layered. The police on the day did not set out to kill 97 people. Far too many things went wrong, and there was much blame. Those who covered up and changed witness statements should have been brought to book. But many people contributed to what happened, and it certainly wasn’t just the police at fault.
They killed themselves as a crowd. The police definitely didn't kill them. However there was great fault in the policing, and the police have some responsibility for the resulting deaths.
Yes the police bore some responsibility. An inexperienced commander and a death trap stadium combined to kill 97 people. You can argue long and hard about where the balance of blame lies. For me it’s the cages that shouldn’t have been needed in a civilised world. And the police actions after the event were dreadful.
Agreed. You did though say "The police on the day did not set out to kill 97 people.", and that suggests that the police killed 97 people.
Not how I intended it to be read!
I'm sure not. You'll agree that the police didn't kill all those people?
Some cheers but also some boos in the crowd in response to the national anthem.
Still some sectarianism in Liverpool?
Anger at the greatest injustice and blood libel in the history of the UK.
The British state and the Conservatives are seen equally culpable.
Ironically David Cameron and Dominic Grieve are seen as men of honour in Liverpool now
Greatest injustice in the history of the U.K. Bit of a stretch.
I'm going to get shouted at for this, but when Liverpudlians talk about never forgiving over Hillsborough, I do think of the Heysel Stadium disaster, where Liverpool fans caused the deaths of 39 people. If they can be forgiven for the behaviour of their fans in that awful tragedy, how come they cannot find it in their hearts to forgive for what was a very human set of mistakes, and even the injustices that occurred afterwards?
Also, IMV the root cause of Hillsborough was not learning the mistakes of Heysel and other stadium disasters (e.g. Bradford, or the two/three Ibrox disasters). An accident as always going to happen, and the fact we've not had one since is down to the changes made.
The Irish famine (1 million dead) was a somewhat greater injustice than Hillsborough (96 dead)
It’s this absurd hyperbolic self pitying narcissism that makes people dislike Liverpool and Liverpudlians
And for the record: Hillsborough was, of course, a horrible, shameful disgrace.
Disasters are multi layered. The police on the day did not set out to kill 97 people. Far too many things went wrong, and there was much blame. Those who covered up and changed witness statements should have been brought to book. But many people contributed to what happened, and it certainly wasn’t just the police at fault.
They killed themselves as a crowd. The police definitely didn't kill them. However there was great fault in the policing, and the police have some responsibility for the resulting deaths.
Yes the police bore some responsibility. An inexperienced commander and a death trap stadium combined to kill 97 people. You can argue long and hard about where the balance of blame lies. For me it’s the cages that shouldn’t have been needed in a civilised world. And the police actions after the event were dreadful.
Agreed. You did though say "The police on the day did not set out to kill 97 people.", and that suggests that the police killed 97 people.
Not how I intended it to be read!
I'm sure not. You'll agree that the police didn't kill all those people?
Absolutely. They contributed to the deaths, but the main cause was the stadium itself.
Some cheers but also some boos in the crowd in response to the national anthem.
Still some sectarianism in Liverpool?
Anger at the greatest injustice and blood libel in the history of the UK.
The British state and the Conservatives are seen equally culpable.
Ironically David Cameron and Dominic Grieve are seen as men of honour in Liverpool now
Greatest injustice in the history of the U.K. Bit of a stretch.
97 people died, the rozzers covered it up for over 20 years, the fans were blamed, they were accused of stealing from the dead fans, urinating on them, assaulting the rescue services, which was a smear.
Some cheers but also some boos in the crowd in response to the national anthem.
Still some sectarianism in Liverpool?
Anger at the greatest injustice and blood libel in the history of the UK.
The British state and the Conservatives are seen equally culpable.
Ironically David Cameron and Dominic Grieve are seen as men of honour in Liverpool now
Greatest injustice in the history of the U.K. Bit of a stretch.
97 people died, the rozzers covered it up for over 20 years, the fans were blamed, they were accused of stealing from the dead fans, urinating on them, assaulting the rescue services, which was a smear.
No one has been convicted and unlikely to be so.
No question bad things were done and said. But I also remember why hillsborough was a death trap. Football violence was rife. Hence fences and cages. Stadia were decrepit. The stadium should not have had a safety licence. None of them would in the modern world. I was an 18 year old footy fan when it happened and was at a game when news filtered through. The immediate impression was crowd trouble. Terribly wrong, but not hard to understand why people’s first thought was that. Herself fresh in the memories and all that.
So yes an injustice, now apologised for, for whatever that means. But the biggest injustice in the history of the U.K.? Not even close.
This is what fuels the injustice.
41 of the original 96 could have survived with “swifter, more appropriate, better focused and properly equipped response had the potential to save more lives”.
I think I'll trust the people who read 450,000 documents on the tragedy.
The Match of the Day the evening of the tragedy accurately nailed what happened that day before the blaming of the fans narrative took hold.
That doesn’t make it a greater or lesser injustice. It’s simply a poor operational response compounding a tragedy
Some cheers but also some boos in the crowd in response to the national anthem.
Still some sectarianism in Liverpool?
Anger at the greatest injustice and blood libel in the history of the UK.
The British state and the Conservatives are seen equally culpable.
Ironically David Cameron and Dominic Grieve are seen as men of honour in Liverpool now
Greatest injustice in the history of the U.K. Bit of a stretch.
97 people died, the rozzers covered it up for over 20 years, the fans were blamed, they were accused of stealing from the dead fans, urinating on them, assaulting the rescue services, which was a smear.
Some cheers but also some boos in the crowd in response to the national anthem.
Still some sectarianism in Liverpool?
Anger at the greatest injustice and blood libel in the history of the UK.
The British state and the Conservatives are seen equally culpable.
Ironically David Cameron and Dominic Grieve are seen as men of honour in Liverpool now
Greatest injustice in the history of the U.K. Bit of a stretch.
97 people died, the rozzers covered it up for over 20 years, the fans were blamed, they were accused of stealing from the dead fans, urinating on them, assaulting the rescue services, which was a smear.
No one has been convicted and unlikely to be so.
No question bad things were done and said. But I also remember why hillsborough was a death trap. Football violence was rife. Hence fences and cages. Stadia were decrepit. The stadium should not have had a safety licence. None of them would in the modern world. I was an 18 year old footy fan when it happened and was at a game when news filtered through. The immediate impression was crowd trouble. Terribly wrong, but not hard to understand why people’s first thought was that. Herself fresh in the memories and all that.
So yes an injustice, now apologised for, for whatever that means. But the biggest injustice in the history of the U.K.? Not even close.
It was a tragedy and was handled badly but Boris was right 20 years when he said Liverpudlians like to wallow in grief.
It's almost as boring now as the Madeline McCann saga.
I shied always from saying that about Johnson out of respect, but wis words had some truth in them. Nowhere does wallowing in grief like a scouser, especially if it nurses a grievance too.
You and Casino have just reminded me why I so dislike Boris Johnson and his brand of heartless Conservatism.
That's your confirmation bias talking.
I can make an (in my view, accurate) uncomfortable point without being morally bankrupt. And I don't support Boris Johnson either.
The rest is your emotions rationalised themselves against a strawman.
Strawman my arse!
You quoted Johnson's crass and thoughtless meanderings. You then stated that Johnson's analysis that people from a particular UK city are absorbed in self pity and can't let go of their grief from tragedy is correct.
Just saw that Tiger Woods is even after Saturday's round at Augusta National.
Which is pretty good, seeing as how Marty Smith on ESPN radio this AM observed that the weather had deteriorated seriously in just the two hours they's been on the air.
Cold weather NOT being good for TW's leg, back, you-name-it. Though reckon wind plays to his strengths, including disciplined control, situational awareness and iron will - on the golf course anyway.
Comments
I mean I've had relationships that haven't lasted as long as that VAR review, but it was the right decision.
http://harris-interactive.fr/wp-content/uploads/sites/6/2022/04/Rapport-Harris-Interactive-Toluna-V41-Intentions-de-vote-Presidentielle-2022-Challenges.pdf
No one has been convicted and unlikely to be so.
It should be remembered, that fences were there for a reason. And Liverpool fans played their part in that reason.
Plenty in contention crossing the Melling Road but that final change of pace from the second last eluded all bar the front two. Winner only a 7-y-o but not easy to fancy on his efforts this season, Second giving 12 lbs ran a blinder but he might be one of those destined to go close often and never win.
First two nicely ahead of two decent types in DELTA WORK and SANTINI. LONGHOUSE POET went very well for a long way - might be one for next year.
Yes, of course - it's a question of what people, all of us, want. That's democracy.
Eventually they stopped giving a number and just vaguely talked about made up allegations.
Was it exciting?
The people that died were not football hooligans. It was error and cover up. How Duckinfield sleeps at night is beyond me
Conservative MP Nigel Adams has confirmed he will step down at the next general election in 2024.
Mr Adams - who is also a minister without portfolio - was first elected as Selby and Ainsty's MP in 2010 and has defended the seat three times in the constituency.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-york-north-yorkshire-61051163
One of our guests was on Santini.
Despite all the talk of softening the race and attracting the class of eclair surf in, the fences are still brutes. Snow Leopard rightly pulled up if it isn’t working.
Let's have a think about how Liverpool for on in Europe that year
Betting PostF1: backed under 16.5 classified finishers at 1.83:
https://enormo-haddock.blogspot.com/2022/04/australia-pre-race-2022.html
Albon's disqualification means only 3 race DNFs required. First two races have seen three and six non-classified finishers.
Edited extra bit: and I'm off for the evening.
Putin is a fascist. An unusually pure example, in fact
Le Pen is an ethnocentric populist espousing statist economics
Reserve the big nasty words for those that truly deserve them
https://www.fia.com/sites/default/files/decision-document/2022 Australian Grand Prix - Offence - Car 23 - Fuel sample.pdf
I was an 18 year old footy fan when it happened and was at a game when news filtered through. The immediate impression was crowd trouble. Terribly wrong, but not hard to understand why people’s first thought was that. Herself fresh in the memories and all that.
So yes an injustice, now apologised for, for whatever that means. But the biggest injustice in the history of the U.K.? Not even close.
Maybe if it was chariot racing, but I fear that would be a bit too unsafe for the animals in this day and age.
Think we may dine out next weekend!!!
But Duckenfield was a victim too. Should not have been in charge, out of his depth with an unsafe ground, that became a death trap.
I imagine he his haunted by his part in it.
It's almost as boring now as the Madeline McCann saga.
41 of the original 96 could have survived with “swifter, more appropriate, better focused and properly equipped response had the potential to save more lives”.
I think I'll trust the people who read 450,000 documents on the tragedy.
The Match of the Day the evening of the tragedy accurately nailed what happened that day before the blaming of the fans narrative took hold.
It’s this absurd hyperbolic self pitying narcissism that makes people dislike Liverpool and Liverpudlians
And for the record: Hillsborough was, of course, a horrible, shameful disgrace.
David Warburton: disgraced Tory MP’s brazen lobbying for Russian who lent him £150,000
David Warburton has been suspended after sex and drugs claims. Documents show he used his status to back a businessman without declaring the loan
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/david-warburton-disgraced-tory-mps-brazen-lobbying-for-russian-who-lent-him-150-000-tz8v0q3p9
Look at just how many few planes and trains crash these days, which is a direct result of independent investigation of all incidents and accidents, and a safety culture that seeks to learn from mistakes so that history doesn’t repeat itself.
Also see how few people are now killed on farms and building sites, figures for which were horrendous within living memory.
(Could also mention e.g. the persecution of Catholics in the 16th-19th centuries, or of non-Catholics until the Reformation).
Blameless, traumatised - and never given a moment's thought.
Now I've said that it will be the easiest Tory hold in a contested by-election since Haltemprice and Howden...
It's a tragedy for the individuals concerned but endless going on about it is boring for everyone else.
It's the same when someone is bereaved and can't talk about anything else for years afterwards - colleagues end up crossing the street to avoid them.
It was over 30 years ago. My view is that Liverpool would then move onto something else to be angry about instead.
You disagree?
The investigation and regulatory processes did not work. And that's unforgivable in the modern age.
I can make an (in my view, accurate) uncomfortable point without being morally bankrupt. And I don't support Boris Johnson either.
The rest is your emotions rationalised themselves against a strawman.
With the dressing up opportunities it was just too good to miss.
NEW: Rishi Sunak's wife and daughters have moved out of Downing Street at the end of the week in which I'm told he seriously considered resigning. My big read is up:
https://twitter.com/ShippersUnbound/status/1512843585707773959
Treasury sources are also clear that Sunak actively considered resigning last September when No 10 bounced him into a £12 billion pledge to fund social care reform. Several aides urged him to quit on that occasion and others wondered whether he should have done so when the Partygate scandal broke this spring. “We’ll never know now whether he missed his big chance,” one source said. “He’s now frustrated that he’s expected to just rustle up a few nuclear power stations from thin air.”
“Johnson is a popular figure in Kyiv after having delivered vital anti-tank weapons, the Swedish-made NLAW system, to the Ukrainian army. Zelenskiy has repeatedly praised the UK’s staunch support.”
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2022/apr/09/boris-johnson-meets-volodymyr-zelenskiy-in-unannounced-visit-to-kyiv?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other
The NLAW is not “Swedish-made” it is Swedish-designed at most, and is manufactured almost completely in the UK
One of the few times I had respect for the man because at least he took responsibility and faced the music.
This thread has been ruled offside by VAR
Also, IMV the root cause of Hillsborough was not learning the mistakes of Heysel and other stadium disasters (e.g. Bradford, or the two/three Ibrox disasters). An accident as always going to happen, and the fact we've not had one since is down to the changes made.
Hurrah for Lord Justice Taylor!
You quoted Johnson's crass and thoughtless meanderings. You then stated that Johnson's analysis that people from a particular UK city are absorbed in self pity and can't let go of their grief from tragedy is correct.
Johnson's and by choice your stereotype is wrong.
Which is pretty good, seeing as how Marty Smith on ESPN radio this AM observed that the weather had deteriorated seriously in just the two hours they's been on the air.
Cold weather NOT being good for TW's leg, back, you-name-it. Though reckon wind plays to his strengths, including disciplined control, situational awareness and iron will - on the golf course anyway.