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Sunday’s French election is getting very tight – politicalbetting.com

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  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,916
    Roger said:

    HYUFD said:

    The Harris poll yesterday put Le Pen a clear second in the first round though.

    Macron 27.5%
    Le Pen 22%
    Melenchon 15.5%
    Pecresse 10%
    Zemmour 10%

    https://twitter.com/EuropeElects/status/1511036597570969602?s=20&t=UfR2mbyTWodwepxRFBV-PQ

    It is amazing how voters will come out of the woodwork to make sure Le Pen doesn't win. I wouldn't trust the run off polls. Even those who viscerally loathe Macron will vote for him in the second round if Le Pen is the opponent. I don't believe these second round polls can pick that up
    Some not all.

    Zemmour voters will overwhelmingly switch to Le Pen in the runoff. More Pecresse voters will vote for Le Pen in the runoff than Fillon voters did.

    Many Melenchon voters will stay home rather than vote for Macron and a few will even actually vote for Le Pen
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    Roger said:

    DavidL said:

    One of the oddities of the French system is that many of those standing for President are the usual suspects who have already been rejected by the electorate. In this country leaders of the serious parties tend to get 1 or a maximum of 2 goes before the party looks for a new look or voice. It's like the country is run by half a dozen Liberal Democratic parties.

    This makes it quite difficult for new candidates to come forward within the system and candidates often seem to come from new parties or groupings which must have very little in the way of data for canvassing etc. Macron did this spectacularly the last time but I really don't see the likes of Le Pen or Melenchon doing much but causing a block to the new. Zemmour is the new candidate with the new party this time but his brand must surely do no more than damage Le Pen.

    I am not a fan of Macron and he is absurdly hostile to the UK but I cannot see anyone that has any kind of a chance of beating him. I did get a bit of a laugh from a column in the Telegraph yesterday indicating that his great drive to relocate finance from London to Paris has so far resulted in the location of just over 7k jobs and Paris remained at 12 in the world as a financial centre whilst London was second to New York. It seemed to me typical of Macron, lots of bluster but very little practical result.

    Not likely to keep second spot for long thanks to Brexit. The writing is well and trully on the wall. None of the top 20 fell by as many rating points as London.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Global_Financial_Centres_Index

    At least London didn't slip in the rankings, unlike Paris (-1) - and given our next two nearest competitors are Hong Kong and Shanghai.....
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    More lovely memories of June Brown:

    'If it wasn't for her, I wouldn't have formed Stonewall.'

    Labour peer Lord Cashman remembers close friend June Brown following the Eastenders legend's death today.
    @IainDale


    https://twitter.com/LBC/status/1511053000772567047
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,916
    Roger said:

    DavidL said:

    One of the oddities of the French system is that many of those standing for President are the usual suspects who have already been rejected by the electorate. In this country leaders of the serious parties tend to get 1 or a maximum of 2 goes before the party looks for a new look or voice. It's like the country is run by half a dozen Liberal Democratic parties.

    This makes it quite difficult for new candidates to come forward within the system and candidates often seem to come from new parties or groupings which must have very little in the way of data for canvassing etc. Macron did this spectacularly the last time but I really don't see the likes of Le Pen or Melenchon doing much but causing a block to the new. Zemmour is the new candidate with the new party this time but his brand must surely do no more than damage Le Pen.

    I am not a fan of Macron and he is absurdly hostile to the UK but I cannot see anyone that has any kind of a chance of beating him. I did get a bit of a laugh from a column in the Telegraph yesterday indicating that his great drive to relocate finance from London to Paris has so far resulted in the location of just over 7k jobs and Paris remained at 12 in the world as a financial centre whilst London was second to New York. It seemed to me typical of Macron, lots of bluster but very little practical result.

    Not likely to keep second spot for long thanks to Brexit. The writing is well and trully on the wall. None of the top 20 fell by as many rating points as London.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Global_Financial_Centres_Index

    However Hong Kong is 3rd and the more Beijing regulates it and cracks down on its freedoms the less attractive it will be to investors.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,222
    Eabhal said:

    tlg86 said:

    Scott_xP said:

    NEW: Jeremy Hunt becomes the most senior Tory to criticise plans to privatise Channel 4. The former Culture Secretary: "I'm not in favour of it because as it stands Channel 4 provides competition to the BBC on public service broadcasting."
    https://twitter.com/KevinASchofield/status/1511232996468310017

    Competition on public service broadcasting...

    Erm...

    Does that mean we need a second NHS?
    Isn't this how the Israeli health care system works? And is generally quite good?
    Sort of. From Wiki:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Healthcare_in_Israel

    The Israeli healthcare system is based on the National Health Insurance Law of 1995, which mandates all citizens resident in the country to join one of four official health insurance organizations, known as Kupat Holim (קופת חולים - "Sick Funds") which are run as not-for-profit organizations and are prohibited by law from denying any Israeli resident membership. Israelis can increase their medical coverage and improve their options by purchasing private health insurance.
  • RogerRoger Posts: 19,975
    DavidL said:

    Roger said:

    DavidL said:

    One of the oddities of the French system is that many of those standing for President are the usual suspects who have already been rejected by the electorate. In this country leaders of the serious parties tend to get 1 or a maximum of 2 goes before the party looks for a new look or voice. It's like the country is run by half a dozen Liberal Democratic parties.

    This makes it quite difficult for new candidates to come forward within the system and candidates often seem to come from new parties or groupings which must have very little in the way of data for canvassing etc. Macron did this spectacularly the last time but I really don't see the likes of Le Pen or Melenchon doing much but causing a block to the new. Zemmour is the new candidate with the new party this time but his brand must surely do no more than damage Le Pen.

    I am not a fan of Macron and he is absurdly hostile to the UK but I cannot see anyone that has any kind of a chance of beating him. I did get a bit of a laugh from a column in the Telegraph yesterday indicating that his great drive to relocate finance from London to Paris has so far resulted in the location of just over 7k jobs and Paris remained at 12 in the world as a financial centre whilst London was second to New York. It seemed to me typical of Macron, lots of bluster but very little practical result.

    Not likely to keep second spot for long thanks to Brexit. The writing is well and trully on the wall. None of the top 20 fell by as many rating points as London.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Global_Financial_Centres_Index

    The loss of jobs in London has so far been less than 1% of what was forecast and indeed has not even offset the indiginous growth in difficult economic times.
    The Telegraph article was looking at figures from 2020 by the look of it. It's surprising how close the top six are to each other if you look at the 2022 ratings.
  • philiph said:

    Why privatise Channel 4? Just seems like ideological dogma to me

    Why not privatise channel 4?
    Can you answer that equally good question
    Because it’s working perfectly well as is and doesn’t cost us any any money? Why change it?

    We all know what will happen, it will end up being bought by Fox or somebody and killed.
    I wouldn't mind if @Foxy bought if of course, I meant a different Fox!!!
  • StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 8,466
    ping said:

    Why privatise Channel 4? Just seems like ideological dogma to me

    Privatising the BBC/Channel 4 is one of the few issues that I’ve completely changed my mind over, over the last few years.

    I used to be completely against privatisation, now I don’t see what the problem is. I’m in favour of a smart state, flexible about moving things in and out of private/public ownership.

    Generally - If there’s a market, genuine competition and space for innovation, it should be private.

    Essential service &/or a natural monopoly? Public.

    I’d bring water, energy and trains into public ownership - and privatise the BBC/Channel 4.
    Not convinced about public ownership - the problem is that high capex unsexy activities such as investing in the electricity grid will always lose out to schools’n’hospitals if they are run by government.

    But there should be a creative alternative model to finance the investment - perhaps owned by a mutual or public sector pension funds for example.
  • Channel 4 costs us nothing.

    Huge cost to the Tories though. Instead of a propaganda platform like GBeebies they have this woke hipster thing which undermines everything Dorries stands for
  • Channel 4 costs us nothing.

    Huge cost to the Tories though. Instead of a propaganda platform like GBeebies they have this woke hipster thing which undermines everything Dorries stands for
    This the true motivation IMHO, they've had a bee in their bonnet ever since they put that ice figure on TV when the Tories couldn't be bothered to turn up to a debate on climate change.

    Which they claim now they care about.
  • StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 8,466
    Taz said:

    Heathener said:

    Taz said:



    We are living in extremely dark times. I see no cause for optimism at all in this world

    I realise this can appear to annoy people, but this is precisely why I've stopped looking at the News after my morning catch-up. Even then I only take a cursory look now. Too much hatred, violence, disrespect, nastiness, anger etc.

    In my brief exchange I had with JJ this time yesterday I suggested that we can, to an extent, make our own reality. Or rather there are multiple realities. We can choose to live in a way that is happier and less stressed but it requires disengaging from a lot of modern particularly western life. At some points of my life I've lived in extremely remote locations, freed from the encumbrances of modern life. They were blissful times.

    I think JJ inferred that this was escapism but I find no greater Reality than when I'm in contemplative meditation embedded in Mother Nature.

    As I say, I accept that this is alternative but it works for me.

    Have a nice day :)
    @Leon called it doom scrolling.

    I also found out this weekend my father has six months left.

    Life’s crap.
    I’m sorry to hear that. There are no words - losing a parent is always a traumatic experience. Just try to spend as much time with him as you can - that’s the one thing you can’t get back later/
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,937

    It's not just Putin. When large groups of, presumably Russians, demonstrate in support of Russia's brutal war against Ukraine we know the rot in among Russians go far beyond Putin and his small inner circle.

    @HannaLiubakova · Apr 3
    An enormous car parade of cars with mostly Russian flags in Berlin, #Germany, today. Reportedly, the parade in support of Russia gathered 5000 cars.

    They can't complain about the media blackout in Germany. They have access to information and can see what Russians did in Bucha.


    https://twitter.com/andersostlund/status/1511228584538615813

    Needs everybody in Germany that gives a shit about Ukraine and the genocide being inflicted upon it by Russia to get out this weekend with a Ukrainian flag draped across their bonnet.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 49,137
    tlg86 said:

    Scott_xP said:

    NEW: Jeremy Hunt becomes the most senior Tory to criticise plans to privatise Channel 4. The former Culture Secretary: "I'm not in favour of it because as it stands Channel 4 provides competition to the BBC on public service broadcasting."
    https://twitter.com/KevinASchofield/status/1511232996468310017

    Competition on public service broadcasting...

    Erm...

    Does that mean we need a second NHS?
    Well that is why Trusts are set up that way, to compete with each other. So not a second NHS, but hundreds. Thousands if you include GPs.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 43,363
    edited April 2022

    philiph said:

    Why privatise Channel 4? Just seems like ideological dogma to me

    Why not privatise channel 4?
    Can you answer that equally good question
    Because it’s working perfectly well as is and doesn’t cost us any any money? Why change it?

    We all know what will happen, it will end up being bought by Fox or somebody and killed.
    I wouldn't mind if @Foxy bought if of course, I meant a different Fox!!!
    Slightly unfortunate wording re our Foxy - though your actual intent is clear!
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 49,137

    Foxy said:

    In jollier news, one of Fox jr2s girlfriends is a TikTok sensation, with 1.1 million followers at age 20. Anyone know what that means in income? This is her stream:

    https://vm.tiktok.com/ZMLQYNBY1/

    This site reckons she could earn ~$2,000 per post, but it also says that tiktok earnings are primarily via partnerships with brands, rather than passive earnings from ads, and the website likely has an interest in being optimistic about the potential for earnings.
    Interesting.

    Just curious. She does theatre make up, which is how they met. No longer an item though, Fox jr2 moves around.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,222
    Foxy said:

    tlg86 said:

    Scott_xP said:

    NEW: Jeremy Hunt becomes the most senior Tory to criticise plans to privatise Channel 4. The former Culture Secretary: "I'm not in favour of it because as it stands Channel 4 provides competition to the BBC on public service broadcasting."
    https://twitter.com/KevinASchofield/status/1511232996468310017

    Competition on public service broadcasting...

    Erm...

    Does that mean we need a second NHS?
    Well that is why Trusts are set up that way, to compete with each other. So not a second NHS, but hundreds. Thousands if you include GPs.
    Regarding GPs, I reckon if Labour promised to abolish them, they'd gain a lot of support.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 18,909
    tlg86 said:

    Guido made me chuckle this morning...

    https://order-order.com/2022/04/04/rishi-goes-ape-for-crypto/

    If you’re not already familiar the concept Guido doesn’t plan on explaining it here; keep an eye out for Guido’s own NFT coming soon…

    I keep on reading the Verge's explainer and I still don't think that I understand what NFTs are, and why people would pay real money for them. I think this might be a sign that I've reached that age where all new technology is "against nature", while when I was younger new technology was exciting and about the future.

    Or it could be that NFTs are an inexplicable fad, a psychosis born of lockdown.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 28,422
    edited April 2022
    tlg86 said:

    Scott_xP said:

    NEW: Jeremy Hunt becomes the most senior Tory to criticise plans to privatise Channel 4. The former Culture Secretary: "I'm not in favour of it because as it stands Channel 4 provides competition to the BBC on public service broadcasting."
    https://twitter.com/KevinASchofield/status/1511232996468310017

    Competition on public service broadcasting...

    Erm...

    Does that mean we need a second NHS?
    That might not be as daft an idea as it sounds, if you believe in competition. Israel has something like this iirc. Better than the internal market.

    ETA scooped by @Eabhal
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 72,212
    Chinese reporting of Bucha:
    https://twitter.com/DemesDavid/status/1510830400653783047

    Official channels silent on the killings - while posts on Chinese social media claim that it was part of a Ukrainian genocide perpetrated on Russian speaking Ukrainians.
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 17,684

    philiph said:

    Why privatise Channel 4? Just seems like ideological dogma to me

    Why not privatise channel 4?
    Can you answer that equally good question
    Because it’s working perfectly well as is and doesn’t cost us any any money? Why change it?

    We all know what will happen, it will end up being bought by Fox or somebody and killed.
    I wouldn't mind if @Foxy bought if of course, I meant a different Fox!!!
    He has talked about retirement -maybe a lurch into broadcast media awaits!
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 43,363

    tlg86 said:

    Guido made me chuckle this morning...

    https://order-order.com/2022/04/04/rishi-goes-ape-for-crypto/

    If you’re not already familiar the concept Guido doesn’t plan on explaining it here; keep an eye out for Guido’s own NFT coming soon…

    I keep on reading the Verge's explainer and I still don't think that I understand what NFTs are, and why people would pay real money for them. I think this might be a sign that I've reached that age where all new technology is "against nature", while when I was younger new technology was exciting and about the future.

    Or it could be that NFTs are an inexplicable fad, a psychosis born of lockdown.
    Me neither, if it is any consolation. I can only suppose they are like tulips - which also replicate. If not so quickly.
  • Taz said:

    Heathener said:

    Taz said:



    We are living in extremely dark times. I see no cause for optimism at all in this world

    I realise this can appear to annoy people, but this is precisely why I've stopped looking at the News after my morning catch-up. Even then I only take a cursory look now. Too much hatred, violence, disrespect, nastiness, anger etc.

    In my brief exchange I had with JJ this time yesterday I suggested that we can, to an extent, make our own reality. Or rather there are multiple realities. We can choose to live in a way that is happier and less stressed but it requires disengaging from a lot of modern particularly western life. At some points of my life I've lived in extremely remote locations, freed from the encumbrances of modern life. They were blissful times.

    I think JJ inferred that this was escapism but I find no greater Reality than when I'm in contemplative meditation embedded in Mother Nature.

    As I say, I accept that this is alternative but it works for me.

    Have a nice day :)
    @Leon called it doom scrolling.

    I also found out this weekend my father has six months left.

    Life’s crap.
    I’m sorry to hear that. There are no words - losing a parent is always a traumatic experience. Just try to spend as much time with him as you can - that’s the one thing you can’t get back later/
    Yeah sorry for @Taz - use the time you have as best you can.
  • StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 8,466

    Why privatise Channel 4? Just seems like ideological dogma to me

    Why should the state fund a TV channel out of taxation? If there is demand for the products it produces they can fund externally.
    Surely Channel 4 is funded from advertising?
    I hadn’t checked to be honest… 🤨

    But that just makes the case stronger… why does the government own a private business? That’s not an asset required for the delivery of state services
  • RogerRoger Posts: 19,975
    Foxy said:

    In jollier news, one of Fox jr2s girlfriends is a TikTok sensation, with 1.1 million followers at age 20. Anyone know what that means in income? This is her stream:

    https://vm.tiktok.com/ZMLQYNBY1/

    I don't know but It definitely sounds like it's worth ditching of the rest of his girlfriends!
  • StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 8,466

    Channel 4 costs us nothing.

    I’d rather redeploy the capital tied up in the business to build another school
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 36,100
    With both @Jeremy_Hunt and @TomTugendhat now coming out in opposition to privatisation of @Channel4, it's a reminder the PM has to take his party with him to any pass legislation. Q now is whether the numbers are there.
    https://twitter.com/paulwaugh/status/1511245649379049473

    They asked for ‘a debate’; 90% of submissions in that debate said it was a bad idea. But still they go ahead. Why do they want to make the UK’s great TV industry worse? Why? It makes no business, economic or even patriotic sense.


    https://www.theguardian.com/media/2022/apr/04/nadine-dorries-to-press-ahead-with-plan-to-privatise-channel-4
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 17,684

    Channel 4 costs us nothing.

    Huge cost to the Tories though. Instead of a propaganda platform like GBeebies they have this woke hipster thing which undermines everything Dorries stands for
    This the true motivation IMHO, they've had a bee in their bonnet ever since they put that ice figure on TV when the Tories couldn't be bothered to turn up to a debate on climate change.

    Which they claim now they care about.
    There's no doubt that C4 is rabidly anti-tory. Want a cheap cheer on the Last Leg, slag of the Tories. (This includes baroness Warsi, who you have to wonder is a sleeper agent, so much does she seem to hate her own party). And then there's Jon 'F*ck the Tories' Snow.

    Would a privatised channel be any different? I guess it depends who buys. GB news has not exactly captured the market in the Fox news style.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    Scott_xP said:

    With both @Jeremy_Hunt and @TomTugendhat now coming out in opposition to privatisation of @Channel4, it's a reminder the PM has to take his party with him to any pass legislation. Q now is whether the numbers are there.
    https://twitter.com/paulwaugh/status/1511245649379049473

    They asked for ‘a debate’; 90% of submissions in that debate said it was a bad idea. But still they go ahead. Why do they want to make the UK’s great TV industry worse? Why? It makes no business, economic or even patriotic sense.


    https://www.theguardian.com/media/2022/apr/04/nadine-dorries-to-press-ahead-with-plan-to-privatise-channel-4

    The sale of Channel 4 is politicians and civil servants thinking they know more about how to run a business than the people who run it. Very unconservative. Mrs Thatcher, who created it, never made that mistake.

    https://twitter.com/DamianGreen/status/1511060868724887561
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 17,684
    Foxy said:

    tlg86 said:

    Scott_xP said:

    NEW: Jeremy Hunt becomes the most senior Tory to criticise plans to privatise Channel 4. The former Culture Secretary: "I'm not in favour of it because as it stands Channel 4 provides competition to the BBC on public service broadcasting."
    https://twitter.com/KevinASchofield/status/1511232996468310017

    Competition on public service broadcasting...

    Erm...

    Does that mean we need a second NHS?
    Well that is why Trusts are set up that way, to compete with each other. So not a second NHS, but hundreds. Thousands if you include GPs.
    Yes the classic idea of letting the market improve things. Yet you don't really get a choice of GP do you? If your surgery is too busy because there are too few GP's and too many patients, you can't choose a different surgery (at least not in my mid sized market town, as there is only one.)
  • StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 8,466

    tlg86 said:

    Guido made me chuckle this morning...

    https://order-order.com/2022/04/04/rishi-goes-ape-for-crypto/

    If you’re not already familiar the concept Guido doesn’t plan on explaining it here; keep an eye out for Guido’s own NFT coming soon…

    I keep on reading the Verge's explainer and I still don't think that I understand what NFTs are, and why people would pay real money for them. I think this might be a sign that I've reached that age where all new technology is "against nature", while when I was younger new technology was exciting and about the future.

    Or it could be that NFTs are an inexplicable fad, a psychosis born of lockdown.
    Nah they are just tulips.
  • RogerRoger Posts: 19,975
    edited April 2022
    Eabhal said:

    Roger said:

    ping said:

    Why privatise Channel 4? Just seems like ideological dogma to me

    Privatising the BBC/Channel 4 is one of the few issues that I’ve completely changed my mind over, over the last few years.

    I used to be completely against privatisation, now I don’t see what the problem is. I’m in favour of a smart state, flexible about moving things in and out of private/public ownership.

    Generally - If there’s a market, genuine competition and space for innovation, it should be private.

    Essential service &/or a natural monopoly? Public.

    I’d bring water, energy and trains into public ownership - and privatise the BBC/Channel 4.
    Would you be happy for it to be bought by Richard Desmond and turned into Express TV?
    What would be wrong with that in principle? If it abides by the Ofcom regs then fair game.

    I was quite uneasy about the rush to ban RT though, so have a unusually strong tendency towards press freedom.

    It seems a waste of energy to privatise it but again, don't see a fundamental issue with it. The government takes on all the risk for an institution that doesn't have a fundamental role in our society - exactly the kind of thing we should try to avoid.
    Film on 4 and the 7 o'clock News. If they went we would be the poorer for it and for what? So that some Oligarch could get rich or worse-peddle his politics?
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,587

    This is an interesting tweet in an interesting short thread.

    "Jonathan Leader Maynard
    @jleadermaynard
    Note that the common assertion that abuses against civilians are ‘inevitable’ in war is totally false. States have been found to directly target civilians in roughly 1/5 to 1/3 of all wars. Atrocities are appalling but not inevitable. https://mitpress.universitypressscholarship.com/view/10.7551/mitpress/9780262014205.001.0001/upso-9780262014205-chapter-2 /11"


    https://twitter.com/jleadermaynard/status/1510911900674048004

    As Jeremy Bowen essentially put it war crimes occur with many armies during conflicts. But happening systemically as a matter of policy is on another level.
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 17,684

    tlg86 said:

    Guido made me chuckle this morning...

    https://order-order.com/2022/04/04/rishi-goes-ape-for-crypto/

    If you’re not already familiar the concept Guido doesn’t plan on explaining it here; keep an eye out for Guido’s own NFT coming soon…

    I keep on reading the Verge's explainer and I still don't think that I understand what NFTs are, and why people would pay real money for them. I think this might be a sign that I've reached that age where all new technology is "against nature", while when I was younger new technology was exciting and about the future.

    Or it could be that NFTs are an inexplicable fad, a psychosis born of lockdown.
    Nah they are just tulips.
    Important to remember that some people made a lot of money from Tulips. You just had to get in and out at the right time.

    Same for NFT's.

    In a sense you could look at most money as NFT in some ways. What really is a pound coin? Its not like in history where coinage actually contained gold/silver etc. And what is a note? And a BACS transfer?
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830

    Channel 4 costs us nothing.

    I’d rather redeploy the capital tied up in the business to build another school
    If we permit that sort of lazy fungibility every spending argument reduces to We could buy another intensive care ward for really sick kiddies instead of [other thing]. Let's examine [other thing] on its own merits shall we?

    I despise cameron for letting this argument be put over AV, and of course it led directly to 350m for the NHS.
  • nico679nico679 Posts: 6,277
    What exactly is the point of the Channel 4 privatization. This seems like a solution looking for a problem . Lucy Powell is right this is a vendetta against it for daring to criticize the government .
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 55,004
    Nigelb said:

    tlg86 said:

    Vox pop video:

    The Russian attitude to Ukraine.

    Something is seriously wrong in Russia.


    https://twitter.com/visegrad24/status/1511165207921504260

    I'm not saying Russian public opinion isn't fucked up but if you'd gone and interviewed a bunch of random British people during The Troubles or the Iraq war and picked out the maddest ones you could have put together quite an impressive selection of genocidal bigotry.
    Obviously this doesn't apply to Iraq (and, actually, I'm not sure you would have heard such views here during that), but at least some of that emotion during the troubles would have been understandable giving the murders committed in Britain by the IRA.

    What's more interesting/concerning, is the "it's all going really well" views of Russians. They really have no idea what's actually going on in Ukraine. Perhaps if they knew that (some of) their boys were getting their arses handed to them, then things might be different.

    Perhaps a few years of Russia not playing international football etc. might make the people wonder what exactly is going on.
    They - or at least it seems the majority - refuse to acknowledge the reality.
    There are too many stories of Ukrainians with Russian relatives, who when they call them are faced with hostile indifference and denial, to think that it's just ignorance.
    It’s a total brainwashing of large sections of the Russian public, that’s been going on for years.

    Russians (outside the young and educated groups with access to external media) genuinely think that Ukraine is populated by Russians and Nazis, and that Russia is currently helping get rid of the Nazis in the Donbass. They don’t understand that there’s a fully-fledged war going on all over Ukraine.

    Maybe attitudes will start to change as nearly 20,000 body bags come back to Russia, or maybe Putin can gloss over that too.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,587
    I just cant see it getting that tight in the end, Macron just seems the obvious sensible choice. Le Pen to build on last time? Sure.
  • eekeek Posts: 28,591

    Foxy said:

    tlg86 said:

    Scott_xP said:

    NEW: Jeremy Hunt becomes the most senior Tory to criticise plans to privatise Channel 4. The former Culture Secretary: "I'm not in favour of it because as it stands Channel 4 provides competition to the BBC on public service broadcasting."
    https://twitter.com/KevinASchofield/status/1511232996468310017

    Competition on public service broadcasting...

    Erm...

    Does that mean we need a second NHS?
    Well that is why Trusts are set up that way, to compete with each other. So not a second NHS, but hundreds. Thousands if you include GPs.
    Yes the classic idea of letting the market improve things. Yet you don't really get a choice of GP do you? If your surgery is too busy because there are too few GP's and too many patients, you can't choose a different surgery (at least not in my mid sized market town, as there is only one.)
    Even in larger towns because the commissioning trust will be owned by the GPs as a whole.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,222
    IshmaelZ said:

    Channel 4 costs us nothing.

    I’d rather redeploy the capital tied up in the business to build another school
    If we permit that sort of lazy fungibility every spending argument reduces to We could buy another intensive care ward for really sick kiddies instead of [other thing]. Let's examine [other thing] on its own merits shall we?

    I despise cameron for letting this argument be put over AV, and of course it led directly to 350m for the NHS.
    My bigger issue is that it's a "one-off" a bit like a windfall tax. Perhaps it's right to sell Channel 4 and perhaps a windfall tax on energy companies is fair enough. But let's not pretend that the money raised can be the basis for financing public services.

    At least with the EU referendum, the money was something we were spending constantly.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,712
    Scott_xP said:

    With both @Jeremy_Hunt and @TomTugendhat now coming out in opposition to privatisation of @Channel4, it's a reminder the PM has to take his party with him to any pass legislation. Q now is whether the numbers are there.
    https://twitter.com/paulwaugh/status/1511245649379049473

    They asked for ‘a debate’; 90% of submissions in that debate said it was a bad idea. But still they go ahead. Why do they want to make the UK’s great TV industry worse? Why? It makes no business, economic or even patriotic sense.


    https://www.theguardian.com/media/2022/apr/04/nadine-dorries-to-press-ahead-with-plan-to-privatise-channel-4

    Good morning everyone.
    Which Tory donor or group of donors have their eye upon it? Surely that's the question.

    Someone has a comment yesterday somewhere, which I thought was cynical, to the effect that Orban had pretty well all the Hungarian press and TV owned by supporters and that was why he'd won.
    As well as juggling with the voting rules and constituencies to disadvantage the Opposition.
  • WhisperingOracleWhisperingOracle Posts: 9,260
    edited April 2022
    Scott_xP said:

    With both @Jeremy_Hunt and @TomTugendhat now coming out in opposition to privatisation of @Channel4, it's a reminder the PM has to take his party with him to any pass legislation. Q now is whether the numbers are there.
    https://twitter.com/paulwaugh/status/1511245649379049473

    They asked for ‘a debate’; 90% of submissions in that debate said it was a bad idea. But still they go ahead. Why do they want to make the UK’s great TV industry worse? Why? It makes no business, economic or even patriotic sense.


    https://www.theguardian.com/media/2022/apr/04/nadine-dorries-to-press-ahead-with-plan-to-privatise-channel-4

    You could have asked the same question in the 1990's. The broadcasting legislation then wrecked the quality of ITV and Channel 4, followed by the placeman Birt at the BBC, as discussed many times on here.
  • eekeek Posts: 28,591
    Scott_xP said:

    With both @Jeremy_Hunt and @TomTugendhat now coming out in opposition to privatisation of @Channel4, it's a reminder the PM has to take his party with him to any pass legislation. Q now is whether the numbers are there.
    https://twitter.com/paulwaugh/status/1511245649379049473

    They asked for ‘a debate’; 90% of submissions in that debate said it was a bad idea. But still they go ahead. Why do they want to make the UK’s great TV industry worse? Why? It makes no business, economic or even patriotic sense.


    https://www.theguardian.com/media/2022/apr/04/nadine-dorries-to-press-ahead-with-plan-to-privatise-channel-4

    Because it's Nadine Dorries and she cannot understand complex ideas from beyond the 1950s.
  • Any doctors? Got a blood test back for allergies, Lymphocytes are 1.15, says this is a bit low? I'll talk to doctor of course but just wondered if I should worry in the mean time.

    @Foxy can you offer any insight?
  • StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 8,466

    tlg86 said:

    Guido made me chuckle this morning...

    https://order-order.com/2022/04/04/rishi-goes-ape-for-crypto/

    If you’re not already familiar the concept Guido doesn’t plan on explaining it here; keep an eye out for Guido’s own NFT coming soon…

    I keep on reading the Verge's explainer and I still don't think that I understand what NFTs are, and why people would pay real money for them. I think this might be a sign that I've reached that age where all new technology is "against nature", while when I was younger new technology was exciting and about the future.

    Or it could be that NFTs are an inexplicable fad, a psychosis born of lockdown.
    Nah they are just tulips.
    Important to remember that some people made a lot of money from Tulips. You just had to get in and out at the right time.

    Same for NFT's.

    In a sense you could look at most money as NFT in some ways. What really is a pound coin? Its not like in history where coinage actually contained gold/silver etc. And what is a note? And a BACS transfer?
    Of course they did - there are still some people living off the profits of the SouthSea Bubble or the Japanese real estate boom (who remembers the imperial palace being “worth” more than California)

    Fiat currency is a state backed token - but it is designed to be fungible as a common basis of exchange; an NFT is more like an art work - something with little intrinsic worth but which someone will pay for due to scarcity/prestige etc.

    A BACS transfer (although you really should be using FP these days) is an instruction to to your bank to make a book keeping adjustment
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 21,706
    Channel4 has to go because it’s inconvenient politically to the Tories. Their idea of a free media is a dozen Daily Mails all ramping for them.
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 17,457

    Channel 4 costs us nothing.

    Huge cost to the Tories though. Instead of a propaganda platform like GBeebies they have this woke hipster thing which undermines everything Dorries stands for
    This the true motivation IMHO, they've had a bee in their bonnet ever since they put that ice figure on TV when the Tories couldn't be bothered to turn up to a debate on climate change.

    Which they claim now they care about.
    There's no doubt that C4 is rabidly anti-tory. Want a cheap cheer on the Last Leg, slag of the Tories. (This includes baroness Warsi, who you have to wonder is a sleeper agent, so much does she seem to hate her own party). And then there's Jon 'F*ck the Tories' Snow.

    Would a privatised channel be any different? I guess it depends who buys. GB news has not exactly captured the market in the Fox news style.
    If C4 were to keep its young/edgy pitch (and given its history and where the money is, that seems rational) then it could end up going woker. Which would be ironic.

    But given the incomplete nature of this announcement, and the "we'll send people on small boats to Rawanda" report in today's Times, it could just be reheated bibble to shore up flagging Conservative support. Something to say, not to do.
  • Gary_BurtonGary_Burton Posts: 737
    I struggle to see how Melenchon gets more than 17% in the first round although I agree he's still just about a value bet to make the run off. It's surely to late for Zemmour to recover though with a lot of his sympathisers voting strategically for Le Pen.
  • WhisperingOracleWhisperingOracle Posts: 9,260
    edited April 2022
    Jonathan said:

    Channel4 has to go because it’s inconvenient politically to the Tories. Their idea of a free media is a dozen Daily Mails all ramping for them.

    Channel 4 News, as mentioned in many places again today, is essentially the last holdout of the original upmarket Channel 4 ethos, before the 1990's changes the Tories put in, in the first wave of trying to "deal with it". That means the whole channel has to go, as far as people like Dorries are concerned.
  • StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 8,466
    IshmaelZ said:

    Channel 4 costs us nothing.

    I’d rather redeploy the capital tied up in the business to build another school
    If we permit that sort of lazy fungibility every spending argument reduces to We could buy another intensive care ward for really sick kiddies instead of [other thing]. Let's examine [other thing] on its own merits shall we?

    I despise cameron for letting this argument be put over AV, and of course it led directly to 350m for the NHS.
    Not at all. Government should do what government does best, not everything.

    Taxes are raised for a purpose - to fund activities that society deems necessary and appropriate. Government should only accumulate assets that are necessary for those purposes (including a suitable reserve) not for the sake of owning assets.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,916
    edited April 2022

    I struggle to see how Melenchon gets more than 17% in the first round although I agree he's still just about a value bet to make the run off. It's surely to late for Zemmour to recover though with a lot of his sympathisers voting strategically for Le Pen.

    Where Melenchon voters go in the runoff though will likely determine whether Macron or Le Pen wins the Presidency.

    Culturally they probably overall prefer Macron but on economics and foreign policy they are probably closer to Le Pen
  • nico679nico679 Posts: 6,277
    kle4 said:

    I just cant see it getting that tight in the end, Macron just seems the obvious sensible choice. Le Pen to build on last time? Sure.

    We live in strange times ! Le Pen has managed to make herself look less of a threat and Macron decided to tell the French the pension age would be going up from 62 to 65 . This might be facing reality but many French aren’t in the mood to hear this .

  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830

    IshmaelZ said:

    Channel 4 costs us nothing.

    I’d rather redeploy the capital tied up in the business to build another school
    If we permit that sort of lazy fungibility every spending argument reduces to We could buy another intensive care ward for really sick kiddies instead of [other thing]. Let's examine [other thing] on its own merits shall we?

    I despise cameron for letting this argument be put over AV, and of course it led directly to 350m for the NHS.
    Not at all. Government should do what government does best, not everything.

    Taxes are raised for a purpose - to fund activities that society deems necessary and appropriate. Government should only accumulate assets that are necessary for those purposes (including a suitable reserve) not for the sake of owning assets.
    Sure, but in 1982 it was the most brilliantly necessary and appropriate use of public money. Five Go Mad In Dorset single handedly justified the entire investment. If divesting is now the right thing to do make the specific case, not the Appeal to Our Wonderful NHS.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 55,004

    tlg86 said:

    Guido made me chuckle this morning...

    https://order-order.com/2022/04/04/rishi-goes-ape-for-crypto/

    If you’re not already familiar the concept Guido doesn’t plan on explaining it here; keep an eye out for Guido’s own NFT coming soon…

    I keep on reading the Verge's explainer and I still don't think that I understand what NFTs are, and why people would pay real money for them. I think this might be a sign that I've reached that age where all new technology is "against nature", while when I was younger new technology was exciting and about the future.

    Or it could be that NFTs are an inexplicable fad, a psychosis born of lockdown.
    The only sensible explanation of NFTs is that they are digital art.

    The problem is that they are associated with cryptocurrencies, where we are seeing again every financial scam that’s been regulated out of existence in the past 100 years in the real currency world.
  • WhisperingOracleWhisperingOracle Posts: 9,260
    edited April 2022
    Leon said:

    The government is broke. If selling Channel
    4 would make us all £1bn, then sell it

    How on earth would it change, if sold? It will still be just another tv channel with advertising. I don’t know a single programme which I watch “because it’s on Channel 4”. And I never ask myself “ooh, what’s on Channel 4?” - because I don’t use TV like that any more. I pick and choose from online, streaming etc

    And there’s the rub. The idea of “channels” is dying. Which means that soon C4 will be almost worthless - just a brand and some buildings. Worth ten million

    Sell it now when we can make real money

    The privatisation would very likely drastically reduce the amount going to news and current affairs under the public service remit - Channel 4 spends a huge amount on that proportionally to its size. That's also very likely to be a significant factor in why they want to do it in the first place.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 21,706
    Leon said:

    The government is broke. If selling Channel
    4 would make us all £1bn, then sell it

    How on earth would it change, if sold? It will still be just another tv channel with advertising. I don’t know a single programme which I watch “because it’s on Channel 4”. And I never ask myself “ooh, what’s on Channel 4?” - because I don’t use TV like that any more. I pick and choose from online, streaming etc

    And there’s the rub. The idea of “channels” is dying. Which means that soon C4 will be almost worthless - just a brand and some buildings. Worth ten million

    Sell it now when we can make real money

    One of your weaker arguments.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 50,154
    Scott_xP said:

    Exclusive:

    Boris Johnson was poised to announce outsourcing of processing of asylum seekers to Rwanda last week but delayed after being told plans were not ready

    Times told PM wants to announce trial in coming weeks but faces significant challenges


    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/outsourcing-of-migrants-to-rwanda-edges-closer-79xjk6smt

    Since when have inconvenient practical problems ever stopped the clown from announcing some ludicrous scheme?
  • LeonLeon Posts: 56,606
    This is the second header in a row where the data posted, in graphic form, does not support the thesis of the text

    The more recent first round polling is much more favourable to Le Pen
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830

    Any doctors? Got a blood test back for allergies, Lymphocytes are 1.15, says this is a bit low? I'll talk to doctor of course but just wondered if I should worry in the mean time.

    @Foxy can you offer any insight?

    I wouldn't start reading any long novels.
  • Gary_BurtonGary_Burton Posts: 737
    Roger said:

    HYUFD said:

    The Harris poll yesterday put Le Pen a clear second in the first round though.

    Macron 27.5%
    Le Pen 22%
    Melenchon 15.5%
    Pecresse 10%
    Zemmour 10%

    https://twitter.com/EuropeElects/status/1511036597570969602?s=20&t=UfR2mbyTWodwepxRFBV-PQ

    It is amazing how voters will come out of the woodwork to make sure Le Pen doesn't win. I wouldn't trust the run off polls. Even those who viscerally loathe Macron will vote for him in the second round if Le Pen is the opponent. I don't believe these second round polls can pick that up
    I find it a bit odd that Macron has suddenly collapsed in runoff polling now against Le Pen when he's surely a known quantity unless this is all just related to reforms he's just announced? I can understand the consolidation of Le Pen's support just intrigued by all the runoff polling.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 42,155
    eek said:

    Scott_xP said:

    With both @Jeremy_Hunt and @TomTugendhat now coming out in opposition to privatisation of @Channel4, it's a reminder the PM has to take his party with him to any pass legislation. Q now is whether the numbers are there.
    https://twitter.com/paulwaugh/status/1511245649379049473

    They asked for ‘a debate’; 90% of submissions in that debate said it was a bad idea. But still they go ahead. Why do they want to make the UK’s great TV industry worse? Why? It makes no business, economic or even patriotic sense.


    https://www.theguardian.com/media/2022/apr/04/nadine-dorries-to-press-ahead-with-plan-to-privatise-channel-4

    Because it's Nadine Dorries and she cannot understand complex ideas from beyond the 1950s.
    Nads is just in a huff because C4 hasn't televisualised her filth.


  • kjhkjh Posts: 11,945

    tlg86 said:

    Guido made me chuckle this morning...

    https://order-order.com/2022/04/04/rishi-goes-ape-for-crypto/

    If you’re not already familiar the concept Guido doesn’t plan on explaining it here; keep an eye out for Guido’s own NFT coming soon…

    I keep on reading the Verge's explainer and I still don't think that I understand what NFTs are, and why people would pay real money for them. I think this might be a sign that I've reached that age where all new technology is "against nature", while when I was younger new technology was exciting and about the future.

    Or it could be that NFTs are an inexplicable fad, a psychosis born of lockdown.
    I read the article. It was very funny, particularly towards the end. It is weird in that the explanation is quite clear, particularly when compared to physical art, but my brain keeps going 'But why?'
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,568
    Many sympathies to Taz. On the whole, I think it's better to have some warning, and enjoy some time together before it gets too bad, but losing a parent is a trauma however it happens. All the very best.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 42,155
    IshmaelZ said:

    eek said:

    Scott_xP said:

    With both @Jeremy_Hunt and @TomTugendhat now coming out in opposition to privatisation of @Channel4, it's a reminder the PM has to take his party with him to any pass legislation. Q now is whether the numbers are there.
    https://twitter.com/paulwaugh/status/1511245649379049473

    They asked for ‘a debate’; 90% of submissions in that debate said it was a bad idea. But still they go ahead. Why do they want to make the UK’s great TV industry worse? Why? It makes no business, economic or even patriotic sense.


    https://www.theguardian.com/media/2022/apr/04/nadine-dorries-to-press-ahead-with-plan-to-privatise-channel-4

    Because it's Nadine Dorries and she cannot understand complex ideas from beyond the 1950s.
    Nads is just in a huff because C4 hasn't televisualised her filth.


    Please don't do that. I'm not even past the coffeeshed.
    It certainly made me lay off the yoghurt on my muesli this am.
  • kjhkjh Posts: 11,945

    It's not just Putin. When large groups of, presumably Russians, demonstrate in support of Russia's brutal war against Ukraine we know the rot in among Russians go far beyond Putin and his small inner circle.

    @HannaLiubakova · Apr 3
    An enormous car parade of cars with mostly Russian flags in Berlin, #Germany, today. Reportedly, the parade in support of Russia gathered 5000 cars.

    They can't complain about the media blackout in Germany. They have access to information and can see what Russians did in Bucha.


    https://twitter.com/andersostlund/status/1511228584538615813

    Needs everybody in Germany that gives a shit about Ukraine and the genocide being inflicted upon it by Russia to get out this weekend with a Ukrainian flag draped across their bonnet.
    Good post. It takes a lot to make me go to a demo. I have done it once in my 67 years. That would make me do it.
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670

    tlg86 said:

    Guido made me chuckle this morning...

    https://order-order.com/2022/04/04/rishi-goes-ape-for-crypto/

    If you’re not already familiar the concept Guido doesn’t plan on explaining it here; keep an eye out for Guido’s own NFT coming soon…

    I keep on reading the Verge's explainer and I still don't think that I understand what NFTs are, and why people would pay real money for them. I think this might be a sign that I've reached that age where all new technology is "against nature", while when I was younger new technology was exciting and about the future.

    Or it could be that NFTs are an inexplicable fad, a psychosis born of lockdown.
    No, NFTs are just a full on scam bucket of a shit show. There is nothing good in them that isn't covered by what we primitive humans call "a contract".

    To help, The Beano produced a very concise explanation of what an NFT is

    https://twitter.com/xannov/status/1509089728506826768
  • LeonLeon Posts: 56,606

    Leon said:

    The government is broke. If selling Channel
    4 would make us all £1bn, then sell it

    How on earth would it change, if sold? It will still be just another tv channel with advertising. I don’t know a single programme which I watch “because it’s on Channel 4”. And I never ask myself “ooh, what’s on Channel 4?” - because I don’t use TV like that any more. I pick and choose from online, streaming etc

    And there’s the rub. The idea of “channels” is dying. Which means that soon C4 will be almost worthless - just a brand and some buildings. Worth ten million

    Sell it now when we can make real money

    The privatisation would very likely drastically reduce the amount going to news and current affairs under the public service remit - Channel 4 spends a huge amount on that, proportionally to its size. That's also very likely a key reason why they want to do it.
    You have no idea how privatisation will affect it. There is an appetite for MORE news and current affairs. See GB News, Times Radio, etc, they may not have triumphed - yet - but they clearly sense there is business to be done

    Sell it.

    The government owning C4 is about as sensible and justifiable as the government owning Pizza Express
  • edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 17,708
    Leon said:

    The government is broke. If selling Channel
    4 would make us all £1bn, then sell it

    How on earth would it change, if sold? It will still be just another tv channel with advertising. I don’t know a single programme which I watch “because it’s on Channel 4”. And I never ask myself “ooh, what’s on Channel 4?” - because I don’t use TV like that any more. I pick and choose from online, streaming etc

    And there’s the rub. The idea of “channels” is dying. Which means that soon C4 will be almost worthless - just a brand and some buildings. Worth ten million

    Sell it now when we can make real money

    If you're right that it won't be worth much, I think the implication is that some rich person will buy it and use it to promote whatever cause they're into. So the question is just whether you want more media to be controlled by random rich people.
  • nico679nico679 Posts: 6,277
    edited April 2022

    Roger said:

    HYUFD said:

    The Harris poll yesterday put Le Pen a clear second in the first round though.

    Macron 27.5%
    Le Pen 22%
    Melenchon 15.5%
    Pecresse 10%
    Zemmour 10%

    https://twitter.com/EuropeElects/status/1511036597570969602?s=20&t=UfR2mbyTWodwepxRFBV-PQ

    It is amazing how voters will come out of the woodwork to make sure Le Pen doesn't win. I wouldn't trust the run off polls. Even those who viscerally loathe Macron will vote for him in the second round if Le Pen is the opponent. I don't believe these second round polls can pick that up
    I find it a bit odd that Macron has suddenly collapsed in runoff polling now against Le Pen when he's surely a known quantity unless this is all just related to reforms he's just announced? I can understand the consolidation of Le Pen's support just intrigued by all the runoff polling.
    The left have a high abstention rate and aren’t breaking for Macron with those intending to vote split . The latest Opinion Way won’t help the Elysees jitters . Macron 26 Le Pen 23 in the first round .
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    edited April 2022
    @TheScreamingEagles still awaiting poundage indication and now council polling has dropped

    https://twitter.com/BallotBoxScot/status/1511248760915038211
  • WhisperingOracleWhisperingOracle Posts: 9,260
    edited April 2022
    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    The government is broke. If selling Channel
    4 would make us all £1bn, then sell it

    How on earth would it change, if sold? It will still be just another tv channel with advertising. I don’t know a single programme which I watch “because it’s on Channel 4”. And I never ask myself “ooh, what’s on Channel 4?” - because I don’t use TV like that any more. I pick and choose from online, streaming etc

    And there’s the rub. The idea of “channels” is dying. Which means that soon C4 will be almost worthless - just a brand and some buildings. Worth ten million

    Sell it now when we can make real money

    The privatisation would very likely drastically reduce the amount going to news and current affairs under the public service remit - Channel 4 spends a huge amount on that, proportionally to its size. That's also very likely a key reason why they want to do it.
    You have no idea how privatisation will affect it. There is an appetite for MORE news and current affairs. See GB News, Times Radio, etc, they may not have triumphed - yet - but they clearly sense there is business to be done

    Sell it.

    The government owning C4 is about as sensible and justifiable as the government owning Pizza Express
    Look at the precedents - once you remove a public service remit, things are very different. GB News is like Talk Radio, or Twitter ; noise and fire for clicks. When the Tories removed the public service requirements for the ITV channels, for instance, both the quality *and* quantity of current affairs went through the floor. That's essentially the precedent they're interested in ; removing the politically troublesome.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 36,100
    Selling Channel 4 is like leaving the single market.

    Brexiteers love it.

    Conservatives know it's fucking stupid.
  • eekeek Posts: 28,591
    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    The government is broke. If selling Channel
    4 would make us all £1bn, then sell it

    How on earth would it change, if sold? It will still be just another tv channel with advertising. I don’t know a single programme which I watch “because it’s on Channel 4”. And I never ask myself “ooh, what’s on Channel 4?” - because I don’t use TV like that any more. I pick and choose from online, streaming etc

    And there’s the rub. The idea of “channels” is dying. Which means that soon C4 will be almost worthless - just a brand and some buildings. Worth ten million

    Sell it now when we can make real money

    The privatisation would very likely drastically reduce the amount going to news and current affairs under the public service remit - Channel 4 spends a huge amount on that, proportionally to its size. That's also very likely a key reason why they want to do it.
    You have no idea how privatisation will affect it. There is an appetite for MORE news and current affairs. See GB News, Times Radio, etc, they may not have triumphed - yet - but they clearly sense there is business to be done

    Sell it.

    The government owning C4 is about as sensible and justifiable as the government owning Pizza Express
    It's set up as the 1980's equivalent of a "community interest company" which is what it is - it provides the backbone upon which our independent TV sector has been built over the past 40 years.

    It's fine saying privatise it and let it try to compete with Netflix and Amazon but that just shows how little the Government understands Netflix (and especially Amazon's TV) business models.
  • TazTaz Posts: 15,044
    Leon said:

    The government is broke. If selling Channel
    4 would make us all £1bn, then sell it

    How on earth would it change, if sold? It will still be just another tv channel with advertising. I don’t know a single programme which I watch “because it’s on Channel 4”. And I never ask myself “ooh, what’s on Channel 4?” - because I don’t use TV like that any more. I pick and choose from online, streaming etc

    And there’s the rub. The idea of “channels” is dying. Which means that soon C4 will be almost worthless - just a brand and some buildings. Worth ten million

    Sell it now when we can make real money

    Channel 4 is several channels including all4, more4 and E4. Channel 4 seem better than the beeb at realising linear channels are on the way out too.

    I cannot see any reason why it should be state owned.

    As a broadcaster it’s okay. It’s hardly a bastion of high quality tv. It has some good stuff and plenty of pap on it. Like any other broadcaster. I’ve not heard one good objection to it being privatised.

    In the long term it is too small, too niche, and hard to see who it will appear to in future.

    I suspect the Tory objections are partly party politics.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 28,422

    Foxy said:

    tlg86 said:

    Scott_xP said:

    NEW: Jeremy Hunt becomes the most senior Tory to criticise plans to privatise Channel 4. The former Culture Secretary: "I'm not in favour of it because as it stands Channel 4 provides competition to the BBC on public service broadcasting."
    https://twitter.com/KevinASchofield/status/1511232996468310017

    Competition on public service broadcasting...

    Erm...

    Does that mean we need a second NHS?
    Well that is why Trusts are set up that way, to compete with each other. So not a second NHS, but hundreds. Thousands if you include GPs.
    Yes the classic idea of letting the market improve things. Yet you don't really get a choice of GP do you? If your surgery is too busy because there are too few GP's and too many patients, you can't choose a different surgery (at least not in my mid sized market town, as there is only one.)
    Beckenham has 47,000 people and six GP surgeries, so far as I can make out from 30 seconds with Google, so yes. It may be different where you live, and perhaps if there is one practice per 5,000 people then there will be patients with less choice.
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830

    Leon said:

    The government is broke. If selling Channel
    4 would make us all £1bn, then sell it

    How on earth would it change, if sold? It will still be just another tv channel with advertising. I don’t know a single programme which I watch “because it’s on Channel 4”. And I never ask myself “ooh, what’s on Channel 4?” - because I don’t use TV like that any more. I pick and choose from online, streaming etc

    And there’s the rub. The idea of “channels” is dying. Which means that soon C4 will be almost worthless - just a brand and some buildings. Worth ten million

    Sell it now when we can make real money

    If you're right that it won't be worth much, I think the implication is that some rich person will buy it and use it to promote whatever cause they're into. So the question is just whether you want more media to be controlled by random rich people.
    And what exactly is random about Lord Lebedevsky?
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,568
    Leon said:

    The government is broke. If selling Channel
    4 would make us all £1bn, then sell it

    How on earth would it change, if sold? It will still be just another tv channel with advertising. I don’t know a single programme which I watch “because it’s on Channel 4”. And I never ask myself “ooh, what’s on Channel 4?” - because I don’t use TV like that any more. I pick and choose from online, streaming etc

    And there’s the rub. The idea of “channels” is dying. Which means that soon C4 will be almost worthless - just a brand and some buildings. Worth ten million

    Sell it now when we can make real money

    I must admit I'm finding that a bit persuasive. While C4 has a youthful, challenging air, there's no guarantee that it always will, and conversely a buyer may think it in their commercial interest to retain that aspect of the brand.

    I do know a lot of people who simply put the TV on when they feel like watching something, and then flip through the channels for something they like. But like you and most younger people, I tend to pick things to watch by theme and convenient time for me, rather than because they're broadcast at a particular time.

    The exception is the news, and the last poll I saw showed that's still a common exception, with BBC1 at 6 still dominant. I wouldn't even know how to follow the news by looking for it on YouTube or Twitter - do many people do that as their primary source? Understanding of what's happening does seem pervasive - at least, polling gets opinions on all sorts of news items reather than a wall of "don't knows" - so those who don't watch news live are getting it somewhere. How does a typical 25-year-old follow what's happening?

  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 43,046

    Leon said:

    The government is broke. If selling Channel
    4 would make us all £1bn, then sell it

    How on earth would it change, if sold? It will still be just another tv channel with advertising. I don’t know a single programme which I watch “because it’s on Channel 4”. And I never ask myself “ooh, what’s on Channel 4?” - because I don’t use TV like that any more. I pick and choose from online, streaming etc

    And there’s the rub. The idea of “channels” is dying. Which means that soon C4 will be almost worthless - just a brand and some buildings. Worth ten million

    Sell it now when we can make real money

    If you're right that it won't be worth much, I think the implication is that some rich person will buy it and use it to promote whatever cause they're into. So the question is just whether you want more media to be controlled by random rich people.
    There is plenty of media controlled by random rich people. And socialists. And fascists. And (perhaps, who knows) Zoroastrians.

    It is of course the watching/purchasing public that actually controls the media.
  • Sandpit said:

    DavidL said:

    Foxy said:

    Why privatise Channel 4? Just seems like ideological dogma to me

    Why should the state fund a TV channel out of taxation? If there is demand for the products it produces they can fund externally.
    It isn't state funded, it is state owned, funded by advertising. It commisions work, with very little direct production. It was set up under Mrs Thatcher that way, to encourage a diverse array of independent creative producers. This is part of the reason we have such strong creative industries.

    Ruth Davidson explains it well:

    Channel 4 is publicly owned, not publicly funded. It doesn't cost the tax payer a penny. It also, by charter, commissions content but doesn't make/own its own. It's one of the reasons we have such a thriving indy sector in places like Glasgow. This is the opposite of levelling up

    https://twitter.com/RuthDavidsonPC/status/1511226059370471424?t=lQWh36mFgjJx5t7OBxrpuQ&s=19
    To me the idea of a TV channel with a schedule etc is becoming increasingly archaic and relatively pointless. I cannot think of a program that I have watched according to a schedule in the last several years other than sport.

    If C4 had not been invented when it was it certainly wouldn't exist now where there are a multiplicity of offerings on various platforms but it does exist, it doesn't on the face of it do any harm, it adds a different voice and doesn't cost the public money.

    I really cannot see the point in changing something not obviously broken. I think it is doubtful, as channels fade into irrelevance, that it would be capable of providing an additional income stream to a shareholder. It is better that all of its advertising revenue is fed back into programs. This will help it survive for a bit longer but I suspect in at least its current form its future is limited and that income stream will no longer be sufficient. Not exactly an enticing investment.
    C4 is an asset, the value of which will slowly decline over time as people continue to move away from linear broadcasting.

    The best time to sell it off was yesterday.
    We all know that isn't why they are selling it off.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 55,004
    edited April 2022
    Channel 4 has been going downhill since The Word got cancelled, and really lost its mind when the cricket moved to Sky.
  • WhisperingOracleWhisperingOracle Posts: 9,260
    edited April 2022
    Taz said:

    Leon said:

    The government is broke. If selling Channel
    4 would make us all £1bn, then sell it

    How on earth would it change, if sold? It will still be just another tv channel with advertising. I don’t know a single programme which I watch “because it’s on Channel 4”. And I never ask myself “ooh, what’s on Channel 4?” - because I don’t use TV like that any more. I pick and choose from online, streaming etc

    And there’s the rub. The idea of “channels” is dying. Which means that soon C4 will be almost worthless - just a brand and some buildings. Worth ten million

    Sell it now when we can make real money

    Channel 4 is several channels including all4, more4 and E4. Channel 4 seem better than the beeb at realising linear channels are on the way out too.

    I cannot see any reason why it should be state owned.

    As a broadcaster it’s okay. It’s hardly a bastion of high quality tv. It has some good stuff and plenty of pap on it. Like any other broadcaster. I’ve not heard one good objection to it being privatised.

    In the long term it is too small, too niche, and hard to see who it will appear to in future.

    I suspect the Tory objections are partly party politics.
    One reason for retaining the current structure is that the public service requirements very likely won't survive privatisation.

    This also happens to be the same reason why parts of the Tory radical right are interested in it.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 43,046
    Taz said:

    Leon said:

    The government is broke. If selling Channel
    4 would make us all £1bn, then sell it

    How on earth would it change, if sold? It will still be just another tv channel with advertising. I don’t know a single programme which I watch “because it’s on Channel 4”. And I never ask myself “ooh, what’s on Channel 4?” - because I don’t use TV like that any more. I pick and choose from online, streaming etc

    And there’s the rub. The idea of “channels” is dying. Which means that soon C4 will be almost worthless - just a brand and some buildings. Worth ten million

    Sell it now when we can make real money

    Channel 4 is several channels including all4, more4 and E4. Channel 4 seem better than the beeb at realising linear channels are on the way out too.

    I cannot see any reason why it should be state owned.

    As a broadcaster it’s okay. It’s hardly a bastion of high quality tv. It has some good stuff and plenty of pap on it. Like any other broadcaster. I’ve not heard one good objection to it being privatised.

    In the long term it is too small, too niche, and hard to see who it will appear to in future.

    I suspect the Tory objections are partly party politics.
    Channel4, or whichever incarnation it is of it - All4, etc, has the most extraordinary (and currently free, albeit with ads) back catalogue of mini-series. I'm sure there will be a plan by a private owner further to monetise that beyond ad revenue. Or perhaps the ad revenue is very healthy.
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830
    TOPPING said:

    Leon said:

    The government is broke. If selling Channel
    4 would make us all £1bn, then sell it

    How on earth would it change, if sold? It will still be just another tv channel with advertising. I don’t know a single programme which I watch “because it’s on Channel 4”. And I never ask myself “ooh, what’s on Channel 4?” - because I don’t use TV like that any more. I pick and choose from online, streaming etc

    And there’s the rub. The idea of “channels” is dying. Which means that soon C4 will be almost worthless - just a brand and some buildings. Worth ten million

    Sell it now when we can make real money

    If you're right that it won't be worth much, I think the implication is that some rich person will buy it and use it to promote whatever cause they're into. So the question is just whether you want more media to be controlled by random rich people.
    There is plenty of media controlled by random rich people. And socialists. And fascists. And (perhaps, who knows) Zoroastrians.

    It is of course the watching/purchasing public that actually controls the media.
    Would that be the public whose taste nobody ever went broke underestimating?
  • TheWhiteRabbitTheWhiteRabbit Posts: 12,454

    Leon said:

    The government is broke. If selling Channel
    4 would make us all £1bn, then sell it

    How on earth would it change, if sold? It will still be just another tv channel with advertising. I don’t know a single programme which I watch “because it’s on Channel 4”. And I never ask myself “ooh, what’s on Channel 4?” - because I don’t use TV like that any more. I pick and choose from online, streaming etc

    And there’s the rub. The idea of “channels” is dying. Which means that soon C4 will be almost worthless - just a brand and some buildings. Worth ten million

    Sell it now when we can make real money

    I must admit I'm finding that a bit persuasive. While C4 has a youthful, challenging air, there's no guarantee that it always will, and conversely a buyer may think it in their commercial interest to retain that aspect of the brand.

    I do know a lot of people who simply put the TV on when they feel like watching something, and then flip through the channels for something they like. But like you and most younger people, I tend to pick things to watch by theme and convenient time for me, rather than because they're broadcast at a particular time.

    The exception is the news, and the last poll I saw showed that's still a common exception, with BBC1 at 6 still dominant. I wouldn't even know how to follow the news by looking for it on YouTube or Twitter - do many people do that as their primary source? Understanding of what's happening does seem pervasive - at least, polling gets opinions on all sorts of news items reather than a wall of "don't knows" - so those who don't watch news live are getting it somewhere. How does a typical 25-year-old follow what's happening?

    Nick I couldn't tell you the last time I watched a news programme on TV. Someone else's house perhaps.

    I read the headlines online, I read here, I have Twitter. That's enough for me; even though I watch hours and hours of YouTube, I don't need it for news.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 36,100
    🚨New Westminster Voting Intention🚨

    📈Labour 7pt lead

    🌳Con 33 (-2)
    🌹Lab 40 (+1)
    🔶LD 11 (=)
    🎗️SNP 5 (=)
    🌍Green 4 (+1)
    ⬜️Other 8 +1)

    2,220 UK adults, 1-3 April

    (chg from 25-27 March) https://twitter.com/SavantaComRes/status/1511257309070114816/photo/1
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,937
    Taz said:

    Leon said:

    The government is broke. If selling Channel
    4 would make us all £1bn, then sell it

    How on earth would it change, if sold? It will still be just another tv channel with advertising. I don’t know a single programme which I watch “because it’s on Channel 4”. And I never ask myself “ooh, what’s on Channel 4?” - because I don’t use TV like that any more. I pick and choose from online, streaming etc

    And there’s the rub. The idea of “channels” is dying. Which means that soon C4 will be almost worthless - just a brand and some buildings. Worth ten million

    Sell it now when we can make real money

    Channel 4 is several channels including all4, more4 and E4. Channel 4 seem better than the beeb at realising linear channels are on the way out too.

    I cannot see any reason why it should be state owned.

    As a broadcaster it’s okay. It’s hardly a bastion of high quality tv. It has some good stuff and plenty of pap on it. Like any other broadcaster. I’ve not heard one good objection to it being privatised.

    In the long term it is too small, too niche, and hard to see who it will appear to in future.

    I suspect the Tory objections are partly party politics.
    If the Tory objections are partly party politics, then you have to say Channel 4 only have themselves to blame. You can predict with 100% accuracy which way they will come down on a story - and their gotcha! interviews mean nobody wants to go on their news output.

    A somewhat more nuanced approach occasionally might have paid better dividends.

    Of course, they might survive with a blatant left-wing slant in a commercial sphere. Might.
  • SelebianSelebian Posts: 8,832
    FPT:
    Nigelb said:

    UK’s First Light Fusion demonstrates fusion with its kinetic impact method.
    https://firstlightfusion.com/media/fusion

    Proof of concept for what is possibly the most quickly achievable way of building a commercial fusion plant to generate electricity.

    Now, that is quite exciting. The laser approaches have looked promising, but this is an interesting alternative take.

    Also, what a fun project to be working on. Sometimes I wish I'd stuck with physics (I had an interest in fusion at one point, but observed a jaded lecturer who'd spent most of his career at JET and had come to the conclusion that fusion would be forever just out of reach).
  • WhisperingOracleWhisperingOracle Posts: 9,260
    edited April 2022
    Scott_xP said:

    🚨New Westminster Voting Intention🚨

    📈Labour 7pt lead

    🌳Con 33 (-2)
    🌹Lab 40 (+1)
    🔶LD 11 (=)
    🎗️SNP 5 (=)
    🌍Green 4 (+1)
    ⬜️Other 8 +1)

    2,220 UK adults, 1-3 April

    (chg from 25-27 March) https://twitter.com/SavantaComRes/status/1511257309070114816/photo/1

    Hmm.. 7 point leads seem to be a theme at the moment. An unusually strong and exact confluence of pollsters, n'est-ce-pas ? Maybe public opinion is unusually settled at the moment.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 43,046

    Leon said:

    The government is broke. If selling Channel
    4 would make us all £1bn, then sell it

    How on earth would it change, if sold? It will still be just another tv channel with advertising. I don’t know a single programme which I watch “because it’s on Channel 4”. And I never ask myself “ooh, what’s on Channel 4?” - because I don’t use TV like that any more. I pick and choose from online, streaming etc

    And there’s the rub. The idea of “channels” is dying. Which means that soon C4 will be almost worthless - just a brand and some buildings. Worth ten million

    Sell it now when we can make real money

    The exception is the news, and the last poll I saw showed that's still a common exception, with BBC1 at 6 still dominant. I wouldn't even know how to follow the news by looking for it on YouTube or Twitter - do many people do that as their primary source?
    @BartholomewRoberts is your man for that. He looks at everything but the Beeb for everything.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 43,046
    IshmaelZ said:

    TOPPING said:

    Leon said:

    The government is broke. If selling Channel
    4 would make us all £1bn, then sell it

    How on earth would it change, if sold? It will still be just another tv channel with advertising. I don’t know a single programme which I watch “because it’s on Channel 4”. And I never ask myself “ooh, what’s on Channel 4?” - because I don’t use TV like that any more. I pick and choose from online, streaming etc

    And there’s the rub. The idea of “channels” is dying. Which means that soon C4 will be almost worthless - just a brand and some buildings. Worth ten million

    Sell it now when we can make real money

    If you're right that it won't be worth much, I think the implication is that some rich person will buy it and use it to promote whatever cause they're into. So the question is just whether you want more media to be controlled by random rich people.
    There is plenty of media controlled by random rich people. And socialists. And fascists. And (perhaps, who knows) Zoroastrians.

    It is of course the watching/purchasing public that actually controls the media.
    Would that be the public whose taste nobody ever went broke underestimating?
    Damn them.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 36,100
    Boris Johnson prizes loyalty to him above all else. And as he is the least loyal person, in every conceivable way, that public life has ever known, only the very stupidest people would ever be loyal to him. And this is where it ends. https://twitter.com/NewStatesman/status/1463856383598735362
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 43,046

    Taz said:

    Leon said:

    The government is broke. If selling Channel
    4 would make us all £1bn, then sell it

    How on earth would it change, if sold? It will still be just another tv channel with advertising. I don’t know a single programme which I watch “because it’s on Channel 4”. And I never ask myself “ooh, what’s on Channel 4?” - because I don’t use TV like that any more. I pick and choose from online, streaming etc

    And there’s the rub. The idea of “channels” is dying. Which means that soon C4 will be almost worthless - just a brand and some buildings. Worth ten million

    Sell it now when we can make real money

    Channel 4 is several channels including all4, more4 and E4. Channel 4 seem better than the beeb at realising linear channels are on the way out too.

    I cannot see any reason why it should be state owned.

    As a broadcaster it’s okay. It’s hardly a bastion of high quality tv. It has some good stuff and plenty of pap on it. Like any other broadcaster. I’ve not heard one good objection to it being privatised.

    In the long term it is too small, too niche, and hard to see who it will appear to in future.

    I suspect the Tory objections are partly party politics.
    If the Tory objections are partly party politics, then you have to say Channel 4 only have themselves to blame. You can predict with 100% accuracy which way they will come down on a story - and their gotcha! interviews mean nobody wants to go on their news output.

    A somewhat more nuanced approach occasionally might have paid better dividends.

    Of course, they might survive with a blatant left-wing slant in a commercial sphere. Might.
    Yes and no. First off I think it should be privatised. But penalising it for taking an editorial position doesn't seem right. Then again, once it is in private hands such a point becomes moot as it can do whatever it wants and if there is appetite for it from consumers then the govt can do one.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 23,915
    edited April 2022
    Roger said:

    ping said:

    Why privatise Channel 4? Just seems like ideological dogma to me

    Privatising the BBC/Channel 4 is one of the few issues that I’ve completely changed my mind over, over the last few years.

    I used to be completely against privatisation, now I don’t see what the problem is. I’m in favour of a smart state, flexible about moving things in and out of private/public ownership.

    Generally - If there’s a market, genuine competition and space for innovation, it should be private.

    Essential service &/or a natural monopoly? Public.

    I’d bring water, energy and trains into public ownership - and privatise the BBC/Channel 4.
    Would you be happy for it to be bought by Richard Desmond and turned into Express TV?
    All it needs is a decent editorial / regulatory framework.

    And perhaps a golden share.

    If it is so viable that it costs us nothing, then it can stand on its own 2 feet just as well.

    C4 does not necessarily have to be a commercial corporation - there are other models. I've argued in the past for an NT style membership model for the BBC, and that could just as well be used for C4.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,475
    Good morning. The news about onshore wind is profoundly depressing. It seems we will wean ourselves off foreign fossil fuels by doing, erm, pretty much the same as we have always done.
  • CookieCookie Posts: 14,078
    edited April 2022
    TOPPING said:

    Leon said:

    The government is broke. If selling Channel
    4 would make us all £1bn, then sell it

    How on earth would it change, if sold? It will still be just another tv channel with advertising. I don’t know a single programme which I watch “because it’s on Channel 4”. And I never ask myself “ooh, what’s on Channel 4?” - because I don’t use TV like that any more. I pick and choose from online, streaming etc

    And there’s the rub. The idea of “channels” is dying. Which means that soon C4 will be almost worthless - just a brand and some buildings. Worth ten million

    Sell it now when we can make real money

    The exception is the news, and the last poll I saw showed that's still a common exception, with BBC1 at 6 still dominant. I wouldn't even know how to follow the news by looking for it on YouTube or Twitter - do many people do that as their primary source?
    @BartholomewRoberts is your man for that. He looks at everything but the Beeb for everything.
    Since the pandemic, I've made every effort to avoid the BBC for news. The only interaction I have with it is news bulletins on radio 6 - even then I switch over as often as not.
    Even before the pandemic, I can't remember the last time I went out of my way to watch broadcast news. And I'm someone who is quite interested in news.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 28,422

    Taz said:

    Leon said:

    The government is broke. If selling Channel
    4 would make us all £1bn, then sell it

    How on earth would it change, if sold? It will still be just another tv channel with advertising. I don’t know a single programme which I watch “because it’s on Channel 4”. And I never ask myself “ooh, what’s on Channel 4?” - because I don’t use TV like that any more. I pick and choose from online, streaming etc

    And there’s the rub. The idea of “channels” is dying. Which means that soon C4 will be almost worthless - just a brand and some buildings. Worth ten million

    Sell it now when we can make real money

    Channel 4 is several channels including all4, more4 and E4. Channel 4 seem better than the beeb at realising linear channels are on the way out too.

    I cannot see any reason why it should be state owned.

    As a broadcaster it’s okay. It’s hardly a bastion of high quality tv. It has some good stuff and plenty of pap on it. Like any other broadcaster. I’ve not heard one good objection to it being privatised.

    In the long term it is too small, too niche, and hard to see who it will appear to in future.

    I suspect the Tory objections are partly party politics.
    If the Tory objections are partly party politics, then you have to say Channel 4 only have themselves to blame. You can predict with 100% accuracy which way they will come down on a story - and their gotcha! interviews mean nobody wants to go on their news output.

    A somewhat more nuanced approach occasionally might have paid better dividends.

    Of course, they might survive with a blatant left-wing slant in a commercial sphere. Might.
    Is that actually true? Have there been more complaints? Is it just an impression because comedy shows, for instance, will make most of their jokes about the government?
  • ApplicantApplicant Posts: 3,379

    Leon said:

    The government is broke. If selling Channel
    4 would make us all £1bn, then sell it

    How on earth would it change, if sold? It will still be just another tv channel with advertising. I don’t know a single programme which I watch “because it’s on Channel 4”. And I never ask myself “ooh, what’s on Channel 4?” - because I don’t use TV like that any more. I pick and choose from online, streaming etc

    And there’s the rub. The idea of “channels” is dying. Which means that soon C4 will be almost worthless - just a brand and some buildings. Worth ten million

    Sell it now when we can make real money

    I must admit I'm finding that a bit persuasive. While C4 has a youthful, challenging air, there's no guarantee that it always will, and conversely a buyer may think it in their commercial interest to retain that aspect of the brand.

    I do know a lot of people who simply put the TV on when they feel like watching something, and then flip through the channels for something they like. But like you and most younger people, I tend to pick things to watch by theme and convenient time for me, rather than because they're broadcast at a particular time.

    The exception is the news, and the last poll I saw showed that's still a common exception, with BBC1 at 6 still dominant. I wouldn't even know how to follow the news by looking for it on YouTube or Twitter - do many people do that as their primary source? Understanding of what's happening does seem pervasive - at least, polling gets opinions on all sorts of news items reather than a wall of "don't knows" - so those who don't watch news live are getting it somewhere. How does a typical 25-year-old follow what's happening?

    Nick I couldn't tell you the last time I watched a news programme on TV. Someone else's house perhaps.

    I read the headlines online, I read here, I have Twitter. That's enough for me; even though I watch hours and hours of YouTube, I don't need it for news.
    The idea of watching a news bulletin just seems so antiquated to me. I have PB, I have Twitter, I have breaking news alerts.
This discussion has been closed.