Okay, let's settle this. In a Fascist dictatorship, which PBers make it onto the list? And which don't?
TBH, I imagine most of us would, in the end, make it on. That's the nature of Facism. Maybe tomorrow evening we could do a Communist Dictatorship and next week we can discuss who would make it onto the list in a communitarian eco-collective (we all know it's all of us, except those whom Dura Ace chooses to save).
The ridiculous spectacle of PB arguing whether @hyufd from Epping is a fascist when we have actual Fascism slaughtering thousands of Europeans RIGHT NOW, presaging all out global war
Get a grip. Everyone
The polemicist who wrote this wants the rest of us to “get a grip”:
“I understand your pain. When asked, the brave Brits, especially the noble English, said Yes, we want to be independent. Give us our freedom from Brussels
Whereas the Scots, when asked the same question, said, NO, we’d like stay a colony of England, thanks
Pretty convincing allegations that Russian soldiers found 5 Ukrainian girls, stripped them, raped them, shot them, then tried to conceal the evidence by burning their bodies on tyres. By a road. They failed to destroy the “evidence”
I shan’t link. It’s out there
This is now a purely Fascist army, out of control. Yet backed by 80% of its people
I’m not sure how this ends without a final showdown with Russia, and the extinction of Russia. Or all of us
No one wants this, but it seems near inevitable
One thing we can do - short of that - is tighten the sanctions enormously. Refuse Russian oil and gas. Deal with the consequences
The same stuff has been troubling me. Its Wayne Couzens x 10000
However.... isn't this actually pretty normal in war? The difference being that this time it has all been recorded.
It seems to me like the most likely outcome is that Russia gets labelled a pariah state and is completely cancelled by the west, but it goes on doing its business with much of the rest of the world as before.
It just seems that, sadly, business is business and many countries don't see this conflict the way we do. They will be happy to go on dealing with Putin's Russia.
I decided to have a cosy quiet day in to get better - reading in front of the fire, that sort of thing. But despite all that and a bowl of delicious tomato and lentil soup made with real home-made chicken broth, I feel bloody awful this evening. Absolutely exhausted and scarcely able to climb the stairs to bed.
Boring.
And yes @Leon is right: the atrocities in Ukraine are what real fascism mean - utterly repellent war crimes.
@HYUFD having been away and just read the end of the last thread it is also not edifying that having got 2 things of no importance whatsoever wrong you can't admit it. You specifically said a restaurant had a Michelin star and one had to go through Essex on a trip you defined. Neither were correct. You then moved the goal posts on both.
What is wrong with you that you can never admit you are wrong even on trivia?
I really don't care, this is a politics blog not Mastermind. However I will admit I was not exactly right if that makes you happy.
Still does not give you the right to call me a Fascist!
Neither do I buy you seem to as you will bang on and on trying to defend an obvious error.
I have every right to call you a fascist because that is what your views imply. I forgot about that admiration of Franco that others stated. You fit that group almost perfectly. The only area where you don't would be that, to your credit, you don't express any race or homophobic views.
Well given an actual former Fascist is polling 47% in the French election runoff polls later this month and Trump, frequently called a Fascist got 46% in 2016 and 47% in 2020 in the US election and the President of Russia has just invaded his neighbour one could say there is a fair amount of Fascism about again now. Some have also called Bolsonaro, the President of Italy and Salvini, the main right of centre leader in Italy, Fascists. However I am a conservative not a Fascist
If you are a conservative why are you such a fan of a PM who has more in common with the Revolutionary Communist Party than Ken Clarke or Phillip Hammond?
At best you are an extreme Conservative party loyalist (which is quite different from conservative), but from your posting it seems reasonable to assume you at least admire many fascists, and are happy to adopt their style of politics, even if you do not want the same outcomes.
It is of course common practice now for many on the left or liberal spectrum to call anyone further right of Ken Clarke or David Cameron a Fascist. In which case 43% of the country are Fascists given they voted for Boris in 2019. I of course did vote for May's Tories over Farage in the 2019 European elections unlike some on here.
However given Labour voters in 2019 and 2017 voted for a near Communist with plenty of anti Semitic supporters you don't really have a great deal of moral high ground on this
You really don't get it, do you? It is not about being left or right. Steve Baker or David Davis are both significantly to the right of Clarke or Cameron but have a very different approach, and are in no sense fascists.
They don't want to take us back to the glorious 1950s. They do not view dissent as treason. They don't drone on about past wars. They can think for themselves rather than rely on the "will of the people".
Steve Baker and David Davis are extreme libertarians, quite often more than they are conservatives.
Hence liberals might like some of their views in a way they cannot tolerate the views of traditional conservatives, hence they call them 'Fascists'.
Of course driving traditional conservatives in this way out of mainstream debate is the quickest way to expand support for those who genuinely are Fascists
You genuinely are a fascist. Although you share many of the same views as Tory MPs, nearly all of them do NOT share your views that fall into the fascist camp.
Let me give you another example. Nigel Farage is to the right of the Tories but I wouldn't call him a fascist, although he is pushing the boundaries sometime.
You won't because it wouldn't help you win your tedious argument as to why you have to call me a Fascist, that is all.
Well I can prove that wrong because it was discussed the other day and I said so then. I can find the reference if you wish. Not doing very well in this argument are you,?
You started this argument by resorting to abuse, not me.
You are clearly not going to withdraw your allegation so why should I care, it says more about you than me
If you seriously think it OK to invade Scotland to enforce the Union, you are seriously a fascist.
If you are only joking, it is permissible to call you a fascist in a spirit of harmless fun.
You cannot invade part of your own sovereign country, Scotland is as much a part of the UK as England is.
I also never once said we should invade them, however indyref2 should be refused for a generation and if it needed riot police to enforce that because of extreme Scottish nationalists then so be it
You are breathtakingly embarrasing
I hope you do not share your views when canvassing
It is official Conservative policy to refuse indyref2 for a generation, of course I would
It may be policy to refuse it this parliament , but then it is upto parliament to decide which at present would refuse
However your language with reference to sending in riot police is incendiary and you have in the past mentioned tanks
You are an embarrassment not only to the party but yourself and you have the ability to make it worse
Shame on you
He's entitled to his views on Scotland and HYUFD is not a fascist. It's all academic for now anyway as I don't actually see another indyref happening until at least 2028 anyway.
It's his views on Northern Ireland I'm concerned by, particularly his support for Jamie Bryson's mob and apparent sympathy for hardline loyalists at times, particularly the protocol protests which the UUP leader has now pulled out of.
I have not said @HYUFD is a fascist, just his language is incendiary on Scotland
Not sure, why there's all this pother about sending in tanks north of the border. IndyRef is a dead duck.
"However, the numbers fell well short of the 10,000 that organiser All Under One Banner had hoped for. One independent counter clocked up 735 marchers along with 65 motorbikes."
Reluctant though I am to contribute to a really tedious debate, HYUFD is neither a fascist nor a true Conservative. He's a Millwall supporter: nobody likes him, but he really doesn't care. However rubbish his team, he'll support them to the bitter end and fight the enemy.
Personally, though, I find his contributions very useful, and not just on polling. Know thine enemy, as they say.
Although I disagree with most (all?) of what @HYUFD says, he always argues politely, which is more than can be said of many of his critics this evening.
Okay, let's settle this. In a Fascist dictatorship, which PBers make it onto the list? And which don't?
TBH, I imagine most of us would, in the end, make it on. That's the nature of Facism. Maybe tomorrow evening we could do a Communist Dictatorship and next week we can discuss who would make it onto the list in a communitarian eco-collective (we all know it's all of us, except those whom Dura Ace chooses to save).
I decided to have a cosy quiet day in to get better - reading in front of the fire, that sort of thing. But despite all that and a bowl of delicious tomato and lentil soup made with real home-made chicken broth, I feel bloody awful this evening. Absolutely exhausted and scarcely able to climb the stairs to bed.
Boring.
And yes @Leon is right: the atrocities in Ukraine are what real fascism mean - utterly repellent war crimes.
Night all.
Have a restful night and hope you feel better in the morning
The ridiculous spectacle of PB arguing whether @hyufd from Epping is a fascist when we have actual Fascism slaughtering thousands of Europeans RIGHT NOW, presaging all out global war
Get a grip. Everyone
The stuff coming out of Ukraine is increasingly niche. It always goes like this. It just gets so shit, that people want to switch off from it.
The ridiculous spectacle of PB arguing whether @hyufd from Epping is a fascist when we have actual Fascism slaughtering thousands of Europeans RIGHT NOW, presaging all out global war
Get a grip. Everyone
The polemicist who wrote this wants the rest of us to “get a grip”:
“I understand your pain. When asked, the brave Brits, especially the noble English, said Yes, we want to be independent. Give us our freedom from Brussels
Whereas the Scots, when asked the same question, said, NO, we’d like stay a colony of England, thanks
It must hurt every day”
What was it you were saying about nursing grudges? How long have you been saving that?
Pretty convincing allegations that Russian soldiers found 5 Ukrainian girls, stripped them, raped them, shot them, then tried to conceal the evidence by burning their bodies on tyres. By a road. They failed to destroy the “evidence”
I shan’t link. It’s out there
This is now a purely Fascist army, out of control. Yet backed by 80% of its people
I’m not sure how this ends without a final showdown with Russia, and the extinction of Russia. Or all of us
No one wants this, but it seems near inevitable
One thing we can do - short of that - is tighten the sanctions enormously. Refuse Russian oil and gas. Deal with the consequences
The same stuff has been troubling me. Its Wayne Couzens x 10000
However.... isn't this actually pretty normal in war? The difference being that this time it has all been recorded.
It seems to me like the most likely outcome is that Russia gets labelled a pariah state and is completely cancelled by the west, but it goes on doing its business with much of the rest of the world as before.
It just seems that, sadly, business is business and many countries don't see this conflict the way we do. They will be happy to go on dealing with Putin's Russia.
Largely agree. I'd imagine much of Africa and the middle east will see this as the natural state of things, and pretty small beer compared to what some of them have endured and/or committed.
Pretty convincing allegations that Russian soldiers found 5 Ukrainian girls, stripped them, raped them, shot them, then tried to conceal the evidence by burning their bodies on tyres. By a road. They failed to destroy the “evidence”
I shan’t link. It’s out there
This is now a purely Fascist army, out of control. Yet backed by 80% of its people
I’m not sure how this ends without a final showdown with Russia, and the extinction of Russia. Or all of us
No one wants this, but it seems near inevitable
One thing we can do - short of that - is tighten the sanctions enormously. Refuse Russian oil and gas. Deal with the consequences
Feels wrong to "like" this post so I will say I agree.
If Russia didn't have nukes pointed at us we would be at war already.
@HYUFD having been away and just read the end of the last thread it is also not edifying that having got 2 things of no importance whatsoever wrong you can't admit it. You specifically said a restaurant had a Michelin star and one had to go through Essex on a trip you defined. Neither were correct. You then moved the goal posts on both.
What is wrong with you that you can never admit you are wrong even on trivia?
I really don't care, this is a politics blog not Mastermind. However I will admit I was not exactly right if that makes you happy.
Still does not give you the right to call me a Fascist!
Neither do I buy you seem to as you will bang on and on trying to defend an obvious error.
I have every right to call you a fascist because that is what your views imply. I forgot about that admiration of Franco that others stated. You fit that group almost perfectly. The only area where you don't would be that, to your credit, you don't express any race or homophobic views.
Well given an actual former Fascist is polling 47% in the French election runoff polls later this month and Trump, frequently called a Fascist got 46% in 2016 and 47% in 2020 in the US election and the President of Russia has just invaded his neighbour one could say there is a fair amount of Fascism about again now. Some have also called Bolsonaro, the President of Italy and Salvini, the main right of centre leader in Italy, Fascists. However I am a conservative not a Fascist
If you are a conservative why are you such a fan of a PM who has more in common with the Revolutionary Communist Party than Ken Clarke or Phillip Hammond?
At best you are an extreme Conservative party loyalist (which is quite different from conservative), but from your posting it seems reasonable to assume you at least admire many fascists, and are happy to adopt their style of politics, even if you do not want the same outcomes.
It is of course common practice now for many on the left or liberal spectrum to call anyone further right of Ken Clarke or David Cameron a Fascist. In which case 43% of the country are Fascists given they voted for Boris in 2019. I of course did vote for May's Tories over Farage in the 2019 European elections unlike some on here.
However given Labour voters in 2019 and 2017 voted for a near Communist with plenty of anti Semitic supporters you don't really have a great deal of moral high ground on this
You really don't get it, do you? It is not about being left or right. Steve Baker or David Davis are both significantly to the right of Clarke or Cameron but have a very different approach, and are in no sense fascists.
They don't want to take us back to the glorious 1950s. They do not view dissent as treason. They don't drone on about past wars. They can think for themselves rather than rely on the "will of the people".
Steve Baker and David Davis are extreme libertarians, quite often more than they are conservatives.
Hence liberals might like some of their views in a way they cannot tolerate the views of traditional conservatives, hence they call them 'Fascists'.
Of course driving traditional conservatives in this way out of mainstream debate is the quickest way to expand support for those who genuinely are Fascists
You genuinely are a fascist. Although you share many of the same views as Tory MPs, nearly all of them do NOT share your views that fall into the fascist camp.
Let me give you another example. Nigel Farage is to the right of the Tories but I wouldn't call him a fascist, although he is pushing the boundaries sometime.
You won't because it wouldn't help you win your tedious argument as to why you have to call me a Fascist, that is all.
Well I can prove that wrong because it was discussed the other day and I said so then. I can find the reference if you wish. Not doing very well in this argument are you,?
You started this argument by resorting to abuse, not me.
You are clearly not going to withdraw your allegation so why should I care, it says more about you than me
How did I abuse you? I said you were a fascist. Your views put you in that politic grouping. I don't approve of fascists but it is a valid political group.
The fact that you can't recognise that is the group you belong to isn't my problem. Try asking others here where they think you fit.
Well it is attitudes of liberals like you that actually will expand Fascism.
If traditional conservatives like me end up being branded as 'Fascists' by the likes of you very soon we will have our own Trump or Le Pen as you drive decent conservatives towards the extreme right. You certainly will not like the results of the Fascist government we get then. Then it really will make Boris and me look liberal!
We have covered this already. I might not agree with traditional Tories but I don't call them fascists because they are not. Your views go way beyond traditional conservatism. I and others have already listed out areas where you are different.
Much as I disapprove of Boris he is not a Fascist. You are.
And as I said your attitudes will bring forward the day we do have a genuine Fascist government and you will not like the results
Tell me how your views differ from fascism then? I'll give you, that to your credit, you don't have any racist or homophobic views, so I'm knocking that one off.
For crying out loud you think Russia is a democracy. It isn't.
Wait until we had a genuine Fascist government, under which you would likely be interned or worse. Then you would find out
Dangerously close to threatening people. I know you think this sort of thing is funny, but less is more.
Kjh called me a Fascist completely unprovoked this evening.
He should accept the consequences of his actions and he is exactly the type of person who would be dealt with by a Fascist government as an enemy of the State.
It wasn't unprovoked. You wanted to censor the free press. And it wasn't an insult because you are. The fact that you don't recognize what you are isn't my problem. Also I wasn't offended by your post. You are completely correct I would be dealt with by a fascist state. No doubt you approve.
No, I wanted them not to give a propaganda sheet for the Argentine Minister by allowing him to write an entire article calling them 'Las Malvinas' not the Falkland Islands. For which you decided the most appropriate response was to call me a Fascist!
A lot of words for saying you wanted to censor it. In addition I made clear that it was not just this . I made a list of your fascist tendencies to which others kindly added others to the list. You sound embarrassed that you have these views and so you should be.
Has there ever been a more pointless war than Putin's on Ukraine?
I'm sure there must in the long history of war but can't be recent.
Iraq
The Great War (first)
Yemen
Afghanistan
Tibet
Take your pick. The list is endless.
The war isn't pointless as far as the Russians are concerned. They misjudged it and didn't plan it out very well - but they haven't lost the war. They will probably end up gaining territory.
The ridiculous spectacle of PB arguing whether @hyufd from Epping is a fascist when we have actual Fascism slaughtering thousands of Europeans RIGHT NOW, presaging all out global war
Get a grip. Everyone
The polemicist who wrote this wants the rest of us to “get a grip”:
“I understand your pain. When asked, the brave Brits, especially the noble English, said Yes, we want to be independent. Give us our freedom from Brussels
Whereas the Scots, when asked the same question, said, NO, we’d like stay a colony of England, thanks
It must hurt every day”
What was it you were saying about nursing grudges? How long have you been saving that?
Not saved at all. It was in the neighbouring Safari window to the one I’m using and I happened to click on it thinking it was this one. You are a suspicious soul.
Nasty Sean quotes are hardly rare. We have a couple of decades of frothing madness to mine.
Finland’s PM Sanna Marin said today that Finland must make a decision on NATO membership this spring.
Speaking to SDP party delegates, she said it’s time to seriously reconsider Finland’s stance on NATO and that she will reveal her position in the coming weeks.
Any doctors in the house? I've been prescribed doxycycline for an infection, finding it's giving me a bit of nausea. Been advised taking it with a meal will help but reduce the effectiveness. Is this a significant drop or will I be okay?
@HYUFD having been away and just read the end of the last thread it is also not edifying that having got 2 things of no importance whatsoever wrong you can't admit it. You specifically said a restaurant had a Michelin star and one had to go through Essex on a trip you defined. Neither were correct. You then moved the goal posts on both.
What is wrong with you that you can never admit you are wrong even on trivia?
I really don't care, this is a politics blog not Mastermind. However I will admit I was not exactly right if that makes you happy.
Still does not give you the right to call me a Fascist!
Neither do I buy you seem to as you will bang on and on trying to defend an obvious error.
I have every right to call you a fascist because that is what your views imply. I forgot about that admiration of Franco that others stated. You fit that group almost perfectly. The only area where you don't would be that, to your credit, you don't express any race or homophobic views.
Well given an actual former Fascist is polling 47% in the French election runoff polls later this month and Trump, frequently called a Fascist got 46% in 2016 and 47% in 2020 in the US election and the President of Russia has just invaded his neighbour one could say there is a fair amount of Fascism about again now. Some have also called Bolsonaro, the President of Italy and Salvini, the main right of centre leader in Italy, Fascists. However I am a conservative not a Fascist
If you are a conservative why are you such a fan of a PM who has more in common with the Revolutionary Communist Party than Ken Clarke or Phillip Hammond?
At best you are an extreme Conservative party loyalist (which is quite different from conservative), but from your posting it seems reasonable to assume you at least admire many fascists, and are happy to adopt their style of politics, even if you do not want the same outcomes.
It is of course common practice now for many on the left or liberal spectrum to call anyone further right of Ken Clarke or David Cameron a Fascist. In which case 43% of the country are Fascists given they voted for Boris in 2019. I of course did vote for May's Tories over Farage in the 2019 European elections unlike some on here.
However given Labour voters in 2019 and 2017 voted for a near Communist with plenty of anti Semitic supporters you don't really have a great deal of moral high ground on this
You really don't get it, do you? It is not about being left or right. Steve Baker or David Davis are both significantly to the right of Clarke or Cameron but have a very different approach, and are in no sense fascists.
They don't want to take us back to the glorious 1950s. They do not view dissent as treason. They don't drone on about past wars. They can think for themselves rather than rely on the "will of the people".
Steve Baker and David Davis are extreme libertarians, quite often more than they are conservatives.
Hence liberals might like some of their views in a way they cannot tolerate the views of traditional conservatives, hence they call them 'Fascists'.
Of course driving traditional conservatives in this way out of mainstream debate is the quickest way to expand support for those who genuinely are Fascists
You genuinely are a fascist. Although you share many of the same views as Tory MPs, nearly all of them do NOT share your views that fall into the fascist camp.
Let me give you another example. Nigel Farage is to the right of the Tories but I wouldn't call him a fascist, although he is pushing the boundaries sometime.
You won't because it wouldn't help you win your tedious argument as to why you have to call me a Fascist, that is all.
Well I can prove that wrong because it was discussed the other day and I said so then. I can find the reference if you wish. Not doing very well in this argument are you,?
You started this argument by resorting to abuse, not me.
You are clearly not going to withdraw your allegation so why should I care, it says more about you than me
How did I abuse you? I said you were a fascist. Your views put you in that politic grouping. I don't approve of fascists but it is a valid political group.
The fact that you can't recognise that is the group you belong to isn't my problem. Try asking others here where they think you fit.
Well it is attitudes of liberals like you that actually will expand Fascism.
If traditional conservatives like me end up being branded as 'Fascists' by the likes of you very soon we will have our own Trump or Le Pen as you drive decent conservatives towards the extreme right. You certainly will not like the results of the Fascist government we get then. Then it really will make Boris and me look liberal!
We have covered this already. I might not agree with traditional Tories but I don't call them fascists because they are not. Your views go way beyond traditional conservatism. I and others have already listed out areas where you are different.
Much as I disapprove of Boris he is not a Fascist. You are.
And as I said your attitudes will bring forward the day we do have a genuine Fascist government and you will not like the results
Tell me how your views differ from fascism then? I'll give you, that to your credit, you don't have any racist or homophobic views, so I'm knocking that one off.
For crying out loud you think Russia is a democracy. It isn't.
Wait until we had a genuine Fascist government, under which you would likely be interned or worse. Then you would find out
Dangerously close to threatening people. I know you think this sort of thing is funny, but less is more.
Kjh called me a Fascist completely unprovoked this evening.
He should accept the consequences of his actions and he is exactly the type of person who would be dealt with by a Fascist government as an enemy of the State.
It wasn't unprovoked. You wanted to censor the free press. And it wasn't an insult because you are. The fact that you don't recognize what you are isn't my problem. Also I wasn't offended by your post. You are completely correct I would be dealt with by a fascist state. No doubt you approve.
No, I wanted them not to give a propaganda sheet for the Argentine Minister by allowing him to write an entire article calling them 'Las Malvinas' not the Falkland Islands. For which you decided the most appropriate response was to call me a Fascist!
A lot of words for saying you wanted to censor it. In addition I made clear that it was not just this . I made a list of your fascist tendencies to which others kindly added others to the list. You sound embarrassed that you have these views and so you should be.
I am not embarrassed by my views and I am certainly not going to modify them to appease you, even if you do decide to keep calling me a Fascist
Finland’s PM Sanna Marin said today that Finland must make a decision on NATO membership this spring.
Speaking to SDP party delegates, she said it’s time to seriously reconsider Finland’s stance on NATO and that she will reveal her position in the coming weeks.
@HYUFD having been away and just read the end of the last thread it is also not edifying that having got 2 things of no importance whatsoever wrong you can't admit it. You specifically said a restaurant had a Michelin star and one had to go through Essex on a trip you defined. Neither were correct. You then moved the goal posts on both.
What is wrong with you that you can never admit you are wrong even on trivia?
I really don't care, this is a politics blog not Mastermind. However I will admit I was not exactly right if that makes you happy.
Still does not give you the right to call me a Fascist!
Neither do I buy you seem to as you will bang on and on trying to defend an obvious error.
I have every right to call you a fascist because that is what your views imply. I forgot about that admiration of Franco that others stated. You fit that group almost perfectly. The only area where you don't would be that, to your credit, you don't express any race or homophobic views.
Well given an actual former Fascist is polling 47% in the French election runoff polls later this month and Trump, frequently called a Fascist got 46% in 2016 and 47% in 2020 in the US election and the President of Russia has just invaded his neighbour one could say there is a fair amount of Fascism about again now. Some have also called Bolsonaro, the President of Italy and Salvini, the main right of centre leader in Italy, Fascists. However I am a conservative not a Fascist
If you are a conservative why are you such a fan of a PM who has more in common with the Revolutionary Communist Party than Ken Clarke or Phillip Hammond?
At best you are an extreme Conservative party loyalist (which is quite different from conservative), but from your posting it seems reasonable to assume you at least admire many fascists, and are happy to adopt their style of politics, even if you do not want the same outcomes.
It is of course common practice now for many on the left or liberal spectrum to call anyone further right of Ken Clarke or David Cameron a Fascist. In which case 43% of the country are Fascists given they voted for Boris in 2019. I of course did vote for May's Tories over Farage in the 2019 European elections unlike some on here.
However given Labour voters in 2019 and 2017 voted for a near Communist with plenty of anti Semitic supporters you don't really have a great deal of moral high ground on this
You really don't get it, do you? It is not about being left or right. Steve Baker or David Davis are both significantly to the right of Clarke or Cameron but have a very different approach, and are in no sense fascists.
They don't want to take us back to the glorious 1950s. They do not view dissent as treason. They don't drone on about past wars. They can think for themselves rather than rely on the "will of the people".
Steve Baker and David Davis are extreme libertarians, quite often more than they are conservatives.
Hence liberals might like some of their views in a way they cannot tolerate the views of traditional conservatives, hence they call them 'Fascists'.
Of course driving traditional conservatives in this way out of mainstream debate is the quickest way to expand support for those who genuinely are Fascists
You genuinely are a fascist. Although you share many of the same views as Tory MPs, nearly all of them do NOT share your views that fall into the fascist camp.
Let me give you another example. Nigel Farage is to the right of the Tories but I wouldn't call him a fascist, although he is pushing the boundaries sometime.
You won't because it wouldn't help you win your tedious argument as to why you have to call me a Fascist, that is all.
Well I can prove that wrong because it was discussed the other day and I said so then. I can find the reference if you wish. Not doing very well in this argument are you,?
You started this argument by resorting to abuse, not me.
You are clearly not going to withdraw your allegation so why should I care, it says more about you than me
How did I abuse you? I said you were a fascist. Your views put you in that politic grouping. I don't approve of fascists but it is a valid political group.
The fact that you can't recognise that is the group you belong to isn't my problem. Try asking others here where they think you fit.
Well it is attitudes of liberals like you that actually will expand Fascism.
If traditional conservatives like me end up being branded as 'Fascists' by the likes of you very soon we will have our own Trump or Le Pen as you drive decent conservatives towards the extreme right. You certainly will not like the results of the Fascist government we get then. Then it really will make Boris and me look liberal!
We have covered this already. I might not agree with traditional Tories but I don't call them fascists because they are not. Your views go way beyond traditional conservatism. I and others have already listed out areas where you are different.
Much as I disapprove of Boris he is not a Fascist. You are.
And as I said your attitudes will bring forward the day we do have a genuine Fascist government and you will not like the results
Tell me how your views differ from fascism then? I'll give you, that to your credit, you don't have any racist or homophobic views, so I'm knocking that one off.
For crying out loud you think Russia is a democracy. It isn't.
Wait until we had a genuine Fascist government, under which you would likely be interned or worse. Then you would find out
Dangerously close to threatening people. I know you think this sort of thing is funny, but less is more.
Is conjuring restless ghost of Sir Oswald Mosley copycatting Adolf Hitler, a step up OR down from channeling turbulent spirit of Madame de Krüdener urging on Alexander I?
The very question being asked at this moment on the Clapham omnibus.
@HYUFD having been away and just read the end of the last thread it is also not edifying that having got 2 things of no importance whatsoever wrong you can't admit it. You specifically said a restaurant had a Michelin star and one had to go through Essex on a trip you defined. Neither were correct. You then moved the goal posts on both.
What is wrong with you that you can never admit you are wrong even on trivia?
I really don't care, this is a politics blog not Mastermind. However I will admit I was not exactly right if that makes you happy.
Still does not give you the right to call me a Fascist!
Neither do I buy you seem to as you will bang on and on trying to defend an obvious error.
I have every right to call you a fascist because that is what your views imply. I forgot about that admiration of Franco that others stated. You fit that group almost perfectly. The only area where you don't would be that, to your credit, you don't express any race or homophobic views.
Well given an actual former Fascist is polling 47% in the French election runoff polls later this month and Trump, frequently called a Fascist got 46% in 2016 and 47% in 2020 in the US election and the President of Russia has just invaded his neighbour one could say there is a fair amount of Fascism about again now. Some have also called Bolsonaro, the President of Italy and Salvini, the main right of centre leader in Italy, Fascists. However I am a conservative not a Fascist
If you are a conservative why are you such a fan of a PM who has more in common with the Revolutionary Communist Party than Ken Clarke or Phillip Hammond?
At best you are an extreme Conservative party loyalist (which is quite different from conservative), but from your posting it seems reasonable to assume you at least admire many fascists, and are happy to adopt their style of politics, even if you do not want the same outcomes.
It is of course common practice now for many on the left or liberal spectrum to call anyone further right of Ken Clarke or David Cameron a Fascist. In which case 43% of the country are Fascists given they voted for Boris in 2019. I of course did vote for May's Tories over Farage in the 2019 European elections unlike some on here.
However given Labour voters in 2019 and 2017 voted for a near Communist with plenty of anti Semitic supporters you don't really have a great deal of moral high ground on this
You really don't get it, do you? It is not about being left or right. Steve Baker or David Davis are both significantly to the right of Clarke or Cameron but have a very different approach, and are in no sense fascists.
They don't want to take us back to the glorious 1950s. They do not view dissent as treason. They don't drone on about past wars. They can think for themselves rather than rely on the "will of the people".
Steve Baker and David Davis are extreme libertarians, quite often more than they are conservatives.
Hence liberals might like some of their views in a way they cannot tolerate the views of traditional conservatives, hence they call them 'Fascists'.
Of course driving traditional conservatives in this way out of mainstream debate is the quickest way to expand support for those who genuinely are Fascists
You genuinely are a fascist. Although you share many of the same views as Tory MPs, nearly all of them do NOT share your views that fall into the fascist camp.
Let me give you another example. Nigel Farage is to the right of the Tories but I wouldn't call him a fascist, although he is pushing the boundaries sometime.
You won't because it wouldn't help you win your tedious argument as to why you have to call me a Fascist, that is all.
Well I can prove that wrong because it was discussed the other day and I said so then. I can find the reference if you wish. Not doing very well in this argument are you,?
You started this argument by resorting to abuse, not me.
You are clearly not going to withdraw your allegation so why should I care, it says more about you than me
How did I abuse you? I said you were a fascist. Your views put you in that politic grouping. I don't approve of fascists but it is a valid political group.
The fact that you can't recognise that is the group you belong to isn't my problem. Try asking others here where they think you fit.
Well it is attitudes of liberals like you that actually will expand Fascism.
If traditional conservatives like me end up being branded as 'Fascists' by the likes of you very soon we will have our own Trump or Le Pen as you drive decent conservatives towards the extreme right. You certainly will not like the results of the Fascist government we get then. Then it really will make Boris and me look liberal!
We have covered this already. I might not agree with traditional Tories but I don't call them fascists because they are not. Your views go way beyond traditional conservatism. I and others have already listed out areas where you are different.
Much as I disapprove of Boris he is not a Fascist. You are.
And as I said your attitudes will bring forward the day we do have a genuine Fascist government and you will not like the results
Tell me how your views differ from fascism then? I'll give you, that to your credit, you don't have any racist or homophobic views, so I'm knocking that one off.
For crying out loud you think Russia is a democracy. It isn't.
Wait until we had a genuine Fascist government, under which you would likely be interned or worse. Then you would find out
Dangerously close to threatening people. I know you think this sort of thing is funny, but less is more.
Kjh called me a Fascist completely unprovoked this evening.
He should accept the consequences of his actions and he is exactly the type of person who would be dealt with by a Fascist government as an enemy of the State.
It wasn't unprovoked. You wanted to censor the free press. And it wasn't an insult because you are. The fact that you don't recognize what you are isn't my problem. Also I wasn't offended by your post. You are completely correct I would be dealt with by a fascist state. No doubt you approve.
No, I wanted them not to give a propaganda sheet for the Argentine Minister by allowing him to write an entire article calling them 'Las Malvinas' not the Falkland Islands. For which you decided the most appropriate response was to call me a Fascist!
A lot of words for saying you wanted to censor it. In addition I made clear that it was not just this . I made a list of your fascist tendencies to which others kindly added others to the list. You sound embarrassed that you have these views and so you should be.
I am not embarrassed by my views and I am certainly not going to modify them to appease you, even if you do decide to keep calling me a Fascist
Just out of interest do you think Russia is a democracy (as you have said) or a fascist state?
@HYUFD having been away and just read the end of the last thread it is also not edifying that having got 2 things of no importance whatsoever wrong you can't admit it. You specifically said a restaurant had a Michelin star and one had to go through Essex on a trip you defined. Neither were correct. You then moved the goal posts on both.
What is wrong with you that you can never admit you are wrong even on trivia?
I really don't care, this is a politics blog not Mastermind. However I will admit I was not exactly right if that makes you happy.
Still does not give you the right to call me a Fascist!
Neither do I buy you seem to as you will bang on and on trying to defend an obvious error.
I have every right to call you a fascist because that is what your views imply. I forgot about that admiration of Franco that others stated. You fit that group almost perfectly. The only area where you don't would be that, to your credit, you don't express any race or homophobic views.
Well given an actual former Fascist is polling 47% in the French election runoff polls later this month and Trump, frequently called a Fascist got 46% in 2016 and 47% in 2020 in the US election and the President of Russia has just invaded his neighbour one could say there is a fair amount of Fascism about again now. Some have also called Bolsonaro, the President of Italy and Salvini, the main right of centre leader in Italy, Fascists. However I am a conservative not a Fascist
If you are a conservative why are you such a fan of a PM who has more in common with the Revolutionary Communist Party than Ken Clarke or Phillip Hammond?
At best you are an extreme Conservative party loyalist (which is quite different from conservative), but from your posting it seems reasonable to assume you at least admire many fascists, and are happy to adopt their style of politics, even if you do not want the same outcomes.
It is of course common practice now for many on the left or liberal spectrum to call anyone further right of Ken Clarke or David Cameron a Fascist. In which case 43% of the country are Fascists given they voted for Boris in 2019. I of course did vote for May's Tories over Farage in the 2019 European elections unlike some on here.
However given Labour voters in 2019 and 2017 voted for a near Communist with plenty of anti Semitic supporters you don't really have a great deal of moral high ground on this
You really don't get it, do you? It is not about being left or right. Steve Baker or David Davis are both significantly to the right of Clarke or Cameron but have a very different approach, and are in no sense fascists.
They don't want to take us back to the glorious 1950s. They do not view dissent as treason. They don't drone on about past wars. They can think for themselves rather than rely on the "will of the people".
Steve Baker and David Davis are extreme libertarians, quite often more than they are conservatives.
Hence liberals might like some of their views in a way they cannot tolerate the views of traditional conservatives, hence they call them 'Fascists'.
Of course driving traditional conservatives in this way out of mainstream debate is the quickest way to expand support for those who genuinely are Fascists
You genuinely are a fascist. Although you share many of the same views as Tory MPs, nearly all of them do NOT share your views that fall into the fascist camp.
Let me give you another example. Nigel Farage is to the right of the Tories but I wouldn't call him a fascist, although he is pushing the boundaries sometime.
You won't because it wouldn't help you win your tedious argument as to why you have to call me a Fascist, that is all.
Well I can prove that wrong because it was discussed the other day and I said so then. I can find the reference if you wish. Not doing very well in this argument are you,?
You started this argument by resorting to abuse, not me.
You are clearly not going to withdraw your allegation so why should I care, it says more about you than me
How did I abuse you? I said you were a fascist. Your views put you in that politic grouping. I don't approve of fascists but it is a valid political group.
The fact that you can't recognise that is the group you belong to isn't my problem. Try asking others here where they think you fit.
Well it is attitudes of liberals like you that actually will expand Fascism.
If traditional conservatives like me end up being branded as 'Fascists' by the likes of you very soon we will have our own Trump or Le Pen as you drive decent conservatives towards the extreme right. You certainly will not like the results of the Fascist government we get then. Then it really will make Boris and me look liberal!
We have covered this already. I might not agree with traditional Tories but I don't call them fascists because they are not. Your views go way beyond traditional conservatism. I and others have already listed out areas where you are different.
Much as I disapprove of Boris he is not a Fascist. You are.
And as I said your attitudes will bring forward the day we do have a genuine Fascist government and you will not like the results
Tell me how your views differ from fascism then? I'll give you, that to your credit, you don't have any racist or homophobic views, so I'm knocking that one off.
For crying out loud you think Russia is a democracy. It isn't.
Wait until we had a genuine Fascist government, under which you would likely be interned or worse. Then you would find out
Dangerously close to threatening people. I know you think this sort of thing is funny, but less is more.
Kjh called me a Fascist completely unprovoked this evening.
He should accept the consequences of his actions and he is exactly the type of person who would be dealt with by a Fascist government as an enemy of the State.
It wasn't unprovoked. You wanted to censor the free press. And it wasn't an insult because you are. The fact that you don't recognize what you are isn't my problem. Also I wasn't offended by your post. You are completely correct I would be dealt with by a fascist state. No doubt you approve.
I really hope I would be a person who would need to be dealt with by a fascist state. I sometimes worry I would find an excuse to keep my head down.
Very clear that HYUFD would be an enthusiastic participant in crushing dissent.
@HYUFD having been away and just read the end of the last thread it is also not edifying that having got 2 things of no importance whatsoever wrong you can't admit it. You specifically said a restaurant had a Michelin star and one had to go through Essex on a trip you defined. Neither were correct. You then moved the goal posts on both.
What is wrong with you that you can never admit you are wrong even on trivia?
I really don't care, this is a politics blog not Mastermind. However I will admit I was not exactly right if that makes you happy.
Still does not give you the right to call me a Fascist!
Neither do I buy you seem to as you will bang on and on trying to defend an obvious error.
I have every right to call you a fascist because that is what your views imply. I forgot about that admiration of Franco that others stated. You fit that group almost perfectly. The only area where you don't would be that, to your credit, you don't express any race or homophobic views.
Well given an actual former Fascist is polling 47% in the French election runoff polls later this month and Trump, frequently called a Fascist got 46% in 2016 and 47% in 2020 in the US election and the President of Russia has just invaded his neighbour one could say there is a fair amount of Fascism about again now. Some have also called Bolsonaro, the President of Italy and Salvini, the main right of centre leader in Italy, Fascists. However I am a conservative not a Fascist
If you are a conservative why are you such a fan of a PM who has more in common with the Revolutionary Communist Party than Ken Clarke or Phillip Hammond?
At best you are an extreme Conservative party loyalist (which is quite different from conservative), but from your posting it seems reasonable to assume you at least admire many fascists, and are happy to adopt their style of politics, even if you do not want the same outcomes.
It is of course common practice now for many on the left or liberal spectrum to call anyone further right of Ken Clarke or David Cameron a Fascist. In which case 43% of the country are Fascists given they voted for Boris in 2019. I of course did vote for May's Tories over Farage in the 2019 European elections unlike some on here.
However given Labour voters in 2019 and 2017 voted for a near Communist with plenty of anti Semitic supporters you don't really have a great deal of moral high ground on this
You really don't get it, do you? It is not about being left or right. Steve Baker or David Davis are both significantly to the right of Clarke or Cameron but have a very different approach, and are in no sense fascists.
They don't want to take us back to the glorious 1950s. They do not view dissent as treason. They don't drone on about past wars. They can think for themselves rather than rely on the "will of the people".
Steve Baker and David Davis are extreme libertarians, quite often more than they are conservatives.
Hence liberals might like some of their views in a way they cannot tolerate the views of traditional conservatives, hence they call them 'Fascists'.
Of course driving traditional conservatives in this way out of mainstream debate is the quickest way to expand support for those who genuinely are Fascists
You genuinely are a fascist. Although you share many of the same views as Tory MPs, nearly all of them do NOT share your views that fall into the fascist camp.
Let me give you another example. Nigel Farage is to the right of the Tories but I wouldn't call him a fascist, although he is pushing the boundaries sometime.
You won't because it wouldn't help you win your tedious argument as to why you have to call me a Fascist, that is all.
Well I can prove that wrong because it was discussed the other day and I said so then. I can find the reference if you wish. Not doing very well in this argument are you,?
You started this argument by resorting to abuse, not me.
You are clearly not going to withdraw your allegation so why should I care, it says more about you than me
How did I abuse you? I said you were a fascist. Your views put you in that politic grouping. I don't approve of fascists but it is a valid political group.
The fact that you can't recognise that is the group you belong to isn't my problem. Try asking others here where they think you fit.
Well it is attitudes of liberals like you that actually will expand Fascism.
If traditional conservatives like me end up being branded as 'Fascists' by the likes of you very soon we will have our own Trump or Le Pen as you drive decent conservatives towards the extreme right. You certainly will not like the results of the Fascist government we get then. Then it really will make Boris and me look liberal!
We have covered this already. I might not agree with traditional Tories but I don't call them fascists because they are not. Your views go way beyond traditional conservatism. I and others have already listed out areas where you are different.
Much as I disapprove of Boris he is not a Fascist. You are.
And as I said your attitudes will bring forward the day we do have a genuine Fascist government and you will not like the results
Tell me how your views differ from fascism then? I'll give you, that to your credit, you don't have any racist or homophobic views, so I'm knocking that one off.
For crying out loud you think Russia is a democracy. It isn't.
Wait until we had a genuine Fascist government, under which you would likely be interned or worse. Then you would find out
Dangerously close to threatening people. I know you think this sort of thing is funny, but less is more.
Kjh called me a Fascist completely unprovoked this evening.
He should accept the consequences of his actions and he is exactly the type of person who would be dealt with by a Fascist government as an enemy of the State.
It wasn't unprovoked. You wanted to censor the free press. And it wasn't an insult because you are. The fact that you don't recognize what you are isn't my problem. Also I wasn't offended by your post. You are completely correct I would be dealt with by a fascist state. No doubt you approve.
I really hope I would be a person who would need to be dealt with by a fascist state. I sometimes worry I would find an excuse to keep my head down.
Very clear that HYUFD would be an enthusiastic participant in crushing dissent.
@HYUFD having been away and just read the end of the last thread it is also not edifying that having got 2 things of no importance whatsoever wrong you can't admit it. You specifically said a restaurant had a Michelin star and one had to go through Essex on a trip you defined. Neither were correct. You then moved the goal posts on both.
What is wrong with you that you can never admit you are wrong even on trivia?
I really don't care, this is a politics blog not Mastermind. However I will admit I was not exactly right if that makes you happy.
Still does not give you the right to call me a Fascist!
Neither do I buy you seem to as you will bang on and on trying to defend an obvious error.
I have every right to call you a fascist because that is what your views imply. I forgot about that admiration of Franco that others stated. You fit that group almost perfectly. The only area where you don't would be that, to your credit, you don't express any race or homophobic views.
Well given an actual former Fascist is polling 47% in the French election runoff polls later this month and Trump, frequently called a Fascist got 46% in 2016 and 47% in 2020 in the US election and the President of Russia has just invaded his neighbour one could say there is a fair amount of Fascism about again now. Some have also called Bolsonaro, the President of Italy and Salvini, the main right of centre leader in Italy, Fascists. However I am a conservative not a Fascist
If you are a conservative why are you such a fan of a PM who has more in common with the Revolutionary Communist Party than Ken Clarke or Phillip Hammond?
At best you are an extreme Conservative party loyalist (which is quite different from conservative), but from your posting it seems reasonable to assume you at least admire many fascists, and are happy to adopt their style of politics, even if you do not want the same outcomes.
It is of course common practice now for many on the left or liberal spectrum to call anyone further right of Ken Clarke or David Cameron a Fascist. In which case 43% of the country are Fascists given they voted for Boris in 2019. I of course did vote for May's Tories over Farage in the 2019 European elections unlike some on here.
However given Labour voters in 2019 and 2017 voted for a near Communist with plenty of anti Semitic supporters you don't really have a great deal of moral high ground on this
You really don't get it, do you? It is not about being left or right. Steve Baker or David Davis are both significantly to the right of Clarke or Cameron but have a very different approach, and are in no sense fascists.
They don't want to take us back to the glorious 1950s. They do not view dissent as treason. They don't drone on about past wars. They can think for themselves rather than rely on the "will of the people".
Steve Baker and David Davis are extreme libertarians, quite often more than they are conservatives.
Hence liberals might like some of their views in a way they cannot tolerate the views of traditional conservatives, hence they call them 'Fascists'.
Of course driving traditional conservatives in this way out of mainstream debate is the quickest way to expand support for those who genuinely are Fascists
You genuinely are a fascist. Although you share many of the same views as Tory MPs, nearly all of them do NOT share your views that fall into the fascist camp.
Let me give you another example. Nigel Farage is to the right of the Tories but I wouldn't call him a fascist, although he is pushing the boundaries sometime.
You won't because it wouldn't help you win your tedious argument as to why you have to call me a Fascist, that is all.
Well I can prove that wrong because it was discussed the other day and I said so then. I can find the reference if you wish. Not doing very well in this argument are you,?
You started this argument by resorting to abuse, not me.
You are clearly not going to withdraw your allegation so why should I care, it says more about you than me
How did I abuse you? I said you were a fascist. Your views put you in that politic grouping. I don't approve of fascists but it is a valid political group.
The fact that you can't recognise that is the group you belong to isn't my problem. Try asking others here where they think you fit.
Well it is attitudes of liberals like you that actually will expand Fascism.
If traditional conservatives like me end up being branded as 'Fascists' by the likes of you very soon we will have our own Trump or Le Pen as you drive decent conservatives towards the extreme right. You certainly will not like the results of the Fascist government we get then. Then it really will make Boris and me look liberal!
We have covered this already. I might not agree with traditional Tories but I don't call them fascists because they are not. Your views go way beyond traditional conservatism. I and others have already listed out areas where you are different.
Much as I disapprove of Boris he is not a Fascist. You are.
And as I said your attitudes will bring forward the day we do have a genuine Fascist government and you will not like the results
Tell me how your views differ from fascism then? I'll give you, that to your credit, you don't have any racist or homophobic views, so I'm knocking that one off.
For crying out loud you think Russia is a democracy. It isn't.
Wait until we had a genuine Fascist government, under which you would likely be interned or worse. Then you would find out
Dangerously close to threatening people. I know you think this sort of thing is funny, but less is more.
Kjh called me a Fascist completely unprovoked this evening.
He should accept the consequences of his actions and he is exactly the type of person who would be dealt with by a Fascist government as an enemy of the State.
It wasn't unprovoked. You wanted to censor the free press. And it wasn't an insult because you are. The fact that you don't recognize what you are isn't my problem. Also I wasn't offended by your post. You are completely correct I would be dealt with by a fascist state. No doubt you approve.
I really hope I would be a person who would need to be dealt with by a fascist state. I sometimes worry I would find an excuse to keep my head down.
Very clear that HYUFD would be an enthusiastic participant in crushing dissent.
Pretty convincing allegations that Russian soldiers found 5 Ukrainian girls, stripped them, raped them, shot them, then tried to conceal the evidence by burning their bodies on tyres. By a road. They failed to destroy the “evidence”
I shan’t link. It’s out there
This is now a purely Fascist army, out of control. Yet backed by 80% of its people
I’m not sure how this ends without a final showdown with Russia, and the extinction of Russia. Or all of us
No one wants this, but it seems near inevitable
One thing we can do - short of that - is tighten the sanctions enormously. Refuse Russian oil and gas. Deal with the consequences
The same stuff has been troubling me. Its Wayne Couzens x 10000
However.... isn't this actually pretty normal in war? The difference being that this time it has all been recorded.
It seems to me like the most likely outcome is that Russia gets labelled a pariah state and is completely cancelled by the west, but it goes on doing its business with much of the rest of the world as before.
It just seems that, sadly, business is business and many countries don't see this conflict the way we do. They will be happy to go on dealing with Putin's Russia.
A mafia kleptocracy in which the leader stays in power for ever is what the governments of most non-western countries aspire to be.
@HYUFD and I do not always agree. Even though we are both to the right. HYUFD clearly comes from a wealthy middle/upper class background whereas I come from a poor background but I now have loads of money from my own efforts. So for instance I don't agree with HYUFD's 'entitlement' over inheritance. But he's not a fascist. Got it?
@HYUFD having been away and just read the end of the last thread it is also not edifying that having got 2 things of no importance whatsoever wrong you can't admit it. You specifically said a restaurant had a Michelin star and one had to go through Essex on a trip you defined. Neither were correct. You then moved the goal posts on both.
What is wrong with you that you can never admit you are wrong even on trivia?
I really don't care, this is a politics blog not Mastermind. However I will admit I was not exactly right if that makes you happy.
Still does not give you the right to call me a Fascist!
Neither do I buy you seem to as you will bang on and on trying to defend an obvious error.
I have every right to call you a fascist because that is what your views imply. I forgot about that admiration of Franco that others stated. You fit that group almost perfectly. The only area where you don't would be that, to your credit, you don't express any race or homophobic views.
Well given an actual former Fascist is polling 47% in the French election runoff polls later this month and Trump, frequently called a Fascist got 46% in 2016 and 47% in 2020 in the US election and the President of Russia has just invaded his neighbour one could say there is a fair amount of Fascism about again now. Some have also called Bolsonaro, the President of Italy and Salvini, the main right of centre leader in Italy, Fascists. However I am a conservative not a Fascist
If you are a conservative why are you such a fan of a PM who has more in common with the Revolutionary Communist Party than Ken Clarke or Phillip Hammond?
At best you are an extreme Conservative party loyalist (which is quite different from conservative), but from your posting it seems reasonable to assume you at least admire many fascists, and are happy to adopt their style of politics, even if you do not want the same outcomes.
It is of course common practice now for many on the left or liberal spectrum to call anyone further right of Ken Clarke or David Cameron a Fascist. In which case 43% of the country are Fascists given they voted for Boris in 2019. I of course did vote for May's Tories over Farage in the 2019 European elections unlike some on here.
However given Labour voters in 2019 and 2017 voted for a near Communist with plenty of anti Semitic supporters you don't really have a great deal of moral high ground on this
You really don't get it, do you? It is not about being left or right. Steve Baker or David Davis are both significantly to the right of Clarke or Cameron but have a very different approach, and are in no sense fascists.
They don't want to take us back to the glorious 1950s. They do not view dissent as treason. They don't drone on about past wars. They can think for themselves rather than rely on the "will of the people".
Steve Baker and David Davis are extreme libertarians, quite often more than they are conservatives.
Hence liberals might like some of their views in a way they cannot tolerate the views of traditional conservatives, hence they call them 'Fascists'.
Of course driving traditional conservatives in this way out of mainstream debate is the quickest way to expand support for those who genuinely are Fascists
But you and your party are not “traditional conservatives”.
The modern iteration of the Tory party:
- English Nationalist, not One Nation - Revolutionary, not Conservative - High tax/high debt, not Friedman - State control, not free market - Social engineering, not conservatism - Nasty, not paternal - Reactive, not confident - Populist, not principled - Clown, not competence - Degenerate, not moral - Cash for pals, not good governance - Fiscal spaffing, not fiscal moderation - Fuck business, not pro business - Proroguing parliament, not the rule of law - Lying to the monarch, not respecting institutions - Authoritarian, not liberal - Corruption, not ethics - Second jobs, not public service - Serving clients, not constituents - Peppa Pig, not promoting productivity - Cokeheads, not sober - Law-breakers, not law enforcers -Presidential system, not constitutional monarchy - Sovereign party, not sovereign parliament - Police fines, not clean sheets - Windrush disgrace, not Ukrainian solidarity
The only constants are the blue rosettes, greed and jingoism.
Much of that of course comes back to your side blocking Brexit.
Conservatism is also not automatically free market, indeed conservatives have often been pro tariff and pro protectionist not free trade.
Support for the free market and free trade is more a liberal trait than a conservative one
Hitler nursed the Versailles grudge.
Modern fascists nurse the Brexit grudge.
Brexit will *never* be over. The war will never be won. You are simultaneously victorious and tragic failures.
I rather think that over eggs brexiteers, to call them fascists. Brexit is globalist, rather than protectionist. It seeks trade and relations will all around the world, equally, not a closed shop in Europe. It seeks genuine free trade. How is any of that fascist? Brexit is over, what is next is the ever changing relationships with our European friends. Step away from political anoraks and most people have consigned Brexit to the finished pile. You can certainly argue that some conservatives want to keep it current, to keep the 2019 coalition in play, but I don’t think the public will buy.
Brexit promised protectionism and pull-up-the-drawbridge to those who wanted more protectionism and to pull-up-the-drawbridge.
Simultaneously, and shamelessly, it also offered free trade and more immigration to those who wanted more immigration and more free trade.
Brexit was whatever-the-fuck-you-wanted-it-to-be, right up until the point when the result came in.
At the end of the day, the brexiteers smashed the Cameronite consensus and @hyufd ‘s lot grabbed power.
I don’t believe Brexit offered protectionism. It anticipated free trade with Europe without the political side.
Breathtakingly naive to believe that trade policy is somehow a non-political issue. Thatcherism bred a generation of social and political incompetents.
Not what I said. Brexit aspires to free trade everywhere. The eu is a protectionist bloc. That’s their right.
I think it's a bit more complicated than that.
There were people who voted for Brexit because they felt the EU was a protectionist bloc, and they wanted more free trade.
There were people who voted for Brexit because they felt the EU was too free trade, and they wanted more protectionism.
There were people who voted for Brexit because they wanted less EU immigration.
And there were people who voted for Brexit because they felt democracy was diluted inside a big bloc.
Interesting interview with former Putin adviser Sergey Karaganov. He says Russia can't afford not to lose so some kind of escalation is likely, and thinks NATO Article 5 is worthless.
Finland’s PM Sanna Marin said today that Finland must make a decision on NATO membership this spring.
Speaking to SDP party delegates, she said it’s time to seriously reconsider Finland’s stance on NATO and that she will reveal her position in the coming weeks.
Meanwhile, in neighbouring Sweden, her sister Social Democrats are riding high in the polls on an anti-NATO membership platform.
Difference, surely, is that Finland shares such a long border with Russia and was historically ruled by the Tsar. Sweden much less vulnerable on all counts.
Pretty convincing allegations that Russian soldiers found 5 Ukrainian girls, stripped them, raped them, shot them, then tried to conceal the evidence by burning their bodies on tyres. By a road. They failed to destroy the “evidence”
I shan’t link. It’s out there
This is now a purely Fascist army, out of control. Yet backed by 80% of its people
I’m not sure how this ends without a final showdown with Russia, and the extinction of Russia. Or all of us
No one wants this, but it seems near inevitable
One thing we can do - short of that - is tighten the sanctions enormously. Refuse Russian oil and gas. Deal with the consequences
The same stuff has been troubling me. Its Wayne Couzens x 10000
However.... isn't this actually pretty normal in war? The difference being that this time it has all been recorded.
It seems to me like the most likely outcome is that Russia gets labelled a pariah state and is completely cancelled by the west, but it goes on doing its business with much of the rest of the world as before.
It just seems that, sadly, business is business and many countries don't see this conflict the way we do. They will be happy to go on dealing with Putin's Russia.
A mafia kleptocracy in which the leader stays in power for ever is what the governments of most non-western countries aspire to be.
A libertarian would say that's what all governments aspire to.
Finland’s PM Sanna Marin said today that Finland must make a decision on NATO membership this spring.
Speaking to SDP party delegates, she said it’s time to seriously reconsider Finland’s stance on NATO and that she will reveal her position in the coming weeks.
This debate has been going on for weeks now in Finland. Looks like there will be a referendum in the Spring. I think this is the PM setting up the position for an internal debate within the SDP on its stance. The interesting thing that she said is that NATO are open to Finland joining, and there is no opposition within the bloc.
As I understand it - whilst it would be difficult for Russia to invade Finland, and Finland is well prepared to fight a land war, it would be outnumbered in the air. So their best option for their security is through joining NATO.
@HYUFD having been away and just read the end of the last thread it is also not edifying that having got 2 things of no importance whatsoever wrong you can't admit it. You specifically said a restaurant had a Michelin star and one had to go through Essex on a trip you defined. Neither were correct. You then moved the goal posts on both.
What is wrong with you that you can never admit you are wrong even on trivia?
I really don't care, this is a politics blog not Mastermind. However I will admit I was not exactly right if that makes you happy.
Still does not give you the right to call me a Fascist!
Neither do I buy you seem to as you will bang on and on trying to defend an obvious error.
I have every right to call you a fascist because that is what your views imply. I forgot about that admiration of Franco that others stated. You fit that group almost perfectly. The only area where you don't would be that, to your credit, you don't express any race or homophobic views.
Well given an actual former Fascist is polling 47% in the French election runoff polls later this month and Trump, frequently called a Fascist got 46% in 2016 and 47% in 2020 in the US election and the President of Russia has just invaded his neighbour one could say there is a fair amount of Fascism about again now. Some have also called Bolsonaro, the President of Italy and Salvini, the main right of centre leader in Italy, Fascists. However I am a conservative not a Fascist
If you are a conservative why are you such a fan of a PM who has more in common with the Revolutionary Communist Party than Ken Clarke or Phillip Hammond?
At best you are an extreme Conservative party loyalist (which is quite different from conservative), but from your posting it seems reasonable to assume you at least admire many fascists, and are happy to adopt their style of politics, even if you do not want the same outcomes.
It is of course common practice now for many on the left or liberal spectrum to call anyone further right of Ken Clarke or David Cameron a Fascist. In which case 43% of the country are Fascists given they voted for Boris in 2019. I of course did vote for May's Tories over Farage in the 2019 European elections unlike some on here.
However given Labour voters in 2019 and 2017 voted for a near Communist with plenty of anti Semitic supporters you don't really have a great deal of moral high ground on this
You really don't get it, do you? It is not about being left or right. Steve Baker or David Davis are both significantly to the right of Clarke or Cameron but have a very different approach, and are in no sense fascists.
They don't want to take us back to the glorious 1950s. They do not view dissent as treason. They don't drone on about past wars. They can think for themselves rather than rely on the "will of the people".
Steve Baker and David Davis are extreme libertarians, quite often more than they are conservatives.
Hence liberals might like some of their views in a way they cannot tolerate the views of traditional conservatives, hence they call them 'Fascists'.
Of course driving traditional conservatives in this way out of mainstream debate is the quickest way to expand support for those who genuinely are Fascists
But you and your party are not “traditional conservatives”.
The modern iteration of the Tory party:
- English Nationalist, not One Nation - Revolutionary, not Conservative - High tax/high debt, not Friedman - State control, not free market - Social engineering, not conservatism - Nasty, not paternal - Reactive, not confident - Populist, not principled - Clown, not competence - Degenerate, not moral - Cash for pals, not good governance - Fiscal spaffing, not fiscal moderation - Fuck business, not pro business - Proroguing parliament, not the rule of law - Lying to the monarch, not respecting institutions - Authoritarian, not liberal - Corruption, not ethics - Second jobs, not public service - Serving clients, not constituents - Peppa Pig, not promoting productivity - Cokeheads, not sober - Law-breakers, not law enforcers -Presidential system, not constitutional monarchy - Sovereign party, not sovereign parliament - Police fines, not clean sheets - Windrush disgrace, not Ukrainian solidarity
The only constants are the blue rosettes, greed and jingoism.
Much of that of course comes back to your side blocking Brexit.
Conservatism is also not automatically free market, indeed conservatives have often been pro tariff and pro protectionist not free trade.
Support for the free market and free trade is more a liberal trait than a conservative one
Hitler nursed the Versailles grudge.
Modern fascists nurse the Brexit grudge.
Brexit will *never* be over. The war will never be won. You are simultaneously victorious and tragic failures.
I rather think that over eggs brexiteers, to call them fascists. Brexit is globalist, rather than protectionist. It seeks trade and relations will all around the world, equally, not a closed shop in Europe. It seeks genuine free trade. How is any of that fascist? Brexit is over, what is next is the ever changing relationships with our European friends. Step away from political anoraks and most people have consigned Brexit to the finished pile. You can certainly argue that some conservatives want to keep it current, to keep the 2019 coalition in play, but I don’t think the public will buy.
Brexit promised protectionism and pull-up-the-drawbridge to those who wanted more protectionism and to pull-up-the-drawbridge.
Simultaneously, and shamelessly, it also offered free trade and more immigration to those who wanted more immigration and more free trade.
Brexit was whatever-the-fuck-you-wanted-it-to-be, right up until the point when the result came in.
At the end of the day, the brexiteers smashed the Cameronite consensus and @hyufd ‘s lot grabbed power.
I don’t believe Brexit offered protectionism. It anticipated free trade with Europe without the political side.
Breathtakingly naive to believe that trade policy is somehow a non-political issue. Thatcherism bred a generation of social and political incompetents.
Not what I said. Brexit aspires to free trade everywhere. The eu is a protectionist bloc. That’s their right.
I think it's a bit more complicated than that.
There were people who voted for Brexit because they felt the EU was a protectionist bloc, and they wanted more free trade.
There were people who voted for Brexit because they felt the EU was too free trade, and they wanted more protectionism.
There were people who voted for Brexit because they wanted less EU immigration.
And there were people who voted for Brexit because they felt democracy was diluted inside a big bloc.
People had different motivations for their votes.
Asian leave voters were promised more Asian immigration;
@HYUFD having been away and just read the end of the last thread it is also not edifying that having got 2 things of no importance whatsoever wrong you can't admit it. You specifically said a restaurant had a Michelin star and one had to go through Essex on a trip you defined. Neither were correct. You then moved the goal posts on both.
What is wrong with you that you can never admit you are wrong even on trivia?
I really don't care, this is a politics blog not Mastermind. However I will admit I was not exactly right if that makes you happy.
Still does not give you the right to call me a Fascist!
Neither do I buy you seem to as you will bang on and on trying to defend an obvious error.
I have every right to call you a fascist because that is what your views imply. I forgot about that admiration of Franco that others stated. You fit that group almost perfectly. The only area where you don't would be that, to your credit, you don't express any race or homophobic views.
Well given an actual former Fascist is polling 47% in the French election runoff polls later this month and Trump, frequently called a Fascist got 46% in 2016 and 47% in 2020 in the US election and the President of Russia has just invaded his neighbour one could say there is a fair amount of Fascism about again now. Some have also called Bolsonaro, the President of Italy and Salvini, the main right of centre leader in Italy, Fascists. However I am a conservative not a Fascist
If you are a conservative why are you such a fan of a PM who has more in common with the Revolutionary Communist Party than Ken Clarke or Phillip Hammond?
At best you are an extreme Conservative party loyalist (which is quite different from conservative), but from your posting it seems reasonable to assume you at least admire many fascists, and are happy to adopt their style of politics, even if you do not want the same outcomes.
It is of course common practice now for many on the left or liberal spectrum to call anyone further right of Ken Clarke or David Cameron a Fascist. In which case 43% of the country are Fascists given they voted for Boris in 2019. I of course did vote for May's Tories over Farage in the 2019 European elections unlike some on here.
However given Labour voters in 2019 and 2017 voted for a near Communist with plenty of anti Semitic supporters you don't really have a great deal of moral high ground on this
You really don't get it, do you? It is not about being left or right. Steve Baker or David Davis are both significantly to the right of Clarke or Cameron but have a very different approach, and are in no sense fascists.
They don't want to take us back to the glorious 1950s. They do not view dissent as treason. They don't drone on about past wars. They can think for themselves rather than rely on the "will of the people".
Steve Baker and David Davis are extreme libertarians, quite often more than they are conservatives.
Hence liberals might like some of their views in a way they cannot tolerate the views of traditional conservatives, hence they call them 'Fascists'.
Of course driving traditional conservatives in this way out of mainstream debate is the quickest way to expand support for those who genuinely are Fascists
But you and your party are not “traditional conservatives”.
The modern iteration of the Tory party:
- English Nationalist, not One Nation - Revolutionary, not Conservative - High tax/high debt, not Friedman - State control, not free market - Social engineering, not conservatism - Nasty, not paternal - Reactive, not confident - Populist, not principled - Clown, not competence - Degenerate, not moral - Cash for pals, not good governance - Fiscal spaffing, not fiscal moderation - Fuck business, not pro business - Proroguing parliament, not the rule of law - Lying to the monarch, not respecting institutions - Authoritarian, not liberal - Corruption, not ethics - Second jobs, not public service - Serving clients, not constituents - Peppa Pig, not promoting productivity - Cokeheads, not sober - Law-breakers, not law enforcers -Presidential system, not constitutional monarchy - Sovereign party, not sovereign parliament - Police fines, not clean sheets - Windrush disgrace, not Ukrainian solidarity
The only constants are the blue rosettes, greed and jingoism.
Much of that of course comes back to your side blocking Brexit.
Conservatism is also not automatically free market, indeed conservatives have often been pro tariff and pro protectionist not free trade.
Support for the free market and free trade is more a liberal trait than a conservative one
Hitler nursed the Versailles grudge.
Modern fascists nurse the Brexit grudge.
Brexit will *never* be over. The war will never be won. You are simultaneously victorious and tragic failures.
I rather think that over eggs brexiteers, to call them fascists. Brexit is globalist, rather than protectionist. It seeks trade and relations will all around the world, equally, not a closed shop in Europe. It seeks genuine free trade. How is any of that fascist? Brexit is over, what is next is the ever changing relationships with our European friends. Step away from political anoraks and most people have consigned Brexit to the finished pile. You can certainly argue that some conservatives want to keep it current, to keep the 2019 coalition in play, but I don’t think the public will buy.
Brexit promised protectionism and pull-up-the-drawbridge to those who wanted more protectionism and to pull-up-the-drawbridge.
Simultaneously, and shamelessly, it also offered free trade and more immigration to those who wanted more immigration and more free trade.
Brexit was whatever-the-fuck-you-wanted-it-to-be, right up until the point when the result came in.
At the end of the day, the brexiteers smashed the Cameronite consensus and @hyufd ‘s lot grabbed power.
I don’t believe Brexit offered protectionism. It anticipated free trade with Europe without the political side.
Breathtakingly naive to believe that trade policy is somehow a non-political issue. Thatcherism bred a generation of social and political incompetents.
Not what I said. Brexit aspires to free trade everywhere. The eu is a protectionist bloc. That’s their right.
I mean, kind of but also kind of not. The 'intellectual leaders' of Brexit wanted a Singapore on the Thames. The Red Wallers wanted to power to stop international competition and were much more protectionist in outlook. I believe there was some polling on this. The more affluent Brexiteers wanted more free trade with the world, while the less affluent wanted more protection. I'll try dig it out.
You are indeed correct.
Though the 'we can trade for it' globalists idea of Singapore on Thames was based upon a fantasy of what Singapore is rather than the reality.
And the reality of the current world has rather killed the dreams of the globalists.
Pretty convincing allegations that Russian soldiers found 5 Ukrainian girls, stripped them, raped them, shot them, then tried to conceal the evidence by burning their bodies on tyres. By a road. They failed to destroy the “evidence”
I shan’t link. It’s out there
This is now a purely Fascist army, out of control. Yet backed by 80% of its people
I’m not sure how this ends without a final showdown with Russia, and the extinction of Russia. Or all of us
No one wants this, but it seems near inevitable
One thing we can do - short of that - is tighten the sanctions enormously. Refuse Russian oil and gas. Deal with the consequences
The same stuff has been troubling me. Its Wayne Couzens x 10000
However.... isn't this actually pretty normal in war? The difference being that this time it has all been recorded.
It seems to me like the most likely outcome is that Russia gets labelled a pariah state and is completely cancelled by the west, but it goes on doing its business with much of the rest of the world as before.
It just seems that, sadly, business is business and many countries don't see this conflict the way we do. They will be happy to go on dealing with Putin's Russia.
A mafia kleptocracy in which the leader stays in power for ever is what the governments of most non-western countries aspire to be.
A libertarian would say that's what all governments aspire to.
Perhaps, to varying extents.
But in western countries there are greater safeguards to it happening.
Pretty convincing allegations that Russian soldiers found 5 Ukrainian girls, stripped them, raped them, shot them, then tried to conceal the evidence by burning their bodies on tyres. By a road. They failed to destroy the “evidence”
I shan’t link. It’s out there
This is now a purely Fascist army, out of control. Yet backed by 80% of its people
I’m not sure how this ends without a final showdown with Russia, and the extinction of Russia. Or all of us
No one wants this, but it seems near inevitable
One thing we can do - short of that - is tighten the sanctions enormously. Refuse Russian oil and gas. Deal with the consequences
I'm not sure if its Fascist as such. Sounds to me like a lot of conscripts become berserkers. On drugs? Wound up by propaganda or cynical officers? Who knows.
But it certainly is a game-changer, as if Mariupol etc wasn't enough.
How can they negotiate peace, which means a compromise, with atrocities like this?
Any doctors in the house? I've been prescribed doxycycline for an infection, finding it's giving me a bit of nausea. Been advised taking it with a meal will help but reduce the effectiveness. Is this a significant drop or will I be okay?
You must have missed my reply this afternoon. There is no indication against taking doxycycline with food, in fact it’s recommended by the nhs. It will help with the nausea.
Pretty convincing allegations that Russian soldiers found 5 Ukrainian girls, stripped them, raped them, shot them, then tried to conceal the evidence by burning their bodies on tyres. By a road. They failed to destroy the “evidence”
I shan’t link. It’s out there
This is now a purely Fascist army, out of control. Yet backed by 80% of its people
I’m not sure how this ends without a final showdown with Russia, and the extinction of Russia. Or all of us
No one wants this, but it seems near inevitable
One thing we can do - short of that - is tighten the sanctions enormously. Refuse Russian oil and gas. Deal with the consequences
The same stuff has been troubling me. Its Wayne Couzens x 10000
However.... isn't this actually pretty normal in war? The difference being that this time it has all been recorded.
It seems to me like the most likely outcome is that Russia gets labelled a pariah state and is completely cancelled by the west, but it goes on doing its business with much of the rest of the world as before.
It just seems that, sadly, business is business and many countries don't see this conflict the way we do. They will be happy to go on dealing with Putin's Russia.
A mafia kleptocracy in which the leader stays in power for ever is what the governments of most non-western countries aspire to be.
To be fair, the leaders of some Western countries feel that way too. They're just usually constrained by democracy and the rule of law.
Any doctors in the house? I've been prescribed doxycycline for an infection, finding it's giving me a bit of nausea. Been advised taking it with a meal will help but reduce the effectiveness. Is this a significant drop or will I be okay?
Nausea is quite common with it, particularly if you lie down afterwards, so best taken when up and about. I take it as antimalarial at times.
Finland’s PM Sanna Marin said today that Finland must make a decision on NATO membership this spring.
Speaking to SDP party delegates, she said it’s time to seriously reconsider Finland’s stance on NATO and that she will reveal her position in the coming weeks.
If Finland Joins NATO, Sweden would effectively be freeriding in to bloc without any reciprocal obligations. It would be a bit like Ireland being able to rely on the UK for its defence because of its geographical position.
Finland’s PM Sanna Marin said today that Finland must make a decision on NATO membership this spring.
Speaking to SDP party delegates, she said it’s time to seriously reconsider Finland’s stance on NATO and that she will reveal her position in the coming weeks.
Meanwhile, in neighbouring Sweden, her sister Social Democrats are riding high in the polls on an anti-NATO membership platform.
Difference, surely, is that Finland shares such a long border with Russia and was historically ruled by the Tsar. Sweden much less vulnerable on all counts.
Both Finland and Sweden are democracies, and it is the respective electorates who will decide. Early doors, but the tentative early indications for the pro-NATO membership campaigners are poor.
Ironically, the Sweden Democrats abandoning their long-held hostility to NATO could be the kiss of death. As the pariahs of politics they make a pro-NATO coalition unlikely.
@HYUFD having been away and just read the end of the last thread it is also not edifying that having got 2 things of no importance whatsoever wrong you can't admit it. You specifically said a restaurant had a Michelin star and one had to go through Essex on a trip you defined. Neither were correct. You then moved the goal posts on both.
What is wrong with you that you can never admit you are wrong even on trivia?
I really don't care, this is a politics blog not Mastermind. However I will admit I was not exactly right if that makes you happy.
Still does not give you the right to call me a Fascist!
Neither do I buy you seem to as you will bang on and on trying to defend an obvious error.
I have every right to call you a fascist because that is what your views imply. I forgot about that admiration of Franco that others stated. You fit that group almost perfectly. The only area where you don't would be that, to your credit, you don't express any race or homophobic views.
Well given an actual former Fascist is polling 47% in the French election runoff polls later this month and Trump, frequently called a Fascist got 46% in 2016 and 47% in 2020 in the US election and the President of Russia has just invaded his neighbour one could say there is a fair amount of Fascism about again now. Some have also called Bolsonaro, the President of Italy and Salvini, the main right of centre leader in Italy, Fascists. However I am a conservative not a Fascist
If you are a conservative why are you such a fan of a PM who has more in common with the Revolutionary Communist Party than Ken Clarke or Phillip Hammond?
At best you are an extreme Conservative party loyalist (which is quite different from conservative), but from your posting it seems reasonable to assume you at least admire many fascists, and are happy to adopt their style of politics, even if you do not want the same outcomes.
It is of course common practice now for many on the left or liberal spectrum to call anyone further right of Ken Clarke or David Cameron a Fascist. In which case 43% of the country are Fascists given they voted for Boris in 2019. I of course did vote for May's Tories over Farage in the 2019 European elections unlike some on here.
However given Labour voters in 2019 and 2017 voted for a near Communist with plenty of anti Semitic supporters you don't really have a great deal of moral high ground on this
You really don't get it, do you? It is not about being left or right. Steve Baker or David Davis are both significantly to the right of Clarke or Cameron but have a very different approach, and are in no sense fascists.
They don't want to take us back to the glorious 1950s. They do not view dissent as treason. They don't drone on about past wars. They can think for themselves rather than rely on the "will of the people".
Steve Baker and David Davis are extreme libertarians, quite often more than they are conservatives.
Hence liberals might like some of their views in a way they cannot tolerate the views of traditional conservatives, hence they call them 'Fascists'.
Of course driving traditional conservatives in this way out of mainstream debate is the quickest way to expand support for those who genuinely are Fascists
You genuinely are a fascist. Although you share many of the same views as Tory MPs, nearly all of them do NOT share your views that fall into the fascist camp.
Let me give you another example. Nigel Farage is to the right of the Tories but I wouldn't call him a fascist, although he is pushing the boundaries sometime.
You won't because it wouldn't help you win your tedious argument as to why you have to call me a Fascist, that is all.
Well I can prove that wrong because it was discussed the other day and I said so then. I can find the reference if you wish. Not doing very well in this argument are you,?
You started this argument by resorting to abuse, not me.
You are clearly not going to withdraw your allegation so why should I care, it says more about you than me
How did I abuse you? I said you were a fascist. Your views put you in that politic grouping. I don't approve of fascists but it is a valid political group.
The fact that you can't recognise that is the group you belong to isn't my problem. Try asking others here where they think you fit.
Well it is attitudes of liberals like you that actually will expand Fascism.
If traditional conservatives like me end up being branded as 'Fascists' by the likes of you very soon we will have our own Trump or Le Pen as you drive decent conservatives towards the extreme right. You certainly will not like the results of the Fascist government we get then. Then it really will make Boris and me look liberal!
We have covered this already. I might not agree with traditional Tories but I don't call them fascists because they are not. Your views go way beyond traditional conservatism. I and others have already listed out areas where you are different.
Much as I disapprove of Boris he is not a Fascist. You are.
And as I said your attitudes will bring forward the day we do have a genuine Fascist government and you will not like the results
Tell me how your views differ from fascism then? I'll give you, that to your credit, you don't have any racist or homophobic views, so I'm knocking that one off.
For crying out loud you think Russia is a democracy. It isn't.
Wait until we had a genuine Fascist government, under which you would likely be interned or worse. Then you would find out
Dangerously close to threatening people. I know you think this sort of thing is funny, but less is more.
Is conjuring restless ghost of Sir Oswald Mosley copycatting Adolf Hitler, a step up OR down from channeling turbulent spirit of Madame de Krüdener urging on Alexander I?
The very question being asked at this moment on the Clapham omnibus.
Finland’s PM Sanna Marin said today that Finland must make a decision on NATO membership this spring.
Speaking to SDP party delegates, she said it’s time to seriously reconsider Finland’s stance on NATO and that she will reveal her position in the coming weeks.
If Finland Joins NATO, Sweden would effectively be freeriding in to bloc without any reciprocal obligations. It would be a bit like Ireland being able to rely on the UK for its defence because of its geographical position.
“Freeriding.”
Oh dear.
Rule No.1 of politics: never fall for your own propaganda.
@HYUFD having been away and just read the end of the last thread it is also not edifying that having got 2 things of no importance whatsoever wrong you can't admit it. You specifically said a restaurant had a Michelin star and one had to go through Essex on a trip you defined. Neither were correct. You then moved the goal posts on both.
What is wrong with you that you can never admit you are wrong even on trivia?
I really don't care, this is a politics blog not Mastermind. However I will admit I was not exactly right if that makes you happy.
Still does not give you the right to call me a Fascist!
Neither do I buy you seem to as you will bang on and on trying to defend an obvious error.
I have every right to call you a fascist because that is what your views imply. I forgot about that admiration of Franco that others stated. You fit that group almost perfectly. The only area where you don't would be that, to your credit, you don't express any race or homophobic views.
Well given an actual former Fascist is polling 47% in the French election runoff polls later this month and Trump, frequently called a Fascist got 46% in 2016 and 47% in 2020 in the US election and the President of Russia has just invaded his neighbour one could say there is a fair amount of Fascism about again now. Some have also called Bolsonaro, the President of Italy and Salvini, the main right of centre leader in Italy, Fascists. However I am a conservative not a Fascist
If you are a conservative why are you such a fan of a PM who has more in common with the Revolutionary Communist Party than Ken Clarke or Phillip Hammond?
At best you are an extreme Conservative party loyalist (which is quite different from conservative), but from your posting it seems reasonable to assume you at least admire many fascists, and are happy to adopt their style of politics, even if you do not want the same outcomes.
It is of course common practice now for many on the left or liberal spectrum to call anyone further right of Ken Clarke or David Cameron a Fascist. In which case 43% of the country are Fascists given they voted for Boris in 2019. I of course did vote for May's Tories over Farage in the 2019 European elections unlike some on here.
However given Labour voters in 2019 and 2017 voted for a near Communist with plenty of anti Semitic supporters you don't really have a great deal of moral high ground on this
You really don't get it, do you? It is not about being left or right. Steve Baker or David Davis are both significantly to the right of Clarke or Cameron but have a very different approach, and are in no sense fascists.
They don't want to take us back to the glorious 1950s. They do not view dissent as treason. They don't drone on about past wars. They can think for themselves rather than rely on the "will of the people".
Steve Baker and David Davis are extreme libertarians, quite often more than they are conservatives.
Hence liberals might like some of their views in a way they cannot tolerate the views of traditional conservatives, hence they call them 'Fascists'.
Of course driving traditional conservatives in this way out of mainstream debate is the quickest way to expand support for those who genuinely are Fascists
But you and your party are not “traditional conservatives”.
The modern iteration of the Tory party:
- English Nationalist, not One Nation - Revolutionary, not Conservative - High tax/high debt, not Friedman - State control, not free market - Social engineering, not conservatism - Nasty, not paternal - Reactive, not confident - Populist, not principled - Clown, not competence - Degenerate, not moral - Cash for pals, not good governance - Fiscal spaffing, not fiscal moderation - Fuck business, not pro business - Proroguing parliament, not the rule of law - Lying to the monarch, not respecting institutions - Authoritarian, not liberal - Corruption, not ethics - Second jobs, not public service - Serving clients, not constituents - Peppa Pig, not promoting productivity - Cokeheads, not sober - Law-breakers, not law enforcers -Presidential system, not constitutional monarchy - Sovereign party, not sovereign parliament - Police fines, not clean sheets - Windrush disgrace, not Ukrainian solidarity
The only constants are the blue rosettes, greed and jingoism.
Much of that of course comes back to your side blocking Brexit.
Conservatism is also not automatically free market, indeed conservatives have often been pro tariff and pro protectionist not free trade.
Support for the free market and free trade is more a liberal trait than a conservative one
Hitler nursed the Versailles grudge.
Modern fascists nurse the Brexit grudge.
Brexit will *never* be over. The war will never be won. You are simultaneously victorious and tragic failures.
I rather think that over eggs brexiteers, to call them fascists. Brexit is globalist, rather than protectionist. It seeks trade and relations will all around the world, equally, not a closed shop in Europe. It seeks genuine free trade. How is any of that fascist? Brexit is over, what is next is the ever changing relationships with our European friends. Step away from political anoraks and most people have consigned Brexit to the finished pile. You can certainly argue that some conservatives want to keep it current, to keep the 2019 coalition in play, but I don’t think the public will buy.
Brexit promised protectionism and pull-up-the-drawbridge to those who wanted more protectionism and to pull-up-the-drawbridge.
Simultaneously, and shamelessly, it also offered free trade and more immigration to those who wanted more immigration and more free trade.
Brexit was whatever-the-fuck-you-wanted-it-to-be, right up until the point when the result came in.
At the end of the day, the brexiteers smashed the Cameronite consensus and @hyufd ‘s lot grabbed power.
I don’t believe Brexit offered protectionism. It anticipated free trade with Europe without the political side.
Breathtakingly naive to believe that trade policy is somehow a non-political issue. Thatcherism bred a generation of social and political incompetents.
Not what I said. Brexit aspires to free trade everywhere. The eu is a protectionist bloc. That’s their right.
I think it's a bit more complicated than that.
There were people who voted for Brexit because they felt the EU was a protectionist bloc, and they wanted more free trade.
There were people who voted for Brexit because they felt the EU was too free trade, and they wanted more protectionism.
There were people who voted for Brexit because they wanted less EU immigration.
And there were people who voted for Brexit because they felt democracy was diluted inside a big bloc.
People had different motivations for their votes.
And until the UK resolves that (and I'm not sure that the political system has fully acknowledged it, let alone resolved it), we're stuck blowing raspberries at Brussels.
Because that's the nearest thing we have to a consensus plan.
Finland’s PM Sanna Marin said today that Finland must make a decision on NATO membership this spring.
Speaking to SDP party delegates, she said it’s time to seriously reconsider Finland’s stance on NATO and that she will reveal her position in the coming weeks.
Meanwhile, in neighbouring Sweden, her sister Social Democrats are riding high in the polls on an anti-NATO membership platform.
Difference, surely, is that Finland shares such a long border with Russia and was historically ruled by the Tsar. Sweden much less vulnerable on all counts.
Both Finland and Sweden are democracies, and it is the respective electorates who will decide.
Well, obvs.
Point I was making is that I can see why NATO membership might seem more compelling from a Finnish viewpoint than a Swedish one. The Finns I know (not many, admittedly) are very aware and proud of the Winter War but also aware that the Russians walked away with a big chunk of their country, despite their heroic efforts.
The ridiculous spectacle of PB arguing whether @hyufd from Epping is a fascist when we have actual Fascism slaughtering thousands of Europeans RIGHT NOW, presaging all out global war
Get a grip. Everyone
I agree with Leon. There are other things to discuss this evening.
Sky have printed the papers with the story of the Tory MP hidden behind legal embargo, suggests someone is fighting back on this.
Pakistan prime minister about to fall. Just through the lens of his Putin support not a bad thing, but through a wider lens he seemed to have a lid on a split and chaotic country?
And something definitely is happening in Ukraine, to seize Chernobyl now surrender it cannot be Kremlins original plan, so the phrase “in some ways they have already lost” is spot on.
What has been described below in this thread as Liberterian wing of Tory Parliamentary party are pressuring government for tax cuts not deficit cuts, I think justifies what I said yesterday the budget was good because it was not driven by populism and ideology, but something closer to good old fashioned Conservative economic literacy - now there is a fight on to defend it.
I know that a lot of people on here disagree with each other about politics.
Can we pause for a minute and think about what we have in common? I hope we can agree on a definition of evil. It is on display right now in Ukraine. Civilians with bound hands, shot and left for dead in the street. Apologies but here is a link if you don't believe me.
Forget Boris and partygate. Forget whether Starmer would be better. This is much more important.
I don't see how there can be a peace deal given the blood on Putin's hands. This ends when he is gone or everyone who stands up to him are.
Finland’s PM Sanna Marin said today that Finland must make a decision on NATO membership this spring.
Speaking to SDP party delegates, she said it’s time to seriously reconsider Finland’s stance on NATO and that she will reveal her position in the coming weeks.
If Finland Joins NATO, Sweden would effectively be freeriding in to bloc without any reciprocal obligations. It would be a bit like Ireland being able to rely on the UK for its defence because of its geographical position.
“Freeriding.”
Oh dear.
Rule No.1 of politics: never fall for your own propaganda.
It isn't falling for propoganda, it is a reasonable assessment of the situation. If Finland join NATO - who would Sweden be at risk of attack from? All the countries that surround it would be in NATO.
I know very little of this debate but you can tell by looking at a map that it is far more in Finland's interest to join NATO, than Sweden's.
@HYUFD having been away and just read the end of the last thread it is also not edifying that having got 2 things of no importance whatsoever wrong you can't admit it. You specifically said a restaurant had a Michelin star and one had to go through Essex on a trip you defined. Neither were correct. You then moved the goal posts on both.
What is wrong with you that you can never admit you are wrong even on trivia?
I really don't care, this is a politics blog not Mastermind. However I will admit I was not exactly right if that makes you happy.
Still does not give you the right to call me a Fascist!
Neither do I buy you seem to as you will bang on and on trying to defend an obvious error.
I have every right to call you a fascist because that is what your views imply. I forgot about that admiration of Franco that others stated. You fit that group almost perfectly. The only area where you don't would be that, to your credit, you don't express any race or homophobic views.
Well given an actual former Fascist is polling 47% in the French election runoff polls later this month and Trump, frequently called a Fascist got 46% in 2016 and 47% in 2020 in the US election and the President of Russia has just invaded his neighbour one could say there is a fair amount of Fascism about again now. Some have also called Bolsonaro, the President of Italy and Salvini, the main right of centre leader in Italy, Fascists. However I am a conservative not a Fascist
If you are a conservative why are you such a fan of a PM who has more in common with the Revolutionary Communist Party than Ken Clarke or Phillip Hammond?
At best you are an extreme Conservative party loyalist (which is quite different from conservative), but from your posting it seems reasonable to assume you at least admire many fascists, and are happy to adopt their style of politics, even if you do not want the same outcomes.
It is of course common practice now for many on the left or liberal spectrum to call anyone further right of Ken Clarke or David Cameron a Fascist. In which case 43% of the country are Fascists given they voted for Boris in 2019. I of course did vote for May's Tories over Farage in the 2019 European elections unlike some on here.
However given Labour voters in 2019 and 2017 voted for a near Communist with plenty of anti Semitic supporters you don't really have a great deal of moral high ground on this
You really don't get it, do you? It is not about being left or right. Steve Baker or David Davis are both significantly to the right of Clarke or Cameron but have a very different approach, and are in no sense fascists.
They don't want to take us back to the glorious 1950s. They do not view dissent as treason. They don't drone on about past wars. They can think for themselves rather than rely on the "will of the people".
Steve Baker and David Davis are extreme libertarians, quite often more than they are conservatives.
Hence liberals might like some of their views in a way they cannot tolerate the views of traditional conservatives, hence they call them 'Fascists'.
Of course driving traditional conservatives in this way out of mainstream debate is the quickest way to expand support for those who genuinely are Fascists
But you and your party are not “traditional conservatives”.
The modern iteration of the Tory party:
- English Nationalist, not One Nation - Revolutionary, not Conservative - High tax/high debt, not Friedman - State control, not free market - Social engineering, not conservatism - Nasty, not paternal - Reactive, not confident - Populist, not principled - Clown, not competence - Degenerate, not moral - Cash for pals, not good governance - Fiscal spaffing, not fiscal moderation - Fuck business, not pro business - Proroguing parliament, not the rule of law - Lying to the monarch, not respecting institutions - Authoritarian, not liberal - Corruption, not ethics - Second jobs, not public service - Serving clients, not constituents - Peppa Pig, not promoting productivity - Cokeheads, not sober - Law-breakers, not law enforcers -Presidential system, not constitutional monarchy - Sovereign party, not sovereign parliament - Police fines, not clean sheets - Windrush disgrace, not Ukrainian solidarity
The only constants are the blue rosettes, greed and jingoism.
Much of that of course comes back to your side blocking Brexit.
Conservatism is also not automatically free market, indeed conservatives have often been pro tariff and pro protectionist not free trade.
Support for the free market and free trade is more a liberal trait than a conservative one
Hitler nursed the Versailles grudge.
Modern fascists nurse the Brexit grudge.
Brexit will *never* be over. The war will never be won. You are simultaneously victorious and tragic failures.
I rather think that over eggs brexiteers, to call them fascists. Brexit is globalist, rather than protectionist. It seeks trade and relations will all around the world, equally, not a closed shop in Europe. It seeks genuine free trade. How is any of that fascist? Brexit is over, what is next is the ever changing relationships with our European friends. Step away from political anoraks and most people have consigned Brexit to the finished pile. You can certainly argue that some conservatives want to keep it current, to keep the 2019 coalition in play, but I don’t think the public will buy.
Brexit promised protectionism and pull-up-the-drawbridge to those who wanted more protectionism and to pull-up-the-drawbridge.
Simultaneously, and shamelessly, it also offered free trade and more immigration to those who wanted more immigration and more free trade.
Brexit was whatever-the-fuck-you-wanted-it-to-be, right up until the point when the result came in.
At the end of the day, the brexiteers smashed the Cameronite consensus and @hyufd ‘s lot grabbed power.
I don’t believe Brexit offered protectionism. It anticipated free trade with Europe without the political side.
Breathtakingly naive to believe that trade policy is somehow a non-political issue. Thatcherism bred a generation of social and political incompetents.
Not what I said. Brexit aspires to free trade everywhere. The eu is a protectionist bloc. That’s their right.
I think it's a bit more complicated than that.
There were people who voted for Brexit because they felt the EU was a protectionist bloc, and they wanted more free trade.
There were people who voted for Brexit because they felt the EU was too free trade, and they wanted more protectionism.
There were people who voted for Brexit because they wanted less EU immigration.
And there were people who voted for Brexit because they felt democracy was diluted inside a big bloc.
People had different motivations for their votes.
And until the UK resolves that (and I'm not sure that the political system has fully acknowledged it, let alone resolved it), we're stuck blowing raspberries at Brussels.
Because that's the nearest thing we have to a consensus plan.
I think acknowledging different motivations for voting for Brexit is a step in the right direction, and away from a simplistic take that all the Brexit voters were just racists who wanted to stop immigration. Of course there were many reasons and people projected their desires on Brexit too. The trick now is to move forward. The current government are showing little inclination to do so. Time for a fresh government.
My own sources tell me (via my special 4-ply tin-foil helmet) that hapless Claphamites are obsessed with bombshell news, that Sarah Palin in running against Santa Claus.
Surely the champagne corks must still be popping at the Daily Mail.
Finland’s PM Sanna Marin said today that Finland must make a decision on NATO membership this spring.
Speaking to SDP party delegates, she said it’s time to seriously reconsider Finland’s stance on NATO and that she will reveal her position in the coming weeks.
If Finland Joins NATO, Sweden would effectively be freeriding in to bloc without any reciprocal obligations. It would be a bit like Ireland being able to rely on the UK for its defence because of its geographical position.
“Freeriding.”
Oh dear.
Rule No.1 of politics: never fall for your own propaganda.
It isn't falling for propoganda, it is a reasonable assessment of the situation. If Finland join NATO - who would Sweden be at risk of attack from? All the countries that surround it would be in NATO.
I know very little of this debate but you can tell by looking at a map that it is far more in Finland's interest to join NATO, than Sweden's.
My own sources tell me (via my special 4-ply tin-foil helmet) that hapless Claphamites are obsessed with bombshell news, that Sarah Palin in running against Santa Claus.
Surely the champagne corks must still be popping at the Daily Mail.
Finland’s PM Sanna Marin said today that Finland must make a decision on NATO membership this spring.
Speaking to SDP party delegates, she said it’s time to seriously reconsider Finland’s stance on NATO and that she will reveal her position in the coming weeks.
If Finland Joins NATO, Sweden would effectively be freeriding in to bloc without any reciprocal obligations. It would be a bit like Ireland being able to rely on the UK for its defence because of its geographical position.
“Freeriding.”
Oh dear.
Rule No.1 of politics: never fall for your own propaganda.
It isn't falling for propoganda, it is a reasonable assessment of the situation. If Finland join NATO - who would Sweden be at risk of attack from? All the countries that surround it would be in NATO.
I know very little of this debate but you can tell by looking at a map that it is far more in Finland's interest to join NATO, than Sweden's.
You know Vlad has cruise missiles right?
As we've seen in Ukraine, you can't occupy a country with cruise missiles.
@HYUFD having been away and just read the end of the last thread it is also not edifying that having got 2 things of no importance whatsoever wrong you can't admit it. You specifically said a restaurant had a Michelin star and one had to go through Essex on a trip you defined. Neither were correct. You then moved the goal posts on both.
What is wrong with you that you can never admit you are wrong even on trivia?
I really don't care, this is a politics blog not Mastermind. However I will admit I was not exactly right if that makes you happy.
Still does not give you the right to call me a Fascist!
Neither do I buy you seem to as you will bang on and on trying to defend an obvious error.
I have every right to call you a fascist because that is what your views imply. I forgot about that admiration of Franco that others stated. You fit that group almost perfectly. The only area where you don't would be that, to your credit, you don't express any race or homophobic views.
Well given an actual former Fascist is polling 47% in the French election runoff polls later this month and Trump, frequently called a Fascist got 46% in 2016 and 47% in 2020 in the US election and the President of Russia has just invaded his neighbour one could say there is a fair amount of Fascism about again now. Some have also called Bolsonaro, the President of Italy and Salvini, the main right of centre leader in Italy, Fascists. However I am a conservative not a Fascist
If you are a conservative why are you such a fan of a PM who has more in common with the Revolutionary Communist Party than Ken Clarke or Phillip Hammond?
At best you are an extreme Conservative party loyalist (which is quite different from conservative), but from your posting it seems reasonable to assume you at least admire many fascists, and are happy to adopt their style of politics, even if you do not want the same outcomes.
It is of course common practice now for many on the left or liberal spectrum to call anyone further right of Ken Clarke or David Cameron a Fascist. In which case 43% of the country are Fascists given they voted for Boris in 2019. I of course did vote for May's Tories over Farage in the 2019 European elections unlike some on here.
However given Labour voters in 2019 and 2017 voted for a near Communist with plenty of anti Semitic supporters you don't really have a great deal of moral high ground on this
You really don't get it, do you? It is not about being left or right. Steve Baker or David Davis are both significantly to the right of Clarke or Cameron but have a very different approach, and are in no sense fascists.
They don't want to take us back to the glorious 1950s. They do not view dissent as treason. They don't drone on about past wars. They can think for themselves rather than rely on the "will of the people".
Steve Baker and David Davis are extreme libertarians, quite often more than they are conservatives.
Hence liberals might like some of their views in a way they cannot tolerate the views of traditional conservatives, hence they call them 'Fascists'.
Of course driving traditional conservatives in this way out of mainstream debate is the quickest way to expand support for those who genuinely are Fascists
But you and your party are not “traditional conservatives”.
The modern iteration of the Tory party:
- English Nationalist, not One Nation - Revolutionary, not Conservative - High tax/high debt, not Friedman - State control, not free market - Social engineering, not conservatism - Nasty, not paternal - Reactive, not confident - Populist, not principled - Clown, not competence - Degenerate, not moral - Cash for pals, not good governance - Fiscal spaffing, not fiscal moderation - Fuck business, not pro business - Proroguing parliament, not the rule of law - Lying to the monarch, not respecting institutions - Authoritarian, not liberal - Corruption, not ethics - Second jobs, not public service - Serving clients, not constituents - Peppa Pig, not promoting productivity - Cokeheads, not sober - Law-breakers, not law enforcers -Presidential system, not constitutional monarchy - Sovereign party, not sovereign parliament - Police fines, not clean sheets - Windrush disgrace, not Ukrainian solidarity
The only constants are the blue rosettes, greed and jingoism.
Much of that of course comes back to your side blocking Brexit.
Conservatism is also not automatically free market, indeed conservatives have often been pro tariff and pro protectionist not free trade.
Support for the free market and free trade is more a liberal trait than a conservative one
Hitler nursed the Versailles grudge.
Modern fascists nurse the Brexit grudge.
Brexit will *never* be over. The war will never be won. You are simultaneously victorious and tragic failures.
I rather think that over eggs brexiteers, to call them fascists. Brexit is globalist, rather than protectionist. It seeks trade and relations will all around the world, equally, not a closed shop in Europe. It seeks genuine free trade. How is any of that fascist? Brexit is over, what is next is the ever changing relationships with our European friends. Step away from political anoraks and most people have consigned Brexit to the finished pile. You can certainly argue that some conservatives want to keep it current, to keep the 2019 coalition in play, but I don’t think the public will buy.
Brexit promised protectionism and pull-up-the-drawbridge to those who wanted more protectionism and to pull-up-the-drawbridge.
Simultaneously, and shamelessly, it also offered free trade and more immigration to those who wanted more immigration and more free trade.
Brexit was whatever-the-fuck-you-wanted-it-to-be, right up until the point when the result came in.
At the end of the day, the brexiteers smashed the Cameronite consensus and @hyufd ‘s lot grabbed power.
I don’t believe Brexit offered protectionism. It anticipated free trade with Europe without the political side.
Breathtakingly naive to believe that trade policy is somehow a non-political issue. Thatcherism bred a generation of social and political incompetents.
Not what I said. Brexit aspires to free trade everywhere. The eu is a protectionist bloc. That’s their right.
I think it's a bit more complicated than that.
There were people who voted for Brexit because they felt the EU was a protectionist bloc, and they wanted more free trade.
There were people who voted for Brexit because they felt the EU was too free trade, and they wanted more protectionism.
There were people who voted for Brexit because they wanted less EU immigration.
And there were people who voted for Brexit because they felt democracy was diluted inside a big bloc.
People had different motivations for their votes.
And until the UK resolves that (and I'm not sure that the political system has fully acknowledged it, let alone resolved it), we're stuck blowing raspberries at Brussels.
Because that's the nearest thing we have to a consensus plan.
I think acknowledging different motivations for voting for Brexit is a step in the right direction, and away from a simplistic take that all the Brexit voters were just racists who wanted to stop immigration. Of course there were many reasons and people projected their desires on Brexit too. The trick now is to move forward. The current government are showing little inclination to do so. Time for a fresh government.
Forward will be good, if we can ever understand and agree what forward looks like.
Unfortunately, the tactical genius of Dominic Cummings means that the UK has been given a map drawn by Escher and printed by Möbius.
@HYUFD and I do not always agree. Even though we are both to the right. HYUFD clearly comes from a wealthy middle/upper class background whereas I come from a poor background but I now have loads of money from my own efforts. So for instance I don't agree with HYUFD's 'entitlement' over inheritance. But he's not a fascist. Got it?
Thanks.
I have come down with Covid this evening so am retreating to my bunker anyway for the next few days.
Any doctors in the house? I've been prescribed doxycycline for an infection, finding it's giving me a bit of nausea. Been advised taking it with a meal will help but reduce the effectiveness. Is this a significant drop or will I be okay?
Nausea is quite common with it, particularly if you lie down afterwards, so best taken when up and about. I take it as antimalarial at times.
Thanks Foxy, will make sure I take it just before I go out tomorrow, thanks so much.
@HYUFD and I do not always agree. Even though we are both to the right. HYUFD clearly comes from a wealthy middle/upper class background whereas I come from a poor background but I now have loads of money from my own efforts. So for instance I don't agree with HYUFD's 'entitlement' over inheritance. But he's not a fascist. Got it?
Thanks.
I have come down with Covid this evening so am retreating to my bunker anyway for the next few days.
Goodnight
I am sorry to hear that
I know we disagree a lot, but I hope that you are soon up and running and posting again
I wonder if the revelations of the atrocities we have seen today will persuade European countries to switch off the gas?
All those people who accused central and east Europeans of paranoia towards Russia ought to hang their heads in shame. There is a profound arrogance in assuming you know someone's neighbours better than they do themselves. Truth is those people had seen it all before. There was never any sign that Russia had changed. A kleptocratic elite that uses delinquents as cannon fodder. No doubt there will be the usual suspects saying we poked the bear (like we did in Chechnya and Syria?) how poor Russia has been humiliated by the west for 30/300/3000 years etc etc.
Something else. I can't help feel there has been a certain snobbery on display. A view in western Europe that Russians were BETTER than their fellow slavs. After all Russia gave us ballet, Tolstoy and Dostoyevsky. What have the Poles and Ukrainians given us? How dare they deign to criticise the great nation of Russia. What a bunch of upstarts. Now it wasn't just a matter of class or culture. Money mattered too and of course cheap gas. Russia has been infantilised by its energy resources removing any need to develop a modern economy. I hope Europeans now feel like Dr Frankenstein after he created the monster.
@HYUFD and I do not always agree. Even though we are both to the right. HYUFD clearly comes from a wealthy middle/upper class background whereas I come from a poor background but I now have loads of money from my own efforts. So for instance I don't agree with HYUFD's 'entitlement' over inheritance. But he's not a fascist. Got it?
Thanks.
I have come down with Covid this evening so am retreating to my bunker anyway for the next few days.
Goodnight
Hope you feel better soon
For KJH's benefit HYUFDs bunker is not located in Berlin
I wonder if the revelations of the atrocities we have seen today will persuade European countries to switch off the gas?
All those people who accused central and east Europeans of paranoia towards Russia ought to hang their heads in shame. There is a profound arrogance in assuming you know someone's neighbours better than they do themselves. Truth is those people had seen it all before. There was never any sign that Russia had changed. A kleptocratic elite that uses delinquents as cannon fodder. No doubt there will be the usual suspects saying we poked the bear (like we did in Chechnya and Syria?) how poor Russia has been humiliated by the west for 30/300/3000 years etc etc.
Something else. I can't help feel there has been a certain snobbery on display. A view in western Europe that Russians were BETTER than their fellow slavs. After all Russia gave us ballet, Tolstoy and Dostoyevsky. What have the Poles and Ukrainians given us? How dare they deign to criticise the great nation of Russia. What a bunch of upstarts. Now it wasn't just a matter of class or culture. Money mattered too and of course cheap gas. Russia has been infantilised by its energy resources removing any need to develop a modern economy. I hope Europeans now feel like Dr Frankenstein after he created the monster.
What we are seeing today, as if we hadn't seen enough already, is evidence of war crimes and we cannot in good conscience continue trading with a rogue state.
It will be painful, and it will cost the west, but Russia needs to be seen as an international pariah. Anything less is letting the murderous bastards get away with it.
@HYUFD and I do not always agree. Even though we are both to the right. HYUFD clearly comes from a wealthy middle/upper class background whereas I come from a poor background but I now have loads of money from my own efforts. So for instance I don't agree with HYUFD's 'entitlement' over inheritance. But he's not a fascist. Got it?
Thanks.
I have come down with Covid this evening so am retreating to my bunker anyway for the next few days.
Goodnight
Symoathies, have just escaped from it. With luck it will be fairly mild, as it was for me. All the best.
I wonder if the revelations of the atrocities we have seen today will persuade European countries to switch off the gas?
All those people who accused central and east Europeans of paranoia towards Russia ought to hang their heads in shame. There is a profound arrogance in assuming you know someone's neighbours better than they do themselves. Truth is those people had seen it all before. There was never any sign that Russia had changed. A kleptocratic elite that uses delinquents as cannon fodder. No doubt there will be the usual suspects saying we poked the bear (like we did in Chechnya and Syria?) how poor Russia has been humiliated by the west for 30/300/3000 years etc etc.
Something else. I can't help feel there has been a certain snobbery on display. A view in western Europe that Russians were BETTER than their fellow slavs. After all Russia gave us ballet, Tolstoy and Dostoyevsky. What have the Poles and Ukrainians given us? How dare they deign to criticise the great nation of Russia. What a bunch of upstarts. Now it wasn't just a matter of class or culture. Money mattered too and of course cheap gas. Russia has been infantilised by its energy resources removing any need to develop a modern economy. I hope Europeans now feel like Dr Frankenstein after he created the monster.
What we are seeing today, as if we hadn't seen enough already, is evidence of war crimes and we cannot in good conscience continue trading with a rogue state.
It will be painful, and it will cost the west, but Russia needs to be seen as an international pariah. Anything less is letting the murderous bastards get away with it.
We need some confiscation of profits from those who have made themselves useful to Putin's kleptocracy.
First people to be investigated being Mandelson and Osborne.
I wonder if the revelations of the atrocities we have seen today will persuade European countries to switch off the gas?
All those people who accused central and east Europeans of paranoia towards Russia ought to hang their heads in shame. There is a profound arrogance in assuming you know someone's neighbours better than they do themselves. Truth is those people had seen it all before. There was never any sign that Russia had changed. A kleptocratic elite that uses delinquents as cannon fodder. No doubt there will be the usual suspects saying we poked the bear (like we did in Chechnya and Syria?) how poor Russia has been humiliated by the west for 30/300/3000 years etc etc.
Something else. I can't help feel there has been a certain snobbery on display. A view in western Europe that Russians were BETTER than their fellow slavs. After all Russia gave us ballet, Tolstoy and Dostoyevsky. What have the Poles and Ukrainians given us? How dare they deign to criticise the great nation of Russia. What a bunch of upstarts. Now it wasn't just a matter of class or culture. Money mattered too and of course cheap gas. Russia has been infantilised by its energy resources removing any need to develop a modern economy. I hope Europeans now feel like Dr Frankenstein after he created the monster.
@HYUFD and I do not always agree. Even though we are both to the right. HYUFD clearly comes from a wealthy middle/upper class background whereas I come from a poor background but I now have loads of money from my own efforts. So for instance I don't agree with HYUFD's 'entitlement' over inheritance. But he's not a fascist. Got it?
Thanks.
I have come down with Covid this evening so am retreating to my bunker anyway for the next few days.
Goodnight
Sorry to hear that. Take it easy and hope all goes well.
I wonder if the revelations of the atrocities we have seen today will persuade European countries to switch off the gas?
All those people who accused central and east Europeans of paranoia towards Russia ought to hang their heads in shame. There is a profound arrogance in assuming you know someone's neighbours better than they do themselves. Truth is those people had seen it all before. There was never any sign that Russia had changed. A kleptocratic elite that uses delinquents as cannon fodder. No doubt there will be the usual suspects saying we poked the bear (like we did in Chechnya and Syria?) how poor Russia has been humiliated by the west for 30/300/3000 years etc etc.
Something else. I can't help feel there has been a certain snobbery on display. A view in western Europe that Russians were BETTER than their fellow slavs. After all Russia gave us ballet, Tolstoy and Dostoyevsky. What have the Poles and Ukrainians given us? How dare they deign to criticise the great nation of Russia. What a bunch of upstarts. Now it wasn't just a matter of class or culture. Money mattered too and of course cheap gas. Russia has been infantilised by its energy resources removing any need to develop a modern economy. I hope Europeans now feel like Dr Frankenstein after he created the monster.
@HYUFD and I do not always agree. Even though we are both to the right. HYUFD clearly comes from a wealthy middle/upper class background whereas I come from a poor background but I now have loads of money from my own efforts. So for instance I don't agree with HYUFD's 'entitlement' over inheritance. But he's not a fascist. Got it?
Thanks.
I have come down with Covid this evening so am retreating to my bunker anyway for the next few days.
Goodnight
Good luck. It sucks, but you’ll get through it. Hoping to go -ve tomorrow on day 12. It’s been a slog.
@HYUFD and I do not always agree. Even though we are both to the right. HYUFD clearly comes from a wealthy middle/upper class background whereas I come from a poor background but I now have loads of money from my own efforts. So for instance I don't agree with HYUFD's 'entitlement' over inheritance. But he's not a fascist. Got it?
Thanks.
I have come down with Covid this evening so am retreating to my bunker anyway for the next few days.
Goodnight
Take care, hope you recover quickly and see you on the site soon!
@HYUFD and I do not always agree. Even though we are both to the right. HYUFD clearly comes from a wealthy middle/upper class background whereas I come from a poor background but I now have loads of money from my own efforts. So for instance I don't agree with HYUFD's 'entitlement' over inheritance. But he's not a fascist. Got it?
Thanks.
I have come down with Covid this evening so am retreating to my bunker anyway for the next few days.
Goodnight
Good luck. It sucks, but you’ll get through it. Hoping to go -ve tomorrow on day 12. It’s been a slog.
I thought you were supposed to stop testing after ten days (assuming you don't have symptoms any more)?
I wonder if the revelations of the atrocities we have seen today will persuade European countries to switch off the gas?
All those people who accused central and east Europeans of paranoia towards Russia ought to hang their heads in shame. There is a profound arrogance in assuming you know someone's neighbours better than they do themselves. Truth is those people had seen it all before. There was never any sign that Russia had changed. A kleptocratic elite that uses delinquents as cannon fodder. No doubt there will be the usual suspects saying we poked the bear (like we did in Chechnya and Syria?) how poor Russia has been humiliated by the west for 30/300/3000 years etc etc.
Something else. I can't help feel there has been a certain snobbery on display. A view in western Europe that Russians were BETTER than their fellow slavs. After all Russia gave us ballet, Tolstoy and Dostoyevsky. What have the Poles and Ukrainians given us? How dare they deign to criticise the great nation of Russia. What a bunch of upstarts. Now it wasn't just a matter of class or culture. Money mattered too and of course cheap gas. Russia has been infantilised by its energy resources removing any need to develop a modern economy. I hope Europeans now feel like Dr Frankenstein after he created the monster.
Mick Ryan, AM @WarintheFuture The horrific scenes from #Bucha reinforce the contents of this piece. ICC & others will investigate, but Russian commanders were negligent, ethically corrupt & criminal. Bucha shows the Russian Army is not ‘professional’ nor do they deserve the term ‘soldiers’. 1/14
Dozens of photos of Ukrainian civilians with hands tied behind their back, summarily executed. A new Holocaust by bullets. To think so many laughed it off just weeks ago, or days even
@HYUFD and I do not always agree. Even though we are both to the right. HYUFD clearly comes from a wealthy middle/upper class background whereas I come from a poor background but I now have loads of money from my own efforts. So for instance I don't agree with HYUFD's 'entitlement' over inheritance. But he's not a fascist. Got it?
Thanks.
I have come down with Covid this evening so am retreating to my bunker anyway for the next few days.
Goodnight
Symoathies, have just escaped from it. With luck it will be fairly mild, as it was for me. All the best.
I wonder if the revelations of the atrocities we have seen today will persuade European countries to switch off the gas?
All those people who accused central and east Europeans of paranoia towards Russia ought to hang their heads in shame. There is a profound arrogance in assuming you know someone's neighbours better than they do themselves. Truth is those people had seen it all before. There was never any sign that Russia had changed. A kleptocratic elite that uses delinquents as cannon fodder. No doubt there will be the usual suspects saying we poked the bear (like we did in Chechnya and Syria?) how poor Russia has been humiliated by the west for 30/300/3000 years etc etc.
Something else. I can't help feel there has been a certain snobbery on display. A view in western Europe that Russians were BETTER than their fellow slavs. After all Russia gave us ballet, Tolstoy and Dostoyevsky. What have the Poles and Ukrainians given us? How dare they deign to criticise the great nation of Russia. What a bunch of upstarts. Now it wasn't just a matter of class or culture. Money mattered too and of course cheap gas. Russia has been infantilised by its energy resources removing any need to develop a modern economy. I hope Europeans now feel like Dr Frankenstein after he created the monster.
Isn't it surprising that Le Pen has been rising in the polls recently despite the photos of her shaking hands with Putin? I was expecting her support to go down.
Any doctors in the house? I've been prescribed doxycycline for an infection, finding it's giving me a bit of nausea. Been advised taking it with a meal will help but reduce the effectiveness. Is this a significant drop or will I be okay?
Nausea is quite common with it, particularly if you lie down afterwards, so best taken when up and about. I take it as antimalarial at times.
Try to avoid the sun as, in some people, it makes their skin much more sensitive.
Isn't it surprising that Le Pen has been rising in the polls recently despite the photos of her shaking hands with Putin? I was expecting her support to go down.
"Emmanuel Macron warns he could lose French election to the far right President invokes Brexit referendum result as Marine Le Pen rises in polls" (via Google search)
"Emmanuel Macron warns he could lose French election to the far right President invokes Brexit referendum result as Marine Le Pen rises in polls" (via Google search)
This is a standard British media template, they'll run this story regardless of what the polls say. You may as well reread the articles from last time.
"Emmanuel Macron warns he could lose French election to the far right President invokes Brexit referendum result as Marine Le Pen rises in polls" (via Google search)
This is a standard British media template, they'll run this story regardless of what the polls say. You may as well reread the articles from last time.
The polling average is currently 54/46 compared to the 66/34 result last time. The situation is certainly different to last time.
"Emmanuel Macron warns he could lose French election to the far right President invokes Brexit referendum result as Marine Le Pen rises in polls" (via Google search)
This is a standard British media template, they'll run this story regardless of what the polls say. You may as well reread the articles from last time.
The polling average is currently 54/46 compared to the 66/34 result last time. The situation is certainly different to last time.
It's a different situation but they'll write the same story, because that's what they have a template for. Last time they had to pin it on the first-round polling (Macron and Le Pen neck-and-neck!), this time Le Pen is way behind in the first-round polling so they have to pin it on a narrowing (which is a rewind of earlier widening that they didn't talk about) in the second-round polling.
I wonder if the revelations of the atrocities we have seen today will persuade European countries to switch off the gas?
All those people who accused central and east Europeans of paranoia towards Russia ought to hang their heads in shame. There is a profound arrogance in assuming you know someone's neighbours better than they do themselves. Truth is those people had seen it all before. There was never any sign that Russia had changed. A kleptocratic elite that uses delinquents as cannon fodder. No doubt there will be the usual suspects saying we poked the bear (like we did in Chechnya and Syria?) how poor Russia has been humiliated by the west for 30/300/3000 years etc etc.
Something else. I can't help feel there has been a certain snobbery on display. A view in western Europe that Russians were BETTER than their fellow slavs. After all Russia gave us ballet, Tolstoy and Dostoyevsky. What have the Poles and Ukrainians given us? How dare they deign to criticise the great nation of Russia. What a bunch of upstarts. Now it wasn't just a matter of class or culture. Money mattered too and of course cheap gas. Russia has been infantilised by its energy resources removing any need to develop a modern economy. I hope Europeans now feel like Dr Frankenstein after he created the monster.
What we are seeing today, as if we hadn't seen enough already, is evidence of war crimes and we cannot in good conscience continue trading with a rogue state.
It will be painful, and it will cost the west, but Russia needs to be seen as an international pariah. Anything less is letting the murderous bastards get away with it.
A report from liberated Trostyanets in the east, which was occupied for weeks before being liberated makes it clear that this barbarity is across the whole extent of the Russian invasion.
Of course similar stories have come from occupied Donbas for many years, but have received far less attention. The idea of plebiscites in Russian occupied territory is a sick joke.
I wonder if the revelations of the atrocities we have seen today will persuade European countries to switch off the gas?
All those people who accused central and east Europeans of paranoia towards Russia ought to hang their heads in shame. There is a profound arrogance in assuming you know someone's neighbours better than they do themselves. Truth is those people had seen it all before. There was never any sign that Russia had changed. A kleptocratic elite that uses delinquents as cannon fodder. No doubt there will be the usual suspects saying we poked the bear (like we did in Chechnya and Syria?) how poor Russia has been humiliated by the west for 30/300/3000 years etc etc.
Something else. I can't help feel there has been a certain snobbery on display. A view in western Europe that Russians were BETTER than their fellow slavs. After all Russia gave us ballet, Tolstoy and Dostoyevsky. What have the Poles and Ukrainians given us? How dare they deign to criticise the great nation of Russia. What a bunch of upstarts. Now it wasn't just a matter of class or culture. Money mattered too and of course cheap gas. Russia has been infantilised by its energy resources removing any need to develop a modern economy. I hope Europeans now feel like Dr Frankenstein after he created the monster.
The Poles gave us Copernicus.
And Chopin.
And one of my primary school teachers.
John III Sobieski, the man who finally turned back the expanding Ottoman Empire at the Battle of Vienna.
Ukraine gave us Khrushchev - for good or for ill - and a case could be made for Trotsky and Gorbachev as well.
I wonder if the revelations of the atrocities we have seen today will persuade European countries to switch off the gas?
All those people who accused central and east Europeans of paranoia towards Russia ought to hang their heads in shame. There is a profound arrogance in assuming you know someone's neighbours better than they do themselves. Truth is those people had seen it all before. There was never any sign that Russia had changed. A kleptocratic elite that uses delinquents as cannon fodder. No doubt there will be the usual suspects saying we poked the bear (like we did in Chechnya and Syria?) how poor Russia has been humiliated by the west for 30/300/3000 years etc etc.
Something else. I can't help feel there has been a certain snobbery on display. A view in western Europe that Russians were BETTER than their fellow slavs. After all Russia gave us ballet, Tolstoy and Dostoyevsky. What have the Poles and Ukrainians given us? How dare they deign to criticise the great nation of Russia. What a bunch of upstarts. Now it wasn't just a matter of class or culture. Money mattered too and of course cheap gas. Russia has been infantilised by its energy resources removing any need to develop a modern economy. I hope Europeans now feel like Dr Frankenstein after he created the monster.
The Poles gave us Copernicus.
And Chopin.
And one of my primary school teachers.
John III Sobieski, the man who finally turned back the expanding Ottoman Empire at the Battle of Vienna.
Ukraine gave us Khrushchev - for good or for ill - and a case could be made for Trotsky and Gorbachev as well.
I should have mentioned Joseph Conrad and Sergei Prokofiev.
I wonder if the revelations of the atrocities we have seen today will persuade European countries to switch off the gas?
All those people who accused central and east Europeans of paranoia towards Russia ought to hang their heads in shame. There is a profound arrogance in assuming you know someone's neighbours better than they do themselves. Truth is those people had seen it all before. There was never any sign that Russia had changed. A kleptocratic elite that uses delinquents as cannon fodder. No doubt there will be the usual suspects saying we poked the bear (like we did in Chechnya and Syria?) how poor Russia has been humiliated by the west for 30/300/3000 years etc etc.
Something else. I can't help feel there has been a certain snobbery on display. A view in western Europe that Russians were BETTER than their fellow slavs. After all Russia gave us ballet, Tolstoy and Dostoyevsky. What have the Poles and Ukrainians given us? How dare they deign to criticise the great nation of Russia. What a bunch of upstarts. Now it wasn't just a matter of class or culture. Money mattered too and of course cheap gas. Russia has been infantilised by its energy resources removing any need to develop a modern economy. I hope Europeans now feel like Dr Frankenstein after he created the monster.
What we are seeing today, as if we hadn't seen enough already, is evidence of war crimes and we cannot in good conscience continue trading with a rogue state.
It will be painful, and it will cost the west, but Russia needs to be seen as an international pariah. Anything less is letting the murderous bastards get away with it.
A report from liberated Trostyanets in the east, which was occupied for weeks before being liberated makes it clear that this barbarity is across the whole extent of the Russian invasion.
Of course similar stories have come from occupied Donbas for many years, but have received far less attention. The idea of plebiscites in Russian occupied territory is a sick joke.
A small, but telling, part of that article that’s shocking was the attitude of the American multinational with a factory there. It’s not just the French putting business ahead of anything else.
Comments
TBH, I imagine most of us would, in the end, make it on. That's the nature of Facism. Maybe tomorrow evening we could do a Communist Dictatorship and next week we can discuss who would make it onto the list in a communitarian eco-collective (we all know it's all of us, except those whom Dura Ace chooses to save).
“I understand your pain. When asked, the brave Brits, especially the noble English, said Yes, we want to be independent. Give us our freedom from Brussels
Whereas the Scots, when asked the same question, said, NO, we’d like stay a colony of England, thanks
It must hurt every day”
However.... isn't this actually pretty normal in war? The difference being that this time it has all been recorded.
It seems to me like the most likely outcome is that Russia gets labelled a pariah state and is completely cancelled by the west, but it goes on doing its business with much of the rest of the world as before.
It just seems that, sadly, business is business and many countries don't see this conflict the way we do. They will be happy to go on dealing with Putin's Russia.
Boring.
And yes @Leon is right: the atrocities in Ukraine are what real fascism mean - utterly repellent war crimes.
Night all.
The Great War (first)
Yemen
Afghanistan
Tibet
Take your pick. The list is endless.
If Russia didn't have nukes pointed at us we would be at war already.
Nasty Sean quotes are hardly rare. We have a couple of decades of frothing madness to mine.
Tough.
Or perhaps he wont know, as not one of his aides will dare tell him?
Visegrád 24
@visegrad24
·
5h
BREAKING:
Finland’s PM Sanna Marin said today that Finland must make a decision on NATO membership this spring.
Speaking to SDP party delegates, she said it’s time to seriously reconsider Finland’s stance on NATO and that she will reveal her position in the coming weeks.
https://twitter.com/visegrad24/status/1510283734620192771
Does make one worry about how high the death toll is in Mariupol, and other areas of the south of Ukraine.
Meanwhile, in neighbouring Sweden, her sister Social Democrats are riding high in the polls on an anti-NATO membership platform.
Very clear that HYUFD would be an enthusiastic participant in crushing dissent.
There were people who voted for Brexit because they felt the EU was a protectionist bloc, and they wanted more free trade.
There were people who voted for Brexit because they felt the EU was too free trade, and they wanted more protectionism.
There were people who voted for Brexit because they wanted less EU immigration.
And there were people who voted for Brexit because they felt democracy was diluted inside a big bloc.
People had different motivations for their votes.
https://www.newstatesman.com/world/europe/ukraine/2022/04/russia-cannot-afford-to-lose-so-we-need-a-kind-of-a-victory-sergey-karaganov-on-what-putin-wants
https://www.cnbc.com/2022/04/01/metas-ai-lab-loses-some-key-people.html
As I understand it - whilst it would be difficult for Russia to invade Finland, and Finland is well prepared to fight a land war, it would be outnumbered in the air. So their best option for their security is through joining NATO.
https://www.ft.com/content/94adcefa-1dd5-11e6-a7bc-ee846770ec15
Though the 'we can trade for it' globalists idea of Singapore on Thames was based upon a fantasy of what Singapore is rather than the reality.
And the reality of the current world has rather killed the dreams of the globalists.
But in western countries there are greater safeguards to it happening.
But it certainly is a game-changer, as if Mariupol etc wasn't enough.
How can they negotiate peace, which means a compromise, with atrocities like this?
https://yle.fi/news/3-12357832
If Finland Joins NATO, Sweden would effectively be freeriding in to bloc without any reciprocal obligations. It would be a bit like Ireland being able to rely on the UK for its defence because of its geographical position.
Ironically, the Sweden Democrats abandoning their long-held hostility to NATO could be the kiss of death. As the pariahs of politics they make a pro-NATO coalition unlikely.
Oh dear.
Rule No.1 of politics: never fall for your own propaganda.
> what is likely effect of economic impacts of war, sanctions, etc. on public opinion & politics?
> what is effect if war in still on-going, or at least actively hot, say six month from now (Oct 2022)
> is some form of associated or other less-than-total membership possible and/or desirable for Finns and/or Swedes, esp. for swing voters & politicos?
Because that's the nearest thing we have to a consensus plan.
Point I was making is that I can see why NATO membership might seem more compelling from a Finnish viewpoint than a Swedish one. The Finns I know (not many, admittedly) are very aware and proud of the Winter War but also aware that the Russians walked away with a big chunk of their country, despite their heroic efforts.
Sky have printed the papers with the story of the Tory MP hidden behind legal embargo, suggests someone is fighting back on this.
Pakistan prime minister about to fall. Just through the lens of his Putin support not a bad thing, but through a wider lens he seemed to have a lid on a split and chaotic country?
And something definitely is happening in Ukraine, to seize Chernobyl now surrender it cannot be Kremlins original plan, so the phrase “in some ways they have already lost” is spot on.
What has been described below in this thread as Liberterian wing of Tory Parliamentary party are pressuring government for tax cuts not deficit cuts, I think justifies what I said yesterday the budget was good because it was not driven by populism and ideology, but something closer to good old fashioned Conservative economic literacy - now there is a fight on to defend it.
Can we pause for a minute and think about what we have in common? I hope we can agree on a definition of evil. It is on display right now in Ukraine. Civilians with bound hands, shot and left for dead in the street. Apologies but here is a link if you don't believe me.
Forget Boris and partygate. Forget whether Starmer would be better. This is much more important.
I don't see how there can be a peace deal given the blood on Putin's hands. This ends when he is gone or everyone who stands up to him are.
I know very little of this debate but you can tell by looking at a map that it is far more in Finland's interest to join NATO, than Sweden's.
The trick now is to move forward. The current government are showing little inclination to do so. Time for a fresh government.
Surely the champagne corks must still be popping at the Daily Mail.
Unfortunately, the tactical genius of Dominic Cummings means that the UK has been given a map drawn by Escher and printed by Möbius.
I have come down with Covid this evening so am retreating to my bunker anyway for the next few days.
Goodnight
I know we disagree a lot, but I hope that you are soon up and running and posting again
Have a hot toddy
All those people who accused central and east Europeans of paranoia towards Russia ought to hang their heads in shame. There is a profound arrogance in assuming you know someone's neighbours better than they do themselves. Truth is those people had seen it all before. There was never any sign that Russia had changed. A kleptocratic elite that uses delinquents as cannon fodder. No doubt there will be the usual suspects saying we poked the bear (like we did in Chechnya and Syria?) how poor Russia has been humiliated by the west for 30/300/3000 years etc etc.
Something else. I can't help feel there has been a certain snobbery on display. A view in western Europe that Russians were BETTER than their fellow slavs. After all Russia gave us ballet, Tolstoy and Dostoyevsky. What have the Poles and Ukrainians given us? How dare they deign to criticise the great nation of Russia. What a bunch of upstarts. Now it wasn't just a matter of class or culture. Money mattered too and of course cheap gas. Russia has been infantilised by its energy resources removing any need to develop a modern economy. I hope Europeans now feel like Dr Frankenstein after he created the monster.
For KJH's benefit HYUFDs bunker is not located in Berlin
It will be painful, and it will cost the west, but Russia needs to be seen as an international pariah. Anything less is letting the murderous bastards get away with it.
First people to be investigated being Mandelson and Osborne.
And one of my primary school teachers.
Terrible. Bleak times.
GN all ❤️
Mick Ryan, AM
@WarintheFuture
The horrific scenes from #Bucha reinforce the contents of this piece. ICC & others will investigate, but Russian commanders were negligent, ethically corrupt & criminal. Bucha shows the Russian Army is not ‘professional’ nor do they deserve the term ‘soldiers’. 1/14
https://twitter.com/WarintheFuture/status/1510389051895193602
https://twitter.com/MacaesBruno/status/1510340694921129989
Graphic images in subsequent posts.
Plenty of those to HY! ❤️
Takes official numbers, multiples by 123820.....adds 18933....divides by 0.897.......computer says, they have f##king loads of COVID.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/mar/02/french-far-right-leader-marine-le-pen-forced-to-defend-putin-links
https://www.theguardian.com/world/ng-interactive/2022/apr/01/french-election-polls-who-is-leading-the-race-to-be-the-next-president-of-france#id=Emmanuel-Macron-Marine-Le-Pen
President invokes Brexit referendum result as Marine Le Pen rises in polls" (via Google search)
https://www.ft.com/content/bab03525-e085-491e-ad49-2477a22e75af
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-60941091
Over to you, Rishi
https://www.spiegel.de/international/europe/liberated-from-the-russians-a-visit-to-trostyanets-after-the-end-of-the-occupation-a-c088be53-5f6c-4059-8d46-68803276e473
Of course similar stories have come from occupied Donbas for many years, but have received far less attention. The idea of plebiscites in Russian occupied territory is a sick joke.
Ukraine gave us Khrushchev - for good or for ill - and a case could be made for Trotsky and Gorbachev as well.