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Le Pen and Zemmour still haven’t got enough nominations – politicalbetting.com

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  • QuincelQuincel Posts: 4,042
    EPG said:

    eek said:

    Quick typo Nominations close March 4th not Feb 4th.

    Also doesn't someone have enough spare nominations that he can push both Zemmour and Le Pen across the line - if so required.

    Bayrou announced that he signed for her over the weekend. He claims to have enough nominations to offer to Le Pen and Zemmour as well as Dupont-Aignan, all of whom would conveniently split the vote to the right of Macron.
    Also worth noting that the numbers Mike is citing (which are the latest anyone has) are from last Thursday. The official website is updated every Tuesday and Thursday, so the key will be in the next update whether Le Pen/Zemmour have had a big jump from Bayrou and Friends or not.
  • Nigelb said:

    Leon said:

    kle4 said:

    darkage said:

    I just found out today about Aleksandr Dugin, the author of Putin's 'Mein Kampf': Foundations Of Geopolitics.

    I'm guessing I'm just a really slow starter, and everyone else has already heard of him and his book?

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aleksandr_Dugin
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foundations_of_Geopolitics

    If anyone is in any doubt about the malign intentions of Putin and the current regime in Russia, they should investigate this book and its influence.
    From wiki


    Germany should be offered the de facto political dominance over most Protestant and Catholic states located within Central and Eastern Europe. Kaliningrad Oblast could be given back to Germany. The book uses the term "Moscow–Berlin axis".[9]
    France should be encouraged to form a bloc with Germany, as they both have a "firm anti-Atlanticist tradition".[9]
    The United Kingdom, merely described as an "extraterritorial floating base of the U.S.", should be cut off from Europe.[9]
    Finland should be absorbed into Russia. Southern Finland will be combined with the Republic of Karelia and northern Finland will be "donated to Murmansk Oblast".[9]
    Estonia should be given to Germany's sphere of influence.[9]
    Latvia and Lithuania should be given a "special status" in the Eurasian–Russian sphere.[9]
    Poland should be granted a "special status" in the Eurasian sphere.[9]
    Romania, North Macedonia, Serbia, "Serbian Bosnia" and Greece – "Orthodox collectivist East" – will unite with "Moscow the Third Rome" and reject the "rational-individualistic West".[9]
    Ukraine should be annexed by Russia because "Ukraine as a state has no geopolitical meaning, no particular cultural import or universal significance, no geographic uniqueness, no ethnic exclusiveness, its certain territorial ambitions represents an enormous danger for all of Eurasia and, without resolving the Ukrainian problem, it is in general senseless to speak about continental politics". Ukraine should not be allowed to remain independent, unless it is cordon sanitaire, which would be inadmissible
    I have to read Dugin. He sounds fun

    And Russia has successfully detached the UK from the EU, tho the consequent formation of a new English speaking global military alliance, AUKUS, is not on his wishlist, I see

    Also, this bit doesn't seem to be going especially well:

    China, which represents a danger to Russia, "must, to the maximum degree possible, be dismantled". Dugin suggests that Russia start by taking Tibet–Xinjiang–Inner Mongolia–Manchuria as a security belt.[1] Russia should offer China help "in a southern direction – Indochina (except Vietnam), the Philippines, Indonesia, Australia" as geopolitical compensation.[9]
    He sounds like a tw@t.
    Dugin is Russian for Blimp.
  • Leon said:

    kle4 said:

    darkage said:

    I just found out today about Aleksandr Dugin, the author of Putin's 'Mein Kampf': Foundations Of Geopolitics.

    I'm guessing I'm just a really slow starter, and everyone else has already heard of him and his book?

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aleksandr_Dugin
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foundations_of_Geopolitics

    If anyone is in any doubt about the malign intentions of Putin and the current regime in Russia, they should investigate this book and its influence.
    From wiki


    Germany should be offered the de facto political dominance over most Protestant and Catholic states located within Central and Eastern Europe. Kaliningrad Oblast could be given back to Germany. The book uses the term "Moscow–Berlin axis".[9]
    France should be encouraged to form a bloc with Germany, as they both have a "firm anti-Atlanticist tradition".[9]
    The United Kingdom, merely described as an "extraterritorial floating base of the U.S.", should be cut off from Europe.[9]
    Finland should be absorbed into Russia. Southern Finland will be combined with the Republic of Karelia and northern Finland will be "donated to Murmansk Oblast".[9]
    Estonia should be given to Germany's sphere of influence.[9]
    Latvia and Lithuania should be given a "special status" in the Eurasian–Russian sphere.[9]
    Poland should be granted a "special status" in the Eurasian sphere.[9]
    Romania, North Macedonia, Serbia, "Serbian Bosnia" and Greece – "Orthodox collectivist East" – will unite with "Moscow the Third Rome" and reject the "rational-individualistic West".[9]
    Ukraine should be annexed by Russia because "Ukraine as a state has no geopolitical meaning, no particular cultural import or universal significance, no geographic uniqueness, no ethnic exclusiveness, its certain territorial ambitions represents an enormous danger for all of Eurasia and, without resolving the Ukrainian problem, it is in general senseless to speak about continental politics". Ukraine should not be allowed to remain independent, unless it is cordon sanitaire, which would be inadmissible
    Hmmmm...

    Getting a "Foundations of the 19th Cent." vibe - the title is almost certainly a reference

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Foundations_of_the_Nineteenth_Century
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Houston_Stewart_Chamberlain
    It's easy to scoff at these books, but they have seriously influenced global history for the last couple of centuries

    Obvioiusly: Marx and Engels on Marxism &c

    Slightly less obviously: Gobineau, Darwin, Nietszche and Houston Chamberlain: major influences on Hitler and Nazism

    Modern anti-Semitism and general racism is often reliant on the works of a rather obscure but arguably brilliant Californian professor called Kevin Macdonald. His books (I promise) are genuinely eye-opening and challenging. I am sure he is a personal anti-Semite and I reject most of what he says. But not all. He is bloody clever and would be world famous, I suspect, if his political viewpoint wasn't so toxic (for entirely understandable reasons). I remember reading that on the retirement of the great Malaysian leader Mahathir Mohamad one book was found by his official bed: a book by Kevin Macdonald

    And now we see the same process with the Russian nationalists. This guy Dugin
    The book with the most disastrous impact might well Lenin's Imperialism, the Highest Stage of Capitalism (1917). Its theory has been comprehensively falsified but it provided the intellectual underpinnings for disastrous anti-capitalist and authoritarian regimes throughout the 20C.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,083
    Quincel said:

    EPG said:

    eek said:

    Quick typo Nominations close March 4th not Feb 4th.

    Also doesn't someone have enough spare nominations that he can push both Zemmour and Le Pen across the line - if so required.

    Bayrou announced that he signed for her over the weekend. He claims to have enough nominations to offer to Le Pen and Zemmour as well as Dupont-Aignan, all of whom would conveniently split the vote to the right of Macron.
    Also worth noting that the numbers Mike is citing (which are the latest anyone has) are from last Thursday. The official website is updated every Tuesday and Thursday, so the key will be in the next update whether Le Pen/Zemmour have had a big jump from Bayrou and Friends or not.
    So does that also mean if either are a bit short on Thursday they will be kept waiting until Tuesday to know if they've made it?
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,070
    edited February 2022
    rcs1000 said:

    Nigelb said:

    glw said:

    glw said:

    Chameleon said:

    https://twitter.com/MichaelBensonn/status/1498253075441754114

    Usyk joins Kyiv's defence. Can't we get Putin in a room with Usyk, Lomachenko, and the Klitschko brothers (all 4 of them millionaires many times over and signed up to territorial defence, 3 in Kyiv) and resolve this in a more civil manner?

    But Vlad has Steven. Once his corset is laced up he can take anyone.



    And Gerard Depardieu - which saddens me greatly because I thought he was an outstanding actor. Now I just think he is a thick ex-French twat.
    I skimmed that and for a moment there I thought you were saying that Steven Seagal "was an outstanding actor", which would quite possibly be the most preposterous thing ever posted on PB.
    I may often be wildly wrong in my views but even I am not that mad. :)
    I agree about Depardieu though, he was once a very fine actor.
    Which reminds me, the Dinklage version of Cyrano is absolute pants.

    Not his fault (& the rest of the cast are pretty good too), but the script is awful - Cyrano is barely more verbally dexterous than Christian. Utterly lacking in panache.
    The National did the score, though. Was that any good?
    Middling, but in context pointless. Or worse.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,368
    HYUFD said:

    biggles said:

    You know, we’re rapidly approaching the point that I want Ukraine in NATO, as should we all, not to help Ukraine but because they are hard as nails and I want them to have my back.

    Which while Russia has troops in there means we are then at war with Russia, leading to WW3 and potential nuclear war
    Will you change your narrative when Johnson and NATO change theirs?
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,277
    Nigelb said:

    Leon said:

    kle4 said:

    darkage said:

    I just found out today about Aleksandr Dugin, the author of Putin's 'Mein Kampf': Foundations Of Geopolitics.

    I'm guessing I'm just a really slow starter, and everyone else has already heard of him and his book?

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aleksandr_Dugin
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foundations_of_Geopolitics

    If anyone is in any doubt about the malign intentions of Putin and the current regime in Russia, they should investigate this book and its influence.
    From wiki


    Germany should be offered the de facto political dominance over most Protestant and Catholic states located within Central and Eastern Europe. Kaliningrad Oblast could be given back to Germany. The book uses the term "Moscow–Berlin axis".[9]
    France should be encouraged to form a bloc with Germany, as they both have a "firm anti-Atlanticist tradition".[9]
    The United Kingdom, merely described as an "extraterritorial floating base of the U.S.", should be cut off from Europe.[9]
    Finland should be absorbed into Russia. Southern Finland will be combined with the Republic of Karelia and northern Finland will be "donated to Murmansk Oblast".[9]
    Estonia should be given to Germany's sphere of influence.[9]
    Latvia and Lithuania should be given a "special status" in the Eurasian–Russian sphere.[9]
    Poland should be granted a "special status" in the Eurasian sphere.[9]
    Romania, North Macedonia, Serbia, "Serbian Bosnia" and Greece – "Orthodox collectivist East" – will unite with "Moscow the Third Rome" and reject the "rational-individualistic West".[9]
    Ukraine should be annexed by Russia because "Ukraine as a state has no geopolitical meaning, no particular cultural import or universal significance, no geographic uniqueness, no ethnic exclusiveness, its certain territorial ambitions represents an enormous danger for all of Eurasia and, without resolving the Ukrainian problem, it is in general senseless to speak about continental politics". Ukraine should not be allowed to remain independent, unless it is cordon sanitaire, which would be inadmissible
    I have to read Dugin. He sounds fun

    And Russia has successfully detached the UK from the EU, tho the consequent formation of a new English speaking global military alliance, AUKUS, is not on his wishlist, I see

    Also, this bit doesn't seem to be going especially well:

    China, which represents a danger to Russia, "must, to the maximum degree possible, be dismantled". Dugin suggests that Russia start by taking Tibet–Xinjiang–Inner Mongolia–Manchuria as a security belt.[1] Russia should offer China help "in a southern direction – Indochina (except Vietnam), the Philippines, Indonesia, Australia" as geopolitical compensation.[9]
    He sounds like a tw@t.
    Once again you have successfully avoided the label "intellectually inclined", I for one salute your indefatigability in this venture
  • StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 8,243
    Scott_xP said:

    That's cool. It means they can get from the Ukrainian border to the Channel for free.

    NOW OPEN THE BLOODY DOORS BORIS!!

    ...
    That’s unfair. But funny…
  • StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 8,243
    Scott_xP said:

    That's cool. It means they can get from the Ukrainian border to the Channel for free.

    NOW OPEN THE BLOODY DOORS BORIS!!

    ...
    That’s unfair. But funny…
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,083

    HYUFD said:

    biggles said:

    You know, we’re rapidly approaching the point that I want Ukraine in NATO, as should we all, not to help Ukraine but because they are hard as nails and I want them to have my back.

    Which while Russia has troops in there means we are then at war with Russia, leading to WW3 and potential nuclear war
    Will you change your narrative when Johnson and NATO change theirs?
    Actually on several points on this issue he is already wildly at variance with Boris, surprisingly.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,249
    Leon said:

    kle4 said:

    darkage said:

    I just found out today about Aleksandr Dugin, the author of Putin's 'Mein Kampf': Foundations Of Geopolitics.

    I'm guessing I'm just a really slow starter, and everyone else has already heard of him and his book?

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aleksandr_Dugin
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foundations_of_Geopolitics

    If anyone is in any doubt about the malign intentions of Putin and the current regime in Russia, they should investigate this book and its influence.
    From wiki


    Germany should be offered the de facto political dominance over most Protestant and Catholic states located within Central and Eastern Europe. Kaliningrad Oblast could be given back to Germany. The book uses the term "Moscow–Berlin axis".[9]
    France should be encouraged to form a bloc with Germany, as they both have a "firm anti-Atlanticist tradition".[9]
    The United Kingdom, merely described as an "extraterritorial floating base of the U.S.", should be cut off from Europe.[9]
    Finland should be absorbed into Russia. Southern Finland will be combined with the Republic of Karelia and northern Finland will be "donated to Murmansk Oblast".[9]
    Estonia should be given to Germany's sphere of influence.[9]
    Latvia and Lithuania should be given a "special status" in the Eurasian–Russian sphere.[9]
    Poland should be granted a "special status" in the Eurasian sphere.[9]
    Romania, North Macedonia, Serbia, "Serbian Bosnia" and Greece – "Orthodox collectivist East" – will unite with "Moscow the Third Rome" and reject the "rational-individualistic West".[9]
    Ukraine should be annexed by Russia because "Ukraine as a state has no geopolitical meaning, no particular cultural import or universal significance, no geographic uniqueness, no ethnic exclusiveness, its certain territorial ambitions represents an enormous danger for all of Eurasia and, without resolving the Ukrainian problem, it is in general senseless to speak about continental politics". Ukraine should not be allowed to remain independent, unless it is cordon sanitaire, which would be inadmissible
    Hmmmm...

    Getting a "Foundations of the 19th Cent." vibe - the title is almost certainly a reference

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Foundations_of_the_Nineteenth_Century
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Houston_Stewart_Chamberlain
    It's easy to scoff at these books, but they have seriously influenced global history for the last couple of centuries

    Obvioiusly: Marx and Engels on Marxism &c

    Slightly less obviously: Gobineau, Darwin, Nietszche and Houston Chamberlain: major influences on Hitler and Nazism

    Modern anti-Semitism and general racism is often reliant on the works of a rather obscure but arguably brilliant Californian professor called Kevin Macdonald. His books (I promise) are genuinely eye-opening and challenging. I am sure he is a personal anti-Semite and I reject most of what he says. But not all. He is bloody clever and would be world famous, I suspect, if his political viewpoint wasn't so toxic (for entirely understandable reasons). I remember reading that on the retirement of the great Malaysian leader Mahathir Mohamad one book was found by his official bed: a book by Kevin Macdonald

    And now we see the same process with the Russian nationalists. This guy Dugin
    You forgot Arthur Moeller van den Bruck - most people do, because Hitler tried to erase him and the fact that he's got there first.

    Yes, the same pseudo-scientific turgid bollocks goes round and round, like a turd that won't flush.

    Arguably the worst was Chamberlain - "Foundations of the 19th Cent." became the bible of Kaiser Fuckwit and chums before (arguably) giving us the adorable Hugo Boss fashionistas.....
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,918

    HYUFD said:

    biggles said:

    You know, we’re rapidly approaching the point that I want Ukraine in NATO, as should we all, not to help Ukraine but because they are hard as nails and I want them to have my back.

    Which while Russia has troops in there means we are then at war with Russia, leading to WW3 and potential nuclear war
    Will you change your narrative when Johnson and NATO change theirs?
    They won't, we are not going to war with Russia unless they invade Poland and maybe not even then.

    Putin is unlikely to invade a NATO state anyway beyond Ukraine the likeliest nation he would attack is Georgia
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,070
    Leon said:

    Nigelb said:

    Leon said:

    kle4 said:

    darkage said:

    I just found out today about Aleksandr Dugin, the author of Putin's 'Mein Kampf': Foundations Of Geopolitics.

    I'm guessing I'm just a really slow starter, and everyone else has already heard of him and his book?

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aleksandr_Dugin
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foundations_of_Geopolitics

    If anyone is in any doubt about the malign intentions of Putin and the current regime in Russia, they should investigate this book and its influence.
    From wiki


    Germany should be offered the de facto political dominance over most Protestant and Catholic states located within Central and Eastern Europe. Kaliningrad Oblast could be given back to Germany. The book uses the term "Moscow–Berlin axis".[9]
    France should be encouraged to form a bloc with Germany, as they both have a "firm anti-Atlanticist tradition".[9]
    The United Kingdom, merely described as an "extraterritorial floating base of the U.S.", should be cut off from Europe.[9]
    Finland should be absorbed into Russia. Southern Finland will be combined with the Republic of Karelia and northern Finland will be "donated to Murmansk Oblast".[9]
    Estonia should be given to Germany's sphere of influence.[9]
    Latvia and Lithuania should be given a "special status" in the Eurasian–Russian sphere.[9]
    Poland should be granted a "special status" in the Eurasian sphere.[9]
    Romania, North Macedonia, Serbia, "Serbian Bosnia" and Greece – "Orthodox collectivist East" – will unite with "Moscow the Third Rome" and reject the "rational-individualistic West".[9]
    Ukraine should be annexed by Russia because "Ukraine as a state has no geopolitical meaning, no particular cultural import or universal significance, no geographic uniqueness, no ethnic exclusiveness, its certain territorial ambitions represents an enormous danger for all of Eurasia and, without resolving the Ukrainian problem, it is in general senseless to speak about continental politics". Ukraine should not be allowed to remain independent, unless it is cordon sanitaire, which would be inadmissible
    I have to read Dugin. He sounds fun

    And Russia has successfully detached the UK from the EU, tho the consequent formation of a new English speaking global military alliance, AUKUS, is not on his wishlist, I see

    Also, this bit doesn't seem to be going especially well:

    China, which represents a danger to Russia, "must, to the maximum degree possible, be dismantled". Dugin suggests that Russia start by taking Tibet–Xinjiang–Inner Mongolia–Manchuria as a security belt.[1] Russia should offer China help "in a southern direction – Indochina (except Vietnam), the Philippines, Indonesia, Australia" as geopolitical compensation.[9]
    He sounds like a tw@t.
    Once again you have successfully avoided the label "intellectually inclined", I for one salute your indefatigability in this venture
    Apologies for my lack of interest in fascistic bullshit.
  • ChameleonChameleon Posts: 4,264
    Unlike some of the more learned members here, I was not alive and creating memories in the 80s. How does this compare? I assume that it's a decent few steps below, but have no real yardstick.
  • Leon said:

    Chameleon said:

    https://twitter.com/MichaelBensonn/status/1498253075441754114

    Usyk joins Kyiv's defence. Can't we get Putin in a room with Usyk, Lomachenko, and the Klitschko brothers (all 4 of them millionaires many times over and signed up to territorial defence, 3 in Kyiv) and resolve this in a more civil manner?

    But Vlad has Steven. Once his corset is laced up he can take anyone.



    And Gerard Depardieu - which saddens me greatly because I thought he was an outstanding actor. Now I just think he is a thick ex-French twat.
    He WAS an outstanding French actor. By far the greatest of his generation. He had an incredible back story from the slums of France. His acting in Jean De Florette is some of the greatest in French cinema. Fuck, all cinema

    But his demons defeated him in the end. He is now a fat, near-unemployable-alcoholic, mourning his favourite son who killed himself

    A melancholy narrative
    Absolutely agree about Jean De Florette. And his turn as Cyrano De Bergerac was one of the finest bits of acting ever put on film. He could also do comedy extremely well. If you ever get the chance hunt down Tenue de Soiree. Just brilliant.
  • RogerRoger Posts: 19,908
    Someone sent me this.....it made me smile broadly 'It's Farage.......'

    https://twitter.com/mcessak_/status/1373983151471665156

  • QuincelQuincel Posts: 4,042
    kle4 said:

    Quincel said:

    EPG said:

    eek said:

    Quick typo Nominations close March 4th not Feb 4th.

    Also doesn't someone have enough spare nominations that he can push both Zemmour and Le Pen across the line - if so required.

    Bayrou announced that he signed for her over the weekend. He claims to have enough nominations to offer to Le Pen and Zemmour as well as Dupont-Aignan, all of whom would conveniently split the vote to the right of Macron.
    Also worth noting that the numbers Mike is citing (which are the latest anyone has) are from last Thursday. The official website is updated every Tuesday and Thursday, so the key will be in the next update whether Le Pen/Zemmour have had a big jump from Bayrou and Friends or not.
    So does that also mean if either are a bit short on Thursday they will be kept waiting until Tuesday to know if they've made it?
    I'm honestly not sure. There is also a bit of lag between sponsorships being submitted and verified by the department or whatever, kind of like US campaigns getting all the signatures for ballot access, when you can lose a few so you want to clear the bar comfortably if it's nip and tuck.
  • BlancheLivermoreBlancheLivermore Posts: 5,915
    edited February 2022

    Nigelb said:

    Leon said:

    kle4 said:

    darkage said:

    I just found out today about Aleksandr Dugin, the author of Putin's 'Mein Kampf': Foundations Of Geopolitics.

    I'm guessing I'm just a really slow starter, and everyone else has already heard of him and his book?

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aleksandr_Dugin
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foundations_of_Geopolitics

    If anyone is in any doubt about the malign intentions of Putin and the current regime in Russia, they should investigate this book and its influence.
    From wiki


    Germany should be offered the de facto political dominance over most Protestant and Catholic states located within Central and Eastern Europe. Kaliningrad Oblast could be given back to Germany. The book uses the term "Moscow–Berlin axis".[9]
    France should be encouraged to form a bloc with Germany, as they both have a "firm anti-Atlanticist tradition".[9]
    The United Kingdom, merely described as an "extraterritorial floating base of the U.S.", should be cut off from Europe.[9]
    Finland should be absorbed into Russia. Southern Finland will be combined with the Republic of Karelia and northern Finland will be "donated to Murmansk Oblast".[9]
    Estonia should be given to Germany's sphere of influence.[9]
    Latvia and Lithuania should be given a "special status" in the Eurasian–Russian sphere.[9]
    Poland should be granted a "special status" in the Eurasian sphere.[9]
    Romania, North Macedonia, Serbia, "Serbian Bosnia" and Greece – "Orthodox collectivist East" – will unite with "Moscow the Third Rome" and reject the "rational-individualistic West".[9]
    Ukraine should be annexed by Russia because "Ukraine as a state has no geopolitical meaning, no particular cultural import or universal significance, no geographic uniqueness, no ethnic exclusiveness, its certain territorial ambitions represents an enormous danger for all of Eurasia and, without resolving the Ukrainian problem, it is in general senseless to speak about continental politics". Ukraine should not be allowed to remain independent, unless it is cordon sanitaire, which would be inadmissible
    I have to read Dugin. He sounds fun

    And Russia has successfully detached the UK from the EU, tho the consequent formation of a new English speaking global military alliance, AUKUS, is not on his wishlist, I see

    Also, this bit doesn't seem to be going especially well:

    China, which represents a danger to Russia, "must, to the maximum degree possible, be dismantled". Dugin suggests that Russia start by taking Tibet–Xinjiang–Inner Mongolia–Manchuria as a security belt.[1] Russia should offer China help "in a southern direction – Indochina (except Vietnam), the Philippines, Indonesia, Australia" as geopolitical compensation.[9]
    He sounds like a tw@t.
    Dugin is Russian for Blimp.
    Putin's Nazi "Nazi" hunter Utkin, appears to mean Ducky

    Утк is Russian for Duck
  • bigglesbiggles Posts: 6,051
    Chameleon said:

    Unlike some of the more learned members here, I was not alive and creating memories in the 80s. How does this compare? I assume that it's a decent few steps below, but have no real yardstick.

    I was young but I remember discussing nuclear war and our likely deaths with my parents. It’s brought those memories back.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,249
    Nigelb said:

    Leon said:

    Nigelb said:

    Leon said:

    kle4 said:

    darkage said:

    I just found out today about Aleksandr Dugin, the author of Putin's 'Mein Kampf': Foundations Of Geopolitics.

    I'm guessing I'm just a really slow starter, and everyone else has already heard of him and his book?

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aleksandr_Dugin
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foundations_of_Geopolitics

    If anyone is in any doubt about the malign intentions of Putin and the current regime in Russia, they should investigate this book and its influence.
    From wiki


    Germany should be offered the de facto political dominance over most Protestant and Catholic states located within Central and Eastern Europe. Kaliningrad Oblast could be given back to Germany. The book uses the term "Moscow–Berlin axis".[9]
    France should be encouraged to form a bloc with Germany, as they both have a "firm anti-Atlanticist tradition".[9]
    The United Kingdom, merely described as an "extraterritorial floating base of the U.S.", should be cut off from Europe.[9]
    Finland should be absorbed into Russia. Southern Finland will be combined with the Republic of Karelia and northern Finland will be "donated to Murmansk Oblast".[9]
    Estonia should be given to Germany's sphere of influence.[9]
    Latvia and Lithuania should be given a "special status" in the Eurasian–Russian sphere.[9]
    Poland should be granted a "special status" in the Eurasian sphere.[9]
    Romania, North Macedonia, Serbia, "Serbian Bosnia" and Greece – "Orthodox collectivist East" – will unite with "Moscow the Third Rome" and reject the "rational-individualistic West".[9]
    Ukraine should be annexed by Russia because "Ukraine as a state has no geopolitical meaning, no particular cultural import or universal significance, no geographic uniqueness, no ethnic exclusiveness, its certain territorial ambitions represents an enormous danger for all of Eurasia and, without resolving the Ukrainian problem, it is in general senseless to speak about continental politics". Ukraine should not be allowed to remain independent, unless it is cordon sanitaire, which would be inadmissible
    I have to read Dugin. He sounds fun

    And Russia has successfully detached the UK from the EU, tho the consequent formation of a new English speaking global military alliance, AUKUS, is not on his wishlist, I see

    Also, this bit doesn't seem to be going especially well:

    China, which represents a danger to Russia, "must, to the maximum degree possible, be dismantled". Dugin suggests that Russia start by taking Tibet–Xinjiang–Inner Mongolia–Manchuria as a security belt.[1] Russia should offer China help "in a southern direction – Indochina (except Vietnam), the Philippines, Indonesia, Australia" as geopolitical compensation.[9]
    He sounds like a tw@t.
    Once again you have successfully avoided the label "intellectually inclined", I for one salute your indefatigability in this venture
    Apologies for my lack of interest in fascistic bullshit.
    I suspect that it is like all such works - from the few quotes I have seen on line, it is much in the style of other such books. Superficially interesting to those with half a brain.

    Why do they have to write such big lumps? Surely "I am a turgid racist and here is my dream Risk campaign to carve up the world based on my demented racism and ignorance" would do the trick?
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,277

    Leon said:

    kle4 said:

    darkage said:

    I just found out today about Aleksandr Dugin, the author of Putin's 'Mein Kampf': Foundations Of Geopolitics.

    I'm guessing I'm just a really slow starter, and everyone else has already heard of him and his book?

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aleksandr_Dugin
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foundations_of_Geopolitics

    If anyone is in any doubt about the malign intentions of Putin and the current regime in Russia, they should investigate this book and its influence.
    From wiki


    Germany should be offered the de facto political dominance over most Protestant and Catholic states located within Central and Eastern Europe. Kaliningrad Oblast could be given back to Germany. The book uses the term "Moscow–Berlin axis".[9]
    France should be encouraged to form a bloc with Germany, as they both have a "firm anti-Atlanticist tradition".[9]
    The United Kingdom, merely described as an "extraterritorial floating base of the U.S.", should be cut off from Europe.[9]
    Finland should be absorbed into Russia. Southern Finland will be combined with the Republic of Karelia and northern Finland will be "donated to Murmansk Oblast".[9]
    Estonia should be given to Germany's sphere of influence.[9]
    Latvia and Lithuania should be given a "special status" in the Eurasian–Russian sphere.[9]
    Poland should be granted a "special status" in the Eurasian sphere.[9]
    Romania, North Macedonia, Serbia, "Serbian Bosnia" and Greece – "Orthodox collectivist East" – will unite with "Moscow the Third Rome" and reject the "rational-individualistic West".[9]
    Ukraine should be annexed by Russia because "Ukraine as a state has no geopolitical meaning, no particular cultural import or universal significance, no geographic uniqueness, no ethnic exclusiveness, its certain territorial ambitions represents an enormous danger for all of Eurasia and, without resolving the Ukrainian problem, it is in general senseless to speak about continental politics". Ukraine should not be allowed to remain independent, unless it is cordon sanitaire, which would be inadmissible
    Hmmmm...

    Getting a "Foundations of the 19th Cent." vibe - the title is almost certainly a reference

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Foundations_of_the_Nineteenth_Century
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Houston_Stewart_Chamberlain
    It's easy to scoff at these books, but they have seriously influenced global history for the last couple of centuries

    Obvioiusly: Marx and Engels on Marxism &c

    Slightly less obviously: Gobineau, Darwin, Nietszche and Houston Chamberlain: major influences on Hitler and Nazism

    Modern anti-Semitism and general racism is often reliant on the works of a rather obscure but arguably brilliant Californian professor called Kevin Macdonald. His books (I promise) are genuinely eye-opening and challenging. I am sure he is a personal anti-Semite and I reject most of what he says. But not all. He is bloody clever and would be world famous, I suspect, if his political viewpoint wasn't so toxic (for entirely understandable reasons). I remember reading that on the retirement of the great Malaysian leader Mahathir Mohamad one book was found by his official bed: a book by Kevin Macdonald

    And now we see the same process with the Russian nationalists. This guy Dugin
    The book with the most disastrous impact might well Lenin's Imperialism, the Highest Stage of Capitalism (1917). Its theory has been comprehensively falsified but it provided the intellectual underpinnings for disastrous anti-capitalist and authoritarian regimes throughout the 20C.
    Indeed

    Another bunch of books that fucked a chunk of the world is the slew of lazy Marxist, structuralist, existentialist crap that sewered out of Paris in the early post war era. Nothing matters. Money is stupid. Capitalism is a dead end. Only the moment is of concern. Fuck America. Yay for Mao

    A lot of Indochinese students in Paris read this bilge, took it seriously, and returned it to Cambodia, and caused one of the greatest tragedies in human history. Even as Sartre lived on in Paris eating oysters on the Left Bank
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,277
    Nigelb said:

    Leon said:

    Nigelb said:

    Leon said:

    kle4 said:

    darkage said:

    I just found out today about Aleksandr Dugin, the author of Putin's 'Mein Kampf': Foundations Of Geopolitics.

    I'm guessing I'm just a really slow starter, and everyone else has already heard of him and his book?

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aleksandr_Dugin
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foundations_of_Geopolitics

    If anyone is in any doubt about the malign intentions of Putin and the current regime in Russia, they should investigate this book and its influence.
    From wiki


    Germany should be offered the de facto political dominance over most Protestant and Catholic states located within Central and Eastern Europe. Kaliningrad Oblast could be given back to Germany. The book uses the term "Moscow–Berlin axis".[9]
    France should be encouraged to form a bloc with Germany, as they both have a "firm anti-Atlanticist tradition".[9]
    The United Kingdom, merely described as an "extraterritorial floating base of the U.S.", should be cut off from Europe.[9]
    Finland should be absorbed into Russia. Southern Finland will be combined with the Republic of Karelia and northern Finland will be "donated to Murmansk Oblast".[9]
    Estonia should be given to Germany's sphere of influence.[9]
    Latvia and Lithuania should be given a "special status" in the Eurasian–Russian sphere.[9]
    Poland should be granted a "special status" in the Eurasian sphere.[9]
    Romania, North Macedonia, Serbia, "Serbian Bosnia" and Greece – "Orthodox collectivist East" – will unite with "Moscow the Third Rome" and reject the "rational-individualistic West".[9]
    Ukraine should be annexed by Russia because "Ukraine as a state has no geopolitical meaning, no particular cultural import or universal significance, no geographic uniqueness, no ethnic exclusiveness, its certain territorial ambitions represents an enormous danger for all of Eurasia and, without resolving the Ukrainian problem, it is in general senseless to speak about continental politics". Ukraine should not be allowed to remain independent, unless it is cordon sanitaire, which would be inadmissible
    I have to read Dugin. He sounds fun

    And Russia has successfully detached the UK from the EU, tho the consequent formation of a new English speaking global military alliance, AUKUS, is not on his wishlist, I see

    Also, this bit doesn't seem to be going especially well:

    China, which represents a danger to Russia, "must, to the maximum degree possible, be dismantled". Dugin suggests that Russia start by taking Tibet–Xinjiang–Inner Mongolia–Manchuria as a security belt.[1] Russia should offer China help "in a southern direction – Indochina (except Vietnam), the Philippines, Indonesia, Australia" as geopolitical compensation.[9]
    He sounds like a tw@t.
    Once again you have successfully avoided the label "intellectually inclined", I for one salute your indefatigability in this venture
    Apologies for my lack of interest in fascistic bullshit.
    You're just not the brightest penny in the purse, and you're not particularly curious about things beyond your established experience. No apology needed. A world full of questing intellectuals would be pretty grim. We've seen what it does
  • pigeonpigeon Posts: 4,839
    stodge said:

    Chameleon said:

    https://twitter.com/KyivIndependent/status/1498416657672323073

    "⚡️Zelensky: In five days of invasion, Ukraine was struck by 56 missile strikes, 113 cruise missiles were fired.

    The complete closure of the sky for Russian missiles, planes and helicopters must be considered."

    I suspect that this is where Zelensky's asking for things previously regarded as miracles approach runs out of road.

    He's not going to get a no-fly zone or the interdiction of Russian missiles by NATO.

    NATO cannot get drawn into a possible direct confrontation with Russia, no matter how weak we think Russia is or how much we want Putin gone, the risks for all of us in Europe and the world are just too great.

    Russia has NOT attacked a NATO member - that's a line Putin hasn't crossed. There's no reason for us to cross it.

    The outcome has to be a political compromise which by its very nature will please no one but with which we will all be able to live. We should be thinking now about post-Putin Russia.
    At this point, it is worth nothing that the talks in Belarus did not terminate with either side walking off in a huff, despite the fact that the opening positions of both sides amounted to capitulation by the other. They are coming back for a second go (tomorrow, I presume.)

    I don't know - there's a very long way to go in all of this, and an eventual (slow and brutal) conquest of Ukraine looks like the more probable outcome - but if the Ukrainians are willing to let go of Crimea and NATO membership, and the Russians in return are willing to backpedal into a UN-mediated compromise over the Donbas and let Ukraine proceed with its application to join the EU, then there might just be room for Putin to back down.
  • "Successful Tory female politicians"

    Is the Right Hon. Liz Truss MP really in this category?

    Granted, she IS (currently) Foreign Secretary, but under recent Tory administrations this has become something of a joke office? As epitomized when it was held by that great comedian, Boris Johnson.

    Of interest mainly for the Big House that comes with the job?

    Liz Truss is barely making news in the UK, even in the throes of a first-rate international crisis. She's virtually invisible in the US right now, as is Boris Johnson.


    She is making the news tonight alright with Russia's attempt to blame her for nuclear weapons move and I am not sure that it is doing her any harm

    She is not my choice to replace Boris but she has her followers

    And on Boris not making the news in the US, Biden is not here either
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,070
    Leon said:

    Nigelb said:

    Leon said:

    Nigelb said:

    Leon said:

    kle4 said:

    darkage said:

    I just found out today about Aleksandr Dugin, the author of Putin's 'Mein Kampf': Foundations Of Geopolitics.

    I'm guessing I'm just a really slow starter, and everyone else has already heard of him and his book?

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aleksandr_Dugin
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foundations_of_Geopolitics

    If anyone is in any doubt about the malign intentions of Putin and the current regime in Russia, they should investigate this book and its influence.
    From wiki


    Germany should be offered the de facto political dominance over most Protestant and Catholic states located within Central and Eastern Europe. Kaliningrad Oblast could be given back to Germany. The book uses the term "Moscow–Berlin axis".[9]
    France should be encouraged to form a bloc with Germany, as they both have a "firm anti-Atlanticist tradition".[9]
    The United Kingdom, merely described as an "extraterritorial floating base of the U.S.", should be cut off from Europe.[9]
    Finland should be absorbed into Russia. Southern Finland will be combined with the Republic of Karelia and northern Finland will be "donated to Murmansk Oblast".[9]
    Estonia should be given to Germany's sphere of influence.[9]
    Latvia and Lithuania should be given a "special status" in the Eurasian–Russian sphere.[9]
    Poland should be granted a "special status" in the Eurasian sphere.[9]
    Romania, North Macedonia, Serbia, "Serbian Bosnia" and Greece – "Orthodox collectivist East" – will unite with "Moscow the Third Rome" and reject the "rational-individualistic West".[9]
    Ukraine should be annexed by Russia because "Ukraine as a state has no geopolitical meaning, no particular cultural import or universal significance, no geographic uniqueness, no ethnic exclusiveness, its certain territorial ambitions represents an enormous danger for all of Eurasia and, without resolving the Ukrainian problem, it is in general senseless to speak about continental politics". Ukraine should not be allowed to remain independent, unless it is cordon sanitaire, which would be inadmissible
    I have to read Dugin. He sounds fun

    And Russia has successfully detached the UK from the EU, tho the consequent formation of a new English speaking global military alliance, AUKUS, is not on his wishlist, I see

    Also, this bit doesn't seem to be going especially well:

    China, which represents a danger to Russia, "must, to the maximum degree possible, be dismantled". Dugin suggests that Russia start by taking Tibet–Xinjiang–Inner Mongolia–Manchuria as a security belt.[1] Russia should offer China help "in a southern direction – Indochina (except Vietnam), the Philippines, Indonesia, Australia" as geopolitical compensation.[9]
    He sounds like a tw@t.
    Once again you have successfully avoided the label "intellectually inclined", I for one salute your indefatigability in this venture
    Apologies for my lack of interest in fascistic bullshit.
    You're just not the brightest penny in the purse, and you're not particularly curious about things beyond your established experience. No apology needed. A world full of questing intellectuals would be pretty grim. We've seen what it does
    Sparkling stuff from you tonight.
  • Leon said:

    Leon said:

    kle4 said:

    darkage said:

    I just found out today about Aleksandr Dugin, the author of Putin's 'Mein Kampf': Foundations Of Geopolitics.

    I'm guessing I'm just a really slow starter, and everyone else has already heard of him and his book?

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aleksandr_Dugin
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foundations_of_Geopolitics

    If anyone is in any doubt about the malign intentions of Putin and the current regime in Russia, they should investigate this book and its influence.
    From wiki


    Germany should be offered the de facto political dominance over most Protestant and Catholic states located within Central and Eastern Europe. Kaliningrad Oblast could be given back to Germany. The book uses the term "Moscow–Berlin axis".[9]
    France should be encouraged to form a bloc with Germany, as they both have a "firm anti-Atlanticist tradition".[9]
    The United Kingdom, merely described as an "extraterritorial floating base of the U.S.", should be cut off from Europe.[9]
    Finland should be absorbed into Russia. Southern Finland will be combined with the Republic of Karelia and northern Finland will be "donated to Murmansk Oblast".[9]
    Estonia should be given to Germany's sphere of influence.[9]
    Latvia and Lithuania should be given a "special status" in the Eurasian–Russian sphere.[9]
    Poland should be granted a "special status" in the Eurasian sphere.[9]
    Romania, North Macedonia, Serbia, "Serbian Bosnia" and Greece – "Orthodox collectivist East" – will unite with "Moscow the Third Rome" and reject the "rational-individualistic West".[9]
    Ukraine should be annexed by Russia because "Ukraine as a state has no geopolitical meaning, no particular cultural import or universal significance, no geographic uniqueness, no ethnic exclusiveness, its certain territorial ambitions represents an enormous danger for all of Eurasia and, without resolving the Ukrainian problem, it is in general senseless to speak about continental politics". Ukraine should not be allowed to remain independent, unless it is cordon sanitaire, which would be inadmissible
    Hmmmm...

    Getting a "Foundations of the 19th Cent." vibe - the title is almost certainly a reference

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Foundations_of_the_Nineteenth_Century
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Houston_Stewart_Chamberlain
    It's easy to scoff at these books, but they have seriously influenced global history for the last couple of centuries

    Obvioiusly: Marx and Engels on Marxism &c

    Slightly less obviously: Gobineau, Darwin, Nietszche and Houston Chamberlain: major influences on Hitler and Nazism

    Modern anti-Semitism and general racism is often reliant on the works of a rather obscure but arguably brilliant Californian professor called Kevin Macdonald. His books (I promise) are genuinely eye-opening and challenging. I am sure he is a personal anti-Semite and I reject most of what he says. But not all. He is bloody clever and would be world famous, I suspect, if his political viewpoint wasn't so toxic (for entirely understandable reasons). I remember reading that on the retirement of the great Malaysian leader Mahathir Mohamad one book was found by his official bed: a book by Kevin Macdonald

    And now we see the same process with the Russian nationalists. This guy Dugin
    The book with the most disastrous impact might well Lenin's Imperialism, the Highest Stage of Capitalism (1917). Its theory has been comprehensively falsified but it provided the intellectual underpinnings for disastrous anti-capitalist and authoritarian regimes throughout the 20C.
    Indeed

    Another bunch of books that fucked a chunk of the world is the slew of lazy Marxist, structuralist, existentialist crap that sewered out of Paris in the early post war era. Nothing matters. Money is stupid. Capitalism is a dead end. Only the moment is of concern. Fuck America. Yay for Mao

    A lot of Indochinese students in Paris read this bilge, took it seriously, and returned it to Cambodia, and caused one of the greatest tragedies in human history. Even as Sartre lived on in Paris eating oysters on the Left Bank
    I'm team Camus on this one.

  • Nigelb said:

    Leon said:

    kle4 said:

    darkage said:

    I just found out today about Aleksandr Dugin, the author of Putin's 'Mein Kampf': Foundations Of Geopolitics.

    I'm guessing I'm just a really slow starter, and everyone else has already heard of him and his book?

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aleksandr_Dugin
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foundations_of_Geopolitics

    If anyone is in any doubt about the malign intentions of Putin and the current regime in Russia, they should investigate this book and its influence.
    From wiki


    Germany should be offered the de facto political dominance over most Protestant and Catholic states located within Central and Eastern Europe. Kaliningrad Oblast could be given back to Germany. The book uses the term "Moscow–Berlin axis".[9]
    France should be encouraged to form a bloc with Germany, as they both have a "firm anti-Atlanticist tradition".[9]
    The United Kingdom, merely described as an "extraterritorial floating base of the U.S.", should be cut off from Europe.[9]
    Finland should be absorbed into Russia. Southern Finland will be combined with the Republic of Karelia and northern Finland will be "donated to Murmansk Oblast".[9]
    Estonia should be given to Germany's sphere of influence.[9]
    Latvia and Lithuania should be given a "special status" in the Eurasian–Russian sphere.[9]
    Poland should be granted a "special status" in the Eurasian sphere.[9]
    Romania, North Macedonia, Serbia, "Serbian Bosnia" and Greece – "Orthodox collectivist East" – will unite with "Moscow the Third Rome" and reject the "rational-individualistic West".[9]
    Ukraine should be annexed by Russia because "Ukraine as a state has no geopolitical meaning, no particular cultural import or universal significance, no geographic uniqueness, no ethnic exclusiveness, its certain territorial ambitions represents an enormous danger for all of Eurasia and, without resolving the Ukrainian problem, it is in general senseless to speak about continental politics". Ukraine should not be allowed to remain independent, unless it is cordon sanitaire, which would be inadmissible
    I have to read Dugin. He sounds fun

    And Russia has successfully detached the UK from the EU, tho the consequent formation of a new English speaking global military alliance, AUKUS, is not on his wishlist, I see

    Also, this bit doesn't seem to be going especially well:

    China, which represents a danger to Russia, "must, to the maximum degree possible, be dismantled". Dugin suggests that Russia start by taking Tibet–Xinjiang–Inner Mongolia–Manchuria as a security belt.[1] Russia should offer China help "in a southern direction – Indochina (except Vietnam), the Philippines, Indonesia, Australia" as geopolitical compensation.[9]
    He sounds like a tw@t.
    Dugin is Russian for Blimp.
    Putin's Nazi "Nazi" hunter Utkin, appears to mean Ducky

    Утк is Russian for Duck
    I mean, Dugin = Blimp as in Colonel Blimp.

    Neo Third-Rome Pan-Slavismnot too far spiritually from neo British-Empire-League Imperialism.
  • RogerRoger Posts: 19,908
    What a year Nadal's having!
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,249
    biggles said:

    Chameleon said:

    Unlike some of the more learned members here, I was not alive and creating memories in the 80s. How does this compare? I assume that it's a decent few steps below, but have no real yardstick.

    I was young but I remember discussing nuclear war and our likely deaths with my parents. It’s brought those memories back.
    The living dead on the Kremlin Wall had more style than Putin. They wouldn't have been seen dead in the silly Bond movie sets he inhabits.

    The chap on Moscow Radio reading out anti-capitalist rhetoric had good grammar and, one suspects, a huge pair of glasses with massive rims - see the Two Ronnies.

    There was very little of the school-playground stuff about the new hyper secret hyper special weapon that will Destroy! America! Just a voice over on Red Square parades about the desire for peace of All! The! People! of! the! Soviet! Union!

  • Leon said:

    Leon said:

    kle4 said:

    darkage said:

    I just found out today about Aleksandr Dugin, the author of Putin's 'Mein Kampf': Foundations Of Geopolitics.

    I'm guessing I'm just a really slow starter, and everyone else has already heard of him and his book?

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aleksandr_Dugin
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foundations_of_Geopolitics

    If anyone is in any doubt about the malign intentions of Putin and the current regime in Russia, they should investigate this book and its influence.
    From wiki


    Germany should be offered the de facto political dominance over most Protestant and Catholic states located within Central and Eastern Europe. Kaliningrad Oblast could be given back to Germany. The book uses the term "Moscow–Berlin axis".[9]
    France should be encouraged to form a bloc with Germany, as they both have a "firm anti-Atlanticist tradition".[9]
    The United Kingdom, merely described as an "extraterritorial floating base of the U.S.", should be cut off from Europe.[9]
    Finland should be absorbed into Russia. Southern Finland will be combined with the Republic of Karelia and northern Finland will be "donated to Murmansk Oblast".[9]
    Estonia should be given to Germany's sphere of influence.[9]
    Latvia and Lithuania should be given a "special status" in the Eurasian–Russian sphere.[9]
    Poland should be granted a "special status" in the Eurasian sphere.[9]
    Romania, North Macedonia, Serbia, "Serbian Bosnia" and Greece – "Orthodox collectivist East" – will unite with "Moscow the Third Rome" and reject the "rational-individualistic West".[9]
    Ukraine should be annexed by Russia because "Ukraine as a state has no geopolitical meaning, no particular cultural import or universal significance, no geographic uniqueness, no ethnic exclusiveness, its certain territorial ambitions represents an enormous danger for all of Eurasia and, without resolving the Ukrainian problem, it is in general senseless to speak about continental politics". Ukraine should not be allowed to remain independent, unless it is cordon sanitaire, which would be inadmissible
    Hmmmm...

    Getting a "Foundations of the 19th Cent." vibe - the title is almost certainly a reference

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Foundations_of_the_Nineteenth_Century
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Houston_Stewart_Chamberlain
    It's easy to scoff at these books, but they have seriously influenced global history for the last couple of centuries

    Obvioiusly: Marx and Engels on Marxism &c

    Slightly less obviously: Gobineau, Darwin, Nietszche and Houston Chamberlain: major influences on Hitler and Nazism

    Modern anti-Semitism and general racism is often reliant on the works of a rather obscure but arguably brilliant Californian professor called Kevin Macdonald. His books (I promise) are genuinely eye-opening and challenging. I am sure he is a personal anti-Semite and I reject most of what he says. But not all. He is bloody clever and would be world famous, I suspect, if his political viewpoint wasn't so toxic (for entirely understandable reasons). I remember reading that on the retirement of the great Malaysian leader Mahathir Mohamad one book was found by his official bed: a book by Kevin Macdonald

    And now we see the same process with the Russian nationalists. This guy Dugin
    The book with the most disastrous impact might well Lenin's Imperialism, the Highest Stage of Capitalism (1917). Its theory has been comprehensively falsified but it provided the intellectual underpinnings for disastrous anti-capitalist and authoritarian regimes throughout the 20C.
    Indeed

    Another bunch of books that fucked a chunk of the world is the slew of lazy Marxist, structuralist, existentialist crap that sewered out of Paris in the early post war era. Nothing matters. Money is stupid. Capitalism is a dead end. Only the moment is of concern. Fuck America. Yay for Mao

    A lot of Indochinese students in Paris read this bilge, took it seriously, and returned it to Cambodia, and caused one of the greatest tragedies in human history. Even as Sartre lived on in Paris eating oysters on the Left Bank
    I'm team Camus on this one.

    :smile: Pretty decent footballer too.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,918

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    biggles said:

    You know, we’re rapidly approaching the point that I want Ukraine in NATO, as should we all, not to help Ukraine but because they are hard as nails and I want them to have my back.

    Which while Russia has troops in there means we are then at war with Russia, leading to WW3 and potential nuclear war
    Will you change your narrative when Johnson and NATO change theirs?
    They won't, we are not going to war with Russia unless they invade Poland and maybe not even then.

    Putin is unlikely to invade a NATO state anyway beyond Ukraine the likeliest nation he would attack is Georgia
    If Poland is invaded and NATO run away, I can safely say Putin will be emboldened. That being the case he really won't give a ****!

    Poland will be defended, the Baltic States will be defended. Ukraine should be defended with a no fly zone. The consequences might be unthinkable, but that bridge needs to be crossed when it is reached.
    There is zero chance of NATO imposing a no fly zone over Ukraine with the Russian military and airforce already there. Even defending Poland and the Baltic States is only a 50% chance.

    Western Europe's defence is guaranteed, beyond that there is no certainty
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,714
    edited February 2022
    Incredible footage of ordinary unarmed Ukr peeps telling RU troops to just fuck off back to their own country. The soldiers just stand there. Lost. Clutching guns. The officer attempts to pat them on the shoulders to keep them going. They look haunted and lost. A long way from their real home and utterly not signed up to this bollx.



    https://www.nytimes.com/live/2022/02/28/world/ukraine-russia-war#ukrainian-civilians-protest-russian-troops-who-occupied-a-coastal-city


    Putin has lost this already. Just about how it ends now.

  • mwadamsmwadams Posts: 3,590
    biggles said:

    Chameleon said:

    Unlike some of the more learned members here, I was not alive and creating memories in the 80s. How does this compare? I assume that it's a decent few steps below, but have no real yardstick.

    I was young but I remember discussing nuclear war and our likely deaths with my parents. It’s brought those memories back.
    No. This is pretty much the same. Except this time I'm the parent pretending there's nothing to worry about (which technically there isn't - we're fine or instantly dead; not something I've had to address yet.)
  • FrankBoothFrankBooth Posts: 9,826

    Incredible footage of ordinary unarmed Ukr peeps telling RU troops to just fuck off back to their own country.


    https://www.nytimes.com/live/2022/02/28/world/ukraine-russia-war#ukrainian-civilians-protest-russian-troops-who-occupied-a-coastal-city


    Putin has lost this already. Just about how it ends now.

    The trouble is he has massive weaponry.
  • HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    biggles said:

    You know, we’re rapidly approaching the point that I want Ukraine in NATO, as should we all, not to help Ukraine but because they are hard as nails and I want them to have my back.

    Which while Russia has troops in there means we are then at war with Russia, leading to WW3 and potential nuclear war
    Will you change your narrative when Johnson and NATO change theirs?
    They won't, we are not going to war with Russia unless they invade Poland and maybe not even then.

    Putin is unlikely to invade a NATO state anyway beyond Ukraine the likeliest nation he would attack is Georgia
    If Poland is invaded and NATO run away, I can safely say Putin will be emboldened. That being the case he really won't give a ****!

    Poland will be defended, the Baltic States will be defended. Ukraine should be defended with a no fly zone. The consequences might be unthinkable, but that bridge needs to be crossed when it is reached.
    There is zero chance of NATO imposing a no fly zone over Ukraine with the Russian military and airforce already there. Even defending Poland and the Baltic States is only a 50% chance.

    Western Europe's defence is guaranteed, beyond that there is no certainty
    Any attack on a NATO state will be answered by the whole of NATO not least as it is a treaty condition

    Attack Poland and it becomes NATO v Russia
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    Kevin Macdonald was, of course, a practicioner of evo psych.

    This is my shocked face.
  • Scott_xP said:

    That's cool. It means they can get from the Ukrainian border to the Channel for free.

    NOW OPEN THE BLOODY DOORS BORIS!!

    ...
    That’s unfair. But funny…
    She's also send you the electricity bill.

  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,625

    Incredible footage of ordinary unarmed Ukr peeps telling RU troops to just fuck off back to their own country. The soldiers just stand there. Lost. Clutching guns. The officer attempts to pat them on the shoulders to keep them going. They look haunted and lost. A long way from their real home and utterly not signed up to this bollx.


    https://www.nytimes.com/live/2022/02/28/world/ukraine-russia-war#ukrainian-civilians-protest-russian-troops-who-occupied-a-coastal-city


    Putin has lost this already. Just about how it ends now.

    Perhaps the biggest risk for him is that spirit of defiance spreading to Russia, like a repeat of 1989.
  • geoffwgeoffw Posts: 8,717

    Incredible footage of ordinary unarmed Ukr peeps telling RU troops to just fuck off back to their own country. The soldiers just stand there. Lost. Clutching guns. The officer attempts to pat them on the shoulders to keep them going. They look haunted and lost. A long way from their real home and utterly not signed up to this bollx.



    https://www.nytimes.com/live/2022/02/28/world/ukraine-russia-war#ukrainian-civilians-protest-russian-troops-who-occupied-a-coastal-city


    Putin has lost this already. Just about how it ends now.

    With a bang or a whimper?

  • Nigelb said:

    Scott_xP said:

    ...

    Is Matt trying to terrify Putin ?
    More like they play Belarus for the rest of their lives.

  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,625
    @ASLuhn
    Bulgaria will give Ukraine 14 Su-25 & 16 MiG-29 fighter jets, Poland will give it 28 MiG-29s & Slovakia will give it 12 MiG-29s. More importantly--given Russian missile strikes on military airbases--they can fly missions over Ukraine from Poland


    https://twitter.com/ASLuhn/status/1498409887205937155
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,918
    edited February 2022

    Incredible footage of ordinary unarmed Ukr peeps telling RU troops to just fuck off back to their own country.


    https://www.nytimes.com/live/2022/02/28/world/ukraine-russia-war#ukrainian-civilians-protest-russian-troops-who-occupied-a-coastal-city


    Putin has lost this already. Just about how it ends now.

    The trouble is he has massive weaponry.
    Indeed, all he has mainly sent in so far is conscripts with limited air support.

    Most of the elite Russian troops have not been sent to Kyiv. If it does not fall within a week they will be after a massive aerial bombing campaign and supported by heavy artillery and Russian tanks.

    It is not over by any means, in reality the war has barely begun
  • Incredible footage of ordinary unarmed Ukr peeps telling RU troops to just fuck off back to their own country.


    https://www.nytimes.com/live/2022/02/28/world/ukraine-russia-war#ukrainian-civilians-protest-russian-troops-who-occupied-a-coastal-city


    Putin has lost this already. Just about how it ends now.

    The trouble is he has massive weaponry.
    The trouble is he's a massive weapon.
  • To those blaming this on NATO expansion, maybe pause and think about that?

  • bigglesbiggles Posts: 6,051
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    biggles said:

    You know, we’re rapidly approaching the point that I want Ukraine in NATO, as should we all, not to help Ukraine but because they are hard as nails and I want them to have my back.

    Which while Russia has troops in there means we are then at war with Russia, leading to WW3 and potential nuclear war
    Will you change your narrative when Johnson and NATO change theirs?
    They won't, we are not going to war with Russia unless they invade Poland and maybe not even then.

    Putin is unlikely to invade a NATO state anyway beyond Ukraine the likeliest nation he would attack is Georgia
    If Poland is invaded and NATO run away, I can safely say Putin will be emboldened. That being the case he really won't give a ****!

    Poland will be defended, the Baltic States will be defended. Ukraine should be defended with a no fly zone. The consequences might be unthinkable, but that bridge needs to be crossed when it is reached.
    There is zero chance of NATO imposing a no fly zone over Ukraine with the Russian military and airforce already there. Even defending Poland and the Baltic States is only a 50% chance.

    Western Europe's defence is guaranteed, beyond that there is no certainty
    In your mind Poland is 50/50? What was your issue with Corbyn again? Seems like you’re a fellow traveller on defence. You certainly don’t believe in NATO.
  • LDLFLDLF Posts: 160
    edited February 2022
    Further to the Dugin references...

    Interesting map here by Peter Zeihan (forecaster, https://zeihan.com/) of Russia's desired borders, from Putin's point of view. Not to say this will be achieved, but that this is Putin's ideal scenario, and what Putin sees as essential to Russian 'survival'.

    https://zeihan.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/01/6.1-russias-desired-borders.jpg

    Zeihan predicts a Russian collapse no matter what happens, in large part to it's demographic problems (Putin really should have spent some of his money on healthcare, rather than RT and interfering in foreign elections). For that matter, Zeihan predicts a Chinese collapse as well, for demographic and economic reasons. The above linked map is from his book 'The Absent Superpower' (referring to American disinterest in the rest of the world causing general instability in Eurasia).

    Similar initial predictions to those of George Friedman (of 'The Next 100 Years' fame).
  • biggles said:

    Chameleon said:

    Unlike some of the more learned members here, I was not alive and creating memories in the 80s. How does this compare? I assume that it's a decent few steps below, but have no real yardstick.

    I was young but I remember discussing nuclear war and our likely deaths with my parents. It’s brought those memories back.
    Me too.

    I recollect one startling remark from my Dad who had fought in North Africa in WW2. I'd just referred to the horror of being incinerated by a nuclear blast. He said that from the point of view of the victim it wouldn't be a lot different to being incinerated in a tank.

    He had evidently seen many die that way.

    :(
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,553

    Incredible footage of ordinary unarmed Ukr peeps telling RU troops to just fuck off back to their own country. The soldiers just stand there. Lost. Clutching guns. The officer attempts to pat them on the shoulders to keep them going. They look haunted and lost. A long way from their real home and utterly not signed up to this bollx.



    https://www.nytimes.com/live/2022/02/28/world/ukraine-russia-war#ukrainian-civilians-protest-russian-troops-who-occupied-a-coastal-city


    Putin has lost this already. Just about how it ends now.

    Maybe Ukraine could encourage a lot of them to stop fighting in return for sanctuary.
  • ChameleonChameleon Posts: 4,264

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    biggles said:

    You know, we’re rapidly approaching the point that I want Ukraine in NATO, as should we all, not to help Ukraine but because they are hard as nails and I want them to have my back.

    Which while Russia has troops in there means we are then at war with Russia, leading to WW3 and potential nuclear war
    Will you change your narrative when Johnson and NATO change theirs?
    They won't, we are not going to war with Russia unless they invade Poland and maybe not even then.

    Putin is unlikely to invade a NATO state anyway beyond Ukraine the likeliest nation he would attack is Georgia
    If Poland is invaded and NATO run away, I can safely say Putin will be emboldened. That being the case he really won't give a ****!

    Poland will be defended, the Baltic States will be defended. Ukraine should be defended with a no fly zone. The consequences might be unthinkable, but that bridge needs to be crossed when it is reached.
    There is zero chance of NATO imposing a no fly zone over Ukraine with the Russian military and airforce already there. Even defending Poland and the Baltic States is only a 50% chance.

    Western Europe's defence is guaranteed, beyond that there is no certainty
    For goodness sake pack away your white flag.

    Putin told you two weeks ago he wouldn't invade Ukraine. He is telling you now he will ONLY use nukes if NATO acts against Russia? Do you still believe him. If you do you are a naive fool.
    It's clear as day that Putin's ambitions do not stop at Ukraine and Belarus (the latter of which has been effectively annexed to no western attention over the past 9 months). Once he deals with Ukraine it's Finland and Gotland, and if the West hasn't adequately responded by then he'll go for the Baltics. It's obvious to the vast majority of people who are not first order thinkers.
  • HYUFD said:

    Incredible footage of ordinary unarmed Ukr peeps telling RU troops to just fuck off back to their own country.


    https://www.nytimes.com/live/2022/02/28/world/ukraine-russia-war#ukrainian-civilians-protest-russian-troops-who-occupied-a-coastal-city


    Putin has lost this already. Just about how it ends now.

    The trouble is he has massive weaponry.
    Indeed, all he has mainly sent in so far is conscriptss with limited air support.

    Most of the elite Russian troops have not been sent to Kyiv. If it does not fall within a week they will be after a massive aerial bombing campaign and supported by heavy artillery and Russian tanks
    Amazing your knowledge of warfare and the Russian army

    Good job Ukraine and the allies do not read your ludicrous posts
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,368
    edited February 2022

    To those blaming this on NATO expansion, maybe pause and think about that?

    I think he means a pretty broad front of twunts.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,625
    HYUFD said:

    Incredible footage of ordinary unarmed Ukr peeps telling RU troops to just fuck off back to their own country.


    https://www.nytimes.com/live/2022/02/28/world/ukraine-russia-war#ukrainian-civilians-protest-russian-troops-who-occupied-a-coastal-city


    Putin has lost this already. Just about how it ends now.

    The trouble is he has massive weaponry.
    Indeed, all he has mainly sent in so far is conscripts with limited air support.

    Most of the elite Russian troops have not been sent to Kyiv. If it does not fall within a week they will be after a massive aerial bombing campaign and supported by heavy artillery and Russian tanks.

    It is not over by any means, in reality the war has barely begun
    Do you still believe in the myth of the invincibility of the Russian military after what we've seen?
  • HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    biggles said:

    You know, we’re rapidly approaching the point that I want Ukraine in NATO, as should we all, not to help Ukraine but because they are hard as nails and I want them to have my back.

    Which while Russia has troops in there means we are then at war with Russia, leading to WW3 and potential nuclear war
    Will you change your narrative when Johnson and NATO change theirs?
    They won't, we are not going to war with Russia unless they invade Poland and maybe not even then.

    Putin is unlikely to invade a NATO state anyway beyond Ukraine the likeliest nation he would attack is Georgia
    If Poland is invaded and NATO run away, I can safely say Putin will be emboldened. That being the case he really won't give a ****!

    Poland will be defended, the Baltic States will be defended. Ukraine should be defended with a no fly zone. The consequences might be unthinkable, but that bridge needs to be crossed when it is reached.
    There is zero chance of NATO imposing a no fly zone over Ukraine with the Russian military and airforce already there. Even defending Poland and the Baltic States is only a 50% chance.

    Western Europe's defence is guaranteed, beyond that there is no certainty
    Where & how have you acquired Madame de Krüdener's crystal ball?
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,277

    Incredible footage of ordinary unarmed Ukr peeps telling RU troops to just fuck off back to their own country. The soldiers just stand there. Lost. Clutching guns. The officer attempts to pat them on the shoulders to keep them going. They look haunted and lost. A long way from their real home and utterly not signed up to this bollx.



    https://www.nytimes.com/live/2022/02/28/world/ukraine-russia-war#ukrainian-civilians-protest-russian-troops-who-occupied-a-coastal-city


    Putin has lost this already. Just about how it ends now.

    That is amazing footage. Those Russians have no will to shoot on the Ukrainians.

    It is like the HYUFD Unionist Regiment being asked to brutally gun down the Women's Institute and Royal Gardening Club, quietly gathered by Monmouth Town Hall, after a Welsh vote for independence

    I feel for the Russian soldiers, actually. They are being cued up, by Putin, for a lifetime of guilt and torment
  • bigglesbiggles Posts: 6,051
    edited February 2022

    @ASLuhn
    Bulgaria will give Ukraine 14 Su-25 & 16 MiG-29 fighter jets, Poland will give it 28 MiG-29s & Slovakia will give it 12 MiG-29s. More importantly--given Russian missile strikes on military airbases--they can fly missions over Ukraine from Poland


    https://twitter.com/ASLuhn/status/1498409887205937155

    Bravo, but I am (happily) amazed. Unthinkable a week ago.

    We are one step away from sending Patriots and Sky Sabres, and clearing the airspace.

    But it does raise a slight worry in the back of my mind that at some stage he will just assume we’re directly playing.

    As will be clear from my posts, my head and heart are in different places on this.
  • What happened to PB's recent Putinist bot? Banned or just gave it up?

    Or just leaving it to the usual suspects, as per usual?

    I believe he was banned.

    The stream of bilge about Putin's righteous war of certainty was all fine, but later he said pineapple was good on pizza and Radiohead should play Moscow more often.

    Obviously the hammer had to come down.



    Just a ban, I hope. He wasn't sent to ConHome?

    I know he was a prick but....
  • Incredible footage of ordinary unarmed Ukr peeps telling RU troops to just fuck off back to their own country. The soldiers just stand there. Lost. Clutching guns. The officer attempts to pat them on the shoulders to keep them going. They look haunted and lost. A long way from their real home and utterly not signed up to this bollx.



    https://www.nytimes.com/live/2022/02/28/world/ukraine-russia-war#ukrainian-civilians-protest-russian-troops-who-occupied-a-coastal-city


    Putin has lost this already. Just about how it ends now.

    With the caveat that the end might be years, maybe decades away, and the route to that end will pass over some unkown number of destroyed lives.

    But even if Russia can move some counters around the map for a while, as if the real world is some giant game of Risk, the idea that they can subdue the idea of Ukraine is for the birds.

    Dah dah dah dummmmmm...
  • pigeonpigeon Posts: 4,839

    @ASLuhn
    Bulgaria will give Ukraine 14 Su-25 & 16 MiG-29 fighter jets, Poland will give it 28 MiG-29s & Slovakia will give it 12 MiG-29s. More importantly--given Russian missile strikes on military airbases--they can fly missions over Ukraine from Poland


    https://twitter.com/ASLuhn/status/1498409887205937155

    I would seriously doubt the truth - actually, I'm 99.9975% sure it's false - of the part about flying missions from Poland. Selling weapons to the Ukrainian Government and offering it the use of NATO airbases are two very different things.

    This suggestion appears to emanate from an 'environment journalist' conveying second-hand information from a Ukrainian website. Shocked to concede that not everything on Twitter is true.
  • To those blaming this on NATO expansion, maybe pause and think about that?

    Our own @HYUFD is their spokesperson
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,918
    Leon said:

    Incredible footage of ordinary unarmed Ukr peeps telling RU troops to just fuck off back to their own country. The soldiers just stand there. Lost. Clutching guns. The officer attempts to pat them on the shoulders to keep them going. They look haunted and lost. A long way from their real home and utterly not signed up to this bollx.



    https://www.nytimes.com/live/2022/02/28/world/ukraine-russia-war#ukrainian-civilians-protest-russian-troops-who-occupied-a-coastal-city


    Putin has lost this already. Just about how it ends now.

    That is amazing footage. Those Russians have no will to shoot on the Ukrainians.

    It is like the HYUFD Unionist Regiment being asked to brutally gun down the Women's Institute and Royal Gardening Club, quietly gathered by Monmouth Town Hall, after a Welsh vote for independence

    I feel for the Russian soldiers, actually. They are being cued up, by Putin, for a lifetime of guilt and torment
    Why would the Welsh be allowed an independence vote anyway
  • OllyTOllyT Posts: 5,006
    edited February 2022
    stodge said:

    biggles said:

    You know, we’re rapidly approaching the point that I want Ukraine in NATO, as should we all, not to help Ukraine but because they are hard as nails and I want them to have my back.

    As you were happy, a few days ago, to die in a nuclear exchange which would likely destroy civilisation and kill tens of millions, you'll forgive me for not agreeing with you.

    Ukraine can join NATO the day Russia joins NATO as far as I'm concerned.
    What gives Russia the right to veto the defence strategies of other sovereign nations? You are happy to let Russia tell Sweden, Finland and Ukraine that they are not allowed to join NATO? What if Russia then starts threaten other countries if they don't leave NATO?
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,918

    HYUFD said:

    Incredible footage of ordinary unarmed Ukr peeps telling RU troops to just fuck off back to their own country.


    https://www.nytimes.com/live/2022/02/28/world/ukraine-russia-war#ukrainian-civilians-protest-russian-troops-who-occupied-a-coastal-city


    Putin has lost this already. Just about how it ends now.

    The trouble is he has massive weaponry.
    Indeed, all he has mainly sent in so far is conscripts with limited air support.

    Most of the elite Russian troops have not been sent to Kyiv. If it does not fall within a week they will be after a massive aerial bombing campaign and supported by heavy artillery and Russian tanks.

    It is not over by any means, in reality the war has barely begun
    Do you still believe in the myth of the invincibility of the Russian military after what we've seen?
    As I said so far it is mainly conscripts who have been doing the fighting, the full scale of the Russian military has yet to be engaged
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,625
    pigeon said:

    @ASLuhn
    Bulgaria will give Ukraine 14 Su-25 & 16 MiG-29 fighter jets, Poland will give it 28 MiG-29s & Slovakia will give it 12 MiG-29s. More importantly--given Russian missile strikes on military airbases--they can fly missions over Ukraine from Poland


    https://twitter.com/ASLuhn/status/1498409887205937155

    I would seriously doubt the truth - actually, I'm 99.9975% sure it's false - of the part about flying missions from Poland. Selling weapons to the Ukrainian Government and offering it the use of NATO airbases are two very different things.

    This suggestion appears to emanate from an 'environment journalist' conveying second-hand information from a Ukrainian website. Shocked to concede that not everything on Twitter is true.
    Yes, sorry I should have given it a health warning. It looks like Josep Borrell might also have announced things on behalf of the EU that he can't deliver.
  • ChameleonChameleon Posts: 4,264
    https://twitter.com/COUPSURE/status/1498272842554687489

    "Reservists and militias are setting up checkpoints every few miles between Odessa and Kyiv." [Video attached]

    We've seen similar elsewhere, with unarmed townspeople stepping in front of tanks to protect their country but a lot of brave, underarmed Ukrainians will die for their country over the next week. The biggest Ukrainian victory over the past week has been on the morale front. The Russians are reeling (having been told that they were going to be welcomed as heroes), while the civilians feel patriotism like never before.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,083
    Leon said:

    Incredible footage of ordinary unarmed Ukr peeps telling RU troops to just fuck off back to their own country. The soldiers just stand there. Lost. Clutching guns. The officer attempts to pat them on the shoulders to keep them going. They look haunted and lost. A long way from their real home and utterly not signed up to this bollx.



    https://www.nytimes.com/live/2022/02/28/world/ukraine-russia-war#ukrainian-civilians-protest-russian-troops-who-occupied-a-coastal-city


    Putin has lost this already. Just about how it ends now.

    It is like the HYUFD Unionist Regiment being asked to brutally gun down the Women's Institute and Royal Gardening Club, quietly gathered by Monmouth Town Hall, after a Welsh vote for independence
    What do the polls say say?
  • bigglesbiggles Posts: 6,051
    HYUFD said:

    Incredible footage of ordinary unarmed Ukr peeps telling RU troops to just fuck off back to their own country.


    https://www.nytimes.com/live/2022/02/28/world/ukraine-russia-war#ukrainian-civilians-protest-russian-troops-who-occupied-a-coastal-city


    Putin has lost this already. Just about how it ends now.

    The trouble is he has massive weaponry.
    Indeed, all he has mainly sent in so far is conscripts with limited air support.

    Most of the elite Russian troops have not been sent to Kyiv. If it does not fall within a week they will be after a massive aerial bombing campaign and supported by heavy artillery and Russian tanks.

    It is not over by any means, in reality the war has barely begun
    You think it’s mainly conscripts. Published western intelligence says otherwise. Who to believe…?
  • MattWMattW Posts: 23,148
    edited February 2022

    @ASLuhn
    Bulgaria will give Ukraine 14 Su-25 & 16 MiG-29 fighter jets, Poland will give it 28 MiG-29s & Slovakia will give it 12 MiG-29s. More importantly--given Russian missile strikes on military airbases--they can fly missions over Ukraine from Poland


    https://twitter.com/ASLuhn/status/1498409887205937155

    That needs treble sourcing. Personally I don't believe it.

    1 - I've heard a report that the EU will not include aircraft in their funding package. Not sure of source, however.
    2 - Direct engagement of NATO forces or NATO territories vs Russian forces goes directly against the word from NATO so far.

    Add:
    3 - There's a denial in the thread:
    @NeilPHauer
    Replying to
    @ASLuhn
    Bulgaria has already denied FYI

    https://twitter.com/NeilPHauer/status/1498410480506966020
  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 8,647
    edited February 2022

    @ASLuhn
    Bulgaria will give Ukraine 14 Su-25 & 16 MiG-29 fighter jets, Poland will give it 28 MiG-29s & Slovakia will give it 12 MiG-29s. More importantly--given Russian missile strikes on military airbases--they can fly missions over Ukraine from Poland


    https://twitter.com/ASLuhn/status/1498409887205937155

    Told you! (Edit: looks a bit sus. But have been wondering about those US tankers in Poland...)

    And to all those suggesting that there needs to be an awkward political compromise - why? The West finds itself in a surprisingly advantageous position, democracy is defended, Europe united, Russia humiliated by a handful of Turkish drones.

    This all changes if the Ukrainians themselves seek a ceasefire (perhaps after something really bad, like chemical weapons). But until then, we should have their back.
  • pigeon said:

    @ASLuhn
    Bulgaria will give Ukraine 14 Su-25 & 16 MiG-29 fighter jets, Poland will give it 28 MiG-29s & Slovakia will give it 12 MiG-29s. More importantly--given Russian missile strikes on military airbases--they can fly missions over Ukraine from Poland


    https://twitter.com/ASLuhn/status/1498409887205937155

    I would seriously doubt the truth - actually, I'm 99.9975% sure it's false - of the part about flying missions from Poland. Selling weapons to the Ukrainian Government and offering it the use of NATO airbases are two very different things.

    This suggestion appears to emanate from an 'environment journalist' conveying second-hand information from a Ukrainian website. Shocked to concede that not everything on Twitter is true.
    I would also doubt the accuracy of "flying from Polish airbases" - in Russia's eyes that would make them a legitimate target.....
  • Leon said:

    Incredible footage of ordinary unarmed Ukr peeps telling RU troops to just fuck off back to their own country. The soldiers just stand there. Lost. Clutching guns. The officer attempts to pat them on the shoulders to keep them going. They look haunted and lost. A long way from their real home and utterly not signed up to this bollx.



    https://www.nytimes.com/live/2022/02/28/world/ukraine-russia-war#ukrainian-civilians-protest-russian-troops-who-occupied-a-coastal-city


    Putin has lost this already. Just about how it ends now.

    That is amazing footage. Those Russians have no will to shoot on the Ukrainians.

    It is like the HYUFD Unionist Regiment being asked to brutally gun down the Women's Institute and Royal Gardening Club, quietly gathered by Monmouth Town Hall, after a Welsh vote for independence

    I feel for the Russian soldiers, actually. They are being cued up, by Putin, for a lifetime of guilt and torment
    :+1:

    They know this is bollx and they know they are being asked to shoot their aunty's second cousin or whatever.

    And there's rumours that many of them were told this was still just the biggly training exercise and they are not quite sure where they are but it is definitely no longer Belarus.
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,523
    pigeon said:

    @ASLuhn
    Bulgaria will give Ukraine 14 Su-25 & 16 MiG-29 fighter jets, Poland will give it 28 MiG-29s & Slovakia will give it 12 MiG-29s. More importantly--given Russian missile strikes on military airbases--they can fly missions over Ukraine from Poland


    https://twitter.com/ASLuhn/status/1498409887205937155

    I would seriously doubt the truth - actually, I'm 99.9975% sure it's false - of the part about flying missions from Poland. Selling weapons to the Ukrainian Government and offering it the use of NATO airbases are two very different things.

    This suggestion appears to emanate from an 'environment journalist' conveying second-hand information from a Ukrainian website. Shocked to concede that not everything on Twitter is true.
    Yes, it would open the door to missile strikes on the Polish airbases. Unlikely.
  • bigglesbiggles Posts: 6,051
    MattW said:

    @ASLuhn
    Bulgaria will give Ukraine 14 Su-25 & 16 MiG-29 fighter jets, Poland will give it 28 MiG-29s & Slovakia will give it 12 MiG-29s. More importantly--given Russian missile strikes on military airbases--they can fly missions over Ukraine from Poland


    https://twitter.com/ASLuhn/status/1498409887205937155

    That needs treble sourcing. Personally I don't believe it.

    1 - I've heard a report that the EU will not include aircraft in their funding package. Not sure of source, however.
    2 - Direct engagement of NATO forces or NATO territories vs Russian forces goes directly against the word from NATO so far.

    Add:
    3 - There's a denial in the thread:
    @NeilPHauer
    Replying to
    @ASLuhn
    Bulgaria has already denied FYI

    https://twitter.com/NeilPHauer/status/1498410480506966020
    Didn’t read the last bit. Can’t believe they will fly from Poland.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,277
    biggles said:

    @ASLuhn
    Bulgaria will give Ukraine 14 Su-25 & 16 MiG-29 fighter jets, Poland will give it 28 MiG-29s & Slovakia will give it 12 MiG-29s. More importantly--given Russian missile strikes on military airbases--they can fly missions over Ukraine from Poland


    https://twitter.com/ASLuhn/status/1498409887205937155

    Bravo, but I am (happily) amazed. Unthinkable a week ago.

    We are one step away from sending Patriots and Sky Sabres, and clearing the airspace.

    But it does raise a slight worry in the back of my mind that at some stage he will just assume we’re directly playing.

    As will be clear from my posts, my head and heart are in different places on this.
    It is surely bollocks It gives Putin a casus belli for WW3 and certainly the razing of Ukraine. This is exactly what we do not need, over-excited europhile Remainer twats saying Whoah look the EU is now attacking the Russian army! Go Brussels!
  • "+70 planes for the Ukrainian army!
    Partners give MiG-29 and Su-25. If necessary, they can be based on Polish airfields from which Ukrainian pilots will perform combat missions.
    🇧🇬 Bulgaria (MiG-29) - 16
    🇧🇬 Bulgaria (Su-25) - 14
    🇮🇩 Poland (Mig-29) - 28
    🇸🇰 Slovakia (Mig-29) - 12"

    That's Euromaiden, pretty much Ukrainian state news
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,083
    biggles said:

    @ASLuhn
    Bulgaria will give Ukraine 14 Su-25 & 16 MiG-29 fighter jets, Poland will give it 28 MiG-29s & Slovakia will give it 12 MiG-29s. More importantly--given Russian missile strikes on military airbases--they can fly missions over Ukraine from Poland


    https://twitter.com/ASLuhn/status/1498409887205937155

    But it does raise a slight worry in the back of my mind that at some stage he will just assume we’re directly playing.
    Problem is he's already blustered and whinged and threatened about far less direct action. He knows and NATO knows they aren't going in on the ground, but given the threats he's already made and his own use of Belarus as a base of operations, NATO obviously feels able to push up to the line on providing support. If he acts against that directly, then they can escalate that support a hundred fold. The only move left would be tossing over the board.

  • TimSTimS Posts: 12,986

    @ASLuhn
    Bulgaria will give Ukraine 14 Su-25 & 16 MiG-29 fighter jets, Poland will give it 28 MiG-29s & Slovakia will give it 12 MiG-29s. More importantly--given Russian missile strikes on military airbases--they can fly missions over Ukraine from Poland


    https://twitter.com/ASLuhn/status/1498409887205937155

    The last sentence would be madness and WW3 so I suspect it’s a mistranslation and that UA pilots will fly them to their bases from Poland (how else to import them).
  • Three of the top 5 flights tracked on FlightRadar 24 are RAF - two Typhoons and a tanker, en-route now back to Cyprus after loitering in Rumanian airspace near the Ukraine border.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,153
    Alistair said:

    Kevin Macdonald was, of course, a practicioner of evo psych.

    This is my shocked face.

    "anti-Semitism, rather than being an irrational hatred for Jews, is actually a logical reaction to Jewish success. In other words, the Nazis, like many other anti-Semites, were only anti-Semitic because they were countering a genuine Jewish threat to their well-being."


  • ChameleonChameleon Posts: 4,264
    edited February 2022

    Chameleon said:

    Unlike some of the more learned members here, I was not alive and creating memories in the 80s. How does this compare? I assume that it's a decent few steps below, but have no real yardstick.

    This is more worrying although as I am much older now I seem strangely to be somewhat more blase about it even though I think it is more likely.

    I grew up throughout the Cold War. Born in 1965, left Uni and started work by 1989. So it was always there as a threat but because of that it kind of became something less frightening, less likely. This actually does feel like one false step and we are screwed. And of course we now know what we didn't know then which is that there were multiple occasions when we came within minutes of it all going bang and we were only saved by one or two lowly individuals within more sense and courage than we might hope for.

    I just wonder when our luck runs out.
    Interesting, thanks to those who have responded.

    While I'm not a particularly devoted student of modern history, it was generally conveyed to us at school that both sides were led by rational actors making rational decisions, although that may be revisionist bias. At the moment it very much feels that someone who has his time on this earth limited by nature is trying to make as much impression on this world as possible (Ms. Rice's speech on how she felt that Putin desired a 'the great' moniker is enlightening in this regard).

    Personally it just feels weird. I was sat in a pub just over a week ago discussing all this as a theoretical. Now some friends in the army at that table are uncontactable, and our discussions over which countries we'd be willing to fight to protect, and whether London is a good place to be living in a time of nuclear tension feel somewhat less academic!
  • biggles said:

    Didn’t read the last bit. Can’t believe they will fly from Poland.

    I can't see that happening at all. It would be a *huge* escalation that would drive Putin mad(er) and would put Poland's protection under Article 5 on shaky ground.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,277

    pigeon said:

    @ASLuhn
    Bulgaria will give Ukraine 14 Su-25 & 16 MiG-29 fighter jets, Poland will give it 28 MiG-29s & Slovakia will give it 12 MiG-29s. More importantly--given Russian missile strikes on military airbases--they can fly missions over Ukraine from Poland


    https://twitter.com/ASLuhn/status/1498409887205937155

    I would seriously doubt the truth - actually, I'm 99.9975% sure it's false - of the part about flying missions from Poland. Selling weapons to the Ukrainian Government and offering it the use of NATO airbases are two very different things.

    This suggestion appears to emanate from an 'environment journalist' conveying second-hand information from a Ukrainian website. Shocked to concede that not everything on Twitter is true.
    Yes, sorry I should have given it a health warning. It looks like Josep Borrell might also have announced things on behalf of the EU that he can't deliver.
    Not, let it be said, for the first time
  • FrankBoothFrankBooth Posts: 9,826
    Hyufd - why would he have sent in conscripts first?
  • Newsnight.

    19 year old girl sent to Poland to get away from Ukr by her family as they thought at least one person should survive is asked what she would say to Putin.

    "I would kill him with my bare hands".

  • ChameleonChameleon Posts: 4,264
    edited February 2022
    https://twitter.com/UAWeapons/status/1498408659633770504

    More evidence for widespread desertion. A few credible sources have claimed that when Russian armour learned they were headed for Kyiv they disposed of fuel to avoid the killing funnels.

    https://twitter.com/ArmedForcesUkr/status/1498330052009807880 Russian troops marching back towards the border in this one, seemingly with no scouts or posture indicating that they're ready for combat.
  • I was close to tears the first day this started when I turned on the radio and now I am the same again after seeing that interview on newsnight with the lass sent away by her family so that at least one of us survives.

  • pigeonpigeon Posts: 4,839

    pigeon said:

    @ASLuhn
    Bulgaria will give Ukraine 14 Su-25 & 16 MiG-29 fighter jets, Poland will give it 28 MiG-29s & Slovakia will give it 12 MiG-29s. More importantly--given Russian missile strikes on military airbases--they can fly missions over Ukraine from Poland


    https://twitter.com/ASLuhn/status/1498409887205937155

    I would seriously doubt the truth - actually, I'm 99.9975% sure it's false - of the part about flying missions from Poland. Selling weapons to the Ukrainian Government and offering it the use of NATO airbases are two very different things.

    This suggestion appears to emanate from an 'environment journalist' conveying second-hand information from a Ukrainian website. Shocked to concede that not everything on Twitter is true.
    Yes, sorry I should have given it a health warning. It looks like Josep Borrell might also have announced things on behalf of the EU that he can't deliver.
    I don't know if some of these old Soviet aircraft might end up finding their way to Ukraine: AIUI they're all due to be replaced by more modern American hardware, possibly with the Americans therefore underwriting their "sale" (i.e. donation) to Ukraine. Selling the Ukrainians aircraft wouldn't essentially be any different to selling them crates of anti-tank weapons or artillery pieces, which is what we've already been doing for a while.

    But they'd surely have to operate them from their own territory? I don't believe for one minute that NATO will be offering them the use of air bases.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,553
    The majority of people in Kharkiv speak Russian, yet this is where cluster bombs were used.
  • CookieCookie Posts: 13,792

    Leon said:

    Incredible footage of ordinary unarmed Ukr peeps telling RU troops to just fuck off back to their own country. The soldiers just stand there. Lost. Clutching guns. The officer attempts to pat them on the shoulders to keep them going. They look haunted and lost. A long way from their real home and utterly not signed up to this bollx.



    https://www.nytimes.com/live/2022/02/28/world/ukraine-russia-war#ukrainian-civilians-protest-russian-troops-who-occupied-a-coastal-city


    Putin has lost this already. Just about how it ends now.

    That is amazing footage. Those Russians have no will to shoot on the Ukrainians.

    It is like the HYUFD Unionist Regiment being asked to brutally gun down the Women's Institute and Royal Gardening Club, quietly gathered by Monmouth Town Hall, after a Welsh vote for independence

    I feel for the Russian soldiers, actually. They are being cued up, by Putin, for a lifetime of guilt and torment
    :+1:

    They know this is bollx and they know they are being asked to shoot their aunty's second cousin or whatever.

    And there's rumours that many of them were told this was still just the biggly training exercise and they are not quite sure where they are but it is definitely no longer Belarus.
    It's utterly awe inspiring.
    The bravery of these people.
    For two years, we in the west have been sacrificing liberty for safety. All for arguably good reasons, but not very invogorating to the spirit. And now we see this - tremendous personal risks taken in the name of liberty. Because liberty is worth risking all for.
    This is not just a foundation legend for Ukraine, this is a foundation myth for the west. Since the end of history in 1989 we have prevaricated aout what we stand for; well, now we know. This. Or rather, not what the alternative to this is. Not Vlad.
    I almost no longer dare to look at the news; surely Kyiv can't still stand? Surely Ukraine must have fallen? Yet it has not; this amazing stand is still going on.
  • Not saying it makes it at all true, but the flying Migs from Poland thing I think came from the facebook page of the Ukrainian army
    https://www.facebook.com/UkrainianLandForces
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,083
    Chameleon said:

    https://twitter.com/UAWeapons/status/1498408659633770504

    More evidence for widespread desertion. A few credible sources have claimed that when Russian armour learned they were headed for Kyiv they disposed of fuel to avoid the killing funnels.

    https://twitter.com/ArmedForcesUkr/status/1498330052009807880 Russian troops marching back towards the border in this one, seemingly with no scouts or posture indicating that they're ready for combat.

    I feel like it must be much harder to desert now than it used to be. Consequence of doing so catching up with you sooner must be higher.
  • kle4 said:

    biggles said:

    @ASLuhn
    Bulgaria will give Ukraine 14 Su-25 & 16 MiG-29 fighter jets, Poland will give it 28 MiG-29s & Slovakia will give it 12 MiG-29s. More importantly--given Russian missile strikes on military airbases--they can fly missions over Ukraine from Poland


    https://twitter.com/ASLuhn/status/1498409887205937155

    But it does raise a slight worry in the back of my mind that at some stage he will just assume we’re directly playing.
    Problem is he's already blustered and whinged and threatened about far less direct action. He knows and NATO knows they aren't going in on the ground, but given the threats he's already made and his own use of Belarus as a base of operations, NATO obviously feels able to push up to the line on providing support. If he acts against that directly, then they can escalate that support a hundred fold. The only move left would be tossing over the board.

    There's a scenario where, at some point the atrocities may become so off the scale appalling that Biden will send NATO in.

    I doubt though that Putin now lasts long enough to get there.

    The wiped out economy will do for him.

  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,625
    pigeon said:

    But they'd surely have to operate them from their own territory? I don't believe for one minute that NATO will be offering them the use of air bases.

    Personally I think it's highly likely that this will happen if necessary.
  • ChameleonChameleon Posts: 4,264
    Andy_JS said:

    The majority of people in Kharkiv speak Russian, yet this is where cluster bombs were used.

    10 years ago a lot of Ukraine felt a deep affiliation to Russia (as evidenced in their electoral results). Now the entire national identity and mythology is built on opposing Russia. It's an outstanding own goal, one that only makes sense in the very short term. The needless loss of life is just so heartbreaking. The Russian people need to act soon.
  • bigglesbiggles Posts: 6,051
    kle4 said:

    biggles said:

    @ASLuhn
    Bulgaria will give Ukraine 14 Su-25 & 16 MiG-29 fighter jets, Poland will give it 28 MiG-29s & Slovakia will give it 12 MiG-29s. More importantly--given Russian missile strikes on military airbases--they can fly missions over Ukraine from Poland


    https://twitter.com/ASLuhn/status/1498409887205937155

    But it does raise a slight worry in the back of my mind that at some stage he will just assume we’re directly playing.
    Problem is he's already blustered and whinged and threatened about far less direct action. He knows and NATO knows they aren't going in on the ground, but given the threats he's already made and his own use of Belarus as a base of operations, NATO obviously feels able to push up to the line on providing support. If he acts against that directly, then they can escalate that support a hundred fold. The only move left would be tossing over the board.

    Yes I was thinking about this earlier. We’ve managed to completely turn the tables on him. We’ve moved from “what will NATO do, they can’t go too far” to “NATO has done it and is doing more, what can Russia do”.
This discussion has been closed.