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The Ukranian Crisis – Day 5 – politicalbetting.com

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  • pigeonpigeon Posts: 4,839
    Leon said:

    Heathener said:

    Foxy said:

    biggles said:

    Foxy said:

    eek said:

    HYUFD said:

    Pagan2 said:

    HYUFD said:

    Pagan2 said:

    HYUFD said:

    Pagan2 said:

    There is a phrase "give them an inch they take will take a mile" I am pretty sure that the people arguing here to give into to putins demands will be saying the same when he invades estonia, and the same when he invades finland etc....The time to stop him is now simple as that.

    Finland is not in NATO either, so again it would be sanctions only.

    Estonia however is in NATO so then it would be war
    Who gives a damn if they are in nato or not. Russia needs to be stopped now. You lack any morality you are no better than those that argued for the appeasement of Hitler. You are everything repulsive about your wing of torydom where the only thing that counts is you. Please go get some humanity because you are sadly lacking.
    Only 31% of British voters support airstrikes against the Russians in Ukraine and only 26% support sending British troops to fight the Russians in Ukraine. Unlike you they recognise going beyond sanctions against the Russians means WW3 and maybe even nuclear war, yet Ukraine is not in NATO.

    Even Hitler did not have nuclear weapons and we only went to war when he invaded Poland, not when he absorbed the Sudetenland and Austria and invaded Czechoslovakia

    https://twitter.com/YouGov/status/1498249935095058439?s=20&t=3yGC-AzfhjagR3meh5EPSg
    It really doesnt matter what people support it matters what is right and if we had stepped in at sudetenland instead of listening to moral vacuums like yourself we may not have had a five year long world war when hitler realised the world would unite against him. Once more grow some humanity you are an amoral idiot that cares for nothing more than what benefits you and your beloved inheritance. You know the cost of everything but have absolutely no values.
    We needed the time to rearm. We also are not ready to fight Russia and Germany etc also need time to rearm.

    I repeat, even Hitler did not have nuclear weapons. If he had the world may well have been destroyed already in WW2 or D Day may never have happened and we may just have ended up in a mutual standoff (still better than nuclear armageddon).

    Going to war with a military superpower with nuclear weapons like Russia must only be done to defend NATO nations and NATO nations alone
    WTF are you suggesting that it's a good idea to give Russia time to rearm?
    I think they would struggle to afford to re-arm.

    Indeed their lack of resupply suggests that they have limited reserves of the more expensive kit.
    We’ve all got desensitised to these questions by watching US led ops. They have massive stockpiles and no ammo issues. If we were doing one on our own then doing things like managing cruise missile stocks would be a major issue. That’s presumably where Russia is.
    It may also be part of why they are using the thermobaric weapons. It's what they have left.

    I think this is developing into a fiasco for the Russian Army.
    Clearly I got it staggeringly wrong about whether Putin would invade. I apologise.

    However, I did base it on the argument that I didn't think they had anything like sufficient forces and wherewithal for assured victory. I suggested that Russian military might was exaggerated and always has been. It always looked to me to be incredibly dicey from a military perspective.

    It sounds like some of his generals were saying the same thing as me. But we've been dealing with a madman. Someone who has gone doolally.

    For the avoidance of doubt, like Leon, I am now expecting this to escalate into nuclear war. Putin is a nutcase and he has nothing to lose.

    I think he will detonate a nuke over Kyiv or one of the other cities (IF his generals comply) and then it's down to the rest of the world to decide whether to defend Ukraine as we bloody well have to, or whether we lie down and let the sodding bastard get away with it.

    p.s. the human race would probably not be 'destroyed' by all out nuclear war. There would be some survivors.
    I am certainly NOT saying “this will escalate into nuclear war” Far from it. I still consider that highly unlikely.

    What I can foresee is a desperate, panicked Putin dropping a small tactical nuke on Lviv or Odessa, to regain the initiative, shock the world into fear, and quickly end the war on better terms for Russia. He would expect no nuclear reply from the west and he would likely be right

    That is very far from “nuclear war”, and even this limited scenario is at the less probable pessimistic end of things.

    Pity the Ukrainians
    Tom Tugendhat was speculating this morning on the possibility of the Russians detonating a tactical nuclear weapon on the battlefield. I think he used words to the effect that nuclear devices aren't such a taboo for the Russian military (they're simply something that produces a bigger bang than other available munitions,) and they aren't squeamish about the fallout. That said, it still seems mercifully improbable. I can't see that, once Putin takes the gloves off and really begins to batter the Ukrainian cities (and things seem to have started moving in that direction, with reports of heavy rocket bombardments,) he needs to resort to those sorts of measures to win, even if the Ukrainian defenders extract a high price from the Russian army in blood.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 18,355
    edited February 2022

    BREAKING - The EU has asked its satellite centre in Madrid to provide intelligence to Ukraine about Russian troop movements, the EU's head diplomat said.

    "Relations with Russia will no longer be determined by trade," he said.


    https://twitter.com/phildstewart/status/1498314321138491392?s=21

    I would expect US and UK and NATO are already doing that
    The nature of satellite orbits is that the more satellites, the better coverage you have in space and time, so I'd have thought this would still make a difference.
    AIUI satellite capabilities are very wide-ranging. You have earth-observation (taking pictures in real light or false-colours), radar, radio and others. It's not just the orbit; it's the precise nature of the sensors on board.

    Sensor fusion is king. Take all the data and munge it together to get a better picture.
    Well there's that too, though in this instance I just assumed it was visible satellite pictures only, which might be wrong, because I know nothing about this particular application.

    In meteorology they've been making use of the A-Train constellation of satellites for some years now, a bunch of satellites with different sensors that are just a few seconds-minutes behind each other on the same orbit, which has been really useful for getting nearly simultaneous observations of various meteorological phenomena with a very wide variety of different sensors. Lots of science done as a result.
  • HeathenerHeathener Posts: 7,084
    Re JJ's very good post down thread, I hesitate to mock Russian equipment because they're still capable of causing mass destruction.

    However, in my brief time in intelligence we did note the staggeringly basic nature of much of Russian equipment compared to the west. And I also remember reading an amusing report that when Apollo and Soyuz docked in space on 17th July 1975, the cosmonauts were wowed by the equipment in Apollo whilst the US astronauts were gobsmacked by the basic tin can they had docked with. It goes on, but you get the idea.

    Maybe we have been lulled by the ubiquitous AK47 into thinking they're better than they are ...

    (Caveat, it's a long long time since I worked in the area so this may be then, not now)
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,083
    tlg86 said:


    At least he doesn’t have a hammer and sickle behind him, but I’m not sure why there’s a Cuban flag there.

    It's so people know that there's a very good chance everything he says can be ignored.
  • OmniumOmnium Posts: 10,759
    Foss said:
    Top fucking off from EU and NATO marks. When they work out democracy it'll be a far longer way back.Now.. Oh dear.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,175

    tlg86 said:

    Tube strikes on Tuesday and Thursday this week. Look at this idiot from the RMT:



    At least he doesn’t have a hammer and sickle behind him, but I’m not sure why there’s a Cuban flag there.

    Any reason given for why they are striking?
    From bbc:

    The dispute is over plans by Transport for London (TfL) to cut up to 600 station posts, as well as concerns over pensions and working conditions.
  • kle4 said:

    tlg86 said:


    At least he doesn’t have a hammer and sickle behind him, but I’m not sure why there’s a Cuban flag there.

    It's so people know that there's a very good chance everything he says can be ignored.
    Talking of flags, on my usual morning walk with the dog I pass a house which flies the Union Jack from a large flagpole in the garden. Today the Ukranian flag was flying with it.

    Anybody else seen similar?
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,070

    Nigelb said:

    Edit Sadly untrue:

    "I had to delete the Ksenia sobchak video - it turned out to be old"


    Some actual dissent on prime time Russian media:
    https://twitter.com/juliaskripkaser/status/1498362044575330315
    Holy shit this is huge! Ksenia Sobchak on national Russian TV, on the talk show of Putin’s rabid media chihuahua Skabeyeva (it’s literally the epicentre of Putin’s media cesspool), JUST SPOKE THE TRUTH. “No one is happy to see us, bc we are becoming an aggressor”
    ...“Which arguments do you have that scary NATO will attack us tomorrow, tell me at least one! It’s us who is an aggressor, we are occupying lands, we are staring wars”. This is a *massive* break in Botox baboon’s media blockade, and really brave. I’d be scared. RIP Ksenia

    Just looking her up. An interesting figure. Her father was Putin's mentor and boss. She herself was regarded as 'protected' because of her association with Putin but has increasingly been critical of him including criticising his annexation of Crimea in 2014.
    Yes.
    I guess the recording was from the time of the Crimea invasion ?
    How much truer today…
  • tlg86 said:

    tlg86 said:

    Tube strikes on Tuesday and Thursday this week. Look at this idiot from the RMT:



    At least he doesn’t have a hammer and sickle behind him, but I’m not sure why there’s a Cuban flag there.

    Any reason given for why they are striking?
    From bbc:

    The dispute is over plans by Transport for London (TfL) to cut up to 600 station posts, as well as concerns over pensions and working conditions.
    Thanks.

    Aren't TfL losing money hands over fist at the moment?
  • pigeonpigeon Posts: 4,839
    edited February 2022
    Latest sporting news:

    #BREAKING Ukrainian tennis star Elina Svitolina refuses to play Russians or Belarusians

    https://twitter.com/AFP/status/1498378700043268098

    This will be a terrible headache for the tennis tours. They both contain a significant number of high profile players from Russia and Belarus, including the women's number three and the newly-minted men's number one.

    It's not a team sport so the problem of playing under the flag can be avoided, but if a significant number of players start refusing to play opponents from those two countries then there will be chaos.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,190
    tlg86 said:

    tlg86 said:

    Tube strikes on Tuesday and Thursday this week. Look at this idiot from the RMT:



    At least he doesn’t have a hammer and sickle behind him, but I’m not sure why there’s a Cuban flag there.

    Any reason given for why they are striking?
    From bbc:

    The dispute is over plans by Transport for London (TfL) to cut up to 600 station posts, as well as concerns over pensions and working conditions.
    No idea abou the working conditions, but I can't see pensions being too bad there (As they are everywhere in the public or pseudo public sector - looking at you Universities... )
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,083
    pigeon said:

    Latest sporting news:

    #BREAKING Ukrainian tennis star Elina Svitolina refuses to play Russians or Belarusians

    https://twitter.com/AFP/status/1498378700043268098

    This will be a terrible headache for the tennis tours. They both contain a significant number of high profile players from Russia and Belarus, including the women's number three and the newly-minted men's number one.

    It's not a team sport so the problem of playing under the flag can be avoided, but if a significant number of players start refusing to play opponents from those two countries then there will be chaos.

    It's caused issues when some refuse to compete against Israelis.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,375

    It won’t be Mikhail Gorbachev’s name written on the death certificate of the Russian empire: it will be Putin’s. Gorbachev left Russians and Ukrainians feeling like siblings; Putin has turned them into enemies, and has ensured that the Ukrainian nation will henceforth define itself in opposition to Russia.

    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2022/feb/28/vladimir-putin-war-russia-ukraine

    I don't think that's a very accurate summary of how Ukrainians and Russians felt about each other in 1991. What is true however is that Gorbachev as somebody of mixed Russian and Ukrainian ancestry would never have behaved like this towards Ukraine.

    Not than he even did towards Poland or Hungary when they broke free of his influence.
  • StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 8,243

    tlg86 said:

    tlg86 said:

    Tube strikes on Tuesday and Thursday this week. Look at this idiot from the RMT:



    At least he doesn’t have a hammer and sickle behind him, but I’m not sure why there’s a Cuban flag there.

    Any reason given for why they are striking?
    From bbc:

    The dispute is over plans by Transport for London (TfL) to cut up to 600 station posts, as well as concerns over pensions and working conditions.
    Thanks.

    Aren't TfL losing money hands over fist at the moment?
    Yes. Why do you think RMT cares?
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,576
    ydoethur said:

    rcs1000 said:

    When looking at why Russia might be having a problem with military equipment in Ukraine, look at their space program.

    Russia rightly has a stellar reputation as a space power. They have an illustrious history in spacefaring, but they are being left behind. They keep on announcing new programs, and spend billions on them, but little seems to happen.

    Take the new Angara rocket. Developed at vast cost, it has launched just four times since 2014, all as test flights, with one partial failure. This for a rocket roughly in the Falcon-9 class, which flies many times a year. Or even week.

    Then look at the Vostochny Cosmodrome, designed to partially replace their reliance on Kazakhstan. Massively late, massively over-budget, with people sacked or 'dead' because of nine-figure graft.

    These failures are visible to us because they are to do with space, where there is a great deal of visibility with the west via NASA and customers. I expect the military to be the same.

    Basically: they can keep their current kit going well. Anything new is problematic. They can build one or two, and that's it.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Angara_(rocket_family)
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vostochny_Cosmodrome

    They've also had a fairly disastrous - and highly expensive - commercial aviation program. The Irkut MC-21 looks like it will have dramatically worse performance than Boeing or Airbus, and be more expensive to run.

    To date there is one order - from Azerbaijan - from a non-Russian buyer.
    Worse then Boeing? How often does it crash? :hushed:
    Apparently one minor runway excursion.

    The difference being the 737Max had many, many flights before its flaws were exposed. This thing's new.
  • OmniumOmnium Posts: 10,759
    tlg86 said:

    tlg86 said:

    Tube strikes on Tuesday and Thursday this week. Look at this idiot from the RMT:



    At least he doesn’t have a hammer and sickle behind him, but I’m not sure why there’s a Cuban flag there.

    Any reason given for why they are striking?
    From bbc:

    The dispute is over plans by Transport for London (TfL) to cut up to 600 station posts, as well as concerns over pensions and working conditions.
    The ridiculous thing is that what they say is the reason isn't. They just want a pay rise. A long-serving tfl employee is well into millionaire territory with their pension.
  • tlg86 said:

    Tube strikes on Tuesday and Thursday this week. Look at this idiot from the RMT:



    At least he doesn’t have a hammer and sickle behind him, but I’m not sure why there’s a Cuban flag there.

    Any reason given for why they are striking?
    Real reasons, not given, to get a few extra days off per year whilst ensuring pay remains very high.
  • kle4 said:

    tlg86 said:


    At least he doesn’t have a hammer and sickle behind him, but I’m not sure why there’s a Cuban flag there.

    It's so people know that there's a very good chance everything he says can be ignored.
    Talking of flags, on my usual morning walk with the dog I pass a house which flies the Union Jack from a large flagpole in the garden. Today the Ukranian flag was flying with it.

    Anybody else seen similar?
    I've been thinking of getting a Ukr flag and sticking on my front door.
  • TresTres Posts: 2,695

    kle4 said:

    tlg86 said:


    At least he doesn’t have a hammer and sickle behind him, but I’m not sure why there’s a Cuban flag there.

    It's so people know that there's a very good chance everything he says can be ignored.
    Talking of flags, on my usual morning walk with the dog I pass a house which flies the Union Jack from a large flagpole in the garden. Today the Ukranian flag was flying with it.

    Anybody else seen similar?
    Yes, my neighbour from Ukraine is flying a flag, it's quite visible from the street as it is a cornerplot.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,561

    IshmaelZ said:

    Russia-Ukraine latest news: Russian military convoy approaching Kyiv now over 17 miles long

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2022/02/28/russia-ukraine-latest-news-war-putin-zelensky-weapons-updates/

    Great clunking fist time

    They are insane. A few hits by drone or rocket-launcher in well-chosen places (and, after all, the Ukrainians know their own land, so will know where those places are), and the whole 17 miles worth grinds to a halt. A distinctly uncomfortable halt, I would imagine.
    Those drone/plane/rocket-launcher/guerrilla attacks on that convoy look to be the way this war could end. It would effectively be impossible to proceed with the Kyiv attack if that convoy is lost.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,625
    Ukraine has been able to hit targets inside Russia with their drones.

    https://twitter.com/jimmysecuk/status/1498376576945242114
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 18,355
    Heathener said:

    Re JJ's very good post down thread, I hesitate to mock Russian equipment because they're still capable of causing mass destruction.

    However, in my brief time in intelligence we did note the staggeringly basic nature of much of Russian equipment compared to the west. And I also remember reading an amusing report that when Apollo and Soyuz docked in space on 17th July 1975, the cosmonauts were wowed by the equipment in Apollo whilst the US astronauts were gobsmacked by the basic tin can they had docked with. It goes on, but you get the idea.

    Maybe we have been lulled by the ubiquitous AK47 into thinking they're better than they are ...

    (Caveat, it's a long long time since I worked in the area so this may be then, not now)

    Someone posted a link to a long twitter thread about why Russia was going to lose. (TLDR: corruption).

    Basically I think a lot of Russian engineering and technology is very good, but corruption is state policy. The claim is that the previous Defence Minister lost his job because he was too good at fighting corruption in the defence supply chain, put too many noses out of joint as a result, and so was replaced by someone who would look the other way when money allocated for military supplies was diverted to private pockets.

    A possible consequence of this is that, if Russia's reaction to the shock of this calamity results in a new leadership that prioritises military effectiveness over the corruption of military spending, it's possible that their military could be a lot stronger some years down the line.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,368
    edited February 2022

    The Labour vote share around 40% seems pretty firm now, 2017 coalition re-built which makes a majority look very difficult at present for the Tories.

    I am going to stick firm with Hung Parliament

    I'm going to stick with what I have said for years "ignore mid-term opinion polls".

    Labour five points lead, or Tory five points lead, or anything else - its just noise.

    Besides, we have real news happening right now, that matters far more than trivia like that.
    Johnson is looking supreme after the invasion.

    Anyone for a snap 2022 GE and a Johnson landslide?
  • OmniumOmnium Posts: 10,759
    Nebenzia (Russian ambassador to the UN) is quite fantastically out of his league.

  • rcs1000 said:

    pigeon said:

    FF43 said:

    I've not seen much on how the financial sanctions introduced at the weekend have affected life in Russia. The stock exchange remains closed but I've not seen any reports of a run on the banks. I guess most Russians only save in rubles, which are still freely available for the banks to issue of course.

    Has the direct impact of the sanctions been overplayed somewhat?

    Bit early to say that. Expect rampant inflation and major cuts in living standards.
    Russia can still readily afford fuel and the wide range of foods available within its own borders, but a wide range of other products will become ruinously expensive - either because they are directly imported from abroad, or components to make them need to be imported from abroad (assuming they aren't actually under embargo.) The general principle being that immiserating the Russian populace might encourage them to unseat their despot and elevate a slightly less bonkers one in his place.
    The biggest headaches for Russia will be:

    - consumer goods that depend on imports, like mobile phones, computers, etc.
    - oil services equipment - without high tech gear from Schlumberger, Wetherfood, Halliburton, etc., can they maintain oil & gas productiom
    - cars and car parts

    They are fine for basic foodstuffs and are an exporter of wheat.
    All of these service companies have ben hit hard by the past few years and the oil price crash. They have cut hundreds of thousands of jobs to stay afloat and have centralised all their high tech equipment into international hubs. So for Schlumberger as an example, all their high tech specialist drilling equipment is now centralised in Dubai and is sent out from there to wherever it is needed around the world. As of now it simply won't be able to get into Russia and even if it could they wouldn't send it as they wouldn't want to risk a tool that makes them £100K a day getting stuck behind any future embargo.
  • IshmaelZ said:

    Russia-Ukraine latest news: Russian military convoy approaching Kyiv now over 17 miles long

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2022/02/28/russia-ukraine-latest-news-war-putin-zelensky-weapons-updates/

    Great clunking fist time

    They are insane. A few hits by drone or rocket-launcher in well-chosen places (and, after all, the Ukrainians know their own land, so will know where those places are), and the whole 17 miles worth grinds to a halt. A distinctly uncomfortable halt, I would imagine.
    Those drone/plane/rocket-launcher/guerrilla attacks on that convoy look to be the way this war could end. It would effectively be impossible to proceed with the Kyiv attack if that convoy is lost.
    Yep. Russia doesn't have complete air superiority. Even if they did, the drones (assuming the Ukrainians have enough still operational) are hard to stop. And even without the drones, the Russians will have a hell of a difficult job defending themselves from hand-held anti-tank weapons along such a long stretch. The Ukrainians only need to get lucky in a few places to cause havoc.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 18,355

    Ukraine has been able to hit targets inside Russia with their drones.

    https://twitter.com/jimmysecuk/status/1498376576945242114

    Everyone is going to want those drones, which means everyone is going to start thinking about how best to shoot down those drones.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,802

    IshmaelZ said:

    Russia-Ukraine latest news: Russian military convoy approaching Kyiv now over 17 miles long

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2022/02/28/russia-ukraine-latest-news-war-putin-zelensky-weapons-updates/

    Great clunking fist time

    They are insane. A few hits by drone or rocket-launcher in well-chosen places (and, after all, the Ukrainians know their own land, so will know where those places are), and the whole 17 miles worth grinds to a halt. A distinctly uncomfortable halt, I would imagine.
    Those drone/plane/rocket-launcher/guerrilla attacks on that convoy look to be the way this war could end. It would effectively be impossible to proceed with the Kyiv attack if that convoy is lost.
    Yep. Russia doesn't have complete air superiority. Even if they did, the drones (assuming the Ukrainians have enough still operational) are hard to stop. And even without the drones, the Russians will have a hell of a difficult job defending themselves from hand-held anti-tank weapons along such a long stretch. The Ukrainians only need to get lucky in a few places to cause havoc.
    Yes, having a single column that big seems like a very tempting target for a few hundred soldiers armed with stingers.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,070

    The Labour vote share around 40% seems pretty firm now, 2017 coalition re-built which makes a majority look very difficult at present for the Tories.

    I am going to stick firm with Hung Parliament

    I'm going to stick with what I have said for years "ignore mid-term opinion polls".

    Labour five points lead, or Tory five points lead, or anything else - its just noise.

    Besides, we have real news happening right now, that matters far more than trivia like that.
    Johnson is looking supreme after the invasion.

    Anyone for a snap 2022 GE and a Johnson landslide?
    LOL.
  • jonny83jonny83 Posts: 1,270
    They are still pushing this 'Denazification' line, with the Russian UN ambassador continuing to spout such utter nonsense.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,553
    Heathener said:

    Re JJ's very good post down thread, I hesitate to mock Russian equipment because they're still capable of causing mass destruction.

    However, in my brief time in intelligence we did note the staggeringly basic nature of much of Russian equipment compared to the west. And I also remember reading an amusing report that when Apollo and Soyuz docked in space on 17th July 1975, the cosmonauts were wowed by the equipment in Apollo whilst the US astronauts were gobsmacked by the basic tin can they had docked with. It goes on, but you get the idea.

    Maybe we have been lulled by the ubiquitous AK47 into thinking they're better than they are ...

    (Caveat, it's a long long time since I worked in the area so this may be then, not now)

    Interesting that you used to work in intelligence. I was going to say tell us more but that's probably a stupid thing to ask.
  • BigRichBigRich Posts: 3,492

    IshmaelZ said:

    Russia-Ukraine latest news: Russian military convoy approaching Kyiv now over 17 miles long

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2022/02/28/russia-ukraine-latest-news-war-putin-zelensky-weapons-updates/

    Great clunking fist time

    They are insane. A few hits by drone or rocket-launcher in well-chosen places (and, after all, the Ukrainians know their own land, so will know where those places are), and the whole 17 miles worth grinds to a halt. A distinctly uncomfortable halt, I would imagine.
    Simultaneously destroy the ones at the front and back of the convoy, then you can hit those in the middle is the normal tactic isn't it?
    Well, a bit more complicated than that in the sense that, over 17 miles, you need to ensure they can't just drive around the wrecked vehicles or turn down a different road, but, yes, essentially.
    if its 17 miles long, is that still 'one convoy' or is to not just a very busy road? or even a traffic jam?
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,375
    BigRich said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Russia-Ukraine latest news: Russian military convoy approaching Kyiv now over 17 miles long

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2022/02/28/russia-ukraine-latest-news-war-putin-zelensky-weapons-updates/

    Great clunking fist time

    They are insane. A few hits by drone or rocket-launcher in well-chosen places (and, after all, the Ukrainians know their own land, so will know where those places are), and the whole 17 miles worth grinds to a halt. A distinctly uncomfortable halt, I would imagine.
    Simultaneously destroy the ones at the front and back of the convoy, then you can hit those in the middle is the normal tactic isn't it?
    Well, a bit more complicated than that in the sense that, over 17 miles, you need to ensure they can't just drive around the wrecked vehicles or turn down a different road, but, yes, essentially.
    if its 17 miles long, is that still 'one convoy' or is to not just a very busy road? or even a traffic jam?
    It's a Market Garden.
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830

    The Labour vote share around 40% seems pretty firm now, 2017 coalition re-built which makes a majority look very difficult at present for the Tories.

    I am going to stick firm with Hung Parliament

    I'm going to stick with what I have said for years "ignore mid-term opinion polls".

    Labour five points lead, or Tory five points lead, or anything else - its just noise.

    Besides, we have real news happening right now, that matters far more than trivia like that.
    Johnson is looking supreme after the invasion.

    Anyone for a snap 2022 GE and a Johnson landslide?
    That would be fully as sensible as a snap 2017 GE. polls have barely budged in his favour. Partygate has not gone away, and oligarchgate is coming.

    also, any tory mps out there, my johnson vonc by end feb position is somewhat underwater, if you could do the decent thing...
  • bigglesbiggles Posts: 6,051

    IshmaelZ said:

    Russia-Ukraine latest news: Russian military convoy approaching Kyiv now over 17 miles long

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2022/02/28/russia-ukraine-latest-news-war-putin-zelensky-weapons-updates/

    Great clunking fist time

    They are insane. A few hits by drone or rocket-launcher in well-chosen places (and, after all, the Ukrainians know their own land, so will know where those places are), and the whole 17 miles worth grinds to a halt. A distinctly uncomfortable halt, I would imagine.
    Those drone/plane/rocket-launcher/guerrilla attacks on that convoy look to be the way this war could end. It would effectively be impossible to proceed with the Kyiv attack if that convoy is lost.
    Yep. Russia doesn't have complete air superiority. Even if they did, the drones (assuming the Ukrainians have enough still operational) are hard to stop. And even without the drones, the Russians will have a hell of a difficult job defending themselves from hand-held anti-tank weapons along such a long stretch. The Ukrainians only need to get lucky in a few places to cause havoc.
    The Turkish drones intrigue me. I wonder what the Turkish stocks are, and the build time? Would be possible to make the supply feel infinite without ever declaring you were doing anything.
  • OmniumOmnium Posts: 10,759
    ydoethur said:

    BigRich said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Russia-Ukraine latest news: Russian military convoy approaching Kyiv now over 17 miles long

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2022/02/28/russia-ukraine-latest-news-war-putin-zelensky-weapons-updates/

    Great clunking fist time

    They are insane. A few hits by drone or rocket-launcher in well-chosen places (and, after all, the Ukrainians know their own land, so will know where those places are), and the whole 17 miles worth grinds to a halt. A distinctly uncomfortable halt, I would imagine.
    Simultaneously destroy the ones at the front and back of the convoy, then you can hit those in the middle is the normal tactic isn't it?
    Well, a bit more complicated than that in the sense that, over 17 miles, you need to ensure they can't just drive around the wrecked vehicles or turn down a different road, but, yes, essentially.
    if its 17 miles long, is that still 'one convoy' or is to not just a very busy road? or even a traffic jam?
    It's a Market Garden.
    Monty over-reached, but it was a close thing. The supply corridor wasn't the failure.

  • One better poll for Tories in sequence of Tories going backward little bit each time polls, and it’s noticeable those who didn’t want to talk polls over weekend now want to talk it. 🙂 so okay, because for us Libdems analyse shows there is one certain message across ALL the recent “crisis” polling, and that is Libdems definitely bouncing up in them all. And if we are to analyse most likely reason for this, it surely has to point to the often slow and error strewn performance of Boris and his government over this period?

    Lack of likes to, admittedly one of my more partisan posts celebrating confirmed poll surge, I put down to Libdems already seated for dinner. Except foxy, though foxy is a law unto himself like a proper fox.

    Well obviously it’s just my opinion and analysis. And I don’t have all the long term certainty in what I am suggesting today to prove it. But take what has been happening last couple of days, world open armed and loving to displaced and desperate Ukrainians, apart from UK under the Tories, who are pondering if they can “work the land” fill some of the crappier vacancies, and even worse using excuse some might be spy’s or terrorists, whilst simply lying about their policy in the HoC

    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2022/feb/28/johnson-government-mood-ukrainian-refugees-war

    Isn’t this exactly the type of Tory behaviour, where you have voters recently fluid between Lib Dem and Tory based on how unappealing and dangerous the Labour offer is, has voters flowing now towards the libdems? And if the government continues to be out of touch and mistake laden at times in this crisis, this could just be the start of this realignment of support, prove more durable long term than ephemeral war Lead rally to flag during crisis
    I would just comment I am open to voting for any of the three parties and at this stage I have no idea which

    However, it is fair to say Boris has improved, and his address last night to the Ukrainians in their church was heartfelt and he received an amazing spontaneous standing ovation from the congregation

    Patel announcing that 100, 000 Ukrainians will be accepted into the UK with full rights to work is good and probably higher than will actually arrive

    War has changed everything and predicting the future of politics in the UK is very difficult
    Problem with Boris Johnson's rhetoric, however inspirational, is that you can trust NOTHING that comes out of his mouth.

    NOTHING.

    Perfectly capable of crying tears of woe to your face, while stabbing you in the back. As his record repeatedly demonstrates.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,375
    Omnium said:

    ydoethur said:

    BigRich said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Russia-Ukraine latest news: Russian military convoy approaching Kyiv now over 17 miles long

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2022/02/28/russia-ukraine-latest-news-war-putin-zelensky-weapons-updates/

    Great clunking fist time

    They are insane. A few hits by drone or rocket-launcher in well-chosen places (and, after all, the Ukrainians know their own land, so will know where those places are), and the whole 17 miles worth grinds to a halt. A distinctly uncomfortable halt, I would imagine.
    Simultaneously destroy the ones at the front and back of the convoy, then you can hit those in the middle is the normal tactic isn't it?
    Well, a bit more complicated than that in the sense that, over 17 miles, you need to ensure they can't just drive around the wrecked vehicles or turn down a different road, but, yes, essentially.
    if its 17 miles long, is that still 'one convoy' or is to not just a very busy road? or even a traffic jam?
    It's a Market Garden.
    Monty over-reached, but it was a close thing. The supply corridor wasn't the failure.

    You mean, apart from the failure to get where it was meant to in something vaguely akin to the timeframe it was meant to?

    Admittedly, that was hardly their fault and they did their best.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,070
    Monaco to sanction and freeze assets.
  • Tres said:

    kle4 said:

    tlg86 said:


    At least he doesn’t have a hammer and sickle behind him, but I’m not sure why there’s a Cuban flag there.

    It's so people know that there's a very good chance everything he says can be ignored.
    Talking of flags, on my usual morning walk with the dog I pass a house which flies the Union Jack from a large flagpole in the garden. Today the Ukranian flag was flying with it.

    Anybody else seen similar?
    Yes, my neighbour from Ukraine is flying a flag, it's quite visible from the street as it is a cornerplot.
    I doubt my neighbour is Ukranian and the garden overlooks a park so you can see it a long way off.

    Fortunately the Winchcombe branch of Speznatz is pretty sleepy.
  • OmniumOmnium Posts: 10,759
    ydoethur said:

    Omnium said:

    ydoethur said:

    BigRich said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Russia-Ukraine latest news: Russian military convoy approaching Kyiv now over 17 miles long

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2022/02/28/russia-ukraine-latest-news-war-putin-zelensky-weapons-updates/

    Great clunking fist time

    They are insane. A few hits by drone or rocket-launcher in well-chosen places (and, after all, the Ukrainians know their own land, so will know where those places are), and the whole 17 miles worth grinds to a halt. A distinctly uncomfortable halt, I would imagine.
    Simultaneously destroy the ones at the front and back of the convoy, then you can hit those in the middle is the normal tactic isn't it?
    Well, a bit more complicated than that in the sense that, over 17 miles, you need to ensure they can't just drive around the wrecked vehicles or turn down a different road, but, yes, essentially.
    if its 17 miles long, is that still 'one convoy' or is to not just a very busy road? or even a traffic jam?
    It's a Market Garden.
    Monty over-reached, but it was a close thing. The supply corridor wasn't the failure.

    You mean, apart from the failure to get where it was meant to in something vaguely akin to the timeframe it was meant to?

    Admittedly, that was hardly their fault and they did their best.
    I mean entirely that.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,638
    biggles said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Russia-Ukraine latest news: Russian military convoy approaching Kyiv now over 17 miles long

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2022/02/28/russia-ukraine-latest-news-war-putin-zelensky-weapons-updates/

    Great clunking fist time

    They are insane. A few hits by drone or rocket-launcher in well-chosen places (and, after all, the Ukrainians know their own land, so will know where those places are), and the whole 17 miles worth grinds to a halt. A distinctly uncomfortable halt, I would imagine.
    Simultaneously destroy the ones at the front and back of the convoy, then you can hit those in the middle is the normal tactic isn't it?
    A 17 mile convoy either means they are thick or they are certain of air supremacy and have scouts out securing the convoy.

    Based on the last five days we can’t rule out them being thick….
    17 miles isn't a convoy, it is a traffic jam, and may explain why fuel and food aren't getting through.

    It appears to be the main road to Kyiv from Chernobyl, and may well be all backed up because the airfield at Hostomel remains contested. They may have had that as the main staging area for Kyiv.

  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,083

    One better poll for Tories in sequence of Tories going backward little bit each time polls, and it’s noticeable those who didn’t want to talk polls over weekend now want to talk it. 🙂 so okay, because for us Libdems analyse shows there is one certain message across ALL the recent “crisis” polling, and that is Libdems definitely bouncing up in them all. And if we are to analyse most likely reason for this, it surely has to point to the often slow and error strewn performance of Boris and his government over this period?

    Lack of likes to, admittedly one of my more partisan posts celebrating confirmed poll surge, I put down to Libdems already seated for dinner. Except foxy, though foxy is a law unto himself like a proper fox.

    Well obviously it’s just my opinion and analysis. And I don’t have all the long term certainty in what I am suggesting today to prove it. But take what has been happening last couple of days, world open armed and loving to displaced and desperate Ukrainians, apart from UK under the Tories, who are pondering if they can “work the land” fill some of the crappier vacancies, and even worse using excuse some might be spy’s or terrorists, whilst simply lying about their policy in the HoC

    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2022/feb/28/johnson-government-mood-ukrainian-refugees-war

    Isn’t this exactly the type of Tory behaviour, where you have voters recently fluid between Lib Dem and Tory based on how unappealing and dangerous the Labour offer is, has voters flowing now towards the libdems? And if the government continues to be out of touch and mistake laden at times in this crisis, this could just be the start of this realignment of support, prove more durable long term than ephemeral war Lead rally to flag during crisis
    I would just comment I am open to voting for any of the three parties and at this stage I have no idea which

    However, it is fair to say Boris has improved, and his address last night to the Ukrainians in their church was heartfelt and he received an amazing spontaneous standing ovation from the congregation

    Patel announcing that 100, 000 Ukrainians will be accepted into the UK with full rights to work is good and probably higher than will actually arrive

    War has changed everything and predicting the future of politics in the UK is very difficult
    Perfectly capable of crying tears of woe to your face, while stabbing you in the back.
    He must have long arms.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,175
    Nigelb said:

    Monaco to sanction and freeze assets.

    Including the football team?
  • bigglesbiggles Posts: 6,051

    Tres said:

    kle4 said:

    tlg86 said:


    At least he doesn’t have a hammer and sickle behind him, but I’m not sure why there’s a Cuban flag there.

    It's so people know that there's a very good chance everything he says can be ignored.
    Talking of flags, on my usual morning walk with the dog I pass a house which flies the Union Jack from a large flagpole in the garden. Today the Ukranian flag was flying with it.

    Anybody else seen similar?
    Yes, my neighbour from Ukraine is flying a flag, it's quite visible from the street as it is a cornerplot.
    I doubt my neighbour is Ukranian and the garden overlooks a park so you can see it a long way off.

    Fortunately the Winchcombe branch of Speznatz is pretty sleepy.
    That’s what they want you to think.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 18,355
    One of the mad things about the Russian supply problems is that they haven't even made it that far into Ukraine on most fronts. It's not like they're trying to supply units outside of Dnipro.
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830

    Tres said:

    kle4 said:

    tlg86 said:


    At least he doesn’t have a hammer and sickle behind him, but I’m not sure why there’s a Cuban flag there.

    It's so people know that there's a very good chance everything he says can be ignored.
    Talking of flags, on my usual morning walk with the dog I pass a house which flies the Union Jack from a large flagpole in the garden. Today the Ukranian flag was flying with it.

    Anybody else seen similar?
    Yes, my neighbour from Ukraine is flying a flag, it's quite visible from the street as it is a cornerplot.
    I doubt my neighbour is Ukranian and the garden overlooks a park so you can see it a long way off.

    Fortunately the Winchcombe branch of Speznatz is pretty sleepy.
    you could almost call them ... sleepers.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 35,990
    In the latest move to sanction Russian supporters in the arts world, Edinburgh International Festival have asked the acclaimed Russian conductor Valery Gergiev to resign as Honorary President. He is a Putin supporter who previously supported the annexation of Crimea

    EIF said it had "asked for, and accepted the resignation of, Valery Gergiev as Honorary President of the Festival. Edinburgh is twinned with the city of Kyiv and this action is being taken in sympathy with, and support of, its citizens."
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 35,990
    Shameful

    Our splash tonight - Priti Patel rejects calls for visa rules to be waived for all Ukrainian refugees seeking to enter the UK on "security" grounds.

    Full story by @nedsimons
    https://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/ukrainian-refugee-priti-patel-uk_uk_621cb0f6e4b0afc668c37699 https://twitter.com/KevinASchofield/status/1498363573684387840/photo/1
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 35,990
    Ukrainians are spreading tutorial videos on Tik Tok to teach how to drive an abandoned or captured Russian tank... https://twitter.com/AsaadHannaa/status/1498343442316996614/video/1
  • OmniumOmnium Posts: 10,759
    I've just sent messages to all of the Russians I know that'll most likely break our friendships.

    Enough is enough.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,375
    kle4 said:

    One better poll for Tories in sequence of Tories going backward little bit each time polls, and it’s noticeable those who didn’t want to talk polls over weekend now want to talk it. 🙂 so okay, because for us Libdems analyse shows there is one certain message across ALL the recent “crisis” polling, and that is Libdems definitely bouncing up in them all. And if we are to analyse most likely reason for this, it surely has to point to the often slow and error strewn performance of Boris and his government over this period?

    Lack of likes to, admittedly one of my more partisan posts celebrating confirmed poll surge, I put down to Libdems already seated for dinner. Except foxy, though foxy is a law unto himself like a proper fox.

    Well obviously it’s just my opinion and analysis. And I don’t have all the long term certainty in what I am suggesting today to prove it. But take what has been happening last couple of days, world open armed and loving to displaced and desperate Ukrainians, apart from UK under the Tories, who are pondering if they can “work the land” fill some of the crappier vacancies, and even worse using excuse some might be spy’s or terrorists, whilst simply lying about their policy in the HoC

    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2022/feb/28/johnson-government-mood-ukrainian-refugees-war

    Isn’t this exactly the type of Tory behaviour, where you have voters recently fluid between Lib Dem and Tory based on how unappealing and dangerous the Labour offer is, has voters flowing now towards the libdems? And if the government continues to be out of touch and mistake laden at times in this crisis, this could just be the start of this realignment of support, prove more durable long term than ephemeral war Lead rally to flag during crisis
    I would just comment I am open to voting for any of the three parties and at this stage I have no idea which

    However, it is fair to say Boris has improved, and his address last night to the Ukrainians in their church was heartfelt and he received an amazing spontaneous standing ovation from the congregation

    Patel announcing that 100, 000 Ukrainians will be accepted into the UK with full rights to work is good and probably higher than will actually arrive

    War has changed everything and predicting the future of politics in the UK is very difficult
    Perfectly capable of crying tears of woe to your face, while stabbing you in the back.
    He must have long arms.
    Presumably explains why he's famous for wandering hands...
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,638

    kle4 said:

    tlg86 said:


    At least he doesn’t have a hammer and sickle behind him, but I’m not sure why there’s a Cuban flag there.

    It's so people know that there's a very good chance everything he says can be ignored.
    Talking of flags, on my usual morning walk with the dog I pass a house which flies the Union Jack from a large flagpole in the garden. Today the Ukranian flag was flying with it.

    Anybody else seen similar?
    I bought one the other day, from this place. Quick delivery too.

    sales@theflagshop.co.uk
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 35,990
    Wild. Ukrainian Defense Minister @oleksiireznikov says, "We offer Russian soldiers a choice: die in an unjust war, or be granted full amnesty and 5 million rubles compensation. If they lay down their arms and voluntarily surrender." https://twitter.com/DefenceU/status/1498359087184109572
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,375
    Omnium said:

    I've just sent messages to all of the Russians I know that'll most likely break our friendships.

    Enough is enough.

    Why? Unless they are supporting Putin, it's hardly their fault.
  • bigglesbiggles Posts: 6,051
    Scott_xP said:

    Wild. Ukrainian Defense Minister @oleksiireznikov says, "We offer Russian soldiers a choice: die in an unjust war, or be granted full amnesty and 5 million rubles compensation. If they lay down their arms and voluntarily surrender." https://twitter.com/DefenceU/status/1498359087184109572

    Oooo punchy. I like it. Where could he be getting the cash from….?
  • ChameleonChameleon Posts: 4,264
    ydoethur said:

    Omnium said:

    I've just sent messages to all of the Russians I know that'll most likely break our friendships.

    Enough is enough.

    Why? Unless they are supporting Putin, it's hardly their fault.
    Unless they are actively not supporting Putin it is their fault.
  • pigeonpigeon Posts: 4,839
    jonny83 said:

    They are still pushing this 'Denazification' line, with the Russian UN ambassador continuing to spout such utter nonsense.

    It's bullshit, and they know it's bullshit - but it's bullshit shat out for domestic consumption. Those utterances are for the benefit of ultranationalists and credulous dimwits at home who swallow everything parroted by Russian state television, not the rest of the world.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,375
    Scott_xP said:

    Wild. Ukrainian Defense Minister @oleksiireznikov says, "We offer Russian soldiers a choice: die in an unjust war, or be granted full amnesty and 5 million rubles compensation. If they lay down their arms and voluntarily surrender." https://twitter.com/DefenceU/status/1498359087184109572

    What, each? Fifty thousand dollars is a lot of money!
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,083
    edited February 2022
    Scott_xP said:

    Wild. Ukrainian Defense Minister @oleksiireznikov says, "We offer Russian soldiers a choice: die in an unjust war, or be granted full amnesty and 5 million rubles compensation. If they lay down their arms and voluntarily surrender." https://twitter.com/DefenceU/status/1498359087184109572

    The Ukrainian efforts, successful or not, have certainly been creative and varied. Dug in defence, savvy media efforts, intense diplomacy and psychological appeals and threats to the enemy.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,576
    Scott_xP said:

    Wild. Ukrainian Defense Minister @oleksiireznikov says, "We offer Russian soldiers a choice: die in an unjust war, or be granted full amnesty and 5 million rubles compensation. If they lay down their arms and voluntarily surrender." https://twitter.com/DefenceU/status/1498359087184109572

    I approve of this scheme.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,083
    ydoethur said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Wild. Ukrainian Defense Minister @oleksiireznikov says, "We offer Russian soldiers a choice: die in an unjust war, or be granted full amnesty and 5 million rubles compensation. If they lay down their arms and voluntarily surrender." https://twitter.com/DefenceU/status/1498359087184109572

    What, each? Fifty thousand dollars is a lot of money!
    Pay in installments and you wouldn't need to pay a second, thus saving money, unless you offer to pay it to the widow.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,638

    One of the mad things about the Russian supply problems is that they haven't even made it that far into Ukraine on most fronts. It's not like they're trying to supply units outside of Dnipro.

    The stories of them selling fuel for vodka over the last weeks may well be true.
  • OmniumOmnium Posts: 10,759
    ydoethur said:

    Omnium said:

    I've just sent messages to all of the Russians I know that'll most likely break our friendships.

    Enough is enough.

    Why? Unless they are supporting Putin, it's hardly their fault.
    Because I like Ukranians who I've never met beyond people that don't condemn Putin
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,083
    Nigelb said:

    Monaco to sanction and freeze assets.

    Roman Abramovich's actions suddenly making more sense?
  • OmniumOmnium Posts: 10,759
    Omnium said:

    ydoethur said:

    Omnium said:

    I've just sent messages to all of the Russians I know that'll most likely break our friendships.

    Enough is enough.

    Why? Unless they are supporting Putin, it's hardly their fault.
    Because I like Ukranians who I've never met beyond people that don't condemn Putin
    And incidentally the Ukranians I have met are pretty cool dudes.
  • BigRichBigRich Posts: 3,492
    Scott_xP said:

    Wild. Ukrainian Defense Minister @oleksiireznikov says, "We offer Russian soldiers a choice: die in an unjust war, or be granted full amnesty and 5 million rubles compensation. If they lay down their arms and voluntarily surrender." https://twitter.com/DefenceU/status/1498359087184109572

    This sounds like a good idea, to me, should also come with an offer of residency and/or citercanshp,

    I seed on here before, I think offering Pilots of Russian planes who defect £10,000,000 and UK passport.

    There is nothing more powerful in demoralising and Army than seeing people on your own side defect and or surrender voluntarily.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,368
    .
    IshmaelZ said:

    The Labour vote share around 40% seems pretty firm now, 2017 coalition re-built which makes a majority look very difficult at present for the Tories.

    I am going to stick firm with Hung Parliament

    I'm going to stick with what I have said for years "ignore mid-term opinion polls".

    Labour five points lead, or Tory five points lead, or anything else - its just noise.

    Besides, we have real news happening right now, that matters far more than trivia like that.
    Johnson is looking supreme after the invasion.

    Anyone for a snap 2022 GE and a Johnson landslide?
    That would be fully as sensible as a snap 2017 GE. polls have barely budged in his favour. Partygate has not gone away, and oligarchgate is coming.

    also, any tory mps out there, my johnson vonc by end feb position is somewhat underwater, if you could do the decent thing...
    I've got 16/1 on GE2022.

    I saw Johnson at the Ukrainian Church yesterday and I thought he was dire. He got a standing ovation there and posters on here were suggesting he was sublime. So I thought in for a penny in for thirty five quid.
  • BigRichBigRich Posts: 3,492
    Omnium said:

    I've just sent messages to all of the Russians I know that'll most likely break our friendships.

    Enough is enough.

    What did you say?
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830
    Scott_xP said:

    Wild. Ukrainian Defense Minister @oleksiireznikov says, "We offer Russian soldiers a choice: die in an unjust war, or be granted full amnesty and 5 million rubles compensation. If they lay down their arms and voluntarily surrender." https://twitter.com/DefenceU/status/1498359087184109572

    £34000, or about 5 years wages. At the upper end of estimates of Russian troops in ukr, 200k, that's £6.8bn

    abramovich net worth said to be £10bn odd
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,561
    biggles said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Russia-Ukraine latest news: Russian military convoy approaching Kyiv now over 17 miles long

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2022/02/28/russia-ukraine-latest-news-war-putin-zelensky-weapons-updates/

    Great clunking fist time

    They are insane. A few hits by drone or rocket-launcher in well-chosen places (and, after all, the Ukrainians know their own land, so will know where those places are), and the whole 17 miles worth grinds to a halt. A distinctly uncomfortable halt, I would imagine.
    Those drone/plane/rocket-launcher/guerrilla attacks on that convoy look to be the way this war could end. It would effectively be impossible to proceed with the Kyiv attack if that convoy is lost.
    Yep. Russia doesn't have complete air superiority. Even if they did, the drones (assuming the Ukrainians have enough still operational) are hard to stop. And even without the drones, the Russians will have a hell of a difficult job defending themselves from hand-held anti-tank weapons along such a long stretch. The Ukrainians only need to get lucky in a few places to cause havoc.
    The Turkish drones intrigue me. I wonder what the Turkish stocks are, and the build time? Would be possible to make the supply feel infinite without ever declaring you were doing anything.
    I understand Ukraine was expecting delivery of several more drones (Army and Navy) in 2022. Turkey may have advanced delivery of those. And maybe replaced any that have been lost.

    That said, has Russia claimed/shown footage where it claims to have downed any?
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,083
    pigeon said:

    jonny83 said:

    They are still pushing this 'Denazification' line, with the Russian UN ambassador continuing to spout such utter nonsense.

    It's bullshit, and they know it's bullshit - but it's bullshit shat out for domestic consumption. Those utterances are for the benefit of ultranationalists and credulous dimwits at home who swallow everything parroted by Russian state television, not the rest of the world.
    Sure, but these things do have limitations. Keep selling wilder and wilder dreams and eventually however appealing it might be people awaken with a snap. We can hope it be soon.
  • OmniumOmnium Posts: 10,759
    BigRich said:

    Omnium said:

    I've just sent messages to all of the Russians I know that'll most likely break our friendships.

    Enough is enough.

    What did you say?
    "Hang your head in shame."
  • pigeonpigeon Posts: 4,839
    biggles said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Wild. Ukrainian Defense Minister @oleksiireznikov says, "We offer Russian soldiers a choice: die in an unjust war, or be granted full amnesty and 5 million rubles compensation. If they lay down their arms and voluntarily surrender." https://twitter.com/DefenceU/status/1498359087184109572

    Oooo punchy. I like it. Where could he be getting the cash from….?
    5,000,000 rubles per soldier at current exchange rates equates to about $8.5bn to buy out the entire 190,000 strong Russian invasion force.

    If only it were that simple - and, in the grand scheme of things, cheap. Biden could purchase Ukraine's continued independence from his loose change box.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,375
    edited February 2022
    Foxy said:

    One of the mad things about the Russian supply problems is that they haven't even made it that far into Ukraine on most fronts. It's not like they're trying to supply units outside of Dnipro.

    The stories of them selling fuel for vodka over the last weeks may well be true.
    Five Russians were pursued by a bear. One of them tripped over a branch, and was caught, but the bear still kept coming. A second slipped in the mud, and was caught, but the bear still kept coming. A third had a heart attack, and was caught, but the bear still kept coming. Just as the fourth man thought all hope was lost, his companion reached inside his overcoat, pulled out a machine gun and riddled the bear with bullets.

    'Amazing!' gasped his companion. 'You've saved our lives. But why didn't you do that earlier?'

    The man reaches back into his overcoat and pulls something else out. 'Well, I could have done. But five men is too many to share this one bottle of vodka with.'
  • solarflaresolarflare Posts: 3,705
    Chameleon said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Wild. Ukrainian Defense Minister @oleksiireznikov says, "We offer Russian soldiers a choice: die in an unjust war, or be granted full amnesty and 5 million rubles compensation. If they lay down their arms and voluntarily surrender." https://twitter.com/DefenceU/status/1498359087184109572

    A deal that becomes cheaper for Ukraine every day.
    It'd be ironic if the whole Russian army in or on the border of Ukraine took that up and bankrupted the state.

    Also, don't mention the devaluation of the rouble...
  • ChameleonChameleon Posts: 4,264
    https://twitter.com/AsamiTerajima/status/1498385994395041797

    "⚡️BREAKING: #Russia's foreign ministry said those supplying lethal weapons to #Ukraine would bear responsibility if they are used during Moscow's ongoing invasion."

    We're locked in a battle that can only escalate, with no off ramps unless Putin gets a sudden bout of sanity, or (hopefully) dies or gets removed.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,663
    ydoethur said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Wild. Ukrainian Defense Minister @oleksiireznikov says, "We offer Russian soldiers a choice: die in an unjust war, or be granted full amnesty and 5 million rubles compensation. If they lay down their arms and voluntarily surrender." https://twitter.com/DefenceU/status/1498359087184109572

    What, each? Fifty thousand dollars is a lot of money!
    Even if 100,000 Russians defected, that would 'only' cost $5bn; I imagine continued war is going to cost a lot more than that.
  • Just watching Clive Myrie reporting from Kyiv and I made my boy laugh by saying that I wanted the air raid siren to go off and him to say "I've started so I'll finish" :)

  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,375
    IshmaelZ said:

    .

    IshmaelZ said:

    The Labour vote share around 40% seems pretty firm now, 2017 coalition re-built which makes a majority look very difficult at present for the Tories.

    I am going to stick firm with Hung Parliament

    I'm going to stick with what I have said for years "ignore mid-term opinion polls".

    Labour five points lead, or Tory five points lead, or anything else - its just noise.

    Besides, we have real news happening right now, that matters far more than trivia like that.
    Johnson is looking supreme after the invasion.

    Anyone for a snap 2022 GE and a Johnson landslide?
    That would be fully as sensible as a snap 2017 GE. polls have barely budged in his favour. Partygate has not gone away, and oligarchgate is coming.

    also, any tory mps out there, my johnson vonc by end feb position is somewhat underwater, if you could do the decent thing...
    I've got 16/1 on GE2022.

    I saw Johnson at the Ukrainian Church yesterday and I thought he was dire. He got a standing ovation there and posters on here were suggesting he was sublime. So I thought in for a penny in for thirty five quid.
    He's a fat lying wanker whatever he says in Ukrainian churches, and theres people like bigG saying truly he is the son of God as if two minutes of conventional puffery cancels out betraying and lying to the country again and a fucking gain.
    Hmmm...this one's a maybe.
  • BigRichBigRich Posts: 3,492
    rkrkrk said:

    End of Feb and I have lost my bet with @BigRich that England hospitalizations would exceed 3k/day.

    Will make a £25 donation to pb com shortly.

    With hindsight, I essentially made the bet as hospitalizations were peaking. Think I dramatically underestimated the impact that the booster program would have.

    Good Evening rkrkrk,

    That's very good of you to homer the bet so publicly, you are a nice chap, even when we disagree about lots of things. The lever of concern at the time was real and widespread, even if it trend out t be unfounded. even I did not realise that the point where we placed the bet was almost exactly the peek, or I would not have quibbled about being England only and 2 consecutive days.

    I have not seen many posts from you recently, hope you have been keeping well?

  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,638
    Omnium said:

    ydoethur said:

    Omnium said:

    I've just sent messages to all of the Russians I know that'll most likely break our friendships.

    Enough is enough.

    Why? Unless they are supporting Putin, it's hardly their fault.
    Because I like Ukranians who I've never met beyond people that don't condemn Putin
    It may not be safe for them or their families to denounce Putin.

    My church has been in contact with our Russian sister church but kept it fairly diplomatic. Encouraging them to pray for peace etc. Protestant churches there are often spied on for being Un-Russian.
  • ChameleonChameleon Posts: 4,264
    IshmaelZ said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Wild. Ukrainian Defense Minister @oleksiireznikov says, "We offer Russian soldiers a choice: die in an unjust war, or be granted full amnesty and 5 million rubles compensation. If they lay down their arms and voluntarily surrender." https://twitter.com/DefenceU/status/1498359087184109572

    £34000, or about 5 years wages. At the upper end of estimates of Russian troops in ukr, 200k, that's £6.8bn

    abramovich net worth said to be £10bn odd
    We could fund half of it by selling off Chelski.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,175

    Just watching Clive Myrie reporting from Kyiv and I made my boy laugh by saying that I wanted the air raid siren to go off and him to say "I've started so I'll finish" :)

    It was going off during the Six O'clock News. I was slightly surprised that him and Doucet carried on. He did put a helmet on, but I'm not sure that would help when he's on top of a building!
  • pigeonpigeon Posts: 4,839
    ydoethur said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Wild. Ukrainian Defense Minister @oleksiireznikov says, "We offer Russian soldiers a choice: die in an unjust war, or be granted full amnesty and 5 million rubles compensation. If they lay down their arms and voluntarily surrender." https://twitter.com/DefenceU/status/1498359087184109572

    What, each? Fifty thousand dollars is a lot of money!
    For the whole Russian invasion force, that would equate to around 20 hours' worth of US federal tax revenues. Chicken feed.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,083
    edited February 2022
    Chameleon said:

    https://twitter.com/AsamiTerajima/status/1498385994395041797

    "⚡️BREAKING: #Russia's foreign ministry said those supplying lethal weapons to #Ukraine would bear responsibility if they are used during Moscow's ongoing invasion."

    We're locked in a battle that can only escalate, with no off ramps unless Putin gets a sudden bout of sanity, or (hopefully) dies or gets removed.

    This is part of the problem with Russia's 0-1000 rhetorical escalations. They were practically threatening nuclear war because of economic sanctions and 'aggressive statements' from the west, so don't really have anywhere further to go when talking about more direct actions from the West.

    Besides which, lethal weapons have already been supplied and used, and they know that, so it's too late now.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,663
    Omnium said:

    BigRich said:

    Omnium said:

    I've just sent messages to all of the Russians I know that'll most likely break our friendships.

    Enough is enough.

    What did you say?
    "Hang your head in shame."
    I suspect quite a few of them already were.
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830

    Chameleon said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Wild. Ukrainian Defense Minister @oleksiireznikov says, "We offer Russian soldiers a choice: die in an unjust war, or be granted full amnesty and 5 million rubles compensation. If they lay down their arms and voluntarily surrender." https://twitter.com/DefenceU/status/1498359087184109572

    A deal that becomes cheaper for Ukraine every day.
    It'd be ironic if the whole Russian army in or on the border of Ukraine took that up and bankrupted the state.

    Also, don't mention the devaluation of the rouble...
    I think Also should be On the other hand, no?

    Plus, I'd happily crowdfund buying out 1 Russian, and I imagine there's oligarchs who think buying out 10,000 would be money well spent
  • FrankBoothFrankBooth Posts: 9,826
    Putin appears to have wasted some of his special forces on suicidal missions. I don't really know what goes on in the minds of soldiers but surely some of these guys must feel pretty angry seeing their friends killed and injured. For what? History suggests that ex military personnel can be a very dangerous political beast. Of course Putin has an enormous amount of people in his state security forces. But these people aren't there because they're loyal to Putin. They are there because he pays them to be. What happens if he can't afford to pay them anymore? Is Macron pointing out to him how hopeless his position is? Telling him about the further disastrous consequences of continuing with this madness - total humiliation, possible Gaddafi treatment. Or alternatively there are now a lot of very wealthy people who are furious with him. It would not be hard for them to fund an assassination attempt. The truth is so long as you persist with this war you'll have to watch your back. You're better bet is to get out now.
  • OmniumOmnium Posts: 10,759

    Just watching Clive Myrie reporting from Kyiv and I made my boy laugh by saying that I wanted the air raid siren to go off and him to say "I've started so I'll finish" :)

    They're quite brave. (More than me I think)

    There's a noticeable absence of the adventuring journalist of the Viet-Nam era though.
  • Pagan2 said:

    There is a phrase "give them an inch they take will take a mile" I am pretty sure that the people arguing here to give into to putins demands will be saying the same when he invades estonia, and the same when he invades finland etc....The time to stop him is now simple as that.

    Estonia gets given to Germany in Putin's plan.
  • solarflaresolarflare Posts: 3,705
    IshmaelZ said:

    Chameleon said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Wild. Ukrainian Defense Minister @oleksiireznikov says, "We offer Russian soldiers a choice: die in an unjust war, or be granted full amnesty and 5 million rubles compensation. If they lay down their arms and voluntarily surrender." https://twitter.com/DefenceU/status/1498359087184109572

    A deal that becomes cheaper for Ukraine every day.
    It'd be ironic if the whole Russian army in or on the border of Ukraine took that up and bankrupted the state.

    Also, don't mention the devaluation of the rouble...
    I think Also should be On the other hand, no?

    Plus, I'd happily crowdfund buying out 1 Russian, and I imagine there's oligarchs who think buying out 10,000 would be money well spent
    I was being more tongue-in-cheek than serious on that one, although probably failed to get it across in text.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,576

    biggles said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Russia-Ukraine latest news: Russian military convoy approaching Kyiv now over 17 miles long

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2022/02/28/russia-ukraine-latest-news-war-putin-zelensky-weapons-updates/

    Great clunking fist time

    They are insane. A few hits by drone or rocket-launcher in well-chosen places (and, after all, the Ukrainians know their own land, so will know where those places are), and the whole 17 miles worth grinds to a halt. A distinctly uncomfortable halt, I would imagine.
    Those drone/plane/rocket-launcher/guerrilla attacks on that convoy look to be the way this war could end. It would effectively be impossible to proceed with the Kyiv attack if that convoy is lost.
    Yep. Russia doesn't have complete air superiority. Even if they did, the drones (assuming the Ukrainians have enough still operational) are hard to stop. And even without the drones, the Russians will have a hell of a difficult job defending themselves from hand-held anti-tank weapons along such a long stretch. The Ukrainians only need to get lucky in a few places to cause havoc.
    The Turkish drones intrigue me. I wonder what the Turkish stocks are, and the build time? Would be possible to make the supply feel infinite without ever declaring you were doing anything.
    I understand Ukraine was expecting delivery of several more drones (Army and Navy) in 2022. Turkey may have advanced delivery of those. And maybe replaced any that have been lost.

    That said, has Russia claimed/shown footage where it claims to have downed any?
    They might be difficult to find / not much left if they crash. Their max takeoff weight is much less than a car (under a tonne). Compared to the EF Typhoon, at 23 tonnes.

    https://www.army-technology.com/projects/bayraktar-tb2-tactical-uav/

    In addition, they cost less $1-2 million each, compared to >$100 million for the EF Typhoon.

    They are a game-changer, and the Turks have done brilliantly in getting such a game-changing system into the field.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,083
    edited February 2022
    pigeon said:

    ydoethur said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Wild. Ukrainian Defense Minister @oleksiireznikov says, "We offer Russian soldiers a choice: die in an unjust war, or be granted full amnesty and 5 million rubles compensation. If they lay down their arms and voluntarily surrender." https://twitter.com/DefenceU/status/1498359087184109572

    What, each? Fifty thousand dollars is a lot of money!
    For the whole Russian invasion force, that would equate to around 20 hours' worth of US federal tax revenues. Chicken feed.
    The value of cold hard cash can be much underappreciated (not that I expect this particular offer to pan out). I find it hard read most fantasy novels now with gigantic battles without thinking how on earth the bad guys in particular organised the logistics, and how everyone paid their troops long term. Joe Abercrombie is one who does consider that aspect.
This discussion has been closed.