I’m sure Churchill beat Attlee for standing up to Hitler. Fat lot of good it did the Tories at the 1945 GE.
Attlee spent five years managing the wartime economy specifically to help beat Hitler. I know Churchill accused him of wanting to refound the Gestapo but I don't think that cut much ice.
No analogy is perfect but there’s a lot of talk here of a “Churchillian Bounce”. If you wanted something like that it would be a post Falklands “Thatcher Bounce”. I don’t see how this impacts Johnson’s overall favourability much at all.
There’s actually something a bit Galtieri about the whole military adventure at the moment.
Trying to step back and actually think about events - the thing I could see Starmer doing differently was the decision to supply weapons to Ukraine.
I don't see that. Practically every leader in Europe and the rest of the first world has chosen to help in this way. I would give Starmer a lot more credit than you seem to be doing. He strikes me as an honourable man.
Yeah you’re right - in the end I probably won’t vote for Starmer, but he’s perfectly capable of being a bog standard U.K. PM. It’s so, so refreshing vs his predecessor.
Great to hear. We'll put that on our bus come the GE.
"Vote Labour. We're bog standard."
Hey I’m traditionally British. I would be very impressed by a Labour campaign of “we’re perfectly average - vote for us and we won’t do a lot but we’re not the other guys and we won’t break anything”.
A sentiment more common than admitted. And nothing wrong with it. I share it slightly. I want radical change but I'm scared of it too.
However something else is common and that is right wingers wanting the choice to be between a red meat Tory Party and a bland managerial Labour.
The only radical belief I’ve ever held was in favour of Brexit. Can’t I now live with a choice of wet one nation Tories or New Labour? That’s my ideal.
Well that's a bit sad. Wet One Nation Tories and New Labour both think the one thing you believe in is a bucket of stupid. So you'd be disenfranchised.
This is already turning into a strategic nightmare for Putin, even if he “wins” in Ukraine by changing the regime. He has United the West, fiercely revived NATO, got Germany to reverse decades of pacifism (not in his favour) and made his feared army look feeble. And everyone in the world now hates him, or is, at the very least, horribly embarrassed by him
It is difficult to see how it could have gone worse
I know Zelenskyy is prepared to be martyred for the cause, but wouldn't it make more sense to draw Russian fire to Kyiv, while being safe elsewhere? Perhaps he is. Then the Ukrainians can mop up ground forces without the threat of Ukraine being without its influential figurehead.
I'd guess he sees a morale boosting effect from his current path more than anything else. Riskier, but inspiration can work wonders.
I think we have to get over this fear that Putin will use WMDs. What are we going to do, accept his domination because he might use WMD's? Fuck that. I'd rather die than be Putin's slave. The assertive thing to do would subtly mention that mutually assured destruction applies and carry on with the business of defending our allies. We should be fighting with the Ukrainians.
There's no suggestion Putin and Russia are going to directly invade or attack the armed forces or territory of any NATO country. As someone who lives in London, my life expectancy in a nuclear war can be measured in minutes - I'll draw little comfort in that period of absolute terror knowing I won't be "Putin's slave".
Nuclear conflict means millions of deaths and the degradation of human civilisation - and you worry about being someone's slave. In any case, Putin can barely run a bath let alone conquer Europe.
We need to confine the conflict to Ukraine and work tirelessly for a negotiated ceasefire and withdrawal of Russian forces. Let's be resolute in support of Ukraine and generous in response to the looming humanitarian crisis.
As a wise man once said, jaw-jaw is always better than war-war.
Why publicise? The Russians will now be looking out for it to shoot it down. Putin will try and use it as a warning shot to NATO to stay out
You are really not very you good at this
Russia shooting down a UK aircraft would be an act of war against a NATO country
Putin has already warned NATO to stay out of Ukraine. He has the biggest nuclear weapons arsenal in the world.
Even if it is shot down, while he remains Russian President what are we going to realistically do beyond economic sanctions? We will in theory defend NATO nations but that is it.
As far as Ukraine goes we have given them all the supplies and weapons we could before the invasion and should now stay out of it
I was with you all the way on paragraph one and two, and then it all just unravelled.
As a committed Christian how do you square the circle you have created in your third paragraph? Can we sit and watch innocents die at the hands of a Dictator and wash our hands of them?
If the alternative is WW3.
We should defend NATO nations that is it.
Better Red than dead?
Not me son. Quite what a sixty year old coward could do if this escalates I don't know, but if my sacrifice would save my sons for a long and happy life, I'd do whatever it takes Easily said, from an armchair in South Wales, but I've though hard about it today.
That is up to them. Brave but they do so at their own risk
I have to say once again I find myself in unlikely agreement. NATO has to be very careful not to cross the line into direct involvement. There's an overwhelming notion around we must "do something" to help Ukraine - perhaps but risking an escalation toward the unthinkable isn't it.
I realise this may be an unpopular view on here tonight but there's a limit to what we can and should do. Help the refugees by all means, offer sanctuary in the UK if we can but we cannot get drawn into this fight - the stakes are simply too high. We can apply economic pressure on Russia (and we should) but we cannot force Putin into a corner where he feels trapped and has no option but to escalate.
We need to be tirelessly pushing for a negotiated ceasefire - we need to use any back channel we have to tell the Russian Government this is a disastrous course of action and try to persuade the Chinese or any one else to press Putin into ending this sooner rather than later.
Ye. Lots of brave keyboard warriors who have no clue about geopolitics.
Reminds me of my first year seminars during my international relations undergrad. Almost everyone was a liberal interventionist. By the third year, pretty much everyone was a realist.
This is a straw man argument. We are not talking about boots on the ground inside Ukraine. All the Western governments have been very clear about that. Nor the aerial equivalent with no fly zones etc. But we absolutely should be supplying the Ukrainians with everything they need to try and resist. The only way this ends well is if Putin loses and is removed. If he doesn't then we have sold Ukraine down the river and in a few years we will be having the same arguments about the Baltic States. And at that point Article 5 gets triggered and the whole world goes to hell.
More like minimising the suffering of the Ukrainians....Street to Street combat with the Russians will take an immense toll
Sometimes a toll is worth paying.
Of course easy for me to say, but it is also what they seem to be saying. What arrogance it would be to tell them their own country is not worth fighting for, that their choice is merely to be on their knees and hope for mercy from an enemy whose irrationality has just been powerfully demonstrated.
This is already turning into a strategic nightmare for Putin, even if he “wins” in Ukraine by changing the regime. He has United the West, fiercely revived NATO, got Germany to reverse decades of pacifism (not in his favour) and made his feared army look feeble. And everyone in the world now hates him, or is, at the very least, horribly embarrassed by him
It is difficult to see how it could have gone worse
Yep. That's the way it looks tonight. And maybe even more of a problem for him, he has utterly fucked the playboy lifestyle of his rich mates and supporters who relied on spending most of the year well away from his shitty regime and living it large in London and Paris and so on.
I think we have to get over this fear that Putin will use WMDs. What are we going to do, accept his domination because he might use WMD's? Fuck that. I'd rather die than be Putin's slave. The assertive thing to do would subtly mention that mutually assured destruction applies and carry on with the business of defending our allies. We should be fighting with the Ukrainians.
There's no suggestion Putin and Russia are going to directly invade or attack the armed forces or territory of any NATO country. As someone who lives in London, my life expectancy in a nuclear war can be measured in minutes - I'll draw little comfort in that period of absolute terror knowing I won't be "Putin's slave".
Nuclear conflict means millions of deaths and the degradation of human civilisation - and you worry about being someone's slave. In any case, Putin can barely run a bath let alone conquer Europe.
We need to confine the conflict to Ukraine and work tirelessly for a negotiated ceasefire and withdrawal of Russian forces. Let's be resolute in support of Ukraine and generous in response to the looming humanitarian crisis.
As a wise man once said, jaw-jaw is always better than war-war.
This might be scant consolidation but of Russia's 6,000+ nukes most are held in reserve and only 1,600 are immediately deployable. And then there's the question of whether they will all fire and target properly after all these years.
He doesn't have time to bring all the rest of them online and up to scratch if it gets that far. And he's got to target all of Europe, the UK and the US with that. He wouldn't be able to guarantee universal destruction.
Meanwhile France and the UK (combined) can deploy a third of his number alone, and target them properly, and the US has well over 5,000 of them.
So, if he did use them enough of them in an all-out first strike enough of the West would survive for him to be utterly annihilated*.
It's way too risky and therefore bluster.
(*Btw, total global current nuclear stocks aren't enough to wipe out all of humanity even if evenly targeted on all the major cities at once - I think the estimate is a max of 3 billion dead so 6 billion survivors, and humanity goes on)
Only nuclear powers would likely be targeted in a nuclear war. Noones going to aim at Oslo and Geneva. Us OTOH...
This is already turning into a strategic nightmare for Putin, even if he “wins” in Ukraine by changing the regime. He has United the West, fiercely revived NATO, got Germany to reverse decades of pacifism (not in his favour) and made his feared army look feeble. And everyone in the world now hates him, or is, at the very least, horribly embarrassed by him
It is difficult to see how it could have gone worse
Yep. That's the way it looks tonight. And maybe even more of a problem for him, he has utterly fucked the playboy lifestyle of his rich mates and supporters who relied on spending most of the year well away from his shitty regime and living it large in London and Paris and so on.
Good luck getting your money now kids.
They'll just sell a few of their London properties I imagine.
That is up to them. Brave but they do so at their own risk
I have to say once again I find myself in unlikely agreement. NATO has to be very careful not to cross the line into direct involvement. There's an overwhelming notion around we must "do something" to help Ukraine - perhaps but risking an escalation toward the unthinkable isn't it.
I realise this may be an unpopular view on here tonight but there's a limit to what we can and should do. Help the refugees by all means, offer sanctuary in the UK if we can but we cannot get drawn into this fight - the stakes are simply too high. We can apply economic pressure on Russia (and we should) but we cannot force Putin into a corner where he feels trapped and has no option but to escalate.
We need to be tirelessly pushing for a negotiated ceasefire - we need to use any back channel we have to tell the Russian Government this is a disastrous course of action and try to persuade the Chinese or any one else to press Putin into ending this sooner rather than later.
I'm glad someone is saying this. Everyone on here feels desperately sorry for Ukraine and wants Putin to be stopped but starting a world war over it just means that everyone dies. What happened to Hungary, Czechoslovakia and East Germany was no less horrific but who can honestly say that things would have been better if the West had intervened? Half a century later those countries are free democracies not an irradiated wasteland. NATO is as it always was the line in the sand
That is up to them. Brave but they do so at their own risk
I have to say once again I find myself in unlikely agreement. NATO has to be very careful not to cross the line into direct involvement. There's an overwhelming notion around we must "do something" to help Ukraine - perhaps but risking an escalation toward the unthinkable isn't it.
I realise this may be an unpopular view on here tonight but there's a limit to what we can and should do. Help the refugees by all means, offer sanctuary in the UK if we can but we cannot get drawn into this fight - the stakes are simply too high. We can apply economic pressure on Russia (and we should) but we cannot force Putin into a corner where he feels trapped and has no option but to escalate.
We need to be tirelessly pushing for a negotiated ceasefire - we need to use any back channel we have to tell the Russian Government this is a disastrous course of action and try to persuade the Chinese or any one else to press Putin into ending this sooner rather than later.
Ye. Lots of brave keyboard warriors who have no clue about geopolitics.
Reminds me of my first year seminars during my international relations undergrad. Almost everyone was a liberal interventionist. By the third year, pretty much everyone was a realist.
This is a straw man argument. We are not talking about boots on the ground inside Ukraine. All the Western governments have been very clear about that. Nor the aerial equivalent with no fly zones etc. But we absolutely should be supplying the Ukrainians with everything they need to try and resist. The only way this ends well is if Putin loses and is removed. If he doesn't then we have sold Ukraine down the river and in a few years we will be having the same arguments about the Baltic States. And at that point Article 5 gets triggered and the whole world goes to hell.
Yes indeed.
And I have to say I find affected world weary realpolitik attitudes no less artificial than if someone posted they were about to grab a gun and rush to the front. There is nothing wrong, nothing, in people expressing their view about what they believe should be an appropriate course of action, even extreme courses. Some will be wrong, or impractical, and be called out as such, but lazy talk of keyboard warriors is clearly designed to delegitimise any attempt at honest debate and commentary by implying any comment, however reasonable, is fundamentally undermined due to the source.
That is up to them. Brave but they do so at their own risk
I have to say once again I find myself in unlikely agreement. NATO has to be very careful not to cross the line into direct involvement. There's an overwhelming notion around we must "do something" to help Ukraine - perhaps but risking an escalation toward the unthinkable isn't it.
I realise this may be an unpopular view on here tonight but there's a limit to what we can and should do. Help the refugees by all means, offer sanctuary in the UK if we can but we cannot get drawn into this fight - the stakes are simply too high. We can apply economic pressure on Russia (and we should) but we cannot force Putin into a corner where he feels trapped and has no option but to escalate.
We need to be tirelessly pushing for a negotiated ceasefire - we need to use any back channel we have to tell the Russian Government this is a disastrous course of action and try to persuade the Chinese or any one else to press Putin into ending this sooner rather than later.
Ye. Lots of brave keyboard warriors who have no clue about geopolitics.
Reminds me of my first year seminars during my international relations undergrad. Almost everyone was a liberal interventionist. By the third year, pretty much everyone was a realist.
This is a straw man argument. We are not talking about boots on the ground inside Ukraine. All the Western governments have been very clear about that. Nor the aerial equivalent with no fly zones etc. But we absolutely should be supplying the Ukrainians with everything they need to try and resist. The only way this ends well is if Putin loses and is removed. If he doesn't then we have sold Ukraine down the river and in a few years we will be having the same arguments about the Baltic States. And at that point Article 5 gets triggered and the whole world goes to hell.
Yep. We will be back here again in 2024 when Trump wins a landslide only the USA will not be anywhere to be found because POTUS is in Moscow sucking Putin's dick.
That is up to them. Brave but they do so at their own risk
I have to say once again I find myself in unlikely agreement. NATO has to be very careful not to cross the line into direct involvement. There's an overwhelming notion around we must "do something" to help Ukraine - perhaps but risking an escalation toward the unthinkable isn't it.
I realise this may be an unpopular view on here tonight but there's a limit to what we can and should do. Help the refugees by all means, offer sanctuary in the UK if we can but we cannot get drawn into this fight - the stakes are simply too high. We can apply economic pressure on Russia (and we should) but we cannot force Putin into a corner where he feels trapped and has no option but to escalate.
We need to be tirelessly pushing for a negotiated ceasefire - we need to use any back channel we have to tell the Russian Government this is a disastrous course of action and try to persuade the Chinese or any one else to press Putin into ending this sooner rather than later.
Ye. Lots of brave keyboard warriors who have no clue about geopolitics.
Reminds me of my first year seminars during my international relations undergrad. Almost everyone was a liberal internationalist. By the third year, pretty much everyone was a realist.
Agreed...how many on here would be prepared to fight street to Street...let us pray for the ukrainian people and hope they don't pay a heavy price for their resistance
Very important that whatever your views on gender neutral toilets, Brexit or taxation should be expressed through the medium of telling Vlad to fuck himself.
I’m sure Churchill beat Attlee for standing up to Hitler. Fat lot of good it did the Tories at the 1945 GE.
Attlee spent five years managing the wartime economy specifically to help beat Hitler. I know Churchill accused him of wanting to refound the Gestapo but I don't think that cut much ice.
No analogy is perfect but there’s a lot of talk here of a “Churchillian Bounce”. If you wanted something like that it would be a post Falklands “Thatcher Bounce”. I don’t see how this impacts Johnson’s overall favourability much at all.
There’s actually something a bit Galtieri about the whole military adventure at the moment.
Trying to step back and actually think about events - the thing I could see Starmer doing differently was the decision to supply weapons to Ukraine.
I don't see that. Practically every leader in Europe and the rest of the first world has chosen to help in this way. I would give Starmer a lot more credit than you seem to be doing. He strikes me as an honourable man.
Yeah you’re right - in the end I probably won’t vote for Starmer, but he’s perfectly capable of being a bog standard U.K. PM. It’s so, so refreshing vs his predecessor.
Great to hear. We'll put that on our bus come the GE.
"Vote Labour. We're bog standard."
Hey I’m traditionally British. I would be very impressed by a Labour campaign of “we’re perfectly average - vote for us and we won’t do a lot but we’re not the other guys and we won’t break anything”.
A sentiment more common than admitted. And nothing wrong with it. I share it slightly. I want radical change but I'm scared of it too.
However something else is common and that is right wingers wanting the choice to be between a red meat Tory Party and a bland managerial Labour.
The only radical belief I’ve ever held was in favour of Brexit. Can’t I now live with a choice of wet one nation Tories or New Labour? That’s my ideal.
Well that's a bit sad. Wet One Nation Tories and New Labour both think the one thing you believe in is a bucket of stupid. So you'd be disenfranchised.
Give it five years. The soggy centre evolves. Tbh I think it already has. And it’s not the only thing I believe in, just the only radical position. There’s not many of use who wanted a hard Brexit but open borders….
I think we have to get over this fear that Putin will use WMDs. What are we going to do, accept his domination because he might use WMD's? Fuck that. I'd rather die than be Putin's slave. The assertive thing to do would subtly mention that mutually assured destruction applies and carry on with the business of defending our allies. We should be fighting with the Ukrainians.
There's no suggestion Putin and Russia are going to directly invade or attack the armed forces or territory of any NATO country. As someone who lives in London, my life expectancy in a nuclear war can be measured in minutes - I'll draw little comfort in that period of absolute terror knowing I won't be "Putin's slave".
Nuclear conflict means millions of deaths and the degradation of human civilisation - and you worry about being someone's slave. In any case, Putin can barely run a bath let alone conquer Europe.
We need to confine the conflict to Ukraine and work tirelessly for a negotiated ceasefire and withdrawal of Russian forces. Let's be resolute in support of Ukraine and generous in response to the looming humanitarian crisis.
As a wise man once said, jaw-jaw is always better than war-war.
This might be scant consolidation but of Russia's 6,000+ nukes most are held in reserve and only 1,600 are immediately deployable. And then there's the question of whether they will all fire and target properly after all these years.
He doesn't have time to bring all the rest of them online and up to scratch if it gets that far. And he's got to target all of Europe, the UK and the US with that. He wouldn't be able to guarantee universal destruction.
Meanwhile France and the UK (combined) can deploy a third of his number alone, and target them properly, and the US has well over 5,000 of them.
So, if he did use them enough of them in an all-out first strike enough of the West would survive for him to be utterly annihilated*.
It's way too risky and therefore bluster.
(*Btw, total global current nuclear stocks aren't enough to wipe out all of humanity even if evenly targeted on all the major cities at once - I think the estimate is a max of 3 billion dead so 6 billion survivors, and humanity goes on)
Only nuclear powers would likely be targeted in a nuclear war. Noones going to aim at Oslo and Geneva. Us OTOH...
When the Russia war plans were revealed at the end of the Cold War, every vaguely Western country was targeted. New Zealand and Australia were to be wiped out - despite their anti-nuclear stances.
The conventional military plans included invading Sweden and using chemical weapons there. With escalation to tactical nuclear weapons on the table....
I think we have to get over this fear that Putin will use WMDs. What are we going to do, accept his domination because he might use WMD's? Fuck that. I'd rather die than be Putin's slave. The assertive thing to do would subtly mention that mutually assured destruction applies and carry on with the business of defending our allies. We should be fighting with the Ukrainians.
There's no suggestion Putin and Russia are going to directly invade or attack the armed forces or territory of any NATO country. As someone who lives in London, my life expectancy in a nuclear war can be measured in minutes - I'll draw little comfort in that period of absolute terror knowing I won't be "Putin's slave".
Nuclear conflict means millions of deaths and the degradation of human civilisation - and you worry about being someone's slave. In any case, Putin can barely run a bath let alone conquer Europe.
We need to confine the conflict to Ukraine and work tirelessly for a negotiated ceasefire and withdrawal of Russian forces. Let's be resolute in support of Ukraine and generous in response to the looming humanitarian crisis.
As a wise man once said, jaw-jaw is always better than war-war.
This might be scant consolidation but of Russia's 6,000+ nukes most are held in reserve and only 1,600 are immediately deployable. And then there's the question of whether they will all fire and target properly after all these years.
He doesn't have time to bring all the rest of them online and up to scratch if it gets that far. And he's got to target all of Europe, the UK and the US with that. He wouldn't be able to guarantee universal destruction.
Meanwhile France and the UK (combined) can deploy a third of his number alone, and target them properly, and the US has well over 5,000 of them.
So, if he did use them enough of them in an all-out first strike enough of the West would survive for him to be utterly annihilated*.
It's way too risky and therefore bluster.
(*Btw, total global current nuclear stocks aren't enough to wipe out all of humanity even if evenly targeted on all the major cities at once - I think the estimate is a max of 3 billion dead so 6 billion survivors, and humanity goes on)
Only nuclear powers would likely be targeted in a nuclear war. Noones going to aim at Oslo and Geneva. Us OTOH...
Wait a gosh darn minute, I was told those Tridents based 25 miles away from me were keeping me safe.
That is up to them. Brave but they do so at their own risk
I have to say once again I find myself in unlikely agreement. NATO has to be very careful not to cross the line into direct involvement. There's an overwhelming notion around we must "do something" to help Ukraine - perhaps but risking an escalation toward the unthinkable isn't it.
I realise this may be an unpopular view on here tonight but there's a limit to what we can and should do. Help the refugees by all means, offer sanctuary in the UK if we can but we cannot get drawn into this fight - the stakes are simply too high. We can apply economic pressure on Russia (and we should) but we cannot force Putin into a corner where he feels trapped and has no option but to escalate.
We need to be tirelessly pushing for a negotiated ceasefire - we need to use any back channel we have to tell the Russian Government this is a disastrous course of action and try to persuade the Chinese or any one else to press Putin into ending this sooner rather than later.
Ye. Lots of brave keyboard warriors who have no clue about geopolitics.
Reminds me of my first year seminars during my international relations undergrad. Almost everyone was a liberal internationalist. By the third year, pretty much everyone was a realist.
Agreed...how many on here would be prepared to fight street to Street...let us pray for the ukrainian people and hope they don't pay a heavy price for their resistance
No one truly knows whether they would fight to keep their street from an invader until it actually happens.
This is already turning into a strategic nightmare for Putin, even if he “wins” in Ukraine by changing the regime. He has United the West, fiercely revived NATO, got Germany to reverse decades of pacifism (not in his favour) and made his feared army look feeble. And everyone in the world now hates him, or is, at the very least, horribly embarrassed by him
It is difficult to see how it could have gone worse
Yep. That's the way it looks tonight. And maybe even more of a problem for him, he has utterly fucked the playboy lifestyle of his rich mates and supporters who relied on spending most of the year well away from his shitty regime and living it large in London and Paris and so on.
Good luck getting your money now kids.
They'll just sell a few of their London properties I imagine.
I think we have to get over this fear that Putin will use WMDs. What are we going to do, accept his domination because he might use WMD's? Fuck that. I'd rather die than be Putin's slave. The assertive thing to do would subtly mention that mutually assured destruction applies and carry on with the business of defending our allies. We should be fighting with the Ukrainians.
There's no suggestion Putin and Russia are going to directly invade or attack the armed forces or territory of any NATO country. As someone who lives in London, my life expectancy in a nuclear war can be measured in minutes - I'll draw little comfort in that period of absolute terror knowing I won't be "Putin's slave".
Nuclear conflict means millions of deaths and the degradation of human civilisation - and you worry about being someone's slave. In any case, Putin can barely run a bath let alone conquer Europe.
We need to confine the conflict to Ukraine and work tirelessly for a negotiated ceasefire and withdrawal of Russian forces. Let's be resolute in support of Ukraine and generous in response to the looming humanitarian crisis.
As a wise man once said, jaw-jaw is always better than war-war.
This might be scant consolidation but of Russia's 6,000+ nukes most are held in reserve and only 1,600 are immediately deployable. And then there's the question of whether they will all fire and target properly after all these years.
He doesn't have time to bring all the rest of them online and up to scratch if it gets that far. And he's got to target all of Europe, the UK and the US with that. He wouldn't be able to guarantee universal destruction.
Meanwhile France and the UK (combined) can deploy a third of his number alone, and target them properly, and the US has well over 5,000 of them.
So, if he did use them enough of them in an all-out first strike enough of the West would survive for him to be utterly annihilated*.
It's way too risky and therefore bluster.
(*Btw, total global current nuclear stocks aren't enough to wipe out all of humanity even if evenly targeted on all the major cities at once - I think the estimate is a max of 3 billion dead so 6 billion survivors, and humanity goes on)
Only nuclear powers would likely be targeted in a nuclear war. Noones going to aim at Oslo and Geneva. Us OTOH...
Wait a gosh darn minute, I was told those Tridents based 25 miles away from me were keeping me safe.
That is up to them. Brave but they do so at their own risk
I have to say once again I find myself in unlikely agreement. NATO has to be very careful not to cross the line into direct involvement. There's an overwhelming notion around we must "do something" to help Ukraine - perhaps but risking an escalation toward the unthinkable isn't it.
I realise this may be an unpopular view on here tonight but there's a limit to what we can and should do. Help the refugees by all means, offer sanctuary in the UK if we can but we cannot get drawn into this fight - the stakes are simply too high. We can apply economic pressure on Russia (and we should) but we cannot force Putin into a corner where he feels trapped and has no option but to escalate.
We need to be tirelessly pushing for a negotiated ceasefire - we need to use any back channel we have to tell the Russian Government this is a disastrous course of action and try to persuade the Chinese or any one else to press Putin into ending this sooner rather than later.
Ye. Lots of brave keyboard warriors who have no clue about geopolitics.
Reminds me of my first year seminars during my international relations undergrad. Almost everyone was a liberal interventionist. By the third year, pretty much everyone was a realist.
This is a straw man argument. We are not talking about boots on the ground inside Ukraine. All the Western governments have been very clear about that. Nor the aerial equivalent with no fly zones etc. But we absolutely should be supplying the Ukrainians with everything they need to try and resist. The only way this ends well is if Putin loses and is removed. If he doesn't then we have sold Ukraine down the river and in a few years we will be having the same arguments about the Baltic States. And at that point Article 5 gets triggered and the whole world goes to hell.
Yes indeed.
And I have to say I find affected world weary realpolitik attitudes no less artificial than if someone posted they were about to grab a gun and rush to the front. There is nothing wrong, nothing, in people expressing their view about what they believe should be an appropriate course of action, even extreme courses. Some will be wrong, or impractical, and be called out as such, but lazy talk of keyboard warriors is clearly designed to delegitimise any attempt at honest debate and commentary by implying any comment, however reasonable, is fundamentally undermined due to the source.
Agreed. Though I’ll make an exception for @PJohnson .
That is up to them. Brave but they do so at their own risk
I have to say once again I find myself in unlikely agreement. NATO has to be very careful not to cross the line into direct involvement. There's an overwhelming notion around we must "do something" to help Ukraine - perhaps but risking an escalation toward the unthinkable isn't it.
I realise this may be an unpopular view on here tonight but there's a limit to what we can and should do. Help the refugees by all means, offer sanctuary in the UK if we can but we cannot get drawn into this fight - the stakes are simply too high. We can apply economic pressure on Russia (and we should) but we cannot force Putin into a corner where he feels trapped and has no option but to escalate.
We need to be tirelessly pushing for a negotiated ceasefire - we need to use any back channel we have to tell the Russian Government this is a disastrous course of action and try to persuade the Chinese or any one else to press Putin into ending this sooner rather than later.
Ye. Lots of brave keyboard warriors who have no clue about geopolitics.
Reminds me of my first year seminars during my international relations undergrad. Almost everyone was a liberal internationalist. By the third year, pretty much everyone was a realist.
Agreed...how many on here would be prepared to fight street to Street...let us pray for the ukrainian people and hope they don't pay a heavy price for their resistance
Your trolling is a tad too obvious Vlad.
If they pay a heavy price its because of their would-be oppressors invading them. But hopefully the resistance does well to either prevent that or to at least inflict a heavy price on those invading.
The Kyiv Independent@KyivIndependent·1h⚡️Multiple reports suggest that Russian forces are about to conduct heavy airstrikes and rocket attacks against Kyiv.
fighting in urban areas is hell, to both the attacker and defender, fighting in urban areas that have been bombed is self evidently supper very bad for the defenders but is also supper-hell for the attackers.
If Putin destroys Kyiv its because he no longer plans of taking the city, (or he thinks he has no chose)
I think we have to get over this fear that Putin will use WMDs. What are we going to do, accept his domination because he might use WMD's? Fuck that. I'd rather die than be Putin's slave. The assertive thing to do would subtly mention that mutually assured destruction applies and carry on with the business of defending our allies. We should be fighting with the Ukrainians.
There's no suggestion Putin and Russia are going to directly invade or attack the armed forces or territory of any NATO country. As someone who lives in London, my life expectancy in a nuclear war can be measured in minutes - I'll draw little comfort in that period of absolute terror knowing I won't be "Putin's slave".
Nuclear conflict means millions of deaths and the degradation of human civilisation - and you worry about being someone's slave. In any case, Putin can barely run a bath let alone conquer Europe.
We need to confine the conflict to Ukraine and work tirelessly for a negotiated ceasefire and withdrawal of Russian forces. Let's be resolute in support of Ukraine and generous in response to the looming humanitarian crisis.
As a wise man once said, jaw-jaw is always better than war-war.
This might be scant consolidation but of Russia's 6,000+ nukes most are held in reserve and only 1,600 are immediately deployable. And then there's the question of whether they will all fire and target properly after all these years.
He doesn't have time to bring all the rest of them online and up to scratch if it gets that far. And he's got to target all of Europe, the UK and the US with that. He wouldn't be able to guarantee universal destruction.
Meanwhile France and the UK (combined) can deploy a third of his number alone, and target them properly, and the US has well over 5,000 of them.
So, if he did use them enough of them in an all-out first strike enough of the West would survive for him to be utterly annihilated*.
It's way too risky and therefore bluster.
(*Btw, total global current nuclear stocks aren't enough to wipe out all of humanity even if evenly targeted on all the major cities at once - I think the estimate is a max of 3 billion dead so 6 billion survivors, and humanity goes on)
Only nuclear powers would likely be targeted in a nuclear war. Noones going to aim at Oslo and Geneva. Us OTOH...
Wait a gosh darn minute, I was told those Tridents based 25 miles away from me were keeping me safe.
Repeatedly deferring the Trident replacement is not looking like a great decision right now
Not happy with the pile-on on PJohnson. Better to counter his points with arguments than just say "troll".
I've replied several times. I cannot say it has advanced the debate in any way, some debates are not really capable of being advanced.
And while I believe the internet should be a more polite space, you do need to have skin thick enough to survive being called a troll from time to time, particularly if you are making the same point over and over.
I think we have to get over this fear that Putin will use WMDs. What are we going to do, accept his domination because he might use WMD's? Fuck that. I'd rather die than be Putin's slave. The assertive thing to do would subtly mention that mutually assured destruction applies and carry on with the business of defending our allies. We should be fighting with the Ukrainians.
There's no suggestion Putin and Russia are going to directly invade or attack the armed forces or territory of any NATO country. As someone who lives in London, my life expectancy in a nuclear war can be measured in minutes - I'll draw little comfort in that period of absolute terror knowing I won't be "Putin's slave".
Nuclear conflict means millions of deaths and the degradation of human civilisation - and you worry about being someone's slave. In any case, Putin can barely run a bath let alone conquer Europe.
We need to confine the conflict to Ukraine and work tirelessly for a negotiated ceasefire and withdrawal of Russian forces. Let's be resolute in support of Ukraine and generous in response to the looming humanitarian crisis.
As a wise man once said, jaw-jaw is always better than war-war.
This might be scant consolidation but of Russia's 6,000+ nukes most are held in reserve and only 1,600 are immediately deployable. And then there's the question of whether they will all fire and target properly after all these years.
He doesn't have time to bring all the rest of them online and up to scratch if it gets that far. And he's got to target all of Europe, the UK and the US with that. He wouldn't be able to guarantee universal destruction.
Meanwhile France and the UK (combined) can deploy a third of his number alone, and target them properly, and the US has well over 5,000 of them.
So, if he did use them enough of them in an all-out first strike enough of the West would survive for him to be utterly annihilated*.
It's way too risky and therefore bluster.
(*Btw, total global current nuclear stocks aren't enough to wipe out all of humanity even if evenly targeted on all the major cities at once - I think the estimate is a max of 3 billion dead so 6 billion survivors, and humanity goes on)
Rolling your shit in glitter, giving it eyes and calling it Colin might persuade some but I'm not eating it.
The idea is to avoid escalating to a nuclear confrontation because the integrity of Ukraine is not worth the annihilation of Western civilisation.
Not 'hurr durr I reject the last 70 years of nuclear theory' and making us all eat your caterpillar.
Why publicise? The Russians will now be looking out for it to shoot it down. Putin will try and use it as a warning shot to NATO to stay out
You are really not very you good at this
Russia shooting down a UK aircraft would be an act of war against a NATO country
Putin has already warned NATO to stay out of Ukraine. He has the biggest nuclear weapons arsenal in the world.
Even if it is shot down, while he remains Russian President what are we going to realistically do beyond economic sanctions? We will in theory defend NATO nations but that is it.
As far as Ukraine goes we have given them all the supplies and weapons we could before the invasion and should now stay out of it
Good grief! This from the man who was more than happy to send the tanks in to Gibraltar and Scotland.
"If you tolerate this..."
There is a distinction between defending British territory, which I would support even against Russia and taking military action against a military superpower in a war in a foreign country that is not even in NATO
There is also a distinction between supplying weapons, and taking military action - which you do not seem to understand.
This is already turning into a strategic nightmare for Putin, even if he “wins” in Ukraine by changing the regime. He has United the West, fiercely revived NATO, got Germany to reverse decades of pacifism (not in his favour) and made his feared army look feeble. And everyone in the world now hates him, or is, at the very least, horribly embarrassed by him
It is difficult to see how it could have gone worse
Yep. That's the way it looks tonight. And maybe even more of a problem for him, he has utterly fucked the playboy lifestyle of his rich mates and supporters who relied on spending most of the year well away from his shitty regime and living it large in London and Paris and so on.
Good luck getting your money now kids.
They'll just sell a few of their London properties I imagine.
And transfer the money how to Moscow?
I assume their kids would be spending it in London. In Harrods perhaps.
I think we have to get over this fear that Putin will use WMDs. What are we going to do, accept his domination because he might use WMD's? Fuck that. I'd rather die than be Putin's slave. The assertive thing to do would subtly mention that mutually assured destruction applies and carry on with the business of defending our allies. We should be fighting with the Ukrainians.
There's no suggestion Putin and Russia are going to directly invade or attack the armed forces or territory of any NATO country. As someone who lives in London, my life expectancy in a nuclear war can be measured in minutes - I'll draw little comfort in that period of absolute terror knowing I won't be "Putin's slave".
Nuclear conflict means millions of deaths and the degradation of human civilisation - and you worry about being someone's slave. In any case, Putin can barely run a bath let alone conquer Europe.
We need to confine the conflict to Ukraine and work tirelessly for a negotiated ceasefire and withdrawal of Russian forces. Let's be resolute in support of Ukraine and generous in response to the looming humanitarian crisis.
As a wise man once said, jaw-jaw is always better than war-war.
This might be scant consolidation but of Russia's 6,000+ nukes most are held in reserve and only 1,600 are immediately deployable. And then there's the question of whether they will all fire and target properly after all these years.
He doesn't have time to bring all the rest of them online and up to scratch if it gets that far. And he's got to target all of Europe, the UK and the US with that. He wouldn't be able to guarantee universal destruction.
Meanwhile France and the UK (combined) can deploy a third of his number alone, and target them properly, and the US has well over 5,000 of them.
So, if he did use them enough of them in an all-out first strike enough of the West would survive for him to be utterly annihilated*.
It's way too risky and therefore bluster.
(*Btw, total global current nuclear stocks aren't enough to wipe out all of humanity even if evenly targeted on all the major cities at once - I think the estimate is a max of 3 billion dead so 6 billion survivors, and humanity goes on)
Only nuclear powers would likely be targeted in a nuclear war. Noones going to aim at Oslo and Geneva. Us OTOH...
Wait a gosh darn minute, I was told those Tridents based 25 miles away from me were keeping me safe.
You need to be within 15 miles.
Feck, that would mean Iiving in Greenock. Come, friendly nukes..
That is up to them. Brave but they do so at their own risk
I have to say once again I find myself in unlikely agreement. NATO has to be very careful not to cross the line into direct involvement. There's an overwhelming notion around we must "do something" to help Ukraine - perhaps but risking an escalation toward the unthinkable isn't it.
I realise this may be an unpopular view on here tonight but there's a limit to what we can and should do. Help the refugees by all means, offer sanctuary in the UK if we can but we cannot get drawn into this fight - the stakes are simply too high. We can apply economic pressure on Russia (and we should) but we cannot force Putin into a corner where he feels trapped and has no option but to escalate.
We need to be tirelessly pushing for a negotiated ceasefire - we need to use any back channel we have to tell the Russian Government this is a disastrous course of action and try to persuade the Chinese or any one else to press Putin into ending this sooner rather than later.
Ye. Lots of brave keyboard warriors who have no clue about geopolitics.
Reminds me of my first year seminars during my international relations undergrad. Almost everyone was a liberal internationalist. By the third year, pretty much everyone was a realist.
Agreed...how many on here would be prepared to fight street to Street...let us pray for the ukrainian people and hope they don't pay a heavy price for their resistance
This is already turning into a strategic nightmare for Putin, even if he “wins” in Ukraine by changing the regime. He has United the West, fiercely revived NATO, got Germany to reverse decades of pacifism (not in his favour) and made his feared army look feeble. And everyone in the world now hates him, or is, at the very least, horribly embarrassed by him
It is difficult to see how it could have gone worse
Yep. That's the way it looks tonight. And maybe even more of a problem for him, he has utterly fucked the playboy lifestyle of his rich mates and supporters who relied on spending most of the year well away from his shitty regime and living it large in London and Paris and so on.
Good luck getting your money now kids.
They'll just sell a few of their London properties I imagine.
And transfer the money how to Moscow?
I assume their kids would be spending it in London. In Harrods perhaps.
Well, Johnson did say he would increase the supply of housing.
This is already turning into a strategic nightmare for Putin, even if he “wins” in Ukraine by changing the regime. He has United the West, fiercely revived NATO, got Germany to reverse decades of pacifism (not in his favour) and made his feared army look feeble. And everyone in the world now hates him, or is, at the very least, horribly embarrassed by him
It is difficult to see how it could have gone worse
Yep. That's the way it looks tonight. And maybe even more of a problem for him, he has utterly fucked the playboy lifestyle of his rich mates and supporters who relied on spending most of the year well away from his shitty regime and living it large in London and Paris and so on.
Good luck getting your money now kids.
Someone upthread said this ends one of two ways very soon - with a Russian “victory” in Ukraine or Putin overthrown
I wonder if the end point might be both. In desperation Putin will hurl maximum violence at Ukraine - as he did in Chechnya - and “win”. But the slaughter of 1000s in Ukraine in the eyes of the entire world will so revulse everyone he will be deposed very quickly by his own disgusted and embarrassed elite.
A better result for all would be a slug of poison in his stupid tea. Putin is a hyena on ket. He needs to go
(Guardian) Russia has become a “global economic and financial pariah”, a senior US administration official told the Guardian’s diplomatic editor Julian Borger.
Speaking after western allies announced new financial measures against Russia, including the removal of some Russian banks from the Swift global payments network, the official said the measures were designed to target the Kremlin and individuals tied to the Russian government.
“We’ll go after their yachts, their luxury apartments their money and their ability to send their kids to fancy colleges in the west. We will also engage other governments, so as to detect and disrupt the movement of ill-gotten gains, and deny these individuals their ability to hide their assets in jurisdictions across the world,” the official said.
They said that all 10 of Russia’s largest financial institutions had now been subjected to sanctions – “holding nearly 80% of the Russian banking sector’s total assets”.
As a result, the official said: “Russia’s government borrowing costs have more than doubled to almost 17%. The S&P credit rating agency has downgraded Russia to junk status. Within 24 hours of our actions the demand for cash in Russia spiked 58 fold, according to reports, and the Russian government scrambled to deplete its own resources to try and shore up its banks and its currency. In short, Russia has become a global economic and financial pariah.”…
Not happy with the pile-on on PJohnson. Better to counter his points with arguments than just say "troll".
He's not really making sustained or fleshed-out arguments, just giving a very good impression of brief and opportunistic propagandising.
Up to you to flesh-out a response.
That presupposes honest debate is open to be had. It takes two to tango. All very well to extend a hand, but if you've seen that path doesn't yield results at a certain point why would others attempt it?
This is already turning into a strategic nightmare for Putin, even if he “wins” in Ukraine by changing the regime. He has United the West, fiercely revived NATO, got Germany to reverse decades of pacifism (not in his favour) and made his feared army look feeble. And everyone in the world now hates him, or is, at the very least, horribly embarrassed by him
It is difficult to see how it could have gone worse
Yep. That's the way it looks tonight. And maybe even more of a problem for him, he has utterly fucked the playboy lifestyle of his rich mates and supporters who relied on spending most of the year well away from his shitty regime and living it large in London and Paris and so on.
Good luck getting your money now kids.
That London restaurant which charges £10,000 per head must be a bit worried at the moment.
I think we have to get over this fear that Putin will use WMDs. What are we going to do, accept his domination because he might use WMD's? Fuck that. I'd rather die than be Putin's slave. The assertive thing to do would subtly mention that mutually assured destruction applies and carry on with the business of defending our allies. We should be fighting with the Ukrainians.
There's no suggestion Putin and Russia are going to directly invade or attack the armed forces or territory of any NATO country. As someone who lives in London, my life expectancy in a nuclear war can be measured in minutes - I'll draw little comfort in that period of absolute terror knowing I won't be "Putin's slave".
Nuclear conflict means millions of deaths and the degradation of human civilisation - and you worry about being someone's slave. In any case, Putin can barely run a bath let alone conquer Europe.
We need to confine the conflict to Ukraine and work tirelessly for a negotiated ceasefire and withdrawal of Russian forces. Let's be resolute in support of Ukraine and generous in response to the looming humanitarian crisis.
As a wise man once said, jaw-jaw is always better than war-war.
This might be scant consolidation but of Russia's 6,000+ nukes most are held in reserve and only 1,600 are immediately deployable. And then there's the question of whether they will all fire and target properly after all these years.
He doesn't have time to bring all the rest of them online and up to scratch if it gets that far. And he's got to target all of Europe, the UK and the US with that. He wouldn't be able to guarantee universal destruction.
Meanwhile France and the UK (combined) can deploy a third of his number alone, and target them properly, and the US has well over 5,000 of them.
So, if he did use them enough of them in an all-out first strike enough of the West would survive for him to be utterly annihilated*.
It's way too risky and therefore bluster.
(*Btw, total global current nuclear stocks aren't enough to wipe out all of humanity even if evenly targeted on all the major cities at once - I think the estimate is a max of 3 billion dead so 6 billion survivors, and humanity goes on)
Only nuclear powers would likely be targeted in a nuclear war. Noones going to aim at Oslo and Geneva. Us OTOH...
The opposite. Putin knows that if he targets France, the UK or USA with nuclear missiles he risks nuclear weapons being sent to Moscow or St Petersburg by them in return. If London was hit, a UK submarine would send a Trident nuclear missile to Moscow in response.
Any other European nation though except France or us he could invade or even launch a nuclear attack on without risk of direct response from them. Albeit if it was a NATO nation he still might risk response on mutual self defence
I’m sure Churchill beat Attlee for standing up to Hitler. Fat lot of good it did the Tories at the 1945 GE.
Attlee spent five years managing the wartime economy specifically to help beat Hitler. I know Churchill accused him of wanting to refound the Gestapo but I don't think that cut much ice.
No analogy is perfect but there’s a lot of talk here of a “Churchillian Bounce”. If you wanted something like that it would be a post Falklands “Thatcher Bounce”. I don’t see how this impacts Johnson’s overall favourability much at all.
There’s actually something a bit Galtieri about the whole military adventure at the moment.
Trying to step back and actually think about events - the thing I could see Starmer doing differently was the decision to supply weapons to Ukraine.
I don't see that. Practically every leader in Europe and the rest of the first world has chosen to help in this way. I would give Starmer a lot more credit than you seem to be doing. He strikes me as an honourable man.
Yeah you’re right - in the end I probably won’t vote for Starmer, but he’s perfectly capable of being a bog standard U.K. PM. It’s so, so refreshing vs his predecessor.
Great to hear. We'll put that on our bus come the GE.
"Vote Labour. We're bog standard."
Hey I’m traditionally British. I would be very impressed by a Labour campaign of “we’re perfectly average - vote for us and we won’t do a lot but we’re not the other guys and we won’t break anything”.
A sentiment more common than admitted. And nothing wrong with it. I share it slightly. I want radical change but I'm scared of it too.
However something else is common and that is right wingers wanting the choice to be between a red meat Tory Party and a bland managerial Labour.
The only radical belief I’ve ever held was in favour of Brexit. Can’t I now live with a choice of wet one nation Tories or New Labour? That’s my ideal.
Well that's a bit sad. Wet One Nation Tories and New Labour both think the one thing you believe in is a bucket of stupid. So you'd be disenfranchised.
I'm with Biggles. I'd like a choice between a managerial New Labour, but willing to accept the result of the referendum, and a bland managerial Cameronite Tory party, but willing to accept the result of the referendum. Not an option, but one can dream.
This is already turning into a strategic nightmare for Putin, even if he “wins” in Ukraine by changing the regime. He has United the West, fiercely revived NATO, got Germany to reverse decades of pacifism (not in his favour) and made his feared army look feeble. And everyone in the world now hates him, or is, at the very least, horribly embarrassed by him
It is difficult to see how it could have gone worse
Yep. That's the way it looks tonight. And maybe even more of a problem for him, he has utterly fucked the playboy lifestyle of his rich mates and supporters who relied on spending most of the year well away from his shitty regime and living it large in London and Paris and so on.
Good luck getting your money now kids.
That London restaurant which charges £10,000 per head must be a bit worried at the moment.
Sending one hell of a leaflet stop to Beijing and tweaking the menu…
That is up to them. Brave but they do so at their own risk
I have to say once again I find myself in unlikely agreement. NATO has to be very careful not to cross the line into direct involvement. There's an overwhelming notion around we must "do something" to help Ukraine - perhaps but risking an escalation toward the unthinkable isn't it.
I realise this may be an unpopular view on here tonight but there's a limit to what we can and should do. Help the refugees by all means, offer sanctuary in the UK if we can but we cannot get drawn into this fight - the stakes are simply too high. We can apply economic pressure on Russia (and we should) but we cannot force Putin into a corner where he feels trapped and has no option but to escalate.
We need to be tirelessly pushing for a negotiated ceasefire - we need to use any back channel we have to tell the Russian Government this is a disastrous course of action and try to persuade the Chinese or any one else to press Putin into ending this sooner rather than later.
Ye. Lots of brave keyboard warriors who have no clue about geopolitics.
Reminds me of my first year seminars during my international relations undergrad. Almost everyone was a liberal internationalist. By the third year, pretty much everyone was a realist.
Agreed...how many on here would be prepared to fight street to Street...let us pray for the ukrainian people and hope they don't pay a heavy price for their resistance
Why would a Putin shill want to waste their time posting Putin propaganda on PB?
OGH should be buffing his nails on account of the Kremlin taking his blog so seriously.
This is already turning into a strategic nightmare for Putin, even if he “wins” in Ukraine by changing the regime. He has United the West, fiercely revived NATO, got Germany to reverse decades of pacifism (not in his favour) and made his feared army look feeble. And everyone in the world now hates him, or is, at the very least, horribly embarrassed by him
It is difficult to see how it could have gone worse
Yep. That's the way it looks tonight. And maybe even more of a problem for him, he has utterly fucked the playboy lifestyle of his rich mates and supporters who relied on spending most of the year well away from his shitty regime and living it large in London and Paris and so on.
Good luck getting your money now kids.
Someone upthread said this ends one of two ways very soon - with a Russian “victory” in Ukraine or Putin overthrown
I wonder if the end point might be both. In desperation Putin will hurl maximum violence at Ukraine - as he did in Chechnya - and “win”. But the slaughter of 1000s in Ukraine in the eyes of the entire world will so revulse everyone he will be deposed very quickly by his own disgusted and embarrassed elite.
A better result for all would be a slug of poison in his stupid tea. Putin is a hyena on ket. He needs to go
I fear you are right. In a corner he will demand everything is hurled at Ukr. A rain of fire and so on. But will enough people around him finally realise this will not end well and dispatch him?
Not happy with the pile-on on PJohnson. Better to counter his points with arguments than just say "troll".
I did actually 'like' one of PJohnsons posts earlier. I don't agree with (his?) subsequent points that the Ukrainians should give up and submit to the Russians, but it is likely that they could avoid a lot of grief by doing so.
There is a bit of wartime fervour going on this evening. It will pass, I think.
That is up to them. Brave but they do so at their own risk
I have to say once again I find myself in unlikely agreement. NATO has to be very careful not to cross the line into direct involvement. There's an overwhelming notion around we must "do something" to help Ukraine - perhaps but risking an escalation toward the unthinkable isn't it.
I realise this may be an unpopular view on here tonight but there's a limit to what we can and should do. Help the refugees by all means, offer sanctuary in the UK if we can but we cannot get drawn into this fight - the stakes are simply too high. We can apply economic pressure on Russia (and we should) but we cannot force Putin into a corner where he feels trapped and has no option but to escalate.
We need to be tirelessly pushing for a negotiated ceasefire - we need to use any back channel we have to tell the Russian Government this is a disastrous course of action and try to persuade the Chinese or any one else to press Putin into ending this sooner rather than later.
Ye. Lots of brave keyboard warriors who have no clue about geopolitics.
Reminds me of my first year seminars during my international relations undergrad. Almost everyone was a liberal internationalist. By the third year, pretty much everyone was a realist.
Agreed...how many on here would be prepared to fight street to Street...let us pray for the ukrainian people and hope they don't pay a heavy price for their resistance
Your trolling is a tad too obvious Vlad.
If they pay a heavy price its because of their would-be oppressors invading them. But hopefully the resistance does well to either prevent that or to at least inflict a heavy price on those invading.
That is up to them. Brave but they do so at their own risk
I have to say once again I find myself in unlikely agreement. NATO has to be very careful not to cross the line into direct involvement. There's an overwhelming notion around we must "do something" to help Ukraine - perhaps but risking an escalation toward the unthinkable isn't it.
I realise this may be an unpopular view on here tonight but there's a limit to what we can and should do. Help the refugees by all means, offer sanctuary in the UK if we can but we cannot get drawn into this fight - the stakes are simply too high. We can apply economic pressure on Russia (and we should) but we cannot force Putin into a corner where he feels trapped and has no option but to escalate.
We need to be tirelessly pushing for a negotiated ceasefire - we need to use any back channel we have to tell the Russian Government this is a disastrous course of action and try to persuade the Chinese or any one else to press Putin into ending this sooner rather than later.
Ye. Lots of brave keyboard warriors who have no clue about geopolitics.
Reminds me of my first year seminars during my international relations undergrad. Almost everyone was a liberal internationalist. By the third year, pretty much everyone was a realist.
Agreed...how many on here would be prepared to fight street to Street...let us pray for the ukrainian people and hope they don't pay a heavy price for their resistance
Your trolling is a tad too obvious Vlad.
If they pay a heavy price its because of their would-be oppressors invading them. But hopefully the resistance does well to either prevent that or to at least inflict a heavy price on those invading.
That is up to them. Brave but they do so at their own risk
I have to say once again I find myself in unlikely agreement. NATO has to be very careful not to cross the line into direct involvement. There's an overwhelming notion around we must "do something" to help Ukraine - perhaps but risking an escalation toward the unthinkable isn't it.
I realise this may be an unpopular view on here tonight but there's a limit to what we can and should do. Help the refugees by all means, offer sanctuary in the UK if we can but we cannot get drawn into this fight - the stakes are simply too high. We can apply economic pressure on Russia (and we should) but we cannot force Putin into a corner where he feels trapped and has no option but to escalate.
We need to be tirelessly pushing for a negotiated ceasefire - we need to use any back channel we have to tell the Russian Government this is a disastrous course of action and try to persuade the Chinese or any one else to press Putin into ending this sooner rather than later.
Ye. Lots of brave keyboard warriors who have no clue about geopolitics.
Reminds me of my first year seminars during my international relations undergrad. Almost everyone was a liberal internationalist. By the third year, pretty much everyone was a realist.
Agreed...how many on here would be prepared to fight street to Street...let us pray for the ukrainian people and hope they don't pay a heavy price for their resistance
Your trolling is a tad too obvious Vlad.
If they pay a heavy price its because of their would-be oppressors invading them. But hopefully the resistance does well to either prevent that or to at least inflict a heavy price on those invading.
Sure...burnt how would you like your wife and daughters killed in a heroic resistance...easy to be a keyboard warrior from over a thousand miles away
That is up to them. Brave but they do so at their own risk
I have to say once again I find myself in unlikely agreement. NATO has to be very careful not to cross the line into direct involvement. There's an overwhelming notion around we must "do something" to help Ukraine - perhaps but risking an escalation toward the unthinkable isn't it.
I realise this may be an unpopular view on here tonight but there's a limit to what we can and should do. Help the refugees by all means, offer sanctuary in the UK if we can but we cannot get drawn into this fight - the stakes are simply too high. We can apply economic pressure on Russia (and we should) but we cannot force Putin into a corner where he feels trapped and has no option but to escalate.
We need to be tirelessly pushing for a negotiated ceasefire - we need to use any back channel we have to tell the Russian Government this is a disastrous course of action and try to persuade the Chinese or any one else to press Putin into ending this sooner rather than later.
Ye. Lots of brave keyboard warriors who have no clue about geopolitics.
Reminds me of my first year seminars during my international relations undergrad. Almost everyone was a liberal internationalist. By the third year, pretty much everyone was a realist.
Agreed...how many on here would be prepared to fight street to Street...let us pray for the ukrainian people and hope they don't pay a heavy price for their resistance
Why would a Putin shill want to waste their time posting Putin propaganda on PB?
OGH should be buffing his nails on account of the Kremlin taking his blog so seriously.
To be fair, given it’s ability to swiftly aggregate news and deliver elections results at pace, I’d think this blog is read by a lot of intelligence agencies to speed up their homework.
And that’s before we discuss the value of the cricket betting tips.
Not happy with the pile-on on PJohnson. Better to counter his points with arguments than just say "troll".
Their argument seems to be "submit to tyranny and you won't get raped".
I'm not sure precisely what length of essay you think is best suited to "counter" this point, but if the second and final word isn't "off", you're probably wasting your time.
I think we have to get over this fear that Putin will use WMDs. What are we going to do, accept his domination because he might use WMD's? Fuck that. I'd rather die than be Putin's slave. The assertive thing to do would subtly mention that mutually assured destruction applies and carry on with the business of defending our allies. We should be fighting with the Ukrainians.
There's no suggestion Putin and Russia are going to directly invade or attack the armed forces or territory of any NATO country. As someone who lives in London, my life expectancy in a nuclear war can be measured in minutes - I'll draw little comfort in that period of absolute terror knowing I won't be "Putin's slave".
Nuclear conflict means millions of deaths and the degradation of human civilisation - and you worry about being someone's slave. In any case, Putin can barely run a bath let alone conquer Europe.
We need to confine the conflict to Ukraine and work tirelessly for a negotiated ceasefire and withdrawal of Russian forces. Let's be resolute in support of Ukraine and generous in response to the looming humanitarian crisis.
As a wise man once said, jaw-jaw is always better than war-war.
This might be scant consolidation but of Russia's 6,000+ nukes most are held in reserve and only 1,600 are immediately deployable. And then there's the question of whether they will all fire and target properly after all these years.
He doesn't have time to bring all the rest of them online and up to scratch if it gets that far. And he's got to target all of Europe, the UK and the US with that. He wouldn't be able to guarantee universal destruction.
Meanwhile France and the UK (combined) can deploy a third of his number alone, and target them properly, and the US has well over 5,000 of them.
So, if he did use them enough of them in an all-out first strike enough of the West would survive for him to be utterly annihilated*.
It's way too risky and therefore bluster.
(*Btw, total global current nuclear stocks aren't enough to wipe out all of humanity even if evenly targeted on all the major cities at once - I think the estimate is a max of 3 billion dead so 6 billion survivors, and humanity goes on)
Only nuclear powers would likely be targeted in a nuclear war. Noones going to aim at Oslo and Geneva. Us OTOH...
The opposite. Putin knows that if he targets France, the UK or USA with nuclear missiles he risks nuclear weapons being sent to Moscow or St Petersburg by them in return. If London was hit, a UK submarine would send a Trident nuclear missile to Moscow in response.
Any other European nation though except France or us he could invade or even launch a nuclear attack on without risk of direct response from them. Albeit if it was a NATO nation he still might risk response on mutual self defence
Yep. That's the way it looks tonight. And maybe even more of a problem for him, he has utterly fucked the playboy lifestyle of his rich mates and supporters who relied on spending most of the year well away from his shitty regime and living it large in London and Paris and so on.
Good luck getting your money now kids.
I think this is correct. Even if Ukraine falls, even if Russia can subsume the entire country and do so without a hellish resistance, and so achieve all of Putin's military and territorial objectives, the cost is huge. Putin has destroyed the political and economic status quo in Russia. The crooks that run Russia will find life a hell of a lot tougher, and if they find it tougher is it worth them supporting Putin? Putin is trashing their businesses and burning their loot, and for what? Some half-baked plan to restore a Russian Empire that will be isolated from the rest of the world.
That is up to them. Brave but they do so at their own risk
I have to say once again I find myself in unlikely agreement. NATO has to be very careful not to cross the line into direct involvement. There's an overwhelming notion around we must "do something" to help Ukraine - perhaps but risking an escalation toward the unthinkable isn't it.
I realise this may be an unpopular view on here tonight but there's a limit to what we can and should do. Help the refugees by all means, offer sanctuary in the UK if we can but we cannot get drawn into this fight - the stakes are simply too high. We can apply economic pressure on Russia (and we should) but we cannot force Putin into a corner where he feels trapped and has no option but to escalate.
We need to be tirelessly pushing for a negotiated ceasefire - we need to use any back channel we have to tell the Russian Government this is a disastrous course of action and try to persuade the Chinese or any one else to press Putin into ending this sooner rather than later.
Ye. Lots of brave keyboard warriors who have no clue about geopolitics.
Reminds me of my first year seminars during my international relations undergrad. Almost everyone was a liberal internationalist. By the third year, pretty much everyone was a realist.
Agreed...how many on here would be prepared to fight street to Street...let us pray for the ukrainian people and hope they don't pay a heavy price for their resistance
Your trolling is a tad too obvious Vlad.
If they pay a heavy price its because of their would-be oppressors invading them. But hopefully the resistance does well to either prevent that or to at least inflict a heavy price on those invading.
That is up to them. Brave but they do so at their own risk
I have to say once again I find myself in unlikely agreement. NATO has to be very careful not to cross the line into direct involvement. There's an overwhelming notion around we must "do something" to help Ukraine - perhaps but risking an escalation toward the unthinkable isn't it.
I realise this may be an unpopular view on here tonight but there's a limit to what we can and should do. Help the refugees by all means, offer sanctuary in the UK if we can but we cannot get drawn into this fight - the stakes are simply too high. We can apply economic pressure on Russia (and we should) but we cannot force Putin into a corner where he feels trapped and has no option but to escalate.
We need to be tirelessly pushing for a negotiated ceasefire - we need to use any back channel we have to tell the Russian Government this is a disastrous course of action and try to persuade the Chinese or any one else to press Putin into ending this sooner rather than later.
Ye. Lots of brave keyboard warriors who have no clue about geopolitics.
Reminds me of my first year seminars during my international relations undergrad. Almost everyone was a liberal internationalist. By the third year, pretty much everyone was a realist.
Agreed...how many on here would be prepared to fight street to Street...let us pray for the ukrainian people and hope they don't pay a heavy price for their resistance
Your trolling is a tad too obvious Vlad.
If they pay a heavy price its because of their would-be oppressors invading them. But hopefully the resistance does well to either prevent that or to at least inflict a heavy price on those invading.
That is up to them. Brave but they do so at their own risk
I have to say once again I find myself in unlikely agreement. NATO has to be very careful not to cross the line into direct involvement. There's an overwhelming notion around we must "do something" to help Ukraine - perhaps but risking an escalation toward the unthinkable isn't it.
I realise this may be an unpopular view on here tonight but there's a limit to what we can and should do. Help the refugees by all means, offer sanctuary in the UK if we can but we cannot get drawn into this fight - the stakes are simply too high. We can apply economic pressure on Russia (and we should) but we cannot force Putin into a corner where he feels trapped and has no option but to escalate.
We need to be tirelessly pushing for a negotiated ceasefire - we need to use any back channel we have to tell the Russian Government this is a disastrous course of action and try to persuade the Chinese or any one else to press Putin into ending this sooner rather than later.
Ye. Lots of brave keyboard warriors who have no clue about geopolitics.
Reminds me of my first year seminars during my international relations undergrad. Almost everyone was a liberal internationalist. By the third year, pretty much everyone was a realist.
Agreed...how many on here would be prepared to fight street to Street...let us pray for the ukrainian people and hope they don't pay a heavy price for their resistance
Your trolling is a tad too obvious Vlad.
If they pay a heavy price its because of their would-be oppressors invading them. But hopefully the resistance does well to either prevent that or to at least inflict a heavy price on those invading.
Sure...burnt how would you like your wife and daughters killed in a heroic resistance...easy to be a keyboard warrior from over a thousand miles away
Easy to be a snivelling shit when you're the one invading another country instead of being invaded too Vlad.
The material is reworked, effects from Instagram have been added, and his statements are cut off old statements that someone pasted on and that do not even match the movement of the mouth. Original video with Kadyrov, from which the frame and his lips are taken here: https://youtu.be/rwyfOOTJNpE?t=4
yes a deep fake
Is that the third or fourth fake posted here just today? It would be nice if people waited to see if things are genuine before doing the cut ‘n paste
In fairness, it's hard for the lay person to tell if they're fake - which is the whole idea of course.
Despite all the positive reports of Ukrainian resistance and Russian ineptitude, I am steeling myself for the prospect that Ukraine falls within the next week.
I do so much hope I am wrong.
It's only sensible. Even if the positive reports of the first few days are true, no one seems to dispute the facts on paper about the martial resources potentially at play, so despite being true things could yet go even worse.
It's already gone far better than I'd feared. Every day Ukraine holds out, every loss Ukraine inflicts on Russia, makes Russia's next step more difficult.
Three days ago I was expecting an easy Russian win and a new iron curtain as a best case scenario. Now, we are looking at a weakened Russia- even if it does conquer Ukraine it will have expended considerable treasure and political capital to do so and will have to expend the same again to hold it. And I am also inspired by the bravery of the Ukrainians; and of the Russian protestors. Truly we have seen some heroism these last few days. And that is cause for celebration if nothing else. In cricketing terms, this is an astonishing tenth wicket stand after a top order collapse in the first innings - the west might now be going into the second innings in a slightly less disadvantageous position than we had feared and the prospect of ultimate victory is not as remote as it once was.
Adam Tooze @adam_tooze · 1h We are in truly dangerous spiral: Brave Ukrainian resistance frustrates Russian attack -> Kiev refuses humiliating negotiations. Russia about to ramp up destructiveness of attack NATO members rushing weapons to Ukraine EU/US announce major sanctions. What is Russia’s next move?
The material is reworked, effects from Instagram have been added, and his statements are cut off old statements that someone pasted on and that do not even match the movement of the mouth. Original video with Kadyrov, from which the frame and his lips are taken here: https://youtu.be/rwyfOOTJNpE?t=4
yes a deep fake
Is that the third or fourth fake posted here just today? It would be nice if people waited to see if things are genuine before doing the cut ‘n paste
In fairness, it's hard for the lay person to tell if they're fake - which is the whole idea of course.
Despite all the positive reports of Ukrainian resistance and Russian ineptitude, I am steeling myself for the prospect that Ukraine falls within the next week.
I do so much hope I am wrong.
It's only sensible. Even if the positive reports of the first few days are true, no one seems to dispute the facts on paper about the martial resources potentially at play, so despite being true things could yet go even worse.
It's already gone far better than I'd feared. Every day Ukraine holds out, every loss Ukraine inflicts on Russia, makes Russia's next step more difficult.
Three days ago I was expecting an easy Russian win and a new iron curtain as a best case scenario. Now, we are looking at a weakened Russia- even if it does conquer Ukraine it will have expended considerable treasure and political capital to do so and will have to expend the same again to hold it. And I am also inspired by the bravery of the Ukrainians; and of the Russian protestors. Truly we have seen some heroism these last few days. And that is cause for celebration if nothing else. In cricketing terms, this is an astonishing tenth wicket stand after a top order collapse in the first innings - the west might now be going into the second innings in a slightly less disadvantageous position than we had feared and the prospect of ultimate victory is not as remote as it once was.
I like that analogy. Ukraine has saved us the follow on.
Not happy with the pile-on on PJohnson. Better to counter his points with arguments than just say "troll".
I did actually 'like' one of PJohnsons posts earlier. I don't agree with (his?) subsequent points that the Ukrainians should give up and submit to the Russians, but it is likely that they could avoid a lot of grief by doing so.
There is a bit of wartime fervour going on this evening. It will pass, I think.
Not from me. I don't want to see NATO troops on the ground in Ukraine, but I'm also not particularly impressed by transparent propaganda, either.
That is up to them. Brave but they do so at their own risk
I have to say once again I find myself in unlikely agreement. NATO has to be very careful not to cross the line into direct involvement. There's an overwhelming notion around we must "do something" to help Ukraine - perhaps but risking an escalation toward the unthinkable isn't it.
I realise this may be an unpopular view on here tonight but there's a limit to what we can and should do. Help the refugees by all means, offer sanctuary in the UK if we can but we cannot get drawn into this fight - the stakes are simply too high. We can apply economic pressure on Russia (and we should) but we cannot force Putin into a corner where he feels trapped and has no option but to escalate.
We need to be tirelessly pushing for a negotiated ceasefire - we need to use any back channel we have to tell the Russian Government this is a disastrous course of action and try to persuade the Chinese or any one else to press Putin into ending this sooner rather than later.
Ye. Lots of brave keyboard warriors who have no clue about geopolitics.
Reminds me of my first year seminars during my international relations undergrad. Almost everyone was a liberal internationalist. By the third year, pretty much everyone was a realist.
Agreed...how many on here would be prepared to fight street to Street...let us pray for the ukrainian people and hope they don't pay a heavy price for their resistance
Your trolling is a tad too obvious Vlad.
If they pay a heavy price its because of their would-be oppressors invading them. But hopefully the resistance does well to either prevent that or to at least inflict a heavy price on those invading.
That is up to them. Brave but they do so at their own risk
I have to say once again I find myself in unlikely agreement. NATO has to be very careful not to cross the line into direct involvement. There's an overwhelming notion around we must "do something" to help Ukraine - perhaps but risking an escalation toward the unthinkable isn't it.
I realise this may be an unpopular view on here tonight but there's a limit to what we can and should do. Help the refugees by all means, offer sanctuary in the UK if we can but we cannot get drawn into this fight - the stakes are simply too high. We can apply economic pressure on Russia (and we should) but we cannot force Putin into a corner where he feels trapped and has no option but to escalate.
We need to be tirelessly pushing for a negotiated ceasefire - we need to use any back channel we have to tell the Russian Government this is a disastrous course of action and try to persuade the Chinese or any one else to press Putin into ending this sooner rather than later.
Ye. Lots of brave keyboard warriors who have no clue about geopolitics.
Reminds me of my first year seminars during my international relations undergrad. Almost everyone was a liberal internationalist. By the third year, pretty much everyone was a realist.
Agreed...how many on here would be prepared to fight street to Street...let us pray for the ukrainian people and hope they don't pay a heavy price for their resistance
Your trolling is a tad too obvious Vlad.
If they pay a heavy price its because of their would-be oppressors invading them. But hopefully the resistance does well to either prevent that or to at least inflict a heavy price on those invading.
That is up to them. Brave but they do so at their own risk
I have to say once again I find myself in unlikely agreement. NATO has to be very careful not to cross the line into direct involvement. There's an overwhelming notion around we must "do something" to help Ukraine - perhaps but risking an escalation toward the unthinkable isn't it.
I realise this may be an unpopular view on here tonight but there's a limit to what we can and should do. Help the refugees by all means, offer sanctuary in the UK if we can but we cannot get drawn into this fight - the stakes are simply too high. We can apply economic pressure on Russia (and we should) but we cannot force Putin into a corner where he feels trapped and has no option but to escalate.
We need to be tirelessly pushing for a negotiated ceasefire - we need to use any back channel we have to tell the Russian Government this is a disastrous course of action and try to persuade the Chinese or any one else to press Putin into ending this sooner rather than later.
Ye. Lots of brave keyboard warriors who have no clue about geopolitics.
Reminds me of my first year seminars during my international relations undergrad. Almost everyone was a liberal internationalist. By the third year, pretty much everyone was a realist.
Agreed...how many on here would be prepared to fight street to Street...let us pray for the ukrainian people and hope they don't pay a heavy price for their resistance
Your trolling is a tad too obvious Vlad.
If they pay a heavy price its because of their would-be oppressors invading them. But hopefully the resistance does well to either prevent that or to at least inflict a heavy price on those invading.
Sure...burnt how would you like your wife and daughters killed in a heroic resistance...easy to be a keyboard warrior from over a thousand miles away
I’m 58. My life is nearly done. I’ve had a ton of fun
If invading fascist Russia was trying to destroy my beloved London, and my beloved Britain & British democracy, I would absolutely send my womenfolk to safety (if I could) and take up an AK47 and lie down behind sandbags and shoot any Russian fucker walking down Camden High Street
Why not? What a noble way to go. And we might even win. It’s the younger men who are making the greater sacrifice
Donald H Taylor @DonaldHTaylor · 1h The coming days scare me. Putin, fearing humiliation in Ukraine, will demand advances. The onslaught could be Aleppo/Grozny intense, accelerated by a wish to beat the arrival of western aid. It will be indiscriminately savage, unless Russia really lacks materiel (as some believe)
Adam Tooze @adam_tooze · 1h We are in truly dangerous spiral: Brave Ukrainian resistance frustrates Russian attack -> Kiev refuses humiliating negotiations. Russia about to ramp up destructiveness of attack NATO members rushing weapons to Ukraine EU/US announce major sanctions. What is Russia’s next move?
Hopefully Putin has a "heart attack", and some less crazy person can get Russia out of the mess Putin started.
Adam Tooze @adam_tooze · 1h We are in truly dangerous spiral: Brave Ukrainian resistance frustrates Russian attack -> Kiev refuses humiliating negotiations. Russia about to ramp up destructiveness of attack NATO members rushing weapons to Ukraine EU/US announce major sanctions. What is Russia’s next move?
This is the worry ignored by many on here...this situation could spiral in unpredictable ways to the detriment of the west....
That is up to them. Brave but they do so at their own risk
I have to say once again I find myself in unlikely agreement. NATO has to be very careful not to cross the line into direct involvement. There's an overwhelming notion around we must "do something" to help Ukraine - perhaps but risking an escalation toward the unthinkable isn't it.
I realise this may be an unpopular view on here tonight but there's a limit to what we can and should do. Help the refugees by all means, offer sanctuary in the UK if we can but we cannot get drawn into this fight - the stakes are simply too high. We can apply economic pressure on Russia (and we should) but we cannot force Putin into a corner where he feels trapped and has no option but to escalate.
We need to be tirelessly pushing for a negotiated ceasefire - we need to use any back channel we have to tell the Russian Government this is a disastrous course of action and try to persuade the Chinese or any one else to press Putin into ending this sooner rather than later.
Ye. Lots of brave keyboard warriors who have no clue about geopolitics.
Reminds me of my first year seminars during my international relations undergrad. Almost everyone was a liberal internationalist. By the third year, pretty much everyone was a realist.
Agreed...how many on here would be prepared to fight street to Street...let us pray for the ukrainian people and hope they don't pay a heavy price for their resistance
Your trolling is a tad too obvious Vlad.
If they pay a heavy price its because of their would-be oppressors invading them. But hopefully the resistance does well to either prevent that or to at least inflict a heavy price on those invading.
That is up to them. Brave but they do so at their own risk
I have to say once again I find myself in unlikely agreement. NATO has to be very careful not to cross the line into direct involvement. There's an overwhelming notion around we must "do something" to help Ukraine - perhaps but risking an escalation toward the unthinkable isn't it.
I realise this may be an unpopular view on here tonight but there's a limit to what we can and should do. Help the refugees by all means, offer sanctuary in the UK if we can but we cannot get drawn into this fight - the stakes are simply too high. We can apply economic pressure on Russia (and we should) but we cannot force Putin into a corner where he feels trapped and has no option but to escalate.
We need to be tirelessly pushing for a negotiated ceasefire - we need to use any back channel we have to tell the Russian Government this is a disastrous course of action and try to persuade the Chinese or any one else to press Putin into ending this sooner rather than later.
Ye. Lots of brave keyboard warriors who have no clue about geopolitics.
Reminds me of my first year seminars during my international relations undergrad. Almost everyone was a liberal internationalist. By the third year, pretty much everyone was a realist.
Agreed...how many on here would be prepared to fight street to Street...let us pray for the ukrainian people and hope they don't pay a heavy price for their resistance
Your trolling is a tad too obvious Vlad.
If they pay a heavy price its because of their would-be oppressors invading them. But hopefully the resistance does well to either prevent that or to at least inflict a heavy price on those invading.
That is up to them. Brave but they do so at their own risk
I have to say once again I find myself in unlikely agreement. NATO has to be very careful not to cross the line into direct involvement. There's an overwhelming notion around we must "do something" to help Ukraine - perhaps but risking an escalation toward the unthinkable isn't it.
I realise this may be an unpopular view on here tonight but there's a limit to what we can and should do. Help the refugees by all means, offer sanctuary in the UK if we can but we cannot get drawn into this fight - the stakes are simply too high. We can apply economic pressure on Russia (and we should) but we cannot force Putin into a corner where he feels trapped and has no option but to escalate.
We need to be tirelessly pushing for a negotiated ceasefire - we need to use any back channel we have to tell the Russian Government this is a disastrous course of action and try to persuade the Chinese or any one else to press Putin into ending this sooner rather than later.
Ye. Lots of brave keyboard warriors who have no clue about geopolitics.
Reminds me of my first year seminars during my international relations undergrad. Almost everyone was a liberal internationalist. By the third year, pretty much everyone was a realist.
Agreed...how many on here would be prepared to fight street to Street...let us pray for the ukrainian people and hope they don't pay a heavy price for their resistance
Your trolling is a tad too obvious Vlad.
If they pay a heavy price its because of their would-be oppressors invading them. But hopefully the resistance does well to either prevent that or to at least inflict a heavy price on those invading.
Sure...burnt how would you like your wife and daughters killed in a heroic resistance...easy to be a keyboard warrior from over a thousand miles away
We wouldn’t - anymore than we would like our country invaded by brutal and out of control dictator. But given the latter, I’d like to think we’d refuse to surrender our hopes for a better future, just as has Ukraine.
How would you like to be governed by an authoritarian sociopath, in a country which has become an international pariah in the space of a few days ?
Adam Tooze @adam_tooze · 1h We are in truly dangerous spiral: Brave Ukrainian resistance frustrates Russian attack -> Kiev refuses humiliating negotiations. Russia about to ramp up destructiveness of attack NATO members rushing weapons to Ukraine EU/US announce major sanctions. What is Russia’s next move?
This is the worry ignored by many on here...this situation could spiral in unpredictable ways to the detriment of the west....
That is up to them. Brave but they do so at their own risk
I have to say once again I find myself in unlikely agreement. NATO has to be very careful not to cross the line into direct involvement. There's an overwhelming notion around we must "do something" to help Ukraine - perhaps but risking an escalation toward the unthinkable isn't it.
I realise this may be an unpopular view on here tonight but there's a limit to what we can and should do. Help the refugees by all means, offer sanctuary in the UK if we can but we cannot get drawn into this fight - the stakes are simply too high. We can apply economic pressure on Russia (and we should) but we cannot force Putin into a corner where he feels trapped and has no option but to escalate.
We need to be tirelessly pushing for a negotiated ceasefire - we need to use any back channel we have to tell the Russian Government this is a disastrous course of action and try to persuade the Chinese or any one else to press Putin into ending this sooner rather than later.
Ye. Lots of brave keyboard warriors who have no clue about geopolitics.
Reminds me of my first year seminars during my international relations undergrad. Almost everyone was a liberal internationalist. By the third year, pretty much everyone was a realist.
Agreed...how many on here would be prepared to fight street to Street...let us pray for the ukrainian people and hope they don't pay a heavy price for their resistance
Why would a Putin shill want to waste their time posting Putin propaganda on PB?
OGH should be buffing his nails on account of the Kremlin taking his blog so seriously.
To be fair, given it’s ability to swiftly aggregate news and deliver elections results at pace, I’d think this blog is read by a lot of intelligence agencies to speed up their homework.
And that’s before we discuss the value of the cricket betting tips.
I'm pretty sure chefs read it too, to perfect the use of pineapple on pizza.
That is up to them. Brave but they do so at their own risk
I have to say once again I find myself in unlikely agreement. NATO has to be very careful not to cross the line into direct involvement. There's an overwhelming notion around we must "do something" to help Ukraine - perhaps but risking an escalation toward the unthinkable isn't it.
I realise this may be an unpopular view on here tonight but there's a limit to what we can and should do. Help the refugees by all means, offer sanctuary in the UK if we can but we cannot get drawn into this fight - the stakes are simply too high. We can apply economic pressure on Russia (and we should) but we cannot force Putin into a corner where he feels trapped and has no option but to escalate.
We need to be tirelessly pushing for a negotiated ceasefire - we need to use any back channel we have to tell the Russian Government this is a disastrous course of action and try to persuade the Chinese or any one else to press Putin into ending this sooner rather than later.
Ye. Lots of brave keyboard warriors who have no clue about geopolitics.
Reminds me of my first year seminars during my international relations undergrad. Almost everyone was a liberal internationalist. By the third year, pretty much everyone was a realist.
Agreed...how many on here would be prepared to fight street to Street...let us pray for the ukrainian people and hope they don't pay a heavy price for their resistance
Why would a Putin shill want to waste their time posting Putin propaganda on PB?
OGH should be buffing his nails on account of the Kremlin taking his blog so seriously.
To be fair, given it’s ability to swiftly aggregate news and deliver elections results at pace, I’d think this blog is read by a lot of intelligence agencies to speed up their homework.
And that’s before we discuss the value of the cricket betting tips.
Journalist Lev Shlosberg, who broke the story in 2014 about the first Russian soldiers being buried back home after dying in the Donbas, says Putin won’t make the same mistake this time. Hence the army’s mobile crematoriums.
That is up to them. Brave but they do so at their own risk
I have to say once again I find myself in unlikely agreement. NATO has to be very careful not to cross the line into direct involvement. There's an overwhelming notion around we must "do something" to help Ukraine - perhaps but risking an escalation toward the unthinkable isn't it.
I realise this may be an unpopular view on here tonight but there's a limit to what we can and should do. Help the refugees by all means, offer sanctuary in the UK if we can but we cannot get drawn into this fight - the stakes are simply too high. We can apply economic pressure on Russia (and we should) but we cannot force Putin into a corner where he feels trapped and has no option but to escalate.
We need to be tirelessly pushing for a negotiated ceasefire - we need to use any back channel we have to tell the Russian Government this is a disastrous course of action and try to persuade the Chinese or any one else to press Putin into ending this sooner rather than later.
Ye. Lots of brave keyboard warriors who have no clue about geopolitics.
Reminds me of my first year seminars during my international relations undergrad. Almost everyone was a liberal internationalist. By the third year, pretty much everyone was a realist.
Agreed...how many on here would be prepared to fight street to Street...let us pray for the ukrainian people and hope they don't pay a heavy price for their resistance
Your trolling is a tad too obvious Vlad.
If they pay a heavy price its because of their would-be oppressors invading them. But hopefully the resistance does well to either prevent that or to at least inflict a heavy price on those invading.
That is up to them. Brave but they do so at their own risk
I have to say once again I find myself in unlikely agreement. NATO has to be very careful not to cross the line into direct involvement. There's an overwhelming notion around we must "do something" to help Ukraine - perhaps but risking an escalation toward the unthinkable isn't it.
I realise this may be an unpopular view on here tonight but there's a limit to what we can and should do. Help the refugees by all means, offer sanctuary in the UK if we can but we cannot get drawn into this fight - the stakes are simply too high. We can apply economic pressure on Russia (and we should) but we cannot force Putin into a corner where he feels trapped and has no option but to escalate.
We need to be tirelessly pushing for a negotiated ceasefire - we need to use any back channel we have to tell the Russian Government this is a disastrous course of action and try to persuade the Chinese or any one else to press Putin into ending this sooner rather than later.
Ye. Lots of brave keyboard warriors who have no clue about geopolitics.
Reminds me of my first year seminars during my international relations undergrad. Almost everyone was a liberal internationalist. By the third year, pretty much everyone was a realist.
Agreed...how many on here would be prepared to fight street to Street...let us pray for the ukrainian people and hope they don't pay a heavy price for their resistance
Your trolling is a tad too obvious Vlad.
If they pay a heavy price its because of their would-be oppressors invading them. But hopefully the resistance does well to either prevent that or to at least inflict a heavy price on those invading.
That is up to them. Brave but they do so at their own risk
I have to say once again I find myself in unlikely agreement. NATO has to be very careful not to cross the line into direct involvement. There's an overwhelming notion around we must "do something" to help Ukraine - perhaps but risking an escalation toward the unthinkable isn't it.
I realise this may be an unpopular view on here tonight but there's a limit to what we can and should do. Help the refugees by all means, offer sanctuary in the UK if we can but we cannot get drawn into this fight - the stakes are simply too high. We can apply economic pressure on Russia (and we should) but we cannot force Putin into a corner where he feels trapped and has no option but to escalate.
We need to be tirelessly pushing for a negotiated ceasefire - we need to use any back channel we have to tell the Russian Government this is a disastrous course of action and try to persuade the Chinese or any one else to press Putin into ending this sooner rather than later.
Ye. Lots of brave keyboard warriors who have no clue about geopolitics.
Reminds me of my first year seminars during my international relations undergrad. Almost everyone was a liberal internationalist. By the third year, pretty much everyone was a realist.
Agreed...how many on here would be prepared to fight street to Street...let us pray for the ukrainian people and hope they don't pay a heavy price for their resistance
Your trolling is a tad too obvious Vlad.
If they pay a heavy price its because of their would-be oppressors invading them. But hopefully the resistance does well to either prevent that or to at least inflict a heavy price on those invading.
Sure...burnt how would you like your wife and daughters killed in a heroic resistance...easy to be a keyboard warrior from over a thousand miles away
That is up to them. Brave but they do so at their own risk
I have to say once again I find myself in unlikely agreement. NATO has to be very careful not to cross the line into direct involvement. There's an overwhelming notion around we must "do something" to help Ukraine - perhaps but risking an escalation toward the unthinkable isn't it.
I realise this may be an unpopular view on here tonight but there's a limit to what we can and should do. Help the refugees by all means, offer sanctuary in the UK if we can but we cannot get drawn into this fight - the stakes are simply too high. We can apply economic pressure on Russia (and we should) but we cannot force Putin into a corner where he feels trapped and has no option but to escalate.
We need to be tirelessly pushing for a negotiated ceasefire - we need to use any back channel we have to tell the Russian Government this is a disastrous course of action and try to persuade the Chinese or any one else to press Putin into ending this sooner rather than later.
Ye. Lots of brave keyboard warriors who have no clue about geopolitics.
Reminds me of my first year seminars during my international relations undergrad. Almost everyone was a liberal internationalist. By the third year, pretty much everyone was a realist.
Agreed...how many on here would be prepared to fight street to Street...let us pray for the ukrainian people and hope they don't pay a heavy price for their resistance
Why would a Putin shill want to waste their time posting Putin propaganda on PB?
OGH should be buffing his nails on account of the Kremlin taking his blog so seriously.
To be fair, given it’s ability to swiftly aggregate news and deliver elections results at pace, I’d think this blog is read by a lot of intelligence agencies to speed up their homework.
And that’s before we discuss the value of the cricket betting tips.
Yes, we've had Russian sockpuppets in the past.
There was a run of antivaxxers with very suspiciously written English last year too, who always seemed like they were probably Russian.
That is up to them. Brave but they do so at their own risk
I have to say once again I find myself in unlikely agreement. NATO has to be very careful not to cross the line into direct involvement. There's an overwhelming notion around we must "do something" to help Ukraine - perhaps but risking an escalation toward the unthinkable isn't it.
I realise this may be an unpopular view on here tonight but there's a limit to what we can and should do. Help the refugees by all means, offer sanctuary in the UK if we can but we cannot get drawn into this fight - the stakes are simply too high. We can apply economic pressure on Russia (and we should) but we cannot force Putin into a corner where he feels trapped and has no option but to escalate.
We need to be tirelessly pushing for a negotiated ceasefire - we need to use any back channel we have to tell the Russian Government this is a disastrous course of action and try to persuade the Chinese or any one else to press Putin into ending this sooner rather than later.
Ye. Lots of brave keyboard warriors who have no clue about geopolitics.
Reminds me of my first year seminars during my international relations undergrad. Almost everyone was a liberal internationalist. By the third year, pretty much everyone was a realist.
Agreed...how many on here would be prepared to fight street to Street...let us pray for the ukrainian people and hope they don't pay a heavy price for their resistance
Why would a Putin shill want to waste their time posting Putin propaganda on PB?
OGH should be buffing his nails on account of the Kremlin taking his blog so seriously.
To be fair, given it’s ability to swiftly aggregate news and deliver elections results at pace, I’d think this blog is read by a lot of intelligence agencies to speed up their homework.
And that’s before we discuss the value of the cricket betting tips.
I'm pretty sure chefs read it too, to perfect the use of pineapple on pizza.
It’s the music criticism that drew me in. Without the advice of this site I might have believed that Radiohead had some talent.
Adam Tooze @adam_tooze · 1h We are in truly dangerous spiral: Brave Ukrainian resistance frustrates Russian attack -> Kiev refuses humiliating negotiations. Russia about to ramp up destructiveness of attack NATO members rushing weapons to Ukraine EU/US announce major sanctions. What is Russia’s next move?
This is the worry ignored by many on here...this situation could spiral in unpredictable ways to the detriment of the west....
The bear has to be confronted at some point. If not now, when?
That is up to them. Brave but they do so at their own risk
I have to say once again I find myself in unlikely agreement. NATO has to be very careful not to cross the line into direct involvement. There's an overwhelming notion around we must "do something" to help Ukraine - perhaps but risking an escalation toward the unthinkable isn't it.
I realise this may be an unpopular view on here tonight but there's a limit to what we can and should do. Help the refugees by all means, offer sanctuary in the UK if we can but we cannot get drawn into this fight - the stakes are simply too high. We can apply economic pressure on Russia (and we should) but we cannot force Putin into a corner where he feels trapped and has no option but to escalate.
We need to be tirelessly pushing for a negotiated ceasefire - we need to use any back channel we have to tell the Russian Government this is a disastrous course of action and try to persuade the Chinese or any one else to press Putin into ending this sooner rather than later.
Ye. Lots of brave keyboard warriors who have no clue about geopolitics.
Reminds me of my first year seminars during my international relations undergrad. Almost everyone was a liberal internationalist. By the third year, pretty much everyone was a realist.
Agreed...how many on here would be prepared to fight street to Street...let us pray for the ukrainian people and hope they don't pay a heavy price for their resistance
Why would a Putin shill want to waste their time posting Putin propaganda on PB?
OGH should be buffing his nails on account of the Kremlin taking his blog so seriously.
To be fair, given it’s ability to swiftly aggregate news and deliver elections results at pace, I’d think this blog is read by a lot of intelligence agencies to speed up their homework.
And that’s before we discuss the value of the cricket betting tips.
It is certainly up on the screens of many press agencies and political centres more or less permanently.
That's good enough reason to shoo away pesky little farts like P Johnson whenever they show up. They spoil the brand - and it is a very good brand.
That is up to them. Brave but they do so at their own risk
I have to say once again I find myself in unlikely agreement. NATO has to be very careful not to cross the line into direct involvement. There's an overwhelming notion around we must "do something" to help Ukraine - perhaps but risking an escalation toward the unthinkable isn't it.
I realise this may be an unpopular view on here tonight but there's a limit to what we can and should do. Help the refugees by all means, offer sanctuary in the UK if we can but we cannot get drawn into this fight - the stakes are simply too high. We can apply economic pressure on Russia (and we should) but we cannot force Putin into a corner where he feels trapped and has no option but to escalate.
We need to be tirelessly pushing for a negotiated ceasefire - we need to use any back channel we have to tell the Russian Government this is a disastrous course of action and try to persuade the Chinese or any one else to press Putin into ending this sooner rather than later.
Ye. Lots of brave keyboard warriors who have no clue about geopolitics.
Reminds me of my first year seminars during my international relations undergrad. Almost everyone was a liberal internationalist. By the third year, pretty much everyone was a realist.
Agreed...how many on here would be prepared to fight street to Street...let us pray for the ukrainian people and hope they don't pay a heavy price for their resistance
Why would a Putin shill want to waste their time posting Putin propaganda on PB?
OGH should be buffing his nails on account of the Kremlin taking his blog so seriously.
To be fair, given it’s ability to swiftly aggregate news and deliver elections results at pace, I’d think this blog is read by a lot of intelligence agencies to speed up their homework.
And that’s before we discuss the value of the cricket betting tips.
Yes, we've had Russian sockpuppets in the past.
There was a run of antivaxxers with very suspiciously written English last year too, who always seemed like they were probably Russian.
Given that Russia has apparently suspected Twitter, and severely limited Facebook, perhaps PB is now their only source of news and commentary….
White House: The Central Bank of Russia has $630 billion in gold and foreign exchange reserves that can be sold to support the ruble, and the purpose of the sanctions is to make it impossible to exchange this currency to rubles by blocking transactions with Western banks
White House: The US expects that, having lost the support of the Russian Central Bank due to the sanctions imposed on it, the ruble will fall into free fall
Adam Tooze @adam_tooze · 1h We are in truly dangerous spiral: Brave Ukrainian resistance frustrates Russian attack -> Kiev refuses humiliating negotiations. Russia about to ramp up destructiveness of attack NATO members rushing weapons to Ukraine EU/US announce major sanctions. What is Russia’s next move?
This is the worry ignored by many on here...this situation could spiral in unpredictable ways to the detriment of the west....
Adam Tooze @adam_tooze · 1h We are in truly dangerous spiral: Brave Ukrainian resistance frustrates Russian attack -> Kiev refuses humiliating negotiations. Russia about to ramp up destructiveness of attack NATO members rushing weapons to Ukraine EU/US announce major sanctions. What is Russia’s next move?
This is the worry ignored by many on here...this situation could spiral in unpredictable ways to the detriment of the west....
..and to your own side.
Does anyone seriously think that this couldn't spiral unpredictably (apart from Mad Vlad of course)?
This is the most dangerous time most of us have ever lived through. That was clear from the moment Vlad ordered his conscripts in.
That is up to them. Brave but they do so at their own risk
I have to say once again I find myself in unlikely agreement. NATO has to be very careful not to cross the line into direct involvement. There's an overwhelming notion around we must "do something" to help Ukraine - perhaps but risking an escalation toward the unthinkable isn't it.
I realise this may be an unpopular view on here tonight but there's a limit to what we can and should do. Help the refugees by all means, offer sanctuary in the UK if we can but we cannot get drawn into this fight - the stakes are simply too high. We can apply economic pressure on Russia (and we should) but we cannot force Putin into a corner where he feels trapped and has no option but to escalate.
We need to be tirelessly pushing for a negotiated ceasefire - we need to use any back channel we have to tell the Russian Government this is a disastrous course of action and try to persuade the Chinese or any one else to press Putin into ending this sooner rather than later.
Ye. Lots of brave keyboard warriors who have no clue about geopolitics.
Reminds me of my first year seminars during my international relations undergrad. Almost everyone was a liberal internationalist. By the third year, pretty much everyone was a realist.
Agreed...how many on here would be prepared to fight street to Street...let us pray for the ukrainian people and hope they don't pay a heavy price for their resistance
Why would a Putin shill want to waste their time posting Putin propaganda on PB?
OGH should be buffing his nails on account of the Kremlin taking his blog so seriously.
To be fair, given it’s ability to swiftly aggregate news and deliver elections results at pace, I’d think this blog is read by a lot of intelligence agencies to speed up their homework.
And that’s before we discuss the value of the cricket betting tips.
Yes, we've had Russian sockpuppets in the past.
There was a run of antivaxxers with very suspiciously written English last year too, who always seemed like they were probably Russian.
Given that Russia has apparently suspected Twitter, and severely limited Facebook, perhaps PB is now their only source of news and commentary….
God help them.
Russia is funding its war effort by correctly predicting election results in obscure US districts. You heard it here first. As ever.
Adam Tooze @adam_tooze · 1h We are in truly dangerous spiral: Brave Ukrainian resistance frustrates Russian attack -> Kiev refuses humiliating negotiations. Russia about to ramp up destructiveness of attack NATO members rushing weapons to Ukraine EU/US announce major sanctions. What is Russia’s next move?
This is the worry ignored by many on here...this situation could spiral in unpredictable ways to the detriment of the west....
..and to your own side.
Does anyone seriously think that this couldn't spiral unpredictably (apart from Mad Vlad of course)?
This is the most dangerous time most of us have ever lived through. That was clear from the moment Vlad ordered his conscripts in.
Adam Tooze @adam_tooze · 1h We are in truly dangerous spiral: Brave Ukrainian resistance frustrates Russian attack -> Kiev refuses humiliating negotiations. Russia about to ramp up destructiveness of attack NATO members rushing weapons to Ukraine EU/US announce major sanctions. What is Russia’s next move?
This is the worry ignored by many on here...this situation could spiral in unpredictable ways to the detriment of the west....
The bear has to be confronted at some point. If not now, when?
Yes. It has to be now. Here and now. That much has become obvious
Because if we don’t at least try and stop this, then this frothing wolverine of a puffy old man will come for NATO and that means outright nuclear war or pathetic subjugation for all of us
Adam Tooze @adam_tooze · 1h We are in truly dangerous spiral: Brave Ukrainian resistance frustrates Russian attack -> Kiev refuses humiliating negotiations. Russia about to ramp up destructiveness of attack NATO members rushing weapons to Ukraine EU/US announce major sanctions. What is Russia’s next move?
This is the worry ignored by many on here...this situation could spiral in unpredictable ways to the detriment of the west....
Thank god we don't live in the world you want where Zelensky would turn round and bend over.
US Senior Admin Official, in call with reporters, said in addition to disconnecting key Russian banks from SWIFT, the US & Europeans agreed to launch a mutlilateral transatlantic task force to identify, hunt down and seize the assets of sanctioned Russian officials & oligarchs… … as well as those of their families and enablers. We will take their yachts, their luxury apartments, their money, their ability to send their kids to college abroad, the US official said. also cracking down on entities that sell citizenship to wealthy russians to bypass sanctions …. https://twitter.com/lrozen/status/1497706505700847617
White House: The Central Bank of Russia has $630 billion in gold and foreign exchange reserves that can be sold to support the ruble, and the purpose of the sanctions is to make it impossible to exchange this currency to rubles by blocking transactions with Western banks
White House: The US expects that, having lost the support of the Russian Central Bank due to the sanctions imposed on it, the ruble will fall into free fall
Not happy with the pile-on on PJohnson. Better to counter his points with arguments than just say "troll".
He's not really making sustained or fleshed-out arguments, just giving a very good impression of brief and opportunistic propagandising.
Up to you to flesh-out a response. Calling "troll" doesn't cut it.
It does when the comments being made are clearly intended as pro-Putin propaganda. No one had to make logical and reasoned responses to Lord Haw Haw and that is exactly the role 'PJohnson' is playing.
Why publicise? The Russians will now be looking out for it to shoot it down. Putin will try and use it as a warning shot to NATO to stay out
You are really not very you good at this
Russia shooting down a UK aircraft would be an act of war against a NATO country
Putin has already warned NATO to stay out of Ukraine. He has the biggest nuclear weapons arsenal in the world.
Even if it is shot down, while he remains Russian President what are we going to realistically do beyond economic sanctions? We will in theory defend NATO nations but that is it.
As far as Ukraine goes we have given them all the supplies and weapons we could before the invasion and should now stay out of it
The plane is flying to Poland not Ukraine
Well I assume the supplies it is carrying are still going to Ukraine based on the tweet.
So Putin's warning to NATO to stay out still applies, the Russians could bomb truck convoys of supplies entering Ukraine as much as shoot down planes carrying them
He doesn’t control the borders yet. That’s rather the point….
He will soon control most of Ukraine airspace and has warned NATO to stay out. Any NATO nation continuing to get involved in the Ukraine, still a non NATO nation, is therefore also taking a risk
And as we’ve told you, we’re not flying into Ukrainian airspace. We will send what we can while there are open borders. And to be fair, with the troops numbers Russia has, there’s always going to be an open border.
Not even Putin is mad enough to attack us for keeping the weapons flowing, and if he does then, well NATO will hold the line. I accept we can’t sent troops into Ukraine but I’d rather die in a nuclear exchange than refuse to even arm them.
If we don’t stand up to bullies then we aren’t Britain any more.
You are well named, I must say. I see and feel the obligation but I can't say with total honesty that I would rather die in a nuclear exchange than fail to back Ukraine to the hilt.
None of us would. But that's not the choice being offered. It's not that we should do what we can to stop aggressive countries invading their neighbours because of the abstract principle of the thing - though the principle of the thing is important - it is that if we do not do what we can then the baddies get a step closer to us. And then another step. And another, until we finally stop them. Do we stop them in Ukraine, or in the Baltics, or in Scandinavia, or the North Sea, or in the UK? If they're going to chuck bombs at us, they'll do so at some point in the process. It's not immediately obvious that we lessen our chances of avoiding a nuclear attack on the UK by leaving Ukraine to go it alone.
Why publicise? The Russians will now be looking out for it to shoot it down. Putin will try and use it as a warning shot to NATO to stay out
You are really not very you good at this
Russia shooting down a UK aircraft would be an act of war against a NATO country
Putin has already warned NATO to stay out of Ukraine. He has the biggest nuclear weapons arsenal in the world.
Even if it is shot down, while he remains Russian President what are we going to realistically do beyond economic sanctions? We will in theory defend NATO nations but that is it.
As far as Ukraine goes we have given them all the supplies and weapons we could before the invasion and should now stay out of it
The plane is flying to Poland not Ukraine
Well I assume the supplies it is carrying are still going to Ukraine based on the tweet.
So Putin's warning to NATO to stay out still applies, the Russians could bomb truck convoys of supplies entering Ukraine as much as shoot down planes carrying them
He doesn’t control the borders yet. That’s rather the point….
He will soon control most of Ukraine airspace and has warned NATO to stay out. Any NATO nation continuing to get involved in the Ukraine, still a non NATO nation, is therefore also taking a risk
And as we’ve told you, we’re not flying into Ukrainian airspace. We will send what we can while there are open borders. And to be fair, with the troops numbers Russia has, there’s always going to be an open border.
Not even Putin is mad enough to attack us for keeping the weapons flowing, and if he does then, well NATO will hold the line. I accept we can’t sent troops into Ukraine but I’d rather die in a nuclear exchange than refuse to even arm them.
If we don’t stand up to bullies then we aren’t Britain any more.
You are well named, I must say. I see and feel the obligation but I can't say with total honesty that I would rather die in a nuclear exchange than fail to back Ukraine to the hilt.
None of us would. But that's not the choice being offered. It's not that we should do what we can to stop aggressive countries invading their neighbours because of the abstract principle of the thing - though the principle of the thing is important - it is that if we do not do what we can then the baddies get a step closer to us. And then another step. And another, until we finally stop them. Do we stop them in Ukraine, or in the Baltics, or in Scandinavia, or the North Sea, or in the UK? If they're going to chuck bombs at us, they'll do so at some point in the process. It's not immediately obvious that we lessen our chances of avoiding a nuclear attack on the UK by leaving Ukraine to go it alone.
Yes - confronting Russia now is enlightened self interest.
Adam Tooze @adam_tooze · 1h We are in truly dangerous spiral: Brave Ukrainian resistance frustrates Russian attack -> Kiev refuses humiliating negotiations. Russia about to ramp up destructiveness of attack NATO members rushing weapons to Ukraine EU/US announce major sanctions. What is Russia’s next move?
This is the worry ignored by many on here...this situation could spiral in unpredictable ways to the detriment of the west....
I don't know whether you've noticed, but the situation has already spiralled in ways to the detriment of the west. There are currently Russian missiles raining down on Kyiv. The worst is already underway. The attack on the west has started.
US Senior Admin Official, in call with reporters, said in addition to disconnecting key Russian banks from SWIFT, the US & Europeans agreed to launch a mutlilateral transatlantic task force to identify, hunt down and seize the assets of sanctioned Russian officials & oligarchs… … as well as those of their families and enablers. We will take their yachts, their luxury apartments, their money, their ability to send their kids to college abroad, the US official said. also cracking down on entities that sell citizenship to wealthy russians to bypass sanctions …. https://twitter.com/lrozen/status/1497706505700847617
That is good but it is a shame it looks like the International Community will have to do our own dirty work for us. We should be cleaning out the Augean Stables ourselves.
Comments
It is difficult to see how it could have gone worse
Not me son. Quite what a sixty year old coward could do if this escalates I don't know, but if my sacrifice would save my sons for a long and happy life, I'd do whatever it takes Easily said, from an armchair in South Wales, but I've though hard about it today.
Of course easy for me to say, but it is also what they seem to be saying. What arrogance it would be to tell them their own country is not worth fighting for, that their choice is merely to be on their knees and hope for mercy from an enemy whose irrationality has just been powerfully demonstrated.
Good luck getting your money now kids.
Us OTOH...
And I have to say I find affected world weary realpolitik attitudes no less artificial than if someone posted they were about to grab a gun and rush to the front. There is nothing wrong, nothing, in people expressing their view about what they believe should be an appropriate course of action, even extreme courses. Some will be wrong, or impractical, and be called out as such, but lazy talk of keyboard warriors is clearly designed to delegitimise any attempt at honest debate and commentary by implying any comment, however reasonable, is fundamentally undermined due to the source.
Better deal with it now.
Better to counter his points with arguments than just say "troll".
The conventional military plans included invading Sweden and using chemical weapons there. With escalation to tactical nuclear weapons on the table....
Though I’ll make an exception for @PJohnson .
If they pay a heavy price its because of their would-be oppressors invading them. But hopefully the resistance does well to either prevent that or to at least inflict a heavy price on those invading.
Pray for Kiev.
If Putin destroys Kyiv its because he no longer plans of taking the city, (or he thinks he has no chose)
And while I believe the internet should be a more polite space, you do need to have skin thick enough to survive being called a troll from time to time, particularly if you are making the same point over and over.
The idea is to avoid escalating to a nuclear confrontation because the integrity of Ukraine is not worth the annihilation of Western civilisation.
Not 'hurr durr I reject the last 70 years of nuclear theory' and making us all eat your caterpillar.
I wonder if the end point might be both. In desperation Putin will hurl maximum violence at Ukraine - as he did in Chechnya - and “win”. But the slaughter of 1000s in Ukraine in the eyes of the entire world will so revulse everyone he will be deposed very quickly by his own disgusted and embarrassed elite.
A better result for all would be a slug of poison in his stupid tea. Putin is a hyena on ket. He needs to go
Russia has become a “global economic and financial pariah”, a senior US administration official told the Guardian’s diplomatic editor Julian Borger.
Speaking after western allies announced new financial measures against Russia, including the removal of some Russian banks from the Swift global payments network, the official said the measures were designed to target the Kremlin and individuals tied to the Russian government.
“We’ll go after their yachts, their luxury apartments their money and their ability to send their kids to fancy colleges in the west. We will also engage other governments, so as to detect and disrupt the movement of ill-gotten gains, and deny these individuals their ability to hide their assets in jurisdictions across the world,” the official said.
They said that all 10 of Russia’s largest financial institutions had now been subjected to sanctions – “holding nearly 80% of the Russian banking sector’s total assets”.
As a result, the official said: “Russia’s government borrowing costs have more than doubled to almost 17%. The S&P credit rating agency has downgraded Russia to junk status. Within 24 hours of our actions the demand for cash in Russia spiked 58 fold, according to reports, and the Russian government scrambled to deplete its own resources to try and shore up its banks and its currency. In short, Russia has become a global economic and financial pariah.”…
Symbolic obviously but interesting that it is GOP.
Any other European nation though except France or us he could invade or even launch a nuclear attack on without risk of direct response from them. Albeit if it was a NATO nation he still might risk response on mutual self defence
Not an option, but one can dream.
OGH should be buffing his nails on account of the Kremlin taking his blog so seriously.
There is a bit of wartime fervour going on this evening. It will pass, I think.
And that’s before we discuss the value of the cricket betting tips.
I'm not sure precisely what length of essay you think is best suited to "counter" this point, but if the second and final word isn't "off", you're probably wasting your time.
Three days ago I was expecting an easy Russian win and a new iron curtain as a best case scenario. Now, we are looking at a weakened Russia- even if it does conquer Ukraine it will have expended considerable treasure and political capital to do so and will have to expend the same again to hold it.
And I am also inspired by the bravery of the Ukrainians; and of the Russian protestors. Truly we have seen some heroism these last few days. And that is cause for celebration if nothing else.
In cricketing terms, this is an astonishing tenth wicket stand after a top order collapse in the first innings - the west might now be going into the second innings in a slightly less disadvantageous position than we had feared and the prospect of ultimate victory is not as remote as it once was.
@adam_tooze
·
1h
We are in truly dangerous spiral:
Brave Ukrainian resistance frustrates Russian attack -> Kiev refuses humiliating negotiations.
Russia about to ramp up destructiveness of attack
NATO members rushing weapons to Ukraine
EU/US announce major sanctions.
What is Russia’s next move?
If invading fascist Russia was trying to destroy my beloved London, and my beloved Britain & British democracy, I would absolutely send my womenfolk to safety (if I could) and take up an AK47 and lie down behind sandbags and shoot any Russian fucker walking down Camden High Street
Why not? What a noble way to go. And we might even win. It’s the younger men who are making the greater sacrifice
@DonaldHTaylor
· 1h
The coming days scare me. Putin, fearing humiliation in Ukraine, will demand advances. The onslaught could be Aleppo/Grozny intense, accelerated by a wish to beat the arrival of western aid. It will be indiscriminately savage, unless Russia really lacks materiel (as some believe)
But given the latter, I’d like to think we’d refuse to surrender our hopes for a better future, just as has Ukraine.
How would you like to be governed by an authoritarian sociopath, in a country which has become an international pariah in the space of a few days ?
https://twitter.com/KevinRothrock/status/1497637654925611011
That's good enough reason to shoo away pesky little farts like P Johnson whenever they show up. They spoil the brand - and it is a very good brand.
God help them.
White House: The US expects that, having lost the support of the Russian Central Bank due to the sanctions imposed on it, the ruble will fall into free fall
https://twitter.com/ragipsoylu/status/1497717916380323843
This is the most dangerous time most of us have ever lived through. That was clear from the moment Vlad ordered his conscripts in.
Because if we don’t at least try and stop this, then this frothing wolverine of a puffy old man will come for NATO and that means outright nuclear war or pathetic subjugation for all of us
US Senior Admin Official, in call with reporters, said in addition to disconnecting key Russian banks from SWIFT, the US & Europeans agreed to launch a mutlilateral transatlantic task force to identify, hunt down and seize the assets of sanctioned Russian officials & oligarchs…
… as well as those of their families and enablers. We will take their yachts, their luxury apartments, their money, their ability to send their kids to college abroad, the US official said.
also cracking down on entities that sell citizenship to wealthy russians to bypass sanctions ….
https://twitter.com/lrozen/status/1497706505700847617
Astonishing video footage from the front line in NY Times blog:
https://www.nytimes.com/live/2022/02/26/world/ukraine-russia-war#video-captures-fierce-fighting-near-kyiv
The Ukrainians behave like heroes.
The Poles behave as they should.
The Germans behave like always.
🇷🇺🇺🇦🇵🇱🇩🇪
https://twitter.com/visegrad24/status/1497723811415793664?
But that's not the choice being offered.
It's not that we should do what we can to stop aggressive countries invading their neighbours because of the abstract principle of the thing - though the principle of the thing is important - it is that if we do not do what we can then the baddies get a step closer to us. And then another step. And another, until we finally stop them.
Do we stop them in Ukraine, or in the Baltics, or in Scandinavia, or the North Sea, or in the UK? If they're going to chuck bombs at us, they'll do so at some point in the process. It's not immediately obvious that we lessen our chances of avoiding a nuclear attack on the UK by leaving Ukraine to go it alone.
⬜⬜🟨⬜⬜
🟨🟨🟨⬜⬜
⬜⬜🟩🟩🟩
⬜⬜🟩🟩🟩
🟩🟩🟩🟩🟩
I have to stop doing these drunk at 00:01.