Major is another fucking 2nd voter, like Starmer et al. Despicable piece of anti-democratic sh1t. Another British Trumpite marching on parliament to overthrow an election
"Former British prime minister John Major has called for a free vote in parliament on whether to hold a second EU referendum. He is the most senior Conservative yet to attack what he called the government’s “unrealistic” Brexit strategy.
In a speech in London that comes at the lowest point so far in the 18-month withdrawal negotiations, Major argued parliament had a duty to consider the “wellbeing of the people”, as well as the will of the people in the first referendum.
“This must be a decisive vote, in which parliament can accept or reject the final outcome; or send the negotiators back to seek improvements; or order a referendum,” he was due to say according to an advance copy of the speech. “That is what parliamentary sovereignty means.”
“No one can truly know what ‘the will of the people’ may then be. So, let parliament decide. Or put the issue back to the people,” he said."
Let him fuck off back to Huntingdonshire and his deserved obscurity. He has no credibility on anything
Seems early for G (And no T) time.... Hmmm... It is 3pm in Sri Lanka....
I know I have a deserved reputation for drinking. but I am quite capable of losing my rag after << checks hotel room >> two cups of tea and a coffee, if needs be
And if there is one thing that enrages me, it is the people that called for the 2nd vote, without enacting the first. They wanted to cancel democracy, they should grovellingly apologise, be stripped to their vests and y-fronts and pelted with soft rancid eclairs in Leicester Square, then they should slink away from public life forever
There were people who wanted to overturn the 2019 general election because they didn't like the result:
Mere speculation, but: dodgy postal vote spike, dodgy Tory funding, Kuenssberg breaking electoral rules - what’s the chance of the election being voided, hung Parliament returning & this time getting it right: a government of national unity and a second-thoughts EU referendum?
You banana it's not "overturning" the election result if it is by means of another election. Or rather it is but that's the way it's supposed to work. The 2019 GE overturned the 2017 GE. The 2017 GE overturned the 2015 GE, usw.
Wrong. The 2015 and 2017 GEs created parliaments which sat until dissolved in accordance with the law.
If you can't see that this is different from voting for something but it never being implemented before you're told to vote again, then you're beyond help.
Were 100% of the 2017 Conservative Party manifesto pledges implemented.
Edit: and there could have been GEs at any time at all, subject to agreement required (as set down in law - what is it 2/3rds majority).
"Australia’s largest pension fund to pour £23bn into UK and Europe"
Much more, per capita, is going into the UK than the EU
They are increasing UK investment by 114%, and EU investment by 122%. So a slight rebalance towards EU funds in a landscape of overall increased investment (as it says in the article, this means they are maintaining the overall level of investment in the region relative to others).
I could open my bedroom door and find Olivia Wilde and Jennifer Morrison pillow-fighting over which one of them gets to sleep with me.
I'm sure you are magnanimous enough to say "Ladies, no need to fight....you both can."
I am reminded of the old priest who was asked by a young male parishioner whether it was OK to sleep with his girl-friend. 'To be sure, it's OK' the old man replied 'Trouble is, you young people don't sleep!"
Old joke -
Judge: Did you or did you not sleep with this woman? Co-respondent: Not a wink, m'lud.
Major is another fucking 2nd voter, like Starmer et al. Despicable piece of anti-democratic sh1t. Another British Trumpite marching on parliament to overthrow an election
"Former British prime minister John Major has called for a free vote in parliament on whether to hold a second EU referendum. He is the most senior Conservative yet to attack what he called the government’s “unrealistic” Brexit strategy.
In a speech in London that comes at the lowest point so far in the 18-month withdrawal negotiations, Major argued parliament had a duty to consider the “wellbeing of the people”, as well as the will of the people in the first referendum.
“This must be a decisive vote, in which parliament can accept or reject the final outcome; or send the negotiators back to seek improvements; or order a referendum,” he was due to say according to an advance copy of the speech. “That is what parliamentary sovereignty means.”
“No one can truly know what ‘the will of the people’ may then be. So, let parliament decide. Or put the issue back to the people,” he said."
Let him fuck off back to Huntingdonshire and his deserved obscurity. He has no credibility on anything
In what way is holding another democratic vote not democratic.
Because you have to enact the first vote before anything else, AND we were solemnly told by the prime minister and by the government - in a leaflet sent to every British household - that our say in that vote in June 2016 was FINAL. That what we chose is what would happen: REMAIN or LEAVE
There is simply no escaping this moral logic, and anyone that is still trying is adding risible absurdity to grotesque outrage
No you don't. You are asking the same people so it's perfectly democratic. Hugely impractical but perfectly democratic.
Telling people "you can have a vote but if you give the wrong answer we'll make you vote again and again until you get it right" is "perfectly democratic"? OK then.
Prime Minister: "Hey, British people, we are finally gonna have a vote on whether to REMAIN or LEAVE the EU, and it will be the one and only vote, and the final vote, and your vote will be respected, whatever it is! And I'm the prime minister! And look, here's a leaflet confirming this which we will send to every house in the land! How good is that?!"
British people: "Great, so if we vote LEAVE we will LEAVE?"
Prime Minister. "No. If you do that we will argue about it then make you vote again until you vote REMAIN and we will ignore your first vote, because you're stupid."
British people: "So you're totally lying?"
Prime minister: "Yes."
British people: "Is there any reason we should ever vote on anything ever again, if you can just ignore votes you don't like?"
Prime minister: "No."
British people: "So we have stopped being a democracy?"
Prime minister: "Yes. Now fuck off and let the important people decide everything."
Agree with this - time for the EU to stop using Horizon Europe as a bargaining chip in international negotiations. A few weeks is understandable, longer and it looks like another facet of growing protectionism that will weaken the programme….
Not considered polite across the EU to point out that it hasn't regained political equilibrium since the UK left, and that French industrial activism and protectionism are far too dominant, but I do see and hear deepening concerns as to what is happening.
Major is another fucking 2nd voter, like Starmer et al. Despicable piece of anti-democratic sh1t. Another British Trumpite marching on parliament to overthrow an election
"Former British prime minister John Major has called for a free vote in parliament on whether to hold a second EU referendum. He is the most senior Conservative yet to attack what he called the government’s “unrealistic” Brexit strategy.
In a speech in London that comes at the lowest point so far in the 18-month withdrawal negotiations, Major argued parliament had a duty to consider the “wellbeing of the people”, as well as the will of the people in the first referendum.
“This must be a decisive vote, in which parliament can accept or reject the final outcome; or send the negotiators back to seek improvements; or order a referendum,” he was due to say according to an advance copy of the speech. “That is what parliamentary sovereignty means.”
“No one can truly know what ‘the will of the people’ may then be. So, let parliament decide. Or put the issue back to the people,” he said."
Let him fuck off back to Huntingdonshire and his deserved obscurity. He has no credibility on anything
In what way is holding another democratic vote not democratic.
Because you have to enact the first vote before anything else, AND we were solemnly told by the prime minister and by the government - in a leaflet sent to every British household - that our say in that vote in June 2016 was FINAL. That what we chose is what would happen: REMAIN or LEAVE
The is simply no escaping this moral logic, and anyone that is still trying is adding risible absurdity to grotesque outrage
I am truly baffled how anyone is still going on about the Brexit vote.
I campaigned for Remain but I haven't spent my time since wallowing in the result.
It's so bizarre how obsessed some Brexiteers STILL are with this. What is wrong with you? Do you actually, deep down, know it was wrong or something?
There are people equally obsessed on both sides.
I have people on WhatsApp, who believe that the moment that BJ steps down, the Conservative Party *must* reverse BREXIT and join the Euro. Without a vote.... in the Commons!
Well that's social media for you. There are nutters on all fringes.
The mainstream of the country knows that we left the EU, Brexit happened and if 'ever' it were to be revoked it would require a new vote and a huge amount of goodwill from the EU.
It's not going to happen anytime soon. Most of the gammons can be assured that they will rest in peace in the ground long before we rejoin, if ever we do.
Well, I'm of an age with many gammons, and I sincerely hope we'll have rejoined, or (since I don't feel all that fit at the moment) that we'll be well on the way to doing so before I go to the great chat-room in the sky!
Major is another fucking 2nd voter, like Starmer et al. Despicable piece of anti-democratic sh1t. Another British Trumpite marching on parliament to overthrow an election
"Former British prime minister John Major has called for a free vote in parliament on whether to hold a second EU referendum. He is the most senior Conservative yet to attack what he called the government’s “unrealistic” Brexit strategy.
In a speech in London that comes at the lowest point so far in the 18-month withdrawal negotiations, Major argued parliament had a duty to consider the “wellbeing of the people”, as well as the will of the people in the first referendum.
“This must be a decisive vote, in which parliament can accept or reject the final outcome; or send the negotiators back to seek improvements; or order a referendum,” he was due to say according to an advance copy of the speech. “That is what parliamentary sovereignty means.”
“No one can truly know what ‘the will of the people’ may then be. So, let parliament decide. Or put the issue back to the people,” he said."
Let him fuck off back to Huntingdonshire and his deserved obscurity. He has no credibility on anything
In what way is holding another democratic vote not democratic.
Because you have to enact the first vote before anything else, AND we were solemnly told by the prime minister and by the government - in a leaflet sent to every British household - that our say in that vote in June 2016 was FINAL. That what we chose is what would happen: REMAIN or LEAVE
There is simply no escaping this moral logic, and anyone that is still trying is adding risible absurdity to grotesque outrage
No you don't. You are asking the same people so it's perfectly democratic. Hugely impractical but perfectly democratic.
Telling people "you can have a vote but if you give the wrong answer we'll make you vote again and again until you get it right" is "perfectly democratic"? OK then.
As I said it is hugely impractical and pretty soon a political structure or party would emerge that said enough of this nonsense and people would vote for that party.
But at the next GE that could still all be reversed.
It's not just "hugely impractical", it (would have been) anti-democratic.
The thing which baffles me is how the second-voters never saw that the EU's rejection of referendum results in Denmark, France and Ireland (twice) because the voters gave the wrong answer is one of the things which drove the Leave vote. They shredded their credibility by not standing up the day after the referendum and saying "the people have spoken, the bastards".
Major is another fucking 2nd voter, like Starmer et al. Despicable piece of anti-democratic sh1t. Another British Trumpite marching on parliament to overthrow an election
"Former British prime minister John Major has called for a free vote in parliament on whether to hold a second EU referendum. He is the most senior Conservative yet to attack what he called the government’s “unrealistic” Brexit strategy.
In a speech in London that comes at the lowest point so far in the 18-month withdrawal negotiations, Major argued parliament had a duty to consider the “wellbeing of the people”, as well as the will of the people in the first referendum.
“This must be a decisive vote, in which parliament can accept or reject the final outcome; or send the negotiators back to seek improvements; or order a referendum,” he was due to say according to an advance copy of the speech. “That is what parliamentary sovereignty means.”
“No one can truly know what ‘the will of the people’ may then be. So, let parliament decide. Or put the issue back to the people,” he said."
Let him fuck off back to Huntingdonshire and his deserved obscurity. He has no credibility on anything
In what way is holding another democratic vote not democratic.
Because you have to enact the first vote before anything else, AND we were solemnly told by the prime minister and by the government - in a leaflet sent to every British household - that our say in that vote in June 2016 was FINAL. That what we chose is what would happen: REMAIN or LEAVE
The is simply no escaping this moral logic, and anyone that is still trying is adding risible absurdity to grotesque outrage
I am truly baffled how anyone is still going on about the Brexit vote.
I campaigned for Remain but I haven't spent my time since wallowing in the result.
It's so bizarre how obsessed some Brexiteers STILL are with this. What is wrong with you? Do you actually, deep down, know it was wrong or something?
There are people equally obsessed on both sides.
I have people on WhatsApp, who believe that the moment that BJ steps down, the Conservative Party *must* reverse BREXIT and join the Euro. Without a vote.... in the Commons!
Well that's social media for you. There are nutters on all fringes.
The mainstream of the country knows that we left the EU, Brexit happened and if 'ever' it were to be revoked it would require a new vote and a huge amount of goodwill from the EU.
It's not going to happen anytime soon. Most of the gammons can be assured that they will rest in peace in the ground long before we rejoin, if ever we do.
It would, among other things actually require joining the Euro. Which is probably the biggest block to it happening, as things stand.
Major is another fucking 2nd voter, like Starmer et al. Despicable piece of anti-democratic sh1t. Another British Trumpite marching on parliament to overthrow an election
"Former British prime minister John Major has called for a free vote in parliament on whether to hold a second EU referendum. He is the most senior Conservative yet to attack what he called the government’s “unrealistic” Brexit strategy.
In a speech in London that comes at the lowest point so far in the 18-month withdrawal negotiations, Major argued parliament had a duty to consider the “wellbeing of the people”, as well as the will of the people in the first referendum.
“This must be a decisive vote, in which parliament can accept or reject the final outcome; or send the negotiators back to seek improvements; or order a referendum,” he was due to say according to an advance copy of the speech. “That is what parliamentary sovereignty means.”
“No one can truly know what ‘the will of the people’ may then be. So, let parliament decide. Or put the issue back to the people,” he said."
Let him fuck off back to Huntingdonshire and his deserved obscurity. He has no credibility on anything
In what way is holding another democratic vote not democratic.
You implement the result of the first one first. An MP gets elected to parliament for 5 years - only after that period can the electors change their minds.
How many years do you reckon we should give Brexit before it's deemed to be as "implemented" as it will ever be? 5, like Parliament? 20, like the Scottish "generation"? Forever, while we wait for the illusory benefits of splendid isolation to arrive? Remainers should not be hostages indefinitely to the inability of Brexiteers to achieve the promised nirvana.
I'm not personally in favour of an early revote, and think that the most likely future is a Labour government settling for customs union/EFTA, but there is nothing in the least undemocratic about people who disagree arguing their case even 1 day after losing a vote. Democracy, innit.
A Rejoin referendum now would be legitimate, but fairly pointless. I'm not sure you can put an exact timeframe on when it would have a point - the Eu stopping playing silly buggers would be among the prerequisites.
Well I think the EU would be entitled to ask us to stop playing silly buggers before they do, but none of this is going to happen.
There's not going to be a second referendum any time soon. The terms of rejoining would clearly be worse than those we relinquished. That would be an impossible sell.
John Major had the second longest consecutive period in office of any male Tory PM in the House of Commons, dating the foundation of the party as being from the general election of 1807 which was fought by a 'Pittite' faction of whigs, tories and monarchists under a single banner that *wasn't* linked to loyalty to a living individual politician.
The only ones who had longer single terms in office were Lord Salisbury and Lord Liverpool (who were members of the Lords) Margaret Thatcher (who was a woman) and Harold Macmillan, whose single term exceeded that of Major by four months at nearly seven years.
Major is another fucking 2nd voter, like Starmer et al. Despicable piece of anti-democratic sh1t. Another British Trumpite marching on parliament to overthrow an election
"Former British prime minister John Major has called for a free vote in parliament on whether to hold a second EU referendum. He is the most senior Conservative yet to attack what he called the government’s “unrealistic” Brexit strategy.
In a speech in London that comes at the lowest point so far in the 18-month withdrawal negotiations, Major argued parliament had a duty to consider the “wellbeing of the people”, as well as the will of the people in the first referendum.
“This must be a decisive vote, in which parliament can accept or reject the final outcome; or send the negotiators back to seek improvements; or order a referendum,” he was due to say according to an advance copy of the speech. “That is what parliamentary sovereignty means.”
“No one can truly know what ‘the will of the people’ may then be. So, let parliament decide. Or put the issue back to the people,” he said."
Let him fuck off back to Huntingdonshire and his deserved obscurity. He has no credibility on anything
Seems early for G (And no T) time.... Hmmm... It is 3pm in Sri Lanka....
I know I have a deserved reputation for drinking. but I am quite capable of losing my rag after << checks hotel room >> two cups of tea and a coffee, if needs be
And if there is one thing that enrages me, it is the people that called for the 2nd vote, without enacting the first. They wanted to cancel democracy, they should grovellingly apologise, be stripped to their vests and y-fronts and pelted with soft rancid eclairs in Leicester Square, then they should slink away from public life forever
There were people who wanted to overturn the 2019 general election because they didn't like the result:
Mere speculation, but: dodgy postal vote spike, dodgy Tory funding, Kuenssberg breaking electoral rules - what’s the chance of the election being voided, hung Parliament returning & this time getting it right: a government of national unity and a second-thoughts EU referendum?
You banana it's not "overturning" the election result if it is by means of another election. Or rather it is but that's the way it's supposed to work. The 2019 GE overturned the 2017 GE. The 2017 GE overturned the 2015 GE, usw.
Wrong. The 2015 and 2017 GEs created parliaments which sat until dissolved in accordance with the law.
If you can't see that this is different from voting for something but it never being implemented before you're told to vote again, then you're beyond help.
Were 100% of the 2017 Conservative Party manifesto pledges implemented.
Edit: and there could have been GEs at any time at all, subject to agreement required (as set down in law - what is it 2/3rds majority).
Manifesto pledges are irrelevant - this is settled law. I'm sure you remember why it became settled law.
Agree with this - time for the EU to stop using Horizon Europe as a bargaining chip in international negotiations. A few weeks is understandable, longer and it looks like another facet of growing protectionism that will weaken the programme….
Not considered polite across the EU to point out that it hasn't regained political equilibrium since the UK left, and that French industrial activism and protectionism are far too dominant, but I do see and hear deepening concerns as to what is happening.
If even the USA and Russia can work together on the world’s largest and most expensive science project, 250 miles above our heads, then surely the EU can work with the British and the Swiss?
Major is another fucking 2nd voter, like Starmer et al. Despicable piece of anti-democratic sh1t. Another British Trumpite marching on parliament to overthrow an election
"Former British prime minister John Major has called for a free vote in parliament on whether to hold a second EU referendum. He is the most senior Conservative yet to attack what he called the government’s “unrealistic” Brexit strategy.
In a speech in London that comes at the lowest point so far in the 18-month withdrawal negotiations, Major argued parliament had a duty to consider the “wellbeing of the people”, as well as the will of the people in the first referendum.
“This must be a decisive vote, in which parliament can accept or reject the final outcome; or send the negotiators back to seek improvements; or order a referendum,” he was due to say according to an advance copy of the speech. “That is what parliamentary sovereignty means.”
“No one can truly know what ‘the will of the people’ may then be. So, let parliament decide. Or put the issue back to the people,” he said."
Let him fuck off back to Huntingdonshire and his deserved obscurity. He has no credibility on anything
Seems early for G (And no T) time.... Hmmm... It is 3pm in Sri Lanka....
I know I have a deserved reputation for drinking. but I am quite capable of losing my rag after << checks hotel room >> two cups of tea and a coffee, if needs be
And if there is one thing that enrages me, it is the people that called for the 2nd vote, without enacting the first. They wanted to cancel democracy, they should grovellingly apologise, be stripped to their vests and y-fronts and pelted with soft rancid eclairs in Leicester Square, then they should slink away from public life forever
There were people who wanted to overturn the 2019 general election because they didn't like the result:
Mere speculation, but: dodgy postal vote spike, dodgy Tory funding, Kuenssberg breaking electoral rules - what’s the chance of the election being voided, hung Parliament returning & this time getting it right: a government of national unity and a second-thoughts EU referendum?
Ah, AC Grayling, the man driven so completely mad by the decision to leave the EU, that he thinks only the good people like himself should choose the government. The plebs don’t deserve the vote, if they will keep voting the wrong way.
There is even a read made political party for such people - Optimates.
All it needs is the recognition that what they don't like is the Head Count voting on anything important. Keep the courts and the coinage. Let the rabble have the rest....
We could, I suppose, bring back the university seats. We might even extend them to the Russell Group if they play nicely.
Major is another fucking 2nd voter, like Starmer et al. Despicable piece of anti-democratic sh1t. Another British Trumpite marching on parliament to overthrow an election
"Former British prime minister John Major has called for a free vote in parliament on whether to hold a second EU referendum. He is the most senior Conservative yet to attack what he called the government’s “unrealistic” Brexit strategy.
In a speech in London that comes at the lowest point so far in the 18-month withdrawal negotiations, Major argued parliament had a duty to consider the “wellbeing of the people”, as well as the will of the people in the first referendum.
“This must be a decisive vote, in which parliament can accept or reject the final outcome; or send the negotiators back to seek improvements; or order a referendum,” he was due to say according to an advance copy of the speech. “That is what parliamentary sovereignty means.”
“No one can truly know what ‘the will of the people’ may then be. So, let parliament decide. Or put the issue back to the people,” he said."
Let him fuck off back to Huntingdonshire and his deserved obscurity. He has no credibility on anything
In what way is holding another democratic vote not democratic.
You implement the result of the first one first. An MP gets elected to parliament for 5 years - only after that period can the electors change their minds.
How many years do you reckon we should give Brexit before it's deemed to be as "implemented" as it will ever be? 5, like Parliament? 20, like the Scottish "generation"? Forever, while we wait for the illusory benefits of splendid isolation to arrive? Remainers should not be hostages indefinitely to the inability of Brexiteers to achieve the promised nirvana.
I'm not personally in favour of an early revote, and think that the most likely future is a Labour government settling for customs union/EFTA, but there is nothing in the least undemocratic about people who disagree arguing their case even 1 day after losing a vote. Democracy, innit.
I have no objection to a revote tomorrow. Today. This afternoon
Brexit is forever,,,, or it may only be for 6 years and we change our minds and we go back in. That's fine. THAT is democracy. We voted to Leave. We have left. Democracy was (belatedly) honoured. We can vote again any time we like
You are too smart not to see the difference between this and what the 2nd voters wanted: to ignore and anull the first vote and have a new vote to secure a REMAIN victory, and never actually LEAVE, despite the expressed will of the British people
Major is another fucking 2nd voter, like Starmer et al. Despicable piece of anti-democratic sh1t. Another British Trumpite marching on parliament to overthrow an election
"Former British prime minister John Major has called for a free vote in parliament on whether to hold a second EU referendum. He is the most senior Conservative yet to attack what he called the government’s “unrealistic” Brexit strategy.
In a speech in London that comes at the lowest point so far in the 18-month withdrawal negotiations, Major argued parliament had a duty to consider the “wellbeing of the people”, as well as the will of the people in the first referendum.
“This must be a decisive vote, in which parliament can accept or reject the final outcome; or send the negotiators back to seek improvements; or order a referendum,” he was due to say according to an advance copy of the speech. “That is what parliamentary sovereignty means.”
“No one can truly know what ‘the will of the people’ may then be. So, let parliament decide. Or put the issue back to the people,” he said."
Let him fuck off back to Huntingdonshire and his deserved obscurity. He has no credibility on anything
In what way is holding another democratic vote not democratic.
You implement the result of the first one first. An MP gets elected to parliament for 5 years - only after that period can the electors change their minds.
How many years do you reckon we should give Brexit before it's deemed to be as "implemented" as it will ever be? 5, like Parliament? 20, like the Scottish "generation"? Forever, while we wait for the illusory benefits of splendid isolation to arrive? Remainers should not be hostages indefinitely to the inability of Brexiteers to achieve the promised nirvana.
I'm not personally in favour of an early revote, and think that the most likely future is a Labour government settling for customs union/EFTA, but there is nothing in the least undemocratic about people who disagree arguing their case even 1 day after losing a vote. Democracy, innit.
A Rejoin referendum now would be legitimate, but fairly pointless. I'm not sure you can put an exact timeframe on when it would have a point - the Eu stopping playing silly buggers would be among the prerequisites.
Well I think the EU would be entitled to ask us to stop playing silly buggers before they do, but none of this is going to happen.
There's not going to be a second referendum any time soon. The terms of rejoining would clearly be worse than those we relinquished. That would be an impossible sell.
Indeed. That's why the unreconciled federalists fought so hard to overturn the 2016 referendum - they knew how difficult Rejoin would be once we were out.
Major is another fucking 2nd voter, like Starmer et al. Despicable piece of anti-democratic sh1t. Another British Trumpite marching on parliament to overthrow an election
"Former British prime minister John Major has called for a free vote in parliament on whether to hold a second EU referendum. He is the most senior Conservative yet to attack what he called the government’s “unrealistic” Brexit strategy.
In a speech in London that comes at the lowest point so far in the 18-month withdrawal negotiations, Major argued parliament had a duty to consider the “wellbeing of the people”, as well as the will of the people in the first referendum.
“This must be a decisive vote, in which parliament can accept or reject the final outcome; or send the negotiators back to seek improvements; or order a referendum,” he was due to say according to an advance copy of the speech. “That is what parliamentary sovereignty means.”
“No one can truly know what ‘the will of the people’ may then be. So, let parliament decide. Or put the issue back to the people,” he said."
Let him fuck off back to Huntingdonshire and his deserved obscurity. He has no credibility on anything
John Major was truly the king of the hypocrites.
There were no free votes or referendum on his precious Maastricht treaty.
And then there was his affair with Edwina Currie contrasted with his 'back to basics' morality drive.
I find Major an utterly repulsive figure, his canting lies about Europe are one reason we ended up where we did, as you say
There are a zillion reasons to dump Boris, and I think he should be dumped, but the opinion of John bloody Major is not one of them
I actually disagree with that. Maastricht, with its pillars, variable geometry, opt outs and subsidiarity created a place where the UK could be in the EU getting what we wanted out of it whilst not getting in the road of those who wanted more, such as the single currency. Of course we should have had a vote on it but it did offer us at least the foundations of the half way house we were looking for.
The problem was that Blair in particular, and Brown, wanted to be at the heart of Europe so they gave up some of the opt outs and put us back on the track to ever closer union, albeit at a slower pace, through Lisbon. And, of course, we still didn't get a vote on it.
If they had built on the path Major set out in Maastricht instead I think that we would still be in the EU, with the vast majority (if not all the fanatics) quite content with our half way house.
Major is another fucking 2nd voter, like Starmer et al. Despicable piece of anti-democratic sh1t. Another British Trumpite marching on parliament to overthrow an election
"Former British prime minister John Major has called for a free vote in parliament on whether to hold a second EU referendum. He is the most senior Conservative yet to attack what he called the government’s “unrealistic” Brexit strategy.
In a speech in London that comes at the lowest point so far in the 18-month withdrawal negotiations, Major argued parliament had a duty to consider the “wellbeing of the people”, as well as the will of the people in the first referendum.
“This must be a decisive vote, in which parliament can accept or reject the final outcome; or send the negotiators back to seek improvements; or order a referendum,” he was due to say according to an advance copy of the speech. “That is what parliamentary sovereignty means.”
“No one can truly know what ‘the will of the people’ may then be. So, let parliament decide. Or put the issue back to the people,” he said."
Let him fuck off back to Huntingdonshire and his deserved obscurity. He has no credibility on anything
In what way is holding another democratic vote not democratic.
Because you have to enact the first vote before anything else, AND we were solemnly told by the prime minister and by the government - in a leaflet sent to every British household - that our say in that vote in June 2016 was FINAL. That what we chose is what would happen: REMAIN or LEAVE
There is simply no escaping this moral logic, and anyone that is still trying is adding risible absurdity to grotesque outrage
No you don't. You are asking the same people so it's perfectly democratic. Hugely impractical but perfectly democratic.
Telling people "you can have a vote but if you give the wrong answer we'll make you vote again and again until you get it right" is "perfectly democratic"? OK then.
As I said it is hugely impractical and pretty soon a political structure or party would emerge that said enough of this nonsense and people would vote for that party.
But at the next GE that could still all be reversed.
It's not just "hugely impractical", it (would have been) anti-democratic.
The thing which baffles me is how the second-voters never saw that the EU's rejection of referendum results in Denmark, France and Ireland (twice) because the voters gave the wrong answer is one of the things which drove the Leave vote. They shredded their credibility by not standing up the day after the referendum and saying "the people have spoken, the bastards".
Interesting categorisation of "rejection of the referendum results". They voted again. They voted differently. Not how I would have run it but they are all sovereign nations deciding to hold or not hold votes. No one had a gun to their heads. Why look, even the UK managed to leave the EU.
Major is another fucking 2nd voter, like Starmer et al. Despicable piece of anti-democratic sh1t. Another British Trumpite marching on parliament to overthrow an election
"Former British prime minister John Major has called for a free vote in parliament on whether to hold a second EU referendum. He is the most senior Conservative yet to attack what he called the government’s “unrealistic” Brexit strategy.
In a speech in London that comes at the lowest point so far in the 18-month withdrawal negotiations, Major argued parliament had a duty to consider the “wellbeing of the people”, as well as the will of the people in the first referendum.
“This must be a decisive vote, in which parliament can accept or reject the final outcome; or send the negotiators back to seek improvements; or order a referendum,” he was due to say according to an advance copy of the speech. “That is what parliamentary sovereignty means.”
“No one can truly know what ‘the will of the people’ may then be. So, let parliament decide. Or put the issue back to the people,” he said."
Let him fuck off back to Huntingdonshire and his deserved obscurity. He has no credibility on anything
Seems early for G (And no T) time.... Hmmm... It is 3pm in Sri Lanka....
I know I have a deserved reputation for drinking. but I am quite capable of losing my rag after << checks hotel room >> two cups of tea and a coffee, if needs be
And if there is one thing that enrages me, it is the people that called for the 2nd vote, without enacting the first. They wanted to cancel democracy, they should grovellingly apologise, be stripped to their vests and y-fronts and pelted with soft rancid eclairs in Leicester Square, then they should slink away from public life forever
There were people who wanted to overturn the 2019 general election because they didn't like the result:
Mere speculation, but: dodgy postal vote spike, dodgy Tory funding, Kuenssberg breaking electoral rules - what’s the chance of the election being voided, hung Parliament returning & this time getting it right: a government of national unity and a second-thoughts EU referendum?
Ah, AC Grayling, the man driven so completely mad by the decision to leave the EU, that he thinks only the good people like himself should choose the government. The plebs don’t deserve the vote, if they will keep voting the wrong way.
There is even a read made political party for such people - Optimates.
All it needs is the recognition that what they don't like is the Head Count voting on anything important. Keep the courts and the coinage. Let the rabble have the rest....
We could, I suppose, bring back the university seats. We might even extend them to the Russell Group if they play nicely.
Based on yesterday's threader, I'm not sure we should let Oxford have one.
A second referendum would be fine if it is in a manifesto pre next GE, and that party wins.
Can't see it happening mind
"Yes, cost of living is important, but more so is our commitment to reopen Brexit, to negotiate about Brexit non-stop with the EU, to get the terms of Brexit reversed so we can rejoin the EU, to publish the Brexit-reversal terms so we can offer that to you in another referendum about Brexit and have a campaign to persuade you to...wait, voter, come back, I haven't finished outlining our plans on Brexit...."
Major is another fucking 2nd voter, like Starmer et al. Despicable piece of anti-democratic sh1t. Another British Trumpite marching on parliament to overthrow an election
"Former British prime minister John Major has called for a free vote in parliament on whether to hold a second EU referendum. He is the most senior Conservative yet to attack what he called the government’s “unrealistic” Brexit strategy.
In a speech in London that comes at the lowest point so far in the 18-month withdrawal negotiations, Major argued parliament had a duty to consider the “wellbeing of the people”, as well as the will of the people in the first referendum.
“This must be a decisive vote, in which parliament can accept or reject the final outcome; or send the negotiators back to seek improvements; or order a referendum,” he was due to say according to an advance copy of the speech. “That is what parliamentary sovereignty means.”
“No one can truly know what ‘the will of the people’ may then be. So, let parliament decide. Or put the issue back to the people,” he said."
Let him fuck off back to Huntingdonshire and his deserved obscurity. He has no credibility on anything
John Major was truly the king of the hypocrites.
There were no free votes or referendum on his precious Maastricht treaty.
And then there was his affair with Edwina Currie contrasted with his 'back to basics' morality drive.
I find Major an utterly repulsive figure, his canting lies about Europe are one reason we ended up where we did, as you say
There are a zillion reasons to dump Boris, and I think he should be dumped, but the opinion of John bloody Major is not one of them
I actually disagree with that. Maastricht, with its pillars, variable geometry, opt outs and subsidiarity created a place where the UK could be in the EU getting what we wanted out of it whilst not getting in the road of those who wanted more, such as the single currency. Of course we should have had a vote on it but it did offer us at least the foundations of the half way house we were looking for.
The problem was that Blair in particular, and Brown, wanted to be at the heart of Europe so they gave up some of the opt outs and put us back on the track to ever closer union, albeit at a slower pace, through Lisbon. And, of course, we still didn't get a vote on it.
If they had built on the path Major set out in Maastricht instead I think that we would still be in the EU, with the vast majority (if not all the fanatics) quite content with our half way house.
And that would also be Blair and Brown who were democratically elected to govern the UK according to their political philosophy.
A second referendum would be fine if it is in a manifesto pre next GE, and that party wins.
Can't see it happening mind
"Yes, cost of living is important, but more so is our commitment to reopen Brexit, to negotiate about Brexit non-stop with the EU, to get the terms of Brexit reversed so we can rejoin the EU, to publish the Brexit-reversal terms so we can offer that to you in another referendum about Brexit and have a campaign to persuade you to...wait, voter, come back, I haven't finished outlining our plans on Brexit...."
Yep absolutely top of this country's priorities and No.1 in Starmer's in tray, causing him sleepless nights.
The trouble is, I can imagine Johnson claiming all this is the case. He'll whip up the Daily Express readers but the rest of us sane middle ground? Don't think so.
Major is another fucking 2nd voter, like Starmer et al. Despicable piece of anti-democratic sh1t. Another British Trumpite marching on parliament to overthrow an election
"Former British prime minister John Major has called for a free vote in parliament on whether to hold a second EU referendum. He is the most senior Conservative yet to attack what he called the government’s “unrealistic” Brexit strategy.
In a speech in London that comes at the lowest point so far in the 18-month withdrawal negotiations, Major argued parliament had a duty to consider the “wellbeing of the people”, as well as the will of the people in the first referendum.
“This must be a decisive vote, in which parliament can accept or reject the final outcome; or send the negotiators back to seek improvements; or order a referendum,” he was due to say according to an advance copy of the speech. “That is what parliamentary sovereignty means.”
“No one can truly know what ‘the will of the people’ may then be. So, let parliament decide. Or put the issue back to the people,” he said."
Let him fuck off back to Huntingdonshire and his deserved obscurity. He has no credibility on anything
John Major was truly the king of the hypocrites.
There were no free votes or referendum on his precious Maastricht treaty.
And then there was his affair with Edwina Currie contrasted with his 'back to basics' morality drive.
I find Major an utterly repulsive figure, his canting lies about Europe are one reason we ended up where we did, as you say
There are a zillion reasons to dump Boris, and I think he should be dumped, but the opinion of John bloody Major is not one of them
I actually disagree with that. Maastricht, with its pillars, variable geometry, opt outs and subsidiarity created a place where the UK could be in the EU getting what we wanted out of it whilst not getting in the road of those who wanted more, such as the single currency. Of course we should have had a vote on it but it did offer us at least the foundations of the half way house we were looking for.
The problem was that Blair in particular, and Brown, wanted to be at the heart of Europe so they gave up some of the opt outs and put us back on the track to ever closer union, albeit at a slower pace, through Lisbon. And, of course, we still didn't get a vote on it.
If they had built on the path Major set out in Maastricht instead I think that we would still be in the EU, with the vast majority (if not all the fanatics) quite content with our half way house.
And that would also be Blair and Brown who were democratically elected to govern the UK according to their political philosophy.
Of course. But that philosophy led to a wave of animosity towards the EU, which ultimately resulted in the vote to leave.
Major is another fucking 2nd voter, like Starmer et al. Despicable piece of anti-democratic sh1t. Another British Trumpite marching on parliament to overthrow an election
"Former British prime minister John Major has called for a free vote in parliament on whether to hold a second EU referendum. He is the most senior Conservative yet to attack what he called the government’s “unrealistic” Brexit strategy.
In a speech in London that comes at the lowest point so far in the 18-month withdrawal negotiations, Major argued parliament had a duty to consider the “wellbeing of the people”, as well as the will of the people in the first referendum.
“This must be a decisive vote, in which parliament can accept or reject the final outcome; or send the negotiators back to seek improvements; or order a referendum,” he was due to say according to an advance copy of the speech. “That is what parliamentary sovereignty means.”
“No one can truly know what ‘the will of the people’ may then be. So, let parliament decide. Or put the issue back to the people,” he said."
Let him fuck off back to Huntingdonshire and his deserved obscurity. He has no credibility on anything
In what way is holding another democratic vote not democratic.
You implement the result of the first one first. An MP gets elected to parliament for 5 years - only after that period can the electors change their minds.
How many years do you reckon we should give Brexit before it's deemed to be as "implemented" as it will ever be? 5, like Parliament? 20, like the Scottish "generation"? Forever, while we wait for the illusory benefits of splendid isolation to arrive? Remainers should not be hostages indefinitely to the inability of Brexiteers to achieve the promised nirvana.
I'm not personally in favour of an early revote, and think that the most likely future is a Labour government settling for customs union/EFTA, but there is nothing in the least undemocratic about people who disagree arguing their case even 1 day after losing a vote. Democracy, innit.
I have no objection to a revote tomorrow. Today. This afternoon
Brexit is forever,,,, or it may only be for 6 years and we change our minds and we go back in. That's fine. THAT is democracy. We voted to Leave. We have left. Democracy was (belatedly) honoured. We can vote again any time we like
Goes away for 15 minutes, comes back and, yep, Leon is STILL on and on and on and on and on and on about Brexit.
Tell you what. Why don't you write a novel about it and leave us all in peace?
Major is another fucking 2nd voter, like Starmer et al. Despicable piece of anti-democratic sh1t. Another British Trumpite marching on parliament to overthrow an election
"Former British prime minister John Major has called for a free vote in parliament on whether to hold a second EU referendum. He is the most senior Conservative yet to attack what he called the government’s “unrealistic” Brexit strategy.
In a speech in London that comes at the lowest point so far in the 18-month withdrawal negotiations, Major argued parliament had a duty to consider the “wellbeing of the people”, as well as the will of the people in the first referendum.
“This must be a decisive vote, in which parliament can accept or reject the final outcome; or send the negotiators back to seek improvements; or order a referendum,” he was due to say according to an advance copy of the speech. “That is what parliamentary sovereignty means.”
“No one can truly know what ‘the will of the people’ may then be. So, let parliament decide. Or put the issue back to the people,” he said."
Let him fuck off back to Huntingdonshire and his deserved obscurity. He has no credibility on anything
Seems early for G (And no T) time.... Hmmm... It is 3pm in Sri Lanka....
I know I have a deserved reputation for drinking. but I am quite capable of losing my rag after << checks hotel room >> two cups of tea and a coffee, if needs be
And if there is one thing that enrages me, it is the people that called for the 2nd vote, without enacting the first. They wanted to cancel democracy, they should grovellingly apologise, be stripped to their vests and y-fronts and pelted with soft rancid eclairs in Leicester Square, then they should slink away from public life forever
There were people who wanted to overturn the 2019 general election because they didn't like the result:
Mere speculation, but: dodgy postal vote spike, dodgy Tory funding, Kuenssberg breaking electoral rules - what’s the chance of the election being voided, hung Parliament returning & this time getting it right: a government of national unity and a second-thoughts EU referendum?
Ah, AC Grayling, the man driven so completely mad by the decision to leave the EU, that he thinks only the good people like himself should choose the government. The plebs don’t deserve the vote, if they will keep voting the wrong way.
There is even a read made political party for such people - Optimates.
All it needs is the recognition that what they don't like is the Head Count voting on anything important. Keep the courts and the coinage. Let the rabble have the rest....
We could, I suppose, bring back the university seats. We might even extend them to the Russell Group if they play nicely.
Based on yesterday's threader, I'm not sure we should let Oxford have one.
AP Herbert was the sort of chap Oxford would elect. It might raise the tone a little.
Major is another fucking 2nd voter, like Starmer et al. Despicable piece of anti-democratic sh1t. Another British Trumpite marching on parliament to overthrow an election
"Former British prime minister John Major has called for a free vote in parliament on whether to hold a second EU referendum. He is the most senior Conservative yet to attack what he called the government’s “unrealistic” Brexit strategy.
In a speech in London that comes at the lowest point so far in the 18-month withdrawal negotiations, Major argued parliament had a duty to consider the “wellbeing of the people”, as well as the will of the people in the first referendum.
“This must be a decisive vote, in which parliament can accept or reject the final outcome; or send the negotiators back to seek improvements; or order a referendum,” he was due to say according to an advance copy of the speech. “That is what parliamentary sovereignty means.”
“No one can truly know what ‘the will of the people’ may then be. So, let parliament decide. Or put the issue back to the people,” he said."
Let him fuck off back to Huntingdonshire and his deserved obscurity. He has no credibility on anything
In what way is holding another democratic vote not democratic.
Because you have to enact the first vote before anything else, AND we were solemnly told by the prime minister and by the government - in a leaflet sent to every British household - that our say in that vote in June 2016 was FINAL. That what we chose is what would happen: REMAIN or LEAVE
There is simply no escaping this moral logic, and anyone that is still trying is adding risible absurdity to grotesque outrage
I am truly baffled how anyone is still going on about the Brexit vote.
I campaigned for Remain but I haven't spent my time since wallowing in the result.
It's so bizarre how obsessed some Brexiteers STILL are with this. What is wrong with you? Do you actually, deep down, know it was wrong or something?
Leon is the only one still obsessing about the events of 2016; most of us are more focused on the consequences for 2022 and beyond.
I suspect Leon's problem is that he woke up on Referendum Day as a Remainer, turned into a Leaver walking to the polling station, and turned back into a Remainer - and a very panicked one at that - once the result came out the next day.
After working through the stages of grief he's now settled on being a Leaver and with such a flaky record has this continual need to re-justify his polling day change of mind.
I didn't know about his capriciousness.
That does explain a lot. There's often no-one so zealous as a convert.
It's more that he made the decision on the toss of a coin, largely from ignorance, and now has this deep psychological need to keep trying and re-trying to persuade himself that his coin fell on the better side.
As an aside, I'm reading a Blackie's Boys' Annual from an indeterminate year, and the second bit is about railways (the flanging shifting from track to wheel was something I'd learnt recently from a Lindybeige video). Quite liking it so far.
Major is another fucking 2nd voter, like Starmer et al. Despicable piece of anti-democratic sh1t. Another British Trumpite marching on parliament to overthrow an election
"Former British prime minister John Major has called for a free vote in parliament on whether to hold a second EU referendum. He is the most senior Conservative yet to attack what he called the government’s “unrealistic” Brexit strategy.
In a speech in London that comes at the lowest point so far in the 18-month withdrawal negotiations, Major argued parliament had a duty to consider the “wellbeing of the people”, as well as the will of the people in the first referendum.
“This must be a decisive vote, in which parliament can accept or reject the final outcome; or send the negotiators back to seek improvements; or order a referendum,” he was due to say according to an advance copy of the speech. “That is what parliamentary sovereignty means.”
“No one can truly know what ‘the will of the people’ may then be. So, let parliament decide. Or put the issue back to the people,” he said."
Let him fuck off back to Huntingdonshire and his deserved obscurity. He has no credibility on anything
In what way is holding another democratic vote not democratic.
You implement the result of the first one first. An MP gets elected to parliament for 5 years - only after that period can the electors change their minds.
How many years do you reckon we should give Brexit before it's deemed to be as "implemented" as it will ever be? 5, like Parliament? 20, like the Scottish "generation"? Forever, while we wait for the illusory benefits of splendid isolation to arrive? Remainers should not be hostages indefinitely to the inability of Brexiteers to achieve the promised nirvana.
I'm not personally in favour of an early revote, and think that the most likely future is a Labour government settling for customs union/EFTA, but there is nothing in the least undemocratic about people who disagree arguing their case even 1 day after losing a vote. Democracy, innit.
A Rejoin referendum now would be legitimate, but fairly pointless. I'm not sure you can put an exact timeframe on when it would have a point - the Eu stopping playing silly buggers would be among the prerequisites.
Not sure what you mean by silly buggers, but I agree about pointless now. As for the future I don't think we could ever rejoin with as good a terms as we left with. I think we will lose Scotland and ni before then anyway.
Major is another fucking 2nd voter, like Starmer et al. Despicable piece of anti-democratic sh1t. Another British Trumpite marching on parliament to overthrow an election
"Former British prime minister John Major has called for a free vote in parliament on whether to hold a second EU referendum. He is the most senior Conservative yet to attack what he called the government’s “unrealistic” Brexit strategy.
In a speech in London that comes at the lowest point so far in the 18-month withdrawal negotiations, Major argued parliament had a duty to consider the “wellbeing of the people”, as well as the will of the people in the first referendum.
“This must be a decisive vote, in which parliament can accept or reject the final outcome; or send the negotiators back to seek improvements; or order a referendum,” he was due to say according to an advance copy of the speech. “That is what parliamentary sovereignty means.”
“No one can truly know what ‘the will of the people’ may then be. So, let parliament decide. Or put the issue back to the people,” he said."
Let him fuck off back to Huntingdonshire and his deserved obscurity. He has no credibility on anything
John Major was truly the king of the hypocrites.
There were no free votes or referendum on his precious Maastricht treaty.
And then there was his affair with Edwina Currie contrasted with his 'back to basics' morality drive.
I find Major an utterly repulsive figure, his canting lies about Europe are one reason we ended up where we did, as you say
There are a zillion reasons to dump Boris, and I think he should be dumped, but the opinion of John bloody Major is not one of them
I actually disagree with that. Maastricht, with its pillars, variable geometry, opt outs and subsidiarity created a place where the UK could be in the EU getting what we wanted out of it whilst not getting in the road of those who wanted more, such as the single currency. Of course we should have had a vote on it but it did offer us at least the foundations of the half way house we were looking for.
The problem was that Blair in particular, and Brown, wanted to be at the heart of Europe so they gave up some of the opt outs and put us back on the track to ever closer union, albeit at a slower pace, through Lisbon. And, of course, we still didn't get a vote on it.
If they had built on the path Major set out in Maastricht instead I think that we would still be in the EU, with the vast majority (if not all the fanatics) quite content with our half way house.
And that would also be Blair and Brown who were democratically elected to govern the UK according to their political philosophy.
Yes, but they lied because they promised us a referendum in their manifesto and then cancelled it. I know the idea that PMs before Boris lied about things, even in the Commons, may come as a bit of a shock to some of our more gentle contributors but it is, sadly, true. One even took us to war on the basis of a pack of lies created by his advisor believe it or not.
Major is another fucking 2nd voter, like Starmer et al. Despicable piece of anti-democratic sh1t. Another British Trumpite marching on parliament to overthrow an election
"Former British prime minister John Major has called for a free vote in parliament on whether to hold a second EU referendum. He is the most senior Conservative yet to attack what he called the government’s “unrealistic” Brexit strategy.
In a speech in London that comes at the lowest point so far in the 18-month withdrawal negotiations, Major argued parliament had a duty to consider the “wellbeing of the people”, as well as the will of the people in the first referendum.
“This must be a decisive vote, in which parliament can accept or reject the final outcome; or send the negotiators back to seek improvements; or order a referendum,” he was due to say according to an advance copy of the speech. “That is what parliamentary sovereignty means.”
“No one can truly know what ‘the will of the people’ may then be. So, let parliament decide. Or put the issue back to the people,” he said."
Let him fuck off back to Huntingdonshire and his deserved obscurity. He has no credibility on anything
In what way is holding another democratic vote not democratic.
Because you have to enact the first vote before anything else, AND we were solemnly told by the prime minister and by the government - in a leaflet sent to every British household - that our say in that vote in June 2016 was FINAL. That what we chose is what would happen: REMAIN or LEAVE
There is simply no escaping this moral logic, and anyone that is still trying is adding risible absurdity to grotesque outrage
You're right. It simply underlines what a catastrophic error Cameron made in his design of the whole process.
Putin has repeatedly miscalculated in Ukraine. In 2013, his pressure on President Viktor Yanukovych not to sign a free-trade agreement with the European Union led to the Maidan protests and Yanukovych’s overthrow. In 2014–15, Putin’s ambition to carve an expansive ‘Novorossiya’ from Ukraine failed in the face of local resistance and Western threats of sanctions. He has alienated President Volodymyr Zelensky, who in 2019 took office seeking a more constructive relationship. In short, he keeps making mistakes. As Talleyrand said of the Bourbons, Putin has learned nothing and forgotten nothing.
Secondly, pandemic isolation is deepening Putin’s misperceptions. Few now get face time with him, and most of those who do are from the security elite, such as Sergei Naryshkin, head of foreign intelligence
I just don't see how this VONC is going to happen now he had made it to recess.
This is something Nick P mentioned but I don't buy it.
Think like the enemy. What's the most dangerous time for Johnson? Either when he is away, or they are.
The safest time for Johnson is a) when he's showboating at PMQ's and b) when his whips can bundle recalcitrants into the broom cupboard.
When they're away, out of sight and out of control it's very dangerous for Johnson. The perfect time to strike is this Friday or next Monday: when they can't be collared.
Major is another fucking 2nd voter, like Starmer et al. Despicable piece of anti-democratic sh1t. Another British Trumpite marching on parliament to overthrow an election
"Former British prime minister John Major has called for a free vote in parliament on whether to hold a second EU referendum. He is the most senior Conservative yet to attack what he called the government’s “unrealistic” Brexit strategy.
In a speech in London that comes at the lowest point so far in the 18-month withdrawal negotiations, Major argued parliament had a duty to consider the “wellbeing of the people”, as well as the will of the people in the first referendum.
“This must be a decisive vote, in which parliament can accept or reject the final outcome; or send the negotiators back to seek improvements; or order a referendum,” he was due to say according to an advance copy of the speech. “That is what parliamentary sovereignty means.”
“No one can truly know what ‘the will of the people’ may then be. So, let parliament decide. Or put the issue back to the people,” he said."
Let him fuck off back to Huntingdonshire and his deserved obscurity. He has no credibility on anything
In what way is holding another democratic vote not democratic.
Its perfectly democratic, its just that it would also have massively damaged trust in democracy. Millions of people regarded the initial referendum as something to be respected, whether the vote went the way they wanted or not. I voted remain, the country voted out, and i expected that to be delivered.
So while its wrong to say a second vote would be undemocratic, its also true that it would have damaged trust in democracy,
Major is another fucking 2nd voter, like Starmer et al. Despicable piece of anti-democratic sh1t. Another British Trumpite marching on parliament to overthrow an election
"Former British prime minister John Major has called for a free vote in parliament on whether to hold a second EU referendum. He is the most senior Conservative yet to attack what he called the government’s “unrealistic” Brexit strategy.
In a speech in London that comes at the lowest point so far in the 18-month withdrawal negotiations, Major argued parliament had a duty to consider the “wellbeing of the people”, as well as the will of the people in the first referendum.
“This must be a decisive vote, in which parliament can accept or reject the final outcome; or send the negotiators back to seek improvements; or order a referendum,” he was due to say according to an advance copy of the speech. “That is what parliamentary sovereignty means.”
“No one can truly know what ‘the will of the people’ may then be. So, let parliament decide. Or put the issue back to the people,” he said."
Let him fuck off back to Huntingdonshire and his deserved obscurity. He has no credibility on anything
In what way is holding another democratic vote not democratic.
Because you have to enact the first vote before anything else, AND we were solemnly told by the prime minister and by the government - in a leaflet sent to every British household - that our say in that vote in June 2016 was FINAL. That what we chose is what would happen: REMAIN or LEAVE
There is simply no escaping this moral logic, and anyone that is still trying is adding risible absurdity to grotesque outrage
I am truly baffled how anyone is still going on about the Brexit vote.
I campaigned for Remain but I haven't spent my time since wallowing in the result.
It's so bizarre how obsessed some Brexiteers STILL are with this. What is wrong with you? Do you actually, deep down, know it was wrong or something?
Leon is the only one still obsessing about the events of 2016; most of us are more focused on the consequences for 2022 and beyond.
I suspect Leon's problem is that he woke up on Referendum Day as a Remainer, turned into a Leaver walking to the polling station, and turned back into a Remainer - and a very panicked one at that - once the result came out the next day.
After working through the stages of grief he's now settled on being a Leaver and with such a flaky record has this continual need to re-justify his polling day change of mind.
07:00 Awake. Too early. Hungover. Vote Leave! 08:00 Breakfast: French toast and Perrier. Let's not jeopardise this, lads. Remain! 09:00 Phone call from my publisher. Sales poor in Spain and Portugal. Leave it is! 10:00 Suddenly remember I like to travel lots and Leave is going to make that harder. Back over to Remain. 11:00 Walking to polling station. Definitely Remain. Here goes... 11:01am Ooh the pub's open. A swift G&T before voting.. 21:59pm Jusht made it into the queue to casht my vote. Leave, obvlioushly. Out out out! [vomits]
You guys go on about me even more than I go on about Brexit, GPT3, Moldovan wine, and the possibility of alien life, combined. You spend entire days psycho-analysing me; even when I am not here I often come back to find IanB2 or you or whoever has been banging on about me, AGAIN
I wonder if some of you dream about me, awake and asleep. It's a little unsettling, but, I suppose, flattering?
Major is another fucking 2nd voter, like Starmer et al. Despicable piece of anti-democratic sh1t. Another British Trumpite marching on parliament to overthrow an election
"Former British prime minister John Major has called for a free vote in parliament on whether to hold a second EU referendum. He is the most senior Conservative yet to attack what he called the government’s “unrealistic” Brexit strategy.
In a speech in London that comes at the lowest point so far in the 18-month withdrawal negotiations, Major argued parliament had a duty to consider the “wellbeing of the people”, as well as the will of the people in the first referendum.
“This must be a decisive vote, in which parliament can accept or reject the final outcome; or send the negotiators back to seek improvements; or order a referendum,” he was due to say according to an advance copy of the speech. “That is what parliamentary sovereignty means.”
“No one can truly know what ‘the will of the people’ may then be. So, let parliament decide. Or put the issue back to the people,” he said."
Let him fuck off back to Huntingdonshire and his deserved obscurity. He has no credibility on anything
In what way is holding another democratic vote not democratic.
Because you have to enact the first vote before anything else, AND we were solemnly told by the prime minister and by the government - in a leaflet sent to every British household - that our say in that vote in June 2016 was FINAL. That what we chose is what would happen: REMAIN or LEAVE
There is simply no escaping this moral logic, and anyone that is still trying is adding risible absurdity to grotesque outrage
I am truly baffled how anyone is still going on about the Brexit vote.
I campaigned for Remain but I haven't spent my time since wallowing in the result.
It's so bizarre how obsessed some Brexiteers STILL are with this. What is wrong with you? Do you actually, deep down, know it was wrong or something?
Leon is the only one still obsessing about the events of 2016; most of us are more focused on the consequences for 2022 and beyond.
I suspect Leon's problem is that he woke up on Referendum Day as a Remainer, turned into a Leaver walking to the polling station, and turned back into a Remainer - and a very panicked one at that - once the result came out the next day.
After working through the stages of grief he's now settled on being a Leaver and with such a flaky record has this continual need to re-justify his polling day change of mind.
07:00 Awake. Too early. Hungover. Vote Leave! 08:00 Breakfast: French toast and Perrier. Let's not jeopardise this, lads. Remain! 09:00 Phone call from my publisher. Sales poor in Spain and Portugal. Leave it is! 10:00 Suddenly remember I like to travel lots and Leave is going to make that harder. Back over to Remain. 11:00 Walking to polling station. Definitely Remain. Here goes... 11:01am Ooh the pub's open. A swift G&T before voting.. 21:59pm Jusht made it into the queue to casht my vote. Leave, obvlioushly. Out out out! [vomits]
You guys go on about me even more than I
Well you do post a lot, deliberately polemically and often very rudely. So if you wind people up you get what you want: me-focus.
Major is another fucking 2nd voter, like Starmer et al. Despicable piece of anti-democratic sh1t. Another British Trumpite marching on parliament to overthrow an election
"Former British prime minister John Major has called for a free vote in parliament on whether to hold a second EU referendum. He is the most senior Conservative yet to attack what he called the government’s “unrealistic” Brexit strategy.
In a speech in London that comes at the lowest point so far in the 18-month withdrawal negotiations, Major argued parliament had a duty to consider the “wellbeing of the people”, as well as the will of the people in the first referendum.
“This must be a decisive vote, in which parliament can accept or reject the final outcome; or send the negotiators back to seek improvements; or order a referendum,” he was due to say according to an advance copy of the speech. “That is what parliamentary sovereignty means.”
“No one can truly know what ‘the will of the people’ may then be. So, let parliament decide. Or put the issue back to the people,” he said."
Let him fuck off back to Huntingdonshire and his deserved obscurity. He has no credibility on anything
In what way is holding another democratic vote not democratic.
You implement the result of the first one first. An MP gets elected to parliament for 5 years - only after that period can the electors change their minds.
How many years do you reckon we should give Brexit before it's deemed to be as "implemented" as it will ever be? 5, like Parliament? 20, like the Scottish "generation"? Forever, while we wait for the illusory benefits of splendid isolation to arrive? Remainers should not be hostages indefinitely to the inability of Brexiteers to achieve the promised nirvana.
I'm not personally in favour of an early revote, and think that the most likely future is a Labour government settling for customs union/EFTA, but there is nothing in the least undemocratic about people who disagree arguing their case even 1 day after losing a vote. Democracy, innit.
In terms of the time frames you gave I think 'forever' is the answer. I can't see Brexiteers not going on about it and still blaming the EU for everything for eternity. Oh and still complaining endlessly about Remainers.
Major is another fucking 2nd voter, like Starmer et al. Despicable piece of anti-democratic sh1t. Another British Trumpite marching on parliament to overthrow an election
"Former British prime minister John Major has called for a free vote in parliament on whether to hold a second EU referendum. He is the most senior Conservative yet to attack what he called the government’s “unrealistic” Brexit strategy.
In a speech in London that comes at the lowest point so far in the 18-month withdrawal negotiations, Major argued parliament had a duty to consider the “wellbeing of the people”, as well as the will of the people in the first referendum.
“This must be a decisive vote, in which parliament can accept or reject the final outcome; or send the negotiators back to seek improvements; or order a referendum,” he was due to say according to an advance copy of the speech. “That is what parliamentary sovereignty means.”
“No one can truly know what ‘the will of the people’ may then be. So, let parliament decide. Or put the issue back to the people,” he said."
Let him fuck off back to Huntingdonshire and his deserved obscurity. He has no credibility on anything
In what way is holding another democratic vote not democratic.
Because you have to enact the first vote before anything else, AND we were solemnly told by the prime minister and by the government - in a leaflet sent to every British household - that our say in that vote in June 2016 was FINAL. That what we chose is what would happen: REMAIN or LEAVE
There is simply no escaping this moral logic, and anyone that is still trying is adding risible absurdity to grotesque outrage
I am truly baffled how anyone is still going on about the Brexit vote.
I campaigned for Remain but I haven't spent my time since wallowing in the result.
It's so bizarre how obsessed some Brexiteers STILL are with this. What is wrong with you? Do you actually, deep down, know it was wrong or something?
Leon is the only one still obsessing about the events of 2016; most of us are more focused on the consequences for 2022 and beyond.
I suspect Leon's problem is that he woke up on Referendum Day as a Remainer, turned into a Leaver walking to the polling station, and turned back into a Remainer - and a very panicked one at that - once the result came out the next day.
After working through the stages of grief he's now settled on being a Leaver and with such a flaky record has this continual need to re-justify his polling day change of mind.
07:00 Awake. Too early. Hungover. Vote Leave! 08:00 Breakfast: French toast and Perrier. Let's not jeopardise this, lads. Remain! 09:00 Phone call from my publisher. Sales poor in Spain and Portugal. Leave it is! 10:00 Suddenly remember I like to travel lots and Leave is going to make that harder. Back over to Remain. 11:00 Walking to polling station. Definitely Remain. Here goes... 11:01am Ooh the pub's open. A swift G&T before voting.. 21:59pm Jusht made it into the queue to casht my vote. Leave, obvlioushly. Out out out! [vomits]
You guys go on about me even more than I go on about Brexit, GPT3, Moldovan wine, and the possibility of alien life, combined. You spend entire days psycho-analysing me; even when I am not here I often come back to find IanB2 or you or whoever has been banging on about me, AGAIN
I wonder if some of you dream about me, awake and asleep. It's a little unsettling, but, I suppose, flattering?
I shall try to see it that way
What's so good about Moldovan Wine? Transdinestrian brandy I understand, but the wine...?
Major is another fucking 2nd voter, like Starmer et al. Despicable piece of anti-democratic sh1t. Another British Trumpite marching on parliament to overthrow an election
"Former British prime minister John Major has called for a free vote in parliament on whether to hold a second EU referendum. He is the most senior Conservative yet to attack what he called the government’s “unrealistic” Brexit strategy.
In a speech in London that comes at the lowest point so far in the 18-month withdrawal negotiations, Major argued parliament had a duty to consider the “wellbeing of the people”, as well as the will of the people in the first referendum.
“This must be a decisive vote, in which parliament can accept or reject the final outcome; or send the negotiators back to seek improvements; or order a referendum,” he was due to say according to an advance copy of the speech. “That is what parliamentary sovereignty means.”
“No one can truly know what ‘the will of the people’ may then be. So, let parliament decide. Or put the issue back to the people,” he said."
Let him fuck off back to Huntingdonshire and his deserved obscurity. He has no credibility on anything
John Major was truly the king of the hypocrites.
There were no free votes or referendum on his precious Maastricht treaty.
And then there was his affair with Edwina Currie contrasted with his 'back to basics' morality drive.
I find Major an utterly repulsive figure, his canting lies about Europe are one reason we ended up where we did, as you say
There are a zillion reasons to dump Boris, and I think he should be dumped, but the opinion of John bloody Major is not one of them
I actually disagree with that. Maastricht, with its pillars, variable geometry, opt outs and subsidiarity created a place where the UK could be in the EU getting what we wanted out of it whilst not getting in the road of those who wanted more, such as the single currency. Of course we should have had a vote on it but it did offer us at least the foundations of the half way house we were looking for.
The problem was that Blair in particular, and Brown, wanted to be at the heart of Europe so they gave up some of the opt outs and put us back on the track to ever closer union, albeit at a slower pace, through Lisbon. And, of course, we still didn't get a vote on it.
If they had built on the path Major set out in Maastricht instead I think that we would still be in the EU, with the vast majority (if not all the fanatics) quite content with our half way house.
And that would also be Blair and Brown who were democratically elected to govern the UK according to their political philosophy.
Of course. But that philosophy led to a wave of animosity towards the EU, which ultimately resulted in the vote to leave.
Absolutely. It tipped the balance. All again perfectly democratic.
"Australia’s largest pension fund to pour £23bn into UK and Europe"
Much more, per capita, is going into the UK than the EU
They are increasing UK investment by 114%, and EU investment by 122%. So a slight rebalance towards EU funds in a landscape of overall increased investment (as it says in the article, this means they are maintaining the overall level of investment in the region relative to others).
I read the same thing. Not wanting to rain on Leon's parade I thought it impolite to mention it " For those who can't be bothered to read Leon's Bullshit here's the quote from the article "
Australia’s largest pension scheme plans to invest £23bn in the UK and Europe over the next five years as it joins other global mega funds pushing further into private markets for returns.
AustralianSuper, which manages A$244bn (£128bn) on behalf of 2.5mn members, expects to more than double its UK assets from £7bn currently to more than £15bn by 2026. The superannuation fund manager is planning to increase its investment in Europe from £12.6bn to £28bn over the same period",
"Australia’s largest pension fund to pour £23bn into UK and Europe"
Much more, per capita, is going into the UK than the EU
They are increasing UK investment by 114%, and EU investment by 122%. So a slight rebalance towards EU funds in a landscape of overall increased investment (as it says in the article, this means they are maintaining the overall level of investment in the region relative to others).
I read the same thing. Not wanting to rain on Leon's parade I thought it impolite to mention it " For those who can't be bothered to read Leon's Bullshit here's the quote from the article "
Australia’s largest pension scheme plans to invest £23bn in the UK and Europe over the next five years as it joins other global mega funds pushing further into private markets for returns.
AustralianSuper, which manages A$244bn (£128bn) on behalf of 2.5mn members, expects to more than double its UK assets from £7bn currently to more than £15bn by 2026. The superannuation fund manager is planning to increase its investment in Europe from £12.6bn to £28bn over the same period",
What part of Leon's quote is "bullshit"? The figure (23bn) is right, and so is the per capita stat.
Major is another fucking 2nd voter, like Starmer et al. Despicable piece of anti-democratic sh1t. Another British Trumpite marching on parliament to overthrow an election
"Former British prime minister John Major has called for a free vote in parliament on whether to hold a second EU referendum. He is the most senior Conservative yet to attack what he called the government’s “unrealistic” Brexit strategy.
In a speech in London that comes at the lowest point so far in the 18-month withdrawal negotiations, Major argued parliament had a duty to consider the “wellbeing of the people”, as well as the will of the people in the first referendum.
“This must be a decisive vote, in which parliament can accept or reject the final outcome; or send the negotiators back to seek improvements; or order a referendum,” he was due to say according to an advance copy of the speech. “That is what parliamentary sovereignty means.”
“No one can truly know what ‘the will of the people’ may then be. So, let parliament decide. Or put the issue back to the people,” he said."
Let him fuck off back to Huntingdonshire and his deserved obscurity. He has no credibility on anything
In what way is holding another democratic vote not democratic.
You implement the result of the first one first. An MP gets elected to parliament for 5 years - only after that period can the electors change their minds.
How many years do you reckon we should give Brexit before it's deemed to be as "implemented" as it will ever be? 5, like Parliament? 20, like the Scottish "generation"? Forever, while we wait for the illusory benefits of splendid isolation to arrive? Remainers should not be hostages indefinitely to the inability of Brexiteers to achieve the promised nirvana.
I'm not personally in favour of an early revote, and think that the most likely future is a Labour government settling for customs union/EFTA, but there is nothing in the least undemocratic about people who disagree arguing their case even 1 day after losing a vote. Democracy, innit.
A Rejoin referendum now would be legitimate, but fairly pointless. I'm not sure you can put an exact timeframe on when it would have a point - the Eu stopping playing silly buggers would be among the prerequisites.
Not sure what you mean by silly buggers, but I agree about pointless now. As for the future I don't think we could ever rejoin with as good a terms as we left with. I think we will lose Scotland and ni before then anyway.
Silly buggers: for example, with Switzerland over Horizon.
"Australia’s largest pension fund to pour £23bn into UK and Europe"
Much more, per capita, is going into the UK than the EU
They are increasing UK investment by 114%, and EU investment by 122%. So a slight rebalance towards EU funds in a landscape of overall increased investment (as it says in the article, this means they are maintaining the overall level of investment in the region relative to others).
I read the same thing. Not wanting to rain on Leon's parade I thought it impolite to mention it " For those who can't be bothered to read Leon's Bullshit here's the quote from the article "
Australia’s largest pension scheme plans to invest £23bn in the UK and Europe over the next five years as it joins other global mega funds pushing further into private markets for returns.
AustralianSuper, which manages A$244bn (£128bn) on behalf of 2.5mn members, expects to more than double its UK assets from £7bn currently to more than £15bn by 2026. The superannuation fund manager is planning to increase its investment in Europe from £12.6bn to £28bn over the same period",
So the UK gets over 50% of what the whole of Europe gets. I would say that was pretty good
Major is another fucking 2nd voter, like Starmer et al. Despicable piece of anti-democratic sh1t. Another British Trumpite marching on parliament to overthrow an election
"Former British prime minister John Major has called for a free vote in parliament on whether to hold a second EU referendum. He is the most senior Conservative yet to attack what he called the government’s “unrealistic” Brexit strategy.
In a speech in London that comes at the lowest point so far in the 18-month withdrawal negotiations, Major argued parliament had a duty to consider the “wellbeing of the people”, as well as the will of the people in the first referendum.
“This must be a decisive vote, in which parliament can accept or reject the final outcome; or send the negotiators back to seek improvements; or order a referendum,” he was due to say according to an advance copy of the speech. “That is what parliamentary sovereignty means.”
“No one can truly know what ‘the will of the people’ may then be. So, let parliament decide. Or put the issue back to the people,” he said."
Let him fuck off back to Huntingdonshire and his deserved obscurity. He has no credibility on anything
In what way is holding another democratic vote not democratic.
Its perfectly democratic, its just that it would also have massively damaged trust in democracy. Millions of people regarded the initial referendum as something to be respected, whether the vote went the way they wanted or not. I voted remain, the country voted out, and i expected that to be delivered.
So while its wrong to say a second vote would be undemocratic, its also true that it would have damaged trust in democracy,
Also probably true. But you know what they say about democracy...
Major is another fucking 2nd voter, like Starmer et al. Despicable piece of anti-democratic sh1t. Another British Trumpite marching on parliament to overthrow an election
"Former British prime minister John Major has called for a free vote in parliament on whether to hold a second EU referendum. He is the most senior Conservative yet to attack what he called the government’s “unrealistic” Brexit strategy.
In a speech in London that comes at the lowest point so far in the 18-month withdrawal negotiations, Major argued parliament had a duty to consider the “wellbeing of the people”, as well as the will of the people in the first referendum.
“This must be a decisive vote, in which parliament can accept or reject the final outcome; or send the negotiators back to seek improvements; or order a referendum,” he was due to say according to an advance copy of the speech. “That is what parliamentary sovereignty means.”
“No one can truly know what ‘the will of the people’ may then be. So, let parliament decide. Or put the issue back to the people,” he said."
Let him fuck off back to Huntingdonshire and his deserved obscurity. He has no credibility on anything
John Major was truly the king of the hypocrites.
There were no free votes or referendum on his precious Maastricht treaty.
And then there was his affair with Edwina Currie contrasted with his 'back to basics' morality drive.
I find Major an utterly repulsive figure, his canting lies about Europe are one reason we ended up where we did, as you say
There are a zillion reasons to dump Boris, and I think he should be dumped, but the opinion of John bloody Major is not one of them
I actually disagree with that. Maastricht, with its pillars, variable geometry, opt outs and subsidiarity created a place where the UK could be in the EU getting what we wanted out of it whilst not getting in the road of those who wanted more, such as the single currency. Of course we should have had a vote on it but it did offer us at least the foundations of the half way house we were looking for.
The problem was that Blair in particular, and Brown, wanted to be at the heart of Europe so they gave up some of the opt outs and put us back on the track to ever closer union, albeit at a slower pace, through Lisbon. And, of course, we still didn't get a vote on it.
If they had built on the path Major set out in Maastricht instead I think that we would still be in the EU, with the vast majority (if not all the fanatics) quite content with our half way house.
And that would also be Blair and Brown who were democratically elected to govern the UK according to their political philosophy.
No-one (sane) is disputing that Brown had the legal right to do what he did. It's just that, if he wanted us to remain part of the EU, what he did was very bad strategy, because it essentially forced the electorate to demand an in-out referendum to settle the matter, and therefore he takes a large share of the blame for why we left.
I agree that if Brown had followed through, allowed the referendum on Lisbon, and then refused to sign it after we voted No by (say) 65:35, we would still be in the EU. Unless of course, the EU had found another way to enact it anyway, and then we would have also left by now, having spotted that they don't actually care what we think.
Major is another fucking 2nd voter, like Starmer et al. Despicable piece of anti-democratic sh1t. Another British Trumpite marching on parliament to overthrow an election
"Former British prime minister John Major has called for a free vote in parliament on whether to hold a second EU referendum. He is the most senior Conservative yet to attack what he called the government’s “unrealistic” Brexit strategy.
In a speech in London that comes at the lowest point so far in the 18-month withdrawal negotiations, Major argued parliament had a duty to consider the “wellbeing of the people”, as well as the will of the people in the first referendum.
“This must be a decisive vote, in which parliament can accept or reject the final outcome; or send the negotiators back to seek improvements; or order a referendum,” he was due to say according to an advance copy of the speech. “That is what parliamentary sovereignty means.”
“No one can truly know what ‘the will of the people’ may then be. So, let parliament decide. Or put the issue back to the people,” he said."
Let him fuck off back to Huntingdonshire and his deserved obscurity. He has no credibility on anything
In what way is holding another democratic vote not democratic.
Because you have to enact the first vote before anything else, AND we were solemnly told by the prime minister and by the government - in a leaflet sent to every British household - that our say in that vote in June 2016 was FINAL. That what we chose is what would happen: REMAIN or LEAVE
There is simply no escaping this moral logic, and anyone that is still trying is adding risible absurdity to grotesque outrage
I am truly baffled how anyone is still going on about the Brexit vote.
I campaigned for Remain but I haven't spent my time since wallowing in the result.
It's so bizarre how obsessed some Brexiteers STILL are with this. What is wrong with you? Do you actually, deep down, know it was wrong or something?
Leon is the only one still obsessing about the events of 2016; most of us are more focused on the consequences for 2022 and beyond.
I suspect Leon's problem is that he woke up on Referendum Day as a Remainer, turned into a Leaver walking to the polling station, and turned back into a Remainer - and a very panicked one at that - once the result came out the next day.
After working through the stages of grief he's now settled on being a Leaver and with such a flaky record has this continual need to re-justify his polling day change of mind.
07:00 Awake. Too early. Hungover. Vote Leave! 08:00 Breakfast: French toast and Perrier. Let's not jeopardise this, lads. Remain! 09:00 Phone call from my publisher. Sales poor in Spain and Portugal. Leave it is! 10:00 Suddenly remember I like to travel lots and Leave is going to make that harder. Back over to Remain. 11:00 Walking to polling station. Definitely Remain. Here goes... 11:01am Ooh the pub's open. A swift G&T before voting.. 21:59pm Jusht made it into the queue to casht my vote. Leave, obvlioushly. Out out out! [vomits]
You guys go on about me even more than I go on about Brexit, GPT3, Moldovan wine, and the possibility of alien life, combined. You spend entire days psycho-analysing me; even when I am not here I often come back to find IanB2 or you or whoever has been banging on about me, AGAIN
I wonder if some of you dream about me, awake and asleep. It's a little unsettling, but, I suppose, flattering?
I shall try to see it that way
You'll certainly find that a more rewarding conclusion than realising that you're the regimental twat.
Major is another fucking 2nd voter, like Starmer et al. Despicable piece of anti-democratic sh1t. Another British Trumpite marching on parliament to overthrow an election
"Former British prime minister John Major has called for a free vote in parliament on whether to hold a second EU referendum. He is the most senior Conservative yet to attack what he called the government’s “unrealistic” Brexit strategy.
In a speech in London that comes at the lowest point so far in the 18-month withdrawal negotiations, Major argued parliament had a duty to consider the “wellbeing of the people”, as well as the will of the people in the first referendum.
“This must be a decisive vote, in which parliament can accept or reject the final outcome; or send the negotiators back to seek improvements; or order a referendum,” he was due to say according to an advance copy of the speech. “That is what parliamentary sovereignty means.”
“No one can truly know what ‘the will of the people’ may then be. So, let parliament decide. Or put the issue back to the people,” he said."
Let him fuck off back to Huntingdonshire and his deserved obscurity. He has no credibility on anything
In what way is holding another democratic vote not democratic.
Because you have to enact the first vote before anything else, AND we were solemnly told by the prime minister and by the government - in a leaflet sent to every British household - that our say in that vote in June 2016 was FINAL. That what we chose is what would happen: REMAIN or LEAVE
There is simply no escaping this moral logic, and anyone that is still trying is adding risible absurdity to grotesque outrage
I am truly baffled how anyone is still going on about the Brexit vote.
I campaigned for Remain but I haven't spent my time since wallowing in the result.
It's so bizarre how obsessed some Brexiteers STILL are with this. What is wrong with you? Do you actually, deep down, know it was wrong or something?
Leon is the only one still obsessing about the events of 2016; most of us are more focused on the consequences for 2022 and beyond.
I suspect Leon's problem is that he woke up on Referendum Day as a Remainer, turned into a Leaver walking to the polling station, and turned back into a Remainer - and a very panicked one at that - once the result came out the next day.
After working through the stages of grief he's now settled on being a Leaver and with such a flaky record has this continual need to re-justify his polling day change of mind.
07:00 Awake. Too early. Hungover. Vote Leave! 08:00 Breakfast: French toast and Perrier. Let's not jeopardise this, lads. Remain! 09:00 Phone call from my publisher. Sales poor in Spain and Portugal. Leave it is! 10:00 Suddenly remember I like to travel lots and Leave is going to make that harder. Back over to Remain. 11:00 Walking to polling station. Definitely Remain. Here goes... 11:01am Ooh the pub's open. A swift G&T before voting.. 21:59pm Jusht made it into the queue to casht my vote. Leave, obvlioushly. Out out out! [vomits]
You guys go on about me even more than I go on about Brexit, GPT3, Moldovan wine, and the possibility of alien life, combined. You spend entire days psycho-analysing me; even when I am not here I often come back to find IanB2 or you or whoever has been banging on about me, AGAIN
I wonder if some of you dream about me, awake and asleep. It's a little unsettling, but, I suppose, flattering?
I shall try to see it that way
What's so good about Moldovan Wine? Transdinestrian brandy I understand, but the wine...?
Moldovan wine is some of the best, in terms of quality for the price. You can get a really good bottle for a fiver (plus local taxes), it’s very popular in Asia, where it usually comes in at a fraction of the price of something similar from France or Spain.
Major is another fucking 2nd voter, like Starmer et al. Despicable piece of anti-democratic sh1t. Another British Trumpite marching on parliament to overthrow an election
"Former British prime minister John Major has called for a free vote in parliament on whether to hold a second EU referendum. He is the most senior Conservative yet to attack what he called the government’s “unrealistic” Brexit strategy.
In a speech in London that comes at the lowest point so far in the 18-month withdrawal negotiations, Major argued parliament had a duty to consider the “wellbeing of the people”, as well as the will of the people in the first referendum.
“This must be a decisive vote, in which parliament can accept or reject the final outcome; or send the negotiators back to seek improvements; or order a referendum,” he was due to say according to an advance copy of the speech. “That is what parliamentary sovereignty means.”
“No one can truly know what ‘the will of the people’ may then be. So, let parliament decide. Or put the issue back to the people,” he said."
Let him fuck off back to Huntingdonshire and his deserved obscurity. He has no credibility on anything
John Major was truly the king of the hypocrites.
There were no free votes or referendum on his precious Maastricht treaty.
And then there was his affair with Edwina Currie contrasted with his 'back to basics' morality drive.
I find Major an utterly repulsive figure, his canting lies about Europe are one reason we ended up where we did, as you say
There are a zillion reasons to dump Boris, and I think he should be dumped, but the opinion of John bloody Major is not one of them
I actually disagree with that. Maastricht, with its pillars, variable geometry, opt outs and subsidiarity created a place where the UK could be in the EU getting what we wanted out of it whilst not getting in the road of those who wanted more, such as the single currency. Of course we should have had a vote on it but it did offer us at least the foundations of the half way house we were looking for.
The problem was that Blair in particular, and Brown, wanted to be at the heart of Europe so they gave up some of the opt outs and put us back on the track to ever closer union, albeit at a slower pace, through Lisbon. And, of course, we still didn't get a vote on it.
If they had built on the path Major set out in Maastricht instead I think that we would still be in the EU, with the vast majority (if not all the fanatics) quite content with our half way house.
The problem being that the variable geometry turned out only to be varying speeds of EverCloserUnion with no scope to reverse anything.
Even the opt-out from the single currency was suspected of being only for show and that ERM membership would inevitably lead to joining the single currency.
I’m still amazed about the number of posts that refer to Brexit. Brexit got done! What we should be discussing is the arsey way it’s being implemented.
Major is another fucking 2nd voter, like Starmer et al. Despicable piece of anti-democratic sh1t. Another British Trumpite marching on parliament to overthrow an election
"Former British prime minister John Major has called for a free vote in parliament on whether to hold a second EU referendum. He is the most senior Conservative yet to attack what he called the government’s “unrealistic” Brexit strategy.
In a speech in London that comes at the lowest point so far in the 18-month withdrawal negotiations, Major argued parliament had a duty to consider the “wellbeing of the people”, as well as the will of the people in the first referendum.
“This must be a decisive vote, in which parliament can accept or reject the final outcome; or send the negotiators back to seek improvements; or order a referendum,” he was due to say according to an advance copy of the speech. “That is what parliamentary sovereignty means.”
“No one can truly know what ‘the will of the people’ may then be. So, let parliament decide. Or put the issue back to the people,” he said."
Let him fuck off back to Huntingdonshire and his deserved obscurity. He has no credibility on anything
In what way is holding another democratic vote not democratic.
Because you have to enact the first vote before anything else, AND we were solemnly told by the prime minister and by the government - in a leaflet sent to every British household - that our say in that vote in June 2016 was FINAL. That what we chose is what would happen: REMAIN or LEAVE
There is simply no escaping this moral logic, and anyone that is still trying is adding risible absurdity to grotesque outrage
I am truly baffled how anyone is still going on about the Brexit vote.
I campaigned for Remain but I haven't spent my time since wallowing in the result.
It's so bizarre how obsessed some Brexiteers STILL are with this. What is wrong with you? Do you actually, deep down, know it was wrong or something?
Leon is the only one still obsessing about the events of 2016; most of us are more focused on the consequences for 2022 and beyond.
I suspect Leon's problem is that he woke up on Referendum Day as a Remainer, turned into a Leaver walking to the polling station, and turned back into a Remainer - and a very panicked one at that - once the result came out the next day.
After working through the stages of grief he's now settled on being a Leaver and with such a flaky record has this continual need to re-justify his polling day change of mind.
07:00 Awake. Too early. Hungover. Vote Leave! 08:00 Breakfast: French toast and Perrier. Let's not jeopardise this, lads. Remain! 09:00 Phone call from my publisher. Sales poor in Spain and Portugal. Leave it is! 10:00 Suddenly remember I like to travel lots and Leave is going to make that harder. Back over to Remain. 11:00 Walking to polling station. Definitely Remain. Here goes... 11:01am Ooh the pub's open. A swift G&T before voting.. 21:59pm Jusht made it into the queue to casht my vote. Leave, obvlioushly. Out out out! [vomits]
You guys go on about me even more than I go on about Brexit, GPT3, Moldovan wine, and the possibility of alien life, combined. You spend entire days psycho-analysing me; even when I am not here I often come back to find IanB2 or you or whoever has been banging on about me, AGAIN
I wonder if some of you dream about me, awake and asleep. It's a little unsettling, but, I suppose, flattering?
I shall try to see it that way
As you so regularly do, let's take a ridiculous sample to look at that:
You: 15,000 posts in 2 months Me: 5,000 posts in 6 years
And tht of course is not counting your other personas.
I just don't see how this VONC is going to happen now he had made it to recess.
The argument after half term will be be it is too close to local elections and on we go.
He staggers through to early summer.
So post-May elections still seems the crunch to me.
It would be folly to sent in 54 letters if they can't muster 185 votes of no confidence. If 185 were available, why are 54 so difficult? The foreseeable problem is what to do about Johnson after the deed is done. He needs to be comprehensively discredited or he will become a life-long PITA. This would be the modern equivalent of summary execution awaiting those who fell from power in the distant past. The threat of revanchism was always uppermost in the victor's mind.
"Australia’s largest pension fund to pour £23bn into UK and Europe"
Much more, per capita, is going into the UK than the EU
They are increasing UK investment by 114%, and EU investment by 122%. So a slight rebalance towards EU funds in a landscape of overall increased investment (as it says in the article, this means they are maintaining the overall level of investment in the region relative to others).
I read the same thing. Not wanting to rain on Leon's parade I thought it impolite to mention it " For those who can't be bothered to read Leon's Bullshit here's the quote from the article "
Australia’s largest pension scheme plans to invest £23bn in the UK and Europe over the next five years as it joins other global mega funds pushing further into private markets for returns.
AustralianSuper, which manages A$244bn (£128bn) on behalf of 2.5mn members, expects to more than double its UK assets from £7bn currently to more than £15bn by 2026. The superannuation fund manager is planning to increase its investment in Europe from £12.6bn to £28bn over the same period",
What part of Leon's quote is "bullshit"? The figure (23bn) is right, and so is the per capita stat.
He implied the UK benefited more than 'Europe' because of Brexit.
Major is another fucking 2nd voter, like Starmer et al. Despicable piece of anti-democratic sh1t. Another British Trumpite marching on parliament to overthrow an election
"Former British prime minister John Major has called for a free vote in parliament on whether to hold a second EU referendum. He is the most senior Conservative yet to attack what he called the government’s “unrealistic” Brexit strategy.
In a speech in London that comes at the lowest point so far in the 18-month withdrawal negotiations, Major argued parliament had a duty to consider the “wellbeing of the people”, as well as the will of the people in the first referendum.
“This must be a decisive vote, in which parliament can accept or reject the final outcome; or send the negotiators back to seek improvements; or order a referendum,” he was due to say according to an advance copy of the speech. “That is what parliamentary sovereignty means.”
“No one can truly know what ‘the will of the people’ may then be. So, let parliament decide. Or put the issue back to the people,” he said."
Let him fuck off back to Huntingdonshire and his deserved obscurity. He has no credibility on anything
In what way is holding another democratic vote not democratic.
Because you have to enact the first vote before anything else, AND we were solemnly told by the prime minister and by the government - in a leaflet sent to every British household - that our say in that vote in June 2016 was FINAL. That what we chose is what would happen: REMAIN or LEAVE
There is simply no escaping this moral logic, and anyone that is still trying is adding risible absurdity to grotesque outrage
You're right. It simply underlines what a catastrophic error Cameron made in his design of the whole process.
It was only an error because he thought he had guaranteed a Remain win.
Major is another fucking 2nd voter, like Starmer et al. Despicable piece of anti-democratic sh1t. Another British Trumpite marching on parliament to overthrow an election
"Former British prime minister John Major has called for a free vote in parliament on whether to hold a second EU referendum. He is the most senior Conservative yet to attack what he called the government’s “unrealistic” Brexit strategy.
In a speech in London that comes at the lowest point so far in the 18-month withdrawal negotiations, Major argued parliament had a duty to consider the “wellbeing of the people”, as well as the will of the people in the first referendum.
“This must be a decisive vote, in which parliament can accept or reject the final outcome; or send the negotiators back to seek improvements; or order a referendum,” he was due to say according to an advance copy of the speech. “That is what parliamentary sovereignty means.”
“No one can truly know what ‘the will of the people’ may then be. So, let parliament decide. Or put the issue back to the people,” he said."
Let him fuck off back to Huntingdonshire and his deserved obscurity. He has no credibility on anything
In what way is holding another democratic vote not democratic.
Because you have to enact the first vote before anything else, AND we were solemnly told by the prime minister and by the government - in a leaflet sent to every British household - that our say in that vote in June 2016 was FINAL. That what we chose is what would happen: REMAIN or LEAVE
There is simply no escaping this moral logic, and anyone that is still trying is adding risible absurdity to grotesque outrage
I am truly baffled how anyone is still going on about the Brexit vote.
I campaigned for Remain but I haven't spent my time since wallowing in the result.
It's so bizarre how obsessed some Brexiteers STILL are with this. What is wrong with you? Do you actually, deep down, know it was wrong or something?
Leon is the only one still obsessing about the events of 2016; most of us are more focused on the consequences for 2022 and beyond.
I suspect Leon's problem is that he woke up on Referendum Day as a Remainer, turned into a Leaver walking to the polling station, and turned back into a Remainer - and a very panicked one at that - once the result came out the next day.
After working through the stages of grief he's now settled on being a Leaver and with such a flaky record has this continual need to re-justify his polling day change of mind.
07:00 Awake. Too early. Hungover. Vote Leave! 08:00 Breakfast: French toast and Perrier. Let's not jeopardise this, lads. Remain! 09:00 Phone call from my publisher. Sales poor in Spain and Portugal. Leave it is! 10:00 Suddenly remember I like to travel lots and Leave is going to make that harder. Back over to Remain. 11:00 Walking to polling station. Definitely Remain. Here goes... 11:01am Ooh the pub's open. A swift G&T before voting.. 21:59pm Jusht made it into the queue to casht my vote. Leave, obvlioushly. Out out out! [vomits]
You guys go on about me even more than I go on about Brexit, GPT3, Moldovan wine, and the possibility of alien life, combined. You spend entire days psycho-analysing me; even when I am not here I often come back to find IanB2 or you or whoever has been banging on about me, AGAIN
I wonder if some of you dream about me, awake and asleep. It's a little unsettling, but, I suppose, flattering?
I shall try to see it that way
What's so good about Moldovan Wine? Transdinestrian brandy I understand, but the wine...?
It's REALLY good value. It was historically one of the great wine growing areas of Europe, then it kinda disappeared, now it is enjoying a fine renaissance
Major is another fucking 2nd voter, like Starmer et al. Despicable piece of anti-democratic sh1t. Another British Trumpite marching on parliament to overthrow an election
"Former British prime minister John Major has called for a free vote in parliament on whether to hold a second EU referendum. He is the most senior Conservative yet to attack what he called the government’s “unrealistic” Brexit strategy.
In a speech in London that comes at the lowest point so far in the 18-month withdrawal negotiations, Major argued parliament had a duty to consider the “wellbeing of the people”, as well as the will of the people in the first referendum.
“This must be a decisive vote, in which parliament can accept or reject the final outcome; or send the negotiators back to seek improvements; or order a referendum,” he was due to say according to an advance copy of the speech. “That is what parliamentary sovereignty means.”
“No one can truly know what ‘the will of the people’ may then be. So, let parliament decide. Or put the issue back to the people,” he said."
Let him fuck off back to Huntingdonshire and his deserved obscurity. He has no credibility on anything
Seems early for G (And no T) time.... Hmmm... It is 3pm in Sri Lanka....
I know I have a deserved reputation for drinking. but I am quite capable of losing my rag after << checks hotel room >> two cups of tea and a coffee, if needs be
And if there is one thing that enrages me, it is the people that called for the 2nd vote, without enacting the first. They wanted to cancel democracy, they should grovellingly apologise, be stripped to their vests and y-fronts and pelted with soft rancid eclairs in Leicester Square, then they should slink away from public life forever
There were people who wanted to overturn the 2019 general election because they didn't like the result:
Mere speculation, but: dodgy postal vote spike, dodgy Tory funding, Kuenssberg breaking electoral rules - what’s the chance of the election being voided, hung Parliament returning & this time getting it right: a government of national unity and a second-thoughts EU referendum?
Ah, AC Grayling, the man driven so completely mad by the decision to leave the EU, that he thinks only the good people like himself should choose the government. The plebs don’t deserve the vote, if they will keep voting the wrong way.
There is even a read made political party for such people - Optimates.
All it needs is the recognition that what they don't like is the Head Count voting on anything important. Keep the courts and the coinage. Let the rabble have the rest....
We could, I suppose, bring back the university seats. We might even extend them to the Russell Group if they play nicely.
You'll get slung out of the Optimates for thinking like that. Votes for commoners at the Universities? - smells of the lamp, rather. Not getting a bit Gracchi are you?
Major is another fucking 2nd voter, like Starmer et al. Despicable piece of anti-democratic sh1t. Another British Trumpite marching on parliament to overthrow an election
"Former British prime minister John Major has called for a free vote in parliament on whether to hold a second EU referendum. He is the most senior Conservative yet to attack what he called the government’s “unrealistic” Brexit strategy.
In a speech in London that comes at the lowest point so far in the 18-month withdrawal negotiations, Major argued parliament had a duty to consider the “wellbeing of the people”, as well as the will of the people in the first referendum.
“This must be a decisive vote, in which parliament can accept or reject the final outcome; or send the negotiators back to seek improvements; or order a referendum,” he was due to say according to an advance copy of the speech. “That is what parliamentary sovereignty means.”
“No one can truly know what ‘the will of the people’ may then be. So, let parliament decide. Or put the issue back to the people,” he said."
Let him fuck off back to Huntingdonshire and his deserved obscurity. He has no credibility on anything
In what way is holding another democratic vote not democratic.
You implement the result of the first one first. An MP gets elected to parliament for 5 years - only after that period can the electors change their minds.
How many years do you reckon we should give Brexit before it's deemed to be as "implemented" as it will ever be? 5, like Parliament? 20, like the Scottish "generation"? Forever, while we wait for the illusory benefits of splendid isolation to arrive? Remainers should not be hostages indefinitely to the inability of Brexiteers to achieve the promised nirvana.
I'm not personally in favour of an early revote, and think that the most likely future is a Labour government settling for customs union/EFTA, but there is nothing in the least undemocratic about people who disagree arguing their case even 1 day after losing a vote. Democracy, innit.
A Rejoin referendum now would be legitimate, but fairly pointless. I'm not sure you can put an exact timeframe on when it would have a point - the Eu stopping playing silly buggers would be among the prerequisites.
Well I think the EU would be entitled to ask us to stop playing silly buggers before they do, but none of this is going to happen.
There's not going to be a second referendum any time soon. The terms of rejoining would clearly be worse than those we relinquished. That would be an impossible sell.
Indeed. That's why the unreconciled federalists fought so hard to overturn the 2016 referendum - they knew how difficult Rejoin would be once we were out.
"Australia’s largest pension fund to pour £23bn into UK and Europe"
Much more, per capita, is going into the UK than the EU
They are increasing UK investment by 114%, and EU investment by 122%. So a slight rebalance towards EU funds in a landscape of overall increased investment (as it says in the article, this means they are maintaining the overall level of investment in the region relative to others).
I read the same thing. Not wanting to rain on Leon's parade I thought it impolite to mention it " For those who can't be bothered to read Leon's Bullshit here's the quote from the article "
Australia’s largest pension scheme plans to invest £23bn in the UK and Europe over the next five years as it joins other global mega funds pushing further into private markets for returns.
AustralianSuper, which manages A$244bn (£128bn) on behalf of 2.5mn members, expects to more than double its UK assets from £7bn currently to more than £15bn by 2026. The superannuation fund manager is planning to increase its investment in Europe from £12.6bn to £28bn over the same period",
What part of Leon's quote is "bullshit"? The figure (23bn) is right, and so is the per capita stat.
He implied the UK benefited more than 'Europe' because of Brexit.
But it does, on a per capita basis? The "because of Brexit" is just cheeky, used for any seemingly positive story these days (or despite Brexit...).
Also why is Europe in quotes, he didn't even say that word.
Major is another fucking 2nd voter, like Starmer et al. Despicable piece of anti-democratic sh1t. Another British Trumpite marching on parliament to overthrow an election
"Former British prime minister John Major has called for a free vote in parliament on whether to hold a second EU referendum. He is the most senior Conservative yet to attack what he called the government’s “unrealistic” Brexit strategy.
In a speech in London that comes at the lowest point so far in the 18-month withdrawal negotiations, Major argued parliament had a duty to consider the “wellbeing of the people”, as well as the will of the people in the first referendum.
“This must be a decisive vote, in which parliament can accept or reject the final outcome; or send the negotiators back to seek improvements; or order a referendum,” he was due to say according to an advance copy of the speech. “That is what parliamentary sovereignty means.”
“No one can truly know what ‘the will of the people’ may then be. So, let parliament decide. Or put the issue back to the people,” he said."
Let him fuck off back to Huntingdonshire and his deserved obscurity. He has no credibility on anything
In what way is holding another democratic vote not democratic.
You implement the result of the first one first. An MP gets elected to parliament for 5 years - only after that period can the electors change their minds.
How many years do you reckon we should give Brexit before it's deemed to be as "implemented" as it will ever be? 5, like Parliament? 20, like the Scottish "generation"? Forever, while we wait for the illusory benefits of splendid isolation to arrive? Remainers should not be hostages indefinitely to the inability of Brexiteers to achieve the promised nirvana.
I'm not personally in favour of an early revote, and think that the most likely future is a Labour government settling for customs union/EFTA, but there is nothing in the least undemocratic about people who disagree arguing their case even 1 day after losing a vote. Democracy, innit.
A Rejoin referendum now would be legitimate, but fairly pointless. I'm not sure you can put an exact timeframe on when it would have a point - the Eu stopping playing silly buggers would be among the prerequisites.
Well I think the EU would be entitled to ask us to stop playing silly buggers before they do, but none of this is going to happen.
There's not going to be a second referendum any time soon. The terms of rejoining would clearly be worse than those we relinquished. That would be an impossible sell.
Indeed. That's why the unreconciled federalists fought so hard to overturn the 2016 referendum - they knew how difficult Rejoin would be once we were out.
Major is another fucking 2nd voter, like Starmer et al. Despicable piece of anti-democratic sh1t. Another British Trumpite marching on parliament to overthrow an election
"Former British prime minister John Major has called for a free vote in parliament on whether to hold a second EU referendum. He is the most senior Conservative yet to attack what he called the government’s “unrealistic” Brexit strategy.
In a speech in London that comes at the lowest point so far in the 18-month withdrawal negotiations, Major argued parliament had a duty to consider the “wellbeing of the people”, as well as the will of the people in the first referendum.
“This must be a decisive vote, in which parliament can accept or reject the final outcome; or send the negotiators back to seek improvements; or order a referendum,” he was due to say according to an advance copy of the speech. “That is what parliamentary sovereignty means.”
“No one can truly know what ‘the will of the people’ may then be. So, let parliament decide. Or put the issue back to the people,” he said."
Let him fuck off back to Huntingdonshire and his deserved obscurity. He has no credibility on anything
Seems early for G (And no T) time.... Hmmm... It is 3pm in Sri Lanka....
I know I have a deserved reputation for drinking. but I am quite capable of losing my rag after << checks hotel room >> two cups of tea and a coffee, if needs be
And if there is one thing that enrages me, it is the people that called for the 2nd vote, without enacting the first. They wanted to cancel democracy, they should grovellingly apologise, be stripped to their vests and y-fronts and pelted with soft rancid eclairs in Leicester Square, then they should slink away from public life forever
There were people who wanted to overturn the 2019 general election because they didn't like the result:
Mere speculation, but: dodgy postal vote spike, dodgy Tory funding, Kuenssberg breaking electoral rules - what’s the chance of the election being voided, hung Parliament returning & this time getting it right: a government of national unity and a second-thoughts EU referendum?
Ah, AC Grayling, the man driven so completely mad by the decision to leave the EU, that he thinks only the good people like himself should choose the government. The plebs don’t deserve the vote, if they will keep voting the wrong way.
There is even a read made political party for such people - Optimates.
All it needs is the recognition that what they don't like is the Head Count voting on anything important. Keep the courts and the coinage. Let the rabble have the rest....
We could, I suppose, bring back the university seats. We might even extend them to the Russell Group if they play nicely.
You'll get slung out of the Optimates for thinking like that. Votes for commoners at the Universities? - smells of the lamp, rather. Not getting a bit Gracchi are you?
I thought it was only MAs who voted? Twelve guineas well spent, imho. Still, we'll always have poetry.
Major is another fucking 2nd voter, like Starmer et al. Despicable piece of anti-democratic sh1t. Another British Trumpite marching on parliament to overthrow an election
"Former British prime minister John Major has called for a free vote in parliament on whether to hold a second EU referendum. He is the most senior Conservative yet to attack what he called the government’s “unrealistic” Brexit strategy.
In a speech in London that comes at the lowest point so far in the 18-month withdrawal negotiations, Major argued parliament had a duty to consider the “wellbeing of the people”, as well as the will of the people in the first referendum.
“This must be a decisive vote, in which parliament can accept or reject the final outcome; or send the negotiators back to seek improvements; or order a referendum,” he was due to say according to an advance copy of the speech. “That is what parliamentary sovereignty means.”
“No one can truly know what ‘the will of the people’ may then be. So, let parliament decide. Or put the issue back to the people,” he said."
Let him fuck off back to Huntingdonshire and his deserved obscurity. He has no credibility on anything
In what way is holding another democratic vote not democratic.
Because you have to enact the first vote before anything else, AND we were solemnly told by the prime minister and by the government - in a leaflet sent to every British household - that our say in that vote in June 2016 was FINAL. That what we chose is what would happen: REMAIN or LEAVE
There is simply no escaping this moral logic, and anyone that is still trying is adding risible absurdity to grotesque outrage
You're right. It simply underlines what a catastrophic error Cameron made in his design of the whole process.
It was only an error because he thought he had guaranteed a Remain win.
It wasn't an error at all. It resulted in a Leave win that is how democracy works. He had to offer the referendum in the terms he announced otherwise he would have lost the GE without the Kippers.
Can I really believe I am having this discussion six years after the vote.
Major is another fucking 2nd voter, like Starmer et al. Despicable piece of anti-democratic sh1t. Another British Trumpite marching on parliament to overthrow an election
"Former British prime minister John Major has called for a free vote in parliament on whether to hold a second EU referendum. He is the most senior Conservative yet to attack what he called the government’s “unrealistic” Brexit strategy.
In a speech in London that comes at the lowest point so far in the 18-month withdrawal negotiations, Major argued parliament had a duty to consider the “wellbeing of the people”, as well as the will of the people in the first referendum.
“This must be a decisive vote, in which parliament can accept or reject the final outcome; or send the negotiators back to seek improvements; or order a referendum,” he was due to say according to an advance copy of the speech. “That is what parliamentary sovereignty means.”
“No one can truly know what ‘the will of the people’ may then be. So, let parliament decide. Or put the issue back to the people,” he said."
Let him fuck off back to Huntingdonshire and his deserved obscurity. He has no credibility on anything
Seems early for G (And no T) time.... Hmmm... It is 3pm in Sri Lanka....
I know I have a deserved reputation for drinking. but I am quite capable of losing my rag after << checks hotel room >> two cups of tea and a coffee, if needs be
And if there is one thing that enrages me, it is the people that called for the 2nd vote, without enacting the first. They wanted to cancel democracy, they should grovellingly apologise, be stripped to their vests and y-fronts and pelted with soft rancid eclairs in Leicester Square, then they should slink away from public life forever
There were people who wanted to overturn the 2019 general election because they didn't like the result:
Mere speculation, but: dodgy postal vote spike, dodgy Tory funding, Kuenssberg breaking electoral rules - what’s the chance of the election being voided, hung Parliament returning & this time getting it right: a government of national unity and a second-thoughts EU referendum?
Ah, AC Grayling, the man driven so completely mad by the decision to leave the EU, that he thinks only the good people like himself should choose the government. The plebs don’t deserve the vote, if they will keep voting the wrong way.
There is even a read made political party for such people - Optimates.
All it needs is the recognition that what they don't like is the Head Count voting on anything important. Keep the courts and the coinage. Let the rabble have the rest....
We could, I suppose, bring back the university seats. We might even extend them to the Russell Group if they play nicely.
You'll get slung out of the Optimates for thinking like that. Votes for commoners at the Universities? - smells of the lamp, rather. Not getting a bit Gracchi are you?
I thought it was only MAs who voted? Twelve guineas well spent, imho. Still, we'll always have poetry.
You'd still end up with votes for people who are just studying to become vicars. You might invite them to your more "democratic" kind of garden party, but they are not the thing, really, are they?
"Australia’s largest pension fund to pour £23bn into UK and Europe"
Much more, per capita, is going into the UK than the EU
They are increasing UK investment by 114%, and EU investment by 122%. So a slight rebalance towards EU funds in a landscape of overall increased investment (as it says in the article, this means they are maintaining the overall level of investment in the region relative to others).
I read the same thing. Not wanting to rain on Leon's parade I thought it impolite to mention it " For those who can't be bothered to read Leon's Bullshit here's the quote from the article "
Australia’s largest pension scheme plans to invest £23bn in the UK and Europe over the next five years as it joins other global mega funds pushing further into private markets for returns.
AustralianSuper, which manages A$244bn (£128bn) on behalf of 2.5mn members, expects to more than double its UK assets from £7bn currently to more than £15bn by 2026. The superannuation fund manager is planning to increase its investment in Europe from £12.6bn to £28bn over the same period",
So the UK gets over 50% of what the whole of Europe gets. I would say that was pretty good
It's not good or not good. IT'S SAD! This country where once the sun never set is now scrabbling around to see if an Australian pension fund invested more money into the UK than Europe
"Australia’s largest pension fund to pour £23bn into UK and Europe"
Much more, per capita, is going into the UK than the EU
They are increasing UK investment by 114%, and EU investment by 122%. So a slight rebalance towards EU funds in a landscape of overall increased investment (as it says in the article, this means they are maintaining the overall level of investment in the region relative to others).
I read the same thing. Not wanting to rain on Leon's parade I thought it impolite to mention it " For those who can't be bothered to read Leon's Bullshit here's the quote from the article "
Australia’s largest pension scheme plans to invest £23bn in the UK and Europe over the next five years as it joins other global mega funds pushing further into private markets for returns.
AustralianSuper, which manages A$244bn (£128bn) on behalf of 2.5mn members, expects to more than double its UK assets from £7bn currently to more than £15bn by 2026. The superannuation fund manager is planning to increase its investment in Europe from £12.6bn to £28bn over the same period",
What part of Leon's quote is "bullshit"? The figure (23bn) is right, and so is the per capita stat.
The "bullshit" is using a meaningless statistic ("per capita" - a measure that has no sense in this context), to try to shoe-horn in a point, when the announcement shows that they are marginally rebalancing their *existing* investment *away* from the UK to the EU (a tiny amouint) while increasing the overall level of investment in both.
Major is another fucking 2nd voter, like Starmer et al. Despicable piece of anti-democratic sh1t. Another British Trumpite marching on parliament to overthrow an election
"Former British prime minister John Major has called for a free vote in parliament on whether to hold a second EU referendum. He is the most senior Conservative yet to attack what he called the government’s “unrealistic” Brexit strategy.
In a speech in London that comes at the lowest point so far in the 18-month withdrawal negotiations, Major argued parliament had a duty to consider the “wellbeing of the people”, as well as the will of the people in the first referendum.
“This must be a decisive vote, in which parliament can accept or reject the final outcome; or send the negotiators back to seek improvements; or order a referendum,” he was due to say according to an advance copy of the speech. “That is what parliamentary sovereignty means.”
“No one can truly know what ‘the will of the people’ may then be. So, let parliament decide. Or put the issue back to the people,” he said."
Let him fuck off back to Huntingdonshire and his deserved obscurity. He has no credibility on anything
In what way is holding another democratic vote not democratic.
Because you have to enact the first vote before anything else, AND we were solemnly told by the prime minister and by the government - in a leaflet sent to every British household - that our say in that vote in June 2016 was FINAL. That what we chose is what would happen: REMAIN or LEAVE
There is simply no escaping this moral logic, and anyone that is still trying is adding risible absurdity to grotesque outrage
I am truly baffled how anyone is still going on about the Brexit vote.
I campaigned for Remain but I haven't spent my time since wallowing in the result.
It's so bizarre how obsessed some Brexiteers STILL are with this. What is wrong with you? Do you actually, deep down, know it was wrong or something?
Leon is the only one still obsessing about the events of 2016; most of us are more focused on the consequences for 2022 and beyond.
I suspect Leon's problem is that he woke up on Referendum Day as a Remainer, turned into a Leaver walking to the polling station, and turned back into a Remainer - and a very panicked one at that - once the result came out the next day.
After working through the stages of grief he's now settled on being a Leaver and with such a flaky record has this continual need to re-justify his polling day change of mind.
07:00 Awake. Too early. Hungover. Vote Leave! 08:00 Breakfast: French toast and Perrier. Let's not jeopardise this, lads. Remain! 09:00 Phone call from my publisher. Sales poor in Spain and Portugal. Leave it is! 10:00 Suddenly remember I like to travel lots and Leave is going to make that harder. Back over to Remain. 11:00 Walking to polling station. Definitely Remain. Here goes... 11:01am Ooh the pub's open. A swift G&T before voting.. 21:59pm Jusht made it into the queue to casht my vote. Leave, obvlioushly. Out out out! [vomits]
You guys go on about me even more than I go on about Brexit, GPT3, Moldovan wine, and the possibility of alien life, combined. You spend entire days psycho-analysing me; even when I am not here I often come back to find IanB2 or you or whoever has been banging on about me, AGAIN
I wonder if some of you dream about me, awake and asleep. It's a little unsettling, but, I suppose, flattering?
I shall try to see it that way
What's so good about Moldovan Wine? Transdinestrian brandy I understand, but the wine...?
Moldovan wine is some of the best, in terms of quality for the price. You can get a really good bottle for a fiver (plus local taxes), it’s very popular in Asia, where it usually comes in at a fraction of the price of something similar from France or Spain.
Hit me with the best and best value Moldovan red (ideally available in the UK) and I'll buy a bottle. Very keen to try especially as the gannets (including, ahem, me) have cleaned Aldo out of their ridiculously good value clarets to the point that they only offer three of the still great value but more spenny ones now.
Major is another fucking 2nd voter, like Starmer et al. Despicable piece of anti-democratic sh1t. Another British Trumpite marching on parliament to overthrow an election
"Former British prime minister John Major has called for a free vote in parliament on whether to hold a second EU referendum. He is the most senior Conservative yet to attack what he called the government’s “unrealistic” Brexit strategy.
In a speech in London that comes at the lowest point so far in the 18-month withdrawal negotiations, Major argued parliament had a duty to consider the “wellbeing of the people”, as well as the will of the people in the first referendum.
“This must be a decisive vote, in which parliament can accept or reject the final outcome; or send the negotiators back to seek improvements; or order a referendum,” he was due to say according to an advance copy of the speech. “That is what parliamentary sovereignty means.”
“No one can truly know what ‘the will of the people’ may then be. So, let parliament decide. Or put the issue back to the people,” he said."
Let him fuck off back to Huntingdonshire and his deserved obscurity. He has no credibility on anything
In what way is holding another democratic vote not democratic.
Because you have to enact the first vote before anything else, AND we were solemnly told by the prime minister and by the government - in a leaflet sent to every British household - that our say in that vote in June 2016 was FINAL. That what we chose is what would happen: REMAIN or LEAVE
There is simply no escaping this moral logic, and anyone that is still trying is adding risible absurdity to grotesque outrage
You're right. It simply underlines what a catastrophic error Cameron made in his design of the whole process.
It was only an error because he thought he had guaranteed a Remain win.
It wasn't an error at all. It resulted in a Leave win that is how democracy works. He had to offer the referendum in the terms he announced otherwise he would have lost the GE without the Kippers.
Can I really believe I am having this discussion six years after the vote.
He could have negotiated an end-state before the referendum.
At the very least he could have put EEA on the ballot paper.
I’m still amazed about the number of posts that refer to Brexit. Brexit got done! What we should be discussing is the arsey way it’s being implemented.
I suppose there's not really much to discuss. Remainers think the Brexit we got is a feature of Brexit; Leavers think the Brexit we got is a feature of Boris. Although it's not clear who's the most disappointed.
"Australia’s largest pension fund to pour £23bn into UK and Europe"
Much more, per capita, is going into the UK than the EU
They are increasing UK investment by 114%, and EU investment by 122%. So a slight rebalance towards EU funds in a landscape of overall increased investment (as it says in the article, this means they are maintaining the overall level of investment in the region relative to others).
I read the same thing. Not wanting to rain on Leon's parade I thought it impolite to mention it " For those who can't be bothered to read Leon's Bullshit here's the quote from the article "
Australia’s largest pension scheme plans to invest £23bn in the UK and Europe over the next five years as it joins other global mega funds pushing further into private markets for returns.
AustralianSuper, which manages A$244bn (£128bn) on behalf of 2.5mn members, expects to more than double its UK assets from £7bn currently to more than £15bn by 2026. The superannuation fund manager is planning to increase its investment in Europe from £12.6bn to £28bn over the same period",
What part of Leon's quote is "bullshit"? The figure (23bn) is right, and so is the per capita stat.
The "bullshit" is using a meaningless statistic ("per capita" - a measure that has no sense in this context), to try to shoe-horn in a point, when the announcement shows that they are marginally rebalancing their *existing* investment *away* from the UK to the EU (a tiny amouint) while increasing the overall level of investment in both.
Given the closeness of the percentage figures and that these are just plans, it might not even result in any "rebalancing" if one slightly overshoots and/or the other slightly undershoots.
"Australia’s largest pension fund to pour £23bn into UK and Europe"
Much more, per capita, is going into the UK than the EU
They are increasing UK investment by 114%, and EU investment by 122%. So a slight rebalance towards EU funds in a landscape of overall increased investment (as it says in the article, this means they are maintaining the overall level of investment in the region relative to others).
I read the same thing. Not wanting to rain on Leon's parade I thought it impolite to mention it " For those who can't be bothered to read Leon's Bullshit here's the quote from the article "
Australia’s largest pension scheme plans to invest £23bn in the UK and Europe over the next five years as it joins other global mega funds pushing further into private markets for returns.
AustralianSuper, which manages A$244bn (£128bn) on behalf of 2.5mn members, expects to more than double its UK assets from £7bn currently to more than £15bn by 2026. The superannuation fund manager is planning to increase its investment in Europe from £12.6bn to £28bn over the same period",
What part of Leon's quote is "bullshit"? The figure (23bn) is right, and so is the per capita stat.
The "bullshit" is using a meaningless statistic ("per capita" - a measure that has no sense in this context), to try to shoe-horn in a point, when the announcement shows that they are marginally rebalancing their *existing* investment *away* from the UK to the EU (a tiny amouint) while increasing the overall level of investment in both.
We were told by Remainers that inward investment would "collapse" after Brexit
The reality?
"AustralianSuper, which manages A$244bn (£128bn) on behalf of 2.5mn members, expects to more than double its UK assets from £7bn currently to more than £15bn by 2026.
The planned purchases would keep the weighting of UK and European assets as a proportion of the fund’s total steady. .... More than half of the fund is already invested offshore, including in major UK assets like Heathrow airport and London’s King’s Cross redevelopment project, but Moloney sees more international opportunities in private markets.
Moloney said that the UK was an “obvious choice” to deploy more cash, particularly considering the fund was a long-term investor.
“Our experience to date in the UK has been very positive, with investments in assets like Heathrow, Peel Ports and the King's Cross redevelopment,” he added.
“There are deep pools of high-quality talent, a stable and reliable legal and regulatory environment and many like-minded partners with whom to work. There is also a strong cultural fit.”
Wayne Fitzgibbon, partner with Mercer, the professional services firm, said it “made sense” for Australian superannuation funds to expand in the UK, given the government’s efforts to attract more local and foreign capital with its “investment big bang” initiative.
“The type of infrastructure opportunities in UK — particularly social infrastructure and affordable housing — will offer diversification benefits in a global portfolio,” said Fitzgibbon.
As part of its global expansion, AustralianSuper, which manages pensions for one in 10 Australian workers, will double its London office headcount from 50 to 100."
If you think that is "bullshit" then, well, that probably says more about you
Major is another fucking 2nd voter, like Starmer et al. Despicable piece of anti-democratic sh1t. Another British Trumpite marching on parliament to overthrow an election
"Former British prime minister John Major has called for a free vote in parliament on whether to hold a second EU referendum. He is the most senior Conservative yet to attack what he called the government’s “unrealistic” Brexit strategy.
In a speech in London that comes at the lowest point so far in the 18-month withdrawal negotiations, Major argued parliament had a duty to consider the “wellbeing of the people”, as well as the will of the people in the first referendum.
“This must be a decisive vote, in which parliament can accept or reject the final outcome; or send the negotiators back to seek improvements; or order a referendum,” he was due to say according to an advance copy of the speech. “That is what parliamentary sovereignty means.”
“No one can truly know what ‘the will of the people’ may then be. So, let parliament decide. Or put the issue back to the people,” he said."
Let him fuck off back to Huntingdonshire and his deserved obscurity. He has no credibility on anything
In what way is holding another democratic vote not democratic.
Because you have to enact the first vote before anything else, AND we were solemnly told by the prime minister and by the government - in a leaflet sent to every British household - that our say in that vote in June 2016 was FINAL. That what we chose is what would happen: REMAIN or LEAVE
There is simply no escaping this moral logic, and anyone that is still trying is adding risible absurdity to grotesque outrage
You're right. It simply underlines what a catastrophic error Cameron made in his design of the whole process.
It was only an error because he thought he had guaranteed a Remain win.
It wasn't an error at all. It resulted in a Leave win that is how democracy works. He had to offer the referendum in the terms he announced otherwise he would have lost the GE without the Kippers.
Can I really believe I am having this discussion six years after the vote.
He could have negotiated an end-state before the referendum.
At the very least he could have put EEA on the ballot paper.
Oh god yes but I'm not sure he thought that the UK would adopt the kamikaze set our own head on fire approach to Brexit.
"Australia’s largest pension fund to pour £23bn into UK and Europe"
Much more, per capita, is going into the UK than the EU
They are increasing UK investment by 114%, and EU investment by 122%. So a slight rebalance towards EU funds in a landscape of overall increased investment (as it says in the article, this means they are maintaining the overall level of investment in the region relative to others).
I read the same thing. Not wanting to rain on Leon's parade I thought it impolite to mention it " For those who can't be bothered to read Leon's Bullshit here's the quote from the article "
Australia’s largest pension scheme plans to invest £23bn in the UK and Europe over the next five years as it joins other global mega funds pushing further into private markets for returns.
AustralianSuper, which manages A$244bn (£128bn) on behalf of 2.5mn members, expects to more than double its UK assets from £7bn currently to more than £15bn by 2026. The superannuation fund manager is planning to increase its investment in Europe from £12.6bn to £28bn over the same period",
What part of Leon's quote is "bullshit"? The figure (23bn) is right, and so is the per capita stat.
The "bullshit" is using a meaningless statistic ("per capita" - a measure that has no sense in this context), to try to shoe-horn in a point, when the announcement shows that they are marginally rebalancing their *existing* investment *away* from the UK to the EU (a tiny amouint) while increasing the overall level of investment in both.
Why does it have no sense in this context? If they had invested the same amount of money in, say Liechtenstein, as in the entire EU, don't you think that would have been viewed a win for Liechtenstein?
"Australia’s largest pension fund to pour £23bn into UK and Europe"
Much more, per capita, is going into the UK than the EU
They are increasing UK investment by 114%, and EU investment by 122%. So a slight rebalance towards EU funds in a landscape of overall increased investment (as it says in the article, this means they are maintaining the overall level of investment in the region relative to others).
I read the same thing. Not wanting to rain on Leon's parade I thought it impolite to mention it " For those who can't be bothered to read Leon's Bullshit here's the quote from the article "
Australia’s largest pension scheme plans to invest £23bn in the UK and Europe over the next five years as it joins other global mega funds pushing further into private markets for returns.
AustralianSuper, which manages A$244bn (£128bn) on behalf of 2.5mn members, expects to more than double its UK assets from £7bn currently to more than £15bn by 2026. The superannuation fund manager is planning to increase its investment in Europe from £12.6bn to £28bn over the same period",
What part of Leon's quote is "bullshit"? The figure (23bn) is right, and so is the per capita stat.
The "bullshit" is using a meaningless statistic ("per capita" - a measure that has no sense in this context), to try to shoe-horn in a point, when the announcement shows that they are marginally rebalancing their *existing* investment *away* from the UK to the EU (a tiny amouint) while increasing the overall level of investment in both.
We were told by Remainers that inward investment would "collapse" after Brexit
The reality?
"AustralianSuper, which manages A$244bn (£128bn) on behalf of 2.5mn members, expects to more than double its UK assets from £7bn currently to more than £15bn by 2026.
The planned purchases would keep the weighting of UK and European assets as a proportion of the fund’s total steady. .... More than half of the fund is already invested offshore, including in major UK assets like Heathrow airport and London’s King’s Cross redevelopment project, but Moloney sees more international opportunities in private markets.
Moloney said that the UK was an “obvious choice” to deploy more cash, particularly considering the fund was a long-term investor.
“Our experience to date in the UK has been very positive, with investments in assets like Heathrow, Peel Ports and the King's Cross redevelopment,” he added.
“There are deep pools of high-quality talent, a stable and reliable legal and regulatory environment and many like-minded partners with whom to work. There is also a strong cultural fit.”
Wayne Fitzgibbon, partner with Mercer, the professional services firm, said it “made sense” for Australian superannuation funds to expand in the UK, given the government’s efforts to attract more local and foreign capital with its “investment big bang” initiative.
“The type of infrastructure opportunities in UK — particularly social infrastructure and affordable housing — will offer diversification benefits in a global portfolio,” said Fitzgibbon.
As part of its global expansion, AustralianSuper, which manages pensions for one in 10 Australian workers, will double its London office headcount from 50 to 100."
If you think that is "bullshit" then, well, that probably says more about you
That’s £8bn of FDI over five years, and 50 new jobs managing it. Not to be sneezed at. These investments all add up.
I guess now we know what Ms Truss was doing, on that Australia trip everyone was complaining about the other week.
Major is another fucking 2nd voter, like Starmer et al. Despicable piece of anti-democratic sh1t. Another British Trumpite marching on parliament to overthrow an election
"Former British prime minister John Major has called for a free vote in parliament on whether to hold a second EU referendum. He is the most senior Conservative yet to attack what he called the government’s “unrealistic” Brexit strategy.
In a speech in London that comes at the lowest point so far in the 18-month withdrawal negotiations, Major argued parliament had a duty to consider the “wellbeing of the people”, as well as the will of the people in the first referendum.
“This must be a decisive vote, in which parliament can accept or reject the final outcome; or send the negotiators back to seek improvements; or order a referendum,” he was due to say according to an advance copy of the speech. “That is what parliamentary sovereignty means.”
“No one can truly know what ‘the will of the people’ may then be. So, let parliament decide. Or put the issue back to the people,” he said."
Let him fuck off back to Huntingdonshire and his deserved obscurity. He has no credibility on anything
In what way is holding another democratic vote not democratic.
Because you have to enact the first vote before anything else, AND we were solemnly told by the prime minister and by the government - in a leaflet sent to every British household - that our say in that vote in June 2016 was FINAL. That what we chose is what would happen: REMAIN or LEAVE
There is simply no escaping this moral logic, and anyone that is still trying is adding risible absurdity to grotesque outrage
You're right. It simply underlines what a catastrophic error Cameron made in his design of the whole process.
It was only an error because he thought he had guaranteed a Remain win.
It wasn't an error at all. It resulted in a Leave win that is how democracy works. He had to offer the referendum in the terms he announced otherwise he would have lost the GE without the Kippers.
Can I really believe I am having this discussion six years after the vote.
He could have negotiated an end-state before the referendum.
At the very least he could have put EEA on the ballot paper.
He should have given us a two stage referendum, lots of countries have them, with difficult questions
The first: REMAIN or LEAVE
The second, if LEAVE, would have been: What kind of LEAVE
We would surely have opted for some kind of EEA/EFTA thing?
And we should have done all this before triggering Article 50, there was no legal obligation for us to do that, we were free to choose the timing. Once we DID trigger A50, then we were in a bind, with the clock ticking, and the EU had all the aces
Speaking of investment, what do people make of this?
Investment in financial tech firms in the UK grew sevenfold last year to $37.3bn (£27.5bn), according to KPMG, with London attracting more fintech funding than the rest of Europe, the Middle East and Africa (EMEA) put together.
The investment total was boosted by 601 deals that were finalised in the UK in 2021, the financial services firm said, up from 470 the year before.
London’s fintech boom was strengthened by the size of many of the deals, which included the $14.8bn Refinitiv deal completed in January 2021. Five out of the 10 largest fintech deals in the EMEA region were completed in the UK, it said.
That's a colossal amount of money, and yet I suspect that most people couldn't name more than one or two of the companies invovled, I know I couldn't.
People moan, rightly, about government investment in various areas, but right under our noses the businesses of the future are booming, and most of us are completely oblivious.
I’m still amazed about the number of posts that refer to Brexit. Brexit got done! What we should be discussing is the arsey way it’s being implemented.
I suppose there's not really much to discuss. Remainers think the Brexit we got is a feature of Brexit; Leavers think the Brexit we got is a feature of Boris. Although it's not clear who's the most disappointed.
Speaking of investment, what do people make of this?
Investment in financial tech firms in the UK grew sevenfold last year to $37.3bn (£27.5bn), according to KPMG, with London attracting more fintech funding than the rest of Europe, the Middle East and Africa (EMEA) put together.
The investment total was boosted by 601 deals that were finalised in the UK in 2021, the financial services firm said, up from 470 the year before.
London’s fintech boom was strengthened by the size of many of the deals, which included the $14.8bn Refinitiv deal completed in January 2021. Five out of the 10 largest fintech deals in the EMEA region were completed in the UK, it said.
That's a colossal amount of money, and yet I suspect that most people couldn't name more than one or two of the companies invovled, I know I couldn't.
People moan, rightly, about government investment in various areas, but right under our noses the businesses of the future are booming, and most of us are completely oblivious.
Business is booming in the technology related sectors. Hard skilled jobs are getting big pay rises etc.
The biggest skill shortages are (as ever) in the skilled-but-blue-collar-sounding jobs.
Major is another fucking 2nd voter, like Starmer et al. Despicable piece of anti-democratic sh1t. Another British Trumpite marching on parliament to overthrow an election
"Former British prime minister John Major has called for a free vote in parliament on whether to hold a second EU referendum. He is the most senior Conservative yet to attack what he called the government’s “unrealistic” Brexit strategy.
In a speech in London that comes at the lowest point so far in the 18-month withdrawal negotiations, Major argued parliament had a duty to consider the “wellbeing of the people”, as well as the will of the people in the first referendum.
“This must be a decisive vote, in which parliament can accept or reject the final outcome; or send the negotiators back to seek improvements; or order a referendum,” he was due to say according to an advance copy of the speech. “That is what parliamentary sovereignty means.”
“No one can truly know what ‘the will of the people’ may then be. So, let parliament decide. Or put the issue back to the people,” he said."
Let him fuck off back to Huntingdonshire and his deserved obscurity. He has no credibility on anything
In what way is holding another democratic vote not democratic.
Because you have to enact the first vote before anything else, AND we were solemnly told by the prime minister and by the government - in a leaflet sent to every British household - that our say in that vote in June 2016 was FINAL. That what we chose is what would happen: REMAIN or LEAVE
There is simply no escaping this moral logic, and anyone that is still trying is adding risible absurdity to grotesque outrage
You're right. It simply underlines what a catastrophic error Cameron made in his design of the whole process.
It was only an error because he thought he had guaranteed a Remain win.
It wasn't an error at all. It resulted in a Leave win that is how democracy works. He had to offer the referendum in the terms he announced otherwise he would have lost the GE without the Kippers.
Can I really believe I am having this discussion six years after the vote.
He could have negotiated an end-state before the referendum.
At the very least he could have put EEA on the ballot paper.
He should have given us a two stage referendum, lots of countries have them, with difficult questions
The first: REMAIN or LEAVE
The second, if LEAVE, would have been: What kind of LEAVE
We would surely have opted for some kind of EEA/EFTA thing?
And we should have done all this before triggering Article 50, there was no legal obligation for us to do that, we were free to choose the timing. Once we DID trigger A50, then we were in a bind, with the clock ticking, and the EU had all the aces
I'm not sure we would have; or had we done so it would have been a 52:48 in reverse and solved nothing.
Question is whether EEA/EFTA would have been the best of both worlds, or the worst?
After all, full-fat EEA would have left us with the same degree of open borders, still following single market rules, still paying in... just with less input to the direction of the thing. It would have decisively got us off the Ever Closer Union train, though Dave's Dodgy Deal did that.
Politically, it turned out that the Conservatives and those to the right of them weren't willing to put up with May's plan, which was a much more decisive break than EEA would have been. God knows what they'd have made of EEA. Whatever it was that the 17.4 million voted for, it wasn't that.
"Australia’s largest pension fund to pour £23bn into UK and Europe"
Much more, per capita, is going into the UK than the EU
They are increasing UK investment by 114%, and EU investment by 122%. So a slight rebalance towards EU funds in a landscape of overall increased investment (as it says in the article, this means they are maintaining the overall level of investment in the region relative to others).
I read the same thing. Not wanting to rain on Leon's parade I thought it impolite to mention it " For those who can't be bothered to read Leon's Bullshit here's the quote from the article "
Australia’s largest pension scheme plans to invest £23bn in the UK and Europe over the next five years as it joins other global mega funds pushing further into private markets for returns.
AustralianSuper, which manages A$244bn (£128bn) on behalf of 2.5mn members, expects to more than double its UK assets from £7bn currently to more than £15bn by 2026. The superannuation fund manager is planning to increase its investment in Europe from £12.6bn to £28bn over the same period",
What part of Leon's quote is "bullshit"? The figure (23bn) is right, and so is the per capita stat.
The "bullshit" is using a meaningless statistic ("per capita" - a measure that has no sense in this context), to try to shoe-horn in a point, when the announcement shows that they are marginally rebalancing their *existing* investment *away* from the UK to the EU (a tiny amouint) while increasing the overall level of investment in both.
Why does it have no sense in this context? If they had invested the same amount of money in, say Liechtenstein, as in the entire EU, don't you think that would have been viewed a win for Liechtenstein?
A "win" in the sense that they were increasing overall levels of investment? Of course. "Over someone else"? Not really, no.
It is all relative the existing investment portfolio. If they were *already* heavily invested in Lichtenstein and decided to rebalance away from Lichtenstein a little and towards the EU, then that is a win for everyone in the region (overall increased investment), but a nod towards the fact that there may be some increased risk in Lichtenstein (slightly lower overall in the balance of things).
I don't see what information the "per capita" number gives you?
Major is another fucking 2nd voter, like Starmer et al. Despicable piece of anti-democratic sh1t. Another British Trumpite marching on parliament to overthrow an election
"Former British prime minister John Major has called for a free vote in parliament on whether to hold a second EU referendum. He is the most senior Conservative yet to attack what he called the government’s “unrealistic” Brexit strategy.
In a speech in London that comes at the lowest point so far in the 18-month withdrawal negotiations, Major argued parliament had a duty to consider the “wellbeing of the people”, as well as the will of the people in the first referendum.
“This must be a decisive vote, in which parliament can accept or reject the final outcome; or send the negotiators back to seek improvements; or order a referendum,” he was due to say according to an advance copy of the speech. “That is what parliamentary sovereignty means.”
“No one can truly know what ‘the will of the people’ may then be. So, let parliament decide. Or put the issue back to the people,” he said."
Let him fuck off back to Huntingdonshire and his deserved obscurity. He has no credibility on anything
John Major was truly the king of the hypocrites.
There were no free votes or referendum on his precious Maastricht treaty.
And then there was his affair with Edwina Currie contrasted with his 'back to basics' morality drive.
I find Major an utterly repulsive figure, his canting lies about Europe are one reason we ended up where we did, as you say
There are a zillion reasons to dump Boris, and I think he should be dumped, but the opinion of John bloody Major is not one of them
I actually disagree with that. Maastricht, with its pillars, variable geometry, opt outs and subsidiarity created a place where the UK could be in the EU getting what we wanted out of it whilst not getting in the road of those who wanted more, such as the single currency. Of course we should have had a vote on it but it did offer us at least the foundations of the half way house we were looking for.
The problem was that Blair in particular, and Brown, wanted to be at the heart of Europe so they gave up some of the opt outs and put us back on the track to ever closer union, albeit at a slower pace, through Lisbon. And, of course, we still didn't get a vote on it.
If they had built on the path Major set out in Maastricht instead I think that we would still be in the EU, with the vast majority (if not all the fanatics) quite content with our half way house.
And that would also be Blair and Brown who were democratically elected to govern the UK according to their political philosophy.
No-one (sane) is disputing that Brown had the legal right to do what he did. It's just that, if he wanted us to remain part of the EU, what he did was very bad strategy, because it essentially forced the electorate to demand an in-out referendum to settle the matter, and therefore he takes a large share of the blame for why we left.
I agree that if Brown had followed through, allowed the referendum on Lisbon, and then refused to sign it after we voted No by (say) 65:35, we would still be in the EU. Unless of course, the EU had found another way to enact it anyway, and then we would have also left by now, having spotted that they don't actually care what we think.
Did the electorate really demand an in-out referendum, as you claim? I think that may be a bit of myth. Despite efforts in the media to ramp up hatred of the EU, my recollection is that prior to around 2015 the electorate wasn't that interested in the EU - although they did have concerns about immigration.
But the referendum was primarily about the Tory Party, and the threat to its right flank from UKIP, wasn't it? That's the boil that Cameron was seeking, and failed, to lance.
Major is another fucking 2nd voter, like Starmer et al. Despicable piece of anti-democratic sh1t. Another British Trumpite marching on parliament to overthrow an election
"Former British prime minister John Major has called for a free vote in parliament on whether to hold a second EU referendum. He is the most senior Conservative yet to attack what he called the government’s “unrealistic” Brexit strategy.
In a speech in London that comes at the lowest point so far in the 18-month withdrawal negotiations, Major argued parliament had a duty to consider the “wellbeing of the people”, as well as the will of the people in the first referendum.
“This must be a decisive vote, in which parliament can accept or reject the final outcome; or send the negotiators back to seek improvements; or order a referendum,” he was due to say according to an advance copy of the speech. “That is what parliamentary sovereignty means.”
“No one can truly know what ‘the will of the people’ may then be. So, let parliament decide. Or put the issue back to the people,” he said."
Let him fuck off back to Huntingdonshire and his deserved obscurity. He has no credibility on anything
In what way is holding another democratic vote not democratic.
Because you have to enact the first vote before anything else, AND we were solemnly told by the prime minister and by the government - in a leaflet sent to every British household - that our say in that vote in June 2016 was FINAL. That what we chose is what would happen: REMAIN or LEAVE
There is simply no escaping this moral logic, and anyone that is still trying is adding risible absurdity to grotesque outrage
You're right. It simply underlines what a catastrophic error Cameron made in his design of the whole process.
It was only an error because he thought he had guaranteed a Remain win.
It wasn't an error at all. It resulted in a Leave win that is how democracy works. He had to offer the referendum in the terms he announced otherwise he would have lost the GE without the Kippers.
Can I really believe I am having this discussion six years after the vote.
He could have negotiated an end-state before the referendum.
At the very least he could have put EEA on the ballot paper.
He should have given us a two stage referendum, lots of countries have them, with difficult questions
The first: REMAIN or LEAVE
The second, if LEAVE, would have been: What kind of LEAVE
We would surely have opted for some kind of EEA/EFTA thing?
And we should have done all this before triggering Article 50, there was no legal obligation for us to do that, we were free to choose the timing. Once we DID trigger A50, then we were in a bind, with the clock ticking, and the EU had all the aces
I'm not sure we would have; or had we done so it would have been a 52:48 in reverse and solved nothing.
Question is whether EEA/EFTA would have been the best of both worlds, or the worst?
After all, full-fat EEA would have left us with the same degree of open borders, still following single market rules, still paying in... just with less input to the direction of the thing. It would have decisively got us off the Ever Closer Union train, though Dave's Dodgy Deal did that.
Politically, it turned out that the Conservatives and those to the right of them weren't willing to put up with May's plan, which was a much more decisive break than EEA would have been. God knows what they'd have made of EEA. Whatever it was that the 17.4 million voted for, it wasn't that.
Tis all a muddle.
Yes, you are possibly right
But at least my suggestion might have avoided some of the divisive bitterness (and it would also have stopped the mad 2nd vote Remoaners humiliating themselves)
Ah well. We are where we are
I do agree that Brexit is a pretty boring topic, by the way - in the same way as Scottish indy. I would be quite happy for both to disappear from PB's list of talking points tomorrow, but I sadly doubt they will
"Australia’s largest pension fund to pour £23bn into UK and Europe"
Much more, per capita, is going into the UK than the EU
They are increasing UK investment by 114%, and EU investment by 122%. So a slight rebalance towards EU funds in a landscape of overall increased investment (as it says in the article, this means they are maintaining the overall level of investment in the region relative to others).
I read the same thing. Not wanting to rain on Leon's parade I thought it impolite to mention it " For those who can't be bothered to read Leon's Bullshit here's the quote from the article "
Australia’s largest pension scheme plans to invest £23bn in the UK and Europe over the next five years as it joins other global mega funds pushing further into private markets for returns.
AustralianSuper, which manages A$244bn (£128bn) on behalf of 2.5mn members, expects to more than double its UK assets from £7bn currently to more than £15bn by 2026. The superannuation fund manager is planning to increase its investment in Europe from £12.6bn to £28bn over the same period",
What part of Leon's quote is "bullshit"? The figure (23bn) is right, and so is the per capita stat.
The "bullshit" is using a meaningless statistic ("per capita" - a measure that has no sense in this context), to try to shoe-horn in a point, when the announcement shows that they are marginally rebalancing their *existing* investment *away* from the UK to the EU (a tiny amouint) while increasing the overall level of investment in both.
We were told by Remainers that inward investment would "collapse" after Brexit
The reality?
"AustralianSuper, which manages A$244bn (£128bn) on behalf of 2.5mn members, expects to more than double its UK assets from £7bn currently to more than £15bn by 2026.
The planned purchases would keep the weighting of UK and European assets as a proportion of the fund’s total steady. .... More than half of the fund is already invested offshore, including in major UK assets like Heathrow airport and London’s King’s Cross redevelopment project, but Moloney sees more international opportunities in private markets.
Moloney said that the UK was an “obvious choice” to deploy more cash, particularly considering the fund was a long-term investor.
“Our experience to date in the UK has been very positive, with investments in assets like Heathrow, Peel Ports and the King's Cross redevelopment,” he added.
“There are deep pools of high-quality talent, a stable and reliable legal and regulatory environment and many like-minded partners with whom to work. There is also a strong cultural fit.”
Wayne Fitzgibbon, partner with Mercer, the professional services firm, said it “made sense” for Australian superannuation funds to expand in the UK, given the government’s efforts to attract more local and foreign capital with its “investment big bang” initiative.
“The type of infrastructure opportunities in UK — particularly social infrastructure and affordable housing — will offer diversification benefits in a global portfolio,” said Fitzgibbon.
As part of its global expansion, AustralianSuper, which manages pensions for one in 10 Australian workers, will double its London office headcount from 50 to 100."
If you think that is "bullshit" then, well, that probably says more about you
Oh, I'm not saying that increased inward investment is "bullshit". It's the spin that this is somehow a Brexit dividend when the reality is that there is a (marginal) rebalance away from the UK in their portfolio. That's the bullshit aspect.
Major is another fucking 2nd voter, like Starmer et al. Despicable piece of anti-democratic sh1t. Another British Trumpite marching on parliament to overthrow an election
"Former British prime minister John Major has called for a free vote in parliament on whether to hold a second EU referendum. He is the most senior Conservative yet to attack what he called the government’s “unrealistic” Brexit strategy.
In a speech in London that comes at the lowest point so far in the 18-month withdrawal negotiations, Major argued parliament had a duty to consider the “wellbeing of the people”, as well as the will of the people in the first referendum.
“This must be a decisive vote, in which parliament can accept or reject the final outcome; or send the negotiators back to seek improvements; or order a referendum,” he was due to say according to an advance copy of the speech. “That is what parliamentary sovereignty means.”
“No one can truly know what ‘the will of the people’ may then be. So, let parliament decide. Or put the issue back to the people,” he said."
Let him fuck off back to Huntingdonshire and his deserved obscurity. He has no credibility on anything
In what way is holding another democratic vote not democratic.
Its perfectly democratic, its just that it would also have massively damaged trust in democracy. Millions of people regarded the initial referendum as something to be respected, whether the vote went the way they wanted or not. I voted remain, the country voted out, and i expected that to be delivered.
So while its wrong to say a second vote would be undemocratic, its also true that it would have damaged trust in democracy,
Suppose there had been a genuine groundswell of opinion, and the public had changed its mind, so that by early 2019 a clear 2-1 majority was in favour of cancelling Article 50 and forgetting that the previous three years had happened.
In that unlikely circumstance it would have been absurd and undemocratic to continue with Brexit.
My objection to a second referendum was purely that this evidently hadn't happened. The argument hadn't been won.
And we saw this very clearly with the GE2019 result.
"Australia’s largest pension fund to pour £23bn into UK and Europe"
Much more, per capita, is going into the UK than the EU
They are increasing UK investment by 114%, and EU investment by 122%. So a slight rebalance towards EU funds in a landscape of overall increased investment (as it says in the article, this means they are maintaining the overall level of investment in the region relative to others).
I read the same thing. Not wanting to rain on Leon's parade I thought it impolite to mention it " For those who can't be bothered to read Leon's Bullshit here's the quote from the article "
Australia’s largest pension scheme plans to invest £23bn in the UK and Europe over the next five years as it joins other global mega funds pushing further into private markets for returns.
AustralianSuper, which manages A$244bn (£128bn) on behalf of 2.5mn members, expects to more than double its UK assets from £7bn currently to more than £15bn by 2026. The superannuation fund manager is planning to increase its investment in Europe from £12.6bn to £28bn over the same period",
What part of Leon's quote is "bullshit"? The figure (23bn) is right, and so is the per capita stat.
The "bullshit" is using a meaningless statistic ("per capita" - a measure that has no sense in this context), to try to shoe-horn in a point, when the announcement shows that they are marginally rebalancing their *existing* investment *away* from the UK to the EU (a tiny amouint) while increasing the overall level of investment in both.
Why does it have no sense in this context? If they had invested the same amount of money in, say Liechtenstein, as in the entire EU, don't you think that would have been viewed a win for Liechtenstein?
A "win" in the sense that they were increasing overall levels of investment? Of course. "Over someone else"? Not really, no.
It is all relative the existing investment portfolio. If they were *already* heavily invested in Lichtenstein and decided to rebalance away from Lichtenstein a little and towards the EU, then that is a win for everyone in the region (overall increased investment), but a nod towards the fact that there may be some increased risk in Lichtenstein (slightly lower overall in the balance of things).
I don't see what information the "per capita" number gives you?
I suppose the better number to use would have been as a fraction of the size of the economy, but then the point would have still been the same. At some level comparing absolute amounts is meaningless, 1bn would represent a much larger investment to a very small country than a very big one.
Major is another fucking 2nd voter, like Starmer et al. Despicable piece of anti-democratic sh1t. Another British Trumpite marching on parliament to overthrow an election
"Former British prime minister John Major has called for a free vote in parliament on whether to hold a second EU referendum. He is the most senior Conservative yet to attack what he called the government’s “unrealistic” Brexit strategy.
In a speech in London that comes at the lowest point so far in the 18-month withdrawal negotiations, Major argued parliament had a duty to consider the “wellbeing of the people”, as well as the will of the people in the first referendum.
“This must be a decisive vote, in which parliament can accept or reject the final outcome; or send the negotiators back to seek improvements; or order a referendum,” he was due to say according to an advance copy of the speech. “That is what parliamentary sovereignty means.”
“No one can truly know what ‘the will of the people’ may then be. So, let parliament decide. Or put the issue back to the people,” he said."
Let him fuck off back to Huntingdonshire and his deserved obscurity. He has no credibility on anything
In what way is holding another democratic vote not democratic.
Its perfectly democratic, its just that it would also have massively damaged trust in democracy. Millions of people regarded the initial referendum as something to be respected, whether the vote went the way they wanted or not. I voted remain, the country voted out, and i expected that to be delivered.
So while its wrong to say a second vote would be undemocratic, its also true that it would have damaged trust in democracy,
Suppose there had been a genuine groundswell of opinion, and the public had changed its mind, so that by early 2019 a clear 2-1 majority was in favour of cancelling Article 50 and forgetting that the previous three years had happened.
In that unlikely circumstance it would have been absurd and undemocratic to continue with Brexit.
My objection to a second referendum was purely that this evidently hadn't happened. The argument hadn't been won.
And we saw this very clearly with the GE2019 result.
Such arguments had been ‘won’ among the denizens of London and university towns, including many in politics and media, who mistakenly thought that all they had to do was convince each other.
In December 2019, the people gave their own opinion.
Comments
Edit: and there could have been GEs at any time at all, subject to agreement required (as set down in law - what is it 2/3rds majority).
Judge: Did you or did you not sleep with this woman?
Co-respondent: Not a wink, m'lud.
British people: "Great, so if we vote LEAVE we will LEAVE?"
Prime Minister. "No. If you do that we will argue about it then make you vote again until you vote REMAIN and we will ignore your first vote, because you're stupid."
British people: "So you're totally lying?"
Prime minister: "Yes."
British people: "Is there any reason we should ever vote on anything ever again, if you can just ignore votes you don't like?"
Prime minister: "No."
British people: "So we have stopped being a democracy?"
Prime minister: "Yes. Now fuck off and let the important people decide everything."
Not considered polite across the EU to point out that it hasn't regained political equilibrium since the UK left, and that French industrial activism and protectionism are far too dominant, but I do see and hear deepening concerns as to what is happening.
https://twitter.com/DavidHenigUK/status/1491338383544971266?s=20&t=Vq0NcP84nbJ4t14M_hSqpA
The thing which baffles me is how the second-voters never saw that the EU's rejection of referendum results in Denmark, France and Ireland (twice) because the voters gave the wrong answer is one of the things which drove the Leave vote. They shredded their credibility by not standing up the day after the referendum and saying "the people have spoken, the bastards".
There's not going to be a second referendum any time soon. The terms of rejoining would clearly be worse than those we relinquished. That would be an impossible sell.
John Major had the second longest consecutive period in office of any male Tory PM in the House of Commons, dating the foundation of the party as being from the general election of 1807 which was fought by a 'Pittite' faction of whigs, tories and monarchists under a single banner that *wasn't* linked to loyalty to a living individual politician.
The only ones who had longer single terms in office were Lord Salisbury and Lord Liverpool (who were members of the Lords) Margaret Thatcher (who was a woman) and Harold Macmillan, whose single term exceeded that of Major by four months at nearly seven years.
Brexit is forever,,,, or it may only be for 6 years and we change our minds and we go back in. That's fine. THAT is democracy. We voted to Leave. We have left. Democracy was (belatedly) honoured. We can vote again any time we like
You are too smart not to see the difference between this and what the 2nd voters wanted: to ignore and anull the first vote and have a new vote to secure a REMAIN victory, and never actually LEAVE, despite the expressed will of the British people
So why make this pointless comment?
The problem was that Blair in particular, and Brown, wanted to be at the heart of Europe so they gave up some of the opt outs and put us back on the track to ever closer union, albeit at a slower pace, through Lisbon. And, of course, we still didn't get a vote on it.
If they had built on the path Major set out in Maastricht instead I think that we would still be in the EU, with the vast majority (if not all the fanatics) quite content with our half way house.
Being able to WFH & get your shopping delivered does not make you a better person
You’ve spent 2 years outsourcing your risk to poorer people
https://twitter.com/skepticalzebra/status/1491353634361454594?s=20&t=Vq0NcP84nbJ4t14M_hSqpA
And that's the kicker, given we were promised a referendum before an election.
I suspect many who wavered and could've voted either way went for Leave on the basis that they'd never, ever have another chance.
The trouble is, I can imagine Johnson claiming all this is the case. He'll whip up the Daily Express readers but the rest of us sane middle ground? Don't think so.
Tell you what. Why don't you write a novel about it and leave us all in peace?
The argument after half term will be be it is too close to local elections and on we go.
He staggers through to early summer.
So post-May elections still seems the crunch to me.
Terrifying fact - the original script for Groundhog Day had the loop lasting 10,000 years....
Secondly, pandemic isolation is deepening Putin’s misperceptions. Few now get face time with him, and most of those who do are from the security elite, such as Sergei Naryshkin, head of foreign intelligence
https://www.iiss.org/blogs/analysis/2022/02/russia-choices-and-prospect-of-war-in-ukraine
Think like the enemy. What's the most dangerous time for Johnson? Either when he is away, or they are.
The safest time for Johnson is a) when he's showboating at PMQ's and b) when his whips can bundle recalcitrants into the broom cupboard.
When they're away, out of sight and out of control it's very dangerous for Johnson. The perfect time to strike is this Friday or next Monday: when they can't be collared.
Remember, it only takes a click on the Send.
So while its wrong to say a second vote would be undemocratic, its also true that it would have damaged trust in democracy,
I wonder if some of you dream about me, awake and asleep. It's a little unsettling, but, I suppose, flattering?
I shall try to see it that way
Miss Vance, that does neglect to mention that Putin successful seized, and retains, Crimea.
Australia’s largest pension scheme plans to invest £23bn in the UK and Europe over the next five years as it joins other global mega funds pushing further into private markets for returns.
AustralianSuper, which manages A$244bn (£128bn) on behalf of 2.5mn members, expects to more than double its UK assets from £7bn currently to more than £15bn by 2026. The superannuation fund manager is planning to increase its investment in Europe from £12.6bn to £28bn over the same period",
Damn that's a great series.
I agree that if Brown had followed through, allowed the referendum on Lisbon, and then refused to sign it after we voted No by (say) 65:35, we would still be in the EU. Unless of course, the EU had found another way to enact it anyway, and then we would have also left by now, having spotted that they don't actually care what we think.
Even the opt-out from the single currency was suspected of being only for show and that ERM membership would inevitably lead to joining the single currency.
You: 15,000 posts in 2 months
Me: 5,000 posts in 6 years
And tht of course is not counting your other personas.
Buy it now before it gets all pricey
https://cluboenologique.com/review/best-moldovan-wines/
That's why most Remainers just accept it now.
Also why is Europe in quotes, he didn't even say that word.
Can I really believe I am having this discussion six years after the vote.
At the very least he could have put EEA on the ballot paper.
The reality?
"AustralianSuper, which manages A$244bn (£128bn) on behalf of 2.5mn members, expects to more than double its UK assets from £7bn currently to more than £15bn by 2026.
The planned purchases would keep the weighting of UK and European assets as a proportion of the fund’s total steady. .... More than half of the fund is already invested offshore, including in major UK assets like Heathrow airport and London’s King’s Cross redevelopment project, but Moloney sees more international opportunities in private markets.
Moloney said that the UK was an “obvious choice” to deploy more cash, particularly considering the fund was a long-term investor.
“Our experience to date in the UK has been very positive, with investments in assets like Heathrow, Peel Ports and the King's Cross redevelopment,” he added.
“There are deep pools of high-quality talent, a stable and reliable legal and regulatory environment and many like-minded partners with whom to work. There is also a strong cultural fit.”
Wayne Fitzgibbon, partner with Mercer, the professional services firm, said it “made sense” for Australian superannuation funds to expand in the UK, given the government’s efforts to attract more local and foreign capital with its “investment big bang” initiative.
“The type of infrastructure opportunities in UK — particularly social infrastructure and affordable housing — will offer diversification benefits in a global portfolio,” said Fitzgibbon.
As part of its global expansion, AustralianSuper, which manages pensions for one in 10 Australian workers, will double its London office headcount from 50 to 100."
If you think that is "bullshit" then, well, that probably says more about you
I guess now we know what Ms Truss was doing, on that Australia trip everyone was complaining about the other week.
The first: REMAIN or LEAVE
The second, if LEAVE, would have been: What kind of LEAVE
We would surely have opted for some kind of EEA/EFTA thing?
And we should have done all this before triggering Article 50, there was no legal obligation for us to do that, we were free to choose the timing. Once we DID trigger A50, then we were in a bind, with the clock ticking, and the EU had all the aces
At which point - see everyone later I'll go and do some actual work.
The investment total was boosted by 601 deals that were finalised in the UK in 2021, the financial services firm said, up from 470 the year before.
London’s fintech boom was strengthened by the size of many of the deals, which included the $14.8bn Refinitiv deal completed in January 2021. Five out of the 10 largest fintech deals in the EMEA region were completed in the UK, it said.
https://www.theguardian.com/business/2022/feb/07/uk-based-financial-tech-firms-won-sevenfold-funding-rise-last-year-to-37bn
That's a colossal amount of money, and yet I suspect that most people couldn't name more than one or two of the companies invovled, I know I couldn't.
People moan, rightly, about government investment in various areas, but right under our noses the businesses of the future are booming, and most of us are completely oblivious.
I have vowed I shall never play it again. Probably.
The biggest skill shortages are (as ever) in the skilled-but-blue-collar-sounding jobs.
Question is whether EEA/EFTA would have been the best of both worlds, or the worst?
After all, full-fat EEA would have left us with the same degree of open borders, still following single market rules, still paying in... just with less input to the direction of the thing. It would have decisively got us off the Ever Closer Union train, though Dave's Dodgy Deal did that.
Politically, it turned out that the Conservatives and those to the right of them weren't willing to put up with May's plan, which was a much more decisive break than EEA would have been. God knows what they'd have made of EEA. Whatever it was that the 17.4 million voted for, it wasn't that.
Tis all a muddle.
It is all relative the existing investment portfolio. If they were *already* heavily invested in Lichtenstein and decided to rebalance away from Lichtenstein a little and towards the EU, then that is a win for everyone in the region (overall increased investment), but a nod towards the fact that there may be some increased risk in Lichtenstein (slightly lower overall in the balance of things).
I don't see what information the "per capita" number gives you?
But the referendum was primarily about the Tory Party, and the threat to its right flank from UKIP, wasn't it? That's the boil that Cameron was seeking, and failed, to lance.
But at least my suggestion might have avoided some of the divisive bitterness (and it would also have stopped the mad 2nd vote Remoaners humiliating themselves)
Ah well. We are where we are
I do agree that Brexit is a pretty boring topic, by the way - in the same way as Scottish indy. I would be quite happy for both to disappear from PB's list of talking points tomorrow, but I sadly doubt they will
1 0
2 2
3 4
4 2
5 6
6 0
Median = 4.
Comparisons welcome.
In that unlikely circumstance it would have been absurd and undemocratic to continue with Brexit.
My objection to a second referendum was purely that this evidently hadn't happened. The argument hadn't been won.
And we saw this very clearly with the GE2019 result.
In December 2019, the people gave their own opinion.