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If Sunak is facing Tugendhat then my 250/1 bet might be in jeopardy – politicalbetting.com

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  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,454
    MrEd said:

    MrEd said:

    algarkirk said:

    A long shot prediction, but it seems to me that if there is a new PM in the near future anyone in the current government is too tarred with the brush to be a credible candidate.

    Sunak's choice was between Boris loyalism or resignation. The Savile remarks were the last chance to get out. He has chosen an uneasy path between the two.

    The final two will be out of Hunt, Tugendhat and a couple of other non government figures. FWIW I think it will be close between Hunt and Tugendhat. Either would enable several million people (including me) to take the Tories seriously again, though I doubt if either could beat SKS+ the centre left alliance in the next GE.

    The long shot nature of this prediction is that it requires an outbreak of sanity among a majority of the Tory MPs. Here's hoping.

    I think you are right on any of the current Cabinet not having a chance.

    The lack of a move by Sunak is not that big a surprise when you look at his work background - Goldmans and a hedge fund. Not the sort of people who do anything without rationalising things to the nth degree rather than go with their gut (Sunak wasn't that type of hedge fund guy). I think he has been looking at the polls and thinking "I'm not sure about this". He's probably hoping now he can stay until; BJ steps down and then launch his bid. The problem with that is that BJ bears grudges and will chop him off at the knees. By then, it is too late.

    I think what the current Conservative MP reaction has also shown is that anyone from the Remainer, Home Counties Tory list of candidates is unlikely to have much of a chance. This was the moment for them to at least attempt a takeover by using BJ's sins to cast him out. They have failed.

    Re betting, look for the ERG / Red Wall combo for the surprise candidate. I've mentioned this several times before before but I've put money on McVey at 100/1 (straight bet, no trading involved in case anyone asks). Sacked by Boris but Cabinet experience, would have support from both ERG and Red Wall divide, anti-lockdowner so no association there and has stood before (although badly). If you don't fancy that bet, look for someone who can combine the two factions together - it's a powerful combo in the election race.
    Tend to agree, someone like Mordaunt is probably a value bet and can see how she could reunite the Conservative party. Can't take McVey seriously though.
    A lot of people couldn't take BJ seriously as well...but know what you mean. However, that's probably why she is 100/1.

    Not sure re Mordaunt. Yes, on the pro-Brexit side but she is a southern MP with no clear roots in the North. She is a bit of a Brexiteer version of Liz Truss.
    What links to the north does Boris have?
  • The video of Starmer being hounded is extremely distressing. What is happening to our country.

    Were you distressed when exactly the same thing happened to Michael Gove, note he was also shouted at that he was protecting paedos

    https://twitter.com/urban_pictures/status/1450454322664427520
    Did Keir Starmer, Ed Davey, or any of the other party leaders draw attention to that particular conspiracy theory in parliament last October, by any chance ?
    No but the Labour Party Deputy Leader did say this a couple of weeks before this happened:

    “We cannot get any worse than a bunch of scum, homophobic, racist, misogynistic, absolute vile… banana republic, vile, nasty, Etonian… piece of scum.”
    And she apologised for saying it, IIRC. Where is Johnson's apology? Nowhere to be seen, because he is utterly without any shred of human decency, a rancid turd floating in the swimming pool of British political life.
  • ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Boris Johnson faces growing pressure to make “fulsome apology” and withdraw his “slur” that Sir Keir Starmer failed to prosecute Jimmy Savile - story with @DJBond6873 and @RachaelBurford https://www.standard.co.uk/news/politics/jimmy-savile-slur-boris-johnson-apology-keir-starmer-mps-b981358.html https://twitter.com/nicholascecil/status/1491021896598441985/photo/1

    I can't see how he can apologise now. To do so now would effectively be an admission that his words helped cause the disgraceful scenes yesterday by Corbyn the Elder and his unpleasant fellow nutjobs.

    Meanwhile I see that Corbyn jnr and his erstwhile pillion companion serving Ms Abbott - a serving Labour MP - are backing Putin in his aggression towards Ukraine.

    What a revolting lot they are.
    Corbyn Jr made Ms Abbott into his pillion companion?

    Now that would be a bit of news.

    Or have I misunderstood your comment?
    https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/6168594/diane-abbott-reveals-jeremy-corbyn-took-her-on-a-romantic-camping-trip-when-they-had-a-fling-in-the-70s/
    But that was Corbyn Sr, surely?
    Ah, I see what you mean. I meant Snr = Piers, Jnr = Jeremy.
  • MrEdMrEd Posts: 5,578
    Scott_xP said:
    Which suggests you won't get an apology out of BJ.

  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,373

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Boris Johnson faces growing pressure to make “fulsome apology” and withdraw his “slur” that Sir Keir Starmer failed to prosecute Jimmy Savile - story with @DJBond6873 and @RachaelBurford https://www.standard.co.uk/news/politics/jimmy-savile-slur-boris-johnson-apology-keir-starmer-mps-b981358.html https://twitter.com/nicholascecil/status/1491021896598441985/photo/1

    I can't see how he can apologise now. To do so now would effectively be an admission that his words helped cause the disgraceful scenes yesterday by Corbyn the Elder and his unpleasant fellow nutjobs.

    Meanwhile I see that Corbyn jnr and his erstwhile pillion companion serving Ms Abbott - a serving Labour MP - are backing Putin in his aggression towards Ukraine.

    What a revolting lot they are.
    Corbyn Jr made Ms Abbott into his pillion companion?

    Now that would be a bit of news.

    Or have I misunderstood your comment?
    https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/6168594/diane-abbott-reveals-jeremy-corbyn-took-her-on-a-romantic-camping-trip-when-they-had-a-fling-in-the-70s/
    But that was Corbyn Sr, surely?
    Ah, I see what you mean. I meant Snr = Piers, Jnr = Jeremy.
    Ah, right. Thanks.

    That is not the way I thought of it...
  • NerysHughesNerysHughes Posts: 3,375

    The video of Starmer being hounded is extremely distressing. What is happening to our country.

    Were you distressed when exactly the same thing happened to Michael Gove, note he was also shouted at that he was protecting paedos

    https://twitter.com/urban_pictures/status/1450454322664427520
    Did Keir Starmer, Ed Davey, or any of the other party leaders draw attention to that particular conspiracy theory in parliament last October, by any chance ?
    No but the Labour Party Deputy Leader did say this a couple of weeks before this happened:

    “We cannot get any worse than a bunch of scum, homophobic, racist, misogynistic, absolute vile… banana republic, vile, nasty, Etonian… piece of scum.”
    That wasn't fomenting already existing online conspiracy thinking, though as new kind of Trumpian importation into parliament ; just pointless abuse. And not only that, but she's apologised - has Johnson ?
    She was threatened with the sack before apologising, she was given ample opportunity numerous times in the month after she made the comment but refused.

    All Johnson did was state a fact for which SKS apologised in 2013 for the failings of the organisation he was in charge of.
  • Leon said:

    Leon said:

    RobD said:

    The video of Starmer being hounded is extremely distressing. What is happening to our country.

    It's nothing new, unfortunately.
    I don’t recall this bleating when Farage was attacked. Or indeed Douglas Carswell in circs very similar to Starmer
    It's obvious, Farage and Carswell were obnoxious people.
    Aaaaand QED. We, the Left, are better than anyone else
    Hehe, reeled in. Is the sun below the yard arm yet?

    :wink:
  • MrEdMrEd Posts: 5,578

    MrEd said:

    MrEd said:

    algarkirk said:

    A long shot prediction, but it seems to me that if there is a new PM in the near future anyone in the current government is too tarred with the brush to be a credible candidate.

    Sunak's choice was between Boris loyalism or resignation. The Savile remarks were the last chance to get out. He has chosen an uneasy path between the two.

    The final two will be out of Hunt, Tugendhat and a couple of other non government figures. FWIW I think it will be close between Hunt and Tugendhat. Either would enable several million people (including me) to take the Tories seriously again, though I doubt if either could beat SKS+ the centre left alliance in the next GE.

    The long shot nature of this prediction is that it requires an outbreak of sanity among a majority of the Tory MPs. Here's hoping.

    I think you are right on any of the current Cabinet not having a chance.

    The lack of a move by Sunak is not that big a surprise when you look at his work background - Goldmans and a hedge fund. Not the sort of people who do anything without rationalising things to the nth degree rather than go with their gut (Sunak wasn't that type of hedge fund guy). I think he has been looking at the polls and thinking "I'm not sure about this". He's probably hoping now he can stay until; BJ steps down and then launch his bid. The problem with that is that BJ bears grudges and will chop him off at the knees. By then, it is too late.

    I think what the current Conservative MP reaction has also shown is that anyone from the Remainer, Home Counties Tory list of candidates is unlikely to have much of a chance. This was the moment for them to at least attempt a takeover by using BJ's sins to cast him out. They have failed.

    Re betting, look for the ERG / Red Wall combo for the surprise candidate. I've mentioned this several times before before but I've put money on McVey at 100/1 (straight bet, no trading involved in case anyone asks). Sacked by Boris but Cabinet experience, would have support from both ERG and Red Wall divide, anti-lockdowner so no association there and has stood before (although badly). If you don't fancy that bet, look for someone who can combine the two factions together - it's a powerful combo in the election race.
    Tend to agree, someone like Mordaunt is probably a value bet and can see how she could reunite the Conservative party. Can't take McVey seriously though.
    A lot of people couldn't take BJ seriously as well...but know what you mean. However, that's probably why she is 100/1.

    Not sure re Mordaunt. Yes, on the pro-Brexit side but she is a southern MP with no clear roots in the North. She is a bit of a Brexiteer version of Liz Truss.
    What links to the north does Boris have?
    He doesn't. It's a discussion about betting on the next leader.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 35,990

    All Johnson did was state a fact for which SKS apologised in 2013 for the failings of the organisation he was in charge of.

    That is not what he did
  • ApplicantApplicant Posts: 3,379

    ydoethur said:

    Endillion said:

    ydoethur said:

    Endillion said:

    ydoethur said:

    Has a supporter of Jeremy Corbyn really just said [moderated]?'

    Because if so, I am thinking @PBModerator might want to consider whether those posts should be left up.

    Wait till he finds out about Corbyn's failure to investigate child abuse in Islington care homes:
    http://labour-uncut.co.uk/2015/08/31/corbyns-silence-over-child-abuse-in-islington-is-typical-of-how-he-picks-and-chooses-his-causes/
    Can I advise deleting the sections of my comment where I quote the individual in question, as PBMod has taken it down.
    Done; thank you.

    Can I advise you also delete it in your response to my response?

    I have already done so in this, my response to your response to my response.
    I thought I had but maybe I hadn't. My brain is not working at optimum speed this morning! Somebody has done it for me if I didn't anyway.

    It's really quite disturbing to see the rabbit hole Corbyn supporters are vanishing down. They're like the People's Front of Judaea on acid.
    A Momentum account was cheering on the mob yesterday.

    image
    The claim that SKS has "abandoned" the working class is intriguing.
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,454
    MrEd said:

    MrEd said:

    MrEd said:

    algarkirk said:

    A long shot prediction, but it seems to me that if there is a new PM in the near future anyone in the current government is too tarred with the brush to be a credible candidate.

    Sunak's choice was between Boris loyalism or resignation. The Savile remarks were the last chance to get out. He has chosen an uneasy path between the two.

    The final two will be out of Hunt, Tugendhat and a couple of other non government figures. FWIW I think it will be close between Hunt and Tugendhat. Either would enable several million people (including me) to take the Tories seriously again, though I doubt if either could beat SKS+ the centre left alliance in the next GE.

    The long shot nature of this prediction is that it requires an outbreak of sanity among a majority of the Tory MPs. Here's hoping.

    I think you are right on any of the current Cabinet not having a chance.

    The lack of a move by Sunak is not that big a surprise when you look at his work background - Goldmans and a hedge fund. Not the sort of people who do anything without rationalising things to the nth degree rather than go with their gut (Sunak wasn't that type of hedge fund guy). I think he has been looking at the polls and thinking "I'm not sure about this". He's probably hoping now he can stay until; BJ steps down and then launch his bid. The problem with that is that BJ bears grudges and will chop him off at the knees. By then, it is too late.

    I think what the current Conservative MP reaction has also shown is that anyone from the Remainer, Home Counties Tory list of candidates is unlikely to have much of a chance. This was the moment for them to at least attempt a takeover by using BJ's sins to cast him out. They have failed.

    Re betting, look for the ERG / Red Wall combo for the surprise candidate. I've mentioned this several times before before but I've put money on McVey at 100/1 (straight bet, no trading involved in case anyone asks). Sacked by Boris but Cabinet experience, would have support from both ERG and Red Wall divide, anti-lockdowner so no association there and has stood before (although badly). If you don't fancy that bet, look for someone who can combine the two factions together - it's a powerful combo in the election race.
    Tend to agree, someone like Mordaunt is probably a value bet and can see how she could reunite the Conservative party. Can't take McVey seriously though.
    A lot of people couldn't take BJ seriously as well...but know what you mean. However, that's probably why she is 100/1.

    Not sure re Mordaunt. Yes, on the pro-Brexit side but she is a southern MP with no clear roots in the North. She is a bit of a Brexiteer version of Liz Truss.
    What links to the north does Boris have?
    He doesn't. It's a discussion about betting on the next leader.
    My point being that not having links to the north didn’t do Boris any harm.
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830
    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Boris Johnson faces growing pressure to make “fulsome apology” and withdraw his “slur” that Sir Keir Starmer failed to prosecute Jimmy Savile - story with @DJBond6873 and @RachaelBurford https://www.standard.co.uk/news/politics/jimmy-savile-slur-boris-johnson-apology-keir-starmer-mps-b981358.html https://twitter.com/nicholascecil/status/1491021896598441985/photo/1

    I can't see how he can apologise now. To do so now would effectively be an admission that his words helped cause the disgraceful scenes yesterday by Corbyn the Elder and his unpleasant fellow nutjobs.

    Meanwhile I see that Corbyn jnr and his erstwhile pillion companion serving Ms Abbott - a serving Labour MP - are backing Putin in his aggression towards Ukraine.

    What a revolting lot they are.
    Corbyn Jr made Ms Abbott into his pillion companion?

    Now that would be a bit of news.

    Or have I misunderstood your comment?
    https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/6168594/diane-abbott-reveals-jeremy-corbyn-took-her-on-a-romantic-camping-trip-when-they-had-a-fling-in-the-70s/
    But that was Corbyn Sr, surely?
    Ah, I see what you mean. I meant Snr = Piers, Jnr = Jeremy.
    Ah, right. Thanks.

    That is not the way I thought of it...
    Major and minor is trad for brothers
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 23,485

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Boris Johnson faces growing pressure to make “fulsome apology” and withdraw his “slur” that Sir Keir Starmer failed to prosecute Jimmy Savile - story with @DJBond6873 and @RachaelBurford https://www.standard.co.uk/news/politics/jimmy-savile-slur-boris-johnson-apology-keir-starmer-mps-b981358.html https://twitter.com/nicholascecil/status/1491021896598441985/photo/1

    I can't see how he can apologise now. To do so now would effectively be an admission that his words helped cause the disgraceful scenes yesterday by Corbyn the Elder and his unpleasant fellow nutjobs.

    Meanwhile I see that Corbyn jnr and his erstwhile pillion companion serving Ms Abbott - a serving Labour MP - are backing Putin in his aggression towards Ukraine.

    What a revolting lot they are.
    Corbyn Jr made Ms Abbott into his pillion companion?

    Now that would be a bit of news.

    Or have I misunderstood your comment?
    https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/6168594/diane-abbott-reveals-jeremy-corbyn-took-her-on-a-romantic-camping-trip-when-they-had-a-fling-in-the-70s/
    But that was Corbyn Sr, surely?
    Ah, I see what you mean. I meant Snr = Piers, Jnr = Jeremy.
    And you were right. Piers is the older brother, so Corbyn Sr he is.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,310
    Anyway apparently the China hawks are now saying that they need someone in Cabinet or at No 10 who is a China hawk to counter the influence of Guto.

    So I give you Nus Ghani - who has been sanctioned by China and is also female and Muslim.

    It would solve quite a few of Boris's other problems - like the inquiry into her complaint which was last seen in some very long grass.

    What's not to love?!
  • MrEdMrEd Posts: 5,578
    edited February 2022

    The mercury is threatening to burst out the top of my whataboutometer this morning.

    And the King of Whatabout, Mr Ed, has barely even got into his stride as yet. But, it's early. Give the man time.
    And I see the Queen of "if it's left wing, it's entirely justified" is back in action. Nothing like double standards eh Anabob, oh I'm sorry "whataboutery"
  • ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Boris Johnson faces growing pressure to make “fulsome apology” and withdraw his “slur” that Sir Keir Starmer failed to prosecute Jimmy Savile - story with @DJBond6873 and @RachaelBurford https://www.standard.co.uk/news/politics/jimmy-savile-slur-boris-johnson-apology-keir-starmer-mps-b981358.html https://twitter.com/nicholascecil/status/1491021896598441985/photo/1

    I can't see how he can apologise now. To do so now would effectively be an admission that his words helped cause the disgraceful scenes yesterday by Corbyn the Elder and his unpleasant fellow nutjobs.

    Meanwhile I see that Corbyn jnr and his erstwhile pillion companion serving Ms Abbott - a serving Labour MP - are backing Putin in his aggression towards Ukraine.

    What a revolting lot they are.
    Corbyn Jr made Ms Abbott into his pillion companion?

    Now that would be a bit of news.

    Or have I misunderstood your comment?
    https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/6168594/diane-abbott-reveals-jeremy-corbyn-took-her-on-a-romantic-camping-trip-when-they-had-a-fling-in-the-70s/
    But that was Corbyn Sr, surely?
    I don't want to speak for anyone else, but I think Corbyn the Elder and Corbyn the Younger might have been closer to the intended meaning.
  • FrankBoothFrankBooth Posts: 9,826

    Scott_xP said:
    I’m starting to think that that comment has cost Labour any chance of a majority at the next election.
    Now are you sure when you say Labour you don't mean the Conservatives?
  • RH1992RH1992 Posts: 788
    edited February 2022

    Only dipping in and out today, but was interested to read that both of the proper socialists on the forum are voting Tory.

    Hadn't realised that a Conservative government was the path to True Socialism.

    To be honest if there are just bad options I usually don't vote but Starmer is such a spectacularly bad option that I might have to vote Conservative.

    Neither option is the path to 'True Socialism' but at this point as a left winger I would only go for Starmer if I was a full on accelerationist, which I've never fully bought into. I'm sure it has merits in some circumstances
    Here's what I don't understand. From the left's position it should be self-evident that a Labour government is better than a Conservative government. Even if you don't like the Labour leader or some of its perspectives aren't as clear as your own, it is *better* for the cause of the Labour movement and for Labour voters than any Conservative government.

    Better to get 70% of what you want than 0%. And yet you and BJO and all the other true socialists choose the 0% option...
    I have never voted for Labour at a General Election, I've always voted for a Socialist candidate, or for the Greens, on the basis that if you don't vote for what you want you will certainly never get it (clearly I've voted for what I wanted and still didn't get it, but, well).

    However, I'd still recognise a centrist Labour government as superior to a Tory government, even if it's just that a centrist Labour government makes things worse more slowly than a Tory government.

    I guess some people will react strangely to the major disappointment that was the Corbyn period (2015-2019). I don't think the Labour centrists ever gave Corbyn a fair go, and I can understand people being bitter about that, but Corbyn did enough wrong on his own that it's hard not to blame him for his eventual failure. Blaming the Labour centrists alone is denial.
    I'd say the Labour centrists gave him a fair go after the 2017 election when he outperformed expectations. Unfortunately, Corbyn's response to Salisbury in March 2018 was the start of the terminal decline. It may have happened anyway, but that moment was one where public perception changed.
  • ApplicantApplicant Posts: 3,379

    Missed the thread change, so FPT:

    YBarddCwsc said:


    I am not sure I agree. This tactic is very old.

    LBJ: "‘I know it’s not true, but let’s make the sonofabitch deny it.”

    That's right. Where we are is:

    * Virtually everyone familiar with the role of the DPP thinks the link is an obvious distraction and pretty disreputable
    * Joe Bloggs who hasn't followed it closely probably thinks the Johnson is unscrupulous but there's now a query about Starmer
    * A striking number of Tory MPs are really disgusted, possibly to the point of leaving the party

    The cynical question is whether the benefit for the Tories in having a bit of mud stick on Starmer and getting some distraction from Partygate is sufficient for the downside of actual defections.

    IMO Joe Bloggs won't give it much thought once the immediate debate has moved on, while some MPs will remain alienated, so it's a net negative for the Tories. Using us as a sounding board, I note that only Mexicanpete is impressed.

    It is shrewd and sound reasoning like that, Nick, that makes you such a formidable Diplomacy player.
    The point we are missing is that Boris was being criticised at that point for *civil service* parties in no 10.

    Starmer can’t use that line now without people saying “how come you aren’t responsible for your staff at CPS”.

    Nasty and crude but effective politics.
    I'm pretty sure that was Boris's intention (and said as much here on the day IIRC), but given how badly it's backfired I don't think it will actually work.
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830
    Cyclefree said:

    Anyway apparently the China hawks are now saying that they need someone in Cabinet or at No 10 who is a China hawk to counter the influence of Guto.

    So I give you Nus Ghani - who has been sanctioned by China and is also female and Muslim.

    It would solve quite a few of Boris's other problems - like the inquiry into her complaint which was last seen in some very long grass.

    What's not to love?!

    She is pretty hostile to Johnson over the doggies for darkies deal.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 35,990
    Deck chair reshuffle underway
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,373

    MrEd said:

    MrEd said:

    MrEd said:

    algarkirk said:

    A long shot prediction, but it seems to me that if there is a new PM in the near future anyone in the current government is too tarred with the brush to be a credible candidate.

    Sunak's choice was between Boris loyalism or resignation. The Savile remarks were the last chance to get out. He has chosen an uneasy path between the two.

    The final two will be out of Hunt, Tugendhat and a couple of other non government figures. FWIW I think it will be close between Hunt and Tugendhat. Either would enable several million people (including me) to take the Tories seriously again, though I doubt if either could beat SKS+ the centre left alliance in the next GE.

    The long shot nature of this prediction is that it requires an outbreak of sanity among a majority of the Tory MPs. Here's hoping.

    I think you are right on any of the current Cabinet not having a chance.

    The lack of a move by Sunak is not that big a surprise when you look at his work background - Goldmans and a hedge fund. Not the sort of people who do anything without rationalising things to the nth degree rather than go with their gut (Sunak wasn't that type of hedge fund guy). I think he has been looking at the polls and thinking "I'm not sure about this". He's probably hoping now he can stay until; BJ steps down and then launch his bid. The problem with that is that BJ bears grudges and will chop him off at the knees. By then, it is too late.

    I think what the current Conservative MP reaction has also shown is that anyone from the Remainer, Home Counties Tory list of candidates is unlikely to have much of a chance. This was the moment for them to at least attempt a takeover by using BJ's sins to cast him out. They have failed.

    Re betting, look for the ERG / Red Wall combo for the surprise candidate. I've mentioned this several times before before but I've put money on McVey at 100/1 (straight bet, no trading involved in case anyone asks). Sacked by Boris but Cabinet experience, would have support from both ERG and Red Wall divide, anti-lockdowner so no association there and has stood before (although badly). If you don't fancy that bet, look for someone who can combine the two factions together - it's a powerful combo in the election race.
    Tend to agree, someone like Mordaunt is probably a value bet and can see how she could reunite the Conservative party. Can't take McVey seriously though.
    A lot of people couldn't take BJ seriously as well...but know what you mean. However, that's probably why she is 100/1.

    Not sure re Mordaunt. Yes, on the pro-Brexit side but she is a southern MP with no clear roots in the North. She is a bit of a Brexiteer version of Liz Truss.
    What links to the north does Boris have?
    He doesn't. It's a discussion about betting on the next leader.
    My point being that not having links to the north didn’t do Boris any harm.
    Who was the last Tory leader with links to the North? Hague? And before him, I would suggest Macmillan, MP for Stockton on and off until 1945, Churchill, MP for first Oldham and then Manchester North West, and before that Balfour, MP for Manchester East?

    There haven't exactly been lots. Before that just about the only one would have been Derby.
  • MrEdMrEd Posts: 5,578

    MrEd said:

    MrEd said:

    MrEd said:

    algarkirk said:

    A long shot prediction, but it seems to me that if there is a new PM in the near future anyone in the current government is too tarred with the brush to be a credible candidate.

    Sunak's choice was between Boris loyalism or resignation. The Savile remarks were the last chance to get out. He has chosen an uneasy path between the two.

    The final two will be out of Hunt, Tugendhat and a couple of other non government figures. FWIW I think it will be close between Hunt and Tugendhat. Either would enable several million people (including me) to take the Tories seriously again, though I doubt if either could beat SKS+ the centre left alliance in the next GE.

    The long shot nature of this prediction is that it requires an outbreak of sanity among a majority of the Tory MPs. Here's hoping.

    I think you are right on any of the current Cabinet not having a chance.

    The lack of a move by Sunak is not that big a surprise when you look at his work background - Goldmans and a hedge fund. Not the sort of people who do anything without rationalising things to the nth degree rather than go with their gut (Sunak wasn't that type of hedge fund guy). I think he has been looking at the polls and thinking "I'm not sure about this". He's probably hoping now he can stay until; BJ steps down and then launch his bid. The problem with that is that BJ bears grudges and will chop him off at the knees. By then, it is too late.

    I think what the current Conservative MP reaction has also shown is that anyone from the Remainer, Home Counties Tory list of candidates is unlikely to have much of a chance. This was the moment for them to at least attempt a takeover by using BJ's sins to cast him out. They have failed.

    Re betting, look for the ERG / Red Wall combo for the surprise candidate. I've mentioned this several times before before but I've put money on McVey at 100/1 (straight bet, no trading involved in case anyone asks). Sacked by Boris but Cabinet experience, would have support from both ERG and Red Wall divide, anti-lockdowner so no association there and has stood before (although badly). If you don't fancy that bet, look for someone who can combine the two factions together - it's a powerful combo in the election race.
    Tend to agree, someone like Mordaunt is probably a value bet and can see how she could reunite the Conservative party. Can't take McVey seriously though.
    A lot of people couldn't take BJ seriously as well...but know what you mean. However, that's probably why she is 100/1.

    Not sure re Mordaunt. Yes, on the pro-Brexit side but she is a southern MP with no clear roots in the North. She is a bit of a Brexiteer version of Liz Truss.
    What links to the north does Boris have?
    He doesn't. It's a discussion about betting on the next leader.
    My point being that not having links to the north didn’t do Boris any harm.
    Fair point. But BJ brought something different to the table, namely he could win the Tories in areas they couldn't win otherwise (eg London). I don't think Mordaunt has that. She doesn't strike me as someone who feel particularly at ease pounding the streets of Hartlepool. Might be wrong but I haven't seen anything of it so far.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,070
    .
    IshmaelZ said:

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Boris Johnson faces growing pressure to make “fulsome apology” and withdraw his “slur” that Sir Keir Starmer failed to prosecute Jimmy Savile - story with @DJBond6873 and @RachaelBurford https://www.standard.co.uk/news/politics/jimmy-savile-slur-boris-johnson-apology-keir-starmer-mps-b981358.html https://twitter.com/nicholascecil/status/1491021896598441985/photo/1

    I can't see how he can apologise now. To do so now would effectively be an admission that his words helped cause the disgraceful scenes yesterday by Corbyn the Elder and his unpleasant fellow nutjobs.

    Meanwhile I see that Corbyn jnr and his erstwhile pillion companion serving Ms Abbott - a serving Labour MP - are backing Putin in his aggression towards Ukraine.

    What a revolting lot they are.
    Corbyn Jr made Ms Abbott into his pillion companion?

    Now that would be a bit of news.

    Or have I misunderstood your comment?
    https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/6168594/diane-abbott-reveals-jeremy-corbyn-took-her-on-a-romantic-camping-trip-when-they-had-a-fling-in-the-70s/
    But that was Corbyn Sr, surely?
    Ah, I see what you mean. I meant Snr = Piers, Jnr = Jeremy.
    Ah, right. Thanks.

    That is not the way I thought of it...
    Major and minor is trad for brothers
    Which one was the greater arse ?
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,373
    Scott_xP said:

    Deck chair reshuffle underway

    Really? Source?
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,424
    Farooq said:

    Boris's dead cat worked. Week two and even the nation's premier politics site is still talking about the smear rather than any other issue that might threaten Boris's hegemony.

    Yup, exactly right. Boris isn't totally stupid, he's just an arsehole.
    He's not stupid at all. Possibly foolish sometimes, but he's cunning and devious.
  • moonshinemoonshine Posts: 5,747
    Let me get this straight. The chief whip is accused by his own side of blackmail and delivering a racist message to a sacked minister. Rather than being suspended pending investigation, he is instead appointed Leader of the Commons? Is there any debasement of our democracy that this lot won’t stoop to?
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,348

    Only dipping in and out today, but was interested to read that both of the proper socialists on the forum are voting Tory.

    Hadn't realised that a Conservative government was the path to True Socialism.

    To be honest if there are just bad options I usually don't vote but Starmer is such a spectacularly bad option that I might have to vote Conservative.

    Neither option is the path to 'True Socialism' but at this point as a left winger I would only go for Starmer if I was a full on accelerationist, which I've never fully bought into. I'm sure it has merits in some circumstances
    Here's what I don't understand. From the left's position it should be self-evident that a Labour government is better than a Conservative government. Even if you don't like the Labour leader or some of its perspectives aren't as clear as your own, it is *better* for the cause of the Labour movement and for Labour voters than any Conservative government.

    Better to get 70% of what you want than 0%. And yet you and BJO and all the other true socialists choose the 0% option...
    From their point of view, a Conservative government is more likely to result in a true socialist revolution, whereas a Labour government will block it.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 18,355
    ydoethur said:

    Only dipping in and out today, but was interested to read that both of the proper socialists on the forum are voting Tory.

    Hadn't realised that a Conservative government was the path to True Socialism.

    To be honest if there are just bad options I usually don't vote but Starmer is such a spectacularly bad option that I might have to vote Conservative.

    Neither option is the path to 'True Socialism' but at this point as a left winger I would only go for Starmer if I was a full on accelerationist, which I've never fully bought into. I'm sure it has merits in some circumstances
    Here's what I don't understand. From the left's position it should be self-evident that a Labour government is better than a Conservative government. Even if you don't like the Labour leader or some of its perspectives aren't as clear as your own, it is *better* for the cause of the Labour movement and for Labour voters than any Conservative government.

    Better to get 70% of what you want than 0%. And yet you and BJO and all the other true socialists choose the 0% option...
    Has it occurred to you that giving people some of 'what they want' makes them less likely to sign up to a programme to take everything?

    Every advance made by Labour within the existing parameters makes the overthrow of the capitalist system that much more difficult to attain.

    It's no coincidence, from that point of view, that the world's first Communist government succeeded Europe's most absolutist monarchy.
    That's the sort of view that Trotsky ridiculed as in the 1930s. I believe the German Communists used to argue that Hitler would make things so bad that they'd take over afterwards.

    It's precisely the opposite. Achieving some moderate reforms builds confidence and creates hope. It makes it more likely that people will support further reforms, and not back down in the face of opposition.
  • ydoethur said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Deck chair reshuffle underway

    Really? Source?
    BBC just now
  • ApplicantApplicant Posts: 3,379

    It would appear to me that the most recent Prime Minister to have neither been LOTO or have previously held a Cabinet post was Henry Addington in 1801, having only previously been speaker. Before that point, you'd need to consult a history book on what was or wasn't a Cabinet role.

    The vast majority had senior Cabinet roles.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_prime_ministers_of_the_United_Kingdom_and_their_previous_offices

    True though that is, it seems to me that the role of select committe chair has been enhanced over the last 10-20 years to the point where it's not implausible that one could become PM.
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830
    ydoethur said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Deck chair reshuffle underway

    Really? Source?
    https://mobile.twitter.com/GuidoFawkes/status/1491027172621959180
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 21,298
    Scott_xP said:

    NEW: China hawks are set demand No 10 appoint one of their own to compensate for Guto "Huawei" Harri's presence in the building

    They want Iain Duncan Smith to be appointed to cabinet or someone frm anti-China movement as SpAd

    Follows @MrHarryCole scoop on lobbying for tech firm

    https://twitter.com/Gabriel_Pogrund/status/1491024364141428740

    I will laugh if IDS returns to front-line politics.
    For a complete muppet, he does surprisingly well.

    Presumably the other muppets are even more muppetty.
  • MoonRabbitMoonRabbit Posts: 13,497
    On topic. I agree with Mike. In fact it was TSE who posted a couple of weeks ago in the leadership election (which looked possible back then, lot less likely now) he wouldn’t vote for anyone in the current government. A couple of weeks ago I thought Rishi Sunak was shoe in if there was a vacancy, I now think he has next to no chance. If it’s true there is photo of Sunak at lockdown Party stood next to Boris, both with glass in hand, that finishes Sunak as candidate this time around, or do you disagree with that? How can you disagree with that, both Boris and Sunak would get same slap from police.

    From outside the cabinet I also think Mark Harper is in with serious chance. In the mad Monday debate, where Boris was abysmal and enshrined his legacy as Britain’s Trump, Harper politely acknowledged Diane Abbot and asked the same question. He speaks very well.

    very much on Topic, if it’s Harper v Tugendhat who wins? Harper easily wins that, as Turgendhat will appeal to those who want to move the Conservatives to centre, Harper appeal to those who want to keep it off to the right, Harper will get support of more MPs and more Party members, keep us to the right no drift to centre easily wins the next Tory leadership contest, there’s currently more votes for the platform.

    What part of my analysis are you saying is wrong, and why?
  • eekeek Posts: 28,368
    MrEd said:

    MrEd said:

    MrEd said:

    MrEd said:

    algarkirk said:

    A long shot prediction, but it seems to me that if there is a new PM in the near future anyone in the current government is too tarred with the brush to be a credible candidate.

    Sunak's choice was between Boris loyalism or resignation. The Savile remarks were the last chance to get out. He has chosen an uneasy path between the two.

    The final two will be out of Hunt, Tugendhat and a couple of other non government figures. FWIW I think it will be close between Hunt and Tugendhat. Either would enable several million people (including me) to take the Tories seriously again, though I doubt if either could beat SKS+ the centre left alliance in the next GE.

    The long shot nature of this prediction is that it requires an outbreak of sanity among a majority of the Tory MPs. Here's hoping.

    I think you are right on any of the current Cabinet not having a chance.

    The lack of a move by Sunak is not that big a surprise when you look at his work background - Goldmans and a hedge fund. Not the sort of people who do anything without rationalising things to the nth degree rather than go with their gut (Sunak wasn't that type of hedge fund guy). I think he has been looking at the polls and thinking "I'm not sure about this". He's probably hoping now he can stay until; BJ steps down and then launch his bid. The problem with that is that BJ bears grudges and will chop him off at the knees. By then, it is too late.

    I think what the current Conservative MP reaction has also shown is that anyone from the Remainer, Home Counties Tory list of candidates is unlikely to have much of a chance. This was the moment for them to at least attempt a takeover by using BJ's sins to cast him out. They have failed.

    Re betting, look for the ERG / Red Wall combo for the surprise candidate. I've mentioned this several times before before but I've put money on McVey at 100/1 (straight bet, no trading involved in case anyone asks). Sacked by Boris but Cabinet experience, would have support from both ERG and Red Wall divide, anti-lockdowner so no association there and has stood before (although badly). If you don't fancy that bet, look for someone who can combine the two factions together - it's a powerful combo in the election race.
    Tend to agree, someone like Mordaunt is probably a value bet and can see how she could reunite the Conservative party. Can't take McVey seriously though.
    A lot of people couldn't take BJ seriously as well...but know what you mean. However, that's probably why she is 100/1.

    Not sure re Mordaunt. Yes, on the pro-Brexit side but she is a southern MP with no clear roots in the North. She is a bit of a Brexiteer version of Liz Truss.
    What links to the north does Boris have?
    He doesn't. It's a discussion about betting on the next leader.
    My point being that not having links to the north didn’t do Boris any harm.
    Fair point. But BJ brought something different to the table, namely he could win the Tories in areas they couldn't win otherwise (eg London). I don't think Mordaunt has that. She doesn't strike me as someone who feel particularly at ease pounding the streets of Hartlepool. Might be wrong but I haven't seen anything of it so far.
    The Tory party's problem is that none of the other options are likely to win the Red Wall seats they need at the next election.

    1 thing that is keeping Bozo in place is the fact that he did it last time around and MPs hope he could do it again. Personally I don't see it and actually think Bozo will do more harm than good if he stays in place.
  • ApplicantApplicant Posts: 3,379
    Scott_xP said:

    Boris Johnson faces growing pressure to make “fulsome apology” and withdraw his “slur” that Sir Keir Starmer failed to prosecute Jimmy Savile - story with @DJBond6873 and @RachaelBurford https://www.standard.co.uk/news/politics/jimmy-savile-slur-boris-johnson-apology-keir-starmer-mps-b981358.html https://twitter.com/nicholascecil/status/1491021896598441985/photo/1

    https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/fulsome

    Sense (2) or (3), I would imagine...

  • Kevin Schofield
    @KevinASchofield
    ·
    11m
    NEW: PM's spokesman confirms mini-reshuffle will happen this afternoon. "Small number of ministerial changes," he says.
  • ChrisChris Posts: 11,748

    Missed the thread change, so FPT:

    YBarddCwsc said:


    I am not sure I agree. This tactic is very old.

    LBJ: "‘I know it’s not true, but let’s make the sonofabitch deny it.”

    That's right. Where we are is:

    * Virtually everyone familiar with the role of the DPP thinks the link is an obvious distraction and pretty disreputable
    * Joe Bloggs who hasn't followed it closely probably thinks the Johnson is unscrupulous but there's now a query about Starmer
    * A striking number of Tory MPs are really disgusted, possibly to the point of leaving the party

    The cynical question is whether the benefit for the Tories in having a bit of mud stick on Starmer and getting some distraction from Partygate is sufficient for the downside of actual defections.

    IMO Joe Bloggs won't give it much thought once the immediate debate has moved on, while some MPs will remain alienated, so it's a net negative for the Tories. Using us as a sounding board, I note that only Mexicanpete is impressed.

    It is shrewd and sound reasoning like that, Nick, that makes you such a formidable Diplomacy player.
    The point we are missing is that Boris was being criticised at that point for *civil service* parties in no 10.
    That's nonsense. He was being criticised for everything, including his own birthday party and a party in his own flat.
  • WhisperingOracleWhisperingOracle Posts: 9,133
    edited February 2022

    ydoethur said:

    Only dipping in and out today, but was interested to read that both of the proper socialists on the forum are voting Tory.

    Hadn't realised that a Conservative government was the path to True Socialism.

    To be honest if there are just bad options I usually don't vote but Starmer is such a spectacularly bad option that I might have to vote Conservative.

    Neither option is the path to 'True Socialism' but at this point as a left winger I would only go for Starmer if I was a full on accelerationist, which I've never fully bought into. I'm sure it has merits in some circumstances
    Here's what I don't understand. From the left's position it should be self-evident that a Labour government is better than a Conservative government. Even if you don't like the Labour leader or some of its perspectives aren't as clear as your own, it is *better* for the cause of the Labour movement and for Labour voters than any Conservative government.

    Better to get 70% of what you want than 0%. And yet you and BJO and all the other true socialists choose the 0% option...
    Has it occurred to you that giving people some of 'what they want' makes them less likely to sign up to a programme to take everything?

    Every advance made by Labour within the existing parameters makes the overthrow of the capitalist system that much more difficult to attain.

    It's no coincidence, from that point of view, that the world's first Communist government succeeded Europe's most absolutist monarchy.
    That's the sort of view that Trotsky ridiculed as in the 1930s. I believe the German Communists used to argue that Hitler would make things so bad that they'd take over afterwards.

    It's precisely the opposite. Achieving some moderate reforms builds confidence and creates hope. It makes it more likely that people will support further reforms, and not back down in the face of opposition.
    Russia, and possibly much of the rest of the world, could have had a very different future if the earlier revolutionary attempt of 1905, which included a very wide base of support from Marxists and Liberals to Social Democrats, had succeeded. One of the great tragedies of history.
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 23,485
    MrEd said:

    The mercury is threatening to burst out the top of my whataboutometer this morning.

    And the King of Whatabout, Mr Ed, has barely even got into his stride as yet. But, it's early. Give the man time.
    And I see the Queen of "if it's left wing, it's entirely justified" is back in action. Nothing like double standards eh Anabob, oh I'm sorry "whataboutery"
    QED
  • More or less off topic, listened to the latest episode of R4’s The Gathering Storm which featured a lot of Mike Flynn. He seems to be the absolute boy for QAnonists and Trumpers. Is there any chance of him being a candidate in 2024 or will it be his endorsement that counts?
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,424

    Scott_xP said:

    Boris Johnson faces growing pressure to make “fulsome apology” and withdraw his “slur” that Sir Keir Starmer failed to prosecute Jimmy Savile - story with @DJBond6873 and @RachaelBurford https://www.standard.co.uk/news/politics/jimmy-savile-slur-boris-johnson-apology-keir-starmer-mps-b981358.html https://twitter.com/nicholascecil/status/1491021896598441985/photo/1

    I can't see how he can apologise now. To do so now would effectively be an admission that his words helped cause the disgraceful scenes yesterday by Corbyn the Elder and his unpleasant fellow nutjobs.

    Meanwhile I see that Corbyn jnr and his erstwhile pillion companion Ms Abbott - a serving Labour MP - are backing Putin in his aggression towards Ukraine.

    What a revolting lot they are.
    'pillion' companion?
    Has predictive text struck again?
  • ApplicantApplicant Posts: 3,379
    RobD said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Yet another 'Brexit benefit' that's been shown up for the fallacy that it is. Consumer compensation could be cut from £220 to less than £25.

    https://www.cityam.com/brexit-bus-uk-flight-compensation-delays-drop-220-25/

    What an incredibly misleading headline.

    Current rules: 0h59 minutes late: no refund
    New rules: 0h59 minutes late: no refund

    Current rules: 1h59 minutes late: no refund
    New rules: 1h59 minutes late: 25% refund

    Current rules: 2h59 minutes late: no refund
    New rules: 2h59 minutes late: 50% refund

    Current rules: 3h00 minutes late: 100% refund
    New rules: 3h00 minutes late: 100% refund

    How is that not a win for the consumer?
    The argument is that people whose flights have been delayed won't bother to claim.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,373
    IshmaelZ said:

    ydoethur said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Deck chair reshuffle underway

    Really? Source?
    https://mobile.twitter.com/GuidoFawkes/status/1491027172621959180
    That led me to see this rather frightening tweet:

    https://mobile.twitter.com/GuidoFawkes/status/1491026861874302978

    'Mogg heads for No. 10.'

    FUCKING HELL NO.
  • FrankBoothFrankBooth Posts: 9,826
    I just don't understand why the MPs are not moving on Johnson. Is it because the grassroots are still behind the man?

    It may be I have to revise my view on Tory ruthlessness. I was surprised to see that Iain Duncan Smith, largely thought to be a dead duck, only lost his vote by 90 to 75.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,926
    Applicant said:

    RobD said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Yet another 'Brexit benefit' that's been shown up for the fallacy that it is. Consumer compensation could be cut from £220 to less than £25.

    https://www.cityam.com/brexit-bus-uk-flight-compensation-delays-drop-220-25/

    What an incredibly misleading headline.

    Current rules: 0h59 minutes late: no refund
    New rules: 0h59 minutes late: no refund

    Current rules: 1h59 minutes late: no refund
    New rules: 1h59 minutes late: 25% refund

    Current rules: 2h59 minutes late: no refund
    New rules: 2h59 minutes late: 50% refund

    Current rules: 3h00 minutes late: 100% refund
    New rules: 3h00 minutes late: 100% refund

    How is that not a win for the consumer?
    The argument is that people whose flights have been delayed won't bother to claim.
    How is that even an argument? The headline said the compensation would be cut from £220 to £25, in which case they would have to claim.
  • MrEd said:

    MrEd said:

    MrEd said:

    MrEd said:

    algarkirk said:

    A long shot prediction, but it seems to me that if there is a new PM in the near future anyone in the current government is too tarred with the brush to be a credible candidate.

    Sunak's choice was between Boris loyalism or resignation. The Savile remarks were the last chance to get out. He has chosen an uneasy path between the two.

    The final two will be out of Hunt, Tugendhat and a couple of other non government figures. FWIW I think it will be close between Hunt and Tugendhat. Either would enable several million people (including me) to take the Tories seriously again, though I doubt if either could beat SKS+ the centre left alliance in the next GE.

    The long shot nature of this prediction is that it requires an outbreak of sanity among a majority of the Tory MPs. Here's hoping.

    I think you are right on any of the current Cabinet not having a chance.

    The lack of a move by Sunak is not that big a surprise when you look at his work background - Goldmans and a hedge fund. Not the sort of people who do anything without rationalising things to the nth degree rather than go with their gut (Sunak wasn't that type of hedge fund guy). I think he has been looking at the polls and thinking "I'm not sure about this". He's probably hoping now he can stay until; BJ steps down and then launch his bid. The problem with that is that BJ bears grudges and will chop him off at the knees. By then, it is too late.

    I think what the current Conservative MP reaction has also shown is that anyone from the Remainer, Home Counties Tory list of candidates is unlikely to have much of a chance. This was the moment for them to at least attempt a takeover by using BJ's sins to cast him out. They have failed.

    Re betting, look for the ERG / Red Wall combo for the surprise candidate. I've mentioned this several times before before but I've put money on McVey at 100/1 (straight bet, no trading involved in case anyone asks). Sacked by Boris but Cabinet experience, would have support from both ERG and Red Wall divide, anti-lockdowner so no association there and has stood before (although badly). If you don't fancy that bet, look for someone who can combine the two factions together - it's a powerful combo in the election race.
    Tend to agree, someone like Mordaunt is probably a value bet and can see how she could reunite the Conservative party. Can't take McVey seriously though.
    A lot of people couldn't take BJ seriously as well...but know what you mean. However, that's probably why she is 100/1.

    Not sure re Mordaunt. Yes, on the pro-Brexit side but she is a southern MP with no clear roots in the North. She is a bit of a Brexiteer version of Liz Truss.
    What links to the north does Boris have?
    He doesn't. It's a discussion about betting on the next leader.
    My point being that not having links to the north didn’t do Boris any harm.
    Fair point. But BJ brought something different to the table, namely he could win the Tories in areas they couldn't win otherwise (eg London). I don't think Mordaunt has that. She doesn't strike me as someone who feel particularly at ease pounding the streets of Hartlepool. Might be wrong but I haven't seen anything of it so far.
    Isn't Mordaunt's seat more similar to a lot of red wall seats demographically though? At least more so than Tugendhat or even Sunak (even though his seat borders Durham/Teesside red wall seats). It voted Labour 1997-2010 but voted 60%+ for Brexit and now has a huge Tory majority.


  • eekeek Posts: 28,368
    Applicant said:

    RobD said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Yet another 'Brexit benefit' that's been shown up for the fallacy that it is. Consumer compensation could be cut from £220 to less than £25.

    https://www.cityam.com/brexit-bus-uk-flight-compensation-delays-drop-220-25/

    What an incredibly misleading headline.

    Current rules: 0h59 minutes late: no refund
    New rules: 0h59 minutes late: no refund

    Current rules: 1h59 minutes late: no refund
    New rules: 1h59 minutes late: 25% refund

    Current rules: 2h59 minutes late: no refund
    New rules: 2h59 minutes late: 50% refund

    Current rules: 3h00 minutes late: 100% refund
    New rules: 3h00 minutes late: 100% refund

    How is that not a win for the consumer?
    The argument is that people whose flights have been delayed won't bother to claim.
    In this day and age? Nope someone will automate the process and charge a significant percentage for doing the actual work.
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,523

    Only dipping in and out today, but was interested to read that both of the proper socialists on the forum are voting Tory.

    Hadn't realised that a Conservative government was the path to True Socialism.

    To be honest if there are just bad options I usually don't vote but Starmer is such a spectacularly bad option that I might have to vote Conservative.

    Neither option is the path to 'True Socialism' but at this point as a left winger I would only go for Starmer if I was a full on accelerationist, which I've never fully bought into. I'm sure it has merits in some circumstances
    Here's what I don't understand. From the left's position it should be self-evident that a Labour government is better than a Conservative government. Even if you don't like the Labour leader or some of its perspectives aren't as clear as your own, it is *better* for the cause of the Labour movement and for Labour voters than any Conservative government.

    Better to get 70% of what you want than 0%. And yet you and BJO and all the other true socialists choose the 0% option...
    I have never voted for Labour at a General Election, I've always voted for a Socialist candidate, or for the Greens, on the basis that if you don't vote for what you want you will certainly never get it (clearly I've voted for what I wanted and still didn't get it, but, well).

    However, I'd still recognise a centrist Labour government as superior to a Tory government, even if it's just that a centrist Labour government makes things worse more slowly than a Tory government.

    I guess some people will react strangely to the major disappointment that was the Corbyn period (2015-2019). I don't think the Labour centrists ever gave Corbyn a fair go, and I can understand people being bitter about that, but Corbyn did enough wrong on his own that it's hard not to blame him for his eventual failure. Blaming the Labour centrists alone is denial.
    Yes, that's a very fair summary - and I'm saying that as someone who's Jewish and still fond of Jeremy Corbyn. BigG and Jezziah are just weird in contemplating voting Tory. They should vote for the best available option and then campaign - even without short-term prospect of success - to go further. It's the normal rational left-wing position and always has been, and one endorsed by Corbyn, McDonnell and everyone else on the Parliamentary left.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,277

    Leon said:

    The mercury is threatening to burst out the top of my whataboutometer this morning.

    A stunning contender for “World’s most convoluted admission by an elderly Scotsman that he is actually having a wank”
    You seem feisty if resolutely leaden footed today. Jet lagged or still kicking the arse out of World of Dildos expenses in Colombo?
    Certainly quite chipper


    The Sri Lankans have finally - FINALLY - realised who I am - an era-defining knapper with my own column on the Gazette - and they are suddenly throwing freebies at me

    Got dinner, this eve, at supposedly the best Indian in the capital

    And on Thursday I've been invited to THE BEST CRAB RESTAURANT IN THE WORLD (and the "29th best restaurant in Asia") where they are "curating" me a meal

    https://edition.cnn.com/travel/article/ministry-of-crab-sri-lanka-cmb/index.html


    I have never had a meal "curated" before. Hmm

    Anyway, yeah, good vibes all round
  • Beibheirli_CBeibheirli_C Posts: 8,163
    edited February 2022

    Scott_xP said:

    Boris Johnson faces growing pressure to make “fulsome apology” and withdraw his “slur” that Sir Keir Starmer failed to prosecute Jimmy Savile - story with @DJBond6873 and @RachaelBurford https://www.standard.co.uk/news/politics/jimmy-savile-slur-boris-johnson-apology-keir-starmer-mps-b981358.html https://twitter.com/nicholascecil/status/1491021896598441985/photo/1

    I can't see how he can apologise now. To do so now would effectively be an admission that his words helped cause the disgraceful scenes yesterday by Corbyn the Elder and his unpleasant fellow nutjobs.

    Meanwhile I see that Corbyn jnr and his erstwhile pillion companion Ms Abbott - a serving Labour MP - are backing Putin in his aggression towards Ukraine.

    What a revolting lot they are.
    'pillion' companion?
    Has predictive text struck again?
    I understand that to be a reference to a purported motorcycle trip with Corbyn in their younger days. Revolutionary Eastern Europe IIRC...

  • Kevin Schofield
    @KevinASchofield
    ·
    11m
    NEW: PM's spokesman confirms mini-reshuffle will happen this afternoon. "Small number of ministerial changes," he says.

    What? Another one?
  • carnforthcarnforth Posts: 4,586
    eek said:

    Applicant said:

    RobD said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Yet another 'Brexit benefit' that's been shown up for the fallacy that it is. Consumer compensation could be cut from £220 to less than £25.

    https://www.cityam.com/brexit-bus-uk-flight-compensation-delays-drop-220-25/

    What an incredibly misleading headline.

    Current rules: 0h59 minutes late: no refund
    New rules: 0h59 minutes late: no refund

    Current rules: 1h59 minutes late: no refund
    New rules: 1h59 minutes late: 25% refund

    Current rules: 2h59 minutes late: no refund
    New rules: 2h59 minutes late: 50% refund

    Current rules: 3h00 minutes late: 100% refund
    New rules: 3h00 minutes late: 100% refund

    How is that not a win for the consumer?
    The argument is that people whose flights have been delayed won't bother to claim.
    In this day and age? Nope someone will automate the process and charge a significant percentage for doing the actual work.
    Or simply mandate it be automatic, at least for credit card payments.
  • ydoethur said:

    MrEd said:

    MrEd said:

    MrEd said:

    algarkirk said:

    A long shot prediction, but it seems to me that if there is a new PM in the near future anyone in the current government is too tarred with the brush to be a credible candidate.

    Sunak's choice was between Boris loyalism or resignation. The Savile remarks were the last chance to get out. He has chosen an uneasy path between the two.

    The final two will be out of Hunt, Tugendhat and a couple of other non government figures. FWIW I think it will be close between Hunt and Tugendhat. Either would enable several million people (including me) to take the Tories seriously again, though I doubt if either could beat SKS+ the centre left alliance in the next GE.

    The long shot nature of this prediction is that it requires an outbreak of sanity among a majority of the Tory MPs. Here's hoping.

    I think you are right on any of the current Cabinet not having a chance.

    The lack of a move by Sunak is not that big a surprise when you look at his work background - Goldmans and a hedge fund. Not the sort of people who do anything without rationalising things to the nth degree rather than go with their gut (Sunak wasn't that type of hedge fund guy). I think he has been looking at the polls and thinking "I'm not sure about this". He's probably hoping now he can stay until; BJ steps down and then launch his bid. The problem with that is that BJ bears grudges and will chop him off at the knees. By then, it is too late.

    I think what the current Conservative MP reaction has also shown is that anyone from the Remainer, Home Counties Tory list of candidates is unlikely to have much of a chance. This was the moment for them to at least attempt a takeover by using BJ's sins to cast him out. They have failed.

    Re betting, look for the ERG / Red Wall combo for the surprise candidate. I've mentioned this several times before before but I've put money on McVey at 100/1 (straight bet, no trading involved in case anyone asks). Sacked by Boris but Cabinet experience, would have support from both ERG and Red Wall divide, anti-lockdowner so no association there and has stood before (although badly). If you don't fancy that bet, look for someone who can combine the two factions together - it's a powerful combo in the election race.
    Tend to agree, someone like Mordaunt is probably a value bet and can see how she could reunite the Conservative party. Can't take McVey seriously though.
    A lot of people couldn't take BJ seriously as well...but know what you mean. However, that's probably why she is 100/1.

    Not sure re Mordaunt. Yes, on the pro-Brexit side but she is a southern MP with no clear roots in the North. She is a bit of a Brexiteer version of Liz Truss.
    What links to the north does Boris have?
    He doesn't. It's a discussion about betting on the next leader.
    My point being that not having links to the north didn’t do Boris any harm.
    Who was the last Tory leader with links to the North? Hague? And before him, I would suggest Macmillan, MP for Stockton on and off until 1945, Churchill, MP for first Oldham and then Manchester North West, and before that Balfour, MP for Manchester East?

    There haven't exactly been lots. Before that just about the only one would have been Derby.
    Douglas-Home had connections to the Borders and a Perthshire seat..

    Oh, you didn’t mean that north.
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 13,677

    More or less off topic, listened to the latest episode of R4’s The Gathering Storm which featured a lot of Mike Flynn. He seems to be the absolute boy for QAnonists and Trumpers. Is there any chance of him being a candidate in 2024 or will it be his endorsement that counts?

    Gen. Flynn has fallen out of favour with the qanon lot after that other fucking nutcase Lin Wood released a recording of Flynn describing Qanon as total nonsense.

    There is no way the 2024 GOP candidate is anybody but Trump.
  • ApplicantApplicant Posts: 3,379
    RobD said:

    Applicant said:

    RobD said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Yet another 'Brexit benefit' that's been shown up for the fallacy that it is. Consumer compensation could be cut from £220 to less than £25.

    https://www.cityam.com/brexit-bus-uk-flight-compensation-delays-drop-220-25/

    What an incredibly misleading headline.

    Current rules: 0h59 minutes late: no refund
    New rules: 0h59 minutes late: no refund

    Current rules: 1h59 minutes late: no refund
    New rules: 1h59 minutes late: 25% refund

    Current rules: 2h59 minutes late: no refund
    New rules: 2h59 minutes late: 50% refund

    Current rules: 3h00 minutes late: 100% refund
    New rules: 3h00 minutes late: 100% refund

    How is that not a win for the consumer?
    The argument is that people whose flights have been delayed won't bother to claim.
    How is that even an argument? The headline said the compensation would be cut from £220 to £25, in which case they would have to claim.
    The implication of the City AM article is that the current compensation is paid automatically. I don't know if that's true.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,829
    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    The mercury is threatening to burst out the top of my whataboutometer this morning.

    A stunning contender for “World’s most convoluted admission by an elderly Scotsman that he is actually having a wank”
    You seem feisty if resolutely leaden footed today. Jet lagged or still kicking the arse out of World of Dildos expenses in Colombo?
    Certainly quite chipper


    The Sri Lankans have finally - FINALLY - realised who I am - an era-defining knapper with my own column on the Gazette - and they are suddenly throwing freebies at me

    Got dinner, this eve, at supposedly the best Indian in the capital

    And on Thursday I've been invited to THE BEST CRAB RESTAURANT IN THE WORLD (and the "29th best restaurant in Asia") where they are "curating" me a meal

    https://edition.cnn.com/travel/article/ministry-of-crab-sri-lanka-cmb/index.html


    I have never had a meal "curated" before. Hmm

    Anyway, yeah, good vibes all round
    Alarming connotations of the sort of food one sees in museums from Pompeii etc. But do tell us about it.
  • EndillionEndillion Posts: 4,976

    Endillion said:

    ydoethur said:


    Because if so, I am thinking @PBModerator might want to consider whether those posts should be left up.

    Wait till he finds out about Corbyn's failure to investigate child abuse in Islington care homes:
    http://labour-uncut.co.uk/2015/08/31/corbyns-silence-over-child-abuse-in-islington-is-typical-of-how-he-picks-and-chooses-his-causes/
    Wait till the person posting this figures out that Margaret Hodge was actually the councillor for the area and in charge of this and her response to the accusations.

    I'm sure they will come out and condemn Hodge strongly and this wasn't a cheap attempt to smear Corbyn.

    Hodge, as a local councillor during the affected time, certainly has a case to answer.

    As does Corbyn, MP for Islington North since 1983.

    The point being that he seemed significantly more interested in perceived injustices happening half a world away than the ones on his own doorstep. Wouldn't you agree?
  • Northern_AlNorthern_Al Posts: 8,375
    edited February 2022
    Just catching up, and am devastated to discover that yet another of my fellow socialists has, to coin a phrase, "fucked off and joined the Tories". Starmer will be perplexed (though he has asked if they could take Barnet Momentum with them).

    Strange old world for us lefties at the moment. Some of us want power, and are prepared to make some compromises to get it. For others, however, it seems that the nearer they get to power the more determined they are to throw it away. I think there's more like me than like them, though.
  • Putin has form on insulting French Presidents:

    Still under the shock of that meeting with Putin, Sarkozy proceeded to meet with the press, creating media frenzy about his "drinking." The part of Hénin's documentary summarizing that meeting is here (in French). 7/8

    https://twitter.com/rallaf/status/1490699623689768963?s=20&t=k83p23d4dhC24zmfW-TldQ
  • WhisperingOracleWhisperingOracle Posts: 9,133
    edited February 2022


    Kevin Schofield
    @KevinASchofield
    ·
    11m
    NEW: PM's spokesman confirms mini-reshuffle will happen this afternoon. "Small number of ministerial changes," he says.

    What? Another one?
    Nadine Dorries to be made minister for Diplomatic Affairs, with her own private office adjoining the Prime Minister's, inside Number 10 itself. Rees-Mogg to be made minister for Levelling Up and national cohesion.
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830
    Applicant said:

    RobD said:

    Applicant said:

    RobD said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Yet another 'Brexit benefit' that's been shown up for the fallacy that it is. Consumer compensation could be cut from £220 to less than £25.

    https://www.cityam.com/brexit-bus-uk-flight-compensation-delays-drop-220-25/

    What an incredibly misleading headline.

    Current rules: 0h59 minutes late: no refund
    New rules: 0h59 minutes late: no refund

    Current rules: 1h59 minutes late: no refund
    New rules: 1h59 minutes late: 25% refund

    Current rules: 2h59 minutes late: no refund
    New rules: 2h59 minutes late: 50% refund

    Current rules: 3h00 minutes late: 100% refund
    New rules: 3h00 minutes late: 100% refund

    How is that not a win for the consumer?
    The argument is that people whose flights have been delayed won't bother to claim.
    How is that even an argument? The headline said the compensation would be cut from £220 to £25, in which case they would have to claim.
    The implication of the City AM article is that the current compensation is paid automatically. I don't know if that's true.
    I had a claim against Norwegian 3 or 4 years ago, got fobbed off for a whole year and had to issue proceedings, whereupon they paid up
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,070
    One for @TheScreamingEagles and his fellow republicans...

    (Thread)
    A quick thread on in the importance of being careful what data you share - even if you're the Queen. Today, Her Maj tweeted this lovely picture, gor bless er, etc. You might think that the contents of the red box would be official business. And you'd be right. 1/6
    https://twitter.com/amateuradam/status/1490394034900197388
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,373

    ydoethur said:

    MrEd said:

    MrEd said:

    MrEd said:

    algarkirk said:

    A long shot prediction, but it seems to me that if there is a new PM in the near future anyone in the current government is too tarred with the brush to be a credible candidate.

    Sunak's choice was between Boris loyalism or resignation. The Savile remarks were the last chance to get out. He has chosen an uneasy path between the two.

    The final two will be out of Hunt, Tugendhat and a couple of other non government figures. FWIW I think it will be close between Hunt and Tugendhat. Either would enable several million people (including me) to take the Tories seriously again, though I doubt if either could beat SKS+ the centre left alliance in the next GE.

    The long shot nature of this prediction is that it requires an outbreak of sanity among a majority of the Tory MPs. Here's hoping.

    I think you are right on any of the current Cabinet not having a chance.

    The lack of a move by Sunak is not that big a surprise when you look at his work background - Goldmans and a hedge fund. Not the sort of people who do anything without rationalising things to the nth degree rather than go with their gut (Sunak wasn't that type of hedge fund guy). I think he has been looking at the polls and thinking "I'm not sure about this". He's probably hoping now he can stay until; BJ steps down and then launch his bid. The problem with that is that BJ bears grudges and will chop him off at the knees. By then, it is too late.

    I think what the current Conservative MP reaction has also shown is that anyone from the Remainer, Home Counties Tory list of candidates is unlikely to have much of a chance. This was the moment for them to at least attempt a takeover by using BJ's sins to cast him out. They have failed.

    Re betting, look for the ERG / Red Wall combo for the surprise candidate. I've mentioned this several times before before but I've put money on McVey at 100/1 (straight bet, no trading involved in case anyone asks). Sacked by Boris but Cabinet experience, would have support from both ERG and Red Wall divide, anti-lockdowner so no association there and has stood before (although badly). If you don't fancy that bet, look for someone who can combine the two factions together - it's a powerful combo in the election race.
    Tend to agree, someone like Mordaunt is probably a value bet and can see how she could reunite the Conservative party. Can't take McVey seriously though.
    A lot of people couldn't take BJ seriously as well...but know what you mean. However, that's probably why she is 100/1.

    Not sure re Mordaunt. Yes, on the pro-Brexit side but she is a southern MP with no clear roots in the North. She is a bit of a Brexiteer version of Liz Truss.
    What links to the north does Boris have?
    He doesn't. It's a discussion about betting on the next leader.
    My point being that not having links to the north didn’t do Boris any harm.
    Who was the last Tory leader with links to the North? Hague? And before him, I would suggest Macmillan, MP for Stockton on and off until 1945, Churchill, MP for first Oldham and then Manchester North West, and before that Balfour, MP for Manchester East?

    There haven't exactly been lots. Before that just about the only one would have been Derby.
    Douglas-Home had connections to the Borders and a Perthshire seat..

    Oh, you didn’t mean that north.
    I meant the North of England, particularly. You keep telling us that's Scotland's different!

    On that view, Bonar Law (Glasgow) could be added as a Northerner.
  • MrEd said:

    MrEd said:

    algarkirk said:

    A long shot prediction, but it seems to me that if there is a new PM in the near future anyone in the current government is too tarred with the brush to be a credible candidate.

    Sunak's choice was between Boris loyalism or resignation. The Savile remarks were the last chance to get out. He has chosen an uneasy path between the two.

    The final two will be out of Hunt, Tugendhat and a couple of other non government figures. FWIW I think it will be close between Hunt and Tugendhat. Either would enable several million people (including me) to take the Tories seriously again, though I doubt if either could beat SKS+ the centre left alliance in the next GE.

    The long shot nature of this prediction is that it requires an outbreak of sanity among a majority of the Tory MPs. Here's hoping.

    I think you are right on any of the current Cabinet not having a chance.

    The lack of a move by Sunak is not that big a surprise when you look at his work background - Goldmans and a hedge fund. Not the sort of people who do anything without rationalising things to the nth degree rather than go with their gut (Sunak wasn't that type of hedge fund guy). I think he has been looking at the polls and thinking "I'm not sure about this". He's probably hoping now he can stay until; BJ steps down and then launch his bid. The problem with that is that BJ bears grudges and will chop him off at the knees. By then, it is too late.

    I think what the current Conservative MP reaction has also shown is that anyone from the Remainer, Home Counties Tory list of candidates is unlikely to have much of a chance. This was the moment for them to at least attempt a takeover by using BJ's sins to cast him out. They have failed.

    Re betting, look for the ERG / Red Wall combo for the surprise candidate. I've mentioned this several times before before but I've put money on McVey at 100/1 (straight bet, no trading involved in case anyone asks). Sacked by Boris but Cabinet experience, would have support from both ERG and Red Wall divide, anti-lockdowner so no association there and has stood before (although badly). If you don't fancy that bet, look for someone who can combine the two factions together - it's a powerful combo in the election race.
    Tend to agree, someone like Mordaunt is probably a value bet and can see how she could reunite the Conservative party. Can't take McVey seriously though.
    A lot of people couldn't take BJ seriously as well...but know what you mean. However, that's probably why she is 100/1.

    Not sure re Mordaunt. Yes, on the pro-Brexit side but she is a southern MP with no clear roots in the North. She is a bit of a Brexiteer version of Liz Truss.
    What links to the north does Boris have?
    Boris loves the North, after all, he went to Uni at Oxford.... :D
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,926
    Applicant said:

    RobD said:

    Applicant said:

    RobD said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Yet another 'Brexit benefit' that's been shown up for the fallacy that it is. Consumer compensation could be cut from £220 to less than £25.

    https://www.cityam.com/brexit-bus-uk-flight-compensation-delays-drop-220-25/

    What an incredibly misleading headline.

    Current rules: 0h59 minutes late: no refund
    New rules: 0h59 minutes late: no refund

    Current rules: 1h59 minutes late: no refund
    New rules: 1h59 minutes late: 25% refund

    Current rules: 2h59 minutes late: no refund
    New rules: 2h59 minutes late: 50% refund

    Current rules: 3h00 minutes late: 100% refund
    New rules: 3h00 minutes late: 100% refund

    How is that not a win for the consumer?
    The argument is that people whose flights have been delayed won't bother to claim.
    How is that even an argument? The headline said the compensation would be cut from £220 to £25, in which case they would have to claim.
    The implication of the City AM article is that the current compensation is paid automatically. I don't know if that's true.
    But then the headline makes no sense. In no situation would the compensation be cut from £220 to £25, because in both cases it would have to be claimed.
  • MrEdMrEd Posts: 5,578

    MrEd said:

    MrEd said:

    MrEd said:

    MrEd said:

    algarkirk said:

    A long shot prediction, but it seems to me that if there is a new PM in the near future anyone in the current government is too tarred with the brush to be a credible candidate.

    Sunak's choice was between Boris loyalism or resignation. The Savile remarks were the last chance to get out. He has chosen an uneasy path between the two.

    The final two will be out of Hunt, Tugendhat and a couple of other non government figures. FWIW I think it will be close between Hunt and Tugendhat. Either would enable several million people (including me) to take the Tories seriously again, though I doubt if either could beat SKS+ the centre left alliance in the next GE.

    The long shot nature of this prediction is that it requires an outbreak of sanity among a majority of the Tory MPs. Here's hoping.

    I think you are right on any of the current Cabinet not having a chance.

    The lack of a move by Sunak is not that big a surprise when you look at his work background - Goldmans and a hedge fund. Not the sort of people who do anything without rationalising things to the nth degree rather than go with their gut (Sunak wasn't that type of hedge fund guy). I think he has been looking at the polls and thinking "I'm not sure about this". He's probably hoping now he can stay until; BJ steps down and then launch his bid. The problem with that is that BJ bears grudges and will chop him off at the knees. By then, it is too late.

    I think what the current Conservative MP reaction has also shown is that anyone from the Remainer, Home Counties Tory list of candidates is unlikely to have much of a chance. This was the moment for them to at least attempt a takeover by using BJ's sins to cast him out. They have failed.

    Re betting, look for the ERG / Red Wall combo for the surprise candidate. I've mentioned this several times before before but I've put money on McVey at 100/1 (straight bet, no trading involved in case anyone asks). Sacked by Boris but Cabinet experience, would have support from both ERG and Red Wall divide, anti-lockdowner so no association there and has stood before (although badly). If you don't fancy that bet, look for someone who can combine the two factions together - it's a powerful combo in the election race.
    Tend to agree, someone like Mordaunt is probably a value bet and can see how she could reunite the Conservative party. Can't take McVey seriously though.
    A lot of people couldn't take BJ seriously as well...but know what you mean. However, that's probably why she is 100/1.

    Not sure re Mordaunt. Yes, on the pro-Brexit side but she is a southern MP with no clear roots in the North. She is a bit of a Brexiteer version of Liz Truss.
    What links to the north does Boris have?
    He doesn't. It's a discussion about betting on the next leader.
    My point being that not having links to the north didn’t do Boris any harm.
    Fair point. But BJ brought something different to the table, namely he could win the Tories in areas they couldn't win otherwise (eg London). I don't think Mordaunt has that. She doesn't strike me as someone who feel particularly at ease pounding the streets of Hartlepool. Might be wrong but I haven't seen anything of it so far.
    Isn't Mordaunt's seat more similar to a lot of red wall seats demographically though? At least more so than Tugendhat or even Sunak (even though his seat borders Durham/Teesside red wall seats). It voted Labour 1997-2010 but voted 60%+ for Brexit and now has a huge Tory majority.


    Yes, it is, Portsmouth North, so sailors and dockers. Fair point on that. I might put a few covering quid on her.

  • Kevin Schofield
    @KevinASchofield
    ·
    11m
    NEW: PM's spokesman confirms mini-reshuffle will happen this afternoon. "Small number of ministerial changes," he says.

    ‘We’re only removing their bollocks not their spines’
  • The video of Starmer being hounded is extremely distressing. What is happening to our country.

    Were you distressed when exactly the same thing happened to Michael Gove, note he was also shouted at that he was protecting paedos

    https://twitter.com/urban_pictures/status/1450454322664427520
    Did Keir Starmer, Ed Davey, or any of the other party leaders draw attention to that particular conspiracy theory in parliament last October, by any chance ?
    No but the Labour Party Deputy Leader did say this a couple of weeks before this happened:

    “We cannot get any worse than a bunch of scum, homophobic, racist, misogynistic, absolute vile… banana republic, vile, nasty, Etonian… piece of scum.”
    And she apologised for saying it, IIRC. Where is Johnson's apology? Nowhere to be seen, because he is utterly without any shred of human decency, a rancid turd floating in the swimming pool of British political life.
    Fairs fair - Give him another 3 weeks - it took her a month!

    So if he apologises sooner than that Rayner will be utterly without any shred of human decency, a rancid turd floating in the swimming pool of British political life?

    So much for the moral high ground and improving discourse in public life!

  • Kevin Schofield
    @KevinASchofield
    ·
    11m
    NEW: PM's spokesman confirms mini-reshuffle will happen this afternoon. "Small number of ministerial changes," he says.

    What? Another one?
    Nadine Dorries to be made minister for Diplomatic Affairs, with her own private office adjoining the Prime Minister's inside Number 10 itself. Rees-Mogg to be made minister for Levelling Up and community outreach.
    Well, JRM does have form for levelling, though it looks more like down to me...


  • ApplicantApplicant Posts: 3,379
    RobD said:

    Applicant said:

    RobD said:

    Applicant said:

    RobD said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Yet another 'Brexit benefit' that's been shown up for the fallacy that it is. Consumer compensation could be cut from £220 to less than £25.

    https://www.cityam.com/brexit-bus-uk-flight-compensation-delays-drop-220-25/

    What an incredibly misleading headline.

    Current rules: 0h59 minutes late: no refund
    New rules: 0h59 minutes late: no refund

    Current rules: 1h59 minutes late: no refund
    New rules: 1h59 minutes late: 25% refund

    Current rules: 2h59 minutes late: no refund
    New rules: 2h59 minutes late: 50% refund

    Current rules: 3h00 minutes late: 100% refund
    New rules: 3h00 minutes late: 100% refund

    How is that not a win for the consumer?
    The argument is that people whose flights have been delayed won't bother to claim.
    How is that even an argument? The headline said the compensation would be cut from £220 to £25, in which case they would have to claim.
    The implication of the City AM article is that the current compensation is paid automatically. I don't know if that's true.
    But then the headline makes no sense. In no situation would the compensation be cut from £220 to £25, because in both cases it would have to be claimed.
    Is the current compensation a flat rate rather than being limited to the ticket cost?
  • WhisperingOracleWhisperingOracle Posts: 9,133
    edited February 2022

    The video of Starmer being hounded is extremely distressing. What is happening to our country.

    Were you distressed when exactly the same thing happened to Michael Gove, note he was also shouted at that he was protecting paedos

    https://twitter.com/urban_pictures/status/1450454322664427520
    Did Keir Starmer, Ed Davey, or any of the other party leaders draw attention to that particular conspiracy theory in parliament last October, by any chance ?
    No but the Labour Party Deputy Leader did say this a couple of weeks before this happened:

    “We cannot get any worse than a bunch of scum, homophobic, racist, misogynistic, absolute vile… banana republic, vile, nasty, Etonian… piece of scum.”
    And she apologised for saying it, IIRC. Where is Johnson's apology? Nowhere to be seen, because he is utterly without any shred of human decency, a rancid turd floating in the swimming pool of British political life.
    Fairs fair - Give him another 3 weeks - it took her a month!

    So if he apologises sooner than that Rayner will be utterly without any shred of human decency, a rancid turd floating in the swimming pool of British political life?

    So much for the moral high ground and improving discourse in public life!
    No, because Rayner didn't use an internet conspiracy meme within parliament, against a specific individual and to protect herself from an allegation of lying, which then caused a specific problem straight outside.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,926
    Applicant said:

    RobD said:

    Applicant said:

    RobD said:

    Applicant said:

    RobD said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Yet another 'Brexit benefit' that's been shown up for the fallacy that it is. Consumer compensation could be cut from £220 to less than £25.

    https://www.cityam.com/brexit-bus-uk-flight-compensation-delays-drop-220-25/

    What an incredibly misleading headline.

    Current rules: 0h59 minutes late: no refund
    New rules: 0h59 minutes late: no refund

    Current rules: 1h59 minutes late: no refund
    New rules: 1h59 minutes late: 25% refund

    Current rules: 2h59 minutes late: no refund
    New rules: 2h59 minutes late: 50% refund

    Current rules: 3h00 minutes late: 100% refund
    New rules: 3h00 minutes late: 100% refund

    How is that not a win for the consumer?
    The argument is that people whose flights have been delayed won't bother to claim.
    How is that even an argument? The headline said the compensation would be cut from £220 to £25, in which case they would have to claim.
    The implication of the City AM article is that the current compensation is paid automatically. I don't know if that's true.
    But then the headline makes no sense. In no situation would the compensation be cut from £220 to £25, because in both cases it would have to be claimed.
    Is the current compensation a flat rate rather than being limited to the ticket cost?
    Currently it’s a full refund but only after 3 hours.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,582
    Applicant said:

    RobD said:

    Applicant said:

    RobD said:

    Applicant said:

    RobD said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Yet another 'Brexit benefit' that's been shown up for the fallacy that it is. Consumer compensation could be cut from £220 to less than £25.

    https://www.cityam.com/brexit-bus-uk-flight-compensation-delays-drop-220-25/

    What an incredibly misleading headline.

    Current rules: 0h59 minutes late: no refund
    New rules: 0h59 minutes late: no refund

    Current rules: 1h59 minutes late: no refund
    New rules: 1h59 minutes late: 25% refund

    Current rules: 2h59 minutes late: no refund
    New rules: 2h59 minutes late: 50% refund

    Current rules: 3h00 minutes late: 100% refund
    New rules: 3h00 minutes late: 100% refund

    How is that not a win for the consumer?
    The argument is that people whose flights have been delayed won't bother to claim.
    How is that even an argument? The headline said the compensation would be cut from £220 to £25, in which case they would have to claim.
    The implication of the City AM article is that the current compensation is paid automatically. I don't know if that's true.
    But then the headline makes no sense. In no situation would the compensation be cut from £220 to £25, because in both cases it would have to be claimed.
    Is the current compensation a flat rate rather than being limited to the ticket cost?
    Yes, there is a very high minimum, so you get £250 refund on a £10 ticket.

    Which, unsurprisingly, the airlines add to their fares, with something of an over-estimate for how often they have to pay out.
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 13,677

    The video of Starmer being hounded is extremely distressing. What is happening to our country.

    Were you distressed when exactly the same thing happened to Michael Gove, note he was also shouted at that he was protecting paedos

    https://twitter.com/urban_pictures/status/1450454322664427520
    Did Keir Starmer, Ed Davey, or any of the other party leaders draw attention to that particular conspiracy theory in parliament last October, by any chance ?
    No but the Labour Party Deputy Leader did say this a couple of weeks before this happened:

    “We cannot get any worse than a bunch of scum, homophobic, racist, misogynistic, absolute vile… banana republic, vile, nasty, Etonian… piece of scum.”
    And she apologised for saying it, IIRC. Where is Johnson's apology? Nowhere to be seen, because he is utterly without any shred of human decency, a rancid turd floating in the swimming pool of British political life.
    Fairs fair - Give him another 3 weeks - it took her a month!

    So if he apologises sooner than that Rayner will be utterly without any shred of human decency, a rancid turd floating in the swimming pool of British political life?

    So much for the moral high ground and improving discourse in public life!
    No, because Rayner didn't use an internet conspiracy meme in parliament, to protect herself from an allegation of lying, which then caused a specific problem straight outside.
    Also, she was factually correct.
  • Dura_Ace said:

    More or less off topic, listened to the latest episode of R4’s The Gathering Storm which featured a lot of Mike Flynn. He seems to be the absolute boy for QAnonists and Trumpers. Is there any chance of him being a candidate in 2024 or will it be his endorsement that counts?

    Gen. Flynn has fallen out of favour with the qanon lot after that other fucking nutcase Lin Wood released a recording of Flynn describing Qanon as total nonsense.

    There is no way the 2024 GOP candidate is anybody but Trump.
    Unless Trump joins the Choir Invisible....
  • Where does calling a group of MPs "worse than Nazis" come in the "failed to prosecute Savile" to "vile Tory scum" scale?

    "David Lammy says comparing ERG to Nazis ‘not strong enough’

    David Lammy has said comparing the hard-Brexit European Research Group of Tory MPs to Nazis and proponents of South African apartheid was “not strong enough”, and suggested that the Brexit debate had allowed proponents of hard right views to flourish.

    The Labour MP, who is a vocal campaigner for a second EU referendum, was asked on the BBC’s Andrew Marr Show whether a comparison he previously made to the election of Adolf Hitler’s party in Germany and to South African white supremacists was appropriate.

    “I would say that that wasn’t strong enough. In 1938 there were allies who hatched a plan for Hitler to annex part of Czechoslovakia, and Churchill said no, and he stood alone,” he said.

    Asked if it was fair to make such a comment about elected politicians, he said: “I don’t care how elected they were: so was the far right in Germany.”"
    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/apr/14/comparing-erg-to-nazis-not-strong-enough-says-david-lammy
  • Dura_Ace said:

    The video of Starmer being hounded is extremely distressing. What is happening to our country.

    Were you distressed when exactly the same thing happened to Michael Gove, note he was also shouted at that he was protecting paedos

    https://twitter.com/urban_pictures/status/1450454322664427520
    Did Keir Starmer, Ed Davey, or any of the other party leaders draw attention to that particular conspiracy theory in parliament last October, by any chance ?
    No but the Labour Party Deputy Leader did say this a couple of weeks before this happened:

    “We cannot get any worse than a bunch of scum, homophobic, racist, misogynistic, absolute vile… banana republic, vile, nasty, Etonian… piece of scum.”
    And she apologised for saying it, IIRC. Where is Johnson's apology? Nowhere to be seen, because he is utterly without any shred of human decency, a rancid turd floating in the swimming pool of British political life.
    Fairs fair - Give him another 3 weeks - it took her a month!

    So if he apologises sooner than that Rayner will be utterly without any shred of human decency, a rancid turd floating in the swimming pool of British political life?

    So much for the moral high ground and improving discourse in public life!
    No, because Rayner didn't use an internet conspiracy meme in parliament, to protect herself from an allegation of lying, which then caused a specific problem straight outside.
    Also, she was factually correct.
    Naughty!
  • The video of Starmer being hounded is extremely distressing. What is happening to our country.

    Were you distressed when exactly the same thing happened to Michael Gove, note he was also shouted at that he was protecting paedos

    https://twitter.com/urban_pictures/status/1450454322664427520
    Did Keir Starmer, Ed Davey, or any of the other party leaders draw attention to that particular conspiracy theory in parliament last October, by any chance ?
    No but the Labour Party Deputy Leader did say this a couple of weeks before this happened:

    “We cannot get any worse than a bunch of scum, homophobic, racist, misogynistic, absolute vile… banana republic, vile, nasty, Etonian… piece of scum.”
    And she apologised for saying it, IIRC. Where is Johnson's apology? Nowhere to be seen, because he is utterly without any shred of human decency, a rancid turd floating in the swimming pool of British political life.
    Fairs fair - Give him another 3 weeks - it took her a month!

    So if he apologises sooner than that Rayner will be utterly without any shred of human decency, a rancid turd floating in the swimming pool of British political life?

    So much for the moral high ground and improving discourse in public life!
    I'm an anonymous naebody on the Internet, not the Prime Minister. Improving discourse in public life isn't my responsibility.
  • WhisperingOracleWhisperingOracle Posts: 9,133
    edited February 2022

    Where does calling a group of MPs "worse than Nazis" come in the "failed to prosecute Savile" to "vile Tory scum" scale?

    "David Lammy says comparing ERG to Nazis ‘not strong enough’

    David Lammy has said comparing the hard-Brexit European Research Group of Tory MPs to Nazis and proponents of South African apartheid was “not strong enough”, and suggested that the Brexit debate had allowed proponents of hard right views to flourish.

    The Labour MP, who is a vocal campaigner for a second EU referendum, was asked on the BBC’s Andrew Marr Show whether a comparison he previously made to the election of Adolf Hitler’s party in Germany and to South African white supremacists was appropriate.

    “I would say that that wasn’t strong enough. In 1938 there were allies who hatched a plan for Hitler to annex part of Czechoslovakia, and Churchill said no, and he stood alone,” he said.

    Asked if it was fair to make such a comment about elected politicians, he said: “I don’t care how elected they were: so was the far right in Germany.”"
    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/apr/14/comparing-erg-to-nazis-not-strong-enough-says-david-lammy

    And what of various Tories accusing Corbyn of being a genocidal Stalinist or Russian agent, etc. We could go on here for hours.

    The point is of a step-change in both responding to internet conspiracy thinking, and bringing it straight into parliament in a moment of crisis, as a last-ditch defence tactic. As mentioned many times here now, the only person that is redolent of is Trump.
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 23,485

    Just catching up, and am devastated to discover that yet another of my fellow socialists has, to coin a phrase, "fucked off and joined the Tories". Starmer will be perplexed (though he has asked if they could take Barnet Momentum with them).

    Strange old world for us lefties at the moment. Some of us want power, and are prepared to make some compromises to get it. For others, however, it seems that the nearer they get to power the more determined they are to throw it away. I think there's more like me than like them, though.

    I'd go with slightly disappointed rather than devastated.

    Owls is weirdly obsessed with Starmer.

    Jezziah is demonstrably crackers.

    Can't please all of the people, all of the time.
  • BlancheLivermoreBlancheLivermore Posts: 5,915
    edited February 2022

    Where does calling a group of MPs "worse than Nazis" come in the "failed to prosecute Savile" to "vile Tory scum" scale?

    "David Lammy says comparing ERG to Nazis ‘not strong enough’

    David Lammy has said comparing the hard-Brexit European Research Group of Tory MPs to Nazis and proponents of South African apartheid was “not strong enough”, and suggested that the Brexit debate had allowed proponents of hard right views to flourish.

    The Labour MP, who is a vocal campaigner for a second EU referendum, was asked on the BBC’s Andrew Marr Show whether a comparison he previously made to the election of Adolf Hitler’s party in Germany and to South African white supremacists was appropriate.

    “I would say that that wasn’t strong enough. In 1938 there were allies who hatched a plan for Hitler to annex part of Czechoslovakia, and Churchill said no, and he stood alone,” he said.

    Asked if it was fair to make such a comment about elected politicians, he said: “I don’t care how elected they were: so was the far right in Germany.”"
    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/apr/14/comparing-erg-to-nazis-not-strong-enough-says-david-lammy

    And what of various Tories accusing Corbyn of being a genocidal Stalinist, etc. We could go on here for hours.

    The point is a fundamental change of both responding to internet conspiracy thinking, and bringing it straight into parliament as a last-ditch defence tactic. As mentioned many times now, the only person that is redolent of, is Trump.
    Who exactly accused Corbyn of genocide?

    Edit - And I'm certain that "worse than the Nazis" is a more terrible slur than "failed to prosecute Savile"
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,633
    Dura_Ace said:

    The video of Starmer being hounded is extremely distressing. What is happening to our country.

    Were you distressed when exactly the same thing happened to Michael Gove, note he was also shouted at that he was protecting paedos

    https://twitter.com/urban_pictures/status/1450454322664427520
    Did Keir Starmer, Ed Davey, or any of the other party leaders draw attention to that particular conspiracy theory in parliament last October, by any chance ?
    No but the Labour Party Deputy Leader did say this a couple of weeks before this happened:

    “We cannot get any worse than a bunch of scum, homophobic, racist, misogynistic, absolute vile… banana republic, vile, nasty, Etonian… piece of scum.”
    And she apologised for saying it, IIRC. Where is Johnson's apology? Nowhere to be seen, because he is utterly without any shred of human decency, a rancid turd floating in the swimming pool of British political life.
    Fairs fair - Give him another 3 weeks - it took her a month!

    So if he apologises sooner than that Rayner will be utterly without any shred of human decency, a rancid turd floating in the swimming pool of British political life?

    So much for the moral high ground and improving discourse in public life!
    No, because Rayner didn't use an internet conspiracy meme in parliament, to protect herself from an allegation of lying, which then caused a specific problem straight outside.
    Also, she was factually correct.
    Increasingly looks like an astute piece of observation by Ms Rayner, even if she was half cut at the bar.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 41,955
    edited February 2022


    Kevin Schofield
    @KevinASchofield
    ·
    11m
    NEW: PM's spokesman confirms mini-reshuffle will happen this afternoon. "Small number of ministerial changes," he says.

    What? Another one?
    Nadine Dorries to be made minister for Diplomatic Affairs, with her own private office adjoining the Prime Minister's inside Number 10 itself. Rees-Mogg to be made minister for Levelling Up and community outreach.
    Well, JRM does have form for levelling, though it looks more like down to me...


    Say what you like about JRM, and I do, at least he treats his shoes (or more likely his manservant does) properly, polish and shoe stretchers all the way. BJ’s Church’s otoh look like they belong to an overweight bloke who kicks them off still laced every night then crushes his pudgy feet back into them in the morning, again still laced.

    JRM’s socks are suspiciously unwrinkled, I think he may be a suspender wearer.
  • ApplicantApplicant Posts: 3,379
    RobD said:

    Applicant said:

    RobD said:

    Applicant said:

    RobD said:

    Applicant said:

    RobD said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Yet another 'Brexit benefit' that's been shown up for the fallacy that it is. Consumer compensation could be cut from £220 to less than £25.

    https://www.cityam.com/brexit-bus-uk-flight-compensation-delays-drop-220-25/

    What an incredibly misleading headline.

    Current rules: 0h59 minutes late: no refund
    New rules: 0h59 minutes late: no refund

    Current rules: 1h59 minutes late: no refund
    New rules: 1h59 minutes late: 25% refund

    Current rules: 2h59 minutes late: no refund
    New rules: 2h59 minutes late: 50% refund

    Current rules: 3h00 minutes late: 100% refund
    New rules: 3h00 minutes late: 100% refund

    How is that not a win for the consumer?
    The argument is that people whose flights have been delayed won't bother to claim.
    How is that even an argument? The headline said the compensation would be cut from £220 to £25, in which case they would have to claim.
    The implication of the City AM article is that the current compensation is paid automatically. I don't know if that's true.
    But then the headline makes no sense. In no situation would the compensation be cut from £220 to £25, because in both cases it would have to be claimed.
    Is the current compensation a flat rate rather than being limited to the ticket cost?
    Currently it’s a full refund but only after 3 hours.
    Hmm. I can see where the £220 figure comes from - it's the €250 in the table here, which doesn't appear to be capped at the flight cost.

    So overall this looks like a redistribution of compensation from cheap flights delayed over 3 hours to all flights delayed between 1 and 3 hours.
  • So Javid wants to get the NHS waiting list time below a year by March 2025? I remember it being 18 weeks in the bad old days of the Labour government.

    I'm finalising my proposed contract to go PAYE. For the first time ever I am not just taking private health insurance, I am writing it in blood into the contract.
  • The video of Starmer being hounded is extremely distressing. What is happening to our country.

    Were you distressed when exactly the same thing happened to Michael Gove, note he was also shouted at that he was protecting paedos

    https://twitter.com/urban_pictures/status/1450454322664427520
    Did Keir Starmer, Ed Davey, or any of the other party leaders draw attention to that particular conspiracy theory in parliament last October, by any chance ?
    No but the Labour Party Deputy Leader did say this a couple of weeks before this happened:

    “We cannot get any worse than a bunch of scum, homophobic, racist, misogynistic, absolute vile… banana republic, vile, nasty, Etonian… piece of scum.”
    And she apologised for saying it, IIRC. Where is Johnson's apology? Nowhere to be seen, because he is utterly without any shred of human decency, a rancid turd floating in the swimming pool of British political life.
    Fairs fair - Give him another 3 weeks - it took her a month!

    So if he apologises sooner than that Rayner will be utterly without any shred of human decency, a rancid turd floating in the swimming pool of British political life?

    So much for the moral high ground and improving discourse in public life!
    which then caused a specific problem straight outside.
    So if Johnson hadn’t made the comment the demo wouldn’t have happened? Have you watched the footage?
  • TazTaz Posts: 14,376

    Where does calling a group of MPs "worse than Nazis" come in the "failed to prosecute Savile" to "vile Tory scum" scale?

    "David Lammy says comparing ERG to Nazis ‘not strong enough’

    David Lammy has said comparing the hard-Brexit European Research Group of Tory MPs to Nazis and proponents of South African apartheid was “not strong enough”, and suggested that the Brexit debate had allowed proponents of hard right views to flourish.

    The Labour MP, who is a vocal campaigner for a second EU referendum, was asked on the BBC’s Andrew Marr Show whether a comparison he previously made to the election of Adolf Hitler’s party in Germany and to South African white supremacists was appropriate.

    “I would say that that wasn’t strong enough. In 1938 there were allies who hatched a plan for Hitler to annex part of Czechoslovakia, and Churchill said no, and he stood alone,” he said.

    Asked if it was fair to make such a comment about elected politicians, he said: “I don’t care how elected they were: so was the far right in Germany.”"
    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/apr/14/comparing-erg-to-nazis-not-strong-enough-says-david-lammy

    I expect this is excusable as it feeds into alot of mainstream views/prejudices.

    Lammy is, irrespective of what people say, a smart man. He's not dumb by any means. He knows what he is saying and doing.

  • The video of Starmer being hounded is extremely distressing. What is happening to our country.

    Were you distressed when exactly the same thing happened to Michael Gove, note he was also shouted at that he was protecting paedos

    https://twitter.com/urban_pictures/status/1450454322664427520
    Did Keir Starmer, Ed Davey, or any of the other party leaders draw attention to that particular conspiracy theory in parliament last October, by any chance ?
    No but the Labour Party Deputy Leader did say this a couple of weeks before this happened:

    “We cannot get any worse than a bunch of scum, homophobic, racist, misogynistic, absolute vile… banana republic, vile, nasty, Etonian… piece of scum.”
    And she apologised for saying it, IIRC. Where is Johnson's apology? Nowhere to be seen, because he is utterly without any shred of human decency, a rancid turd floating in the swimming pool of British political life.
    Fairs fair - Give him another 3 weeks - it took her a month!

    So if he apologises sooner than that Rayner will be utterly without any shred of human decency, a rancid turd floating in the swimming pool of British political life?

    So much for the moral high ground and improving discourse in public life!
    which then caused a specific problem straight outside.
    So if Johnson hadn’t made the comment the demo wouldn’t have happened? Have you watched the footage?
    The demo would have happened, the specific Savile-related abuse not.
  • ApplicantApplicant Posts: 3,379

    So Javid wants to get the NHS waiting list time below a year by March 2025? I remember it being 18 weeks in the bad old days of the Labour government.

    I'm finalising my proposed contract to go PAYE. For the first time ever I am not just taking private health insurance, I am writing it in blood into the contract.

    I hope you didn't support lockdowns.
  • ApplicantApplicant Posts: 3,379
    Taz said:

    Where does calling a group of MPs "worse than Nazis" come in the "failed to prosecute Savile" to "vile Tory scum" scale?

    "David Lammy says comparing ERG to Nazis ‘not strong enough’

    David Lammy has said comparing the hard-Brexit European Research Group of Tory MPs to Nazis and proponents of South African apartheid was “not strong enough”, and suggested that the Brexit debate had allowed proponents of hard right views to flourish.

    The Labour MP, who is a vocal campaigner for a second EU referendum, was asked on the BBC’s Andrew Marr Show whether a comparison he previously made to the election of Adolf Hitler’s party in Germany and to South African white supremacists was appropriate.

    “I would say that that wasn’t strong enough. In 1938 there were allies who hatched a plan for Hitler to annex part of Czechoslovakia, and Churchill said no, and he stood alone,” he said.

    Asked if it was fair to make such a comment about elected politicians, he said: “I don’t care how elected they were: so was the far right in Germany.”"
    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/apr/14/comparing-erg-to-nazis-not-strong-enough-says-david-lammy

    I expect this is excusable as it feeds into alot of mainstream views/prejudices.

    Lammy is, irrespective of what people say, a smart man. He's not dumb by any means. He knows what he is saying and doing.

    Except on Mastermind, of course.
  • MrEdMrEd Posts: 5,578
    Foxy said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    The video of Starmer being hounded is extremely distressing. What is happening to our country.

    Were you distressed when exactly the same thing happened to Michael Gove, note he was also shouted at that he was protecting paedos

    https://twitter.com/urban_pictures/status/1450454322664427520
    Did Keir Starmer, Ed Davey, or any of the other party leaders draw attention to that particular conspiracy theory in parliament last October, by any chance ?
    No but the Labour Party Deputy Leader did say this a couple of weeks before this happened:

    “We cannot get any worse than a bunch of scum, homophobic, racist, misogynistic, absolute vile… banana republic, vile, nasty, Etonian… piece of scum.”
    And she apologised for saying it, IIRC. Where is Johnson's apology? Nowhere to be seen, because he is utterly without any shred of human decency, a rancid turd floating in the swimming pool of British political life.
    Fairs fair - Give him another 3 weeks - it took her a month!

    So if he apologises sooner than that Rayner will be utterly without any shred of human decency, a rancid turd floating in the swimming pool of British political life?

    So much for the moral high ground and improving discourse in public life!
    No, because Rayner didn't use an internet conspiracy meme in parliament, to protect herself from an allegation of lying, which then caused a specific problem straight outside.
    Also, she was factually correct.
    Increasingly looks like an astute piece of observation by Ms Rayner, even if she was half cut at the bar.
    It is this sort of double standards - or as what @Anabobazina also refers to it as 'whataboutery' when pointed out - that causes the problems we have in public life. You reap what you sow.





  • WhisperingOracleWhisperingOracle Posts: 9,133
    edited February 2022

    Where does calling a group of MPs "worse than Nazis" come in the "failed to prosecute Savile" to "vile Tory scum" scale?

    "David Lammy says comparing ERG to Nazis ‘not strong enough’

    David Lammy has said comparing the hard-Brexit European Research Group of Tory MPs to Nazis and proponents of South African apartheid was “not strong enough”, and suggested that the Brexit debate had allowed proponents of hard right views to flourish.

    The Labour MP, who is a vocal campaigner for a second EU referendum, was asked on the BBC’s Andrew Marr Show whether a comparison he previously made to the election of Adolf Hitler’s party in Germany and to South African white supremacists was appropriate.

    “I would say that that wasn’t strong enough. In 1938 there were allies who hatched a plan for Hitler to annex part of Czechoslovakia, and Churchill said no, and he stood alone,” he said.

    Asked if it was fair to make such a comment about elected politicians, he said: “I don’t care how elected they were: so was the far right in Germany.”"
    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/apr/14/comparing-erg-to-nazis-not-strong-enough-says-david-lammy

    And what of various Tories accusing Corbyn of being a genocidal Stalinist, etc. We could go on here for hours.

    The point is a fundamental change of both responding to internet conspiracy thinking, and bringing it straight into parliament as a last-ditch defence tactic. As mentioned many times now, the only person that is redolent of, is Trump.
    Who exactly accused Corbyn of genocide?

    Edit - And I'm certain that "worse than the Nazis" is a more terrible slur than "failed to prosecute Savile"
    A pretty much the same example found immediately, for instance..

    https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/general-election-boris-johnson-jeremy-corbyn-joseph-stalin-billionaires-conservatives-a9186896.html

    "The prime minister accused the Labour leader of victimising the country’s richest with a “relish and vindictiveness” not seen since the Soviet leader persecuted landowners in the 1930s."
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,582

    So Javid wants to get the NHS waiting list time below a year by March 2025? I remember it being 18 weeks in the bad old days of the Labour government.

    I'm finalising my proposed contract to go PAYE. For the first time ever I am not just taking private health insurance, I am writing it in blood into the contract.

    If the government want to get waiting lists down quickly, they should reverse the BIK treatment of employer-provided health insurance.

    That, and fast-track visas for healthcare professionals, to let those who haven’t had any real time off for two years catch a break.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,812

    Only dipping in and out today, but was interested to read that both of the proper socialists on the forum are voting Tory.

    Hadn't realised that a Conservative government was the path to True Socialism.

    You've not been paying attention then.
  • YBarddCwscYBarddCwsc Posts: 7,172
    edited February 2022



    Meanwhile I see that Corbyn jnr and his erstwhile pillion companion Ms Abbott - a serving Labour MP - are backing Putin in his aggression towards Ukraine.

    What a revolting lot they are.

    It is perfectly reasonable to believe that the boundaries of the Ukraine SSR within the USSR are not sensible boundaries for an independent Ukrainian state.

    Ukraine, as currently configured, is like Yugoslavia, or the Austro-Hungarian empire. *

    Things will fall apart. They can fall apart slowly or quickly. Slow will cause more damage than quick.

    (* Or the UK)
  • ApplicantApplicant Posts: 3,379

    The video of Starmer being hounded is extremely distressing. What is happening to our country.

    Were you distressed when exactly the same thing happened to Michael Gove, note he was also shouted at that he was protecting paedos

    https://twitter.com/urban_pictures/status/1450454322664427520
    Did Keir Starmer, Ed Davey, or any of the other party leaders draw attention to that particular conspiracy theory in parliament last October, by any chance ?
    No but the Labour Party Deputy Leader did say this a couple of weeks before this happened:

    “We cannot get any worse than a bunch of scum, homophobic, racist, misogynistic, absolute vile… banana republic, vile, nasty, Etonian… piece of scum.”
    And she apologised for saying it, IIRC. Where is Johnson's apology? Nowhere to be seen, because he is utterly without any shred of human decency, a rancid turd floating in the swimming pool of British political life.
    Fairs fair - Give him another 3 weeks - it took her a month!

    So if he apologises sooner than that Rayner will be utterly without any shred of human decency, a rancid turd floating in the swimming pool of British political life?

    So much for the moral high ground and improving discourse in public life!
    which then caused a specific problem straight outside.
    So if Johnson hadn’t made the comment the demo wouldn’t have happened? Have you watched the footage?
    The demo would have happened, the specific Savile-related abuse not.
    Given what the same people did to Gove, you seem to be arguing that "you protected (a named paedophile)" is qualitatively - not merely quantitatively - worse than "you protected paedophiles".

    And that's ignoring the "B followed A, therefore A caused B" assumption.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,582



    Meanwhile I see that Corbyn jnr and his erstwhile pillion companion Ms Abbott - a serving Labour MP - are backing Putin in his aggression towards Ukraine.

    What a revolting lot they are.

    It is perfectly reasonable to believe that the boundaries of the Ukraine SSR within the USSR are not sensible boundaries for an independent Ukrainian state.

    Ukraine, as currently configured, is like Yugoslavia, or the Austro-Hungarian empire.

    Things will fall apart. They can fall apart slowly or quickly. Slow will cause more damage than quick.
    That may be true, but it is a decision for the Ukranian people - not for a strong man and his 100,000 troops.
This discussion has been closed.