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Punters backing Sunak are ignoring that there isn’t a vacancy – politicalbetting.com

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  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,633
    edited January 2022

    Foxy said:

    Jonathan said:

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    Heads-up for all PB armchair warriors:

    Starship Troopers is on Paramount Network (Freeview 32, Sky 150) at 10.50pm.

    "MI do the dying, Fleet just do the flying"
    Heinlein's writing seemed to have two modes: utter trash or inspired genuis.

    The continual references to incest did nothing to enhance it
    Yes, but Verhoevan didn't exactly stick to the book. Just made one of the most morally disturbing Sci Fi films. A real hymn to Facism and genocide.
    Satire wasn’t it?
    The film yes. The book, no.
    Verhoevan didn't read the book - and so didn't realise the hero is actually a Filipino.

    If he wanted to make an anti-war film, why not buy the rights to The Forever War?

    Rather than the mess he created, which stole about half the action and plot from "Armor" by John Starkey. And then screwed it up.
    Starship Troopers is hardly an anti-war film. Indeed few films are so enthusiastic for it!

    The main protagonists in the film come from Argentina. I am a fan of the film, but Verhoevans films are always interesting. Even Showgirls, which has developed into Cult status.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 23,148
    Farooq said:

    Farooq said:

    Farooq said:

    Russia may be a bit dodgy in terms of it being run as a big men cartel but it is not unique in being a bit dodgy even amongst "western " countries and client states. I dont know much about ukraine politics but I doubt it is an angelic paradise. The UK should butt out and stop thinking we still police the world. It is nothing to do with us and despite what governments pump out , the world is not black and white in terms of goodies and baddies , it is a mere grey world .Wars dont free people they enslave them to governments

    This is a case of vital nation interest. Our vital national interest.

    The mistake I think you're making is in seeing strategy and legitimacy as separate. They aren't. Russia's strategic stance is to attack democracy as a concept, hence its attempts to interfere with elections in numerous countries, and its punishment of Ukraine for deciding to take a more Western path. The strategy is to show democracies as weak, divided internally and from one another, dissolute, and corrupt. This strategy must be resisted in all sphere. This means showing ourselves to be capable to politically serious, to have effective systems of government that nurture the economy and protect the life and liberty of our people, and to stand up to direct armed assaults on our territorial integrity. Western democracy is provably better than the nasty mafia-style kleptocracy Russia has, and our very existence delegitimises Putin's state-level theft. He will always be our enemy. It would be nice if he were gone, but at the bare minimum we should at least protect ourselves from him. And "us" means any Western-facing, democratically minded country.

    Ukraine is in some ways a "new" country. It was freed from the oppressive shackles of Communism in (most of) our lifetimes. It's institutions are fragile and it needs space to grow. It's imperative that we help them because when people choose freedom and are crushed for it, it hurts freedom everywhere. If we cede freedom to oppression, oppression will come to us.
    Respectfully I think that's mere fluff and nice virtuous sentences. I dont want to go to war with somebody who could destroy the world . I don't even want to risk it by posturing . I actually could not care less about who runs Ukraine (as do most people)
    Well, the "fluff" I wrote is formally the same argument I would make for the justice of our involvement in fighting the Nazis.
    I would be interested to know whether you think that was a good fight for us to be in, and, if so, how your justification for that differs from mine. Genuinely, I think it's incumbent on anyone who has an opinion about this one way or another to consider carefully on what grounds you would sanction military action.

    i think the Nazis wanted to take over Europe not just a bit of it . They were clearly racists and extreme ones as well. The big difference though is that the nazis did not have nuclear weapons that could destroy the west within two days
    Sadly, the people at the heart of the Russian state are racists and extremists too.

    Also, Putin has a "Eurasian" strategy which deserves some in-depth reading if you want to grasp the threat Russia poses. This concept predates Putin's time as Russian leader but has accelerated under him, and in particular in the last decade or so.

    Nuclear weapons change the strategic calculations, but frankly, if we really think that Russia would resort to using nuclear weapons in response to it being repelled outside its own borders then the world is already in a lot more trouble than many realise. And Putin hasn't shown any evidence of being suicidal.
    I do wonder where Putin's fortune is currently stored.

    A few years ago there was a lot of tracing of assets he was thought to own via the Paradise Papers and so on.
  • RogerRoger Posts: 19,908

    Roger said:

    ping said:

    Scott_xP said:

    NEW🚨Aaron Bell, the Conservative MP for Newcastle-under-Lyme, has submitted a letter of no confidence in Boris Johnson

    Bell was elected in 2019 and is key voice among Red Wall colleagues dismayed by PM over partygate

    His letter is with Sir Graham Brady
    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/nusrat-ghani-i-was-sacked-as-a-minister-because-i-was-a-muslim-p38lmvlvg https://twitter.com/Gabriel_Pogrund/status/1485014035582095360/photo/1

    Bold move from @Tissue_Price

    Fair play to him for going public. I think it’s the decent thing to do.

    However, I’m not convinced it’s a smart move. I think it’s more likely than not, Boris survives. And politically, even if he goes, I think his replacement is likely to be less favourable towards red wall seats when it comes to cutting the pie.

    Sadly, I think Aaron will live to regret sending that letter.
    Why? He's got a decent chance of keeping his seat and he'll be able to sleep at nigh. What more could he want?
    I wouldn't entirely discount the possibility that TP knows what he is doing, believes in what he is doing, and means what he says.
    I couldn't agree with you more. I met him once campaigning for Nick and he struck me as serious and conscientious. The antithesis I imagine of your average Boris supporting Tory
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 35,990
    BREAKING: The UK has accused Russia of plotting to install a pro-Kremlin leader in Kyiv as Moscow weighs up new Ukraine invasion.
    In an unusual move based on declassified intelligence, the foreign office alleged an ex Ukrainian MP was “being considered as a potential candidate”

    https://twitter.com/haynesdeborah/status/1485020617539735561
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,249
    Phil said:

    Foxy said:

    Jonathan said:

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    Heads-up for all PB armchair warriors:

    Starship Troopers is on Paramount Network (Freeview 32, Sky 150) at 10.50pm.

    "MI do the dying, Fleet just do the flying"
    Heinlein's writing seemed to have two modes: utter trash or inspired genuis.

    The continual references to incest did nothing to enhance it
    Yes, but Verhoevan didn't exactly stick to the book. Just made one of the most morally disturbing Sci Fi films. A real hymn to Facism and genocide.
    Satire wasn’t it?
    The film yes. The book, no.
    Verhoevan didn't read the book - and so didn't realise the hero is actually a Filipino.

    If he wanted to make an anti-war film, why not buy the rights to The Forever War?

    Rather than the mess he created, which stole about half the action and plot from "Armor" by John Starkey. And then screwed it up.
    The film is great. It’s just that it’s not the book & that gets book fans knickers in a twist.

    It’s a satire of war propaganda & the militaristic fascism that the book (sort of) celebrates. A commentary in part on contemporary Hollywood’s hand in glove cosying up to the CIA & the US military. If you can’t see that the film is satirising fascist propaganda then I suggest that your media literaracy really needs some polishing up, because Verhoevan really wasn’t subtle about it.
    For the same themes, actually making The Forever War would have done a better job. That's why Haldeman wrote it in the first place!
  • Northern_AlNorthern_Al Posts: 8,375
    Farooq said:

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    Farooq said:

    Russia may be a bit dodgy in terms of it being run as a big men cartel but it is not unique in being a bit dodgy even amongst "western " countries and client states. I dont know much about ukraine politics but I doubt it is an angelic paradise. The UK should butt out and stop thinking we still police the world. It is nothing to do with us and despite what governments pump out , the world is not black and white in terms of goodies and baddies , it is a mere grey world .Wars dont free people they enslave them to governments

    This is a case of vital nation interest. Our vital national interest.

    The mistake I think you're making is in seeing strategy and legitimacy as separate. They aren't. Russia's strategic stance is to attack democracy as a concept, hence its attempts to interfere with elections in numerous countries, and its punishment of Ukraine for deciding to take a more Western path. The strategy is to show democracies as weak, divided internally and from one another, dissolute, and corrupt. This strategy must be resisted in all sphere. This means showing ourselves to be capable to politically serious, to have effective systems of government that nurture the economy and protect the life and liberty of our people, and to stand up to direct armed assaults on our territorial integrity. Western democracy is provably better than the nasty mafia-style kleptocracy Russia has, and our very existence delegitimises Putin's state-level theft. He will always be our enemy. It would be nice if he were gone, but at the bare minimum we should at least protect ourselves from him. And "us" means any Western-facing, democratically minded country.

    Ukraine is in some ways a "new" country. It was freed from the oppressive shackles of Communism in (most of) our lifetimes. It's institutions are fragile and it needs space to grow. It's imperative that we help them because when people choose freedom and are crushed for it, it hurts freedom everywhere. If we cede freedom to oppression, oppression will come to us.
    Respectfully I think that's mere fluff and nice virtuous sentences. I dont want to go to war with somebody who could destroy the world . I don't even want to risk it by posturing . I actually could not care less about who runs Ukraine (as do most people)
    If Russia invades Ukraine you will soon care very much
    How much did we care the last time they invaded, when they took Crimea, and the Donbas? Or when they took Abkazia, or Transnistra?

    The millions of displaced Ukraine citizens flooding into Europe will make everyone in Europe care
    So, are you really suggesting sending British fighting troops to fight Europe's most formidable military force? Not that we could deploy anything significant. Or perhaps bombs and cruise missiles onto Russian staging areas? Perhaps a little instant sunshine from Trident?

    Or just sanctions and arms to Ukraine?
    The idea of the UK holding Russia to account would be a bit more convincing if our government had taken effective action to stop the vast amounts of dodgy money belonging to Russian kleptocrats and friends of Putin swilling around our economy, distorting the London property market, buying up bits of our media, and, dare I say, possibly adding to the funds of our ruling party. Not to mention Chelsea FC.....
    The Conservatives are up to their necks in it, but that doesn't take away from the fact that in recent weeks the government's stance has been admirable. Kudos to Boris for this, or whoever is actually running the show.
    You say: "in recent weeks the government's stance has been admirable".
    I say: in matters of geo-politics, 'recent weeks' count for little, because it's often too late. We used to call it foreign policy - having a consistent line on our friends and foes for years on end, not just recent weeks.
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670

    Foxy said:

    Jonathan said:

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    Heads-up for all PB armchair warriors:

    Starship Troopers is on Paramount Network (Freeview 32, Sky 150) at 10.50pm.

    "MI do the dying, Fleet just do the flying"
    Heinlein's writing seemed to have two modes: utter trash or inspired genuis.

    The continual references to incest did nothing to enhance it
    Yes, but Verhoevan didn't exactly stick to the book. Just made one of the most morally disturbing Sci Fi films. A real hymn to Facism and genocide.
    Satire wasn’t it?
    The film yes. The book, no.
    Verhoevan didn't read the book - and so didn't realise the hero is actually a Filipino.
    He read the first two chapters but it made him bored and depressed so he stopped.

    I read the whole thing and really wished i hadn't.
  • pigeonpigeon Posts: 4,839
    The UK has accused President Putin of plotting to install a pro-Moscow figure to lead Ukraine's government.

    The Foreign Office took the unusual step of naming former Ukrainian MP Yevhen Murayev as a potential Kremlin candidate.

    ...

    Mr Murayev, a media owner, lost his seat in the Ukrainian parliament when his party failed to secure 5% of the vote in the 2019 elections.

    The Foreign Office also named four other Ukrainian politicians who it said maintained links with the Russian intelligence services.

    It said some of the individuals had been in contact with Russian intelligence officers working on an invasion plan.


    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-60095459
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 51,821
    edited January 2022
    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    Jonathan said:

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    Heads-up for all PB armchair warriors:

    Starship Troopers is on Paramount Network (Freeview 32, Sky 150) at 10.50pm.

    "MI do the dying, Fleet just do the flying"
    Heinlein's writing seemed to have two modes: utter trash or inspired genuis.

    The continual references to incest did nothing to enhance it
    Yes, but Verhoevan didn't exactly stick to the book. Just made one of the most morally disturbing Sci Fi films. A real hymn to Facism and genocide.
    Satire wasn’t it?
    The film yes. The book, no.
    Verhoevan didn't read the book - and so didn't realise the hero is actually a Filipino.

    If he wanted to make an anti-war film, why not buy the rights to The Forever War?

    Rather than the mess he created, which stole about half the action and plot from "Armor" by John Starkey. And then screwed it up.
    Starship Troopers is hardly an anti-war film. Indeed few films are so enthusiastic for it!

    The main protagonists in the film come from Argentina. I am a fan of the film, but Verhoevans films are always interesting. Even Showgirls, which has developed into Cult status.
    The film satirises pro-war armchair warriorhood!

    But I'm more of a Total Recall man, personally.

    Zwartboek was intriguing as well.
  • Beibheirli_CBeibheirli_C Posts: 8,163
    edited January 2022

    Foxy said:

    Jonathan said:

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    Heads-up for all PB armchair warriors:

    Starship Troopers is on Paramount Network (Freeview 32, Sky 150) at 10.50pm.

    "MI do the dying, Fleet just do the flying"
    Heinlein's writing seemed to have two modes: utter trash or inspired genuis.

    The continual references to incest did nothing to enhance it
    Yes, but Verhoevan didn't exactly stick to the book. Just made one of the most morally disturbing Sci Fi films. A real hymn to Facism and genocide.
    Satire wasn’t it?
    The film yes. The book, no.
    Verhoevan didn't read the book - and so didn't realise the hero is actually a Filipino.

    If he wanted to make an anti-war film, why not buy the rights to The Forever War?

    Rather than the mess he created, which stole about half the action and plot from "Armor" by John Starkey. And then screwed it up.
    The Forever War is a far better book. Haldeman was a good writer. Mindbridge and All My Sins Remembered are good reads as well
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,714

    Steve Baker MP FRSA
    @SteveBakerHW
    ·
    3h
    That Nus could be treated like this is completely intolerable.

    I value
    @Nus_Ghani
    as a great colleague and I'm appalled. We must get to the bottom of it.
    Quote Tweet

    https://twitter.com/SteveBakerHW/status/1484967648513650688
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,249
    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    Jonathan said:

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    Heads-up for all PB armchair warriors:

    Starship Troopers is on Paramount Network (Freeview 32, Sky 150) at 10.50pm.

    "MI do the dying, Fleet just do the flying"
    Heinlein's writing seemed to have two modes: utter trash or inspired genuis.

    The continual references to incest did nothing to enhance it
    Yes, but Verhoevan didn't exactly stick to the book. Just made one of the most morally disturbing Sci Fi films. A real hymn to Facism and genocide.
    Satire wasn’t it?
    The film yes. The book, no.
    Verhoevan didn't read the book - and so didn't realise the hero is actually a Filipino.

    If he wanted to make an anti-war film, why not buy the rights to The Forever War?

    Rather than the mess he created, which stole about half the action and plot from "Armor" by John Starkey. And then screwed it up.
    Starship Troopers is hardly an anti-war film. Indeed few films are so enthusiastic for it!

    The main protagonists in the film come from Argentina. I am a fan of the film, but Verhoevans films are always interesting. Even Showgirls, which has developed into Cult status.
    You do realise that "It iz a sumwot labud sattire" as T. K. Nupton phrased it in his seminal work on late nineteenth-century literature?

    The hero of the film seemed awfully... er... Aryan for Argentina. Perhaps he was an orphan brought up by foster parents, and visited by Sir Laurence Olivier?
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,633
    edited January 2022
    Nigelb said:

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    Heads-up for all PB armchair warriors:

    Starship Troopers is on Paramount Network (Freeview 32, Sky 150) at 10.50pm.

    "MI do the dying, Fleet just do the flying"
    Heinlein's writing seemed to have two modes: utter trash or inspired genuis.

    The continual references to incest did nothing to enhance it
    Yes, but Verhoevan didn't exactly stick to the book. Just made one of the most morally disturbing Sci Fi films. A real hymn to Facism and genocide.
    Hymn, or extended piss take ?
    The thing is with Verhoevan, it is always hard to be sure, just look at his other films. Both Black Book and Soldier of Orange are quite morally ambiguous, and is Robocop satirical?
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,249

    Foxy said:

    Jonathan said:

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    Heads-up for all PB armchair warriors:

    Starship Troopers is on Paramount Network (Freeview 32, Sky 150) at 10.50pm.

    "MI do the dying, Fleet just do the flying"
    Heinlein's writing seemed to have two modes: utter trash or inspired genuis.

    The continual references to incest did nothing to enhance it
    Yes, but Verhoevan didn't exactly stick to the book. Just made one of the most morally disturbing Sci Fi films. A real hymn to Facism and genocide.
    Satire wasn’t it?
    The film yes. The book, no.
    Verhoevan didn't read the book - and so didn't realise the hero is actually a Filipino.

    If he wanted to make an anti-war film, why not buy the rights to The Forever War?

    Rather than the mess he created, which stole about half the action and plot from "Armor" by John Starkey. And then screwed it up.
    The Forever War is a far better book. Haldeman was a good writer. Mindbridge and All My Sins Remembered are good reads as well
    It is to Heinlein's credit that when Forever War came out, he turned up at the next big science fiction convention, handing out copies, practically demanding people vote for it as the best book of the year.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,714

    Michael Fabricant
    @Mike_Fabricant
    A former minister who had been plotting against #Boris for some time now suddenly blames her sacking on #Islamophobia when (a) there are many excellent Muslim ministers in the Government and (b) she was nice but unimaginative and mediocre.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,249

    Farooq said:

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    Farooq said:

    Russia may be a bit dodgy in terms of it being run as a big men cartel but it is not unique in being a bit dodgy even amongst "western " countries and client states. I dont know much about ukraine politics but I doubt it is an angelic paradise. The UK should butt out and stop thinking we still police the world. It is nothing to do with us and despite what governments pump out , the world is not black and white in terms of goodies and baddies , it is a mere grey world .Wars dont free people they enslave them to governments

    This is a case of vital nation interest. Our vital national interest.

    The mistake I think you're making is in seeing strategy and legitimacy as separate. They aren't. Russia's strategic stance is to attack democracy as a concept, hence its attempts to interfere with elections in numerous countries, and its punishment of Ukraine for deciding to take a more Western path. The strategy is to show democracies as weak, divided internally and from one another, dissolute, and corrupt. This strategy must be resisted in all sphere. This means showing ourselves to be capable to politically serious, to have effective systems of government that nurture the economy and protect the life and liberty of our people, and to stand up to direct armed assaults on our territorial integrity. Western democracy is provably better than the nasty mafia-style kleptocracy Russia has, and our very existence delegitimises Putin's state-level theft. He will always be our enemy. It would be nice if he were gone, but at the bare minimum we should at least protect ourselves from him. And "us" means any Western-facing, democratically minded country.

    Ukraine is in some ways a "new" country. It was freed from the oppressive shackles of Communism in (most of) our lifetimes. It's institutions are fragile and it needs space to grow. It's imperative that we help them because when people choose freedom and are crushed for it, it hurts freedom everywhere. If we cede freedom to oppression, oppression will come to us.
    Respectfully I think that's mere fluff and nice virtuous sentences. I dont want to go to war with somebody who could destroy the world . I don't even want to risk it by posturing . I actually could not care less about who runs Ukraine (as do most people)
    If Russia invades Ukraine you will soon care very much
    How much did we care the last time they invaded, when they took Crimea, and the Donbas? Or when they took Abkazia, or Transnistra?

    The millions of displaced Ukraine citizens flooding into Europe will make everyone in Europe care
    So, are you really suggesting sending British fighting troops to fight Europe's most formidable military force? Not that we could deploy anything significant. Or perhaps bombs and cruise missiles onto Russian staging areas? Perhaps a little instant sunshine from Trident?

    Or just sanctions and arms to Ukraine?
    The idea of the UK holding Russia to account would be a bit more convincing if our government had taken effective action to stop the vast amounts of dodgy money belonging to Russian kleptocrats and friends of Putin swilling around our economy, distorting the London property market, buying up bits of our media, and, dare I say, possibly adding to the funds of our ruling party. Not to mention Chelsea FC.....
    The Conservatives are up to their necks in it, but that doesn't take away from the fact that in recent weeks the government's stance has been admirable. Kudos to Boris for this, or whoever is actually running the show.
    You say: "in recent weeks the government's stance has been admirable".
    I say: in matters of geo-politics, 'recent weeks' count for little, because it's often too late. We used to call it foreign policy - having a consistent line on our friends and foes for years on end, not just recent weeks.
    The UK government has fairly consistently been opposing Russian actions since before Cameron got the job. Occasionally you get people claiming that because we haven't tried to nuke Moscow or something we are being soft on them, but it's actually been a fairly consistent policy.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,714

    Keir Starmer
    @Keir_Starmer
    ·
    54m
    This is shocking to read, the Conservatives must investigate immediately. Solidarity with
    @Nus_Ghani
    for your bravery in speaking out.

    There’s report after report of appalling behaviour and lack of respect at the centre of this government.

    Culture is set at the top.

    https://twitter.com/Keir_Starmer/status/1485009933238157317
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,523
    pigeon said:

    The UK has accused President Putin of plotting to install a pro-Moscow figure to lead Ukraine's government.

    The Foreign Office took the unusual step of naming former Ukrainian MP Yevhen Murayev as a potential Kremlin candidate.

    ...

    Mr Murayev, a media owner, lost his seat in the Ukrainian parliament when his party failed to secure 5% of the vote in the 2019 elections.

    The Foreign Office also named four other Ukrainian politicians who it said maintained links with the Russian intelligence services.

    It said some of the individuals had been in contact with Russian intelligence officers working on an invasion plan.


    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-60095459

    Then again...

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/jan/22/confusion-over-uk-claim-that-putin-plans-coup-in-ukraine

  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 21,298
    edited January 2022
    Boris agreed to an Islamophobia probe during the leadership hustings.

    Junked of course, like every promise he’s ever made.
  • FairlieredFairliered Posts: 4,931


    Michael Fabricant
    @Mike_Fabricant
    A former minister who had been plotting against #Boris for some time now suddenly blames her sacking on #Islamophobia when (a) there are many excellent Muslim ministers in the Government and (b) she was nice but unimaginative and mediocre.

    In an alternative universe, Michael Fabricant calls someone else unimaginative and mediocre.
  • Beibheirli_CBeibheirli_C Posts: 8,163

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    Jonathan said:

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    Heads-up for all PB armchair warriors:

    Starship Troopers is on Paramount Network (Freeview 32, Sky 150) at 10.50pm.

    "MI do the dying, Fleet just do the flying"
    Heinlein's writing seemed to have two modes: utter trash or inspired genuis.

    The continual references to incest did nothing to enhance it
    Yes, but Verhoevan didn't exactly stick to the book. Just made one of the most morally disturbing Sci Fi films. A real hymn to Facism and genocide.
    Satire wasn’t it?
    The film yes. The book, no.
    Verhoevan didn't read the book - and so didn't realise the hero is actually a Filipino.

    If he wanted to make an anti-war film, why not buy the rights to The Forever War?

    Rather than the mess he created, which stole about half the action and plot from "Armor" by John Starkey. And then screwed it up.
    Starship Troopers is hardly an anti-war film. Indeed few films are so enthusiastic for it!

    The main protagonists in the film come from Argentina. I am a fan of the film, but Verhoevans films are always interesting. Even Showgirls, which has developed into Cult status.
    The film satirises pro-war armchair warriorhood!

    But I'm more of a Total Recall man, personally.

    Zwartboek was intriguing as well.
    Dick's short story "We can remember it for you wholesale" on which Total Recall was based had a much better twist to it, but Bladerunner was a far better version of the story than the original "Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep"
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    Weird observation, but kind of nuts to see three Western European KINGDOMS (Britain, Spain & the Netherlands) standing up for Ukraine’s republic against an aggressive tyrant while the two most powerful REPUBLICS (France & Germany) sit it out or actively undermine NATO response

    https://twitter.com/apmassaro3/status/1484924939098640385?s=21

    As subsequent tweets point out, other Western European Kingdoms like Denmark & Sweden are also lending a hand….
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 21,298
    Michael Fabricant, Jacob Rees-Mogg, John Redwood.

    The Tory Party has more looney tune arseholes than the men’s loos at Warner Brothers studios.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216

    Farooq said:

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    Farooq said:

    Russia may be a bit dodgy in terms of it being run as a big men cartel but it is not unique in being a bit dodgy even amongst "western " countries and client states. I dont know much about ukraine politics but I doubt it is an angelic paradise. The UK should butt out and stop thinking we still police the world. It is nothing to do with us and despite what governments pump out , the world is not black and white in terms of goodies and baddies , it is a mere grey world .Wars dont free people they enslave them to governments

    This is a case of vital nation interest. Our vital national interest.

    The mistake I think you're making is in seeing strategy and legitimacy as separate. They aren't. Russia's strategic stance is to attack democracy as a concept, hence its attempts to interfere with elections in numerous countries, and its punishment of Ukraine for deciding to take a more Western path. The strategy is to show democracies as weak, divided internally and from one another, dissolute, and corrupt. This strategy must be resisted in all sphere. This means showing ourselves to be capable to politically serious, to have effective systems of government that nurture the economy and protect the life and liberty of our people, and to stand up to direct armed assaults on our territorial integrity. Western democracy is provably better than the nasty mafia-style kleptocracy Russia has, and our very existence delegitimises Putin's state-level theft. He will always be our enemy. It would be nice if he were gone, but at the bare minimum we should at least protect ourselves from him. And "us" means any Western-facing, democratically minded country.

    Ukraine is in some ways a "new" country. It was freed from the oppressive shackles of Communism in (most of) our lifetimes. It's institutions are fragile and it needs space to grow. It's imperative that we help them because when people choose freedom and are crushed for it, it hurts freedom everywhere. If we cede freedom to oppression, oppression will come to us.
    Respectfully I think that's mere fluff and nice virtuous sentences. I dont want to go to war with somebody who could destroy the world . I don't even want to risk it by posturing . I actually could not care less about who runs Ukraine (as do most people)
    If Russia invades Ukraine you will soon care very much
    How much did we care the last time they invaded, when they took Crimea, and the Donbas? Or when they took Abkazia, or Transnistra?

    The millions of displaced Ukraine citizens flooding into Europe will make everyone in Europe care
    So, are you really suggesting sending British fighting troops to fight Europe's most formidable military force? Not that we could deploy anything significant. Or perhaps bombs and cruise missiles onto Russian staging areas? Perhaps a little instant sunshine from Trident?

    Or just sanctions and arms to Ukraine?
    The idea of the UK holding Russia to account would be a bit more convincing if our government had taken effective action to stop the vast amounts of dodgy money belonging to Russian kleptocrats and friends of Putin swilling around our economy, distorting the London property market, buying up bits of our media, and, dare I say, possibly adding to the funds of our ruling party. Not to mention Chelsea FC.....
    The Conservatives are up to their necks in it, but that doesn't take away from the fact that in recent weeks the government's stance has been admirable. Kudos to Boris for this, or whoever is actually running the show.
    You say: "in recent weeks the government's stance has been admirable".
    I say: in matters of geo-politics, 'recent weeks' count for little, because it's often too late. We used to call it foreign policy - having a consistent line on our friends and foes for years on end, not just recent weeks.
    The UK government has fairly consistently been opposing Russian actions since before Cameron got the job. Occasionally you get people claiming that because we haven't tried to nuke Moscow or something we are being soft on them, but it's actually been a fairly consistent policy.
    The Ukrainians trace the hardening of the UK’s stance to the poisoning of Litvinenko, leaving a trail of Polonium across London…then came Salisbury…
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,630
    edited January 2022
    Aaron has sent out this.

    SPECULATION IN SUNDAY TIMES.

    The Sunday Times have reported that I have submitted a letter to the Chair of the 1922 Committee.

    When I was asked about this by the Sunday Times, I gave them the same answer that I have given constituents who have written to me, namely that I do not intend to comment on what is an internal and confidential process within the Parliamentary party.

    In the interests of being open with my constituents, it is no secret at Westminster that I have been unhappy about many aspects of the Number 10 operation. I have been quite open with the whips and earlier this week I spoke plainly to the Prime Minister about my concerns.

    Like many colleagues, I am now awaiting the report being prepared by Sue Gray into "parties" at Downing Street, and the subsequent statement the Prime Minister has promised to make. I do not intend to comment further on this issue until after that report is published.
  • RogerRoger Posts: 19,908

    Boris agreed to an Islamophobia probe during the leadership hustings.

    Junked of course, like every promise he’s ever made.

    It looks like there's one huge bull loose in the china shop that used to be the Tory Party It's almost certainly Dom but this is so well calibrated there must be someone on the inside. Govey perhaps?
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,249

    Farooq said:

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    Farooq said:

    Russia may be a bit dodgy in terms of it being run as a big men cartel but it is not unique in being a bit dodgy even amongst "western " countries and client states. I dont know much about ukraine politics but I doubt it is an angelic paradise. The UK should butt out and stop thinking we still police the world. It is nothing to do with us and despite what governments pump out , the world is not black and white in terms of goodies and baddies , it is a mere grey world .Wars dont free people they enslave them to governments

    This is a case of vital nation interest. Our vital national interest.

    The mistake I think you're making is in seeing strategy and legitimacy as separate. They aren't. Russia's strategic stance is to attack democracy as a concept, hence its attempts to interfere with elections in numerous countries, and its punishment of Ukraine for deciding to take a more Western path. The strategy is to show democracies as weak, divided internally and from one another, dissolute, and corrupt. This strategy must be resisted in all sphere. This means showing ourselves to be capable to politically serious, to have effective systems of government that nurture the economy and protect the life and liberty of our people, and to stand up to direct armed assaults on our territorial integrity. Western democracy is provably better than the nasty mafia-style kleptocracy Russia has, and our very existence delegitimises Putin's state-level theft. He will always be our enemy. It would be nice if he were gone, but at the bare minimum we should at least protect ourselves from him. And "us" means any Western-facing, democratically minded country.

    Ukraine is in some ways a "new" country. It was freed from the oppressive shackles of Communism in (most of) our lifetimes. It's institutions are fragile and it needs space to grow. It's imperative that we help them because when people choose freedom and are crushed for it, it hurts freedom everywhere. If we cede freedom to oppression, oppression will come to us.
    Respectfully I think that's mere fluff and nice virtuous sentences. I dont want to go to war with somebody who could destroy the world . I don't even want to risk it by posturing . I actually could not care less about who runs Ukraine (as do most people)
    If Russia invades Ukraine you will soon care very much
    How much did we care the last time they invaded, when they took Crimea, and the Donbas? Or when they took Abkazia, or Transnistra?

    The millions of displaced Ukraine citizens flooding into Europe will make everyone in Europe care
    So, are you really suggesting sending British fighting troops to fight Europe's most formidable military force? Not that we could deploy anything significant. Or perhaps bombs and cruise missiles onto Russian staging areas? Perhaps a little instant sunshine from Trident?

    Or just sanctions and arms to Ukraine?
    The idea of the UK holding Russia to account would be a bit more convincing if our government had taken effective action to stop the vast amounts of dodgy money belonging to Russian kleptocrats and friends of Putin swilling around our economy, distorting the London property market, buying up bits of our media, and, dare I say, possibly adding to the funds of our ruling party. Not to mention Chelsea FC.....
    The Conservatives are up to their necks in it, but that doesn't take away from the fact that in recent weeks the government's stance has been admirable. Kudos to Boris for this, or whoever is actually running the show.
    You say: "in recent weeks the government's stance has been admirable".
    I say: in matters of geo-politics, 'recent weeks' count for little, because it's often too late. We used to call it foreign policy - having a consistent line on our friends and foes for years on end, not just recent weeks.
    The UK government has fairly consistently been opposing Russian actions since before Cameron got the job. Occasionally you get people claiming that because we haven't tried to nuke Moscow or something we are being soft on them, but it's actually been a fairly consistent policy.
    The Ukrainians trace the hardening of the UK’s stance to the poisoning of Litvinenko, leaving a trail of Polonium across London…then came Salisbury…
    Long before that there were sanctions (limited, true) and condemnation from the UK over, for example, Chechnya.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,083

    Foxy said:

    Jonathan said:

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    Heads-up for all PB armchair warriors:

    Starship Troopers is on Paramount Network (Freeview 32, Sky 150) at 10.50pm.

    "MI do the dying, Fleet just do the flying"
    Heinlein's writing seemed to have two modes: utter trash or inspired genuis.

    The continual references to incest did nothing to enhance it
    Yes, but Verhoevan didn't exactly stick to the book. Just made one of the most morally disturbing Sci Fi films. A real hymn to Facism and genocide.
    Satire wasn’t it?
    The film yes. The book, no.
    Verhoevan didn't read the book - and so didn't realise the hero is actually a Filipino.

    If he wanted to make an anti-war film, why not buy the rights to The Forever War?

    Rather than the mess he created, which stole about half the action and plot from "Armor" by John Starkey. And then screwed it up.
    It's a great movie - fun (and funny), camp, and occasionally shockingly brutal
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 21,298
    Roger said:

    Boris agreed to an Islamophobia probe during the leadership hustings.

    Junked of course, like every promise he’s ever made.

    It looks like there's one huge bull loose in the china shop that used to be the Tory Party It's almost certainly Dom but this is so well calibrated there must be someone on the inside. Govey perhaps?
    Too busy ordering “fruit and flowers”.
  • Alistair said:

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    Heads-up for all PB armchair warriors:

    Starship Troopers is on Paramount Network (Freeview 32, Sky 150) at 10.50pm.

    "MI do the dying, Fleet just do the flying"
    Heinlein's writing seemed to have two modes: utter trash or inspired genuis.

    The continual references to incest did nothing to enhance it
    Yes, but Verhoevan didn't exactly stick to the book. Just made one of the most morally disturbing Sci Fi films. A real hymn to Facism and genocide.
    Its not a hymn to facism and genocide. It is a balls to the wall satire of the same.

    If you think the film is glorifying anything you are watching it wrong.

    Now the book, the book is both dull as dishwater and an absolute paen for fascism from first to last. Completely lauding the idea of "worthy" and "unworthy" citizens.

    Thr film however is taking the god damn piss.
    If you think the book is a paean for fascism then you need to go back to school and try again.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,368

    HYUFD doesn't exactly do the image of the modern Tory party a lot of favours.

    HY is the image of the modern Conservative Party or vice versa.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,175
    The Tigers win the football game in Starship Troopers. A good omen for the Cincinnati Bengals?
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    Boris Johnson allies there complaining about something being “incredibly cynical manipulation”

    https://twitter.com/robfordmancs/status/1485026898472230915?s=20
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,083

    Foxy said:

    Jonathan said:

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    Heads-up for all PB armchair warriors:

    Starship Troopers is on Paramount Network (Freeview 32, Sky 150) at 10.50pm.

    "MI do the dying, Fleet just do the flying"
    Heinlein's writing seemed to have two modes: utter trash or inspired genuis.

    The continual references to incest did nothing to enhance it
    Yes, but Verhoevan didn't exactly stick to the book. Just made one of the most morally disturbing Sci Fi films. A real hymn to Facism and genocide.
    Satire wasn’t it?
    The film yes. The book, no.
    Verhoevan didn't read the book - and so didn't realise the hero is actually a Filipino.

    If he wanted to make an anti-war film, why not buy the rights to The Forever War?

    Rather than the mess he created, which stole about half the action and plot from "Armor" by John Starkey. And then screwed it up.
    The Forever War is a far better book.
    Tends to come in a collection with Forever Free and Forever Peace thesedays, which...are not good books however.

    Speculated before on how the bit in Forever War where the protagonists finds society has developed into one which finds heterosexuality practically taboo is considered thesedays.
  • ApplicantApplicant Posts: 3,379
    tlg86 said:

    The Tigers win the football game in Starship Troopers. A good omen for the Cincinnati Bengals?

    "He's in there! It's over!"
  • Beibheirli_CBeibheirli_C Posts: 8,163

    Alistair said:

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    Heads-up for all PB armchair warriors:

    Starship Troopers is on Paramount Network (Freeview 32, Sky 150) at 10.50pm.

    "MI do the dying, Fleet just do the flying"
    Heinlein's writing seemed to have two modes: utter trash or inspired genuis.

    The continual references to incest did nothing to enhance it
    Yes, but Verhoevan didn't exactly stick to the book. Just made one of the most morally disturbing Sci Fi films. A real hymn to Facism and genocide.
    Its not a hymn to facism and genocide. It is a balls to the wall satire of the same.

    If you think the film is glorifying anything you are watching it wrong.

    Now the book, the book is both dull as dishwater and an absolute paen for fascism from first to last. Completely lauding the idea of "worthy" and "unworthy" citizens.

    Thr film however is taking the god damn piss.
    If you think the book is a paean for fascism then you need to go back to school and try again.
    Given the stories on Twitter tonight, perhaps we should be topical and move from fascism to racism.

    Blazing Saddles anyone? ;)
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,553
    Scott_xP said:

    NEW🚨Aaron Bell, the Conservative MP for Newcastle-under-Lyme, has submitted a letter of no confidence in Boris Johnson

    Bell was elected in 2019 and is key voice among Red Wall colleagues dismayed by PM over partygate

    His letter is with Sir Graham Brady
    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/nusrat-ghani-i-was-sacked-as-a-minister-because-i-was-a-muslim-p38lmvlvg https://twitter.com/Gabriel_Pogrund/status/1485014035582095360/photo/1

    Someone send Boris some tissues. (I'll get my coat).
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,083
    edited January 2022
    What I find remarkable is that there were people at the time who thought the movie Starship Troopers was meant to be taken po facedly seriously. I mean come on, a scene of lousy propaganda of kids stamping on bugs and a grouchy person going 'The only good bug is a dead bug' to camera? As noted above the Director sure ain't subtle.

    There's no way it was serious, and that's part of its appeal.
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670

    Alistair said:

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    Heads-up for all PB armchair warriors:

    Starship Troopers is on Paramount Network (Freeview 32, Sky 150) at 10.50pm.

    "MI do the dying, Fleet just do the flying"
    Heinlein's writing seemed to have two modes: utter trash or inspired genuis.

    The continual references to incest did nothing to enhance it
    Yes, but Verhoevan didn't exactly stick to the book. Just made one of the most morally disturbing Sci Fi films. A real hymn to Facism and genocide.
    Its not a hymn to facism and genocide. It is a balls to the wall satire of the same.

    If you think the film is glorifying anything you are watching it wrong.

    Now the book, the book is both dull as dishwater and an absolute paen for fascism from first to last. Completely lauding the idea of "worthy" and "unworthy" citizens.

    Thr film however is taking the god damn piss.
    If you think the book is a paean for fascism then you need to go back to school and try again.
    Starship Troopers the book lauds a society with two levels of citizenry where true citizenship only comes from the sacrifice of blood.

    All justified with the "unarguable" moral calculus.

  • Alistair said:

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    Heads-up for all PB armchair warriors:

    Starship Troopers is on Paramount Network (Freeview 32, Sky 150) at 10.50pm.

    "MI do the dying, Fleet just do the flying"
    Heinlein's writing seemed to have two modes: utter trash or inspired genuis.

    The continual references to incest did nothing to enhance it
    Yes, but Verhoevan didn't exactly stick to the book. Just made one of the most morally disturbing Sci Fi films. A real hymn to Facism and genocide.
    Its not a hymn to facism and genocide. It is a balls to the wall satire of the same.

    If you think the film is glorifying anything you are watching it wrong.

    Now the book, the book is both dull as dishwater and an absolute paen for fascism from first to last. Completely lauding the idea of "worthy" and "unworthy" citizens.

    Thr film however is taking the god damn piss.
    If you think the book is a paean for fascism then you need to go back to school and try again.
    Given the stories on Twitter tonight, perhaps we should be topical and move from fascism to racism.

    Blazing Saddles anyone? ;)
    Not seen the stories as I don't do twitter. What is the latest storm about?
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 21,298
    So the Boris show has been accused of lies, hypocrisy, corruption and now racism. Very largely from his own benches.

    I’ll hear the champagne corks popping all the way here in Manhattan when the crooked sea-lion finally barks his last.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    As the U.K. and Baltic states announce that they will support Ukraine with anti-tank missiles and ground-to-air missiles, German Defense Minister Christine Lambrecht says weapons are not the way to defuse the border crisis.

    https://twitter.com/POLITICOEurope/status/1484859289504260103?s=20
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,083

    Alistair said:

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    Heads-up for all PB armchair warriors:

    Starship Troopers is on Paramount Network (Freeview 32, Sky 150) at 10.50pm.

    "MI do the dying, Fleet just do the flying"
    Heinlein's writing seemed to have two modes: utter trash or inspired genuis.

    The continual references to incest did nothing to enhance it
    Yes, but Verhoevan didn't exactly stick to the book. Just made one of the most morally disturbing Sci Fi films. A real hymn to Facism and genocide.
    Its not a hymn to facism and genocide. It is a balls to the wall satire of the same.

    If you think the film is glorifying anything you are watching it wrong.

    Now the book, the book is both dull as dishwater and an absolute paen for fascism from first to last. Completely lauding the idea of "worthy" and "unworthy" citizens.

    Thr film however is taking the god damn piss.
    If you think the book is a paean for fascism then you need to go back to school and try again.
    Given the stories on Twitter tonight, perhaps we should be topical and move from fascism to racism.

    Blazing Saddles anyone? ;)
    Watched it recently. Honestly, didn't hold up for me as much as I'd have thought.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,310
    edited January 2022
    It does rather feel as if all discipline in the Tory party has broken down.

    Anyway, on a completely unrelated topic, the following article is very well worth reading - https://twitter.com/fotoole/status/1484875659222659075?s=21.

    By the every brilliant Fintan O'Toole on what happens when you make a mess of an investigation.

    Short version: you turn a disaster into a catastrophe. But do read the whole thing.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,368
    MattW said:

    Just a reminder that Nus Ghani was sacked for being a Muslim the same time the Muslim Sajid Javid was ousted as Chancellor.

    Hmmm....

    Was that not thought to be Mr Cummings doing?
    Well that was the spin....
    I'm doubtful about this. Boris may be many things but not dumb-ass racist. He's a one-man melting pot.
    I am SHOCKED a Prime Minister who compared Muslim women wearing the burqa to “letterboxes” and “bank robbers” would appoint Islamophobes to his government.
    Don't forget the piccaninnies!
    Heavily overegged.

    "Picaninnies" was a good satire of Tony Blair's imperial progress to avoid the UK where he was unpopular.

    Letterboxes and bank robbers were exactly the same sentiments as previous comments by the likes of Harriet Harman, expressed in journalese rather than politico.
    The "letterboxes" and "bankrobbers" speech was not satire it was a carefully crafted dog whistle. Besides which it is humourless.

    And picanninies and the offensive stereotypical observation? Who uses such old colonialist terms, other than an old colonialist?
  • Beibheirli_CBeibheirli_C Posts: 8,163

    Aaron has sent out this.

    SPECULATION IN SUNDAY TIMES.

    The Sunday Times have reported that I have submitted a letter to the Chair of the 1922 Committee.

    When I was asked about this by the Sunday Times, I gave them the same answer that I have given constituents who have written to me, namely that I do not intend to comment on what is an internal and confidential process within the Parliamentary party.

    In the interests of being open with my constituents, it is no secret at Westminster that I have been unhappy about many aspects of the Number 10 operation. I have been quite open with the whips and earlier this week I spoke plainly to the Prime Minister about my concerns.

    Like many colleagues, I am now awaiting the report being prepared by Sue Gray into "parties" at Downing Street, and the subsequent statement the Prime Minister has promised to make. I do not intend to comment further on this issue until after that report is published.

    Is that a Non-denial denial, a Denial non-denial, a non-denial non-denial or a straight out denial?

    It all seems to be getting a bit mixed
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,083
    edited January 2022

    MattW said:

    Just a reminder that Nus Ghani was sacked for being a Muslim the same time the Muslim Sajid Javid was ousted as Chancellor.

    Hmmm....

    Was that not thought to be Mr Cummings doing?
    Well that was the spin....
    I'm doubtful about this. Boris may be many things but not dumb-ass racist. He's a one-man melting pot.
    I am SHOCKED a Prime Minister who compared Muslim women wearing the burqa to “letterboxes” and “bank robbers” would appoint Islamophobes to his government.
    Don't forget the piccaninnies!
    Heavily overegged.

    "Picaninnies" was a good satire of Tony Blair's imperial progress to avoid the UK where he was unpopular.

    Letterboxes and bank robbers were exactly the same sentiments as previous comments by the likes of Harriet Harman, expressed in journalese rather than politico.
    The "letterboxes" and "bankrobbers" speech was not satire it was a carefully crafted dog whistle. Besides which it is humourless.

    And picanninies and the offensive stereotypical observation? Who uses such old colonialist terms, other than an old colonialist?
    The thing about his old comments is it is the same old ones each time, from an increasingly long time ago, so however wrong it might be if not backed up by more recent events and actions, it loses teeth as an effective attack, since it is not as though the Cabinet is undiverse. The Ghani allegation is doubly serious both for itself, and for making quite older stuff suddenly seem more part of a patten.
  • edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 17,708

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    Farooq said:

    Russia may be a bit dodgy in terms of it being run as a big men cartel but it is not unique in being a bit dodgy even amongst "western " countries and client states. I dont know much about ukraine politics but I doubt it is an angelic paradise. The UK should butt out and stop thinking we still police the world. It is nothing to do with us and despite what governments pump out , the world is not black and white in terms of goodies and baddies , it is a mere grey world .Wars dont free people they enslave them to governments

    This is a case of vital nation interest. Our vital national interest.

    The mistake I think you're making is in seeing strategy and legitimacy as separate. They aren't. Russia's strategic stance is to attack democracy as a concept, hence its attempts to interfere with elections in numerous countries, and its punishment of Ukraine for deciding to take a more Western path. The strategy is to show democracies as weak, divided internally and from one another, dissolute, and corrupt. This strategy must be resisted in all sphere. This means showing ourselves to be capable to politically serious, to have effective systems of government that nurture the economy and protect the life and liberty of our people, and to stand up to direct armed assaults on our territorial integrity. Western democracy is provably better than the nasty mafia-style kleptocracy Russia has, and our very existence delegitimises Putin's state-level theft. He will always be our enemy. It would be nice if he were gone, but at the bare minimum we should at least protect ourselves from him. And "us" means any Western-facing, democratically minded country.

    Ukraine is in some ways a "new" country. It was freed from the oppressive shackles of Communism in (most of) our lifetimes. It's institutions are fragile and it needs space to grow. It's imperative that we help them because when people choose freedom and are crushed for it, it hurts freedom everywhere. If we cede freedom to oppression, oppression will come to us.
    Respectfully I think that's mere fluff and nice virtuous sentences. I dont want to go to war with somebody who could destroy the world . I don't even want to risk it by posturing . I actually could not care less about who runs Ukraine (as do most people)
    If Russia invades Ukraine you will soon care very much
    How much did we care the last time they invaded, when they took Crimea, and the Donbas? Or when they took Abkazia, or Transnistra?

    The millions of displaced Ukraine citizens flooding into Europe will make everyone in Europe care
    So, are you really suggesting sending British fighting troops to fight Europe's most formidable military force? Not that we could deploy anything significant. Or perhaps bombs and cruise missiles onto Russian staging areas? Perhaps a little instant sunshine from Trident?

    Or just sanctions and arms to Ukraine?
    The idea of the UK holding Russia to account would be a bit more convincing if our government had taken effective action to stop the vast amounts of dodgy money belonging to Russian kleptocrats and friends of Putin swilling around our economy, distorting the London property market, buying up bits of our media, and, dare I say, possibly adding to the funds of our ruling party. Not to mention Chelsea FC.....
    Is there a lot they practically could do, or would a crackdown on Russian kleptocrats end up like all the other anti-money-laundering stuff which mostly seems to involve refusing to do banking stuff for anybody who might secretly be a Russian kleptocrat, ie anybody, until the bank has seen a recent British Gas quarterly statement?
  • Alistair said:

    Alistair said:

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    Heads-up for all PB armchair warriors:

    Starship Troopers is on Paramount Network (Freeview 32, Sky 150) at 10.50pm.

    "MI do the dying, Fleet just do the flying"
    Heinlein's writing seemed to have two modes: utter trash or inspired genuis.

    The continual references to incest did nothing to enhance it
    Yes, but Verhoevan didn't exactly stick to the book. Just made one of the most morally disturbing Sci Fi films. A real hymn to Facism and genocide.
    Its not a hymn to facism and genocide. It is a balls to the wall satire of the same.

    If you think the film is glorifying anything you are watching it wrong.

    Now the book, the book is both dull as dishwater and an absolute paen for fascism from first to last. Completely lauding the idea of "worthy" and "unworthy" citizens.

    Thr film however is taking the god damn piss.
    If you think the book is a paean for fascism then you need to go back to school and try again.
    Starship Troopers the book lauds a society with two levels of citizenry where true citizenship only comes from the sacrifice of blood.

    All justified with the "unarguable" moral calculus.

    Nope it lauds a society with two levels of citizenry where true citizenship only comes from service. Indeed it doesn't even have to be military service as Heinlein himself made clear. It is like criticising France as being militaristic for having National Service when the vast majority of those who served did so in non military occupations.

    The very left wing Science Fiction author Ken MacLeod has written a lot on this and thinks the claims of fascism are simply wrong.
  • Alistair said:

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    Heads-up for all PB armchair warriors:

    Starship Troopers is on Paramount Network (Freeview 32, Sky 150) at 10.50pm.

    "MI do the dying, Fleet just do the flying"
    Heinlein's writing seemed to have two modes: utter trash or inspired genuis.

    The continual references to incest did nothing to enhance it
    Yes, but Verhoevan didn't exactly stick to the book. Just made one of the most morally disturbing Sci Fi films. A real hymn to Facism and genocide.
    Its not a hymn to facism and genocide. It is a balls to the wall satire of the same.

    If you think the film is glorifying anything you are watching it wrong.

    Now the book, the book is both dull as dishwater and an absolute paen for fascism from first to last. Completely lauding the idea of "worthy" and "unworthy" citizens.

    Thr film however is taking the god damn piss.
    If you think the book is a paean for fascism then you need to go back to school and try again.
    Given the stories on Twitter tonight, perhaps we should be topical and move from fascism to racism.

    Blazing Saddles anyone? ;)
    The Three Amigos was on Film4 earlier today :lol:
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,249
    kle4 said:

    Foxy said:

    Jonathan said:

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    Heads-up for all PB armchair warriors:

    Starship Troopers is on Paramount Network (Freeview 32, Sky 150) at 10.50pm.

    "MI do the dying, Fleet just do the flying"
    Heinlein's writing seemed to have two modes: utter trash or inspired genuis.

    The continual references to incest did nothing to enhance it
    Yes, but Verhoevan didn't exactly stick to the book. Just made one of the most morally disturbing Sci Fi films. A real hymn to Facism and genocide.
    Satire wasn’t it?
    The film yes. The book, no.
    Verhoevan didn't read the book - and so didn't realise the hero is actually a Filipino.

    If he wanted to make an anti-war film, why not buy the rights to The Forever War?

    Rather than the mess he created, which stole about half the action and plot from "Armor" by John Starkey. And then screwed it up.
    The Forever War is a far better book.
    Tends to come in a collection with Forever Free and Forever Peace thesedays, which...are not good books however.

    Speculated before on how the bit in Forever War where the protagonists finds society has developed into one which finds heterosexuality practically taboo is considered thesedays.
    I wonder how long before someone gets thrown out of university for showing The Life of Brian at a film night.

    For *that* scene.
  • StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 8,243
    Scott_xP said:

    NEW🚨Aaron Bell, the Conservative MP for Newcastle-under-Lyme, has submitted a letter of no confidence in Boris Johnson

    Bell was elected in 2019 and is key voice among Red Wall colleagues dismayed by PM over partygate

    His letter is with Sir Graham Brady
    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/nusrat-ghani-i-was-sacked-as-a-minister-because-i-was-a-muslim-p38lmvlvg https://twitter.com/Gabriel_Pogrund/status/1485014035582095360/photo/1

    That’s an example of a tweet that is interesting and relevant. Much improved on your usual output. Keep it up!
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 18,355
    Jonathan said:

    Roger said:

    Scott_xP said:

    NEW🚨Aaron Bell, the Conservative MP for Newcastle-under-Lyme, has submitted a letter of no confidence in Boris Johnson

    Bell was elected in 2019 and is key voice among Red Wall colleagues dismayed by PM over partygate

    His letter is with Sir Graham Brady
    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/nusrat-ghani-i-was-sacked-as-a-minister-because-i-was-a-muslim-p38lmvlvg https://twitter.com/Gabriel_Pogrund/status/1485014035582095360/photo/1

    A good bloke. A cut and a half above his sleazy colleagues
    It should stand him in good stead, and if it doesn’t, he’s better off out of it.
    He was one of the few who voted against the Paterson nonsense, but before that I hadn't noticed anything disloyal at all. That's something other MPs would respect I think. Shows a certain amount of judgement.
  • Beibheirli_CBeibheirli_C Posts: 8,163
    Cyclefree said:

    It does rather feel as if all discipline in the Tory party has broken down.

    Anyway, on a completely unrelated topic, the following article is very well worth reading - https://twitter.com/fotoole/status/1484875659222659075?s=21.

    By the every brilliant Fintan O'Toole on what happens when you make a mess of an investigation.

    Short version: you turn a disaster into a catastrophe. But do read the whole thing.

    I listened to the R4 report on it that was broadcast earlier this evening. Having listened to the Colonel who was commanding the troops on the day I am not surprised that the whole thing turned out as it did. He struck me as being completely unsuited for the task he was required to do.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 41,955
    edited January 2022
    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    Farooq said:

    Russia may be a bit dodgy in terms of it being run as a big men cartel but it is not unique in being a bit dodgy even amongst "western " countries and client states. I dont know much about ukraine politics but I doubt it is an angelic paradise. The UK should butt out and stop thinking we still police the world. It is nothing to do with us and despite what governments pump out , the world is not black and white in terms of goodies and baddies , it is a mere grey world .Wars dont free people they enslave them to governments

    This is a case of vital nation interest. Our vital national interest.

    The mistake I think you're making is in seeing strategy and legitimacy as separate. They aren't. Russia's strategic stance is to attack democracy as a concept, hence its attempts to interfere with elections in numerous countries, and its punishment of Ukraine for deciding to take a more Western path. The strategy is to show democracies as weak, divided internally and from one another, dissolute, and corrupt. This strategy must be resisted in all sphere. This means showing ourselves to be capable to politically serious, to have effective systems of government that nurture the economy and protect the life and liberty of our people, and to stand up to direct armed assaults on our territorial integrity. Western democracy is provably better than the nasty mafia-style kleptocracy Russia has, and our very existence delegitimises Putin's state-level theft. He will always be our enemy. It would be nice if he were gone, but at the bare minimum we should at least protect ourselves from him. And "us" means any Western-facing, democratically minded country.

    Ukraine is in some ways a "new" country. It was freed from the oppressive shackles of Communism in (most of) our lifetimes. It's institutions are fragile and it needs space to grow. It's imperative that we help them because when people choose freedom and are crushed for it, it hurts freedom everywhere. If we cede freedom to oppression, oppression will come to us.
    Respectfully I think that's mere fluff and nice virtuous sentences. I dont want to go to war with somebody who could destroy the world . I don't even want to risk it by posturing . I actually could not care less about who runs Ukraine (as do most people)
    If Russia invades Ukraine you will soon care very much
    How much did we care the last time they invaded, when they took Crimea, and the Donbas? Or when they took Abkazia, or Transnistra?

    The millions of displaced Ukraine citizens flooding into Europe will make everyone in Europe care
    So, are you really suggesting sending British fighting troops to fight Europe's most formidable military force? Not that we could deploy anything significant. Or perhaps bombs and cruise missiles onto Russian staging areas? Perhaps a little instant sunshine from Trident?

    Or just sanctions and arms to Ukraine?
    I believe that au courant term ‘performative’ may apply again.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,553
    "'We'll work from home forever': Civil servants vow to fight returning to offices despite Boris Johnson declaring war on the 'Whitehall blob' – as some officials even relocate out to the Cotswolds and Cornwall to WFH

    Boris Johnson is currently pushing for an end to working-from-home culture
    But some senior officials are planning to keep many staff remote permanently
    Government sources said the plan is for a 60:40 split between home and office"

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10431021/Well-work-home-forever-Civil-servants-vow-fight-returning-offices.html
  • StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 8,243
    ping said:

    Scott_xP said:

    NEW🚨Aaron Bell, the Conservative MP for Newcastle-under-Lyme, has submitted a letter of no confidence in Boris Johnson

    Bell was elected in 2019 and is key voice among Red Wall colleagues dismayed by PM over partygate

    His letter is with Sir Graham Brady
    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/nusrat-ghani-i-was-sacked-as-a-minister-because-i-was-a-muslim-p38lmvlvg https://twitter.com/Gabriel_Pogrund/status/1485014035582095360/photo/1

    Bold move from @Tissue_Price

    Fair play to him for going public. I think it’s the decent thing to do.

    However, I’m not convinced it’s a smart move. I think it’s more likely than not, Boris survives. And politically, even if he goes, I think his replacement is likely to be less favourable towards red wall seats when it comes to cutting the pie.

    Sadly, I think Aaron will live to regret sending that letter.
    He stood up about Paterson too.

    A shame that you expect so little of MPs that you don’t recognise personal integrity
  • Beibheirli_CBeibheirli_C Posts: 8,163
    edited January 2022

    Alistair said:

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    Heads-up for all PB armchair warriors:

    Starship Troopers is on Paramount Network (Freeview 32, Sky 150) at 10.50pm.

    "MI do the dying, Fleet just do the flying"
    Heinlein's writing seemed to have two modes: utter trash or inspired genuis.

    The continual references to incest did nothing to enhance it
    Yes, but Verhoevan didn't exactly stick to the book. Just made one of the most morally disturbing Sci Fi films. A real hymn to Facism and genocide.
    Its not a hymn to facism and genocide. It is a balls to the wall satire of the same.

    If you think the film is glorifying anything you are watching it wrong.

    Now the book, the book is both dull as dishwater and an absolute paen for fascism from first to last. Completely lauding the idea of "worthy" and "unworthy" citizens.

    Thr film however is taking the god damn piss.
    If you think the book is a paean for fascism then you need to go back to school and try again.
    Given the stories on Twitter tonight, perhaps we should be topical and move from fascism to racism.

    Blazing Saddles anyone? ;)
    Not seen the stories as I don't do twitter. What is the latest storm about?
    BBC News is covering it too - the Conservative MP who claims she was demoted because she was muslim. The Chief Whip has allegedly been posting and then deleting tweets about it. It is almost like the blue touchpaper has been lit.

    Edit: I cannot find it on the BBC website even though it was reported on the 9pm bulletin on R4. Sky have a story on it

    https://news.sky.com/story/chief-whip-denies-claims-he-told-mp-she-was-sacked-as-a-minister-because-of-her-muslim-faith-12523176
  • Cyclefree said:

    It does rather feel as if all discipline in the Tory party has broken down.

    Anyway, on a completely unrelated topic, the following article is very well worth reading - https://twitter.com/fotoole/status/1484875659222659075?s=21.

    By the every brilliant Fintan O'Toole on what happens when you make a mess of an investigation.

    Short version: you turn a disaster into a catastrophe. But do read the whole thing.

    I listened to the R4 report on it that was broadcast earlier this evening. Having listened to the Colonel who was commanding the troops on the day I am not surprised that the whole thing turned out as it did. He struck me as being completely unsuited for the task he was required to do.
    Yep, listened to a bit of it while making dinner. He was too stupid to realise that even if you are unrepentant about 'killing' 14 civilians you should at least try to conceal it as much as possible.
  • Beibheirli_CBeibheirli_C Posts: 8,163

    Cyclefree said:

    It does rather feel as if all discipline in the Tory party has broken down.

    Anyway, on a completely unrelated topic, the following article is very well worth reading - https://twitter.com/fotoole/status/1484875659222659075?s=21.

    By the every brilliant Fintan O'Toole on what happens when you make a mess of an investigation.

    Short version: you turn a disaster into a catastrophe. But do read the whole thing.

    I listened to the R4 report on it that was broadcast earlier this evening. Having listened to the Colonel who was commanding the troops on the day I am not surprised that the whole thing turned out as it did. He struck me as being completely unsuited for the task he was required to do.
    Yep, listened to a bit of it while making dinner. He was too stupid to realise that even if you are unrepentant about 'killing' 14 civilians you should at least try to conceal it as much as possible.
    What set me off was the comment that (paraphrasing) going on a Demo was signing your own death warrant and you deserved to shot! I mean,.... WTAF!!!!!!
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,249
    Andy_JS said:

    "'We'll work from home forever': Civil servants vow to fight returning to offices despite Boris Johnson declaring war on the 'Whitehall blob' – as some officials even relocate out to the Cotswolds and Cornwall to WFH

    Boris Johnson is currently pushing for an end to working-from-home culture
    But some senior officials are planning to keep many staff remote permanently
    Government sources said the plan is for a 60:40 split between home and office"

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10431021/Well-work-home-forever-Civil-servants-vow-fight-returning-offices.html

    And then someone realises that since they are not living or working in London, London Weighting shouldn't be applied.
  • Beibheirli_CBeibheirli_C Posts: 8,163

    Alistair said:

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    Heads-up for all PB armchair warriors:

    Starship Troopers is on Paramount Network (Freeview 32, Sky 150) at 10.50pm.

    "MI do the dying, Fleet just do the flying"
    Heinlein's writing seemed to have two modes: utter trash or inspired genuis.

    The continual references to incest did nothing to enhance it
    Yes, but Verhoevan didn't exactly stick to the book. Just made one of the most morally disturbing Sci Fi films. A real hymn to Facism and genocide.
    Its not a hymn to facism and genocide. It is a balls to the wall satire of the same.

    If you think the film is glorifying anything you are watching it wrong.

    Now the book, the book is both dull as dishwater and an absolute paen for fascism from first to last. Completely lauding the idea of "worthy" and "unworthy" citizens.

    Thr film however is taking the god damn piss.
    If you think the book is a paean for fascism then you need to go back to school and try again.
    Given the stories on Twitter tonight, perhaps we should be topical and move from fascism to racism.

    Blazing Saddles anyone? ;)
    The Three Amigos was on Film4 earlier today :lol:
    I have not seen that one. Is it any good?
  • Northern_AlNorthern_Al Posts: 8,375
    kle4 said:

    MattW said:

    Just a reminder that Nus Ghani was sacked for being a Muslim the same time the Muslim Sajid Javid was ousted as Chancellor.

    Hmmm....

    Was that not thought to be Mr Cummings doing?
    Well that was the spin....
    I'm doubtful about this. Boris may be many things but not dumb-ass racist. He's a one-man melting pot.
    I am SHOCKED a Prime Minister who compared Muslim women wearing the burqa to “letterboxes” and “bank robbers” would appoint Islamophobes to his government.
    Don't forget the piccaninnies!
    Heavily overegged.

    "Picaninnies" was a good satire of Tony Blair's imperial progress to avoid the UK where he was unpopular.

    Letterboxes and bank robbers were exactly the same sentiments as previous comments by the likes of Harriet Harman, expressed in journalese rather than politico.
    The "letterboxes" and "bankrobbers" speech was not satire it was a carefully crafted dog whistle. Besides which it is humourless.

    And picanninies and the offensive stereotypical observation? Who uses such old colonialist terms, other than an old colonialist?
    The thing about his old comments is it is the same old ones each time, from an increasingly long time ago, so however wrong it might be if not backed up by more recent events and actions, it loses teeth as an effective attack, since it is not as though the Cabinet is undiverse. The Ghani allegation is doubly serious both for itself, and for making quite older stuff suddenly seem more part of a patten.
    The 'letterboxes and bankrobbers' article, taking the piss out of (some) Muslim women while ironically defending their right to wear what they like, was in August 2018. Not very long ago. Just after he'd resigned as Foreign Secretary, and just over a year before he became PM.
  • Alistair said:

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    Heads-up for all PB armchair warriors:

    Starship Troopers is on Paramount Network (Freeview 32, Sky 150) at 10.50pm.

    "MI do the dying, Fleet just do the flying"
    Heinlein's writing seemed to have two modes: utter trash or inspired genuis.

    The continual references to incest did nothing to enhance it
    Yes, but Verhoevan didn't exactly stick to the book. Just made one of the most morally disturbing Sci Fi films. A real hymn to Facism and genocide.
    Its not a hymn to facism and genocide. It is a balls to the wall satire of the same.

    If you think the film is glorifying anything you are watching it wrong.

    Now the book, the book is both dull as dishwater and an absolute paen for fascism from first to last. Completely lauding the idea of "worthy" and "unworthy" citizens.

    Thr film however is taking the god damn piss.
    If you think the book is a paean for fascism then you need to go back to school and try again.
    Given the stories on Twitter tonight, perhaps we should be topical and move from fascism to racism.

    Blazing Saddles anyone? ;)
    The Three Amigos was on Film4 earlier today :lol:
    I have not seen that one. Is it any good?
    A guilty pleasure, I suppose :)
  • pingping Posts: 3,805
    edited January 2022

    ping said:

    Scott_xP said:

    NEW🚨Aaron Bell, the Conservative MP for Newcastle-under-Lyme, has submitted a letter of no confidence in Boris Johnson

    Bell was elected in 2019 and is key voice among Red Wall colleagues dismayed by PM over partygate

    His letter is with Sir Graham Brady
    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/nusrat-ghani-i-was-sacked-as-a-minister-because-i-was-a-muslim-p38lmvlvg https://twitter.com/Gabriel_Pogrund/status/1485014035582095360/photo/1

    Bold move from @Tissue_Price

    Fair play to him for going public. I think it’s the decent thing to do.

    However, I’m not convinced it’s a smart move. I think it’s more likely than not, Boris survives. And politically, even if he goes, I think his replacement is likely to be less favourable towards red wall seats when it comes to cutting the pie.

    Sadly, I think Aaron will live to regret sending that letter.
    He stood up about Paterson too.

    A shame that you expect so little of MPs that you don’t recognise personal integrity
    Voters want pork. An MP with personal integrity is a nice-to-have, but when it comes to elections, they vote for pork.

    Nobody will be thinking of Paterson come the next election. Partygate will be a distant memory. I stand by my analysis - it’s fundamentally not in the interests of Tory red wall MP’s to oust Boris.

    I think Aaron has got this wrong.
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 21,298
    I don’t think Boris is “racist”.

    We’re all fodder for his joking larceny, whatever colour we are.

    As for Mark Spencer, he’s another who won’t be asked to stick around come the BoJo ouster. He couldn’t whip a walnut.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 81,991
    edited January 2022

    kle4 said:

    MattW said:

    Just a reminder that Nus Ghani was sacked for being a Muslim the same time the Muslim Sajid Javid was ousted as Chancellor.

    Hmmm....

    Was that not thought to be Mr Cummings doing?
    Well that was the spin....
    I'm doubtful about this. Boris may be many things but not dumb-ass racist. He's a one-man melting pot.
    I am SHOCKED a Prime Minister who compared Muslim women wearing the burqa to “letterboxes” and “bank robbers” would appoint Islamophobes to his government.
    Don't forget the piccaninnies!
    Heavily overegged.

    "Picaninnies" was a good satire of Tony Blair's imperial progress to avoid the UK where he was unpopular.

    Letterboxes and bank robbers were exactly the same sentiments as previous comments by the likes of Harriet Harman, expressed in journalese rather than politico.
    The "letterboxes" and "bankrobbers" speech was not satire it was a carefully crafted dog whistle. Besides which it is humourless.

    And picanninies and the offensive stereotypical observation? Who uses such old colonialist terms, other than an old colonialist?
    The thing about his old comments is it is the same old ones each time, from an increasingly long time ago, so however wrong it might be if not backed up by more recent events and actions, it loses teeth as an effective attack, since it is not as though the Cabinet is undiverse. The Ghani allegation is doubly serious both for itself, and for making quite older stuff suddenly seem more part of a patten.
    The 'letterboxes and bankrobbers' article, taking the piss out of (some) Muslim women while ironically defending their right to wear what they like, was in August 2018. Not very long ago. Just after he'd resigned as Foreign Secretary, and just over a year before he became PM.
    Ironically he plagiarised 'letterboxes and bankrobbers' from a Comment is Free article on the Guardian website.
  • Farooq said:

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    Farooq said:

    Russia may be a bit dodgy in terms of it being run as a big men cartel but it is not unique in being a bit dodgy even amongst "western " countries and client states. I dont know much about ukraine politics but I doubt it is an angelic paradise. The UK should butt out and stop thinking we still police the world. It is nothing to do with us and despite what governments pump out , the world is not black and white in terms of goodies and baddies , it is a mere grey world .Wars dont free people they enslave them to governments

    This is a case of vital nation interest. Our vital national interest.

    The mistake I think you're making is in seeing strategy and legitimacy as separate. They aren't. Russia's strategic stance is to attack democracy as a concept, hence its attempts to interfere with elections in numerous countries, and its punishment of Ukraine for deciding to take a more Western path. The strategy is to show democracies as weak, divided internally and from one another, dissolute, and corrupt. This strategy must be resisted in all sphere. This means showing ourselves to be capable to politically serious, to have effective systems of government that nurture the economy and protect the life and liberty of our people, and to stand up to direct armed assaults on our territorial integrity. Western democracy is provably better than the nasty mafia-style kleptocracy Russia has, and our very existence delegitimises Putin's state-level theft. He will always be our enemy. It would be nice if he were gone, but at the bare minimum we should at least protect ourselves from him. And "us" means any Western-facing, democratically minded country.

    Ukraine is in some ways a "new" country. It was freed from the oppressive shackles of Communism in (most of) our lifetimes. It's institutions are fragile and it needs space to grow. It's imperative that we help them because when people choose freedom and are crushed for it, it hurts freedom everywhere. If we cede freedom to oppression, oppression will come to us.
    Respectfully I think that's mere fluff and nice virtuous sentences. I dont want to go to war with somebody who could destroy the world . I don't even want to risk it by posturing . I actually could not care less about who runs Ukraine (as do most people)
    If Russia invades Ukraine you will soon care very much
    How much did we care the last time they invaded, when they took Crimea, and the Donbas? Or when they took Abkazia, or Transnistra?

    The millions of displaced Ukraine citizens flooding into Europe will make everyone in Europe care
    So, are you really suggesting sending British fighting troops to fight Europe's most formidable military force? Not that we could deploy anything significant. Or perhaps bombs and cruise missiles onto Russian staging areas? Perhaps a little instant sunshine from Trident?

    Or just sanctions and arms to Ukraine?
    I believe that au courant term ‘performative’ may apply again.
    Periodically, "performative" is a performative "performative". A performative "performative" is when the poster's putative "performative" is not performative and instead they are performatively putting a possible process into the "performative" pigeonhole.
    And then we come to the unknowns of a possible process v. the very much known performative track record of those who may be constructing the possible process.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,368

    Farooq said:

    Farooq said:

    Is it shocking? We know about Boris Johnson's comments on Muslims, and he has Zac Goldsmith, who ran an Islamophobic mayoral campaign, in his cabinet. You knew this about Boris before the election. We all did.
    Labour was led by Corbyn and the lib dems tried to subvert Brexit, so of course the conservatives won a near landslide

    Maybe labour and the lib dems need to look at themselves over GE19
    Yeah, I guess when it comes down to it I was more comfortable with being offered a second referendum on Brexit than I was with hating Jews and Muslims.

    Fine if you want to make a moral equivalence between more democracy and more racism, but I don't. Not today and not ever.

    There's a big ol' gulf between policies you don't like and racism. I hope you can quietly recognise that.
    I absolutely hate racism
    According to Boris Johnson, racism is fine if can be framed as satire.
  • Northern_AlNorthern_Al Posts: 8,375

    kle4 said:

    MattW said:

    Just a reminder that Nus Ghani was sacked for being a Muslim the same time the Muslim Sajid Javid was ousted as Chancellor.

    Hmmm....

    Was that not thought to be Mr Cummings doing?
    Well that was the spin....
    I'm doubtful about this. Boris may be many things but not dumb-ass racist. He's a one-man melting pot.
    I am SHOCKED a Prime Minister who compared Muslim women wearing the burqa to “letterboxes” and “bank robbers” would appoint Islamophobes to his government.
    Don't forget the piccaninnies!
    Heavily overegged.

    "Picaninnies" was a good satire of Tony Blair's imperial progress to avoid the UK where he was unpopular.

    Letterboxes and bank robbers were exactly the same sentiments as previous comments by the likes of Harriet Harman, expressed in journalese rather than politico.
    The "letterboxes" and "bankrobbers" speech was not satire it was a carefully crafted dog whistle. Besides which it is humourless.

    And picanninies and the offensive stereotypical observation? Who uses such old colonialist terms, other than an old colonialist?
    The thing about his old comments is it is the same old ones each time, from an increasingly long time ago, so however wrong it might be if not backed up by more recent events and actions, it loses teeth as an effective attack, since it is not as though the Cabinet is undiverse. The Ghani allegation is doubly serious both for itself, and for making quite older stuff suddenly seem more part of a patten.
    The 'letterboxes and bankrobbers' article, taking the piss out of (some) Muslim women while ironically defending their right to wear what they like, was in August 2018. Not very long ago. Just after he'd resigned as Foreign Secretary, and just over a year before he became PM.
    Ironically he plagiarised 'letterboxes and bankrobbers' from a Comment is Free article on the Guardian website.
    Link please?
  • Andy_JS said:

    "'We'll work from home forever': Civil servants vow to fight returning to offices despite Boris Johnson declaring war on the 'Whitehall blob' – as some officials even relocate out to the Cotswolds and Cornwall to WFH

    Boris Johnson is currently pushing for an end to working-from-home culture
    But some senior officials are planning to keep many staff remote permanently
    Government sources said the plan is for a 60:40 split between home and office"

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10431021/Well-work-home-forever-Civil-servants-vow-fight-returning-offices.html

    And then someone realises that since they are not living or working in London, London Weighting shouldn't be applied.
    Good luck with trying to get the civil service to agree to that....
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 41,955
    edited January 2022

    Cyclefree said:

    It does rather feel as if all discipline in the Tory party has broken down.

    Anyway, on a completely unrelated topic, the following article is very well worth reading - https://twitter.com/fotoole/status/1484875659222659075?s=21.

    By the every brilliant Fintan O'Toole on what happens when you make a mess of an investigation.

    Short version: you turn a disaster into a catastrophe. But do read the whole thing.

    I listened to the R4 report on it that was broadcast earlier this evening. Having listened to the Colonel who was commanding the troops on the day I am not surprised that the whole thing turned out as it did. He struck me as being completely unsuited for the task he was required to do.
    Yep, listened to a bit of it while making dinner. He was too stupid to realise that even if you are unrepentant about 'killing' 14 civilians you should at least try to conceal it as much as possible.
    What set me off was the comment that (paraphrasing) going on a Demo was signing your own death warrant and you deserved to shot! I mean,.... WTAF!!!!!!
    There was a real sense that those scruffy louts that had been throwing stones and hurling abuse at ar lads were going to get a damn good seeing to and they would bloody deserve it.
  • So the Boris show has been accused of lies, hypocrisy, corruption and now racism. Very largely from his own benches.

    I’ll hear the champagne corks popping all the way here in Manhattan when the crooked sea-lion finally barks his last.

    I assume you do not mean that literally
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 11,051
    Andy_JS said:

    "'We'll work from home forever': Civil servants vow to fight returning to offices despite Boris Johnson declaring war on the 'Whitehall blob' – as some officials even relocate out to the Cotswolds and Cornwall to WFH

    Boris Johnson is currently pushing for an end to working-from-home culture
    But some senior officials are planning to keep many staff remote permanently
    Government sources said the plan is for a 60:40 split between home and office"

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10431021/Well-work-home-forever-Civil-servants-vow-fight-returning-offices.html

    Before the pandemic, the Government wanted to move civil servants out of London. Now they don't.

    But then before the pandemic, the Government wanted GPs to use more virtual consultations. Now they don't.

    Society has been changed by the pandemic. Maybe some of those changes have positives. Why these kneejerk reactions?
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,310

    Cyclefree said:

    It does rather feel as if all discipline in the Tory party has broken down.

    Anyway, on a completely unrelated topic, the following article is very well worth reading - https://twitter.com/fotoole/status/1484875659222659075?s=21.

    By the every brilliant Fintan O'Toole on what happens when you make a mess of an investigation.

    Short version: you turn a disaster into a catastrophe. But do read the whole thing.

    I listened to the R4 report on it that was broadcast earlier this evening. Having listened to the Colonel who was commanding the troops on the day I am not surprised that the whole thing turned out as it did. He struck me as being completely unsuited for the task he was required to do.
    Yep, listened to a bit of it while making dinner. He was too stupid to realise that even if you are unrepentant about 'killing' 14 civilians you should at least try to conceal it as much as possible.
    What set me off was the comment that (paraphrasing) going on a Demo was signing your own death warrant and you deserved to shot! I mean,.... WTAF!!!!!!
    Given what happened at Ballymurphy shortly beforehand that was probably the view of a significant section of the British Army at the time and a number of NI politicians.

    Might I modestly repost this - https://www2.politicalbetting.com/index.php/archives/2021/05/13/no-more-to-be-said/ - on this topic, specifically on the murder of civilians at Ballymurphy by the same regiment of Paras 5 months before Bloody Sunday and how long it took them to get any form of justice or apology. As O'Toole says, they got away with it then so little wonder they thought they could get away with it in Derry.
  • Andy_JS said:

    "'We'll work from home forever': Civil servants vow to fight returning to offices despite Boris Johnson declaring war on the 'Whitehall blob' – as some officials even relocate out to the Cotswolds and Cornwall to WFH

    Boris Johnson is currently pushing for an end to working-from-home culture
    But some senior officials are planning to keep many staff remote permanently
    Government sources said the plan is for a 60:40 split between home and office"

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10431021/Well-work-home-forever-Civil-servants-vow-fight-returning-offices.html

    And then someone realises that since they are not living or working in London, London Weighting shouldn't be applied.
    Good luck with trying to get the civil service to agree to that....
    I think as soon as they find out how much their home energy bill will be they will have a change of heart
  • So the Boris show has been accused of lies, hypocrisy, corruption and now racism. Very largely from his own benches.

    I’ll hear the champagne corks popping all the way here in Manhattan when the crooked sea-lion finally barks his last.

    I assume you do not mean that literally
    I believe Gardenwalker's hearing is preternaturally good, but aye, probably not literally.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,175

    Andy_JS said:

    "'We'll work from home forever': Civil servants vow to fight returning to offices despite Boris Johnson declaring war on the 'Whitehall blob' – as some officials even relocate out to the Cotswolds and Cornwall to WFH

    Boris Johnson is currently pushing for an end to working-from-home culture
    But some senior officials are planning to keep many staff remote permanently
    Government sources said the plan is for a 60:40 split between home and office"

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10431021/Well-work-home-forever-Civil-servants-vow-fight-returning-offices.html

    And then someone realises that since they are not living or working in London, London Weighting shouldn't be applied.
    Good luck with trying to get the civil service to agree to that....
    I think as soon as they find out how much their home energy bill will be they will have a change of heart
    Lol, nothing compared with commuting costs.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,249

    Andy_JS said:

    "'We'll work from home forever': Civil servants vow to fight returning to offices despite Boris Johnson declaring war on the 'Whitehall blob' – as some officials even relocate out to the Cotswolds and Cornwall to WFH

    Boris Johnson is currently pushing for an end to working-from-home culture
    But some senior officials are planning to keep many staff remote permanently
    Government sources said the plan is for a 60:40 split between home and office"

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10431021/Well-work-home-forever-Civil-servants-vow-fight-returning-offices.html

    And then someone realises that since they are not living or working in London, London Weighting shouldn't be applied.
    Good luck with trying to get the civil service to agree to that....
    That sound is the sound of future chancellor giggling.....

    "Well, why is it unfair? You don't work in London, you don't live in London. You visit London less often than a Texan does."
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,188
    tlg86 said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "'We'll work from home forever': Civil servants vow to fight returning to offices despite Boris Johnson declaring war on the 'Whitehall blob' – as some officials even relocate out to the Cotswolds and Cornwall to WFH

    Boris Johnson is currently pushing for an end to working-from-home culture
    But some senior officials are planning to keep many staff remote permanently
    Government sources said the plan is for a 60:40 split between home and office"

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10431021/Well-work-home-forever-Civil-servants-vow-fight-returning-offices.html

    And then someone realises that since they are not living or working in London, London Weighting shouldn't be applied.
    Good luck with trying to get the civil service to agree to that....
    I think as soon as they find out how much their home energy bill will be they will have a change of heart
    Lol, nothing compared with commuting costs.
    Ye homeworking is a net saving.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,249

    Farooq said:

    Farooq said:

    Is it shocking? We know about Boris Johnson's comments on Muslims, and he has Zac Goldsmith, who ran an Islamophobic mayoral campaign, in his cabinet. You knew this about Boris before the election. We all did.
    Labour was led by Corbyn and the lib dems tried to subvert Brexit, so of course the conservatives won a near landslide

    Maybe labour and the lib dems need to look at themselves over GE19
    Yeah, I guess when it comes down to it I was more comfortable with being offered a second referendum on Brexit than I was with hating Jews and Muslims.

    Fine if you want to make a moral equivalence between more democracy and more racism, but I don't. Not today and not ever.

    There's a big ol' gulf between policies you don't like and racism. I hope you can quietly recognise that.
    I absolutely hate racism
    According to Boris Johnson, racism is fine if can be framed as satire.
    So he shares that with Verhoeven, then.
  • Anyway nothing much about partygate in tomorrow's papers

    Time to switch of the light

    Good night folks

    Big week next week
  • Cyclefree said:

    Cyclefree said:

    It does rather feel as if all discipline in the Tory party has broken down.

    Anyway, on a completely unrelated topic, the following article is very well worth reading - https://twitter.com/fotoole/status/1484875659222659075?s=21.

    By the every brilliant Fintan O'Toole on what happens when you make a mess of an investigation.

    Short version: you turn a disaster into a catastrophe. But do read the whole thing.

    I listened to the R4 report on it that was broadcast earlier this evening. Having listened to the Colonel who was commanding the troops on the day I am not surprised that the whole thing turned out as it did. He struck me as being completely unsuited for the task he was required to do.
    Yep, listened to a bit of it while making dinner. He was too stupid to realise that even if you are unrepentant about 'killing' 14 civilians you should at least try to conceal it as much as possible.
    What set me off was the comment that (paraphrasing) going on a Demo was signing your own death warrant and you deserved to shot! I mean,.... WTAF!!!!!!
    Given what happened at Ballymurphy shortly beforehand that was probably the view of a significant section of the British Army at the time and a number of NI politicians.

    Might I modestly repost this - https://www2.politicalbetting.com/index.php/archives/2021/05/13/no-more-to-be-said/ - on this topic, specifically on the murder of civilians at Ballymurphy by the same regiment of Paras 5 months before Bloody Sunday and how long it took them to get any form of justice or apology. As O'Toole says, they got away with it then so little wonder they thought they could get away with it in Derry.
    is 'getting away with it' the British disease (along with all the other ones)?
  • Farooq said:

    Farooq said:

    Is it shocking? We know about Boris Johnson's comments on Muslims, and he has Zac Goldsmith, who ran an Islamophobic mayoral campaign, in his cabinet. You knew this about Boris before the election. We all did.
    Labour was led by Corbyn and the lib dems tried to subvert Brexit, so of course the conservatives won a near landslide

    Maybe labour and the lib dems need to look at themselves over GE19
    Yeah, I guess when it comes down to it I was more comfortable with being offered a second referendum on Brexit than I was with hating Jews and Muslims.

    Fine if you want to make a moral equivalence between more democracy and more racism, but I don't. Not today and not ever.

    There's a big ol' gulf between policies you don't like and racism. I hope you can quietly recognise that.
    I absolutely hate racism
    According to Boris Johnson, racism is fine if can be framed as satire.
    So he shares that with Verhoeven, then.
    "The only good bug is a dead bug!"
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,175
    Pulpstar said:

    tlg86 said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "'We'll work from home forever': Civil servants vow to fight returning to offices despite Boris Johnson declaring war on the 'Whitehall blob' – as some officials even relocate out to the Cotswolds and Cornwall to WFH

    Boris Johnson is currently pushing for an end to working-from-home culture
    But some senior officials are planning to keep many staff remote permanently
    Government sources said the plan is for a 60:40 split between home and office"

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10431021/Well-work-home-forever-Civil-servants-vow-fight-returning-offices.html

    And then someone realises that since they are not living or working in London, London Weighting shouldn't be applied.
    Good luck with trying to get the civil service to agree to that....
    I think as soon as they find out how much their home energy bill will be they will have a change of heart
    Lol, nothing compared with commuting costs.
    Ye homeworking is a net saving.
    Especially when you’re paying for your parents to have the heating on at home anyway.
  • Beibheirli_CBeibheirli_C Posts: 8,163
    Cyclefree said:

    Cyclefree said:

    It does rather feel as if all discipline in the Tory party has broken down.

    Anyway, on a completely unrelated topic, the following article is very well worth reading - https://twitter.com/fotoole/status/1484875659222659075?s=21.

    By the every brilliant Fintan O'Toole on what happens when you make a mess of an investigation.

    Short version: you turn a disaster into a catastrophe. But do read the whole thing.

    I listened to the R4 report on it that was broadcast earlier this evening. Having listened to the Colonel who was commanding the troops on the day I am not surprised that the whole thing turned out as it did. He struck me as being completely unsuited for the task he was required to do.
    Yep, listened to a bit of it while making dinner. He was too stupid to realise that even if you are unrepentant about 'killing' 14 civilians you should at least try to conceal it as much as possible.
    What set me off was the comment that (paraphrasing) going on a Demo was signing your own death warrant and you deserved to shot! I mean,.... WTAF!!!!!!
    Given what happened at Ballymurphy shortly beforehand that was probably the view of a significant section of the British Army at the time and a number of NI politicians.

    Might I modestly repost this - https://www2.politicalbetting.com/index.php/archives/2021/05/13/no-more-to-be-said/ - on this topic, specifically on the murder of civilians at Ballymurphy by the same regiment of Paras 5 months before Bloody Sunday and how long it took them to get any form of justice or apology. As O'Toole says, they got away with it then so little wonder they thought they could get away with it in Derry.
    I wonder if the same Colonel was in charge?

    Your opening sentences sum up the whole problem. I think NI needs to realise that it is time to hold that Border Poll and if that time ever comes I hope that reunification happens
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,401
    London weighting wants binning if Gove is short of levelling up ideas.
    Do a job? Get paid the rate.
    Choose to do it somewhere twice as expensive?
    More fool you.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,918
    dixiedean said:

    London weighting wants binning if Gove is short of levelling up ideas.
    Do a job? Get paid the rate.
    Choose to do it somewhere twice as expensive?
    More fool you.

    Absurd, the private sector pays more in London as cost of living is higher, so should the public sector
  • Farooq said:

    So the Boris show has been accused of lies, hypocrisy, corruption and now racism. Very largely from his own benches.

    I’ll hear the champagne corks popping all the way here in Manhattan when the crooked sea-lion finally barks his last.

    I assume you do not mean that literally
    I believe Gardenwalker's hearing is preternaturally good, but aye, probably not literally.
    I'm still trying to work out whether Boris Johnson is literally a sea-lion.
    From piccaninny to pinniped?
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,918
    edited January 2022

    Cyclefree said:

    Cyclefree said:

    It does rather feel as if all discipline in the Tory party has broken down.

    Anyway, on a completely unrelated topic, the following article is very well worth reading - https://twitter.com/fotoole/status/1484875659222659075?s=21.

    By the every brilliant Fintan O'Toole on what happens when you make a mess of an investigation.

    Short version: you turn a disaster into a catastrophe. But do read the whole thing.

    I listened to the R4 report on it that was broadcast earlier this evening. Having listened to the Colonel who was commanding the troops on the day I am not surprised that the whole thing turned out as it did. He struck me as being completely unsuited for the task he was required to do.
    Yep, listened to a bit of it while making dinner. He was too stupid to realise that even if you are unrepentant about 'killing' 14 civilians you should at least try to conceal it as much as possible.
    What set me off was the comment that (paraphrasing) going on a Demo was signing your own death warrant and you deserved to shot! I mean,.... WTAF!!!!!!
    Given what happened at Ballymurphy shortly beforehand that was probably the view of a significant section of the British Army at the time and a number of NI politicians.

    Might I modestly repost this - https://www2.politicalbetting.com/index.php/archives/2021/05/13/no-more-to-be-said/ - on this topic, specifically on the murder of civilians at Ballymurphy by the same regiment of Paras 5 months before Bloody Sunday and how long it took them to get any form of justice or apology. As O'Toole says, they got away with it then so little wonder they thought they could get away with it in Derry.
    I wonder if the same Colonel was in charge?

    Your opening sentences sum up the whole problem. I think NI needs to realise that it is time to hold that Border Poll and if that time ever comes I hope that reunification happens
    Absolutely not.

    Unionist Parties still win more votes than Nationalist Parties in NI. It is the Irish Sea border that needs removing not a border poll given to appease Sinn Fein which until recently was the political wing of the IRA!
  • HYUFD said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Cyclefree said:

    It does rather feel as if all discipline in the Tory party has broken down.

    Anyway, on a completely unrelated topic, the following article is very well worth reading - https://twitter.com/fotoole/status/1484875659222659075?s=21.

    By the every brilliant Fintan O'Toole on what happens when you make a mess of an investigation.

    Short version: you turn a disaster into a catastrophe. But do read the whole thing.

    I listened to the R4 report on it that was broadcast earlier this evening. Having listened to the Colonel who was commanding the troops on the day I am not surprised that the whole thing turned out as it did. He struck me as being completely unsuited for the task he was required to do.
    Yep, listened to a bit of it while making dinner. He was too stupid to realise that even if you are unrepentant about 'killing' 14 civilians you should at least try to conceal it as much as possible.
    What set me off was the comment that (paraphrasing) going on a Demo was signing your own death warrant and you deserved to shot! I mean,.... WTAF!!!!!!
    Given what happened at Ballymurphy shortly beforehand that was probably the view of a significant section of the British Army at the time and a number of NI politicians.

    Might I modestly repost this - https://www2.politicalbetting.com/index.php/archives/2021/05/13/no-more-to-be-said/ - on this topic, specifically on the murder of civilians at Ballymurphy by the same regiment of Paras 5 months before Bloody Sunday and how long it took them to get any form of justice or apology. As O'Toole says, they got away with it then so little wonder they thought they could get away with it in Derry.
    I wonder if the same Colonel was in charge?

    Your opening sentences sum up the whole problem. I think NI needs to realise that it is time to hold that Border Poll and if that time ever comes I hope that reunification happens
    Absolutely not.

    Unionist Parties still win more votes than Nationalist Parties. It is the Irish Sea border that needs removing not a border poll given to appease Sinn Fein!
    Nationalists won more MPs than Unionists in 2019.
  • Farooq said:

    So the Boris show has been accused of lies, hypocrisy, corruption and now racism. Very largely from his own benches.

    I’ll hear the champagne corks popping all the way here in Manhattan when the crooked sea-lion finally barks his last.

    I assume you do not mean that literally
    I believe Gardenwalker's hearing is preternaturally good, but aye, probably not literally.
    I'm still trying to work out whether Boris Johnson is literally a sea-lion.
    Well..


  • pingping Posts: 3,805
    edited January 2022
    HYUFD said:

    dixiedean said:

    London weighting wants binning if Gove is short of levelling up ideas.
    Do a job? Get paid the rate.
    Choose to do it somewhere twice as expensive?
    More fool you.

    Absurd, the private sector pays more in London as cost of living is higher, so should the public sector
    Lol.

    Frame this discussion! A leftie arguing for lower public sector remuneration, a rightie arguing to keep it higher. We’ve reached the end of ideology.
  • ClippPClippP Posts: 1,904

    Jonathan said:

    Roger said:

    Scott_xP said:

    NEW🚨Aaron Bell, the Conservative MP for Newcastle-under-Lyme, has submitted a letter of no confidence in Boris Johnson

    Bell was elected in 2019 and is key voice among Red Wall colleagues dismayed by PM over partygate

    His letter is with Sir Graham Brady
    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/nusrat-ghani-i-was-sacked-as-a-minister-because-i-was-a-muslim-p38lmvlvg https://twitter.com/Gabriel_Pogrund/status/1485014035582095360/photo/1

    A good bloke. A cut and a half above his sleazy colleagues
    It should stand him in good stead, and if it doesn’t, he’s better off out of it.
    He was one of the few who voted against the Paterson nonsense, but before that I hadn't noticed anything disloyal at all. That's something other MPs would respect I think. Shows a certain amount of judgement.
    I think it puts him in the front line of the decent Tory MPs. If the Conservative Party ever does return to its senses and some kind of respectability, our Aaron will be among its leaders. He has put down his marker.

    On the same note, so has William Wragg. I still think he is destined to lose Hazel Grove at the next election, but his recent stand has made it just that little bit more difficult for the Lib Dem challenger, Lisa Smart, who is the latest Lib Dem PPC to be put in place.
  • HYUFD said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Cyclefree said:

    It does rather feel as if all discipline in the Tory party has broken down.

    Anyway, on a completely unrelated topic, the following article is very well worth reading - https://twitter.com/fotoole/status/1484875659222659075?s=21.

    By the every brilliant Fintan O'Toole on what happens when you make a mess of an investigation.

    Short version: you turn a disaster into a catastrophe. But do read the whole thing.

    I listened to the R4 report on it that was broadcast earlier this evening. Having listened to the Colonel who was commanding the troops on the day I am not surprised that the whole thing turned out as it did. He struck me as being completely unsuited for the task he was required to do.
    Yep, listened to a bit of it while making dinner. He was too stupid to realise that even if you are unrepentant about 'killing' 14 civilians you should at least try to conceal it as much as possible.
    What set me off was the comment that (paraphrasing) going on a Demo was signing your own death warrant and you deserved to shot! I mean,.... WTAF!!!!!!
    Given what happened at Ballymurphy shortly beforehand that was probably the view of a significant section of the British Army at the time and a number of NI politicians.

    Might I modestly repost this - https://www2.politicalbetting.com/index.php/archives/2021/05/13/no-more-to-be-said/ - on this topic, specifically on the murder of civilians at Ballymurphy by the same regiment of Paras 5 months before Bloody Sunday and how long it took them to get any form of justice or apology. As O'Toole says, they got away with it then so little wonder they thought they could get away with it in Derry.
    I wonder if the same Colonel was in charge?

    Your opening sentences sum up the whole problem. I think NI needs to realise that it is time to hold that Border Poll and if that time ever comes I hope that reunification happens
    Absolutely not.

    Unionist Parties still win more votes than Nationalist Parties in NI. It is the Irish Sea border that needs removing not a border poll given to appease Sinn Fein which until recently was the political wing of the IRA!
    Given your NI expertise, which party would you say was closest to being the political wing of the Shankhill Butchers?
  • RogerRoger Posts: 19,908
    edited January 2022
    I've finally tracked down the interestingy named 'Mark Spencer' Not an easy name to find! He's the person who was filmed marching along Downing St shouting 'HE'S A HERO!'. He seemed very angry that the news pack didn't recognise that description

    I can easily believe he's the bully referred to.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,070
    Foxy said:

    Nigelb said:

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    Heads-up for all PB armchair warriors:

    Starship Troopers is on Paramount Network (Freeview 32, Sky 150) at 10.50pm.

    "MI do the dying, Fleet just do the flying"
    Heinlein's writing seemed to have two modes: utter trash or inspired genuis.

    The continual references to incest did nothing to enhance it
    Yes, but Verhoevan didn't exactly stick to the book. Just made one of the most morally disturbing Sci Fi films. A real hymn to Facism and genocide.
    Hymn, or extended piss take ?
    The thing is with Verhoevan, it is always hard to be sure, just look at his other films. Both Black Book and Soldier of Orange are quite morally ambiguous, and is Robocop satirical?
    Deeply.
This discussion has been closed.