Not sure these proposals are all that radical. As a Wiganer I distinctly remember being subject to random stop and search on suspicion of intention to attend a protest based purely on my starting location. Then we were told which parts of the country we could and couldn't travel to. But that was during the Strike and we weren't middle class. I don't remember a great deal of libertarian outrage at the time.
Not sure how proletarian one had to be. I remember one of the better political reminiscences on PB - alas I forget the name; about being a drinks company representative at that time, being stopped and encouraged to donate the contents of his boot to refresh the plod.
No. Alas. Basically. Where you from? (And numberplates were a pretty big tell in those days). Turn around. You aren't free to travel around the country. Regardless of your intentions. Quite stunning it has been erased from the collective memory. Was just a tad more intrusive than having to wear a mask in Asda. And cheered to the rafters by the Right.
The police behaved pretty disgracefully during the miner's strike. No reason to give them even more powers now.
I really hope this Bill dies a death. Having another leader but keeping the same bad laws is - to me - no better than putting lipstick on a pig. It's still a pig.
Maybe one or two of you will read the header. The stuff in the Bill may be dull compared to the No 10 comedy act but it is important.
Sigh......
Oh, I did read it all right, never fear. Been a little bit overtaken by events (i.e. Ms Patel might get the heave-ho) but, as you say all too well, it remains a serious issue.
End of Plan B to be announced tomorrow, taking effect a week later. PM will hold cabinet meeting in the morning, then Commons statement after PMQs. Currently unclear whether he'll do a press conference.
Ooh, if Brady's announcement is a VoNC then tomorrow is going to be quite the day.
Yes - it does look as though, if there's a VONC, Johnson is going to go down fighting rather than just quit. If he gets, say, 55% Stay vs 45% Go, do we think he'll then soldier on?
Bloody hope so. I’ve got a lot of popcorn to get through.
End of Plan B to be announced tomorrow, taking effect a week later. PM will hold cabinet meeting in the morning, then Commons statement after PMQs. Currently unclear whether he'll do a press conference.
Ooh, if Brady's announcement is a VoNC then tomorrow is going to be quite the day.
Yes - it does look as though, if there's a VONC, Johnson is going to go down fighting rather than just quit. If he gets, say, 55% Stay vs 45% Go, do we think he'll then soldier on?
On those figures, he'd probably say that it settles matters for a generation.
A senior Tory MP tells @nicholaswatt that the balloon is about to go up and the target of 54 letters to trigger a vote of confidence will be met in the coming days.
End of Plan B to be announced tomorrow, taking effect a week later. PM will hold cabinet meeting in the morning, then Commons statement after PMQs. Currently unclear whether he'll do a press conference.
Ooh, if Brady's announcement is a VoNC then tomorrow is going to be quite the day.
Yes - it does look as though, if there's a VONC, Johnson is going to go down fighting rather than just quit. If he gets, say, 55% Stay vs 45% Go, do we think he'll then soldier on?
Absolutely. He would be safe for a year, well past the May locals onto the 2023 locals which will be better given the Tories only got 28% NEV in 2019 anyway.
'Removing Boris Johnson will give us one thing: Keir Starmer as Prime Minister' says Nadine
Why don't you just resign as a conservative as you are so full of negatively the party would not miss you and Dorries is a disaster and needs sending to the back benches
And I can take your place as I rejoin as Boris leaves
I don't hate the Tory leader and PM unlike you.
I do not hate Boris but then I cannot support his behaviour over Paterson, wallpapergate and partygate, and the trashing of the conservative brand
You seem to be happy to predict years in opposition for the party so why not resign as you can hardly promote the party
I am always loyal to the party, even in 2001 when you were happily voting Labour
You voted for Plaid and you simply could not canvass for the party with a new leader in view of your statements
Utter rubbish, you have spent the last few weeks trashing the party and its leader.
Plenty of Tories were loyal to Thatcher to the end in 1990, they still canvassed for Major in 1992
Not sure these proposals are all that radical. As a Wiganer I distinctly remember being subject to random stop and search on suspicion of intention to attend a protest based purely on my starting location. Then we were told which parts of the country we could and couldn't travel to. But that was during the Strike and we weren't middle class. I don't remember a great deal of libertarian outrage at the time.
Not sure how proletarian one had to be. I remember one of the better political reminiscences on PB - alas I forget the name; about being a drinks company representative at that time, being stopped and encouraged to donate the contents of his boot to refresh the plod.
No. Alas. Basically. Where you from? (And numberplates were a pretty big tell in those days). Turn around. You aren't free to travel around the country. Regardless of your intentions. Quite stunning it has been erased from the collective memory. Was just a tad more intrusive than having to wear a mask in Asda. And cheered to the rafters by the Right.
The police behaved pretty disgracefully during the miner's strike. No reason to give them even more powers now.
I really hope this Bill dies a death. Having another leader but keeping the same bad laws is - to me - no better than putting lipstick on a pig. It's still a pig.
Maybe one or two of you will read the header. The stuff in the Bill may be dull compared to the No 10 comedy act but it is important.
Sigh......
With you there. This Bill is an outrage. As is the UC cut. The farrago of impractical bollocks about refugees. 10 years for statue bothering. Millions in contracts for mates and donors. I could go on and on and on. But consensus is Sunak as PM and the Tory Party will be restored to its rightful place as true and proper ruler of the land. Even though he voted happily for all this and more.
End of Plan B to be announced tomorrow, taking effect a week later. PM will hold cabinet meeting in the morning, then Commons statement after PMQs. Currently unclear whether he'll do a press conference.
Ooh, if Brady's announcement is a VoNC then tomorrow is going to be quite the day.
Yes - it does look as though, if there's a VONC, Johnson is going to go down fighting rather than just quit. If he gets, say, 55% Stay vs 45% Go, do we think he'll then soldier on?
It will be 52-48. That is usually enough for Boris.
'Removing Boris Johnson will give us one thing: Keir Starmer as Prime Minister' says Nadine
Why don't you just resign as a conservative as you are so full of negatively the party would not miss you and Dorries is a disaster and needs sending to the back benches
And I can take your place as I rejoin as Boris leaves
I don't hate the Tory leader and PM unlike you.
I do not hate Boris but then I cannot support his behaviour over Paterson, wallpapergate and partygate, and the trashing of the conservative brand
You seem to be happy to predict years in opposition for the party so why not resign as you can hardly promote the party
I am always loyal to the party, even in 2001 when you were happily voting Labour
You voted for Plaid and you simply could not canvass for the party with a new leader in view of your statements
I voted for every Tory on the ballot paper even then, you did not vote for the Tory candidate in 2001
If there is a confidence vote I'd expect Johnson to win in by a similar sort of margin as the Theresa May vote in December 2018 which was 200-117 against a leadership election. Why? I still think most Sunak and Truss supporters don't want to take over just yet: they'd prefer the second half of the year.
On topic: Actually I think there is, or was until the Lords removed it, quite a lot of sensible stuff in the bill. Items 1, 2, 3 and 6 of the proposals listed in Ms Cyclefree's bullet points are very reasonable The last one is no different to existing and long-standing powers on football hooligans, is it? And stopping arrogant nutjobs disrupting roads, transport and construction because they don't like decisions taken in a democracy is well overdue; what they do is not protest, it is intimidation and wrecking.
Unfortunately the government has screwed up the mechanics of the legislation. Quite an achievement when they've got a majority of 80.
EXC As many as 20 Tory MPs from the 2019 intake are planning to submit letters of no confidence in Boris Johnson tomorrow.
The number could breach the 54 letters required for a confidence vote. One 2019 Tory MP told me it could be the PM’s “D-Day”, adding: “His time has gone.
EXC As many as 20 Tory MPs from the 2019 intake are planning to submit letters of no confidence in Boris Johnson tomorrow.
The number could breach the 54 letters required for a confidence vote. One 2019 Tory MP told me it could be the PM’s “D-Day”, adding: “His time has gone.
'Removing Boris Johnson will give us one thing: Keir Starmer as Prime Minister' says Nadine
Why don't you just resign as a conservative as you are so full of negatively the party would not miss you and Dorries is a disaster and needs sending to the back benches
And I can take your place as I rejoin as Boris leaves
I don't hate the Tory leader and PM unlike you.
I do not hate Boris but then I cannot support his behaviour over Paterson, wallpapergate and partygate, and the trashing of the conservative brand
You seem to be happy to predict years in opposition for the party so why not resign as you can hardly promote the party
I am always loyal to the party, even in 2001 when you were happily voting Labour
You voted for Plaid and you simply could not canvass for the party with a new leader in view of your statements
Utter rubbish, you have spent the last few weeks trashing the party and its leader.
Plenty of Tories were loyal to Thatcher to the end in 1990, they still canvassed for Major in 1992
Throughout all of this soap opera it is sobering to remember that Boris Johnson is actually Prime Minister, and that a man who claims he can’t spot a party in his own back yard actually controls this country’s nuclear deterrent.
'Removing Boris Johnson will give us one thing: Keir Starmer as Prime Minister' says Nadine
Why don't you just resign as a conservative as you are so full of negatively the party would not miss you and Dorries is a disaster and needs sending to the back benches
And I can take your place as I rejoin as Boris leaves
I don't hate the Tory leader and PM unlike you.
I do not hate Boris but then I cannot support his behaviour over Paterson, wallpapergate and partygate, and the trashing of the conservative brand
You seem to be happy to predict years in opposition for the party so why not resign as you can hardly promote the party
I am always loyal to the party, even in 2001 when you were happily voting Labour
You voted for Plaid and you simply could not canvass for the party with a new leader in view of your statements
I voted for every Tory on the ballot paper even then, you did not vote for the Tory candidate in 2001
Not sure these proposals are all that radical. As a Wiganer I distinctly remember being subject to random stop and search on suspicion of intention to attend a protest based purely on my starting location. Then we were told which parts of the country we could and couldn't travel to. But that was during the Strike and we weren't middle class. I don't remember a great deal of libertarian outrage at the time.
Not sure how proletarian one had to be. I remember one of the better political reminiscences on PB - alas I forget the name; about being a drinks company representative at that time, being stopped and encouraged to donate the contents of his boot to refresh the plod.
No. Alas. Basically. Where you from? (And numberplates were a pretty big tell in those days). Turn around. You aren't free to travel around the country. Regardless of your intentions. Quite stunning it has been erased from the collective memory. Was just a tad more intrusive than having to wear a mask in Asda. And cheered to the rafters by the Right.
The police behaved pretty disgracefully during the miner's strike. No reason to give them even more powers now.
I really hope this Bill dies a death. Having another leader but keeping the same bad laws is - to me - no better than putting lipstick on a pig. It's still a pig.
Maybe one or two of you will read the header. The stuff in the Bill may be dull compared to the No 10 comedy act but it is important.
Sigh......
Oh, I did read it all right, never fear. Been a little bit overtaken by events (i.e. Ms Patel might get the heave-ho) but, as you say all too well, it remains a serious issue.
This F...ing Tory Party are completely shameless. On Newsnight ... 'He didn't know it was against the rules that he himself had announced that week!!' These shameless sycophants are not even funny anymore
End of Plan B to be announced tomorrow, taking effect a week later. PM will hold cabinet meeting in the morning, then Commons statement after PMQs. Currently unclear whether he'll do a press conference.
Interesting prediction. Unless you've heard/seen information about it?
Not sure these proposals are all that radical. As a Wiganer I distinctly remember being subject to random stop and search on suspicion of intention to attend a protest based purely on my starting location. Then we were told which parts of the country we could and couldn't travel to. But that was during the Strike and we weren't middle class. I don't remember a great deal of libertarian outrage at the time.
Not sure how proletarian one had to be. I remember one of the better political reminiscences on PB - alas I forget the name; about being a drinks company representative at that time, being stopped and encouraged to donate the contents of his boot to refresh the plod.
No. Alas. Basically. Where you from? (And numberplates were a pretty big tell in those days). Turn around. You aren't free to travel around the country. Regardless of your intentions. Quite stunning it has been erased from the collective memory. Was just a tad more intrusive than having to wear a mask in Asda. And cheered to the rafters by the Right.
The police behaved pretty disgracefully during the miner's strike. No reason to give them even more powers now.
I really hope this Bill dies a death. Having another leader but keeping the same bad laws is - to me - no better than putting lipstick on a pig. It's still a pig.
Maybe one or two of you will read the header. The stuff in the Bill may be dull compared to the No 10 comedy act but it is important.
Sigh......
I've read your header, and agree with all of it. The Bill is a disgrace. As I pointed out a while ago, there were demonstrations against the Bill in many English cities at the weekend. I was on one. They were ignored. I'm not quite sure what we do next.
The issue isn't protest. Or at least it shouldn't be. The issue ought to be disruption. We can all be high-minded about rights to free expression and assembly but extinction rebellion and insulate Britain DID cause major disruption i.e harm. People have a right to be angry about that. The Supreme Court might have exploded a legal grenade with its verdict that a certain level of disruption had to be tolerated in a free society. Well what does that mean exactly?
Many liberty lovers would have applauded that but what if the consequence is the government introducing more draconian laws as a counter measure? Activists judges might actually be their own worst enemy in this. Of course I don't have any confidence in Patel who seems like a minister playing to the gallery in search of favourable tabloid headlines. But one has to understand why she has found such fertile territory.
This F...ing Tory Party are completely shameless. On Newsnight ... 'He didn't know it was against the rules that he himself had announced that week!!' These shameless sycophants are not even funny anymore
The ones that bother me are the ones that claim to have only just noticed that Boris is unfit to be prime minister. He has always been dodgy and done a lot of harm.
The problem we have is that so far this century, each PM has been worse than the last. Goodness knows who comes next.
EXC As many as 20 Tory MPs from the 2019 intake are planning to submit letters of no confidence in Boris Johnson tomorrow.
The number could breach the 54 letters required for a confidence vote. One 2019 Tory MP told me it could be the PM’s “D-Day”, adding: “His time has gone.
EXC As many as 20 Tory MPs from the 2019 intake are planning to submit letters of no confidence in Boris Johnson tomorrow.
The number could breach the 54 letters required for a confidence vote. One 2019 Tory MP told me it could be the PM’s “D-Day”, adding: “His time has gone.
End of Plan B to be announced tomorrow, taking effect a week later. PM will hold cabinet meeting in the morning, then Commons statement after PMQs. Currently unclear whether he'll do a press conference.
Interesting prediction. Unless you've heard/seen information about it?
OT Is George Osborne wondering what might have been, had he not chucked it all in?
I suspect Mr 10 jobs is looking at his bank balance and laughing
Really?
Maybe it's me but I'd settle for £1m + being PM rather than £100m and no power.
It looks to me that being PM isn't as much fun as it sounds. Our would be "World King" is only the latest in a long line to be trashed by the job.
Who was the last PM to leave with head held high and dignity intact? May- broken by the job Cameron- broken by the referendum Brown- broken by the job Blair- left sort of on his own terms, but the job sent him mad Major- broken and defeated Thatcher- went mad, then her party deposed her Callaghan was before my time; was his defeat dignified? If not, we're back to Wilson.
Maybe the job of PM really is undoable, and destroys all who crave it.
On topic: Actually I think there is, or was until the Lords removed it, quite a lot of sensible stuff in the bill. Items 1, 2, 3 and 6 of the proposals listed in Ms Cyclefree's bullet points are very reasonable The last one is no different to existing and long-standing powers on football hooligans, is it? And stopping arrogant nutjobs disrupting roads, transport and construction because they don't like decisions taken in a democracy is well overdue; what they do is not protest, it is intimidation and wrecking.
Unfortunately the government has screwed up the mechanics of the legislation. Quite an achievement when they've got a majority of 80.
Item 6 is an appalling piece of legislation. You really do need to look at the clause in detail and the explanation of what it means to understand that. Fortunately it has gone. For now.
But no party proposing this as legislation is fit to be in government.
And they did not screw up the mechanics. They deliberately introduced amendments at the last minute to avoid scrutiny.
'Removing Boris Johnson will give us one thing: Keir Starmer as Prime Minister' says Nadine
Why don't you just resign as a conservative as you are so full of negatively the party would not miss you and Dorries is a disaster and needs sending to the back benches
And I can take your place as I rejoin as Boris leaves
I don't hate the Tory leader and PM unlike you.
I do not hate Boris but then I cannot support his behaviour over Paterson, wallpapergate and partygate, and the trashing of the conservative brand
You seem to be happy to predict years in opposition for the party so why not resign as you can hardly promote the party
I am always loyal to the party, even in 2001 when you were happily voting Labour
You voted for Plaid and you simply could not canvass for the party with a new leader in view of your statements
I voted for every Tory on the ballot paper even then, you did not vote for the Tory candidate in 2001
Slavish loyalty to party is not the supreme virtue you seem to imagine.
Not sure these proposals are all that radical. As a Wiganer I distinctly remember being subject to random stop and search on suspicion of intention to attend a protest based purely on my starting location. Then we were told which parts of the country we could and couldn't travel to. But that was during the Strike and we weren't middle class. I don't remember a great deal of libertarian outrage at the time.
Not sure how proletarian one had to be. I remember one of the better political reminiscences on PB - alas I forget the name; about being a drinks company representative at that time, being stopped and encouraged to donate the contents of his boot to refresh the plod.
No. Alas. Basically. Where you from? (And numberplates were a pretty big tell in those days). Turn around. You aren't free to travel around the country. Regardless of your intentions. Quite stunning it has been erased from the collective memory. Was just a tad more intrusive than having to wear a mask in Asda. And cheered to the rafters by the Right.
The police behaved pretty disgracefully during the miner's strike. No reason to give them even more powers now.
I really hope this Bill dies a death. Having another leader but keeping the same bad laws is - to me - no better than putting lipstick on a pig. It's still a pig.
Maybe one or two of you will read the header. The stuff in the Bill may be dull compared to the No 10 comedy act but it is important.
Sigh......
I've read your header, and agree with all of it. The Bill is a disgrace. As I pointed out a while ago, there were demonstrations against the Bill in many English cities at the weekend. I was on one. They were ignored. I'm not quite sure what we do next.
I have been on one of the protests too, albeit a while ago. An excellent header @cyclefree . The bill was bad enough already but these amendments are outrageous.
No one who wants to live in a free country should support this bill, which reads like something Putin or Xi might produce.
LATEST Chaos at the Carlton Club tonight. Boris Johnson had a drink with Conor Burns. Nadine Dorries was addressing an Onward dinner. Four 1922 members were having supper. The Press arrived believing a plot was under way so everyone left by the backdoor. One MP: "It is a farce." https://twitter.com/christopherhope/status/1483577383479394307
OT Is George Osborne wondering what might have been, had he not chucked it all in?
I suspect Mr 10 jobs is looking at his bank balance and laughing
Really?
Maybe it's me but I'd settle for £1m + being PM rather than £100m and no power.
It looks to me that being PM isn't as much fun as it sounds. Our would be "World King" is only the latest in a long line to be trashed by the job.
Who was the last PM to leave with head held high and dignity intact? May- broken by the job Cameron- broken by the referendum Brown- broken by the job Blair- left sort of on his own terms, but the job sent him mad Major- broken and defeated Thatcher- went mad, then her party deposed her Callaghan was before my time; was his defeat dignified? If not, we're back to Wilson.
Maybe the job of PM really is undoable, and destroys all who crave it.
Wilson, Macmillan and Churchill and arguably Blair left on their own terms, not forced out by their party or after losing a general election.
However as we are not a dictatorship ultimately it is to be expected most of our PMs are either forced out by the voters or their own parties in the end.
The trick is to step down before your shelf life has expired. Had Thatcher stepped down in 1989 after 10 years in power, she would have left office in triumph.
Blair managed to time his leaving for 2007 ie a year before the GFC which toppled Brown after the Brownites put pressure on him to go
The issue isn't protest. Or at least it shouldn't be. The issue ought to be disruption. We can all be high-minded about rights to free expression and assembly but extinction rebellion and insulate Britain DID cause major disruption i.e harm. People have a right to be angry about that. The Supreme Court might have exploded a legal grenade with its verdict that a certain level of disruption had to be tolerated in a free society. Well what does that mean exactly?
Many liberty lovers would have applauded that but what if the consequence is the government introducing more draconian laws as a counter measure? Activists judges might actually be their own worst enemy in this. Of course I don't have any confidence in Patel who seems like a minister playing to the gallery in search of favourable tabloid headlines. But one has to understand why she has found such fertile territory.
We already have plenty of laws to deal with disruption and public order offences.
On topic: Actually I think there is, or was until the Lords removed it, quite a lot of sensible stuff in the bill. Items 1, 2, 3 and 6 of the proposals listed in Ms Cyclefree's bullet points are very reasonable The last one is no different to existing and long-standing powers on football hooligans, is it? And stopping arrogant nutjobs disrupting roads, transport and construction because they don't like decisions taken in a democracy is well overdue; what they do is not protest, it is intimidation and wrecking.
Unfortunately the government has screwed up the mechanics of the legislation. Quite an achievement when they've got a majority of 80.
Item 6 is an appalling piece of legislation. You really do need to look at the clause in detail and the explanation of what it means to understand that. Fortunately it has gone. For now.
But no party proposing this as legislation is fit to be in government.
And they did not screw up the mechanics. They deliberately introduced amendments at the last minute to avoid scrutiny.
If they were trying to avoid scrutiny they didn't succeed. Or at least, maybe they did, but not in the way they intended, which is a pity.
I note you ignored my point about football hooligans, or the wider point about the need for legislation to stop a small number of people wrecking things, causing massive expense to the taxpayer and to private companies and citizens, stopping traffic, adding to pollution, and in some cases preventing ambulances taking ill people to hospital. Are you really cool with the law being totally impotent to deal with all of that?
Cracking header which will get less than the attention it deserves.
...It is easy to look at some individual protest or protester one doesn’t like or agree with and say, of course, they should be stopped... That was pretty well the entirety of the government's argument in the Lords. Intellectually and morally bankrupt.
I see that Bernard Hopeless Hough has resurfaced in the Lords, and unsurprisingly spoke in favour of the measures. Why is it that failed leaders of the Met get enobled ?
The issue isn't protest. Or at least it shouldn't be. The issue ought to be disruption. We can all be high-minded about rights to free expression and assembly but extinction rebellion and insulate Britain DID cause major disruption i.e harm. People have a right to be angry about that. The Supreme Court might have exploded a legal grenade with its verdict that a certain level of disruption had to be tolerated in a free society. Well what does that mean exactly?
Many liberty lovers would have applauded that but what if the consequence is the government introducing more draconian laws as a counter measure? Activists judges might actually be their own worst enemy in this. Of course I don't have any confidence in Patel who seems like a minister playing to the gallery in search of favourable tabloid headlines. But one has to understand why she has found such fertile territory.
Yes but ER and IB protests could have already (and were) dealt with by existing powers. New laws are no substitute for enforcement of existing ones.
These laws are so draconian that any freedom loving person should make them unenforceable.
OT Is George Osborne wondering what might have been, had he not chucked it all in?
I suspect Mr 10 jobs is looking at his bank balance and laughing
Really?
Maybe it's me but I'd settle for £1m + being PM rather than £100m and no power.
It looks to me that being PM isn't as much fun as it sounds. Our would be "World King" is only the latest in a long line to be trashed by the job.
Who was the last PM to leave with head held high and dignity intact? May- broken by the job Cameron- broken by the referendum Brown- broken by the job Blair- left sort of on his own terms, but the job sent him mad Major- broken and defeated Thatcher- went mad, then her party deposed her Callaghan was before my time; was his defeat dignified? If not, we're back to Wilson.
Maybe the job of PM really is undoable, and destroys all who crave it.
Think Callaghan was reasonably dignified. He remained well liked. As did Major to be fair. And Blair stepped down. I don't think it's as bleak as you paint it.
The issue isn't protest. Or at least it shouldn't be. The issue ought to be disruption. We can all be high-minded about rights to free expression and assembly but extinction rebellion and insulate Britain DID cause major disruption i.e harm. People have a right to be angry about that. The Supreme Court might have exploded a legal grenade with its verdict that a certain level of disruption had to be tolerated in a free society. Well what does that mean exactly?
Many liberty lovers would have applauded that but what if the consequence is the government introducing more draconian laws as a counter measure? Activists judges might actually be their own worst enemy in this. Of course I don't have any confidence in Patel who seems like a minister playing to the gallery in search of favourable tabloid headlines. But one has to understand why she has found such fertile territory.
We already have plenty of laws to deal with disruption and public order offences.
Really? So why is this disruption continuing with no legal redress?
Not sure these proposals are all that radical. As a Wiganer I distinctly remember being subject to random stop and search on suspicion of intention to attend a protest based purely on my starting location. Then we were told which parts of the country we could and couldn't travel to. But that was during the Strike and we weren't middle class. I don't remember a great deal of libertarian outrage at the time.
Not sure how proletarian one had to be. I remember one of the better political reminiscences on PB - alas I forget the name; about being a drinks company representative at that time, being stopped and encouraged to donate the contents of his boot to refresh the plod.
No. Alas. Basically. Where you from? (And numberplates were a pretty big tell in those days). Turn around. You aren't free to travel around the country. Regardless of your intentions. Quite stunning it has been erased from the collective memory. Was just a tad more intrusive than having to wear a mask in Asda. And cheered to the rafters by the Right.
The police behaved pretty disgracefully during the miner's strike. No reason to give them even more powers now.
I really hope this Bill dies a death. Having another leader but keeping the same bad laws is - to me - no better than putting lipstick on a pig. It's still a pig.
Maybe one or two of you will read the header. The stuff in the Bill may be dull compared to the No 10 comedy act but it is important.
Sigh......
I've read your header, and agree with all of it. The Bill is a disgrace. As I pointed out a while ago, there were demonstrations against the Bill in many English cities at the weekend. I was on one. They were ignored. I'm not quite sure what we do next.
I have been on one of the protests too, albeit a while ago. An excellent header @cyclefree . The bill was bad enough already but these amendments are outrageous...
The manner of their introduction, without prior consultation, was also outrageous for such deeply controversial matters.
The Times headline says they will remain but the story itself says it’s not decided whether this will be guidance or law.
Of course, if they want to maintain the law, they’ll need a new bill. Which means it will probably be guidance, which will be largely ignored in big cities, I should guess.
OT Is George Osborne wondering what might have been, had he not chucked it all in?
I suspect Mr 10 jobs is looking at his bank balance and laughing
Really?
Maybe it's me but I'd settle for £1m + being PM rather than £100m and no power.
It looks to me that being PM isn't as much fun as it sounds. Our would be "World King" is only the latest in a long line to be trashed by the job.
Who was the last PM to leave with head held high and dignity intact? May- broken by the job Cameron- broken by the referendum Brown- broken by the job Blair- left sort of on his own terms, but the job sent him mad Major- broken and defeated Thatcher- went mad, then her party deposed her Callaghan was before my time; was his defeat dignified? If not, we're back to Wilson.
Maybe the job of PM really is undoable, and destroys all who crave it.
May and Cameron were arguably broken by Boris Johnson's ambition.
The issue isn't protest. Or at least it shouldn't be. The issue ought to be disruption. We can all be high-minded about rights to free expression and assembly but extinction rebellion and insulate Britain DID cause major disruption i.e harm. People have a right to be angry about that. The Supreme Court might have exploded a legal grenade with its verdict that a certain level of disruption had to be tolerated in a free society. Well what does that mean exactly?
Many liberty lovers would have applauded that but what if the consequence is the government introducing more draconian laws as a counter measure? Activists judges might actually be their own worst enemy in this. Of course I don't have any confidence in Patel who seems like a minister playing to the gallery in search of favourable tabloid headlines. But one has to understand why she has found such fertile territory.
We already have plenty of laws to deal with disruption and public order offences.
Really? So why is this disruption continuing with no legal redress?
Because disruption is part and parcel with a free democratic process?
OT Is George Osborne wondering what might have been, had he not chucked it all in?
I suspect Mr 10 jobs is looking at his bank balance and laughing
Really?
Maybe it's me but I'd settle for £1m + being PM rather than £100m and no power.
It looks to me that being PM isn't as much fun as it sounds. Our would be "World King" is only the latest in a long line to be trashed by the job.
Who was the last PM to leave with head held high and dignity intact? May- broken by the job Cameron- broken by the referendum Brown- broken by the job Blair- left sort of on his own terms, but the job sent him mad Major- broken and defeated Thatcher- went mad, then her party deposed her Callaghan was before my time; was his defeat dignified? If not, we're back to Wilson.
Maybe the job of PM really is undoable, and destroys all who crave it.
Wilson, Macmillan and Churchill and arguably Blair left on their own terms, not forced out by their party or after losing a general election.
However as we are not a dictatorship ultimately it is to be expected most of our PMs are either forced out by the voters or their own parties in the end.
The trick is to step down before your shelf life has expired. Had Thatcher stepped down in 1989 after 10 years in power, she would have left office in triumph.
Blair managed to time his leaving for 2007 ie a year before the GFC which toppled Brown after the Brownites put pressure on him to go
Churchill, Macmillan and Wilson may all have resigned rather than being ousted but arguably they all left on health grounds.
OT Is George Osborne wondering what might have been, had he not chucked it all in?
I suspect Mr 10 jobs is looking at his bank balance and laughing
Really?
Maybe it's me but I'd settle for £1m + being PM rather than £100m and no power.
It looks to me that being PM isn't as much fun as it sounds. Our would be "World King" is only the latest in a long line to be trashed by the job.
Who was the last PM to leave with head held high and dignity intact? May- broken by the job Cameron- broken by the referendum Brown- broken by the job Blair- left sort of on his own terms, but the job sent him mad Major- broken and defeated Thatcher- went mad, then her party deposed her Callaghan was before my time; was his defeat dignified? If not, we're back to Wilson.
Maybe the job of PM really is undoable, and destroys all who crave it.
May and Cameron were arguably broken by Boris Johnson's ambition.
Boris has been the cuckoo in the Tory nest since at least 2015. Doing to the party and country what he has been doing to various husbands (and wives!) for several decades.
OT Is George Osborne wondering what might have been, had he not chucked it all in?
I suspect Mr 10 jobs is looking at his bank balance and laughing
Really?
Maybe it's me but I'd settle for £1m + being PM rather than £100m and no power.
It looks to me that being PM isn't as much fun as it sounds. Our would be "World King" is only the latest in a long line to be trashed by the job.
Who was the last PM to leave with head held high and dignity intact? May- broken by the job Cameron- broken by the referendum Brown- broken by the job Blair- left sort of on his own terms, but the job sent him mad Major- broken and defeated Thatcher- went mad, then her party deposed her Callaghan was before my time; was his defeat dignified? If not, we're back to Wilson.
Maybe the job of PM really is undoable, and destroys all who crave it.
May and Cameron were arguably broken by Boris Johnson's ambition.
Not an original comment but Cameron was destroyed by Johnson, May was destroyed by Johnson, and Johnson was destroyed by Johnson.
Not sure these proposals are all that radical. As a Wiganer I distinctly remember being subject to random stop and search on suspicion of intention to attend a protest based purely on my starting location. Then we were told which parts of the country we could and couldn't travel to. But that was during the Strike and we weren't middle class. I don't remember a great deal of libertarian outrage at the time.
Not sure how proletarian one had to be. I remember one of the better political reminiscences on PB - alas I forget the name; about being a drinks company representative at that time, being stopped and encouraged to donate the contents of his boot to refresh the plod.
No. Alas. Basically. Where you from? (And numberplates were a pretty big tell in those days). Turn around. You aren't free to travel around the country. Regardless of your intentions. Quite stunning it has been erased from the collective memory. Was just a tad more intrusive than having to wear a mask in Asda. And cheered to the rafters by the Right.
The police behaved pretty disgracefully during the miner's strike. No reason to give them even more powers now.
I really hope this Bill dies a death. Having another leader but keeping the same bad laws is - to me - no better than putting lipstick on a pig. It's still a pig.
Maybe one or two of you will read the header. The stuff in the Bill may be dull compared to the No 10 comedy act but it is important.
Sigh......
Anecdote Alert.
When my son was diagnosed on the autistic spectrum aged around 8 years old, my wife asked the consultant for a single piece of advice that we should take away from the diagnosis. His advice was never ever allow him to be interviewed by the police, particularly under caution, without legal representation, which was rather telling. He quoted Stefan Kishko.
When I was very, very young, during the Miner's strike, I was a Sales Rep for Courage the Brewers. I called mainly at Co-ops and off-licences in West Norfolk, Cambridgeshire, South Lincs. and Rutland. Rutland was covered by the Leicestershire Constabulary area, and West Leicestershire had a number of mines. On crossing into Rutland on one occasion I was stopped by Officers from the Met Police (yes the Met Police). They cleaned me out of the cases of samples I had in the boot- no point arguing I thought. I even had to help load the beer into their bus from my car. A year or two later I went to a wedding in Bolton. The groom worked for Greater Manchester Police and I regaled my story. He told me his. He said he made a fortune in overtime patroling the Warwickshire coalfields. On one occasion they were staying in a hostel recently vacated by the Met. He said somewhere along the M1 the Met bus was stopped and the hostel tellys were recovered.
I have told my children to be very polite to, but very cautious of the police. My youngest son detests them. I would limit rather than increase their power!
The issue isn't protest. Or at least it shouldn't be. The issue ought to be disruption. We can all be high-minded about rights to free expression and assembly but extinction rebellion and insulate Britain DID cause major disruption i.e harm. People have a right to be angry about that. The Supreme Court might have exploded a legal grenade with its verdict that a certain level of disruption had to be tolerated in a free society. Well what does that mean exactly?
Many liberty lovers would have applauded that but what if the consequence is the government introducing more draconian laws as a counter measure? Activists judges might actually be their own worst enemy in this. Of course I don't have any confidence in Patel who seems like a minister playing to the gallery in search of favourable tabloid headlines. But one has to understand why she has found such fertile territory.
We already have plenty of laws to deal with disruption and public order offences.
Really? So why is this disruption continuing with no legal redress?
Because disruption is part and parcel with a free democratic process?
It is an infringement of the rights of the disruptees. Essentially it is extortion, made even worse by the fact that those who suffer aren't even in a position to buy off the extortioner, but are innocent and powerless victims.
The issue isn't protest. Or at least it shouldn't be. The issue ought to be disruption. We can all be high-minded about rights to free expression and assembly but extinction rebellion and insulate Britain DID cause major disruption i.e harm. People have a right to be angry about that. The Supreme Court might have exploded a legal grenade with its verdict that a certain level of disruption had to be tolerated in a free society. Well what does that mean exactly?
Many liberty lovers would have applauded that but what if the consequence is the government introducing more draconian laws as a counter measure? Activists judges might actually be their own worst enemy in this. Of course I don't have any confidence in Patel who seems like a minister playing to the gallery in search of favourable tabloid headlines. But one has to understand why she has found such fertile territory.
We already have plenty of laws to deal with disruption and public order offences.
Really? So why is this disruption continuing with no legal redress?
Because disruption is part and parcel with a free democratic process?
There is a reasonable debate to be had about the level of disruption to be tolerated as a result of protest in a democratic society.
This bill attempted to give an unacceptable level of discretion to police and Home Secretary to make those decisions without any real check.
'Removing Boris Johnson will give us one thing: Keir Starmer as Prime Minister' says Nadine
Why don't you just resign as a conservative as you are so full of negatively the party would not miss you and Dorries is a disaster and needs sending to the back benches
And I can take your place as I rejoin as Boris leaves
I don't hate the Tory leader and PM unlike you.
I do not hate Boris but then I cannot support his behaviour over Paterson, wallpapergate and partygate, and the trashing of the conservative brand
You seem to be happy to predict years in opposition for the party so why not resign as you can hardly promote the party
I am always loyal to the party, even in 2001 when you were happily voting Labour
You voted for Plaid and you simply could not canvass for the party with a new leader in view of your statements
I voted for every Tory on the ballot paper even then, you did not vote for the Tory candidate in 2001
Slavish loyalty to party is not the supreme virtue you seem to imagine.
I really dislike the habit of always voting the party line at local elections. Anyone with an ounce of involvement in their community should know which councillors get things done for their area and which don't. I've never voted anything but Lib Dem nationally but I've voted for Conservative, Green and UKIP candidates locally who have been known to me. I was elected as an independent to my town council and was the sole non Tory. That was about as fun as it sounds.
The Times headline says they will remain but the story itself says it’s not decided whether this will be guidance or law.
Of course, if they want to maintain the law, they’ll need a new bill. Which means it will probably be guidance, which will be largely ignored in big cities, I should guess.
Hope so. The U.K. is really leading the way for once.
New York is still mid-wave and covid-hysterical, including various measures which seem to be *against* scientific best practice.
OT Is George Osborne wondering what might have been, had he not chucked it all in?
I suspect Mr 10 jobs is looking at his bank balance and laughing
Really?
Maybe it's me but I'd settle for £1m + being PM rather than £100m and no power.
It looks to me that being PM isn't as much fun as it sounds. Our would be "World King" is only the latest in a long line to be trashed by the job.
Who was the last PM to leave with head held high and dignity intact? May- broken by the job Cameron- broken by the referendum Brown- broken by the job Blair- left sort of on his own terms, but the job sent him mad Major- broken and defeated Thatcher- went mad, then her party deposed her Callaghan was before my time; was his defeat dignified? If not, we're back to Wilson.
Maybe the job of PM really is undoable, and destroys all who crave it.
Rumour had it that Wilson was hitting the booze seriously hard towards the end, so his departure may not have been all sweetness and light.
The issue isn't protest. Or at least it shouldn't be. The issue ought to be disruption. We can all be high-minded about rights to free expression and assembly but extinction rebellion and insulate Britain DID cause major disruption i.e harm. People have a right to be angry about that. The Supreme Court might have exploded a legal grenade with its verdict that a certain level of disruption had to be tolerated in a free society. Well what does that mean exactly?
Many liberty lovers would have applauded that but what if the consequence is the government introducing more draconian laws as a counter measure? Activists judges might actually be their own worst enemy in this. Of course I don't have any confidence in Patel who seems like a minister playing to the gallery in search of favourable tabloid headlines. But one has to understand why she has found such fertile territory.
We already have plenty of laws to deal with disruption and public order offences.
So why all this bother with injunctions?
And what is the explanation for granting them? I find it odd that, as I understand it, the injunction was against the group of climate activists. So what's to stop them changing their name as an organisation? Perhaps I just don't understand the law.
If there is a confidence vote I'd expect Johnson to win in by a similar sort of margin as the Theresa May vote in December 2018 which was 200-117 against a leadership election. Why? I still think most Sunak and Truss supporters don't want to take over just yet: they'd prefer the second half of the year.
If he wins a VONC, Johnson is safe for a year. Sunak's window will have closed, economic events will overtake him.
'Removing Boris Johnson will give us one thing: Keir Starmer as Prime Minister' says Nadine
Why don't you just resign as a conservative as you are so full of negatively the party would not miss you and Dorries is a disaster and needs sending to the back benches
And I can take your place as I rejoin as Boris leaves
I don't hate the Tory leader and PM unlike you.
I do not hate Boris but then I cannot support his behaviour over Paterson, wallpapergate and partygate, and the trashing of the conservative brand
You seem to be happy to predict years in opposition for the party so why not resign as you can hardly promote the party
I am always loyal to the party, even in 2001 when you were happily voting Labour
You voted for Plaid and you simply could not canvass for the party with a new leader in view of your statements
I voted for every Tory on the ballot paper even then, you did not vote for the Tory candidate in 2001
Slavish loyalty to party is not the supreme virtue you seem to imagine.
Of course Harriet Harman is the classic example of 'the King is dead, long live the King.'
If there is a confidence vote I'd expect Johnson to win in by a similar sort of margin as the Theresa May vote in December 2018 which was 200-117 against a leadership election. Why? I still think most Sunak and Truss supporters don't want to take over just yet: they'd prefer the second half of the year.
If he wins a VONC, Johnson is safe for a year. Sunak's window will have closed, economic events will overtake him.
It suits me, by the way, if he stays.
People keep saying this, but it's not at all a guarantee of safety for a year.
In other news former FT correspondent Wolfgang Munchau did a very good podcast on the Ukraine situation particularly the relationship between Germany and Russia. He thinks the German media has a much better understanding of Russia than they do of the UK! Quite depressing in all honesty, particularly the continuing closeness of Moscow to the SPD (but not the Greens).
I hope he's exaggerating but if correct it's no wonder Putin would feel emboldened.
OT Is George Osborne wondering what might have been, had he not chucked it all in?
I suspect Mr 10 jobs is looking at his bank balance and laughing
Really?
Maybe it's me but I'd settle for £1m + being PM rather than £100m and no power.
It looks to me that being PM isn't as much fun as it sounds. Our would be "World King" is only the latest in a long line to be trashed by the job.
Who was the last PM to leave with head held high and dignity intact? May- broken by the job Cameron- broken by the referendum Brown- broken by the job Blair- left sort of on his own terms, but the job sent him mad Major- broken and defeated Thatcher- went mad, then her party deposed her Callaghan was before my time; was his defeat dignified? If not, we're back to Wilson.
Maybe the job of PM really is undoable, and destroys all who crave it.
Think Callaghan was reasonably dignified. He remained well liked. As did Major to be fair. And Blair stepped down. I don't think it's as bleak as you paint it.
One thing that I deplore is leaders stepping down the day after a GE defeat. It takes time for a party to process what went wrong, and rushing to a new leader often results in a poor choice. In anything other than a hung parliament, with risk of further election, the leader should stay on for a year.
If there is a confidence vote I'd expect Johnson to win in by a similar sort of margin as the Theresa May vote in December 2018 which was 200-117 against a leadership election. Why? I still think most Sunak and Truss supporters don't want to take over just yet: they'd prefer the second half of the year.
If he wins a VONC, Johnson is safe for a year. Sunak's window will have closed, economic events will overtake him.
It suits me, by the way, if he stays.
People keep saying this, but it's not at all a guarantee of safety for a year.
Forgive me for my confusion, I do not understand the mechanics of the Conservative Party, but don't the rules preclude a VONC within a year?
On topic: Actually I think there is, or was until the Lords removed it, quite a lot of sensible stuff in the bill. Items 1, 2, 3 and 6 of the proposals listed in Ms Cyclefree's bullet points are very reasonable The last one is no different to existing and long-standing powers on football hooligans, is it? And stopping arrogant nutjobs disrupting roads, transport and construction because they don't like decisions taken in a democracy is well overdue; what they do is not protest, it is intimidation and wrecking.
Unfortunately the government has screwed up the mechanics of the legislation. Quite an achievement when they've got a majority of 80.
Item 6 is an appalling piece of legislation. You really do need to look at the clause in detail and the explanation of what it means to understand that. Fortunately it has gone. For now.
But no party proposing this as legislation is fit to be in government.
And they did not screw up the mechanics. They deliberately introduced amendments at the last minute to avoid scrutiny.
If they were trying to avoid scrutiny they didn't succeed. Or at least, maybe they did, but not in the way they intended, which is a pity.
I note you ignored my point about football hooligans, or the wider point about the need for legislation to stop a small number of people wrecking things, causing massive expense to the taxpayer and to private companies and citizens, stopping traffic, adding to pollution, and in some cases preventing ambulances taking ill people to hospital. Are you really cool with the law being totally impotent to deal with all of that?
In other news former FT correspondent Wolfgang Munchau did a very good podcast on the Ukraine situation particularly the relationship between Germany and Russia. He thinks the German media has a much better understanding of Russia than they do of the UK! Quite depressing in all honesty, particularly the continuing closeness of Moscow to the SPD (but not the Greens).
I hope he's exaggerating but if correct it's no wonder Putin would feel emboldened.
Wolfgang is probably one of the smartest commentators on European affairs and is also a really top bloke.
If there is a confidence vote I'd expect Johnson to win in by a similar sort of margin as the Theresa May vote in December 2018 which was 200-117 against a leadership election. Why? I still think most Sunak and Truss supporters don't want to take over just yet: they'd prefer the second half of the year.
If he wins a VONC, Johnson is safe for a year. Sunak's window will have closed, economic events will overtake him.
It suits me, by the way, if he stays.
People keep saying this, but it's not at all a guarantee of safety for a year.
Forgive me for my confusion, I do not understand the mechanics of the Conservative Party, but don't the rules preclude a VONC within a year?
The rules can be changed, of course. And May survived a VONC in December 2018. I assume she was still PM in December 2019?
If there is a confidence vote I'd expect Johnson to win in by a similar sort of margin as the Theresa May vote in December 2018 which was 200-117 against a leadership election. Why? I still think most Sunak and Truss supporters don't want to take over just yet: they'd prefer the second half of the year.
If he wins a VONC, Johnson is safe for a year. Sunak's window will have closed, economic events will overtake him.
It suits me, by the way, if he stays.
People keep saying this, but it's not at all a guarantee of safety for a year.
Forgive me for my confusion, I do not understand the mechanics of the Conservative Party, but don't the rules preclude a VONC within a year?
Though if they want to do so the 1922 could change the rules.
Not sure these proposals are all that radical. As a Wiganer I distinctly remember being subject to random stop and search on suspicion of intention to attend a protest based purely on my starting location. Then we were told which parts of the country we could and couldn't travel to. But that was during the Strike and we weren't middle class. I don't remember a great deal of libertarian outrage at the time.
Not sure how proletarian one had to be. I remember one of the better political reminiscences on PB - alas I forget the name; about being a drinks company representative at that time, being stopped and encouraged to donate the contents of his boot to refresh the plod.
No. Alas. Basically. Where you from? (And numberplates were a pretty big tell in those days). Turn around. You aren't free to travel around the country. Regardless of your intentions. Quite stunning it has been erased from the collective memory. Was just a tad more intrusive than having to wear a mask in Asda. And cheered to the rafters by the Right.
The police behaved pretty disgracefully during the miner's strike. No reason to give them even more powers now.
I really hope this Bill dies a death. Having another leader but keeping the same bad laws is - to me - no better than putting lipstick on a pig. It's still a pig.
Maybe one or two of you will read the header. The stuff in the Bill may be dull compared to the No 10 comedy act but it is important.
Sigh......
Anecdote Alert.
When my son was diagnosed on the autistic spectrum aged around 8 years old, my wife asked the consultant for a single piece of advice that we should take away from the diagnosis. His advice was never ever allow him to be interviewed by the police, particularly under caution, without legal representation, which was rather telling. He quoted Stefan Kishko.
When I was very, very young, during the Miner's strike, I was a Sales Rep for Courage the Brewers. I called mainly at Co-ops and off-licences in West Norfolk, Cambridgeshire, South Lincs. and Rutland. Rutland was covered by the Leicestershire Constabulary area, and West Leicestershire had a number of mines. On crossing into Rutland on one occasion I was stopped by Officers from the Met Police (yes the Met Police). They cleaned me out of the cases of samples I had in the boot- no point arguing I thought. I even had to help load the beer into their bus from my car. A year or two later I went to a wedding in Bolton. The groom worked for Greater Manchester Police and I regaled my story. He told me his. He said he made a fortune in overtime patroling the Warwickshire coalfields. On one occasion they were staying in a hostel recently vacated by the Met. He said somewhere along the M1 the Met bus was stopped and the hostel tellys were recovered.
I have told my children to be very polite to, but very cautious of the police. My youngest son detests them. I would limit rather than increase their power!
I can't agree more. I remember seeing pictures of the police in the miners strike waving wads of cash in the faces of the picket line, their overtime money.
Never help the police with their enquiries. Remember, the only reason they ask you questions is because they don't have the evidence to charge until you give it to them.
If there is a confidence vote I'd expect Johnson to win in by a similar sort of margin as the Theresa May vote in December 2018 which was 200-117 against a leadership election. Why? I still think most Sunak and Truss supporters don't want to take over just yet: they'd prefer the second half of the year.
If he wins a VONC, Johnson is safe for a year. Sunak's window will have closed, economic events will overtake him.
It suits me, by the way, if he stays.
People keep saying this, but it's not at all a guarantee of safety for a year.
Forgive me for my confusion, I do not understand the mechanics of the Conservative Party, but don't the rules preclude a VONC within a year?
The rules can be changed, of course. And May survived a VONC in December 2018. I assume she was still PM in December 2019?
If there is a confidence vote I'd expect Johnson to win in by a similar sort of margin as the Theresa May vote in December 2018 which was 200-117 against a leadership election. Why? I still think most Sunak and Truss supporters don't want to take over just yet: they'd prefer the second half of the year.
If he wins a VONC, Johnson is safe for a year. Sunak's window will have closed, economic events will overtake him.
It suits me, by the way, if he stays.
People keep saying this, but it's not at all a guarantee of safety for a year.
Forgive me for my confusion, I do not understand the mechanics of the Conservative Party, but don't the rules preclude a VONC within a year?
Though if they want to do so the 1922 could change the rules.
It is a very fluid organisation this Conservative Party.
And thanks RobD. for taking the p*** out of me by suggesting Mrs May was PM in December 2019. Much appreciated.
If there is a confidence vote I'd expect Johnson to win in by a similar sort of margin as the Theresa May vote in December 2018 which was 200-117 against a leadership election. Why? I still think most Sunak and Truss supporters don't want to take over just yet: they'd prefer the second half of the year.
If he wins a VONC, Johnson is safe for a year. Sunak's window will have closed, economic events will overtake him.
It suits me, by the way, if he stays.
People keep saying this, but it's not at all a guarantee of safety for a year.
Forgive me for my confusion, I do not understand the mechanics of the Conservative Party, but don't the rules preclude a VONC within a year?
The rules can be changed, of course. And May survived a VONC in December 2018. I assume she was still PM in December 2019?
If there is a confidence vote I'd expect Johnson to win in by a similar sort of margin as the Theresa May vote in December 2018 which was 200-117 against a leadership election. Why? I still think most Sunak and Truss supporters don't want to take over just yet: they'd prefer the second half of the year.
If he wins a VONC, Johnson is safe for a year. Sunak's window will have closed, economic events will overtake him.
It suits me, by the way, if he stays.
People keep saying this, but it's not at all a guarantee of safety for a year.
Forgive me for my confusion, I do not understand the mechanics of the Conservative Party, but don't the rules preclude a VONC within a year?
Though if they want to do so the 1922 could change the rules.
It is a very fluid organisation this Conservative Party.
And thanks RobD. for taking the p*** out of me by suggesting Mrs May was PM in December 2019. Much appreciated.
Not taking the piss out of anyone. Just demonstrating with a recent example that surviving a VONC is not a guarantee of safety for a year as you were suggesting.
The issue isn't protest. Or at least it shouldn't be. The issue ought to be disruption. We can all be high-minded about rights to free expression and assembly but extinction rebellion and insulate Britain DID cause major disruption i.e harm. People have a right to be angry about that. The Supreme Court might have exploded a legal grenade with its verdict that a certain level of disruption had to be tolerated in a free society. Well what does that mean exactly?
Many liberty lovers would have applauded that but what if the consequence is the government introducing more draconian laws as a counter measure? Activists judges might actually be their own worst enemy in this. Of course I don't have any confidence in Patel who seems like a minister playing to the gallery in search of favourable tabloid headlines. But one has to understand why she has found such fertile territory.
We already have plenty of laws to deal with disruption and public order offences.
Really? So why is this disruption continuing with no legal redress?
Unusual nonsense from you tonight.
Some protesters have had legal action taken against them. Some have gone to jail.
Others have not - largely because the police have failed to enforce the powers they do have. In one case the police seemed to be joining in with the dancing of the protesters, possibly because they wanted to look cool or agreed with them. Who can say. But it demonstrates the problem - if your right to speak freely, to protest is dependant on whether a police force agrees with you or not, you are not free. You are dependant on whether you are flavour of the month with the authorities. Such arbitrariness is not the mark of a free society.
We have an unhappy combination in this country - laws which are not enforced, a police force which acts arbitrarily or illegally and which it is not safe to trust and politicians who rush to pass ever more dictatorial laws rather than enforcing those laws we do have and thinking carefully about how to balance the right to protest with other rights. Rather than genuine law and order we just have performative nonsense which is doomed to fail. It is the defining mark of this government and will outlive Boris's tenure as PM.
The issue isn't protest. Or at least it shouldn't be. The issue ought to be disruption. We can all be high-minded about rights to free expression and assembly but extinction rebellion and insulate Britain DID cause major disruption i.e harm. People have a right to be angry about that. The Supreme Court might have exploded a legal grenade with its verdict that a certain level of disruption had to be tolerated in a free society. Well what does that mean exactly?
Many liberty lovers would have applauded that but what if the consequence is the government introducing more draconian laws as a counter measure? Activists judges might actually be their own worst enemy in this. Of course I don't have any confidence in Patel who seems like a minister playing to the gallery in search of favourable tabloid headlines. But one has to understand why she has found such fertile territory.
We already have plenty of laws to deal with disruption and public order offences.
Really? So why is this disruption continuing with no legal redress?
On topic: Actually I think there is, or was until the Lords removed it, quite a lot of sensible stuff in the bill. Items 1, 2, 3 and 6 of the proposals listed in Ms Cyclefree's bullet points are very reasonable The last one is no different to existing and long-standing powers on football hooligans, is it? And stopping arrogant nutjobs disrupting roads, transport and construction because they don't like decisions taken in a democracy is well overdue; what they do is not protest, it is intimidation and wrecking.
Unfortunately the government has screwed up the mechanics of the legislation. Quite an achievement when they've got a majority of 80.
Item 6 is an appalling piece of legislation. You really do need to look at the clause in detail and the explanation of what it means to understand that. Fortunately it has gone. For now.
But no party proposing this as legislation is fit to be in government.
And they did not screw up the mechanics. They deliberately introduced amendments at the last minute to avoid scrutiny.
If they were trying to avoid scrutiny they didn't succeed. Or at least, maybe they did, but not in the way they intended, which is a pity.
I note you ignored my point about football hooligans, or the wider point about the need for legislation to stop a small number of people wrecking things, causing massive expense to the taxpayer and to private companies and citizens, stopping traffic, adding to pollution, and in some cases preventing ambulances taking ill people to hospital. Are you really cool with the law being totally impotent to deal with all of that?
It's breach of the peace to block a public highway. There's already law to deal with that.
If there is a confidence vote I'd expect Johnson to win in by a similar sort of margin as the Theresa May vote in December 2018 which was 200-117 against a leadership election. Why? I still think most Sunak and Truss supporters don't want to take over just yet: they'd prefer the second half of the year.
If he wins a VONC, Johnson is safe for a year. Sunak's window will have closed, economic events will overtake him.
It suits me, by the way, if he stays.
People keep saying this, but it's not at all a guarantee of safety for a year.
Forgive me for my confusion, I do not understand the mechanics of the Conservative Party, but don't the rules preclude a VONC within a year?
Though if they want to do so the 1922 could change the rules.
If Boris survives a VONC, he likely also has a majority of his suporters on the 1922 too
If there is a confidence vote I'd expect Johnson to win in by a similar sort of margin as the Theresa May vote in December 2018 which was 200-117 against a leadership election. Why? I still think most Sunak and Truss supporters don't want to take over just yet: they'd prefer the second half of the year.
If he wins a VONC, Johnson is safe for a year. Sunak's window will have closed, economic events will overtake him.
It suits me, by the way, if he stays.
People keep saying this, but it's not at all a guarantee of safety for a year.
Forgive me for my confusion, I do not understand the mechanics of the Conservative Party, but don't the rules preclude a VONC within a year?
A vote of no confidence isn't the only way a PM can be forced out.
Another great header from Ms Cyclefree. And the idea that Patel wants to 'legislate to protect freedom of speech' when one of the greatest threats to freedom of speech is Ms Patel and her laws is laughable.
If there is a confidence vote I'd expect Johnson to win in by a similar sort of margin as the Theresa May vote in December 2018 which was 200-117 against a leadership election. Why? I still think most Sunak and Truss supporters don't want to take over just yet: they'd prefer the second half of the year.
If he wins a VONC, Johnson is safe for a year. Sunak's window will have closed, economic events will overtake him.
It suits me, by the way, if he stays.
People keep saying this, but it's not at all a guarantee of safety for a year.
Forgive me for my confusion, I do not understand the mechanics of the Conservative Party, but don't the rules preclude a VONC within a year?
Though if they want to do so the 1922 could change the rules.
If Boris survives a VONC, he likely also has a majority of his suporters on the 1922 too
That's true... for now. But what if there's more Partygate news? He could survive a VONC, then let's say there's a photo of him dancing on a table at a Downing Street party. You could end up with a situation where a clear majority of MPs want him gone and the 1922 Cttee re-write the rules.
Not sure these proposals are all that radical. As a Wiganer I distinctly remember being subject to random stop and search on suspicion of intention to attend a protest based purely on my starting location. Then we were told which parts of the country we could and couldn't travel to. But that was during the Strike and we weren't middle class. I don't remember a great deal of libertarian outrage at the time.
Not sure how proletarian one had to be. I remember one of the better political reminiscences on PB - alas I forget the name; about being a drinks company representative at that time, being stopped and encouraged to donate the contents of his boot to refresh the plod.
No. Alas. Basically. Where you from? (And numberplates were a pretty big tell in those days). Turn around. You aren't free to travel around the country. Regardless of your intentions. Quite stunning it has been erased from the collective memory. Was just a tad more intrusive than having to wear a mask in Asda. And cheered to the rafters by the Right.
The police behaved pretty disgracefully during the miner's strike. No reason to give them even more powers now.
I really hope this Bill dies a death. Having another leader but keeping the same bad laws is - to me - no better than putting lipstick on a pig. It's still a pig.
Maybe one or two of you will read the header. The stuff in the Bill may be dull compared to the No 10 comedy act but it is important.
Sigh......
Anecdote Alert.
When my son was diagnosed on the autistic spectrum aged around 8 years old, my wife asked the consultant for a single piece of advice that we should take away from the diagnosis. His advice was never ever allow him to be interviewed by the police, particularly under caution, without legal representation, which was rather telling. He quoted Stefan Kishko.
When I was very, very young, during the Miner's strike, I was a Sales Rep for Courage the Brewers. I called mainly at Co-ops and off-licences in West Norfolk, Cambridgeshire, South Lincs. and Rutland. Rutland was covered by the Leicestershire Constabulary area, and West Leicestershire had a number of mines. On crossing into Rutland on one occasion I was stopped by Officers from the Met Police (yes the Met Police). They cleaned me out of the cases of samples I had in the boot- no point arguing I thought. I even had to help load the beer into their bus from my car. A year or two later I went to a wedding in Bolton. The groom worked for Greater Manchester Police and I regaled my story. He told me his. He said he made a fortune in overtime patroling the Warwickshire coalfields. On one occasion they were staying in a hostel recently vacated by the Met. He said somewhere along the M1 the Met bus was stopped and the hostel tellys were recovered.
I have told my children to be very polite to, but very cautious of the police. My youngest son detests them. I would limit rather than increase their power!
I can't agree more. I remember seeing pictures of the police in the miners strike waving wads of cash in the faces of the picket line, their overtime money.
Never help the police with their enquiries. Remember, the only reason they ask you questions is because they don't have the evidence to charge until you give it to them.
Never ever talk to the police without a lawyer present.
The issue isn't protest. Or at least it shouldn't be. The issue ought to be disruption. We can all be high-minded about rights to free expression and assembly but extinction rebellion and insulate Britain DID cause major disruption i.e harm. People have a right to be angry about that. The Supreme Court might have exploded a legal grenade with its verdict that a certain level of disruption had to be tolerated in a free society. Well what does that mean exactly?
Many liberty lovers would have applauded that but what if the consequence is the government introducing more draconian laws as a counter measure? Activists judges might actually be their own worst enemy in this. Of course I don't have any confidence in Patel who seems like a minister playing to the gallery in search of favourable tabloid headlines. But one has to understand why she has found such fertile territory.
We already have plenty of laws to deal with disruption and public order offences.
Really? So why is this disruption continuing with no legal redress?
That's not true at all, the government successfully sought injunctions on the specific disruption and the idiots from insulate Britain ended up going to jail and now there's no disruption.
There are existing laws to deal with this stuff, there's no reason to threaten the right to peaceful protest.
Hopefully the idiotic citizenship bill gets thrown out too. It's time for grown up government, I'm surprised that you think it's a good idea to hand the police the power to say which protests can and can't go ahead. As we saw in lockdown they ruthlessly shut down protests against their own actions in Clapham while allowing other protests to go ahead.
If there is a confidence vote I'd expect Johnson to win in by a similar sort of margin as the Theresa May vote in December 2018 which was 200-117 against a leadership election. Why? I still think most Sunak and Truss supporters don't want to take over just yet: they'd prefer the second half of the year.
If he wins a VONC, Johnson is safe for a year. Sunak's window will have closed, economic events will overtake him.
It suits me, by the way, if he stays.
People keep saying this, but it's not at all a guarantee of safety for a year.
Forgive me for my confusion, I do not understand the mechanics of the Conservative Party, but don't the rules preclude a VONC within a year?
A vote of no confidence isn't the only way a PM can be forced out.
Short of the opposition winning a VONC in Parliament, the Queen removing the PM or the PM losing a general election, a PM losing the leadership of their party is the only way they can be removed as PM against their will
Throughout all of this soap opera it is sobering to remember that Boris Johnson is actually Prime Minister, and that a man who claims he can’t spot a party in his own back yard actually controls this country’s nuclear deterrent.
He's probably written two letters of last resort for each sub though: one pro- and one anti-launch.
Throughout all of this soap opera it is sobering to remember that Boris Johnson is actually Prime Minister, and that a man who claims he can’t spot a party in his own back yard actually controls this country’s nuclear deterrent.
He's probably written two letters of last resort for each sub though.
Not sure these proposals are all that radical. As a Wiganer I distinctly remember being subject to random stop and search on suspicion of intention to attend a protest based purely on my starting location. Then we were told which parts of the country we could and couldn't travel to. But that was during the Strike and we weren't middle class. I don't remember a great deal of libertarian outrage at the time.
Not sure how proletarian one had to be. I remember one of the better political reminiscences on PB - alas I forget the name; about being a drinks company representative at that time, being stopped and encouraged to donate the contents of his boot to refresh the plod.
No. Alas. Basically. Where you from? (And numberplates were a pretty big tell in those days). Turn around. You aren't free to travel around the country. Regardless of your intentions. Quite stunning it has been erased from the collective memory. Was just a tad more intrusive than having to wear a mask in Asda. And cheered to the rafters by the Right.
The police behaved pretty disgracefully during the miner's strike. No reason to give them even more powers now.
I really hope this Bill dies a death. Having another leader but keeping the same bad laws is - to me - no better than putting lipstick on a pig. It's still a pig.
Maybe one or two of you will read the header. The stuff in the Bill may be dull compared to the No 10 comedy act but it is important.
Sigh......
Anecdote Alert.
When my son was diagnosed on the autistic spectrum aged around 8 years old, my wife asked the consultant for a single piece of advice that we should take away from the diagnosis. His advice was never ever allow him to be interviewed by the police, particularly under caution, without legal representation, which was rather telling. He quoted Stefan Kishko.
When I was very, very young, during the Miner's strike, I was a Sales Rep for Courage the Brewers. I called mainly at Co-ops and off-licences in West Norfolk, Cambridgeshire, South Lincs. and Rutland. Rutland was covered by the Leicestershire Constabulary area, and West Leicestershire had a number of mines. On crossing into Rutland on one occasion I was stopped by Officers from the Met Police (yes the Met Police). They cleaned me out of the cases of samples I had in the boot- no point arguing I thought. I even had to help load the beer into their bus from my car. A year or two later I went to a wedding in Bolton. The groom worked for Greater Manchester Police and I regaled my story. He told me his. He said he made a fortune in overtime patroling the Warwickshire coalfields. On one occasion they were staying in a hostel recently vacated by the Met. He said somewhere along the M1 the Met bus was stopped and the hostel tellys were recovered.
I have told my children to be very polite to, but very cautious of the police. My youngest son detests them. I would limit rather than increase their power!
I can't agree more. I remember seeing pictures of the police in the miners strike waving wads of cash in the faces of the picket line, their overtime money.
Never help the police with their enquiries. Remember, the only reason they ask you questions is because they don't have the evidence to charge until you give it to them.
Not sure these proposals are all that radical. As a Wiganer I distinctly remember being subject to random stop and search on suspicion of intention to attend a protest based purely on my starting location. Then we were told which parts of the country we could and couldn't travel to. But that was during the Strike and we weren't middle class. I don't remember a great deal of libertarian outrage at the time.
Not sure how proletarian one had to be. I remember one of the better political reminiscences on PB - alas I forget the name; about being a drinks company representative at that time, being stopped and encouraged to donate the contents of his boot to refresh the plod.
No. Alas. Basically. Where you from? (And numberplates were a pretty big tell in those days). Turn around. You aren't free to travel around the country. Regardless of your intentions. Quite stunning it has been erased from the collective memory. Was just a tad more intrusive than having to wear a mask in Asda. And cheered to the rafters by the Right.
The police behaved pretty disgracefully during the miner's strike. No reason to give them even more powers now.
I really hope this Bill dies a death. Having another leader but keeping the same bad laws is - to me - no better than putting lipstick on a pig. It's still a pig.
Maybe one or two of you will read the header. The stuff in the Bill may be dull compared to the No 10 comedy act but it is important.
Sigh......
Anecdote Alert.
When my son was diagnosed on the autistic spectrum aged around 8 years old, my wife asked the consultant for a single piece of advice that we should take away from the diagnosis. His advice was never ever allow him to be interviewed by the police, particularly under caution, without legal representation, which was rather telling. He quoted Stefan Kishko.
When I was very, very young, during the Miner's strike, I was a Sales Rep for Courage the Brewers. I called mainly at Co-ops and off-licences in West Norfolk, Cambridgeshire, South Lincs. and Rutland. Rutland was covered by the Leicestershire Constabulary area, and West Leicestershire had a number of mines. On crossing into Rutland on one occasion I was stopped by Officers from the Met Police (yes the Met Police). They cleaned me out of the cases of samples I had in the boot- no point arguing I thought. I even had to help load the beer into their bus from my car. A year or two later I went to a wedding in Bolton. The groom worked for Greater Manchester Police and I regaled my story. He told me his. He said he made a fortune in overtime patroling the Warwickshire coalfields. On one occasion they were staying in a hostel recently vacated by the Met. He said somewhere along the M1 the Met bus was stopped and the hostel tellys were recovered.
I have told my children to be very polite to, but very cautious of the police. My youngest son detests them. I would limit rather than increase their power!
I can't agree more. I remember seeing pictures of the police in the miners strike waving wads of cash in the faces of the picket line, their overtime money.
Never help the police with their enquiries. Remember, the only reason they ask you questions is because they don't have the evidence to charge until you give it to them.
Although. My uncle was a regular Bobby. He made huge sums during the Strike, but struggled to reconcile the behaviour of many of his colleagues. He was a working class Wiganer, who joined the Police precisely to avoid having to go down t'pit. He collected for the Strike fund in his spare time. Wigan Police was a source of healthy donations. Many of his mates suffered. He took to drink, and died at an early age. Not all coppers are bastards.
Not sure these proposals are all that radical. As a Wiganer I distinctly remember being subject to random stop and search on suspicion of intention to attend a protest based purely on my starting location. Then we were told which parts of the country we could and couldn't travel to. But that was during the Strike and we weren't middle class. I don't remember a great deal of libertarian outrage at the time.
Not sure how proletarian one had to be. I remember one of the better political reminiscences on PB - alas I forget the name; about being a drinks company representative at that time, being stopped and encouraged to donate the contents of his boot to refresh the plod.
No. Alas. Basically. Where you from? (And numberplates were a pretty big tell in those days). Turn around. You aren't free to travel around the country. Regardless of your intentions. Quite stunning it has been erased from the collective memory. Was just a tad more intrusive than having to wear a mask in Asda. And cheered to the rafters by the Right.
The police behaved pretty disgracefully during the miner's strike. No reason to give them even more powers now.
I really hope this Bill dies a death. Having another leader but keeping the same bad laws is - to me - no better than putting lipstick on a pig. It's still a pig.
Maybe one or two of you will read the header. The stuff in the Bill may be dull compared to the No 10 comedy act but it is important.
Sigh......
Anecdote Alert.
When my son was diagnosed on the autistic spectrum aged around 8 years old, my wife asked the consultant for a single piece of advice that we should take away from the diagnosis. His advice was never ever allow him to be interviewed by the police, particularly under caution, without legal representation, which was rather telling. He quoted Stefan Kishko.
When I was very, very young, during the Miner's strike, I was a Sales Rep for Courage the Brewers. I called mainly at Co-ops and off-licences in West Norfolk, Cambridgeshire, South Lincs. and Rutland. Rutland was covered by the Leicestershire Constabulary area, and West Leicestershire had a number of mines. On crossing into Rutland on one occasion I was stopped by Officers from the Met Police (yes the Met Police). They cleaned me out of the cases of samples I had in the boot- no point arguing I thought. I even had to help load the beer into their bus from my car. A year or two later I went to a wedding in Bolton. The groom worked for Greater Manchester Police and I regaled my story. He told me his. He said he made a fortune in overtime patroling the Warwickshire coalfields. On one occasion they were staying in a hostel recently vacated by the Met. He said somewhere along the M1 the Met bus was stopped and the hostel tellys were recovered.
I have told my children to be very polite to, but very cautious of the police. My youngest son detests them. I would limit rather than increase their power!
I can't agree more. I remember seeing pictures of the police in the miners strike waving wads of cash in the faces of the picket line, their overtime money.
Never help the police with their enquiries. Remember, the only reason they ask you questions is because they don't have the evidence to charge until you give it to them.
Never ever talk to the police without a lawyer present.
Not sure these proposals are all that radical. As a Wiganer I distinctly remember being subject to random stop and search on suspicion of intention to attend a protest based purely on my starting location. Then we were told which parts of the country we could and couldn't travel to. But that was during the Strike and we weren't middle class. I don't remember a great deal of libertarian outrage at the time.
Not sure how proletarian one had to be. I remember one of the better political reminiscences on PB - alas I forget the name; about being a drinks company representative at that time, being stopped and encouraged to donate the contents of his boot to refresh the plod.
No. Alas. Basically. Where you from? (And numberplates were a pretty big tell in those days). Turn around. You aren't free to travel around the country. Regardless of your intentions. Quite stunning it has been erased from the collective memory. Was just a tad more intrusive than having to wear a mask in Asda. And cheered to the rafters by the Right.
The police behaved pretty disgracefully during the miner's strike. No reason to give them even more powers now.
I really hope this Bill dies a death. Having another leader but keeping the same bad laws is - to me - no better than putting lipstick on a pig. It's still a pig.
Maybe one or two of you will read the header. The stuff in the Bill may be dull compared to the No 10 comedy act but it is important.
Sigh......
Anecdote Alert.
When my son was diagnosed on the autistic spectrum aged around 8 years old, my wife asked the consultant for a single piece of advice that we should take away from the diagnosis. His advice was never ever allow him to be interviewed by the police, particularly under caution, without legal representation, which was rather telling. He quoted Stefan Kishko.
When I was very, very young, during the Miner's strike, I was a Sales Rep for Courage the Brewers. I called mainly at Co-ops and off-licences in West Norfolk, Cambridgeshire, South Lincs. and Rutland. Rutland was covered by the Leicestershire Constabulary area, and West Leicestershire had a number of mines. On crossing into Rutland on one occasion I was stopped by Officers from the Met Police (yes the Met Police). They cleaned me out of the cases of samples I had in the boot- no point arguing I thought. I even had to help load the beer into their bus from my car. A year or two later I went to a wedding in Bolton. The groom worked for Greater Manchester Police and I regaled my story. He told me his. He said he made a fortune in overtime patroling the Warwickshire coalfields. On one occasion they were staying in a hostel recently vacated by the Met. He said somewhere along the M1 the Met bus was stopped and the hostel tellys were recovered.
I have told my children to be very polite to, but very cautious of the police. My youngest son detests them. I would limit rather than increase their power!
I can't agree more. I remember seeing pictures of the police in the miners strike waving wads of cash in the faces of the picket line, their overtime money.
Never help the police with their enquiries. Remember, the only reason they ask you questions is because they don't have the evidence to charge until you give it to them.
Never ever accept a caution.
Why not?
They show up on an enhanced DBS check despite no evidence of guilt of any crime. Police cautions are a way for the police to label people as "wrong 'uns" officially. It's better to go to court and clear your name than accept a police caution.
Excellent piece from @Cyclefree . It’s rather good that Patel isn’t the sharpest, as she has been hoist by her own petard here.
As others have said, there are already laws to stop hippies blocking motorways. Let us not create a new set of badly drafted laws that can and will be misused.
As for increasing the penalties? I’d have thought Bristol would have taught us a lesson. If juries consider the penalties too great, they will nullify.
Faced with putting fresh faced kids (who may have otherwise made a good contribution to society) in the slammer for six months, many jurors - rightly or wrongly - will consider an acquittal the lesser of two wrongs.
Not sure these proposals are all that radical. As a Wiganer I distinctly remember being subject to random stop and search on suspicion of intention to attend a protest based purely on my starting location. Then we were told which parts of the country we could and couldn't travel to. But that was during the Strike and we weren't middle class. I don't remember a great deal of libertarian outrage at the time.
Not sure how proletarian one had to be. I remember one of the better political reminiscences on PB - alas I forget the name; about being a drinks company representative at that time, being stopped and encouraged to donate the contents of his boot to refresh the plod.
No. Alas. Basically. Where you from? (And numberplates were a pretty big tell in those days). Turn around. You aren't free to travel around the country. Regardless of your intentions. Quite stunning it has been erased from the collective memory. Was just a tad more intrusive than having to wear a mask in Asda. And cheered to the rafters by the Right.
The police behaved pretty disgracefully during the miner's strike. No reason to give them even more powers now.
I really hope this Bill dies a death. Having another leader but keeping the same bad laws is - to me - no better than putting lipstick on a pig. It's still a pig.
Maybe one or two of you will read the header. The stuff in the Bill may be dull compared to the No 10 comedy act but it is important.
Sigh......
Anecdote Alert.
When my son was diagnosed on the autistic spectrum aged around 8 years old, my wife asked the consultant for a single piece of advice that we should take away from the diagnosis. His advice was never ever allow him to be interviewed by the police, particularly under caution, without legal representation, which was rather telling. He quoted Stefan Kishko.
When I was very, very young, during the Miner's strike, I was a Sales Rep for Courage the Brewers. I called mainly at Co-ops and off-licences in West Norfolk, Cambridgeshire, South Lincs. and Rutland. Rutland was covered by the Leicestershire Constabulary area, and West Leicestershire had a number of mines. On crossing into Rutland on one occasion I was stopped by Officers from the Met Police (yes the Met Police). They cleaned me out of the cases of samples I had in the boot- no point arguing I thought. I even had to help load the beer into their bus from my car. A year or two later I went to a wedding in Bolton. The groom worked for Greater Manchester Police and I regaled my story. He told me his. He said he made a fortune in overtime patroling the Warwickshire coalfields. On one occasion they were staying in a hostel recently vacated by the Met. He said somewhere along the M1 the Met bus was stopped and the hostel tellys were recovered.
I have told my children to be very polite to, but very cautious of the police. My youngest son detests them. I would limit rather than increase their power!
I can't agree more. I remember seeing pictures of the police in the miners strike waving wads of cash in the faces of the picket line, their overtime money.
Never help the police with their enquiries. Remember, the only reason they ask you questions is because they don't have the evidence to charge until you give it to them.
Never ever talk to the police without a lawyer present.
Not sure these proposals are all that radical. As a Wiganer I distinctly remember being subject to random stop and search on suspicion of intention to attend a protest based purely on my starting location. Then we were told which parts of the country we could and couldn't travel to. But that was during the Strike and we weren't middle class. I don't remember a great deal of libertarian outrage at the time.
Not sure how proletarian one had to be. I remember one of the better political reminiscences on PB - alas I forget the name; about being a drinks company representative at that time, being stopped and encouraged to donate the contents of his boot to refresh the plod.
No. Alas. Basically. Where you from? (And numberplates were a pretty big tell in those days). Turn around. You aren't free to travel around the country. Regardless of your intentions. Quite stunning it has been erased from the collective memory. Was just a tad more intrusive than having to wear a mask in Asda. And cheered to the rafters by the Right.
The police behaved pretty disgracefully during the miner's strike. No reason to give them even more powers now.
I really hope this Bill dies a death. Having another leader but keeping the same bad laws is - to me - no better than putting lipstick on a pig. It's still a pig.
Maybe one or two of you will read the header. The stuff in the Bill may be dull compared to the No 10 comedy act but it is important.
Sigh......
Anecdote Alert.
When my son was diagnosed on the autistic spectrum aged around 8 years old, my wife asked the consultant for a single piece of advice that we should take away from the diagnosis. His advice was never ever allow him to be interviewed by the police, particularly under caution, without legal representation, which was rather telling. He quoted Stefan Kishko.
When I was very, very young, during the Miner's strike, I was a Sales Rep for Courage the Brewers. I called mainly at Co-ops and off-licences in West Norfolk, Cambridgeshire, South Lincs. and Rutland. Rutland was covered by the Leicestershire Constabulary area, and West Leicestershire had a number of mines. On crossing into Rutland on one occasion I was stopped by Officers from the Met Police (yes the Met Police). They cleaned me out of the cases of samples I had in the boot- no point arguing I thought. I even had to help load the beer into their bus from my car. A year or two later I went to a wedding in Bolton. The groom worked for Greater Manchester Police and I regaled my story. He told me his. He said he made a fortune in overtime patroling the Warwickshire coalfields. On one occasion they were staying in a hostel recently vacated by the Met. He said somewhere along the M1 the Met bus was stopped and the hostel tellys were recovered.
I have told my children to be very polite to, but very cautious of the police. My youngest son detests them. I would limit rather than increase their power!
I can't agree more. I remember seeing pictures of the police in the miners strike waving wads of cash in the faces of the picket line, their overtime money.
Never help the police with their enquiries. Remember, the only reason they ask you questions is because they don't have the evidence to charge until you give it to them.
Never ever accept a caution.
Why not?
They show up on an enhanced DBS check despite no evidence of guilt of any crime. Police cautions are a way for the police to label people as "wrong 'uns" officially. It's better to go to court and clear your name than accept a police caution.
Thanks! I doubt I'll ever be offered one but good to know.
Not sure these proposals are all that radical. As a Wiganer I distinctly remember being subject to random stop and search on suspicion of intention to attend a protest based purely on my starting location. Then we were told which parts of the country we could and couldn't travel to. But that was during the Strike and we weren't middle class. I don't remember a great deal of libertarian outrage at the time.
Not sure how proletarian one had to be. I remember one of the better political reminiscences on PB - alas I forget the name; about being a drinks company representative at that time, being stopped and encouraged to donate the contents of his boot to refresh the plod.
No. Alas. Basically. Where you from? (And numberplates were a pretty big tell in those days). Turn around. You aren't free to travel around the country. Regardless of your intentions. Quite stunning it has been erased from the collective memory. Was just a tad more intrusive than having to wear a mask in Asda. And cheered to the rafters by the Right.
The police behaved pretty disgracefully during the miner's strike. No reason to give them even more powers now.
I really hope this Bill dies a death. Having another leader but keeping the same bad laws is - to me - no better than putting lipstick on a pig. It's still a pig.
Maybe one or two of you will read the header. The stuff in the Bill may be dull compared to the No 10 comedy act but it is important.
Sigh......
Anecdote Alert.
When my son was diagnosed on the autistic spectrum aged around 8 years old, my wife asked the consultant for a single piece of advice that we should take away from the diagnosis. His advice was never ever allow him to be interviewed by the police, particularly under caution, without legal representation, which was rather telling. He quoted Stefan Kishko.
When I was very, very young, during the Miner's strike, I was a Sales Rep for Courage the Brewers. I called mainly at Co-ops and off-licences in West Norfolk, Cambridgeshire, South Lincs. and Rutland. Rutland was covered by the Leicestershire Constabulary area, and West Leicestershire had a number of mines. On crossing into Rutland on one occasion I was stopped by Officers from the Met Police (yes the Met Police). They cleaned me out of the cases of samples I had in the boot- no point arguing I thought. I even had to help load the beer into their bus from my car. A year or two later I went to a wedding in Bolton. The groom worked for Greater Manchester Police and I regaled my story. He told me his. He said he made a fortune in overtime patroling the Warwickshire coalfields. On one occasion they were staying in a hostel recently vacated by the Met. He said somewhere along the M1 the Met bus was stopped and the hostel tellys were recovered.
I have told my children to be very polite to, but very cautious of the police. My youngest son detests them. I would limit rather than increase their power!
I can't agree more. I remember seeing pictures of the police in the miners strike waving wads of cash in the faces of the picket line, their overtime money.
Never help the police with their enquiries. Remember, the only reason they ask you questions is because they don't have the evidence to charge until you give it to them.
Never ever talk to the police without a lawyer present.
Never ever accept a caution.
My mother-in-law had a neighbour who was bat***t crazy and who kept writing letters to people accusing them of slighting her over weird stuff. One day two police officers turned up and told my incredulous mother-in-law that she had been reported for attempting to run over her neighbour's dogs and that they intended to caution her. She refused to accept a caution on the basis that the only evidence supplied was by the neighbour with no corroboration. She suggested that the Police were welcome to investigate further, and recommended that they contact a well known local judge who had also been on the receiving end of the neighbour who would provide information regarding the reliability (or lack of) of the her character. They left.
Not sure these proposals are all that radical. As a Wiganer I distinctly remember being subject to random stop and search on suspicion of intention to attend a protest based purely on my starting location. Then we were told which parts of the country we could and couldn't travel to. But that was during the Strike and we weren't middle class. I don't remember a great deal of libertarian outrage at the time.
Not sure how proletarian one had to be. I remember one of the better political reminiscences on PB - alas I forget the name; about being a drinks company representative at that time, being stopped and encouraged to donate the contents of his boot to refresh the plod.
No. Alas. Basically. Where you from? (And numberplates were a pretty big tell in those days). Turn around. You aren't free to travel around the country. Regardless of your intentions. Quite stunning it has been erased from the collective memory. Was just a tad more intrusive than having to wear a mask in Asda. And cheered to the rafters by the Right.
The police behaved pretty disgracefully during the miner's strike. No reason to give them even more powers now.
I really hope this Bill dies a death. Having another leader but keeping the same bad laws is - to me - no better than putting lipstick on a pig. It's still a pig.
Maybe one or two of you will read the header. The stuff in the Bill may be dull compared to the No 10 comedy act but it is important.
Sigh......
Anecdote Alert.
When my son was diagnosed on the autistic spectrum aged around 8 years old, my wife asked the consultant for a single piece of advice that we should take away from the diagnosis. His advice was never ever allow him to be interviewed by the police, particularly under caution, without legal representation, which was rather telling. He quoted Stefan Kishko.
When I was very, very young, during the Miner's strike, I was a Sales Rep for Courage the Brewers. I called mainly at Co-ops and off-licences in West Norfolk, Cambridgeshire, South Lincs. and Rutland. Rutland was covered by the Leicestershire Constabulary area, and West Leicestershire had a number of mines. On crossing into Rutland on one occasion I was stopped by Officers from the Met Police (yes the Met Police). They cleaned me out of the cases of samples I had in the boot- no point arguing I thought. I even had to help load the beer into their bus from my car. A year or two later I went to a wedding in Bolton. The groom worked for Greater Manchester Police and I regaled my story. He told me his. He said he made a fortune in overtime patroling the Warwickshire coalfields. On one occasion they were staying in a hostel recently vacated by the Met. He said somewhere along the M1 the Met bus was stopped and the hostel tellys were recovered.
I have told my children to be very polite to, but very cautious of the police. My youngest son detests them. I would limit rather than increase their power!
I can't agree more. I remember seeing pictures of the police in the miners strike waving wads of cash in the faces of the picket line, their overtime money.
Never help the police with their enquiries. Remember, the only reason they ask you questions is because they don't have the evidence to charge until you give it to them.
Although. My uncle was a regular Bobby. He made huge sums during the Strike, but struggled to reconcile the behaviour of many of his colleagues. He was a working class Wiganer, who joined the Police precisely to avoid having to go down t'pit. He collected for the Strike fund in his spare time. Wigan Police was a source of healthy donations. Many of his mates suffered. He took to drink, and died at an early age. Not all coppers are bastards.
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But loyalists say the PM is still safe.
#Newsnight https://bbc.in/33P4zaT https://twitter.com/BBCNewsnight/status/1483572966499794944/video/1
Plenty of Tories were loyal to Thatcher to the end in 1990, they still canvassed for Major in 1992
This Bill is an outrage. As is the UC cut. The farrago of impractical bollocks about refugees. 10 years for statue bothering. Millions in contracts for mates and donors.
I could go on and on and on.
But consensus is Sunak as PM and the Tory Party will be restored to its rightful place as true and proper ruler of the land.
Even though he voted happily for all this and more.
Unfortunately the government has screwed up the mechanics of the legislation. Quite an achievement when they've got a majority of 80.
Many liberty lovers would have applauded that but what if the consequence is the government introducing more draconian laws as a counter measure? Activists judges might actually be their own worst enemy in this. Of course I don't have any confidence in Patel who seems like a minister playing to the gallery in search of favourable tabloid headlines. But one has to understand why she has found such fertile territory.
The problem we have is that so far this century, each PM has been worse than the last. Goodness knows who comes next.
May- broken by the job
Cameron- broken by the referendum
Brown- broken by the job
Blair- left sort of on his own terms, but the job sent him mad
Major- broken and defeated
Thatcher- went mad, then her party deposed her
Callaghan was before my time; was his defeat dignified?
If not, we're back to Wilson.
Maybe the job of PM really is undoable, and destroys all who crave it.
But no party proposing this as legislation is fit to be in government.
And they did not screw up the mechanics. They deliberately introduced amendments at the last minute to avoid scrutiny.
No one who wants to live in a free country should support this bill, which reads like something Putin or Xi might produce.
https://twitter.com/eyespymp/status/1483552752106156036
Bizarre thing is @NadineDorries is upstairs https://twitter.com/William_Wragg/status/1483555049204854789
An MP tells me Boris Johnson is at the Carlton Club … where 2019 MPs are also congregating.
https://twitter.com/tamcohen/status/1483576764928565252
Nadine Dorries was addressing an Onward dinner.
Four 1922 members were having supper.
The Press arrived believing a plot was under way so everyone left by the backdoor. One MP: "It is a farce."
https://twitter.com/christopherhope/status/1483577383479394307
However as we are not a dictatorship ultimately it is to be expected most of our PMs are either forced out by the voters or their own parties in the end.
The trick is to step down before your shelf life has expired. Had Thatcher stepped down in 1989 after 10 years in power, she would have left office in triumph.
Blair managed to time his leaving for 2007 ie a year before the GFC which toppled Brown after the Brownites put pressure on him to go
I note you ignored my point about football hooligans, or the wider point about the need for legislation to stop a small number of people wrecking things, causing massive expense to the taxpayer and to private companies and citizens, stopping traffic, adding to pollution, and in some cases preventing ambulances taking ill people to hospital. Are you really cool with the law being totally impotent to deal with all of that?
...It is easy to look at some individual protest or protester one doesn’t like or agree with and say, of course, they should be stopped...
That was pretty well the entirety of the government's argument in the Lords. Intellectually and morally bankrupt.
I see that Bernard Hopeless Hough has resurfaced in the Lords, and unsurprisingly spoke in favour of the measures.
Why is it that failed leaders of the Met get enobled ?
These laws are so draconian that any freedom loving person should make them unenforceable.
The Times headline says they will remain but the story itself says it’s not decided whether this will be guidance or law.
Of course, if they want to maintain the law, they’ll need a new bill. Which means it will probably be guidance, which will be largely ignored in big cities, I should guess.
Astonishingly he is still supported by @HYUFD, @DavidL, @Sandpit and others.
When my son was diagnosed on the autistic spectrum aged around 8 years old, my wife asked the consultant for a single piece of advice that we should take away from the diagnosis. His advice was never ever allow him to be interviewed by the police, particularly under caution, without legal representation, which was rather telling. He quoted Stefan Kishko.
When I was very, very young, during the Miner's strike, I was a Sales Rep for Courage the Brewers. I called mainly at Co-ops and off-licences in West Norfolk, Cambridgeshire, South Lincs. and Rutland. Rutland was covered by the Leicestershire Constabulary area, and West Leicestershire had a number of mines. On crossing into Rutland on one occasion I was stopped by Officers from the Met Police (yes the Met Police). They cleaned me out of the cases of samples I had in the boot- no point arguing I thought. I even had to help load the beer into their bus from my car. A year or two later I went to a wedding in Bolton. The groom worked for Greater Manchester Police and I regaled my story. He told me his. He said he made a fortune in overtime patroling the Warwickshire coalfields. On one occasion they were staying in a hostel recently vacated by the Met. He said somewhere along the M1 the Met bus was stopped and the hostel tellys were recovered.
I have told my children to be very polite to, but very cautious of the police. My youngest son detests them. I would limit rather than increase their power!
This bill attempted to give an unacceptable level of discretion to police and Home Secretary to make those decisions without any real check.
The U.K. is really leading the way for once.
New York is still mid-wave and covid-hysterical, including various measures which seem to be *against* scientific best practice.
Pretty much impossible to drive east/west through London now.
And what is the explanation for granting them? I find it odd that, as I understand it, the injunction was against the group of climate activists. So what's to stop them changing their name as an organisation? Perhaps I just don't understand the law.
It’s very existence demonstrates there is a complete incoherence to “Boris-ism”.
It suits me, by the way, if he stays.
See the last 10 seconds here
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t4sELK-iEjQ
She managed to stay near the top of the Labour Party in opposition and government for 30 years
I hope he's exaggerating but if correct it's no wonder Putin would feel emboldened.
Never help the police with their enquiries. Remember, the only reason they ask you questions is because they don't have the evidence to charge until you give it to them.
And thanks RobD. for taking the p*** out of me by suggesting Mrs May was PM in December 2019. Much appreciated.
Some protesters have had legal action taken against them. Some have gone to jail.
Others have not - largely because the police have failed to enforce the powers they do have. In one case the police seemed to be joining in with the dancing of the protesters, possibly because they wanted to look cool or agreed with them. Who can say. But it demonstrates the problem - if your right to speak freely, to protest is dependant on whether a police force agrees with you or not, you are not free. You are dependant on whether you are flavour of the month with the authorities. Such arbitrariness is not the mark of a free society.
We have an unhappy combination in this country - laws which are not enforced, a police force which acts arbitrarily or illegally and which it is not safe to trust and politicians who rush to pass ever more dictatorial laws rather than enforcing those laws we do have and thinking carefully about how to balance the right to protest with other rights. Rather than genuine law and order we just have performative nonsense which is doomed to fail. It is the defining mark of this government and will outlive Boris's tenure as PM.
Never ever accept a caution.
There are existing laws to deal with this stuff, there's no reason to threaten the right to peaceful protest.
Hopefully the idiotic citizenship bill gets thrown out too. It's time for grown up government, I'm surprised that you think it's a good idea to hand the police the power to say which protests can and can't go ahead. As we saw in lockdown they ruthlessly shut down protests against their own actions in Clapham while allowing other protests to go ahead.
He took to drink, and died at an early age.
Not all coppers are bastards.
As others have said, there are already laws to stop hippies blocking motorways. Let us not create a new set of badly drafted laws that can and will be misused.
As for increasing the penalties? I’d have thought Bristol would have taught us a lesson. If juries consider the penalties too great, they will nullify.
Faced with putting fresh faced kids (who may have otherwise made a good contribution to society) in the slammer for six months, many jurors - rightly or wrongly - will consider an acquittal the lesser of two wrongs.