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New betting market – A CON vote lead before Jan 31st? – politicalbetting.com

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  • TimSTimS Posts: 12,984

    Off-topic, its already increasingly clear how difficult it is going to be to get "groupage" loads across the GB / EU border from Saturday. The GB new customs computer isn't ready so have to rely on the old system which they said from the start was utterly incapable of such a thing. We haven't built the Border Control Posts, or staffed them, and the few we have built in Kent are utterly inadequate.

    We have to start to impose these rules because there are a stack of countries ready to take us to the WTO for giving illegal preferential terms to the EU. But we aren't ready, and hauliers sensibly are saying "fuck that" at the prospect of having their vehicle stuck in Ashford over a weekend because one line on one page of one item of the thousands on their groupage load is wrong.

    I've already been told that the pallet load chilled imports we have been doing happily so far (as the GB authorities aren't checking) are now likely impossible. We need to be doing full loads which we can't as the business hasn't grown sufficiently and now won't do if we can't import.

    I expect we will get through this by simply dropping the 1st Jan / 1st April / 1st July implementation. Which isn't a long-term fix. Our border model doesn't work as drawn up...

    It’s going to be a big mess from next week. I doubt it will cut through to the headlines much because the story will probably not be traffic jams or shortages in supermarkets, but rather thousands of little frustrations, holdups and cost increases that will fall on small and mid sized importers.

    The way I see see the various Brexit changes since last January is a series of bureaucratic micro-aggressions against business. They all add up. It’s so utterly pointless. But good news for customs advisers.
  • NerysHughesNerysHughes Posts: 3,375

    I still question whether ventilators are the right thing to be tracking if Omicron does not impact the lungs in the same way.

    As for admissions, referring to incidental admissions as the get out clause feels awfully similar to what was said around Delta and also those that said we’d reached herd immunity in summer 2020.

    If Omicron is a respiratory disease that does not affect the lungs the there really is no reason to worry too much about it.

    The SA data is backing that up, the number of hospitalisations is tiny compared to Delta and in Guateng the number in hospital is now falling very quickly.

    https://www.nicd.ac.za/diseases-a-z-index/disease-index-covid-19/surveillance-reports/daily-hospital-surveillance-datcov-report/

  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 63,032
    edited December 2021
    Good morning

    I do detect a slight change in the media this morning where they seem to be indicating that NHS staff off with omicron is more of a problem than admissions and querying if HMG in England will follow the US in reducing isolation from 7 to 5 days. Of course Wales and Scotland are still on 10 days as they cannot concede England's health advisors have this right

    Furthermore the obsession with case numbers is misleading, as indeed are the admission numbers if the main reason for hospital admission is not covid/omicron but another health issue

    It is time that the public were given accurate information on the balance between the two and also on those admitted because of covid/ omicron how long is the average stay and just how many are seriously ill with omicron together with the age groups

    We deserve much better independent reliable information and may I suggest a much better standard of journalism that has been on display throughout the pandemic
  • darkagedarkage Posts: 5,398
    I'd need a lot of convincing to consent to the vaccination of my young son. The vaccinations don't stop transmission, only serious illness; I need hard evidence that vaccines prevent life threatening illness in kids given that we know that the vaccines themselves are not without risks, such as the AZ blood clotting issues which caused a significant number of deaths and everyone now seems to have been forgotten about. I wouldn't like to be the person that administered a vaccine that killed a 5 year old. Such an event, which could well happen, will destroy all confidence in vaccination and government messaging about vaccination. It would probably bring down the government.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,552
    edited December 2021
    Does anyone know what Keir Starmer's official policy is on having restrictions during the New Year period? Is he supporting Johnson, or is he with Sturgeon and Drakeford?
  • TazTaz Posts: 14,376
    Andy_JS said:

    Does anyone know what Keir Starmer's official policy is on having restrictions during the New Year period? Is he supporting Johnson, or is he with Sturgeon and Drakeford?

    He’s sitting on the fence waiting to see which way it goes after the event.
  • Eabhal posted upthread 'One of the best things about this country is how well travelled we all are, and how many guests we have from overseas.'

    Something which, with it's clampdown on school trips and fees for overseas students, this government seems to have set it's face against.

    Global Britain = no more groups of foreign students coming here to learn how great we are and thus be pro-Britain in the future. Huzzah!
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830
    Andy_JS said:

    Does anyone know what Keir Starmer's official policy is on having restrictions during the New Year period? Is he supporting Johnson, or is he with Sturgeon and Drakeford?

    Keeping quiet on the pretext of holidays if he has any sense. On past form it is highly likely he wants restrictions, but saying so wouldn't be popular
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,582
    edited December 2021
    Andy_JS said:

    Does anyone know what Keir Starmer's official policy is on having restrictions during the New Year period? Is he supporting Johnson, or is he with Sturgeon and Drakeford?

    Presumably waiting for some polling, or to see which way the headlines go.

    A quick scan suggests lots of stories about Scots and Welsh heading for Berwick, Newcastle, Carlisle, Bristol, Blackpool and Liverpool to see in 2022 - and lots of unhappy pub owners in the devolved administrations.
  • Heathener said:

    Bartholomew Roberts who presumably is Phillip Thompson is simply wrong to state that we are first (see my links below). We were quick on initial vaccines although Israel soon acted faster.

    We were very slow about boosters because Johnson did his usual dithering.

    We have been atrociously slow on child vaccinations.

    The UK's case rate and death rate has been pretty bad.

    And we're playing a risky game with cases at the moment simply because Johnson is too weak to stand up to the far right of his party.

    He will continue to pump the line (aka lie) that we're world beating but most people saw through his tricks some time ago.

    Doxxing is not cool and also, a pedant writes that "links below" is unhelpful because it depends which way the reader has sorted the posts, which, for added fun, is different by default on the Vanilla and pb interfaces. And while Boris might be running scared of his own shadow, is there any evidence it was the right who stopped the ditherer-in-chief?
  • Andy_JS said:

    Does anyone know what Keir Starmer's official policy is on having restrictions during the New Year period? Is he supporting Johnson, or is he with Sturgeon and Drakeford?

    As he is anonymous at present we can only assume labour's silence is because he needs to see who is right first
  • darkagedarkage Posts: 5,398

    Good morning

    I do detect a slight change in the media this morning where they seem to be indicating that NHS staff off with omicron is more of a problem than admissions and querying if HMG in England will follow the US in reducing isolation from 7 to 5 days. Of course Wales and Scotland are still on 10 days as they cannot concede England's health advisors have this right

    Furthermore the obsession with case numbers is misleading, as indeed are the admission numbers if the main reason for hospital admission is not covid/omicron but another health issue

    It is time that the public were given accurate information on the balance between the two and also on those admitted because of covid/ omicron how long is the average stay and just how many are seriously ill with omicron together with the age groups

    We deserve much better independent reliable information and may I suggest a much better standard of journalism that has been on display throughout the pandemic

    This type of scrutiny from the MSM is unlikely to happen any time soon, but the Fraser Nelson episode was interesting. It came about by JP Morgan running its own data projections. They (or others) could usefully turn their attention to the data on hospitalisations and NHS resourcing. Ultimately with Covid we are clearly in a prolonged period of mass panic and hysteria, and it is very difficult to work out what the truth is. I suppose you just need to keep your head down and hope it passes soon.

  • Taz said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Does anyone know what Keir Starmer's official policy is on having restrictions during the New Year period? Is he supporting Johnson, or is he with Sturgeon and Drakeford?

    He’s sitting on the fence waiting to see which way it goes after the event.
    Mr Hindsight
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,582
    darkage said:

    Good morning

    I do detect a slight change in the media this morning where they seem to be indicating that NHS staff off with omicron is more of a problem than admissions and querying if HMG in England will follow the US in reducing isolation from 7 to 5 days. Of course Wales and Scotland are still on 10 days as they cannot concede England's health advisors have this right

    Furthermore the obsession with case numbers is misleading, as indeed are the admission numbers if the main reason for hospital admission is not covid/omicron but another health issue

    It is time that the public were given accurate information on the balance between the two and also on those admitted because of covid/ omicron how long is the average stay and just how many are seriously ill with omicron together with the age groups

    We deserve much better independent reliable information and may I suggest a much better standard of journalism that has been on display throughout the pandemic

    This type of scrutiny from the MSM is unlikely to happen any time soon, but the Fraser Nelson episode was interesting. It came about by JP Morgan running its own data projections. They (or others) could usefully turn their attention to the data on hospitalisations and NHS resourcing. Ultimately with Covid we are clearly in a prolonged period of mass panic and hysteria, and it is very difficult to work out what the truth is. I suppose you just need to keep your head down and hope it passes soon.

    Fraser Nelson was a real turning point. Someone followed by a lot of senior Conservative politicians, asking questions that hadn’t previously been asked, of those providing the data to the government decision-makers.
  • Taz said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Does anyone know what Keir Starmer's official policy is on having restrictions during the New Year period? Is he supporting Johnson, or is he with Sturgeon and Drakeford?

    He’s sitting on the fence waiting to see which way it goes after the event.
    Mr Hindsight
    You’re back on the Johnson train again then? Your latest “doubt” lasted a whole day
  • eekeek Posts: 28,368
    edited December 2021

    Off-topic, its already increasingly clear how difficult it is going to be to get "groupage" loads across the GB / EU border from Saturday. The GB new customs computer isn't ready so have to rely on the old system which they said from the start was utterly incapable of such a thing. We haven't built the Border Control Posts, or staffed them, and the few we have built in Kent are utterly inadequate.

    We have to start to impose these rules because there are a stack of countries ready to take us to the WTO for giving illegal preferential terms to the EU. But we aren't ready, and hauliers sensibly are saying "fuck that" at the prospect of having their vehicle stuck in Ashford over a weekend because one line on one page of one item of the thousands on their groupage load is wrong.

    I've already been told that the pallet load chilled imports we have been doing happily so far (as the GB authorities aren't checking) are now likely impossible. We need to be doing full loads which we can't as the business hasn't grown sufficiently and now won't do if we can't import.

    I expect we will get through this by simply dropping the 1st Jan / 1st April / 1st July implementation. Which isn't a long-term fix. Our border model doesn't work as drawn up...

    Problem is we have to quietly drop it because as you say if dropping it was found out the WTO would be calling - or China will start exporting any old shite to us because we can hardly complain.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    TOPPING said:

    Regarding vaccinating children.

    As I understand it and as we are seeing now vaccines don't appear to be stopping people getting or passing on the virus.

    They do prevent serious illness, which children are overwhelmingly unlikely to experience with the virus.

    So what is the net benefit of vaccinating children.

    A stick to beat the government with
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 13,677

    Taz said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Does anyone know what Keir Starmer's official policy is on having restrictions during the New Year period? Is he supporting Johnson, or is he with Sturgeon and Drakeford?

    He’s sitting on the fence waiting to see which way it goes after the event.
    Mr Hindsight
    You’re back on the Johnson train again then? Your latest “doubt” lasted a whole day
    Would "prefer" the Goldman Sachs Elf over Johnson but would still vote for Johnson over Starmer I believe is the nuanced position upon which we've landed.
  • NerysHughesNerysHughes Posts: 3,375
    Sandpit said:

    darkage said:

    Good morning

    I do detect a slight change in the media this morning where they seem to be indicating that NHS staff off with omicron is more of a problem than admissions and querying if HMG in England will follow the US in reducing isolation from 7 to 5 days. Of course Wales and Scotland are still on 10 days as they cannot concede England's health advisors have this right

    Furthermore the obsession with case numbers is misleading, as indeed are the admission numbers if the main reason for hospital admission is not covid/omicron but another health issue

    It is time that the public were given accurate information on the balance between the two and also on those admitted because of covid/ omicron how long is the average stay and just how many are seriously ill with omicron together with the age groups

    We deserve much better independent reliable information and may I suggest a much better standard of journalism that has been on display throughout the pandemic

    This type of scrutiny from the MSM is unlikely to happen any time soon, but the Fraser Nelson episode was interesting. It came about by JP Morgan running its own data projections. They (or others) could usefully turn their attention to the data on hospitalisations and NHS resourcing. Ultimately with Covid we are clearly in a prolonged period of mass panic and hysteria, and it is very difficult to work out what the truth is. I suppose you just need to keep your head down and hope it passes soon.

    Fraser Nelson was a real turning point. Someone followed by a lot of senior Conservative politicians, asking questions that hadn’t previously been asked, of those providing the data to the government decision-makers.
    Without the SA data Im pretty sure that we would be in lockdown now.

    Whitty & Co were heavily pushing for one and were even trying to dismiss the SA data as not relevant.
  • Sandpit said:

    darkage said:

    Good morning

    I do detect a slight change in the media this morning where they seem to be indicating that NHS staff off with omicron is more of a problem than admissions and querying if HMG in England will follow the US in reducing isolation from 7 to 5 days. Of course Wales and Scotland are still on 10 days as they cannot concede England's health advisors have this right

    Furthermore the obsession with case numbers is misleading, as indeed are the admission numbers if the main reason for hospital admission is not covid/omicron but another health issue

    It is time that the public were given accurate information on the balance between the two and also on those admitted because of covid/ omicron how long is the average stay and just how many are seriously ill with omicron together with the age groups

    We deserve much better independent reliable information and may I suggest a much better standard of journalism that has been on display throughout the pandemic

    This type of scrutiny from the MSM is unlikely to happen any time soon, but the Fraser Nelson episode was interesting. It came about by JP Morgan running its own data projections. They (or others) could usefully turn their attention to the data on hospitalisations and NHS resourcing. Ultimately with Covid we are clearly in a prolonged period of mass panic and hysteria, and it is very difficult to work out what the truth is. I suppose you just need to keep your head down and hope it passes soon.

    Fraser Nelson was a real turning point. Someone followed by a lot of senior Conservative politicians, asking questions that hadn’t previously been asked, of those providing the data to the government decision-makers.
    It was a turning point but whether Nelson or the Tory CRG understand what is being modelled is another question, though perhaps moot.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    moonshine said:

    TOPPING said:

    Regarding vaccinating children.

    As I understand it and as we are seeing now vaccines don't appear to be stopping people getting or passing on the virus.

    They do prevent serious illness, which children are overwhelmingly unlikely to experience with the virus.

    So what is the net benefit of vaccinating children.

    Overwhelmingly unlikely is not the same as don’t. It’s an equation of whether the population risk from the vaccine is greater or lesser than the virus. One reason I think they should, is because not every child has immunity from exposure. And who’s to say another variant doesn’t pop along that causes more serious problems for children.
    The problem is that you have that marginal theoretical gain and need to offset that against (a) a known rate of site specific and other side effects; and (b) long term unknown impact on the autoimmune system from MRNA based vaccines
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    I still question whether ventilators are the right thing to be tracking if Omicron does not impact the lungs in the same way.

    As for admissions, referring to incidental admissions as the get out clause feels awfully similar to what was said around Delta and also those that said we’d reached herd immunity in summer 2020.

    How will Omicron cause death without impacting the lungs? That’s effectively what you are tracking.
  • eekeek Posts: 28,368

    moonshine said:

    I still question whether ventilators are the right thing to be tracking if Omicron does not impact the lungs in the same way.

    As for admissions, referring to incidental admissions as the get out clause feels awfully similar to what was said around Delta and also those that said we’d reached herd immunity in summer 2020.

    You are right, given the typical symptom set for omicron so far in this country, we should track sales of lozenges instead.
    This feels eerily similar to what was said initially about the Wuhan variant. I just hope you are right and I am wrong
    Someone pointed out elsewhere yesterday that for most people Polio was a mild disease, few days of diarrhoea and that was it.

    The problem wasn't with the 99.5% of people who caught Polio but the 0.5% who caught "Long" Polio. And we don't know what long or even medium term Omicron looks like.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 63,032
    edited December 2021

    Taz said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Does anyone know what Keir Starmer's official policy is on having restrictions during the New Year period? Is he supporting Johnson, or is he with Sturgeon and Drakeford?

    He’s sitting on the fence waiting to see which way it goes after the event.
    Mr Hindsight
    You’re back on the Johnson train again then? Your latest “doubt” lasted a whole day
    I am a conservative who seeks the end of his premiership

    I am also someone who backs HMG and utterly rejects Drakeford's Corbyn style tribute act which sees pubs and clubs in Wrexham watching in despair as their business evaporates by the bus full to nearby Chester

    We also learn overnight Drakeford has banned the words 'Brexit' and Her Majesty's Government ( HMG) adding to criminalising of going into the office as well as park runs

    You claim to be a Starmer fanbois but at the same time praise the Corbyn style Drakeford.

    You cannot have it both ways

  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    moonshine said:

    TOPPING said:

    moonshine said:

    TOPPING said:

    Regarding vaccinating children.

    As I understand it and as we are seeing now vaccines don't appear to be stopping people getting or passing on the virus.

    They do prevent serious illness, which children are overwhelmingly unlikely to experience with the virus.

    So what is the net benefit of vaccinating children.

    Overwhelmingly unlikely is not the same as don’t. It’s an equation of whether the population risk from the vaccine is greater or lesser than the virus. One reason I think they should, is because not every child has immunity from exposure. And who’s to say another variant doesn’t pop along that causes more serious problems for children.
    So "just in case". Seems a bold move to vaccinate people who are overwhelmingly unlikely to be seriously ill from the virus for this reason.
    Many places have long ago decided the balance of risk lies with vaccination, without considering my just in case.
    Balance of risk varies with different age groups
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    I believe Scotland data will be out today.
  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 8,647
    Charles said:

    I still question whether ventilators are the right thing to be tracking if Omicron does not impact the lungs in the same way.

    As for admissions, referring to incidental admissions as the get out clause feels awfully similar to what was said around Delta and also those that said we’d reached herd immunity in summer 2020.

    How will Omicron cause death without impacting the lungs? That’s effectively what you are tracking.
    Foxy pointed out last night that other serious symptoms can occur independently of lung issues.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 18,355
    moonshine said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Countries that have been pursuing a zero covid policy are going to encounter problems when the omicron variant arrives, assuming they continue to insist on a zero covid policy.

    There’s been the odd post about China in the last week but not much. Does no one else think that’s going to be the major story of early 2022?

    The industrial disinfecting of city streets and air in Xian was so odd. We all know fresh air and surfaces are no risk, so why are they doing it? Bart said it was a good way of keeping people indoors. And that would be true in a country with a population that regularly laughs off what their government tell them to do. But a bit redundant in a city that already has tanks on the streets.

    Feels to me like the Party knows it has now probably lost control and they needed a highly visual meme for social media so that a) people in the rest of the country would become afraid again, b) no one could question they had not done everything possible.

    Which leaves us with two questions of note.
    1) by how much is omicron intrinsically less virulent than other strains?
    2) what protection against serious disease from omicron do their Mickey Mouse vaccines confer?

    China might be lucky and chart a safe passage through omicron’s choppy waters. But if it’s unlucky, we’re going to see a lengthy national lockdown (in the extreme sense of the word), and potentially scenes not dissimilar to Wuhan in multiple places at once.

    While the leadership deserve everything coming to them, the poor fuckers that live under them do not. So a troubling month ahead while we see which way it goes. Not least for what it might do to global markets, demand and inflation if it leads to the day of reckoning in their financial system.
    My understanding is that the current outbreak in Xian is Delta, so I expect them to be able to bring that under some measure of control, as they've just about managed to do with Delta outbreaks elsewhere.

    I do think that when Omicron reaches China it is going to cause big issues, most directly for us in disrupting industrial production, which will compound our inflation problems, and probably create some severe shortages for a variety of goods.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    Taz said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Does anyone know what Keir Starmer's official policy is on having restrictions during the New Year period? Is he supporting Johnson, or is he with Sturgeon and Drakeford?

    He’s sitting on the fence waiting to see which way it goes after the event.
    Mr Hindsight
    He’s been cashiered?
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 17,405

    Taz said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Does anyone know what Keir Starmer's official policy is on having restrictions during the New Year period? Is he supporting Johnson, or is he with Sturgeon and Drakeford?

    He’s sitting on the fence waiting to see which way it goes after the event.
    Mr Hindsight
    You’re back on the Johnson train again then? Your latest “doubt” lasted a whole day
    Come on horse, it’s possible to criticise two party leaders at the same time...
    For what’s it’s worth Johnson needs to be gone ASAP for the country’s sake, but for Labour you probably want him still in No 10. Starmer has always sided on the cautious side through the pandemic. It’s politically easy to do as there is no cost (to him) in calling for more restrictions, especially with a terrified nation who quite likes restrictions (especially on other people). Some of the things he has called for have been wrong, in my view. Circuit-breakers are useless, as shown in Wales. If you need to get cases down you need to go the whole hog.
    Other issues I’d say he is right. It’s too easy for well off people to wfh and isolate etc, without appreciating that many of the less well off can’t easily do the same. If we are claiming measures are being taken for the common good then not helping everyone isolate who needs too is crazy.
    We do not have a ‘winner’ yet over omicron. It could still turn very messy in England, and the more cautious parts of the U.K. may end with a better result. Or omicron could be a paper tiger and the English approach will have worked.
    We don’t know yet, but will do soon(ish). I note that labour has shifted its approach now.

  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830
    Charles said:

    I still question whether ventilators are the right thing to be tracking if Omicron does not impact the lungs in the same way.

    As for admissions, referring to incidental admissions as the get out clause feels awfully similar to what was said around Delta and also those that said we’d reached herd immunity in summer 2020.

    How will Omicron cause death without impacting the lungs? That’s effectively what you are tracking.
    It impacts lungs much less, but not not at all. It may be able to prod your immune system into a cytokine storm. And if people are old/fcked up enough they can even die of the common cold
  • Taz said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Does anyone know what Keir Starmer's official policy is on having restrictions during the New Year period? Is he supporting Johnson, or is he with Sturgeon and Drakeford?

    He’s sitting on the fence waiting to see which way it goes after the event.
    Mr Hindsight
    You’re back on the Johnson train again then? Your latest “doubt” lasted a whole day
    I am a conservative who seeks the end of his premiership

    I am also someone who backs HMG and utterly rejects Drakeford's Corbyn style tribute act which sees pubs and clubs in Wrexham watching in despair as their business evaporates by the bus full to nearby Chester

    We also learn overnight Drakeford has banned the words 'Brexit' and Her Majesty's Government ( HMG) adding to criminalising of going into the office as well as park runs

    You claim to be a Starmer fanbois but at the same time praise the Corbyn style Drakeford.

    You cannot have it both ways

    Have you given up on the ‘Drakefool’ thing? Shame, it was hilarious.
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 17,405

    Sandpit said:

    darkage said:

    Good morning

    I do detect a slight change in the media this morning where they seem to be indicating that NHS staff off with omicron is more of a problem than admissions and querying if HMG in England will follow the US in reducing isolation from 7 to 5 days. Of course Wales and Scotland are still on 10 days as they cannot concede England's health advisors have this right

    Furthermore the obsession with case numbers is misleading, as indeed are the admission numbers if the main reason for hospital admission is not covid/omicron but another health issue

    It is time that the public were given accurate information on the balance between the two and also on those admitted because of covid/ omicron how long is the average stay and just how many are seriously ill with omicron together with the age groups

    We deserve much better independent reliable information and may I suggest a much better standard of journalism that has been on display throughout the pandemic

    This type of scrutiny from the MSM is unlikely to happen any time soon, but the Fraser Nelson episode was interesting. It came about by JP Morgan running its own data projections. They (or others) could usefully turn their attention to the data on hospitalisations and NHS resourcing. Ultimately with Covid we are clearly in a prolonged period of mass panic and hysteria, and it is very difficult to work out what the truth is. I suppose you just need to keep your head down and hope it passes soon.

    Fraser Nelson was a real turning point. Someone followed by a lot of senior Conservative politicians, asking questions that hadn’t previously been asked, of those providing the data to the government decision-makers.
    It was a turning point but whether Nelson or the Tory CRG understand what is being modelled is another question, though perhaps moot.
    I’m still not entirely sure what was going on. I’d suggest that a decent range of modelling was being done, but selected models were getting to cabinet, and those didn’t include the actual best case scenarios. I don’t know why or who, but I suspect the civil service of trying to steer things...
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    Eabhal said:

    Charles said:

    I still question whether ventilators are the right thing to be tracking if Omicron does not impact the lungs in the same way.

    As for admissions, referring to incidental admissions as the get out clause feels awfully similar to what was said around Delta and also those that said we’d reached herd immunity in summer 2020.

    How will Omicron cause death without impacting the lungs? That’s effectively what you are tracking.
    Foxy pointed out last night that other serious symptoms can occur independently of lung issues.
    I believe there can be other proximate causes of death (@Foxy ‘s point) - my father ultimately died of renal failure / multiple organ failure - but the data I’ve seen suggest these are coincident with rather than independent of respiratory issues.
  • Drakeford will surely be resigning any day now, just as Starmer will be.

    *Checks notes*

    Labour 9 points ahead and Drakeford polling the best for Welsh Labour since 2001.
  • Taz said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Does anyone know what Keir Starmer's official policy is on having restrictions during the New Year period? Is he supporting Johnson, or is he with Sturgeon and Drakeford?

    He’s sitting on the fence waiting to see which way it goes after the event.
    Mr Hindsight
    You’re back on the Johnson train again then? Your latest “doubt” lasted a whole day
    I am a conservative who seeks the end of his premiership

    I am also someone who backs HMG and utterly rejects Drakeford's Corbyn style tribute act which sees pubs and clubs in Wrexham watching in despair as their business evaporates by the bus full to nearby Chester

    We also learn overnight Drakeford has banned the words 'Brexit' and Her Majesty's Government ( HMG) adding to criminalising of going into the office as well as park runs

    You claim to be a Starmer fanbois but at the same time praise the Corbyn style Drakeford.

    You cannot have it both ways

    Have you given up on the ‘Drakefool’ thing? Shame, it was hilarious.
    Seems it is becoming more common especially amongst business owners and park run organisers
  • Sandpit said:

    darkage said:

    Good morning

    I do detect a slight change in the media this morning where they seem to be indicating that NHS staff off with omicron is more of a problem than admissions and querying if HMG in England will follow the US in reducing isolation from 7 to 5 days. Of course Wales and Scotland are still on 10 days as they cannot concede England's health advisors have this right

    Furthermore the obsession with case numbers is misleading, as indeed are the admission numbers if the main reason for hospital admission is not covid/omicron but another health issue

    It is time that the public were given accurate information on the balance between the two and also on those admitted because of covid/ omicron how long is the average stay and just how many are seriously ill with omicron together with the age groups

    We deserve much better independent reliable information and may I suggest a much better standard of journalism that has been on display throughout the pandemic

    This type of scrutiny from the MSM is unlikely to happen any time soon, but the Fraser Nelson episode was interesting. It came about by JP Morgan running its own data projections. They (or others) could usefully turn their attention to the data on hospitalisations and NHS resourcing. Ultimately with Covid we are clearly in a prolonged period of mass panic and hysteria, and it is very difficult to work out what the truth is. I suppose you just need to keep your head down and hope it passes soon.

    Fraser Nelson was a real turning point. Someone followed by a lot of senior Conservative politicians, asking questions that hadn’t previously been asked, of those providing the data to the government decision-makers.
    we are, of course, all aware that these were mostly questions needed to be asked from day 1.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 21,643
    Curious thread. Tories still trying to conjure up some party political advantage out of Omicron. Smells a little desperate, but perhaps understandable after the last few weeks. If they were wise they would shut up, try to govern and hope people forget that they party while others lock down.

  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,802
    Telegraph saying that incidental admissions rate is now around 80% of the daily announced figures, up from 40%. That's similar to what we heard from SA which was ~75% incidental admissions during their Omicron wave.

    Overall bed occupancy and ICU occupancy is steady or down. These two are the ones to watch.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,582

    Sandpit said:

    darkage said:

    Good morning

    I do detect a slight change in the media this morning where they seem to be indicating that NHS staff off with omicron is more of a problem than admissions and querying if HMG in England will follow the US in reducing isolation from 7 to 5 days. Of course Wales and Scotland are still on 10 days as they cannot concede England's health advisors have this right

    Furthermore the obsession with case numbers is misleading, as indeed are the admission numbers if the main reason for hospital admission is not covid/omicron but another health issue

    It is time that the public were given accurate information on the balance between the two and also on those admitted because of covid/ omicron how long is the average stay and just how many are seriously ill with omicron together with the age groups

    We deserve much better independent reliable information and may I suggest a much better standard of journalism that has been on display throughout the pandemic

    This type of scrutiny from the MSM is unlikely to happen any time soon, but the Fraser Nelson episode was interesting. It came about by JP Morgan running its own data projections. They (or others) could usefully turn their attention to the data on hospitalisations and NHS resourcing. Ultimately with Covid we are clearly in a prolonged period of mass panic and hysteria, and it is very difficult to work out what the truth is. I suppose you just need to keep your head down and hope it passes soon.

    Fraser Nelson was a real turning point. Someone followed by a lot of senior Conservative politicians, asking questions that hadn’t previously been asked, of those providing the data to the government decision-makers.
    we are, of course, all aware that these were mostly questions needed to be asked from day 1.
    I’d give everyone an awful lot of leeway on Day 1 of a novel virus outbreak.

    On Day 600, with a 90% vaccinated population - not so much.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,317
    Sandpit said:

    Foxy said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Omicron looks safeish with vaccination. 512 kids hospitalised on boxing day isn't great though, the JCVI should approve for all 5-11 >.>

    But JCVI are using a model that says that nearly no children will get COVID. Why is reality wrong, again?
    I suspect too many on the jcvi are very cautious about causing harm via vaccination, and some are still hung up on getting world vaccination done rather than more in the U.K. This is despite the abundance of vaccines now, so supply is surely not limited.
    One interesting thing is that vaccinated people also are not dying so fast of non-covid disease. Take that antivaxxers!

    https://twitter.com/foxinsoxuk/status/1475827926235062277?t=aBlC3Rbe_QiXyoOR3vbFzQ&s=19

    I think that I have said all along that European countries will be much of a muchness in terms of total outcomes once this is all over.

    I think there will be some variation, but you then have to start accounting for so many differing factors. Germany has done better, but certainly difficult to now call it a success.

    The real important questions are not really did this country do slightly better than another, its what worked and what didn't. Why did Germany do better than the UK for instance, we have some ideas in terms of how hospitals function / capacity, but were there other things? And what didn't work. And most importantly how to prepare best for the future.
    Yes, the primary task of the enquiry needs to be what worked and what didn’t. Sadly, I fear it will turn into a political exercise, with people motivated primarily by being seen to cover their arse, than to assist with preparing for the next pandemic.

    I would get someone with experience in the AAIB or RIAB to run it, rather than a judge.
    It will be years of waffling and end up as a whitewash. Best wishes to your brother and family, hope all goes well for them.
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 17,405
    MaxPB said:

    Telegraph saying that incidental admissions rate is now around 80% of the daily announced figures, up from 40%. That's similar to what we heard from SA which was ~75% incidental admissions during their Omicron wave.

    Overall bed occupancy and ICU occupancy is steady or down. These two are the ones to watch.

    So the South Africans aren’t a different breed of humans after all? Who’d of thunk it.
    It’s becoming clearer that the threat to healthcare in the next month is mainly staff illness/isolation, and not increased patients in icu.
  • CorrectHorseBatteryCorrectHorseBattery Posts: 21,436
    edited December 2021
    Jonathan said:

    Curious thread. Tories still trying to conjure up some party political advantage out of Omicron. Smells a little desperate, but perhaps understandable after the last few weeks. If they were wise they would shut up, try to govern and hope people forget that they party while others lock down.

    It's a bunch of fanboys accusing other people of being fanboys whilst upvoting each other around how good the Tories are at handling the pandemic and how bad Welsh Labour is.

    It's an odd thing to see, because it's exactly the approach Labour took in GE19. It can't be us who is the problem, it must be the voters that are wrong!

    There seems to be no effort at all to learn why Welsh Labour are doing so well in Wales, instead just attacking Drakeford and telling us how rubbish he is. But the voters seem to disagree, with the latest MRP seeing the Tories almost run out of Wales and Labour doing the best its done there since 2001.
  • MaxPB said:

    Telegraph saying that incidental admissions rate is now around 80% of the daily announced figures, up from 40%. That's similar to what we heard from SA which was ~75% incidental admissions during their Omicron wave.

    Overall bed occupancy and ICU occupancy is steady or down. These two are the ones to watch.

    So the South Africans aren’t a different breed of humans after all? Who’d of thunk it.
    It’s becoming clearer that the threat to healthcare in the next month is mainly staff illness/isolation, and not increased patients in icu.
    As I commented earlier it does seem as if the media are finally catching on
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 21,643
    edited December 2021

    Jonathan said:

    Curious thread. Tories still trying to conjure up some party political advantage out of Omicron. Smells a little desperate, but perhaps understandable after the last few weeks. If they were wise they would shut up, try to govern and hope people forget that they party while others lock down.

    It's a bunch of fanboys accusing other people of being fanboys whilst upvoting each other around how good the Tories are at handling the pandemic and how bad Welsh Labour is.

    It's an odd thing to see, because it's exactly the approach Labour took in GE19. It can't be us who is the problem, it must be the voters that are wrong!

    There seems to be no effort at all to learn why Welsh Labour are doing so well in Wales, instead just attacking Drakeford and telling us how rubbish he is. But the voters seem to disagree, with the latest MRP seeing the Tories almost run out of Wales and Labour doing the best its done there since 2001.
    It does seem like they’re in a bubble. Complaining about the mainstream media is a classic symptom.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,802

    MaxPB said:

    Telegraph saying that incidental admissions rate is now around 80% of the daily announced figures, up from 40%. That's similar to what we heard from SA which was ~75% incidental admissions during their Omicron wave.

    Overall bed occupancy and ICU occupancy is steady or down. These two are the ones to watch.

    So the South Africans aren’t a different breed of humans after all? Who’d of thunk it.
    It’s becoming clearer that the threat to healthcare in the next month is mainly staff illness/isolation, and not increased patients in icu.
    Yes, if might be time to let asymptomatic or those with very mild symptoms work the COVID wards to free up uninflected staff to work elsewhere.

    It's also time to let kids go to school infected and let parents judge whether their kids are too ill to go in as they do with every other type of illness. Teachers too should be released from isolation rules for asymptomatic and mild symptoms.

    By Easter we should get rid of isolation altogether, let people judge for themselves whether they are too ill to go to work/socialise.
  • TazTaz Posts: 14,376

    Drakeford will surely be resigning any day now, just as Starmer will be.

    *Checks notes*

    Labour 9 points ahead and Drakeford polling the best for Welsh Labour since 2001.

    It’s a marathon not a sprint. Johnson has great poll leads at times during the Pandemic. The Welsh govt and Scottish regime have not handled Covid well either but have benefitted from the focus of the negative press being the UK govt.

  • TazTaz Posts: 14,376
    Jonathan said:

    Curious thread. Tories still trying to conjure up some party political advantage out of Omicron. Smells a little desperate, but perhaps understandable after the last few weeks. If they were wise they would shut up, try to govern and hope people forget that they party while others lock down.

    Everything about this is politics. You could argue the welsh and Scottish governments are doing exactly the same with their approach to Omicron.
  • Anyone know where the FLSOJ is currently holed up? Curious lack of his reassuring tones in and on the media. There’s some twitter chat that he and Nut Nut are in Mustique but surely even he wouldn’t be that cretinously tin eared. Would he?
  • Jonathan said:

    Curious thread. Tories still trying to conjure up some party political advantage out of Omicron. Smells a little desperate, but perhaps understandable after the last few weeks. If they were wise they would shut up, try to govern and hope people forget that they party while others lock down.

    It's a bunch of fanboys accusing other people of being fanboys whilst upvoting each other around how good the Tories are at handling the pandemic and how bad Welsh Labour is.

    It's an odd thing to see, because it's exactly the approach Labour took in GE19. It can't be us who is the problem, it must be the voters that are wrong!

    There seems to be no effort at all to learn why Welsh Labour are doing so well in Wales, instead just attacking Drakeford and telling us how rubbish he is. But the voters seem to disagree, with the latest MRP seeing the Tories almost run out of Wales and Labour doing the best its done there since 2001.
    As explained to you several times yesterday Labour have huge support in the valleys and sadly in the most deprived parts of Wales which they have left neglected for decades

    Labour did not get a majority and needed a coalition with the Greens to govern

    I seek the end of Boris premiership and will do whatever I can to bring that about

    However, it remains the case I would not support a labour government whose answer to every problem is to spend billions without any idea how to pay for it
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,820
    Charles said:

    Eabhal said:

    Charles said:

    I still question whether ventilators are the right thing to be tracking if Omicron does not impact the lungs in the same way.

    As for admissions, referring to incidental admissions as the get out clause feels awfully similar to what was said around Delta and also those that said we’d reached herd immunity in summer 2020.

    How will Omicron cause death without impacting the lungs? That’s effectively what you are tracking.
    Foxy pointed out last night that other serious symptoms can occur independently of lung issues.
    I believe there can be other proximate causes of death (@Foxy ‘s point) - my father ultimately died of renal failure / multiple organ failure - but the data I’ve seen suggest these are coincident with rather than independent of respiratory issues.
    But surely they are expected to correlate quite well, as covid causes all those problems?
  • Taz said:

    Drakeford will surely be resigning any day now, just as Starmer will be.

    *Checks notes*

    Labour 9 points ahead and Drakeford polling the best for Welsh Labour since 2001.

    It’s a marathon not a sprint. Johnson has great poll leads at times during the Pandemic. The Welsh govt and Scottish regime have not handled Covid well either but have benefitted from the focus of the negative press being the UK govt.

    If you think that the media in Scotland have not been giving the ‘Scottish regime’ a negative press, I have a Boris bridge to sell you.
  • Sandpit said:

    darkage said:

    Good morning

    I do detect a slight change in the media this morning where they seem to be indicating that NHS staff off with omicron is more of a problem than admissions and querying if HMG in England will follow the US in reducing isolation from 7 to 5 days. Of course Wales and Scotland are still on 10 days as they cannot concede England's health advisors have this right

    Furthermore the obsession with case numbers is misleading, as indeed are the admission numbers if the main reason for hospital admission is not covid/omicron but another health issue

    It is time that the public were given accurate information on the balance between the two and also on those admitted because of covid/ omicron how long is the average stay and just how many are seriously ill with omicron together with the age groups

    We deserve much better independent reliable information and may I suggest a much better standard of journalism that has been on display throughout the pandemic

    This type of scrutiny from the MSM is unlikely to happen any time soon, but the Fraser Nelson episode was interesting. It came about by JP Morgan running its own data projections. They (or others) could usefully turn their attention to the data on hospitalisations and NHS resourcing. Ultimately with Covid we are clearly in a prolonged period of mass panic and hysteria, and it is very difficult to work out what the truth is. I suppose you just need to keep your head down and hope it passes soon.

    Fraser Nelson was a real turning point. Someone followed by a lot of senior Conservative politicians, asking questions that hadn’t previously been asked, of those providing the data to the government decision-makers.
    It was a turning point but whether Nelson or the Tory CRG understand what is being modelled is another question, though perhaps moot.
    I’m still not entirely sure what was going on. I’d suggest that a decent range of modelling was being done, but selected models were getting to cabinet, and those didn’t include the actual best case scenarios. I don’t know why or who, but I suspect the civil service of trying to steer things...
    It might also be that people's eyes glaze over when confronted with numbers. There is a commonly held view that graphs are ideal for displaying quantitative information (Tufte etc) but my experience is of managers and indeed senior civil servants asking for "top 10" tables rather than graphs. We've seen it on pb as well, with @Malmesbury's graphs being ignored till someone finds the same information in a tweet.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 21,643
    Taz said:

    Jonathan said:

    Curious thread. Tories still trying to conjure up some party political advantage out of Omicron. Smells a little desperate, but perhaps understandable after the last few weeks. If they were wise they would shut up, try to govern and hope people forget that they party while others lock down.

    Everything about this is politics. You could argue the welsh and Scottish governments are doing exactly the same with their approach to Omicron.
    I don’t think the devolved assemblies or for that matter half of the cabinet conduct a covid policy motivated by party poll numbers or achieving good press on Conservative home or in aid of leadership ambitions. On PB everything is seen through that lens. It’s weird.
  • NerysHughesNerysHughes Posts: 3,375

    MaxPB said:

    Telegraph saying that incidental admissions rate is now around 80% of the daily announced figures, up from 40%. That's similar to what we heard from SA which was ~75% incidental admissions during their Omicron wave.

    Overall bed occupancy and ICU occupancy is steady or down. These two are the ones to watch.

    So the South Africans aren’t a different breed of humans after all? Who’d of thunk it.
    It’s becoming clearer that the threat to healthcare in the next month is mainly staff illness/isolation, and not increased patients in icu.
    As I commented earlier it does seem as if the media are finally catching on
    Just a couple of weeks ago people were claiming on here that SA was better prepared for the Omicron wave than the UK was, and that we should rely on modelling rather than their real world data for the potential impact of Omicron.
  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 8,647
    edited December 2021
    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    Telegraph saying that incidental admissions rate is now around 80% of the daily announced figures, up from 40%. That's similar to what we heard from SA which was ~75% incidental admissions during their Omicron wave.

    Overall bed occupancy and ICU occupancy is steady or down. These two are the ones to watch.

    So the South Africans aren’t a different breed of humans after all? Who’d of thunk it.
    It’s becoming clearer that the threat to healthcare in the next month is mainly staff illness/isolation, and not increased patients in icu.
    Yes, if might be time to let asymptomatic or those with very mild symptoms work the COVID wards to free up uninflected staff to work elsewhere.

    It's also time to let kids go to school infected and let parents judge whether their kids are too ill to go in as they do with every other type of illness. Teachers too should be released from isolation rules for asymptomatic and mild symptoms.

    By Easter we should get rid of isolation altogether, let people judge for themselves whether they are too ill to go to work/socialise.
    Teachers unions will go mental. All the teachers calling in to the radio basically want zero-covid.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,911
    edited December 2021

    Anyone know where the FLSOJ is currently holed up? Curious lack of his reassuring tones in and on the media. There’s some twitter chat that he and Nut Nut are in Mustique but surely even he wouldn’t be that cretinously tin eared. Would he?

    There are no Covid restrictions in England now apart from vaxports for nightclubs and large events. There is no foreign travel ban either and the UK airline and travel industry desperately needs a boost.

    Even if he is it may not be as tin eared as you think. If Sturgeon or Drakeford did it however it would be given the extra restrictions they have imposed in Scotland and Wales. As Boris is pursuing a more libertarian approach in England however it would not now be hypocritical for him
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,820

    Taz said:

    Drakeford will surely be resigning any day now, just as Starmer will be.

    *Checks notes*

    Labour 9 points ahead and Drakeford polling the best for Welsh Labour since 2001.

    It’s a marathon not a sprint. Johnson has great poll leads at times during the Pandemic. The Welsh govt and Scottish regime have not handled Covid well either but have benefitted from the focus of the negative press being the UK govt.

    If you think that the media in Scotland have not been giving the ‘Scottish regime’ a negative press, I have a Boris bridge to sell you.
    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Curious thread. Tories still trying to conjure up some party political advantage out of Omicron. Smells a little desperate, but perhaps understandable after the last few weeks. If they were wise they would shut up, try to govern and hope people forget that they party while others lock down.

    It's a bunch of fanboys accusing other people of being fanboys whilst upvoting each other around how good the Tories are at handling the pandemic and how bad Welsh Labour is.

    It's an odd thing to see, because it's exactly the approach Labour took in GE19. It can't be us who is the problem, it must be the voters that are wrong!

    There seems to be no effort at all to learn why Welsh Labour are doing so well in Wales, instead just attacking Drakeford and telling us how rubbish he is. But the voters seem to disagree, with the latest MRP seeing the Tories almost run out of Wales and Labour doing the best its done there since 2001.
    It does seem like they’re in a bubble. Complaining about the mainstream media is a classic symptom.
    Just thinking that on PB it's usually the Unionists who complain about the Scottish media being supposedly pro-SNP government. This is odd as it is usually generally agreed by PB Unionists that the only pro-indy newspaper is the National, usually referred to slightingly, partly with some justice because of its rather threadbare design, but also as if the very idea of a pro-SNP newspaper is somehow against nature, like a three-legged budgie. Somethijng wrong with their collective logic.

    I do occasionally complain in the other vein but usually about the modern Scotsman and Herald/National stablemates not being a proper replacement to the middle of the road Scotsman and Herald of old. Which is at least a middle of thje road approach.
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 22,011

    Good morning one and all. Unseasonably mild. Mrs C is darkly forecasting that 'we'll pay for it in mid to late January', but if our visitors have made it home we won't mind too much.

    Not feeling too confident about the economic future myself, although I did my income tax completed yesterday, which cheered me somewhat.

    Hey OKC, best wishes to you both and hope you had a good Christmas
    Thank you Horse. Same to you. We are left with a Christmas mystery; a bag of presents went missing and still hasn't been found!
    How strange, they will surely turn up in the most unexpected of places
    Ebay?
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,631
    darkage said:

    I'd need a lot of convincing to consent to the vaccination of my young son. The vaccinations don't stop transmission, only serious illness; I need hard evidence that vaccines prevent life threatening illness in kids given that we know that the vaccines themselves are not without risks, such as the AZ blood clotting issues which caused a significant number of deaths and everyone now seems to have been forgotten about. I wouldn't like to be the person that administered a vaccine that killed a 5 year old. Such an event, which could well happen, will destroy all confidence in vaccination and government messaging about vaccination. It would probably bring down the government.

    In the USA more children are now dying of covid many weeks than childhood cancers. Neither are common of course.

  • geoffwgeoffw Posts: 8,712
    What a surprise - the profit motive eh! ;)

    Telegraph:

    Huge cargo ships carrying liquid gas that were destined for China have changed course and are now heading towards the UK as Europe remains trapped in a major supply crunch.

    While the Continent’s energy crisis and high prices have attracted ships away from other parts of the world, the new arrivals are now bringing prices down. Benchmark Dutch front-month gas fell for a fifth day yesterday, dropping as much as 9.2pc in Amsterdam.

    The UK gas price rocketed to a record 470p per therm last week, up from just 50p in April, but has since fallen to under 270p.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2021/12/28/cargo-ships-divert-gas-china-britain/
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,820

    Good morning one and all. Unseasonably mild. Mrs C is darkly forecasting that 'we'll pay for it in mid to late January', but if our visitors have made it home we won't mind too much.

    Not feeling too confident about the economic future myself, although I did my income tax completed yesterday, which cheered me somewhat.

    Hey OKC, best wishes to you both and hope you had a good Christmas
    Thank you Horse. Same to you. We are left with a Christmas mystery; a bag of presents went missing and still hasn't been found!
    How strange, they will surely turn up in the most unexpected of places
    Ebay?
    Left on a car roof or in the garden when loading up a car?
  • HYUFD said:

    Anyone know where the FLSOJ is currently holed up? Curious lack of his reassuring tones in and on the media. There’s some twitter chat that he and Nut Nut are in Mustique but surely even he wouldn’t be that cretinously tin eared. Would he?

    There are no restrictions in England apart from vaxports for nightclubs and large events. There is no foreign travel ban either and the UK airline and travel industry desperately needs a boost.

    Even if he is it may not be as tin eared as you think. If Sturgeon or Drakeford did it however it would be given the extra restrictions they have imposed in Scotland and Wales. As Boris is pursuing a more libertarian approach in England however it would not now be hypocritical for him
    Massive ‘he’s probably not being c*nty but even if he is it’s perfectly ok’ klaxon.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,820
    HYUFD said:

    Anyone know where the FLSOJ is currently holed up? Curious lack of his reassuring tones in and on the media. There’s some twitter chat that he and Nut Nut are in Mustique but surely even he wouldn’t be that cretinously tin eared. Would he?

    There are no Covid restrictions in England now apart from vaxports for nightclubs and large events. There is no foreign travel ban either and the UK airline and travel industry desperately needs a boost.

    Even if he is it may not be as tin eared as you think. If Sturgeon or Drakeford did it however it would be given the extra restrictions they have imposed in Scotland and Wales. As Boris is pursuing a more libertarian approach in England however it would not now be hypocritical for him
    If Mr Johnson is so proud of his approach and his support for the travel industry, why isn't he publicising this?
  • ...
    However, it remains the case I would not support a labour government whose answer to every problem is to spend billions without any idea how to pay for it

    You mean that they would be worse than a Conservative Govt whose answer to every problem has been to spend billions without any idea how to pay for it?
    The conservative government has faced the biggest crisis since the war and like governments worldwide wide have spent vast sums to ameliorate the worst effects

    Spending in a pandemic is not to be compared with normal times

    It should also be noted that all Labour have done throughout this crisis is demand billions more
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,582
    geoffw said:

    What a surprise - the profit motive eh! ;)

    Telegraph:

    Huge cargo ships carrying liquid gas that were destined for China have changed course and are now heading towards the UK as Europe remains trapped in a major supply crunch.

    While the Continent’s energy crisis and high prices have attracted ships away from other parts of the world, the new arrivals are now bringing prices down. Benchmark Dutch front-month gas fell for a fifth day yesterday, dropping as much as 9.2pc in Amsterdam.

    The UK gas price rocketed to a record 470p per therm last week, up from just 50p in April, but has since fallen to under 270p.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2021/12/28/cargo-ships-divert-gas-china-britain/

    Funny that.

    Also a useful exercise, in noting just how much gas can be got into Europe in the face of a Russian blockade.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,911
    edited December 2021
    President Biden and former President Obama pay tribute to former Senate leader Harry Reid who has passed away

    https://twitter.com/POTUS/status/1476034176524693504?s=20

    https://twitter.com/BarackObama/status/1476009363689123849?s=20
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,859

    Good morning one and all. Unseasonably mild. Mrs C is darkly forecasting that 'we'll pay for it in mid to late January', but if our visitors have made it home we won't mind too much.

    Not feeling too confident about the economic future myself, although I did my income tax completed yesterday, which cheered me somewhat.

    Hey OKC, best wishes to you both and hope you had a good Christmas
    Thank you Horse. Same to you. We are left with a Christmas mystery; a bag of presents went missing and still hasn't been found!
    You were specially selected to trial the new redistributive Santa, this year.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 21,643

    ...
    However, it remains the case I would not support a labour government whose answer to every problem is to spend billions without any idea how to pay for it

    You mean that they would be worse than a Conservative Govt whose answer to every problem has been to spend billions without any idea how to pay for it?
    The conservative government has faced the biggest crisis since the war and like governments worldwide wide have spent vast sums to ameliorate the worst effects

    Spending in a pandemic is not to be compared with normal times

    It should also be noted that all Labour have done throughout this crisis is demand billions more
    Nah. The Tories deserve exactly the same credit and leeway they gave Labour for managing the financial crisis.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,373
    edited December 2021
    Eabhal said:

    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    Telegraph saying that incidental admissions rate is now around 80% of the daily announced figures, up from 40%. That's similar to what we heard from SA which was ~75% incidental admissions during their Omicron wave.

    Overall bed occupancy and ICU occupancy is steady or down. These two are the ones to watch.

    So the South Africans aren’t a different breed of humans after all? Who’d of thunk it.
    It’s becoming clearer that the threat to healthcare in the next month is mainly staff illness/isolation, and not increased patients in icu.
    Yes, if might be time to let asymptomatic or those with very mild symptoms work the COVID wards to free up uninflected staff to work elsewhere.

    It's also time to let kids go to school infected and let parents judge whether their kids are too ill to go in as they do with every other type of illness. Teachers too should be released from isolation rules for asymptomatic and mild symptoms.

    By Easter we should get rid of isolation altogether, let people judge for themselves whether they are too ill to go to work/socialise.
    Teachers unions will go mental. All the teachers calling in to the radio basically want zero-covid.
    I wouldn't necessarily judge the whole profession by those who are obsessive enough to phone in to a radio show during the holidays.

    The unions already are mental on the subject, to the extent that I am looking to use my position as a senior officer in one of them to table a motion of no confidence in the general Secretary at next year's conference. The idiot still wants masks and are obsessed with them to the exclusion of more practical measures that might actually fecking work.

    I think the real problem, bluntly, is that we all know Omicron is going to go charging through schools. And actually, while it isn't as serious as Delta according to the information we have, it's still going to be far more disruptive than an ordinary cold, where you might have 3-4% off at any one time - this looks more like 10-12% could be off at any one time.

    That's even if you abandon the isolation requirements.

    Therefore, some questions: (1) how do we minimise disruption to Year 11 and 13 cohorts, who still have exams and many of whom have already been more buggered than a reluctant Turkish conscript due to the incompetence with which the government has arranged remote learning? (2) Who pays for the extra measures, especially supply teachers? One fifth of schools are technically bankrupt after last year already. They can't afford significant numbers of supply out of their own budgets. (3) Even if that can be resolved, where do supply teachers come from? There's already a shortage as many left during the lockdowns (due to no money) and are not coming back. Retired teachers are not going to be any help, as I have said before. (4) This means that either we abandon the testing regime altogether and act pretty much as you advocate, or we are accepting that some schools will have to move to what's called 'blended learning' I.e. some year groups taught at home for some days a week.

    And yet the government, in their infinite fucking stupidity, are actually ramping up testing.

    It's an unholy mess.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,424

    Good morning one and all. Unseasonably mild. Mrs C is darkly forecasting that 'we'll pay for it in mid to late January', but if our visitors have made it home we won't mind too much.

    Not feeling too confident about the economic future myself, although I did my income tax completed yesterday, which cheered me somewhat.

    Hey OKC, best wishes to you both and hope you had a good Christmas
    Thank you Horse. Same to you. We are left with a Christmas mystery; a bag of presents went missing and still hasn't been found!
    How strange, they will surely turn up in the most unexpected of places
    Ebay?
    Ha ha.
  • geoffwgeoffw Posts: 8,712
    edited December 2021
    Sandpit said:

    geoffw said:

    What a surprise - the profit motive eh! ;)

    Telegraph:

    Huge cargo ships carrying liquid gas that were destined for China have changed course and are now heading towards the UK as Europe remains trapped in a major supply crunch.

    While the Continent’s energy crisis and high prices have attracted ships away from other parts of the world, the new arrivals are now bringing prices down. Benchmark Dutch front-month gas fell for a fifth day yesterday, dropping as much as 9.2pc in Amsterdam.

    The UK gas price rocketed to a record 470p per therm last week, up from just 50p in April, but has since fallen to under 270p.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2021/12/28/cargo-ships-divert-gas-china-britain/

    Funny that.

    Also a useful exercise, in noting just how much gas can be got into Europe in the face of a Russian blockade.
    The article also says that Russian shipments of gas to the UK have increased significantly compared to last year. Profit works there too!
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,859
    Did the stream of PB’ers so keen to condemn ‘doxxing’ not stop to consider whether quoting and hence re-posting the original post would make things better or worse?
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,424
    IanB2 said:

    Good morning one and all. Unseasonably mild. Mrs C is darkly forecasting that 'we'll pay for it in mid to late January', but if our visitors have made it home we won't mind too much.

    Not feeling too confident about the economic future myself, although I did my income tax completed yesterday, which cheered me somewhat.

    Hey OKC, best wishes to you both and hope you had a good Christmas
    Thank you Horse. Same to you. We are left with a Christmas mystery; a bag of presents went missing and still hasn't been found!
    You were specially selected to trial the new redistributive Santa, this year.
    Suspect that while our car was being unloaded a passing yoof took his opportunity, but as it was in a cul-de-sac seems odd.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,188
    edited December 2021
    MaxPB said:

    Telegraph saying that incidental admissions rate is now around 80% of the daily announced figures, up from 40%. That's similar to what we heard from SA which was ~75% incidental admissions during their Omicron wave.

    Overall bed occupancy and ICU occupancy is steady or down. These two are the ones to watch.

    Either 25 or 80% sounds high frankly - say 3 million have Covid, you'd expect 3/67ths of the population being admitted to a hospital to have "incidental Covid" ?

    Indicates a large amount of transmission in hospitals ?

    25 to 80% doesn't sound positive to me, the virus isn't THAT prevalent
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    Carnyx said:

    Charles said:

    Eabhal said:

    Charles said:

    I still question whether ventilators are the right thing to be tracking if Omicron does not impact the lungs in the same way.

    As for admissions, referring to incidental admissions as the get out clause feels awfully similar to what was said around Delta and also those that said we’d reached herd immunity in summer 2020.

    How will Omicron cause death without impacting the lungs? That’s effectively what you are tracking.
    Foxy pointed out last night that other serious symptoms can occur independently of lung issues.
    I believe there can be other proximate causes of death (@Foxy ‘s point) - my father ultimately died of renal failure / multiple organ failure - but the data I’ve seen suggest these are coincident with rather than independent of respiratory issues.
    But surely they are expected to correlate quite well, as covid causes all those problems?
    They do

    The point was (IMV) ventilation is a worthwhile stat to track as most (if not all) COVID deaths involve ventilation regardless of the proximate cause of death
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830

    MaxPB said:

    Telegraph saying that incidental admissions rate is now around 80% of the daily announced figures, up from 40%. That's similar to what we heard from SA which was ~75% incidental admissions during their Omicron wave.

    Overall bed occupancy and ICU occupancy is steady or down. These two are the ones to watch.

    So the South Africans aren’t a different breed of humans after all? Who’d of thunk it.
    It’s becoming clearer that the threat to healthcare in the next month is mainly staff illness/isolation, and not increased patients in icu.
    As I commented earlier it does seem as if the media are finally catching on
    Just a couple of weeks ago people were claiming on here that SA was better prepared for the Omicron wave than the UK was, and that we should rely on modelling rather than their real world data for the potential impact of Omicron.
    No they weren't, they were saying that the SA data looked encouraging, but there might be differences which might be significant between their population and ours. So observe SA but also model, and await events here. You just didn't understand this point.

    Aristotle said that the function of intelligence is to observe and understand the differences between similar things. I wonder where that leaves you.
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 22,011
    Morning anecdote.

    Friends of brother in law had a big intergenerational Christmas get together. One member of the family brought Covid to the party. Now they've all got it.

    I note the short incubation period.

    Meanwhile, I have woken up with a headache. Let's see what this morning's LFT shows...
  • ...
    However, it remains the case I would not support a labour government whose answer to every problem is to spend billions without any idea how to pay for it

    You mean that they would be worse than a Conservative Govt whose answer to every problem has been to spend billions without any idea how to pay for it?
    The conservative government has faced the biggest crisis since the war and like governments worldwide wide have spent vast sums to ameliorate the worst effects

    Spending in a pandemic is not to be compared with normal times

    It should also be noted that all Labour have done throughout this crisis is demand billions more
    I am sure that if it were a Labour govt facing this "... biggest crisis since the war ..." then they would also be spending "... vast sums to ameliorate the worst effects ..." - and I have no doubt you would be criticising them for it!

    By all means criticise the Opposition for doing the wrong thing, but if all you are going to do is praise up your own side for doing what you criticise the other side for, then you just come across as daft or at worst, hypocritical.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,368
    edited December 2021
    HYUFD said:

    Anyone know where the FLSOJ is currently holed up? Curious lack of his reassuring tones in and on the media. There’s some twitter chat that he and Nut Nut are in Mustique but surely even he wouldn’t be that cretinously tin eared. Would he?

    There are no Covid restrictions in England now apart from vaxports for nightclubs and large events. There is no foreign travel ban either and the UK airline and travel industry desperately needs a boost.

    Even if he is it may not be as tin eared as you think. If Sturgeon or Drakeford did it however it would be given the extra restrictions they have imposed in Scotland and Wales. As Boris is pursuing a more libertarian approach in England however it would not now be hypocritical for him
    So are you suggesting it would be OK for Mr and Mrs Johnson to fly to Mustique on Government trade business, of course (assuming that is where they are) because he didn't impose any further sanctions before he returns on New Year's Day (perish the thought)? Although...kinda handy doncha think? A bit like Pakistan and Bangladesh, but not India being on an earlier red list.

    I am sure this can't be true...can it?
  • MrEdMrEd Posts: 5,578
    Eabhal said:

    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    Telegraph saying that incidental admissions rate is now around 80% of the daily announced figures, up from 40%. That's similar to what we heard from SA which was ~75% incidental admissions during their Omicron wave.

    Overall bed occupancy and ICU occupancy is steady or down. These two are the ones to watch.

    So the South Africans aren’t a different breed of humans after all? Who’d of thunk it.
    It’s becoming clearer that the threat to healthcare in the next month is mainly staff illness/isolation, and not increased patients in icu.
    Yes, if might be time to let asymptomatic or those with very mild symptoms work the COVID wards to free up uninflected staff to work elsewhere.

    It's also time to let kids go to school infected and let parents judge whether their kids are too ill to go in as they do with every other type of illness. Teachers too should be released from isolation rules for asymptomatic and mild symptoms.

    By Easter we should get rid of isolation altogether, let people judge for themselves whether they are too ill to go to work/socialise.
    Teachers unions will go mental. All the teachers calling in to the radio basically want zero-covid.
    Want zero-covid or more time off?
  • geoffwgeoffw Posts: 8,712
    Pulpstar said:

    MaxPB said:

    Telegraph saying that incidental admissions rate is now around 80% of the daily announced figures, up from 40%. That's similar to what we heard from SA which was ~75% incidental admissions during their Omicron wave.

    Overall bed occupancy and ICU occupancy is steady or down. These two are the ones to watch.

    Either 25 or 80% sounds high frankly - say 3 million have Covid, you'd expect 3/67ths of the population being admitted to a hospital to have "incidental Covid" ?

    Indicates a large amount of transmission in hospitals ?
    Isn't that a well known fact? An acquaintance of mine died of covid acquired in hospital. The Nightingales could have kept the covid patients separate from others.

  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 27,889
    edited December 2021

    Anyone know where the FLSOJ is currently holed up? Curious lack of his reassuring tones in and on the media. There’s some twitter chat that he and Nut Nut are in Mustique but surely even he wouldn’t be that cretinously tin eared. Would he?

    Boris does like his exotic holidays but the interesting thing is that if he has eschewed the traditional Chequers Christmas, that undermines the notion that a fondness for that country house will mean Boris (and Carrie) will be desperate to cling on to power.
  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 8,647
    Charles said:

    Carnyx said:

    Charles said:

    Eabhal said:

    Charles said:

    I still question whether ventilators are the right thing to be tracking if Omicron does not impact the lungs in the same way.

    As for admissions, referring to incidental admissions as the get out clause feels awfully similar to what was said around Delta and also those that said we’d reached herd immunity in summer 2020.

    How will Omicron cause death without impacting the lungs? That’s effectively what you are tracking.
    Foxy pointed out last night that other serious symptoms can occur independently of lung issues.
    I believe there can be other proximate causes of death (@Foxy ‘s point) - my father ultimately died of renal failure / multiple organ failure - but the data I’ve seen suggest these are coincident with rather than independent of respiratory issues.
    But surely they are expected to correlate quite well, as covid causes all those problems?
    They do

    The point was (IMV) ventilation is a worthwhile stat to track as most (if not all) COVID deaths involve ventilation regardless of the proximate cause of death
    This works if non-lung deaths correlate with lung-deaths. The question for Omi is whether this relationship still exists given what we know about it so far (upper respiratory).
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,552
    Canada is allowing health care employees who test positive to continue working since too many of them were testing positive, probably with the new variant.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,424
    ydoethur said:

    Eabhal said:

    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    Telegraph saying that incidental admissions rate is now around 80% of the daily announced figures, up from 40%. That's similar to what we heard from SA which was ~75% incidental admissions during their Omicron wave.

    Overall bed occupancy and ICU occupancy is steady or down. These two are the ones to watch.

    So the South Africans aren’t a different breed of humans after all? Who’d of thunk it.
    It’s becoming clearer that the threat to healthcare in the next month is mainly staff illness/isolation, and not increased patients in icu.
    Yes, if might be time to let asymptomatic or those with very mild symptoms work the COVID wards to free up uninflected staff to work elsewhere.

    It's also time to let kids go to school infected and let parents judge whether their kids are too ill to go in as they do with every other type of illness. Teachers too should be released from isolation rules for asymptomatic and mild symptoms.

    By Easter we should get rid of isolation altogether, let people judge for themselves whether they are too ill to go to work/socialise.
    Teachers unions will go mental. All the teachers calling in to the radio basically want zero-covid.
    I wouldn't necessarily judge the whole profession by those who are obsessive enough to phone in to a radio show during the holidays.

    The unions already are mental on the subject, to the extent that I am looking to use my position as a senior officer in one of them to table a motion of no confidence in the general Secretary at next year's conference. The idiot still wants masks and are obsessed with them to the exclusion of more practical measures that might actually fecking work.

    I think the real problem, bluntly, is that we all know Omicron is going to go charging through schools. And actually, while it isn't as serious as Delta according to the information we have, it's still going to be far more disruptive than an ordinary cold, where you might have 3-4% off at any one time - this looks more like 10-12% could be off at any one time.

    That's even if you abandon the isolation requirements.

    Therefore, some questions: (1) how do we minimise disruption to Year 11 and 13 cohorts, who still have exams and many of whom have already been more buggered than a reluctant Turkish conscript due to the incompetence with which the government has arranged remote learning? (2) Who pays for the extra measures, especially supply teachers? One fifth of schools are technically bankrupt after last year already. They can't afford significant numbers of supply out of their own budgets. (3) Even if that can be resolved, where do supply teachers come from? There's already a shortage as many left during the lockdowns (due to no money) and are not coming back. Retired teachers are not going to be any help, as I have said before. (4) This means that either we abandon the testing regime altogether and act pretty much as you advocate, or we are accepting that some schools will have to move to what's called 'blended learning' I.e. some year groups taught at home for some days a week.

    And yet the government, in their infinite fucking stupidity, are actually ramping up testing.

    It's an unholy mess.
    I'm very sorry for Years 11 & 13, and for those who are trying to teach and counsel them. Those two years are tough enough with all the normal pressures. All the 'you've got to do well well in your GCSE's/You need 3 A's to get to the Uni you want.'
    Then you might be off at a crucial moment.
    Don't envy them normally, but this and the last couple of years have been dreadful.
  • HYUFD said:

    Anyone know where the FLSOJ is currently holed up? Curious lack of his reassuring tones in and on the media. There’s some twitter chat that he and Nut Nut are in Mustique but surely even he wouldn’t be that cretinously tin eared. Would he?

    There are no Covid restrictions in England now apart from vaxports for nightclubs and large events. There is no foreign travel ban either and the UK airline and travel industry desperately needs a boost.

    Even if he is it may not be as tin eared as you think. If Sturgeon or Drakeford did it however it would be given the extra restrictions they have imposed in Scotland and Wales. As Boris is pursuing a more libertarian approach in England however it would not now be hypocritical for him
    So are you suggesting it would be OK for Mr and Mrs Johnson to fly to Mustique on Government trade business, of course (assuming that is where they are) because he didn't impose any further sanctions before he returns on New Year's Day (perish the thought)? Although...kinda handy doncha think? A bit like Pakistan and Bangladesh, but not India being on an earlier red list.

    I am sure this can't be true...can it?
    Apparently Boris is speaking later this morning, so I doubt even he is not stupid enough to be in Mustique
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 27,889
    edited December 2021
    IanB2 said:

    Did the stream of PB’ers so keen to condemn ‘doxxing’ not stop to consider whether quoting and hence re-posting the original post would make things better or worse?

    Yes. What's your point? Everyone knows who our two most doxxed PBs are so, ironically, doxxing those two is unnecessary as well as unpleasant.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,582

    HYUFD said:

    Anyone know where the FLSOJ is currently holed up? Curious lack of his reassuring tones in and on the media. There’s some twitter chat that he and Nut Nut are in Mustique but surely even he wouldn’t be that cretinously tin eared. Would he?

    There are no Covid restrictions in England now apart from vaxports for nightclubs and large events. There is no foreign travel ban either and the UK airline and travel industry desperately needs a boost.

    Even if he is it may not be as tin eared as you think. If Sturgeon or Drakeford did it however it would be given the extra restrictions they have imposed in Scotland and Wales. As Boris is pursuing a more libertarian approach in England however it would not now be hypocritical for him
    So are you suggesting it would be OK for Mr and Mrs Johnson to fly to Mustique on Government trade business, of course (assuming that is where they are) because he didn't impose any further sanctions before he returns on New Year's Day (perish the thought)? Although...kinda handy doncha think? A bit like Pakistan and Bangladesh, but not India being on an earlier red list.

    I am sure this can't be true...can it?
    Apparently Boris is speaking later this morning, so I doubt even he is not stupid enough to be in Mustique
    Surely there’s very few MPs, certainly not Ministers, out of the country, given there was a reasonable chance Parliament was going to get recalled this week?
  • geoffwgeoffw Posts: 8,712

    HYUFD said:

    Anyone know where the FLSOJ is currently holed up? Curious lack of his reassuring tones in and on the media. There’s some twitter chat that he and Nut Nut are in Mustique but surely even he wouldn’t be that cretinously tin eared. Would he?

    There are no Covid restrictions in England now apart from vaxports for nightclubs and large events. There is no foreign travel ban either and the UK airline and travel industry desperately needs a boost.

    Even if he is it may not be as tin eared as you think. If Sturgeon or Drakeford did it however it would be given the extra restrictions they have imposed in Scotland and Wales. As Boris is pursuing a more libertarian approach in England however it would not now be hypocritical for him
    So are you suggesting it would be OK for Mr and Mrs Johnson to fly to Mustique on Government trade business, of course (assuming that is where they are) because he didn't impose any further sanctions before he returns on New Year's Day (perish the thought)? Although...kinda handy doncha think? A bit like Pakistan and Bangladesh, but not India being on an earlier red list.

    I am sure this can't be true...can it?
    Apparently Boris is speaking later this morning, so I doubt even he is not stupid enough to be in Mustique
    Did you mean that double negative?

  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,188
    geoffw said:

    Pulpstar said:

    MaxPB said:

    Telegraph saying that incidental admissions rate is now around 80% of the daily announced figures, up from 40%. That's similar to what we heard from SA which was ~75% incidental admissions during their Omicron wave.

    Overall bed occupancy and ICU occupancy is steady or down. These two are the ones to watch.

    Either 25 or 80% sounds high frankly - say 3 million have Covid, you'd expect 3/67ths of the population being admitted to a hospital to have "incidental Covid" ?

    Indicates a large amount of transmission in hospitals ?
    Isn't that a well known fact? An acquaintance of mine died of covid acquired in hospital. The Nightingales could have kept the covid patients separate from others.

    Well there's another issue. 'Incidental covid' is always sold as the broken leg in with covid....
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,454
    Sandpit said:

    HYUFD said:

    Anyone know where the FLSOJ is currently holed up? Curious lack of his reassuring tones in and on the media. There’s some twitter chat that he and Nut Nut are in Mustique but surely even he wouldn’t be that cretinously tin eared. Would he?

    There are no Covid restrictions in England now apart from vaxports for nightclubs and large events. There is no foreign travel ban either and the UK airline and travel industry desperately needs a boost.

    Even if he is it may not be as tin eared as you think. If Sturgeon or Drakeford did it however it would be given the extra restrictions they have imposed in Scotland and Wales. As Boris is pursuing a more libertarian approach in England however it would not now be hypocritical for him
    So are you suggesting it would be OK for Mr and Mrs Johnson to fly to Mustique on Government trade business, of course (assuming that is where they are) because he didn't impose any further sanctions before he returns on New Year's Day (perish the thought)? Although...kinda handy doncha think? A bit like Pakistan and Bangladesh, but not India being on an earlier red list.

    I am sure this can't be true...can it?
    Apparently Boris is speaking later this morning, so I doubt even he is not stupid enough to be in Mustique
    Surely there’s very few MPs, certainly not Ministers, out of the country, given there was a reasonable chance Parliament was going to get recalled this week?
    Sweet summer child
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    Sandpit said:

    HYUFD said:

    Anyone know where the FLSOJ is currently holed up? Curious lack of his reassuring tones in and on the media. There’s some twitter chat that he and Nut Nut are in Mustique but surely even he wouldn’t be that cretinously tin eared. Would he?

    There are no Covid restrictions in England now apart from vaxports for nightclubs and large events. There is no foreign travel ban either and the UK airline and travel industry desperately needs a boost.

    Even if he is it may not be as tin eared as you think. If Sturgeon or Drakeford did it however it would be given the extra restrictions they have imposed in Scotland and Wales. As Boris is pursuing a more libertarian approach in England however it would not now be hypocritical for him
    So are you suggesting it would be OK for Mr and Mrs Johnson to fly to Mustique on Government trade business, of course (assuming that is where they are) because he didn't impose any further sanctions before he returns on New Year's Day (perish the thought)? Although...kinda handy doncha think? A bit like Pakistan and Bangladesh, but not India being on an earlier red list.

    I am sure this can't be true...can it?
    Apparently Boris is speaking later this morning, so I doubt even he is not stupid enough to be in Mustique
    Surely there’s very few MPs, certainly not Ministers, out of the country, given there was a reasonable chance Parliament was going to get recalled this week?
    Sunak probably had an urgent visit to his holiday home high level business meeting scheduled.
  • kjhkjh Posts: 11,783
    HYUFD said:

    Anyone know where the FLSOJ is currently holed up? Curious lack of his reassuring tones in and on the media. There’s some twitter chat that he and Nut Nut are in Mustique but surely even he wouldn’t be that cretinously tin eared. Would he?

    There are no Covid restrictions in England now apart from vaxports for nightclubs and large events. There is no foreign travel ban either and the UK airline and travel industry desperately needs a boost.

    Even if he is it may not be as tin eared as you think. If Sturgeon or Drakeford did it however it would be given the extra restrictions they have imposed in Scotland and Wales. As Boris is pursuing a more libertarian approach in England however it would not now be hypocritical for him
    Of course it would. Just because something isn't banned you still lead by example and the message is enjoy yourself but be careful and be restrained. That wouldn't be. It would be a kick in the teeth for those not risking a modest trip to the Costas.
  • GadflyGadfly Posts: 1,191

    Good morning one and all. Unseasonably mild. Mrs C is darkly forecasting that 'we'll pay for it in mid to late January', but if our visitors have made it home we won't mind too much.

    Not feeling too confident about the economic future myself, although I did my income tax completed yesterday, which cheered me somewhat.

    Hey OKC, best wishes to you both and hope you had a good Christmas
    Thank you Horse. Same to you. We are left with a Christmas mystery; a bag of presents went missing and still hasn't been found!
    I found myself dumping used Christmas paper into a black bag that seemingly already contained other such paper. It later materialised that I'd unwittingly thrown out a bunch of presents, which were thankfully later recovered.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,368

    HYUFD said:

    Anyone know where the FLSOJ is currently holed up? Curious lack of his reassuring tones in and on the media. There’s some twitter chat that he and Nut Nut are in Mustique but surely even he wouldn’t be that cretinously tin eared. Would he?

    There are no Covid restrictions in England now apart from vaxports for nightclubs and large events. There is no foreign travel ban either and the UK airline and travel industry desperately needs a boost.

    Even if he is it may not be as tin eared as you think. If Sturgeon or Drakeford did it however it would be given the extra restrictions they have imposed in Scotland and Wales. As Boris is pursuing a more libertarian approach in England however it would not now be hypocritical for him
    So are you suggesting it would be OK for Mr and Mrs Johnson to fly to Mustique on Government trade business, of course (assuming that is where they are) because he didn't impose any further sanctions before he returns on New Year's Day (perish the thought)? Although...kinda handy doncha think? A bit like Pakistan and Bangladesh, but not India being on an earlier red list.

    I am sure this can't be true...can it?
    Apparently Boris is speaking later this morning, so I doubt even he is not stupid enough to be in Mustique
    Let's hope not.

    Although Mr Cox managed it from a similar location. Lots of Union flags should do the trick.
This discussion has been closed.