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The Red Wall seems to have swung most against Boris – politicalbetting.com

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  • Taz said:

    Sajid is probably the candidate most likely to go back to Cameronite policies.

    But as a Remainer, will the membership accept him?

    Truss was a remainer too.
    Hi Taz, hope you are well.

    I noted that yesterday, depends how moronic the Tory Party is I suppose
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 35,990
    Excl: A senior British banker is set to become NHS England's chairman.

    Richard Meddings, ex-chair of TSB Bank & non-exec director of Treasury, is Govt’s preferred candidate.

    Whitehall source says he'll bring an "outsider's eye" to NHS & help make health service more accountable

    https://twitter.com/LOS_Fisher/status/1474030100870053897
  • Ooh, a sub-sample thread! How exciting.

    (“cross-heads” ha ha)
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,829
    IshmaelZ said:

    Burnham tells BBC Breakfast that the government is right not to put restrictions on at this stage.

    Worried about mental health at this stage of pandemic if we do lockdowns again.

    Top man!!!

    Removing restrictions did little to help the population’s mental health, so it’s unclear that re-imposing them would necessarily threaten mental health. We do need to be aware of the mental health toll of the pandemic, but it appears to be more complicated than this simplistic idea that lockdowns are what cause mental health problems. See https://osf.io/d6cmv/
    When you say simplistic you mean simple, self evident and true. "In England, psychological distress was elevated, and wellbeing lower,during the COVID-19 pandemic compared to population norms" from your link seems about right.
    Er, that quote refers to the pandemic as a whole, not lockdowns.
  • Ooh, a sub-sample thread! How exciting.

    (“cross-heads” ha ha)

    Love the new photo Stuart, hope you are well
  • https://twitter.com/labour_history/status/1473207732186624004

    #OTD 1964. Vote on abolition of the Death Penalty passed 355 to 170. Labour had been in office two months when Sydney Silverman's bill was debated:

    "Men and women in my generation have lived through two world wars. They may have cost between them about 80 million human lives"

    [A couple of days late]
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830
    Carnyx said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Burnham tells BBC Breakfast that the government is right not to put restrictions on at this stage.

    Worried about mental health at this stage of pandemic if we do lockdowns again.

    Top man!!!

    Removing restrictions did little to help the population’s mental health, so it’s unclear that re-imposing them would necessarily threaten mental health. We do need to be aware of the mental health toll of the pandemic, but it appears to be more complicated than this simplistic idea that lockdowns are what cause mental health problems. See https://osf.io/d6cmv/
    It's self-evident that lockdowns must be bad for mental health in general.
    One would think so, but to prove it and trace the actual phenomena you have to compare it, not with a time without covid, but with a covid epidemic without lockdowns. Not easy.

    And see this albeit for suicide spewcifically

    https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lanepe/article/PIIS2666-7762(21)00087-9/fulltext
    No, bugger that. Psychiatric data are virtually worthless cos for starters the inputs are all subjective self-assessments. It is not a coincidence that the replication crisis is at its most acute in psychology/iatry. I am as confident that lockdown causes depression, as I am that gin makes me drunk.
  • TazTaz Posts: 14,376

    Taz said:

    Sajid is probably the candidate most likely to go back to Cameronite policies.

    But as a Remainer, will the membership accept him?

    Truss was a remainer too.
    Hi Taz, hope you are well.

    I noted that yesterday, depends how moronic the Tory Party is I suppose
    All good here CHB, Hope you’re well too.

    I think he thing with Truss is many have forgotten her remainer credentials due to her current trajectory.
  • Loved this in The Guardian’s list of the year’s 50 best tv shows:

    37.
    Blair and Brown: The New Labour Revolution
    (BBC Two)

    … It is an inside job, with Labour veterans as unreliable narrators. Brown’s speechwriter Douglas Alexander even says: “They were literally the Lennon and McCartney of British politics.” Rubbish. They were more like Wham!, with no George Michael and two Andrew Ridgeleys.

    https://www.theguardian.com/tv-and-radio/2021/dec/03/the-50-best-tv-shows-of-2021
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,134
    On the betting, bit of a shift on betfair against Johnson early exit, ie before the 22 party conf. It was over 2 that he'd make it, now in to 1.6. That's a more realistic assessment imo although I think it's still too big.
  • Loved this in The Guardian’s list of the year’s 50 best tv shows:

    37.
    Blair and Brown: The New Labour Revolution
    (BBC Two)

    … It is an inside job, with Labour veterans as unreliable narrators. Brown’s speechwriter Douglas Alexander even says: “They were literally the Lennon and McCartney of British politics.” Rubbish. They were more like Wham!, with no George Michael and two Andrew Ridgeleys.

    https://www.theguardian.com/tv-and-radio/2021/dec/03/the-50-best-tv-shows-of-2021

    The best political programme of the last decade IMHO
  • Taz said:

    Taz said:

    Sajid is probably the candidate most likely to go back to Cameronite policies.

    But as a Remainer, will the membership accept him?

    Truss was a remainer too.
    Hi Taz, hope you are well.

    I noted that yesterday, depends how moronic the Tory Party is I suppose
    All good here CHB, Hope you’re well too.

    I think he thing with Truss is many have forgotten her remainer credentials due to her current trajectory.
    Strategically, Truss has played a smart game. But Sunak can say he is the only Leaver in the contest, I wonder if he will go for it.

    I still don't really know what his politics are, anyone know?
  • MattWMattW Posts: 23,145
    eek said:

    MattW said:


    eek said:

    TOPPING said:

    Mortimer said:

    Has the U.K. got rid of “droit de suite” or the necessity to apply VAT to renovations yet?

    They were about the only thing that annoyed me about cumbersome EU regulation.

    Frustratingly we set up our own artist resale right scheme. Madness. I think keeping it was in the withdrawal treaty too.

    VAT is now an entirely domestic tax, however, and we can do with it what we like.
    Yep. Waiting for the govt to zero rate VAT on domestic fuel supplies.
    With 40% price increases arriving a 5% cut isn't going to solve anything nor be noticed with gratitude.
    I think they will tweak the mechanism in March, or Jan/Feb is Boris has been dumped by then.
    Doubt it - and if you wish to tweak it, it's best to get Boris to cop the blame.
    Do you think that energy bills will be allowed to jump by 40% or so, which aiui is the logic of the algorithm?

    https://www.moneysavingexpert.com/news/2021/12/martin-lewis--even-the-cheapest-deals-are-more-than-double-than-/
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 35,990
    Taz said:

    I think he thing with Truss is many have forgotten her remainer credentials due to her current trajectory.

    Janet McCollum, CEO of Moy Park Northern Ireland's biggest employer, clear EU Single Market vital for their business https://twitter.com/trussliz/status/730760481049350144/photo/1


  • eekeek Posts: 28,368
    MattW said:

    eek said:

    MattW said:


    eek said:

    TOPPING said:

    Mortimer said:

    Has the U.K. got rid of “droit de suite” or the necessity to apply VAT to renovations yet?

    They were about the only thing that annoyed me about cumbersome EU regulation.

    Frustratingly we set up our own artist resale right scheme. Madness. I think keeping it was in the withdrawal treaty too.

    VAT is now an entirely domestic tax, however, and we can do with it what we like.
    Yep. Waiting for the govt to zero rate VAT on domestic fuel supplies.
    With 40% price increases arriving a 5% cut isn't going to solve anything nor be noticed with gratitude.
    I think they will tweak the mechanism in March, or Jan/Feb is Boris has been dumped by then.
    Doubt it - and if you wish to tweak it, it's best to get Boris to cop the blame.
    Do you think that energy bills will be allowed to jump by 40% or so, which aiui is the logic of the algorithm?

    https://www.moneysavingexpert.com/news/2021/12/martin-lewis--even-the-cheapest-deals-are-more-than-double-than-/
    The cap needs to go as you cannot expect companies to sell at a loss which is what the cap does in the current market.

    How you then protect the elderly is a different matter but it's a problem that the Government is going to have to fix because no-one else can.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,812
    edited December 2021
    TimT said:

    Is this the very definition of irony? Congresswoman who supported defund the police carjacked in crime-surging Philadelphia:

    https://www.foxnews.com/politics/democratic-congresswoman-defund-police-carjacked-in-crime-surging-philadelphia

    I used to think like that until I appreciated that those who want to defund the police want to defund this police force on the grounds that it is f******* useless and replace it with something better. She may well conclude that being carjacked rather makes her point rather than detracting from it.
  • CorrectHorseBatteryCorrectHorseBattery Posts: 21,436
    edited December 2021
    "Power without principle is barren, but principle without power is futile." - Tony Blair

    BoJo is learning what this means
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830

    https://twitter.com/labour_history/status/1473207732186624004

    #OTD 1964. Vote on abolition of the Death Penalty passed 355 to 170. Labour had been in office two months when Sydney Silverman's bill was debated:

    "Men and women in my generation have lived through two world wars. They may have cost between them about 80 million human lives"

    [A couple of days late]

    "...of innocent men, women and children, so what the objection is to stringing up a few dozen guilty ones a year is entirely beyond me" is presumably not how that continues, but I don't really see what point he is about to make.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,812

    Loved this in The Guardian’s list of the year’s 50 best tv shows:

    37.
    Blair and Brown: The New Labour Revolution
    (BBC Two)

    … It is an inside job, with Labour veterans as unreliable narrators. Brown’s speechwriter Douglas Alexander even says: “They were literally the Lennon and McCartney of British politics.” Rubbish. They were more like Wham!, with no George Michael and two Andrew Ridgeleys.

    https://www.theguardian.com/tv-and-radio/2021/dec/03/the-50-best-tv-shows-of-2021

    The best political programme of the last decade IMHO
    That surely has to be Cumberbatch's Brexit. Took the piss out of everybody quite brilliantly.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,134

    Loved this in The Guardian’s list of the year’s 50 best tv shows:

    37.
    Blair and Brown: The New Labour Revolution
    (BBC Two)

    … It is an inside job, with Labour veterans as unreliable narrators. Brown’s speechwriter Douglas Alexander even says: “They were literally the Lennon and McCartney of British politics.” Rubbish. They were more like Wham!, with no George Michael and two Andrew Ridgeleys.

    https://www.theguardian.com/tv-and-radio/2021/dec/03/the-50-best-tv-shows-of-2021

    And Rubber Soul is literally the National Minimum Wage of British pop music.
  • TazTaz Posts: 14,376

    Loved this in The Guardian’s list of the year’s 50 best tv shows:

    37.
    Blair and Brown: The New Labour Revolution
    (BBC Two)

    … It is an inside job, with Labour veterans as unreliable narrators. Brown’s speechwriter Douglas Alexander even says: “They were literally the Lennon and McCartney of British politics.” Rubbish. They were more like Wham!, with no George Michael and two Andrew Ridgeleys.

    https://www.theguardian.com/tv-and-radio/2021/dec/03/the-50-best-tv-shows-of-2021

    Those lists are always shite, designed to provoke comment and clicks. But glad to see Gods of Snooker on there
  • TazTaz Posts: 14,376
    kinabalu said:

    Loved this in The Guardian’s list of the year’s 50 best tv shows:

    37.
    Blair and Brown: The New Labour Revolution
    (BBC Two)

    … It is an inside job, with Labour veterans as unreliable narrators. Brown’s speechwriter Douglas Alexander even says: “They were literally the Lennon and McCartney of British politics.” Rubbish. They were more like Wham!, with no George Michael and two Andrew Ridgeleys.

    https://www.theguardian.com/tv-and-radio/2021/dec/03/the-50-best-tv-shows-of-2021

    And Rubber Soul is literally the National Minimum Wage of British pop music.
    My favourite Beatles album, I’d have to say best of the Beatles.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 35,990
    Check out our @IpsosMORI predictions poll for 2022. Bookmark it to come back at the end of next year and see how right the public were! Half of Brits think there’ll be a General Election in 2022, and nearly 2 in 3 think Boris Johnson won’t be Prime Minister by the end of it https://twitter.com/KellyIpsosMORI/status/1474036316514000902/photo/1
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 18,355
    What surprises me is that we haven't had any hypothetical polling asking how people would vote if Sunak/Truss/Patel was leader instead of Johnson, unless I've missed some.

    With all the questions being raised over Johnson's leadership, and the decline in the poll ratings, it's the obvious polling question that's been asked in the past. So I'm quite mystified by its absence.
  • The logical thing for disaffected Tories to do, assuming they live in the right seats, is indeed to go LD.

    But LDs will need to do a better job of positioning themselves as a moderating influence on Labour.

    They also need to develop a more realistic policy on Brexit.
    I think most people (including me) think that is a debate of little interest if you are a floating voter. At the moment I could go Tory if they have a sensible leader, LD or Labour if they convince me they have seen off Corbynites. If there was a GE tomorrow I would vote LD
    I think you are wrong there. There are many people like me who cannot vote for Johnson but who would never vote for such a pro-EU party. They already have the pro-EU vote. What they need to do is retain it whilst softening their position so they don't frighten off potential new voters. Right now my vote is still firmly in the spoiled ballot territory.
    A valid point. However parties should remain true to core values. It is perfectly legitimate for them to say to the electorate that they accept the referendum, but that they think we should form a more positive relationship with all our EU/EEA trading partners and that at some point in the distant future if it looked in UK's interest to rejoin or to join EEA they would offer a referendum with three preferences: EU/EEA/None. That might be repellent to you, but not me.
    If the government wanted to make the argument for EEA membership and a customs deal it could do so pretty simply
    1. Its not the EU
    2. Its not EU courts - EFTA is completely separate
    3. Its not free movement - we will deport spongers who come here and don't work
    4. EEA standards are the same as our standards - we've set the bar
    5. We can massively cut red tape and make British exports competitive again
    6. A big boost to jobs

    The current government won't do it but I expect Sunak to do so fairly quickly. Perhaps even posing with a big pair of scissors (signed of course) ceremonially cutting through "EU Red Tape" to remove the reams and fucking reams of bullshit that we're all about to drown in next month.
    I hope you are right. I would have been happy to stay in the EU, but also realise there is a considerable body of opinion that do not like that so EEA is a sensible compromise position. Can't see the Tories implementing though sadly. Too many fecking ideological swivel-eyes in both the parliamentary party and the activist base
    I hear you. But ultimately the mouth-foamers are small state low regulation people. And we have gone from very low regulation trade to very high regulation trade with our biggest market.

    Surely at some point once the harrumphing about sovrinty calms down they will look at the new normal and recognise that it is the literal antithesis of all they have worked for - cutting costs, red tape and bureaucracy. How tempting must it then be to get the big scissors and cut it all away?

    Remember that their vision of a Singapore-on-Thames Britain doesn't work with massive cost and complexities of red tape trying business up in knots. They will have to give that up sooner or later.
    You seem to miss the point that the cost of low regulation trade with 7% of the world's population was having no control over he regulation and in many cases suffering from high and unnecessary regulation with the other 93%. We now have the option - should we choose it - to reduce regulation with the 93%. Something we had no ability to do inside the EU.
    The 93% of the world isn't 93% of our trade. And the "high and unnecessary regulation" hasn't suddenly changed, never mind improved, since we left the EU. Indeed Truss has become a hero to the Tory party Brexiteers by working very hard to sign "new" trade deals that replicate the old ones we just ditched.

    Its theory - that we can now do what we like - vs reality - no we can't.
    Actually we can. The fact that this Government chooses not to doesn't mean it is not possible. Just that this Government is particularly useless. The idea that we can't is as false as the idea that all of our trade with the EU has suddenly become subject to tariffs.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 18,355
    eek said:

    MattW said:

    eek said:

    MattW said:


    eek said:

    TOPPING said:

    Mortimer said:

    Has the U.K. got rid of “droit de suite” or the necessity to apply VAT to renovations yet?

    They were about the only thing that annoyed me about cumbersome EU regulation.

    Frustratingly we set up our own artist resale right scheme. Madness. I think keeping it was in the withdrawal treaty too.

    VAT is now an entirely domestic tax, however, and we can do with it what we like.
    Yep. Waiting for the govt to zero rate VAT on domestic fuel supplies.
    With 40% price increases arriving a 5% cut isn't going to solve anything nor be noticed with gratitude.
    I think they will tweak the mechanism in March, or Jan/Feb is Boris has been dumped by then.
    Doubt it - and if you wish to tweak it, it's best to get Boris to cop the blame.
    Do you think that energy bills will be allowed to jump by 40% or so, which aiui is the logic of the algorithm?

    https://www.moneysavingexpert.com/news/2021/12/martin-lewis--even-the-cheapest-deals-are-more-than-double-than-/
    The cap needs to go as you cannot expect companies to sell at a loss which is what the cap does in the current market.

    How you then protect the elderly is a different matter but it's a problem that the Government is going to have to fix because no-one else can.
    The government may hope that wholesale prices will fall relatively soon, so they can use the mechanism of the cap to spread the cost out over time
  • HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    The logical thing for disaffected Tories to do, assuming they live in the right seats, is indeed to go LD.

    But LDs will need to do a better job of positioning themselves as a moderating influence on Labour.

    They also need to develop a more realistic policy on Brexit.
    I think most people (including me) think that is a debate of little interest if you are a floating voter. At the moment I could go Tory if they have a sensible leader, LD or Labour if they convince me they have seen off Corbynites. If there was a GE tomorrow I would vote LD
    I think you are wrong there. There are many people like me who cannot vote for Johnson but who would never vote for such a pro-EU party. They already have the pro-EU vote. What they need to do is retain it whilst softening their position so they don't frighten off potential new voters. Right now my vote is still firmly in the spoiled ballot territory.
    I would have thought you were more likely to be RefUK than any of the main parties anyway
    Nope. They have too much baggage. I am not looking for parties to be perfect but there are too many fundamental flaws with all of them at the moment - even those I have some agreement with on some areas.
    You are basically like Peter Hitchens, the parties have to be pure or you won't back them.

    That might work under PR where 10 or more parties could win seats, it will not work under FPTP unfortunately where the big 3 win almost all the seats outside Scotland where the SNP dominate
    Nope. Looks like you are incapable of reading basic English. Or rather you ignore what people say when you don't want to have to address it. I specifically said "I am not looking for parties to be perfect but there are too many fundamental flaws with all of them at the moment"

    You might be happy blindly voting for a party in spite of all its failings - indeed you exhibit daily on here that you do. Sensible people do not.
  • Cicero said:

    The logical thing for disaffected Tories to do, assuming they live in the right seats, is indeed to go LD.

    But LDs will need to do a better job of positioning themselves as a moderating influence on Labour.

    They also need to develop a more realistic policy on Brexit.
    I think most people (including me) think that is a debate of little interest if you are a floating voter. At the moment I could go Tory if they have a sensible leader, LD or Labour if they convince me they have seen off Corbynites. If there was a GE tomorrow I would vote LD
    I think you are wrong there. There are many people like me who cannot vote for Johnson but who would never vote for such a pro-EU party. They already have the pro-EU vote. What they need to do is retain it whilst softening their position so they don't frighten off potential new voters. Right now my vote is still firmly in the spoiled ballot territory.
    A valid point. However parties should remain true to core values. It is perfectly legitimate for them to say to the electorate that they accept the referendum, but that they think we should form a more positive relationship with all our EU/EEA trading partners and that at some point in the distant future if it looked in UK's interest to rejoin or to join EEA they would offer a referendum with three preferences: EU/EEA/None. That might be repellent to you, but not me.
    If the government wanted to make the argument for EEA membership and a customs deal it could do so pretty simply
    1. Its not the EU
    2. Its not EU courts - EFTA is completely separate
    3. Its not free movement - we will deport spongers who come here and don't work
    4. EEA standards are the same as our standards - we've set the bar
    5. We can massively cut red tape and make British exports competitive again
    6. A big boost to jobs

    The current government won't do it but I expect Sunak to do so fairly quickly. Perhaps even posing with a big pair of scissors (signed of course) ceremonially cutting through "EU Red Tape" to remove the reams and fucking reams of bullshit that we're all about to drown in next month.
    I hope you are right. I would have been happy to stay in the EU, but also realise there is a considerable body of opinion that do not like that so EEA is a sensible compromise position. Can't see the Tories implementing though sadly. Too many fecking ideological swivel-eyes in both the parliamentary party and the activist base
    I hear you. But ultimately the mouth-foamers are small state low regulation people. And we have gone from very low regulation trade to very high regulation trade with our biggest market.

    Surely at some point once the harrumphing about sovrinty calms down they will look at the new normal and recognise that it is the literal antithesis of all they have worked for - cutting costs, red tape and bureaucracy. How tempting must it then be to get the big scissors and cut it all away?

    Remember that their vision of a Singapore-on-Thames Britain doesn't work with massive cost and complexities of red tape trying business up in knots. They will have to give that up sooner or later.
    You seem to miss the point that the cost of low regulation trade with 7% of the world's population was having no control over he regulation and in many cases suffering from high and unnecessary regulation with the other 93%. We now have the option - should we choose it - to reduce regulation with the 93%. Something we had no ability to do inside the EU.
    You've had 5 years to explain how you were going to do that. You failed to do so, why should we listen any further?
    I have explained on here often what I would do both above and below the byline. Sadly I am not in power so have no authority to enact it. If you choose not to listen just because you disagree then that is your problem not mine.
  • boulayboulay Posts: 5,486
    Taz said:

    kinabalu said:

    Loved this in The Guardian’s list of the year’s 50 best tv shows:

    37.
    Blair and Brown: The New Labour Revolution
    (BBC Two)

    … It is an inside job, with Labour veterans as unreliable narrators. Brown’s speechwriter Douglas Alexander even says: “They were literally the Lennon and McCartney of British politics.” Rubbish. They were more like Wham!, with no George Michael and two Andrew Ridgeleys.

    https://www.theguardian.com/tv-and-radio/2021/dec/03/the-50-best-tv-shows-of-2021

    And Rubber Soul is literally the National Minimum Wage of British pop music.
    My favourite Beatles album, I’d have to say best of the Beatles.
    But then there’s “Wings”, the band the Beatles could have been…..
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 22,011

    The SNP influence in a Starmer Government seems overstated, they won't be part of the Government and the Lib Dems would have the influence

    IMO there won't be one, but if there were, the SCG aka "the nutters" will have more influence in any minority or majority under 35.

    Best step up the war on Socialists!!
    Here way go, pretending that only those on the far left of the party (and beyond) are the only Socialists in the village.

    It just won't wash.
  • Lol @Richard_Tyndall is one of the least ideologically pure people here, what a bizarre accusation
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 18,355
    IshmaelZ said:

    Burnham tells BBC Breakfast that the government is right not to put restrictions on at this stage.

    Worried about mental health at this stage of pandemic if we do lockdowns again.

    Top man!!!

    Removing restrictions did little to help the population’s mental health, so it’s unclear that re-imposing them would necessarily threaten mental health. We do need to be aware of the mental health toll of the pandemic, but it appears to be more complicated than this simplistic idea that lockdowns are what cause mental health problems. See https://osf.io/d6cmv/
    When you say simplistic you mean simple, self evident and true. "In England, psychological distress was elevated, and wellbeing lower,during the COVID-19 pandemic compared to population norms" from your link seems about right.
    Is that during the pandemic as a whole, rather than specifically just during the lockdowns?
  • TazTaz Posts: 14,376
    boulay said:

    Taz said:

    kinabalu said:

    Loved this in The Guardian’s list of the year’s 50 best tv shows:

    37.
    Blair and Brown: The New Labour Revolution
    (BBC Two)

    … It is an inside job, with Labour veterans as unreliable narrators. Brown’s speechwriter Douglas Alexander even says: “They were literally the Lennon and McCartney of British politics.” Rubbish. They were more like Wham!, with no George Michael and two Andrew Ridgeleys.

    https://www.theguardian.com/tv-and-radio/2021/dec/03/the-50-best-tv-shows-of-2021

    And Rubber Soul is literally the National Minimum Wage of British pop music.
    My favourite Beatles album, I’d have to say best of the Beatles.
    But then there’s “Wings”, the band the Beatles could have been…..
    😂

    Come back on ELO and carry on playing.
  • Starting today, Germany will release a daily Omicron update:

    - Cases: 3,198
    - Reinfected: 54
    - Hospitalized: 48
    - Deaths: 1

    https://twitter.com/BNODesk/status/1474038395852754947?s=20
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 81,989
    edited December 2021
    "Respirators, which includes masks known as N95, FFP2 and others, should especially be worn in care settings where ventilation is known to be poor."-
    @DrTedros

    Again, simple public health advice that the government haven't being pushing.
  • "Respirators, which includes masks known as N95, FFP2 and others, should especially be worn in care settings where ventilation is known to be poor."-
    @DrTedros

    Again, simple public health advice that the government haven't being pushing.

    Should require FFP2 on public transport
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,918

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    The logical thing for disaffected Tories to do, assuming they live in the right seats, is indeed to go LD.

    But LDs will need to do a better job of positioning themselves as a moderating influence on Labour.

    They also need to develop a more realistic policy on Brexit.
    I think most people (including me) think that is a debate of little interest if you are a floating voter. At the moment I could go Tory if they have a sensible leader, LD or Labour if they convince me they have seen off Corbynites. If there was a GE tomorrow I would vote LD
    I think you are wrong there. There are many people like me who cannot vote for Johnson but who would never vote for such a pro-EU party. They already have the pro-EU vote. What they need to do is retain it whilst softening their position so they don't frighten off potential new voters. Right now my vote is still firmly in the spoiled ballot territory.
    I would have thought you were more likely to be RefUK than any of the main parties anyway
    Nope. They have too much baggage. I am not looking for parties to be perfect but there are too many fundamental flaws with all of them at the moment - even those I have some agreement with on some areas.
    You are basically like Peter Hitchens, the parties have to be pure or you won't back them.

    That might work under PR where 10 or more parties could win seats, it will not work under FPTP unfortunately where the big 3 win almost all the seats outside Scotland where the SNP dominate
    Nope. Looks like you are incapable of reading basic English. Or rather you ignore what people say when you don't want to have to address it. I specifically said "I am not looking for parties to be perfect but there are too many fundamental flaws with all of them at the moment"

    You might be happy blindly voting for a party in spite of all its failings - indeed you exhibit daily on here that you do. Sensible people do not.
    If I recall you voted UKIP in 2015 so are perfectly happy to vote for a party when you consider it is in tune with you ideologically.

    Indeed UKIP seems the only party you have ever voted for with any enthusiasm, so my original statement RefUK is probably your best bet is not far off the mark
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,829
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    The logical thing for disaffected Tories to do, assuming they live in the right seats, is indeed to go LD.

    But LDs will need to do a better job of positioning themselves as a moderating influence on Labour.

    They also need to develop a more realistic policy on Brexit.
    I think most people (including me) think that is a debate of little interest if you are a floating voter. At the moment I could go Tory if they have a sensible leader, LD or Labour if they convince me they have seen off Corbynites. If there was a GE tomorrow I would vote LD
    I think you are wrong there. There are many people like me who cannot vote for Johnson but who would never vote for such a pro-EU party. They already have the pro-EU vote. What they need to do is retain it whilst softening their position so they don't frighten off potential new voters. Right now my vote is still firmly in the spoiled ballot territory.
    I would have thought you were more likely to be RefUK than any of the main parties anyway
    Nope. They have too much baggage. I am not looking for parties to be perfect but there are too many fundamental flaws with all of them at the moment - even those I have some agreement with on some areas.
    You are basically like Peter Hitchens, the parties have to be pure or you won't back them.

    That might work under PR where 10 or more parties could win seats, it will not work under FPTP unfortunately where the big 3 win almost all the seats outside Scotland where the SNP dominate
    NI no longer part of the UK, then.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,134
    edited December 2021
    Taz said:

    kinabalu said:

    Loved this in The Guardian’s list of the year’s 50 best tv shows:

    37.
    Blair and Brown: The New Labour Revolution
    (BBC Two)

    … It is an inside job, with Labour veterans as unreliable narrators. Brown’s speechwriter Douglas Alexander even says: “They were literally the Lennon and McCartney of British politics.” Rubbish. They were more like Wham!, with no George Michael and two Andrew Ridgeleys.

    https://www.theguardian.com/tv-and-radio/2021/dec/03/the-50-best-tv-shows-of-2021

    And Rubber Soul is literally the National Minimum Wage of British pop music.
    My favourite Beatles album, I’d have to say best of the Beatles.
    It's not my fav - Abbey Rd is - but I do like it a lot. Rubber Soul is also the only Beatles LP I don't physically have. Reason being, many years ago, I was drinking on the Kings Rd and had my keys and wallet stolen. Hightailed it in a taxi back but these guys were so quick that by the time I got there they'd been in and out. One of the things stolen was my CD player along with the CD that happened to be in it - which was Rubber Soul. Not the greatest thing to have happened In My Life but I guess it might have been worse if I'd disturbed them.
  • The only person that is allowed to vote Tory is @HYUFD.

    He’s going to be shocked when learns I’ve voted Tory before
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,859

    "Power without principle is barren, but principle without power is futile." - Tony Blair

    BoJo is learning what this means

    Eh? It is aimed at people with an excess of principle.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,802
    Some ONS health statistics bod has called Drakeford a liar over his claims yesterday that Omicron is just as severe as Delta. That seems serious for him to be rebuked in that manner. It was stretching credibility quite significantly to say that after all of the data releases yesterday from Edinburgh, Imperial, the South Africans and the Danes saying it was between 50% and 80% less severe on a like for like basis. He's had to lie to justify the restrictions and now he's been caught in that lie, hopefully the Westminster government will force the issue with the Welsh and Scots by opening up England in full, no restrictions, no plan b, no isolation for contacts and no isolation for mild Omicron.
  • eek said:

    MattW said:

    eek said:

    MattW said:


    eek said:

    TOPPING said:

    Mortimer said:

    Has the U.K. got rid of “droit de suite” or the necessity to apply VAT to renovations yet?

    They were about the only thing that annoyed me about cumbersome EU regulation.

    Frustratingly we set up our own artist resale right scheme. Madness. I think keeping it was in the withdrawal treaty too.

    VAT is now an entirely domestic tax, however, and we can do with it what we like.
    Yep. Waiting for the govt to zero rate VAT on domestic fuel supplies.
    With 40% price increases arriving a 5% cut isn't going to solve anything nor be noticed with gratitude.
    I think they will tweak the mechanism in March, or Jan/Feb is Boris has been dumped by then.
    Doubt it - and if you wish to tweak it, it's best to get Boris to cop the blame.
    Do you think that energy bills will be allowed to jump by 40% or so, which aiui is the logic of the algorithm?

    https://www.moneysavingexpert.com/news/2021/12/martin-lewis--even-the-cheapest-deals-are-more-than-double-than-/
    The cap needs to go as you cannot expect companies to sell at a loss which is what the cap does in the current market.

    How you then protect the elderly is a different matter but it's a problem that the Government is going to have to fix because no-one else can.
    The government may hope that wholesale prices will fall relatively soon, so they can use the mechanism of the cap to spread the cost out over time
    I am not sure they will. The power situation is getting worse not better. In both France and Germany yesterday they announced the closure of some high power use industries including Aluminium and Zinc smelters because of the need to limit power consumption. The forward price for energy in France for May is 1000 Euros a Megawatt/hour for February and the EU has had to lift the future trading cap from 999 Euros Megawatt/hour to 3000 Euros Megawatt/hour. This is the same right across Europe and it is only going to get worse.
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830
    boulay said:

    Taz said:

    kinabalu said:

    Loved this in The Guardian’s list of the year’s 50 best tv shows:

    37.
    Blair and Brown: The New Labour Revolution
    (BBC Two)

    … It is an inside job, with Labour veterans as unreliable narrators. Brown’s speechwriter Douglas Alexander even says: “They were literally the Lennon and McCartney of British politics.” Rubbish. They were more like Wham!, with no George Michael and two Andrew Ridgeleys.

    https://www.theguardian.com/tv-and-radio/2021/dec/03/the-50-best-tv-shows-of-2021

    And Rubber Soul is literally the National Minimum Wage of British pop music.
    My favourite Beatles album, I’d have to say best of the Beatles.
    But then there’s “Wings”, the band the Beatles could have been…..
    I am coming to the view that Harrison was the only one with any discernible talent.

    We are talking about an album with "Michelle" on it ffs. Anyone want to defend that?
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,829
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    The logical thing for disaffected Tories to do, assuming they live in the right seats, is indeed to go LD.

    But LDs will need to do a better job of positioning themselves as a moderating influence on Labour.

    They also need to develop a more realistic policy on Brexit.
    I think most people (including me) think that is a debate of little interest if you are a floating voter. At the moment I could go Tory if they have a sensible leader, LD or Labour if they convince me they have seen off Corbynites. If there was a GE tomorrow I would vote LD
    I think you are wrong there. There are many people like me who cannot vote for Johnson but who would never vote for such a pro-EU party. They already have the pro-EU vote. What they need to do is retain it whilst softening their position so they don't frighten off potential new voters. Right now my vote is still firmly in the spoiled ballot territory.
    I would have thought you were more likely to be RefUK than any of the main parties anyway
    Nope. They have too much baggage. I am not looking for parties to be perfect but there are too many fundamental flaws with all of them at the moment - even those I have some agreement with on some areas.
    You are basically like Peter Hitchens, the parties have to be pure or you won't back them.

    That might work under PR where 10 or more parties could win seats, it will not work under FPTP unfortunately where the big 3 win almost all the seats outside Scotland where the SNP dominate
    Nope. Looks like you are incapable of reading basic English. Or rather you ignore what people say when you don't want to have to address it. I specifically said "I am not looking for parties to be perfect but there are too many fundamental flaws with all of them at the moment"

    You might be happy blindly voting for a party in spite of all its failings - indeed you exhibit daily on here that you do. Sensible people do not.
    If I recall you voted UKIP in 2015 so are perfectly happy to vote for a party when you consider it is in tune with you ideologically.

    Indeed UKIP seems the only party you have ever voted for with any enthusiasm, so my original statement RefUK is probably your best bet is not far off the mark
    What are you complaining about? The modern Tory Party is basically a CUP-UKIP merger.
  • Loved this in The Guardian’s list of the year’s 50 best tv shows:

    37.
    Blair and Brown: The New Labour Revolution
    (BBC Two)

    … It is an inside job, with Labour veterans as unreliable narrators. Brown’s speechwriter Douglas Alexander even says: “They were literally the Lennon and McCartney of British politics.” Rubbish. They were more like Wham!, with no George Michael and two Andrew Ridgeleys.

    https://www.theguardian.com/tv-and-radio/2021/dec/03/the-50-best-tv-shows-of-2021

    Like Omicron , Blair and Brown underwhelmed me . Andrew Marrs history of Modern Britain was far better even when he just talked about the politics of the times. I agree Brexit - The uncivil war was great .
  • kyf_100kyf_100 Posts: 4,940

    "Respirators, which includes masks known as N95, FFP2 and others, should especially be worn in care settings where ventilation is known to be poor."-
    @DrTedros

    Again, simple public health advice that the government haven't being pushing.

    Should require FFP2 on public transport
    Doesn't matter if it's FFP2 or FFP2000 if people wear them on their chins.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,859
    BREAKING: This is the news we have all been dreading. I'm afraid the prime minister has ruined Christmas at the very last minute. This really is the worst possible timing. He has just confirmed he will *not* be offering his resignation, after all.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 35,990
    This interview is sending shockwaves through the anti-vax MAGAs this morning. “The vaccine is one of the greatest achievements of mankind .. The ones that get very sick and go to the hospital are the ones who don’t take the vaccine.” https://twitter.com/RonFilipkowski/status/1474024520721866789/video/1
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830

    The only person that is allowed to vote Tory is @HYUFD.

    He’s going to be shocked when learns I’ve voted Tory before

    No, he knows you haven't because [details of a 1987 poll with the don't knows left out].
  • HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    The logical thing for disaffected Tories to do, assuming they live in the right seats, is indeed to go LD.

    But LDs will need to do a better job of positioning themselves as a moderating influence on Labour.

    They also need to develop a more realistic policy on Brexit.
    I think most people (including me) think that is a debate of little interest if you are a floating voter. At the moment I could go Tory if they have a sensible leader, LD or Labour if they convince me they have seen off Corbynites. If there was a GE tomorrow I would vote LD
    I think you are wrong there. There are many people like me who cannot vote for Johnson but who would never vote for such a pro-EU party. They already have the pro-EU vote. What they need to do is retain it whilst softening their position so they don't frighten off potential new voters. Right now my vote is still firmly in the spoiled ballot territory.
    I would have thought you were more likely to be RefUK than any of the main parties anyway
    Nope. They have too much baggage. I am not looking for parties to be perfect but there are too many fundamental flaws with all of them at the moment - even those I have some agreement with on some areas.
    You are basically like Peter Hitchens, the parties have to be pure or you won't back them.

    That might work under PR where 10 or more parties could win seats, it will not work under FPTP unfortunately where the big 3 win almost all the seats outside Scotland where the SNP dominate
    Nope. Looks like you are incapable of reading basic English. Or rather you ignore what people say when you don't want to have to address it. I specifically said "I am not looking for parties to be perfect but there are too many fundamental flaws with all of them at the moment"

    You might be happy blindly voting for a party in spite of all its failings - indeed you exhibit daily on here that you do. Sensible people do not.
    If I recall you voted UKIP in 2015 so are perfectly happy to vote for a party when you consider it is in tune with you ideologically.

    Indeed UKIP seems the only party you have ever voted for with any enthusiasm, so my original statement RefUK is probably your best bet is not far off the mark
    Given it was effectively a one policy party then yes absolutely. Either I agreed with them or I did not. There was not much room for doubt either way. So nothing there which runs counter to exactly what I said. You on the other hand will vote Tory if it were run by Coco the clown. Indeed you do.
  • Ooh, a sub-sample thread! How exciting.

    (“cross-heads” ha ha)

    Love the new photo Stuart, hope you are well
    I like to feature my favourite politicians. Yes thank you, in absolutely top form.

    Our adult kids have now turned up, so the house is once again whole. Fantastic feeling. Tomorrow is the Big Day in Sweden (and in most of Europe), so I’ll not be online much. After the dog walk it’ll be glögg, then Bollinger (been an exceedingly good year), then a lovely evening with the family.

    God jul. Guid yule!
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 81,989
    edited December 2021
    Scott_xP said:

    This interview is sending shockwaves through the anti-vax MAGAs this morning. “The vaccine is one of the greatest achievements of mankind .. The ones that get very sick and go to the hospital are the ones who don’t take the vaccine.” https://twitter.com/RonFilipkowski/status/1474024520721866789/video/1

    His points are perfectly valid until you hear.

    "I came up with 3 vaccines".....

    Even Prof Peston doesn't claim he invented 3 vaccines, maybe 1 of them, but not 3.
  • MortimerMortimer Posts: 14,125
    edited December 2021

    "Respirators, which includes masks known as N95, FFP2 and others, should especially be worn in care settings where ventilation is known to be poor."-
    @DrTedros

    Again, simple public health advice that the government haven't being pushing.

    Should require FFP2 on public transport
    The mask fetish is getting absurd now.

    It's clear that with Omicron endemicity, they're of little use.

    Time to get rid of all regulations.
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 22,011

    "Respirators, which includes masks known as N95, FFP2 and others, should especially be worn in care settings where ventilation is known to be poor."-
    @DrTedros

    Again, simple public health advice that the government haven't being pushing.

    Should require FFP2 on public transport
    If the government insists on a face covering, the least they could do is stipulate one that is efficacious. Otherwise, assorted fabric masks, scarves, snoods and snot-rags get used and achieve very little.
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    Alistair's SA Update

    Week 51 prediction:
    8900 cases (+6%)
    631 deaths (+52%) (For reference their Delta peak was 3802)

    2.7% Ventilated
    14.7% Oxygenated


  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830

    IshmaelZ said:

    Burnham tells BBC Breakfast that the government is right not to put restrictions on at this stage.

    Worried about mental health at this stage of pandemic if we do lockdowns again.

    Top man!!!

    Removing restrictions did little to help the population’s mental health, so it’s unclear that re-imposing them would necessarily threaten mental health. We do need to be aware of the mental health toll of the pandemic, but it appears to be more complicated than this simplistic idea that lockdowns are what cause mental health problems. See https://osf.io/d6cmv/
    When you say simplistic you mean simple, self evident and true. "In England, psychological distress was elevated, and wellbeing lower,during the COVID-19 pandemic compared to population norms" from your link seems about right.
    Is that during the pandemic as a whole, rather than specifically just during the lockdowns?
    Complicated

    "Levels of distress somewhatmirroredcase numbers in Englandand periods of greater restrictions, howeverwe cannot separate theinfluence of these two factors. There are some notable exceptionswhere distress and wellbeing didnot follow the pattern of restrictions. For example, distress (as measured by PHQ4) increased following the re-opening of hospitality venues on 4 July 2020.Distress also increased in women after legal restrictions were lifted on 19 July 2021.Furthermore, wellbeing peaked in June 2020 while the English population were still under strict lockdown measures. One reason for this could be the warm and sunny weather experienced at that time..." and so on.
  • boulayboulay Posts: 5,486
    kinabalu said:

    Taz said:

    kinabalu said:

    Loved this in The Guardian’s list of the year’s 50 best tv shows:

    37.
    Blair and Brown: The New Labour Revolution
    (BBC Two)

    … It is an inside job, with Labour veterans as unreliable narrators. Brown’s speechwriter Douglas Alexander even says: “They were literally the Lennon and McCartney of British politics.” Rubbish. They were more like Wham!, with no George Michael and two Andrew Ridgeleys.

    https://www.theguardian.com/tv-and-radio/2021/dec/03/the-50-best-tv-shows-of-2021

    And Rubber Soul is literally the National Minimum Wage of British pop music.
    My favourite Beatles album, I’d have to say best of the Beatles.
    It's not my fav - Abbey Rd is - but I do like it a lot. Rubber Soul is also the only Beatles LP I don't physically have. Reason being, many years ago, I was drinking on the Kings Rd and had my keys and wallet stolen. Hightailed it in a taxi back but these guys were so quick that by the time I got there they'd been in and out. One of the things stolen was my CD player along with the CD that happened to be in it - which was Rubber Soul. Not the greatest thing to have happened In My Life but I guess it might have been worse if I'd disturbed them.
    Whilst you were in that taxi on the long and winding road you must have just been desperate to get back…..
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,134
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    The logical thing for disaffected Tories to do, assuming they live in the right seats, is indeed to go LD.

    But LDs will need to do a better job of positioning themselves as a moderating influence on Labour.

    They also need to develop a more realistic policy on Brexit.
    I think most people (including me) think that is a debate of little interest if you are a floating voter. At the moment I could go Tory if they have a sensible leader, LD or Labour if they convince me they have seen off Corbynites. If there was a GE tomorrow I would vote LD
    I think you are wrong there. There are many people like me who cannot vote for Johnson but who would never vote for such a pro-EU party. They already have the pro-EU vote. What they need to do is retain it whilst softening their position so they don't frighten off potential new voters. Right now my vote is still firmly in the spoiled ballot territory.
    I would have thought you were more likely to be RefUK than any of the main parties anyway
    Nope. They have too much baggage. I am not looking for parties to be perfect but there are too many fundamental flaws with all of them at the moment - even those I have some agreement with on some areas.
    You are basically like Peter Hitchens, the parties have to be pure or you won't back them.

    That might work under PR where 10 or more parties could win seats, it will not work under FPTP unfortunately where the big 3 win almost all the seats outside Scotland where the SNP dominate
    Nope. Looks like you are incapable of reading basic English. Or rather you ignore what people say when you don't want to have to address it. I specifically said "I am not looking for parties to be perfect but there are too many fundamental flaws with all of them at the moment"

    You might be happy blindly voting for a party in spite of all its failings - indeed you exhibit daily on here that you do. Sensible people do not.
    If I recall you voted UKIP in 2015 so are perfectly happy to vote for a party when you consider it is in tune with you ideologically.

    Indeed UKIP seems the only party you have ever voted for with any enthusiasm, so my original statement RefUK is probably your best bet is not far off the mark
    H, so what is your hunch right now on Johnson? Is it more likely than not (iyo) that he goes next year?
  • boulayboulay Posts: 5,486
    IshmaelZ said:

    boulay said:

    Taz said:

    kinabalu said:

    Loved this in The Guardian’s list of the year’s 50 best tv shows:

    37.
    Blair and Brown: The New Labour Revolution
    (BBC Two)

    … It is an inside job, with Labour veterans as unreliable narrators. Brown’s speechwriter Douglas Alexander even says: “They were literally the Lennon and McCartney of British politics.” Rubbish. They were more like Wham!, with no George Michael and two Andrew Ridgeleys.

    https://www.theguardian.com/tv-and-radio/2021/dec/03/the-50-best-tv-shows-of-2021

    And Rubber Soul is literally the National Minimum Wage of British pop music.
    My favourite Beatles album, I’d have to say best of the Beatles.
    But then there’s “Wings”, the band the Beatles could have been…..
    I am coming to the view that Harrison was the only one with any discernible talent.

    We are talking about an album with "Michelle" on it ffs. Anyone want to defend that?
    Sorry - I wasn’t being serious - just exchanging Alan Partridge quotes with Taz.
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830
    boulay said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    boulay said:

    Taz said:

    kinabalu said:

    Loved this in The Guardian’s list of the year’s 50 best tv shows:

    37.
    Blair and Brown: The New Labour Revolution
    (BBC Two)

    … It is an inside job, with Labour veterans as unreliable narrators. Brown’s speechwriter Douglas Alexander even says: “They were literally the Lennon and McCartney of British politics.” Rubbish. They were more like Wham!, with no George Michael and two Andrew Ridgeleys.

    https://www.theguardian.com/tv-and-radio/2021/dec/03/the-50-best-tv-shows-of-2021

    And Rubber Soul is literally the National Minimum Wage of British pop music.
    My favourite Beatles album, I’d have to say best of the Beatles.
    But then there’s “Wings”, the band the Beatles could have been…..
    I am coming to the view that Harrison was the only one with any discernible talent.

    We are talking about an album with "Michelle" on it ffs. Anyone want to defend that?
    Sorry - I wasn’t being serious - just exchanging Alan Partridge quotes with Taz.
    Yes I know
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 32,520
    edited December 2021

    The only person that is allowed to vote Tory is @HYUFD.

    He’s going to be shocked when learns I’ve voted Tory before

    I am shamed to have to admit I have never voted Labour before after what you have said about my lack of ideological partisanship. That said I do perhaps redeem myself by once having been a member of Plaid Cymru back in the early 80s as the PC club in Cardiff was the only place you could get a drink on a Sunday evening. I have also voted both Green and LD in my dim and distant past at a local level.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,424

    Ooh, a sub-sample thread! How exciting.

    (“cross-heads” ha ha)

    Love the new photo Stuart, hope you are well
    I like to feature my favourite politicians. Yes thank you, in absolutely top form.

    Our adult kids have now turned up, so the house is once again whole. Fantastic feeling. Tomorrow is the Big Day in Sweden (and in most of Europe), so I’ll not be online much. After the dog walk it’ll be glögg, then Bollinger (been an exceedingly good year), then a lovely evening with the family.

    God jul. Guid yule!
    Enjoy the family time!
    Nadolig Llawen
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 21,298
    Blair and Brown was amazing due to its unrivalled access, but ultimately too hagiographic.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,918
    edited December 2021
    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    The logical thing for disaffected Tories to do, assuming they live in the right seats, is indeed to go LD.

    But LDs will need to do a better job of positioning themselves as a moderating influence on Labour.

    They also need to develop a more realistic policy on Brexit.
    I think most people (including me) think that is a debate of little interest if you are a floating voter. At the moment I could go Tory if they have a sensible leader, LD or Labour if they convince me they have seen off Corbynites. If there was a GE tomorrow I would vote LD
    I think you are wrong there. There are many people like me who cannot vote for Johnson but who would never vote for such a pro-EU party. They already have the pro-EU vote. What they need to do is retain it whilst softening their position so they don't frighten off potential new voters. Right now my vote is still firmly in the spoiled ballot territory.
    I would have thought you were more likely to be RefUK than any of the main parties anyway
    Nope. They have too much baggage. I am not looking for parties to be perfect but there are too many fundamental flaws with all of them at the moment - even those I have some agreement with on some areas.
    You are basically like Peter Hitchens, the parties have to be pure or you won't back them.

    That might work under PR where 10 or more parties could win seats, it will not work under FPTP unfortunately where the big 3 win almost all the seats outside Scotland where the SNP dominate
    NI no longer part of the UK, then.
    2 parties dominate in NI too, DUP and SF at FPTP Westminster elections
  • Ooh, a sub-sample thread! How exciting.

    (“cross-heads” ha ha)

    Love the new photo Stuart, hope you are well
    I like to feature my favourite politicians. Yes thank you, in absolutely top form.

    Our adult kids have now turned up, so the house is once again whole. Fantastic feeling. Tomorrow is the Big Day in Sweden (and in most of Europe), so I’ll not be online much. After the dog walk it’ll be glögg, then Bollinger (been an exceedingly good year), then a lovely evening with the family.

    God jul. Guid yule!
    God Jul Stuart. Håper det er fylt med kjærlighet og lys.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,918
    edited December 2021
    kinabalu said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    The logical thing for disaffected Tories to do, assuming they live in the right seats, is indeed to go LD.

    But LDs will need to do a better job of positioning themselves as a moderating influence on Labour.

    They also need to develop a more realistic policy on Brexit.
    I think most people (including me) think that is a debate of little interest if you are a floating voter. At the moment I could go Tory if they have a sensible leader, LD or Labour if they convince me they have seen off Corbynites. If there was a GE tomorrow I would vote LD
    I think you are wrong there. There are many people like me who cannot vote for Johnson but who would never vote for such a pro-EU party. They already have the pro-EU vote. What they need to do is retain it whilst softening their position so they don't frighten off potential new voters. Right now my vote is still firmly in the spoiled ballot territory.
    I would have thought you were more likely to be RefUK than any of the main parties anyway
    Nope. They have too much baggage. I am not looking for parties to be perfect but there are too many fundamental flaws with all of them at the moment - even those I have some agreement with on some areas.
    You are basically like Peter Hitchens, the parties have to be pure or you won't back them.

    That might work under PR where 10 or more parties could win seats, it will not work under FPTP unfortunately where the big 3 win almost all the seats outside Scotland where the SNP dominate
    Nope. Looks like you are incapable of reading basic English. Or rather you ignore what people say when you don't want to have to address it. I specifically said "I am not looking for parties to be perfect but there are too many fundamental flaws with all of them at the moment"

    You might be happy blindly voting for a party in spite of all its failings - indeed you exhibit daily on here that you do. Sensible people do not.
    If I recall you voted UKIP in 2015 so are perfectly happy to vote for a party when you consider it is in tune with you ideologically.

    Indeed UKIP seems the only party you have ever voted for with any enthusiasm, so my original statement RefUK is probably your best bet is not far off the mark
    H, so what is your hunch right now on Johnson? Is it more likely than not (iyo) that he goes next year?
    The success of the booster programme and the avoidance of further restrictions means he is safer now than last week
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,134
    boulay said:

    kinabalu said:

    Taz said:

    kinabalu said:

    Loved this in The Guardian’s list of the year’s 50 best tv shows:

    37.
    Blair and Brown: The New Labour Revolution
    (BBC Two)

    … It is an inside job, with Labour veterans as unreliable narrators. Brown’s speechwriter Douglas Alexander even says: “They were literally the Lennon and McCartney of British politics.” Rubbish. They were more like Wham!, with no George Michael and two Andrew Ridgeleys.

    https://www.theguardian.com/tv-and-radio/2021/dec/03/the-50-best-tv-shows-of-2021

    And Rubber Soul is literally the National Minimum Wage of British pop music.
    My favourite Beatles album, I’d have to say best of the Beatles.
    It's not my fav - Abbey Rd is - but I do like it a lot. Rubber Soul is also the only Beatles LP I don't physically have. Reason being, many years ago, I was drinking on the Kings Rd and had my keys and wallet stolen. Hightailed it in a taxi back but these guys were so quick that by the time I got there they'd been in and out. One of the things stolen was my CD player along with the CD that happened to be in it - which was Rubber Soul. Not the greatest thing to have happened In My Life but I guess it might have been worse if I'd disturbed them.
    Whilst you were in that taxi on the long and winding road you must have just been desperate to get back…..
    Yep, and I was in a panic already as I flagged it down. "Help!" I was going, "help!"

    Sorry, best I can do. :smile:
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,424
    HYUFD said:

    kinabalu said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    The logical thing for disaffected Tories to do, assuming they live in the right seats, is indeed to go LD.

    But LDs will need to do a better job of positioning themselves as a moderating influence on Labour.

    They also need to develop a more realistic policy on Brexit.
    I think most people (including me) think that is a debate of little interest if you are a floating voter. At the moment I could go Tory if they have a sensible leader, LD or Labour if they convince me they have seen off Corbynites. If there was a GE tomorrow I would vote LD
    I think you are wrong there. There are many people like me who cannot vote for Johnson but who would never vote for such a pro-EU party. They already have the pro-EU vote. What they need to do is retain it whilst softening their position so they don't frighten off potential new voters. Right now my vote is still firmly in the spoiled ballot territory.
    I would have thought you were more likely to be RefUK than any of the main parties anyway
    Nope. They have too much baggage. I am not looking for parties to be perfect but there are too many fundamental flaws with all of them at the moment - even those I have some agreement with on some areas.
    You are basically like Peter Hitchens, the parties have to be pure or you won't back them.

    That might work under PR where 10 or more parties could win seats, it will not work under FPTP unfortunately where the big 3 win almost all the seats outside Scotland where the SNP dominate
    Nope. Looks like you are incapable of reading basic English. Or rather you ignore what people say when you don't want to have to address it. I specifically said "I am not looking for parties to be perfect but there are too many fundamental flaws with all of them at the moment"

    You might be happy blindly voting for a party in spite of all its failings - indeed you exhibit daily on here that you do. Sensible people do not.
    If I recall you voted UKIP in 2015 so are perfectly happy to vote for a party when you consider it is in tune with you ideologically.

    Indeed UKIP seems the only party you have ever voted for with any enthusiasm, so my original statement RefUK is probably your best bet is not far off the mark
    H, so what is your hunch right now on Johnson? Is it more likely than not (iyo) that he goes next year?
    The success of the booster programme and the avoidance of further restrictions means he is safer now than last week
    Possibly, marginally, but the jokes and the abuse mean he's on the way out. I sincerely hope that his (or a) successor doesn't suggest he's ennobled.

    It's good that no PM since Mrs T, and few before her have been
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,134
    HYUFD said:

    kinabalu said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    The logical thing for disaffected Tories to do, assuming they live in the right seats, is indeed to go LD.

    But LDs will need to do a better job of positioning themselves as a moderating influence on Labour.

    They also need to develop a more realistic policy on Brexit.
    I think most people (including me) think that is a debate of little interest if you are a floating voter. At the moment I could go Tory if they have a sensible leader, LD or Labour if they convince me they have seen off Corbynites. If there was a GE tomorrow I would vote LD
    I think you are wrong there. There are many people like me who cannot vote for Johnson but who would never vote for such a pro-EU party. They already have the pro-EU vote. What they need to do is retain it whilst softening their position so they don't frighten off potential new voters. Right now my vote is still firmly in the spoiled ballot territory.
    I would have thought you were more likely to be RefUK than any of the main parties anyway
    Nope. They have too much baggage. I am not looking for parties to be perfect but there are too many fundamental flaws with all of them at the moment - even those I have some agreement with on some areas.
    You are basically like Peter Hitchens, the parties have to be pure or you won't back them.

    That might work under PR where 10 or more parties could win seats, it will not work under FPTP unfortunately where the big 3 win almost all the seats outside Scotland where the SNP dominate
    Nope. Looks like you are incapable of reading basic English. Or rather you ignore what people say when you don't want to have to address it. I specifically said "I am not looking for parties to be perfect but there are too many fundamental flaws with all of them at the moment"

    You might be happy blindly voting for a party in spite of all its failings - indeed you exhibit daily on here that you do. Sensible people do not.
    If I recall you voted UKIP in 2015 so are perfectly happy to vote for a party when you consider it is in tune with you ideologically.

    Indeed UKIP seems the only party you have ever voted for with any enthusiasm, so my original statement RefUK is probably your best bet is not far off the mark
    H, so what is your hunch right now on Johnson? Is it more likely than not (iyo) that he goes next year?
    The success of the booster programme and the avoidance of further restrictions means he is safer now than last week
    Yes, I think that's behind the market movement.

    Can I not tempt you to say whether him going in 22 is iyo a better than 50% chance or less than a 50% chance or about a 50% chance?
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,248
    kyf_100 said:

    "Respirators, which includes masks known as N95, FFP2 and others, should especially be worn in care settings where ventilation is known to be poor."-
    @DrTedros

    Again, simple public health advice that the government haven't being pushing.

    Should require FFP2 on public transport
    Doesn't matter if it's FFP2 or FFP2000 if people wear them on their chins.
    If you are wearing a vaguely well fitted* FFP2/3 then that is *their* problem.

    *I find is extraordinary that people can't work out how to fit these - they were/are, after all, successfully used by rubble sack carriers (lowest of the low) on building sites.
  • rpjsrpjs Posts: 3,787
    DavidL said:

    TimT said:

    Is this the very definition of irony? Congresswoman who supported defund the police carjacked in crime-surging Philadelphia:

    https://www.foxnews.com/politics/democratic-congresswoman-defund-police-carjacked-in-crime-surging-philadelphia

    I used to think like that until I appreciated that those who want to defund the police want to defund this police force on the grounds that it is f******* useless and replace it with something better. She may well conclude that being carjacked rather makes her point rather than detracting from it.
    The Philly PD does have a pretty appalling record! "The city that bombed itself".
  • maaarshmaaarsh Posts: 3,590
    London hospitalisations excluding transfers DOWN to 220 from 227.

    EVERYTHING IS FINE, SORRY SAGE.
  • maaarshmaaarsh Posts: 3,590
    New case record, but London cases down.
  • FairlieredFairliered Posts: 4,931

    Ooh, a sub-sample thread! How exciting.

    (“cross-heads” ha ha)

    Love the new photo Stuart, hope you are well
    I like to feature my favourite politicians. Yes thank you, in absolutely top form.

    Our adult kids have now turned up, so the house is once again whole. Fantastic feeling. Tomorrow is the Big Day in Sweden (and in most of Europe), so I’ll not be online much. After the dog walk it’ll be glögg, then Bollinger (been an exceedingly good year), then a lovely evening with the family.

    God jul. Guid yule!

    Ooh, a sub-sample thread! How exciting.

    (“cross-heads” ha ha)

    Love the new photo Stuart, hope you are well
    I like to feature my favourite politicians. Yes thank you, in absolutely top form.

    Our adult kids have now turned up, so the house is once again whole. Fantastic feeling. Tomorrow is the Big Day in Sweden (and in most of Europe), so I’ll not be online much. After the dog walk it’ll be glögg, then Bollinger (been an exceedingly good year), then a lovely evening with the family.

    God jul. Guid yule!
    God jul to you too Stuart. Enjoy the glögg!
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 81,989
    edited December 2021
    119,789 cases...147 deaths.
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 22,011

    119,789 cases...147 deaths.

    Yesterday's number corrected upwards to 109,655
  • MaxPB said:

    Right, that's me done for the year PB, see everyone on the other side. Heading off to my parents place for the next week or so, have a merry Christmas and happy new year people. Last word of the year - jab early and jab often!

    Merry Xmas. Hope Santa is good to you.
  • maaarshmaaarsh Posts: 3,590
    Another new record low for ventilator beds since October.
  • maaarshmaaarsh Posts: 3,590

    119,789 cases...147 deaths.

    Yesterday's number corrected upwards to 109,655
    Presumably that's Scotland?
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 22,011
    maaarsh said:

    New case record, but London cases down.

    All the twenty-somethings are already back at their parents' place?

  • rpjsrpjs Posts: 3,787

    The only person that is allowed to vote Tory is @HYUFD.

    He’s going to be shocked when learns I’ve voted Tory before

    I am shamed to have to admit I have never voted Labour before after what you have said about my lack of ideological partisanship. That said I do perhaps redeem myself by once having been a member of Plaid Cymru back in the early 80s as the PC club in Cardiff was the only place you could get a drink on a Sunday evening. I have also voted both Green and LD in my dim and distant past at a local level.
    I once voted Plaid in a straight PC vs Labour contest while I was at college. I had planned to vote Labour, despite being mates with one of the more prominent Plaid members there, but then the night before the poll, the Labour candidate drove his car into the quad around 11pm and blasted out calls to vote for him on his loudspeaker.

    Of course, looking back, that could have been a dirty trick by Plaid, but it would have definitely been something the Labour candidate, who was known for his eccentricity, might have thought was a good idea at the time.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 23,145
    Scott_xP said:

    Taz said:

    I think he thing with Truss is many have forgotten her remainer credentials due to her current trajectory.

    Janet McCollum, CEO of Moy Park Northern Ireland's biggest employer, clear EU Single Market vital for their business https://twitter.com/trussliz/status/730760481049350144/photo/1


    Starting today, Germany will release a daily Omicron update:

    - Cases: 3,198
    - Reinfected: 54
    - Hospitalized: 48
    - Deaths: 1

    https://twitter.com/BNODesk/status/1474038395852754947?s=20

    What's the estimate for the % of cases they care catching with tests?

    Or is this a population study?

    Tx
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,424
    rpjs said:

    The only person that is allowed to vote Tory is @HYUFD.

    He’s going to be shocked when learns I’ve voted Tory before

    I am shamed to have to admit I have never voted Labour before after what you have said about my lack of ideological partisanship. That said I do perhaps redeem myself by once having been a member of Plaid Cymru back in the early 80s as the PC club in Cardiff was the only place you could get a drink on a Sunday evening. I have also voted both Green and LD in my dim and distant past at a local level.
    I once voted Plaid in a straight PC vs Labour contest while I was at college. I had planned to vote Labour, despite being mates with one of the more prominent Plaid members there, but then the night before the poll, the Labour candidate drove his car into the quad around 11pm and blasted out calls to vote for him on his loudspeaker.

    Of course, looking back, that could have been a dirty trick by Plaid, but it would have definitely been something the Labour candidate, who was known for his eccentricity, might have thought was a good idea at the time.
    Who won?
  • NerysHughesNerysHughes Posts: 3,375

    Blair and Brown was amazing due to its unrivalled access, but ultimately too hagiographic.

    hagiographic - thats a new word on me!
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,523

    The only person that is allowed to vote Tory is @HYUFD.

    He’s going to be shocked when learns I’ve voted Tory before

    I am shamed to have to admit I have never voted Labour before after what you have said about my lack of ideological partisanship. That said I do perhaps redeem myself by once having been a member of Plaid Cymru back in the early 80s as the PC club in Cardiff was the only place you could get a drink on a Sunday evening. I have also voted both Green and LD in my dim and distant past at a local level.
    Always time to complete your set, Richard! Anyway, very happy Christmas to you and yours.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,918
    rpjs said:

    The only person that is allowed to vote Tory is @HYUFD.

    He’s going to be shocked when learns I’ve voted Tory before

    I am shamed to have to admit I have never voted Labour before after what you have said about my lack of ideological partisanship. That said I do perhaps redeem myself by once having been a member of Plaid Cymru back in the early 80s as the PC club in Cardiff was the only place you could get a drink on a Sunday evening. I have also voted both Green and LD in my dim and distant past at a local level.
    I once voted Plaid in a straight PC vs Labour contest while I was at college. I had planned to vote Labour, despite being mates with one of the more prominent Plaid members there, but then the night before the poll, the Labour candidate drove his car into the quad around 11pm and blasted out calls to vote for him on his loudspeaker.

    Of course, looking back, that could have been a dirty trick by Plaid, but it would have definitely been something the Labour candidate, who was known for his eccentricity, might have thought was a good idea at the time.
    Believe it or not I once also voted Plaid. When I was at Aberystwyth there were not enough Tory candidates for all the town council posts and as I always use all my votes I voted for a Plaid candidate who had canvassed me
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,918
    kinabalu said:

    HYUFD said:

    kinabalu said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    The logical thing for disaffected Tories to do, assuming they live in the right seats, is indeed to go LD.

    But LDs will need to do a better job of positioning themselves as a moderating influence on Labour.

    They also need to develop a more realistic policy on Brexit.
    I think most people (including me) think that is a debate of little interest if you are a floating voter. At the moment I could go Tory if they have a sensible leader, LD or Labour if they convince me they have seen off Corbynites. If there was a GE tomorrow I would vote LD
    I think you are wrong there. There are many people like me who cannot vote for Johnson but who would never vote for such a pro-EU party. They already have the pro-EU vote. What they need to do is retain it whilst softening their position so they don't frighten off potential new voters. Right now my vote is still firmly in the spoiled ballot territory.
    I would have thought you were more likely to be RefUK than any of the main parties anyway
    Nope. They have too much baggage. I am not looking for parties to be perfect but there are too many fundamental flaws with all of them at the moment - even those I have some agreement with on some areas.
    You are basically like Peter Hitchens, the parties have to be pure or you won't back them.

    That might work under PR where 10 or more parties could win seats, it will not work under FPTP unfortunately where the big 3 win almost all the seats outside Scotland where the SNP dominate
    Nope. Looks like you are incapable of reading basic English. Or rather you ignore what people say when you don't want to have to address it. I specifically said "I am not looking for parties to be perfect but there are too many fundamental flaws with all of them at the moment"

    You might be happy blindly voting for a party in spite of all its failings - indeed you exhibit daily on here that you do. Sensible people do not.
    If I recall you voted UKIP in 2015 so are perfectly happy to vote for a party when you consider it is in tune with you ideologically.

    Indeed UKIP seems the only party you have ever voted for with any enthusiasm, so my original statement RefUK is probably your best bet is not far off the mark
    H, so what is your hunch right now on Johnson? Is it more likely than not (iyo) that he goes next year?
    The success of the booster programme and the avoidance of further restrictions means he is safer now than last week
    Yes, I think that's behind the market movement.

    Can I not tempt you to say whether him going in 22 is iyo a better than 50% chance or less than a 50% chance or about a 50% chance?
    About 50% but unless Sunak replaces him there is little point, he is the only one who might get a bounce, the others might do worse
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    maaarsh said:

    119,789 cases...147 deaths.

    Yesterday's number corrected upwards to 109,655
    Presumably that's Scotland?
    Yes, revised upwards to 5,967 from 2500 ish
  • rpjsrpjs Posts: 3,787
    edited December 2021

    rpjs said:

    The only person that is allowed to vote Tory is @HYUFD.

    He’s going to be shocked when learns I’ve voted Tory before

    I am shamed to have to admit I have never voted Labour before after what you have said about my lack of ideological partisanship. That said I do perhaps redeem myself by once having been a member of Plaid Cymru back in the early 80s as the PC club in Cardiff was the only place you could get a drink on a Sunday evening. I have also voted both Green and LD in my dim and distant past at a local level.
    I once voted Plaid in a straight PC vs Labour contest while I was at college. I had planned to vote Labour, despite being mates with one of the more prominent Plaid members there, but then the night before the poll, the Labour candidate drove his car into the quad around 11pm and blasted out calls to vote for him on his loudspeaker.

    Of course, looking back, that could have been a dirty trick by Plaid, but it would have definitely been something the Labour candidate, who was known for his eccentricity, might have thought was a good idea at the time.
    Who won?
    I think it was the Labour guy. He was pretty popular as he owned the only record shop in the villagetown. Looks like he's still on Ceredigion County Council. This would have been for the 1989 election to the then Dyfed CC. ETA: Wikipedia has the results, and it was the Labour candidate that won.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,248
    edited December 2021
    UK cases by specimen date

    image
  • TazTaz Posts: 14,376

    Blair and Brown was amazing due to its unrivalled access, but ultimately too hagiographic.

    hagiographic - thats a new word on me!
    It’s an old Private Eye term IIRC.
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    maaarsh said:

    Another new record low for ventilator beds since October.

    Due to a processing delay, the update does not include new healthcare data for England. Data will be added later.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,248
    UK cases by specimen date and scaled to 100K

    image
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,248
    UK R

    image
This discussion has been closed.