So all of this over a possible 3k hospitalisations per day under the same model that got the 7k per day wrong last time out?
The hundred Tory politicians need to hold firm and tell Boris and to get fucked. No more lockdowns, no more restrictions, no more tyranny of unelected experts.
Unelected experts > Elected morons. You're seriously more happy with the our fate in the hands of the geniuses who make plugging Peppa Pig part of government policy?
Any day of the week, I can vote out the Peppa pig crew if I disagree with them. I have no way of voting out the expert class. Your faith in them is disturbing, it's sad that so many British people are so comfortable with living in a technocratic country where they have zero influence on the big decisions of the day.
Whilst I appreciate the sentiment, there is a basic issue of competence. Doctors, scientists, medics are capable of diagnosing if that lump on your bollock is cancerous or not. A gob on legs Tory MP ideologically focused on getting you and your cancerous testes back to work is not.
So whilst you want want to listen to the person saying "its fine, back to work" the problem is that they don't have the first fucking clue what they are saying. Which is why the couple of MPs who have said "we've had enough of these unelected Doctors, listen to us elected people and our Prime Minister" are being so roundly laughed at.
I appreciate this sentiment, but you are assuming that true expertise can be acquired in all disciplines. There are disciplines, such as law, aviation, and medicine, where the processes involved are either linear, or (if the processes are complex and adaptive) there are enough instances of them and hence enough data that we can indeed accumulate expertise. Fire fighters and naval aviators are good examples of such experts in complex adaptive systems.
But then there are Black Swans, like a once in a century pandemic, that are both complex adaptive systems and are rare enough that no-one has the data sets from which to acquire expertise. COVID's impact on society at large is one such example.
No-one, not even the best scientists who have genuine expertise in their defined disciplines, is expert on what approach is best for COVID at a societal level. Everyone is stabbing in the dark.
So spare me this have faith in the 'experts'. No-one is expert - some are just better at faking it.
Sure. But we're being offered a choice between the experts who may have bits of it wrong or MPs with no training who may be lucky to guess a fraction of it right.
So I back the experts. Their wrong is worth more than a gobshite ideologue MP's right.
Look, I did modelling (the Excel kind) for 20 years as a professional career. I can tell you this now that this idea that the ‘model is right’ or ‘follow the numbers / science’ is bollocks. Models are not neutral beings, they reflect the biases of their creators. Which is why you take 20 financial analysts’ models of the same company and they will have 20 different outcomes.
If you blindly trust the experts, you are as much of an idiot as those who blindly trust politicians.
(((Dan Hodges))) @DPJHodges · 1h Understand people's Omicron concerns. But we were told vaccines would remove the need for lockdowns. If that's no longer the case, OK. But we need to have a serious debate. Because I just don't see how a cycle of perpetually locking, then unlocking, society is sustainable.
Eventually COVID is going to become less lethal as variants develop that don't kill people as much but still spread quickly, meaning it gives immunity from the more lethal kinds. In addition vaccines will get better like they have for the flu. As we transition to that we will still have lockdowns but they will be fewer, shorter and further between.
Eventually we will have none at all, but this process is going to take years. But part of the problem is that 21st Century Westerners are pampered in more luxury, entertainment and general pleasure seeking than anyone else in human history. They are too soft mentally to get through this.
Didn’t we have this line of argument last year, the old “it will become less lethal so we can all get back to normal etc etc” yet here we are having another major lockdown and everyone talking about how Omicrom could be as lethal as previous variants. I’m sure next year - when we have another variant - this same old trope will be rolled out again to justify another lockdown.
More accurate to say "yet here we are with everyone speculating we're going to have another major lockdown."
And reading things wrong imo. Because we're not.
You're either delusionally optimistic, or you have such a strict definition of lockdown it doesn't include "shutting all indoor hospitality, imposing the rule of 6, everyone work from home"
Which is it? I would genuinely like to know, because from my perspective we are certainly going to get a Plan C, very soon, and it's beginning to look a lot like Lockdown
This is why the Tory party was so against plan b, it sets us on the path to more and more restrictions. If the mindset is "this will make a difference" and it doesn't then you need the next thing that will "make a difference" and so on until, like the Netherlands, you've got to a full lockdown because the government doesn't have the stones to say it doesn't care if the unvaccinated by choice kick the bucket at home.
But it won't just be the unvaccinated. If the NHS is overwhelmed, cancer treatments are delayed, A&E incidents take days to get to, more people die.
They whole point is that if you let the fools who rejected the vaccine die at home the NHS doesn't get overwhelmed. Simply refuse them treatment.
(((Dan Hodges))) @DPJHodges · 1h Understand people's Omicron concerns. But we were told vaccines would remove the need for lockdowns. If that's no longer the case, OK. But we need to have a serious debate. Because I just don't see how a cycle of perpetually locking, then unlocking, society is sustainable.
Eventually COVID is going to become less lethal as variants develop that don't kill people as much but still spread quickly, meaning it gives immunity from the more lethal kinds. In addition vaccines will get better like they have for the flu. As we transition to that we will still have lockdowns but they will be fewer, shorter and further between.
Eventually we will have none at all, but this process is going to take years. But part of the problem is that 21st Century Westerners are pampered in more luxury, entertainment and general pleasure seeking than anyone else in human history. They are too soft mentally to get through this.
Didn’t we have this line of argument last year, the old “it will become less lethal so we can all get back to normal etc etc” yet here we are having another major lockdown and everyone talking about how Omicrom could be as lethal as previous variants. I’m sure next year - when we have another variant - this same old trope will be rolled out again to justify another lockdown.
More accurate to say "yet here we are with everyone speculating we're going to have another major lockdown."
And reading things wrong imo. Because we're not.
You're either delusionally optimistic, or you have such a strict definition of lockdown it doesn't include "shutting all indoor hospitality, imposing the rule of 6, everyone work from home"
Which is it? I would genuinely like to know, because from my perspective we are certainly going to get a Plan C, very soon, and it's beginning to look a lot like Lockdown
This is why the Tory party was so against plan b, it sets us on the path to more and more restrictions. If the mindset is "this will make a difference" and it doesn't then you need the next thing that will "make a difference" and so on until, like the Netherlands, you've got to a full lockdown because the government doesn't have the stones to say it doesn't care if the unvaccinated by choice kick the bucket at home.
The Dutch have now got a near four week hard lockdown. In the depths of a north European winter. It will likely be extended. They are torturing their own people, to protect the stupid and selfish, and we are entering the third year of this shite
Like many readers of history, I've always wondered how and why advanced, educated countries tolerated the absurd, surreal horrors of the First World War. By the end of 1914 it was clear no one was going to "win easily", and that millions of young men would die in futile squalor
Yet families kept on sending their sons, month after month, year after year, to be fed into the Flanders meat grinder (and on other fronts too) and the people at home tolerated this insanity. Indeed, life went on as "normal"
- until it didn't, in places like Russia
Because it was better than German domination.
But a truce, if called in Christmas 1914, would have saved millions of lives and billions of pounds/marks on both sides (and might have prevented the rise of communism and Nazism)
And yet, on and on it went. An all-embracing disaster
Looks like just over a million jabs a day is probably going to be max.
They won't make target / aspiration, but will get a hell of a lot done.
It was a stupid target
The purpose of a target is to push yourself towards it.
If things had been left to the NHS we would still be down at 200k per day.
It is the Tories' fault we're in the booster hole, they spent all Summer doing sod all
Given what we now know about boosters, if we had boostered oldies in the summer, we would be doing them again now.
Should we have done kids during the summer holidays. Yes. But JCVI recommendations said no.
Should we have done oldies slightly earlier and faster, and a wider group of oldies. Yes. But JCVI rules recommendations said no.
You partisanship some times is way OTT.
Why am only I attacked for partisanship even when I'm making a fairly reasonable point? I don't see you attacking Tories
In this specific instance it isn't reasonable to expect a government to overturn the decision of an independent medical advisory committee. No sensible politician would, otherwise you get into Trump territory of advising bleach and giving anti-vaxxer massive amounts of ammunition.
I have spent the past 2 years consistently pointing out the dumb shit the government have done time and time again. Go and check my 60k posts, there are absolutely loads of posts saying, FFS Boris has bottled a lockdown, he is leaving it too late. I was also massively critical of the idea of the tier system. I said we should have had border restrictions straight away during March 2020....I advocated for the sort of scheme Australia have employed....I said the government needed to kick SAGE up the arse in the summer and have them actually making a plan, when in fact they didn't meet for 2 months...
I could go on and on and on.
Agreed. The truth is, we don't know how bad Omicron will be. With vaccines the landing point for hospitalisations and serious illness is likely to be between somewhat better than Delta without vaccines and somewhat worse. That's what serious and informed people investigating this are coming up with, not all of whom can be dismissed because they don't accord with our prejudices.
If we collectively think we are not prepared to do another lockdown and will take whatever Omicron throws at us, that's a valid decision to make. But let's not say, we're not doing another lockdown, and then do it anyway as the hospital system buckles under the strain.
But the totally INFURIATING thing is that UKG has made virtually no attempt to punish, tax or chide the antivaxxers into getting the jab. They are the reason we are back in the shit. Look at @foxy's post today - every Covid victim in his ICU is unvaxxed
WHY is the government so totally spineless on this issue? Fear of being seen as racist? Fear of the "libertarian lobby"?
Before they make my life miserable, and condemn my kids to more damaged mental health, perhaps the fucking government could tackle the people who are causing all this shit, rather than jailing absolutely everyone
This is the smartest thing you've said on COVID recently. Governments sooner or later are going to have to be a lot tougher on the anti-vaxxers. One obvious thing to do is to deprioritize anti-vaxxers for NHS treatment.
I agree, but not your last sentence. That would be a slippery slope imo. (Next exclude, addicts, then those who caused their own injuries,... Where do you stop?)
Yes. If you say anti-vaxxers should be penalised, why not fat people for example (I’ll exclude smokers - given the tax on cigarettes, it can be argued they already are being penalised).
There's VAT on junk food
Food and drink for human consumption is usually zero-rated but some items are always standard-rated. These include catering, alcoholic drinks, confectionery, crisps and savoury snacks, hot food, sports drinks, hot takeaways, ice cream, soft drinks and mineral water.
Looks like just over a million jabs a day is probably going to be max.
They won't make target / aspiration, but will get a hell of a lot done.
It was a stupid target
The purpose of a target is to push yourself towards it.
If things had been left to the NHS we would still be down at 200k per day.
It is the Tories' fault we're in the booster hole, they spent all Summer doing sod all
Given what we now know about boosters, if we had boostered oldies in the summer, we would be doing them again now.
Should we have done kids during the summer holidays. Yes. But JCVI recommendations said no.
Should we have done oldies slightly earlier and faster, and a wider group of oldies. Yes. But JCVI rules recommendations said no.
You partisanship some times is way OTT.
Why am only I attacked for partisanship even when I'm making a fairly reasonable point? I don't see you attacking Tories
In this specific instance it isn't reasonable to expect a government to overturn the decision of an independent medical advisory committee. No sensible politician would, otherwise you get into Trump territory of advising bleach and giving anti-vaxxer massive amounts of ammunition.
I have spent the past 2 years consistently pointing out the dumb shit the government have done time and time again. Go and check my 60k posts, there are absolutely loads of posts saying, FFS Boris has bottled a lockdown, he is leaving it too late. I was also massively critical of the idea of the tier system. I said we should have had border restrictions straight away during March 2020....I advocated for the sort of scheme Australia have employed....I said the government needed to kick SAGE up the arse in the summer and have them actually making a plan, when in fact they didn't meet for 2 months...
I could go on and on and on.
Agreed. The truth is, we don't know how bad Omicron will be. With vaccines the landing point for hospitalisations and serious illness is likely to be between somewhat better than Delta without vaccines and somewhat worse. That's what serious and informed people investigating this are coming up with, not all of whom can be dismissed because they don't accord with our prejudices.
If we collectively think we are not prepared to do another lockdown and will take whatever Omicron throws at us, that's a valid decision to make. But let's not say, we're not doing another lockdown, and then do it anyway as the hospital system buckles under the strain.
But the totally INFURIATING thing is that UKG has made virtually no attempt to punish, tax or chide the antivaxxers into getting the jab. They are the reason we are back in the shit. Look at @foxy's post today - every Covid victim in his ICU is unvaxxed
WHY is the government so totally spineless on this issue? Fear of being seen as racist? Fear of the "libertarian lobby"?
Before they make my life miserable, and condemn my kids to more damaged mental health, perhaps the fucking government could tackle the people who are causing all this shit, rather than jailing absolutely everyone
This is the smartest thing you've said on COVID recently. Governments sooner or later are going to have to be a lot tougher on the anti-vaxxers. One obvious thing to do is to deprioritize anti-vaxxers for NHS treatment.
I agree, but not your last sentence. That would be a slippery slope imo. (Next exclude, addicts, then those who caused their own injuries,... Where do you stop?)
Yes. If you say anti-vaxxers should be penalised, why not fat people for example (I’ll exclude smokers - given the tax on cigarettes, it can be argued they already are being penalised).
There's a sugar tax on sugary drinks already. VAT is charged on confectionary but not most other foodstuffs. So I'd argue that already happens to an extent, and the extent might easily be extended in years to come with relatively little protest.
A hard lockdown will apply in the Netherlands from 5 a.m. tomorrow morning. Sources in The Hague confirm that the cabinet is adopting the advice of the Outbreak Management Team to close as many sectors as possible. In any case, the new measures will remain in force until January 14.
It was already clear that the OMT and the cabinet are very concerned about the rapid spread of the omikron variant of the coronavirus.
The experts advise closing almost everything: only essential shops such as supermarkets and pharmacies should remain open, sources in The Hague confirmed yesterday. The cabinet held emergency consultations this afternoon and has reportedly adopted the advice for the hard lockdown.
This means that the catering industry, non-essential shops and the sports and culture sector will have to close again. Pickup at shops and catering would remain possible. As far as the experts are concerned, all secondary schools and other educational institutions must also close. Primary schools have already closed early for the Christmas holidays.
'Four people at Christmas' The group size outside is reduced to a maximum of 2 people. A maximum of 2 visitors should also be allowed inside. Reportedly there will be an exception for Christmas: then 4 visitors are welcome. This exception would not apply to New Year's Eve.
The new measures will be explained in a press conference at 7 pm.
Yes, fine form. Having a quiet weekend at home. I am on call the holiday week so trying to keep bug free until the new year.
Short straw, eh. Have you no Hindu, Jewish, or Moslem colleagues who would cover for The Day itself? At one time I worked with a (fairly) devout Jewish pharmacist who would always cover for Christian (or nominally Christian) colleagues at major Christian holidays provided that they would cover for him on major Jewish ones. And if he wasn't needed he'd go off and find somewhere else that needed cover.
No, it was part of our leave negotiations so some colleagues could visit family overseas that they couldn't get to last Christmas. In return I got the pick of summer leave. I am not working on Christmas day nor the 26th, just the week after.
I don't particularly mind.
Fair enough, I'd have happily settled for that. And, of course, when running a community pharmacy, long years ago, often did. In those days New Years Day was an ordinary working day, too.
(((Dan Hodges))) @DPJHodges · 1h Understand people's Omicron concerns. But we were told vaccines would remove the need for lockdowns. If that's no longer the case, OK. But we need to have a serious debate. Because I just don't see how a cycle of perpetually locking, then unlocking, society is sustainable.
Eventually COVID is going to become less lethal as variants develop that don't kill people as much but still spread quickly, meaning it gives immunity from the more lethal kinds. In addition vaccines will get better like they have for the flu. As we transition to that we will still have lockdowns but they will be fewer, shorter and further between.
Eventually we will have none at all, but this process is going to take years. But part of the problem is that 21st Century Westerners are pampered in more luxury, entertainment and general pleasure seeking than anyone else in human history. They are too soft mentally to get through this.
Didn’t we have this line of argument last year, the old “it will become less lethal so we can all get back to normal etc etc” yet here we are having another major lockdown and everyone talking about how Omicrom could be as lethal as previous variants. I’m sure next year - when we have another variant - this same old trope will be rolled out again to justify another lockdown.
More accurate to say "yet here we are with everyone speculating we're going to have another major lockdown."
And reading things wrong imo. Because we're not.
You're either delusionally optimistic, or you have such a strict definition of lockdown it doesn't include "shutting all indoor hospitality, imposing the rule of 6, everyone work from home"
Which is it? I would genuinely like to know, because from my perspective we are certainly going to get a Plan C, very soon, and it's beginning to look a lot like Lockdown
This is why the Tory party was so against plan b, it sets us on the path to more and more restrictions. If the mindset is "this will make a difference" and it doesn't then you need the next thing that will "make a difference" and so on until, like the Netherlands, you've got to a full lockdown because the government doesn't have the stones to say it doesn't care if the unvaccinated by choice kick the bucket at home.
The Dutch have now got a near four week hard lockdown. In the depths of a north European winter. It will likely be extended. They are torturing their own people, to protect the stupid and selfish, and we are entering the third year of this shite
Like many readers of history, I've always wondered how and why advanced, educated countries tolerated the absurd, surreal horrors of the First World War. By the end of 1914 it was clear no one was going to "win easily", and that millions of young men would die in futile squalor
Yet families kept on sending their sons, month after month, year after year, to be fed into the Flanders meat grinder (and on other fronts too) and the people at home tolerated this insanity. Indeed, life went on as "normal"
- until it didn't, in places like Russia
Because it was better than German domination.
But a truce, if called in Christmas 1914, would have saved millions of lives and billions of pounds/marks on both sides (and might have prevented the rise of communism and Nazism)
And yet, on and on it went. An all-embracing disaster
Such a pessimist. Look at the bright side of the war. It (eventually) broke down the entire social system in the UK that kept all but a few trapped in their class.
Regarding the conversation about Sunak in the previous thread, I think being independently wealthy is a plus - it makes the candidate less susceptible to grifting opportunities. Thatcher was wealthy through her spouse.
You clearly haven't met the same sort of rich people as I have.
(((Dan Hodges))) @DPJHodges · 1h Understand people's Omicron concerns. But we were told vaccines would remove the need for lockdowns. If that's no longer the case, OK. But we need to have a serious debate. Because I just don't see how a cycle of perpetually locking, then unlocking, society is sustainable.
Eventually COVID is going to become less lethal as variants develop that don't kill people as much but still spread quickly, meaning it gives immunity from the more lethal kinds. In addition vaccines will get better like they have for the flu. As we transition to that we will still have lockdowns but they will be fewer, shorter and further between.
Eventually we will have none at all, but this process is going to take years. But part of the problem is that 21st Century Westerners are pampered in more luxury, entertainment and general pleasure seeking than anyone else in human history. They are too soft mentally to get through this.
Didn’t we have this line of argument last year, the old “it will become less lethal so we can all get back to normal etc etc” yet here we are having another major lockdown and everyone talking about how Omicrom could be as lethal as previous variants. I’m sure next year - when we have another variant - this same old trope will be rolled out again to justify another lockdown.
More accurate to say "yet here we are with everyone speculating we're going to have another major lockdown."
And reading things wrong imo. Because we're not.
You're either delusionally optimistic, or you have such a strict definition of lockdown it doesn't include "shutting all indoor hospitality, imposing the rule of 6, everyone work from home"
Which is it? I would genuinely like to know, because from my perspective we are certainly going to get a Plan C, very soon, and it's beginning to look a lot like Lockdown
I'm certainly not a kooky optimist. I have a pretty good record on 'govt covid action' prediction.
But ok, there is definition leeway here. Let's firm up. I don't think there'll be rule of 6, nor the closing down of hospitality. WFH is a certainty imo but guidance not law.
I'm not quite as confident as I've been before though, this is true. And it looks like bad times coming for the NHS, regardless of govt action.
A hard lockdown will apply in the Netherlands from 5 a.m. tomorrow morning. Sources in The Hague confirm that the cabinet is adopting the advice of the Outbreak Management Team to close as many sectors as possible. In any case, the new measures will remain in force until January 14.
It was already clear that the OMT and the cabinet are very concerned about the rapid spread of the omikron variant of the coronavirus.
The experts advise closing almost everything: only essential shops such as supermarkets and pharmacies should remain open, sources in The Hague confirmed yesterday. The cabinet held emergency consultations this afternoon and has reportedly adopted the advice for the hard lockdown.
This means that the catering industry, non-essential shops and the sports and culture sector will have to close again. Pickup at shops and catering would remain possible. As far as the experts are concerned, all secondary schools and other educational institutions must also close. Primary schools have already closed early for the Christmas holidays.
'Four people at Christmas' The group size outside is reduced to a maximum of 2 people. A maximum of 2 visitors should also be allowed inside. Reportedly there will be an exception for Christmas: then 4 visitors are welcome. This exception would not apply to New Year's Eve.
The new measures will be explained in a press conference at 7 pm.
Looks like just over a million jabs a day is probably going to be max.
They won't make target / aspiration, but will get a hell of a lot done.
It was a stupid target
The purpose of a target is to push yourself towards it.
If things had been left to the NHS we would still be down at 200k per day.
It is the Tories' fault we're in the booster hole, they spent all Summer doing sod all
Given what we now know about boosters, if we had boostered oldies in the summer, we would be doing them again now.
Should we have done kids during the summer holidays. Yes. But JCVI recommendations said no.
Should we have done oldies slightly earlier and faster, and a wider group of oldies. Yes. But JCVI rules recommendations said no.
You partisanship some times is way OTT.
Why am only I attacked for partisanship even when I'm making a fairly reasonable point? I don't see you attacking Tories
In this specific instance it isn't reasonable to expect a government to overturn the decision of an independent medical advisory committee. No sensible politician would, otherwise you get into Trump territory of advising bleach and giving anti-vaxxer massive amounts of ammunition.
I have spent the past 2 years consistently pointing out the dumb shit the government have done time and time again. Go and check my 60k posts, there are absolutely loads of posts saying, FFS Boris has bottled a lockdown, he is leaving it too late. I was also massively critical of the idea of the tier system. I said we should have had border restrictions straight away during March 2020....I advocated for the sort of scheme Australia have employed....I said the government needed to kick SAGE up the arse in the summer and have them actually making a plan, when in fact they didn't meet for 2 months...
Regarding the conversation about Sunak in the previous thread, I think being independently wealthy is a plus - it makes the candidate less susceptible to grifting opportunities. Thatcher was wealthy through her spouse.
You clearly haven't met the same sort of rich people as I have.
Although in fairness doesn't the nature of your job means you meet a disproportionate amount of greedy and rather dim rich criminals?
Looks like just over a million jabs a day is probably going to be max.
They won't make target / aspiration, but will get a hell of a lot done.
It was a stupid target
The purpose of a target is to push yourself towards it.
If things had been left to the NHS we would still be down at 200k per day.
It is the Tories' fault we're in the booster hole, they spent all Summer doing sod all
Given what we now know about boosters, if we had boostered oldies in the summer, we would be doing them again now.
Should we have done kids during the summer holidays. Yes. But JCVI recommendations said no.
Should we have done oldies slightly earlier and faster, and a wider group of oldies. Yes. But JCVI rules recommendations said no.
You partisanship some times is way OTT.
Why am only I attacked for partisanship even when I'm making a fairly reasonable point? I don't see you attacking Tories
In this specific instance it isn't reasonable to expect a government to overturn the decision of an independent medical advisory committee. No sensible politician would, otherwise you get into Trump territory of advising bleach and giving anti-vaxxer massive amounts of ammunition.
I have spent the past 2 years consistently pointing out the dumb shit the government have done time and time again. Go and check my 60k posts, there are absolutely loads of posts saying, FFS Boris has bottled a lockdown, he is leaving it too late. I was also massively critical of the idea of the tier system. I said we should have had border restrictions straight away during March 2020....I advocated for the sort of scheme Australia have employed....I said the government needed to kick SAGE up the arse in the summer and have them actually making a plan, when in fact they didn't meet for 2 months...
I could go on and on and on.
Agreed. The truth is, we don't know how bad Omicron will be. With vaccines the landing point for hospitalisations and serious illness is likely to be between somewhat better than Delta without vaccines and somewhat worse. That's what serious and informed people investigating this are coming up with, not all of whom can be dismissed because they don't accord with our prejudices.
If we collectively think we are not prepared to do another lockdown and will take whatever Omicron throws at us, that's a valid decision to make. But let's not say, we're not doing another lockdown, and then do it anyway as the hospital system buckles under the strain.
But the totally INFURIATING thing is that UKG has made virtually no attempt to punish, tax or chide the antivaxxers into getting the jab. They are the reason we are back in the shit. Look at @foxy's post today - every Covid victim in his ICU is unvaxxed
WHY is the government so totally spineless on this issue? Fear of being seen as racist? Fear of the "libertarian lobby"?
Before they make my life miserable, and condemn my kids to more damaged mental health, perhaps the fucking government could tackle the people who are causing all this shit, rather than jailing absolutely everyone
This is the smartest thing you've said on COVID recently. Governments sooner or later are going to have to be a lot tougher on the anti-vaxxers. One obvious thing to do is to deprioritize anti-vaxxers for NHS treatment.
I agree, but not your last sentence. That would be a slippery slope imo. (Next exclude, addicts, then those who caused their own injuries,... Where do you stop?)
Yes. If you say anti-vaxxers should be penalised, why not fat people for example (I’ll exclude smokers - given the tax on cigarettes, it can be argued they already are being penalised).
There's VAT on junk food
Food and drink for human consumption is usually zero-rated but some items are always standard-rated. These include catering, alcoholic drinks, confectionery, crisps and savoury snacks, hot food, sports drinks, hot takeaways, ice cream, soft drinks and mineral water.
What is there for antivaxxers ?
They already are penalised. For example, there are different rules for where you can go for people who are vaccinated or unvaccinated.
The simple fact is it’s not concern about the stress on health systems that’s driving the punishment debate but political views. Being an anti-vaxxer is seen as right wing, therefore it’s fine to punish. However, being fat is “your choice” and to criticise it is “fat shaming” so we never debate charging extra for it. Hence why we have to go the back door route of taxation (at least with cigs, it’s blatantly obviously smokers are despised. With fat people, it’s “oohhh, it’s your body, you’re beautiful”)
Regarding the conversation about Sunak in the previous thread, I think being independently wealthy is a plus - it makes the candidate less susceptible to grifting opportunities. Thatcher was wealthy through her spouse.
You clearly haven't met the same sort of rich people as I have.
You can always trust @Luckyguy1983 to be completely wrong
Looks like just over a million jabs a day is probably going to be max.
They won't make target / aspiration, but will get a hell of a lot done.
It was a stupid target
The purpose of a target is to push yourself towards it.
If things had been left to the NHS we would still be down at 200k per day.
It is the Tories' fault we're in the booster hole, they spent all Summer doing sod all
Given what we now know about boosters, if we had boostered oldies in the summer, we would be doing them again now.
Should we have done kids during the summer holidays. Yes. But JCVI recommendations said no.
Should we have done oldies slightly earlier and faster, and a wider group of oldies. Yes. But JCVI rules recommendations said no.
You partisanship some times is way OTT.
Why am only I attacked for partisanship even when I'm making a fairly reasonable point? I don't see you attacking Tories
In this specific instance it isn't reasonable to expect a government to overturn the decision of an independent medical advisory committee. No sensible politician would, otherwise you get into Trump territory of advising bleach and giving anti-vaxxer massive amounts of ammunition.
I have spent the past 2 years consistently pointing out the dumb shit the government have done time and time again. Go and check my 60k posts, there are absolutely loads of posts saying, FFS Boris has bottled a lockdown, he is leaving it too late. I was also massively critical of the idea of the tier system. I said we should have had border restrictions straight away during March 2020....I advocated for the sort of scheme Australia have employed....I said the government needed to kick SAGE up the arse in the summer and have them actually making a plan, when in fact they didn't meet for 2 months...
I could go on and on and on.
Agreed. The truth is, we don't know how bad Omicron will be. With vaccines the landing point for hospitalisations and serious illness is likely to be between somewhat better than Delta without vaccines and somewhat worse. That's what serious and informed people investigating this are coming up with, not all of whom can be dismissed because they don't accord with our prejudices.
If we collectively think we are not prepared to do another lockdown and will take whatever Omicron throws at us, that's a valid decision to make. But let's not say, we're not doing another lockdown, and then do it anyway as the hospital system buckles under the strain.
But the totally INFURIATING thing is that UKG has made virtually no attempt to punish, tax or chide the antivaxxers into getting the jab. They are the reason we are back in the shit. Look at @foxy's post today - every Covid victim in his ICU is unvaxxed
WHY is the government so totally spineless on this issue? Fear of being seen as racist? Fear of the "libertarian lobby"?
Before they make my life miserable, and condemn my kids to more damaged mental health, perhaps the fucking government could tackle the people who are causing all this shit, rather than jailing absolutely everyone
I like the idea of a COVID NHS tax at 1% per year to help the NHS pay for COVID care which is refunded to people when they reach fully vaccinated status. That would get loads of people in the door as getting the vaccine is being linked to helping the NHS, lots of people still haven't made that connection.
I suspect quite a few of the unvaxxed aren't paying tax... including children of course.
The real answer is make it hard to go places / do things. Restrict the unvaccinated* as you would smokers, with a few exceptions (hospitals, schools, can't think on many others tbh).
It's going to happen eventually anyway, so why delay?
(*With an exemption cert for thos that can't be vaccinated of course.)
Because it won't help. The most likely unvaccinated person who might end up in hospital is going to be a 60-70 year old South Asian Muslim who doesn't drink, doesn't smoke and doesn't go to the pub, theatre, non-Halal restaurants, shops at the local Asian shop run by one of his mates who also doesn't smoke, doesn't drink, doesn't go to the pub, theatre or non-Halal restaurants.
Vaccine passports might get a few extra under 40s to get vaccinated, sure, but that's not going to change the healthcare situation. They will do precisely zero to get those over 60s who are unvaccinated into the funnel. The unvaccinated in these cohorts will not be inconvenienced by them because nowhere they go need them or will bother implementing them.
Vaccine passports are another one of those "let's look like we're doing something" measures. A tax at least raises some money.
Regarding the conversation about Sunak in the previous thread, I think being independently wealthy is a plus - it makes the candidate less susceptible to grifting opportunities. Thatcher was wealthy through her spouse.
You clearly haven't met the same sort of rich people as I have.
I think the previous presidential family gives a more accurate impression. I don't think the Left could have imagined a better example of how the super rich don't deserve their wealth.
(((Dan Hodges))) @DPJHodges · 1h Understand people's Omicron concerns. But we were told vaccines would remove the need for lockdowns. If that's no longer the case, OK. But we need to have a serious debate. Because I just don't see how a cycle of perpetually locking, then unlocking, society is sustainable.
Eventually COVID is going to become less lethal as variants develop that don't kill people as much but still spread quickly, meaning it gives immunity from the more lethal kinds. In addition vaccines will get better like they have for the flu. As we transition to that we will still have lockdowns but they will be fewer, shorter and further between.
Eventually we will have none at all, but this process is going to take years. But part of the problem is that 21st Century Westerners are pampered in more luxury, entertainment and general pleasure seeking than anyone else in human history. They are too soft mentally to get through this.
Didn’t we have this line of argument last year, the old “it will become less lethal so we can all get back to normal etc etc” yet here we are having another major lockdown and everyone talking about how Omicrom could be as lethal as previous variants. I’m sure next year - when we have another variant - this same old trope will be rolled out again to justify another lockdown.
More accurate to say "yet here we are with everyone speculating we're going to have another major lockdown."
And reading things wrong imo. Because we're not.
You're either delusionally optimistic, or you have such a strict definition of lockdown it doesn't include "shutting all indoor hospitality, imposing the rule of 6, everyone work from home"
Which is it? I would genuinely like to know, because from my perspective we are certainly going to get a Plan C, very soon, and it's beginning to look a lot like Lockdown
This is why the Tory party was so against plan b, it sets us on the path to more and more restrictions. If the mindset is "this will make a difference" and it doesn't then you need the next thing that will "make a difference" and so on until, like the Netherlands, you've got to a full lockdown because the government doesn't have the stones to say it doesn't care if the unvaccinated by choice kick the bucket at home.
The Dutch have now got a near four week hard lockdown. In the depths of a north European winter. It will likely be extended. They are torturing their own people, to protect the stupid and selfish, and we are entering the third year of this shite
Like many readers of history, I've always wondered how and why advanced, educated countries tolerated the absurd, surreal horrors of the First World War. By the end of 1914 it was clear no one was going to "win easily", and that millions of young men would die in futile squalor
Yet families kept on sending their sons, month after month, year after year, to be fed into the Flanders meat grinder (and on other fronts too) and the people at home tolerated this insanity. Indeed, life went on as "normal"
- until it didn't, in places like Russia
Because it was better than German domination.
But a truce, if called in Christmas 1914, would have saved millions of lives and billions of pounds/marks on both sides (and might have prevented the rise of communism and Nazism)
And yet, on and on it went. An all-embracing disaster
I think one factor was that so many had already been lost that only victory would make the sacrifice worthwhile.
I guess there are still people aiming for complete victory over Covid, and not willing to accept a vaccine-mediated settlement.
(((Dan Hodges))) @DPJHodges · 1h Understand people's Omicron concerns. But we were told vaccines would remove the need for lockdowns. If that's no longer the case, OK. But we need to have a serious debate. Because I just don't see how a cycle of perpetually locking, then unlocking, society is sustainable.
Eventually COVID is going to become less lethal as variants develop that don't kill people as much but still spread quickly, meaning it gives immunity from the more lethal kinds. In addition vaccines will get better like they have for the flu. As we transition to that we will still have lockdowns but they will be fewer, shorter and further between.
Eventually we will have none at all, but this process is going to take years. But part of the problem is that 21st Century Westerners are pampered in more luxury, entertainment and general pleasure seeking than anyone else in human history. They are too soft mentally to get through this.
Didn’t we have this line of argument last year, the old “it will become less lethal so we can all get back to normal etc etc” yet here we are having another major lockdown and everyone talking about how Omicrom could be as lethal as previous variants. I’m sure next year - when we have another variant - this same old trope will be rolled out again to justify another lockdown.
More accurate to say "yet here we are with everyone speculating we're going to have another major lockdown."
And reading things wrong imo. Because we're not.
You're either delusionally optimistic, or you have such a strict definition of lockdown it doesn't include "shutting all indoor hospitality, imposing the rule of 6, everyone work from home"
Which is it? I would genuinely like to know, because from my perspective we are certainly going to get a Plan C, very soon, and it's beginning to look a lot like Lockdown
I'm certainly not a kooky optimist. I have a pretty good record on 'govt covid action' prediction.
But ok, there is definition leeway here. Let's firm up. I don't think there'll be rule of 6, nor the closing down of hospitality. WFH is a certainty imo but guidance not law.
I'm not quite as confident as I've been before though, this is true. And it looks like bad times coming for the NHS, regardless of govt action.
You DO have a pretty good record on government action, which is why my question is sincere, if a little brusque
The government is not proposing to close down "all hospitality", but they are proposing (it is alleged) to close down all indoor hospitality, which is essentially the same thing for 90% of businesses, esp in winter. And they are imposing restrictions on socialising, bringing back the rule of 6, et al
That is a lockdown, and it seems you agree, and I am pretty certain it is coming. But I pray that you are right and I am wrong
(((Dan Hodges))) @DPJHodges · 1h Understand people's Omicron concerns. But we were told vaccines would remove the need for lockdowns. If that's no longer the case, OK. But we need to have a serious debate. Because I just don't see how a cycle of perpetually locking, then unlocking, society is sustainable.
Eventually COVID is going to become less lethal as variants develop that don't kill people as much but still spread quickly, meaning it gives immunity from the more lethal kinds. In addition vaccines will get better like they have for the flu. As we transition to that we will still have lockdowns but they will be fewer, shorter and further between.
Eventually we will have none at all, but this process is going to take years. But part of the problem is that 21st Century Westerners are pampered in more luxury, entertainment and general pleasure seeking than anyone else in human history. They are too soft mentally to get through this.
Didn’t we have this line of argument last year, the old “it will become less lethal so we can all get back to normal etc etc” yet here we are having another major lockdown and everyone talking about how Omicrom could be as lethal as previous variants. I’m sure next year - when we have another variant - this same old trope will be rolled out again to justify another lockdown.
More accurate to say "yet here we are with everyone speculating we're going to have another major lockdown."
And reading things wrong imo. Because we're not.
You're either delusionally optimistic, or you have such a strict definition of lockdown it doesn't include "shutting all indoor hospitality, imposing the rule of 6, everyone work from home"
Which is it? I would genuinely like to know, because from my perspective we are certainly going to get a Plan C, very soon, and it's beginning to look a lot like Lockdown
This is why the Tory party was so against plan b, it sets us on the path to more and more restrictions. If the mindset is "this will make a difference" and it doesn't then you need the next thing that will "make a difference" and so on until, like the Netherlands, you've got to a full lockdown because the government doesn't have the stones to say it doesn't care if the unvaccinated by choice kick the bucket at home.
The Dutch have now got a near four week hard lockdown. In the depths of a north European winter. It will likely be extended. They are torturing their own people, to protect the stupid and selfish, and we are entering the third year of this shite
Like many readers of history, I've always wondered how and why advanced, educated countries tolerated the absurd, surreal horrors of the First World War. By the end of 1914 it was clear no one was going to "win easily", and that millions of young men would die in futile squalor
Yet families kept on sending their sons, month after month, year after year, to be fed into the Flanders meat grinder (and on other fronts too) and the people at home tolerated this insanity. Indeed, life went on as "normal"
- until it didn't, in places like Russia
Because it was better than German domination.
But a truce, if called in Christmas 1914, would have saved millions of lives and billions of pounds/marks on both sides (and might have prevented the rise of communism and Nazism)
And yet, on and on it went. An all-embracing disaster
Yes and it should have been done, but it takes two to tango.
At the bottom of the article is a request for cash,
Dig deep people.
Do you know what price the Met have demanded to investigate? Might help with the fundraising.
Oh sorry, is that not what it's for?
The contrast between photos of that young lass being pinned to the floor by a load of burly police officers for daring to break lockdown to attend the Sarah Everard vigil and a collective shrug of 'nothing to see here, gov' with respect to Downing Street must be doing a ton of damage to the Met's public reputation.
Regarding the conversation about Sunak in the previous thread, I think being independently wealthy is a plus - it makes the candidate less susceptible to grifting opportunities. Thatcher was wealthy through her spouse.
You clearly haven't met the same sort of rich people as I have.
Reminds me of the story about someone asking why a rich lady was so niggardly with her money, to which the reply was "How do you think she got rich?"
Looks like just over a million jabs a day is probably going to be max.
They won't make target / aspiration, but will get a hell of a lot done.
It was a stupid target
The purpose of a target is to push yourself towards it.
If things had been left to the NHS we would still be down at 200k per day.
It is the Tories' fault we're in the booster hole, they spent all Summer doing sod all
Given what we now know about boosters, if we had boostered oldies in the summer, we would be doing them again now.
Should we have done kids during the summer holidays. Yes. But JCVI recommendations said no.
Should we have done oldies slightly earlier and faster, and a wider group of oldies. Yes. But JCVI rules recommendations said no.
You partisanship some times is way OTT.
Why am only I attacked for partisanship even when I'm making a fairly reasonable point? I don't see you attacking Tories
In this specific instance it isn't reasonable to expect a government to overturn the decision of an independent medical advisory committee. No sensible politician would, otherwise you get into Trump territory of advising bleach and giving anti-vaxxer massive amounts of ammunition.
I have spent the past 2 years consistently pointing out the dumb shit the government have done time and time again. Go and check my 60k posts, there are absolutely loads of posts saying, FFS Boris has bottled a lockdown, he is leaving it too late. I was also massively critical of the idea of the tier system. I said we should have had border restrictions straight away during March 2020....I advocated for the sort of scheme Australia have employed....I said the government needed to kick SAGE up the arse in the summer and have them actually making a plan, when in fact they didn't meet for 2 months...
I could go on and on and on.
Agreed. The truth is, we don't know how bad Omicron will be. With vaccines the landing point for hospitalisations and serious illness is likely to be between somewhat better than Delta without vaccines and somewhat worse. That's what serious and informed people investigating this are coming up with, not all of whom can be dismissed because they don't accord with our prejudices.
If we collectively think we are not prepared to do another lockdown and will take whatever Omicron throws at us, that's a valid decision to make. But let's not say, we're not doing another lockdown, and then do it anyway as the hospital system buckles under the strain.
But the totally INFURIATING thing is that UKG has made virtually no attempt to punish, tax or chide the antivaxxers into getting the jab. They are the reason we are back in the shit. Look at @foxy's post today - every Covid victim in his ICU is unvaxxed
WHY is the government so totally spineless on this issue? Fear of being seen as racist? Fear of the "libertarian lobby"?
Before they make my life miserable, and condemn my kids to more damaged mental health, perhaps the fucking government could tackle the people who are causing all this shit, rather than jailing absolutely everyone
I like the idea of a COVID NHS tax at 1% per year to help the NHS pay for COVID care which is refunded to people when they reach fully vaccinated status. That would get loads of people in the door as getting the vaccine is being linked to helping the NHS, lots of people still haven't made that connection.
I suspect quite a few of the unvaxxed aren't paying tax... including children of course.
The real answer is make it hard to go places / do things. Restrict the unvaccinated* as you would smokers, with a few exceptions (hospitals, schools, can't think on many others tbh).
It's going to happen eventually anyway, so why delay?
(*With an exemption cert for thos that can't be vaccinated of course.)
Because it won't help. The most likely unvaccinated person who might end up in hospital is going to be a 60-70 year old South Asian Muslim who doesn't drink, doesn't smoke and doesn't go to the pub, theatre, non-Halal restaurants, shops at the local Asian shop run by one of his mates who also doesn't smoke, doesn't drink, doesn't go to the pub, theatre or non-Halal restaurants.
Vaccine passports might get a few extra under 40s to get vaccinated, sure, but that's not going to change the healthcare situation. They will do precisely zero to get those over 60s who are unvaccinated into the funnel. The unvaccinated in these cohorts will not be inconvenienced by them because nowhere they go need them or will bother implementing them.
Vaccine passports are another one of those "let's look like we're doing something" measures. A tax at least raises some money.
Yes, but as a few people point out there, if I go to the pub and I look under-age (obviously not now but back in the day), I was ID’d. No one said “you’re infringing on my civil liberties” or “it’s a disgrace”, you accepted it. No ID, no drink.
I suspect the howls of outrage from certain areas are because they realise they benefit from certain “loose” practices.
The Dutch government appear to have gone collectively mad. So they lock down hard for 4 weeks, and cases stabilise or drop (or, as this is the big O, keep rising slowly?). Then they unlock again, and…whoosh. Up go the cases again. Then what, they lock down again? Then reopen again? Ad infinitum. Because the whole Dutch population is going to get this thing at some point. And arguably better to get it when the elderly are freshly boosted than next year when their immunity is waning again.
I don’t think that’s going to happen here. Nobody will dare lock things down until after Christmas. By that time I wouldn’t mind betting that London cases will have peaked already anyway. Then Boris will have Baker and Co on his back benches to deal with. So they’ll go incrementally, by which point hopefully the country as a whole will have peaked and be on the way down.
Much truth in this. Two comments. Matthew Goodwin is a little more thoughtful than described here.
The big thing he misses is competence. With Post-Brexit + pandemic to sort the government has to exude competence. Stuff is bound to happen, but the number of unnecessary errors points to a significant intellectual and moral gap.
On Brexit, this is a special case. Given the politics of the UK as of 2000-now and continuing, no satisfactory EU/UK settlement is likely. getting out of a 40 year alliance will always take years. Parliament, with a Remain majority failed to agree a sensible compromise timetable (eg Norway for Now) leaving no choice between a fairly hard Brexit and rejoin. Neither can work.
It may mean the Tories are replaced by another lot next time, but the problem of there being no acceptable solution (including status quo and status quo ante) will remain.
If the Lab/rainbow alliance can exude competence and moderation they will win.
I think that if Labour offered the EU a customs union (thereby eliminating most of the Northern Ireland issues) and general sensible cooperation on issues of joint concern there would be a warm response from the EU, and only a smallish minority of British voters would be really upset.
That’s been the obvious compromise and common sense approach since Mrs May took office, and her term would have gone very differently had she spent her honeymoon capital on telling her nutters some home truths and steering the country in that direction. Sooner or later we’ll get a government that recognises that Norway or Switzerland offer more realistic examples than Singapore.
A sad thing / true thing is Labour can offer whatever on the EU bar Free Movement. Ditto Mrs May back then for that matter. There were tons of reasons for the Leave vote but FM was the biggest. May would have been toast if she'd tried to retain it in any Brexit deal and Labour must steer clear of it to have a chance in GE24. Seems little doubt that SKS realizes this.
The polling on Brexit shows the most important things were (1) wanting laws to be made in the UK and (2) immigration. In that order. Starmer will lose any gains if he does either or looks like he is going to do either.
But (2) is far more clearcut. Free Movement is totemic and not open to fudge. (1) is in the eye of the beholder to a great extent.
Perhaps but people will make their minds up pretty quickly if the Tories run a campaign on "Starmer, the man that tried to overturn Brexit, is now going to hand back power over British laws to the EU" and the BBC fact checking is going to have to say this is true.
You are assuming that everyone is against it. There are a lot of people who would like to have it back and the last vote was very nearly 50:50 and demographically a lot of younger voters might be motivated to vote to get it back and, as Leave voters tended to be older, a number of them will not be voting any more.
Personally, I would vote to put FoM back in place so that that those growing up have more options than being locked up in Boris's Britain and businesses have an opportunity to open up all the markets that were taken away from them.
Looks like just over a million jabs a day is probably going to be max.
They won't make target / aspiration, but will get a hell of a lot done.
It was a stupid target
The purpose of a target is to push yourself towards it.
If things had been left to the NHS we would still be down at 200k per day.
It is the Tories' fault we're in the booster hole, they spent all Summer doing sod all
Given what we now know about boosters, if we had boostered oldies in the summer, we would be doing them again now.
Should we have done kids during the summer holidays. Yes. But JCVI recommendations said no.
Should we have done oldies slightly earlier and faster, and a wider group of oldies. Yes. But JCVI rules recommendations said no.
You partisanship some times is way OTT.
Why am only I attacked for partisanship even when I'm making a fairly reasonable point? I don't see you attacking Tories
In this specific instance it isn't reasonable to expect a government to overturn the decision of an independent medical advisory committee. No sensible politician would, otherwise you get into Trump territory of advising bleach and giving anti-vaxxer massive amounts of ammunition.
I have spent the past 2 years consistently pointing out the dumb shit the government have done time and time again. Go and check my 60k posts, there are absolutely loads of posts saying, FFS Boris has bottled a lockdown, he is leaving it too late. I was also massively critical of the idea of the tier system. I said we should have had border restrictions straight away during March 2020....I advocated for the sort of scheme Australia have employed....I said the government needed to kick SAGE up the arse in the summer and have them actually making a plan, when in fact they didn't meet for 2 months...
I could go on and on and on.
Agreed. The truth is, we don't know how bad Omicron will be. With vaccines the landing point for hospitalisations and serious illness is likely to be between somewhat better than Delta without vaccines and somewhat worse. That's what serious and informed people investigating this are coming up with, not all of whom can be dismissed because they don't accord with our prejudices.
If we collectively think we are not prepared to do another lockdown and will take whatever Omicron throws at us, that's a valid decision to make. But let's not say, we're not doing another lockdown, and then do it anyway as the hospital system buckles under the strain.
But the totally INFURIATING thing is that UKG has made virtually no attempt to punish, tax or chide the antivaxxers into getting the jab. They are the reason we are back in the shit. Look at @foxy's post today - every Covid victim in his ICU is unvaxxed
WHY is the government so totally spineless on this issue? Fear of being seen as racist? Fear of the "libertarian lobby"?
Before they make my life miserable, and condemn my kids to more damaged mental health, perhaps the fucking government could tackle the people who are causing all this shit, rather than jailing absolutely everyone
I like the idea of a COVID NHS tax at 1% per year to help the NHS pay for COVID care which is refunded to people when they reach fully vaccinated status. That would get loads of people in the door as getting the vaccine is being linked to helping the NHS, lots of people still haven't made that connection.
I suspect quite a few of the unvaxxed aren't paying tax... including children of course.
The real answer is make it hard to go places / do things. Restrict the unvaccinated* as you would smokers, with a few exceptions (hospitals, schools, can't think on many others tbh).
It's going to happen eventually anyway, so why delay?
(*With an exemption cert for thos that can't be vaccinated of course.)
Because it won't help. The most likely unvaccinated person who might end up in hospital is going to be a 60-70 year old South Asian Muslim who doesn't drink, doesn't smoke and doesn't go to the pub, theatre, non-Halal restaurants, shops at the local Asian shop run by one of his mates who also doesn't smoke, doesn't drink, doesn't go to the pub, theatre or non-Halal restaurants.
Vaccine passports might get a few extra under 40s to get vaccinated, sure, but that's not going to change the healthcare situation. They will do precisely zero to get those over 60s who are unvaccinated into the funnel. The unvaccinated in these cohorts will not be inconvenienced by them because nowhere they go need them or will bother implementing them.
Vaccine passports are another one of those "let's look like we're doing something" measures. A tax at least raises some money.
Do you have some facts to support that frankly dubious "South Asian Muslim" assertion ?
I ask because the latest ICNARC report shows that 74% of patients admitted to ICU with Covid since May 2021 have been white. The ratios (rounded) are: White 74% Mixed 2% Asian 11% Black 8% Other 6%
So yes, asian and black people are over represented but not massivley so. And consider also the wealth/deprivation breakdown. ICU covid patients are 3 times more likely to be from the most deprived quitile than from the least deprived.
A hard lockdown will apply in the Netherlands from 5 a.m. tomorrow morning. Sources in The Hague confirm that the cabinet is adopting the advice of the Outbreak Management Team to close as many sectors as possible. In any case, the new measures will remain in force until January 14.
It was already clear that the OMT and the cabinet are very concerned about the rapid spread of the omikron variant of the coronavirus.
The experts advise closing almost everything: only essential shops such as supermarkets and pharmacies should remain open, sources in The Hague confirmed yesterday. The cabinet held emergency consultations this afternoon and has reportedly adopted the advice for the hard lockdown.
This means that the catering industry, non-essential shops and the sports and culture sector will have to close again. Pickup at shops and catering would remain possible. As far as the experts are concerned, all secondary schools and other educational institutions must also close. Primary schools have already closed early for the Christmas holidays.
'Four people at Christmas' The group size outside is reduced to a maximum of 2 people. A maximum of 2 visitors should also be allowed inside. Reportedly there will be an exception for Christmas: then 4 visitors are welcome. This exception would not apply to New Year's Eve.
The new measures will be explained in a press conference at 7 pm.
Looks like just over a million jabs a day is probably going to be max.
They won't make target / aspiration, but will get a hell of a lot done.
It was a stupid target
The purpose of a target is to push yourself towards it.
If things had been left to the NHS we would still be down at 200k per day.
It is the Tories' fault we're in the booster hole, they spent all Summer doing sod all
Given what we now know about boosters, if we had boostered oldies in the summer, we would be doing them again now.
Should we have done kids during the summer holidays. Yes. But JCVI recommendations said no.
Should we have done oldies slightly earlier and faster, and a wider group of oldies. Yes. But JCVI rules recommendations said no.
You partisanship some times is way OTT.
Why am only I attacked for partisanship even when I'm making a fairly reasonable point? I don't see you attacking Tories
In this specific instance it isn't reasonable to expect a government to overturn the decision of an independent medical advisory committee. No sensible politician would, otherwise you get into Trump territory of advising bleach and giving anti-vaxxer massive amounts of ammunition.
I have spent the past 2 years consistently pointing out the dumb shit the government have done time and time again. Go and check my 60k posts, there are absolutely loads of posts saying, FFS Boris has bottled a lockdown, he is leaving it too late. I was also massively critical of the idea of the tier system. I said we should have had border restrictions straight away during March 2020....I advocated for the sort of scheme Australia have employed....I said the government needed to kick SAGE up the arse in the summer and have them actually making a plan, when in fact they didn't meet for 2 months...
I could go on and on and on.
Agreed. The truth is, we don't know how bad Omicron will be. With vaccines the landing point for hospitalisations and serious illness is likely to be between somewhat better than Delta without vaccines and somewhat worse. That's what serious and informed people investigating this are coming up with, not all of whom can be dismissed because they don't accord with our prejudices.
If we collectively think we are not prepared to do another lockdown and will take whatever Omicron throws at us, that's a valid decision to make. But let's not say, we're not doing another lockdown, and then do it anyway as the hospital system buckles under the strain.
But the totally INFURIATING thing is that UKG has made virtually no attempt to punish, tax or chide the antivaxxers into getting the jab. They are the reason we are back in the shit. Look at @foxy's post today - every Covid victim in his ICU is unvaxxed
WHY is the government so totally spineless on this issue? Fear of being seen as racist? Fear of the "libertarian lobby"?
Before they make my life miserable, and condemn my kids to more damaged mental health, perhaps the fucking government could tackle the people who are causing all this shit, rather than jailing absolutely everyone
I like the idea of a COVID NHS tax at 1% per year to help the NHS pay for COVID care which is refunded to people when they reach fully vaccinated status. That would get loads of people in the door as getting the vaccine is being linked to helping the NHS, lots of people still haven't made that connection.
I suspect quite a few of the unvaxxed aren't paying tax... including children of course.
The real answer is make it hard to go places / do things. Restrict the unvaccinated* as you would smokers, with a few exceptions (hospitals, schools, can't think on many others tbh).
It's going to happen eventually anyway, so why delay?
(*With an exemption cert for thos that can't be vaccinated of course.)
Because it won't help. The most likely unvaccinated person who might end up in hospital is going to be a 60-70 year old South Asian Muslim who doesn't drink, doesn't smoke and doesn't go to the pub, theatre, non-Halal restaurants, shops at the local Asian shop run by one of his mates who also doesn't smoke, doesn't drink, doesn't go to the pub, theatre or non-Halal restaurants.
Vaccine passports might get a few extra under 40s to get vaccinated, sure, but that's not going to change the healthcare situation. They will do precisely zero to get those over 60s who are unvaccinated into the funnel. The unvaccinated in these cohorts will not be inconvenienced by them because nowhere they go need them or will bother implementing them.
Vaccine passports are another one of those "let's look like we're doing something" measures. A tax at least raises some money.
Yes, but as a few people point out there, if I go to the pub and I look under-age (obviously not now but back in the day), I was ID’d. No one said “you’re infringing on my civil liberties” or “it’s a disgrace”, you accepted it. No ID, no drink.
I suspect the howls of outrage from certain areas are because they realise they benefit from certain “loose” practices.
No, they are well aware of how voter ID has been a successful means of vote suppression employed by the Republicans in the US for years.
Possibly erroneously in this case given the Tories’ new voting bloc may well include large numbers who would also be put off by ID requirements.
Looks like just over a million jabs a day is probably going to be max.
They won't make target / aspiration, but will get a hell of a lot done.
It was a stupid target
The purpose of a target is to push yourself towards it.
If things had been left to the NHS we would still be down at 200k per day.
It is the Tories' fault we're in the booster hole, they spent all Summer doing sod all
Given what we now know about boosters, if we had boostered oldies in the summer, we would be doing them again now.
Should we have done kids during the summer holidays. Yes. But JCVI recommendations said no.
Should we have done oldies slightly earlier and faster, and a wider group of oldies. Yes. But JCVI rules recommendations said no.
You partisanship some times is way OTT.
Why am only I attacked for partisanship even when I'm making a fairly reasonable point? I don't see you attacking Tories
In this specific instance it isn't reasonable to expect a government to overturn the decision of an independent medical advisory committee. No sensible politician would, otherwise you get into Trump territory of advising bleach and giving anti-vaxxer massive amounts of ammunition.
I have spent the past 2 years consistently pointing out the dumb shit the government have done time and time again. Go and check my 60k posts, there are absolutely loads of posts saying, FFS Boris has bottled a lockdown, he is leaving it too late. I was also massively critical of the idea of the tier system. I said we should have had border restrictions straight away during March 2020....I advocated for the sort of scheme Australia have employed....I said the government needed to kick SAGE up the arse in the summer and have them actually making a plan, when in fact they didn't meet for 2 months...
I could go on and on and on.
Agreed. The truth is, we don't know how bad Omicron will be. With vaccines the landing point for hospitalisations and serious illness is likely to be between somewhat better than Delta without vaccines and somewhat worse. That's what serious and informed people investigating this are coming up with, not all of whom can be dismissed because they don't accord with our prejudices.
If we collectively think we are not prepared to do another lockdown and will take whatever Omicron throws at us, that's a valid decision to make. But let's not say, we're not doing another lockdown, and then do it anyway as the hospital system buckles under the strain.
But the totally INFURIATING thing is that UKG has made virtually no attempt to punish, tax or chide the antivaxxers into getting the jab. They are the reason we are back in the shit. Look at @foxy's post today - every Covid victim in his ICU is unvaxxed
WHY is the government so totally spineless on this issue? Fear of being seen as racist? Fear of the "libertarian lobby"?
Before they make my life miserable, and condemn my kids to more damaged mental health, perhaps the fucking government could tackle the people who are causing all this shit, rather than jailing absolutely everyone
I like the idea of a COVID NHS tax at 1% per year to help the NHS pay for COVID care which is refunded to people when they reach fully vaccinated status. That would get loads of people in the door as getting the vaccine is being linked to helping the NHS, lots of people still haven't made that connection.
I suspect quite a few of the unvaxxed aren't paying tax... including children of course.
The real answer is make it hard to go places / do things. Restrict the unvaccinated* as you would smokers, with a few exceptions (hospitals, schools, can't think on many others tbh).
It's going to happen eventually anyway, so why delay?
(*With an exemption cert for thos that can't be vaccinated of course.)
Because it won't help. The most likely unvaccinated person who might end up in hospital is going to be a 60-70 year old South Asian Muslim who doesn't drink, doesn't smoke and doesn't go to the pub, theatre, non-Halal restaurants, shops at the local Asian shop run by one of his mates who also doesn't smoke, doesn't drink, doesn't go to the pub, theatre or non-Halal restaurants.
Vaccine passports might get a few extra under 40s to get vaccinated, sure, but that's not going to change the healthcare situation. They will do precisely zero to get those over 60s who are unvaccinated into the funnel. The unvaccinated in these cohorts will not be inconvenienced by them because nowhere they go need them or will bother implementing them.
Vaccine passports are another one of those "let's look like we're doing something" measures. A tax at least raises some money.
Do you have some facts to support that frankly obnoxious "South Asian Muslim" assertion ?
I ask because the latest ICNARC report shows that 74% of patients admitted to ICU with Covid since May 2021 have been white. The ratios (rounded) are: White 74% Mixed 2% Asian 11% Black 8% Other 6%
So yes, asian and black people are over represented but not massivley so. And consider also the wealth/deprivation breakdown. ICU covid patients are 3 times more likely to be from the most deprived quitile than from the least deprived.
Denmark has also slowed, in the last couple of days
Is this the first glimmer of hope? Is it going to do here what it did in Gauteng? Just fall back inexplicably?
I wouldn't count on it.
I'm not counting on it, lol. I am indulging myself with a soupcon of faint faint hope, like a grind of fine kampot pepper to liven up the dull gruel of daily Covid shiteness
So all of this over a possible 3k hospitalisations per day under the same model that got the 7k per day wrong last time out?
The hundred Tory politicians need to hold firm and tell Boris and to get fucked. No more lockdowns, no more restrictions, no more tyranny of unelected experts.
Unelected experts > Elected morons. You're seriously more happy with the our fate in the hands of the geniuses who make plugging Peppa Pig part of government policy?
Any day of the week, I can vote out the Peppa pig crew if I disagree with them. I have no way of voting out the expert class. Your faith in them is disturbing, it's sad that so many British people are so comfortable with living in a technocratic country where they have zero influence on the big decisions of the day.
Whilst I appreciate the sentiment, there is a basic issue of competence. Doctors, scientists, medics are capable of diagnosing if that lump on your bollock is cancerous or not. A gob on legs Tory MP ideologically focused on getting you and your cancerous testes back to work is not.
So whilst you want want to listen to the person saying "its fine, back to work" the problem is that they don't have the first fucking clue what they are saying. Which is why the couple of MPs who have said "we've had enough of these unelected Doctors, listen to us elected people and our Prime Minister" are being so roundly laughed at.
I appreciate this sentiment, but you are assuming that true expertise can be acquired in all disciplines. There are disciplines, such as law, aviation, and medicine, where the processes involved are either linear, or (if the processes are complex and adaptive) there are enough instances of them and hence enough data that we can indeed accumulate expertise. Fire fighters and naval aviators are good examples of such experts in complex adaptive systems.
But then there are Black Swans, like a once in a century pandemic, that are both complex adaptive systems and are rare enough that no-one has the data sets from which to acquire expertise. COVID's impact on society at large is one such example.
No-one, not even the best scientists who have genuine expertise in their defined disciplines, is expert on what approach is best for COVID at a societal level. Everyone is stabbing in the dark.
So spare me this have faith in the 'experts'. No-one is expert - some are just better at faking it.
Sure. But we're being offered a choice between the experts who may have bits of it wrong or MPs with no training who may be lucky to guess a fraction of it right.
So I back the experts. Their wrong is worth more than a gobshite ideologue MP's right.
If what you're saying is we go with Chris Whitty or Desmond Swayne then I agree it's a no brainer. Sorry Dez.
So all of this over a possible 3k hospitalisations per day under the same model that got the 7k per day wrong last time out?
The hundred Tory politicians need to hold firm and tell Boris and to get fucked. No more lockdowns, no more restrictions, no more tyranny of unelected experts.
Unelected experts > Elected morons. You're seriously more happy with the our fate in the hands of the geniuses who make plugging Peppa Pig part of government policy?
Any day of the week, I can vote out the Peppa pig crew if I disagree with them. I have no way of voting out the expert class. Your faith in them is disturbing, it's sad that so many British people are so comfortable with living in a technocratic country where they have zero influence on the big decisions of the day.
Whilst I appreciate the sentiment, there is a basic issue of competence. Doctors, scientists, medics are capable of diagnosing if that lump on your bollock is cancerous or not. A gob on legs Tory MP ideologically focused on getting you and your cancerous testes back to work is not.
So whilst you want want to listen to the person saying "its fine, back to work" the problem is that they don't have the first fucking clue what they are saying. Which is why the couple of MPs who have said "we've had enough of these unelected Doctors, listen to us elected people and our Prime Minister" are being so roundly laughed at.
I appreciate this sentiment, but you are assuming that true expertise can be acquired in all disciplines. There are disciplines, such as law, aviation, and medicine, where the processes involved are either linear, or (if the processes are complex and adaptive) there are enough instances of them and hence enough data that we can indeed accumulate expertise. Fire fighters and naval aviators are good examples of such experts in complex adaptive systems.
But then there are Black Swans, like a once in a century pandemic, that are both complex adaptive systems and are rare enough that no-one has the data sets from which to acquire expertise. COVID's impact on society at large is one such example.
No-one, not even the best scientists who have genuine expertise in their defined disciplines, is expert on what approach is best for COVID at a societal level. Everyone is stabbing in the dark.
So spare me this have faith in the 'experts'. No-one is expert - some are just better at faking it.
Sure. But we're being offered a choice between the experts who may have bits of it wrong or MPs with no training who may be lucky to guess a fraction of it right.
So I back the experts. Their wrong is worth more than a gobshite ideologue MP's right.
Look, I did modelling (the Excel kind) for 20 years as a professional career. I can tell you this now that this idea that the ‘model is right’ or ‘follow the numbers / science’ is bollocks. Models are not neutral beings, they reflect the biases of their creators. Which is why you take 20 financial analysts’ models of the same company and they will have 20 different outcomes.
If you blindly trust the experts, you are as much of an idiot as those who blindly trust politicians.
Blind trust? No. But the simple truth is that the "forget the experts we are in charge" MPs are blind - literally. Saying "No lockdown because we don't want one" is fine - thats a political choice. But don't attack the medics for using their brains and experience and skill to analyse the situation just because you don't like their findings - just say you are making a different decision.
This is the problem. Normal people are far more likely to follow Chris Whitty than Joy Morrissey. So they have to attack the whole idea of having a doctor because otherwise how do you persuade them that someone with no medical or scientific training is the better person to advise what we do?
Looks like just over a million jabs a day is probably going to be max.
They won't make target / aspiration, but will get a hell of a lot done.
It was a stupid target
The purpose of a target is to push yourself towards it.
If things had been left to the NHS we would still be down at 200k per day.
It is the Tories' fault we're in the booster hole, they spent all Summer doing sod all
Given what we now know about boosters, if we had boostered oldies in the summer, we would be doing them again now.
Should we have done kids during the summer holidays. Yes. But JCVI recommendations said no.
Should we have done oldies slightly earlier and faster, and a wider group of oldies. Yes. But JCVI rules recommendations said no.
You partisanship some times is way OTT.
Why am only I attacked for partisanship even when I'm making a fairly reasonable point? I don't see you attacking Tories
In this specific instance it isn't reasonable to expect a government to overturn the decision of an independent medical advisory committee. No sensible politician would, otherwise you get into Trump territory of advising bleach and giving anti-vaxxer massive amounts of ammunition.
I have spent the past 2 years consistently pointing out the dumb shit the government have done time and time again. Go and check my 60k posts, there are absolutely loads of posts saying, FFS Boris has bottled a lockdown, he is leaving it too late. I was also massively critical of the idea of the tier system. I said we should have had border restrictions straight away during March 2020....I advocated for the sort of scheme Australia have employed....I said the government needed to kick SAGE up the arse in the summer and have them actually making a plan, when in fact they didn't meet for 2 months...
I could go on and on and on.
Agreed. The truth is, we don't know how bad Omicron will be. With vaccines the landing point for hospitalisations and serious illness is likely to be between somewhat better than Delta without vaccines and somewhat worse. That's what serious and informed people investigating this are coming up with, not all of whom can be dismissed because they don't accord with our prejudices.
If we collectively think we are not prepared to do another lockdown and will take whatever Omicron throws at us, that's a valid decision to make. But let's not say, we're not doing another lockdown, and then do it anyway as the hospital system buckles under the strain.
But the totally INFURIATING thing is that UKG has made virtually no attempt to punish, tax or chide the antivaxxers into getting the jab. They are the reason we are back in the shit. Look at @foxy's post today - every Covid victim in his ICU is unvaxxed
WHY is the government so totally spineless on this issue? Fear of being seen as racist? Fear of the "libertarian lobby"?
Before they make my life miserable, and condemn my kids to more damaged mental health, perhaps the fucking government could tackle the people who are causing all this shit, rather than jailing absolutely everyone
I like the idea of a COVID NHS tax at 1% per year to help the NHS pay for COVID care which is refunded to people when they reach fully vaccinated status. That would get loads of people in the door as getting the vaccine is being linked to helping the NHS, lots of people still haven't made that connection.
I suspect quite a few of the unvaxxed aren't paying tax... including children of course.
The real answer is make it hard to go places / do things. Restrict the unvaccinated* as you would smokers, with a few exceptions (hospitals, schools, can't think on many others tbh).
It's going to happen eventually anyway, so why delay?
(*With an exemption cert for thos that can't be vaccinated of course.)
Because it won't help. The most likely unvaccinated person who might end up in hospital is going to be a 60-70 year old South Asian Muslim who doesn't drink, doesn't smoke and doesn't go to the pub, theatre, non-Halal restaurants, shops at the local Asian shop run by one of his mates who also doesn't smoke, doesn't drink, doesn't go to the pub, theatre or non-Halal restaurants.
Vaccine passports might get a few extra under 40s to get vaccinated, sure, but that's not going to change the healthcare situation. They will do precisely zero to get those over 60s who are unvaccinated into the funnel. The unvaccinated in these cohorts will not be inconvenienced by them because nowhere they go need them or will bother implementing them.
Vaccine passports are another one of those "let's look like we're doing something" measures. A tax at least raises some money.
Do you have some facts to support that frankly dubious "South Asian Muslim" assertion ?
I ask because the latest ICNARC report shows that 74% of patients admitted to ICU with Covid since May 2021 have been white. The ratios (rounded) are: White 74% Mixed 2% Asian 11% Black 8% Other 6%
So yes, asian and black people are over represented but not massivley so. And consider also the wealth/deprivation breakdown. ICU covid patients are 3 times more likely to be from the most deprived quitile than from the least deprived.
Yes, the areas with the lowest vax rates. I'm not being obnoxious, I'm just being realistic. If anything I think a vaccine passport will just reaffirm the pre-existing belief that they are seen as "other" and being persecuted or somehow singled out because of the skin colour, religion etc...
There are so many better ways of getting these people vaccinated, a vaccine passport will achieve the sum total of fuck all. Countries that have implemented them still have many millions of older unvaccinated people but more under 40s vaccinated. Explain to me, other than making you feel superior, exactly what that achieves?
Looks like just over a million jabs a day is probably going to be max.
They won't make target / aspiration, but will get a hell of a lot done.
It was a stupid target
The purpose of a target is to push yourself towards it.
If things had been left to the NHS we would still be down at 200k per day.
It is the Tories' fault we're in the booster hole, they spent all Summer doing sod all
Given what we now know about boosters, if we had boostered oldies in the summer, we would be doing them again now.
Should we have done kids during the summer holidays. Yes. But JCVI recommendations said no.
Should we have done oldies slightly earlier and faster, and a wider group of oldies. Yes. But JCVI rules recommendations said no.
You partisanship some times is way OTT.
Why am only I attacked for partisanship even when I'm making a fairly reasonable point? I don't see you attacking Tories
In this specific instance it isn't reasonable to expect a government to overturn the decision of an independent medical advisory committee. No sensible politician would, otherwise you get into Trump territory of advising bleach and giving anti-vaxxer massive amounts of ammunition.
I have spent the past 2 years consistently pointing out the dumb shit the government have done time and time again. Go and check my 60k posts, there are absolutely loads of posts saying, FFS Boris has bottled a lockdown, he is leaving it too late. I was also massively critical of the idea of the tier system. I said we should have had border restrictions straight away during March 2020....I advocated for the sort of scheme Australia have employed....I said the government needed to kick SAGE up the arse in the summer and have them actually making a plan, when in fact they didn't meet for 2 months...
I could go on and on and on.
Agreed. The truth is, we don't know how bad Omicron will be. With vaccines the landing point for hospitalisations and serious illness is likely to be between somewhat better than Delta without vaccines and somewhat worse. That's what serious and informed people investigating this are coming up with, not all of whom can be dismissed because they don't accord with our prejudices.
If we collectively think we are not prepared to do another lockdown and will take whatever Omicron throws at us, that's a valid decision to make. But let's not say, we're not doing another lockdown, and then do it anyway as the hospital system buckles under the strain.
But the totally INFURIATING thing is that UKG has made virtually no attempt to punish, tax or chide the antivaxxers into getting the jab. They are the reason we are back in the shit. Look at @foxy's post today - every Covid victim in his ICU is unvaxxed
WHY is the government so totally spineless on this issue? Fear of being seen as racist? Fear of the "libertarian lobby"?
Before they make my life miserable, and condemn my kids to more damaged mental health, perhaps the fucking government could tackle the people who are causing all this shit, rather than jailing absolutely everyone
I like the idea of a COVID NHS tax at 1% per year to help the NHS pay for COVID care which is refunded to people when they reach fully vaccinated status. That would get loads of people in the door as getting the vaccine is being linked to helping the NHS, lots of people still haven't made that connection.
I suspect quite a few of the unvaxxed aren't paying tax... including children of course.
The real answer is make it hard to go places / do things. Restrict the unvaccinated* as you would smokers, with a few exceptions (hospitals, schools, can't think on many others tbh).
It's going to happen eventually anyway, so why delay?
(*With an exemption cert for thos that can't be vaccinated of course.)
Because it won't help. The most likely unvaccinated person who might end up in hospital is going to be a 60-70 year old South Asian Muslim who doesn't drink, doesn't smoke and doesn't go to the pub, theatre, non-Halal restaurants, shops at the local Asian shop run by one of his mates who also doesn't smoke, doesn't drink, doesn't go to the pub, theatre or non-Halal restaurants.
Vaccine passports might get a few extra under 40s to get vaccinated, sure, but that's not going to change the healthcare situation. They will do precisely zero to get those over 60s who are unvaccinated into the funnel. The unvaccinated in these cohorts will not be inconvenienced by them because nowhere they go need them or will bother implementing them.
Vaccine passports are another one of those "let's look like we're doing something" measures. A tax at least raises some money.
Yes, but as a few people point out there, if I go to the pub and I look under-age (obviously not now but back in the day), I was ID’d. No one said “you’re infringing on my civil liberties” or “it’s a disgrace”, you accepted it. No ID, no drink.
I suspect the howls of outrage from certain areas are because they realise they benefit from certain “loose” practices.
If it were the case, though, that people without photo ID were more likely to vote a certain way (being - say - poorer than average), then it wouldn't be unreasonable to suspect the motives were not entirely pure.
In any case, I have proposed a perfectly sensible solution to this, that eliminates personation as a crime, without penalising those without photo ID. They have a polaroid camera at the polling station, and those without Photo ID sign the back testifying to who they are.
After the election (and especially in the event of a very close result), one can confirm whether the person in the photo is who they say they are. The number of people who would commit personation while having their photo taken is going to be very, very small.
I think that if Labour offered the EU a customs union (thereby eliminating most of the Northern Ireland issues) and general sensible cooperation on issues of joint concern there would be a warm response from the EU, and only a smallish minority of British voters would be really upset.
That’s been the obvious compromise and common sense approach since Mrs May took office, and her term would have gone very differently had she spent her honeymoon capital on telling her nutters some home truths and steering the country in that direction. Sooner or later we’ll get a government that recognises that Norway or Switzerland offer more realistic examples than Singapore.
So Labour would make us a rule taker from the EU with no input. And open up the flood gates on immigration too?
Feels like the centrepiece of a Tory campaign.
Brexit itself effectively makes the UK a rule taker without input. It's taking a long time for people to absorb that fact. Why do you think Johnson is calling off Article 16, giving the French all those fishing licences and accepting CE quality marks and EU REACH classifications? It's not out of any feeling of generosity to the more powerful player. It's because divergence or non-implementation comes with a cost that isn't worth paying. Eventually people will realise that and decide to formalise the adherence in exchange for commitments from the other side. Which is where preferential terms on customs etc come in.
The polling on Brexit shows the most important things were (1) wanting laws to be made in the UK and (2) immigration. In that order. Starmer will lose any gains if he does either or looks like he is going to do either.
But (2) is far more clearcut. Free Movement is totemic and not open to fudge. (1) is in the eye of the beholder to a great extent.
I think Freedom of Movement is open to some negotiation. The UK and EU have partnership agreements where they commit to treat the others citizens passing through in a particular way. A future agreement could be more liberal on this than the current arrangement.
Yes, we are all aware of the Remainer arguments and we had a referendum campaign about it. The line that alignment is more important than democratic control was one considered and tossed out. If Remainers like Starmer, who tried to overturn a democratic referendum, try to do the same thing again by the back door, the public will swing back to the Tories.
It's not a Remainer argument or anything to do with the referendum etc. It's simply that there's a price tag on this proposed divergence that in practice we're not prepared to pay unless we have to. Take REACH. A UK implementation apparently costs an additional £2 billion for companies that mostly have to meet EU standards anyway. The government hasn't entirely abandoned the idea, but it is postponed. At a certain point, a UK government will say, we're meeting EU standards, why don't we try to get recognition of that for preferential trading terms? Are people at that point going to say, no, we insist companies take on this unnecessary burden and we'll vote Conservative to ensure it happens?
I suppose some will. But in a contest between rhetoric and reality, reality will eventually prevail. I know it hasn't happened yet, but give it time. My sentiment is that shift will start happening before too long.
(((Dan Hodges))) @DPJHodges · 1h Understand people's Omicron concerns. But we were told vaccines would remove the need for lockdowns. If that's no longer the case, OK. But we need to have a serious debate. Because I just don't see how a cycle of perpetually locking, then unlocking, society is sustainable.
Eventually COVID is going to become less lethal as variants develop that don't kill people as much but still spread quickly, meaning it gives immunity from the more lethal kinds. In addition vaccines will get better like they have for the flu. As we transition to that we will still have lockdowns but they will be fewer, shorter and further between.
Eventually we will have none at all, but this process is going to take years. But part of the problem is that 21st Century Westerners are pampered in more luxury, entertainment and general pleasure seeking than anyone else in human history. They are too soft mentally to get through this.
Didn’t we have this line of argument last year, the old “it will become less lethal so we can all get back to normal etc etc” yet here we are having another major lockdown and everyone talking about how Omicrom could be as lethal as previous variants. I’m sure next year - when we have another variant - this same old trope will be rolled out again to justify another lockdown.
More accurate to say "yet here we are with everyone speculating we're going to have another major lockdown."
And reading things wrong imo. Because we're not.
You're either delusionally optimistic, or you have such a strict definition of lockdown it doesn't include "shutting all indoor hospitality, imposing the rule of 6, everyone work from home"
Which is it? I would genuinely like to know, because from my perspective we are certainly going to get a Plan C, very soon, and it's beginning to look a lot like Lockdown
This is why the Tory party was so against plan b, it sets us on the path to more and more restrictions. If the mindset is "this will make a difference" and it doesn't then you need the next thing that will "make a difference" and so on until, like the Netherlands, you've got to a full lockdown because the government doesn't have the stones to say it doesn't care if the unvaccinated by choice kick the bucket at home.
The Dutch have now got a near four week hard lockdown. In the depths of a north European winter. It will likely be extended. They are torturing their own people, to protect the stupid and selfish, and we are entering the third year of this shite
Like many readers of history, I've always wondered how and why advanced, educated countries tolerated the absurd, surreal horrors of the First World War. By the end of 1914 it was clear no one was going to "win easily", and that millions of young men would die in futile squalor
Yet families kept on sending their sons, month after month, year after year, to be fed into the Flanders meat grinder (and on other fronts too) and the people at home tolerated this insanity. Indeed, life went on as "normal"
- until it didn't, in places like Russia
Because it was better than German domination.
But a truce, if called in Christmas 1914, would have saved millions of lives and billions of pounds/marks on both sides (and might have prevented the rise of communism and Nazism)
And yet, on and on it went. An all-embracing disaster
Difficult to have a truce with Prussia-Germany when it ignores all the treaties it signed, invades neutral countries and isn't interested in anything but outright victory.
The concern has to be that the usual day to day network of most people's lives is about to be expanded as people go to visit family and friends over Christmas. That will ensure a large network effect in terms of spread. Thus even if it was starting to burn through London (which I think is a long way from that), its now going to get well seeded everywhere else.
Looks like just over a million jabs a day is probably going to be max.
They won't make target / aspiration, but will get a hell of a lot done.
It was a stupid target
The purpose of a target is to push yourself towards it.
If things had been left to the NHS we would still be down at 200k per day.
It is the Tories' fault we're in the booster hole, they spent all Summer doing sod all
Given what we now know about boosters, if we had boostered oldies in the summer, we would be doing them again now.
Should we have done kids during the summer holidays. Yes. But JCVI recommendations said no.
Should we have done oldies slightly earlier and faster, and a wider group of oldies. Yes. But JCVI rules recommendations said no.
You partisanship some times is way OTT.
Why am only I attacked for partisanship even when I'm making a fairly reasonable point? I don't see you attacking Tories
In this specific instance it isn't reasonable to expect a government to overturn the decision of an independent medical advisory committee. No sensible politician would, otherwise you get into Trump territory of advising bleach and giving anti-vaxxer massive amounts of ammunition.
I have spent the past 2 years consistently pointing out the dumb shit the government have done time and time again. Go and check my 60k posts, there are absolutely loads of posts saying, FFS Boris has bottled a lockdown, he is leaving it too late. I was also massively critical of the idea of the tier system. I said we should have had border restrictions straight away during March 2020....I advocated for the sort of scheme Australia have employed....I said the government needed to kick SAGE up the arse in the summer and have them actually making a plan, when in fact they didn't meet for 2 months...
I could go on and on and on.
Agreed. The truth is, we don't know how bad Omicron will be. With vaccines the landing point for hospitalisations and serious illness is likely to be between somewhat better than Delta without vaccines and somewhat worse. That's what serious and informed people investigating this are coming up with, not all of whom can be dismissed because they don't accord with our prejudices.
If we collectively think we are not prepared to do another lockdown and will take whatever Omicron throws at us, that's a valid decision to make. But let's not say, we're not doing another lockdown, and then do it anyway as the hospital system buckles under the strain.
But the totally INFURIATING thing is that UKG has made virtually no attempt to punish, tax or chide the antivaxxers into getting the jab. They are the reason we are back in the shit. Look at @foxy's post today - every Covid victim in his ICU is unvaxxed
WHY is the government so totally spineless on this issue? Fear of being seen as racist? Fear of the "libertarian lobby"?
Before they make my life miserable, and condemn my kids to more damaged mental health, perhaps the fucking government could tackle the people who are causing all this shit, rather than jailing absolutely everyone
This is the smartest thing you've said on COVID recently. Governments sooner or later are going to have to be a lot tougher on the anti-vaxxers. One obvious thing to do is to deprioritize anti-vaxxers for NHS treatment.
I agree, but not your last sentence. That would be a slippery slope imo. (Next exclude, addicts, then those who caused their own injuries,... Where do you stop?)
Denying unvaxed Covid suffers medical care is just not going to happen. It's an utterly pointless suggestion.
Looks like just over a million jabs a day is probably going to be max.
They won't make target / aspiration, but will get a hell of a lot done.
It was a stupid target
The purpose of a target is to push yourself towards it.
If things had been left to the NHS we would still be down at 200k per day.
It is the Tories' fault we're in the booster hole, they spent all Summer doing sod all
Given what we now know about boosters, if we had boostered oldies in the summer, we would be doing them again now.
Should we have done kids during the summer holidays. Yes. But JCVI recommendations said no.
Should we have done oldies slightly earlier and faster, and a wider group of oldies. Yes. But JCVI rules recommendations said no.
You partisanship some times is way OTT.
Why am only I attacked for partisanship even when I'm making a fairly reasonable point? I don't see you attacking Tories
In this specific instance it isn't reasonable to expect a government to overturn the decision of an independent medical advisory committee. No sensible politician would, otherwise you get into Trump territory of advising bleach and giving anti-vaxxer massive amounts of ammunition.
I have spent the past 2 years consistently pointing out the dumb shit the government have done time and time again. Go and check my 60k posts, there are absolutely loads of posts saying, FFS Boris has bottled a lockdown, he is leaving it too late. I was also massively critical of the idea of the tier system. I said we should have had border restrictions straight away during March 2020....I advocated for the sort of scheme Australia have employed....I said the government needed to kick SAGE up the arse in the summer and have them actually making a plan, when in fact they didn't meet for 2 months...
I could go on and on and on.
Agreed. The truth is, we don't know how bad Omicron will be. With vaccines the landing point for hospitalisations and serious illness is likely to be between somewhat better than Delta without vaccines and somewhat worse. That's what serious and informed people investigating this are coming up with, not all of whom can be dismissed because they don't accord with our prejudices.
If we collectively think we are not prepared to do another lockdown and will take whatever Omicron throws at us, that's a valid decision to make. But let's not say, we're not doing another lockdown, and then do it anyway as the hospital system buckles under the strain.
But the totally INFURIATING thing is that UKG has made virtually no attempt to punish, tax or chide the antivaxxers into getting the jab. They are the reason we are back in the shit. Look at @foxy's post today - every Covid victim in his ICU is unvaxxed
WHY is the government so totally spineless on this issue? Fear of being seen as racist? Fear of the "libertarian lobby"?
Before they make my life miserable, and condemn my kids to more damaged mental health, perhaps the fucking government could tackle the people who are causing all this shit, rather than jailing absolutely everyone
I like the idea of a COVID NHS tax at 1% per year to help the NHS pay for COVID care which is refunded to people when they reach fully vaccinated status. That would get loads of people in the door as getting the vaccine is being linked to helping the NHS, lots of people still haven't made that connection.
I suspect quite a few of the unvaxxed aren't paying tax... including children of course.
The real answer is make it hard to go places / do things. Restrict the unvaccinated* as you would smokers, with a few exceptions (hospitals, schools, can't think on many others tbh).
It's going to happen eventually anyway, so why delay?
(*With an exemption cert for thos that can't be vaccinated of course.)
Because it won't help. The most likely unvaccinated person who might end up in hospital is going to be a 60-70 year old South Asian Muslim who doesn't drink, doesn't smoke and doesn't go to the pub, theatre, non-Halal restaurants, shops at the local Asian shop run by one of his mates who also doesn't smoke, doesn't drink, doesn't go to the pub, theatre or non-Halal restaurants.
Vaccine passports might get a few extra under 40s to get vaccinated, sure, but that's not going to change the healthcare situation. They will do precisely zero to get those over 60s who are unvaccinated into the funnel. The unvaccinated in these cohorts will not be inconvenienced by them because nowhere they go need them or will bother implementing them.
Vaccine passports are another one of those "let's look like we're doing something" measures. A tax at least raises some money.
Do you have some facts to support that frankly obnoxious "South Asian Muslim" assertion ?
I ask because the latest ICNARC report shows that 74% of patients admitted to ICU with Covid since May 2021 have been white. The ratios (rounded) are: White 74% Mixed 2% Asian 11% Black 8% Other 6%
So yes, asian and black people are over represented but not massivley so. And consider also the wealth/deprivation breakdown. ICU covid patients are 3 times more likely to be from the most deprived quitile than from the least deprived.
Looks like just over a million jabs a day is probably going to be max.
They won't make target / aspiration, but will get a hell of a lot done.
It was a stupid target
The purpose of a target is to push yourself towards it.
If things had been left to the NHS we would still be down at 200k per day.
It is the Tories' fault we're in the booster hole, they spent all Summer doing sod all
Given what we now know about boosters, if we had boostered oldies in the summer, we would be doing them again now.
Should we have done kids during the summer holidays. Yes. But JCVI recommendations said no.
Should we have done oldies slightly earlier and faster, and a wider group of oldies. Yes. But JCVI rules recommendations said no.
You partisanship some times is way OTT.
Why am only I attacked for partisanship even when I'm making a fairly reasonable point? I don't see you attacking Tories
In this specific instance it isn't reasonable to expect a government to overturn the decision of an independent medical advisory committee. No sensible politician would, otherwise you get into Trump territory of advising bleach and giving anti-vaxxer massive amounts of ammunition.
I have spent the past 2 years consistently pointing out the dumb shit the government have done time and time again. Go and check my 60k posts, there are absolutely loads of posts saying, FFS Boris has bottled a lockdown, he is leaving it too late. I was also massively critical of the idea of the tier system. I said we should have had border restrictions straight away during March 2020....I advocated for the sort of scheme Australia have employed....I said the government needed to kick SAGE up the arse in the summer and have them actually making a plan, when in fact they didn't meet for 2 months...
I could go on and on and on.
Agreed. The truth is, we don't know how bad Omicron will be. With vaccines the landing point for hospitalisations and serious illness is likely to be between somewhat better than Delta without vaccines and somewhat worse. That's what serious and informed people investigating this are coming up with, not all of whom can be dismissed because they don't accord with our prejudices.
If we collectively think we are not prepared to do another lockdown and will take whatever Omicron throws at us, that's a valid decision to make. But let's not say, we're not doing another lockdown, and then do it anyway as the hospital system buckles under the strain.
But the totally INFURIATING thing is that UKG has made virtually no attempt to punish, tax or chide the antivaxxers into getting the jab. They are the reason we are back in the shit. Look at @foxy's post today - every Covid victim in his ICU is unvaxxed
WHY is the government so totally spineless on this issue? Fear of being seen as racist? Fear of the "libertarian lobby"?
Before they make my life miserable, and condemn my kids to more damaged mental health, perhaps the fucking government could tackle the people who are causing all this shit, rather than jailing absolutely everyone
I like the idea of a COVID NHS tax at 1% per year to help the NHS pay for COVID care which is refunded to people when they reach fully vaccinated status. That would get loads of people in the door as getting the vaccine is being linked to helping the NHS, lots of people still haven't made that connection.
I suspect quite a few of the unvaxxed aren't paying tax... including children of course.
The real answer is make it hard to go places / do things. Restrict the unvaccinated* as you would smokers, with a few exceptions (hospitals, schools, can't think on many others tbh).
It's going to happen eventually anyway, so why delay?
(*With an exemption cert for thos that can't be vaccinated of course.)
Because it won't help. The most likely unvaccinated person who might end up in hospital is going to be a 60-70 year old South Asian Muslim who doesn't drink, doesn't smoke and doesn't go to the pub, theatre, non-Halal restaurants, shops at the local Asian shop run by one of his mates who also doesn't smoke, doesn't drink, doesn't go to the pub, theatre or non-Halal restaurants.
Vaccine passports might get a few extra under 40s to get vaccinated, sure, but that's not going to change the healthcare situation. They will do precisely zero to get those over 60s who are unvaccinated into the funnel. The unvaccinated in these cohorts will not be inconvenienced by them because nowhere they go need them or will bother implementing them.
Vaccine passports are another one of those "let's look like we're doing something" measures. A tax at least raises some money.
Do you have some facts to support that frankly dubious "South Asian Muslim" assertion ?
I ask because the latest ICNARC report shows that 74% of patients admitted to ICU with Covid since May 2021 have been white. The ratios (rounded) are: White 74% Mixed 2% Asian 11% Black 8% Other 6%
So yes, asian and black people are over represented but not massivley so. And consider also the wealth/deprivation breakdown. ICU covid patients are 3 times more likely to be from the most deprived quitile than from the least deprived.
(((Dan Hodges))) @DPJHodges · 1h Understand people's Omicron concerns. But we were told vaccines would remove the need for lockdowns. If that's no longer the case, OK. But we need to have a serious debate. Because I just don't see how a cycle of perpetually locking, then unlocking, society is sustainable.
Eventually COVID is going to become less lethal as variants develop that don't kill people as much but still spread quickly, meaning it gives immunity from the more lethal kinds. In addition vaccines will get better like they have for the flu. As we transition to that we will still have lockdowns but they will be fewer, shorter and further between.
Eventually we will have none at all, but this process is going to take years. But part of the problem is that 21st Century Westerners are pampered in more luxury, entertainment and general pleasure seeking than anyone else in human history. They are too soft mentally to get through this.
Didn’t we have this line of argument last year, the old “it will become less lethal so we can all get back to normal etc etc” yet here we are having another major lockdown and everyone talking about how Omicrom could be as lethal as previous variants. I’m sure next year - when we have another variant - this same old trope will be rolled out again to justify another lockdown.
More accurate to say "yet here we are with everyone speculating we're going to have another major lockdown."
And reading things wrong imo. Because we're not.
You're either delusionally optimistic, or you have such a strict definition of lockdown it doesn't include "shutting all indoor hospitality, imposing the rule of 6, everyone work from home"
Which is it? I would genuinely like to know, because from my perspective we are certainly going to get a Plan C, very soon, and it's beginning to look a lot like Lockdown
This is why the Tory party was so against plan b, it sets us on the path to more and more restrictions. If the mindset is "this will make a difference" and it doesn't then you need the next thing that will "make a difference" and so on until, like the Netherlands, you've got to a full lockdown because the government doesn't have the stones to say it doesn't care if the unvaccinated by choice kick the bucket at home.
The worst thing about the incoming 2 week lockdown will be the ninth week.
Why would they present a 9 week lockdown as only being for 2 weeks?
(((Dan Hodges))) @DPJHodges · 1h Understand people's Omicron concerns. But we were told vaccines would remove the need for lockdowns. If that's no longer the case, OK. But we need to have a serious debate. Because I just don't see how a cycle of perpetually locking, then unlocking, society is sustainable.
Eventually COVID is going to become less lethal as variants develop that don't kill people as much but still spread quickly, meaning it gives immunity from the more lethal kinds. In addition vaccines will get better like they have for the flu. As we transition to that we will still have lockdowns but they will be fewer, shorter and further between.
Eventually we will have none at all, but this process is going to take years. But part of the problem is that 21st Century Westerners are pampered in more luxury, entertainment and general pleasure seeking than anyone else in human history. They are too soft mentally to get through this.
Didn’t we have this line of argument last year, the old “it will become less lethal so we can all get back to normal etc etc” yet here we are having another major lockdown and everyone talking about how Omicrom could be as lethal as previous variants. I’m sure next year - when we have another variant - this same old trope will be rolled out again to justify another lockdown.
More accurate to say "yet here we are with everyone speculating we're going to have another major lockdown."
And reading things wrong imo. Because we're not.
You're either delusionally optimistic, or you have such a strict definition of lockdown it doesn't include "shutting all indoor hospitality, imposing the rule of 6, everyone work from home"
Which is it? I would genuinely like to know, because from my perspective we are certainly going to get a Plan C, very soon, and it's beginning to look a lot like Lockdown
This is why the Tory party was so against plan b, it sets us on the path to more and more restrictions. If the mindset is "this will make a difference" and it doesn't then you need the next thing that will "make a difference" and so on until, like the Netherlands, you've got to a full lockdown because the government doesn't have the stones to say it doesn't care if the unvaccinated by choice kick the bucket at home.
The worst thing about the incoming 2 week lockdown will be the ninth week.
Why would they present a 9 week lockdown as only being for 2 weeks?
Because when the metrics don’t improve after two weeks, it gets extended. Then when metrics don’t improve after four weeks...
(((Dan Hodges))) @DPJHodges · 1h Understand people's Omicron concerns. But we were told vaccines would remove the need for lockdowns. If that's no longer the case, OK. But we need to have a serious debate. Because I just don't see how a cycle of perpetually locking, then unlocking, society is sustainable.
Eventually COVID is going to become less lethal as variants develop that don't kill people as much but still spread quickly, meaning it gives immunity from the more lethal kinds. In addition vaccines will get better like they have for the flu. As we transition to that we will still have lockdowns but they will be fewer, shorter and further between.
Eventually we will have none at all, but this process is going to take years. But part of the problem is that 21st Century Westerners are pampered in more luxury, entertainment and general pleasure seeking than anyone else in human history. They are too soft mentally to get through this.
Didn’t we have this line of argument last year, the old “it will become less lethal so we can all get back to normal etc etc” yet here we are having another major lockdown and everyone talking about how Omicrom could be as lethal as previous variants. I’m sure next year - when we have another variant - this same old trope will be rolled out again to justify another lockdown.
More accurate to say "yet here we are with everyone speculating we're going to have another major lockdown."
And reading things wrong imo. Because we're not.
You're either delusionally optimistic, or you have such a strict definition of lockdown it doesn't include "shutting all indoor hospitality, imposing the rule of 6, everyone work from home"
Which is it? I would genuinely like to know, because from my perspective we are certainly going to get a Plan C, very soon, and it's beginning to look a lot like Lockdown
This is why the Tory party was so against plan b, it sets us on the path to more and more restrictions. If the mindset is "this will make a difference" and it doesn't then you need the next thing that will "make a difference" and so on until, like the Netherlands, you've got to a full lockdown because the government doesn't have the stones to say it doesn't care if the unvaccinated by choice kick the bucket at home.
The worst thing about the incoming 2 week lockdown will be the ninth week.
Why would they present a 9 week lockdown as only being for 2 weeks?
Isn't that how they always do it? The Dutch said their indoor curfew would only last two weeks. Here they are entering a new "four week" full lockdown 6 weeks later.
Looks like just over a million jabs a day is probably going to be max.
They won't make target / aspiration, but will get a hell of a lot done.
It was a stupid target
The purpose of a target is to push yourself towards it.
If things had been left to the NHS we would still be down at 200k per day.
It is the Tories' fault we're in the booster hole, they spent all Summer doing sod all
Given what we now know about boosters, if we had boostered oldies in the summer, we would be doing them again now.
Should we have done kids during the summer holidays. Yes. But JCVI recommendations said no.
Should we have done oldies slightly earlier and faster, and a wider group of oldies. Yes. But JCVI rules recommendations said no.
You partisanship some times is way OTT.
Why am only I attacked for partisanship even when I'm making a fairly reasonable point? I don't see you attacking Tories
In this specific instance it isn't reasonable to expect a government to overturn the decision of an independent medical advisory committee. No sensible politician would, otherwise you get into Trump territory of advising bleach and giving anti-vaxxer massive amounts of ammunition.
I have spent the past 2 years consistently pointing out the dumb shit the government have done time and time again. Go and check my 60k posts, there are absolutely loads of posts saying, FFS Boris has bottled a lockdown, he is leaving it too late. I was also massively critical of the idea of the tier system. I said we should have had border restrictions straight away during March 2020....I advocated for the sort of scheme Australia have employed....I said the government needed to kick SAGE up the arse in the summer and have them actually making a plan, when in fact they didn't meet for 2 months...
I could go on and on and on.
Agreed. The truth is, we don't know how bad Omicron will be. With vaccines the landing point for hospitalisations and serious illness is likely to be between somewhat better than Delta without vaccines and somewhat worse. That's what serious and informed people investigating this are coming up with, not all of whom can be dismissed because they don't accord with our prejudices.
If we collectively think we are not prepared to do another lockdown and will take whatever Omicron throws at us, that's a valid decision to make. But let's not say, we're not doing another lockdown, and then do it anyway as the hospital system buckles under the strain.
But the totally INFURIATING thing is that UKG has made virtually no attempt to punish, tax or chide the antivaxxers into getting the jab. They are the reason we are back in the shit. Look at @foxy's post today - every Covid victim in his ICU is unvaxxed
WHY is the government so totally spineless on this issue? Fear of being seen as racist? Fear of the "libertarian lobby"?
Before they make my life miserable, and condemn my kids to more damaged mental health, perhaps the fucking government could tackle the people who are causing all this shit, rather than jailing absolutely everyone
Anti-vaxxers are the useful idiots of authoritarian zero-covidiots, libertarian fantasists and NHS worshippers.
Looks like just over a million jabs a day is probably going to be max.
They won't make target / aspiration, but will get a hell of a lot done.
It was a stupid target
The purpose of a target is to push yourself towards it.
If things had been left to the NHS we would still be down at 200k per day.
It is the Tories' fault we're in the booster hole, they spent all Summer doing sod all
Given what we now know about boosters, if we had boostered oldies in the summer, we would be doing them again now.
Should we have done kids during the summer holidays. Yes. But JCVI recommendations said no.
Should we have done oldies slightly earlier and faster, and a wider group of oldies. Yes. But JCVI rules recommendations said no.
You partisanship some times is way OTT.
Why am only I attacked for partisanship even when I'm making a fairly reasonable point? I don't see you attacking Tories
In this specific instance it isn't reasonable to expect a government to overturn the decision of an independent medical advisory committee. No sensible politician would, otherwise you get into Trump territory of advising bleach and giving anti-vaxxer massive amounts of ammunition.
I have spent the past 2 years consistently pointing out the dumb shit the government have done time and time again. Go and check my 60k posts, there are absolutely loads of posts saying, FFS Boris has bottled a lockdown, he is leaving it too late. I was also massively critical of the idea of the tier system. I said we should have had border restrictions straight away during March 2020....I advocated for the sort of scheme Australia have employed....I said the government needed to kick SAGE up the arse in the summer and have them actually making a plan, when in fact they didn't meet for 2 months...
I could go on and on and on.
Agreed. The truth is, we don't know how bad Omicron will be. With vaccines the landing point for hospitalisations and serious illness is likely to be between somewhat better than Delta without vaccines and somewhat worse. That's what serious and informed people investigating this are coming up with, not all of whom can be dismissed because they don't accord with our prejudices.
If we collectively think we are not prepared to do another lockdown and will take whatever Omicron throws at us, that's a valid decision to make. But let's not say, we're not doing another lockdown, and then do it anyway as the hospital system buckles under the strain.
But the totally INFURIATING thing is that UKG has made virtually no attempt to punish, tax or chide the antivaxxers into getting the jab. They are the reason we are back in the shit. Look at @foxy's post today - every Covid victim in his ICU is unvaxxed
WHY is the government so totally spineless on this issue? Fear of being seen as racist? Fear of the "libertarian lobby"?
Before they make my life miserable, and condemn my kids to more damaged mental health, perhaps the fucking government could tackle the people who are causing all this shit, rather than jailing absolutely everyone
I like the idea of a COVID NHS tax at 1% per year to help the NHS pay for COVID care which is refunded to people when they reach fully vaccinated status. That would get loads of people in the door as getting the vaccine is being linked to helping the NHS, lots of people still haven't made that connection.
I suspect quite a few of the unvaxxed aren't paying tax... including children of course.
The real answer is make it hard to go places / do things. Restrict the unvaccinated* as you would smokers, with a few exceptions (hospitals, schools, can't think on many others tbh).
It's going to happen eventually anyway, so why delay?
(*With an exemption cert for thos that can't be vaccinated of course.)
Because it won't help. The most likely unvaccinated person who might end up in hospital is going to be a 60-70 year old South Asian Muslim who doesn't drink, doesn't smoke and doesn't go to the pub, theatre, non-Halal restaurants, shops at the local Asian shop run by one of his mates who also doesn't smoke, doesn't drink, doesn't go to the pub, theatre or non-Halal restaurants.
Vaccine passports might get a few extra under 40s to get vaccinated, sure, but that's not going to change the healthcare situation. They will do precisely zero to get those over 60s who are unvaccinated into the funnel. The unvaccinated in these cohorts will not be inconvenienced by them because nowhere they go need them or will bother implementing them.
Vaccine passports are another one of those "let's look like we're doing something" measures. A tax at least raises some money.
Do you have some facts to support that frankly dubious "South Asian Muslim" assertion ?
I ask because the latest ICNARC report shows that 74% of patients admitted to ICU with Covid since May 2021 have been white. The ratios (rounded) are: White 74% Mixed 2% Asian 11% Black 8% Other 6%
So yes, asian and black people are over represented but not massivley so. And consider also the wealth/deprivation breakdown. ICU covid patients are 3 times more likely to be from the most deprived quitile than from the least deprived.
Yes, the areas with the lowest vax rates. I'm not being obnoxious, I'm just being realistic. If anything I think a vaccine passport will just reaffirm the pre-existing belief that they are seen as "other" and being persecuted or somehow singled out because of the skin colour, religion etc...
There are so many better ways of getting these people vaccinated, a vaccine passport will achieve the sum total of fuck all. Countries that have implemented them still have many millions of older unvaccinated people but more under 40s vaccinated. Explain to me, other than making you feel superior, exactly what that achieves?
Yes, I've long been a proponent of vaxports, but evidence of their success is quite limited. They arguably work if imposed early. Like Israel
They are pretty much pointless in the UK at this stage, with Omicron
Looks like just over a million jabs a day is probably going to be max.
They won't make target / aspiration, but will get a hell of a lot done.
It was a stupid target
The purpose of a target is to push yourself towards it.
If things had been left to the NHS we would still be down at 200k per day.
It is the Tories' fault we're in the booster hole, they spent all Summer doing sod all
Given what we now know about boosters, if we had boostered oldies in the summer, we would be doing them again now.
Should we have done kids during the summer holidays. Yes. But JCVI recommendations said no.
Should we have done oldies slightly earlier and faster, and a wider group of oldies. Yes. But JCVI rules recommendations said no.
You partisanship some times is way OTT.
Why am only I attacked for partisanship even when I'm making a fairly reasonable point? I don't see you attacking Tories
In this specific instance it isn't reasonable to expect a government to overturn the decision of an independent medical advisory committee. No sensible politician would, otherwise you get into Trump territory of advising bleach and giving anti-vaxxer massive amounts of ammunition.
I have spent the past 2 years consistently pointing out the dumb shit the government have done time and time again. Go and check my 60k posts, there are absolutely loads of posts saying, FFS Boris has bottled a lockdown, he is leaving it too late. I was also massively critical of the idea of the tier system. I said we should have had border restrictions straight away during March 2020....I advocated for the sort of scheme Australia have employed....I said the government needed to kick SAGE up the arse in the summer and have them actually making a plan, when in fact they didn't meet for 2 months...
I could go on and on and on.
Agreed. The truth is, we don't know how bad Omicron will be. With vaccines the landing point for hospitalisations and serious illness is likely to be between somewhat better than Delta without vaccines and somewhat worse. That's what serious and informed people investigating this are coming up with, not all of whom can be dismissed because they don't accord with our prejudices.
If we collectively think we are not prepared to do another lockdown and will take whatever Omicron throws at us, that's a valid decision to make. But let's not say, we're not doing another lockdown, and then do it anyway as the hospital system buckles under the strain.
But the totally INFURIATING thing is that UKG has made virtually no attempt to punish, tax or chide the antivaxxers into getting the jab. They are the reason we are back in the shit. Look at @foxy's post today - every Covid victim in his ICU is unvaxxed
WHY is the government so totally spineless on this issue? Fear of being seen as racist? Fear of the "libertarian lobby"?
Before they make my life miserable, and condemn my kids to more damaged mental health, perhaps the fucking government could tackle the people who are causing all this shit, rather than jailing absolutely everyone
This is the smartest thing you've said on COVID recently. Governments sooner or later are going to have to be a lot tougher on the anti-vaxxers. One obvious thing to do is to deprioritize anti-vaxxers for NHS treatment.
I agree, but not your last sentence. That would be a slippery slope imo. (Next exclude, addicts, then those who caused their own injuries,... Where do you stop?)
Denying unvaxed Covid suffers medical care is just not going to happen. It's an utterly pointless suggestion.
Being in ICU is punishment.
Anyone who thinks otherwise has never seen the inside of an ICU. People who go in there have a very, very high risk of coming out dead and the survivors often have flashbacks and PTSD
ICU is no featherbedded picnic. It is the last-chance saloon for the nearly dead.
(((Dan Hodges))) @DPJHodges · 1h Understand people's Omicron concerns. But we were told vaccines would remove the need for lockdowns. If that's no longer the case, OK. But we need to have a serious debate. Because I just don't see how a cycle of perpetually locking, then unlocking, society is sustainable.
Eventually COVID is going to become less lethal as variants develop that don't kill people as much but still spread quickly, meaning it gives immunity from the more lethal kinds. In addition vaccines will get better like they have for the flu. As we transition to that we will still have lockdowns but they will be fewer, shorter and further between.
Eventually we will have none at all, but this process is going to take years. But part of the problem is that 21st Century Westerners are pampered in more luxury, entertainment and general pleasure seeking than anyone else in human history. They are too soft mentally to get through this.
Didn’t we have this line of argument last year, the old “it will become less lethal so we can all get back to normal etc etc” yet here we are having another major lockdown and everyone talking about how Omicrom could be as lethal as previous variants. I’m sure next year - when we have another variant - this same old trope will be rolled out again to justify another lockdown.
More accurate to say "yet here we are with everyone speculating we're going to have another major lockdown."
And reading things wrong imo. Because we're not.
You're either delusionally optimistic, or you have such a strict definition of lockdown it doesn't include "shutting all indoor hospitality, imposing the rule of 6, everyone work from home"
Which is it? I would genuinely like to know, because from my perspective we are certainly going to get a Plan C, very soon, and it's beginning to look a lot like Lockdown
This is why the Tory party was so against plan b, it sets us on the path to more and more restrictions. If the mindset is "this will make a difference" and it doesn't then you need the next thing that will "make a difference" and so on until, like the Netherlands, you've got to a full lockdown because the government doesn't have the stones to say it doesn't care if the unvaccinated by choice kick the bucket at home.
But it won't just be the unvaccinated. If the NHS is overwhelmed, cancer treatments are delayed, A&E incidents take days to get to, more people die.
Yep. The phrase "cure worse than the disease" has great currency amongst anti-lockdowners but it's a cover for sloppy thinking. They are forever blaming lockdown for what the VIRUS is doing.
Denmark has also slowed, in the last couple of days
Is this the first glimmer of hope? Is it going to do here what it did in Gauteng? Just fall back inexplicably?
We all hope for fall back. And with steep spikes like this it always falls back. But no single day makes a trend, and there have been plenty of times where there's a day or two of drops, people think "its over" and then up it goes again.
(((Dan Hodges))) @DPJHodges · 1h Understand people's Omicron concerns. But we were told vaccines would remove the need for lockdowns. If that's no longer the case, OK. But we need to have a serious debate. Because I just don't see how a cycle of perpetually locking, then unlocking, society is sustainable.
Eventually COVID is going to become less lethal as variants develop that don't kill people as much but still spread quickly, meaning it gives immunity from the more lethal kinds. In addition vaccines will get better like they have for the flu. As we transition to that we will still have lockdowns but they will be fewer, shorter and further between.
Eventually we will have none at all, but this process is going to take years. But part of the problem is that 21st Century Westerners are pampered in more luxury, entertainment and general pleasure seeking than anyone else in human history. They are too soft mentally to get through this.
Didn’t we have this line of argument last year, the old “it will become less lethal so we can all get back to normal etc etc” yet here we are having another major lockdown and everyone talking about how Omicrom could be as lethal as previous variants. I’m sure next year - when we have another variant - this same old trope will be rolled out again to justify another lockdown.
More accurate to say "yet here we are with everyone speculating we're going to have another major lockdown."
And reading things wrong imo. Because we're not.
You're either delusionally optimistic, or you have such a strict definition of lockdown it doesn't include "shutting all indoor hospitality, imposing the rule of 6, everyone work from home"
Which is it? I would genuinely like to know, because from my perspective we are certainly going to get a Plan C, very soon, and it's beginning to look a lot like Lockdown
This is why the Tory party was so against plan b, it sets us on the path to more and more restrictions. If the mindset is "this will make a difference" and it doesn't then you need the next thing that will "make a difference" and so on until, like the Netherlands, you've got to a full lockdown because the government doesn't have the stones to say it doesn't care if the unvaccinated by choice kick the bucket at home.
The worst thing about the incoming 2 week lockdown will be the ninth week.
That would be a very funny comment, if it wasn't true...
Looks like just over a million jabs a day is probably going to be max.
They won't make target / aspiration, but will get a hell of a lot done.
It was a stupid target
The purpose of a target is to push yourself towards it.
If things had been left to the NHS we would still be down at 200k per day.
It is the Tories' fault we're in the booster hole, they spent all Summer doing sod all
Given what we now know about boosters, if we had boostered oldies in the summer, we would be doing them again now.
Should we have done kids during the summer holidays. Yes. But JCVI recommendations said no.
Should we have done oldies slightly earlier and faster, and a wider group of oldies. Yes. But JCVI rules recommendations said no.
You partisanship some times is way OTT.
Why am only I attacked for partisanship even when I'm making a fairly reasonable point? I don't see you attacking Tories
In this specific instance it isn't reasonable to expect a government to overturn the decision of an independent medical advisory committee. No sensible politician would, otherwise you get into Trump territory of advising bleach and giving anti-vaxxer massive amounts of ammunition.
I have spent the past 2 years consistently pointing out the dumb shit the government have done time and time again. Go and check my 60k posts, there are absolutely loads of posts saying, FFS Boris has bottled a lockdown, he is leaving it too late. I was also massively critical of the idea of the tier system. I said we should have had border restrictions straight away during March 2020....I advocated for the sort of scheme Australia have employed....I said the government needed to kick SAGE up the arse in the summer and have them actually making a plan, when in fact they didn't meet for 2 months...
I could go on and on and on.
Agreed. The truth is, we don't know how bad Omicron will be. With vaccines the landing point for hospitalisations and serious illness is likely to be between somewhat better than Delta without vaccines and somewhat worse. That's what serious and informed people investigating this are coming up with, not all of whom can be dismissed because they don't accord with our prejudices.
If we collectively think we are not prepared to do another lockdown and will take whatever Omicron throws at us, that's a valid decision to make. But let's not say, we're not doing another lockdown, and then do it anyway as the hospital system buckles under the strain.
But the totally INFURIATING thing is that UKG has made virtually no attempt to punish, tax or chide the antivaxxers into getting the jab. They are the reason we are back in the shit. Look at @foxy's post today - every Covid victim in his ICU is unvaxxed
WHY is the government so totally spineless on this issue? Fear of being seen as racist? Fear of the "libertarian lobby"?
Before they make my life miserable, and condemn my kids to more damaged mental health, perhaps the fucking government could tackle the people who are causing all this shit, rather than jailing absolutely everyone
This is the smartest thing you've said on COVID recently. Governments sooner or later are going to have to be a lot tougher on the anti-vaxxers. One obvious thing to do is to deprioritize anti-vaxxers for NHS treatment.
I agree, but not your last sentence. That would be a slippery slope imo. (Next exclude, addicts, then those who caused their own injuries,... Where do you stop?)
Denying unvaxed Covid suffers medical care is just not going to happen. It's an utterly pointless suggestion.
Being in ICU is punishment.
Anyone who thinks otherwise has never seen the inside of an ICU. People who go in there have a very, very high risk of coming out dead and the survivors often have flashbacks and PTSD
ICU is no featherbedded picnic. It is the last-chance saloon for the nearly dead.
The issue is, while they're in there because of their stupidity and selfishness some totally innocent person who was involved in a car accident can't have that ICU bed which gives them their one chance of survival.
It will be interesting to keep an eye on testing numbers, are people going to be irresponsible and not test themselves so they can get on with their Christmas plans? Hopefully not.
(((Dan Hodges))) @DPJHodges · 1h Understand people's Omicron concerns. But we were told vaccines would remove the need for lockdowns. If that's no longer the case, OK. But we need to have a serious debate. Because I just don't see how a cycle of perpetually locking, then unlocking, society is sustainable.
Eventually COVID is going to become less lethal as variants develop that don't kill people as much but still spread quickly, meaning it gives immunity from the more lethal kinds. In addition vaccines will get better like they have for the flu. As we transition to that we will still have lockdowns but they will be fewer, shorter and further between.
Eventually we will have none at all, but this process is going to take years. But part of the problem is that 21st Century Westerners are pampered in more luxury, entertainment and general pleasure seeking than anyone else in human history. They are too soft mentally to get through this.
Didn’t we have this line of argument last year, the old “it will become less lethal so we can all get back to normal etc etc” yet here we are having another major lockdown and everyone talking about how Omicrom could be as lethal as previous variants. I’m sure next year - when we have another variant - this same old trope will be rolled out again to justify another lockdown.
More accurate to say "yet here we are with everyone speculating we're going to have another major lockdown."
And reading things wrong imo. Because we're not.
We are not what? Having another lockdown? Because we are having a lockdown, officially or unofficially. The streets are dead and no one is going out.
In any event, you are missing the bigger point. We were promised that there would be an end to the endless round of restrictions, and one of the main arguments was that “the virus will get weaker”. We are now nearly two years in and, as has been posted, the Netherlands for example are going on a full lockdown and British travellers are effectively banned from visiting France.
Yes, it's a hell of a pandemic and it has a way to run yet, esp globally. I'd make it go away if I could.
(((Dan Hodges))) @DPJHodges · 1h Understand people's Omicron concerns. But we were told vaccines would remove the need for lockdowns. If that's no longer the case, OK. But we need to have a serious debate. Because I just don't see how a cycle of perpetually locking, then unlocking, society is sustainable.
Eventually COVID is going to become less lethal as variants develop that don't kill people as much but still spread quickly, meaning it gives immunity from the more lethal kinds. In addition vaccines will get better like they have for the flu. As we transition to that we will still have lockdowns but they will be fewer, shorter and further between.
Eventually we will have none at all, but this process is going to take years. But part of the problem is that 21st Century Westerners are pampered in more luxury, entertainment and general pleasure seeking than anyone else in human history. They are too soft mentally to get through this.
Didn’t we have this line of argument last year, the old “it will become less lethal so we can all get back to normal etc etc” yet here we are having another major lockdown and everyone talking about how Omicrom could be as lethal as previous variants. I’m sure next year - when we have another variant - this same old trope will be rolled out again to justify another lockdown.
More accurate to say "yet here we are with everyone speculating we're going to have another major lockdown."
And reading things wrong imo. Because we're not.
You're either delusionally optimistic, or you have such a strict definition of lockdown it doesn't include "shutting all indoor hospitality, imposing the rule of 6, everyone work from home"
Which is it? I would genuinely like to know, because from my perspective we are certainly going to get a Plan C, very soon, and it's beginning to look a lot like Lockdown
This is why the Tory party was so against plan b, it sets us on the path to more and more restrictions. If the mindset is "this will make a difference" and it doesn't then you need the next thing that will "make a difference" and so on until, like the Netherlands, you've got to a full lockdown because the government doesn't have the stones to say it doesn't care if the unvaccinated by choice kick the bucket at home.
The worst thing about the incoming 2 week lockdown will be the ninth week.
That would be a very funny comment, if it wasn't true...
Opposite - it isn't true but it IS quite witty.
If the government go for a circuit breaker, it will end up longer than 2 weeks.
(((Dan Hodges))) @DPJHodges · 1h Understand people's Omicron concerns. But we were told vaccines would remove the need for lockdowns. If that's no longer the case, OK. But we need to have a serious debate. Because I just don't see how a cycle of perpetually locking, then unlocking, society is sustainable.
Eventually COVID is going to become less lethal as variants develop that don't kill people as much but still spread quickly, meaning it gives immunity from the more lethal kinds. In addition vaccines will get better like they have for the flu. As we transition to that we will still have lockdowns but they will be fewer, shorter and further between.
Eventually we will have none at all, but this process is going to take years. But part of the problem is that 21st Century Westerners are pampered in more luxury, entertainment and general pleasure seeking than anyone else in human history. They are too soft mentally to get through this.
Didn’t we have this line of argument last year, the old “it will become less lethal so we can all get back to normal etc etc” yet here we are having another major lockdown and everyone talking about how Omicrom could be as lethal as previous variants. I’m sure next year - when we have another variant - this same old trope will be rolled out again to justify another lockdown.
More accurate to say "yet here we are with everyone speculating we're going to have another major lockdown."
And reading things wrong imo. Because we're not.
You're either delusionally optimistic, or you have such a strict definition of lockdown it doesn't include "shutting all indoor hospitality, imposing the rule of 6, everyone work from home"
Which is it? I would genuinely like to know, because from my perspective we are certainly going to get a Plan C, very soon, and it's beginning to look a lot like Lockdown
This is why the Tory party was so against plan b, it sets us on the path to more and more restrictions. If the mindset is "this will make a difference" and it doesn't then you need the next thing that will "make a difference" and so on until, like the Netherlands, you've got to a full lockdown because the government doesn't have the stones to say it doesn't care if the unvaccinated by choice kick the bucket at home.
The worst thing about the incoming 2 week lockdown will be the ninth week.
That would be a very funny comment, if it wasn't true...
Opposite - it isn't true but it IS quite witty.
No it is funny because it is true. All too fucking true
I'm going to guess that next week we'll get quite a few people not registering LFT positives to avoid being locked down for Xmas. In fact I think we saw that yesterday, LFT positives are down to just 13k, which is way under expectations. I wonder how reliable the next couple of weeks of stats will actually be.
Looks like just over a million jabs a day is probably going to be max.
They won't make target / aspiration, but will get a hell of a lot done.
It was a stupid target
The purpose of a target is to push yourself towards it.
If things had been left to the NHS we would still be down at 200k per day.
It is the Tories' fault we're in the booster hole, they spent all Summer doing sod all
Given what we now know about boosters, if we had boostered oldies in the summer, we would be doing them again now.
Should we have done kids during the summer holidays. Yes. But JCVI recommendations said no.
Should we have done oldies slightly earlier and faster, and a wider group of oldies. Yes. But JCVI rules recommendations said no.
You partisanship some times is way OTT.
Why am only I attacked for partisanship even when I'm making a fairly reasonable point? I don't see you attacking Tories
In this specific instance it isn't reasonable to expect a government to overturn the decision of an independent medical advisory committee. No sensible politician would, otherwise you get into Trump territory of advising bleach and giving anti-vaxxer massive amounts of ammunition.
I have spent the past 2 years consistently pointing out the dumb shit the government have done time and time again. Go and check my 60k posts, there are absolutely loads of posts saying, FFS Boris has bottled a lockdown, he is leaving it too late. I was also massively critical of the idea of the tier system. I said we should have had border restrictions straight away during March 2020....I advocated for the sort of scheme Australia have employed....I said the government needed to kick SAGE up the arse in the summer and have them actually making a plan, when in fact they didn't meet for 2 months...
I could go on and on and on.
Agreed. The truth is, we don't know how bad Omicron will be. With vaccines the landing point for hospitalisations and serious illness is likely to be between somewhat better than Delta without vaccines and somewhat worse. That's what serious and informed people investigating this are coming up with, not all of whom can be dismissed because they don't accord with our prejudices.
If we collectively think we are not prepared to do another lockdown and will take whatever Omicron throws at us, that's a valid decision to make. But let's not say, we're not doing another lockdown, and then do it anyway as the hospital system buckles under the strain.
But the totally INFURIATING thing is that UKG has made virtually no attempt to punish, tax or chide the antivaxxers into getting the jab. They are the reason we are back in the shit. Look at @foxy's post today - every Covid victim in his ICU is unvaxxed
WHY is the government so totally spineless on this issue? Fear of being seen as racist? Fear of the "libertarian lobby"?
Before they make my life miserable, and condemn my kids to more damaged mental health, perhaps the fucking government could tackle the people who are causing all this shit, rather than jailing absolutely everyone
I like the idea of a COVID NHS tax at 1% per year to help the NHS pay for COVID care which is refunded to people when they reach fully vaccinated status. That would get loads of people in the door as getting the vaccine is being linked to helping the NHS, lots of people still haven't made that connection.
That's got more going for it than most of the ideas I've heard to slap the unvaxed.
Strange to be on a crowded train with no worry about catching COVID nor inadvertently passing it on.
Not to be a negative nelly.....if you had Delta, you aren't immune from Omicron.
Best protection seems to be three doses of vaccine plus infection, closely followed by two doses plus infection. That and the recent infection means @dixiedean is chock full of neutralising antibodies. He’ll be fine.
Let's hope this doesn't give today's Cabinet any ideas.
Like I said, most of this is irrelevant if schools are open.
They could take the other message, of course. If we're keeping schools open, why bother with anything else?
The answer, unfortunately, will be the Jim Hacker one - they want to look as if they're doing something. Unfortunately with this lot they usually end up looking as if they're trying to look as if they're trying to do something.
Where do you stand on remote lesrning? Is there more to come in making it smarter, and fairer across education as a whole, so there’s less of a drop off it it comes to closures? In first lock down, for some children it was via parents mobile phone. My concern is it just shows ’apartheid of the pocket’ across education system.
Do you see my point? Has last two years highlighted lessons learned and actions to be taken in terms of who has Laptops to aid education and who doesn’t?
Actually I backed 4 horses today, two had bad hair days, not in best of form, off the pace from early on and pulled up never really in it… just like the Tories in Shropshire North! 😆
You are not obliged to answer my question there Ydoethur, but I think I am asking the right person close to education, have you seen equality in opportunity when it comes to IT for remote learning - if not, what will it take to get there?
A hard lockdown will apply in the Netherlands from 5 a.m. tomorrow morning. Sources in The Hague confirm that the cabinet is adopting the advice of the Outbreak Management Team to close as many sectors as possible. In any case, the new measures will remain in force until January 14.
It was already clear that the OMT and the cabinet are very concerned about the rapid spread of the omikron variant of the coronavirus.
The experts advise closing almost everything: only essential shops such as supermarkets and pharmacies should remain open, sources in The Hague confirmed yesterday. The cabinet held emergency consultations this afternoon and has reportedly adopted the advice for the hard lockdown.
This means that the catering industry, non-essential shops and the sports and culture sector will have to close again. Pickup at shops and catering would remain possible. As far as the experts are concerned, all secondary schools and other educational institutions must also close. Primary schools have already closed early for the Christmas holidays.
'Four people at Christmas' The group size outside is reduced to a maximum of 2 people. A maximum of 2 visitors should also be allowed inside. Reportedly there will be an exception for Christmas: then 4 visitors are welcome. This exception would not apply to New Year's Eve.
The new measures will be explained in a press conference at 7 pm.
"Ambiguous grid by Kokichi Sugihara of Meiji University in Japan. A mathematically calculated combination of perspective and the physics of reflection produce this striking illusion that works in many configurations https://buff.ly/2KlbiKD [more: https://buff.ly/2HDW9GM]"
Looks like just over a million jabs a day is probably going to be max.
They won't make target / aspiration, but will get a hell of a lot done.
It was a stupid target
The purpose of a target is to push yourself towards it.
If things had been left to the NHS we would still be down at 200k per day.
It is the Tories' fault we're in the booster hole, they spent all Summer doing sod all
Given what we now know about boosters, if we had boostered oldies in the summer, we would be doing them again now.
Should we have done kids during the summer holidays. Yes. But JCVI recommendations said no.
Should we have done oldies slightly earlier and faster, and a wider group of oldies. Yes. But JCVI rules recommendations said no.
You partisanship some times is way OTT.
Why am only I attacked for partisanship even when I'm making a fairly reasonable point? I don't see you attacking Tories
In this specific instance it isn't reasonable to expect a government to overturn the decision of an independent medical advisory committee. No sensible politician would, otherwise you get into Trump territory of advising bleach and giving anti-vaxxer massive amounts of ammunition.
I have spent the past 2 years consistently pointing out the dumb shit the government have done time and time again. Go and check my 60k posts, there are absolutely loads of posts saying, FFS Boris has bottled a lockdown, he is leaving it too late. I was also massively critical of the idea of the tier system. I said we should have had border restrictions straight away during March 2020....I advocated for the sort of scheme Australia have employed....I said the government needed to kick SAGE up the arse in the summer and have them actually making a plan, when in fact they didn't meet for 2 months...
I could go on and on and on.
Agreed. The truth is, we don't know how bad Omicron will be. With vaccines the landing point for hospitalisations and serious illness is likely to be between somewhat better than Delta without vaccines and somewhat worse. That's what serious and informed people investigating this are coming up with, not all of whom can be dismissed because they don't accord with our prejudices.
If we collectively think we are not prepared to do another lockdown and will take whatever Omicron throws at us, that's a valid decision to make. But let's not say, we're not doing another lockdown, and then do it anyway as the hospital system buckles under the strain.
But the totally INFURIATING thing is that UKG has made virtually no attempt to punish, tax or chide the antivaxxers into getting the jab. They are the reason we are back in the shit. Look at @foxy's post today - every Covid victim in his ICU is unvaxxed
WHY is the government so totally spineless on this issue? Fear of being seen as racist? Fear of the "libertarian lobby"?
Before they make my life miserable, and condemn my kids to more damaged mental health, perhaps the fucking government could tackle the people who are causing all this shit, rather than jailing absolutely everyone
I like the idea of a COVID NHS tax at 1% per year to help the NHS pay for COVID care which is refunded to people when they reach fully vaccinated status. That would get loads of people in the door as getting the vaccine is being linked to helping the NHS, lots of people still haven't made that connection.
That's got more going for it than most of the ideas I've heard to slap the unvaxed.
Thank @Philip_Thompson, it's his idea! I'd stick it something like 2.5% on all income, earned or unearned for all ages with no thresholds. Make it punitive and the refund amount gets bigger all the time so the incentive to get vaxxed gets bigger too.
A hard lockdown will apply in the Netherlands from 5 a.m. tomorrow morning. Sources in The Hague confirm that the cabinet is adopting the advice of the Outbreak Management Team to close as many sectors as possible. In any case, the new measures will remain in force until January 14.
It was already clear that the OMT and the cabinet are very concerned about the rapid spread of the omikron variant of the coronavirus.
The experts advise closing almost everything: only essential shops such as supermarkets and pharmacies should remain open, sources in The Hague confirmed yesterday. The cabinet held emergency consultations this afternoon and has reportedly adopted the advice for the hard lockdown.
This means that the catering industry, non-essential shops and the sports and culture sector will have to close again. Pickup at shops and catering would remain possible. As far as the experts are concerned, all secondary schools and other educational institutions must also close. Primary schools have already closed early for the Christmas holidays.
'Four people at Christmas' The group size outside is reduced to a maximum of 2 people. A maximum of 2 visitors should also be allowed inside. Reportedly there will be an exception for Christmas: then 4 visitors are welcome. This exception would not apply to New Year's Eve.
The new measures will be explained in a press conference at 7 pm.
That's the hard lockdown the UK had in January-March? Except that at one stage we didn't allow booze takeaways, IIRC; otherwise identical
God, it was brutal. Queuing in the freezing cold for supermarkets. One by one
Did people in London really have to queue to go to the supermarket ?
Or are you embellishing for dramatic effect ?
I can remember quite well having to queue for the supermarket during the first lockdown. I'm not quite sure how many occasions were due to capacity limits alone, and how much of it was down to the initial "panic buying" period, but it definitely happened round my way. I assume that London was similarly afflicted.
I'm going to guess that next week we'll get quite a few people not registering LFT positives to avoid being locked down for Xmas. In fact I think we saw that yesterday, LFT positives are down to just 13k, which is way under expectations. I wonder how reliable the next couple of weeks of stats will actually be.
Do we know how many LFTs are taken each day ?
Not the official numbers because so many negative (and some positive) are not registered.
Much truth in this. Two comments. Matthew Goodwin is a little more thoughtful than described here.
The big thing he misses is competence. With Post-Brexit + pandemic to sort the government has to exude competence. Stuff is bound to happen, but the number of unnecessary errors points to a significant intellectual and moral gap.
On Brexit, this is a special case. Given the politics of the UK as of 2000-now and continuing, no satisfactory EU/UK settlement is likely. getting out of a 40 year alliance will always take years. Parliament, with a Remain majority failed to agree a sensible compromise timetable (eg Norway for Now) leaving no choice between a fairly hard Brexit and rejoin. Neither can work.
It may mean the Tories are replaced by another lot next time, but the problem of there being no acceptable solution (including status quo and status quo ante) will remain.
If the Lab/rainbow alliance can exude competence and moderation they will win.
I think that if Labour offered the EU a customs union (thereby eliminating most of the Northern Ireland issues) and general sensible cooperation on issues of joint concern there would be a warm response from the EU, and only a smallish minority of British voters would be really upset.
That’s been the obvious compromise and common sense approach since Mrs May took office, and her term would have gone very differently had she spent her honeymoon capital on telling her nutters some home truths and steering the country in that direction. Sooner or later we’ll get a government that recognises that Norway or Switzerland offer more realistic examples than Singapore.
A sad thing / true thing is Labour can offer whatever on the EU bar Free Movement. Ditto Mrs May back then for that matter. There were tons of reasons for the Leave vote but FM was the biggest. May would have been toast if she'd tried to retain it in any Brexit deal and Labour must steer clear of it to have a chance in GE24. Seems little doubt that SKS realizes this.
The polling on Brexit shows the most important things were (1) wanting laws to be made in the UK and (2) immigration. In that order. Starmer will lose any gains if he does either or looks like he is going to do either.
But (2) is far more clearcut. Free Movement is totemic and not open to fudge. (1) is in the eye of the beholder to a great extent.
Perhaps but people will make their minds up pretty quickly if the Tories run a campaign on "Starmer, the man that tried to overturn Brexit, is now going to hand back power over British laws to the EU" and the BBC fact checking is going to have to say this is true.
You are assuming that everyone is against it. There are a lot of people who would like to have it back and the last vote was very nearly 50:50 and demographically a lot of younger voters might be motivated to vote to get it back and, as Leave voters tended to be older, a number of them will not be voting any more.
Personally, I would vote to put FoM back in place so that that those growing up have more options than being locked up in Boris's Britain and businesses have an opportunity to open up all the markets that were taken away from them.
The "all Boris and the Tories need to do is scapegoat this group/ individual or that group/ individual" merchants haven't been paying attention to the economy. If the Conservatives will be "done for" that is what will " do them", and any amount of "it's the EU/Remainers/liberals/the left/Starmer/Davey are going to turn our once great nation into an asylum seekers/Rotherham taxi drivers' paradise" won't get a hearing.
(((Dan Hodges))) @DPJHodges · 1h Understand people's Omicron concerns. But we were told vaccines would remove the need for lockdowns. If that's no longer the case, OK. But we need to have a serious debate. Because I just don't see how a cycle of perpetually locking, then unlocking, society is sustainable.
Eventually COVID is going to become less lethal as variants develop that don't kill people as much but still spread quickly, meaning it gives immunity from the more lethal kinds. In addition vaccines will get better like they have for the flu. As we transition to that we will still have lockdowns but they will be fewer, shorter and further between.
Eventually we will have none at all, but this process is going to take years. But part of the problem is that 21st Century Westerners are pampered in more luxury, entertainment and general pleasure seeking than anyone else in human history. They are too soft mentally to get through this.
Didn’t we have this line of argument last year, the old “it will become less lethal so we can all get back to normal etc etc” yet here we are having another major lockdown and everyone talking about how Omicrom could be as lethal as previous variants. I’m sure next year - when we have another variant - this same old trope will be rolled out again to justify another lockdown.
More accurate to say "yet here we are with everyone speculating we're going to have another major lockdown."
And reading things wrong imo. Because we're not.
You're either delusionally optimistic, or you have such a strict definition of lockdown it doesn't include "shutting all indoor hospitality, imposing the rule of 6, everyone work from home"
Which is it? I would genuinely like to know, because from my perspective we are certainly going to get a Plan C, very soon, and it's beginning to look a lot like Lockdown
This is why the Tory party was so against plan b, it sets us on the path to more and more restrictions. If the mindset is "this will make a difference" and it doesn't then you need the next thing that will "make a difference" and so on until, like the Netherlands, you've got to a full lockdown because the government doesn't have the stones to say it doesn't care if the unvaccinated by choice kick the bucket at home.
The worst thing about the incoming 2 week lockdown will be the ninth week.
Why would they present a 9 week lockdown as only being for 2 weeks?
Isn't that how they always do it? The Dutch said their indoor curfew would only last two weeks. Here they are entering a new "four week" full lockdown 6 weeks later.
A hard lockdown will apply in the Netherlands from 5 a.m. tomorrow morning. Sources in The Hague confirm that the cabinet is adopting the advice of the Outbreak Management Team to close as many sectors as possible. In any case, the new measures will remain in force until January 14.
It was already clear that the OMT and the cabinet are very concerned about the rapid spread of the omikron variant of the coronavirus.
The experts advise closing almost everything: only essential shops such as supermarkets and pharmacies should remain open, sources in The Hague confirmed yesterday. The cabinet held emergency consultations this afternoon and has reportedly adopted the advice for the hard lockdown.
This means that the catering industry, non-essential shops and the sports and culture sector will have to close again. Pickup at shops and catering would remain possible. As far as the experts are concerned, all secondary schools and other educational institutions must also close. Primary schools have already closed early for the Christmas holidays.
'Four people at Christmas' The group size outside is reduced to a maximum of 2 people. A maximum of 2 visitors should also be allowed inside. Reportedly there will be an exception for Christmas: then 4 visitors are welcome. This exception would not apply to New Year's Eve.
The new measures will be explained in a press conference at 7 pm.
Strange to be on a crowded train with no worry about catching COVID nor inadvertently passing it on.
Not to be a negative nelly.....if you had Delta, you aren't immune from Omicron.
Best protection seems to be three doses of vaccine plus infection, closely followed by two doses plus infection. That and the recent infection means @dixiedean is chock full of neutralising antibodies. He’ll be fine.
Strange to be on a crowded train with no worry about catching COVID nor inadvertently passing it on.
Not to be a negative nelly.....if you had Delta, you aren't immune from Omicron.
Oh for goodness sake. I am a great fan of information. But not that, now.
BUT....with vaccination and so soon after prior infection, chances now are absolutely negligible and infinitesimal chance you will be effected in any way.
Just saying plenty of people in SA had Delta, some had Alpha, Beta and Delta, and still got Omicron. Hence the its mild narrative.
A hard lockdown will apply in the Netherlands from 5 a.m. tomorrow morning. Sources in The Hague confirm that the cabinet is adopting the advice of the Outbreak Management Team to close as many sectors as possible. In any case, the new measures will remain in force until January 14.
It was already clear that the OMT and the cabinet are very concerned about the rapid spread of the omikron variant of the coronavirus.
The experts advise closing almost everything: only essential shops such as supermarkets and pharmacies should remain open, sources in The Hague confirmed yesterday. The cabinet held emergency consultations this afternoon and has reportedly adopted the advice for the hard lockdown.
This means that the catering industry, non-essential shops and the sports and culture sector will have to close again. Pickup at shops and catering would remain possible. As far as the experts are concerned, all secondary schools and other educational institutions must also close. Primary schools have already closed early for the Christmas holidays.
'Four people at Christmas' The group size outside is reduced to a maximum of 2 people. A maximum of 2 visitors should also be allowed inside. Reportedly there will be an exception for Christmas: then 4 visitors are welcome. This exception would not apply to New Year's Eve.
The new measures will be explained in a press conference at 7 pm.
Denmark has also slowed, in the last couple of days
Is this the first glimmer of hope? Is it going to do here what it did in Gauteng? Just fall back inexplicably?
Probably not - but London has seen a drop in cases which could reflect modified behaviour - that's our canary in the coal mine.
Guanteng cases are now barely more than half the peak. They've fallen that far in a week.
And bear in mind that Omicron cases were basically zero there just 30 days ago.
Now, that could be that it's all modified behaviour (but if it is modified behaviour, that tells you that lockdowns do work against Omicron, but that's another story). But I suspect it is mostly because it simply burns through the vulnerable very quickly.
Hospitalisations remain ok. If Guanteng was going to have a massive problem, then - unless there is an unusually long incubation period for Omicron - it's going to be seen in the next seven days.
I'm struggling to see why we would expect the UK to be much worse hit than South Africa. Sure, we're older, and we have less immunity conferred by infection. But we're older because we're healthier - South African life expectancy is in the mid-60s. And it's not like the UK doesn't have plenty of infection conferred immunity. Heck, it's got no shortage of people who've been treble jabbed and infected. It also doesn't have a major HIV/AIDS problem, a creaky health service, and both malnutrition and obesity issues.
If London hospitalizations don't start to really move in the next week, then I think we can probably all breath a big sigh of relief. Based on actual real world evidence of hundreds of thousands of South Africans, Omicron does not seem to hospitalize or kill at the same rates as previous variants.
(((Dan Hodges))) @DPJHodges · 1h Understand people's Omicron concerns. But we were told vaccines would remove the need for lockdowns. If that's no longer the case, OK. But we need to have a serious debate. Because I just don't see how a cycle of perpetually locking, then unlocking, society is sustainable.
Eventually COVID is going to become less lethal as variants develop that don't kill people as much but still spread quickly, meaning it gives immunity from the more lethal kinds. In addition vaccines will get better like they have for the flu. As we transition to that we will still have lockdowns but they will be fewer, shorter and further between.
Eventually we will have none at all, but this process is going to take years. But part of the problem is that 21st Century Westerners are pampered in more luxury, entertainment and general pleasure seeking than anyone else in human history. They are too soft mentally to get through this.
Didn’t we have this line of argument last year, the old “it will become less lethal so we can all get back to normal etc etc” yet here we are having another major lockdown and everyone talking about how Omicrom could be as lethal as previous variants. I’m sure next year - when we have another variant - this same old trope will be rolled out again to justify another lockdown.
More accurate to say "yet here we are with everyone speculating we're going to have another major lockdown."
And reading things wrong imo. Because we're not.
You're either delusionally optimistic, or you have such a strict definition of lockdown it doesn't include "shutting all indoor hospitality, imposing the rule of 6, everyone work from home"
Which is it? I would genuinely like to know, because from my perspective we are certainly going to get a Plan C, very soon, and it's beginning to look a lot like Lockdown
This is why the Tory party was so against plan b, it sets us on the path to more and more restrictions. If the mindset is "this will make a difference" and it doesn't then you need the next thing that will "make a difference" and so on until, like the Netherlands, you've got to a full lockdown because the government doesn't have the stones to say it doesn't care if the unvaccinated by choice kick the bucket at home.
The worst thing about the incoming 2 week lockdown will be the ninth week.
Why would they present a 9 week lockdown as only being for 2 weeks?
These things have a habit of snowballing.
Besides, it's not only the period of harsh measures that's the problem, it's the months and months of slow crawl out of them as well.
Strange to be on a crowded train with no worry about catching COVID nor inadvertently passing it on.
Not to be a negative nelly.....if you had Delta, you aren't immune from Omicron.
Oh for goodness sake. I am a great fan of information. But not that, now.
BUT....with vaccination and so soon after prior infection, chances now are absolutely negligible and infinitesimal chance you will be effected in any way.
Just saying plenty of people in SA had Delta, some had Alpha, Beta and Delta, and still got Omicron.
But crucially it doesn't seem to have prevented severe symptoms in very many of them who had immunity from prior infection.
Looks like just over a million jabs a day is probably going to be max.
They won't make target / aspiration, but will get a hell of a lot done.
It was a stupid target
The purpose of a target is to push yourself towards it.
If things had been left to the NHS we would still be down at 200k per day.
It is the Tories' fault we're in the booster hole, they spent all Summer doing sod all
Given what we now know about boosters, if we had boostered oldies in the summer, we would be doing them again now.
Should we have done kids during the summer holidays. Yes. But JCVI recommendations said no.
Should we have done oldies slightly earlier and faster, and a wider group of oldies. Yes. But JCVI rules recommendations said no.
You partisanship some times is way OTT.
Why am only I attacked for partisanship even when I'm making a fairly reasonable point? I don't see you attacking Tories
In this specific instance it isn't reasonable to expect a government to overturn the decision of an independent medical advisory committee. No sensible politician would, otherwise you get into Trump territory of advising bleach and giving anti-vaxxer massive amounts of ammunition.
I have spent the past 2 years consistently pointing out the dumb shit the government have done time and time again. Go and check my 60k posts, there are absolutely loads of posts saying, FFS Boris has bottled a lockdown, he is leaving it too late. I was also massively critical of the idea of the tier system. I said we should have had border restrictions straight away during March 2020....I advocated for the sort of scheme Australia have employed....I said the government needed to kick SAGE up the arse in the summer and have them actually making a plan, when in fact they didn't meet for 2 months...
I could go on and on and on.
Agreed. The truth is, we don't know how bad Omicron will be. With vaccines the landing point for hospitalisations and serious illness is likely to be between somewhat better than Delta without vaccines and somewhat worse. That's what serious and informed people investigating this are coming up with, not all of whom can be dismissed because they don't accord with our prejudices.
If we collectively think we are not prepared to do another lockdown and will take whatever Omicron throws at us, that's a valid decision to make. But let's not say, we're not doing another lockdown, and then do it anyway as the hospital system buckles under the strain.
But the totally INFURIATING thing is that UKG has made virtually no attempt to punish, tax or chide the antivaxxers into getting the jab. They are the reason we are back in the shit. Look at @foxy's post today - every Covid victim in his ICU is unvaxxed
WHY is the government so totally spineless on this issue? Fear of being seen as racist? Fear of the "libertarian lobby"?
Before they make my life miserable, and condemn my kids to more damaged mental health, perhaps the fucking government could tackle the people who are causing all this shit, rather than jailing absolutely everyone
I like the idea of a COVID NHS tax at 1% per year to help the NHS pay for COVID care which is refunded to people when they reach fully vaccinated status. That would get loads of people in the door as getting the vaccine is being linked to helping the NHS, lots of people still haven't made that connection.
I suspect quite a few of the unvaxxed aren't paying tax... including children of course.
The real answer is make it hard to go places / do things. Restrict the unvaccinated* as you would smokers, with a few exceptions (hospitals, schools, can't think on many others tbh).
It's going to happen eventually anyway, so why delay?
(*With an exemption cert for thos that can't be vaccinated of course.)
Because it won't help. The most likely unvaccinated person who might end up in hospital is going to be a 60-70 year old South Asian Muslim who doesn't drink, doesn't smoke and doesn't go to the pub, theatre, non-Halal restaurants, shops at the local Asian shop run by one of his mates who also doesn't smoke, doesn't drink, doesn't go to the pub, theatre or non-Halal restaurants.
Vaccine passports might get a few extra under 40s to get vaccinated, sure, but that's not going to change the healthcare situation. They will do precisely zero to get those over 60s who are unvaccinated into the funnel. The unvaccinated in these cohorts will not be inconvenienced by them because nowhere they go need them or will bother implementing them.
Vaccine passports are another one of those "let's look like we're doing something" measures. A tax at least raises some money.
Do you have some facts to support that frankly obnoxious "South Asian Muslim" assertion ?
I ask because the latest ICNARC report shows that 74% of patients admitted to ICU with Covid since May 2021 have been white. The ratios (rounded) are: White 74% Mixed 2% Asian 11% Black 8% Other 6%
So yes, asian and black people are over represented but not massivley so. And consider also the wealth/deprivation breakdown. ICU covid patients are 3 times more likely to be from the most deprived quitile than from the least deprived.
A hard lockdown will apply in the Netherlands from 5 a.m. tomorrow morning. Sources in The Hague confirm that the cabinet is adopting the advice of the Outbreak Management Team to close as many sectors as possible. In any case, the new measures will remain in force until January 14.
It was already clear that the OMT and the cabinet are very concerned about the rapid spread of the omikron variant of the coronavirus.
The experts advise closing almost everything: only essential shops such as supermarkets and pharmacies should remain open, sources in The Hague confirmed yesterday. The cabinet held emergency consultations this afternoon and has reportedly adopted the advice for the hard lockdown.
This means that the catering industry, non-essential shops and the sports and culture sector will have to close again. Pickup at shops and catering would remain possible. As far as the experts are concerned, all secondary schools and other educational institutions must also close. Primary schools have already closed early for the Christmas holidays.
'Four people at Christmas' The group size outside is reduced to a maximum of 2 people. A maximum of 2 visitors should also be allowed inside. Reportedly there will be an exception for Christmas: then 4 visitors are welcome. This exception would not apply to New Year's Eve.
The new measures will be explained in a press conference at 7 pm.
Looks like just over a million jabs a day is probably going to be max.
They won't make target / aspiration, but will get a hell of a lot done.
It was a stupid target
The purpose of a target is to push yourself towards it.
If things had been left to the NHS we would still be down at 200k per day.
It is the Tories' fault we're in the booster hole, they spent all Summer doing sod all
Given what we now know about boosters, if we had boostered oldies in the summer, we would be doing them again now.
Should we have done kids during the summer holidays. Yes. But JCVI recommendations said no.
Should we have done oldies slightly earlier and faster, and a wider group of oldies. Yes. But JCVI rules recommendations said no.
You partisanship some times is way OTT.
Why am only I attacked for partisanship even when I'm making a fairly reasonable point? I don't see you attacking Tories
In this specific instance it isn't reasonable to expect a government to overturn the decision of an independent medical advisory committee. No sensible politician would, otherwise you get into Trump territory of advising bleach and giving anti-vaxxer massive amounts of ammunition.
I have spent the past 2 years consistently pointing out the dumb shit the government have done time and time again. Go and check my 60k posts, there are absolutely loads of posts saying, FFS Boris has bottled a lockdown, he is leaving it too late. I was also massively critical of the idea of the tier system. I said we should have had border restrictions straight away during March 2020....I advocated for the sort of scheme Australia have employed....I said the government needed to kick SAGE up the arse in the summer and have them actually making a plan, when in fact they didn't meet for 2 months...
I could go on and on and on.
Agreed. The truth is, we don't know how bad Omicron will be. With vaccines the landing point for hospitalisations and serious illness is likely to be between somewhat better than Delta without vaccines and somewhat worse. That's what serious and informed people investigating this are coming up with, not all of whom can be dismissed because they don't accord with our prejudices.
If we collectively think we are not prepared to do another lockdown and will take whatever Omicron throws at us, that's a valid decision to make. But let's not say, we're not doing another lockdown, and then do it anyway as the hospital system buckles under the strain.
But the totally INFURIATING thing is that UKG has made virtually no attempt to punish, tax or chide the antivaxxers into getting the jab. They are the reason we are back in the shit. Look at @foxy's post today - every Covid victim in his ICU is unvaxxed
WHY is the government so totally spineless on this issue? Fear of being seen as racist? Fear of the "libertarian lobby"?
Before they make my life miserable, and condemn my kids to more damaged mental health, perhaps the fucking government could tackle the people who are causing all this shit, rather than jailing absolutely everyone
This is the smartest thing you've said on COVID recently. Governments sooner or later are going to have to be a lot tougher on the anti-vaxxers. One obvious thing to do is to deprioritize anti-vaxxers for NHS treatment.
I agree, but not your last sentence. That would be a slippery slope imo. (Next exclude, addicts, then those who caused their own injuries,... Where do you stop?)
Denying unvaxed Covid suffers medical care is just not going to happen. It's an utterly pointless suggestion.
Being in ICU is punishment.
Anyone who thinks otherwise has never seen the inside of an ICU. People who go in there have a very, very high risk of coming out dead and the survivors often have flashbacks and PTSD
ICU is no featherbedded picnic. It is the last-chance saloon for the nearly dead.
The issue is, while they're in there because of their stupidity and selfishness some totally innocent person who was involved in a car accident can't have that ICU bed which gives them their one chance of survival.
And that's more than a bit off.
I don't think you can deny people medical care. But you can deprioritize them for treatment. If someone is in ICU for COVID because they are unvaxxed, there are no beds left because of many other similarly selfish people, and someone comes in due to a car accident, they should have to give that bed up.
I think we can compromise though. People should only fall into the deprioritized category if they don't get a vaccine dose after six months of being eligible for it.
Comments
If you blindly trust the experts, you are as much of an idiot as those who blindly trust politicians.
And yet, on and on it went. An all-embracing disaster
Food and drink for human consumption is usually zero-rated but some items are always standard-rated. These include catering, alcoholic drinks, confectionery, crisps and savoury snacks, hot food, sports drinks, hot takeaways, ice cream, soft drinks and mineral water.
What is there for antivaxxers ?
A hard lockdown will apply in the Netherlands from 5 a.m. tomorrow morning. Sources in The Hague confirm that the cabinet is adopting the advice of the Outbreak Management Team to close as many sectors as possible. In any case, the new measures will remain in force until January 14.
It was already clear that the OMT and the cabinet are very concerned about the rapid spread of the omikron variant of the coronavirus.
The experts advise closing almost everything: only essential shops such as supermarkets and pharmacies should remain open, sources in The Hague confirmed yesterday. The cabinet held emergency consultations this afternoon and has reportedly adopted the advice for the hard lockdown.
This means that the catering industry, non-essential shops and the sports and culture sector will have to close again. Pickup at shops and catering would remain possible. As far as the experts are concerned, all secondary schools and other educational institutions must also close. Primary schools have already closed early for the Christmas holidays.
'Four people at Christmas'
The group size outside is reduced to a maximum of 2 people. A maximum of 2 visitors should also be allowed inside. Reportedly there will be an exception for Christmas: then 4 visitors are welcome. This exception would not apply to New Year's Eve.
The new measures will be explained in a press conference at 7 pm.
https://nos.nl/artikel/2410002-vanaf-morgen-vrijwel-alles-dicht-harde-lockdown-zeker-tot-14-januari
But ok, there is definition leeway here. Let's firm up. I don't think there'll be rule of 6, nor the closing down of hospitality. WFH is a certainty imo but guidance not law.
I'm not quite as confident as I've been before though, this is true. And it looks like bad times coming for the NHS, regardless of govt action.
God, it was brutal. Queuing in the freezing cold for supermarkets. One by one
The simple fact is it’s not concern about the stress on health systems that’s driving the punishment debate but political views. Being an anti-vaxxer is seen as right wing, therefore it’s fine to punish. However, being fat is “your choice” and to criticise it is “fat shaming” so we never debate charging extra for it. Hence why we have to go the back door route of taxation (at least with cigs, it’s blatantly obviously smokers are despised. With fat people, it’s “oohhh, it’s your body, you’re beautiful”)
I guess there are still people aiming for complete victory over Covid, and not willing to accept a vaccine-mediated settlement.
Wales don't report on Saturdays. Would be another 3k cases.
The government is not proposing to close down "all hospitality", but they are proposing (it is alleged) to close down all indoor hospitality, which is essentially the same thing for 90% of businesses, esp in winter. And they are imposing restrictions on socialising, bringing back the rule of 6, et al
That is a lockdown, and it seems you agree, and I am pretty certain it is coming. But I pray that you are right and I am wrong
Highest Boosters to date: 861,306 (17/12)
Nearest estimate: @carnyx (854,217)
Next nearest: @Richard_Nabavi (896,322)
Eliminated entries:
@Endillion 525,600
@MightyAlex 700,000
@Cyclefree 723,527
@Eabhal 825,000
I suspect the howls of outrage from certain areas are because they realise they benefit from certain “loose” practices.
I don’t think that’s going to happen here. Nobody will dare lock things down until after Christmas. By that time I wouldn’t mind betting that London cases will have peaked already anyway. Then Boris will have Baker and Co on his back benches to deal with. So they’ll go incrementally, by which point hopefully the country as a whole will have peaked and be on the way down.
Is this the first glimmer of hope? Is it going to do here what it did in Gauteng? Just fall back inexplicably?
Personally, I would vote to put FoM back in place so that that those growing up have more options than being locked up in Boris's Britain and businesses have an opportunity to open up all the markets that were taken away from them.
I ask because the latest ICNARC report shows that 74% of patients admitted to ICU with Covid since May 2021 have been white. The ratios (rounded) are:
White 74%
Mixed 2%
Asian 11%
Black 8%
Other 6%
So yes, asian and black people are over represented but not massivley so. And consider also the wealth/deprivation breakdown. ICU covid patients are 3 times more likely to be from the most deprived quitile than from the least deprived.
https://www.icnarc.org/Our-Audit/Audits/Cmp/Reports
A careful perusal of the rules would have spotted that breweries with an off-site license could still serve takeaway in a closed bottle.
tldr: stock up on growlers if that exception is not spotted.
Possibly erroneously in this case given the Tories’ new voting bloc may well include large numbers who would also be put off by ID requirements.
https://coronavirus.data.gov.uk/details/cases?areaType=region&areaName=London
13th -> 17th Dec by specimen date
That looks over 100,000 incoming once they're filled to me.
This is the problem. Normal people are far more likely to follow Chris Whitty than Joy Morrissey. So they have to attack the whole idea of having a doctor because otherwise how do you persuade them that someone with no medical or scientific training is the better person to advise what we do?
There are so many better ways of getting these people vaccinated, a vaccine passport will achieve the sum total of fuck all. Countries that have implemented them still have many millions of older unvaccinated people but more under 40s vaccinated. Explain to me, other than making you feel superior, exactly what that achieves?
In any case, I have proposed a perfectly sensible solution to this, that eliminates personation as a crime, without penalising those without photo ID. They have a polaroid camera at the polling station, and those without Photo ID sign the back testifying to who they are.
After the election (and especially in the event of a very close result), one can confirm whether the person in the photo is who they say they are. The number of people who would commit personation while having their photo taken is going to be very, very small.
I suppose some will. But in a contest between rhetoric and reality, reality will eventually prevail. I know it hasn't happened yet, but give it time. My sentiment is that shift will start happening before too long.
British Asians are - as a group - younger than the general population, no?
They might as well have stamped a yellow star on our arms.
Not that they actually checked the QR code.
They are pretty much pointless in the UK at this stage, with Omicron
Anyone who thinks otherwise has never seen the inside of an ICU. People who go in there have a very, very high risk of coming out dead and the survivors often have flashbacks and PTSD
ICU is no featherbedded picnic. It is the last-chance saloon for the nearly dead.
The worst thing about a lockdown will be that it drags this thing out.
My dad is on the shielding list. It is a lot easier to tunnel through a short sharp peak than through a long plateau.
And that's more than a bit off.
You are not obliged to answer my question there Ydoethur, but I think I am asking the right person close to education, have you seen equality in opportunity when it comes to IT for remote learning - if not, what will it take to get there?
Or are you embellishing for dramatic effect ?
I am a great fan of information. But not that, now.
"Ambiguous grid by Kokichi Sugihara of Meiji University in Japan. A mathematically calculated combination of perspective and the physics of reflection produce this striking illusion that works in many configurations https://buff.ly/2KlbiKD [more: https://buff.ly/2HDW9GM]"
https://twitter.com/Rainmaker1973/status/1472212555892355076?s=20
Not the official numbers because so many negative (and some positive) are not registered.
Just saying plenty of people in SA had Delta, some had Alpha, Beta and Delta, and still got Omicron. Hence the its mild narrative.
And bear in mind that Omicron cases were basically zero there just 30 days ago.
Now, that could be that it's all modified behaviour (but if it is modified behaviour, that tells you that lockdowns do work against Omicron, but that's another story). But I suspect it is mostly because it simply burns through the vulnerable very quickly.
Hospitalisations remain ok. If Guanteng was going to have a massive problem, then - unless there is an unusually long incubation period for Omicron - it's going to be seen in the next seven days.
I'm struggling to see why we would expect the UK to be much worse hit than South Africa. Sure, we're older, and we have less immunity conferred by infection. But we're older because we're healthier - South African life expectancy is in the mid-60s. And it's not like the UK doesn't have plenty of infection conferred immunity. Heck, it's got no shortage of people who've been treble jabbed and infected. It also doesn't have a major HIV/AIDS problem, a creaky health service, and both malnutrition and obesity issues.
If London hospitalizations don't start to really move in the next week, then I think we can probably all breath a big sigh of relief. Based on actual real world evidence of hundreds of thousands of South Africans, Omicron does not seem to hospitalize or kill at the same rates as previous variants.
Besides, it's not only the period of harsh measures that's the problem, it's the months and months of slow crawl out of them as well.
Outside London I only saw queues during lockdown 1
I think we can compromise though. People should only fall into the deprioritized category if they don't get a vaccine dose after six months of being eligible for it.
It was very unpleasant at the time though.