78,610 cases......I presume 100k will be breeched by end of the week.
The usual suspects will be ramping up the pressure to cancel Christmas.
Well, what do you think?
No further restrictions needed? Everything going fine?
What would you do? You have been asked this repeatedly but if you have answered I must have missed it.
Tell us what restrictions you favour.
As I said and you were apparently unable to understand (or perhaps read), whatever it takes to try to prevent the NHS collapsing and people dying without medical care.
Are you saying that we shouldn't try to prevent the NHS collapsing? By implication that seems to be the opinion of many here.
OK we're getting there. So no one is allowed to die of Covid. Is that what you're after? How would you achieve that.
The tortuous way this troll avoids a) saying what he would do and/or b) putting his money where his very big sanctimonious mouth is is truly breathtaking.
Is @Chris a troll? The vast majority of the public would agree with him and disagree with you?
Agree with what? It's impossible to get him to explain his position.
Frankly, the fact that you people keep saying that is simply an admission of your fundamental dishonesty.
How can I make it any clearer? WE MUST DO WHATEVER IT TAKES TO PREVENT THE NHS COLLAPSING AND BEING UNABLE TO GIVE PEOPLE MEDICAL CARE
It's a simple, fundamental political choice. If people disagree, they should have the honesty to say so. The fact that they have so much difficulty in doing so speaks volumes.
But you still haven't outlined any specific measures, just a generalised bit it rhetoric. What specific measures are we talking about here? Lockdown? Economic shutdown? For how long? How do we keep shelves stocked? Will the government send around the ration van? What are you specifically saying needs to be done?
Oh, for God's sake I don't believe you're really such a fool that you can't understand plain English.
Don't waste my time.
Chris why don't we indulge in a thought experiment.
Let's imagine you are really, really clever and we are really, really stupid. With me so far?
Then imagine you have to tell a bunch of really, really stupid people what measures you would implement to avoid all the stuff IN CAPS AND BOLD you wrote.
The position in the conservative party is surreal from my point of view as I want to see Boris replaced, but not with someone who sides with the rebels who I disagree with so then I have to take Boris's side and just cannot start to understand why the rebels could not foresee that yesterday's proposals were not only proportionate, but also has the full support of the vast majority of the public
I expect tonight's press conference will be very worrying for ordinary voters and will highlight just how politically naive those 126 noes were yesteday including the lib dems and greens
Have you seen whan the SA doctor said in July about Covid (Delta) and what she says now.(Omicron)
Unless we are a different breed than South Africans Omicron has much milder effects than Delta.
She is a Doctor, she has experienced both waves, she knows what she is talking about.
She is one opinion and not from our own scientists actually dealing with it here in the UK
In July she gave an interview about how terrible the Delta wave was with descriptions of the patients she was seeing.
Now she has described the current patients she is seeing with Omicron.
These are not opinions. These are real world happenings.
She is from Gauteng which was the start of Omicron, in fact she discovered it.
Cases are now dropping there and the nature of the patients she is seeing have not changed.
Please tell me how these facts are opinions?
It is upto our scientists to recommend to our government action needed not for us to delegate it to South Africa's medics
I agree but the evidence from SA is being ignored.
Did we ignore the evidence from Italy in Feb 2020 or India in April 2021 ?
It has actually been directly referred to by Chris Whitty j7st now with a health warning and a detailed explanation
I listened very carefully and he made himself sound a moron
And as mentioned on the other thread there's no doubt cases are skyrocketing but we just ran out of LFT tests this week ffs that surely also indicates larger amounts of testing.
You don't believe the growth rate is real?
If you did, would it concern you at all? Could you put it together with a way in which the hospitals could possibly cope with this?
I believe cases have grown but also that the amount of testing has grown also. Do you think that might mean reported cases grow also simply dependent upon the testing.
Plus what is your plan. Very interested to hear.
You're talking drivel. The number of tests in the last week is up by 15% on the previous week. The growth rate of Omicron is estimated as a doubling every 2-3 days. And that is quite believable if it has the same intrinsic transmissibility as Delta, and the amount of immune escape indicated by the antibody testing. To suggest that's not really happening is the feeblest evasion.
And I can't make it any clearer. What's necessary is to do WHATEVER IS NECESSARY to control the rate of growth so that the NHS can cope with this, rather than leaving people to die without medical care. That is simple common sense.
DO YOU DISAGREE? DO YOU DISAGREE? DO YOU DISAGREE?
I disagree. Cases aren't relevant. What are relevant are hospitalisations and/or deaths.
"Cases aren't relevant."
They are, and they are not. If the aim is to stop the NHS collapsing, then waiting until you get large numbers of hospitalisations is too late due to the lag: by the time you introduce measures, you have a week or two of infections coming through, as we have seen previously in this pandemic.
Therefore whilst cases are not directly relevant, they're the best measure of what will happen. Now, hopefully Omicron is mild for many more people than Delta. But assuming that - or the extent of its mildness - is a massive gamble for the government.
Cases are relevant - over 50s is where the shit is flying towards the fan is. Then it hits the fan and becomes hospitalisations.
Case numbers are shit for inter country comparisons. But they are good at detecting *changes* in a country or region.
Cases are irrelevant.
Cases reached a trough at the start of November with the midterm holidays and have been rising ever since for the past six weeks. Yet six weeks after cases have been rising the deaths are still falling.
Its worth remembering that while cases have been rising so have vaccinations. All the vulnerable should have had three jabs now. So cases should be milder whether Delta or Omicron because immunity will be better. More cases in a more vaccinated population can mean fewer deaths and hospitalisations, not more.
Cases can only go so far. With the vulnerable having had three jabs and everyone else coming forward for a third now too, why should we give a shit about cases?
Wrong.
In the older groups, more cases will mean more hospitalisations. There are enough un-vaxed, older people out there to fuck the hospitals up, if enough cases happen in a short enough period of time.
In addition, vaccinating have massively weakened the CHR - not eliminated it. Hence seeing double and triple taxed people in hospitals.
The first group is just Darwinism. They're dying if stupidity and there's not a lot we can do about it.
Don't get Witty's point about Omicron mildness being due to widespread prior immunity. Given the UK has 90% of over 16s vaccinated and has had a significant Delta wave, surely we are in a similar position?
The position in the conservative party is surreal from my point of view as I want to see Boris replaced, but not with someone who sides with the rebels who I disagree with so then I have to take Boris's side and just cannot start to understand why the rebels could not foresee that yesterday's proposals were not only proportionate, but also has the full support of the vast majority of the public
I expect tonight's press conference will be very worrying for ordinary voters and will highlight just how politically naive those 126 noes were yesteday including the lib dems and greens
Have you seen whan the SA doctor said in July about Covid (Delta) and what she says now.(Omicron)
Unless we are a different breed than South Africans Omicron has much milder effects than Delta.
She is a Doctor, she has experienced both waves, she knows what she is talking about.
She is one opinion and not from our own scientists actually dealing with it here in the UK
In July she gave an interview about how terrible the Delta wave was with descriptions of the patients she was seeing.
Now she has described the current patients she is seeing with Omicron.
These are not opinions. These are real world happenings.
She is from Gauteng which was the start of Omicron, in fact she discovered it.
Cases are now dropping there and the nature of the patients she is seeing have not changed.
Please tell me how these facts are opinions?
It is upto our scientists to recommend to our government action needed not for us to delegate it to South Africa's medics
Chris Whitty has put a health warning on South Africa evidence live just now
I think they are concerned that a "it's not as bad" narrative may hamper booster take-up.
Didn't watch Boris, but my sense is nothing has happened.
Just free advertising for him with a by-election due?
It’s worth watching as a master class in the art of politics. By all accounts he should be out on his arse by now. And yet he’s stood there invoking war time spirit in front of millions and has completely batted away the scandals that should have sunk him.
Well, I have successfully been scared into cancelling my planned drinks tonight. Not because I'm worried about catching or even spreading the virus, I'm triple jabbed as is every member of my family other than my younger brother (not yet eligible), but because I can't face the idea of another Christmas locked up in my flat, which seems to be a likely consequence of heading out at this point. Sigh - fear of restrictions > fear of virus.
ISage calling for 10 day circuit breaker. Can see the logic to be honest. At least gives us more time to get the boosters in. Each day we slow the spread is 500-600k people a bit better protected.
Essentially we can't stop the omicron wave, but we can buy a bit more time for people to have their booster doses.
The position in the conservative party is surreal from my point of view as I want to see Boris replaced, but not with someone who sides with the rebels who I disagree with so then I have to take Boris's side and just cannot start to understand why the rebels could not foresee that yesterday's proposals were not only proportionate, but also has the full support of the vast majority of the public
I expect tonight's press conference will be very worrying for ordinary voters and will highlight just how politically naive those 126 noes were yesteday including the lib dems and greens
Have you seen whan the SA doctor said in July about Covid (Delta) and what she says now.(Omicron)
Unless we are a different breed than South Africans Omicron has much milder effects than Delta.
She is a Doctor, she has experienced both waves, she knows what she is talking about.
She is one opinion and not from our own scientists actually dealing with it here in the UK
In July she gave an interview about how terrible the Delta wave was with descriptions of the patients she was seeing.
Now she has described the current patients she is seeing with Omicron.
These are not opinions. These are real world happenings.
She is from Gauteng which was the start of Omicron, in fact she discovered it.
Cases are now dropping there and the nature of the patients she is seeing have not changed.
Please tell me how these facts are opinions?
It is upto our scientists to recommend to our government action needed not for us to delegate it to South Africa's medics
I agree but the evidence from SA is being ignored.
Did we ignore the evidence from Italy in Feb 2020 or India in April 2021 ?
It has actually been directly referred to by Chris Whitty j7st now with a health warning and a detailed explanation
I listened very carefully and he made himself sound a moron
You mean he gave a scientific response to those claiming the evidence from South Africa was relevant to the UK at this time
Well, I have successfully been scared into cancelling my planned drinks tonight. Not because I'm worried about catching or even spreading the virus, I'm triple jabbed as is every member of my family other than my younger brother (not yet eligible), but because I can't face the idea of another Christmas locked up in my flat, which seems to be a likely consequence of heading out at this point. Sigh - fear of restrictions > fear of virus.
Exactly my position. I couldn’t care less from the 26th onwards but I’ll do everything I can not to spoil my boy’s Christmas
Don't get Witty's point about Omicron mildness being due to widespread prior immunity. Given the UK has 90% of over 16s vaccinated and has had a significant Delta wave, surely we are in a similar position?
Of course we are, its nonsense to not think that we will have a similar experience to SA.
ISage calling for 10 day circuit breaker. Can see the logic to be honest. At least gives us more time to get the boosters in. Each day we slow the spread is 500-600k people a bit better protected.
Essentially we can't stop the omicron wave, but we can buy a bit more time for people to have their booster doses.
How would anyone get that through parliament. It's a non-starter*.
So in SA in Guateng it looks like hospital admissions went +200%, +100%, +50% on a weekly basis. Other regions have done the first 200%, will be interesting to see fi they follow the patttern.
Current week is incomplete and I haven't worked out the likely figure just yet, could well be ending up flat. That's a liveable with explosion as long as the fall is reasonably fast given the low ration of ICU patients in that.
Well, I have successfully been scared into cancelling my planned drinks tonight. Not because I'm worried about catching or even spreading the virus, I'm triple jabbed as is every member of my family other than my younger brother (not yet eligible), but because I can't face the idea of another Christmas locked up in my flat, which seems to be a likely consequence of heading out at this point. Sigh - fear of restrictions > fear of virus.
Exactly my position. I couldn’t care less from the 26th onwards but I’ll do everything I can not to spoil my boy’s Christmas
The position in the conservative party is surreal from my point of view as I want to see Boris replaced, but not with someone who sides with the rebels who I disagree with so then I have to take Boris's side and just cannot start to understand why the rebels could not foresee that yesterday's proposals were not only proportionate, but also has the full support of the vast majority of the public
I expect tonight's press conference will be very worrying for ordinary voters and will highlight just how politically naive those 126 noes were yesteday including the lib dems and greens
Have you seen whan the SA doctor said in July about Covid (Delta) and what she says now.(Omicron)
Unless we are a different breed than South Africans Omicron has much milder effects than Delta.
She is a Doctor, she has experienced both waves, she knows what she is talking about.
She is one opinion and not from our own scientists actually dealing with it here in the UK
In July she gave an interview about how terrible the Delta wave was with descriptions of the patients she was seeing.
Now she has described the current patients she is seeing with Omicron.
These are not opinions. These are real world happenings.
She is from Gauteng which was the start of Omicron, in fact she discovered it.
Cases are now dropping there and the nature of the patients she is seeing have not changed.
Please tell me how these facts are opinions?
It is upto our scientists to recommend to our government action needed not for us to delegate it to South Africa's medics
Chris Whitty has put a health warning on South Africa evidence live just now
I think they are concerned that a "it's not as bad" narrative may hamper booster take-up.
78,610 cases......I presume 100k will be breeched by end of the week.
The usual suspects will be ramping up the pressure to cancel Christmas.
Well, what do you think?
No further restrictions needed? Everything going fine?
What would you do? You have been asked this repeatedly but if you have answered I must have missed it.
Tell us what restrictions you favour.
As I said and you were apparently unable to understand (or perhaps read), whatever it takes to try to prevent the NHS collapsing and people dying without medical care.
Are you saying that we shouldn't try to prevent the NHS collapsing? By implication that seems to be the opinion of many here.
OK we're getting there. So no one is allowed to die of Covid. Is that what you're after? How would you achieve that.
The tortuous way this troll avoids a) saying what he would do and/or b) putting his money where his very big sanctimonious mouth is is truly breathtaking.
Is @Chris a troll? The vast majority of the public would agree with him and disagree with you?
Agree with what? It's impossible to get him to explain his position.
Frankly, the fact that you people keep saying that is simply an admission of your fundamental dishonesty.
How can I make it any clearer? WE MUST DO WHATEVER IT TAKES TO PREVENT THE NHS COLLAPSING AND BEING UNABLE TO GIVE PEOPLE MEDICAL CARE
It's a simple, fundamental political choice. If people disagree, they should have the honesty to say so. The fact that they have so much difficulty in doing so speaks volumes.
But you still haven't outlined any specific measures, just a generalised bit it rhetoric. What specific measures are we talking about here? Lockdown? Economic shutdown? For how long? How do we keep shelves stocked? Will the government send around the ration van? What are you specifically saying needs to be done?
Oh, for God's sake I don't believe you're really such a fool that you can't understand plain English.
Don't waste my time.
To prevent more time wasting, assume that all are in DISAGREE.
I've waited 18 months for NHS care. Annoying, but a balance had to be struck across financial resources and the life of the country outside of healthcare.
Much has been made of mental health, for example. There is no health-cost free option during a pandemic.
Well, I have successfully been scared into cancelling my planned drinks tonight. Not because I'm worried about catching or even spreading the virus, I'm triple jabbed as is every member of my family other than my younger brother (not yet eligible), but because I can't face the idea of another Christmas locked up in my flat, which seems to be a likely consequence of heading out at this point. Sigh - fear of restrictions > fear of virus.
Yes, it was something my wife and I were discussing this morning, in an odd way we're sort of okay with getting it now as we're just about on the right side of Xmas to not have to be isolating by the time we get there next Saturday. Neither of us have got any symptoms now and if we can get it over and done with it would put us in the clear in January to not worry very much about being infected, Omicron or not.
The position in the conservative party is surreal from my point of view as I want to see Boris replaced, but not with someone who sides with the rebels who I disagree with so then I have to take Boris's side and just cannot start to understand why the rebels could not foresee that yesterday's proposals were not only proportionate, but also has the full support of the vast majority of the public
I expect tonight's press conference will be very worrying for ordinary voters and will highlight just how politically naive those 126 noes were yesteday including the lib dems and greens
Have you seen whan the SA doctor said in July about Covid (Delta) and what she says now.(Omicron)
Unless we are a different breed than South Africans Omicron has much milder effects than Delta.
She is a Doctor, she has experienced both waves, she knows what she is talking about.
She is one opinion and not from our own scientists actually dealing with it here in the UK
In July she gave an interview about how terrible the Delta wave was with descriptions of the patients she was seeing.
Now she has described the current patients she is seeing with Omicron.
These are not opinions. These are real world happenings.
She is from Gauteng which was the start of Omicron, in fact she discovered it.
Cases are now dropping there and the nature of the patients she is seeing have not changed.
Please tell me how these facts are opinions?
It is upto our scientists to recommend to our government action needed not for us to delegate it to South Africa's medics
I agree but the evidence from SA is being ignored.
Did we ignore the evidence from Italy in Feb 2020 or India in April 2021 ?
It has actually been directly referred to by Chris Whitty j7st now with a health warning and a detailed explanation
I listened very carefully and he made himself sound a moron
You mean he gave a scientific response to those claiming the evidence from South Africa was relevant to the UK at this time
He didn’t. He said hospitalisation in South Africa might be low because they have very good immunity due to their delta wave, so we shouldn’t take any notice of it. Well so do we, and we have an excellent vaccine programme on top whereas they don’t.
He did not give a scientific explanation of any sort why the UK experience should be different to South Africa, because the only thing he might have said that made sense is “the vaccines don’t really work”. Which we already know is also wrong, even with only two doses.
ISage calling for 10 day circuit breaker. Can see the logic to be honest. At least gives us more time to get the boosters in. Each day we slow the spread is 500-600k people a bit better protected.
Essentially we can't stop the omicron wave, but we can buy a bit more time for people to have their booster doses.
How would anyone get that through parliament. It's a non-starter*.
78,610 cases......I presume 100k will be breeched by end of the week.
The usual suspects will be ramping up the pressure to cancel Christmas.
Well, what do you think?
No further restrictions needed? Everything going fine?
What would you do? You have been asked this repeatedly but if you have answered I must have missed it.
Tell us what restrictions you favour.
As I said and you were apparently unable to understand (or perhaps read), whatever it takes to try to prevent the NHS collapsing and people dying without medical care.
Are you saying that we shouldn't try to prevent the NHS collapsing? By implication that seems to be the opinion of many here.
OK we're getting there. So no one is allowed to die of Covid. Is that what you're after? How would you achieve that.
The tortuous way this troll avoids a) saying what he would do and/or b) putting his money where his very big sanctimonious mouth is is truly breathtaking.
Is @Chris a troll? The vast majority of the public would agree with him and disagree with you?
Agree with what? It's impossible to get him to explain his position.
Frankly, the fact that you people keep saying that is simply an admission of your fundamental dishonesty.
How can I make it any clearer? WE MUST DO WHATEVER IT TAKES TO PREVENT THE NHS COLLAPSING AND BEING UNABLE TO GIVE PEOPLE MEDICAL CARE
It's a simple, fundamental political choice. If people disagree, they should have the honesty to say so. The fact that they have so much difficulty in doing so speaks volumes.
But you still haven't outlined any specific measures, just a generalised bit it rhetoric. What specific measures are we talking about here? Lockdown? Economic shutdown? For how long? How do we keep shelves stocked? Will the government send around the ration van? What are you specifically saying needs to be done?
Oh, for God's sake I don't believe you're really such a fool that you can't understand plain English.
Don't waste my time.
To prevent more time wasting, assume that all are in DISAGREE.
I've waited 18 months for NHS care. Annoying, but a balance had to be struck across financial resources and the life of the country outside of healthcare.
Much has been made of mental health, for example. There is no health-cost free option during a pandemic.
Interestingly, suicides fell quite substantially last year.
Well, I have successfully been scared into cancelling my planned drinks tonight. Not because I'm worried about catching or even spreading the virus, I'm triple jabbed as is every member of my family other than my younger brother (not yet eligible), but because I can't face the idea of another Christmas locked up in my flat, which seems to be a likely consequence of heading out at this point. Sigh - fear of restrictions > fear of virus.
Yes, it was something my wife and I were discussing this morning, in an odd way we're sort of okay with getting it now as we're just about on the right side of Xmas to not have to be isolating by the time we get there next Saturday. Neither of us have got any symptoms now and if we can get it over and done with it would put us in the clear in January to not worry very much about being infected, Omicron or not.
I think the nation would be happy to self isolate from, say, 3rd to 13th of Jan.
Well, I have successfully been scared into cancelling my planned drinks tonight. Not because I'm worried about catching or even spreading the virus, I'm triple jabbed as is every member of my family other than my younger brother (not yet eligible), but because I can't face the idea of another Christmas locked up in my flat, which seems to be a likely consequence of heading out at this point. Sigh - fear of restrictions > fear of virus.
Exactly my position. I couldn’t care less from the 26th onwards but I’ll do everything I can not to spoil my boy’s Christmas
Did Witty really just bat away South Africa’s experience of low hospitalisations as being irrelevant on the basis that they had really good immunity from prior waves?
No - he gave a responsible comment about the evidence from South Africa and why we need to be cautious
Well, I have successfully been scared into cancelling my planned drinks tonight. Not because I'm worried about catching or even spreading the virus, I'm triple jabbed as is every member of my family other than my younger brother (not yet eligible), but because I can't face the idea of another Christmas locked up in my flat, which seems to be a likely consequence of heading out at this point. Sigh - fear of restrictions > fear of virus.
Exactly my position. I couldn’t care less from the 26th onwards but I’ll do everything I can not to spoil my boy’s Christmas
Don't get Witty's point about Omicron mildness being due to widespread prior immunity. Given the UK has 90% of over 16s vaccinated and has had a significant Delta wave, surely we are in a similar position?
Of course we are, its nonsense to not think that we will have a similar experience to SA.
The median age of SA is 27, Median age of the UK is 40. Yes I know SA has a lot of HIV and AIDS, but just as big of a factor is age when it comes to Covid outcomes.
78,610 cases......I presume 100k will be breeched by end of the week.
The usual suspects will be ramping up the pressure to cancel Christmas.
Well, what do you think?
No further restrictions needed? Everything going fine?
What would you do? You have been asked this repeatedly but if you have answered I must have missed it.
Tell us what restrictions you favour.
As I said and you were apparently unable to understand (or perhaps read), whatever it takes to try to prevent the NHS collapsing and people dying without medical care.
Are you saying that we shouldn't try to prevent the NHS collapsing? By implication that seems to be the opinion of many here.
OK we're getting there. So no one is allowed to die of Covid. Is that what you're after? How would you achieve that.
The tortuous way this troll avoids a) saying what he would do and/or b) putting his money where his very big sanctimonious mouth is is truly breathtaking.
Is @Chris a troll? The vast majority of the public would agree with him and disagree with you?
Agree with what? It's impossible to get him to explain his position.
Frankly, the fact that you people keep saying that is simply an admission of your fundamental dishonesty.
How can I make it any clearer? WE MUST DO WHATEVER IT TAKES TO PREVENT THE NHS COLLAPSING AND BEING UNABLE TO GIVE PEOPLE MEDICAL CARE
It's a simple, fundamental political choice. If people disagree, they should have the honesty to say so. The fact that they have so much difficulty in doing so speaks volumes.
But you still haven't outlined any specific measures, just a generalised bit it rhetoric. What specific measures are we talking about here? Lockdown? Economic shutdown? For how long? How do we keep shelves stocked? Will the government send around the ration van? What are you specifically saying needs to be done?
Oh, for God's sake I don't believe you're really such a fool that you can't understand plain English.
Don't waste my time.
To prevent more time wasting, assume that all are in DISAGREE.
I've waited 18 months for NHS care. Annoying, but a balance had to be struck across financial resources and the life of the country outside of healthcare.
Much has been made of mental health, for example. There is no health-cost free option during a pandemic.
Interestingly, suicides fell quite substantially last year.
Whitty throwing cold water on the "omicron less severe" line of reasoning.
He is ignoring real world evidence. I simply don't understand why he would do that. He didn't when the news was bad from other countries.
I think I would believe Chris Whitty before someone without his scientific knowledge of the subject
Especially when what he is saying is clear. Previous variants and vaccines reduce hospitalisation rates. That means that people have less severe illness - not dying / going into ICU. But a low percentage of very high numbers infected means you have the same numbers or more who are dying / going into ICU.
78,610 cases......I presume 100k will be breeched by end of the week.
The usual suspects will be ramping up the pressure to cancel Christmas.
Well, what do you think?
No further restrictions needed? Everything going fine?
What would you do? You have been asked this repeatedly but if you have answered I must have missed it.
Tell us what restrictions you favour.
As I said and you were apparently unable to understand (or perhaps read), whatever it takes to try to prevent the NHS collapsing and people dying without medical care.
Are you saying that we shouldn't try to prevent the NHS collapsing? By implication that seems to be the opinion of many here.
OK we're getting there. So no one is allowed to die of Covid. Is that what you're after? How would you achieve that.
The tortuous way this troll avoids a) saying what he would do and/or b) putting his money where his very big sanctimonious mouth is is truly breathtaking.
Is @Chris a troll? The vast majority of the public would agree with him and disagree with you?
Agree with what? It's impossible to get him to explain his position.
Frankly, the fact that you people keep saying that is simply an admission of your fundamental dishonesty.
How can I make it any clearer? WE MUST DO WHATEVER IT TAKES TO PREVENT THE NHS COLLAPSING AND BEING UNABLE TO GIVE PEOPLE MEDICAL CARE
It's a simple, fundamental political choice. If people disagree, they should have the honesty to say so. The fact that they have so much difficulty in doing so speaks volumes.
But you still haven't outlined any specific measures, just a generalised bit it rhetoric. What specific measures are we talking about here? Lockdown? Economic shutdown? For how long? How do we keep shelves stocked? Will the government send around the ration van? What are you specifically saying needs to be done?
Oh, for God's sake I don't believe you're really such a fool that you can't understand plain English.
Don't waste my time.
To prevent more time wasting, assume that all are in DISAGREE.
I've waited 18 months for NHS care. Annoying, but a balance had to be struck across financial resources and the life of the country outside of healthcare.
Much has been made of mental health, for example. There is no health-cost free option during a pandemic.
Interestingly, suicides fell quite substantially last year.
I noticed that. Its weirdly counter intuitive.
It makes some sense. E.g. fewer opportunities during lockdown due to other people being around.
Did Witty really just bat away South Africa’s experience of low hospitalisations as being irrelevant on the basis that they had really good immunity from prior waves?
No - he gave a responsible comment about the evidence from South Africa and why we need to be cautious
It rather depends on whether you think we should run things based on the best available evidence or take the most extreme interpretation just in case. Let us not forget, the PM has basically told GPs to do little else but give boosters. This has consequences and the upside is questionable, given we are already through the most vulnerable groups.
78,610 cases......I presume 100k will be breeched by end of the week.
The usual suspects will be ramping up the pressure to cancel Christmas.
Well, what do you think?
No further restrictions needed? Everything going fine?
What would you do? You have been asked this repeatedly but if you have answered I must have missed it.
Tell us what restrictions you favour.
As I said and you were apparently unable to understand (or perhaps read), whatever it takes to try to prevent the NHS collapsing and people dying without medical care.
Are you saying that we shouldn't try to prevent the NHS collapsing? By implication that seems to be the opinion of many here.
OK we're getting there. So no one is allowed to die of Covid. Is that what you're after? How would you achieve that.
The tortuous way this troll avoids a) saying what he would do and/or b) putting his money where his very big sanctimonious mouth is is truly breathtaking.
Is @Chris a troll? The vast majority of the public would agree with him and disagree with you?
Agree with what? It's impossible to get him to explain his position.
Frankly, the fact that you people keep saying that is simply an admission of your fundamental dishonesty.
How can I make it any clearer? WE MUST DO WHATEVER IT TAKES TO PREVENT THE NHS COLLAPSING AND BEING UNABLE TO GIVE PEOPLE MEDICAL CARE
It's a simple, fundamental political choice. If people disagree, they should have the honesty to say so. The fact that they have so much difficulty in doing so speaks volumes.
But you still haven't outlined any specific measures, just a generalised bit it rhetoric. What specific measures are we talking about here? Lockdown? Economic shutdown? For how long? How do we keep shelves stocked? Will the government send around the ration van? What are you specifically saying needs to be done?
Oh, for God's sake I don't believe you're really such a fool that you can't understand plain English.
Don't waste my time.
To prevent more time wasting, assume that all are in DISAGREE.
I've waited 18 months for NHS care. Annoying, but a balance had to be struck across financial resources and the life of the country outside of healthcare.
Much has been made of mental health, for example. There is no health-cost free option during a pandemic.
Interestingly, suicides fell quite substantially last year.
I noticed that. Its weirdly counter intuitive.
Happened in WW and ww2 I believe. Not that I understand it, either.
78,610 cases......I presume 100k will be breeched by end of the week.
The usual suspects will be ramping up the pressure to cancel Christmas.
Well, what do you think?
No further restrictions needed? Everything going fine?
What would you do? You have been asked this repeatedly but if you have answered I must have missed it.
Tell us what restrictions you favour.
As I said and you were apparently unable to understand (or perhaps read), whatever it takes to try to prevent the NHS collapsing and people dying without medical care.
Are you saying that we shouldn't try to prevent the NHS collapsing? By implication that seems to be the opinion of many here.
OK we're getting there. So no one is allowed to die of Covid. Is that what you're after? How would you achieve that.
The tortuous way this troll avoids a) saying what he would do and/or b) putting his money where his very big sanctimonious mouth is is truly breathtaking.
Is @Chris a troll? The vast majority of the public would agree with him and disagree with you?
Agree with what? It's impossible to get him to explain his position.
Frankly, the fact that you people keep saying that is simply an admission of your fundamental dishonesty.
How can I make it any clearer? WE MUST DO WHATEVER IT TAKES TO PREVENT THE NHS COLLAPSING AND BEING UNABLE TO GIVE PEOPLE MEDICAL CARE
It's a simple, fundamental political choice. If people disagree, they should have the honesty to say so. The fact that they have so much difficulty in doing so speaks volumes.
But you still haven't outlined any specific measures, just a generalised bit it rhetoric. What specific measures are we talking about here? Lockdown? Economic shutdown? For how long? How do we keep shelves stocked? Will the government send around the ration van? What are you specifically saying needs to be done?
Oh, for God's sake I don't believe you're really such a fool that you can't understand plain English.
Don't waste my time.
To prevent more time wasting, assume that all are in DISAGREE.
I've waited 18 months for NHS care. Annoying, but a balance had to be struck across financial resources and the life of the country outside of healthcare.
Much has been made of mental health, for example. There is no health-cost free option during a pandemic.
Interestingly, suicides fell quite substantially last year.
The position in the conservative party is surreal from my point of view as I want to see Boris replaced, but not with someone who sides with the rebels who I disagree with so then I have to take Boris's side and just cannot start to understand why the rebels could not foresee that yesterday's proposals were not only proportionate, but also has the full support of the vast majority of the public
I expect tonight's press conference will be very worrying for ordinary voters and will highlight just how politically naive those 126 noes were yesteday including the lib dems and greens
Have you seen whan the SA doctor said in July about Covid (Delta) and what she says now.(Omicron)
Unless we are a different breed than South Africans Omicron has much milder effects than Delta.
She is a Doctor, she has experienced both waves, she knows what she is talking about.
She is one opinion and not from our own scientists actually dealing with it here in the UK
In July she gave an interview about how terrible the Delta wave was with descriptions of the patients she was seeing.
Now she has described the current patients she is seeing with Omicron.
These are not opinions. These are real world happenings.
She is from Gauteng which was the start of Omicron, in fact she discovered it.
Cases are now dropping there and the nature of the patients she is seeing have not changed.
Please tell me how these facts are opinions?
It is upto our scientists to recommend to our government action needed not for us to delegate it to South Africa's medics
Chris Whitty has put a health warning on South Africa evidence live just now
I think they are concerned that a "it's not as bad" narrative may hamper booster take-up.
Exactly this. If so, then fair play to them. I'd probably do the same. Under-promise and over-deliver. So long as it remains all about boosters, not lockdowns or "circuit breakers" aka ways of delaying the infection surge until vulnerable people's immunity has waned a bit more.
78,610 cases......I presume 100k will be breeched by end of the week.
The usual suspects will be ramping up the pressure to cancel Christmas.
Well, what do you think?
No further restrictions needed? Everything going fine?
What would you do? You have been asked this repeatedly but if you have answered I must have missed it.
Tell us what restrictions you favour.
As I said and you were apparently unable to understand (or perhaps read), whatever it takes to try to prevent the NHS collapsing and people dying without medical care.
Are you saying that we shouldn't try to prevent the NHS collapsing? By implication that seems to be the opinion of many here.
OK we're getting there. So no one is allowed to die of Covid. Is that what you're after? How would you achieve that.
The tortuous way this troll avoids a) saying what he would do and/or b) putting his money where his very big sanctimonious mouth is is truly breathtaking.
Is @Chris a troll? The vast majority of the public would agree with him and disagree with you?
Agree with what? It's impossible to get him to explain his position.
Frankly, the fact that you people keep saying that is simply an admission of your fundamental dishonesty.
How can I make it any clearer? WE MUST DO WHATEVER IT TAKES TO PREVENT THE NHS COLLAPSING AND BEING UNABLE TO GIVE PEOPLE MEDICAL CARE
It's a simple, fundamental political choice. If people disagree, they should have the honesty to say so. The fact that they have so much difficulty in doing so speaks volumes.
What if that causes hardship to people in other ways?
I am sure Chris is of the mindset that would be satisfied if the NHS was saved but millions of kids lost their educational chances, thousands died from mental disorders, suicide and depression and businesses were decimated, all because of Government action to counter covid. None of that matters to him as long as the NHS is saved.
The operation was a success even though the patient died.
The position in the conservative party is surreal from my point of view as I want to see Boris replaced, but not with someone who sides with the rebels who I disagree with so then I have to take Boris's side and just cannot start to understand why the rebels could not foresee that yesterday's proposals were not only proportionate, but also has the full support of the vast majority of the public
I expect tonight's press conference will be very worrying for ordinary voters and will highlight just how politically naive those 126 noes were yesteday including the lib dems and greens
Have you seen whan the SA doctor said in July about Covid (Delta) and what she says now.(Omicron)
Unless we are a different breed than South Africans Omicron has much milder effects than Delta.
She is a Doctor, she has experienced both waves, she knows what she is talking about.
Don't get Witty's point about Omicron mildness being due to widespread prior immunity. Given the UK has 90% of over 16s vaccinated and has had a significant Delta wave, surely we are in a similar position?
Of course we are, its nonsense to not think that we will have a similar experience to SA.
The median age of SA is 27, Median age of the UK is 40. Yes I know SA has a lot of HIV and AIDS, but just as big of a factor is age when it comes to Covid outcomes.
In fairness – and yet again! – the South Africans are comparing SA (Omicron) with SA (Delta) they are NOT comparing with far-flung foreign lands with entirely different demographics.
@MikeSmithson – any chance of pinning this post as we seem to have to repeat it every couple of hours?
Mrs J's lung issues have emerged again in a minor way this week, after two years. We don't think it's Covid: the symptoms are the same as before, and she's tested negative on LFT every day.
I really don't want her to get this bu**er.
We're booked in for our boosters tomorrow morning; when the little 'un finishes school, we'll be hunkering down for a bit...
78,610 cases......I presume 100k will be breeched by end of the week.
The usual suspects will be ramping up the pressure to cancel Christmas.
Well, what do you think?
No further restrictions needed? Everything going fine?
What would you do? You have been asked this repeatedly but if you have answered I must have missed it.
Tell us what restrictions you favour.
As I said and you were apparently unable to understand (or perhaps read), whatever it takes to try to prevent the NHS collapsing and people dying without medical care.
Are you saying that we shouldn't try to prevent the NHS collapsing? By implication that seems to be the opinion of many here.
OK we're getting there. So no one is allowed to die of Covid. Is that what you're after? How would you achieve that.
The tortuous way this troll avoids a) saying what he would do and/or b) putting his money where his very big sanctimonious mouth is is truly breathtaking.
Is @Chris a troll? The vast majority of the public would agree with him and disagree with you?
Agree with what? It's impossible to get him to explain his position.
Frankly, the fact that you people keep saying that is simply an admission of your fundamental dishonesty.
How can I make it any clearer? WE MUST DO WHATEVER IT TAKES TO PREVENT THE NHS COLLAPSING AND BEING UNABLE TO GIVE PEOPLE MEDICAL CARE
It's a simple, fundamental political choice. If people disagree, they should have the honesty to say so. The fact that they have so much difficulty in doing so speaks volumes.
But you still haven't outlined any specific measures, just a generalised bit it rhetoric. What specific measures are we talking about here? Lockdown? Economic shutdown? For how long? How do we keep shelves stocked? Will the government send around the ration van? What are you specifically saying needs to be done?
Oh, for God's sake I don't believe you're really such a fool that you can't understand plain English.
Don't waste my time.
To prevent more time wasting, assume that all are in DISAGREE.
I've waited 18 months for NHS care. Annoying, but a balance had to be struck across financial resources and the life of the country outside of healthcare.
Much has been made of mental health, for example. There is no health-cost free option during a pandemic.
Interestingly, suicides fell quite substantially last year.
I noticed that. Its weirdly counter intuitive.
It makes some sense. E.g. fewer opportunities during lockdown due to other people being around.
But we are all supposed to be isolated, depressed, missing human company, drinking far too much at home, falling out with our spouses having seen more of them than we can cope with, suffered financial anxiety, not been getting prompt medical attention for anything other than Covid etc etc etc.
It shows the danger of just assuming or using common sense. I have heard the dangers to mental health, for example, mentioned countless times on the media and elsewhere. Its just not showing up in the figures.
Reading some of the comments on here, there really is ludicrous absolutism going on. Nobody is proposing lockdown forever, the end of education, the closing of business. At the same time, whilst I respect the people who don't want more restrictions I don't think any of them advocate going out regardless of if you have Covid or not to try and kill people.
This would be significantly less shit if we stopped hurling moron, troll, fuck you etc at each other.
Don't get Witty's point about Omicron mildness being due to widespread prior immunity. Given the UK has 90% of over 16s vaccinated and has had a significant Delta wave, surely we are in a similar position?
Of course we are, its nonsense to not think that we will have a similar experience to SA.
The median age of SA is 27, Median age of the UK is 40. Yes I know SA has a lot of HIV and AIDS, but just as big of a factor is age when it comes to Covid outcomes.
That is correct but look at what happened in SA during the Delta wave to what is happening now.
That is the point, the SA doctors are comparing like for like, not different countries.
Reading some of the comments on here, there really is ludicrous absolutism going on. Nobody is proposing lockdown forever, the end of education, the closing of business. At the same time, whilst I respect the people who don't want more restrictions I don't think any of them advocate going out regardless of if you have Covid or not to try and kill people.
This would be significantly less shit if we stopped hurling moron, troll, fuck you etc at each other.
Don't get Witty's point about Omicron mildness being due to widespread prior immunity. Given the UK has 90% of over 16s vaccinated and has had a significant Delta wave, surely we are in a similar position?
Of course we are, its nonsense to not think that we will have a similar experience to SA.
The median age of SA is 27, Median age of the UK is 40. Yes I know SA has a lot of HIV and AIDS, but just as big of a factor is age when it comes to Covid outcomes.
In fairness – and yet again! – the South Africans are comparing SA (Omicron) with SA (Delta) they are NOT comparing with far-flung foreign lands with entirely different demographics.
@MikeSmithson – any chance of pinning this post as we seem to have to repeat it every couple of hours?
And that's a fairish point but not an absolute killer. There is no reason in principle why the virus shouldn't have evolved in a direction which makes it relatively more hostile to us than to them.
I have turned off the dickhead questions....are any of the grown-ups asking sensible questions for instance about the supply of anti-virals? Witty mentioned them, but no details.....how many does the UK have, how many will we get over the next few weeks? How will they be delivered to the vulnerable, because to be effective they need to get them the same day as they get symptoms.
Don't get Witty's point about Omicron mildness being due to widespread prior immunity. Given the UK has 90% of over 16s vaccinated and has had a significant Delta wave, surely we are in a similar position?
Of course we are, its nonsense to not think that we will have a similar experience to SA.
The median age of SA is 27, Median age of the UK is 40. Yes I know SA has a lot of HIV and AIDS, but just as big of a factor is age when it comes to Covid outcomes.
They’re marginally more obese than us too.
In their favour, they had higher excess death in the last year than us. And if there’s causation in the data shown in the study on chromosome 3, their racial demographics are an advantage too:
But none of that gets away from comparing South Africa in this wave vs South Africa in past waves. The data is now fairly mature in Gauteng and it shows a drastic fall in proportion of patients needing oxygen treatment. And this rings true with the ex vivo study someone posted earlier:
As far as I can see, the only thing of relevance at this point that might cause us trouble is if 2 doses of a vaccine (x months old) give substantially poorer protection against serious illness than infection by delta within the last year.
The position in the conservative party is surreal from my point of view as I want to see Boris replaced, but not with someone who sides with the rebels who I disagree with so then I have to take Boris's side and just cannot start to understand why the rebels could not foresee that yesterday's proposals were not only proportionate, but also has the full support of the vast majority of the public
I expect tonight's press conference will be very worrying for ordinary voters and will highlight just how politically naive those 126 noes were yesteday including the lib dems and greens
Have you seen whan the SA doctor said in July about Covid (Delta) and what she says now.(Omicron)
Unless we are a different breed than South Africans Omicron has much milder effects than Delta.
She is a Doctor, she has experienced both waves, she knows what she is talking about.
We are in a different hemisphere to SA though.
Good point. The Covid particles circulate clockwise through the air here.
Mrs J's lung issues have emerged again in a minor way this week, after two years. We don't think it's Covid: the symptoms are the same as before, and she's tested negative on LFT every day.
I really don't want her to get this bu**er.
We're booked in for our boosters tomorrow morning; when the little 'un finishes school, we'll be hunkering down for a bit...
If you can get FFP3 masks before your boosters, consider it. You'll be spending at least 10 minutes in a room with multiple others in there. You don't want to catch it mere days before your booster becomes effective, that would be so frustrating. Good luck.
Don't get Witty's point about Omicron mildness being due to widespread prior immunity. Given the UK has 90% of over 16s vaccinated and has had a significant Delta wave, surely we are in a similar position?
Of course we are, its nonsense to not think that we will have a similar experience to SA.
The median age of SA is 27, Median age of the UK is 40. Yes I know SA has a lot of HIV and AIDS, but just as big of a factor is age when it comes to Covid outcomes.
In fairness – and yet again! – the South Africans are comparing SA (Omicron) with SA (Delta) they are NOT comparing with far-flung foreign lands with entirely different demographics.
@MikeSmithson – any chance of pinning this post as we seem to have to repeat it every couple of hours?
And that's a fairish point but not an absolute killer. There is no reason in principle why the virus shouldn't have evolved in a direction which makes it relatively more hostile to us than to them.
78,610 cases......I presume 100k will be breeched by end of the week.
The usual suspects will be ramping up the pressure to cancel Christmas.
Well, what do you think?
No further restrictions needed? Everything going fine?
What would you do? You have been asked this repeatedly but if you have answered I must have missed it.
Tell us what restrictions you favour.
As I said and you were apparently unable to understand (or perhaps read), whatever it takes to try to prevent the NHS collapsing and people dying without medical care.
Are you saying that we shouldn't try to prevent the NHS collapsing? By implication that seems to be the opinion of many here.
OK we're getting there. So no one is allowed to die of Covid. Is that what you're after? How would you achieve that.
The tortuous way this troll avoids a) saying what he would do and/or b) putting his money where his very big sanctimonious mouth is is truly breathtaking.
Is @Chris a troll? The vast majority of the public would agree with him and disagree with you?
Agree with what? It's impossible to get him to explain his position.
Frankly, the fact that you people keep saying that is simply an admission of your fundamental dishonesty.
How can I make it any clearer? WE MUST DO WHATEVER IT TAKES TO PREVENT THE NHS COLLAPSING AND BEING UNABLE TO GIVE PEOPLE MEDICAL CARE
It's a simple, fundamental political choice. If people disagree, they should have the honesty to say so. The fact that they have so much difficulty in doing so speaks volumes.
What if that causes hardship to people in other ways?
I am sure Chris is of the mindset that would be satisfied if the NHS was saved but millions of kids lost their educational chances, thousands died from mental disorders, suicide and depression and businesses were decimated, all because of Government action to counter covid. None of that matters to him as long as the NHS is saved.
The operation was a success even though the patient died.
Yes, and of course I could invent any number of ridiculous things and say I was sure you believed them all, so you would be a contemptible person and I would win the argument and so on and so forth.
Frankly I'm left with the impression a lot of people here have no comprehension of what is about to happen.
Mrs J's lung issues have emerged again in a minor way this week, after two years. We don't think it's Covid: the symptoms are the same as before, and she's tested negative on LFT every day.
I really don't want her to get this bu**er.
We're booked in for our boosters tomorrow morning; when the little 'un finishes school, we'll be hunkering down for a bit...
Doesn't help if it's difficult to see a GP, either, does it? All the very best to you both.
Reading some of the comments on here, there really is ludicrous absolutism going on. Nobody is proposing lockdown forever, the end of education, the closing of business. At the same time, whilst I respect the people who don't want more restrictions I don't think any of them advocate going out regardless of if you have Covid or not to try and kill people.
This would be significantly less shit if we stopped hurling moron, troll, fuck you etc at each other.
People will die and businesses will collapse because of the measures the Government has taken over the last few weeks. Now we can argue about how many of those and how that compares with likely Covid deaths but the position of someone like Chris with his attitude of all that matters is saving the NHS is, frankly, fucking stupid. It is an absolutist position which deserves to be scorned by all reasonable people. Actions have consequences and too many of the Covid freaks (people freaking over Covid) are trying to pretend this is not the case.
Mrs J's lung issues have emerged again in a minor way this week, after two years. We don't think it's Covid: the symptoms are the same as before, and she's tested negative on LFT every day.
I really don't want her to get this bu**er.
We're booked in for our boosters tomorrow morning; when the little 'un finishes school, we'll be hunkering down for a bit...
Excellent idea until your boosters are fully operational. Best wishes to you both, your wife especially.
Did Witty really just bat away South Africa’s experience of low hospitalisations as being irrelevant on the basis that they had really good immunity from prior waves?
No - he gave a responsible comment about the evidence from South Africa and why we need to be cautious
It rather depends on whether you think we should run things based on the best available evidence or take the most extreme interpretation just in case. Let us not forget, the PM has basically told GPs to do little else but give boosters. This has consequences and the upside is questionable, given we are already through the most vulnerable groups.
From your perspective. Now try and put yourself on the opposite side of the table and consider what may be their perspective.
The issue is that your definition of "most vulnerable groups" isn't the same as theirs. This is no longer about stopping the elderly dropping en masse. This is stopping so many people getting infected across the age range that even if its a low percentage getting really sick its still a lot in actual patient numbers.
The position in the conservative party is surreal from my point of view as I want to see Boris replaced, but not with someone who sides with the rebels who I disagree with so then I have to take Boris's side and just cannot start to understand why the rebels could not foresee that yesterday's proposals were not only proportionate, but also has the full support of the vast majority of the public
I expect tonight's press conference will be very worrying for ordinary voters and will highlight just how politically naive those 126 noes were yesteday including the lib dems and greens
Have you seen whan the SA doctor said in July about Covid (Delta) and what she says now.(Omicron)
Unless we are a different breed than South Africans Omicron has much milder effects than Delta.
She is a Doctor, she has experienced both waves, she knows what she is talking about.
We are in a different hemisphere to SA though.
Good point. The Covid particles circulate clockwise through the air here.
The South African accent is quite phlegmy, with a lot of excess spit etc.
Reading some of the comments on here, there really is ludicrous absolutism going on. Nobody is proposing lockdown forever, the end of education, the closing of business. At the same time, whilst I respect the people who don't want more restrictions I don't think any of them advocate going out regardless of if you have Covid or not to try and kill people.
This would be significantly less shit if we stopped hurling moron, troll, fuck you etc at each other.
Yep, we never used to get that sort of language on here at all. It is not an improvement. Guido is still available, I believe.
Reading some of the comments on here, there really is ludicrous absolutism going on. Nobody is proposing lockdown forever, the end of education, the closing of business. At the same time, whilst I respect the people who don't want more restrictions I don't think any of them advocate going out regardless of if you have Covid or not to try and kill people.
This would be significantly less shit if we stopped hurling moron, troll, fuck you etc at each other.
Indeed.
If people feel the need to use that sort of language:
1) It doesn't suggest they have a very strong argument
2) It doesn't suggest calm, rational, balanced thinking
3) It does suggest hysteria
And people will judge the point being made accordingly.
If you have a decent point to make you should be able to do it in a calm way.
78,610 cases......I presume 100k will be breeched by end of the week.
The usual suspects will be ramping up the pressure to cancel Christmas.
Well, what do you think?
No further restrictions needed? Everything going fine?
What would you do? You have been asked this repeatedly but if you have answered I must have missed it.
Tell us what restrictions you favour.
As I said and you were apparently unable to understand (or perhaps read), whatever it takes to try to prevent the NHS collapsing and people dying without medical care.
Are you saying that we shouldn't try to prevent the NHS collapsing? By implication that seems to be the opinion of many here.
OK we're getting there. So no one is allowed to die of Covid. Is that what you're after? How would you achieve that.
The tortuous way this troll avoids a) saying what he would do and/or b) putting his money where his very big sanctimonious mouth is is truly breathtaking.
Is @Chris a troll? The vast majority of the public would agree with him and disagree with you?
Agree with what? It's impossible to get him to explain his position.
Frankly, the fact that you people keep saying that is simply an admission of your fundamental dishonesty.
How can I make it any clearer? WE MUST DO WHATEVER IT TAKES TO PREVENT THE NHS COLLAPSING AND BEING UNABLE TO GIVE PEOPLE MEDICAL CARE
It's a simple, fundamental political choice. If people disagree, they should have the honesty to say so. The fact that they have so much difficulty in doing so speaks volumes.
What if that causes hardship to people in other ways?
I am sure Chris is of the mindset that would be satisfied if the NHS was saved but millions of kids lost their educational chances, thousands died from mental disorders, suicide and depression and businesses were decimated, all because of Government action to counter covid. None of that matters to him as long as the NHS is saved.
The operation was a success even though the patient died.
Yes, and of course I could invent any number of ridiculous things and say I was sure you believed them all, so you would be a contemptible person and I would win the argument and so on and so forth.
Frankly I'm left with the impression a lot of people here have no comprehension of what is about to happen.
Well first off no one knows what's about to happen. All we have asked you is what would your plan be to address what you think is about to happen.
Spoke to three people on work calls this week so far who say “yeah I have covid right now, feel alright. Scratchy throat. Will have some time off next week anyway”.
You do understand that even without vaccination 99% survive COVID-19? You do realise how meaningless "spoke to three people and they were OK" is?
"even without vaccination 99% survive COVID-19"
Is that true? There are a fair number of countries where more than 1% of people have died of Covid, and they certainly didn't get 100% of people infected.
The death rate is about 1% with Western health systems not overwhelmed, but also relates to the age structure.
78,610 cases......I presume 100k will be breeched by end of the week.
The usual suspects will be ramping up the pressure to cancel Christmas.
Well, what do you think?
No further restrictions needed? Everything going fine?
What would you do? You have been asked this repeatedly but if you have answered I must have missed it.
Tell us what restrictions you favour.
As I said and you were apparently unable to understand (or perhaps read), whatever it takes to try to prevent the NHS collapsing and people dying without medical care.
Are you saying that we shouldn't try to prevent the NHS collapsing? By implication that seems to be the opinion of many here.
OK we're getting there. So no one is allowed to die of Covid. Is that what you're after? How would you achieve that.
The tortuous way this troll avoids a) saying what he would do and/or b) putting his money where his very big sanctimonious mouth is is truly breathtaking.
Is @Chris a troll? The vast majority of the public would agree with him and disagree with you?
Agree with what? It's impossible to get him to explain his position.
Frankly, the fact that you people keep saying that is simply an admission of your fundamental dishonesty.
How can I make it any clearer? WE MUST DO WHATEVER IT TAKES TO PREVENT THE NHS COLLAPSING AND BEING UNABLE TO GIVE PEOPLE MEDICAL CARE
It's a simple, fundamental political choice. If people disagree, they should have the honesty to say so. The fact that they have so much difficulty in doing so speaks volumes.
What if that causes hardship to people in other ways?
I am sure Chris is of the mindset that would be satisfied if the NHS was saved but millions of kids lost their educational chances, thousands died from mental disorders, suicide and depression and businesses were decimated, all because of Government action to counter covid. None of that matters to him as long as the NHS is saved.
The operation was a success even though the patient died.
Yes, and of course I could invent any number of ridiculous things and say I was sure you believed them all, so you would be a contemptible person and I would win the argument and so on and so forth.
Frankly I'm left with the impression a lot of people here have no comprehension of what is about to happen.
Just to remind you that you already gave this warning when Delta appeared and we had this same argument then. And guess what - you were wrong. This is why no one should take you seriously.
Mrs J's lung issues have emerged again in a minor way this week, after two years. We don't think it's Covid: the symptoms are the same as before, and she's tested negative on LFT every day.
I really don't want her to get this bu**er.
We're booked in for our boosters tomorrow morning; when the little 'un finishes school, we'll be hunkering down for a bit...
If you can get FFP3 masks before your boosters, consider it. You'll be spending at least 10 minutes in a room with multiple others in there. You don't want to catch it mere days before your booster becomes effective, that would be so frustrating. Good luck.
Thanks. We've been on that since the beginning of this sh*te. We use whichever mask type we believe fits the situation.
It's an odd feeling: I know she's otherwise fit and hearty, but then again, a few years back I saw her cough up a significant amount of blood, for reasons still not fully determined. She was given an asthma inhaler, and she hasn't had to use it for over a year before this week.
To those who say only the old and sick die of Covid: I say fu** off you **** little small-****** **************'s.
Did Witty really just bat away South Africa’s experience of low hospitalisations as being irrelevant on the basis that they had really good immunity from prior waves?
No - he gave a responsible comment about the evidence from South Africa and why we need to be cautious
It rather depends on whether you think we should run things based on the best available evidence or take the most extreme interpretation just in case. Let us not forget, the PM has basically told GPs to do little else but give boosters. This has consequences and the upside is questionable, given we are already through the most vulnerable groups.
From your perspective. Now try and put yourself on the opposite side of the table and consider what may be their perspective.
The issue is that your definition of "most vulnerable groups" isn't the same as theirs. This is no longer about stopping the elderly dropping en masse. This is stopping so many people getting infected across the age range that even if its a low percentage getting really sick its still a lot in actual patient numbers.
Would I rather someone with a lump is seen than a healthy 19 year receiving a third Pfizer jab? Well yes. There are opportunity costs to this roll out.
78,610 cases......I presume 100k will be breeched by end of the week.
The usual suspects will be ramping up the pressure to cancel Christmas.
Well, what do you think?
No further restrictions needed? Everything going fine?
What would you do? You have been asked this repeatedly but if you have answered I must have missed it.
Tell us what restrictions you favour.
As I said and you were apparently unable to understand (or perhaps read), whatever it takes to try to prevent the NHS collapsing and people dying without medical care.
Are you saying that we shouldn't try to prevent the NHS collapsing? By implication that seems to be the opinion of many here.
OK we're getting there. So no one is allowed to die of Covid. Is that what you're after? How would you achieve that.
The tortuous way this troll avoids a) saying what he would do and/or b) putting his money where his very big sanctimonious mouth is is truly breathtaking.
Is @Chris a troll? The vast majority of the public would agree with him and disagree with you?
Agree with what? It's impossible to get him to explain his position.
Frankly, the fact that you people keep saying that is simply an admission of your fundamental dishonesty.
How can I make it any clearer? WE MUST DO WHATEVER IT TAKES TO PREVENT THE NHS COLLAPSING AND BEING UNABLE TO GIVE PEOPLE MEDICAL CARE
It's a simple, fundamental political choice. If people disagree, they should have the honesty to say so. The fact that they have so much difficulty in doing so speaks volumes.
What if that causes hardship to people in other ways?
I am sure Chris is of the mindset that would be satisfied if the NHS was saved but millions of kids lost their educational chances, thousands died from mental disorders, suicide and depression and businesses were decimated, all because of Government action to counter covid. None of that matters to him as long as the NHS is saved.
The operation was a success even though the patient died.
Yes, and of course I could invent any number of ridiculous things and say I was sure you believed them all, so you would be a contemptible person and I would win the argument and so on and so forth.
Frankly I'm left with the impression a lot of people here have no comprehension of what is about to happen.
It is almost like the future of a disease that has been known about for just three weeks has a degree of uncertainty attached.
Can Bozo squeeze in another press briefing before tomorrow’s by-election ?
Omicron looks like it’s saved the clown .
Are you assuming all this is a positive for Boris? If anything this would make me more inclined to go and vote Lib Dem (who, I note, all voted against Plan B ).
So in SA in Guateng it looks like hospital admissions went +200%, +100%, +50% on a weekly basis. Other regions have done the first 200%, will be interesting to see fi they follow the patttern.
Current week is incomplete and I haven't worked out the likely figure just yet, could well be ending up flat. That's a liveable with explosion as long as the fall is reasonably fast given the low ration of ICU patients in that.
so for us
week 0 - 800 admissions a day week 1 2400 admissions a day (+200%) Week 2 4800 admissions a day (+100%) week 3 7200 admissions a day (+50%)
I'm not sure when the NHS collapses but those weeks 2 and 3 look scary.
Reading some of the comments on here, there really is ludicrous absolutism going on. Nobody is proposing lockdown forever, the end of education, the closing of business. At the same time, whilst I respect the people who don't want more restrictions I don't think any of them advocate going out regardless of if you have Covid or not to try and kill people.
This would be significantly less shit if we stopped hurling moron, troll, fuck you etc at each other.
People will die and businesses will collapse because of the measures the Government has taken over he last few weeks. Now we can argue about how many of those and how that compares with likely Covid deaths but the position of someone like Chris with his attitude of all that matters is saving the NHS is, frankly, fucking stupid. It is an absolutist position which deserves to be scorned by all reasonable people. Actions have consequences and too many of the Covid freaks (people freaking over Covid) are trying to pretend this is not the case.
OK, I hear you. People have gone out and cancelled Christmas parties etc and that has a big impact on hospitality. But what we're now seeing is people cancelling because they are sick. Or because their own at home are sick. I was an early adopter of such things, losing a night out in Stockton 2 weekends back then one in London last weekend.
Its happening now anyway whether they pull a lockdown or not. Chunks of the economy will shut themselves down as waves of sickness impact its ability to function.
What the government should be doing is reinstating support for people and businesses. Not planning for a long term effort - Omicron looks like it will burn fiercely then burn itself out. It just happens to be hitting us at the worst possible time for industries like hospitality.
Reading some of the comments on here, there really is ludicrous absolutism going on. Nobody is proposing lockdown forever, the end of education, the closing of business. At the same time, whilst I respect the people who don't want more restrictions I don't think any of them advocate going out regardless of if you have Covid or not to try and kill people.
This would be significantly less shit if we stopped hurling moron, troll, fuck you etc at each other.
Indeed.
If people feel the need to use that sort of language:
1) It doesn't suggest they have a very strong argument
2) It doesn't suggest calm, rational, balanced thinking
3) It does suggest hysteria
And people will judge the point being made accordingly.
If you have a decent point to make you should be able to do it in a calm way.
On the other hand, this can be quite personal for some people. It is not an abstract threat.
Did Witty really just bat away South Africa’s experience of low hospitalisations as being irrelevant on the basis that they had really good immunity from prior waves?
No - he gave a responsible comment about the evidence from South Africa and why we need to be cautious
It rather depends on whether you think we should run things based on the best available evidence or take the most extreme interpretation just in case. Let us not forget, the PM has basically told GPs to do little else but give boosters. This has consequences and the upside is questionable, given we are already through the most vulnerable groups.
From your perspective. Now try and put yourself on the opposite side of the table and consider what may be their perspective.
The issue is that your definition of "most vulnerable groups" isn't the same as theirs. This is no longer about stopping the elderly dropping en masse. This is stopping so many people getting infected across the age range that even if its a low percentage getting really sick its still a lot in actual patient numbers.
Would I rather someone with a lump is seen than a healthy 19 year receiving a third Pfizer jab? Well yes. There are opportunity costs to this roll out.
Only because we are using NHS staff to jab patients which is something most people could do with a day or so training.
Reading some of the comments on here, there really is ludicrous absolutism going on. Nobody is proposing lockdown forever, the end of education, the closing of business. At the same time, whilst I respect the people who don't want more restrictions I don't think any of them advocate going out regardless of if you have Covid or not to try and kill people.
This would be significantly less shit if we stopped hurling moron, troll, fuck you etc at each other.
Indeed.
If people feel the need to use that sort of language:
1) It doesn't suggest they have a very strong argument
2) It doesn't suggest calm, rational, balanced thinking
3) It does suggest hysteria
And people will judge the point being made accordingly.
If you have a decent point to make you should be able to do it in a calm way.
What a LOAD of bollox.
(This is obviously tongue in cheek, but best clarify for the avoidance of doubt)
78,610 cases......I presume 100k will be breeched by end of the week.
The usual suspects will be ramping up the pressure to cancel Christmas.
Well, what do you think?
No further restrictions needed? Everything going fine?
What would you do? You have been asked this repeatedly but if you have answered I must have missed it.
Tell us what restrictions you favour.
As I said and you were apparently unable to understand (or perhaps read), whatever it takes to try to prevent the NHS collapsing and people dying without medical care.
Are you saying that we shouldn't try to prevent the NHS collapsing? By implication that seems to be the opinion of many here.
OK we're getting there. So no one is allowed to die of Covid. Is that what you're after? How would you achieve that.
The tortuous way this troll avoids a) saying what he would do and/or b) putting his money where his very big sanctimonious mouth is is truly breathtaking.
Is @Chris a troll? The vast majority of the public would agree with him and disagree with you?
Agree with what? It's impossible to get him to explain his position.
Frankly, the fact that you people keep saying that is simply an admission of your fundamental dishonesty.
How can I make it any clearer? WE MUST DO WHATEVER IT TAKES TO PREVENT THE NHS COLLAPSING AND BEING UNABLE TO GIVE PEOPLE MEDICAL CARE
It's a simple, fundamental political choice. If people disagree, they should have the honesty to say so. The fact that they have so much difficulty in doing so speaks volumes.
But you still haven't outlined any specific measures, just a generalised bit it rhetoric. What specific measures are we talking about here? Lockdown? Economic shutdown? For how long? How do we keep shelves stocked? Will the government send around the ration van? What are you specifically saying needs to be done?
Oh, for God's sake I don't believe you're really such a fool that you can't understand plain English.
Don't waste my time.
You're wasting ours.
I've made it clear I would have zero restrictions whatsoever. But you seem to be being coy about what specific measures you think are what it will take.
If you're in charge what are the "whatever it takes" measures specifically?
Didn't watch Boris, but my sense is nothing has happened.
Just free advertising for him with a by-election due?
I think they had to do a press conference with the record figure of positive test results reported today, and they've focused on encouraging people to be boostered. That's fair enough really.
Timing is pretty fortunate for the by-election tomorrow, unless all the non-postal voting Tory oldies are scared away from the polling stations.
Can Bozo squeeze in another press briefing before tomorrow’s by-election ?
Omicron looks like it’s saved the clown .
Are you assuming all this is a positive for Boris? If anything this would make me more inclined to go and vote Lib Dem (who, I note, all voted against Plan B ).
Yes but rightly or wrongly outside of pb.com there are far more in favour of restrictions than against them, so yes him playing a cautious PM listening to Whitty is good for him.
Eesh. If it deflagrates like this, maybe we can hope it turns sooner rather than later?
I had a botched delivery today where my parcel was delivered to my neighbour so I had to knock on their door. I had to talk with someone in person. I hate that. Also, it increases covid risk.
Reading some of the comments on here, there really is ludicrous absolutism going on. Nobody is proposing lockdown forever, the end of education, the closing of business. At the same time, whilst I respect the people who don't want more restrictions I don't think any of them advocate going out regardless of if you have Covid or not to try and kill people.
This would be significantly less shit if we stopped hurling moron, troll, fuck you etc at each other.
I diagnose a collective loss of rationality brought on by the sudden advent of the Omicron variant. We were cruising out of the pandemic - the end almost in sight - and oh ffs now this. Now we might not be so near the end. Covid's back at the top of the agenda, talk of restrictions again, testing, jabs, cancelled plans, 'be careful', 'stay safe', another Christmas maybe ruined, and this cruel twist - if such it proves - has happened very fast. It's a blow to the psyche, thus it's hard to stay on the level.
So in SA in Guateng it looks like hospital admissions went +200%, +100%, +50% on a weekly basis. Other regions have done the first 200%, will be interesting to see fi they follow the patttern.
Current week is incomplete and I haven't worked out the likely figure just yet, could well be ending up flat. That's a liveable with explosion as long as the fall is reasonably fast given the low ration of ICU patients in that.
so for us
week 0 - 800 admissions a day week 1 2400 admissions a day (+200%) Week 2 4800 admissions a day (+100%) week 3 7200 admissions a day (+50%)
I'm not sure when the NHS collapses but those weeks 2 and 3 look scary.
SA had virtually zero hospitalisations before the latest wave started though, so they were starting from a much lower base.
In the past week: positives up 19% Testing up 15%.
Is there a degree to which we are picking up lots more cases at the moment due to lots more testing - not least as people LFT before every encounter (presumably this is a massive underestimate - who bothers recording a negative LFT?)
Going into Year 2 there was a narrative. We would get vaccinated and restrictions would end. Going into Year 3 it looks pretty certain that nothing has changed. There is always a medical reasons for restrictions with this thing, and we will still be in restrictions in Year 13 and Year 23.
So in SA in Guateng it looks like hospital admissions went +200%, +100%, +50% on a weekly basis. Other regions have done the first 200%, will be interesting to see fi they follow the patttern.
Current week is incomplete and I haven't worked out the likely figure just yet, could well be ending up flat. That's a liveable with explosion as long as the fall is reasonably fast given the low ration of ICU patients in that.
so for us
week 0 - 800 admissions a day week 1 2400 admissions a day (+200%) Week 2 4800 admissions a day (+100%) week 3 7200 admissions a day (+50%)
I'm not sure when the NHS collapses but those weeks 2 and 3 look scary.
SA had virtually zero hospitalisations before the latest wave started though, so they were starting from a much lower base.
Can Bozo squeeze in another press briefing before tomorrow’s by-election ?
Omicron looks like it’s saved the clown .
Are you assuming all this is a positive for Boris? If anything this would make me more inclined to go and vote Lib Dem (who, I note, all voted against Plan B ).
That's really interesting. Noted.
There were also a remarkable amount of abstentions among the Labour higher-ups. Including PB crushes Bridget, Rachel and Rosena. I realise Rachel is unwell, but why so many? Was it a pairing thing? Or some other reason?
78,610 cases......I presume 100k will be breeched by end of the week.
The usual suspects will be ramping up the pressure to cancel Christmas.
Well, what do you think?
No further restrictions needed? Everything going fine?
What would you do? You have been asked this repeatedly but if you have answered I must have missed it.
Tell us what restrictions you favour.
As I said and you were apparently unable to understand (or perhaps read), whatever it takes to try to prevent the NHS collapsing and people dying without medical care.
Are you saying that we shouldn't try to prevent the NHS collapsing? By implication that seems to be the opinion of many here.
OK we're getting there. So no one is allowed to die of Covid. Is that what you're after? How would you achieve that.
The tortuous way this troll avoids a) saying what he would do and/or b) putting his money where his very big sanctimonious mouth is is truly breathtaking.
Is @Chris a troll? The vast majority of the public would agree with him and disagree with you?
Agree with what? It's impossible to get him to explain his position.
Frankly, the fact that you people keep saying that is simply an admission of your fundamental dishonesty.
How can I make it any clearer? WE MUST DO WHATEVER IT TAKES TO PREVENT THE NHS COLLAPSING AND BEING UNABLE TO GIVE PEOPLE MEDICAL CARE
It's a simple, fundamental political choice. If people disagree, they should have the honesty to say so. The fact that they have so much difficulty in doing so speaks volumes.
What if that causes hardship to people in other ways?
I am sure Chris is of the mindset that would be satisfied if the NHS was saved but millions of kids lost their educational chances, thousands died from mental disorders, suicide and depression and businesses were decimated, all because of Government action to counter covid. None of that matters to him as long as the NHS is saved.
The operation was a success even though the patient died.
On NHS admissions stats or predictions - when it is said 2000 a day hospital admissions it sounds a lot but the UK is big and putting it in perspective where most on here will instinctively understand that equates to less than 4 people per parliamentary constituency . Now think of your constituency , is 4 people a day being admitted to hospital in it really that frightening or seemingly overwhelming? To me it isn't
Mrs J's lung issues have emerged again in a minor way this week, after two years. We don't think it's Covid: the symptoms are the same as before, and she's tested negative on LFT every day.
I really don't want her to get this bu**er.
We're booked in for our boosters tomorrow morning; when the little 'un finishes school, we'll be hunkering down for a bit...
Doesn't help if it's difficult to see a GP, either, does it? All the very best to you both.
Thanks. In our case, the GP (as I've mentioned passim) is very, very poor.
At the beginning of the crisis, we asked if she could be put on the vulnerable list. They said no, despite her having coughed up half a litre (*) or so of blood one evening (**) a year before. She doesn't really drink (probably a couple of glasses a year), and has never smoked. She used to be able to run marathons. But she is apparently not vulnerable....
I hate our GP.
(*) Paramedic's estimate. (**) It was the night of the second Falcon Heavy launch. An odd way to bookmark time.
Whitty throwing cold water on the "omicron less severe" line of reasoning.
He is ignoring real world evidence. I simply don't understand why he would do that. He didn't when the news was bad from other countries.
I think I would believe Chris Whitty before someone without his scientific knowledge of the subject
Especially when what he is saying is clear. Previous variants and vaccines reduce hospitalisation rates. That means that people have less severe illness - not dying / going into ICU. But a low percentage of very high numbers infected means you have the same numbers or more who are dying / going into ICU.
So what you're saying is that having say 40,000 cases a day spread throughout the year earlier this year will be reducing the numbers going to ICU this winter? 🤔
78,610 cases......I presume 100k will be breeched by end of the week.
The usual suspects will be ramping up the pressure to cancel Christmas.
Well, what do you think?
No further restrictions needed? Everything going fine?
What would you do? You have been asked this repeatedly but if you have answered I must have missed it.
Tell us what restrictions you favour.
As I said and you were apparently unable to understand (or perhaps read), whatever it takes to try to prevent the NHS collapsing and people dying without medical care.
Are you saying that we shouldn't try to prevent the NHS collapsing? By implication that seems to be the opinion of many here.
OK we're getting there. So no one is allowed to die of Covid. Is that what you're after? How would you achieve that.
The tortuous way this troll avoids a) saying what he would do and/or b) putting his money where his very big sanctimonious mouth is is truly breathtaking.
Is @Chris a troll? The vast majority of the public would agree with him and disagree with you?
Agree with what? It's impossible to get him to explain his position.
Frankly, the fact that you people keep saying that is simply an admission of your fundamental dishonesty.
How can I make it any clearer? WE MUST DO WHATEVER IT TAKES TO PREVENT THE NHS COLLAPSING AND BEING UNABLE TO GIVE PEOPLE MEDICAL CARE
It's a simple, fundamental political choice. If people disagree, they should have the honesty to say so. The fact that they have so much difficulty in doing so speaks volumes.
But you still haven't outlined any specific measures, just a generalised bit it rhetoric. What specific measures are we talking about here? Lockdown? Economic shutdown? For how long? How do we keep shelves stocked? Will the government send around the ration van? What are you specifically saying needs to be done?
Oh, for God's sake I don't believe you're really such a fool that you can't understand plain English.
Don't waste my time.
You're wasting ours.
I've made it clear I would have zero restrictions whatsoever. But you seem to be being coy about what specific measures you think are what it will take.
If you're in charge what are the "whatever it takes" measures specifically?
Or, put another way:
- "Whatever it takes" to save the NHS in the short term, includes bankrupting the country in the medium term, thus collapsing the NHS in the long term - Therefore, you can't possibly mean that literally - So, what is the upper bound on the economic damage that you would accept to preserve the NHS in the short term?
So in SA in Guateng it looks like hospital admissions went +200%, +100%, +50% on a weekly basis. Other regions have done the first 200%, will be interesting to see fi they follow the patttern.
Current week is incomplete and I haven't worked out the likely figure just yet, could well be ending up flat. That's a liveable with explosion as long as the fall is reasonably fast given the low ration of ICU patients in that.
so for us
week 0 - 800 admissions a day week 1 2400 admissions a day (+200%) Week 2 4800 admissions a day (+100%) week 3 7200 admissions a day (+50%)
I'm not sure when the NHS collapses but those weeks 2 and 3 look scary.
SA had virtually zero hospitalisations before the latest wave started though, so they were starting from a much lower base.
so spot the problem...
No, our existing case load in hospitals is Delta. So our Omicron hospitalisations may well rise very rapidly but they are not starting at 800.
Going into Year 2 there was a narrative. We would get vaccinated and restrictions would end. Going into Year 3 it looks pretty certain that nothing has changed. There is always a medical reasons for restrictions with this thing, and we will still be in restrictions in Year 13 and Year 23.
Bollocks does it look like "nothing has changed". We have a largely vaccinated population, most with two jabs and now 25 million with a booster.
I predict that Omicron will not be a huge problem for the vaccinated in the UK. But it will be grim for the unvaccinated. Even grimmer next year, when they get blamed for "breaking the NHS"..
Comments
Let's imagine you are really, really clever and we are really, really stupid. With me so far?
Then imagine you have to tell a bunch of really, really stupid people what measures you would implement to avoid all the stuff IN CAPS AND BOLD you wrote.
What would that be.
Essentially we can't stop the omicron wave, but we can buy a bit more time for people to have their booster doses.
*famous last words...
Current week is incomplete and I haven't worked out the likely figure just yet, could well be ending up flat. That's a liveable with explosion as long as the fall is reasonably fast given the low ration of ICU patients in that.
I've waited 18 months for NHS care. Annoying, but a balance had to be struck across financial resources and the life of the country outside of healthcare.
Much has been made of mental health, for example. There is no health-cost free option during a pandemic.
Omicron looks like it’s saved the clown .
He did not give a scientific explanation of any sort why the UK experience should be different to South Africa, because the only thing he might have said that made sense is “the vaccines don’t really work”. Which we already know is also wrong, even with only two doses.
It’s one of the really big healthcare events each year
But not now.
Curious.
The operation was a success even though the patient died.
@MikeSmithson – any chance of pinning this post as we seem to have to repeat it every couple of hours?
Mrs J's lung issues have emerged again in a minor way this week, after two years. We don't think it's Covid: the symptoms are the same as before, and she's tested negative on LFT every day.
I really don't want her to get this bu**er.
We're booked in for our boosters tomorrow morning; when the little 'un finishes school, we'll be hunkering down for a bit...
It shows the danger of just assuming or using common sense. I have heard the dangers to mental health, for example, mentioned countless times on the media and elsewhere. Its just not showing up in the figures.
This would be significantly less shit if we stopped hurling moron, troll, fuck you etc at each other.
That is the point, the SA doctors are comparing like for like, not different countries.
In their favour, they had higher excess death in the last year than us. And if there’s causation in the data shown in the study on chromosome 3, their racial demographics are an advantage too:
https://www.ox.ac.uk/news/2021-11-05-researchers-uncover-gene-doubles-risk-death-covid-19
But none of that gets away from comparing South Africa in this wave vs South Africa in past waves. The data is now fairly mature in Gauteng and it shows a drastic fall in proportion of patients needing oxygen treatment. And this rings true with the ex vivo study someone posted earlier:
https://twitter.com/mugecevik/status/1471088942543949829?s=20
As far as I can see, the only thing of relevance at this point that might cause us trouble is if 2 doses of a vaccine (x months old) give substantially poorer protection against serious illness than infection by delta within the last year.
Good luck.
Frankly I'm left with the impression a lot of people here have no comprehension of what is about to happen.
The issue is that your definition of "most vulnerable groups" isn't the same as theirs. This is no longer about stopping the elderly dropping en masse. This is stopping so many people getting infected across the age range that even if its a low percentage getting really sick its still a lot in actual patient numbers.
Good news for us, except those in Liverpool.
If people feel the need to use that sort of language:
1) It doesn't suggest they have a very strong argument
2) It doesn't suggest calm, rational, balanced thinking
3) It does suggest hysteria
And people will judge the point being made accordingly.
If you have a decent point to make you should be able to do it in a calm way.
It's an odd feeling: I know she's otherwise fit and hearty, but then again, a few years back I saw her cough up a significant amount of blood, for reasons still not fully determined. She was given an asthma inhaler, and she hasn't had to use it for over a year before this week.
To those who say only the old and sick die of Covid: I say fu** off you **** little small-****** **************'s.
"Chris Whitty warns that more Covid records are going to be broken in the coming weeks"
If i was in the room i would be asking what levels do the models he has been shown actually show in terms of hospitalisations, icu, deaths....
week 0 - 800 admissions a day
week 1 2400 admissions a day (+200%)
Week 2 4800 admissions a day (+100%)
week 3 7200 admissions a day (+50%)
I'm not sure when the NHS collapses but those weeks 2 and 3 look scary.
Its happening now anyway whether they pull a lockdown or not. Chunks of the economy will shut themselves down as waves of sickness impact its ability to function.
What the government should be doing is reinstating support for people and businesses. Not planning for a long term effort - Omicron looks like it will burn fiercely then burn itself out. It just happens to be hitting us at the worst possible time for industries like hospitality.
(This is obviously tongue in cheek, but best clarify for the avoidance of doubt)
I've made it clear I would have zero restrictions whatsoever. But you seem to be being coy about what specific measures you think are what it will take.
If you're in charge what are the "whatever it takes" measures specifically?
Timing is pretty fortunate for the by-election tomorrow, unless all the non-postal voting Tory oldies are scared away from the polling stations.
I had a botched delivery today where my parcel was delivered to my neighbour so I had to knock on their door. I had to talk with someone in person. I hate that. Also, it increases covid risk.
positives up 19%
Testing up 15%.
Is there a degree to which we are picking up lots more cases at the moment due to lots more testing - not least as people LFT before every encounter (presumably this is a massive underestimate - who bothers recording a negative LFT?)
There were also a remarkable amount of abstentions among the Labour higher-ups. Including PB crushes Bridget, Rachel and Rosena. I realise Rachel is unwell, but why so many? Was it a pairing thing? Or some other reason?
https://votes.parliament.uk/Votes/Commons/Division/1181#notrecorded
At the beginning of the crisis, we asked if she could be put on the vulnerable list. They said no, despite her having coughed up half a litre (*) or so of blood one evening (**) a year before. She doesn't really drink (probably a couple of glasses a year), and has never smoked. She used to be able to run marathons. But she is apparently not vulnerable....
I hate our GP.
(*) Paramedic's estimate.
(**) It was the night of the second Falcon Heavy launch. An odd way to bookmark time.
- "Whatever it takes" to save the NHS in the short term, includes bankrupting the country in the medium term, thus collapsing the NHS in the long term
- Therefore, you can't possibly mean that literally
- So, what is the upper bound on the economic damage that you would accept to preserve the NHS in the short term?
I predict that Omicron will not be a huge problem for the vaccinated in the UK. But it will be grim for the unvaccinated. Even grimmer next year, when they get blamed for "breaking the NHS"..