"Ed (questioner in @itvnews video) Oldfield's CV looks v thin and short to be Head of Broadcast at No.10 with no broadcast/journalistic experience. He was apparently a transcriber in CCHQ previously but his father has donated tens of thousands to party so mystery solved I guess..."
And Stratton wasn't up to the job either, but got it by being a friend of the PM's wife.
Just been to my local petrol station/express convenience store.
“Masks are mandatory” signs up
1/2 staff masked
2/7 customers masked
People ain’t complying.
Again, another anecdote that matches the teller's perspective. In contrast, I went to my local Mozzers today, and the only person I saw not wearing a mask was one staff member, who had it around his neck.
That poll with Labour on 38 and the Tories on 34 is absolutely dreadful for the government. Those were exactly the kind of numbers I mentioned expecting if the original sleaze scandal dragged on into December, and now it has.
Being a winner is his last kind of alibi and insurance policy, and if there are any more polls like that and Tory MP's gain the idea he's a loser , he's out.
For all I think Sir Keir nailed Boris at PMQs and the "playing politics" line seemed weak, I can categorically say I don't care if people at No10 last December had a few drinks after work together. I am pretty sure we saw both sets of Grandparents on Christmas Day for a while, though not for dinner.
I can't remember the exact spread of restrictions but about half the country weren't allowed to do that (here in Cornwall we could, except the grandparents in question weren't allowed to leave Kent to travel here).
No, we weren’t allowed to either, but we did. I’m sure most people I know did
On topic, the worst thing from this polling is this.
Three in ten say they are less likely to follow Covid rules as a result (29%).
This rises to a third of Labour voters (33%) and those aged 18-34 (33%) who say the same.
Over half say they are just as likely to follow the rules (54%)
Whatever Boris Johnson announces tonight will be ignored by large parts of the country making us less secure.
He needs to go and be replaced by someone with the credibility and authority to launch you new Covid-19 measures.
Except it wouldn't matter if Jesus were to descend from heaven to promote any new Covid measures. First of all, the country, or a large enough fraction of it at any rate, has had enough of Covid measures and will happily ignore them if they think they can get away with it. And secondly, there's probably nothing short of a full lockdown that will do anything to seriously impede the latest version of this bloody virus, it's questionable as to whether or not even that will work, and neither the economy nor wider society can sustain an annual cycle of hokey cokey house arrest for the next thousand years.
The Government can plausibly get away with yet more masks (useless) and WFH (not useful enough,) and after that it is out of options. Reinstating large scale business support and putting about five or six million people back on furlough until various roadmap steps between April and July, let alone shutting all the schools again for the Winter, is a non-starter. And if declining to go to those lengths means, to put it bluntly, tent hospitals and doctors having to decide which Covid patient gets a ventilator and which one gets a big shot of morphine, then that's what's going to end up happening. After all, selectively abandoning non-Covid patients to perish through lack of care capacity is already a reality in the NHS. Why should selectively abandoning Covid patients to perish as well seem so unimaginable?
Basically, if we are fortunate and this latest wave of the disease is moderate then we can all breathe a sigh of relief, and if we aren't and it's bad then there are no workable strategies left for avoiding a massacre. Draconian restrictions are over. Finished.
I'm not sure it's as "mild" as we all hope
Benedict Barclay @BarclayBenedict · 2m Replying to @BarclayBenedict The total number of people in hospital with Covid is 4,252, which is very sharply up on 2,550 last week.
Gauteng has fallen from 72% of cases to 59%, which shows that cases are now rising faster in other provinces.
The report from a couple of days ago was that 76% of the admissions testing positive with Covid were incidental infections i.e. the patient was not being admitted with Covid.
I believe that turned out to be wishful thinking bolleaux
Really? Source?
I found it last night down some 3am rabbit hole, I fear I can't find it again. Feel free to ignore, or not
Anyway, I just don't believe South African hospitals are taking in loads more people with broken limbs who just "happen" to have Covid as well
From yesterday
"South Africa's Covid Hospital Admissions More Than Double In A Day
"South Africa Covid Cases: According to the National Institute for Communicable Diseases 383 people have been admitted to hospital with the disease in the last 24 hours compared with 175 in the preceding period."
"Worst day yet for hospital admissions in South Africa. #Omicron Cases and Daily Admissions are 3x what we saw with Delta. But the silver lining is that ICU is still 72% below the most applicable Delta comparison period. How many will end up in ICU is the question. #COVID19"
Given the test positivity rate in South Africa is more than 20%, why does it surprise you that people with other ailments (cancer, eye surgery, gunshot wounds, kidney disease, etc.) might have Covid?
Enough people are now going through the whole grisly, inevitable process - infection, admission, then on to ventilation and ICU - for us to know the surge in Gauteng is real and it is Covid
There are also reports of the first deaths circling Twitter, and that statistical leap in excess deaths to consider (which might of course be random, or not, or Delta, who the F knows?)
OK time to watch Boris scratch the blackboard
So: time to nail your colours to the mast: So you think we should be strengthening measures against Covid (moving towards Lockdown), or continuing with current measures?
I said earlier that I think we should stick with what we have, and instead focus on surging the booster drive, and prepping the NHS for a big wave of new cases between now and late Jan
I fear a grim and foolish logic is, however, leading us to Plan B, and then Lockdown
And some on here are still saying Oh that will be fine, you stay home and eat chocolates.
Jesus F Christ. For many many people the last winter lockdown was pretty much unbearable
It will not be fine. But neither is having a very high rate of hospitalisation and deaths.
You fuck people and their businesses over too much, you run out of money, the health service collapses, you get the deaths anyway.
The odd thing is: we have been at war; in many ways a much worse situation, and your scenario did not come to pass.
For all I think Sir Keir nailed Boris at PMQs and the "playing politics" line seemed weak, I can categorically say I don't care if people at No10 last December had a few drinks after work together. I am pretty sure we saw both sets of Grandparents on Christmas Day for a while, though not for dinner.
I can't remember the exact spread of restrictions but about half the country weren't allowed to do that (here in Cornwall we could, except the grandparents in question weren't allowed to leave Kent to travel here).
No, we weren’t allowed to either, but we did.
I suppose in that context you might be fairly relaxed about politicians and staff breaking the law, but might also be in a small minority.
On topic, the worst thing from this polling is this.
Three in ten say they are less likely to follow Covid rules as a result (29%).
This rises to a third of Labour voters (33%) and those aged 18-34 (33%) who say the same.
Over half say they are just as likely to follow the rules (54%)
Whatever Boris Johnson announces tonight will be ignored by large parts of the country making us less secure.
He needs to go and be replaced by someone with the credibility and authority to launch you new Covid-19 measures.
Except it wouldn't matter if Jesus were to descend from heaven to promote any new Covid measures. First of all, the country, or a large enough fraction of it at any rate, has had enough of Covid measures and will happily ignore them if they think they can get away with it. And secondly, there's probably nothing short of a full lockdown that will do anything to seriously impede the latest version of this bloody virus, it's questionable as to whether or not even that will work, and neither the economy nor wider society can sustain an annual cycle of hokey cokey house arrest for the next thousand years.
The Government can plausibly get away with yet more masks (useless) and WFH (not useful enough,) and after that it is out of options. Reinstating large scale business support and putting about five or six million people back on furlough until various roadmap steps between April and July, let alone shutting all the schools again for the Winter, is a non-starter. And if declining to go to those lengths means, to put it bluntly, tent hospitals and doctors having to decide which Covid patient gets a ventilator and which one gets a big shot of morphine, then that's what's going to end up happening. After all, selectively abandoning non-Covid patients to perish through lack of care capacity is already a reality in the NHS. Why should selectively abandoning Covid patients to perish as well seem so unimaginable?
Basically, if we are fortunate and this latest wave of the disease is moderate then we can all breathe a sigh of relief, and if we aren't and it's bad then there are no workable strategies left for avoiding a massacre. Draconian restrictions are over. Finished.
I'm not sure it's as "mild" as we all hope
Benedict Barclay @BarclayBenedict · 2m Replying to @BarclayBenedict The total number of people in hospital with Covid is 4,252, which is very sharply up on 2,550 last week.
Gauteng has fallen from 72% of cases to 59%, which shows that cases are now rising faster in other provinces.
The report from a couple of days ago was that 76% of the admissions testing positive with Covid were incidental infections i.e. the patient was not being admitted with Covid.
I believe that turned out to be wishful thinking bolleaux
Really? Source?
I found it last night down some 3am rabbit hole, I fear I can't find it again. Feel free to ignore, or not
Anyway, I just don't believe South African hospitals are taking in loads more people with broken limbs who just "happen" to have Covid as well
From yesterday
"South Africa's Covid Hospital Admissions More Than Double In A Day
"South Africa Covid Cases: According to the National Institute for Communicable Diseases 383 people have been admitted to hospital with the disease in the last 24 hours compared with 175 in the preceding period."
"Worst day yet for hospital admissions in South Africa. #Omicron Cases and Daily Admissions are 3x what we saw with Delta. But the silver lining is that ICU is still 72% below the most applicable Delta comparison period. How many will end up in ICU is the question. #COVID19"
Given the test positivity rate in South Africa is more than 20%, why does it surprise you that people with other ailments (cancer, eye surgery, gunshot wounds, kidney disease, etc.) might have Covid?
Enough people are now going through the whole grisly, inevitable process - infection, admission, then on to ventilation and ICU - for us to know the surge in Gauteng is real and it is Covid
There are also reports of the first deaths circling Twitter, and that statistical leap in excess deaths to consider (which might of course be random, or not, or Delta, who the F knows?)
OK time to watch Boris scratch the blackboard
So: time to nail your colours to the mast: So you think we should be strengthening measures against Covid (moving towards Lockdown), or continuing with current measures?
I said earlier that I think we should stick with what we have, and instead focus on surging the booster drive, and prepping the NHS for a big wave of new cases between now and late Jan
I fear a grim and foolish logic is, however, leading us to Plan B, and then Lockdown
And some on here are still saying Oh that will be fine, you stay home and eat chocolates.
Jesus F Christ. For many many people the last winter lockdown was pretty much unbearable
If there's another lockdown, just ignore it. The police can't weld everybody's doors shut.
They can, however, persecute blameless walkers for having the audacity to have a take away coffee with them, which thereby constitutes a picnic. The police behaved like a bunch of disreputable shits last lockdown in their persecution of easy targets.
On topic, the worst thing from this polling is this.
Three in ten say they are less likely to follow Covid rules as a result (29%).
This rises to a third of Labour voters (33%) and those aged 18-34 (33%) who say the same.
Over half say they are just as likely to follow the rules (54%)
Whatever Boris Johnson announces tonight will be ignored by large parts of the country making us less secure.
He needs to go and be replaced by someone with the credibility and authority to launch you new Covid-19 measures.
Except it wouldn't matter if Jesus were to descend from heaven to promote any new Covid measures. First of all, the country, or a large enough fraction of it at any rate, has had enough of Covid measures and will happily ignore them if they think they can get away with it. And secondly, there's probably nothing short of a full lockdown that will do anything to seriously impede the latest version of this bloody virus, it's questionable as to whether or not even that will work, and neither the economy nor wider society can sustain an annual cycle of hokey cokey house arrest for the next thousand years.
The Government can plausibly get away with yet more masks (useless) and WFH (not useful enough,) and after that it is out of options. Reinstating large scale business support and putting about five or six million people back on furlough until various roadmap steps between April and July, let alone shutting all the schools again for the Winter, is a non-starter. And if declining to go to those lengths means, to put it bluntly, tent hospitals and doctors having to decide which Covid patient gets a ventilator and which one gets a big shot of morphine, then that's what's going to end up happening. After all, selectively abandoning non-Covid patients to perish through lack of care capacity is already a reality in the NHS. Why should selectively abandoning Covid patients to perish as well seem so unimaginable?
Basically, if we are fortunate and this latest wave of the disease is moderate then we can all breathe a sigh of relief, and if we aren't and it's bad then there are no workable strategies left for avoiding a massacre. Draconian restrictions are over. Finished.
I'm not sure it's as "mild" as we all hope
Benedict Barclay @BarclayBenedict · 2m Replying to @BarclayBenedict The total number of people in hospital with Covid is 4,252, which is very sharply up on 2,550 last week.
Gauteng has fallen from 72% of cases to 59%, which shows that cases are now rising faster in other provinces.
The report from a couple of days ago was that 76% of the admissions testing positive with Covid were incidental infections i.e. the patient was not being admitted with Covid.
I believe that turned out to be wishful thinking bolleaux
Really? Source?
I found it last night down some 3am rabbit hole, I fear I can't find it again. Feel free to ignore, or not
Anyway, I just don't believe South African hospitals are taking in loads more people with broken limbs who just "happen" to have Covid as well
From yesterday
"South Africa's Covid Hospital Admissions More Than Double In A Day
"South Africa Covid Cases: According to the National Institute for Communicable Diseases 383 people have been admitted to hospital with the disease in the last 24 hours compared with 175 in the preceding period."
"Worst day yet for hospital admissions in South Africa. #Omicron Cases and Daily Admissions are 3x what we saw with Delta. But the silver lining is that ICU is still 72% below the most applicable Delta comparison period. How many will end up in ICU is the question. #COVID19"
Given the test positivity rate in South Africa is more than 20%, why does it surprise you that people with other ailments (cancer, eye surgery, gunshot wounds, kidney disease, etc.) might have Covid?
Enough people are now going through the whole grisly, inevitable process - infection, admission, then on to ventilation and ICU - for us to know the surge in Gauteng is real and it is Covid
There are also reports of the first deaths circling Twitter, and that statistical leap in excess deaths to consider (which might of course be random, or not, or Delta, who the F knows?)
OK time to watch Boris scratch the blackboard
So: time to nail your colours to the mast: So you think we should be strengthening measures against Covid (moving towards Lockdown), or continuing with current measures?
I said earlier that I think we should stick with what we have, and instead focus on surging the booster drive, and prepping the NHS for a big wave of new cases between now and late Jan
I fear a grim and foolish logic is, however, leading us to Plan B, and then Lockdown
And some on here are still saying Oh that will be fine, you stay home and eat chocolates.
Jesus F Christ. For many many people the last winter lockdown was pretty much unbearable
It will not be fine. But neither is having a very high rate of hospitalisation and deaths.
You fuck people and their businesses over too much, you run out of money, the health service collapses, you get the deaths anyway.
The odd thing is: we have been at war; in many ways a much worse situation, and your scenario did not come to pass.
When the country was at war the Government didn't respond by telling everybody to sit at home all the bloody time.
Anyway, off for my last visit to a restaurant, possibly ever. They'll all be gone by the time the knicker-wetters let go of lockdown next August, or possibly the one after.
For all those supporting BoJo - what success has he delivered over the last 2 years?
I am not supporting him, but he got us out of the EU, got a trade deal that protected our sovereignty more than anyone said was possible, and got us a vaccine program earlier than anyone else in Europe
The one that ended the United Kingdom as a trading block and forces GB and NI companies to have export licences to sell things to each other?
If that's protecting the sovereignty of the UK I'd hate to see what not ptotecting it looks like.
Theresa May's backstop.
Infinitely worse.
Perhaps, but isn't relevant to the argument @Aslan was promoting. He said that the current trade deal - which dissolved the UK trading area - "protected our sovereignty". I now need an export license to sell products in my own country. How has that protected our sovereignty to do things like not need an export license to trade inside our own country...
I don't need you to come back in with alternative takes on external sovereignty - you have one perspective on that, I have another. But the ending of the UK as a trading nation is indisputable - we are now split in two with GB as one trading zone and NI as another trading zone. Usually deals that protect a country's sovereignty doesn't split a chunk off it.
It did protect our sovereignty because we had Article 16 so could override it. The ending is not indisputable, we'll see what the situation is post-Article 16.
There are plenty of countries that have had chunks split off, where its convenient to do so, its far from unprecedented.
On that logic while in the EU our sovereignty was protected because we could always leave.
Either in the EU we were sovereign because we could leave and there is no compromise of sovereignty over NI because we can invoke A16; or in the EU we were not sovereign and we are not sovereign now because there is no free movement of goods between GB and NI.
You are a logical debater. Which is it; it can't be both.
We were always technically sovereign, we could only exercise that sovereignty by invoking Article 50 so we rightly did when people wanted to exercise that sovereignty.
Same deal with Article 16 - and I think it should be invoked too.
So as it stands we are not sovereign because we haven't exercised it. Is that right?
If memory serves, you've been trying variants (so to speak) of this line for a couple of years now, and I'm sorry, but I think it's a stupid argument. If we our sovereignty within the EU is only present because we have the option to leave it, then we clearly aren't sovereign while we're in it, and the fact that we assented (implicitly) to that reality is irrelevant.
He who [has to] break[s] a thing to find out what it is, has left the path of wisdom.
Apology accepted. Although your point is wrong. We were always sovereign whether we decided to exercise it or not. Of course we made compromises but did so as a sovereign nation.
But that is not the point. If we were not sovereign within the EU because we hadn't "proved" it by leaving, then the NI deal means we are not sovereign because as of this moment we haven't exercised A16. It can't be both.
If you think we weren't sovereign while in the EU and aren't sovereign now because the NI deal means that there is no free movement of goods between GB and NI that is fair enough. But you can't argue for one and not the other.
We were always sovereign for both. The question is if you wanted to exercise your sovereignty or not.
The English and Welsh voted to exercise their sovereignty, hence invoking Article 50. The NI did not, hence the special arrangements.
Now if the NI wish to exercise theirs, then A16 is the right answer for them, just as it was for the UK as a whole. For the same reasons. Using the same logic.
No inconsistencies.
Excellent. So we were sovereign while in the EU: tick. And we are sovereign with this NI deal: tick.
So why all the fuss about leaving the EU to reclaim our sovereignty.
Because we wanted to exercise our sovereignty.
Not just have it in abeyance.
Philip
I remember you telling me that the main benefit of leaving the EU was to get our sovereignty back.
Now you are telling me that we had it all the time!
So why leave?
So we could exercise it.
If you only have sovereignty so long as you can't exercise it, and you want to exercise it but can't, then do you have it.
The considerable drop in support for the Conservative Party is in large part a consequence of news surrounding a Christmas Party that is alleged to have taken place in Downing Street last year, at a time when coronavirus restrictions forbade such gatherings. The British public is well aware of the reports: 43% say they have heard ‘a significant amount’ and 35% say they have heard ‘a fair amount’ about the Christmas Party news (just 1 in 5 say they have heard ‘a small amount’ or ‘nothing at all’ about this latest news).
Most Britons are taking the allegations very seriously: 69% of respondents say the Metropolitan Police should investigate the Christmas Party held in Downing Street last year. A majority of both 2019 Conservative voters (56%) and 2019 Labour voters (81%) agree that the party should be investigated. Conversely, a fifth (20%) of Britons do not believe the Metropolitan Police should investigate, a position held by 33% of Conservative voters.
Further, 63% believe the Prime Minister should resign if it is confirmed that the Christmas Party took place at a time when the Government had issued coronavirus restrictions which forbade such gatherings. In addition to 81% of Labour voters, a plurality (46%) of Conservative voters, too, think that Boris Johnson should resign in this situation.
A quarter (24%) of respondents hold the alternative view that the Prime Minister should not resign, increasing to 39% among Conservative voters.
If only someone here had warned us what a disaster he was likely to be, before it came to pass.
On topic, the worst thing from this polling is this.
Three in ten say they are less likely to follow Covid rules as a result (29%).
This rises to a third of Labour voters (33%) and those aged 18-34 (33%) who say the same.
Over half say they are just as likely to follow the rules (54%)
Whatever Boris Johnson announces tonight will be ignored by large parts of the country making us less secure.
He needs to go and be replaced by someone with the credibility and authority to launch you new Covid-19 measures.
Except it wouldn't matter if Jesus were to descend from heaven to promote any new Covid measures. First of all, the country, or a large enough fraction of it at any rate, has had enough of Covid measures and will happily ignore them if they think they can get away with it. And secondly, there's probably nothing short of a full lockdown that will do anything to seriously impede the latest version of this bloody virus, it's questionable as to whether or not even that will work, and neither the economy nor wider society can sustain an annual cycle of hokey cokey house arrest for the next thousand years.
The Government can plausibly get away with yet more masks (useless) and WFH (not useful enough,) and after that it is out of options. Reinstating large scale business support and putting about five or six million people back on furlough until various roadmap steps between April and July, let alone shutting all the schools again for the Winter, is a non-starter. And if declining to go to those lengths means, to put it bluntly, tent hospitals and doctors having to decide which Covid patient gets a ventilator and which one gets a big shot of morphine, then that's what's going to end up happening. After all, selectively abandoning non-Covid patients to perish through lack of care capacity is already a reality in the NHS. Why should selectively abandoning Covid patients to perish as well seem so unimaginable?
Basically, if we are fortunate and this latest wave of the disease is moderate then we can all breathe a sigh of relief, and if we aren't and it's bad then there are no workable strategies left for avoiding a massacre. Draconian restrictions are over. Finished.
I'm not sure it's as "mild" as we all hope
Benedict Barclay @BarclayBenedict · 2m Replying to @BarclayBenedict The total number of people in hospital with Covid is 4,252, which is very sharply up on 2,550 last week.
Gauteng has fallen from 72% of cases to 59%, which shows that cases are now rising faster in other provinces.
The report from a couple of days ago was that 76% of the admissions testing positive with Covid were incidental infections i.e. the patient was not being admitted with Covid.
I believe that turned out to be wishful thinking bolleaux
Really? Source?
I found it last night down some 3am rabbit hole, I fear I can't find it again. Feel free to ignore, or not
Anyway, I just don't believe South African hospitals are taking in loads more people with broken limbs who just "happen" to have Covid as well
From yesterday
"South Africa's Covid Hospital Admissions More Than Double In A Day
"South Africa Covid Cases: According to the National Institute for Communicable Diseases 383 people have been admitted to hospital with the disease in the last 24 hours compared with 175 in the preceding period."
"Worst day yet for hospital admissions in South Africa. #Omicron Cases and Daily Admissions are 3x what we saw with Delta. But the silver lining is that ICU is still 72% below the most applicable Delta comparison period. How many will end up in ICU is the question. #COVID19"
Given the test positivity rate in South Africa is more than 20%, why does it surprise you that people with other ailments (cancer, eye surgery, gunshot wounds, kidney disease, etc.) might have Covid?
Enough people are now going through the whole grisly, inevitable process - infection, admission, then on to ventilation and ICU - for us to know the surge in Gauteng is real and it is Covid
There are also reports of the first deaths circling Twitter, and that statistical leap in excess deaths to consider (which might of course be random, or not, or Delta, who the F knows?)
OK time to watch Boris scratch the blackboard
So: time to nail your colours to the mast: So you think we should be strengthening measures against Covid (moving towards Lockdown), or continuing with current measures?
I said earlier that I think we should stick with what we have, and instead focus on surging the booster drive, and prepping the NHS for a big wave of new cases between now and late Jan
I fear a grim and foolish logic is, however, leading us to Plan B, and then Lockdown
And some on here are still saying Oh that will be fine, you stay home and eat chocolates.
Jesus F Christ. For many many people the last winter lockdown was pretty much unbearable
It will not be fine. But neither is having a very high rate of hospitalisation and deaths.
You fuck people and their businesses over too much, you run out of money, the health service collapses, you get the deaths anyway.
The odd thing is: we have been at war; in many ways a much worse situation, and your scenario did not come to pass.
When the country was at war the Government didn't respond by telling everybody to sit at home all the bloody time.
They did, when it was needed. 'Stay put if the invader comes.' 'Holiday at home' to prevent 'unnecessary travel'. 'Coughs and sneezes spread diseases'. .
"Ed (questioner in @itvnews video) Oldfield's CV looks v thin and short to be Head of Broadcast at No.10 with no broadcast/journalistic experience. He was apparently a transcriber in CCHQ previously but his father has donated tens of thousands to party so mystery solved I guess..."
And Stratton wasn't up to the job either, but got it by being a friend of the PM's wife.
The considerable drop in support for the Conservative Party is in large part a consequence of news surrounding a Christmas Party that is alleged to have taken place in Downing Street last year, at a time when coronavirus restrictions forbade such gatherings. The British public is well aware of the reports: 43% say they have heard ‘a significant amount’ and 35% say they have heard ‘a fair amount’ about the Christmas Party news (just 1 in 5 say they have heard ‘a small amount’ or ‘nothing at all’ about this latest news).
Most Britons are taking the allegations very seriously: 69% of respondents say the Metropolitan Police should investigate the Christmas Party held in Downing Street last year. A majority of both 2019 Conservative voters (56%) and 2019 Labour voters (81%) agree that the party should be investigated. Conversely, a fifth (20%) of Britons do not believe the Metropolitan Police should investigate, a position held by 33% of Conservative voters.
Further, 63% believe the Prime Minister should resign if it is confirmed that the Christmas Party took place at a time when the Government had issued coronavirus restrictions which forbade such gatherings. In addition to 81% of Labour voters, a plurality (46%) of Conservative voters, too, think that Boris Johnson should resign in this situation.
A quarter (24%) of respondents hold the alternative view that the Prime Minister should not resign, increasing to 39% among Conservative voters.
If only someone here had warned us what a disaster he was likely to be, before it came to pass.
I never thought he would be have cake and eat it Prime Minister.
Just been to my local petrol station/express convenience store.
“Masks are mandatory” signs up
1/2 staff masked
2/7 customers masked
People ain’t complying.
Flowery pillowcases or blue paper do nothing useful to stop Covid, and everyone knows it.
Pointless something-must-be-done-ism.
"Everyone knows it."
Well, I disagree., That means either you are mistaken, or you are, as I do not 'know' it.
Anti-maskers are only one step down from anti-vaxxers.
Get fucked Josias. Seriously, you're a fucking fool.
Perhaps Max, just perhaps, you are wrong on this.
COVID is endemic, you pro-masking wankers have got no end date. You're walking the nation into a new forever end-state. This is where we're at with COVID, it isn't going to change. Get that into your idiotic head.
Watching my oldest daughter;s Christmas concert (online, of course, though in fairness to the school there are some people there.) Five of the choir are wearing facemasks. Madness.
"Ed (questioner in @itvnews video) Oldfield's CV looks v thin and short to be Head of Broadcast at No.10 with no broadcast/journalistic experience. He was apparently a transcriber in CCHQ previously but his father has donated tens of thousands to party so mystery solved I guess..."
And Stratton wasn't up to the job either, but got it by being a friend of the PM's wife.
Just been to my local petrol station/express convenience store.
“Masks are mandatory” signs up
1/2 staff masked
2/7 customers masked
People ain’t complying.
Flowery pillowcases or blue paper do nothing useful to stop Covid, and everyone knows it.
Pointless something-must-be-done-ism.
"Everyone knows it."
Well, I disagree., That means either you are mistaken, or you are, as I do not 'know' it.
Anti-maskers are only one step down from anti-vaxxers.
Medical grade PPE is one thing. A bit of blue paper is something else.
There are so many aspects to this. Firstly, protection from getting infected yourself. Secondly, protection from infecting others. Thirdly, reducing the viral load a person gets.
fourthly, I have yet to see anyone using 'a bit of blue paper' as a mask.
Do you think they know the vaccines won't protect against this new variant?
I wouldn't go that far, but even by Dr Doom standards, he was definitely not happy. I definitely took it that he was wanting much more restrictions and fears that there will be big spikes. He made a big point of SA hospitalization up 300% in a week and that at the moment it is still mostly among the young.
For all those supporting BoJo - what success has he delivered over the last 2 years?
I am not supporting him, but he got us out of the EU, got a trade deal that protected our sovereignty more than anyone said was possible, and got us a vaccine program earlier than anyone else in Europe
The one that ended the United Kingdom as a trading block and forces GB and NI companies to have export licences to sell things to each other?
If that's protecting the sovereignty of the UK I'd hate to see what not ptotecting it looks like.
Theresa May's backstop.
Infinitely worse.
Perhaps, but isn't relevant to the argument @Aslan was promoting. He said that the current trade deal - which dissolved the UK trading area - "protected our sovereignty". I now need an export license to sell products in my own country. How has that protected our sovereignty to do things like not need an export license to trade inside our own country...
I don't need you to come back in with alternative takes on external sovereignty - you have one perspective on that, I have another. But the ending of the UK as a trading nation is indisputable - we are now split in two with GB as one trading zone and NI as another trading zone. Usually deals that protect a country's sovereignty doesn't split a chunk off it.
It did protect our sovereignty because we had Article 16 so could override it. The ending is not indisputable, we'll see what the situation is post-Article 16.
There are plenty of countries that have had chunks split off, where its convenient to do so, its far from unprecedented.
On that logic while in the EU our sovereignty was protected because we could always leave.
Either in the EU we were sovereign because we could leave and there is no compromise of sovereignty over NI because we can invoke A16; or in the EU we were not sovereign and we are not sovereign now because there is no free movement of goods between GB and NI.
You are a logical debater. Which is it; it can't be both.
We were always technically sovereign, we could only exercise that sovereignty by invoking Article 50 so we rightly did when people wanted to exercise that sovereignty.
Same deal with Article 16 - and I think it should be invoked too.
So as it stands we are not sovereign because we haven't exercised it. Is that right?
If memory serves, you've been trying variants (so to speak) of this line for a couple of years now, and I'm sorry, but I think it's a stupid argument. If we our sovereignty within the EU is only present because we have the option to leave it, then we clearly aren't sovereign while we're in it, and the fact that we assented (implicitly) to that reality is irrelevant.
He who [has to] break[s] a thing to find out what it is, has left the path of wisdom.
Apology accepted. Although your point is wrong. We were always sovereign whether we decided to exercise it or not. Of course we made compromises but did so as a sovereign nation.
But that is not the point. If we were not sovereign within the EU because we hadn't "proved" it by leaving, then the NI deal means we are not sovereign because as of this moment we haven't exercised A16. It can't be both.
If you think we weren't sovereign while in the EU and aren't sovereign now because the NI deal means that there is no free movement of goods between GB and NI that is fair enough. But you can't argue for one and not the other.
We were always sovereign for both. The question is if you wanted to exercise your sovereignty or not.
The English and Welsh voted to exercise their sovereignty, hence invoking Article 50. The NI did not, hence the special arrangements.
Now if the NI wish to exercise theirs, then A16 is the right answer for them, just as it was for the UK as a whole. For the same reasons. Using the same logic.
No inconsistencies.
Excellent. So we were sovereign while in the EU: tick. And we are sovereign with this NI deal: tick.
So why all the fuss about leaving the EU to reclaim our sovereignty.
Because we wanted to exercise our sovereignty.
Not just have it in abeyance.
Philip
I remember you telling me that the main benefit of leaving the EU was to get our sovereignty back.
Now you are telling me that we had it all the time!
So why leave?
So we could exercise it.
If you only have sovereignty so long as you can't exercise it, and you want to exercise it but can't, then do you have it.
On topic, the worst thing from this polling is this.
Three in ten say they are less likely to follow Covid rules as a result (29%).
This rises to a third of Labour voters (33%) and those aged 18-34 (33%) who say the same.
Over half say they are just as likely to follow the rules (54%)
Whatever Boris Johnson announces tonight will be ignored by large parts of the country making us less secure.
He needs to go and be replaced by someone with the credibility and authority to launch you new Covid-19 measures.
Except it wouldn't matter if Jesus were to descend from heaven to promote any new Covid measures. First of all, the country, or a large enough fraction of it at any rate, has had enough of Covid measures and will happily ignore them if they think they can get away with it. And secondly, there's probably nothing short of a full lockdown that will do anything to seriously impede the latest version of this bloody virus, it's questionable as to whether or not even that will work, and neither the economy nor wider society can sustain an annual cycle of hokey cokey house arrest for the next thousand years.
The Government can plausibly get away with yet more masks (useless) and WFH (not useful enough,) and after that it is out of options. Reinstating large scale business support and putting about five or six million people back on furlough until various roadmap steps between April and July, let alone shutting all the schools again for the Winter, is a non-starter. And if declining to go to those lengths means, to put it bluntly, tent hospitals and doctors having to decide which Covid patient gets a ventilator and which one gets a big shot of morphine, then that's what's going to end up happening. After all, selectively abandoning non-Covid patients to perish through lack of care capacity is already a reality in the NHS. Why should selectively abandoning Covid patients to perish as well seem so unimaginable?
Basically, if we are fortunate and this latest wave of the disease is moderate then we can all breathe a sigh of relief, and if we aren't and it's bad then there are no workable strategies left for avoiding a massacre. Draconian restrictions are over. Finished.
I'm not sure it's as "mild" as we all hope
Benedict Barclay @BarclayBenedict · 2m Replying to @BarclayBenedict The total number of people in hospital with Covid is 4,252, which is very sharply up on 2,550 last week.
Gauteng has fallen from 72% of cases to 59%, which shows that cases are now rising faster in other provinces.
The report from a couple of days ago was that 76% of the admissions testing positive with Covid were incidental infections i.e. the patient was not being admitted with Covid.
I believe that turned out to be wishful thinking bolleaux
Really? Source?
I found it last night down some 3am rabbit hole, I fear I can't find it again. Feel free to ignore, or not
Anyway, I just don't believe South African hospitals are taking in loads more people with broken limbs who just "happen" to have Covid as well
From yesterday
"South Africa's Covid Hospital Admissions More Than Double In A Day
"South Africa Covid Cases: According to the National Institute for Communicable Diseases 383 people have been admitted to hospital with the disease in the last 24 hours compared with 175 in the preceding period."
"Worst day yet for hospital admissions in South Africa. #Omicron Cases and Daily Admissions are 3x what we saw with Delta. But the silver lining is that ICU is still 72% below the most applicable Delta comparison period. How many will end up in ICU is the question. #COVID19"
Given the test positivity rate in South Africa is more than 20%, why does it surprise you that people with other ailments (cancer, eye surgery, gunshot wounds, kidney disease, etc.) might have Covid?
Enough people are now going through the whole grisly, inevitable process - infection, admission, then on to ventilation and ICU - for us to know the surge in Gauteng is real and it is Covid
There are also reports of the first deaths circling Twitter, and that statistical leap in excess deaths to consider (which might of course be random, or not, or Delta, who the F knows?)
OK time to watch Boris scratch the blackboard
So: time to nail your colours to the mast: So you think we should be strengthening measures against Covid (moving towards Lockdown), or continuing with current measures?
I said earlier that I think we should stick with what we have, and instead focus on surging the booster drive, and prepping the NHS for a big wave of new cases between now and late Jan
I fear a grim and foolish logic is, however, leading us to Plan B, and then Lockdown
And some on here are still saying Oh that will be fine, you stay home and eat chocolates.
Jesus F Christ. For many many people the last winter lockdown was pretty much unbearable
It will not be fine. But neither is having a very high rate of hospitalisation and deaths.
You fuck people and their businesses over too much, you run out of money, the health service collapses, you get the deaths anyway.
The odd thing is: we have been at war; in many ways a much worse situation, and your scenario did not come to pass.
When the country was at war the Government didn't respond by telling everybody to sit at home all the bloody time.
They did, when it was needed. 'Stay put if the invader comes.' 'Holiday at home' to prevent 'unnecessary travel'. 'Coughs and sneezes spread diseases'. .
I’m old enough to remember having been told to hide under the kitchen table in the event of the four minute warning.
Just been to my local petrol station/express convenience store.
“Masks are mandatory” signs up
1/2 staff masked
2/7 customers masked
People ain’t complying.
Flowery pillowcases or blue paper do nothing useful to stop Covid, and everyone knows it.
Pointless something-must-be-done-ism.
"Everyone knows it."
Well, I disagree., That means either you are mistaken, or you are, as I do not 'know' it.
Anti-maskers are only one step down from anti-vaxxers.
Get fucked Josias. Seriously, you're a fucking fool.
Perhaps Max, just perhaps, you are wrong on this.
COVID is endemic, you pro-masking wankers have got no end date. You're walking the nation into a new forever end-state. This is where we're at with COVID, it isn't going to change. Get that into your idiotic head.
Instead of foul-mouthed swearing at people on here maybe go and make yourself a cup of tea, go for a walk, do something pleasant. Rather than simply spreading unpleasantness on here.
Do you think they know the vaccines won't protect against this new variant?
I wouldn't go that far, but even by Dr Doom standards, he was definitely not happy. I definitely took it that he was wanting much more restrictions and fears that there will be big spikes. He made a big point of SA hospitalization up 300% in a week and that at the moment it is still mostly among the young.
He was very strongly hinting at a new lockdown, as I saw it. He laid out the logic and the numbers, and then left it to the viewer to make the conclusion
On topic, the worst thing from this polling is this.
Three in ten say they are less likely to follow Covid rules as a result (29%).
This rises to a third of Labour voters (33%) and those aged 18-34 (33%) who say the same.
Over half say they are just as likely to follow the rules (54%)
Whatever Boris Johnson announces tonight will be ignored by large parts of the country making us less secure.
He needs to go and be replaced by someone with the credibility and authority to launch you new Covid-19 measures.
Except it wouldn't matter if Jesus were to descend from heaven to promote any new Covid measures. First of all, the country, or a large enough fraction of it at any rate, has had enough of Covid measures and will happily ignore them if they think they can get away with it. And secondly, there's probably nothing short of a full lockdown that will do anything to seriously impede the latest version of this bloody virus, it's questionable as to whether or not even that will work, and neither the economy nor wider society can sustain an annual cycle of hokey cokey house arrest for the next thousand years.
The Government can plausibly get away with yet more masks (useless) and WFH (not useful enough,) and after that it is out of options. Reinstating large scale business support and putting about five or six million people back on furlough until various roadmap steps between April and July, let alone shutting all the schools again for the Winter, is a non-starter. And if declining to go to those lengths means, to put it bluntly, tent hospitals and doctors having to decide which Covid patient gets a ventilator and which one gets a big shot of morphine, then that's what's going to end up happening. After all, selectively abandoning non-Covid patients to perish through lack of care capacity is already a reality in the NHS. Why should selectively abandoning Covid patients to perish as well seem so unimaginable?
Basically, if we are fortunate and this latest wave of the disease is moderate then we can all breathe a sigh of relief, and if we aren't and it's bad then there are no workable strategies left for avoiding a massacre. Draconian restrictions are over. Finished.
I'm not sure it's as "mild" as we all hope
Benedict Barclay @BarclayBenedict · 2m Replying to @BarclayBenedict The total number of people in hospital with Covid is 4,252, which is very sharply up on 2,550 last week.
Gauteng has fallen from 72% of cases to 59%, which shows that cases are now rising faster in other provinces.
The report from a couple of days ago was that 76% of the admissions testing positive with Covid were incidental infections i.e. the patient was not being admitted with Covid.
I believe that turned out to be wishful thinking bolleaux
Really? Source?
I found it last night down some 3am rabbit hole, I fear I can't find it again. Feel free to ignore, or not
Anyway, I just don't believe South African hospitals are taking in loads more people with broken limbs who just "happen" to have Covid as well
From yesterday
"South Africa's Covid Hospital Admissions More Than Double In A Day
"South Africa Covid Cases: According to the National Institute for Communicable Diseases 383 people have been admitted to hospital with the disease in the last 24 hours compared with 175 in the preceding period."
"Worst day yet for hospital admissions in South Africa. #Omicron Cases and Daily Admissions are 3x what we saw with Delta. But the silver lining is that ICU is still 72% below the most applicable Delta comparison period. How many will end up in ICU is the question. #COVID19"
Given the test positivity rate in South Africa is more than 20%, why does it surprise you that people with other ailments (cancer, eye surgery, gunshot wounds, kidney disease, etc.) might have Covid?
Enough people are now going through the whole grisly, inevitable process - infection, admission, then on to ventilation and ICU - for us to know the surge in Gauteng is real and it is Covid
There are also reports of the first deaths circling Twitter, and that statistical leap in excess deaths to consider (which might of course be random, or not, or Delta, who the F knows?)
OK time to watch Boris scratch the blackboard
So: time to nail your colours to the mast: So you think we should be strengthening measures against Covid (moving towards Lockdown), or continuing with current measures?
I said earlier that I think we should stick with what we have, and instead focus on surging the booster drive, and prepping the NHS for a big wave of new cases between now and late Jan
I fear a grim and foolish logic is, however, leading us to Plan B, and then Lockdown
And some on here are still saying Oh that will be fine, you stay home and eat chocolates.
Jesus F Christ. For many many people the last winter lockdown was pretty much unbearable
It will not be fine. But neither is having a very high rate of hospitalisation and deaths.
You fuck people and their businesses over too much, you run out of money, the health service collapses, you get the deaths anyway.
The odd thing is: we have been at war; in many ways a much worse situation, and your scenario did not come to pass.
When the country was at war the Government didn't respond by telling everybody to sit at home all the bloody time.
They did, when it was needed. 'Stay put if the invader comes.' 'Holiday at home' to prevent 'unnecessary travel'. 'Coughs and sneezes spread diseases'. .
I’m old enough to remember having been told to hide under the kitchen table in the event of the four minute warning.
Not before taping brown paper over the windows I hope
On topic, the worst thing from this polling is this.
Three in ten say they are less likely to follow Covid rules as a result (29%).
This rises to a third of Labour voters (33%) and those aged 18-34 (33%) who say the same.
Over half say they are just as likely to follow the rules (54%)
Whatever Boris Johnson announces tonight will be ignored by large parts of the country making us less secure.
He needs to go and be replaced by someone with the credibility and authority to launch you new Covid-19 measures.
Except it wouldn't matter if Jesus were to descend from heaven to promote any new Covid measures. First of all, the country, or a large enough fraction of it at any rate, has had enough of Covid measures and will happily ignore them if they think they can get away with it. And secondly, there's probably nothing short of a full lockdown that will do anything to seriously impede the latest version of this bloody virus, it's questionable as to whether or not even that will work, and neither the economy nor wider society can sustain an annual cycle of hokey cokey house arrest for the next thousand years.
The Government can plausibly get away with yet more masks (useless) and WFH (not useful enough,) and after that it is out of options. Reinstating large scale business support and putting about five or six million people back on furlough until various roadmap steps between April and July, let alone shutting all the schools again for the Winter, is a non-starter. And if declining to go to those lengths means, to put it bluntly, tent hospitals and doctors having to decide which Covid patient gets a ventilator and which one gets a big shot of morphine, then that's what's going to end up happening. After all, selectively abandoning non-Covid patients to perish through lack of care capacity is already a reality in the NHS. Why should selectively abandoning Covid patients to perish as well seem so unimaginable?
Basically, if we are fortunate and this latest wave of the disease is moderate then we can all breathe a sigh of relief, and if we aren't and it's bad then there are no workable strategies left for avoiding a massacre. Draconian restrictions are over. Finished.
I'm not sure it's as "mild" as we all hope
Benedict Barclay @BarclayBenedict · 2m Replying to @BarclayBenedict The total number of people in hospital with Covid is 4,252, which is very sharply up on 2,550 last week.
Gauteng has fallen from 72% of cases to 59%, which shows that cases are now rising faster in other provinces.
The report from a couple of days ago was that 76% of the admissions testing positive with Covid were incidental infections i.e. the patient was not being admitted with Covid.
I believe that turned out to be wishful thinking bolleaux
Really? Source?
I found it last night down some 3am rabbit hole, I fear I can't find it again. Feel free to ignore, or not
Anyway, I just don't believe South African hospitals are taking in loads more people with broken limbs who just "happen" to have Covid as well
From yesterday
"South Africa's Covid Hospital Admissions More Than Double In A Day
"South Africa Covid Cases: According to the National Institute for Communicable Diseases 383 people have been admitted to hospital with the disease in the last 24 hours compared with 175 in the preceding period."
"Worst day yet for hospital admissions in South Africa. #Omicron Cases and Daily Admissions are 3x what we saw with Delta. But the silver lining is that ICU is still 72% below the most applicable Delta comparison period. How many will end up in ICU is the question. #COVID19"
Given the test positivity rate in South Africa is more than 20%, why does it surprise you that people with other ailments (cancer, eye surgery, gunshot wounds, kidney disease, etc.) might have Covid?
Enough people are now going through the whole grisly, inevitable process - infection, admission, then on to ventilation and ICU - for us to know the surge in Gauteng is real and it is Covid
There are also reports of the first deaths circling Twitter, and that statistical leap in excess deaths to consider (which might of course be random, or not, or Delta, who the F knows?)
OK time to watch Boris scratch the blackboard
So: time to nail your colours to the mast: So you think we should be strengthening measures against Covid (moving towards Lockdown), or continuing with current measures?
I said earlier that I think we should stick with what we have, and instead focus on surging the booster drive, and prepping the NHS for a big wave of new cases between now and late Jan
I fear a grim and foolish logic is, however, leading us to Plan B, and then Lockdown
And some on here are still saying Oh that will be fine, you stay home and eat chocolates.
Jesus F Christ. For many many people the last winter lockdown was pretty much unbearable
It will not be fine. But neither is having a very high rate of hospitalisation and deaths.
You fuck people and their businesses over too much, you run out of money, the health service collapses, you get the deaths anyway.
The odd thing is: we have been at war; in many ways a much worse situation, and your scenario did not come to pass.
When the country was at war the Government didn't respond by telling everybody to sit at home all the bloody time.
They did, when it was needed. 'Stay put if the invader comes.' 'Holiday at home' to prevent 'unnecessary travel'. 'Coughs and sneezes spread diseases'. .
I’m old enough to remember having been told to hide under the kitchen table in the event of the four minute warning.
On topic, the worst thing from this polling is this.
Three in ten say they are less likely to follow Covid rules as a result (29%).
This rises to a third of Labour voters (33%) and those aged 18-34 (33%) who say the same.
Over half say they are just as likely to follow the rules (54%)
Whatever Boris Johnson announces tonight will be ignored by large parts of the country making us less secure.
He needs to go and be replaced by someone with the credibility and authority to launch you new Covid-19 measures.
Except it wouldn't matter if Jesus were to descend from heaven to promote any new Covid measures. First of all, the country, or a large enough fraction of it at any rate, has had enough of Covid measures and will happily ignore them if they think they can get away with it. And secondly, there's probably nothing short of a full lockdown that will do anything to seriously impede the latest version of this bloody virus, it's questionable as to whether or not even that will work, and neither the economy nor wider society can sustain an annual cycle of hokey cokey house arrest for the next thousand years.
The Government can plausibly get away with yet more masks (useless) and WFH (not useful enough,) and after that it is out of options. Reinstating large scale business support and putting about five or six million people back on furlough until various roadmap steps between April and July, let alone shutting all the schools again for the Winter, is a non-starter. And if declining to go to those lengths means, to put it bluntly, tent hospitals and doctors having to decide which Covid patient gets a ventilator and which one gets a big shot of morphine, then that's what's going to end up happening. After all, selectively abandoning non-Covid patients to perish through lack of care capacity is already a reality in the NHS. Why should selectively abandoning Covid patients to perish as well seem so unimaginable?
Basically, if we are fortunate and this latest wave of the disease is moderate then we can all breathe a sigh of relief, and if we aren't and it's bad then there are no workable strategies left for avoiding a massacre. Draconian restrictions are over. Finished.
I'm not sure it's as "mild" as we all hope
Benedict Barclay @BarclayBenedict · 2m Replying to @BarclayBenedict The total number of people in hospital with Covid is 4,252, which is very sharply up on 2,550 last week.
Gauteng has fallen from 72% of cases to 59%, which shows that cases are now rising faster in other provinces.
The report from a couple of days ago was that 76% of the admissions testing positive with Covid were incidental infections i.e. the patient was not being admitted with Covid.
I believe that turned out to be wishful thinking bolleaux
Really? Source?
I found it last night down some 3am rabbit hole, I fear I can't find it again. Feel free to ignore, or not
Anyway, I just don't believe South African hospitals are taking in loads more people with broken limbs who just "happen" to have Covid as well
From yesterday
"South Africa's Covid Hospital Admissions More Than Double In A Day
"South Africa Covid Cases: According to the National Institute for Communicable Diseases 383 people have been admitted to hospital with the disease in the last 24 hours compared with 175 in the preceding period."
"Worst day yet for hospital admissions in South Africa. #Omicron Cases and Daily Admissions are 3x what we saw with Delta. But the silver lining is that ICU is still 72% below the most applicable Delta comparison period. How many will end up in ICU is the question. #COVID19"
Given the test positivity rate in South Africa is more than 20%, why does it surprise you that people with other ailments (cancer, eye surgery, gunshot wounds, kidney disease, etc.) might have Covid?
Enough people are now going through the whole grisly, inevitable process - infection, admission, then on to ventilation and ICU - for us to know the surge in Gauteng is real and it is Covid
There are also reports of the first deaths circling Twitter, and that statistical leap in excess deaths to consider (which might of course be random, or not, or Delta, who the F knows?)
OK time to watch Boris scratch the blackboard
So: time to nail your colours to the mast: So you think we should be strengthening measures against Covid (moving towards Lockdown), or continuing with current measures?
I said earlier that I think we should stick with what we have, and instead focus on surging the booster drive, and prepping the NHS for a big wave of new cases between now and late Jan
I fear a grim and foolish logic is, however, leading us to Plan B, and then Lockdown
And some on here are still saying Oh that will be fine, you stay home and eat chocolates.
Jesus F Christ. For many many people the last winter lockdown was pretty much unbearable
It will not be fine. But neither is having a very high rate of hospitalisation and deaths.
You fuck people and their businesses over too much, you run out of money, the health service collapses, you get the deaths anyway.
The odd thing is: we have been at war; in many ways a much worse situation, and your scenario did not come to pass.
When the country was at war the Government didn't respond by telling everybody to sit at home all the bloody time.
They did, when it was needed. 'Stay put if the invader comes.' 'Holiday at home' to prevent 'unnecessary travel'. 'Coughs and sneezes spread diseases'. .
I’m old enough to remember having been told to hide under the kitchen table in the event of the four minute warning.
Ooh yes, that too, so you didn't get in the way of the preservation of the elite in the rush to the Rotor shelters.
Over in the Commons, Tory MPs are shouting "Resign!" at Sajid Javid for announcing Covid restrictions. He's spent months trying to appease them, but in the end, he's been forced to pick a side
On topic, the worst thing from this polling is this.
Three in ten say they are less likely to follow Covid rules as a result (29%).
This rises to a third of Labour voters (33%) and those aged 18-34 (33%) who say the same.
Over half say they are just as likely to follow the rules (54%)
Whatever Boris Johnson announces tonight will be ignored by large parts of the country making us less secure.
He needs to go and be replaced by someone with the credibility and authority to launch you new Covid-19 measures.
Except it wouldn't matter if Jesus were to descend from heaven to promote any new Covid measures. First of all, the country, or a large enough fraction of it at any rate, has had enough of Covid measures and will happily ignore them if they think they can get away with it. And secondly, there's probably nothing short of a full lockdown that will do anything to seriously impede the latest version of this bloody virus, it's questionable as to whether or not even that will work, and neither the economy nor wider society can sustain an annual cycle of hokey cokey house arrest for the next thousand years.
The Government can plausibly get away with yet more masks (useless) and WFH (not useful enough,) and after that it is out of options. Reinstating large scale business support and putting about five or six million people back on furlough until various roadmap steps between April and July, let alone shutting all the schools again for the Winter, is a non-starter. And if declining to go to those lengths means, to put it bluntly, tent hospitals and doctors having to decide which Covid patient gets a ventilator and which one gets a big shot of morphine, then that's what's going to end up happening. After all, selectively abandoning non-Covid patients to perish through lack of care capacity is already a reality in the NHS. Why should selectively abandoning Covid patients to perish as well seem so unimaginable?
Basically, if we are fortunate and this latest wave of the disease is moderate then we can all breathe a sigh of relief, and if we aren't and it's bad then there are no workable strategies left for avoiding a massacre. Draconian restrictions are over. Finished.
I'm not sure it's as "mild" as we all hope
Benedict Barclay @BarclayBenedict · 2m Replying to @BarclayBenedict The total number of people in hospital with Covid is 4,252, which is very sharply up on 2,550 last week.
Gauteng has fallen from 72% of cases to 59%, which shows that cases are now rising faster in other provinces.
The report from a couple of days ago was that 76% of the admissions testing positive with Covid were incidental infections i.e. the patient was not being admitted with Covid.
I believe that turned out to be wishful thinking bolleaux
Really? Source?
I found it last night down some 3am rabbit hole, I fear I can't find it again. Feel free to ignore, or not
Anyway, I just don't believe South African hospitals are taking in loads more people with broken limbs who just "happen" to have Covid as well
From yesterday
"South Africa's Covid Hospital Admissions More Than Double In A Day
"South Africa Covid Cases: According to the National Institute for Communicable Diseases 383 people have been admitted to hospital with the disease in the last 24 hours compared with 175 in the preceding period."
"Worst day yet for hospital admissions in South Africa. #Omicron Cases and Daily Admissions are 3x what we saw with Delta. But the silver lining is that ICU is still 72% below the most applicable Delta comparison period. How many will end up in ICU is the question. #COVID19"
Given the test positivity rate in South Africa is more than 20%, why does it surprise you that people with other ailments (cancer, eye surgery, gunshot wounds, kidney disease, etc.) might have Covid?
Enough people are now going through the whole grisly, inevitable process - infection, admission, then on to ventilation and ICU - for us to know the surge in Gauteng is real and it is Covid
There are also reports of the first deaths circling Twitter, and that statistical leap in excess deaths to consider (which might of course be random, or not, or Delta, who the F knows?)
OK time to watch Boris scratch the blackboard
So: time to nail your colours to the mast: So you think we should be strengthening measures against Covid (moving towards Lockdown), or continuing with current measures?
I said earlier that I think we should stick with what we have, and instead focus on surging the booster drive, and prepping the NHS for a big wave of new cases between now and late Jan
I fear a grim and foolish logic is, however, leading us to Plan B, and then Lockdown
And some on here are still saying Oh that will be fine, you stay home and eat chocolates.
Jesus F Christ. For many many people the last winter lockdown was pretty much unbearable
It will not be fine. But neither is having a very high rate of hospitalisation and deaths.
You fuck people and their businesses over too much, you run out of money, the health service collapses, you get the deaths anyway.
The odd thing is: we have been at war; in many ways a much worse situation, and your scenario did not come to pass.
When the country was at war the Government didn't respond by telling everybody to sit at home all the bloody time.
They did, when it was needed. 'Stay put if the invader comes.' 'Holiday at home' to prevent 'unnecessary travel'. 'Coughs and sneezes spread diseases'. .
I’m old enough to remember having been told to hide under the kitchen table in the event of the four minute warning.
Not before taping brown paper over the windows I hope
Whitewash against the flash, surely. Brown paper was 1930s ARP.
Hmm table for ten booked on Sat at a local restaurant… all double jabbed… have to say I don’t think it will happen
One of my mates has Covid and feels like shit. Triple jabbed with underlying conditions… does iron man races but also canes the booze
Friend of mine had a social this week. 8 people, 2 pulled out last minute with covid in their homes.
Meanwhile, have you seen about the situation at Spurs?
This does feel eerily reminiscent to this time last year.
Generally far, far, more people now wear masks though this time - even a fair few outdoors I notice. It has become a huge culture change.
Some people get very hot under the collar about it but this probably isn't the time for a rant about mask wearing. Save that until Omicron wanes. Meantime we obviously have to take precautions.
Over in the Commons, Tory MPs are shouting "Resign!" at Sajid Javid for announcing Covid restrictions. He's spent months trying to appease them, but in the end, he's been forced to pick a side
I can’t trust a guy delivering a serious message when he lies through his teeth.
Governing is about trust and competence (or the perception of). How can any realistically be confident Johnson - who was saying no return to restrictions in the summer - will ever tel the truth.
What's the point of Plan B? It won't touch the sides with a variant this cruel
At least Boris is now saying We may have to live with it: with death and disease
Like the recent travel restrictions it's mostly to be seen to be doing something while ensuring it's as inoffensive to Tory backbenchers as possible. The point now is obviously to move the news agenda - seems like the worst of all worlds because for those who think further interventions to control cases was necessary, it's (a bit) too little and (a lot) too late; for those who don't think interventions are needed it's yet another sign of the impending apocalypse, and Boris did it.
Over in the Commons, Tory MPs are shouting "Resign!" at Sajid Javid for announcing Covid restrictions. He's spent months trying to appease them, but in the end, he's been forced to pick a side
Good, he fucking deserves it. Time for the letters to go in and get rid of Boris and put an actual bloody Conservative in charge and tell the science wankers, the NHS wankers to get fucked and deal with it.
Just been to my local petrol station/express convenience store.
“Masks are mandatory” signs up
1/2 staff masked
2/7 customers masked
People ain’t complying.
Flowery pillowcases or blue paper do nothing useful to stop Covid, and everyone knows it.
Pointless something-must-be-done-ism.
"Everyone knows it."
Well, I disagree., That means either you are mistaken, or you are, as I do not 'know' it.
Anti-maskers are only one step down from anti-vaxxers.
Get fucked Josias. Seriously, you're a fucking fool.
Perhaps Max, just perhaps, you are wrong on this.
COVID is endemic, you pro-masking wankers have got no end date. You're walking the nation into a new forever end-state. This is where we're at with COVID, it isn't going to change. Get that into your idiotic head.
'pro-masking wankers': enough said. You have nothing positive to say. I am not pro-mask - I would rather not wear one. But if I see it as wise to do so, I will. I am not pro-mask; I am not anti-mask.
"idiotic head". The truth is, I hope you are right: that these measure are not necessary. But if they do prove to be necessary, then you will be the one who is proved to be unwise. That's the difference between me and you: you are unwilling to accept any scenario aside from the one that benefits you.
Hopefully by New Year's we'll have a much better idea who was right. But if you're wrong, then there will be a heck of a lot of deaths. If I am wrong, I'll have muck thrown at me on here.
Just been to my local petrol station/express convenience store.
“Masks are mandatory” signs up
1/2 staff masked
2/7 customers masked
People ain’t complying.
Flowery pillowcases or blue paper do nothing useful to stop Covid, and everyone knows it.
Pointless something-must-be-done-ism.
"Everyone knows it."
Well, I disagree., That means either you are mistaken, or you are, as I do not 'know' it.
Anti-maskers are only one step down from anti-vaxxers.
Get fucked Josias. Seriously, you're a fucking fool.
Perhaps Max, just perhaps, you are wrong on this.
COVID is endemic, you pro-masking wankers have got no end date. You're walking the nation into a new forever end-state. This is where we're at with COVID, it isn't going to change. Get that into your idiotic head.
For all those supporting BoJo - what success has he delivered over the last 2 years?
I am not supporting him, but he got us out of the EU, got a trade deal that protected our sovereignty more than anyone said was possible, and got us a vaccine program earlier than anyone else in Europe
The one that ended the United Kingdom as a trading block and forces GB and NI companies to have export licences to sell things to each other?
If that's protecting the sovereignty of the UK I'd hate to see what not ptotecting it looks like.
Theresa May's backstop.
Infinitely worse.
Perhaps, but isn't relevant to the argument @Aslan was promoting. He said that the current trade deal - which dissolved the UK trading area - "protected our sovereignty". I now need an export license to sell products in my own country. How has that protected our sovereignty to do things like not need an export license to trade inside our own country...
I don't need you to come back in with alternative takes on external sovereignty - you have one perspective on that, I have another. But the ending of the UK as a trading nation is indisputable - we are now split in two with GB as one trading zone and NI as another trading zone. Usually deals that protect a country's sovereignty doesn't split a chunk off it.
It did protect our sovereignty because we had Article 16 so could override it. The ending is not indisputable, we'll see what the situation is post-Article 16.
There are plenty of countries that have had chunks split off, where its convenient to do so, its far from unprecedented.
On that logic while in the EU our sovereignty was protected because we could always leave.
Either in the EU we were sovereign because we could leave and there is no compromise of sovereignty over NI because we can invoke A16; or in the EU we were not sovereign and we are not sovereign now because there is no free movement of goods between GB and NI.
You are a logical debater. Which is it; it can't be both.
We were always technically sovereign, we could only exercise that sovereignty by invoking Article 50 so we rightly did when people wanted to exercise that sovereignty.
Same deal with Article 16 - and I think it should be invoked too.
So as it stands we are not sovereign because we haven't exercised it. Is that right?
If memory serves, you've been trying variants (so to speak) of this line for a couple of years now, and I'm sorry, but I think it's a stupid argument. If we our sovereignty within the EU is only present because we have the option to leave it, then we clearly aren't sovereign while we're in it, and the fact that we assented (implicitly) to that reality is irrelevant.
He who [has to] break[s] a thing to find out what it is, has left the path of wisdom.
Apology accepted. Although your point is wrong. We were always sovereign whether we decided to exercise it or not. Of course we made compromises but did so as a sovereign nation.
But that is not the point. If we were not sovereign within the EU because we hadn't "proved" it by leaving, then the NI deal means we are not sovereign because as of this moment we haven't exercised A16. It can't be both.
If you think we weren't sovereign while in the EU and aren't sovereign now because the NI deal means that there is no free movement of goods between GB and NI that is fair enough. But you can't argue for one and not the other.
We were always sovereign for both. The question is if you wanted to exercise your sovereignty or not.
The English and Welsh voted to exercise their sovereignty, hence invoking Article 50. The NI did not, hence the special arrangements.
Now if the NI wish to exercise theirs, then A16 is the right answer for them, just as it was for the UK as a whole. For the same reasons. Using the same logic.
No inconsistencies.
Excellent. So we were sovereign while in the EU: tick. And we are sovereign with this NI deal: tick.
So why all the fuss about leaving the EU to reclaim our sovereignty.
Because we wanted to exercise our sovereignty.
Not just have it in abeyance.
Philip
I remember you telling me that the main benefit of leaving the EU was to get our sovereignty back.
Now you are telling me that we had it all the time!
So why leave?
So we could exercise it.
If you only have sovereignty so long as you can't exercise it, and you want to exercise it but can't, then do you have it.
So we only have something if we use it? Obviously we "could" exercise it, we did. So obviously we had it.
Is this some weird version of "having your cake and eating it?" ....or because we don't use a nuclear weapon we don't have it?
Watching my oldest daughter;s Christmas concert (online, of course, though in fairness to the school there are some people there.) Five of the choir are wearing facemasks. Madness.
If it’s anything like the average school choir, masks would be an advantage (in the absence of earmuffs or headphones for the audience)
So, yes, 1m infections by year end is not some wild outlandish forecast.
If it is cumulative then it is obvious. We are already on 50k a day. Doesn't make sense, it's not news
As we've been saying all day, this is to move the media agenda on, there's no reason to have plan b.
It does seem like quite a big song and dance for quite a small change in the restrictions.
This is not a small change. Vaccine passports. Mandatory facemasks. This is back to square 1, fuck you Joe Public you are our bitch now stuff.
Mandatory facemasks, not enforced. Working from home, being requested. NHS Covid pass with either vaccination or a negative test which is free and takes a few mins for big events.
This is all small beer on the civil liberties front.
Far bigger issues around nationality and judicial review going on this week where the executive is really grabbing ongoing and dangerous powers.
His TV performance is absolutely sick making; It could hardly be worse. He's crucifying himself with his arrogance. Think Ceausescu on the balcony on his final day on earth
Recall Yes 17,048 (53.1%) Recall No 15,055 (48.9%) margin +1,993 (+6.2%) in favor of recalling Sawant
HOWEVER, there are nearly 11k ballots returned as of this morning that have NOT been counted, mostly last night's drop box returns plus this morning's mail returns. Plus a few more valid ballots (postmarked by Tuesday) will arrive over next few days.
And these ballots will definitely break Sawant's way. Question is, how much? She needs to get close to 60% of the remaining votes to survive. Personally think this is doable, but way too close to call right now.
This afternoon it'll likely be a different story, as today 6k or more of the uncounted ballots will be processed, tabulated and added to tonight's updated vote count.
Just been to my local petrol station/express convenience store.
“Masks are mandatory” signs up
1/2 staff masked
2/7 customers masked
People ain’t complying.
Flowery pillowcases or blue paper do nothing useful to stop Covid, and everyone knows it.
Pointless something-must-be-done-ism.
"Everyone knows it."
Well, I disagree., That means either you are mistaken, or you are, as I do not 'know' it.
Anti-maskers are only one step down from anti-vaxxers.
Get fucked Josias. Seriously, you're a fucking fool.
Perhaps Max, just perhaps, you are wrong on this.
COVID is endemic, you pro-masking wankers have got no end date. You're walking the nation into a new forever end-state. This is where we're at with COVID, it isn't going to change. Get that into your idiotic head.
Instead of foul-mouthed swearing at people on here maybe go and make yourself a cup of tea, go for a walk, do something pleasant. Rather than simply spreading unpleasantness on here.
You can get fucked as well tbh, you pro masking, pro lockdown fools are leading us all into a new end-state. There's no coming back from this because COVID is already endemic in the UK and across the world. Any measures now will have to be permanent.
This is why this is all rally sh*t timing. *If* these measures are necessary, then they're already holed below the waterline for many. And it is a totally unforced measure.
On topic, the worst thing from this polling is this.
Three in ten say they are less likely to follow Covid rules as a result (29%).
This rises to a third of Labour voters (33%) and those aged 18-34 (33%) who say the same.
Over half say they are just as likely to follow the rules (54%)
Whatever Boris Johnson announces tonight will be ignored by large parts of the country making us less secure.
He needs to go and be replaced by someone with the credibility and authority to launch you new Covid-19 measures.
Except it wouldn't matter if Jesus were to descend from heaven to promote any new Covid measures. First of all, the country, or a large enough fraction of it at any rate, has had enough of Covid measures and will happily ignore them if they think they can get away with it. And secondly, there's probably nothing short of a full lockdown that will do anything to seriously impede the latest version of this bloody virus, it's questionable as to whether or not even that will work, and neither the economy nor wider society can sustain an annual cycle of hokey cokey house arrest for the next thousand years.
The Government can plausibly get away with yet more masks (useless) and WFH (not useful enough,) and after that it is out of options. Reinstating large scale business support and putting about five or six million people back on furlough until various roadmap steps between April and July, let alone shutting all the schools again for the Winter, is a non-starter. And if declining to go to those lengths means, to put it bluntly, tent hospitals and doctors having to decide which Covid patient gets a ventilator and which one gets a big shot of morphine, then that's what's going to end up happening. After all, selectively abandoning non-Covid patients to perish through lack of care capacity is already a reality in the NHS. Why should selectively abandoning Covid patients to perish as well seem so unimaginable?
Basically, if we are fortunate and this latest wave of the disease is moderate then we can all breathe a sigh of relief, and if we aren't and it's bad then there are no workable strategies left for avoiding a massacre. Draconian restrictions are over. Finished.
I'm not sure it's as "mild" as we all hope
Benedict Barclay @BarclayBenedict · 2m Replying to @BarclayBenedict The total number of people in hospital with Covid is 4,252, which is very sharply up on 2,550 last week.
Gauteng has fallen from 72% of cases to 59%, which shows that cases are now rising faster in other provinces.
The report from a couple of days ago was that 76% of the admissions testing positive with Covid were incidental infections i.e. the patient was not being admitted with Covid.
I believe that turned out to be wishful thinking bolleaux
Really? Source?
I found it last night down some 3am rabbit hole, I fear I can't find it again. Feel free to ignore, or not
Anyway, I just don't believe South African hospitals are taking in loads more people with broken limbs who just "happen" to have Covid as well
From yesterday
"South Africa's Covid Hospital Admissions More Than Double In A Day
"South Africa Covid Cases: According to the National Institute for Communicable Diseases 383 people have been admitted to hospital with the disease in the last 24 hours compared with 175 in the preceding period."
"Worst day yet for hospital admissions in South Africa. #Omicron Cases and Daily Admissions are 3x what we saw with Delta. But the silver lining is that ICU is still 72% below the most applicable Delta comparison period. How many will end up in ICU is the question. #COVID19"
Given the test positivity rate in South Africa is more than 20%, why does it surprise you that people with other ailments (cancer, eye surgery, gunshot wounds, kidney disease, etc.) might have Covid?
Enough people are now going through the whole grisly, inevitable process - infection, admission, then on to ventilation and ICU - for us to know the surge in Gauteng is real and it is Covid
There are also reports of the first deaths circling Twitter, and that statistical leap in excess deaths to consider (which might of course be random, or not, or Delta, who the F knows?)
OK time to watch Boris scratch the blackboard
So: time to nail your colours to the mast: So you think we should be strengthening measures against Covid (moving towards Lockdown), or continuing with current measures?
I said earlier that I think we should stick with what we have, and instead focus on surging the booster drive, and prepping the NHS for a big wave of new cases between now and late Jan
I fear a grim and foolish logic is, however, leading us to Plan B, and then Lockdown
And some on here are still saying Oh that will be fine, you stay home and eat chocolates.
Jesus F Christ. For many many people the last winter lockdown was pretty much unbearable
It will not be fine. But neither is having a very high rate of hospitalisation and deaths.
You fuck people and their businesses over too much, you run out of money, the health service collapses, you get the deaths anyway.
The odd thing is: we have been at war; in many ways a much worse situation, and your scenario did not come to pass.
When the country was at war the Government didn't respond by telling everybody to sit at home all the bloody time.
They did, when it was needed. 'Stay put if the invader comes.' 'Holiday at home' to prevent 'unnecessary travel'. 'Coughs and sneezes spread diseases'. .
I’m old enough to remember having been told to hide under the kitchen table in the event of the four minute warning.
Not before taping brown paper over the windows I hope
I thought doing so actually turns out to be an incredbly effective measure?
Over in the Commons, Tory MPs are shouting "Resign!" at Sajid Javid for announcing Covid restrictions. He's spent months trying to appease them, but in the end, he's been forced to pick a side
Good, he fucking deserves it. Time for the letters to go in and get rid of Boris and put an actual bloody Conservative in charge and tell the science wankers, the NHS wankers to get fucked and deal with it.
Would also need to tell the general public, most of whom support the restrictions, to get fucked and deal with it. I'm not sure that will play out well in the next GE tbh.
This is why this is all rally sh*t timing. *If* these measures are necessary, then they're already holed below the waterline for many. And it is a totally unforced measure.
He's got to go. There's just no two ways about it, whichever side of the argument you're coming from.
Over in the Commons, Tory MPs are shouting "Resign!" at Sajid Javid for announcing Covid restrictions. He's spent months trying to appease them, but in the end, he's been forced to pick a side
Good, he fucking deserves it. Time for the letters to go in and get rid of Boris and put an actual bloody Conservative in charge and tell the science wankers, the NHS wankers to get fucked and deal with it.
The problem is the public are very much on the side of restrictions and this is seen in the way both Sturgeon and Drakeford retain their popularity and Labour will support them, and may even want to go further
The conservatives are largely out of step with public opinion on this
Comments
I predicted 1m in mid Jan as a thought experiment. Fuckola
Being a winner is his last kind of alibi and insurance policy, and if there are any more polls like that and Tory MP's gain the idea he's a loser , he's out.
So, yes, 1m infections by year end is not some wild outlandish forecast.
Pointless something-must-be-done-ism.
Well, I disagree., That means either you are mistaken, or I am, as I do not 'know' it.
Anti-maskers are only one step down from anti-vaxxers.
Another winter of this shit. God help us all
And I thought I was a pessimist!!
If you only have sovereignty so long as you can't exercise it, and you want to exercise it but can't, then do you have it.
I thought it was telling he said these measures signed off by the cabinet.....I think he wanted to go a lot further.
At least Boris is now saying We may have to live with it: with death and disease
Bye!
Also have no idea who put that phrase in my head.
One of my mates has Covid and feels like shit. Triple jabbed with underlying conditions… does iron man races but also canes the booze
fourthly, I have yet to see anyone using 'a bit of blue paper' as a mask.
https://twitter.com/RobDotHutton/status/1468646544362647557
Meanwhile, have you seen about the situation at Spurs?
This does feel eerily reminiscent to this time last year.
Generally far, far, more people now wear masks though this time - even a fair few outdoors I notice. It has become a huge culture change.
Some people get very hot under the collar about it but this probably isn't the time for a rant about mask wearing. Save that until Omicron wanes. Meantime we obviously have to take precautions.
"The PM dealt with his office Christmas party situation by cancelling everyone else's."
https://twitter.com/DamianSurvation/status/1468648390393307141
Governing is about trust and competence (or the perception of). How can any realistically be confident Johnson - who was saying no return to restrictions in the summer - will ever tel the truth.
https://twitter.com/sailorrooscout/status/1468569718420389891?s=21
"idiotic head". The truth is, I hope you are right: that these measure are not necessary. But if they do prove to be necessary, then you will be the one who is proved to be unwise. That's the difference between me and you: you are unwilling to accept any scenario aside from the one that benefits you.
Hopefully by New Year's we'll have a much better idea who was right. But if you're wrong, then there will be a heck of a lot of deaths. If I am wrong, I'll have muck thrown at me on here.
Is this some weird version of "having your cake and eating it?" ....or because we don't use a nuclear weapon we don't have it?
Oh of course no one is scared, right. This is just to be safe. To protect the NHS.
Protect the NHS from having to look after the people.
Max is right. As was @contrarian. As am I, obvs.
Working from home, being requested.
NHS Covid pass with either vaccination or a negative test which is free and takes a few mins for big events.
This is all small beer on the civil liberties front.
Far bigger issues around nationality and judicial review going on this week where the executive is really grabbing ongoing and dangerous powers.
Special Recall Election, December 7, 2021 - Seattle City Council District 3
> on recalling Councilmember Kshama Sawant from office
Registered voters 77,579 Counted Tuesday 8pm 32,129 (41%)
Recall Yes 17,048 (53.1%)
Recall No 15,055 (48.9%)
margin +1,993 (+6.2%) in favor of recalling Sawant
HOWEVER, there are nearly 11k ballots returned as of this morning that have NOT been counted, mostly last night's drop box returns plus this morning's mail returns. Plus a few more valid ballots (postmarked by Tuesday) will arrive over next few days.
And these ballots will definitely break Sawant's way. Question is, how much? She needs to get close to 60% of the remaining votes to survive. Personally think this is doable, but way too close to call right now.
This afternoon it'll likely be a different story, as today 6k or more of the uncounted ballots will be processed, tabulated and added to tonight's updated vote count.
Is this it, forever?
When even Ant and Dec are desttoying BoJo with open contempt then you know that this has really cut through.
If Shropshire North is as bad at Chesham and Amersham then panic is going to lead to a rapid end to the "World King".
Then things will get really interesting.
What was the answer?
The conservatives are largely out of step with public opinion on this