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Voodoo polling v proper polling (festive edition) – politicalbetting.com

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  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,644
    Carnyx said:

    Just to hark the herald angels back a little to what we were discussing earlier re parties -

    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/picture/2021/dec/05/ben-jennings-on-boris-johnson-and-the-no-10-christmas-party-cartoon

    That's a brutal cartoon.
  • WhisperingOracleWhisperingOracle Posts: 9,117
    edited December 2021
    RobD said:

    EU and NATO states swing behind US belief that Russia is preparing to invade Ukraine after unprecedented level of intelligence-sharing, as allies back Biden’s demand for tough deterrence package ahead of Putin call https://ft.com/content/b287f2e3-3b8b-4095-b704-c255a943c84c @FinancialTimes

    https://twitter.com/HenryJFoy/status/1467592759632543744?s=20

    Realistically NATO boots on the ground is the only thing that will really stop the Russians.
    On Saturday the US made what it described as the largest transfer ever of military equipment in one day, to the Greek port of Alexandroupoli, with a view to the Black Sea.
    Bigger than D-Day?
    I'm not quite sure, but here's what they said :

    https://twitter.com/USEmbassyAthens/status/1466822690870865923

    Another article mentioned a huge number of helicopters and materiel.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,922

    RobD said:

    EU and NATO states swing behind US belief that Russia is preparing to invade Ukraine after unprecedented level of intelligence-sharing, as allies back Biden’s demand for tough deterrence package ahead of Putin call https://ft.com/content/b287f2e3-3b8b-4095-b704-c255a943c84c @FinancialTimes

    https://twitter.com/HenryJFoy/status/1467592759632543744?s=20

    Realistically NATO boots on the ground is the only thing that will really stop the Russians.
    On Saturday the US made what it described as the largest transfer ever of military equipment in one day, to the Greek port of Alexandroupoli, with a view to the Black Sea.
    Bigger than D-Day?
    I'm not quite sure, but here's what they said :

    https://twitter.com/USEmbassyAthens/status/1466822690870865923
    In the history of the port perhaps.
  • On topic, a former MP has messaged me this.

    Turns out Alexa is shit.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vFH0JRSFjRU
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,723

    Carnyx said:

    Just to hark the herald angels back a little to what we were discussing earlier re parties -

    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/picture/2021/dec/05/ben-jennings-on-boris-johnson-and-the-no-10-christmas-party-cartoon

    That's a brutal cartoon.
    It is indeed.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,723
    ydoethur said:

    RobD said:

    EU and NATO states swing behind US belief that Russia is preparing to invade Ukraine after unprecedented level of intelligence-sharing, as allies back Biden’s demand for tough deterrence package ahead of Putin call https://ft.com/content/b287f2e3-3b8b-4095-b704-c255a943c84c @FinancialTimes

    https://twitter.com/HenryJFoy/status/1467592759632543744?s=20

    Realistically NATO boots on the ground is the only thing that will really stop the Russians.
    On Saturday the US made what it described as the largest transfer ever of military equipment in one day, to the Greek port of Alexandroupoli, with a view to the Black Sea.
    Bigger than D-Day?
    If it's bigger than Okinawa it must be going some.
    Not sure. A modern ro-ro ship landing at a friendly port could offload an awful lot of material very quickly.
  • BigRichBigRich Posts: 3,492

    If Omicron really does spread like wildfire and it must have been around in largely unvaccinated South Africa for several weeks, wouldn't we be expecting an Italy style situation by now if if was really dangerous?

    Also appears to have a shorter incubation period. I think if it was as serious as Delta, we'd have known about it by now. So far, it's looking like it's highly transmissible, but much milder than other variants. We do, of course, need more data, but so far the signs seem quite encouraging to me.
    we defiantly still need more data, but I'm feeling more confidant in my cynical prediction that we will regret the travel ban from southern Africa, as we discover that omicron is less deadly but also gives a level of immunity to other variants!!!!

    A few weeks ago a prominent German decarded that 'by the end of the winter, everybody will have been vaccinated, recovered or dead!'

    I think that we can refine that now to 'Vaccinated, Omicroned, Recovered (from Delta) or Dead'

    Vaccinated may be better than Omicroned, but Omicroned is better that than the last too.

    The more people who get Omicron soon, the less will be left to get Delta, next week/month and therefor less overall death. OK not enough data to say this is definably correct, and I am more joking than anything else, but maybe we should be paying people with Omicron to come to the UK and socialize as much as possible?
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,048
    Been out all day... but

    Cases by specimen date

    image
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,048
    Local R

    image
  • darkagedarkage Posts: 5,389

    EU and NATO states swing behind US belief that Russia is preparing to invade Ukraine after unprecedented level of intelligence-sharing, as allies back Biden’s demand for tough deterrence package ahead of Putin call https://ft.com/content/b287f2e3-3b8b-4095-b704-c255a943c84c @FinancialTimes

    https://twitter.com/HenryJFoy/status/1467592759632543744?s=20

    Realistically NATO boots on the ground is the only thing that will really stop the Russians.
    I've said before that dealing with Russia is a case of containment. You just have to draw the line somewhere and hold it; and from that point it starts to become possible to deal with the Russian regime rather than from the current position of dithering, grandiose rhetoric, huffing and puffing, various sanctions - basically cowardice.

    The Russians will keep testing and I suspect that there will never be a 'boots on the ground' response because it won't be politically possible. So they will probably eventually sweep up a large part of Eastern Europe unopposed; it will not be an invasion, but compliant regimes. And all this could happen very quickly.

  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,048
    Case summary

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  • WhisperingOracleWhisperingOracle Posts: 9,117
    edited December 2021
    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    EU and NATO states swing behind US belief that Russia is preparing to invade Ukraine after unprecedented level of intelligence-sharing, as allies back Biden’s demand for tough deterrence package ahead of Putin call https://ft.com/content/b287f2e3-3b8b-4095-b704-c255a943c84c @FinancialTimes

    https://twitter.com/HenryJFoy/status/1467592759632543744?s=20

    Realistically NATO boots on the ground is the only thing that will really stop the Russians.
    On Saturday the US made what it described as the largest transfer ever of military equipment in one day, to the Greek port of Alexandroupoli, with a view to the Black Sea.
    Bigger than D-Day?
    I'm not quite sure, but here's what they said :

    https://twitter.com/USEmbassyAthens/status/1466822690870865923
    In the history of the port perhaps.
    That's what I assumed originally, too, but another article mentioned about a thousand armoured vehicles and hundreds of helicopters and aircraft. That sounded much more like something much separate from the history of the port itself, but who knows.

    At the very least, BIden is clearly massively beefing up the US's presence in and around the Black Sea area.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,048
    UK hospitals

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  • ThomasNasheThomasNashe Posts: 5,331
    edited December 2021
    BigRich said:

    If Omicron really does spread like wildfire and it must have been around in largely unvaccinated South Africa for several weeks, wouldn't we be expecting an Italy style situation by now if if was really dangerous?

    Also appears to have a shorter incubation period. I think if it was as serious as Delta, we'd have known about it by now. So far, it's looking like it's highly transmissible, but much milder than other variants. We do, of course, need more data, but so far the signs seem quite encouraging to me.
    we defiantly still need more data, but I'm feeling more confidant in my cynical prediction that we will regret the travel ban from southern Africa, as we discover that omicron is less deadly but also gives a level of immunity to other variants!!!!

    A few weeks ago a prominent German decarded that 'by the end of the winter, everybody will have been vaccinated, recovered or dead!'

    I think that we can refine that now to 'Vaccinated, Omicroned, Recovered (from Delta) or Dead'

    Vaccinated may be better than Omicroned, but Omicroned is better that than the last too.

    The more people who get Omicron soon, the less will be left to get Delta, next week/month and therefor less overall death. OK not enough data to say this is definably correct, and I am more joking than anything else, but maybe we should be paying people with Omicron to come to the UK and socialize as much as possible?
    OK. Though if having had Delta doesn't protect you from Omicron then it quite possibly doesn't work the other way round either.

    Agree though that the travel ban will probably look like a mistake: pointless at best, given that Omicon has already established itself here. And really damaging to SA.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,048
    UK deaths

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  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 18,276
    edited December 2021

    Lockdown incoming, we have lost control of the virus yet again

    No we haven’t. We still don’t know how serious omicron will be. If most cases are mild, there will be no issue. We anxiously wait on hard data, and must make do with anecdotes in the interim. Some good news today from SA. All is not lost.
    Yes. Given the fact that most SA medics say this is a mild(er) variant, some early analysis suggest it’s a mild(er) variant and most patients are presenting with mild(er) symptoms, is there not a whiff of a chance that it is, er, a milder variant?
    It's unlikely that the variant is itself inherently milder, just that immunity evasion is on a sliding scale, and a variant can more easily evade immunity enough to infect everyone again, without evading immunity sufficiently to make people seriously ill.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,048
    UK age related data

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  • Nigelb said:

    maaarsh said:

    That was some stupid shit. The "brake test" was moronic but wasn't quite as black and white as suggested. Loved the Mercedes / Masi call where they protested about knowing nothing about it and Masi points out he told the guy personally.

    But - and its a big but. Don't start moving around when you're handing the place over. Verstappen is going to get his arse kicked. Can we also talk about the repeated "racecraft" incidents including both Hamilton and Arse on the go slow?

    Hamilton will win the title and deservedly so. But can we please avoid this shitbox race next year?

    Max slammed the brakes on as he wanted Lewis to overtake before DRS detection point so he could re-overtake 2 seconds later. It shows what a lunatic he is he thought that would be an outcome which wouldn't generate a penalty.
    What rule does that break? If it doesn't break any, that seems like clever tactics.

    Leaving the track and cutting the corner seemed a bigger issue to me.
    He was weaving unpredictably across the track and then braked sharply.
    There is absolutely no reason for Hamilton to run into him (risking a DNF which would have ended his championship challenge) other than being taken by surprise. You don’t brake test someone when you’ve been instructed to let them past,
    I didn't realise he'd been instructed to let him past, I thought that Hamilton was just overtaking him when he did that, in which case it seems sensible.
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,519
    darkage said:

    EU and NATO states swing behind US belief that Russia is preparing to invade Ukraine after unprecedented level of intelligence-sharing, as allies back Biden’s demand for tough deterrence package ahead of Putin call https://ft.com/content/b287f2e3-3b8b-4095-b704-c255a943c84c @FinancialTimes

    https://twitter.com/HenryJFoy/status/1467592759632543744?s=20

    Realistically NATO boots on the ground is the only thing that will really stop the Russians.
    I've said before that dealing with Russia is a case of containment. You just have to draw the line somewhere and hold it; and from that point it starts to become possible to deal with the Russian regime rather than from the current position of dithering, grandiose rhetoric, huffing and puffing, various sanctions - basically cowardice.

    The Russians will keep testing and I suspect that there will never be a 'boots on the ground' response because it won't be politically possible. So they will probably eventually sweep up a large part of Eastern Europe unopposed; it will not be an invasion, but compliant regimes. And all this could happen very quickly.

    I'm a bit sceptical. The Ukraine has played the "Russians poised to invade" card every month for quite a while now, and because they DID invade previously it looks credible and of course they're nervous, but I don't see that Putin gets much out of it except a rebellious population. My guess is he'll trade a pullback for Germany opening the controversial gas pipeline.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,048
    COVID summary

    - Cases rising nationally, with the falls in the older groups levelling off.
    - Admissions have pretty much stopped falling.
    - Deaths still falling
  • eekeek Posts: 28,270

    COVID summary

    - Cases rising nationally, with the falls in the older groups levelling off.
    - Admissions have pretty much stopped falling.
    - Deaths still falling

    Admissions leads deaths by 10 or so days though - so we still need to wait and see if the connections are broken.
  • Farooq said:

    F1 is boring, just cars whizzing around in a circle. Also causes pollution, because the vehicles aren't electric.

    So there!

    Actually F1 has quite possibly been very good for the environment, not negative for it.

    A lot of technological and efficiency advances have been developed for F1 vehicles that have then reached general vehicles as a result. Since there's only a few F1 vehicles but there's billions of general vehicles, improving efficiency in general vehicles more than makes up for any fuel consumed in F1.
    That very much reminds me of the argument that Christianity has been a force for good because look at all the paintings, look at all the architecture. It's difficult to know what artistic works would have been made without religion "driving" it. Perhaps as much? Perhaps less? Perhaps more? Kind of difficult to quantify.
    Not the same thing at all.

    Christianity crowded out and put down every alternative. F1 hasn't done the same thing at all.

    If F1 fans had murdered every other sport or motor initiative then it might be remotely comparable.
  • South Africa COVID update:

    - New cases: 11,125
    - Average: 10,041 (+1,181)
    - Positivity rate: 23.8% (-)
    - In hospital: 3,268 (+13)
    - In ICU: 278 (-5)
    - New deaths: 1
    - Average: 24 (-)
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,321
    edited December 2021
    Zhao wins the UK Championship.

    A worthy winner given who he's beaten on the way.
  • darkagedarkage Posts: 5,389
    I have come around to the view that nationalism in inevitable; a state of affairs rooted deep in human nature. This insight came to me from living in other European countries; whilst they were outwardly progressive and enthusiastic about the European union, I eventually came to the view that they would never move beyond being a nation state. The only country that ever genuinely moved beyond nationalism for a brief period was the UK, it became aware of its mistake by 2016.

  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,509
    Well, that was an interesting / farcical F1 race - and it’s not over yet, with a stewards’ enquiry still ongoing.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,321

    Farooq said:

    F1 is boring, just cars whizzing around in a circle. Also causes pollution, because the vehicles aren't electric.

    So there!

    Actually F1 has quite possibly been very good for the environment, not negative for it.

    A lot of technological and efficiency advances have been developed for F1 vehicles that have then reached general vehicles as a result. Since there's only a few F1 vehicles but there's billions of general vehicles, improving efficiency in general vehicles more than makes up for any fuel consumed in F1.
    That very much reminds me of the argument that Christianity has been a force for good because look at all the paintings, look at all the architecture. It's difficult to know what artistic works would have been made without religion "driving" it. Perhaps as much? Perhaps less? Perhaps more? Kind of difficult to quantify.
    Not the same thing at all.

    Christianity crowded out and put down every alternative. F1 hasn't done the same thing at all.

    If F1 fans had murdered every other sport or motor initiative then it might be remotely comparable.
    TSE might tell you that's Verstappen's ultimate goal :smile:
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 23,479

    Lockdown incoming, we have lost control of the virus yet again

    No we haven’t. We still don’t know how serious omicron will be. If most cases are mild, there will be no issue. We anxiously wait on hard data, and must make do with anecdotes in the interim. Some good news today from SA. All is not lost.
    Yes. Given the fact that most SA medics say this is a mild(er) variant, some early analysis suggest it’s a mild(er) variant and most patients are presenting with mild(er) symptoms, is there not a whiff of a chance that it is, er, a milder variant?
    It's unlikely that the variant is itself inherently milder, just that immunity evasion is on a sliding scale, and a variant can more easily evade immunity enough to infect everyone again, without evading immunity sufficiently to make people seriously ill.
    Sounds very plausible, but is there much evidence that it’s equal or more virulent as Delta?
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 70,933
    edited December 2021

    Nigelb said:

    maaarsh said:

    That was some stupid shit. The "brake test" was moronic but wasn't quite as black and white as suggested. Loved the Mercedes / Masi call where they protested about knowing nothing about it and Masi points out he told the guy personally.

    But - and its a big but. Don't start moving around when you're handing the place over. Verstappen is going to get his arse kicked. Can we also talk about the repeated "racecraft" incidents including both Hamilton and Arse on the go slow?

    Hamilton will win the title and deservedly so. But can we please avoid this shitbox race next year?

    Max slammed the brakes on as he wanted Lewis to overtake before DRS detection point so he could re-overtake 2 seconds later. It shows what a lunatic he is he thought that would be an outcome which wouldn't generate a penalty.
    What rule does that break? If it doesn't break any, that seems like clever tactics.

    Leaving the track and cutting the corner seemed a bigger issue to me.
    He was weaving unpredictably across the track and then braked sharply.
    There is absolutely no reason for Hamilton to run into him (risking a DNF which would have ended his championship challenge) other than being taken by surprise. You don’t brake test someone when you’ve been instructed to let them past,
    I didn't realise he'd been instructed to let him past, I thought that Hamilton was just overtaking him when he did that, in which case it seems sensible.
    In Verstappen’s (semi) defence*, for this particular event, it appears that race control instructed Red Bull to give up the place, and neglected to inform Mercedes. That seems to have contributed to the incident.

    *which is not to say that his driving today wasn’t well beyond what’s acceptable.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,048
    eek said:

    COVID summary

    - Cases rising nationally, with the falls in the older groups levelling off.
    - Admissions have pretty much stopped falling.
    - Deaths still falling

    Admissions leads deaths by 10 or so days though - so we still need to wait and see if the connections are broken.
    Consider

    image
    image
    image
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,490
    BigRich said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "Latest data, looking good
    Dr. John Campbell"

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Paq17X6ucQ

    "rapid herd immunity at minimal cost in morbidity and mortality...."

    Fingers crossed.....
    Just watched the video, it does look like good news, very transmissible, but very milled symptoms.

    Clearly too soon to say for defiant, but the but the early indication are pointing that way.
    I hope so. Does anyone think Dr Campbell is being too optimistic?
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,321
    Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    maaarsh said:

    That was some stupid shit. The "brake test" was moronic but wasn't quite as black and white as suggested. Loved the Mercedes / Masi call where they protested about knowing nothing about it and Masi points out he told the guy personally.

    But - and its a big but. Don't start moving around when you're handing the place over. Verstappen is going to get his arse kicked. Can we also talk about the repeated "racecraft" incidents including both Hamilton and Arse on the go slow?

    Hamilton will win the title and deservedly so. But can we please avoid this shitbox race next year?

    Max slammed the brakes on as he wanted Lewis to overtake before DRS detection point so he could re-overtake 2 seconds later. It shows what a lunatic he is he thought that would be an outcome which wouldn't generate a penalty.
    What rule does that break? If it doesn't break any, that seems like clever tactics.

    Leaving the track and cutting the corner seemed a bigger issue to me.
    He was weaving unpredictably across the track and then braked sharply.
    There is absolutely no reason for Hamilton to run into him (risking a DNF which would have ended his championship challenge) other than being taken by surprise. You don’t brake test someone when you’ve been instructed to let them past,
    I didn't realise he'd been instructed to let him past, I thought that Hamilton was just overtaking him when he did that, in which case it seems sensible.
    In Verstappen’s (semi) defence, for this particular event, it appears that race control instructed Red Bull to give up the place, and neglected to inform Mercedes. That seems to have contributed to the incident.
    But race control were adamant they did inform Mercedes - although Mercedes claim otherwise, but then they're Horner with German accents.

    That may be why Hamilton is also in front of the stewards.
  • RattersRatters Posts: 1,074

    South Africa COVID update:

    - New cases: 11,125
    - Average: 10,041 (+1,181)
    - Positivity rate: 23.8% (-)
    - In hospital: 3,268 (+13)
    - In ICU: 278 (-5)
    - New deaths: 1
    - Average: 24 (-)

    Hospitalisations aren't as high or rising as quickly as I'd have feared given that positivity rate.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 70,933

    darkage said:

    EU and NATO states swing behind US belief that Russia is preparing to invade Ukraine after unprecedented level of intelligence-sharing, as allies back Biden’s demand for tough deterrence package ahead of Putin call https://ft.com/content/b287f2e3-3b8b-4095-b704-c255a943c84c @FinancialTimes

    https://twitter.com/HenryJFoy/status/1467592759632543744?s=20

    Realistically NATO boots on the ground is the only thing that will really stop the Russians.
    I've said before that dealing with Russia is a case of containment. You just have to draw the line somewhere and hold it; and from that point it starts to become possible to deal with the Russian regime rather than from the current position of dithering, grandiose rhetoric, huffing and puffing, various sanctions - basically cowardice.

    The Russians will keep testing and I suspect that there will never be a 'boots on the ground' response because it won't be politically possible. So they will probably eventually sweep up a large part of Eastern Europe unopposed; it will not be an invasion, but compliant regimes. And all this could happen very quickly.

    I'm a bit sceptical. The Ukraine has played the "Russians poised to invade" card every month for quite a while now, and because they DID invade previously it looks credible and of course they're nervous, but I don't see that Putin gets much out of it except a rebellious population. My guess is he'll trade a pullback for Germany opening the controversial gas pipeline.
    I think that’s Panglossian, Nick.
    It fails to acknowledge Putin’s ideological drive to retake what he sees as lost territory.
    It ain’t just Ukraine who is assessing this likely risk.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,048
    darkage said:

    I have come around to the view that nationalism in inevitable; a state of affairs rooted deep in human nature. This insight came to me from living in other European countries; whilst they were outwardly progressive and enthusiastic about the European union, I eventually came to the view that they would never move beyond being a nation state. The only country that ever genuinely moved beyond nationalism for a brief period was the UK, it became aware of its mistake by 2016.

    Read the Orwell link I posted below.

    Nationalism is simply the familial/tribal loyalty moved to a larger arena.

    Her history, it has moved up to counties (Wessex was a country once). Then national units. Then supra-national units.

    Euro-nationalism is simply another example of this type of belief structure.
  • darkagedarkage Posts: 5,389

    darkage said:

    EU and NATO states swing behind US belief that Russia is preparing to invade Ukraine after unprecedented level of intelligence-sharing, as allies back Biden’s demand for tough deterrence package ahead of Putin call https://ft.com/content/b287f2e3-3b8b-4095-b704-c255a943c84c @FinancialTimes

    https://twitter.com/HenryJFoy/status/1467592759632543744?s=20

    Realistically NATO boots on the ground is the only thing that will really stop the Russians.
    I've said before that dealing with Russia is a case of containment. You just have to draw the line somewhere and hold it; and from that point it starts to become possible to deal with the Russian regime rather than from the current position of dithering, grandiose rhetoric, huffing and puffing, various sanctions - basically cowardice.

    The Russians will keep testing and I suspect that there will never be a 'boots on the ground' response because it won't be politically possible. So they will probably eventually sweep up a large part of Eastern Europe unopposed; it will not be an invasion, but compliant regimes. And all this could happen very quickly.

    I'm a bit sceptical. The Ukraine has played the "Russians poised to invade" card every month for quite a while now, and because they DID invade previously it looks credible and of course they're nervous, but I don't see that Putin gets much out of it except a rebellious population. My guess is he'll trade a pullback for Germany opening the controversial gas pipeline.
    Yes - I don't think they really want to invade anywhere, in the traditional sense. Just influence and compliant governments. Its not all that different to the antics of the US in the 20th Century. But after Iraq and Afghanistan , I doubt any more invasions are on the cards.
  • Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    maaarsh said:

    That was some stupid shit. The "brake test" was moronic but wasn't quite as black and white as suggested. Loved the Mercedes / Masi call where they protested about knowing nothing about it and Masi points out he told the guy personally.

    But - and its a big but. Don't start moving around when you're handing the place over. Verstappen is going to get his arse kicked. Can we also talk about the repeated "racecraft" incidents including both Hamilton and Arse on the go slow?

    Hamilton will win the title and deservedly so. But can we please avoid this shitbox race next year?

    Max slammed the brakes on as he wanted Lewis to overtake before DRS detection point so he could re-overtake 2 seconds later. It shows what a lunatic he is he thought that would be an outcome which wouldn't generate a penalty.
    What rule does that break? If it doesn't break any, that seems like clever tactics.

    Leaving the track and cutting the corner seemed a bigger issue to me.
    He was weaving unpredictably across the track and then braked sharply.
    There is absolutely no reason for Hamilton to run into him (risking a DNF which would have ended his championship challenge) other than being taken by surprise. You don’t brake test someone when you’ve been instructed to let them past,
    I didn't realise he'd been instructed to let him past, I thought that Hamilton was just overtaking him when he did that, in which case it seems sensible.
    In Verstappen’s (semi) defence*, for this particular event, it appears that race control instructed Red Bull to give up the place, and neglected to inform Mercedes. That seems to have contributed to the incident.

    *which is not to say that his driving today wasn’t well beyond what’s acceptable.
    Masi told Mercedes.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,048
    Nigelb said:

    darkage said:

    EU and NATO states swing behind US belief that Russia is preparing to invade Ukraine after unprecedented level of intelligence-sharing, as allies back Biden’s demand for tough deterrence package ahead of Putin call https://ft.com/content/b287f2e3-3b8b-4095-b704-c255a943c84c @FinancialTimes

    https://twitter.com/HenryJFoy/status/1467592759632543744?s=20

    Realistically NATO boots on the ground is the only thing that will really stop the Russians.
    I've said before that dealing with Russia is a case of containment. You just have to draw the line somewhere and hold it; and from that point it starts to become possible to deal with the Russian regime rather than from the current position of dithering, grandiose rhetoric, huffing and puffing, various sanctions - basically cowardice.

    The Russians will keep testing and I suspect that there will never be a 'boots on the ground' response because it won't be politically possible. So they will probably eventually sweep up a large part of Eastern Europe unopposed; it will not be an invasion, but compliant regimes. And all this could happen very quickly.

    I'm a bit sceptical. The Ukraine has played the "Russians poised to invade" card every month for quite a while now, and because they DID invade previously it looks credible and of course they're nervous, but I don't see that Putin gets much out of it except a rebellious population. My guess is he'll trade a pullback for Germany opening the controversial gas pipeline.
    I think that’s Panglossian, Nick.
    It fails to acknowledge Putin’s ideological drive to retake what he sees as lost territory.
    It ain’t just Ukraine who is assessing this likely risk.
    According to people who actual knew Putin, he is a Greater Russian Nationalist. Its is an article of that faith, that any territory that Russia has ever held must be part of Russia again, going all the way back to the Tsars.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,321

    Nigelb said:

    darkage said:

    EU and NATO states swing behind US belief that Russia is preparing to invade Ukraine after unprecedented level of intelligence-sharing, as allies back Biden’s demand for tough deterrence package ahead of Putin call https://ft.com/content/b287f2e3-3b8b-4095-b704-c255a943c84c @FinancialTimes

    https://twitter.com/HenryJFoy/status/1467592759632543744?s=20

    Realistically NATO boots on the ground is the only thing that will really stop the Russians.
    I've said before that dealing with Russia is a case of containment. You just have to draw the line somewhere and hold it; and from that point it starts to become possible to deal with the Russian regime rather than from the current position of dithering, grandiose rhetoric, huffing and puffing, various sanctions - basically cowardice.

    The Russians will keep testing and I suspect that there will never be a 'boots on the ground' response because it won't be politically possible. So they will probably eventually sweep up a large part of Eastern Europe unopposed; it will not be an invasion, but compliant regimes. And all this could happen very quickly.

    I'm a bit sceptical. The Ukraine has played the "Russians poised to invade" card every month for quite a while now, and because they DID invade previously it looks credible and of course they're nervous, but I don't see that Putin gets much out of it except a rebellious population. My guess is he'll trade a pullback for Germany opening the controversial gas pipeline.
    I think that’s Panglossian, Nick.
    It fails to acknowledge Putin’s ideological drive to retake what he sees as lost territory.
    It ain’t just Ukraine who is assessing this likely risk.
    According to people who actual knew Putin, he is a Greater Russian Nationalist. Its is an article of that faith, that any territory that Russia has ever held must be part of Russia again, going all the way back to the Tsars.
    Surely he wouldn't invade Poland and Finland?
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 18,276
    edited December 2021

    Lockdown incoming, we have lost control of the virus yet again

    No we haven’t. We still don’t know how serious omicron will be. If most cases are mild, there will be no issue. We anxiously wait on hard data, and must make do with anecdotes in the interim. Some good news today from SA. All is not lost.
    Yes. Given the fact that most SA medics say this is a mild(er) variant, some early analysis suggest it’s a mild(er) variant and most patients are presenting with mild(er) symptoms, is there not a whiff of a chance that it is, er, a milder variant?
    It's unlikely that the variant is itself inherently milder, just that immunity evasion is on a sliding scale, and a variant can more easily evade immunity enough to infect everyone again, without evading immunity sufficiently to make people seriously ill.
    Sounds very plausible, but is there much evidence that it’s equal or more virulent as Delta?
    Well, eventually you run out of any immune-naive populations and so it's both impossible to tell and moot, but it's a vital difference for countries like Germany to keep in mind, because they probably still have a decent number of immune-naive oldsters.

    You can't tell from the South African figures because it's reckoned pretty much everyone caught it in previous waves. So we just don't know yet.

    Simplest thing is to assume it's no more or less deadly in the immune-naive. No evidence to conclude anything else.
  • FrankBoothFrankBooth Posts: 9,806

    darkage said:

    EU and NATO states swing behind US belief that Russia is preparing to invade Ukraine after unprecedented level of intelligence-sharing, as allies back Biden’s demand for tough deterrence package ahead of Putin call https://ft.com/content/b287f2e3-3b8b-4095-b704-c255a943c84c @FinancialTimes

    https://twitter.com/HenryJFoy/status/1467592759632543744?s=20

    Realistically NATO boots on the ground is the only thing that will really stop the Russians.
    I've said before that dealing with Russia is a case of containment. You just have to draw the line somewhere and hold it; and from that point it starts to become possible to deal with the Russian regime rather than from the current position of dithering, grandiose rhetoric, huffing and puffing, various sanctions - basically cowardice.

    The Russians will keep testing and I suspect that there will never be a 'boots on the ground' response because it won't be politically possible. So they will probably eventually sweep up a large part of Eastern Europe unopposed; it will not be an invasion, but compliant regimes. And all this could happen very quickly.

    I'm a bit sceptical. The Ukraine has played the "Russians poised to invade" card every month for quite a while now, and because they DID invade previously it looks credible and of course they're nervous, but I don't see that Putin gets much out of it except a rebellious population. My guess is he'll trade a pullback for Germany opening the controversial gas pipeline.
    Trouble is by invading Crimea he managed to unite Ukraine. Pro Russian politicians seem on the slide there. My guess is he wants some kind of guarantee about NATO membership being off the table or intervening in such a way that Ukraine is a failed state. Putin can't afford for Zelensky to succeed. He might also be testing the new German government.
  • maaarshmaaarsh Posts: 3,587

    Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    maaarsh said:

    That was some stupid shit. The "brake test" was moronic but wasn't quite as black and white as suggested. Loved the Mercedes / Masi call where they protested about knowing nothing about it and Masi points out he told the guy personally.

    But - and its a big but. Don't start moving around when you're handing the place over. Verstappen is going to get his arse kicked. Can we also talk about the repeated "racecraft" incidents including both Hamilton and Arse on the go slow?

    Hamilton will win the title and deservedly so. But can we please avoid this shitbox race next year?

    Max slammed the brakes on as he wanted Lewis to overtake before DRS detection point so he could re-overtake 2 seconds later. It shows what a lunatic he is he thought that would be an outcome which wouldn't generate a penalty.
    What rule does that break? If it doesn't break any, that seems like clever tactics.

    Leaving the track and cutting the corner seemed a bigger issue to me.
    He was weaving unpredictably across the track and then braked sharply.
    There is absolutely no reason for Hamilton to run into him (risking a DNF which would have ended his championship challenge) other than being taken by surprise. You don’t brake test someone when you’ve been instructed to let them past,
    I didn't realise he'd been instructed to let him past, I thought that Hamilton was just overtaking him when he did that, in which case it seems sensible.
    In Verstappen’s (semi) defence*, for this particular event, it appears that race control instructed Red Bull to give up the place, and neglected to inform Mercedes. That seems to have contributed to the incident.

    *which is not to say that his driving today wasn’t well beyond what’s acceptable.
    Masi told Mercedes.
    He told them 2nd. Given the incident happened 54 seconds after Max's initial foul, the time taken to decide, then speak to Red Bull and hear their response, then speak to Merc, note remotely surprising the message had not reached Lewis.
  • darkagedarkage Posts: 5,389

    darkage said:

    I have come around to the view that nationalism in inevitable; a state of affairs rooted deep in human nature. This insight came to me from living in other European countries; whilst they were outwardly progressive and enthusiastic about the European union, I eventually came to the view that they would never move beyond being a nation state. The only country that ever genuinely moved beyond nationalism for a brief period was the UK, it became aware of its mistake by 2016.

    Read the Orwell link I posted below.

    Nationalism is simply the familial/tribal loyalty moved to a larger arena.

    Her history, it has moved up to counties (Wessex was a country once). Then national units. Then supra-national units.

    Euro-nationalism is simply another example of this type of belief structure.
    I will do. But its just a conclusion that I came to myself. I used to be an internationalist but found that to be irreconcilable with my experience of people.

    Euro nationalism may just turn out to be the most disastrous idea of the last hundred years.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,386
    ydoethur said:

    Zhao wins the UK Championship.

    A worthy winner given who he's beaten on the way.

    He's been one of my favourite players for a while. So smooth, gifted and smiley. But also been dreadfully inconsistent and flaky. Slowed down, got a semblance of a safety game, and suddenly it's all come together.
    Only two players in Top 16 are under 30 now. Both the Chinese.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 18,276
    Ratters said:

    South Africa COVID update:

    - New cases: 11,125
    - Average: 10,041 (+1,181)
    - Positivity rate: 23.8% (-)
    - In hospital: 3,268 (+13)
    - In ICU: 278 (-5)
    - New deaths: 1
    - Average: 24 (-)

    Hospitalisations aren't as high or rising as quickly as I'd have feared given that positivity rate.
    According to John Burns Murdoch, the FT stats/charts guy, the SA hospitalizations data is heavily updated in arrears, so it's hard to make statements in real-time about how fast it is going up.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,048
    ydoethur said:

    Nigelb said:

    darkage said:

    EU and NATO states swing behind US belief that Russia is preparing to invade Ukraine after unprecedented level of intelligence-sharing, as allies back Biden’s demand for tough deterrence package ahead of Putin call https://ft.com/content/b287f2e3-3b8b-4095-b704-c255a943c84c @FinancialTimes

    https://twitter.com/HenryJFoy/status/1467592759632543744?s=20

    Realistically NATO boots on the ground is the only thing that will really stop the Russians.
    I've said before that dealing with Russia is a case of containment. You just have to draw the line somewhere and hold it; and from that point it starts to become possible to deal with the Russian regime rather than from the current position of dithering, grandiose rhetoric, huffing and puffing, various sanctions - basically cowardice.

    The Russians will keep testing and I suspect that there will never be a 'boots on the ground' response because it won't be politically possible. So they will probably eventually sweep up a large part of Eastern Europe unopposed; it will not be an invasion, but compliant regimes. And all this could happen very quickly.

    I'm a bit sceptical. The Ukraine has played the "Russians poised to invade" card every month for quite a while now, and because they DID invade previously it looks credible and of course they're nervous, but I don't see that Putin gets much out of it except a rebellious population. My guess is he'll trade a pullback for Germany opening the controversial gas pipeline.
    I think that’s Panglossian, Nick.
    It fails to acknowledge Putin’s ideological drive to retake what he sees as lost territory.
    It ain’t just Ukraine who is assessing this likely risk.
    According to people who actual knew Putin, he is a Greater Russian Nationalist. Its is an article of that faith, that any territory that Russia has ever held must be part of Russia again, going all the way back to the Tsars.
    Surely he wouldn't invade Poland and Finland?
    Only because he *can't*

    He's not mad or stupid like... the Austrian street artist.

    Invading either would kick off the alliance systems* against him.

    As he sees it, Ukraine was abandoned outside the defences of Europe when Europe and the US didn't follow through on the promises made when the Ukrainians gave up nuclear weapons.

    Another bite out of Ukraine would be extremely popular in ultra-nationalist circles in Russia.

    *NATO, EU etc etc.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 70,933
    darkage said:

    darkage said:

    EU and NATO states swing behind US belief that Russia is preparing to invade Ukraine after unprecedented level of intelligence-sharing, as allies back Biden’s demand for tough deterrence package ahead of Putin call https://ft.com/content/b287f2e3-3b8b-4095-b704-c255a943c84c @FinancialTimes

    https://twitter.com/HenryJFoy/status/1467592759632543744?s=20

    Realistically NATO boots on the ground is the only thing that will really stop the Russians.
    I've said before that dealing with Russia is a case of containment. You just have to draw the line somewhere and hold it; and from that point it starts to become possible to deal with the Russian regime rather than from the current position of dithering, grandiose rhetoric, huffing and puffing, various sanctions - basically cowardice.

    The Russians will keep testing and I suspect that there will never be a 'boots on the ground' response because it won't be politically possible. So they will probably eventually sweep up a large part of Eastern Europe unopposed; it will not be an invasion, but compliant regimes. And all this could happen very quickly.

    I'm a bit sceptical. The Ukraine has played the "Russians poised to invade" card every month for quite a while now, and because they DID invade previously it looks credible and of course they're nervous, but I don't see that Putin gets much out of it except a rebellious population. My guess is he'll trade a pullback for Germany opening the controversial gas pipeline.
    Yes - I don't think they really want to invade anywhere, in the traditional sense. Just influence and compliant governments. Its not all that different to the antics of the US in the 20th Century. But after Iraq and Afghanistan , I doubt any more invasions are on the cards.
    And Crimea.

    And an average of 2000 have died every year for the last seven years fighting in the Donbas.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 18,276
    ydoethur said:

    Nigelb said:

    darkage said:

    EU and NATO states swing behind US belief that Russia is preparing to invade Ukraine after unprecedented level of intelligence-sharing, as allies back Biden’s demand for tough deterrence package ahead of Putin call https://ft.com/content/b287f2e3-3b8b-4095-b704-c255a943c84c @FinancialTimes

    https://twitter.com/HenryJFoy/status/1467592759632543744?s=20

    Realistically NATO boots on the ground is the only thing that will really stop the Russians.
    I've said before that dealing with Russia is a case of containment. You just have to draw the line somewhere and hold it; and from that point it starts to become possible to deal with the Russian regime rather than from the current position of dithering, grandiose rhetoric, huffing and puffing, various sanctions - basically cowardice.

    The Russians will keep testing and I suspect that there will never be a 'boots on the ground' response because it won't be politically possible. So they will probably eventually sweep up a large part of Eastern Europe unopposed; it will not be an invasion, but compliant regimes. And all this could happen very quickly.

    I'm a bit sceptical. The Ukraine has played the "Russians poised to invade" card every month for quite a while now, and because they DID invade previously it looks credible and of course they're nervous, but I don't see that Putin gets much out of it except a rebellious population. My guess is he'll trade a pullback for Germany opening the controversial gas pipeline.
    I think that’s Panglossian, Nick.
    It fails to acknowledge Putin’s ideological drive to retake what he sees as lost territory.
    It ain’t just Ukraine who is assessing this likely risk.
    According to people who actual knew Putin, he is a Greater Russian Nationalist. Its is an article of that faith, that any territory that Russia has ever held must be part of Russia again, going all the way back to the Tsars.
    Surely he wouldn't invade Poland and Finland?
    Not until after occupying the Baltic States, incorporating Belorussia, and completing the conquest of Ukraine. After completing those, then, sure, why wouldn't he?
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,048
    darkage said:

    darkage said:

    I have come around to the view that nationalism in inevitable; a state of affairs rooted deep in human nature. This insight came to me from living in other European countries; whilst they were outwardly progressive and enthusiastic about the European union, I eventually came to the view that they would never move beyond being a nation state. The only country that ever genuinely moved beyond nationalism for a brief period was the UK, it became aware of its mistake by 2016.

    Read the Orwell link I posted below.

    Nationalism is simply the familial/tribal loyalty moved to a larger arena.

    Her history, it has moved up to counties (Wessex was a country once). Then national units. Then supra-national units.

    Euro-nationalism is simply another example of this type of belief structure.
    I will do. But its just a conclusion that I came to myself. I used to be an internationalist but found that to be irreconcilable with my experience of people.

    Euro nationalism may just turn out to be the most disastrous idea of the last hundred years.
    There's nothing wrong with Euronationalism per se. My opinion is that it is trying to do the work of 300 years in 30 which is a problem.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,644
    Could have been worse... could have been made of knapped flint.
  • moonshinemoonshine Posts: 5,737

    ydoethur said:

    Nigelb said:

    darkage said:

    EU and NATO states swing behind US belief that Russia is preparing to invade Ukraine after unprecedented level of intelligence-sharing, as allies back Biden’s demand for tough deterrence package ahead of Putin call https://ft.com/content/b287f2e3-3b8b-4095-b704-c255a943c84c @FinancialTimes

    https://twitter.com/HenryJFoy/status/1467592759632543744?s=20

    Realistically NATO boots on the ground is the only thing that will really stop the Russians.
    I've said before that dealing with Russia is a case of containment. You just have to draw the line somewhere and hold it; and from that point it starts to become possible to deal with the Russian regime rather than from the current position of dithering, grandiose rhetoric, huffing and puffing, various sanctions - basically cowardice.

    The Russians will keep testing and I suspect that there will never be a 'boots on the ground' response because it won't be politically possible. So they will probably eventually sweep up a large part of Eastern Europe unopposed; it will not be an invasion, but compliant regimes. And all this could happen very quickly.

    I'm a bit sceptical. The Ukraine has played the "Russians poised to invade" card every month for quite a while now, and because they DID invade previously it looks credible and of course they're nervous, but I don't see that Putin gets much out of it except a rebellious population. My guess is he'll trade a pullback for Germany opening the controversial gas pipeline.
    I think that’s Panglossian, Nick.
    It fails to acknowledge Putin’s ideological drive to retake what he sees as lost territory.
    It ain’t just Ukraine who is assessing this likely risk.
    According to people who actual knew Putin, he is a Greater Russian Nationalist. Its is an article of that faith, that any territory that Russia has ever held must be part of Russia again, going all the way back to the Tsars.
    Surely he wouldn't invade Poland and Finland?
    Only because he *can't*

    He's not mad or stupid like... the Austrian street artist.

    Invading either would kick off the alliance systems* against him.

    As he sees it, Ukraine was abandoned outside the defences of Europe when Europe and the US didn't follow through on the promises made when the Ukrainians gave up nuclear weapons.

    Another bite out of Ukraine would be extremely popular in ultra-nationalist circles in Russia.

    *NATO, EU etc etc.
    You also have to see someone like Putin’s actions through the prism of what he fears might happen to him if he lost the confidence of the elites and hence his job. Clue: it might not involve a nice long retirement in a luxury dacha and the international speaking circuit. Which means you think that you have to be the strongest, loudest chest beating ape in the jungle to stay alive.

    Honestly at this point Xi is probably of a similar mindset given the domestic enemies he’s created. Not an ideal situation for the rest of us.
  • Could have been worse... could have been made of knapped flint.
    Have you seen @Leon's prices? Eye-watering.
  • FairlieredFairliered Posts: 4,922
    politicians who exploit nationalism? Who Wrap them themselves in flags? Wear nationalist glasses?
    Sounds like the Tory party to me.
  • CatManCatMan Posts: 3,056
    Well I got my Moderna booster today (after having two Astras). No reaction so far. I didn't with the original shots either. Does that mean anything, or is it just luck?
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,644

    Could have been worse... could have been made of knapped flint.
    Have you seen @Leon's prices? Eye-watering.
    Er, no. I am not really in the market for any of his output.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 70,933

    Could have been worse... could have been made of knapped flint.
    Have you seen @Leon's prices? Eye-watering.
    So are his butt plugs, apparently….
  • jonny83jonny83 Posts: 1,270
    Andy_JS said:

    BigRich said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "Latest data, looking good
    Dr. John Campbell"

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Paq17X6ucQ

    "rapid herd immunity at minimal cost in morbidity and mortality...."

    Fingers crossed.....
    Just watched the video, it does look like good news, very transmissible, but very milled symptoms.

    Clearly too soon to say for defiant, but the but the early indication are pointing that way.
    I hope so. Does anyone think Dr Campbell is being too optimistic?
    Well he's not a virologist as far as I am aware or even a Dr in the medical sense (correct me if I am wrong on that).

    I think it's too early to say especially as serous illness and deaths take some days to reach with Covid.

    South Africa has a young population (a bloody huge factor when it comes to Covid illness severity and death). Might not see the same result in other countries with older populations and colder climates.
  • politicians who exploit nationalism? Who Wrap them themselves in flags? Wear nationalist glasses?
    Sounds like the Tory party to me.

    Well now...




  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 12,493
    edited December 2021

    ydoethur said:

    Nigelb said:

    darkage said:

    EU and NATO states swing behind US belief that Russia is preparing to invade Ukraine after unprecedented level of intelligence-sharing, as allies back Biden’s demand for tough deterrence package ahead of Putin call https://ft.com/content/b287f2e3-3b8b-4095-b704-c255a943c84c @FinancialTimes

    https://twitter.com/HenryJFoy/status/1467592759632543744?s=20

    Realistically NATO boots on the ground is the only thing that will really stop the Russians.
    I've said before that dealing with Russia is a case of containment. You just have to draw the line somewhere and hold it; and from that point it starts to become possible to deal with the Russian regime rather than from the current position of dithering, grandiose rhetoric, huffing and puffing, various sanctions - basically cowardice.

    The Russians will keep testing and I suspect that there will never be a 'boots on the ground' response because it won't be politically possible. So they will probably eventually sweep up a large part of Eastern Europe unopposed; it will not be an invasion, but compliant regimes. And all this could happen very quickly.

    I'm a bit sceptical. The Ukraine has played the "Russians poised to invade" card every month for quite a while now, and because they DID invade previously it looks credible and of course they're nervous, but I don't see that Putin gets much out of it except a rebellious population. My guess is he'll trade a pullback for Germany opening the controversial gas pipeline.
    I think that’s Panglossian, Nick.
    It fails to acknowledge Putin’s ideological drive to retake what he sees as lost territory.
    It ain’t just Ukraine who is assessing this likely risk.
    According to people who actual knew Putin, he is a Greater Russian Nationalist. Its is an article of that faith, that any territory that Russia has ever held must be part of Russia again, going all the way back to the Tsars.
    Surely he wouldn't invade Poland and Finland?
    Only because he *can't*

    He's not mad or stupid like... the Austrian street artist.

    Invading either would kick off the alliance systems* against him.

    As he sees it, Ukraine was abandoned outside the defences of Europe when Europe and the US didn't follow through on the promises made when the Ukrainians gave up nuclear weapons.

    Another bite out of Ukraine would be extremely popular in ultra-nationalist circles in Russia.

    *NATO, EU etc etc.
    Finland is such an interesting case. No-one has laid a finger on NATO territory since foundation. Finland isn't in it. The EU as a defence force is laughable. The fact that the EU was founded on both pan national ideals and at the same time indifferent about NATO membership may well prove its single biggest weakness. It seems blissfully unaware there are three sides in any regional conflict: Yours, the Others and the Neutrals. In any conflict involving NATO the EU will have countries on two of those three sides. You could not make it up.

    if Russia did attack Finland? Not a clue. Nor has anyone else. But if I were a Finn I would notice that Ukraine has been promised everything except actual armed help.

  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 70,933
    CatMan said:

    Well I got my Moderna booster today (after having two Astras). No reaction so far. I didn't with the original shots either. Does that mean anything, or is it just luck?

    No, and yes.
  • jonny83jonny83 Posts: 1,270

    Could have been worse... could have been made of knapped flint.
    Slipped and fell naked or did the ammunition somehow penetrate his clothing?
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,644
    jonny83 said:

    Could have been worse... could have been made of knapped flint.
    Slipped and fell naked or did the ammunition somehow penetrate his clothing?
    Seriously? I wasn't there.
  • FairlieredFairliered Posts: 4,922
    The ideal Broom Broom little boy willie waving result would be boring Hamilton and boring Verstappen wiping each other out seriously enough for Broom Broom to be banned forever, so that the world would be a less boring place. Until then, could Broom Broom fans take their boring posts elsewhere, please?
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,048
    algarkirk said:

    ydoethur said:

    Nigelb said:

    darkage said:

    EU and NATO states swing behind US belief that Russia is preparing to invade Ukraine after unprecedented level of intelligence-sharing, as allies back Biden’s demand for tough deterrence package ahead of Putin call https://ft.com/content/b287f2e3-3b8b-4095-b704-c255a943c84c @FinancialTimes

    https://twitter.com/HenryJFoy/status/1467592759632543744?s=20

    Realistically NATO boots on the ground is the only thing that will really stop the Russians.
    I've said before that dealing with Russia is a case of containment. You just have to draw the line somewhere and hold it; and from that point it starts to become possible to deal with the Russian regime rather than from the current position of dithering, grandiose rhetoric, huffing and puffing, various sanctions - basically cowardice.

    The Russians will keep testing and I suspect that there will never be a 'boots on the ground' response because it won't be politically possible. So they will probably eventually sweep up a large part of Eastern Europe unopposed; it will not be an invasion, but compliant regimes. And all this could happen very quickly.

    I'm a bit sceptical. The Ukraine has played the "Russians poised to invade" card every month for quite a while now, and because they DID invade previously it looks credible and of course they're nervous, but I don't see that Putin gets much out of it except a rebellious population. My guess is he'll trade a pullback for Germany opening the controversial gas pipeline.
    I think that’s Panglossian, Nick.
    It fails to acknowledge Putin’s ideological drive to retake what he sees as lost territory.
    It ain’t just Ukraine who is assessing this likely risk.
    According to people who actual knew Putin, he is a Greater Russian Nationalist. Its is an article of that faith, that any territory that Russia has ever held must be part of Russia again, going all the way back to the Tsars.
    Surely he wouldn't invade Poland and Finland?
    Only because he *can't*

    He's not mad or stupid like... the Austrian street artist.

    Invading either would kick off the alliance systems* against him.

    As he sees it, Ukraine was abandoned outside the defences of Europe when Europe and the US didn't follow through on the promises made when the Ukrainians gave up nuclear weapons.

    Another bite out of Ukraine would be extremely popular in ultra-nationalist circles in Russia.

    *NATO, EU etc etc.
    Finland is such an interesting case. No-one has laid a finger on NATO territory since foundation. Finland isn't in it. The EU as a defence force is laughable. The fact that the EU was founded on both pan national ideals and at the same time indifferent about NATO membership may well prove its single biggest weakness. It seems blissfully unaware there are three sides in any regional conflict: Yours, the Others and the Neutrals. In any conflict involving NATO the EU will have countries on two of those three sides. You could not make it up.

    if Russia did attack Finland? Not a clue. Nor has anyone else. But if I were a Finn I would notice that Ukraine has been promised everything except actual armed help.

    The EU is involved in the negative sense. In the case of Ukraine, Germany has been trying to hold Europe (and hence NATO) from providing any material help.

    If Poland was invaded, then they would flip, which would mean a united NATO, full on, against Russia.

    In the case of Finals, there are old, historical structures in place. The Americans, long ago in the Cold War, made it clear that Finland, if *attacked* would be defended.. and made part of the alliance system. So Russia was deterred by the threat of NATO appearing on the doorstep....
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 70,933

    The ideal Broom Broom little boy willie waving result would be boring Hamilton and boring Verstappen wiping each other out seriously enough for Broom Broom to be banned forever, so that the world would be a less boring place. Until then, could Broom Broom fans take their boring posts elsewhere, please?

    Boring post.
  • jonny83 said:

    Could have been worse... could have been made of knapped flint.
    Slipped and fell naked or did the ammunition somehow penetrate his clothing?
    Surely it is obvious. He bent over in the shower and some blighter took a pot shot at him. Could happen to anyone!
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,048

    politicians who exploit nationalism? Who Wrap them themselves in flags? Wear nationalist glasses?
    Sounds like the Tory party to me.

    Well now...




    As Orwell notes, a nationalist sees behaviour from his own side (or allied sides, or sides he/she imagines are allies) as quite separate from the behaviour of his opponents.


    Darling: So you see, Blackadder, Field Marshal Haig is most anxious to eliminate all these German spies.

    Melchett: Filthy Hun weasels fighting their dirty underhand war!

    Darling: And, fortunately, one of *our* spies–

    Melchett: Splendid fellows, brave heroes, risking life and limb for Blighty!
  • Fauci says early reports encouraging about omicron variant

    https://twitter.com/ZekeJMiller/status/1467610828555882506
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,922
    edited December 2021
    jonny83 said:

    Could have been worse... could have been made of knapped flint.
    Slipped and fell naked or did the ammunition somehow penetrate his clothing?
    Well the bomb wouldn’t be much good if it couldn’t get through a few rags.
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830

    The ideal Broom Broom little boy willie waving result would be boring Hamilton and boring Verstappen wiping each other out seriously enough for Broom Broom to be banned forever, so that the world would be a less boring place. Until then, could Broom Broom fans take their boring posts elsewhere, please?

    Harsh.

    It is striking though that the end result is that our hero and anti hero go into the final round LEVEL ON POINTS, absolutely thrillingly and audience maximisingly. I mean, who here thinks TV wrestling is for real?
  • On-topic, I'd prefer a really big voodoo poll rather than a small poll that has been weighted to within an inch of its life.
  • IshmaelZ said:

    The ideal Broom Broom little boy willie waving result would be boring Hamilton and boring Verstappen wiping each other out seriously enough for Broom Broom to be banned forever, so that the world would be a less boring place. Until then, could Broom Broom fans take their boring posts elsewhere, please?

    Harsh.

    It is striking though that the end result is that our hero and anti hero go into the final round LEVEL ON POINTS, absolutely thrillingly and audience maximisingly. I mean, who here thinks TV wrestling is for real?
    Who is suggesting it isn't?
    OUTSIDE, NOW!!!
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,644

    jonny83 said:

    Could have been worse... could have been made of knapped flint.
    Slipped and fell naked or did the ammunition somehow penetrate his clothing?
    Surely it is obvious. He bent over in the shower and some blighter took a pot shot at him. Could happen to anyone!
    Now that is definitely a boring post.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,644
    edited December 2021
    RobD said:

    jonny83 said:

    Could have been worse... could have been made of knapped flint.
    Slipped and fell naked or did the ammunition somehow penetrate his clothing?
    Well the bomb wouldn’t be much good if it couldn’t get through a few rags.
    Bomb squad were called. I wonder if they had to do one of those controlled explosions to make the device, er... safe?
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,048
    RobD said:

    jonny83 said:

    Could have been worse... could have been made of knapped flint.
    Slipped and fell naked or did the ammunition somehow penetrate his clothing?
    Well the bomb wouldn’t be much good if it couldn’t get through a few rags.
    From the description it was a 6lbr, solid shot (no explosive filler)....
  • RobD said:

    jonny83 said:

    Could have been worse... could have been made of knapped flint.
    Slipped and fell naked or did the ammunition somehow penetrate his clothing?
    Well the bomb wouldn’t be much good if it couldn’t get through a few rags.
    Bomb squad were called. I wonder if they had to do one of those controlled explosions to make the device, er... safe?
    Danger UXBottom
  • FairlieredFairliered Posts: 4,922

    ydoethur said:

    Nigelb said:

    darkage said:

    EU and NATO states swing behind US belief that Russia is preparing to invade Ukraine after unprecedented level of intelligence-sharing, as allies back Biden’s demand for tough deterrence package ahead of Putin call https://ft.com/content/b287f2e3-3b8b-4095-b704-c255a943c84c @FinancialTimes

    https://twitter.com/HenryJFoy/status/1467592759632543744?s=20

    Realistically NATO boots on the ground is the only thing that will really stop the Russians.
    I've said before that dealing with Russia is a case of containment. You just have to draw the line somewhere and hold it; and from that point it starts to become possible to deal with the Russian regime rather than from the current position of dithering, grandiose rhetoric, huffing and puffing, various sanctions - basically cowardice.

    The Russians will keep testing and I suspect that there will never be a 'boots on the ground' response because it won't be politically possible. So they will probably eventually sweep up a large part of Eastern Europe unopposed; it will not be an invasion, but compliant regimes. And all this could happen very quickly.

    I'm a bit sceptical. The Ukraine has played the "Russians poised to invade" card every month for quite a while now, and because they DID invade previously it looks credible and of course they're nervous, but I don't see that Putin gets much out of it except a rebellious population. My guess is he'll trade a pullback for Germany opening the controversial gas pipeline.
    I think that’s Panglossian, Nick.
    It fails to acknowledge Putin’s ideological drive to retake what he sees as lost territory.
    It ain’t just Ukraine who is assessing this likely risk.
    According to people who actual knew Putin, he is a Greater Russian Nationalist. Its is an article of that faith, that any territory that Russia has ever held must be part of Russia again, going all the way back to the Tsars.
    Surely he wouldn't invade Poland and Finland?
    Not until after occupying the Baltic States, incorporating Belorussia, and completing the conquest of Ukraine. After completing those, then, sure, why wouldn't he?
    I wonder whether Western strategists are wondering how they can get Putin to turn his ire on Xi without threatening the West.
  • On-topic, I'd prefer a really big voodoo poll rather than a small poll that has been weighted to within an inch of its life.

    That's fine, but you'd be wrong.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,922

    ydoethur said:

    Nigelb said:

    darkage said:

    EU and NATO states swing behind US belief that Russia is preparing to invade Ukraine after unprecedented level of intelligence-sharing, as allies back Biden’s demand for tough deterrence package ahead of Putin call https://ft.com/content/b287f2e3-3b8b-4095-b704-c255a943c84c @FinancialTimes

    https://twitter.com/HenryJFoy/status/1467592759632543744?s=20

    Realistically NATO boots on the ground is the only thing that will really stop the Russians.
    I've said before that dealing with Russia is a case of containment. You just have to draw the line somewhere and hold it; and from that point it starts to become possible to deal with the Russian regime rather than from the current position of dithering, grandiose rhetoric, huffing and puffing, various sanctions - basically cowardice.

    The Russians will keep testing and I suspect that there will never be a 'boots on the ground' response because it won't be politically possible. So they will probably eventually sweep up a large part of Eastern Europe unopposed; it will not be an invasion, but compliant regimes. And all this could happen very quickly.

    I'm a bit sceptical. The Ukraine has played the "Russians poised to invade" card every month for quite a while now, and because they DID invade previously it looks credible and of course they're nervous, but I don't see that Putin gets much out of it except a rebellious population. My guess is he'll trade a pullback for Germany opening the controversial gas pipeline.
    I think that’s Panglossian, Nick.
    It fails to acknowledge Putin’s ideological drive to retake what he sees as lost territory.
    It ain’t just Ukraine who is assessing this likely risk.
    According to people who actual knew Putin, he is a Greater Russian Nationalist. Its is an article of that faith, that any territory that Russia has ever held must be part of Russia again, going all the way back to the Tsars.
    Surely he wouldn't invade Poland and Finland?
    Not until after occupying the Baltic States, incorporating Belorussia, and completing the conquest of Ukraine. After completing those, then, sure, why wouldn't he?
    I wonder whether Western strategists are wondering how they can get Putin to turn his ire on Xi without threatening the West.
    I doubt it. He seems more interested in reclaiming lost land, and there ain’t much of that in the far east.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,490
    jonny83 said:

    Andy_JS said:

    BigRich said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "Latest data, looking good
    Dr. John Campbell"

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Paq17X6ucQ

    "rapid herd immunity at minimal cost in morbidity and mortality...."

    Fingers crossed.....
    Just watched the video, it does look like good news, very transmissible, but very milled symptoms.

    Clearly too soon to say for defiant, but the but the early indication are pointing that way.
    I hope so. Does anyone think Dr Campbell is being too optimistic?
    Well he's not a virologist as far as I am aware or even a Dr in the medical sense (correct me if I am wrong on that).

    I think it's too early to say especially as serous illness and deaths take some days to reach with Covid.

    South Africa has a young population (a bloody huge factor when it comes to Covid illness severity and death). Might not see the same result in other countries with older populations and colder climates.
    You must have to know a fair bit about medicine to get a doctorate in nursing.
  • RobD said:

    ydoethur said:

    Nigelb said:

    darkage said:

    EU and NATO states swing behind US belief that Russia is preparing to invade Ukraine after unprecedented level of intelligence-sharing, as allies back Biden’s demand for tough deterrence package ahead of Putin call https://ft.com/content/b287f2e3-3b8b-4095-b704-c255a943c84c @FinancialTimes

    https://twitter.com/HenryJFoy/status/1467592759632543744?s=20

    Realistically NATO boots on the ground is the only thing that will really stop the Russians.
    I've said before that dealing with Russia is a case of containment. You just have to draw the line somewhere and hold it; and from that point it starts to become possible to deal with the Russian regime rather than from the current position of dithering, grandiose rhetoric, huffing and puffing, various sanctions - basically cowardice.

    The Russians will keep testing and I suspect that there will never be a 'boots on the ground' response because it won't be politically possible. So they will probably eventually sweep up a large part of Eastern Europe unopposed; it will not be an invasion, but compliant regimes. And all this could happen very quickly.

    I'm a bit sceptical. The Ukraine has played the "Russians poised to invade" card every month for quite a while now, and because they DID invade previously it looks credible and of course they're nervous, but I don't see that Putin gets much out of it except a rebellious population. My guess is he'll trade a pullback for Germany opening the controversial gas pipeline.
    I think that’s Panglossian, Nick.
    It fails to acknowledge Putin’s ideological drive to retake what he sees as lost territory.
    It ain’t just Ukraine who is assessing this likely risk.
    According to people who actual knew Putin, he is a Greater Russian Nationalist. Its is an article of that faith, that any territory that Russia has ever held must be part of Russia again, going all the way back to the Tsars.
    Surely he wouldn't invade Poland and Finland?
    Not until after occupying the Baltic States, incorporating Belorussia, and completing the conquest of Ukraine. After completing those, then, sure, why wouldn't he?
    I wonder whether Western strategists are wondering how they can get Putin to turn his ire on Xi without threatening the West.
    I doubt it. He seems more interested in reclaiming lost land, and there ain’t much of that in the far east.
    Plus he's not stupid.

    The west offers some easy pickings. Xi does not.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 18,276

    On-topic, I'd prefer a really big voodoo poll rather than a small poll that has been weighted to within an inch of its life.

    Weighting is bad, but voodoo polls are worse. If you were to have a perfectly random sample, then you wouldn't need any weighting, and increasing the sample size quickly has diminishing returns.
  • rural_voterrural_voter Posts: 2,038

    BigRich said:

    If Omicron really does spread like wildfire and it must have been around in largely unvaccinated South Africa for several weeks, wouldn't we be expecting an Italy style situation by now if if was really dangerous?

    Also appears to have a shorter incubation period. I think if it was as serious as Delta, we'd have known about it by now. So far, it's looking like it's highly transmissible, but much milder than other variants. We do, of course, need more data, but so far the signs seem quite encouraging to me.
    we defiantly still need more data, but I'm feeling more confidant in my cynical prediction that we will regret the travel ban from southern Africa, as we discover that omicron is less deadly but also gives a level of immunity to other variants!!!!

    A few weeks ago a prominent German decarded that 'by the end of the winter, everybody will have been vaccinated, recovered or dead!'

    I think that we can refine that now to 'Vaccinated, Omicroned, Recovered (from Delta) or Dead'

    Vaccinated may be better than Omicroned, but Omicroned is better that than the last too.

    The more people who get Omicron soon, the less will be left to get Delta, next week/month and therefor less overall death. OK not enough data to say this is definably correct, and I am more joking than anything else, but maybe we should be paying people with Omicron to come to the UK and socialize as much as possible?
    OK. Though if having had Delta doesn't protect you from Omicron then it quite possibly doesn't work the other way round either.

    Agree though that the travel ban will probably look like a mistake: pointless at best, given that Omicon has already established itself here. And really damaging to SA.
    Probably a 'scariant' to keep the narrative alive. From Dr. Chris Martenson's talk it seems to have followed a parallel path of evolution to Delta. Most viruses mutate to become more infectious and less deadly, so I'm sure we'd have heard from SAGE/NERVTAG by now if it was more deadly than Delta (IFR 0.1%).

    The BioNTech boss hasn't taken his own product yet
    https://www.bitchute.com/video/XXOaBwXSAbjK/

    He seems sensible to me. I assume he decided that personally the risk exceeded the benefit.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,569
    algarkirk said:

    ydoethur said:

    Nigelb said:

    darkage said:

    EU and NATO states swing behind US belief that Russia is preparing to invade Ukraine after unprecedented level of intelligence-sharing, as allies back Biden’s demand for tough deterrence package ahead of Putin call https://ft.com/content/b287f2e3-3b8b-4095-b704-c255a943c84c @FinancialTimes

    https://twitter.com/HenryJFoy/status/1467592759632543744?s=20

    Realistically NATO boots on the ground is the only thing that will really stop the Russians.
    I've said before that dealing with Russia is a case of containment. You just have to draw the line somewhere and hold it; and from that point it starts to become possible to deal with the Russian regime rather than from the current position of dithering, grandiose rhetoric, huffing and puffing, various sanctions - basically cowardice.

    The Russians will keep testing and I suspect that there will never be a 'boots on the ground' response because it won't be politically possible. So they will probably eventually sweep up a large part of Eastern Europe unopposed; it will not be an invasion, but compliant regimes. And all this could happen very quickly.

    I'm a bit sceptical. The Ukraine has played the "Russians poised to invade" card every month for quite a while now, and because they DID invade previously it looks credible and of course they're nervous, but I don't see that Putin gets much out of it except a rebellious population. My guess is he'll trade a pullback for Germany opening the controversial gas pipeline.
    I think that’s Panglossian, Nick.
    It fails to acknowledge Putin’s ideological drive to retake what he sees as lost territory.
    It ain’t just Ukraine who is assessing this likely risk.
    According to people who actual knew Putin, he is a Greater Russian Nationalist. Its is an article of that faith, that any territory that Russia has ever held must be part of Russia again, going all the way back to the Tsars.
    Surely he wouldn't invade Poland and Finland?
    Only because he *can't*

    He's not mad or stupid like... the Austrian street artist.

    Invading either would kick off the alliance systems* against him.

    As he sees it, Ukraine was abandoned outside the defences of Europe when Europe and the US didn't follow through on the promises made when the Ukrainians gave up nuclear weapons.

    Another bite out of Ukraine would be extremely popular in ultra-nationalist circles in Russia.

    *NATO, EU etc etc.
    Finland is such an interesting case. No-one has laid a finger on NATO territory since foundation. Finland isn't in it. The EU as a defence force is laughable. The fact that the EU was founded on both pan national ideals and at the same time indifferent about NATO membership may well prove its single biggest weakness. It seems blissfully unaware there are three sides in any regional conflict: Yours, the Others and the Neutrals. In any conflict involving NATO the EU will have countries on two of those three sides. You could not make it up.

    if Russia did attack Finland? Not a clue. Nor has anyone else. But if I were a Finn I would notice that Ukraine has been promised everything except actual armed help.

    Russians haven't done very well against Finland in the past.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,922
    Andy_JS said:

    jonny83 said:

    Andy_JS said:

    BigRich said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "Latest data, looking good
    Dr. John Campbell"

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Paq17X6ucQ

    "rapid herd immunity at minimal cost in morbidity and mortality...."

    Fingers crossed.....
    Just watched the video, it does look like good news, very transmissible, but very milled symptoms.

    Clearly too soon to say for defiant, but the but the early indication are pointing that way.
    I hope so. Does anyone think Dr Campbell is being too optimistic?
    Well he's not a virologist as far as I am aware or even a Dr in the medical sense (correct me if I am wrong on that).

    I think it's too early to say especially as serous illness and deaths take some days to reach with Covid.

    South Africa has a young population (a bloody huge factor when it comes to Covid illness severity and death). Might not see the same result in other countries with older populations and colder climates.
    You must have to know a fair bit about medicine to get a doctorate in nursing.
    Nursing is a very different area from studying how viruses function. A doctorate in nursing certainly doesn't make you an expert in virology or epidemiology.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 18,276

    RobD said:

    ydoethur said:

    Nigelb said:

    darkage said:

    EU and NATO states swing behind US belief that Russia is preparing to invade Ukraine after unprecedented level of intelligence-sharing, as allies back Biden’s demand for tough deterrence package ahead of Putin call https://ft.com/content/b287f2e3-3b8b-4095-b704-c255a943c84c @FinancialTimes

    https://twitter.com/HenryJFoy/status/1467592759632543744?s=20

    Realistically NATO boots on the ground is the only thing that will really stop the Russians.
    I've said before that dealing with Russia is a case of containment. You just have to draw the line somewhere and hold it; and from that point it starts to become possible to deal with the Russian regime rather than from the current position of dithering, grandiose rhetoric, huffing and puffing, various sanctions - basically cowardice.

    The Russians will keep testing and I suspect that there will never be a 'boots on the ground' response because it won't be politically possible. So they will probably eventually sweep up a large part of Eastern Europe unopposed; it will not be an invasion, but compliant regimes. And all this could happen very quickly.

    I'm a bit sceptical. The Ukraine has played the "Russians poised to invade" card every month for quite a while now, and because they DID invade previously it looks credible and of course they're nervous, but I don't see that Putin gets much out of it except a rebellious population. My guess is he'll trade a pullback for Germany opening the controversial gas pipeline.
    I think that’s Panglossian, Nick.
    It fails to acknowledge Putin’s ideological drive to retake what he sees as lost territory.
    It ain’t just Ukraine who is assessing this likely risk.
    According to people who actual knew Putin, he is a Greater Russian Nationalist. Its is an article of that faith, that any territory that Russia has ever held must be part of Russia again, going all the way back to the Tsars.
    Surely he wouldn't invade Poland and Finland?
    Not until after occupying the Baltic States, incorporating Belorussia, and completing the conquest of Ukraine. After completing those, then, sure, why wouldn't he?
    I wonder whether Western strategists are wondering how they can get Putin to turn his ire on Xi without threatening the West.
    I doubt it. He seems more interested in reclaiming lost land, and there ain’t much of that in the far east.
    Plus he's not stupid.

    The west offers some easy pickings. Xi does not.
    If China was split into dozens of nation states, as Europe is, then it would present some easier pickings. Possible to divide, and play one country against another.

    That said, I was interested to learn the other day that the population of NATO countries is over 900 million. We''re not as outnumbered by numberless Chinese hordes as you might think.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    Carnyx said:

    Just to hark the herald angels back a little to what we were discussing earlier re parties -

    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/picture/2021/dec/05/ben-jennings-on-boris-johnson-and-the-no-10-christmas-party-cartoon

    That's a brutal cartoon.
    Neither funny or true.

    But it is in the guardian…
  • BigRich said:

    If Omicron really does spread like wildfire and it must have been around in largely unvaccinated South Africa for several weeks, wouldn't we be expecting an Italy style situation by now if if was really dangerous?

    Also appears to have a shorter incubation period. I think if it was as serious as Delta, we'd have known about it by now. So far, it's looking like it's highly transmissible, but much milder than other variants. We do, of course, need more data, but so far the signs seem quite encouraging to me.
    we defiantly still need more data, but I'm feeling more confidant in my cynical prediction that we will regret the travel ban from southern Africa, as we discover that omicron is less deadly but also gives a level of immunity to other variants!!!!

    A few weeks ago a prominent German decarded that 'by the end of the winter, everybody will have been vaccinated, recovered or dead!'

    I think that we can refine that now to 'Vaccinated, Omicroned, Recovered (from Delta) or Dead'

    Vaccinated may be better than Omicroned, but Omicroned is better that than the last too.

    The more people who get Omicron soon, the less will be left to get Delta, next week/month and therefor less overall death. OK not enough data to say this is definably correct, and I am more joking than anything else, but maybe we should be paying people with Omicron to come to the UK and socialize as much as possible?
    OK. Though if having had Delta doesn't protect you from Omicron then it quite possibly doesn't work the other way round either.

    Agree though that the travel ban will probably look like a mistake: pointless at best, given that Omicon has already established itself here. And really damaging to SA.
    Probably a 'scariant' to keep the narrative alive. From Dr. Chris Martenson's talk it seems to have followed a parallel path of evolution to Delta. Most viruses mutate to become more infectious and less deadly, so I'm sure we'd have heard from SAGE/NERVTAG by now if it was more deadly than Delta (IFR 0.1%).

    The BioNTech boss hasn't taken his own product yet
    https://www.bitchute.com/video/XXOaBwXSAbjK/

    He seems sensible to me. I assume he decided that personally the risk exceeded the benefit.
    Why do you perpetuate the fake news.

    https://www.reuters.com/article/factcheck-pfizer-ceovaccine-idUSL1N2PD1UX
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,922

    BigRich said:

    If Omicron really does spread like wildfire and it must have been around in largely unvaccinated South Africa for several weeks, wouldn't we be expecting an Italy style situation by now if if was really dangerous?

    Also appears to have a shorter incubation period. I think if it was as serious as Delta, we'd have known about it by now. So far, it's looking like it's highly transmissible, but much milder than other variants. We do, of course, need more data, but so far the signs seem quite encouraging to me.
    we defiantly still need more data, but I'm feeling more confidant in my cynical prediction that we will regret the travel ban from southern Africa, as we discover that omicron is less deadly but also gives a level of immunity to other variants!!!!

    A few weeks ago a prominent German decarded that 'by the end of the winter, everybody will have been vaccinated, recovered or dead!'

    I think that we can refine that now to 'Vaccinated, Omicroned, Recovered (from Delta) or Dead'

    Vaccinated may be better than Omicroned, but Omicroned is better that than the last too.

    The more people who get Omicron soon, the less will be left to get Delta, next week/month and therefor less overall death. OK not enough data to say this is definably correct, and I am more joking than anything else, but maybe we should be paying people with Omicron to come to the UK and socialize as much as possible?
    OK. Though if having had Delta doesn't protect you from Omicron then it quite possibly doesn't work the other way round either.

    Agree though that the travel ban will probably look like a mistake: pointless at best, given that Omicon has already established itself here. And really damaging to SA.
    Probably a 'scariant' to keep the narrative alive. From Dr. Chris Martenson's talk it seems to have followed a parallel path of evolution to Delta. Most viruses mutate to become more infectious and less deadly, so I'm sure we'd have heard from SAGE/NERVTAG by now if it was more deadly than Delta (IFR 0.1%).

    The BioNTech boss hasn't taken his own product yet
    https://www.bitchute.com/video/XXOaBwXSAbjK/

    He seems sensible to me. I assume he decided that personally the risk exceeded the benefit.
    Because he wasn't eligible at the time. Or is this some anti-vax conspiracy theory?
  • NEW THREAD

  • rpjsrpjs Posts: 3,787

    ydoethur said:

    Nigelb said:

    darkage said:

    EU and NATO states swing behind US belief that Russia is preparing to invade Ukraine after unprecedented level of intelligence-sharing, as allies back Biden’s demand for tough deterrence package ahead of Putin call https://ft.com/content/b287f2e3-3b8b-4095-b704-c255a943c84c @FinancialTimes

    https://twitter.com/HenryJFoy/status/1467592759632543744?s=20

    Realistically NATO boots on the ground is the only thing that will really stop the Russians.
    I've said before that dealing with Russia is a case of containment. You just have to draw the line somewhere and hold it; and from that point it starts to become possible to deal with the Russian regime rather than from the current position of dithering, grandiose rhetoric, huffing and puffing, various sanctions - basically cowardice.

    The Russians will keep testing and I suspect that there will never be a 'boots on the ground' response because it won't be politically possible. So they will probably eventually sweep up a large part of Eastern Europe unopposed; it will not be an invasion, but compliant regimes. And all this could happen very quickly.

    I'm a bit sceptical. The Ukraine has played the "Russians poised to invade" card every month for quite a while now, and because they DID invade previously it looks credible and of course they're nervous, but I don't see that Putin gets much out of it except a rebellious population. My guess is he'll trade a pullback for Germany opening the controversial gas pipeline.
    I think that’s Panglossian, Nick.
    It fails to acknowledge Putin’s ideological drive to retake what he sees as lost territory.
    It ain’t just Ukraine who is assessing this likely risk.
    According to people who actual knew Putin, he is a Greater Russian Nationalist. Its is an article of that faith, that any territory that Russia has ever held must be part of Russia again, going all the way back to the Tsars.
    Surely he wouldn't invade Poland and Finland?
    Not until after occupying the Baltic States, incorporating Belorussia, and completing the conquest of Ukraine. After completing those, then, sure, why wouldn't he?
    Yet Lukashenko has been begging to have Belarus reincorporated into Mother Russia since he assumed power. The closest Putin has given him is the mini-USSR “the Union State” which has been moribund pretty much since it was established.
  • Foxy said:

    algarkirk said:

    ydoethur said:

    Nigelb said:

    darkage said:

    EU and NATO states swing behind US belief that Russia is preparing to invade Ukraine after unprecedented level of intelligence-sharing, as allies back Biden’s demand for tough deterrence package ahead of Putin call https://ft.com/content/b287f2e3-3b8b-4095-b704-c255a943c84c @FinancialTimes

    https://twitter.com/HenryJFoy/status/1467592759632543744?s=20

    Realistically NATO boots on the ground is the only thing that will really stop the Russians.
    I've said before that dealing with Russia is a case of containment. You just have to draw the line somewhere and hold it; and from that point it starts to become possible to deal with the Russian regime rather than from the current position of dithering, grandiose rhetoric, huffing and puffing, various sanctions - basically cowardice.

    The Russians will keep testing and I suspect that there will never be a 'boots on the ground' response because it won't be politically possible. So they will probably eventually sweep up a large part of Eastern Europe unopposed; it will not be an invasion, but compliant regimes. And all this could happen very quickly.

    I'm a bit sceptical. The Ukraine has played the "Russians poised to invade" card every month for quite a while now, and because they DID invade previously it looks credible and of course they're nervous, but I don't see that Putin gets much out of it except a rebellious population. My guess is he'll trade a pullback for Germany opening the controversial gas pipeline.
    I think that’s Panglossian, Nick.
    It fails to acknowledge Putin’s ideological drive to retake what he sees as lost territory.
    It ain’t just Ukraine who is assessing this likely risk.
    According to people who actual knew Putin, he is a Greater Russian Nationalist. Its is an article of that faith, that any territory that Russia has ever held must be part of Russia again, going all the way back to the Tsars.
    Surely he wouldn't invade Poland and Finland?
    Only because he *can't*

    He's not mad or stupid like... the Austrian street artist.

    Invading either would kick off the alliance systems* against him.

    As he sees it, Ukraine was abandoned outside the defences of Europe when Europe and the US didn't follow through on the promises made when the Ukrainians gave up nuclear weapons.

    Another bite out of Ukraine would be extremely popular in ultra-nationalist circles in Russia.

    *NATO, EU etc etc.
    Finland is such an interesting case. No-one has laid a finger on NATO territory since foundation. Finland isn't in it. The EU as a defence force is laughable. The fact that the EU was founded on both pan national ideals and at the same time indifferent about NATO membership may well prove its single biggest weakness. It seems blissfully unaware there are three sides in any regional conflict: Yours, the Others and the Neutrals. In any conflict involving NATO the EU will have countries on two of those three sides. You could not make it up.

    if Russia did attack Finland? Not a clue. Nor has anyone else. But if I were a Finn I would notice that Ukraine has been promised everything except actual armed help.

    Russians haven't done very well against Finland in the past.
    Though I did read recently that the Winter War gave Stalin/the SU just enough of a wake up call to stop Barbarossa being the kicking in of the door that brought down the whole rotting edifice that Hitler expected it to be. Silver linings and all that.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    ydoethur said:

    Nigelb said:

    darkage said:

    EU and NATO states swing behind US belief that Russia is preparing to invade Ukraine after unprecedented level of intelligence-sharing, as allies back Biden’s demand for tough deterrence package ahead of Putin call https://ft.com/content/b287f2e3-3b8b-4095-b704-c255a943c84c @FinancialTimes

    https://twitter.com/HenryJFoy/status/1467592759632543744?s=20

    Realistically NATO boots on the ground is the only thing that will really stop the Russians.
    I've said before that dealing with Russia is a case of containment. You just have to draw the line somewhere and hold it; and from that point it starts to become possible to deal with the Russian regime rather than from the current position of dithering, grandiose rhetoric, huffing and puffing, various sanctions - basically cowardice.

    The Russians will keep testing and I suspect that there will never be a 'boots on the ground' response because it won't be politically possible. So they will probably eventually sweep up a large part of Eastern Europe unopposed; it will not be an invasion, but compliant regimes. And all this could happen very quickly.

    I'm a bit sceptical. The Ukraine has played the "Russians poised to invade" card every month for quite a while now, and because they DID invade previously it looks credible and of course they're nervous, but I don't see that Putin gets much out of it except a rebellious population. My guess is he'll trade a pullback for Germany opening the controversial gas pipeline.
    I think that’s Panglossian, Nick.
    It fails to acknowledge Putin’s ideological drive to retake what he sees as lost territory.
    It ain’t just Ukraine who is assessing this likely risk.
    According to people who actual knew Putin, he is a Greater Russian Nationalist. Its is an article of that faith, that any territory that Russia has ever held must be part of Russia again, going all the way back to the Tsars.
    Surely he wouldn't invade Poland and Finland?
    Only because he *can't*

    He's not mad or stupid like... the Austrian street artist.

    Invading either would kick off the alliance systems* against him.

    As he sees it, Ukraine was abandoned outside the defences of Europe when Europe and the US didn't follow through on the promises made when the Ukrainians gave up nuclear weapons.

    Another bite out of Ukraine would be extremely popular in ultra-nationalist circles in Russia.

    *NATO, EU etc etc.
    That’s because it is on the wrong side of the carpathians. It’s a strategic threat for Russia for a foreign power to hold Ukraine
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    jonny83 said:

    Could have been worse... could have been made of knapped flint.
    Slipped and fell naked or did the ammunition somehow penetrate his clothing?
    The list of other items in the article is startling. Live eels? An aubergine? Concrete mix?
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    On-topic, I'd prefer a really big voodoo poll rather than a small poll that has been weighted to within an inch of its life.

    You’d gallop to the wrong conclusion, leaving you Dewey-eyed if you bet on it

  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 22,005
    CatMan said:

    Well I got my Moderna booster today (after having two Astras). No reaction so far. I didn't with the original shots either. Does that mean anything, or is it just luck?

    You must be in the placebo cohort.
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