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Voodoo polling v proper polling (festive edition) – politicalbetting.com

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  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,321
    Sky cuts out as Verstappen tries to explain that crash.

    Sign they are supportive of him?
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,321

    Pulpstar said:

    Vteri Bottas what an embarrasment of a driver

    But he could yet drive into Verstappen next time, wipe him out - and end the season a hero.....
    No love lost between him and Hamilton recently. Not likely he will do that.
  • Feck...

    Dr Anna Albecka-Moreau MicrobeEarth globe europe-africaHoneybeeFlag of European Union
    @AnnaAlbecka I guess Omicron is not going anywhere with already >5% of sequences in Belgium and Netherlands #Omicron

    https://twitter.com/AnnaAlbecka/status/1467573788900564996
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,321
    Lots of booing of both Verstappen and Hamilton. I don't think either have exactly enhanced their reputations this season.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 70,933
    ydoethur said:

    Sky cuts out as Verstappen tries to explain that crash.

    Sign they are supportive of him?

    There are lies even they hesitate to broadcast ?
  • FlatlanderFlatlander Posts: 4,635
    edited December 2021

    Feck...

    Dr Anna Albecka-Moreau MicrobeEarth globe europe-africaHoneybeeFlag of European Union
    @AnnaAlbecka I guess Omicron is not going anywhere with already >5% of sequences in Belgium and Netherlands #Omicron

    https://twitter.com/AnnaAlbecka/status/1467573788900564996

    Are they sequencing randomly, or just PCR positives with S-gene deletions?

    Might be easier to skew their numbers given they aren't doing anywhere near as many as we are.
  • MoonRabbitMoonRabbit Posts: 13,446
    edited December 2021
    ydoethur said:

    Farooq said:

    DavidL said:

    Sandpit said:

    Another day, another example of David Cameron’s Twitter maxim.

    Why are political parties still not properly vetting their candidates’ social media histories, when they know that not-so-friendly opponents and newspapers definitely will be?

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10276171/Lib-Dem-candidate-apologises-appearing-liken-Channel-migrants-Jewish-prisoners.html

    Helen Morgan, Lib Dem candidate in North Shropshire with today’s Godwin award, for writing, in the context of her son reading a book about the Holocaust:

    “He commented that the Nazis were only able to do such terrible things because they didn’t think their victims were people. He’s 11. On Twitter this morning, there are people talking about cancelling their RNLI donations because they have picked up “illegals”. The language used every day in this country – by the Government, press and people with thousands of followers on social media – it’s nothing short of chilling.”

    Then she liked a post from someone who replied:

    ‘Having visited Auschwitz concentration camp in the recent past. It really brings home man’s inhumanity to man. Now on a daily basis the language and actions of the Conservative Party make me more and more concerned about the direction they are taking the UK and its people.’

    Her own post is totally on the money. The post she liked is perhaps a bit over the top. But I'm sure that plenty of people share the sentiment that the othering and scapegoating of refugees that's going on in this country right now is chilling, and, for anyone with a knowledge of European history, has some alarming historical resonances.
    The suggestion that the Tories are similar to the Nazis in outlook and policies is absurd and, frankly, as good an example of "othering" as you will find. The SNP do very similar things demonising something like 25% of Scots who vote Tory and who, as a result, are apparently not real Scots. It also encourages the arrogance and moral superiority complex that so many liberals, in the broadest sense, are prone to and is one of the reasons that they fail at the ballot box.

    There was a chap about 2000 years ago who had some interesting observations about motes and beams. She should reflect on it.
    Thank goodness Tories and Unionists never indulge in that kind of behaviour (I couldn’t find the photoshop of Sturgeon in an SS uniform so beloved by your fruitier fellow travellers, I suspect twitter may have banned it). Motes and beams indeed.

    https://twitter.com/professorfergus/status/1444259197168799746?s=21
    This one, TUD? https://3.bp.blogspot.com/-_LjFitWgTf4/Wt8-pz0fuWI/AAAAAAAAQAc/6_ClSDp8SuEHs-JBe560EHnlG9AzBF1NwCLcBGAs/s1600/.jpg
    That’s the one.
    Ironically what one might call the far right in Scotland tends to Unionism.
    That’s a very seriously point actually as to why the SNP are wrong. Like Hitler they love the politics of nationalism.
    SNP won’t last much longer. People of Scotland will tire of the Nationalism spectacles, gravitate to another approach and Scot nationalism will go back to be a fringe thing.
    I see you’re as insightful and original on this topic as on others.
    😕
    I’m genuine sorry if I touched a nerve on Scottish Separatism that matters to you. To be honest divvy I really would like to listen and learn here as I have never chatted with SNP before. can you answer a few straightforward questions about it?

    1. Last time ref said it wanted to keep both the £ and the Monarchy? Will that be exactly the same in the next ref?
    2. Really? Having both those things, is it proper independence from continued English and London influence? or a sort of half way house have your cake and eat it independence?
    3. Surely the only True definition of independence is own currency and negotiate trade deal with what’s left of UK and everywhere else? Like Ireland? Because the place to avoid is the basket case facade democracy, Zimbabwe ending up in, you can have a parliament but not own the land, the resources, the ability to tax the necessary amount of wealth?
    4. If Scotland has independence from England, does it have the economy and assets to maintain the current lifestyle, free higher education etc, enough wealth owned, invested and generated, to tax, to maintain standards of living it currently enjoys? What main industry will it have other than tourism?
    5. Basically boils down to simple question, are the English currently takers from Scotland, Scotland takers from England, or current balance about right and fair?
    6. If you want to keep the monarchy, then why not trust a Royal Commission how we can share these Isles, in a helping sharing UK commonwealth (which it should already have been the last few hundred years) where everyone’s regional and local identity feels in a happy place? But To create such a happy place cannot be achieved through ramping nationalism and localism, and holding separatist referendums, can it?
    On the whole currency thing, I think it's widely acknowledged that the proposal to keep the pound was disingenuously sold and very poor politics. The factual point about it being viable in the short term was true, but it was an impossible message to sell to the public. I think the reality was that as soon as independence happened, or possibly even as part of the negotiations, the Scottish government would have pivoted away from that and launched their own currency / gone straight to the Euro if the EU accession fast-track would have been on. As a long term proposal, using the pound wouldn't have worked and I think the people saw through that particular ruse.
    Keeping the monarchy is a different matter. I'm certain the Scottish government wouldn't have moved at all on changing that. I can foresee a future, post-independence campaign for it, but I don't know whether it would really get the traction, and nobody on the mild-republican side of Scottish politics would want to risk their own position fighting a losing battle.

    As for the comments comparing any mainstream UK party with the Nazis, you're clearly an idiot.
    Thank you for what was almost a measured response. 🙂

    Hitler was a Nazi - Not a nationalist? So I can’t make a comparison between SNP and all parties and all politicians who exploit nationalism? Who Wrap them themselves in flags? Wear nationalist glasses?

    If I can’t, I do apologise.

    No you can't and yes you should apologise. Equating all nationalist movements - or even most of them - with the Nazis is clearly both ignorant and stupid. Was Gandhi a Nazi? Were those fighting for independence for South Somalia or East Timor Nazis? Any of the countries who gained independence from European power post colonialism?

    You might as well equate vegetarians and animal lovers with Nazis as Hitler was both of those. And sadly some have even tried to do that though I would have hoped most posting on PB has a bit more intelligence than that.
    I appreciate Richards explanation to me has a lot of likes now. I do apologies to everyone I have clumsily insulted today. I obviously don’t understand this stuff at all well.

    Because I always believed when politicians reached for Nationalism it was not such a good thing. Like this Winston Churchill quote “Patriotism is when love of your own people comes first; nationalism, when hate for people other than your own comes first”.

    So being called Nationalist Party is confusing guide to their politics that is really just democratic and patriotic.

    If any silver lining at all I am listening and learning thank you all, so please keep pointing out my mistakes so I can get it right when Prime Minister. Thank you. 🙏🏻
    Wasn't that in the context of intriguing against Neville Chamberlain's attempt to rebrand the Conservative party as the National party?
    I don’t know 🤷‍♀️

    What he is saying seems very black and white, but I learned today Nationalism used in politics is rather more nuanced than I ever realised.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,321
    Nigelb said:

    ydoethur said:

    Sky cuts out as Verstappen tries to explain that crash.

    Sign they are supportive of him?

    There are lies even they hesitate to broadcast ?
    Well, we know that's not true. They actually broadcast Cummings' press conference.
  • Lockdown incoming, we have lost control of the virus yet again
  • FrankBoothFrankBooth Posts: 9,806
    Is anyone else starting to feel optimistic about omicron? Could this be the beginning of the end of the pandemic?
  • ydoethur said:

    Lots of booing of both Verstappen and Hamilton. I don't think either have exactly enhanced their reputations this season.

    Lewis was a bit rude about Saudi Arabia.
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/formula1/59511709
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,922

    Lockdown incoming, we have lost control of the virus yet again

    There is no control, it's endemic.
  • BTW there's an absolute humdinger of a Cyclefree piece coming up overnight.
  • Lockdown incoming, we have lost control of the virus yet again

    Well, that's some juxtaposition on PB. You post and then @FrankBooth says we are near the end.

  • Lockdown incoming, we have lost control of the virus yet again

    Donnez moi un break.
  • Feck...

    Dr Anna Albecka-Moreau MicrobeEarth globe europe-africaHoneybeeFlag of European Union
    @AnnaAlbecka I guess Omicron is not going anywhere with already >5% of sequences in Belgium and Netherlands #Omicron

    https://twitter.com/AnnaAlbecka/status/1467573788900564996

    Are they sequencing randomly, or just PCR positives with S-gene deletions?

    Might be easier to skew their numbers given they aren't doing anywhere near as many as we are.
    A v good question.
  • maaarshmaaarsh Posts: 3,587
    Verstappen brake check was as he was scared lewis would overtake after the DRS detect.

    The entire incident stemmed from his utterly brain-dead idea that he could fake give the place and take it straight back 200m later like he did a few laps later and got the inevitable (small) penalty.

    No way action will be taken as the FIA want the big final shoot out, but that was a disgraceful display from start to finish, worthy of a DSQ or major penalty.

  • Dr Anna Albecka-Moreau MicrobeEarth globe europe-africaHoneybeeFlag of European Union
    @AnnaAlbecka
    ·
    12m
    Don’t know about that. Could be a result of targeted sequencing I guess.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,922

    Lockdown incoming, we have lost control of the virus yet again

    Well, that's some juxtaposition on PB. You post and then @FrankBooth says we are near the end.

    As ever on PB, just append "I want" or "I would like" to each post.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,321

    ydoethur said:

    Farooq said:

    DavidL said:

    Sandpit said:

    Another day, another example of David Cameron’s Twitter maxim.

    Why are political parties still not properly vetting their candidates’ social media histories, when they know that not-so-friendly opponents and newspapers definitely will be?

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10276171/Lib-Dem-candidate-apologises-appearing-liken-Channel-migrants-Jewish-prisoners.html

    Helen Morgan, Lib Dem candidate in North Shropshire with today’s Godwin award, for writing, in the context of her son reading a book about the Holocaust:

    “He commented that the Nazis were only able to do such terrible things because they didn’t think their victims were people. He’s 11. On Twitter this morning, there are people talking about cancelling their RNLI donations because they have picked up “illegals”. The language used every day in this country – by the Government, press and people with thousands of followers on social media – it’s nothing short of chilling.”

    Then she liked a post from someone who replied:

    ‘Having visited Auschwitz concentration camp in the recent past. It really brings home man’s inhumanity to man. Now on a daily basis the language and actions of the Conservative Party make me more and more concerned about the direction they are taking the UK and its people.’

    Her own post is totally on the money. The post she liked is perhaps a bit over the top. But I'm sure that plenty of people share the sentiment that the othering and scapegoating of refugees that's going on in this country right now is chilling, and, for anyone with a knowledge of European history, has some alarming historical resonances.
    The suggestion that the Tories are similar to the Nazis in outlook and policies is absurd and, frankly, as good an example of "othering" as you will find. The SNP do very similar things demonising something like 25% of Scots who vote Tory and who, as a result, are apparently not real Scots. It also encourages the arrogance and moral superiority complex that so many liberals, in the broadest sense, are prone to and is one of the reasons that they fail at the ballot box.

    There was a chap about 2000 years ago who had some interesting observations about motes and beams. She should reflect on it.
    Thank goodness Tories and Unionists never indulge in that kind of behaviour (I couldn’t find the photoshop of Sturgeon in an SS uniform so beloved by your fruitier fellow travellers, I suspect twitter may have banned it). Motes and beams indeed.

    https://twitter.com/professorfergus/status/1444259197168799746?s=21
    This one, TUD? https://3.bp.blogspot.com/-_LjFitWgTf4/Wt8-pz0fuWI/AAAAAAAAQAc/6_ClSDp8SuEHs-JBe560EHnlG9AzBF1NwCLcBGAs/s1600/.jpg
    That’s the one.
    Ironically what one might call the far right in Scotland tends to Unionism.
    That’s a very seriously point actually as to why the SNP are wrong. Like Hitler they love the politics of nationalism.
    SNP won’t last much longer. People of Scotland will tire of the Nationalism spectacles, gravitate to another approach and Scot nationalism will go back to be a fringe thing.
    I see you’re as insightful and original on this topic as on others.
    😕
    I’m genuine sorry if I touched a nerve on Scottish Separatism that matters to you. To be honest divvy I really would like to listen and learn here as I have never chatted with SNP before. can you answer a few straightforward questions about it?

    1. Last time ref said it wanted to keep both the £ and the Monarchy? Will that be exactly the same in the next ref?
    2. Really? Having both those things, is it proper independence from continued English and London influence? or a sort of half way house have your cake and eat it independence?
    3. Surely the only True definition of independence is own currency and negotiate trade deal with what’s left of UK and everywhere else? Like Ireland? Because the place to avoid is the basket case facade democracy, Zimbabwe ending up in, you can have a parliament but not own the land, the resources, the ability to tax the necessary amount of wealth?
    4. If Scotland has independence from England, does it have the economy and assets to maintain the current lifestyle, free higher education etc, enough wealth owned, invested and generated, to tax, to maintain standards of living it currently enjoys? What main industry will it have other than tourism?
    5. Basically boils down to simple question, are the English currently takers from Scotland, Scotland takers from England, or current balance about right and fair?
    6. If you want to keep the monarchy, then why not trust a Royal Commission how we can share these Isles, in a helping sharing UK commonwealth (which it should already have been the last few hundred years) where everyone’s regional and local identity feels in a happy place? But To create such a happy place cannot be achieved through ramping nationalism and localism, and holding separatist referendums, can it?
    On the whole currency thing, I think it's widely acknowledged that the proposal to keep the pound was disingenuously sold and very poor politics. The factual point about it being viable in the short term was true, but it was an impossible message to sell to the public. I think the reality was that as soon as independence happened, or possibly even as part of the negotiations, the Scottish government would have pivoted away from that and launched their own currency / gone straight to the Euro if the EU accession fast-track would have been on. As a long term proposal, using the pound wouldn't have worked and I think the people saw through that particular ruse.
    Keeping the monarchy is a different matter. I'm certain the Scottish government wouldn't have moved at all on changing that. I can foresee a future, post-independence campaign for it, but I don't know whether it would really get the traction, and nobody on the mild-republican side of Scottish politics would want to risk their own position fighting a losing battle.

    As for the comments comparing any mainstream UK party with the Nazis, you're clearly an idiot.
    Thank you for what was almost a measured response. 🙂

    Hitler was a Nazi - Not a nationalist? So I can’t make a comparison between SNP and all parties and all politicians who exploit nationalism? Who Wrap them themselves in flags? Wear nationalist glasses?

    If I can’t, I do apologise.

    No you can't and yes you should apologise. Equating all nationalist movements - or even most of them - with the Nazis is clearly both ignorant and stupid. Was Gandhi a Nazi? Were those fighting for independence for South Somalia or East Timor Nazis? Any of the countries who gained independence from European power post colonialism?

    You might as well equate vegetarians and animal lovers with Nazis as Hitler was both of those. And sadly some have even tried to do that though I would have hoped most posting on PB has a bit more intelligence than that.
    I appreciate Richards explanation to me has a lot of likes now. I do apologies to everyone I have clumsily insulted today. I obviously don’t understand this stuff at all well.

    Because I always believed when politicians reached for Nationalism it was not such a good thing. Like this Winston Churchill quote “Patriotism is when love of your own people comes first; nationalism, when hate for people other than your own comes first”.

    So being called Nationalist Party is confusing guide to their politics that is really just democratic and patriotic.

    If any silver lining at all I am listening and learning thank you all, so please keep pointing out my mistakes so I can get it right when Prime Minister. Thank you. 🙏🏻
    Wasn't that in the context of intriguing against Neville Chamberlain's attempt to rebrand the Conservative party as the National party?
    I don’t know 🤷‍♀️

    What he is saying seems very black and white, but I learned today Nationalism used in politics is rather more nuanced than I ever realised.
    Neville Chamberlain led the National Government (and refused ever to be called 'Conservative' which he described as an 'odious name') and which included the National Liberals and the National Labour Party as well as non-party MPs elected to support the National government e.g. Sir John Anderson. He wanted to unite them all in one party under that name. Never quite happened although had he been able to lead them into an election in 1939 or 1940 it might have been.

    Churchill of course was not opposed to all nationalism. He was for example, quite happy with Mussolini's version or with the Showa version in Japan until they attacked the British Empire.

    That's why I was asking whether that was the context.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,569
    rcs1000 said:

    The John Campbell video is well worth watching. What's really key is that the numbers in hospital with Covid in Guateng is vastly inflated. Simply 76% of those counted in that number were in hospital for other things.

    Possibly. Or possibly it is ripping through the wards in hospital acquired infections, which could be a major problem...
  • Me casting an eye over the F1 watchers.




  • Pouria Hadjibagheri
    @Pouriaaa Replying to @thomasforth
    @bothness and @statsgeekclare
    Might surprise you to know that the dashboard was created because a handful of people gave up their daily life and worked 18-hour days to make it happen. No one asked us. We thought it was needed, so we created it. Then people started to take credit for it.


    Pouria Hadjibagheri @Pouriaaa Replying to @Pouriaaa

    @thomasforth and 2 others

    We used to scavenge data off DA Govt tweets & put them in the a consolidated format for the dashboard. The dashboard team made something from that which is unique in the world. We now process 800,000,000+ rows to publish 54+ million figures each and every day. That's what we did.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 70,933
    Horner auditioning to be a Tory spokesperson.
    “Great effort Max, I have no idea why he [Hamilton] went into the back of you."
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 81,813
    edited December 2021
    Foxy said:

    rcs1000 said:

    The John Campbell video is well worth watching. What's really key is that the numbers in hospital with Covid in Guateng is vastly inflated. Simply 76% of those counted in that number were in hospital for other things.

    Possibly. Or possibly it is ripping through the wards in hospital acquired infections, which could be a major problem...
    I am a bit careful with his videos these days, he definitely pushes certain pet "takes" e.g ivermectin. His initial take on Omicron is it looks less serious, which is a good thing and has been basing a lot of his vdeos off that...when it is still far from clear this is the case.

    He is less follow the science and more look for the science that reinforces certain beliefs.
  • ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    Lots of booing of both Verstappen and Hamilton. I don't think either have exactly enhanced their reputations this season.

    Lewis was a bit rude about Saudi Arabia.
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/formula1/59511709
    I am not Lewis Hamilton's greatest fan but it's not fair to say that was rude. It was merely truthful.

    In fact, compared to what could be said about Saudi it was positively diplomatic.
    Not diplomatic enough to get a Tory lordship tho'.
  • ydoethur said:

    BTW there's an absolute humdinger of a Cyclefree piece coming up overnight.

    What does it accuse Max Verstappen of?
    Being less truthful than Boris Johnson and Dom Cummings.
  • maaarshmaaarsh Posts: 3,587
    Max summonded to stewards. Zero chance they will take serious action, this is WWE on wheels and they have the final race they want.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,321

    ydoethur said:

    BTW there's an absolute humdinger of a Cyclefree piece coming up overnight.

    What does it accuse Max Verstappen of?
    Being less truthful than Boris Johnson and Dom Cummings.
    Well, that's not possible.

    Even Goebbels was slightly more honest than Dominic Cummings (although he was a far worse human being in other ways, a thief, a murderer, a mass murderer and a serial rapist).
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,755
    One thing for sure is that Verstappen is pushing Hamilton to limits even he has never reached before. His utter determination in the last few races has been incredible.
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,437
    DavidL said:

    One thing for sure is that Verstappen is pushing Hamilton to limits even he has never reached before. His utter determination in the last few races has been incredible.

    It’ll be for nothing when Max smashes into Lewis in turn 1 and wins the title
  • FlatlanderFlatlander Posts: 4,635


    Dr Anna Albecka-Moreau MicrobeEarth globe europe-africaHoneybeeFlag of European Union
    @AnnaAlbecka
    ·
    12m
    Don’t know about that. Could be a result of targeted sequencing I guess.

    Ah, right. Quite likely. Thanks.

    Although I suppose we are close to or over 1% already given the official reports.

    If it does get to 5% then it will probably go all the way to 100%.

    Lets hope it really is mild...
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,037
    Foxy said:

    rcs1000 said:

    The John Campbell video is well worth watching. What's really key is that the numbers in hospital with Covid in Guateng is vastly inflated. Simply 76% of those counted in that number were in hospital for other things.

    Possibly. Or possibly it is ripping through the wards in hospital acquired infections, which could be a major problem...
    Sorry, this was 'admitted to hospital with Covid'.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,321
    DavidL said:

    One thing for sure is that Verstappen is pushing Hamilton to limits even he has never reached before. His utter determination in the last few races has been incredible.

    Well, he caught up with him in that race, albeit not solely in the way he wanted to.
  • That was some stupid shit. The "brake test" was moronic but wasn't quite as black and white as suggested. Loved the Mercedes / Masi call where they protested about knowing nothing about it and Masi points out he told the guy personally.

    But - and its a big but. Don't start moving around when you're handing the place over. Verstappen is going to get his arse kicked. Can we also talk about the repeated "racecraft" incidents including both Hamilton and Arse on the go slow?

    Hamilton will win the title and deservedly so. But can we please avoid this shitbox race next year?

  • Dr Anna Albecka-Moreau MicrobeEarth globe europe-africaHoneybeeFlag of European Union
    @AnnaAlbecka
    ·
    12m
    Don’t know about that. Could be a result of targeted sequencing I guess.

    Ah, right. Quite likely. Thanks.

    Although I suppose we are close to or over 1% already given the official reports.

    If it does get to 5% then it will probably go all the way to 100%.

    Lets hope it really is mild...
    What's interesting and will be crucial imho, is that, as I understand things, Omi is fighting mainly beta in SA, whereas we are fighting delta.

  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 17,326

    Lockdown incoming, we have lost control of the virus yet again

    No we haven’t. We still don’t know how serious omicron will be. If most cases are mild, there will be no issue. We anxiously wait on hard data, and must make do with anecdotes in the interim. Some good news today from SA. All is not lost.
  • maaarshmaaarsh Posts: 3,587

    DavidL said:

    One thing for sure is that Verstappen is pushing Hamilton to limits even he has never reached before. His utter determination in the last few races has been incredible.

    It’ll be for nothing when Max smashes into Lewis in turn 1 and wins the title
    Best hope now is the utter shamelessness of Max's last month makes the FIA wise up and envoke the Jerez rule when that happens.
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 17,326


    Dr Anna Albecka-Moreau MicrobeEarth globe europe-africaHoneybeeFlag of European Union
    @AnnaAlbecka
    ·
    12m
    Don’t know about that. Could be a result of targeted sequencing I guess.

    Ah, right. Quite likely. Thanks.

    Although I suppose we are close to or over 1% already given the official reports.

    If it does get to 5% then it will probably go all the way to 100%.

    Lets hope it really is mild...
    What's interesting and will be crucial imho, is that, as I understand things, Omi is fighting mainly beta in SA, whereas we are fighting delta.

    That’s not correct. Their last wave was delta.
  • maaarshmaaarsh Posts: 3,587

    That was some stupid shit. The "brake test" was moronic but wasn't quite as black and white as suggested. Loved the Mercedes / Masi call where they protested about knowing nothing about it and Masi points out he told the guy personally.

    But - and its a big but. Don't start moving around when you're handing the place over. Verstappen is going to get his arse kicked. Can we also talk about the repeated "racecraft" incidents including both Hamilton and Arse on the go slow?

    Hamilton will win the title and deservedly so. But can we please avoid this shitbox race next year?

    Max slammed the brakes on as he wanted Lewis to overtake before DRS detection point so he could re-overtake 2 seconds later. It shows what a lunatic he is he thought that would be an outcome which wouldn't generate a penalty.
  • FrankBoothFrankBooth Posts: 9,806
    If Omicron really does spread like wildfire and it must have been around in largely unvaccinated South Africa for several weeks, wouldn't we be expecting an Italy style situation by now if if was really dangerous?
  • There are so many different factors with SA, younger population and many had covid before, but 20-30% are HIV+ and very low vaccinations rates.
  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 12,146
    edited December 2021

    Me casting an eye over the F1 watchers.



    Lovely to see them frothing at the mouth. They’ve still got a bit of spunk in em.
  • maaarshmaaarsh Posts: 3,587

    If Omicron really does spread like wildfire and it must have been around in largely unvaccinated South Africa for several weeks, wouldn't we be expecting an Italy style situation by now if if was really dangerous?

    Well, fingers crossed we have the magic situation that it's very transmissible, doesn't re-infect much and doesn't make people that ill - i.e. it's a perfect vaccine.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,321
    maaarsh said:

    That was some stupid shit. The "brake test" was moronic but wasn't quite as black and white as suggested. Loved the Mercedes / Masi call where they protested about knowing nothing about it and Masi points out he told the guy personally.

    But - and its a big but. Don't start moving around when you're handing the place over. Verstappen is going to get his arse kicked. Can we also talk about the repeated "racecraft" incidents including both Hamilton and Arse on the go slow?

    Hamilton will win the title and deservedly so. But can we please avoid this shitbox race next year?

    Max slammed the brakes on as he wanted Lewis to overtake before DRS detection point so he could re-overtake 2 seconds later. It shows what a lunatic he is he thought that would be an outcome which wouldn't generate a penalty.
    It hasn't yet. That wasn't what he got the penalty for.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,472
    maaarsh said:

    That was some stupid shit. The "brake test" was moronic but wasn't quite as black and white as suggested. Loved the Mercedes / Masi call where they protested about knowing nothing about it and Masi points out he told the guy personally.

    But - and its a big but. Don't start moving around when you're handing the place over. Verstappen is going to get his arse kicked. Can we also talk about the repeated "racecraft" incidents including both Hamilton and Arse on the go slow?

    Hamilton will win the title and deservedly so. But can we please avoid this shitbox race next year?

    Max slammed the brakes on as he wanted Lewis to overtake before DRS detection point so he could re-overtake 2 seconds later. It shows what a lunatic he is he thought that would be an outcome which wouldn't generate a penalty.
    It'll come down to the data. If he did brake in an unusual position, it'll be as clear as day - and quite hard to explain away / excuse.
  • maaarshmaaarsh Posts: 3,587

    maaarsh said:

    That was some stupid shit. The "brake test" was moronic but wasn't quite as black and white as suggested. Loved the Mercedes / Masi call where they protested about knowing nothing about it and Masi points out he told the guy personally.

    But - and its a big but. Don't start moving around when you're handing the place over. Verstappen is going to get his arse kicked. Can we also talk about the repeated "racecraft" incidents including both Hamilton and Arse on the go slow?

    Hamilton will win the title and deservedly so. But can we please avoid this shitbox race next year?

    Max slammed the brakes on as he wanted Lewis to overtake before DRS detection point so he could re-overtake 2 seconds later. It shows what a lunatic he is he thought that would be an outcome which wouldn't generate a penalty.
    It'll come down to the data. If he did brake in an unusual position, it'll be as clear as day - and quite hard to explain away / excuse.
    The data was clear in Brasil and no action was ever going to be taken. Zero chance of meaningful further action with them already level on points.
  • BigRichBigRich Posts: 3,492


    Pouria Hadjibagheri
    @Pouriaaa Replying to @thomasforth
    @bothness and @statsgeekclare
    Might surprise you to know that the dashboard was created because a handful of people gave up their daily life and worked 18-hour days to make it happen. No one asked us. We thought it was needed, so we created it. Then people started to take credit for it.


    Pouria Hadjibagheri @Pouriaaa Replying to @Pouriaaa

    @thomasforth and 2 others

    We used to scavenge data off DA Govt tweets & put them in the a consolidated format for the dashboard. The dashboard team made something from that which is unique in the world. We now process 800,000,000+ rows to publish 54+ million figures each and every day. That's what we did.

    Which dash board are they talking about? the Woldmeater one?
  • maaarshmaaarsh Posts: 3,587
    Davidson the only one on Sky with a brain who can work out why the incident happened. Di Resta as usual just busy bigging up Max.
  • F1 is boring, just cars whizzing around in a circle. Also causes pollution, because the vehicles aren't electric.

    So there!
  • CookieCookie Posts: 13,734
    For the second day in a row, a data oddity: most councils in Yorkshire (but not all) and some elsewhere (e.g. Allerdale) with very, very low figures for cases by date of test specifically for the day before yesterday. Odd.
    Also, cases data very much failing to spiral out of control - numbers looking much like they tend to about five days before the trend changes. Not saying it'll happen this time but it's often happened from patterns like this before.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,321

    F1 is boring, just cars whizzing around in a circle. Also causes pollution, because the vehicles aren't electric.

    So there!

    Electric vehicles cause plenty of pollution. Just not in the air immediately around them.

    They are a classic example of the deep ecology/shallow ecology dilemma.
  • ydoethur said:

    F1 is boring, just cars whizzing around in a circle. Also causes pollution, because the vehicles aren't electric.

    So there!

    Electric vehicles cause plenty of pollution. Just not in the air immediately around them.

    They are a classic example of the deep ecology/shallow ecology dilemma.
    And your response to the ennui of F1?
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,321

    ydoethur said:

    F1 is boring, just cars whizzing around in a circle. Also causes pollution, because the vehicles aren't electric.

    So there!

    Electric vehicles cause plenty of pollution. Just not in the air immediately around them.

    They are a classic example of the deep ecology/shallow ecology dilemma.
    And your response to the ennui of F1?
    Tell Bottas that Hamilton and Verstappen have both made rude remarks about his mum?
  • maaarshmaaarsh Posts: 3,587
    Cookie said:

    For the second day in a row, a data oddity: most councils in Yorkshire (but not all) and some elsewhere (e.g. Allerdale) with very, very low figures for cases by date of test specifically for the day before yesterday. Odd.
    Also, cases data very much failing to spiral out of control - numbers looking much like they tend to about five days before the trend changes. Not saying it'll happen this time but it's often happened from patterns like this before.

    http://sonorouschocolate.com/covid19/extdata/logcasesbyage.png

    Specimen date data suggests the mini wave post last weekends press conference has peaked - too early to say if it was real or a result of extra testing driven from the big increase in covid salience.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,048
    BigRich said:


    Pouria Hadjibagheri
    @Pouriaaa Replying to @thomasforth
    @bothness and @statsgeekclare
    Might surprise you to know that the dashboard was created because a handful of people gave up their daily life and worked 18-hour days to make it happen. No one asked us. We thought it was needed, so we created it. Then people started to take credit for it.


    Pouria Hadjibagheri @Pouriaaa Replying to @Pouriaaa

    @thomasforth and 2 others

    We used to scavenge data off DA Govt tweets & put them in the a consolidated format for the dashboard. The dashboard team made something from that which is unique in the world. We now process 800,000,000+ rows to publish 54+ million figures each and every day. That's what we did.

    Which dash board are they talking about? the Woldmeater one?
    https://coronavirus.data.gov.uk/

    and the open data api they make available

    https://coronavirus.data.gov.uk/details/developers-guide/main-api
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 70,933

    F1 is boring, just cars whizzing around in a circle. Also causes pollution, because the vehicles aren't electric.

    So there!

    It’s not as though they are on rails, Sunil.
  • Christian Horner should be stripped of British citizenship and charged with treason.
  • ydoethur said:

    F1 is boring, just cars whizzing around in a circle. Also causes pollution, because the vehicles aren't electric.

    So there!

    Electric vehicles cause plenty of pollution. Just not in the air immediately around them.

    They are a classic example of the deep ecology/shallow ecology dilemma.
    And your response to the ennui of F1?
    Ennui? Used to play for Arsenal, didn't he?
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,723

    F1 is boring, just cars whizzing around in a circle. Also causes pollution, because the vehicles aren't electric.

    So there!

    This would be so much better. Electric.

    https://www.wonderlandmodels.com/products/lgb-christmas-passenger-model-railway-set/?exchange_rate=1&gclid=EAIaIQobChMIvsaI-b_N9AIVRe7tCh2VCAcyEAQYASABEgIqmvD_BwE
  • .

    DavidL said:

    One thing for sure is that Verstappen is pushing Hamilton to limits even he has never reached before. His utter determination in the last few races has been incredible.

    It’ll be for nothing when Max smashes into Lewis in turn 1 and wins the title
    The Schumacher technique.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,321

    Christian Horner should be stripped of British citizenship and charged with treason.

    Bad idea. The Austrians and Dutch would offer him joint life citizenship and the Austrians would make him President.
  • Nigelb said:

    F1 is boring, just cars whizzing around in a circle. Also causes pollution, because the vehicles aren't electric.

    So there!

    It’s not as though they are on rails, Sunil.
    Just to be even-handed - steam engines also cause pollution!
  • Christian Horner should be stripped of British citizenship and charged with treason.

    I can reassure nervous PBers comparing your posts with MaxPB's polemic that I am not Christian Horner
  • F1 fans are irresponsible folk who don't care about the environment.

    :lol:
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,321

    Nigelb said:

    F1 is boring, just cars whizzing around in a circle. Also causes pollution, because the vehicles aren't electric.

    So there!

    It’s not as though they are on rails, Sunil.
    Just to be even-handed - steam engines also cause pollution!
    A bit of a coaled response.
  • ydoethur said:

    Christian Horner should be stripped of British citizenship and charged with treason.

    Bad idea. The Austrians and Dutch would offer him joint life citizenship and the Austrians would make him President.
    Fine.
  • F1 is boring, just cars whizzing around in a circle. Also causes pollution, because the vehicles aren't electric.

    So there!

    Not much whizzing around today.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,321
    Brecel clings on with his fingertips.
  • ThomasNasheThomasNashe Posts: 5,331

    If Omicron really does spread like wildfire and it must have been around in largely unvaccinated South Africa for several weeks, wouldn't we be expecting an Italy style situation by now if if was really dangerous?

    Also appears to have a shorter incubation period. I think if it was as serious as Delta, we'd have known about it by now. So far, it's looking like it's highly transmissible, but much milder than other variants. We do, of course, need more data, but so far the signs seem quite encouraging to me.
  • maaarshmaaarsh Posts: 3,587

    .

    DavidL said:

    One thing for sure is that Verstappen is pushing Hamilton to limits even he has never reached before. His utter determination in the last few races has been incredible.

    It’ll be for nothing when Max smashes into Lewis in turn 1 and wins the title
    The Schumacher technique.
    Max makes Schumacher look like a choir boy. Filthy driving standards.
  • maaarsh said:

    That was some stupid shit. The "brake test" was moronic but wasn't quite as black and white as suggested. Loved the Mercedes / Masi call where they protested about knowing nothing about it and Masi points out he told the guy personally.

    But - and its a big but. Don't start moving around when you're handing the place over. Verstappen is going to get his arse kicked. Can we also talk about the repeated "racecraft" incidents including both Hamilton and Arse on the go slow?

    Hamilton will win the title and deservedly so. But can we please avoid this shitbox race next year?

    Max slammed the brakes on as he wanted Lewis to overtake before DRS detection point so he could re-overtake 2 seconds later. It shows what a lunatic he is he thought that would be an outcome which wouldn't generate a penalty.
    What rule does that break? If it doesn't break any, that seems like clever tactics.

    Leaving the track and cutting the corner seemed a bigger issue to me.
  • maaarshmaaarsh Posts: 3,587
    edited December 2021

    maaarsh said:

    That was some stupid shit. The "brake test" was moronic but wasn't quite as black and white as suggested. Loved the Mercedes / Masi call where they protested about knowing nothing about it and Masi points out he told the guy personally.

    But - and its a big but. Don't start moving around when you're handing the place over. Verstappen is going to get his arse kicked. Can we also talk about the repeated "racecraft" incidents including both Hamilton and Arse on the go slow?

    Hamilton will win the title and deservedly so. But can we please avoid this shitbox race next year?

    Max slammed the brakes on as he wanted Lewis to overtake before DRS detection point so he could re-overtake 2 seconds later. It shows what a lunatic he is he thought that would be an outcome which wouldn't generate a penalty.
    What rule does that break? If it doesn't break any, that seems like clever tactics.

    Leaving the track and cutting the corner seemed a bigger issue to me.
    It doesn't break a rule - but it also doesn't give the place back - which is also not in the rules, so then stewards then take it in to their own hands and give a penalty to him as he didn't properly give the place back. So it's not clever, it just invites the stewards to act whilst noting you hold the rules they're enforcing in contempt.

    But agreed, it will ultimately be a smokescreen for the fact that twice once again Max got overtaken cleanly so decided to straight line across a corner and force Hamilton to yield or be crashed out. As long as that is allowed, no real racing is possible. It's the opposite of let them race.
  • MoonRabbitMoonRabbit Posts: 13,446
    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    Farooq said:

    DavidL said:

    Sandpit said:

    Another day, another example of David Cameron’s Twitter maxim.

    Why are political parties still not properly vetting their candidates’ social media histories, when they know that not-so-friendly opponents and newspapers definitely will be?

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10276171/Lib-Dem-candidate-apologises-appearing-liken-Channel-migrants-Jewish-prisoners.html

    Helen Morgan, Lib Dem candidate in North Shropshire with today’s Godwin award, for writing, in the context of her son reading a book about the Holocaust:

    “He commented that the Nazis were only able to do such terrible things because they didn’t think their victims were people. He’s 11. On Twitter this morning, there are people talking about cancelling their RNLI donations because they have picked up “illegals”. The language used every day in this country – by the Government, press and people with thousands of followers on social media – it’s nothing short of chilling.”

    Then she liked a post from someone who replied:

    ‘Having visited Auschwitz concentration camp in the recent past. It really brings home man’s inhumanity to man. Now on a daily basis the language and actions of the Conservative Party make me more and more concerned about the direction they are taking the UK and its people.’

    Her own post is totally on the money. The post she liked is perhaps a bit over the top. But I'm sure that plenty of people share the sentiment that the othering and scapegoating of refugees that's going on in this country right now is chilling, and, for anyone with a knowledge of European history, has some alarming historical resonances.
    The suggestion that the Tories are similar to the Nazis in outlook and policies is absurd and, frankly, as good an example of "othering" as you will find. The SNP do very similar things demonising something like 25% of Scots who vote Tory and who, as a result, are apparently not real Scots. It also encourages the arrogance and moral superiority complex that so many liberals, in the broadest sense, are prone to and is one of the reasons that they fail at the ballot box.

    There was a chap about 2000 years ago who had some interesting observations about motes and beams. She should reflect on it.
    Thank goodness Tories and Unionists never indulge in that kind of behaviour (I couldn’t find the photoshop of Sturgeon in an SS uniform so beloved by your fruitier fellow travellers, I suspect twitter may have banned it). Motes and beams indeed.

    https://twitter.com/professorfergus/status/1444259197168799746?s=21
    This one, TUD? https://3.bp.blogspot.com/-_LjFitWgTf4/Wt8-pz0fuWI/AAAAAAAAQAc/6_ClSDp8SuEHs-JBe560EHnlG9AzBF1NwCLcBGAs/s1600/.jpg
    That’s the one.
    Ironically what one might call the far right in Scotland tends to Unionism.
    That’s a very seriously point actually as to why the SNP are wrong. Like Hitler they love the politics of nationalism.
    SNP won’t last much longer. People of Scotland will tire of the Nationalism spectacles, gravitate to another approach and Scot nationalism will go back to be a fringe thing.
    I see you’re as insightful and original on this topic as on others.
    😕
    I’m genuine sorry if I touched a nerve on Scottish Separatism that matters to you. To be honest divvy I really would like to listen and learn here as I have never chatted with SNP before. can you answer a few straightforward questions about it?

    1. Last time ref said it wanted to keep both the £ and the Monarchy? Will that be exactly the same in the next ref?
    2. Really? Having both those things, is it proper independence from continued English and London influence? or a sort of half way house have your cake and eat it independence?
    3. Surely the only True definition of independence is own currency and negotiate trade deal with what’s left of UK and everywhere else? Like Ireland? Because the place to avoid is the basket case facade democracy, Zimbabwe ending up in, you can have a parliament but not own the land, the resources, the ability to tax the necessary amount of wealth?
    4. If Scotland has independence from England, does it have the economy and assets to maintain the current lifestyle, free higher education etc, enough wealth owned, invested and generated, to tax, to maintain standards of living it currently enjoys? What main industry will it have other than tourism?
    5. Basically boils down to simple question, are the English currently takers from Scotland, Scotland takers from England, or current balance about right and fair?
    6. If you want to keep the monarchy, then why not trust a Royal Commission how we can share these Isles, in a helping sharing UK commonwealth (which it should already have been the last few hundred years) where everyone’s regional and local identity feels in a happy place? But To create such a happy place cannot be achieved through ramping nationalism and localism, and holding separatist referendums, can it?
    On the whole currency thing, I think it's widely acknowledged that the proposal to keep the pound was disingenuously sold and very poor politics. The factual point about it being viable in the short term was true, but it was an impossible message to sell to the public. I think the reality was that as soon as independence happened, or possibly even as part of the negotiations, the Scottish government would have pivoted away from that and launched their own currency / gone straight to the Euro if the EU accession fast-track would have been on. As a long term proposal, using the pound wouldn't have worked and I think the people saw through that particular ruse.
    Keeping the monarchy is a different matter. I'm certain the Scottish government wouldn't have moved at all on changing that. I can foresee a future, post-independence campaign for it, but I don't know whether it would really get the traction, and nobody on the mild-republican side of Scottish politics would want to risk their own position fighting a losing battle.

    As for the comments comparing any mainstream UK party with the Nazis, you're clearly an idiot.
    Thank you for what was almost a measured response. 🙂

    Hitler was a Nazi - Not a nationalist? So I can’t make a comparison between SNP and all parties and all politicians who exploit nationalism? Who Wrap them themselves in flags? Wear nationalist glasses?

    If I can’t, I do apologise.

    No you can't and yes you should apologise. Equating all nationalist movements - or even most of them - with the Nazis is clearly both ignorant and stupid. Was Gandhi a Nazi? Were those fighting for independence for South Somalia or East Timor Nazis? Any of the countries who gained independence from European power post colonialism?

    You might as well equate vegetarians and animal lovers with Nazis as Hitler was both of those. And sadly some have even tried to do that though I would have hoped most posting on PB has a bit more intelligence than that.
    I appreciate Richards explanation to me has a lot of likes now. I do apologies to everyone I have clumsily insulted today. I obviously don’t understand this stuff at all well.

    Because I always believed when politicians reached for Nationalism it was not such a good thing. Like this Winston Churchill quote “Patriotism is when love of your own people comes first; nationalism, when hate for people other than your own comes first”.

    So being called Nationalist Party is confusing guide to their politics that is really just democratic and patriotic.

    If any silver lining at all I am listening and learning thank you all, so please keep pointing out my mistakes so I can get it right when Prime Minister. Thank you. 🙏🏻
    Wasn't that in the context of intriguing against Neville Chamberlain's attempt to rebrand the Conservative party as the National party?
    I don’t know 🤷‍♀️

    What he is saying seems very black and white, but I learned today Nationalism used in politics is rather more nuanced than I ever realised.
    Neville Chamberlain led the National Government (and refused ever to be called 'Conservative' which he described as an 'odious name') and which included the National Liberals and the National Labour Party as well as non-party MPs elected to support the National government e.g. Sir John Anderson. He wanted to unite them all in one party under that name. Never quite happened although had he been able to lead them into an election in 1939 or 1940 it might have been.

    Churchill of course was not opposed to all nationalism. He was for example, quite happy with Mussolini's version or with the Showa version in Japan until they attacked the British Empire.

    That's why I was asking whether that was the context.
    “ Churchill of course was not opposed to all nationalism. “

    So Churchill only opposed to some use of Nationalism? Can you say which are those, when it’s fair and good and not good? I still feel a disconnect between me and the whole of PB. I’ll have a go at answering my own question.

    When Gordon Brown wrapped himself in Union Jack at Party conference with British Jobs for British Workers, I still feel that was 100% wrong. Apart from the fact it stopped the weird milliband brother becoming Prime Minister. All because he hard questions to answer, but instead of asking him for those answers his conference lapped it up as he said it.

    I didn’t mean to imply Gordon Brown and Nicola sturgeons are Nazi as I never believed that and how you all painted me. But, and you have put doubts in my mind, and it may be idiot to still think like this, if politicians want supporters lapping it up and not scrutinising, I always felt they are using some techniques of Adolf Hitlers playbook without actually being full Nazi, if that makes sense. Avoiding scrutiny by placing a flag between him and the questions.

    I don’t think Nationalism is always used so fair and proper as you and certainly Richards post, and everyone else here believe. I may be on my own, but I still feel a gulf between us.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,321

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    Farooq said:

    DavidL said:

    Sandpit said:

    Another day, another example of David Cameron’s Twitter maxim.

    Why are political parties still not properly vetting their candidates’ social media histories, when they know that not-so-friendly opponents and newspapers definitely will be?

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10276171/Lib-Dem-candidate-apologises-appearing-liken-Channel-migrants-Jewish-prisoners.html

    Helen Morgan, Lib Dem candidate in North Shropshire with today’s Godwin award, for writing, in the context of her son reading a book about the Holocaust:

    “He commented that the Nazis were only able to do such terrible things because they didn’t think their victims were people. He’s 11. On Twitter this morning, there are people talking about cancelling their RNLI donations because they have picked up “illegals”. The language used every day in this country – by the Government, press and people with thousands of followers on social media – it’s nothing short of chilling.”

    Then she liked a post from someone who replied:

    ‘Having visited Auschwitz concentration camp in the recent past. It really brings home man’s inhumanity to man. Now on a daily basis the language and actions of the Conservative Party make me more and more concerned about the direction they are taking the UK and its people.’

    Her own post is totally on the money. The post she liked is perhaps a bit over the top. But I'm sure that plenty of people share the sentiment that the othering and scapegoating of refugees that's going on in this country right now is chilling, and, for anyone with a knowledge of European history, has some alarming historical resonances.
    The suggestion that the Tories are similar to the Nazis in outlook and policies is absurd and, frankly, as good an example of "othering" as you will find. The SNP do very similar things demonising something like 25% of Scots who vote Tory and who, as a result, are apparently not real Scots. It also encourages the arrogance and moral superiority complex that so many liberals, in the broadest sense, are prone to and is one of the reasons that they fail at the ballot box.

    There was a chap about 2000 years ago who had some interesting observations about motes and beams. She should reflect on it.
    Thank goodness Tories and Unionists never indulge in that kind of behaviour (I couldn’t find the photoshop of Sturgeon in an SS uniform so beloved by your fruitier fellow travellers, I suspect twitter may have banned it). Motes and beams indeed.

    https://twitter.com/professorfergus/status/1444259197168799746?s=21
    This one, TUD? https://3.bp.blogspot.com/-_LjFitWgTf4/Wt8-pz0fuWI/AAAAAAAAQAc/6_ClSDp8SuEHs-JBe560EHnlG9AzBF1NwCLcBGAs/s1600/.jpg
    That’s the one.
    Ironically what one might call the far right in Scotland tends to Unionism.
    That’s a very seriously point actually as to why the SNP are wrong. Like Hitler they love the politics of nationalism.
    SNP won’t last much longer. People of Scotland will tire of the Nationalism spectacles, gravitate to another approach and Scot nationalism will go back to be a fringe thing.
    I see you’re as insightful and original on this topic as on others.
    😕
    I’m genuine sorry if I touched a nerve on Scottish Separatism that matters to you. To be honest divvy I really would like to listen and learn here as I have never chatted with SNP before. can you answer a few straightforward questions about it?

    1. Last time ref said it wanted to keep both the £ and the Monarchy? Will that be exactly the same in the next ref?
    2. Really? Having both those things, is it proper independence from continued English and London influence? or a sort of half way house have your cake and eat it independence?
    3. Surely the only True definition of independence is own currency and negotiate trade deal with what’s left of UK and everywhere else? Like Ireland? Because the place to avoid is the basket case facade democracy, Zimbabwe ending up in, you can have a parliament but not own the land, the resources, the ability to tax the necessary amount of wealth?
    4. If Scotland has independence from England, does it have the economy and assets to maintain the current lifestyle, free higher education etc, enough wealth owned, invested and generated, to tax, to maintain standards of living it currently enjoys? What main industry will it have other than tourism?
    5. Basically boils down to simple question, are the English currently takers from Scotland, Scotland takers from England, or current balance about right and fair?
    6. If you want to keep the monarchy, then why not trust a Royal Commission how we can share these Isles, in a helping sharing UK commonwealth (which it should already have been the last few hundred years) where everyone’s regional and local identity feels in a happy place? But To create such a happy place cannot be achieved through ramping nationalism and localism, and holding separatist referendums, can it?
    On the whole currency thing, I think it's widely acknowledged that the proposal to keep the pound was disingenuously sold and very poor politics. The factual point about it being viable in the short term was true, but it was an impossible message to sell to the public. I think the reality was that as soon as independence happened, or possibly even as part of the negotiations, the Scottish government would have pivoted away from that and launched their own currency / gone straight to the Euro if the EU accession fast-track would have been on. As a long term proposal, using the pound wouldn't have worked and I think the people saw through that particular ruse.
    Keeping the monarchy is a different matter. I'm certain the Scottish government wouldn't have moved at all on changing that. I can foresee a future, post-independence campaign for it, but I don't know whether it would really get the traction, and nobody on the mild-republican side of Scottish politics would want to risk their own position fighting a losing battle.

    As for the comments comparing any mainstream UK party with the Nazis, you're clearly an idiot.
    Thank you for what was almost a measured response. 🙂

    Hitler was a Nazi - Not a nationalist? So I can’t make a comparison between SNP and all parties and all politicians who exploit nationalism? Who Wrap them themselves in flags? Wear nationalist glasses?

    If I can’t, I do apologise.

    No you can't and yes you should apologise. Equating all nationalist movements - or even most of them - with the Nazis is clearly both ignorant and stupid. Was Gandhi a Nazi? Were those fighting for independence for South Somalia or East Timor Nazis? Any of the countries who gained independence from European power post colonialism?

    You might as well equate vegetarians and animal lovers with Nazis as Hitler was both of those. And sadly some have even tried to do that though I would have hoped most posting on PB has a bit more intelligence than that.
    I appreciate Richards explanation to me has a lot of likes now. I do apologies to everyone I have clumsily insulted today. I obviously don’t understand this stuff at all well.

    Because I always believed when politicians reached for Nationalism it was not such a good thing. Like this Winston Churchill quote “Patriotism is when love of your own people comes first; nationalism, when hate for people other than your own comes first”.

    So being called Nationalist Party is confusing guide to their politics that is really just democratic and patriotic.

    If any silver lining at all I am listening and learning thank you all, so please keep pointing out my mistakes so I can get it right when Prime Minister. Thank you. 🙏🏻
    Wasn't that in the context of intriguing against Neville Chamberlain's attempt to rebrand the Conservative party as the National party?
    I don’t know 🤷‍♀️

    What he is saying seems very black and white, but I learned today Nationalism used in politics is rather more nuanced than I ever realised.
    Neville Chamberlain led the National Government (and refused ever to be called 'Conservative' which he described as an 'odious name') and which included the National Liberals and the National Labour Party as well as non-party MPs elected to support the National government e.g. Sir John Anderson. He wanted to unite them all in one party under that name. Never quite happened although had he been able to lead them into an election in 1939 or 1940 it might have been.

    Churchill of course was not opposed to all nationalism. He was for example, quite happy with Mussolini's version or with the Showa version in Japan until they attacked the British Empire.

    That's why I was asking whether that was the context.
    “ Churchill of course was not opposed to all nationalism. “

    So Churchill only opposed to some use of Nationalism? Can you say which are those, when it’s fair and good and not good?
    I did!
  • EU and NATO states swing behind US belief that Russia is preparing to invade Ukraine after unprecedented level of intelligence-sharing, as allies back Biden’s demand for tough deterrence package ahead of Putin call https://ft.com/content/b287f2e3-3b8b-4095-b704-c255a943c84c @FinancialTimes

    https://twitter.com/HenryJFoy/status/1467592759632543744?s=20
  • maaarshmaaarsh Posts: 3,587
    Lewis in interview just said Max is the dirtiest driver he's ever faced and thinks the rules don't apply to him. Surprisingly honest.
  • MoonRabbitMoonRabbit Posts: 13,446

    Christian Horner should be stripped of British citizenship and charged with treason.

    Or forced to marry Ginger Spice.
  • Sir Lewis also summoned to the stewards over the same incident as the Dutch shunt.
  • ThomasNasheThomasNashe Posts: 5,331
    If Hamilton does win the title - especially given the way he's fought back - I think it opens up SPOTY again. Astonishing and unprecedented though her US open win was, the Rad has not subsequently pulled up many trees.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 70,933

    maaarsh said:

    That was some stupid shit. The "brake test" was moronic but wasn't quite as black and white as suggested. Loved the Mercedes / Masi call where they protested about knowing nothing about it and Masi points out he told the guy personally.

    But - and its a big but. Don't start moving around when you're handing the place over. Verstappen is going to get his arse kicked. Can we also talk about the repeated "racecraft" incidents including both Hamilton and Arse on the go slow?

    Hamilton will win the title and deservedly so. But can we please avoid this shitbox race next year?

    Max slammed the brakes on as he wanted Lewis to overtake before DRS detection point so he could re-overtake 2 seconds later. It shows what a lunatic he is he thought that would be an outcome which wouldn't generate a penalty.
    What rule does that break? If it doesn't break any, that seems like clever tactics.

    Leaving the track and cutting the corner seemed a bigger issue to me.
    He was weaving unpredictably across the track and then braked sharply.
    There is absolutely no reason for Hamilton to run into him (risking a DNF which would have ended his championship challenge) other than being taken by surprise. You don’t brake test someone when you’ve been instructed to let them past,
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,437

    EU and NATO states swing behind US belief that Russia is preparing to invade Ukraine after unprecedented level of intelligence-sharing, as allies back Biden’s demand for tough deterrence package ahead of Putin call https://ft.com/content/b287f2e3-3b8b-4095-b704-c255a943c84c @FinancialTimes

    https://twitter.com/HenryJFoy/status/1467592759632543744?s=20

    Realistically NATO boots on the ground is the only thing that will really stop the Russians.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,321
    maaarsh said:

    Lewis in interview just said Max is the dirtiest driver he's ever faced and thinks the rules don't apply to him. Surprisingly honest.

    Well, yes, it would be if you meant what you've written. But I am assuming you've just been a mite careless and you actually meant:

    'Max is the dirtiest driver he's ever faced, somebody who thinks the rules don't apply to him.'
  • F1 is boring, just cars whizzing around in a circle. Also causes pollution, because the vehicles aren't electric.

    So there!

    Actually F1 has quite possibly been very good for the environment, not negative for it.

    A lot of technological and efficiency advances have been developed for F1 vehicles that have then reached general vehicles as a result. Since there's only a few F1 vehicles but there's billions of general vehicles, improving efficiency in general vehicles more than makes up for any fuel consumed in F1.
  • EU and NATO states swing behind US belief that Russia is preparing to invade Ukraine after unprecedented level of intelligence-sharing, as allies back Biden’s demand for tough deterrence package ahead of Putin call https://ft.com/content/b287f2e3-3b8b-4095-b704-c255a943c84c @FinancialTimes

    https://twitter.com/HenryJFoy/status/1467592759632543744?s=20

    Realistically NATO boots on the ground is the only thing that will really stop the Russians.
    I fear so. Threats of "sanctions" won't cut it.
  • WhisperingOracleWhisperingOracle Posts: 9,117
    edited December 2021

    EU and NATO states swing behind US belief that Russia is preparing to invade Ukraine after unprecedented level of intelligence-sharing, as allies back Biden’s demand for tough deterrence package ahead of Putin call https://ft.com/content/b287f2e3-3b8b-4095-b704-c255a943c84c @FinancialTimes

    https://twitter.com/HenryJFoy/status/1467592759632543744?s=20

    Realistically NATO boots on the ground is the only thing that will really stop the Russians.
    On Saturday the US made what it described as the largest transfer ever of military equipment in one day, to the Greek port of Alexandroupoli, with a view to the Black Sea. It's simltaneously a hedge against Erdogan trying to bring things through the Bosphorous without US permission, which naturally infuriates him.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,696

    EU and NATO states swing behind US belief that Russia is preparing to invade Ukraine after unprecedented level of intelligence-sharing, as allies back Biden’s demand for tough deterrence package ahead of Putin call https://ft.com/content/b287f2e3-3b8b-4095-b704-c255a943c84c @FinancialTimes

    https://twitter.com/HenryJFoy/status/1467592759632543744?s=20

    Realistically NATO boots on the ground is the only thing that will really stop the Russians.
    And then the question becomes whether the UK or US want to expend blood and treasure defending Ukraine for the EU and receive little to nothing on return except more insults.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,922

    EU and NATO states swing behind US belief that Russia is preparing to invade Ukraine after unprecedented level of intelligence-sharing, as allies back Biden’s demand for tough deterrence package ahead of Putin call https://ft.com/content/b287f2e3-3b8b-4095-b704-c255a943c84c @FinancialTimes

    https://twitter.com/HenryJFoy/status/1467592759632543744?s=20

    Realistically NATO boots on the ground is the only thing that will really stop the Russians.
    On Saturday the US made what it described as the largest transfer ever of military equipment in one day, to the Greek port of Alexandroupoli, with a view to the Black Sea.
    Bigger than D-Day?
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,048

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    Farooq said:

    DavidL said:

    Sandpit said:

    Another day, another example of David Cameron’s Twitter maxim.

    Why are political parties still not properly vetting their candidates’ social media histories, when they know that not-so-friendly opponents and newspapers definitely will be?

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10276171/Lib-Dem-candidate-apologises-appearing-liken-Channel-migrants-Jewish-prisoners.html

    Helen Morgan, Lib Dem candidate in North Shropshire with today’s Godwin award, for writing, in the context of her son reading a book about the Holocaust:

    “He commented that the Nazis were only able to do such terrible things because they didn’t think their victims were people. He’s 11. On Twitter this morning, there are people talking about cancelling their RNLI donations because they have picked up “illegals”. The language used every day in this country – by the Government, press and people with thousands of followers on social media – it’s nothing short of chilling.”

    Then she liked a post from someone who replied:

    ‘Having visited Auschwitz concentration camp in the recent past. It really brings home man’s inhumanity to man. Now on a daily basis the language and actions of the Conservative Party make me more and more concerned about the direction they are taking the UK and its people.’

    Her own post is totally on the money. The post she liked is perhaps a bit over the top. But I'm sure that plenty of people share the sentiment that the othering and scapegoating of refugees that's going on in this country right now is chilling, and, for anyone with a knowledge of European history, has some alarming historical resonances.
    The suggestion that the Tories are similar to the Nazis in outlook and policies is absurd and, frankly, as good an example of "othering" as you will find. The SNP do very similar things demonising something like 25% of Scots who vote Tory and who, as a result, are apparently not real Scots. It also encourages the arrogance and moral superiority complex that so many liberals, in the broadest sense, are prone to and is one of the reasons that they fail at the ballot box.

    There was a chap about 2000 years ago who had some interesting observations about motes and beams. She should reflect on it.
    Thank goodness Tories and Unionists never indulge in that kind of behaviour (I couldn’t find the photoshop of Sturgeon in an SS uniform so beloved by your fruitier fellow travellers, I suspect twitter may have banned it). Motes and beams indeed.

    https://twitter.com/professorfergus/status/1444259197168799746?s=21
    This one, TUD? https://3.bp.blogspot.com/-_LjFitWgTf4/Wt8-pz0fuWI/AAAAAAAAQAc/6_ClSDp8SuEHs-JBe560EHnlG9AzBF1NwCLcBGAs/s1600/.jpg
    That’s the one.
    Ironically what one might call the far right in Scotland tends to Unionism.
    That’s a very seriously point actually as to why the SNP are wrong. Like Hitler they love the politics of nationalism.
    SNP won’t last much longer. People of Scotland will tire of the Nationalism spectacles, gravitate to another approach and Scot nationalism will go back to be a fringe thing.
    I see you’re as insightful and original on this topic as on others.
    😕
    I’m genuine sorry if I touched a nerve on Scottish Separatism that matters to you. To be honest divvy I really would like to listen and learn here as I have never chatted with SNP before. can you answer a few straightforward questions about it?

    1. Last time ref said it wanted to keep both the £ and the Monarchy? Will that be exactly the same in the next ref?
    2. Really? Having both those things, is it proper independence from continued English and London influence? or a sort of half way house have your cake and eat it independence?
    3. Surely the only True definition of independence is own currency and negotiate trade deal with what’s left of UK and everywhere else? Like Ireland? Because the place to avoid is the basket case facade democracy, Zimbabwe ending up in, you can have a parliament but not own the land, the resources, the ability to tax the necessary amount of wealth?
    4. If Scotland has independence from England, does it have the economy and assets to maintain the current lifestyle, free higher education etc, enough wealth owned, invested and generated, to tax, to maintain standards of living it currently enjoys? What main industry will it have other than tourism?
    5. Basically boils down to simple question, are the English currently takers from Scotland, Scotland takers from England, or current balance about right and fair?
    6. If you want to keep the monarchy, then why not trust a Royal Commission how we can share these Isles, in a helping sharing UK commonwealth (which it should already have been the last few hundred years) where everyone’s regional and local identity feels in a happy place? But To create such a happy place cannot be achieved through ramping nationalism and localism, and holding separatist referendums, can it?
    On the whole currency thing, I think it's widely acknowledged that the proposal to keep the pound was disingenuously sold and very poor politics. The factual point about it being viable in the short term was true, but it was an impossible message to sell to the public. I think the reality was that as soon as independence happened, or possibly even as part of the negotiations, the Scottish government would have pivoted away from that and launched their own currency / gone straight to the Euro if the EU accession fast-track would have been on. As a long term proposal, using the pound wouldn't have worked and I think the people saw through that particular ruse.
    Keeping the monarchy is a different matter. I'm certain the Scottish government wouldn't have moved at all on changing that. I can foresee a future, post-independence campaign for it, but I don't know whether it would really get the traction, and nobody on the mild-republican side of Scottish politics would want to risk their own position fighting a losing battle.

    As for the comments comparing any mainstream UK party with the Nazis, you're clearly an idiot.
    Thank you for what was almost a measured response. 🙂

    Hitler was a Nazi - Not a nationalist? So I can’t make a comparison between SNP and all parties and all politicians who exploit nationalism? Who Wrap them themselves in flags? Wear nationalist glasses?

    If I can’t, I do apologise.

    No you can't and yes you should apologise. Equating all nationalist movements - or even most of them - with the Nazis is clearly both ignorant and stupid. Was Gandhi a Nazi? Were those fighting for independence for South Somalia or East Timor Nazis? Any of the countries who gained independence from European power post colonialism?

    You might as well equate vegetarians and animal lovers with Nazis as Hitler was both of those. And sadly some have even tried to do that though I would have hoped most posting on PB has a bit more intelligence than that.
    I appreciate Richards explanation to me has a lot of likes now. I do apologies to everyone I have clumsily insulted today. I obviously don’t understand this stuff at all well.

    Because I always believed when politicians reached for Nationalism it was not such a good thing. Like this Winston Churchill quote “Patriotism is when love of your own people comes first; nationalism, when hate for people other than your own comes first”.

    So being called Nationalist Party is confusing guide to their politics that is really just democratic and patriotic.

    If any silver lining at all I am listening and learning thank you all, so please keep pointing out my mistakes so I can get it right when Prime Minister. Thank you. 🙏🏻
    Wasn't that in the context of intriguing against Neville Chamberlain's attempt to rebrand the Conservative party as the National party?
    I don’t know 🤷‍♀️

    What he is saying seems very black and white, but I learned today Nationalism used in politics is rather more nuanced than I ever realised.
    Neville Chamberlain led the National Government (and refused ever to be called 'Conservative' which he described as an 'odious name') and which included the National Liberals and the National Labour Party as well as non-party MPs elected to support the National government e.g. Sir John Anderson. He wanted to unite them all in one party under that name. Never quite happened although had he been able to lead them into an election in 1939 or 1940 it might have been.

    Churchill of course was not opposed to all nationalism. He was for example, quite happy with Mussolini's version or with the Showa version in Japan until they attacked the British Empire.

    That's why I was asking whether that was the context.
    “ Churchill of course was not opposed to all nationalism. “

    So Churchill only opposed to some use of Nationalism? Can you say which are those, when it’s fair and good and not good? I still feel a disconnect between me and the whole of PB. I’ll have a go at answering my own question.

    When Gordon Brown wrapped himself in Union Jack at Party conference with British Jobs for British Workers, I still feel that was 100% wrong. Apart from the fact it stopped the weird milliband brother becoming Prime Minister. All because he hard questions to answer, but instead of asking him for those answers his conference lapped it up as he said it.

    I didn’t mean to imply Gordon Brown and Nicola sturgeons are Nazi as I never believed that and how you all painted me. But, and you have put doubts in my mind, and it may be idiot to still think like this, if politicians want supporters lapping it up and not scrutinising, I always felt they are using some techniques of Adolf Hitlers playbook without actually being full Nazi, if that makes sense. Avoiding scrutiny by placing a flag between him and the questions.

    I don’t think Nationalism is always used so fair and proper as you and certainly Richards post, and everyone else here believe. I may be on my own, but I still feel a gulf between us.
    Have you read...

    https://www.orwellfoundation.com/the-orwell-foundation/orwell/essays-and-other-works/notes-on-nationalism/

    Still one of the best summations of the topic of nationalism that has been written, in my opinion.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,321
    RobD said:

    EU and NATO states swing behind US belief that Russia is preparing to invade Ukraine after unprecedented level of intelligence-sharing, as allies back Biden’s demand for tough deterrence package ahead of Putin call https://ft.com/content/b287f2e3-3b8b-4095-b704-c255a943c84c @FinancialTimes

    https://twitter.com/HenryJFoy/status/1467592759632543744?s=20

    Realistically NATO boots on the ground is the only thing that will really stop the Russians.
    On Saturday the US made what it described as the largest transfer ever of military equipment in one day, to the Greek port of Alexandroupoli, with a view to the Black Sea.
    Bigger than D-Day?
    If it's bigger than Okinawa it must be going some.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,723
    Just to hark the herald angels back a little to what we were discussing earlier re parties -

    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/picture/2021/dec/05/ben-jennings-on-boris-johnson-and-the-no-10-christmas-party-cartoon
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 23,479
    edited December 2021

    Expect the definitive verdict on what covid rules will apply over Christmas at the end of next week - 17th or thereabouts.

    Key data esp on vaccine efficacy vs ο still not available.

    Story @theipaper: https://t.co/Qx6IR6KOrG

    That ‘story’ is a nothing burger - there is no news in it whatsoever. A shamefully rubbish front page (non) story.
    Instead of which, nearly all of the press seems to have missed the drugs-in-Boris Johnson's office-toilets, and Lindsey Hoyle calling in the police story today. Most odd.
    I

    Lockdown incoming, we have lost control of the virus yet again

    No we haven’t. We still don’t know how serious omicron will be. If most cases are mild, there will be no issue. We anxiously wait on hard data, and must make do with anecdotes in the interim. Some good news today from SA. All is not lost.
    Yes. Given the fact that most SA medics say this is a mild(er) variant, some early analysis suggest it’s a mild(er) variant and most patients are presenting with mild(er) symptoms, is there not a whiff of a chance that it is, er, a milder variant?
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,644
    So the reigning champion delivered a masterclass performance to defeat the reckless challenger again today.

    But enough about the chess, what happened in the motor car racing thingy?
  • MoonRabbitMoonRabbit Posts: 13,446

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    Farooq said:

    DavidL said:

    Sandpit said:

    Another day, another example of David Cameron’s Twitter maxim.

    Why are political parties still not properly vetting their candidates’ social media histories, when they know that not-so-friendly opponents and newspapers definitely will be?

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10276171/Lib-Dem-candidate-apologises-appearing-liken-Channel-migrants-Jewish-prisoners.html

    Helen Morgan, Lib Dem candidate in North Shropshire with today’s Godwin award, for writing, in the context of her son reading a book about the Holocaust:

    “He commented that the Nazis were only able to do such terrible things because they didn’t think their victims were people. He’s 11. On Twitter this morning, there are people talking about cancelling their RNLI donations because they have picked up “illegals”. The language used every day in this country – by the Government, press and people with thousands of followers on social media – it’s nothing short of chilling.”

    Then she liked a post from someone who replied:

    ‘Having visited Auschwitz concentration camp in the recent past. It really brings home man’s inhumanity to man. Now on a daily basis the language and actions of the Conservative Party make me more and more concerned about the direction they are taking the UK and its people.’

    Her own post is totally on the money. The post she liked is perhaps a bit over the top. But I'm sure that plenty of people share the sentiment that the othering and scapegoating of refugees that's going on in this country right now is chilling, and, for anyone with a knowledge of European history, has some alarming historical resonances.
    The suggestion that the Tories are similar to the Nazis in outlook and policies is absurd and, frankly, as good an example of "othering" as you will find. The SNP do very similar things demonising something like 25% of Scots who vote Tory and who, as a result, are apparently not real Scots. It also encourages the arrogance and moral superiority complex that so many liberals, in the broadest sense, are prone to and is one of the reasons that they fail at the ballot box.

    There was a chap about 2000 years ago who had some interesting observations about motes and beams. She should reflect on it.
    Thank goodness Tories and Unionists never indulge in that kind of behaviour (I couldn’t find the photoshop of Sturgeon in an SS uniform so beloved by your fruitier fellow travellers, I suspect twitter may have banned it). Motes and beams indeed.

    https://twitter.com/professorfergus/status/1444259197168799746?s=21
    This one, TUD? https://3.bp.blogspot.com/-_LjFitWgTf4/Wt8-pz0fuWI/AAAAAAAAQAc/6_ClSDp8SuEHs-JBe560EHnlG9AzBF1NwCLcBGAs/s1600/.jpg
    That’s the one.
    Ironically what one might call the far right in Scotland tends to Unionism.
    That’s a very seriously point actually as to why the SNP are wrong. Like Hitler they love the politics of nationalism.
    SNP won’t last much longer. People of Scotland will tire of the Nationalism spectacles, gravitate to another approach and Scot nationalism will go back to be a fringe thing.
    I see you’re as insightful and original on this topic as on others.
    😕
    I’m genuine sorry if I touched a nerve on Scottish Separatism that matters to you. To be honest divvy I really would like to listen and learn here as I have never chatted with SNP before. can you answer a few straightforward questions about it?

    1. Last time ref said it wanted to keep both the £ and the Monarchy? Will that be exactly the same in the next ref?
    2. Really? Having both those things, is it proper independence from continued English and London influence? or a sort of half way house have your cake and eat it independence?
    3. Surely the only True definition of independence is own currency and negotiate trade deal with what’s left of UK and everywhere else? Like Ireland? Because the place to avoid is the basket case facade democracy, Zimbabwe ending up in, you can have a parliament but not own the land, the resources, the ability to tax the necessary amount of wealth?
    4. If Scotland has independence from England, does it have the economy and assets to maintain the current lifestyle, free higher education etc, enough wealth owned, invested and generated, to tax, to maintain standards of living it currently enjoys? What main industry will it have other than tourism?
    5. Basically boils down to simple question, are the English currently takers from Scotland, Scotland takers from England, or current balance about right and fair?
    6. If you want to keep the monarchy, then why not trust a Royal Commission how we can share these Isles, in a helping sharing UK commonwealth (which it should already have been the last few hundred years) where everyone’s regional and local identity feels in a happy place? But To create such a happy place cannot be achieved through ramping nationalism and localism, and holding separatist referendums, can it?
    On the whole currency thing, I think it's widely acknowledged that the proposal to keep the pound was disingenuously sold and very poor politics. The factual point about it being viable in the short term was true, but it was an impossible message to sell to the public. I think the reality was that as soon as independence happened, or possibly even as part of the negotiations, the Scottish government would have pivoted away from that and launched their own currency / gone straight to the Euro if the EU accession fast-track would have been on. As a long term proposal, using the pound wouldn't have worked and I think the people saw through that particular ruse.
    Keeping the monarchy is a different matter. I'm certain the Scottish government wouldn't have moved at all on changing that. I can foresee a future, post-independence campaign for it, but I don't know whether it would really get the traction, and nobody on the mild-republican side of Scottish politics would want to risk their own position fighting a losing battle.

    As for the comments comparing any mainstream UK party with the Nazis, you're clearly an idiot.
    Thank you for what was almost a measured response. 🙂

    Hitler was a Nazi - Not a nationalist? So I can’t make a comparison between SNP and all parties and all politicians who exploit nationalism? Who Wrap them themselves in flags? Wear nationalist glasses?

    If I can’t, I do apologise.

    No you can't and yes you should apologise. Equating all nationalist movements - or even most of them - with the Nazis is clearly both ignorant and stupid. Was Gandhi a Nazi? Were those fighting for independence for South Somalia or East Timor Nazis? Any of the countries who gained independence from European power post colonialism?

    You might as well equate vegetarians and animal lovers with Nazis as Hitler was both of those. And sadly some have even tried to do that though I would have hoped most posting on PB has a bit more intelligence than that.
    I appreciate Richards explanation to me has a lot of likes now. I do apologies to everyone I have clumsily insulted today. I obviously don’t understand this stuff at all well.

    Because I always believed when politicians reached for Nationalism it was not such a good thing. Like this Winston Churchill quote “Patriotism is when love of your own people comes first; nationalism, when hate for people other than your own comes first”.

    So being called Nationalist Party is confusing guide to their politics that is really just democratic and patriotic.

    If any silver lining at all I am listening and learning thank you all, so please keep pointing out my mistakes so I can get it right when Prime Minister. Thank you. 🙏🏻
    Wasn't that in the context of intriguing against Neville Chamberlain's attempt to rebrand the Conservative party as the National party?
    I don’t know 🤷‍♀️

    What he is saying seems very black and white, but I learned today Nationalism used in politics is rather more nuanced than I ever realised.
    Neville Chamberlain led the National Government (and refused ever to be called 'Conservative' which he described as an 'odious name') and which included the National Liberals and the National Labour Party as well as non-party MPs elected to support the National government e.g. Sir John Anderson. He wanted to unite them all in one party under that name. Never quite happened although had he been able to lead them into an election in 1939 or 1940 it might have been.

    Churchill of course was not opposed to all nationalism. He was for example, quite happy with Mussolini's version or with the Showa version in Japan until they attacked the British Empire.

    That's why I was asking whether that was the context.
    “ Churchill of course was not opposed to all nationalism. “

    So Churchill only opposed to some use of Nationalism? Can you say which are those, when it’s fair and good and not good? I still feel a disconnect between me and the whole of PB. I’ll have a go at answering my own question.

    When Gordon Brown wrapped himself in Union Jack at Party conference with British Jobs for British Workers, I still feel that was 100% wrong. Apart from the fact it stopped the weird milliband brother becoming Prime Minister. All because he hard questions to answer, but instead of asking him for those answers his conference lapped it up as he said it.

    I didn’t mean to imply Gordon Brown and Nicola sturgeons are Nazi as I never believed that and how you all painted me. But, and you have put doubts in my mind, and it may be idiot to still think like this, if politicians want supporters lapping it up and not scrutinising, I always felt they are using some techniques of Adolf Hitlers playbook without actually being full Nazi, if that makes sense. Avoiding scrutiny by placing a flag between him and the questions.

    I don’t think Nationalism is always used so fair and proper as you and certainly Richards post, and everyone else here believe. I may be on my own, but I still feel a gulf between us.
    Have you read...

    https://www.orwellfoundation.com/the-orwell-foundation/orwell/essays-and-other-works/notes-on-nationalism/

    Still one of the best summations of the topic of nationalism that has been written, in my opinion.
    Thank you. 👍🏻 Going off to read it now with paper and pencil whilst it’s bouncing in my mind.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,321
    edited December 2021
    Brecel now in deeper trouble than Horner if he dines at a restaurant owned by TSE.

    (Edit - I know TSE isn't a restauranter, I'm just imagining scenarios where TSE gets his revenge by buying Horner's favourite restaurant and ordering all pizza be served with pineapple and arsenic.)
  • If Hamilton does win the title - especially given the way he's fought back - I think it opens up SPOTY again. Astonishing and unprecedented though her US open win was, the Rad has not subsequently pulled up many trees.

    In tennis, the only things which count are the Slams (and arguably the Olympics and Davis/BJK Cups). She hasn't played in any of those since the US Open win.
This discussion has been closed.