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Neither Johnson nor his deputy Raab come out of this well – politicalbetting.com

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Comments

  • JBriskin3JBriskin3 Posts: 1,254
    kinabalu said:

    JBriskin3 said:

    kinabalu said:

    isam said:

    kinabalu said:

    isam said:

    kinabalu said:

    TOPPING said:



    kinabalu said:

    Farooq said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    I've just been Googling "Sadiq Khan" to see what he is actually *doing*

    Not much. But a few things. eg He is doing THIS

    "Sadiq Khan has unveiled £25,000 grants to help people change street names as part of a diversity campaign launched following Black Lives Matter protests.

    "The Mayor of London has announced a £1 million fund that will be shared out among community groups, including those wishing to campaign to alter potentially offensive road names.

    "Grants of up to £25,000 will support groups through all aspects of the process of changing street names, which could include enlisting consultants and compensating residents.

    "The Untold Stories fund is part of the Commission for Diversity in the Public Realm, which was established following Black Lives Matter protests to diversify artwork and statuary that came under scrutiny for commemorating figures linked to empire and slavery."

    Utterly pointless Woke bullshit, which also wastes money. Brilliant

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2021/10/21/black-boy-lane-diversity-drive-sadiq-khan-plans-25000-grants/

    And THIS:

    "London mayor Sadiq Khan has urged the government to make face coverings mandatory on public transport as the UK continues to average more than 40,000 confirmed coronavirus cases a day for over a week."

    He wants us all to mask up again. That's an inspired and innovative policy. Who saw that coming?

    https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/sadiq-khan-mandatory-face-masks-public-transport-b1947540.html

    He's just extended the ULEZ zone which at a stroke has stopped me gadding around in my big polluting Merc. Whilst I'm not his greatest fan, eg he comes over to me as a careerist, and as I say he's making me walk everywhere, it has to be noted that much of the more visceral dislike of him is driven by him being Muslim. Not you, of course, but it's undeniably in the mix. Which is disappointing to see.
    It is deniably in the mix.
    He’s just crap.

    The only person to bring up his Muslim-ness was the equally crap Zac Goldsmith.
    So iyo there are hardly any people whose dislike of him is driven by anti-Muslim prejudice? I think that's an absurdly optimistic notion. Please note I'm not in any way implying that any particular person who thinks he's rubbish is being influenced by this. It's not a smear against anybody to point out that prejudice is in the mix. Neither is it to say he isn't rubbish or some 'lefty comfort blanket' against something or other. It's just a factual comment.
    implying that any particular person who thinks he's rubbish is being influenced by this
    But if you're thinking it, I am too. I doubt we'd be the only ones.
    Ah but hang on. Take gardenwalker for eg, I am totally NOT thinking this. I must have read 1000 of his posts and not a trace of anti-muslim prejudice. Not even thinking it about leon where there has been fruitiness sometimes. Tbh it's more about where you see the quite wild-eyed stuff said about him. I think he's testified about it. He gets a lot. There, you have racism rearing its head, no question. What you also get is the slightly brighter and cagey type of racist who keeps a grip on what they say and stays carefully deniable. You know the type.
    Ah yes. The people you "just know" are racist, but haven't actually done anything racist.

    Bit like the witches. If I wasn't out, 24/7, burning them...
    LOL this is the bad old kini.

    As I noted several months ago in a post when he was flinging around accusations of racism (amended for his posts today):

    "What you have to remember is that because @kinabalu for some unknown reason is very insecure he is invested in belittling views of nationality and what it means to be British and how one should react to people who are not white working class.

    He does this because as a white working class lad made good (very good) and now moved away from his roots, he is confused about what he is supposed to think about these things. He feels he should condemn anyone who even mentions nationality or religion but has no views himself on them. He literally has no idea how to approach the idea of criticising someone who is not an "easy" target (ie WWC).

    And hence when he bumps into people, like @Leon for example, someone he believes he is far more successful and intelligent than, but someone who is far more confident in their own opinions on such to him delicate and taboo subjects, he has literally no answer."

    Holds as true today as it always has done.
    Nice couch you have, Topping. Trouble is, I almost nodded off.

    Same time next week?
    Damn unsolicited diagnoses! He’ll be devising a scoring system to rank people next
    Ah, I sense a reference to my simple yet rather sophisticated 'Class Indicator' test that you, almost alone on here, refused to take. And I could never understand why. Still, no point revisiting. The past is another country.
    Doing those kind of tests then broadcasting the results is a kind of needy vanity that I’d like to avoid. Not that I always do I suppose
    No clue why you're seeing it this way. 'Class' comes up a lot on here and I designed something neat to clarify and assist the discussions. Nothing untoward about it at all. As you'd know if you hadn't refused to co-operate.
    I want the Class test! Fire at will soldier.
    No need to test you. The result is in.
    I've made it pretty clear that I'm a DE.

    Is that what the test says?
  • Roger said:

    kle4 said:

    I'm a little surprised on the report Labour are calling for an investigation specifically into Cox. It seems just an issue of him being an extreme example of how much you can earn doing another job as an MP than raking in money because you are an MP. Surely investigation should be for where there is a suggestion of wrongdoing (which the BBC report says there is not in his case), and the issue of having second jobs at all, and how much time you spend on them, is a matter for debate and discussion?


    Looks as if Labour are overplaying their hand


    https://twitter.com/GuidoFawkes/status/1458103687235125248?t=XDy4f163ezzoBYHNTLUmFA&s=19
    and while you and three others were reading Guido 2,000,000 were listening to this. (Its very good!)

    https://www.thelondoneconomic.com/news/osmosis-of-corruption-the-viral-james-obrien-video-that-has-racked-up-over-2-million-views-300298/
    Deflection from a story is a sad attempt to mask a genuine rebuke to Labour unless you are saying it is made up
    Do you think this story will dominate the front pages and news cycle like the Paterson story did?
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,261
    Distressing video of a child, apparently, almost dying on that border


    https://twitter.com/Mzhda_112/status/1458125876370059269?s=20


    God. WTF does Europe do? It will be minus 3 there tonight (or lower, in the middle of a forest). Minus 7 next Monday


    https://www.bbc.co.uk/weather/776069
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,799

    Leon said:


    Tfl DOES require masks

    https://tfl.gov.uk/campaign/face-coverings

    However I wonder what is the legal basis for this. It's notable they don't mention fines, so maybe this is a bit of a charade, and they actually don't have the power to enforce this?

    The best characterisation of mask policy in England is "1 - Recommended"

    1 to 2 on the definition given. They are 'required' in some places (TFL, hospitals, care homes, and in Scotland on public transport), even if it's not a legally-enforceable requirement.
    Legally it's only the last three, though I'm not sure about Scotland (there be dragons, or is that Wales?).
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,071
    We did it in Turkey didn't we?
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,124
    kle4 said:

    kinabalu said:

    isam said:

    kinabalu said:

    TOPPING said:



    kinabalu said:

    Farooq said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    I've just been Googling "Sadiq Khan" to see what he is actually *doing*

    Not much. But a few things. eg He is doing THIS

    "Sadiq Khan has unveiled £25,000 grants to help people change street names as part of a diversity campaign launched following Black Lives Matter protests.

    "The Mayor of London has announced a £1 million fund that will be shared out among community groups, including those wishing to campaign to alter potentially offensive road names.

    "Grants of up to £25,000 will support groups through all aspects of the process of changing street names, which could include enlisting consultants and compensating residents.

    "The Untold Stories fund is part of the Commission for Diversity in the Public Realm, which was established following Black Lives Matter protests to diversify artwork and statuary that came under scrutiny for commemorating figures linked to empire and slavery."

    Utterly pointless Woke bullshit, which also wastes money. Brilliant

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2021/10/21/black-boy-lane-diversity-drive-sadiq-khan-plans-25000-grants/

    And THIS:

    "London mayor Sadiq Khan has urged the government to make face coverings mandatory on public transport as the UK continues to average more than 40,000 confirmed coronavirus cases a day for over a week."

    He wants us all to mask up again. That's an inspired and innovative policy. Who saw that coming?

    https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/sadiq-khan-mandatory-face-masks-public-transport-b1947540.html

    He's just extended the ULEZ zone which at a stroke has stopped me gadding around in my big polluting Merc. Whilst I'm not his greatest fan, eg he comes over to me as a careerist, and as I say he's making me walk everywhere, it has to be noted that much of the more visceral dislike of him is driven by him being Muslim. Not you, of course, but it's undeniably in the mix. Which is disappointing to see.
    It is deniably in the mix.
    He’s just crap.

    The only person to bring up his Muslim-ness was the equally crap Zac Goldsmith.
    So iyo there are hardly any people whose dislike of him is driven by anti-Muslim prejudice? I think that's an absurdly optimistic notion. Please note I'm not in any way implying that any particular person who thinks he's rubbish is being influenced by this. It's not a smear against anybody to point out that prejudice is in the mix. Neither is it to say he isn't rubbish or some 'lefty comfort blanket' against something or other. It's just a factual comment.
    implying that any particular person who thinks he's rubbish is being influenced by this
    But if you're thinking it, I am too. I doubt we'd be the only ones.
    Ah but hang on. Take gardenwalker for eg, I am totally NOT thinking this. I must have read 1000 of his posts and not a trace of anti-muslim prejudice. Not even thinking it about leon where there has been fruitiness sometimes. Tbh it's more about where you see the quite wild-eyed stuff said about him. I think he's testified about it. He gets a lot. There, you have racism rearing its head, no question. What you also get is the slightly brighter and cagey type of racist who keeps a grip on what they say and stays carefully deniable. You know the type.
    Ah yes. The people you "just know" are racist, but haven't actually done anything racist.

    Bit like the witches. If I wasn't out, 24/7, burning them...
    LOL this is the bad old kini.

    As I noted several months ago in a post when he was flinging around accusations of racism (amended for his posts today):

    "What you have to remember is that because @kinabalu for some unknown reason is very insecure he is invested in belittling views of nationality and what it means to be British and how one should react to people who are not white working class.

    He does this because as a white working class lad made good (very good) and now moved away from his roots, he is confused about what he is supposed to think about these things. He feels he should condemn anyone who even mentions nationality or religion but has no views himself on them. He literally has no idea how to approach the idea of criticising someone who is not an "easy" target (ie WWC).

    And hence when he bumps into people, like @Leon for example, someone he believes he is far more successful and intelligent than, but someone who is far more confident in their own opinions on such to him delicate and taboo subjects, he has literally no answer."

    Holds as true today as it always has done.
    Nice couch you have, Topping. Trouble is, I almost nodded off.

    Same time next week?
    Damn unsolicited diagnoses! He’ll be devising a scoring system to rank people next
    Ah, I sense a reference to my simple yet rather sophisticated 'Class Indicator' test that you, almost alone on here, refused to take. And I could never understand why. Still, no point revisiting. The past is another country.
    I must have missed it or forgotten it - what was the class indicator test?
    But you did it! You scored 14 if I recall. Which was about what you expected.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,246
    UK cases by specimen date

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  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,246
    UK cases by specimen date and scaled to 100K

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  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,246
    UK Local R

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  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 63,030
    edited November 2021
    Farooq said:

    Roger said:

    kle4 said:

    I'm a little surprised on the report Labour are calling for an investigation specifically into Cox. It seems just an issue of him being an extreme example of how much you can earn doing another job as an MP than raking in money because you are an MP. Surely investigation should be for where there is a suggestion of wrongdoing (which the BBC report says there is not in his case), and the issue of having second jobs at all, and how much time you spend on them, is a matter for debate and discussion?


    Looks as if Labour are overplaying their hand


    https://twitter.com/GuidoFawkes/status/1458103687235125248?t=XDy4f163ezzoBYHNTLUmFA&s=19
    and while you and three others were reading Guido 2,000,000 were listening to this. (Its very good!)

    https://www.thelondoneconomic.com/news/osmosis-of-corruption-the-viral-james-obrien-video-that-has-racked-up-over-2-million-views-300298/
    Deflection from a story is a sad attempt to mask a genuine rebuke to Labour unless you are saying it is made up
    Yes, I clicked your link and read the Guido story. I have to say, people will still be talking about it when the pyramids are dust. Forget the Boris sleaze stuff, THIS is the big news story. And if anyone accuses YOU of desperately trying to deflect something, ANYTHING onto Labour, they'll have ME to answer to.
    I have been as angry in my attacks on Boris as anyone, but it is also the case labour have been rebuked in this matter

    I do believe in balance and maybe others should
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,246
    UK case summary

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  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,071
    kinabalu said:

    kle4 said:

    kinabalu said:

    isam said:

    kinabalu said:

    TOPPING said:



    kinabalu said:

    Farooq said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    I've just been Googling "Sadiq Khan" to see what he is actually *doing*

    Not much. But a few things. eg He is doing THIS

    "Sadiq Khan has unveiled £25,000 grants to help people change street names as part of a diversity campaign launched following Black Lives Matter protests.

    "The Mayor of London has announced a £1 million fund that will be shared out among community groups, including those wishing to campaign to alter potentially offensive road names.

    "Grants of up to £25,000 will support groups through all aspects of the process of changing street names, which could include enlisting consultants and compensating residents.

    "The Untold Stories fund is part of the Commission for Diversity in the Public Realm, which was established following Black Lives Matter protests to diversify artwork and statuary that came under scrutiny for commemorating figures linked to empire and slavery."

    Utterly pointless Woke bullshit, which also wastes money. Brilliant

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2021/10/21/black-boy-lane-diversity-drive-sadiq-khan-plans-25000-grants/

    And THIS:

    "London mayor Sadiq Khan has urged the government to make face coverings mandatory on public transport as the UK continues to average more than 40,000 confirmed coronavirus cases a day for over a week."

    He wants us all to mask up again. That's an inspired and innovative policy. Who saw that coming?

    https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/sadiq-khan-mandatory-face-masks-public-transport-b1947540.html

    He's just extended the ULEZ zone which at a stroke has stopped me gadding around in my big polluting Merc. Whilst I'm not his greatest fan, eg he comes over to me as a careerist, and as I say he's making me walk everywhere, it has to be noted that much of the more visceral dislike of him is driven by him being Muslim. Not you, of course, but it's undeniably in the mix. Which is disappointing to see.
    It is deniably in the mix.
    He’s just crap.

    The only person to bring up his Muslim-ness was the equally crap Zac Goldsmith.
    So iyo there are hardly any people whose dislike of him is driven by anti-Muslim prejudice? I think that's an absurdly optimistic notion. Please note I'm not in any way implying that any particular person who thinks he's rubbish is being influenced by this. It's not a smear against anybody to point out that prejudice is in the mix. Neither is it to say he isn't rubbish or some 'lefty comfort blanket' against something or other. It's just a factual comment.
    implying that any particular person who thinks he's rubbish is being influenced by this
    But if you're thinking it, I am too. I doubt we'd be the only ones.
    Ah but hang on. Take gardenwalker for eg, I am totally NOT thinking this. I must have read 1000 of his posts and not a trace of anti-muslim prejudice. Not even thinking it about leon where there has been fruitiness sometimes. Tbh it's more about where you see the quite wild-eyed stuff said about him. I think he's testified about it. He gets a lot. There, you have racism rearing its head, no question. What you also get is the slightly brighter and cagey type of racist who keeps a grip on what they say and stays carefully deniable. You know the type.
    Ah yes. The people you "just know" are racist, but haven't actually done anything racist.

    Bit like the witches. If I wasn't out, 24/7, burning them...
    LOL this is the bad old kini.

    As I noted several months ago in a post when he was flinging around accusations of racism (amended for his posts today):

    "What you have to remember is that because @kinabalu for some unknown reason is very insecure he is invested in belittling views of nationality and what it means to be British and how one should react to people who are not white working class.

    He does this because as a white working class lad made good (very good) and now moved away from his roots, he is confused about what he is supposed to think about these things. He feels he should condemn anyone who even mentions nationality or religion but has no views himself on them. He literally has no idea how to approach the idea of criticising someone who is not an "easy" target (ie WWC).

    And hence when he bumps into people, like @Leon for example, someone he believes he is far more successful and intelligent than, but someone who is far more confident in their own opinions on such to him delicate and taboo subjects, he has literally no answer."

    Holds as true today as it always has done.
    Nice couch you have, Topping. Trouble is, I almost nodded off.

    Same time next week?
    Damn unsolicited diagnoses! He’ll be devising a scoring system to rank people next
    Ah, I sense a reference to my simple yet rather sophisticated 'Class Indicator' test that you, almost alone on here, refused to take. And I could never understand why. Still, no point revisiting. The past is another country.
    I must have missed it or forgotten it - what was the class indicator test?
    But you did it! You scored 14 if I recall. Which was about what you expected.
    Then I apologise for my forgetfulness.
  • Fuck Business Boris!

    :lol:
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,246
    UK hospitals

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  • kle4 said:

    kinabalu said:

    kle4 said:

    kinabalu said:

    isam said:

    kinabalu said:

    TOPPING said:



    kinabalu said:

    Farooq said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    I've just been Googling "Sadiq Khan" to see what he is actually *doing*

    Not much. But a few things. eg He is doing THIS

    "Sadiq Khan has unveiled £25,000 grants to help people change street names as part of a diversity campaign launched following Black Lives Matter protests.

    "The Mayor of London has announced a £1 million fund that will be shared out among community groups, including those wishing to campaign to alter potentially offensive road names.

    "Grants of up to £25,000 will support groups through all aspects of the process of changing street names, which could include enlisting consultants and compensating residents.

    "The Untold Stories fund is part of the Commission for Diversity in the Public Realm, which was established following Black Lives Matter protests to diversify artwork and statuary that came under scrutiny for commemorating figures linked to empire and slavery."

    Utterly pointless Woke bullshit, which also wastes money. Brilliant

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2021/10/21/black-boy-lane-diversity-drive-sadiq-khan-plans-25000-grants/

    And THIS:

    "London mayor Sadiq Khan has urged the government to make face coverings mandatory on public transport as the UK continues to average more than 40,000 confirmed coronavirus cases a day for over a week."

    He wants us all to mask up again. That's an inspired and innovative policy. Who saw that coming?

    https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/sadiq-khan-mandatory-face-masks-public-transport-b1947540.html

    He's just extended the ULEZ zone which at a stroke has stopped me gadding around in my big polluting Merc. Whilst I'm not his greatest fan, eg he comes over to me as a careerist, and as I say he's making me walk everywhere, it has to be noted that much of the more visceral dislike of him is driven by him being Muslim. Not you, of course, but it's undeniably in the mix. Which is disappointing to see.
    It is deniably in the mix.
    He’s just crap.

    The only person to bring up his Muslim-ness was the equally crap Zac Goldsmith.
    So iyo there are hardly any people whose dislike of him is driven by anti-Muslim prejudice? I think that's an absurdly optimistic notion. Please note I'm not in any way implying that any particular person who thinks he's rubbish is being influenced by this. It's not a smear against anybody to point out that prejudice is in the mix. Neither is it to say he isn't rubbish or some 'lefty comfort blanket' against something or other. It's just a factual comment.
    implying that any particular person who thinks he's rubbish is being influenced by this
    But if you're thinking it, I am too. I doubt we'd be the only ones.
    Ah but hang on. Take gardenwalker for eg, I am totally NOT thinking this. I must have read 1000 of his posts and not a trace of anti-muslim prejudice. Not even thinking it about leon where there has been fruitiness sometimes. Tbh it's more about where you see the quite wild-eyed stuff said about him. I think he's testified about it. He gets a lot. There, you have racism rearing its head, no question. What you also get is the slightly brighter and cagey type of racist who keeps a grip on what they say and stays carefully deniable. You know the type.
    Ah yes. The people you "just know" are racist, but haven't actually done anything racist.

    Bit like the witches. If I wasn't out, 24/7, burning them...
    LOL this is the bad old kini.

    As I noted several months ago in a post when he was flinging around accusations of racism (amended for his posts today):

    "What you have to remember is that because @kinabalu for some unknown reason is very insecure he is invested in belittling views of nationality and what it means to be British and how one should react to people who are not white working class.

    He does this because as a white working class lad made good (very good) and now moved away from his roots, he is confused about what he is supposed to think about these things. He feels he should condemn anyone who even mentions nationality or religion but has no views himself on them. He literally has no idea how to approach the idea of criticising someone who is not an "easy" target (ie WWC).

    And hence when he bumps into people, like @Leon for example, someone he believes he is far more successful and intelligent than, but someone who is far more confident in their own opinions on such to him delicate and taboo subjects, he has literally no answer."

    Holds as true today as it always has done.
    Nice couch you have, Topping. Trouble is, I almost nodded off.

    Same time next week?
    Damn unsolicited diagnoses! He’ll be devising a scoring system to rank people next
    Ah, I sense a reference to my simple yet rather sophisticated 'Class Indicator' test that you, almost alone on here, refused to take. And I could never understand why. Still, no point revisiting. The past is another country.
    I must have missed it or forgotten it - what was the class indicator test?
    But you did it! You scored 14 if I recall. Which was about what you expected.
    Then I apologise for my forgetfulness.
    Any class test that doesn't have me down as working class is deeply flawed.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,246
    UK deaths

    image
  • MaxPB said:

    Leon said:


    Tfl DOES require masks

    https://tfl.gov.uk/campaign/face-coverings

    However I wonder what is the legal basis for this. It's notable they don't mention fines, so maybe this is a bit of a charade, and they actually don't have the power to enforce this?

    The best characterisation of mask policy in England is "1 - Recommended"

    1 to 2 on the definition given. They are 'required' in some places (TFL, hospitals, care homes, and in Scotland on public transport), even if it's not a legally-enforceable requirement.
    Legally it's only the last three, though I'm not sure about Scotland (there be dragons, or is that Wales?).
    The definition doesn't specify that it's a legal requirement, so the pedant in me says it's 1 to 2, arguably more 2 than 1. (This is PB, after all. If we can't be pedantic here, where can we be pedantic?)
  • Roger said:

    kle4 said:

    I'm a little surprised on the report Labour are calling for an investigation specifically into Cox. It seems just an issue of him being an extreme example of how much you can earn doing another job as an MP than raking in money because you are an MP. Surely investigation should be for where there is a suggestion of wrongdoing (which the BBC report says there is not in his case), and the issue of having second jobs at all, and how much time you spend on them, is a matter for debate and discussion?


    Looks as if Labour are overplaying their hand


    https://twitter.com/GuidoFawkes/status/1458103687235125248?t=XDy4f163ezzoBYHNTLUmFA&s=19
    and while you and three others were reading Guido 2,000,000 were listening to this. (Its very good!)

    https://www.thelondoneconomic.com/news/osmosis-of-corruption-the-viral-james-obrien-video-that-has-racked-up-over-2-million-views-300298/
    Deflection from a story is a sad attempt to mask a genuine rebuke to Labour unless you are saying it is made up
    Do you think this story will dominate the front pages and news cycle like the Paterson story did?
    Of course not but why are so many upset by it being aired
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,653

    Roger said:

    kle4 said:

    I'm a little surprised on the report Labour are calling for an investigation specifically into Cox. It seems just an issue of him being an extreme example of how much you can earn doing another job as an MP than raking in money because you are an MP. Surely investigation should be for where there is a suggestion of wrongdoing (which the BBC report says there is not in his case), and the issue of having second jobs at all, and how much time you spend on them, is a matter for debate and discussion?


    Looks as if Labour are overplaying their hand


    https://twitter.com/GuidoFawkes/status/1458103687235125248?t=XDy4f163ezzoBYHNTLUmFA&s=19
    and while you and three others were reading Guido 2,000,000 were listening to this. (Its very good!)

    https://www.thelondoneconomic.com/news/osmosis-of-corruption-the-viral-james-obrien-video-that-has-racked-up-over-2-million-views-300298/
    Deflection from a story is a sad attempt to mask a genuine rebuke to Labour unless you are saying it is made up
    Surely Big_G the deflection was yours:

    You flagged up 'a rebuke to Labour's complaints about Patel' in response to their 'request for an investigation over Cox'. How have Labour 'over-played their hand' in requesting that investigation?
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,246
    Age related data

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  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,799

    MaxPB said:

    Leon said:


    Tfl DOES require masks

    https://tfl.gov.uk/campaign/face-coverings

    However I wonder what is the legal basis for this. It's notable they don't mention fines, so maybe this is a bit of a charade, and they actually don't have the power to enforce this?

    The best characterisation of mask policy in England is "1 - Recommended"

    1 to 2 on the definition given. They are 'required' in some places (TFL, hospitals, care homes, and in Scotland on public transport), even if it's not a legally-enforceable requirement.
    Legally it's only the last three, though I'm not sure about Scotland (there be dragons, or is that Wales?).
    The definition doesn't specify that it's a legal requirement, so the pedant in me says it's 1 to 2, arguably more 2 than 1. (This is PB, after all. If we can't be pedantic here, where can we be pedantic?)
    Is an unenforceable requirement actually a requirement or just a gentle reminder?
  • MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    Leon said:


    Tfl DOES require masks

    https://tfl.gov.uk/campaign/face-coverings

    However I wonder what is the legal basis for this. It's notable they don't mention fines, so maybe this is a bit of a charade, and they actually don't have the power to enforce this?

    The best characterisation of mask policy in England is "1 - Recommended"

    1 to 2 on the definition given. They are 'required' in some places (TFL, hospitals, care homes, and in Scotland on public transport), even if it's not a legally-enforceable requirement.
    Legally it's only the last three, though I'm not sure about Scotland (there be dragons, or is that Wales?).
    The definition doesn't specify that it's a legal requirement, so the pedant in me says it's 1 to 2, arguably more 2 than 1. (This is PB, after all. If we can't be pedantic here, where can we be pedantic?)
    Is an unenforceable requirement actually a requirement or just a gentle reminder?
    Don't ask me, I didn't create the categories!
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    Leon said:

    Alistair said:

    Leon said:

    Cyclefree said:

    TimT said:

    Leon said:

    Taz said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Off topic, Daughter and I were out in London last night. Restaurant and theatre packed. A most enjoyable evening and a much-needed break for Daughter. I am worried about the immense strain she is under.

    Anyway, on our way into town (separately from some other appointments) we both noticed one thing which annoyed us and will doubtless be dismissed by many on here as hyper-sensitivity. But here goes anyway.

    There is a long corridor on the interchange between the Piccadilly and Jubilee lines. On it there are various Pride posters with stories and photos from individuals. All very lovely. No objection to this at all.

    There were 29 posters. Only 7 of them were women and one of these was of a mother of a gay person. So only 6 gay women out of 29. 6 women. 22 men.

    Why so few women? Why so few gay women? Are their stories not worth telling?

    Daughter pointed out that whenever gay marriage is talked about or discussed it is very often accompanied by illustrations of gay men getting married. Not gay women. It annoyed her.

    Then on the Central line at Bond Street a big poster saying how London stands together against hate. Well, yes, who wouldn't be?

    The precise words used in the poster are these -

    "London stands together against hate directed at someone on our transport network because of race, religion, sexual orientation, disability or gender identity."

    All very lovely. But spot what's missing. "Sex" - a protected characteristic and probably one of the single biggest reasons for attacks on women and girls. The Mayor talks a good game about Violence against Women and Girls but he cannot bring himself to mention sex in this poster. He ignores the fact that it is a "protected characteristic" in law. He is happy to include characteristics which aren't. But something which is - and which is of great concern to women, especially in relation to the risks they face when travelling - is ignored.

    Why? Deliberate? Or just forgotten?

    These may seem like small matters. But this sort of unconscious overlooking of women, of the female experience is all too common, all too pervasive and, ironically, occurs at a time when diversity is trumpeted loudly by all sorts of people keen to promote their progressive credentials.

    I rather feel that the more people talk about diversity the less likely they are to listen to actual women or do anything practical to help them.

    One day we might have 29 posters with 22 of them of women, a few men and a token father. A 50/50 representation would be a start. And - imagine - those posters, those choices were all, I expect, signed off by lots of people in numerous meeting and none of those preparing and implementing this campaign noticed what two women at both ends of the age spectrum noticed in minutes while travelling through. Or cared about the message it sends.

    Grrr.....



    Its deliberate because they're trying to write off sex as something that even exists.

    "Gender identity" covers "sex" in his eyes so that's the end of the story.
    Yup, stonewall have redefined homosexuality as same gender attraction as opposed to same sex. Lesbians need to embrace ‘girldick’ or be labelled ‘TERFS’ if they don’t with all that entails.
    Not sure I understand all of that..are you saying the Stonewall position is that have to accept a man transitioning to a waman who still has their tackle.?
    That is indeed the position of some trans radicals (not sure about Stonewall). A lesbian who refuses to have sex with an untransitioned trans man in possession of male genitals is not expressing a sexual preference for women, she is being "transphobic"

    It is pure madness

    Perhaps the trans community will join forces with the incels to demand the right to have sex with persons of their own choosing, regardless of the wishes of the targets of their 'affection'. Those claiming rape are just bigots.
    That is exactly what some of the nuttier trans loons are indeed arguing.

    It is a rape mentality. It is - I know some of you may not like what I am going to say next - a male mentality. Not that all males think like this. Far from it. But it is overwhelmingly only men who think like this.

    And it is why changing language does not change underlying reality. When men attack gay women for not having sex with them, even though they claim to be "women", they are no different in reality from the men of my youth who called women who would not sleep with them lesbians.

    Or told lesbians that a good fuck would change their minds about being lesbian.

    And bizarrely the CEO of Stonewall is repeating and implicitly endorsing this view, though this time she substitutes the phrase "societal pressures" for "a good fuck".
    The Virginia school loo/trans/rape story was quite eye opening
    Yeah, except the guy would did the sexual assault wasn't trans.
    He was wearing a skirt
    And? He apparently likes wearing skirts.

    That doesn't make him trans. That doesn't even make him gender fluid.


  • Roger said:

    kle4 said:

    I'm a little surprised on the report Labour are calling for an investigation specifically into Cox. It seems just an issue of him being an extreme example of how much you can earn doing another job as an MP than raking in money because you are an MP. Surely investigation should be for where there is a suggestion of wrongdoing (which the BBC report says there is not in his case), and the issue of having second jobs at all, and how much time you spend on them, is a matter for debate and discussion?


    Looks as if Labour are overplaying their hand


    https://twitter.com/GuidoFawkes/status/1458103687235125248?t=XDy4f163ezzoBYHNTLUmFA&s=19
    and while you and three others were reading Guido 2,000,000 were listening to this. (Its very good!)

    https://www.thelondoneconomic.com/news/osmosis-of-corruption-the-viral-james-obrien-video-that-has-racked-up-over-2-million-views-300298/
    Deflection from a story is a sad attempt to mask a genuine rebuke to Labour unless you are saying it is made up
    Do you think this story will dominate the front pages and news cycle like the Paterson story did?
    Of course not but why are so many upset by it being aired
    Nobody is upset at it, we're amused at your bigging up of it, you appear to be engaging in deflection.
  • TOPPING said:

    Farooq said:

    Farooq said:

    Farooq said:

    Stocky said:

    Farooq said:

    Farooq said:
    But with theirs on the way up and ours on the way down.

    Thank goodness we resisted the siren call to use masks and other NPIs etc during the summer and autumn.
    Theirs have been rising and ours have been falling is fairer. If you want to make predictions about where case numbers are going, that's your business. I won't follow you there.
    All you need to remember is that the high number of Covid cases and deaths in the UK is completely immaterial; it's the end of lockdown that counts. But in countries other than the UK, high numbers of cases and deaths are a sign of doom and massive governmental incompetence. That's right, isn't it?
    Re: other countries, high numbers of cases and deaths may be an indication of bad decision-making if accompanied by more draconian measures than us. Worst of both worlds sort of thing.
    In terms of Denmark v the UK, here's the stringency index over time, that shows that most of the time, the UK has had more stringent restrictions than Denmark: https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/covid-stringency-index?tab=chart&country=GBR~DNK
    The UK has no legal restrictions currently so why are they rating the UK as a 41.2 at the moment?

    Though I see its based upon the 'strictest sub-region' so that would include any restrictions by Holyrood etc as "UK".
    I was wrong to use the word restrictions. It's wider than just prohibitions.
    Additional: I've been digging into the data a little and it's troubling. The current value for face coverings in England is listed as "2". In Scotland it's "3". The levels are:
    0- No policy
    1- Recommended
    2- Required in some specified shared/public spaces outside the home with other people present, or some situations when social distancing not possible
    3- Required in all shared/public spaces outside the home with other people present or all situations when social distancing not possible

    This seems wrong, to me. As I understand it, the mask level should be at most "1" for England.

    I withdraw any point I have made about the stringency index until and unless I find out that this is my mistake and not theirs.
    Face masks are required on public transport in England so that would fit with being a 2.

    I opened your document but couldn't work out where to go for the "executive summary".

    Seems a lot in there.
    No they're not.

    Face masks are not legally required in public transport in England. TFL don't make the law.

    I believe they are legally required in care homes and some other healthcare settings though.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,653

    kle4 said:

    kinabalu said:

    kle4 said:

    kinabalu said:

    isam said:

    kinabalu said:

    TOPPING said:



    kinabalu said:

    Farooq said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    I've just been Googling "Sadiq Khan" to see what he is actually *doing*

    Not much. But a few things. eg He is doing THIS

    "Sadiq Khan has unveiled £25,000 grants to help people change street names as part of a diversity campaign launched following Black Lives Matter protests.

    "The Mayor of London has announced a £1 million fund that will be shared out among community groups, including those wishing to campaign to alter potentially offensive road names.

    "Grants of up to £25,000 will support groups through all aspects of the process of changing street names, which could include enlisting consultants and compensating residents.

    "The Untold Stories fund is part of the Commission for Diversity in the Public Realm, which was established following Black Lives Matter protests to diversify artwork and statuary that came under scrutiny for commemorating figures linked to empire and slavery."

    Utterly pointless Woke bullshit, which also wastes money. Brilliant

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2021/10/21/black-boy-lane-diversity-drive-sadiq-khan-plans-25000-grants/

    And THIS:

    "London mayor Sadiq Khan has urged the government to make face coverings mandatory on public transport as the UK continues to average more than 40,000 confirmed coronavirus cases a day for over a week."

    He wants us all to mask up again. That's an inspired and innovative policy. Who saw that coming?

    https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/sadiq-khan-mandatory-face-masks-public-transport-b1947540.html

    He's just extended the ULEZ zone which at a stroke has stopped me gadding around in my big polluting Merc. Whilst I'm not his greatest fan, eg he comes over to me as a careerist, and as I say he's making me walk everywhere, it has to be noted that much of the more visceral dislike of him is driven by him being Muslim. Not you, of course, but it's undeniably in the mix. Which is disappointing to see.
    It is deniably in the mix.
    He’s just crap.

    The only person to bring up his Muslim-ness was the equally crap Zac Goldsmith.
    So iyo there are hardly any people whose dislike of him is driven by anti-Muslim prejudice? I think that's an absurdly optimistic notion. Please note I'm not in any way implying that any particular person who thinks he's rubbish is being influenced by this. It's not a smear against anybody to point out that prejudice is in the mix. Neither is it to say he isn't rubbish or some 'lefty comfort blanket' against something or other. It's just a factual comment.
    implying that any particular person who thinks he's rubbish is being influenced by this
    But if you're thinking it, I am too. I doubt we'd be the only ones.
    Ah but hang on. Take gardenwalker for eg, I am totally NOT thinking this. I must have read 1000 of his posts and not a trace of anti-muslim prejudice. Not even thinking it about leon where there has been fruitiness sometimes. Tbh it's more about where you see the quite wild-eyed stuff said about him. I think he's testified about it. He gets a lot. There, you have racism rearing its head, no question. What you also get is the slightly brighter and cagey type of racist who keeps a grip on what they say and stays carefully deniable. You know the type.
    Ah yes. The people you "just know" are racist, but haven't actually done anything racist.

    Bit like the witches. If I wasn't out, 24/7, burning them...
    LOL this is the bad old kini.

    As I noted several months ago in a post when he was flinging around accusations of racism (amended for his posts today):

    "What you have to remember is that because @kinabalu for some unknown reason is very insecure he is invested in belittling views of nationality and what it means to be British and how one should react to people who are not white working class.

    He does this because as a white working class lad made good (very good) and now moved away from his roots, he is confused about what he is supposed to think about these things. He feels he should condemn anyone who even mentions nationality or religion but has no views himself on them. He literally has no idea how to approach the idea of criticising someone who is not an "easy" target (ie WWC).

    And hence when he bumps into people, like @Leon for example, someone he believes he is far more successful and intelligent than, but someone who is far more confident in their own opinions on such to him delicate and taboo subjects, he has literally no answer."

    Holds as true today as it always has done.
    Nice couch you have, Topping. Trouble is, I almost nodded off.

    Same time next week?
    Damn unsolicited diagnoses! He’ll be devising a scoring system to rank people next
    Ah, I sense a reference to my simple yet rather sophisticated 'Class Indicator' test that you, almost alone on here, refused to take. And I could never understand why. Still, no point revisiting. The past is another country.
    I must have missed it or forgotten it - what was the class indicator test?
    But you did it! You scored 14 if I recall. Which was about what you expected.
    Then I apologise for my forgetfulness.
    Any class test that doesn't have me down as working class is deeply flawed.
    And any that does is just plain wrong.

    Deeply flawed is as good as it gets when it comes to class tests.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,246
    kle4 said:

    We did it in Turkey didn't we?
    {Sopranos Theme Tune}

    Vlad "Mad Dog" - "So, if you were to pay my friend a suitable vig, nothing unreasonable, then the problems with immigrants could go away."
  • Yorkshire announce head coach Andrew Gale suspended "pending a disciplinary hearing" re past tweet and also state director of cricket Martyn Moxon is currently absent from work due to stress related illness. Confirmation the report into racism shared with DCMS

    https://twitter.com/Cricket_Ali/status/1458129699805306885
  • OmniumOmnium Posts: 10,758

    TOPPING said:

    Farooq said:

    Farooq said:

    Farooq said:

    Stocky said:

    Farooq said:

    Farooq said:
    But with theirs on the way up and ours on the way down.

    Thank goodness we resisted the siren call to use masks and other NPIs etc during the summer and autumn.
    Theirs have been rising and ours have been falling is fairer. If you want to make predictions about where case numbers are going, that's your business. I won't follow you there.
    All you need to remember is that the high number of Covid cases and deaths in the UK is completely immaterial; it's the end of lockdown that counts. But in countries other than the UK, high numbers of cases and deaths are a sign of doom and massive governmental incompetence. That's right, isn't it?
    Re: other countries, high numbers of cases and deaths may be an indication of bad decision-making if accompanied by more draconian measures than us. Worst of both worlds sort of thing.
    In terms of Denmark v the UK, here's the stringency index over time, that shows that most of the time, the UK has had more stringent restrictions than Denmark: https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/covid-stringency-index?tab=chart&country=GBR~DNK
    The UK has no legal restrictions currently so why are they rating the UK as a 41.2 at the moment?

    Though I see its based upon the 'strictest sub-region' so that would include any restrictions by Holyrood etc as "UK".
    I was wrong to use the word restrictions. It's wider than just prohibitions.
    Additional: I've been digging into the data a little and it's troubling. The current value for face coverings in England is listed as "2". In Scotland it's "3". The levels are:
    0- No policy
    1- Recommended
    2- Required in some specified shared/public spaces outside the home with other people present, or some situations when social distancing not possible
    3- Required in all shared/public spaces outside the home with other people present or all situations when social distancing not possible

    This seems wrong, to me. As I understand it, the mask level should be at most "1" for England.

    I withdraw any point I have made about the stringency index until and unless I find out that this is my mistake and not theirs.
    Face masks are required on public transport in England so that would fit with being a 2.

    I opened your document but couldn't work out where to go for the "executive summary".

    Seems a lot in there.
    No they're not.

    Face masks are not legally required in public transport in England. TFL don't make the law.

    I believe they are legally required in care homes and some other healthcare settings though.
    They should be compulsory on the tube and enforced by the law rather than tfl's ire (no fault of theirs)
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 41,953
    edited November 2021
    Leon said:

    Distressing video of a child, apparently, almost dying on that border


    https://twitter.com/Mzhda_112/status/1458125876370059269?s=20


    God. WTF does Europe do? It will be minus 3 there tonight (or lower, in the middle of a forest). Minus 7 next Monday


    https://www.bbc.co.uk/weather/776069

    Can't your latest man crush, Vlad, step in?

    Edit: I see there has been an intervention.
  • Roger said:

    kle4 said:

    I'm a little surprised on the report Labour are calling for an investigation specifically into Cox. It seems just an issue of him being an extreme example of how much you can earn doing another job as an MP than raking in money because you are an MP. Surely investigation should be for where there is a suggestion of wrongdoing (which the BBC report says there is not in his case), and the issue of having second jobs at all, and how much time you spend on them, is a matter for debate and discussion?


    Looks as if Labour are overplaying their hand


    https://twitter.com/GuidoFawkes/status/1458103687235125248?t=XDy4f163ezzoBYHNTLUmFA&s=19
    and while you and three others were reading Guido 2,000,000 were listening to this. (Its very good!)

    https://www.thelondoneconomic.com/news/osmosis-of-corruption-the-viral-james-obrien-video-that-has-racked-up-over-2-million-views-300298/
    Deflection from a story is a sad attempt to mask a genuine rebuke to Labour unless you are saying it is made up
    Surely Big_G the deflection was yours:

    You flagged up 'a rebuke to Labour's complaints about Patel' in response to their 'request for an investigation over Cox'. How have Labour 'over-played their hand' in requesting that investigation?
    Labour are in danger of overplaying their hand over Cox, as he hasn't done anything wrong and while the sums are much greater Starmer claimed second job fees of £113,975 since becoming an MP in 2015
  • Omnium said:

    TOPPING said:

    Farooq said:

    Farooq said:

    Farooq said:

    Stocky said:

    Farooq said:

    Farooq said:
    But with theirs on the way up and ours on the way down.

    Thank goodness we resisted the siren call to use masks and other NPIs etc during the summer and autumn.
    Theirs have been rising and ours have been falling is fairer. If you want to make predictions about where case numbers are going, that's your business. I won't follow you there.
    All you need to remember is that the high number of Covid cases and deaths in the UK is completely immaterial; it's the end of lockdown that counts. But in countries other than the UK, high numbers of cases and deaths are a sign of doom and massive governmental incompetence. That's right, isn't it?
    Re: other countries, high numbers of cases and deaths may be an indication of bad decision-making if accompanied by more draconian measures than us. Worst of both worlds sort of thing.
    In terms of Denmark v the UK, here's the stringency index over time, that shows that most of the time, the UK has had more stringent restrictions than Denmark: https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/covid-stringency-index?tab=chart&country=GBR~DNK
    The UK has no legal restrictions currently so why are they rating the UK as a 41.2 at the moment?

    Though I see its based upon the 'strictest sub-region' so that would include any restrictions by Holyrood etc as "UK".
    I was wrong to use the word restrictions. It's wider than just prohibitions.
    Additional: I've been digging into the data a little and it's troubling. The current value for face coverings in England is listed as "2". In Scotland it's "3". The levels are:
    0- No policy
    1- Recommended
    2- Required in some specified shared/public spaces outside the home with other people present, or some situations when social distancing not possible
    3- Required in all shared/public spaces outside the home with other people present or all situations when social distancing not possible

    This seems wrong, to me. As I understand it, the mask level should be at most "1" for England.

    I withdraw any point I have made about the stringency index until and unless I find out that this is my mistake and not theirs.
    Face masks are required on public transport in England so that would fit with being a 2.

    I opened your document but couldn't work out where to go for the "executive summary".

    Seems a lot in there.
    No they're not.

    Face masks are not legally required in public transport in England. TFL don't make the law.

    I believe they are legally required in care homes and some other healthcare settings though.
    They should be compulsory on the tube and enforced by the law rather than tfl's ire (no fault of theirs)
    Why?

    No they shouldn't. Just because TFL have overreached doesn't mean it should be the law.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,616
    Does he think Macron should be prosecuted?

    https://www.cnbc.com/2021/11/09/covid-vaccines-pfizer-ceo-says-people-who-spread-misinformation-on-shots-are-criminals.html

    Pfizer CEO says people who spread misinformation on Covid vaccines are ‘criminals’
  • Does he think Macron should be prosecuted?

    https://www.cnbc.com/2021/11/09/covid-vaccines-pfizer-ceo-says-people-who-spread-misinformation-on-shots-are-criminals.html

    Pfizer CEO says people who spread misinformation on Covid vaccines are ‘criminals’

    He should, crimes against humanity.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,261
    Alistair said:

    Leon said:

    Alistair said:

    Leon said:

    Cyclefree said:

    TimT said:

    Leon said:

    Taz said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Off topic, Daughter and I were out in London last night. Restaurant and theatre packed. A most enjoyable evening and a much-needed break for Daughter. I am worried about the immense strain she is under.

    Anyway, on our way into town (separately from some other appointments) we both noticed one thing which annoyed us and will doubtless be dismissed by many on here as hyper-sensitivity. But here goes anyway.

    There is a long corridor on the interchange between the Piccadilly and Jubilee lines. On it there are various Pride posters with stories and photos from individuals. All very lovely. No objection to this at all.

    There were 29 posters. Only 7 of them were women and one of these was of a mother of a gay person. So only 6 gay women out of 29. 6 women. 22 men.

    Why so few women? Why so few gay women? Are their stories not worth telling?

    Daughter pointed out that whenever gay marriage is talked about or discussed it is very often accompanied by illustrations of gay men getting married. Not gay women. It annoyed her.

    Then on the Central line at Bond Street a big poster saying how London stands together against hate. Well, yes, who wouldn't be?

    The precise words used in the poster are these -

    "London stands together against hate directed at someone on our transport network because of race, religion, sexual orientation, disability or gender identity."

    All very lovely. But spot what's missing. "Sex" - a protected characteristic and probably one of the single biggest reasons for attacks on women and girls. The Mayor talks a good game about Violence against Women and Girls but he cannot bring himself to mention sex in this poster. He ignores the fact that it is a "protected characteristic" in law. He is happy to include characteristics which aren't. But something which is - and which is of great concern to women, especially in relation to the risks they face when travelling - is ignored.

    Why? Deliberate? Or just forgotten?

    These may seem like small matters. But this sort of unconscious overlooking of women, of the female experience is all too common, all too pervasive and, ironically, occurs at a time when diversity is trumpeted loudly by all sorts of people keen to promote their progressive credentials.

    I rather feel that the more people talk about diversity the less likely they are to listen to actual women or do anything practical to help them.

    One day we might have 29 posters with 22 of them of women, a few men and a token father. A 50/50 representation would be a start. And - imagine - those posters, those choices were all, I expect, signed off by lots of people in numerous meeting and none of those preparing and implementing this campaign noticed what two women at both ends of the age spectrum noticed in minutes while travelling through. Or cared about the message it sends.

    Grrr.....



    Its deliberate because they're trying to write off sex as something that even exists.

    "Gender identity" covers "sex" in his eyes so that's the end of the story.
    Yup, stonewall have redefined homosexuality as same gender attraction as opposed to same sex. Lesbians need to embrace ‘girldick’ or be labelled ‘TERFS’ if they don’t with all that entails.
    Not sure I understand all of that..are you saying the Stonewall position is that have to accept a man transitioning to a waman who still has their tackle.?
    That is indeed the position of some trans radicals (not sure about Stonewall). A lesbian who refuses to have sex with an untransitioned trans man in possession of male genitals is not expressing a sexual preference for women, she is being "transphobic"

    It is pure madness

    Perhaps the trans community will join forces with the incels to demand the right to have sex with persons of their own choosing, regardless of the wishes of the targets of their 'affection'. Those claiming rape are just bigots.
    That is exactly what some of the nuttier trans loons are indeed arguing.

    It is a rape mentality. It is - I know some of you may not like what I am going to say next - a male mentality. Not that all males think like this. Far from it. But it is overwhelmingly only men who think like this.

    And it is why changing language does not change underlying reality. When men attack gay women for not having sex with them, even though they claim to be "women", they are no different in reality from the men of my youth who called women who would not sleep with them lesbians.

    Or told lesbians that a good fuck would change their minds about being lesbian.

    And bizarrely the CEO of Stonewall is repeating and implicitly endorsing this view, though this time she substitutes the phrase "societal pressures" for "a good fuck".
    The Virginia school loo/trans/rape story was quite eye opening
    Yeah, except the guy would did the sexual assault wasn't trans.
    He was wearing a skirt
    And? He apparently likes wearing skirts.

    That doesn't make him trans. That doesn't even make him gender fluid.


    Except, he is genderfluid?



    "A sexual assault committed by a 'gender fluid' teen who was then transferred to another high school is traumatizing Loudoun County, Virginia."



    https://eu.usatoday.com/story/opinion/voices/2021/10/29/trans-bathroom-policy-sexual-assault/8568005002/

    He wears a skirt, he's bisexual, he is genderfluid, he uses the female toilets, does that make you trans? It certainly makes you transvestite, he is knowingly wearing female clothing; but the modern terminology of the trans issue is so confusing I sincerely admit I do not know if I am using exactly the right words
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830
    Alistair said:

    Leon said:

    Alistair said:

    Leon said:

    Cyclefree said:

    TimT said:

    Leon said:

    Taz said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Off topic, Daughter and I were out in London last night. Restaurant and theatre packed. A most enjoyable evening and a much-needed break for Daughter. I am worried about the immense strain she is under.

    Anyway, on our way into town (separately from some other appointments) we both noticed one thing which annoyed us and will doubtless be dismissed by many on here as hyper-sensitivity. But here goes anyway.

    There is a long corridor on the interchange between the Piccadilly and Jubilee lines. On it there are various Pride posters with stories and photos from individuals. All very lovely. No objection to this at all.

    There were 29 posters. Only 7 of them were women and one of these was of a mother of a gay person. So only 6 gay women out of 29. 6 women. 22 men.

    Why so few women? Why so few gay women? Are their stories not worth telling?

    Daughter pointed out that whenever gay marriage is talked about or discussed it is very often accompanied by illustrations of gay men getting married. Not gay women. It annoyed her.

    Then on the Central line at Bond Street a big poster saying how London stands together against hate. Well, yes, who wouldn't be?

    The precise words used in the poster are these -

    "London stands together against hate directed at someone on our transport network because of race, religion, sexual orientation, disability or gender identity."

    All very lovely. But spot what's missing. "Sex" - a protected characteristic and probably one of the single biggest reasons for attacks on women and girls. The Mayor talks a good game about Violence against Women and Girls but he cannot bring himself to mention sex in this poster. He ignores the fact that it is a "protected characteristic" in law. He is happy to include characteristics which aren't. But something which is - and which is of great concern to women, especially in relation to the risks they face when travelling - is ignored.

    Why? Deliberate? Or just forgotten?

    These may seem like small matters. But this sort of unconscious overlooking of women, of the female experience is all too common, all too pervasive and, ironically, occurs at a time when diversity is trumpeted loudly by all sorts of people keen to promote their progressive credentials.

    I rather feel that the more people talk about diversity the less likely they are to listen to actual women or do anything practical to help them.

    One day we might have 29 posters with 22 of them of women, a few men and a token father. A 50/50 representation would be a start. And - imagine - those posters, those choices were all, I expect, signed off by lots of people in numerous meeting and none of those preparing and implementing this campaign noticed what two women at both ends of the age spectrum noticed in minutes while travelling through. Or cared about the message it sends.

    Grrr.....



    Its deliberate because they're trying to write off sex as something that even exists.

    "Gender identity" covers "sex" in his eyes so that's the end of the story.
    Yup, stonewall have redefined homosexuality as same gender attraction as opposed to same sex. Lesbians need to embrace ‘girldick’ or be labelled ‘TERFS’ if they don’t with all that entails.
    Not sure I understand all of that..are you saying the Stonewall position is that have to accept a man transitioning to a waman who still has their tackle.?
    That is indeed the position of some trans radicals (not sure about Stonewall). A lesbian who refuses to have sex with an untransitioned trans man in possession of male genitals is not expressing a sexual preference for women, she is being "transphobic"

    It is pure madness

    Perhaps the trans community will join forces with the incels to demand the right to have sex with persons of their own choosing, regardless of the wishes of the targets of their 'affection'. Those claiming rape are just bigots.
    That is exactly what some of the nuttier trans loons are indeed arguing.

    It is a rape mentality. It is - I know some of you may not like what I am going to say next - a male mentality. Not that all males think like this. Far from it. But it is overwhelmingly only men who think like this.

    And it is why changing language does not change underlying reality. When men attack gay women for not having sex with them, even though they claim to be "women", they are no different in reality from the men of my youth who called women who would not sleep with them lesbians.

    Or told lesbians that a good fuck would change their minds about being lesbian.

    And bizarrely the CEO of Stonewall is repeating and implicitly endorsing this view, though this time she substitutes the phrase "societal pressures" for "a good fuck".
    The Virginia school loo/trans/rape story was quite eye opening
    Yeah, except the guy would did the sexual assault wasn't trans.
    He was wearing a skirt
    And? He apparently likes wearing skirts.

    That doesn't make him trans. That doesn't even make him gender fluid.
    Well, of course he was neither trans nor gender fluid, he forcibly buggered a girl. And he might have done it anyway, but it was greatly facilitated by pro trans wankerdom.

    Here's the heart of the NYT's case that it was nothing to do with trans rights

    "The boy was indeed wearing a skirt, but that skirt didn’t authorize him to use the girls’ bathroom. As Amanda Terkel reported in HuffPost, the school district’s trans-inclusive bathroom policies were approved only in August, more than two months after the assault."

    See any weaknesses there?
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,246

    Does he think Macron should be prosecuted?

    https://www.cnbc.com/2021/11/09/covid-vaccines-pfizer-ceo-says-people-who-spread-misinformation-on-shots-are-criminals.html

    Pfizer CEO says people who spread misinformation on Covid vaccines are ‘criminals’

    He's a French President, prosecution is pretty much mandatory.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,653

    Roger said:

    kle4 said:

    I'm a little surprised on the report Labour are calling for an investigation specifically into Cox. It seems just an issue of him being an extreme example of how much you can earn doing another job as an MP than raking in money because you are an MP. Surely investigation should be for where there is a suggestion of wrongdoing (which the BBC report says there is not in his case), and the issue of having second jobs at all, and how much time you spend on them, is a matter for debate and discussion?


    Looks as if Labour are overplaying their hand


    https://twitter.com/GuidoFawkes/status/1458103687235125248?t=XDy4f163ezzoBYHNTLUmFA&s=19
    and while you and three others were reading Guido 2,000,000 were listening to this. (Its very good!)

    https://www.thelondoneconomic.com/news/osmosis-of-corruption-the-viral-james-obrien-video-that-has-racked-up-over-2-million-views-300298/
    Deflection from a story is a sad attempt to mask a genuine rebuke to Labour unless you are saying it is made up
    Surely Big_G the deflection was yours:

    You flagged up 'a rebuke to Labour's complaints about Patel' in response to their 'request for an investigation over Cox'. How have Labour 'over-played their hand' in requesting that investigation?
    Labour are in danger of overplaying their hand over Cox, as he hasn't done anything wrong and while the sums are much greater Starmer claimed second job fees of £113,975 since becoming an MP in 2015
    Nobody is pretending that Labour are purer than pure on this but change has gotta happen, and it won't happen unless HMG are put under pressure.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,071

    kle4 said:

    kle4 said:

    I'm a little surprised on the report Labour are calling for an investigation specifically into Cox. It seems just an issue of him being an extreme example of how much you can earn doing another job as an MP than raking in money because you are an MP. Surely investigation should be for where there is a suggestion of wrongdoing (which the BBC report says there is not in his case), and the issue of having second jobs at all, and how much time you spend on them, is a matter for debate and discussion?


    Looks as if Labour are overplaying their hand


    https://twitter.com/GuidoFawkes/status/1458103687235125248?t=XDy4f163ezzoBYHNTLUmFA&s=19
    That is a funny letter. Politely worded rebukes can be hilarious, its why some legal judgements can be pretty entertaining.
    My most sarcastic response to a complaint from a random member of the public (not even a client or customer) was along the lines of

    1) You have no standing

    and

    2) There's so much wrong with your original 'complaint' that I don't know where to even begin but do not consider this response to be exhaustive, I shall only address the major points as a complete reply will lead to the complete deforestation of the Amazon rainforest due to the paper required to address every incomplete point you have raised.
    A man in your exalted position wrote the return letter yourself? That must have been quite the complaint. :)
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830
    edited November 2021

    Roger said:

    kle4 said:

    I'm a little surprised on the report Labour are calling for an investigation specifically into Cox. It seems just an issue of him being an extreme example of how much you can earn doing another job as an MP than raking in money because you are an MP. Surely investigation should be for where there is a suggestion of wrongdoing (which the BBC report says there is not in his case), and the issue of having second jobs at all, and how much time you spend on them, is a matter for debate and discussion?


    Looks as if Labour are overplaying their hand


    https://twitter.com/GuidoFawkes/status/1458103687235125248?t=XDy4f163ezzoBYHNTLUmFA&s=19
    and while you and three others were reading Guido 2,000,000 were listening to this. (Its very good!)

    https://www.thelondoneconomic.com/news/osmosis-of-corruption-the-viral-james-obrien-video-that-has-racked-up-over-2-million-views-300298/
    Deflection from a story is a sad attempt to mask a genuine rebuke to Labour unless you are saying it is made up
    Surely Big_G the deflection was yours:

    You flagged up 'a rebuke to Labour's complaints about Patel' in response to their 'request for an investigation over Cox'. How have Labour 'over-played their hand' in requesting that investigation?
    Labour are in danger of overplaying their hand over Cox, as he hasn't done anything wrong and while the sums are much greater Starmer claimed second job fees of £113,975 since becoming an MP in 2015
    Sir Keir and Sir Geoffrey were two fine men
    They went to court when the clock struck ten

    ETA and look at the sacrifice Cox made by being Attorney General and hence not practising for 2 years.

    I imagine he'll be happy to stand down at next GE anyway. he's had his 15 minutes of fame and got his K. He seems an ill-chosen target all round.
  • Roger said:

    kle4 said:

    I'm a little surprised on the report Labour are calling for an investigation specifically into Cox. It seems just an issue of him being an extreme example of how much you can earn doing another job as an MP than raking in money because you are an MP. Surely investigation should be for where there is a suggestion of wrongdoing (which the BBC report says there is not in his case), and the issue of having second jobs at all, and how much time you spend on them, is a matter for debate and discussion?


    Looks as if Labour are overplaying their hand


    https://twitter.com/GuidoFawkes/status/1458103687235125248?t=XDy4f163ezzoBYHNTLUmFA&s=19
    and while you and three others were reading Guido 2,000,000 were listening to this. (Its very good!)

    https://www.thelondoneconomic.com/news/osmosis-of-corruption-the-viral-james-obrien-video-that-has-racked-up-over-2-million-views-300298/
    Deflection from a story is a sad attempt to mask a genuine rebuke to Labour unless you are saying it is made up
    Surely Big_G the deflection was yours:

    You flagged up 'a rebuke to Labour's complaints about Patel' in response to their 'request for an investigation over Cox'. How have Labour 'over-played their hand' in requesting that investigation?
    Labour are in danger of overplaying their hand over Cox, as he hasn't done anything wrong and while the sums are much greater Starmer claimed second job fees of £113,975 since becoming an MP in 2015
    Nobody is pretending that Labour are purer than pure on this but change has gotta happen, and it won't happen unless HMG are put under pressure.
    We agree 100% on that, and they have put forward the request made by Chris Bryant (an exceptional mp on this) to vote on Paterson next week

    It needs cool heads to come together to address the issues on a non party political bases as soon as possible
  • OmniumOmnium Posts: 10,758

    Omnium said:

    TOPPING said:

    Farooq said:

    Farooq said:

    Farooq said:

    Stocky said:

    Farooq said:

    Farooq said:
    But with theirs on the way up and ours on the way down.

    Thank goodness we resisted the siren call to use masks and other NPIs etc during the summer and autumn.
    Theirs have been rising and ours have been falling is fairer. If you want to make predictions about where case numbers are going, that's your business. I won't follow you there.
    All you need to remember is that the high number of Covid cases and deaths in the UK is completely immaterial; it's the end of lockdown that counts. But in countries other than the UK, high numbers of cases and deaths are a sign of doom and massive governmental incompetence. That's right, isn't it?
    Re: other countries, high numbers of cases and deaths may be an indication of bad decision-making if accompanied by more draconian measures than us. Worst of both worlds sort of thing.
    In terms of Denmark v the UK, here's the stringency index over time, that shows that most of the time, the UK has had more stringent restrictions than Denmark: https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/covid-stringency-index?tab=chart&country=GBR~DNK
    The UK has no legal restrictions currently so why are they rating the UK as a 41.2 at the moment?

    Though I see its based upon the 'strictest sub-region' so that would include any restrictions by Holyrood etc as "UK".
    I was wrong to use the word restrictions. It's wider than just prohibitions.
    Additional: I've been digging into the data a little and it's troubling. The current value for face coverings in England is listed as "2". In Scotland it's "3". The levels are:
    0- No policy
    1- Recommended
    2- Required in some specified shared/public spaces outside the home with other people present, or some situations when social distancing not possible
    3- Required in all shared/public spaces outside the home with other people present or all situations when social distancing not possible

    This seems wrong, to me. As I understand it, the mask level should be at most "1" for England.

    I withdraw any point I have made about the stringency index until and unless I find out that this is my mistake and not theirs.
    Face masks are required on public transport in England so that would fit with being a 2.

    I opened your document but couldn't work out where to go for the "executive summary".

    Seems a lot in there.
    No they're not.

    Face masks are not legally required in public transport in England. TFL don't make the law.

    I believe they are legally required in care homes and some other healthcare settings though.
    They should be compulsory on the tube and enforced by the law rather than tfl's ire (no fault of theirs)
    Why?

    No they shouldn't. Just because TFL have overreached doesn't mean it should be the law.
    Why? - The tube is a special case of ridiculously close contact in an unventilated space.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,071

    Does he think Macron should be prosecuted?

    https://www.cnbc.com/2021/11/09/covid-vaccines-pfizer-ceo-says-people-who-spread-misinformation-on-shots-are-criminals.html

    Pfizer CEO says people who spread misinformation on Covid vaccines are ‘criminals’

    He's a French President, prosecution is pretty much mandatory.
    Not sure if that's criticism or envy in your post.
  • Roger said:

    kle4 said:

    I'm a little surprised on the report Labour are calling for an investigation specifically into Cox. It seems just an issue of him being an extreme example of how much you can earn doing another job as an MP than raking in money because you are an MP. Surely investigation should be for where there is a suggestion of wrongdoing (which the BBC report says there is not in his case), and the issue of having second jobs at all, and how much time you spend on them, is a matter for debate and discussion?


    Looks as if Labour are overplaying their hand


    https://twitter.com/GuidoFawkes/status/1458103687235125248?t=XDy4f163ezzoBYHNTLUmFA&s=19
    and while you and three others were reading Guido 2,000,000 were listening to this. (Its very good!)

    https://www.thelondoneconomic.com/news/osmosis-of-corruption-the-viral-james-obrien-video-that-has-racked-up-over-2-million-views-300298/
    Deflection from a story is a sad attempt to mask a genuine rebuke to Labour unless you are saying it is made up
    Surely Big_G the deflection was yours:

    You flagged up 'a rebuke to Labour's complaints about Patel' in response to their 'request for an investigation over Cox'. How have Labour 'over-played their hand' in requesting that investigation?
    Labour are in danger of overplaying their hand over Cox, as he hasn't done anything wrong and while the sums are much greater Starmer claimed second job fees of £113,975 since becoming an MP in 2015
    Nobody is pretending that Labour are purer than pure on this but change has gotta happen, and it won't happen unless HMG are put under pressure.
    Who do you think said this last week?

    I agree, especially with your last paragraph, but Paterson has resigned and this morning the news has moved onto Yorkshire CC and back to COP26
  • CookieCookie Posts: 13,783

    Roger said:

    kle4 said:

    I'm a little surprised on the report Labour are calling for an investigation specifically into Cox. It seems just an issue of him being an extreme example of how much you can earn doing another job as an MP than raking in money because you are an MP. Surely investigation should be for where there is a suggestion of wrongdoing (which the BBC report says there is not in his case), and the issue of having second jobs at all, and how much time you spend on them, is a matter for debate and discussion?


    Looks as if Labour are overplaying their hand


    https://twitter.com/GuidoFawkes/status/1458103687235125248?t=XDy4f163ezzoBYHNTLUmFA&s=19
    and while you and three others were reading Guido 2,000,000 were listening to this. (Its very good!)

    https://www.thelondoneconomic.com/news/osmosis-of-corruption-the-viral-james-obrien-video-that-has-racked-up-over-2-million-views-300298/
    Deflection from a story is a sad attempt to mask a genuine rebuke to Labour unless you are saying it is made up
    Also, posting links to the london economic is only one step away from posting links to the Canary.
  • Omnium said:

    Omnium said:

    TOPPING said:

    Farooq said:

    Farooq said:

    Farooq said:

    Stocky said:

    Farooq said:

    Farooq said:
    But with theirs on the way up and ours on the way down.

    Thank goodness we resisted the siren call to use masks and other NPIs etc during the summer and autumn.
    Theirs have been rising and ours have been falling is fairer. If you want to make predictions about where case numbers are going, that's your business. I won't follow you there.
    All you need to remember is that the high number of Covid cases and deaths in the UK is completely immaterial; it's the end of lockdown that counts. But in countries other than the UK, high numbers of cases and deaths are a sign of doom and massive governmental incompetence. That's right, isn't it?
    Re: other countries, high numbers of cases and deaths may be an indication of bad decision-making if accompanied by more draconian measures than us. Worst of both worlds sort of thing.
    In terms of Denmark v the UK, here's the stringency index over time, that shows that most of the time, the UK has had more stringent restrictions than Denmark: https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/covid-stringency-index?tab=chart&country=GBR~DNK
    The UK has no legal restrictions currently so why are they rating the UK as a 41.2 at the moment?

    Though I see its based upon the 'strictest sub-region' so that would include any restrictions by Holyrood etc as "UK".
    I was wrong to use the word restrictions. It's wider than just prohibitions.
    Additional: I've been digging into the data a little and it's troubling. The current value for face coverings in England is listed as "2". In Scotland it's "3". The levels are:
    0- No policy
    1- Recommended
    2- Required in some specified shared/public spaces outside the home with other people present, or some situations when social distancing not possible
    3- Required in all shared/public spaces outside the home with other people present or all situations when social distancing not possible

    This seems wrong, to me. As I understand it, the mask level should be at most "1" for England.

    I withdraw any point I have made about the stringency index until and unless I find out that this is my mistake and not theirs.
    Face masks are required on public transport in England so that would fit with being a 2.

    I opened your document but couldn't work out where to go for the "executive summary".

    Seems a lot in there.
    No they're not.

    Face masks are not legally required in public transport in England. TFL don't make the law.

    I believe they are legally required in care homes and some other healthcare settings though.
    They should be compulsory on the tube and enforced by the law rather than tfl's ire (no fault of theirs)
    Why?

    No they shouldn't. Just because TFL have overreached doesn't mean it should be the law.
    Why? - The tube is a special case of ridiculously close contact in an unventilated space.
    So what?

    If people choose to wear a mask then, that's their choice. If they don't, ditto. That's the law as it is and as it should be.

    The guidance to wear masks should be dropped.
  • squareroot2squareroot2 Posts: 6,723

    Roger said:

    kle4 said:

    I'm a little surprised on the report Labour are calling for an investigation specifically into Cox. It seems just an issue of him being an extreme example of how much you can earn doing another job as an MP than raking in money because you are an MP. Surely investigation should be for where there is a suggestion of wrongdoing (which the BBC report says there is not in his case), and the issue of having second jobs at all, and how much time you spend on them, is a matter for debate and discussion?


    Looks as if Labour are overplaying their hand


    https://twitter.com/GuidoFawkes/status/1458103687235125248?t=XDy4f163ezzoBYHNTLUmFA&s=19
    and while you and three others were reading Guido 2,000,000 were listening to this. (Its very good!)

    https://www.thelondoneconomic.com/news/osmosis-of-corruption-the-viral-james-obrien-video-that-has-racked-up-over-2-million-views-300298/
    Deflection from a story is a sad attempt to mask a genuine rebuke to Labour unless you are saying it is made up
    Do you think this story will dominate the front pages and news cycle like the Paterson story did?
    Why wouid anyone listen to James O'brien.ever,?
  • kle4 said:

    kle4 said:

    kle4 said:

    I'm a little surprised on the report Labour are calling for an investigation specifically into Cox. It seems just an issue of him being an extreme example of how much you can earn doing another job as an MP than raking in money because you are an MP. Surely investigation should be for where there is a suggestion of wrongdoing (which the BBC report says there is not in his case), and the issue of having second jobs at all, and how much time you spend on them, is a matter for debate and discussion?


    Looks as if Labour are overplaying their hand


    https://twitter.com/GuidoFawkes/status/1458103687235125248?t=XDy4f163ezzoBYHNTLUmFA&s=19
    That is a funny letter. Politely worded rebukes can be hilarious, its why some legal judgements can be pretty entertaining.
    My most sarcastic response to a complaint from a random member of the public (not even a client or customer) was along the lines of

    1) You have no standing

    and

    2) There's so much wrong with your original 'complaint' that I don't know where to even begin but do not consider this response to be exhaustive, I shall only address the major points as a complete reply will lead to the complete deforestation of the Amazon rainforest due to the paper required to address every incomplete point you have raised.
    A man in your exalted position wrote the return letter yourself? That must have been quite the complaint. :)
    They threatened to go to the FCA, police, and SECC, it became my problem.
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    Leon said:

    Alistair said:

    Leon said:

    Alistair said:

    Leon said:

    Cyclefree said:

    TimT said:

    Leon said:

    Taz said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Off topic, Daughter and I were out in London last night. Restaurant and theatre packed. A most enjoyable evening and a much-needed break for Daughter. I am worried about the immense strain she is under.

    Anyway, on our way into town (separately from some other appointments) we both noticed one thing which annoyed us and will doubtless be dismissed by many on here as hyper-sensitivity. But here goes anyway.

    There is a long corridor on the interchange between the Piccadilly and Jubilee lines. On it there are various Pride posters with stories and photos from individuals. All very lovely. No objection to this at all.

    There were 29 posters. Only 7 of them were women and one of these was of a mother of a gay person. So only 6 gay women out of 29. 6 women. 22 men.

    Why so few women? Why so few gay women? Are their stories not worth telling?

    Daughter pointed out that whenever gay marriage is talked about or discussed it is very often accompanied by illustrations of gay men getting married. Not gay women. It annoyed her.

    Then on the Central line at Bond Street a big poster saying how London stands together against hate. Well, yes, who wouldn't be?

    The precise words used in the poster are these -

    "London stands together against hate directed at someone on our transport network because of race, religion, sexual orientation, disability or gender identity."

    All very lovely. But spot what's missing. "Sex" - a protected characteristic and probably one of the single biggest reasons for attacks on women and girls. The Mayor talks a good game about Violence against Women and Girls but he cannot bring himself to mention sex in this poster. He ignores the fact that it is a "protected characteristic" in law. He is happy to include characteristics which aren't. But something which is - and which is of great concern to women, especially in relation to the risks they face when travelling - is ignored.

    Why? Deliberate? Or just forgotten?

    These may seem like small matters. But this sort of unconscious overlooking of women, of the female experience is all too common, all too pervasive and, ironically, occurs at a time when diversity is trumpeted loudly by all sorts of people keen to promote their progressive credentials.

    I rather feel that the more people talk about diversity the less likely they are to listen to actual women or do anything practical to help them.

    One day we might have 29 posters with 22 of them of women, a few men and a token father. A 50/50 representation would be a start. And - imagine - those posters, those choices were all, I expect, signed off by lots of people in numerous meeting and none of those preparing and implementing this campaign noticed what two women at both ends of the age spectrum noticed in minutes while travelling through. Or cared about the message it sends.

    Grrr.....



    Its deliberate because they're trying to write off sex as something that even exists.

    "Gender identity" covers "sex" in his eyes so that's the end of the story.
    Yup, stonewall have redefined homosexuality as same gender attraction as opposed to same sex. Lesbians need to embrace ‘girldick’ or be labelled ‘TERFS’ if they don’t with all that entails.
    Not sure I understand all of that..are you saying the Stonewall position is that have to accept a man transitioning to a waman who still has their tackle.?
    That is indeed the position of some trans radicals (not sure about Stonewall). A lesbian who refuses to have sex with an untransitioned trans man in possession of male genitals is not expressing a sexual preference for women, she is being "transphobic"

    It is pure madness

    Perhaps the trans community will join forces with the incels to demand the right to have sex with persons of their own choosing, regardless of the wishes of the targets of their 'affection'. Those claiming rape are just bigots.
    That is exactly what some of the nuttier trans loons are indeed arguing.

    It is a rape mentality. It is - I know some of you may not like what I am going to say next - a male mentality. Not that all males think like this. Far from it. But it is overwhelmingly only men who think like this.

    And it is why changing language does not change underlying reality. When men attack gay women for not having sex with them, even though they claim to be "women", they are no different in reality from the men of my youth who called women who would not sleep with them lesbians.

    Or told lesbians that a good fuck would change their minds about being lesbian.

    And bizarrely the CEO of Stonewall is repeating and implicitly endorsing this view, though this time she substitutes the phrase "societal pressures" for "a good fuck".
    The Virginia school loo/trans/rape story was quite eye opening
    Yeah, except the guy would did the sexual assault wasn't trans.
    He was wearing a skirt
    And? He apparently likes wearing skirts.

    That doesn't make him trans. That doesn't even make him gender fluid.


    Except, he is genderfluid?



    "A sexual assault committed by a 'gender fluid' teen who was then transferred to another high school is traumatizing Loudoun County, Virginia."



    https://eu.usatoday.com/story/opinion/voices/2021/10/29/trans-bathroom-policy-sexual-assault/8568005002/

    He wears a skirt, he's bisexual, he is genderfluid, he uses the female toilets, does that make you trans? It certainly makes you transvestite, he is knowingly wearing female clothing; but the modern terminology of the trans issue is so confusing I sincerely admit I do not know if I am using exactly the right words
    The only person who has called him gender fluid is the first victim's father. Its why it keeps appearing in quotes in news stories.

    Ay the time of the first assault, even if he was trans and was indentfying as a female, he wasn't allowed in the girls toilets anyways. So trying to make this about trans women's access to female toilets is a massive non starter.
  • JBriskin3JBriskin3 Posts: 1,254
    I'm a male but I'm with the TERFs on this one.

    My solution would be 100pc unisex toilets - I'm always suspious that females have an easier time sniffing blow in the pub toilets.

    Equality For All.
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830

    Roger said:

    kle4 said:

    I'm a little surprised on the report Labour are calling for an investigation specifically into Cox. It seems just an issue of him being an extreme example of how much you can earn doing another job as an MP than raking in money because you are an MP. Surely investigation should be for where there is a suggestion of wrongdoing (which the BBC report says there is not in his case), and the issue of having second jobs at all, and how much time you spend on them, is a matter for debate and discussion?


    Looks as if Labour are overplaying their hand


    https://twitter.com/GuidoFawkes/status/1458103687235125248?t=XDy4f163ezzoBYHNTLUmFA&s=19
    and while you and three others were reading Guido 2,000,000 were listening to this. (Its very good!)

    https://www.thelondoneconomic.com/news/osmosis-of-corruption-the-viral-james-obrien-video-that-has-racked-up-over-2-million-views-300298/
    Deflection from a story is a sad attempt to mask a genuine rebuke to Labour unless you are saying it is made up
    Do you think this story will dominate the front pages and news cycle like the Paterson story did?
    Why wouid anyone listen to James O'brien.ever,?
    Because he is a fluent and highly intelligent speaker. His observation that Johnson was born entitled, but his cabinet have had entitlement thrust upon them by Brexit, is spot on.
  • The PM needs to sort this stuff out as this will not end well. Some of us did predict trying to shift the blame to the Chief Whip/Whips over the Paterson vote was a courageous move by the PM

    This is quite something. Two different backbench Tory MPs tell me they have been approached by whips in the last 24 hours to tell them the Chief, Mark Spencer, was NOT the instigator of last week's disastrous motion, but he was following direct orders from the PM. It means...

    ...government whips have (officially or not) begun actively briefing against No10. Sources close to Spencer emphatically deny he sanctioned this. Govt source: “It was a Government decison. It’s a team game, we stand or fall together”. More on
    @TimesRadio at 4pm.


    https://twitter.com/tnewtondunn/status/1458098586445664256
  • kle4 said:

    kle4 said:

    I'm a little surprised on the report Labour are calling for an investigation specifically into Cox. It seems just an issue of him being an extreme example of how much you can earn doing another job as an MP than raking in money because you are an MP. Surely investigation should be for where there is a suggestion of wrongdoing (which the BBC report says there is not in his case), and the issue of having second jobs at all, and how much time you spend on them, is a matter for debate and discussion?


    Looks as if Labour are overplaying their hand


    https://twitter.com/GuidoFawkes/status/1458103687235125248?t=XDy4f163ezzoBYHNTLUmFA&s=19
    That is a funny letter. Politely worded rebukes can be hilarious, its why some legal judgements can be pretty entertaining.
    My most sarcastic response to a complaint from a random member of the public (not even a client or customer) was along the lines of

    1) You have no standing

    and

    2) There's so much wrong with your original 'complaint' that I don't know where to even begin but do not consider this response to be exhaustive, I shall only address the major points as a complete reply will lead to the complete deforestation of the Amazon rainforest due to the paper required to address every incomplete point you have raised.
    I'm disappointed there was no reference to Arkell v Pressdram.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,246
    kle4 said:

    Does he think Macron should be prosecuted?

    https://www.cnbc.com/2021/11/09/covid-vaccines-pfizer-ceo-says-people-who-spread-misinformation-on-shots-are-criminals.html

    Pfizer CEO says people who spread misinformation on Covid vaccines are ‘criminals’

    He's a French President, prosecution is pretty much mandatory.
    Not sure if that's criticism or envy in your post.
    Mittterand - His own set of "plumbers" 7 members of the President's anti-terrorist unit were condemned and François Mitterrand was designated as the "inspirator and essentially the controller of the operation."
    Chirac - Convicted of corruption
    Sarkozy - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nicolas_Sarkozy_corruption_trial
    Hollande - Nothing!
    Macron - ?
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,261
    Alistair said:

    Leon said:

    Alistair said:

    Leon said:

    Alistair said:

    Leon said:

    Cyclefree said:

    TimT said:

    Leon said:

    Taz said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Off topic, Daughter and I were out in London last night. Restaurant and theatre packed. A most enjoyable evening and a much-needed break for Daughter. I am worried about the immense strain she is under.

    Anyway, on our way into town (separately from some other appointments) we both noticed one thing which annoyed us and will doubtless be dismissed by many on here as hyper-sensitivity. But here goes anyway.

    There is a long corridor on the interchange between the Piccadilly and Jubilee lines. On it there are various Pride posters with stories and photos from individuals. All very lovely. No objection to this at all.

    There were 29 posters. Only 7 of them were women and one of these was of a mother of a gay person. So only 6 gay women out of 29. 6 women. 22 men.

    Why so few women? Why so few gay women? Are their stories not worth telling?

    Daughter pointed out that whenever gay marriage is talked about or discussed it is very often accompanied by illustrations of gay men getting married. Not gay women. It annoyed her.

    Then on the Central line at Bond Street a big poster saying how London stands together against hate. Well, yes, who wouldn't be?

    The precise words used in the poster are these -

    "London stands together against hate directed at someone on our transport network because of race, religion, sexual orientation, disability or gender identity."

    All very lovely. But spot what's missing. "Sex" - a protected characteristic and probably one of the single biggest reasons for attacks on women and girls. The Mayor talks a good game about Violence against Women and Girls but he cannot bring himself to mention sex in this poster. He ignores the fact that it is a "protected characteristic" in law. He is happy to include characteristics which aren't. But something which is - and which is of great concern to women, especially in relation to the risks they face when travelling - is ignored.

    Why? Deliberate? Or just forgotten?

    These may seem like small matters. But this sort of unconscious overlooking of women, of the female experience is all too common, all too pervasive and, ironically, occurs at a time when diversity is trumpeted loudly by all sorts of people keen to promote their progressive credentials.

    I rather feel that the more people talk about diversity the less likely they are to listen to actual women or do anything practical to help them.

    One day we might have 29 posters with 22 of them of women, a few men and a token father. A 50/50 representation would be a start. And - imagine - those posters, those choices were all, I expect, signed off by lots of people in numerous meeting and none of those preparing and implementing this campaign noticed what two women at both ends of the age spectrum noticed in minutes while travelling through. Or cared about the message it sends.

    Grrr.....



    Its deliberate because they're trying to write off sex as something that even exists.

    "Gender identity" covers "sex" in his eyes so that's the end of the story.
    Yup, stonewall have redefined homosexuality as same gender attraction as opposed to same sex. Lesbians need to embrace ‘girldick’ or be labelled ‘TERFS’ if they don’t with all that entails.
    Not sure I understand all of that..are you saying the Stonewall position is that have to accept a man transitioning to a waman who still has their tackle.?
    That is indeed the position of some trans radicals (not sure about Stonewall). A lesbian who refuses to have sex with an untransitioned trans man in possession of male genitals is not expressing a sexual preference for women, she is being "transphobic"

    It is pure madness

    Perhaps the trans community will join forces with the incels to demand the right to have sex with persons of their own choosing, regardless of the wishes of the targets of their 'affection'. Those claiming rape are just bigots.
    That is exactly what some of the nuttier trans loons are indeed arguing.

    It is a rape mentality. It is - I know some of you may not like what I am going to say next - a male mentality. Not that all males think like this. Far from it. But it is overwhelmingly only men who think like this.

    And it is why changing language does not change underlying reality. When men attack gay women for not having sex with them, even though they claim to be "women", they are no different in reality from the men of my youth who called women who would not sleep with them lesbians.

    Or told lesbians that a good fuck would change their minds about being lesbian.

    And bizarrely the CEO of Stonewall is repeating and implicitly endorsing this view, though this time she substitutes the phrase "societal pressures" for "a good fuck".
    The Virginia school loo/trans/rape story was quite eye opening
    Yeah, except the guy would did the sexual assault wasn't trans.
    He was wearing a skirt
    And? He apparently likes wearing skirts.

    That doesn't make him trans. That doesn't even make him gender fluid.


    Except, he is genderfluid?



    "A sexual assault committed by a 'gender fluid' teen who was then transferred to another high school is traumatizing Loudoun County, Virginia."



    https://eu.usatoday.com/story/opinion/voices/2021/10/29/trans-bathroom-policy-sexual-assault/8568005002/

    He wears a skirt, he's bisexual, he is genderfluid, he uses the female toilets, does that make you trans? It certainly makes you transvestite, he is knowingly wearing female clothing; but the modern terminology of the trans issue is so confusing I sincerely admit I do not know if I am using exactly the right words
    The only person who has called him gender fluid is the first victim's father. Its why it keeps appearing in quotes in news stories.

    Ay the time of the first assault, even if he was trans and was indentfying as a female, he wasn't allowed in the girls toilets anyways. So trying to make this about trans women's access to female toilets is a massive non starter.
    I believe the victim has also said the attacker is "genderfluid". We have had no evidence at all from the attacker theyselfs, so we just dunno for sure, but the only evidence is that he is genderfluid. Also, the skirt. He likes to wear a skirt. That seems pretty genderfluidy to me

    I'm not sure why you are highhorsing this one. It was a bleak, shabby incident which does not reflect well on Loudon County Schools. Or the New York Times
  • kle4 said:

    kle4 said:

    I'm a little surprised on the report Labour are calling for an investigation specifically into Cox. It seems just an issue of him being an extreme example of how much you can earn doing another job as an MP than raking in money because you are an MP. Surely investigation should be for where there is a suggestion of wrongdoing (which the BBC report says there is not in his case), and the issue of having second jobs at all, and how much time you spend on them, is a matter for debate and discussion?


    Looks as if Labour are overplaying their hand


    https://twitter.com/GuidoFawkes/status/1458103687235125248?t=XDy4f163ezzoBYHNTLUmFA&s=19
    That is a funny letter. Politely worded rebukes can be hilarious, its why some legal judgements can be pretty entertaining.
    My most sarcastic response to a complaint from a random member of the public (not even a client or customer) was along the lines of

    1) You have no standing

    and

    2) There's so much wrong with your original 'complaint' that I don't know where to even begin but do not consider this response to be exhaustive, I shall only address the major points as a complete reply will lead to the complete deforestation of the Amazon rainforest due to the paper required to address every incomplete point you have raised.
    I'm disappointed there was no reference to Arkell v Pressdram.
    I was tempted but you know I'm a professional and regulated by some professional standards bodies.
  • RogerRoger Posts: 19,900
    I'm in Aberdeen at the moment and came across someone who went to school with a prominent member of the cabinet. He expressed surprise (and I quote) "that it was so little known he was a back passage storm trooper"

  • JBriskin3JBriskin3 Posts: 1,254
    Roger said:

    I'm in Aberdeen at the moment and came across someone who went to school with a prominent member of the cabinet. He expressed surprise (and I quote) "that it was so little known he was a back passage storm trooper"

    You can only be referncing Gove
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830
    Alistair said:

    Leon said:

    Alistair said:

    Leon said:

    Alistair said:

    Leon said:

    Cyclefree said:

    TimT said:

    Leon said:

    Taz said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Off topic, Daughter and I were out in London last night. Restaurant and theatre packed. A most enjoyable evening and a much-needed break for Daughter. I am worried about the immense strain she is under.

    Anyway, on our way into town (separately from some other appointments) we both noticed one thing which annoyed us and will doubtless be dismissed by many on here as hyper-sensitivity. But here goes anyway.

    There is a long corridor on the interchange between the Piccadilly and Jubilee lines. On it there are various Pride posters with stories and photos from individuals. All very lovely. No objection to this at all.

    There were 29 posters. Only 7 of them were women and one of these was of a mother of a gay person. So only 6 gay women out of 29. 6 women. 22 men.

    Why so few women? Why so few gay women? Are their stories not worth telling?

    Daughter pointed out that whenever gay marriage is talked about or discussed it is very often accompanied by illustrations of gay men getting married. Not gay women. It annoyed her.

    Then on the Central line at Bond Street a big poster saying how London stands together against hate. Well, yes, who wouldn't be?

    The precise words used in the poster are these -

    "London stands together against hate directed at someone on our transport network because of race, religion, sexual orientation, disability or gender identity."

    All very lovely. But spot what's missing. "Sex" - a protected characteristic and probably one of the single biggest reasons for attacks on women and girls. The Mayor talks a good game about Violence against Women and Girls but he cannot bring himself to mention sex in this poster. He ignores the fact that it is a "protected characteristic" in law. He is happy to include characteristics which aren't. But something which is - and which is of great concern to women, especially in relation to the risks they face when travelling - is ignored.

    Why? Deliberate? Or just forgotten?

    These may seem like small matters. But this sort of unconscious overlooking of women, of the female experience is all too common, all too pervasive and, ironically, occurs at a time when diversity is trumpeted loudly by all sorts of people keen to promote their progressive credentials.

    I rather feel that the more people talk about diversity the less likely they are to listen to actual women or do anything practical to help them.

    One day we might have 29 posters with 22 of them of women, a few men and a token father. A 50/50 representation would be a start. And - imagine - those posters, those choices were all, I expect, signed off by lots of people in numerous meeting and none of those preparing and implementing this campaign noticed what two women at both ends of the age spectrum noticed in minutes while travelling through. Or cared about the message it sends.

    Grrr.....



    Its deliberate because they're trying to write off sex as something that even exists.

    "Gender identity" covers "sex" in his eyes so that's the end of the story.
    Yup, stonewall have redefined homosexuality as same gender attraction as opposed to same sex. Lesbians need to embrace ‘girldick’ or be labelled ‘TERFS’ if they don’t with all that entails.
    Not sure I understand all of that..are you saying the Stonewall position is that have to accept a man transitioning to a waman who still has their tackle.?
    That is indeed the position of some trans radicals (not sure about Stonewall). A lesbian who refuses to have sex with an untransitioned trans man in possession of male genitals is not expressing a sexual preference for women, she is being "transphobic"

    It is pure madness

    Perhaps the trans community will join forces with the incels to demand the right to have sex with persons of their own choosing, regardless of the wishes of the targets of their 'affection'. Those claiming rape are just bigots.
    That is exactly what some of the nuttier trans loons are indeed arguing.

    It is a rape mentality. It is - I know some of you may not like what I am going to say next - a male mentality. Not that all males think like this. Far from it. But it is overwhelmingly only men who think like this.

    And it is why changing language does not change underlying reality. When men attack gay women for not having sex with them, even though they claim to be "women", they are no different in reality from the men of my youth who called women who would not sleep with them lesbians.

    Or told lesbians that a good fuck would change their minds about being lesbian.

    And bizarrely the CEO of Stonewall is repeating and implicitly endorsing this view, though this time she substitutes the phrase "societal pressures" for "a good fuck".
    The Virginia school loo/trans/rape story was quite eye opening
    Yeah, except the guy would did the sexual assault wasn't trans.
    He was wearing a skirt
    And? He apparently likes wearing skirts.

    That doesn't make him trans. That doesn't even make him gender fluid.


    Except, he is genderfluid?



    "A sexual assault committed by a 'gender fluid' teen who was then transferred to another high school is traumatizing Loudoun County, Virginia."



    https://eu.usatoday.com/story/opinion/voices/2021/10/29/trans-bathroom-policy-sexual-assault/8568005002/

    He wears a skirt, he's bisexual, he is genderfluid, he uses the female toilets, does that make you trans? It certainly makes you transvestite, he is knowingly wearing female clothing; but the modern terminology of the trans issue is so confusing I sincerely admit I do not know if I am using exactly the right words
    The only person who has called him gender fluid is the first victim's father. Its why it keeps appearing in quotes in news stories.

    Ay the time of the first assault, even if he was trans and was indentfying as a female, he wasn't allowed in the girls toilets anyways. So trying to make this about trans women's access to female toilets is a massive non starter.
    Let me quote myself

    "Here's the heart of the NYT's case that it was nothing to do with trans rights

    "The boy was indeed wearing a skirt, but that skirt didn’t authorize him to use the girls’ bathroom. As Amanda Terkel reported in HuffPost, the school district’s trans-inclusive bathroom policies were approved only in August, more than two months after the assault."

    See any weaknesses there?"

    I will give you a clue: if a policy is two months away from approval in an organization as bureaucratic as a school, it is virtually in place already.

    The opportunity to enter a women's toilet dressed in a skirt is such an open goal for a wide range of male, masculine gender, heterosexual perverts that you can either conceded that the number of them trying to do so is at least, ooh, 50x the number of genuinely trans women wishing to do so, or you have to argue that heterosexual male perversion is a myth concocted by transphobes. Which is it?
  • squareroot2squareroot2 Posts: 6,723
    Roger said:

    I'm in Aberdeen at the moment and came across someone who went to school with a prominent member of the cabinet. He expressed surprise (and I quote) "that it was so little known he was a back passage storm trooper"

    You just happened to.meet this person and he decided to tell you this unprompted.. ? Liklihood of this 0%

  • OmniumOmnium Posts: 10,758

    Omnium said:

    Omnium said:

    TOPPING said:

    Farooq said:

    Farooq said:

    Farooq said:

    Stocky said:

    Farooq said:

    Farooq said:
    But with theirs on the way up and ours on the way down.

    Thank goodness we resisted the siren call to use masks and other NPIs etc during the summer and autumn.
    Theirs have been rising and ours have been falling is fairer. If you want to make predictions about where case numbers are going, that's your business. I won't follow you there.
    All you need to remember is that the high number of Covid cases and deaths in the UK is completely immaterial; it's the end of lockdown that counts. But in countries other than the UK, high numbers of cases and deaths are a sign of doom and massive governmental incompetence. That's right, isn't it?
    Re: other countries, high numbers of cases and deaths may be an indication of bad decision-making if accompanied by more draconian measures than us. Worst of both worlds sort of thing.
    In terms of Denmark v the UK, here's the stringency index over time, that shows that most of the time, the UK has had more stringent restrictions than Denmark: https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/covid-stringency-index?tab=chart&country=GBR~DNK
    The UK has no legal restrictions currently so why are they rating the UK as a 41.2 at the moment?

    Though I see its based upon the 'strictest sub-region' so that would include any restrictions by Holyrood etc as "UK".
    I was wrong to use the word restrictions. It's wider than just prohibitions.
    Additional: I've been digging into the data a little and it's troubling. The current value for face coverings in England is listed as "2". In Scotland it's "3". The levels are:
    0- No policy
    1- Recommended
    2- Required in some specified shared/public spaces outside the home with other people present, or some situations when social distancing not possible
    3- Required in all shared/public spaces outside the home with other people present or all situations when social distancing not possible

    This seems wrong, to me. As I understand it, the mask level should be at most "1" for England.

    I withdraw any point I have made about the stringency index until and unless I find out that this is my mistake and not theirs.
    Face masks are required on public transport in England so that would fit with being a 2.

    I opened your document but couldn't work out where to go for the "executive summary".

    Seems a lot in there.
    No they're not.

    Face masks are not legally required in public transport in England. TFL don't make the law.

    I believe they are legally required in care homes and some other healthcare settings though.
    They should be compulsory on the tube and enforced by the law rather than tfl's ire (no fault of theirs)
    Why?

    No they shouldn't. Just because TFL have overreached doesn't mean it should be the law.
    Why? - The tube is a special case of ridiculously close contact in an unventilated space.
    So what?

    If people choose to wear a mask then, that's their choice. If they don't, ditto. That's the law as it is and as it should be.

    The guidance to wear masks should be dropped.
    It's one of the most likely places for infection. It's an easy line to draw too. Until the spring we should wear masks where we can and where it's sensible. It's really not so tough.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,071

    The PM needs to sort this stuff out as this will not end well. Some of us did predict trying to shift the blame to the Chief Whip/Whips over the Paterson vote was a courageous move by the PM

    This is quite something. Two different backbench Tory MPs tell me they have been approached by whips in the last 24 hours to tell them the Chief, Mark Spencer, was NOT the instigator of last week's disastrous motion, but he was following direct orders from the PM. It means...

    ...government whips have (officially or not) begun actively briefing against No10. Sources close to Spencer emphatically deny he sanctioned this. Govt source: “It was a Government decison. It’s a team game, we stand or fall together”. More on
    @TimesRadio at 4pm.


    https://twitter.com/tnewtondunn/status/1458098586445664256

    As a criticism it made little sense, much as the purported justifications over the whole business did not. There was no way the Chief Whip went off piste on a directive from No.10, or never filtered back concerns.
  • Omnium said:

    Omnium said:

    Omnium said:

    TOPPING said:

    Farooq said:

    Farooq said:

    Farooq said:

    Stocky said:

    Farooq said:

    Farooq said:
    But with theirs on the way up and ours on the way down.

    Thank goodness we resisted the siren call to use masks and other NPIs etc during the summer and autumn.
    Theirs have been rising and ours have been falling is fairer. If you want to make predictions about where case numbers are going, that's your business. I won't follow you there.
    All you need to remember is that the high number of Covid cases and deaths in the UK is completely immaterial; it's the end of lockdown that counts. But in countries other than the UK, high numbers of cases and deaths are a sign of doom and massive governmental incompetence. That's right, isn't it?
    Re: other countries, high numbers of cases and deaths may be an indication of bad decision-making if accompanied by more draconian measures than us. Worst of both worlds sort of thing.
    In terms of Denmark v the UK, here's the stringency index over time, that shows that most of the time, the UK has had more stringent restrictions than Denmark: https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/covid-stringency-index?tab=chart&country=GBR~DNK
    The UK has no legal restrictions currently so why are they rating the UK as a 41.2 at the moment?

    Though I see its based upon the 'strictest sub-region' so that would include any restrictions by Holyrood etc as "UK".
    I was wrong to use the word restrictions. It's wider than just prohibitions.
    Additional: I've been digging into the data a little and it's troubling. The current value for face coverings in England is listed as "2". In Scotland it's "3". The levels are:
    0- No policy
    1- Recommended
    2- Required in some specified shared/public spaces outside the home with other people present, or some situations when social distancing not possible
    3- Required in all shared/public spaces outside the home with other people present or all situations when social distancing not possible

    This seems wrong, to me. As I understand it, the mask level should be at most "1" for England.

    I withdraw any point I have made about the stringency index until and unless I find out that this is my mistake and not theirs.
    Face masks are required on public transport in England so that would fit with being a 2.

    I opened your document but couldn't work out where to go for the "executive summary".

    Seems a lot in there.
    No they're not.

    Face masks are not legally required in public transport in England. TFL don't make the law.

    I believe they are legally required in care homes and some other healthcare settings though.
    They should be compulsory on the tube and enforced by the law rather than tfl's ire (no fault of theirs)
    Why?

    No they shouldn't. Just because TFL have overreached doesn't mean it should be the law.
    Why? - The tube is a special case of ridiculously close contact in an unventilated space.
    So what?

    If people choose to wear a mask then, that's their choice. If they don't, ditto. That's the law as it is and as it should be.

    The guidance to wear masks should be dropped.
    It's one of the most likely places for infection. It's an easy line to draw too. Until the spring we should wear masks where we can and where it's sensible. It's really not so tough.
    It really is.

    Stopping infection isn't something we should be doing with NPIs. That's last year's policy.

    We have PIs now. Its time to live with the fact that infections happen, not try to prevent them.
  • CookieCookie Posts: 13,783
    Omnium said:

    Omnium said:

    Omnium said:

    TOPPING said:

    Farooq said:

    Farooq said:

    Farooq said:

    Stocky said:

    Farooq said:

    Farooq said:
    But with theirs on the way up and ours on the way down.

    Thank goodness we resisted the siren call to use masks and other NPIs etc during the summer and autumn.
    Theirs have been rising and ours have been falling is fairer. If you want to make predictions about where case numbers are going, that's your business. I won't follow you there.
    All you need to remember is that the high number of Covid cases and deaths in the UK is completely immaterial; it's the end of lockdown that counts. But in countries other than the UK, high numbers of cases and deaths are a sign of doom and massive governmental incompetence. That's right, isn't it?
    Re: other countries, high numbers of cases and deaths may be an indication of bad decision-making if accompanied by more draconian measures than us. Worst of both worlds sort of thing.
    In terms of Denmark v the UK, here's the stringency index over time, that shows that most of the time, the UK has had more stringent restrictions than Denmark: https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/covid-stringency-index?tab=chart&country=GBR~DNK
    The UK has no legal restrictions currently so why are they rating the UK as a 41.2 at the moment?

    Though I see its based upon the 'strictest sub-region' so that would include any restrictions by Holyrood etc as "UK".
    I was wrong to use the word restrictions. It's wider than just prohibitions.
    Additional: I've been digging into the data a little and it's troubling. The current value for face coverings in England is listed as "2". In Scotland it's "3". The levels are:
    0- No policy
    1- Recommended
    2- Required in some specified shared/public spaces outside the home with other people present, or some situations when social distancing not possible
    3- Required in all shared/public spaces outside the home with other people present or all situations when social distancing not possible

    This seems wrong, to me. As I understand it, the mask level should be at most "1" for England.

    I withdraw any point I have made about the stringency index until and unless I find out that this is my mistake and not theirs.
    Face masks are required on public transport in England so that would fit with being a 2.

    I opened your document but couldn't work out where to go for the "executive summary".

    Seems a lot in there.
    No they're not.

    Face masks are not legally required in public transport in England. TFL don't make the law.

    I believe they are legally required in care homes and some other healthcare settings though.
    They should be compulsory on the tube and enforced by the law rather than tfl's ire (no fault of theirs)
    Why?

    No they shouldn't. Just because TFL have overreached doesn't mean it should be the law.
    Why? - The tube is a special case of ridiculously close contact in an unventilated space.
    So what?

    If people choose to wear a mask then, that's their choice. If they don't, ditto. That's the law as it is and as it should be.

    The guidance to wear masks should be dropped.
    It's one of the most likely places for infection. It's an easy line to draw too. Until the spring we should wear masks where we can and where it's sensible. It's really not so tough.
    It's always just another few months, isn't it? At some point we need to just say enough enough. That point should have been June 2021.

    I was in someone else's office today. Refreshingly, after my public sector office which still insists on the mask dance, there was a sign on the door saying that mask wearing was a personal choice and requesting that everyone respect everyone else's choice. Not one mask was in evidence.
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 23,479
    The ‘rule’ on masking on TFL is never enforced. Literally never, in my experience.

    Yes, it is a rule. But it is similar in nature to the law about Chester dwellers having to shoot Welshmen on Sundays*

    * (yes, I know, I know)
  • Omnium said:

    Omnium said:

    TOPPING said:

    Farooq said:

    Farooq said:

    Farooq said:

    Stocky said:

    Farooq said:

    Farooq said:
    But with theirs on the way up and ours on the way down.

    Thank goodness we resisted the siren call to use masks and other NPIs etc during the summer and autumn.
    Theirs have been rising and ours have been falling is fairer. If you want to make predictions about where case numbers are going, that's your business. I won't follow you there.
    All you need to remember is that the high number of Covid cases and deaths in the UK is completely immaterial; it's the end of lockdown that counts. But in countries other than the UK, high numbers of cases and deaths are a sign of doom and massive governmental incompetence. That's right, isn't it?
    Re: other countries, high numbers of cases and deaths may be an indication of bad decision-making if accompanied by more draconian measures than us. Worst of both worlds sort of thing.
    In terms of Denmark v the UK, here's the stringency index over time, that shows that most of the time, the UK has had more stringent restrictions than Denmark: https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/covid-stringency-index?tab=chart&country=GBR~DNK
    The UK has no legal restrictions currently so why are they rating the UK as a 41.2 at the moment?

    Though I see its based upon the 'strictest sub-region' so that would include any restrictions by Holyrood etc as "UK".
    I was wrong to use the word restrictions. It's wider than just prohibitions.
    Additional: I've been digging into the data a little and it's troubling. The current value for face coverings in England is listed as "2". In Scotland it's "3". The levels are:
    0- No policy
    1- Recommended
    2- Required in some specified shared/public spaces outside the home with other people present, or some situations when social distancing not possible
    3- Required in all shared/public spaces outside the home with other people present or all situations when social distancing not possible

    This seems wrong, to me. As I understand it, the mask level should be at most "1" for England.

    I withdraw any point I have made about the stringency index until and unless I find out that this is my mistake and not theirs.
    Face masks are required on public transport in England so that would fit with being a 2.

    I opened your document but couldn't work out where to go for the "executive summary".

    Seems a lot in there.
    No they're not.

    Face masks are not legally required in public transport in England. TFL don't make the law.

    I believe they are legally required in care homes and some other healthcare settings though.
    They should be compulsory on the tube and enforced by the law rather than tfl's ire (no fault of theirs)
    Why?

    No they shouldn't. Just because TFL have overreached doesn't mean it should be the law.
    Why? - The tube is a special case of ridiculously close contact in an unventilated space.
    So what?

    If people choose to wear a mask then, that's their choice. If they don't, ditto. That's the law as it is and as it should be.

    The guidance to wear masks should be dropped.
    https://tfl.gov.uk/campaign/face-coverings

  • OmniumOmnium Posts: 10,758
    Cookie said:

    Omnium said:

    Omnium said:

    Omnium said:

    TOPPING said:

    Farooq said:

    Farooq said:

    Farooq said:

    Stocky said:

    Farooq said:

    Farooq said:
    But with theirs on the way up and ours on the way down.

    Thank goodness we resisted the siren call to use masks and other NPIs etc during the summer and autumn.
    Theirs have been rising and ours have been falling is fairer. If you want to make predictions about where case numbers are going, that's your business. I won't follow you there.
    All you need to remember is that the high number of Covid cases and deaths in the UK is completely immaterial; it's the end of lockdown that counts. But in countries other than the UK, high numbers of cases and deaths are a sign of doom and massive governmental incompetence. That's right, isn't it?
    Re: other countries, high numbers of cases and deaths may be an indication of bad decision-making if accompanied by more draconian measures than us. Worst of both worlds sort of thing.
    In terms of Denmark v the UK, here's the stringency index over time, that shows that most of the time, the UK has had more stringent restrictions than Denmark: https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/covid-stringency-index?tab=chart&country=GBR~DNK
    The UK has no legal restrictions currently so why are they rating the UK as a 41.2 at the moment?

    Though I see its based upon the 'strictest sub-region' so that would include any restrictions by Holyrood etc as "UK".
    I was wrong to use the word restrictions. It's wider than just prohibitions.
    Additional: I've been digging into the data a little and it's troubling. The current value for face coverings in England is listed as "2". In Scotland it's "3". The levels are:
    0- No policy
    1- Recommended
    2- Required in some specified shared/public spaces outside the home with other people present, or some situations when social distancing not possible
    3- Required in all shared/public spaces outside the home with other people present or all situations when social distancing not possible

    This seems wrong, to me. As I understand it, the mask level should be at most "1" for England.

    I withdraw any point I have made about the stringency index until and unless I find out that this is my mistake and not theirs.
    Face masks are required on public transport in England so that would fit with being a 2.

    I opened your document but couldn't work out where to go for the "executive summary".

    Seems a lot in there.
    No they're not.

    Face masks are not legally required in public transport in England. TFL don't make the law.

    I believe they are legally required in care homes and some other healthcare settings though.
    They should be compulsory on the tube and enforced by the law rather than tfl's ire (no fault of theirs)
    Why?

    No they shouldn't. Just because TFL have overreached doesn't mean it should be the law.
    Why? - The tube is a special case of ridiculously close contact in an unventilated space.
    So what?

    If people choose to wear a mask then, that's their choice. If they don't, ditto. That's the law as it is and as it should be.

    The guidance to wear masks should be dropped.
    It's one of the most likely places for infection. It's an easy line to draw too. Until the spring we should wear masks where we can and where it's sensible. It's really not so tough.
    It's always just another few months, isn't it? At some point we need to just say enough enough. That point should have been June 2021.

    I was in someone else's office today. Refreshingly, after my public sector office which still insists on the mask dance, there was a sign on the door saying that mask wearing was a personal choice and requesting that everyone respect everyone else's choice. Not one mask was in evidence.
    Nothing at all suggested that I was 'just another few months' in my view.
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830

    Roger said:

    I'm in Aberdeen at the moment and came across someone who went to school with a prominent member of the cabinet. He expressed surprise (and I quote) "that it was so little known he was a back passage storm trooper"

    You just happened to.meet this person and he decided to tell you this unprompted.. ? Liklihood of this 0%

    Where are you getting "unprompted" from? Du calme, mon ami, il ne s'agit pas du FLSOJ™.
  • RogerRoger Posts: 19,900

    Roger said:

    I'm in Aberdeen at the moment and came across someone who went to school with a prominent member of the cabinet. He expressed surprise (and I quote) "that it was so little known he was a back passage storm trooper"

    You just happened to.meet this person and he decided to tell you this unprompted.. ? Liklihood of this 0%

    I am staying with a relative in Aberdeen who had some friends over. It's quite common I think you'll find!
  • OmniumOmnium Posts: 10,758

    Omnium said:

    Omnium said:

    Omnium said:

    TOPPING said:

    Farooq said:

    Farooq said:

    Farooq said:

    Stocky said:

    Farooq said:

    Farooq said:
    But with theirs on the way up and ours on the way down.

    Thank goodness we resisted the siren call to use masks and other NPIs etc during the summer and autumn.
    Theirs have been rising and ours have been falling is fairer. If you want to make predictions about where case numbers are going, that's your business. I won't follow you there.
    All you need to remember is that the high number of Covid cases and deaths in the UK is completely immaterial; it's the end of lockdown that counts. But in countries other than the UK, high numbers of cases and deaths are a sign of doom and massive governmental incompetence. That's right, isn't it?
    Re: other countries, high numbers of cases and deaths may be an indication of bad decision-making if accompanied by more draconian measures than us. Worst of both worlds sort of thing.
    In terms of Denmark v the UK, here's the stringency index over time, that shows that most of the time, the UK has had more stringent restrictions than Denmark: https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/covid-stringency-index?tab=chart&country=GBR~DNK
    The UK has no legal restrictions currently so why are they rating the UK as a 41.2 at the moment?

    Though I see its based upon the 'strictest sub-region' so that would include any restrictions by Holyrood etc as "UK".
    I was wrong to use the word restrictions. It's wider than just prohibitions.
    Additional: I've been digging into the data a little and it's troubling. The current value for face coverings in England is listed as "2". In Scotland it's "3". The levels are:
    0- No policy
    1- Recommended
    2- Required in some specified shared/public spaces outside the home with other people present, or some situations when social distancing not possible
    3- Required in all shared/public spaces outside the home with other people present or all situations when social distancing not possible

    This seems wrong, to me. As I understand it, the mask level should be at most "1" for England.

    I withdraw any point I have made about the stringency index until and unless I find out that this is my mistake and not theirs.
    Face masks are required on public transport in England so that would fit with being a 2.

    I opened your document but couldn't work out where to go for the "executive summary".

    Seems a lot in there.
    No they're not.

    Face masks are not legally required in public transport in England. TFL don't make the law.

    I believe they are legally required in care homes and some other healthcare settings though.
    They should be compulsory on the tube and enforced by the law rather than tfl's ire (no fault of theirs)
    Why?

    No they shouldn't. Just because TFL have overreached doesn't mean it should be the law.
    Why? - The tube is a special case of ridiculously close contact in an unventilated space.
    So what?

    If people choose to wear a mask then, that's their choice. If they don't, ditto. That's the law as it is and as it should be.

    The guidance to wear masks should be dropped.
    It's one of the most likely places for infection. It's an easy line to draw too. Until the spring we should wear masks where we can and where it's sensible. It's really not so tough.
    It really is.

    Stopping infection isn't something we should be doing with NPIs. That's last year's policy.

    We have PIs now. Its time to live with the fact that infections happen, not try to prevent them.
    Good god. Work with what I've said rather than what you want to think I've said.
  • JBriskin3JBriskin3 Posts: 1,254
    Roger said:

    Roger said:

    I'm in Aberdeen at the moment and came across someone who went to school with a prominent member of the cabinet. He expressed surprise (and I quote) "that it was so little known he was a back passage storm trooper"

    You just happened to.meet this person and he decided to tell you this unprompted.. ? Liklihood of this 0%

    I am staying with a relative in Aberdeen who had some friends over. It's quite common I think you'll find!
    I'll meet you for a pint in The White Cockade if you want.
  • AlistairMAlistairM Posts: 2,005
    Covid anecdote on Germany

    I was speaking to a work colleague of mine in Germany today. He was lambasting the Covid situation there. They are going into the Rhine festival season (not heard of this before and no idea what it is) and apparently this will happen almost without restrictions including lots of cheek kissing, sharing of beer glasses etc. Also as there is no new Chancellor in Germany yet he says that no one is really making decisions and therefore there is a complete lack of leadership. He thinks the Covid situation there is going to get substantially worse very, very quickly.
  • RogerRoger Posts: 19,900
    Roger said:

    I'm in Aberdeen at the moment and came across someone who went to school with a prominent member of the cabinet. He expressed surprise (and I quote) "that it was so little known he was a back passage storm trooper"

    I was just taken by the expression which I haven't heard before. It would be tasteless to name names.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,571
    Roger said:

    Roger said:

    I'm in Aberdeen at the moment and came across someone who went to school with a prominent member of the cabinet. He expressed surprise (and I quote) "that it was so little known he was a back passage storm trooper"

    You just happened to.meet this person and he decided to tell you this unprompted.. ? Liklihood of this 0%

    I am staying with a relative in Aberdeen who had some friends over. It's quite common I think you'll find!
    My mum's whist partner's hamster's chiropodist's golf-caddy's step-dad said that you'll believe anything you hear, Roger.
  • CookieCookie Posts: 13,783
    Omnium said:

    Cookie said:

    Omnium said:

    Omnium said:

    Omnium said:

    TOPPING said:

    Farooq said:

    Farooq said:

    Farooq said:

    Stocky said:

    Farooq said:

    Farooq said:
    But with theirs on the way up and ours on the way down.

    Thank goodness we resisted the siren call to use masks and other NPIs etc during the summer and autumn.
    Theirs have been rising and ours have been falling is fairer. If you want to make predictions about where case numbers are going, that's your business. I won't follow you there.
    All you need to remember is that the high number of Covid cases and deaths in the UK is completely immaterial; it's the end of lockdown that counts. But in countries other than the UK, high numbers of cases and deaths are a sign of doom and massive governmental incompetence. That's right, isn't it?
    Re: other countries, high numbers of cases and deaths may be an indication of bad decision-making if accompanied by more draconian measures than us. Worst of both worlds sort of thing.
    In terms of Denmark v the UK, here's the stringency index over time, that shows that most of the time, the UK has had more stringent restrictions than Denmark: https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/covid-stringency-index?tab=chart&country=GBR~DNK
    The UK has no legal restrictions currently so why are they rating the UK as a 41.2 at the moment?

    Though I see its based upon the 'strictest sub-region' so that would include any restrictions by Holyrood etc as "UK".
    I was wrong to use the word restrictions. It's wider than just prohibitions.
    Additional: I've been digging into the data a little and it's troubling. The current value for face coverings in England is listed as "2". In Scotland it's "3". The levels are:
    0- No policy
    1- Recommended
    2- Required in some specified shared/public spaces outside the home with other people present, or some situations when social distancing not possible
    3- Required in all shared/public spaces outside the home with other people present or all situations when social distancing not possible

    This seems wrong, to me. As I understand it, the mask level should be at most "1" for England.

    I withdraw any point I have made about the stringency index until and unless I find out that this is my mistake and not theirs.
    Face masks are required on public transport in England so that would fit with being a 2.

    I opened your document but couldn't work out where to go for the "executive summary".

    Seems a lot in there.
    No they're not.

    Face masks are not legally required in public transport in England. TFL don't make the law.

    I believe they are legally required in care homes and some other healthcare settings though.
    They should be compulsory on the tube and enforced by the law rather than tfl's ire (no fault of theirs)
    Why?

    No they shouldn't. Just because TFL have overreached doesn't mean it should be the law.
    Why? - The tube is a special case of ridiculously close contact in an unventilated space.
    So what?

    If people choose to wear a mask then, that's their choice. If they don't, ditto. That's the law as it is and as it should be.

    The guidance to wear masks should be dropped.
    It's one of the most likely places for infection. It's an easy line to draw too. Until the spring we should wear masks where we can and where it's sensible. It's really not so tough.
    It's always just another few months, isn't it? At some point we need to just say enough enough. That point should have been June 2021.

    I was in someone else's office today. Refreshingly, after my public sector office which still insists on the mask dance, there was a sign on the door saying that mask wearing was a personal choice and requesting that everyone respect everyone else's choice. Not one mask was in evidence.
    Nothing at all suggested that I was 'just another few months' in my view.
    I was basing my inference on the words 'until the Spring'.
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830
    Roger said:

    Roger said:

    I'm in Aberdeen at the moment and came across someone who went to school with a prominent member of the cabinet. He expressed surprise (and I quote) "that it was so little known he was a back passage storm trooper"

    I was just taken by the expression which I haven't heard before. It would be tasteless to name names.
    quite so. Could be any of the Aberdonians in the Cabinet.
  • Omnium said:

    Omnium said:

    TOPPING said:

    Farooq said:

    Farooq said:

    Farooq said:

    Stocky said:

    Farooq said:

    Farooq said:
    But with theirs on the way up and ours on the way down.

    Thank goodness we resisted the siren call to use masks and other NPIs etc during the summer and autumn.
    Theirs have been rising and ours have been falling is fairer. If you want to make predictions about where case numbers are going, that's your business. I won't follow you there.
    All you need to remember is that the high number of Covid cases and deaths in the UK is completely immaterial; it's the end of lockdown that counts. But in countries other than the UK, high numbers of cases and deaths are a sign of doom and massive governmental incompetence. That's right, isn't it?
    Re: other countries, high numbers of cases and deaths may be an indication of bad decision-making if accompanied by more draconian measures than us. Worst of both worlds sort of thing.
    In terms of Denmark v the UK, here's the stringency index over time, that shows that most of the time, the UK has had more stringent restrictions than Denmark: https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/covid-stringency-index?tab=chart&country=GBR~DNK
    The UK has no legal restrictions currently so why are they rating the UK as a 41.2 at the moment?

    Though I see its based upon the 'strictest sub-region' so that would include any restrictions by Holyrood etc as "UK".
    I was wrong to use the word restrictions. It's wider than just prohibitions.
    Additional: I've been digging into the data a little and it's troubling. The current value for face coverings in England is listed as "2". In Scotland it's "3". The levels are:
    0- No policy
    1- Recommended
    2- Required in some specified shared/public spaces outside the home with other people present, or some situations when social distancing not possible
    3- Required in all shared/public spaces outside the home with other people present or all situations when social distancing not possible

    This seems wrong, to me. As I understand it, the mask level should be at most "1" for England.

    I withdraw any point I have made about the stringency index until and unless I find out that this is my mistake and not theirs.
    Face masks are required on public transport in England so that would fit with being a 2.

    I opened your document but couldn't work out where to go for the "executive summary".

    Seems a lot in there.
    No they're not.

    Face masks are not legally required in public transport in England. TFL don't make the law.

    I believe they are legally required in care homes and some other healthcare settings though.
    They should be compulsory on the tube and enforced by the law rather than tfl's ire (no fault of theirs)
    Why?

    No they shouldn't. Just because TFL have overreached doesn't mean it should be the law.
    Why? - The tube is a special case of ridiculously close contact in an unventilated space.
    So what?

    If people choose to wear a mask then, that's their choice. If they don't, ditto. That's the law as it is and as it should be.

    The guidance to wear masks should be dropped.
    https://tfl.gov.uk/campaign/face-coverings

    TFL do not set the law.

    They are welcome to make their own policies in their own premises just as a pub can say no shoes, no shirt, no service.

    But it's not the law. Quite right too.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,653
    Aimless anecdote:

    We went into Salisbury shopping today. It was... surprsingly... busy!

    Lots of shoppers and full cafes, especially those with street seating.

    60-70% mask wearing in shops I'd say.

    Salisbury has had a wretched few years and it is a much underrated place, so it was good to see it looking so lively today.

    Report ends.
  • OmniumOmnium Posts: 10,758
    Cookie said:

    Omnium said:

    Cookie said:

    Omnium said:

    Omnium said:

    Omnium said:

    TOPPING said:

    Farooq said:

    Farooq said:

    Farooq said:

    Stocky said:

    Farooq said:

    Farooq said:
    But with theirs on the way up and ours on the way down.

    Thank goodness we resisted the siren call to use masks and other NPIs etc during the summer and autumn.
    Theirs have been rising and ours have been falling is fairer. If you want to make predictions about where case numbers are going, that's your business. I won't follow you there.
    All you need to remember is that the high number of Covid cases and deaths in the UK is completely immaterial; it's the end of lockdown that counts. But in countries other than the UK, high numbers of cases and deaths are a sign of doom and massive governmental incompetence. That's right, isn't it?
    Re: other countries, high numbers of cases and deaths may be an indication of bad decision-making if accompanied by more draconian measures than us. Worst of both worlds sort of thing.
    In terms of Denmark v the UK, here's the stringency index over time, that shows that most of the time, the UK has had more stringent restrictions than Denmark: https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/covid-stringency-index?tab=chart&country=GBR~DNK
    The UK has no legal restrictions currently so why are they rating the UK as a 41.2 at the moment?

    Though I see its based upon the 'strictest sub-region' so that would include any restrictions by Holyrood etc as "UK".
    I was wrong to use the word restrictions. It's wider than just prohibitions.
    Additional: I've been digging into the data a little and it's troubling. The current value for face coverings in England is listed as "2". In Scotland it's "3". The levels are:
    0- No policy
    1- Recommended
    2- Required in some specified shared/public spaces outside the home with other people present, or some situations when social distancing not possible
    3- Required in all shared/public spaces outside the home with other people present or all situations when social distancing not possible

    This seems wrong, to me. As I understand it, the mask level should be at most "1" for England.

    I withdraw any point I have made about the stringency index until and unless I find out that this is my mistake and not theirs.
    Face masks are required on public transport in England so that would fit with being a 2.

    I opened your document but couldn't work out where to go for the "executive summary".

    Seems a lot in there.
    No they're not.

    Face masks are not legally required in public transport in England. TFL don't make the law.

    I believe they are legally required in care homes and some other healthcare settings though.
    They should be compulsory on the tube and enforced by the law rather than tfl's ire (no fault of theirs)
    Why?

    No they shouldn't. Just because TFL have overreached doesn't mean it should be the law.
    Why? - The tube is a special case of ridiculously close contact in an unventilated space.
    So what?

    If people choose to wear a mask then, that's their choice. If they don't, ditto. That's the law as it is and as it should be.

    The guidance to wear masks should be dropped.
    It's one of the most likely places for infection. It's an easy line to draw too. Until the spring we should wear masks where we can and where it's sensible. It's really not so tough.
    It's always just another few months, isn't it? At some point we need to just say enough enough. That point should have been June 2021.

    I was in someone else's office today. Refreshingly, after my public sector office which still insists on the mask dance, there was a sign on the door saying that mask wearing was a personal choice and requesting that everyone respect everyone else's choice. Not one mask was in evidence.
    Nothing at all suggested that I was 'just another few months' in my view.
    I was basing my inference on the words 'until the Spring'.
    Ah, I see. Just the spring is the best time to go risky. No prediction as to the virus.
  • Omnium said:

    Omnium said:

    Omnium said:

    Omnium said:

    TOPPING said:

    Farooq said:

    Farooq said:

    Farooq said:

    Stocky said:

    Farooq said:

    Farooq said:
    But with theirs on the way up and ours on the way down.

    Thank goodness we resisted the siren call to use masks and other NPIs etc during the summer and autumn.
    Theirs have been rising and ours have been falling is fairer. If you want to make predictions about where case numbers are going, that's your business. I won't follow you there.
    All you need to remember is that the high number of Covid cases and deaths in the UK is completely immaterial; it's the end of lockdown that counts. But in countries other than the UK, high numbers of cases and deaths are a sign of doom and massive governmental incompetence. That's right, isn't it?
    Re: other countries, high numbers of cases and deaths may be an indication of bad decision-making if accompanied by more draconian measures than us. Worst of both worlds sort of thing.
    In terms of Denmark v the UK, here's the stringency index over time, that shows that most of the time, the UK has had more stringent restrictions than Denmark: https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/covid-stringency-index?tab=chart&country=GBR~DNK
    The UK has no legal restrictions currently so why are they rating the UK as a 41.2 at the moment?

    Though I see its based upon the 'strictest sub-region' so that would include any restrictions by Holyrood etc as "UK".
    I was wrong to use the word restrictions. It's wider than just prohibitions.
    Additional: I've been digging into the data a little and it's troubling. The current value for face coverings in England is listed as "2". In Scotland it's "3". The levels are:
    0- No policy
    1- Recommended
    2- Required in some specified shared/public spaces outside the home with other people present, or some situations when social distancing not possible
    3- Required in all shared/public spaces outside the home with other people present or all situations when social distancing not possible

    This seems wrong, to me. As I understand it, the mask level should be at most "1" for England.

    I withdraw any point I have made about the stringency index until and unless I find out that this is my mistake and not theirs.
    Face masks are required on public transport in England so that would fit with being a 2.

    I opened your document but couldn't work out where to go for the "executive summary".

    Seems a lot in there.
    No they're not.

    Face masks are not legally required in public transport in England. TFL don't make the law.

    I believe they are legally required in care homes and some other healthcare settings though.
    They should be compulsory on the tube and enforced by the law rather than tfl's ire (no fault of theirs)
    Why?

    No they shouldn't. Just because TFL have overreached doesn't mean it should be the law.
    Why? - The tube is a special case of ridiculously close contact in an unventilated space.
    So what?

    If people choose to wear a mask then, that's their choice. If they don't, ditto. That's the law as it is and as it should be.

    The guidance to wear masks should be dropped.
    It's one of the most likely places for infection. It's an easy line to draw too. Until the spring we should wear masks where we can and where it's sensible. It's really not so tough.
    It really is.

    Stopping infection isn't something we should be doing with NPIs. That's last year's policy.

    We have PIs now. Its time to live with the fact that infections happen, not try to prevent them.
    Good god. Work with what I've said rather than what you want to think I've said.
    Did you say that they should be mandated by law to prevent infections?

    The law shouldn't be seeking to prevent infections in the community. People should be getting vaccinated.
  • Roger said:

    I'm in Aberdeen at the moment and came across someone who went to school with a prominent member of the cabinet. He expressed surprise (and I quote) "that it was so little known he was a back passage storm trooper"

    I think his wife now knows hence her scathing attacks on him in her Daily Mail columns.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,124
    JBriskin3 said:

    kinabalu said:

    JBriskin3 said:

    kinabalu said:

    isam said:

    kinabalu said:

    isam said:

    kinabalu said:

    TOPPING said:



    kinabalu said:

    Farooq said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    I've just been Googling "Sadiq Khan" to see what he is actually *doing*

    Not much. But a few things. eg He is doing THIS

    "Sadiq Khan has unveiled £25,000 grants to help people change street names as part of a diversity campaign launched following Black Lives Matter protests.

    "The Mayor of London has announced a £1 million fund that will be shared out among community groups, including those wishing to campaign to alter potentially offensive road names.

    "Grants of up to £25,000 will support groups through all aspects of the process of changing street names, which could include enlisting consultants and compensating residents.

    "The Untold Stories fund is part of the Commission for Diversity in the Public Realm, which was established following Black Lives Matter protests to diversify artwork and statuary that came under scrutiny for commemorating figures linked to empire and slavery."

    Utterly pointless Woke bullshit, which also wastes money. Brilliant

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2021/10/21/black-boy-lane-diversity-drive-sadiq-khan-plans-25000-grants/

    And THIS:

    "London mayor Sadiq Khan has urged the government to make face coverings mandatory on public transport as the UK continues to average more than 40,000 confirmed coronavirus cases a day for over a week."

    He wants us all to mask up again. That's an inspired and innovative policy. Who saw that coming?

    https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/sadiq-khan-mandatory-face-masks-public-transport-b1947540.html

    He's just extended the ULEZ zone which at a stroke has stopped me gadding around in my big polluting Merc. Whilst I'm not his greatest fan, eg he comes over to me as a careerist, and as I say he's making me walk everywhere, it has to be noted that much of the more visceral dislike of him is driven by him being Muslim. Not you, of course, but it's undeniably in the mix. Which is disappointing to see.
    It is deniably in the mix.
    He’s just crap.

    The only person to bring up his Muslim-ness was the equally crap Zac Goldsmith.
    So iyo there are hardly any people whose dislike of him is driven by anti-Muslim prejudice? I think that's an absurdly optimistic notion. Please note I'm not in any way implying that any particular person who thinks he's rubbish is being influenced by this. It's not a smear against anybody to point out that prejudice is in the mix. Neither is it to say he isn't rubbish or some 'lefty comfort blanket' against something or other. It's just a factual comment.
    implying that any particular person who thinks he's rubbish is being influenced by this
    But if you're thinking it, I am too. I doubt we'd be the only ones.
    Ah but hang on. Take gardenwalker for eg, I am totally NOT thinking this. I must have read 1000 of his posts and not a trace of anti-muslim prejudice. Not even thinking it about leon where there has been fruitiness sometimes. Tbh it's more about where you see the quite wild-eyed stuff said about him. I think he's testified about it. He gets a lot. There, you have racism rearing its head, no question. What you also get is the slightly brighter and cagey type of racist who keeps a grip on what they say and stays carefully deniable. You know the type.
    Ah yes. The people you "just know" are racist, but haven't actually done anything racist.

    Bit like the witches. If I wasn't out, 24/7, burning them...
    LOL this is the bad old kini.

    As I noted several months ago in a post when he was flinging around accusations of racism (amended for his posts today):

    "What you have to remember is that because @kinabalu for some unknown reason is very insecure he is invested in belittling views of nationality and what it means to be British and how one should react to people who are not white working class.

    He does this because as a white working class lad made good (very good) and now moved away from his roots, he is confused about what he is supposed to think about these things. He feels he should condemn anyone who even mentions nationality or religion but has no views himself on them. He literally has no idea how to approach the idea of criticising someone who is not an "easy" target (ie WWC).

    And hence when he bumps into people, like @Leon for example, someone he believes he is far more successful and intelligent than, but someone who is far more confident in their own opinions on such to him delicate and taboo subjects, he has literally no answer."

    Holds as true today as it always has done.
    Nice couch you have, Topping. Trouble is, I almost nodded off.

    Same time next week?
    Damn unsolicited diagnoses! He’ll be devising a scoring system to rank people next
    Ah, I sense a reference to my simple yet rather sophisticated 'Class Indicator' test that you, almost alone on here, refused to take. And I could never understand why. Still, no point revisiting. The past is another country.
    Doing those kind of tests then broadcasting the results is a kind of needy vanity that I’d like to avoid. Not that I always do I suppose
    No clue why you're seeing it this way. 'Class' comes up a lot on here and I designed something neat to clarify and assist the discussions. Nothing untoward about it at all. As you'd know if you hadn't refused to co-operate.
    I want the Class test! Fire at will soldier.
    No need to test you. The result is in.
    I've made it pretty clear that I'm a DE.

    Is that what the test says?
    Yep, a 4 having rounded up. One of the clearer cut ones.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,311
    JBriskin3 said:

    I'm a male but I'm with the TERFs on this one.

    My solution would be 100pc unisex toilets - I'm always suspious that females have an easier time sniffing blow in the pub toilets.

    Equality For All.

    There's a surprise
  • . . . meanwhile, back at the ranch . . .

    Politico.com - Sunu-no: Top GOP recruit won't run for Senate
    New Hampshire Gov. Chris Sununu said Tuesday he will seek reelection, denying Republicans their top recruit of the 2022 election cycle.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,311
    IshmaelZ said:

    Roger said:

    Roger said:

    I'm in Aberdeen at the moment and came across someone who went to school with a prominent member of the cabinet. He expressed surprise (and I quote) "that it was so little known he was a back passage storm trooper"

    I was just taken by the expression which I haven't heard before. It would be tasteless to name names.
    quite so. Could be any of the Aberdonians in the Cabinet.
    Sheep out of favour in Aberdeen nowadays then
  • TimTTimT Posts: 6,468

    TimT said:

    TimT said:

    TimS said:

    Selebian said:

    TimT said:

    Selebian said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Do you know what I think has been the biggest change in politics in recent years? The fact that the left have become so much more censorious and authoritarian than they used to be. 20 or 30 years ago they were significantly less so than people from other parties; now they're probably more so. For instance, when you hear someone calling for a long prison sentence these days, they're almost as likely to be from the left as the right.

    I think this is right, up to a point. I think that if you look at opinion surveys you will still find that people on the left are more libertarian than those on the right. But I think you are right that there has been a rise in authoritarianism on the left. It's probably exaggerated by e.g. Twitter.
    I think in part it is a generational thing, where millenials tend to be quite authoritarian, maybe because they have grown up in a more permissive environment and so haven't had to push back against people telling them what they can and can't do. Incidentally I suspect that millenials will become very right wing like baby boomers have as they age, while gen x will remain instinctively liberal but apathetic. Millenials have the same "it's all about me" attitude as the baby boomers. And they will be able to afford a house eventually.
    You're either self-damning or older than I thought - I'm a millenial and I'm almost 40. The youngest millenials are ~25. Do you really think that group is authoritarian? Gen Z maybe (kids today...) :wink:

    (I'd always assumed I was Gen X until someone on here posted the definitions)
    I'd always assume I was post-boomer. But apparently I am not.
    Do you still like to think "Gen X will continue to be a beacon of post-modern cynicism, pragmatic centrism and a bastion of gentle apathy"? Or slightly more boomer-sympathetic now? :wink:

    I've had a lot more time for millenials since I discovered I was one!
    There's TimT, and there's TimS. TimS is a late GenXer in his mid 40s living in SE London (but not the same person as OnlyLivingBoy) who considers GenX are beacons of post-modern cynicism. TimT appears to be an early GenXer or late boomer.

    Fun fact: the name Tim fell off a cliff of popularity in the mid 90s, coinciding with the prominence of Harry Enfield's Tim Nice but Dim character.
    My screen name here used to be "Timothy (likes zebras)".

    For as long as I could remember I'd always gone as "Tim", but when I was 23 my mother made a point of telling me that she'd chosen the name Timothy for me and not Tim. I've been trying out Timothy instead, but people will always ask if they can call me Tim, and I don't really care.
    My family only call me Timothy when they are annoyed with me. And Martin Timothy when they are really, really annoyed.
    Actually my Dad only ever users Timothy when he is annoyed at me. My theory is that a three-syllable name is ideal for expressing annoyance as you can build up to a higher pitch of emphasis for the final syllable.

    I didn't realise this until after I chose a two-syllable name for my daughter though.
    Our daughter's name is monosyllabic. Most unsatisfactory ...
    Mon for short?
    She's not Scottish, you know!
  • JBriskin3JBriskin3 Posts: 1,254
    malcolmg said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Roger said:

    Roger said:

    I'm in Aberdeen at the moment and came across someone who went to school with a prominent member of the cabinet. He expressed surprise (and I quote) "that it was so little known he was a back passage storm trooper"

    I was just taken by the expression which I haven't heard before. It would be tasteless to name names.
    quite so. Could be any of the Aberdonians in the Cabinet.
    Sheep out of favour in Aberdeen nowadays then
    We're just Sheepshagging Bastards :smile: #StandFree
  • BigRichBigRich Posts: 3,492

    Aimless anecdote:

    We went into Salisbury shopping today. It was... surprsingly... busy!

    Lots of shoppers and full cafes, especially those with street seating.

    60-70% mask wearing in shops I'd say.

    Salisbury has had a wretched few years and it is a much underrated place, so it was good to see it looking so lively today.

    Report ends.

    I understand the Cathedral is popular with Russian Tourists'.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 23,134
    Leon said:

    Farooq said:

    TOPPING said:

    Farooq said:

    Farooq said:

    Farooq said:

    Stocky said:

    Farooq said:

    Farooq said:
    But with theirs on the way up and ours on the way down.

    Thank goodness we resisted the siren call to use masks and other NPIs etc during the summer and autumn.
    Theirs have been rising and ours have been falling is fairer. If you want to make predictions about where case numbers are going, that's your business. I won't follow you there.
    All you need to remember is that the high number of Covid cases and deaths in the UK is completely immaterial; it's the end of lockdown that counts. But in countries other than the UK, high numbers of cases and deaths are a sign of doom and massive governmental incompetence. That's right, isn't it?
    Re: other countries, high numbers of cases and deaths may be an indication of bad decision-making if accompanied by more draconian measures than us. Worst of both worlds sort of thing.
    In terms of Denmark v the UK, here's the stringency index over time, that shows that most of the time, the UK has had more stringent restrictions than Denmark: https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/covid-stringency-index?tab=chart&country=GBR~DNK
    The UK has no legal restrictions currently so why are they rating the UK as a 41.2 at the moment?

    Though I see its based upon the 'strictest sub-region' so that would include any restrictions by Holyrood etc as "UK".
    I was wrong to use the word restrictions. It's wider than just prohibitions.
    Additional: I've been digging into the data a little and it's troubling. The current value for face coverings in England is listed as "2". In Scotland it's "3". The levels are:
    0- No policy
    1- Recommended
    2- Required in some specified shared/public spaces outside the home with other people present, or some situations when social distancing not possible
    3- Required in all shared/public spaces outside the home with other people present or all situations when social distancing not possible

    This seems wrong, to me. As I understand it, the mask level should be at most "1" for England.

    I withdraw any point I have made about the stringency index until and unless I find out that this is my mistake and not theirs.
    Face masks are required on public transport in England so that would fit with being a 2.

    I opened your document but couldn't work out where to go for the "executive summary".

    Seems a lot in there.
    Is that right?
    https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/face-coverings-when-to-wear-one-and-how-to-make-your-own/face-coverings-when-to-wear-one-and-how-to-make-your-own
    From 19 July 2021, there is no longer a legal requirement to wear face coverings in indoor settings or on public transport.

    As for the link I sent before... I don't know what to say. There's plenty of stuff in there including a paper exploring the methodology and links to the data in a github repo. I'm sorry it's not in a more digestible format for you but sometimes it's worth digging a little deeper, as I've just been reminded by checking the face coverings score.
    Tfl DOES require masks

    https://tfl.gov.uk/campaign/face-coverings

    However I wonder what is the legal basis for this. It's notable they don't mention fines, so maybe this is a bit of a charade, and they actually don't have the power to enforce this?

    The best characterisation of mask policy in England is "1 - Recommended"
    They could do it via Conditions of Travel.

    That's (or was) the approach for banning photography.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,817
    JBriskin3 said:

    Roger said:

    I'm in Aberdeen at the moment and came across someone who went to school with a prominent member of the cabinet. He expressed surprise (and I quote) "that it was so little known he was a back passage storm trooper"

    You can only be referncing Gove
    The school doesn't have to be Aberdeen. Quite a lot of people in Aberdeen were educated elsewhere (labour mobility, or being sent to boarding school).
  • Roger said:

    Roger said:

    I'm in Aberdeen at the moment and came across someone who went to school with a prominent member of the cabinet. He expressed surprise (and I quote) "that it was so little known he was a back passage storm trooper"

    I was just taken by the expression which I haven't heard before. It would be tasteless to name names.
    Without wishing to sound "woke", I am always slightly amused at the attempts at witty derogatory terminology for gay people by the rabidly homophobic. It merely highlights their own very vanilla, dull sex lives.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,817
    malcolmg said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Roger said:

    Roger said:

    I'm in Aberdeen at the moment and came across someone who went to school with a prominent member of the cabinet. He expressed surprise (and I quote) "that it was so little known he was a back passage storm trooper"

    I was just taken by the expression which I haven't heard before. It would be tasteless to name names.
    quite so. Could be any of the Aberdonians in the Cabinet.
    Sheep out of favour in Aberdeen nowadays then
    Not many sheep in Westminster or Whitehall, though I expect there are some in the children's part of London Zoo.
  • JBriskin3JBriskin3 Posts: 1,254
    Carnyx said:

    JBriskin3 said:

    Roger said:

    I'm in Aberdeen at the moment and came across someone who went to school with a prominent member of the cabinet. He expressed surprise (and I quote) "that it was so little known he was a back passage storm trooper"

    You can only be referncing Gove
    The school doesn't have to be Aberdeen. Quite a lot of people in Aberdeen were educated elsewhere (labour mobility, or being sent to boarding school).
    The only other prominent Aberdonian politician is Theresa (unfortnately I can't remember the surname)

    RIP Theresa
  • malcolmg said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Roger said:

    Roger said:

    I'm in Aberdeen at the moment and came across someone who went to school with a prominent member of the cabinet. He expressed surprise (and I quote) "that it was so little known he was a back passage storm trooper"

    I was just taken by the expression which I haven't heard before. It would be tasteless to name names.
    quite so. Could be any of the Aberdonians in the Cabinet.
    Sheep out of favour in Aberdeen nowadays then
    Hang on, Aberdeen is in Wales? I didn't realise that until today.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,817
    JBriskin3 said:

    Carnyx said:

    JBriskin3 said:

    Roger said:

    I'm in Aberdeen at the moment and came across someone who went to school with a prominent member of the cabinet. He expressed surprise (and I quote) "that it was so little known he was a back passage storm trooper"

    You can only be referncing Gove
    The school doesn't have to be Aberdeen. Quite a lot of people in Aberdeen were educated elsewhere (labour mobility, or being sent to boarding school).
    The only other prominent Aberdonian politician is Theresa (unfortnately I can't remember the surname)

    RIP Theresa
    You're not getting my point - which is that the minister could have been living and/or educated somewhere completely different from Aberdeen.
  • RogerRoger Posts: 19,900
    JBriskin3 said:

    Roger said:

    Roger said:

    I'm in Aberdeen at the moment and came across someone who went to school with a prominent member of the cabinet. He expressed surprise (and I quote) "that it was so little known he was a back passage storm trooper"

    You just happened to.meet this person and he decided to tell you this unprompted.. ? Liklihood of this 0%

    I am staying with a relative in Aberdeen who had some friends over. It's quite common I think you'll find!
    I'll meet you for a pint in The White Cockade if you want.
    Is that in Aberdeen? I don't know the place too well. I'm in Forest Drive. We went to Trump's golf course this morning.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,817
    edited November 2021

    malcolmg said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Roger said:

    Roger said:

    I'm in Aberdeen at the moment and came across someone who went to school with a prominent member of the cabinet. He expressed surprise (and I quote) "that it was so little known he was a back passage storm trooper"

    I was just taken by the expression which I haven't heard before. It would be tasteless to name names.
    quite so. Could be any of the Aberdonians in the Cabinet.
    Sheep out of favour in Aberdeen nowadays then
    Hang on, Aberdeen is in Wales? I didn't realise that until today.
    There's rather more sheep country in the Isles of Britain and Ireland than there is urban territory.
  • JBriskin3JBriskin3 Posts: 1,254
    Carnyx said:

    JBriskin3 said:

    Carnyx said:

    JBriskin3 said:

    Roger said:

    I'm in Aberdeen at the moment and came across someone who went to school with a prominent member of the cabinet. He expressed surprise (and I quote) "that it was so little known he was a back passage storm trooper"

    You can only be referncing Gove
    The school doesn't have to be Aberdeen. Quite a lot of people in Aberdeen were educated elsewhere (labour mobility, or being sent to boarding school).
    The only other prominent Aberdonian politician is Theresa (unfortnately I can't remember the surname)

    RIP Theresa
    You're not getting my point - which is that the minister could have been living and/or educated somewhere completely different from Aberdeen.
    Yeah I was hoping someone could give me the surname-

    It just came to me! Tessa Jowell
  • MattWMattW Posts: 23,134
    edited November 2021

    Does he think Macron should be prosecuted?

    https://www.cnbc.com/2021/11/09/covid-vaccines-pfizer-ceo-says-people-who-spread-misinformation-on-shots-are-criminals.html

    Pfizer CEO says people who spread misinformation on Covid vaccines are ‘criminals’

    He's a French President, prosecution is pretty much mandatory.
    But not until he loses an Election.

    That's how Chirac dodged it for (presumably) 14 years.

    Euro Twitter is still arguing that jail sentences for 2 from 3 shows that UK is more corrupt because we haven't locked up any PMs.
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 21,298
    JBriskin3 said:

    Carnyx said:

    JBriskin3 said:

    Carnyx said:

    JBriskin3 said:

    Roger said:

    I'm in Aberdeen at the moment and came across someone who went to school with a prominent member of the cabinet. He expressed surprise (and I quote) "that it was so little known he was a back passage storm trooper"

    You can only be referncing Gove
    The school doesn't have to be Aberdeen. Quite a lot of people in Aberdeen were educated elsewhere (labour mobility, or being sent to boarding school).
    The only other prominent Aberdonian politician is Theresa (unfortnately I can't remember the surname)

    RIP Theresa
    You're not getting my point - which is that the minister could have been living and/or educated somewhere completely different from Aberdeen.
    Yeah I was hoping someone could give me the surname-

    It just came to me! Tessa Jowell
    Tessa Jowell was gay?
    Bloody hell, she kept that quiet.
This discussion has been closed.