Mr. Gate, it wasn't a problem for me, but migration played large in the campaign so a single market rejoining argument might be tricky. It's interesting to consider whether that'd be seen as easier or harder to win than a full-blown rejoin.
Glad to see Major speaking up, whilst Boris’ supporters here circle the wagons.
Yes but remember we support Brexit and that isn't going to change
Brexit trumps everything for you, yes we know.
It does for very many and you should ask why no UK party, ex the SNP and Plaid, support rejoining, unless of course the Lib Dems finally discover honesty and say they will campaign to rejoin, not some silly fudge
Why? Brexit isn’t the key issue for me.
It makes everything a bit harder than it was before, we’re all a bit poorer and seems to be used by its supporters to justify/excuse/deflect from all sorts of poor practices like we saw this week.
Beyond that 🤷♀️
Johnson understands that the British voter does not do gratitude; so having got Brexit 'done' (for low values of done) is not going to be enough at the next GE. The electoral strategy is going to be to depict the oppostion as wanting to reverse Brexit and that it is only secure with the tories.
You can see tories on here already starting to push this line.
Yeah, Boris and his minions want the Brexit wars to continue forever.
I would suggest many on the remain side are doing a good job on that, ensuring that by not accepting we have left it continues ad nfinitum
Can you name any Remainers who don’t accept we have left?
Glad to see Major speaking up, whilst Boris’ supporters here circle the wagons.
Yes but remember we support Brexit and that isn't going to change
Brexit trumps everything for you, yes we know.
It does for very many and you should ask why no UK party, ex the SNP and Plaid, support rejoining, unless of course the Lib Dems finally discover honesty and say they will campaign to rejoin, not some silly fudge
Why? Brexit isn’t the key issue for me.
It makes everything a bit harder than it was before, we’re all a bit poorer and seems to be used by its supporters to justify/excuse/deflect from all sorts of poor practices like we saw this week.
Beyond that 🤷♀️
Johnson understands that the British voter does not do gratitude; so having got Brexit 'done' (for low values of done) is not going to be enough at the next GE. The electoral strategy is going to be to depict the oppostion as wanting to reverse Brexit and that it is only secure with the tories.
You can see tories on here already starting to push this line.
Fair comment and GE24 will be a moment when each party has to outline its strategy on Europe
For me I could vote to rejoin the single market but will not vote for any party who wants to rejoin or rejoin in a disingenuous way
“Rejoin the single market” will be framed as “rejoining in a disingenuous way” by the frothers
To clarify the lib dems position is to rejoin by stealth and not honestly stating it from day one ( disingenuous)
It comes to something when John Major has become, de facto, the leader of the opposition. BBC Radio 4, 8.10 am.
Not so fast!
The Opposition including (late in the day, Starmer) have had a good and effective week. Hat tip in particular to Rayner and Lady Fugee.
The last week has seen multiple Labour voices attacking the government, rather than each other. It's been coherent, and coherence works.
It's not rocket science, but it's shocking how rare it has been in recent years.
I sort of agree with that, but I'd also argue (and have done for the last 18 months) that it's been hard for Labour to get a hearing since Starmer was elected because of Covid dominating absolutely everything. Nobody was much interested in anything else. Now that Covid is taking more of a backseat and Parliament is back to its former glory(!), there's more scope for opposition voices to be heard.
And, of course, it helps that we have a government mired in sleaze.
Glad to see Major speaking up, whilst Boris’ supporters here circle the wagons.
Yes but remember we support Brexit and that isn't going to change
Brexit trumps everything for you, yes we know.
It does for very many and you should ask why no UK party, ex the SNP and Plaid, support rejoining, unless of course the Lib Dems finally discover honesty and say they will campaign to rejoin, not some silly fudge
Why? Brexit isn’t the key issue for me.
It makes everything a bit harder than it was before, we’re all a bit poorer and seems to be used by its supporters to justify/excuse/deflect from all sorts of poor practices like we saw this week.
Beyond that 🤷♀️
Johnson understands that the British voter does not do gratitude; so having got Brexit 'done' (for low values of done) is not going to be enough at the next GE. The electoral strategy is going to be to depict the oppostion as wanting to reverse Brexit and that it is only secure with the tories.
You can see tories on here already starting to push this line.
Fair comment and GE24 will be a moment when each party has to outline its strategy on Europe
For me I could vote to rejoin the single market but will not vote for any party who wants to rejoin or rejoin in a disingenuous way
Labour merely needs to be less Europhobic than the Johnson and Frost show to get most Remainers on side - something like "We will not try to rejoin, but we will seek a sensible trading agreement with our neighbours with common standards to eliminate the border issue" seems a defensible, boringly reasonable position that won't trigger Red Wall fury.
Glad to see Major speaking up, whilst Boris’ supporters here circle the wagons.
Yes but remember we support Brexit and that isn't going to change
Brexit trumps everything for you, yes we know.
It does for very many and you should ask why no UK party, ex the SNP and Plaid, support rejoining, unless of course the Lib Dems finally discover honesty and say they will campaign to rejoin, not some silly fudge
Why? Brexit isn’t the key issue for me.
It makes everything a bit harder than it was before, we’re all a bit poorer and seems to be used by its supporters to justify/excuse/deflect from all sorts of poor practices like we saw this week.
Beyond that 🤷♀️
Johnson understands that the British voter does not do gratitude; so having got Brexit 'done' (for low values of done) is not going to be enough at the next GE. The electoral strategy is going to be to depict the oppostion as wanting to reverse Brexit and that it is only secure with the tories.
You can see tories on here already starting to push this line.
Yeah, Boris and his minions want the Brexit wars to continue forever.
I would suggest many on the remain side are doing a good job on that, ensuring that by not accepting we have left it continues ad nfinitum
You regard any criticism of Brexit as “not accepting we’ve left” to be fair
Big G didn’t even vote for Brexit. It is not entirely clear how far down the road to Damascus he is.
Glad to see Major speaking up, whilst Boris’ supporters here circle the wagons.
Yes but remember we support Brexit and that isn't going to change
Brexit trumps everything for you, yes we know.
It does for very many and you should ask why no UK party, ex the SNP and Plaid, support rejoining, unless of course the Lib Dems finally discover honesty and say they will campaign to rejoin, not some silly fudge
Why? Brexit isn’t the key issue for me.
It makes everything a bit harder than it was before, we’re all a bit poorer and seems to be used by its supporters to justify/excuse/deflect from all sorts of poor practices like we saw this week.
Beyond that 🤷♀️
Johnson understands that the British voter does not do gratitude; so having got Brexit 'done' (for low values of done) is not going to be enough at the next GE. The electoral strategy is going to be to depict the oppostion as wanting to reverse Brexit and that it is only secure with the tories.
You can see tories on here already starting to push this line.
Fair comment and GE24 will be a moment when each party has to outline its strategy on Europe
For me I could vote to rejoin the single market but will not vote for any party who wants to rejoin or rejoin in a disingenuous way
How do you distinguish between rejoin the SM and a disingenuous first step to rejoining the EU?
The poll in today's mail on which leader is sleazy Boris beats Starmer 53%/20%
However, paradoxically on who is doing the better job overall he wins 41% too 27%
The mail put this down to it is already being accepted about Boris and sleaze
What a strange world we live in, but maybe labour should wonder why Starmer is not cutting through
That sort of polling makes me laugh.
It will just make the Boris haters even more mad.. consumed by hate rather than doing something about it.
The Tories are the only option right now, dislikeable as they are. Labour are a shambles and with "Scumspeak" Rayner about, its not going to change anytime soon. What are Labour doing about making themselves electable? SFA IMHO.
Glad to see Major speaking up, whilst Boris’ supporters here circle the wagons.
Yes but remember we support Brexit and that isn't going to change
Brexit trumps everything for you, yes we know.
It does for very many and you should ask why no UK party, ex the SNP and Plaid, support rejoining, unless of course the Lib Dems finally discover honesty and say they will campaign to rejoin, not some silly fudge
Why? Brexit isn’t the key issue for me.
It makes everything a bit harder than it was before, we’re all a bit poorer and seems to be used by its supporters to justify/excuse/deflect from all sorts of poor practices like we saw this week.
Beyond that 🤷♀️
Johnson understands that the British voter does not do gratitude; so having got Brexit 'done' (for low values of done) is not going to be enough at the next GE. The electoral strategy is going to be to depict the oppostion as wanting to reverse Brexit and that it is only secure with the tories.
You can see tories on here already starting to push this line.
Fair comment and GE24 will be a moment when each party has to outline its strategy on Europe
For me I could vote to rejoin the single market but will not vote for any party who wants to rejoin or rejoin in a disingenuous way
How do you distinguish between rejoin the SM and a disingenuous first step to rejoining the EU?
Glad to see Major speaking up, whilst Boris’ supporters here circle the wagons.
Yes but remember we support Brexit and that isn't going to change
Brexit trumps everything for you, yes we know.
It does for very many and you should ask why no UK party, ex the SNP and Plaid, support rejoining, unless of course the Lib Dems finally discover honesty and say they will campaign to rejoin, not some silly fudge
Why? Brexit isn’t the key issue for me.
It makes everything a bit harder than it was before, we’re all a bit poorer and seems to be used by its supporters to justify/excuse/deflect from all sorts of poor practices like we saw this week.
Beyond that 🤷♀️
Johnson understands that the British voter does not do gratitude; so having got Brexit 'done' (for low values of done) is not going to be enough at the next GE. The electoral strategy is going to be to depict the oppostion as wanting to reverse Brexit and that it is only secure with the tories.
You can see tories on here already starting to push this line.
Yeah, Boris and his minions want the Brexit wars to continue forever.
I would suggest many on the remain side are doing a good job on that, ensuring that by not accepting we have left it continues ad nfinitum
You regard any criticism of Brexit as “not accepting we’ve left” to be fair
Big G didn’t even vote for Brexit. It is not entirely clear how far down the road to Damascus he is.
Glad to see Major speaking up, whilst Boris’ supporters here circle the wagons.
Yes but remember we support Brexit and that isn't going to change
Brexit trumps everything for you, yes we know.
It does for very many and you should ask why no UK party, ex the SNP and Plaid, support rejoining, unless of course the Lib Dems finally discover honesty and say they will campaign to rejoin, not some silly fudge
Why? Brexit isn’t the key issue for me.
It makes everything a bit harder than it was before, we’re all a bit poorer and seems to be used by its supporters to justify/excuse/deflect from all sorts of poor practices like we saw this week.
Beyond that 🤷♀️
Johnson understands that the British voter does not do gratitude; so having got Brexit 'done' (for low values of done) is not going to be enough at the next GE. The electoral strategy is going to be to depict the oppostion as wanting to reverse Brexit and that it is only secure with the tories.
You can see tories on here already starting to push this line.
Fair comment and GE24 will be a moment when each party has to outline its strategy on Europe
For me I could vote to rejoin the single market but will not vote for any party who wants to rejoin or rejoin in a disingenuous way
How do you distinguish between rejoin the SM and a disingenuous first step to rejoining the EU?
Lib dems position
What precisely is disingenuous about the Lib Dem position?
(I’m not even sure I know what it is at present, although of course I expect they are very open to rejoining while aware this is unlikely any time soon).
Glad to see Major speaking up, whilst Boris’ supporters here circle the wagons.
Yes but remember we support Brexit and that isn't going to change
Brexit trumps everything for you, yes we know.
It does for very many and you should ask why no UK party, ex the SNP and Plaid, support rejoining, unless of course the Lib Dems finally discover honesty and say they will campaign to rejoin, not some silly fudge
Why? Brexit isn’t the key issue for me.
It makes everything a bit harder than it was before, we’re all a bit poorer and seems to be used by its supporters to justify/excuse/deflect from all sorts of poor practices like we saw this week.
Beyond that 🤷♀️
Johnson understands that the British voter does not do gratitude; so having got Brexit 'done' (for low values of done) is not going to be enough at the next GE. The electoral strategy is going to be to depict the oppostion as wanting to reverse Brexit and that it is only secure with the tories.
You can see tories on here already starting to push this line.
Yeah, Boris and his minions want the Brexit wars to continue forever.
I would suggest many on the remain side are doing a good job on that, ensuring that by not accepting we have left it continues ad nfinitum
But, once again, you're on here suggesting a party you won't vote for should adopt a policy you don't like which you also think will be unpopular. It's very strange behaviour, G.
Not really
We all want honesty in politics and the lib dems policy is disingenuous as they want to rejoin
Be honest and say so, they would take quite some seats down south
Glad to see Major speaking up, whilst Boris’ supporters here circle the wagons.
Yes but remember we support Brexit and that isn't going to change
Brexit trumps everything for you, yes we know.
It does for very many and you should ask why no UK party, ex the SNP and Plaid, support rejoining, unless of course the Lib Dems finally discover honesty and say they will campaign to rejoin, not some silly fudge
Why? Brexit isn’t the key issue for me.
It makes everything a bit harder than it was before, we’re all a bit poorer and seems to be used by its supporters to justify/excuse/deflect from all sorts of poor practices like we saw this week.
Beyond that 🤷♀️
Johnson understands that the British voter does not do gratitude; so having got Brexit 'done' (for low values of done) is not going to be enough at the next GE. The electoral strategy is going to be to depict the oppostion as wanting to reverse Brexit and that it is only secure with the tories.
You can see tories on here already starting to push this line.
Yeah, Boris and his minions want the Brexit wars to continue forever.
I would suggest many on the remain side are doing a good job on that, ensuring that by not accepting we have left it continues ad nfinitum
Can you name any Remainers who don’t accept we have left?
Or are they just folk devils of your imagination?
I 'accept' that we've left. For the moment. However I would certainly vote to rejoin at the first available opportunity, although I think I might want a bit of adjustment around the edges of Free Movement.
I would suggest many on the remain side are doing a good job on that, ensuring that by not accepting we have left it continues ad nfinitum
Point it out that it is a bad idea being poorly executed by charlatans, narcissists and fools is not the same thing as not 'accepting' it.
It's another one of those British secular religions isn't it, like a right wing version of the adulation of the NHS. Any suggestion the relationship with the EU is not going completely swimmingly or - heaven forfend - could actually be managed better, is blasphemy. Just like any suggestion we might want to change certain things about how healthcare is administered in the UK is "privatisation by stealth". Same syndrome.
It suits the Tories to have created this electoral golden calf of course, though I'd say it has nowhere near the same religious power the NHS has managed to accumulate.
Glad to see Major speaking up, whilst Boris’ supporters here circle the wagons.
Yes but remember we support Brexit and that isn't going to change
Brexit trumps everything for you, yes we know.
It does for very many and you should ask why no UK party, ex the SNP and Plaid, support rejoining, unless of course the Lib Dems finally discover honesty and say they will campaign to rejoin, not some silly fudge
Why? Brexit isn’t the key issue for me.
It makes everything a bit harder than it was before, we’re all a bit poorer and seems to be used by its supporters to justify/excuse/deflect from all sorts of poor practices like we saw this week.
Beyond that 🤷♀️
Johnson understands that the British voter does not do gratitude; so having got Brexit 'done' (for low values of done) is not going to be enough at the next GE. The electoral strategy is going to be to depict the oppostion as wanting to reverse Brexit and that it is only secure with the tories.
You can see tories on here already starting to push this line.
Fair comment and GE24 will be a moment when each party has to outline its strategy on Europe
For me I could vote to rejoin the single market but will not vote for any party who wants to rejoin or rejoin in a disingenuous way
“Rejoin the single market” will be framed as “rejoining in a disingenuous way” by the frothers
To clarify the lib dems position is to rejoin by stealth and not honestly stating it from day one ( disingenuous)
That's absolutely impossible. Rejoining would mean applying and would necessarily be a very public and drawn out negotiation. Whole chapters of accession criteria would need to be gone through and the negotiations wouldn't even start until all 27 EU countries agreed, which would mean debates in all 27 EU countries' parliaments. And of course, the European Parliament itself would need to agree.
The idea that there is a "rejoin by stealth" can only really be believed if you have zero understanding of the process.
Glad to see Major speaking up, whilst Boris’ supporters here circle the wagons.
Yes but remember we support Brexit and that isn't going to change
Brexit trumps everything for you, yes we know.
It does for very many and you should ask why no UK party, ex the SNP and Plaid, support rejoining, unless of course the Lib Dems finally discover honesty and say they will campaign to rejoin, not some silly fudge
Why? Brexit isn’t the key issue for me.
It makes everything a bit harder than it was before, we’re all a bit poorer and seems to be used by its supporters to justify/excuse/deflect from all sorts of poor practices like we saw this week.
Beyond that 🤷♀️
Johnson understands that the British voter does not do gratitude; so having got Brexit 'done' (for low values of done) is not going to be enough at the next GE. The electoral strategy is going to be to depict the oppostion as wanting to reverse Brexit and that it is only secure with the tories.
You can see tories on here already starting to push this line.
Yeah, Boris and his minions want the Brexit wars to continue forever.
I would suggest many on the remain side are doing a good job on that, ensuring that by not accepting we have left it continues ad nfinitum
You regard any criticism of Brexit as “not accepting we’ve left” to be fair
It depends where it is coming from
FBPE and similar do not accept we have left, but it is not perfect and needs improving while remaining outside the EU
King Cole, a campaign to shift benefits to be contributory (or even residence based but requiring X years legal residence) would be a great way to defang migration/free movement from a pro-EU perspective.
Glad to see Major speaking up, whilst Boris’ supporters here circle the wagons.
Yes but remember we support Brexit and that isn't going to change
Brexit trumps everything for you, yes we know.
It does for very many and you should ask why no UK party, ex the SNP and Plaid, support rejoining, unless of course the Lib Dems finally discover honesty and say they will campaign to rejoin, not some silly fudge
Why? Brexit isn’t the key issue for me.
It makes everything a bit harder than it was before, we’re all a bit poorer and seems to be used by its supporters to justify/excuse/deflect from all sorts of poor practices like we saw this week.
Beyond that 🤷♀️
Johnson understands that the British voter does not do gratitude; so having got Brexit 'done' (for low values of done) is not going to be enough at the next GE. The electoral strategy is going to be to depict the oppostion as wanting to reverse Brexit and that it is only secure with the tories.
You can see tories on here already starting to push this line.
Yeah, Boris and his minions want the Brexit wars to continue forever.
I would suggest many on the remain side are doing a good job on that, ensuring that by not accepting we have left it continues ad nfinitum
But, once again, you're on here suggesting a party you won't vote for should adopt a policy you don't like which you also think will be unpopular. It's very strange behaviour, G.
Not really
We all want honesty in politics and the Tories' policy is disingenuous as they want to privatise the NHS
Be honest and say so, they would take quite some seats down south
Glad to see Major speaking up, whilst Boris’ supporters here circle the wagons.
Yes but remember we support Brexit and that isn't going to change
Brexit trumps everything for you, yes we know.
It does for very many and you should ask why no UK party, ex the SNP and Plaid, support rejoining, unless of course the Lib Dems finally discover honesty and say they will campaign to rejoin, not some silly fudge
Why? Brexit isn’t the key issue for me.
It makes everything a bit harder than it was before, we’re all a bit poorer and seems to be used by its supporters to justify/excuse/deflect from all sorts of poor practices like we saw this week.
Beyond that 🤷♀️
Johnson understands that the British voter does not do gratitude; so having got Brexit 'done' (for low values of done) is not going to be enough at the next GE. The electoral strategy is going to be to depict the oppostion as wanting to reverse Brexit and that it is only secure with the tories.
You can see tories on here already starting to push this line.
Yeah, Boris and his minions want the Brexit wars to continue forever.
I would suggest many on the remain side are doing a good job on that, ensuring that by not accepting we have left it continues ad nfinitum
But, once again, you're on here suggesting a party you won't vote for should adopt a policy you don't like which you also think will be unpopular. It's very strange behaviour, G.
Not really
We all want honesty in politics and the lib dems policy is disingenuous as they want to rejoin
Be honest and say so, they would take quite some seats down south
The dishonesty sadly is with Brexiters.
Once they realise that Brexit is a damaging turd which needs to be mitigated against, we can all move forward.
Glad to see Major speaking up, whilst Boris’ supporters here circle the wagons.
Yes but remember we support Brexit and that isn't going to change
Brexit trumps everything for you, yes we know.
It does for very many and you should ask why no UK party, ex the SNP and Plaid, support rejoining, unless of course the Lib Dems finally discover honesty and say they will campaign to rejoin, not some silly fudge
Why? Brexit isn’t the key issue for me.
It makes everything a bit harder than it was before, we’re all a bit poorer and seems to be used by its supporters to justify/excuse/deflect from all sorts of poor practices like we saw this week.
Beyond that 🤷♀️
Johnson understands that the British voter does not do gratitude; so having got Brexit 'done' (for low values of done) is not going to be enough at the next GE. The electoral strategy is going to be to depict the oppostion as wanting to reverse Brexit and that it is only secure with the tories.
You can see tories on here already starting to push this line.
Fair comment and GE24 will be a moment when each party has to outline its strategy on Europe
For me I could vote to rejoin the single market but will not vote for any party who wants to rejoin or rejoin in a disingenuous way
“Rejoin the single market” will be framed as “rejoining in a disingenuous way” by the frothers
To clarify the lib dems position is to rejoin by stealth and not honestly stating it from day one ( disingenuous)
That's absolutely impossible. Rejoining would mean applying and would necessarily be a very public and drawn out negotiation. Whole chapters of accession criteria would need to be gone through and the negotiations wouldn't even start until all 27 EU countries agreed, which would mean debates in all 27 EU countries' parliaments. And of course, the European Parliament itself would need to agree.
The idea that there is a "rejoin by stealth" can only really be believed if you have zero understanding of the process.
The EU aren't stupid enough to take us anyway. Who in their right mind would want to?
Glad to see Major speaking up, whilst Boris’ supporters here circle the wagons.
Yes but remember we support Brexit and that isn't going to change
Brexit trumps everything for you, yes we know.
It does for very many and you should ask why no UK party, ex the SNP and Plaid, support rejoining, unless of course the Lib Dems finally discover honesty and say they will campaign to rejoin, not some silly fudge
Why? Brexit isn’t the key issue for me.
It makes everything a bit harder than it was before, we’re all a bit poorer and seems to be used by its supporters to justify/excuse/deflect from all sorts of poor practices like we saw this week.
Beyond that 🤷♀️
Johnson understands that the British voter does not do gratitude; so having got Brexit 'done' (for low values of done) is not going to be enough at the next GE. The electoral strategy is going to be to depict the oppostion as wanting to reverse Brexit and that it is only secure with the tories.
You can see tories on here already starting to push this line.
Yeah, Boris and his minions want the Brexit wars to continue forever.
I would suggest many on the remain side are doing a good job on that, ensuring that by not accepting we have left it continues ad nfinitum
Can you name any Remainers who don’t accept we have left?
Or are they just folk devils of your imagination?
Strange question
FBPE and many others do not accept we have left, as they move heaven and earth to change back to membership
Glad to see Major speaking up, whilst Boris’ supporters here circle the wagons.
Yes but remember we support Brexit and that isn't going to change
Brexit trumps everything for you, yes we know.
It does for very many and you should ask why no UK party, ex the SNP and Plaid, support rejoining, unless of course the Lib Dems finally discover honesty and say they will campaign to rejoin, not some silly fudge
Why? Brexit isn’t the key issue for me.
It makes everything a bit harder than it was before, we’re all a bit poorer and seems to be used by its supporters to justify/excuse/deflect from all sorts of poor practices like we saw this week.
Beyond that 🤷♀️
Johnson understands that the British voter does not do gratitude; so having got Brexit 'done' (for low values of done) is not going to be enough at the next GE. The electoral strategy is going to be to depict the oppostion as wanting to reverse Brexit and that it is only secure with the tories.
You can see tories on here already starting to push this line.
Yeah, Boris and his minions want the Brexit wars to continue forever.
I would suggest many on the remain side are doing a good job on that, ensuring that by not accepting we have left it continues ad nfinitum
But, once again, you're on here suggesting a party you won't vote for should adopt a policy you don't like which you also think will be unpopular. It's very strange behaviour, G.
Not really
We all want honesty in politics and the lib dems policy is disingenuous as they want to rejoin
Be honest and say so, they would take quite some seats down south
It's not up to me to "say so" since I'm not a member of the Lib Dems, and probably won't vote for them next time. I think you're attracted to the idea of them adopting a rejoin policy because you think it'll drive votes towards the Conservatives. And you'd be right, but I think you're the one who's being sneaky here, not the Lib Dems.
Glad to see Major speaking up, whilst Boris’ supporters here circle the wagons.
Yes but remember we support Brexit and that isn't going to change
Brexit trumps everything for you, yes we know.
It does for very many and you should ask why no UK party, ex the SNP and Plaid, support rejoining, unless of course the Lib Dems finally discover honesty and say they will campaign to rejoin, not some silly fudge
Why? Brexit isn’t the key issue for me.
It makes everything a bit harder than it was before, we’re all a bit poorer and seems to be used by its supporters to justify/excuse/deflect from all sorts of poor practices like we saw this week.
Beyond that 🤷♀️
Johnson understands that the British voter does not do gratitude; so having got Brexit 'done' (for low values of done) is not going to be enough at the next GE. The electoral strategy is going to be to depict the oppostion as wanting to reverse Brexit and that it is only secure with the tories.
You can see tories on here already starting to push this line.
Fair comment and GE24 will be a moment when each party has to outline its strategy on Europe
For me I could vote to rejoin the single market but will not vote for any party who wants to rejoin or rejoin in a disingenuous way
“Rejoin the single market” will be framed as “rejoining in a disingenuous way” by the frothers
To clarify the lib dems position is to rejoin by stealth and not honestly stating it from day one ( disingenuous)
That's absolutely impossible. Rejoining would mean applying and would necessarily be a very public and drawn out negotiation. Whole chapters of accession criteria would need to be gone through and the negotiations wouldn't even start until all 27 EU countries agreed, which would mean debates in all 27 EU countries' parliaments. And of course, the European Parliament itself would need to agree.
The idea that there is a "rejoin by stealth" can only really be believed if you have zero understanding of the process.
The EU aren't stupid enough to take us anyway. Who in their right mind would want to?
Glad to see Major speaking up, whilst Boris’ supporters here circle the wagons.
Yes but remember we support Brexit and that isn't going to change
Brexit trumps everything for you, yes we know.
It does for very many and you should ask why no UK party, ex the SNP and Plaid, support rejoining, unless of course the Lib Dems finally discover honesty and say they will campaign to rejoin, not some silly fudge
Why? Brexit isn’t the key issue for me.
It makes everything a bit harder than it was before, we’re all a bit poorer and seems to be used by its supporters to justify/excuse/deflect from all sorts of poor practices like we saw this week.
Beyond that 🤷♀️
Johnson understands that the British voter does not do gratitude; so having got Brexit 'done' (for low values of done) is not going to be enough at the next GE. The electoral strategy is going to be to depict the oppostion as wanting to reverse Brexit and that it is only secure with the tories.
You can see tories on here already starting to push this line.
Fair comment and GE24 will be a moment when each party has to outline its strategy on Europe
For me I could vote to rejoin the single market but will not vote for any party who wants to rejoin or rejoin in a disingenuous way
How do you distinguish between rejoin the SM and a disingenuous first step to rejoining the EU?
Lib dems position
Look, I don't like the Lib Dems either. But if their manifesto says "In the 2023-8 Parliament, we will support returning to the Single Market and won't seek to rejoin the EU", will you oppose that because of the likelihood that they will push further sometime in the 2030's?
Democracies reverse policy all the time. It's an important way that democratic politics isn't like making babies.
Glad to see Major speaking up, whilst Boris’ supporters here circle the wagons.
Yes but remember we support Brexit and that isn't going to change
Brexit trumps everything for you, yes we know.
It does for very many and you should ask why no UK party, ex the SNP and Plaid, support rejoining, unless of course the Lib Dems finally discover honesty and say they will campaign to rejoin, not some silly fudge
Why? Brexit isn’t the key issue for me.
It makes everything a bit harder than it was before, we’re all a bit poorer and seems to be used by its supporters to justify/excuse/deflect from all sorts of poor practices like we saw this week.
Beyond that 🤷♀️
Johnson understands that the British voter does not do gratitude; so having got Brexit 'done' (for low values of done) is not going to be enough at the next GE. The electoral strategy is going to be to depict the oppostion as wanting to reverse Brexit and that it is only secure with the tories.
You can see tories on here already starting to push this line.
Yeah, Boris and his minions want the Brexit wars to continue forever.
I would suggest many on the remain side are doing a good job on that, ensuring that by not accepting we have left it continues ad nfinitum
But, once again, you're on here suggesting a party you won't vote for should adopt a policy you don't like which you also think will be unpopular. It's very strange behaviour, G.
Not really
We all want honesty in politics and the lib dems policy is disingenuous as they want to rejoin
Be honest and say so, they would take quite some seats down south
The most recent LD statement I could find, from August this year, after a quick Google, is as follows: "In a passionately argued debate last September, conference resolved that the party should support a longer-term objective of UK membership of the the EU, but we rejected a proposal for an immediate campaign to reverse Brexit, which, it was argued, was more likely to alienate voters sick of the recent history of Brexit-inspired division and bitterness. Conference also called for the closest possible alignment between the UK and the EU on trade, security, environmental, social, judicial, educational and scientific issues." A policy for which I would certainly vote.
The poll in today's mail on which leader is sleazy Boris beats Starmer 53%/20%
However, paradoxically on who is doing the better job overall he wins 41% too 27%
The mail put this down to it is already being accepted about Boris and sleaze
What a strange world we live in, but maybe labour should wonder why Starmer is not cutting through
That sort of polling makes me laugh.
It will just make the Boris haters even more mad.. consumed by hate rather than doing something about it.
The Tories are the only option right now, dislikeable as they are. Labour are a shambles and with "Scumspeak" Rayner about, its not going to change anytime soon. What are Labour doing about making themselves electable? SFA IMHO.
If Labour ever got your vote, it probably wouldn't get mine.
Glad to see Major speaking up, whilst Boris’ supporters here circle the wagons.
Yes but remember we support Brexit and that isn't going to change
Brexit trumps everything for you, yes we know.
It does for very many and you should ask why no UK party, ex the SNP and Plaid, support rejoining, unless of course the Lib Dems finally discover honesty and say they will campaign to rejoin, not some silly fudge
Why? Brexit isn’t the key issue for me.
It makes everything a bit harder than it was before, we’re all a bit poorer and seems to be used by its supporters to justify/excuse/deflect from all sorts of poor practices like we saw this week.
Beyond that 🤷♀️
Johnson understands that the British voter does not do gratitude; so having got Brexit 'done' (for low values of done) is not going to be enough at the next GE. The electoral strategy is going to be to depict the oppostion as wanting to reverse Brexit and that it is only secure with the tories.
You can see tories on here already starting to push this line.
Yeah, Boris and his minions want the Brexit wars to continue forever.
I would suggest many on the remain side are doing a good job on that, ensuring that by not accepting we have left it continues ad nfinitum
Can you name any Remainers who don’t accept we have left?
Or are they just folk devils of your imagination?
Strange question
FBPE and many others do not accept we have left, as they move heaven and earth to change back to membership
But who are “FBPE”?
I’m as Remainer as they come, in one of the Remaineryest seats in the country. I am not “FBPE” and I don’t know any.
FBPE are one or two people on Twitter, that’s it.
So if you base your worldview on reacting against FBPE, you are going to end up in some strange places.
Glad to see Major speaking up, whilst Boris’ supporters here circle the wagons.
Yes but remember we support Brexit and that isn't going to change
Brexit trumps everything for you, yes we know.
It does for very many and you should ask why no UK party, ex the SNP and Plaid, support rejoining, unless of course the Lib Dems finally discover honesty and say they will campaign to rejoin, not some silly fudge
Why? Brexit isn’t the key issue for me.
It makes everything a bit harder than it was before, we’re all a bit poorer and seems to be used by its supporters to justify/excuse/deflect from all sorts of poor practices like we saw this week.
Beyond that 🤷♀️
Johnson understands that the British voter does not do gratitude; so having got Brexit 'done' (for low values of done) is not going to be enough at the next GE. The electoral strategy is going to be to depict the oppostion as wanting to reverse Brexit and that it is only secure with the tories.
You can see tories on here already starting to push this line.
Yeah, Boris and his minions want the Brexit wars to continue forever.
I would suggest many on the remain side are doing a good job on that, ensuring that by not accepting we have left it continues ad nfinitum
But, once again, you're on here suggesting a party you won't vote for should adopt a policy you don't like which you also think will be unpopular. It's very strange behaviour, G.
Not really
We all want honesty in politics and the lib dems policy is disingenuous as they want to rejoin
Be honest and say so, they would take quite some seats down south
It's not up to me to "say so" since I'm not a member of the Lib Dems, and probably won't vote for them next time. I think you're attracted to the idea of them adopting a rejoin policy because you think it'll drive votes towards the Conservatives. And you'd be right, but I think you're the one who's being sneaky here, not the Lib Dems.
No I honestly am not
Politics needs frank and honest positions and as a side issue I think they would do quite well
Are Labour really purer than purer, white than white and not corrupt in any way?
It may be that all those property dealings in Liverpool were above board, and that the former Mayor and others have been falsely accused of impropriety, and that they are victims of a bungled police investigation.
Johnson reminds me of the skier in that Charles Adams cartoon, somehow he doesn't collide with the tree and continues on his downward descent.
Glad to see Major speaking up, whilst Boris’ supporters here circle the wagons.
Yes but remember we support Brexit and that isn't going to change
Brexit trumps everything for you, yes we know.
It does for very many and you should ask why no UK party, ex the SNP and Plaid, support rejoining, unless of course the Lib Dems finally discover honesty and say they will campaign to rejoin, not some silly fudge
Why? Brexit isn’t the key issue for me.
It makes everything a bit harder than it was before, we’re all a bit poorer and seems to be used by its supporters to justify/excuse/deflect from all sorts of poor practices like we saw this week.
Beyond that 🤷♀️
Johnson understands that the British voter does not do gratitude; so having got Brexit 'done' (for low values of done) is not going to be enough at the next GE. The electoral strategy is going to be to depict the oppostion as wanting to reverse Brexit and that it is only secure with the tories.
You can see tories on here already starting to push this line.
Yeah, Boris and his minions want the Brexit wars to continue forever.
I would suggest many on the remain side are doing a good job on that, ensuring that by not accepting we have left it continues ad nfinitum
Can you name any Remainers who don’t accept we have left?
Or are they just folk devils of your imagination?
It is not enough that we accept the bleedin' obvious fact that we have left, in true 1984 style Big Brother G demands that we also love Brexit.
We all want honesty in politics and the lib dems policy is disingenuous as they want to rejoin
If you are so incensed by disingenuity that you are repelled by the LibDem's ambiguous position on Europe then your feelings about Johnson must be truly visceral.
Glad to see Major speaking up, whilst Boris’ supporters here circle the wagons.
Yes but remember we support Brexit and that isn't going to change
Brexit trumps everything for you, yes we know.
It does for very many and you should ask why no UK party, ex the SNP and Plaid, support rejoining, unless of course the Lib Dems finally discover honesty and say they will campaign to rejoin, not some silly fudge
Why? Brexit isn’t the key issue for me.
It makes everything a bit harder than it was before, we’re all a bit poorer and seems to be used by its supporters to justify/excuse/deflect from all sorts of poor practices like we saw this week.
Beyond that 🤷♀️
Johnson understands that the British voter does not do gratitude; so having got Brexit 'done' (for low values of done) is not going to be enough at the next GE. The electoral strategy is going to be to depict the oppostion as wanting to reverse Brexit and that it is only secure with the tories.
You can see tories on here already starting to push this line.
Yeah, Boris and his minions want the Brexit wars to continue forever.
I would suggest many on the remain side are doing a good job on that, ensuring that by not accepting we have left it continues ad nfinitum
But, once again, you're on here suggesting a party you won't vote for should adopt a policy you don't like which you also think will be unpopular. It's very strange behaviour, G.
Not really
We all want honesty in politics and the lib dems policy is disingenuous as they want to rejoin
Be honest and say so, they would take quite some seats down south
It's not up to me to "say so" since I'm not a member of the Lib Dems, and probably won't vote for them next time. I think you're attracted to the idea of them adopting a rejoin policy because you think it'll drive votes towards the Conservatives. And you'd be right, but I think you're the one who's being sneaky here, not the Lib Dems.
No I honestly am not
Politics needs frank and honest positions and as a side issue I think they would do quite well
I see that OKC has usefully highlighted the current Lib Dem position.
Glad to see Major speaking up, whilst Boris’ supporters here circle the wagons.
Yes but remember we support Brexit and that isn't going to change
Brexit trumps everything for you, yes we know.
It does for very many and you should ask why no UK party, ex the SNP and Plaid, support rejoining, unless of course the Lib Dems finally discover honesty and say they will campaign to rejoin, not some silly fudge
Why? Brexit isn’t the key issue for me.
It makes everything a bit harder than it was before, we’re all a bit poorer and seems to be used by its supporters to justify/excuse/deflect from all sorts of poor practices like we saw this week.
Beyond that 🤷♀️
Johnson understands that the British voter does not do gratitude; so having got Brexit 'done' (for low values of done) is not going to be enough at the next GE. The electoral strategy is going to be to depict the oppostion as wanting to reverse Brexit and that it is only secure with the tories.
You can see tories on here already starting to push this line.
Yeah, Boris and his minions want the Brexit wars to continue forever.
I would suggest many on the remain side are doing a good job on that, ensuring that by not accepting we have left it continues ad nfinitum
But, once again, you're on here suggesting a party you won't vote for should adopt a policy you don't like which you also think will be unpopular. It's very strange behaviour, G.
Not really
We all want honesty in politics and the Tories' policy is disingenuous as they want to privatise the NHS
Be honest and say so, they would take quite some seats down south
Illustrates my point.
The one thing on this forum I find distasteful is a post being altered to mean something else by another poster
Mr. kjh, how could that be? A lacey lady with bells a'jingling, oiling a wiffle stick for a public performance, is simply a part of the wonderful world of morris dancing.
Sir John Major: "This government has done a number of things that have concerned me deeply: they have broken the law, the illegal prorogation of parliament. They have broken treaties, I have in mind the Northern Ireland Protocol. They have broken their word on many occasions." https://twitter.com/ChrisMasonBBC/status/1456899066604949505
Interesting comments from Lord Major, though he's picked up too many EuCo talking points imo.
The stuff about "illegal prorogation of Parliament" is rhetoric imo - the 'breach of the law' was declared later, and reversed when known, and I still find the judgement questionable. "Broken treaties" - have they? He means the NIP, and certain elements have been delayed by both sides - UK required rapidity of change; EU Trusted Trader scheme which would solve many problems. Commentators on Eurotwitter usually limit themselves to 'threatened to break international law in a limited way', ie a comment from a junior Parliamentarian being hung on BJ.
The one that interests me is the sense of "we are the masters now". I agree with that one, and it leads to negligence / lack of thoroughness, which imo is the one that will get BJ in the end.
You seem to have become an apologist for shabby behaviour by the government.
The attempted prorogation created an outrage when it was first mooted, even if only later found to be illegal.
As for Northern Ireland, it is pretty clear that Boris and Frost never intended to honour the NIP. They negotiated in bad faith.
They have honoured the NIP. The EU negotiated in bad faith, they've not agreed a Trusted Trader scheme.
Since there's been no Trusted Trader Scheme, the NIP has created difficulties that allow the safeguarding element of the NIP to be invoked. There's nothing "bad faith" about that, its the whole frigging point of having a safeguarding element in the Protocol.
Why bother having a safeguarding article in the Protocol if you're not prepared to use it?
According to the research I have done a Trusted Trader Scheme was agreed in january 2021. It was estimated to cover 98% of our goods.
Glad to see Major speaking up, whilst Boris’ supporters here circle the wagons.
Yes but remember we support Brexit and that isn't going to change
Brexit trumps everything for you, yes we know.
It does for very many and you should ask why no UK party, ex the SNP and Plaid, support rejoining, unless of course the Lib Dems finally discover honesty and say they will campaign to rejoin, not some silly fudge
Why? Brexit isn’t the key issue for me.
It makes everything a bit harder than it was before, we’re all a bit poorer and seems to be used by its supporters to justify/excuse/deflect from all sorts of poor practices like we saw this week.
Beyond that 🤷♀️
Johnson understands that the British voter does not do gratitude; so having got Brexit 'done' (for low values of done) is not going to be enough at the next GE. The electoral strategy is going to be to depict the oppostion as wanting to reverse Brexit and that it is only secure with the tories.
You can see tories on here already starting to push this line.
Fair comment and GE24 will be a moment when each party has to outline its strategy on Europe
For me I could vote to rejoin the single market but will not vote for any party who wants to rejoin or rejoin in a disingenuous way
How do you distinguish between rejoin the SM and a disingenuous first step to rejoining the EU?
Lib dems position
What precisely is disingenuous about the Lib Dem position?
(I’m not even sure I know what it is at present, although of course I expect they are very open to rejoining while aware this is unlikely any time soon).
We all want honesty in politics and the lib dems policy is disingenuous as they want to rejoin
If you are so incensed by disingenuity that you are repelled by the LibDem's ambiguous position on Europe then your feelings about Johnson must be truly visceral.
I am very angry with Boris and would have him replaced asap
Mr. kjh, how could that be? A lacey lady with bells a'jingling, oiling a wiffle stick for a public performance, is simply a part of the wonderful world of morris dancing.
Stop it Morris Dancer this is not a porn site.
Haven't seen a morris dance for ages; you're making me wistful.
Booster update. I had a Pfizer booster yesterday at 9.30, original doses were both AZ. Felt fine until 10 pm then overcome with feeling shit, and went to bed. Have just had the worst night in years. Headache, sweaty, everything wrong. Still have the headache, and feeling under the weather but probably over the worst.
If that’s what Covid is like, no thanks...
My first AZ was like that. The worst I have felt in my entire life. I made the mistake of trying to walk to the kitchen to get some tablets and passed out. That was as bad as it got though, and although I didn’t feel right for a week after, it was just headache, dehydration and a touch of anxiety, borne of the passing out I reckon.
Stay in bed and watch tv or listen to some nice music is my advice!
I had a similar reaction, although didn’t pass out (largely because I couldn’t leave my bed!). The key seems to be necking a couple of paracetamol, which eases the fever and reduces the headache enough so you can sleep.
Glad to see Major speaking up, whilst Boris’ supporters here circle the wagons.
Yes but remember we support Brexit and that isn't going to change
Brexit trumps everything for you, yes we know.
It does for very many and you should ask why no UK party, ex the SNP and Plaid, support rejoining, unless of course the Lib Dems finally discover honesty and say they will campaign to rejoin, not some silly fudge
Why? Brexit isn’t the key issue for me.
It makes everything a bit harder than it was before, we’re all a bit poorer and seems to be used by its supporters to justify/excuse/deflect from all sorts of poor practices like we saw this week.
Beyond that 🤷♀️
Johnson understands that the British voter does not do gratitude; so having got Brexit 'done' (for low values of done) is not going to be enough at the next GE. The electoral strategy is going to be to depict the oppostion as wanting to reverse Brexit and that it is only secure with the tories.
You can see tories on here already starting to push this line.
Yeah, Boris and his minions want the Brexit wars to continue forever.
I would suggest many on the remain side are doing a good job on that, ensuring that by not accepting we have left it continues ad nfinitum
But, once again, you're on here suggesting a party you won't vote for should adopt a policy you don't like which you also think will be unpopular. It's very strange behaviour, G.
Not really
We all want honesty in politics and the lib dems policy is disingenuous as they want to rejoin
Be honest and say so, they would take quite some seats down south
It's not up to me to "say so" since I'm not a member of the Lib Dems, and probably won't vote for them next time. I think you're attracted to the idea of them adopting a rejoin policy because you think it'll drive votes towards the Conservatives. And you'd be right, but I think you're the one who's being sneaky here, not the Lib Dems.
No I honestly am not
Politics needs frank and honest positions and as a side issue I think they would do quite well
Ok, so given the Lib Dem statement that OKC has just pasted in here, do you think there's something about that which is not frank, not honest? It passes the sniff test for me, it sounds very Lib Dem and it's based on an undeniable truth in that there is widespread annoyance at the whole subject. I find it very believable that the Lib Dems have a long-term strategy to rejoin but have no wish to even try to start the process until the public is more amenable. Perhaps you think they must be lying because you find it too sensible? In which case, please try to remember that every party is capable of getting some things right. Sometimes a party you don't like can say sensible things without it being a ruse.
Sort of on topic, it has to be good for Buttigeig that he's secretary of transportation, and as of today the Biden administration looks set to achieve basically nothing except transportation.
The poll in today's mail on which leader is sleazy Boris beats Starmer 53%/20%
However, paradoxically on who is doing the better job overall he wins 41% too 27%
The mail put this down to it is already being accepted about Boris and sleaze
What a strange world we live in, but maybe labour should wonder why Starmer is not cutting through
That sort of polling makes me laugh.
It will just make the Boris haters even more mad.. consumed by hate rather than doing something about it.
The Tories are the only option right now, dislikeable as they are. Labour are a shambles and with "Scumspeak" Rayner about, its not going to change anytime soon. What are Labour doing about making themselves electable? SFA IMHO.
If Labour ever got your vote, it probably wouldn't get mine.
Angela Rayer is the Tories secret weapon She wont be able to keep her trap shut, its all going to.kick off again soon.....
Glad to see Major speaking up, whilst Boris’ supporters here circle the wagons.
Yes but remember we support Brexit and that isn't going to change
Brexit trumps everything for you, yes we know.
It does for very many and you should ask why no UK party, ex the SNP and Plaid, support rejoining, unless of course the Lib Dems finally discover honesty and say they will campaign to rejoin, not some silly fudge
Why? Brexit isn’t the key issue for me.
It makes everything a bit harder than it was before, we’re all a bit poorer and seems to be used by its supporters to justify/excuse/deflect from all sorts of poor practices like we saw this week.
Beyond that 🤷♀️
Johnson understands that the British voter does not do gratitude; so having got Brexit 'done' (for low values of done) is not going to be enough at the next GE. The electoral strategy is going to be to depict the oppostion as wanting to reverse Brexit and that it is only secure with the tories.
You can see tories on here already starting to push this line.
Fair comment and GE24 will be a moment when each party has to outline its strategy on Europe
For me I could vote to rejoin the single market but will not vote for any party who wants to rejoin or rejoin in a disingenuous way
How do you distinguish between rejoin the SM and a disingenuous first step to rejoining the EU?
Lib dems position
Look, I don't like the Lib Dems either. But if their manifesto says "In the 2023-8 Parliament, we will support returning to the Single Market and won't seek to rejoin the EU", will you oppose that because of the likelihood that they will push further sometime in the 2030's?
Democracies reverse policy all the time. It's an important way that democratic politics isn't like making babies.
Why the fear of reversing this?
I liked other than the bit where you said you didn't like the Lib Dems. That isn't allowed I'm afraid.
Glad to see Major speaking up, whilst Boris’ supporters here circle the wagons.
Yes but remember we support Brexit and that isn't going to change
Brexit trumps everything for you, yes we know.
It does for very many and you should ask why no UK party, ex the SNP and Plaid, support rejoining, unless of course the Lib Dems finally discover honesty and say they will campaign to rejoin, not some silly fudge
Why? Brexit isn’t the key issue for me.
It makes everything a bit harder than it was before, we’re all a bit poorer and seems to be used by its supporters to justify/excuse/deflect from all sorts of poor practices like we saw this week.
Beyond that 🤷♀️
Johnson understands that the British voter does not do gratitude; so having got Brexit 'done' (for low values of done) is not going to be enough at the next GE. The electoral strategy is going to be to depict the oppostion as wanting to reverse Brexit and that it is only secure with the tories.
You can see tories on here already starting to push this line.
Yeah, Boris and his minions want the Brexit wars to continue forever.
I would suggest many on the remain side are doing a good job on that, ensuring that by not accepting we have left it continues ad nfinitum
But, once again, you're on here suggesting a party you won't vote for should adopt a policy you don't like which you also think will be unpopular. It's very strange behaviour, G.
Not really
We all want honesty in politics and the lib dems policy is disingenuous as they want to rejoin
Be honest and say so, they would take quite some seats down south
It's not up to me to "say so" since I'm not a member of the Lib Dems, and probably won't vote for them next time. I think you're attracted to the idea of them adopting a rejoin policy because you think it'll drive votes towards the Conservatives. And you'd be right, but I think you're the one who's being sneaky here, not the Lib Dems.
No I honestly am not
Politics needs frank and honest positions and as a side issue I think they would do quite well
I see that OKC has usefully highlighted the current Lib Dem position.
Can you tell us what is dishonest about it?
Is there anything honest about the LD position on anything?
King Cole, a campaign to shift benefits to be contributory (or even residence based but requiring X years legal residence) would be a great way to defang migration/free movement from a pro-EU perspective.
Never going to happen, though.
I'm not so sure about that. I could foresee a situation some years down the line where a Labour government, or even a Tory one, wanted, largely for economic reasons, to increase the mobility of labour between the UK and the EU. Free movement with no strings attached would be a no-no, but a system based on the right to move as long as you are working and not claiming benefits is not implausible.
Booster update. I had a Pfizer booster yesterday at 9.30, original doses were both AZ. Felt fine until 10 pm then overcome with feeling shit, and went to bed. Have just had the worst night in years. Headache, sweaty, everything wrong. Still have the headache, and feeling under the weather but probably over the worst.
If that’s what Covid is like, no thanks...
Told you so. You are 1.5 days behind me so I'm guessing you will have a day of being ok but feeling drained in front of you and then hey presto I am as right as rain today other than the arm is still a little sore.
Yep - Mile and a half walk back from the garage with the dog has left me feeling like I’ve done a half marathon... Plenty of sport on tv at least.
The poll in today's mail on which leader is sleazy Boris beats Starmer 53%/20%
However, paradoxically on who is doing the better job overall he wins 41% too 27%
The mail put this down to it is already being accepted about Boris and sleaze
What a strange world we live in, but maybe labour should wonder why Starmer is not cutting through
That sort of polling makes me laugh.
It will just make the Boris haters even more mad.. consumed by hate rather than doing something about it.
The Tories are the only option right now, dislikeable as they are. Labour are a shambles and with "Scumspeak" Rayner about, its not going to change anytime soon. What are Labour doing about making themselves electable? SFA IMHO.
If Labour ever got your vote, it probably wouldn't get mine.
Angela Rayer is the Tories secret weapon She wont be able to keep her trap shut, its all going to.kick off again soon.....
Glad to see Major speaking up, whilst Boris’ supporters here circle the wagons.
Yes but remember we support Brexit and that isn't going to change
Brexit trumps everything for you, yes we know.
It does for very many and you should ask why no UK party, ex the SNP and Plaid, support rejoining, unless of course the Lib Dems finally discover honesty and say they will campaign to rejoin, not some silly fudge
Why? Brexit isn’t the key issue for me.
It makes everything a bit harder than it was before, we’re all a bit poorer and seems to be used by its supporters to justify/excuse/deflect from all sorts of poor practices like we saw this week.
Beyond that 🤷♀️
Johnson understands that the British voter does not do gratitude; so having got Brexit 'done' (for low values of done) is not going to be enough at the next GE. The electoral strategy is going to be to depict the oppostion as wanting to reverse Brexit and that it is only secure with the tories.
You can see tories on here already starting to push this line.
Yeah, Boris and his minions want the Brexit wars to continue forever.
I would suggest many on the remain side are doing a good job on that, ensuring that by not accepting we have left it continues ad nfinitum
But, once again, you're on here suggesting a party you won't vote for should adopt a policy you don't like which you also think will be unpopular. It's very strange behaviour, G.
Not really
We all want honesty in politics and the lib dems policy is disingenuous as they want to rejoin
Be honest and say so, they would take quite some seats down south
It's not up to me to "say so" since I'm not a member of the Lib Dems, and probably won't vote for them next time. I think you're attracted to the idea of them adopting a rejoin policy because you think it'll drive votes towards the Conservatives. And you'd be right, but I think you're the one who's being sneaky here, not the Lib Dems.
No I honestly am not
Politics needs frank and honest positions and as a side issue I think they would do quite well
Ok, so given the Lib Dem statement that OKC has just pasted in here, do you think there's something about that which is not frank, not honest? It passes the sniff test for me, it sounds very Lib Dem and it's based on an undeniable truth in that there is widespread annoyance at the whole subject. I find it very believable that the Lib Dems have a long-term strategy to rejoin but have no wish to even try to start the process until the public is more amenable. Perhaps you think they must be lying because you find it too sensible? In which case, please try to remember that every party is capable of getting some things right. Sometimes a party you don't like can say sensible things without it being a ruse.
It states it wants to rejoin but effectively cannot say it as it would not be popular
I would just comment that a time may come when we do rejoin but I doubt that will be in my lifetime
We have to improve the deal but that takes two sides to come to the table and the EU to accept we have left and not to continue it's desire for punishment
For the first time in a long time (ever?) Worldometer reports more German new cases than British
35.806
over
34,029
That can't be right. iSAGE have assured us that we are doing appallingly compared to europe.
e.g.
Danny Altmann @Daltmann10 · Nov 2 Hard to emphasise sufficiently the importance and impact of these points. I’m often asked why UK is fairing abysmally compared to mainland Europe.
So the hypothesis is, it’s down the the weather (climate) and most of the precautions are now of negligible real value.
Which is why it was the correct strategy to run hot in summer and autumn to build up natural immunity in the "won't vaccinate" cohort. No one was ever really able to explain what displacement of cases would get us in June and July when we were going for full unlockdown and in the end no answer was ever given, just screeching about being worse than Europe and other unnecessary politicisation of the issue. The people who wanted neverending NPIs got their wish in the EU and those countries have got no way out and chances are loads of them will have to go into pretty tough lockdown measures similar to last year because there isn't enough natural immunity to supplement diluted/waning vaccine immunity.
The people of Europe have been badly let down by their governments and been fed a diet of fear to keep them in line and critical of countries who have made the lead to endemic COVID like the UK has done. I have friends in Italy who don't want to come to the UK because they think it's a COVID wasteland where people are dying in the streets. Their officials feed them this constant bullshit about how reaching herd immunity is impossible so will have to live with permanent NPIs. The major worry in Italy is that the UK gets past the herd immunity threshold in the next two to three weeks and we're down to a trivial number of cases over Xmas and suddenly the Italian public wake up to the fact that they've been sold on a completely false pretence.
That's not just a European story. Fox News did a piece earlier this week about how Britain is struggling with a third wave, and how American vaccines (Moderna) were better than the British ones.
Weird, I had an American vaccine and my wife did as well! What's very odd is that everyone wants to shit on the UK. I think there is a lot of fear that we've chosen the right path and now it's too late for them to do the same thing so need to try and justify to themselves that we've fucked up. For those of us living through the "disaster" it's barely been noticeable. Now that government data shows cases falling we're also at minimal risk of having plan b shoved on us too.
I was looking at our own data model of cases today and it was saying an average of 30k per week in December for England.
Macron is doing a covid address to the nation on Tuesday, so it will be interesting to see what he announces.
France is now allowing everyone who's six months since their second vaccine jab to get the booster. I wouldn't be surprised if he introduces measures to encourage people to get it.
Does he not realise the damage this is doing to poorer countries, or does he not care? In Africa 9% - nine percent - have had a dose.
Macron was elected to serve the people of France. As a general rule, when you forget to whom you answer, you rapidly end up out of a job.
Sure. But is there any significant benefit to giving people - at least in lower risk groups - a third dose? Is there even significant demand for a third dose? There was clamour for the original two-dose regimen, so it's understandable that got rolled out to all adults and even to some children - but it strikes me that whilst that was the people saying "we want a vaccine" this is the politicians saying "you should have a booster".
(1) There are plenty of vaccination regimes people take today with are three or more doses, such as HPV or Hepititis B.
(2) There is ample evidence that protection from CV19 - particularly thanks to Delta - wanes if you have two doses close together.
(3) There is approximately a 10-fold increase in antibody levels once one is given a third dose.
It is highly likely that we will all take Covid booster shots every couple of years, probably bundled up with one's annual flu vaccine.
Even if this wasn't true, it's still not the case that vaccines are fungible. Most of Africa lacks the infrastructure to distribute the Moderna or Pfizer mRNA vaccines (which is pretty much all the inventory in Europe).
(1) is true - but these were supposed to be two doses and done. To take a personal example, I managed to convince my wife (who's in a vulnerable group) to get the two doses - but to get the booster is an uphill task. She doesn't want to have to go to get another dose every six months for the rest of her life, and that's quite understandable.
The last point is fair - I had forgotten how much damage Macron (amongst others, but he was one of the worst culprits) did by demonising AZ.
You should remember the vaccines are being distributed rapidly with a much smaller gap than normal to cover the whole trial and testing process. Therefore it's all really part of a giant experiment and we simply cannot yet know the optimum amount of dose and number of doses for sure. That could take several years to be determined. I'm not sure anyone seriously thought or claimed that 2 doses would give protection in perpetuity.
I note that our government has dropped the Astra Zenica now. All boosters are Pfizer.
I note they’ve just cut the 6month requirement for boosters for the over 50s, which is very sensible. Shame they didn’t do it a couple of weeks ago, as it might have saved my getting infected. Can’t really complain so far, as the symptoms are somewhere around very bad cold / relatively mild flu. Worst thing is how much my eyes ache.
AstraZeneca, while performing excellently against Original Covid, Saffer Covid, and Cockney Covid, has not been as effective as we would like against Delta - almost certainly as a consequence of the fact that people end up with massively bigger doses of it.
Boosting antibody response 10x or more by adding a Pfizer or Moderna booster to an initial AZ dose (indeed, it may be nearer 20x, given that those are the increases in antibody levels for Pfizer/Moderna first doses) is going to make a massive difference to the number of symptomatic Covid cases.
It also means that people who do get it have less severe infections and - on average - exhibit less viral shedding. It's a win-win-win, more people with protection, means lower levels of Covid in the air, means that vaccines are more protective.
Not only are ‘highly educated’ PBers congenitally unable to spell the names of Owen Paterson, Angela Rayner and Sir Keir, they also continue to labour under the illusion that Kent is part of east London.
Glad to see Major speaking up, whilst Boris’ supporters here circle the wagons.
Yes but remember we support Brexit and that isn't going to change
Brexit trumps everything for you, yes we know.
It does for very many and you should ask why no UK party, ex the SNP and Plaid, support rejoining, unless of course the Lib Dems finally discover honesty and say they will campaign to rejoin, not some silly fudge
Why? Brexit isn’t the key issue for me.
It makes everything a bit harder than it was before, we’re all a bit poorer and seems to be used by its supporters to justify/excuse/deflect from all sorts of poor practices like we saw this week.
Beyond that 🤷♀️
Johnson understands that the British voter does not do gratitude; so having got Brexit 'done' (for low values of done) is not going to be enough at the next GE. The electoral strategy is going to be to depict the oppostion as wanting to reverse Brexit and that it is only secure with the tories.
You can see tories on here already starting to push this line.
Yeah, Boris and his minions want the Brexit wars to continue forever.
I would suggest many on the remain side are doing a good job on that, ensuring that by not accepting we have left it continues ad nfinitum
But, once again, you're on here suggesting a party you won't vote for should adopt a policy you don't like which you also think will be unpopular. It's very strange behaviour, G.
Not really
We all want honesty in politics and the lib dems policy is disingenuous as they want to rejoin
Be honest and say so, they would take quite some seats down south
It's not up to me to "say so" since I'm not a member of the Lib Dems, and probably won't vote for them next time. I think you're attracted to the idea of them adopting a rejoin policy because you think it'll drive votes towards the Conservatives. And you'd be right, but I think you're the one who's being sneaky here, not the Lib Dems.
No I honestly am not
Politics needs frank and honest positions and as a side issue I think they would do quite well
I see that OKC has usefully highlighted the current Lib Dem position.
Can you tell us what is dishonest about it?
Is there anything honest about the LD position on anything?
Yes. No party is wrong about everything, and no party is dishonest all the time. We'd have a much better politics if everyone accepted those two basic truths.
Glad to see Major speaking up, whilst Boris’ supporters here circle the wagons.
Yes but remember we support Brexit and that isn't going to change
Brexit trumps everything for you, yes we know.
It does for very many and you should ask why no UK party, ex the SNP and Plaid, support rejoining, unless of course the Lib Dems finally discover honesty and say they will campaign to rejoin, not some silly fudge
Why? Brexit isn’t the key issue for me.
It makes everything a bit harder than it was before, we’re all a bit poorer and seems to be used by its supporters to justify/excuse/deflect from all sorts of poor practices like we saw this week.
Beyond that 🤷♀️
Johnson understands that the British voter does not do gratitude; so having got Brexit 'done' (for low values of done) is not going to be enough at the next GE. The electoral strategy is going to be to depict the oppostion as wanting to reverse Brexit and that it is only secure with the tories.
You can see tories on here already starting to push this line.
Yeah, Boris and his minions want the Brexit wars to continue forever.
I would suggest many on the remain side are doing a good job on that, ensuring that by not accepting we have left it continues ad nfinitum
But, once again, you're on here suggesting a party you won't vote for should adopt a policy you don't like which you also think will be unpopular. It's very strange behaviour, G.
Not really
We all want honesty in politics and the lib dems policy is disingenuous as they want to rejoin
Be honest and say so, they would take quite some seats down south
It's not up to me to "say so" since I'm not a member of the Lib Dems, and probably won't vote for them next time. I think you're attracted to the idea of them adopting a rejoin policy because you think it'll drive votes towards the Conservatives. And you'd be right, but I think you're the one who's being sneaky here, not the Lib Dems.
No I honestly am not
Politics needs frank and honest positions and as a side issue I think they would do quite well
I see that OKC has usefully highlighted the current Lib Dem position.
Can you tell us what is dishonest about it?
Is there anything honest about the LD position on anything?
And here you come with your usual generic post devoid of any content whatsoever just being rude about Lab normally (although in fairness it is the LDs today). Try debating with someone.
And to answer your question without any need of any thought - Constitutional reform.
Glad to see Major speaking up, whilst Boris’ supporters here circle the wagons.
Yes but remember we support Brexit and that isn't going to change
Brexit trumps everything for you, yes we know.
It does for very many and you should ask why no UK party, ex the SNP and Plaid, support rejoining, unless of course the Lib Dems finally discover honesty and say they will campaign to rejoin, not some silly fudge
Why? Brexit isn’t the key issue for me.
It makes everything a bit harder than it was before, we’re all a bit poorer and seems to be used by its supporters to justify/excuse/deflect from all sorts of poor practices like we saw this week.
Beyond that 🤷♀️
Johnson understands that the British voter does not do gratitude; so having got Brexit 'done' (for low values of done) is not going to be enough at the next GE. The electoral strategy is going to be to depict the oppostion as wanting to reverse Brexit and that it is only secure with the tories.
You can see tories on here already starting to push this line.
Yeah, Boris and his minions want the Brexit wars to continue forever.
I would suggest many on the remain side are doing a good job on that, ensuring that by not accepting we have left it continues ad nfinitum
But, once again, you're on here suggesting a party you won't vote for should adopt a policy you don't like which you also think will be unpopular. It's very strange behaviour, G.
Not really
We all want honesty in politics and the lib dems policy is disingenuous as they want to rejoin
Be honest and say so, they would take quite some seats down south
It's not up to me to "say so" since I'm not a member of the Lib Dems, and probably won't vote for them next time. I think you're attracted to the idea of them adopting a rejoin policy because you think it'll drive votes towards the Conservatives. And you'd be right, but I think you're the one who's being sneaky here, not the Lib Dems.
No I honestly am not
Politics needs frank and honest positions and as a side issue I think they would do quite well
I see that OKC has usefully highlighted the current Lib Dem position.
Can you tell us what is dishonest about it?
Is there anything honest about the LD position on anything?
And here you come with your usual generic post devoid of any content whatsoever just being rude about Lab normally (although in fairness it is the LDs today). Try debating with someone.
And to answer your question without any need of any thought - Constitutional reform.
100%
He is one of the dullest, most nakedly partisan posters on this forum. A sheep.
Glad to see Major speaking up, whilst Boris’ supporters here circle the wagons.
Yes but remember we support Brexit and that isn't going to change
I thought you didn't? But with Johnson fans the whole world can turn upside down in a moment ....'sometimes I've believed as many as six impossible things before breakfast' said Alice
Mr. Al, would that (no benefits) actually be permissible, though? It'd mean treating people fundamentally differently based on nationality.
I'm not sure, but as we're not in the EU we have more flexibility anyway. As it happens, I also suspect the EU itself will introduce some conditions on free movement within the next 10 years or so, which may resolve the problem.
King Cole, a campaign to shift benefits to be contributory (or even residence based but requiring X years legal residence) would be a great way to defang migration/free movement from a pro-EU perspective.
Never going to happen, though.
I'm not so sure about that. I could foresee a situation some years down the line where a Labour government, or even a Tory one, wanted, largely for economic reasons, to increase the mobility of labour between the UK and the EU. Free movement with no strings attached would be a no-no, but a system based on the right to move as long as you are working and not claiming benefits is not implausible.
Would the EU budge on that though? While the UK could certainly ease visa restrictions/quotas (which is what this proposal essentially is), the EU would no doubt view it as more cherry picking.
Boris doesn’t seem to have got much credit for his uturn.
Why should he? If it came with an apology and an explanation that would be a different matter. He's only done it because he wasn't getting away with it. I find it very disconcerting that we need to be so vigilant to keep our PM in check. His instincts are all wrong. He needs to be evicted and replaced with someone whom we can trust to at least try to do the right thing. There are dozens of far more suitable people in the Conservative Party.
Glad to see Major speaking up, whilst Boris’ supporters here circle the wagons.
Yes but remember we support Brexit and that isn't going to change
Brexit trumps everything for you, yes we know.
It does for very many and you should ask why no UK party, ex the SNP and Plaid, support rejoining, unless of course the Lib Dems finally discover honesty and say they will campaign to rejoin, not some silly fudge
Why? Brexit isn’t the key issue for me.
It makes everything a bit harder than it was before, we’re all a bit poorer and seems to be used by its supporters to justify/excuse/deflect from all sorts of poor practices like we saw this week.
Beyond that 🤷♀️
Johnson understands that the British voter does not do gratitude; so having got Brexit 'done' (for low values of done) is not going to be enough at the next GE. The electoral strategy is going to be to depict the oppostion as wanting to reverse Brexit and that it is only secure with the tories.
You can see tories on here already starting to push this line.
Yeah, Boris and his minions want the Brexit wars to continue forever.
I would suggest many on the remain side are doing a good job on that, ensuring that by not accepting we have left it continues ad nfinitum
But, once again, you're on here suggesting a party you won't vote for should adopt a policy you don't like which you also think will be unpopular. It's very strange behaviour, G.
Not really
We all want honesty in politics and the lib dems policy is disingenuous as they want to rejoin
Be honest and say so, they would take quite some seats down south
It's not up to me to "say so" since I'm not a member of the Lib Dems, and probably won't vote for them next time. I think you're attracted to the idea of them adopting a rejoin policy because you think it'll drive votes towards the Conservatives. And you'd be right, but I think you're the one who's being sneaky here, not the Lib Dems.
No I honestly am not
Politics needs frank and honest positions and as a side issue I think they would do quite well
I see that OKC has usefully highlighted the current Lib Dem position.
Can you tell us what is dishonest about it?
Is there anything honest about the LD position on anything?
And here you come with your usual generic post devoid of any content whatsoever just being rude about Lab normally (although in fairness it is the LDs today). Try debating with someone.
And to answer your question without any need of any thought - Constitutional reform.
Lol cant win any seats so wants PR. I guess its an honest representation of the position they are in.
The impression I get is the UK Gov will meet their declared targets approximately (up or down), but that is at least substantially because anyone running any one of these things knows that you set your specific targets according to what you can realistically achieve. Also pursuing some internationalism.
EuCo have been pursuing EU-US initiatives, because they are aiming to portray themselves as the Third Superpower.
US - I haven't been watching them in detail.
I'm not actually sure where we are on the £100bn finance target, or its precise definition.
There's some good complementary things that have happened. The financial institutions commitment looks good, as does the methane one. The methane is interesting in adopting a 2020 baseline, whilst many European countries had already achieved major reductions before this date - so for many in Europe it is now the hard yards. I am not clear why the UK has reduced this fastest, unless it is significantly coal.
I think that the Methane target will give you a big lever, Nick, as a lot of what is left in Europe relate to farming, and seem to be much higher in places like the NL and Denmark where they are very big on industrial farming. Graph below. I think that much of what has gone relate to coal, or for the UK flaring from oil platforms.
Booster update. I had a Pfizer booster yesterday at 9.30, original doses were both AZ. Felt fine until 10 pm then overcome with feeling shit, and went to bed. Have just had the worst night in years. Headache, sweaty, everything wrong. Still have the headache, and feeling under the weather but probably over the worst.
If that’s what Covid is like, no thanks...
Told you so. You are 1.5 days behind me so I'm guessing you will have a day of being ok but feeling drained in front of you and then hey presto I am as right as rain today other than the arm is still a little sore.
It does vary. I had the Pfizer booster with virtually no side-effects at all (my early shots were Pfizer too though). I think there's a lot of luck in it, but people shouldn't be scared - at worst it's an unconfortable couple of days, beats the hell out of being hospitalised or dead.
Without going all Macron, it does seem to be gradually clearer that Pfizer is a bit better than AZ (and I believe Moderna is better than either). But they're all keeping most of us well, and that's what matters.
I agree. In fact rather pleased in a way. If it has done that to me goodness knows what it does to Covid when it tries to invade me.
Glad to see Major speaking up, whilst Boris’ supporters here circle the wagons.
Yes but remember we support Brexit and that isn't going to change
Brexit trumps everything for you, yes we know.
It does for very many and you should ask why no UK party, ex the SNP and Plaid, support rejoining, unless of course the Lib Dems finally discover honesty and say they will campaign to rejoin, not some silly fudge
Why? Brexit isn’t the key issue for me.
It makes everything a bit harder than it was before, we’re all a bit poorer and seems to be used by its supporters to justify/excuse/deflect from all sorts of poor practices like we saw this week.
Beyond that 🤷♀️
Johnson understands that the British voter does not do gratitude; so having got Brexit 'done' (for low values of done) is not going to be enough at the next GE. The electoral strategy is going to be to depict the oppostion as wanting to reverse Brexit and that it is only secure with the tories.
You can see tories on here already starting to push this line.
Yeah, Boris and his minions want the Brexit wars to continue forever.
I would suggest many on the remain side are doing a good job on that, ensuring that by not accepting we have left it continues ad nfinitum
But, once again, you're on here suggesting a party you won't vote for should adopt a policy you don't like which you also think will be unpopular. It's very strange behaviour, G.
Not really
We all want honesty in politics and the lib dems policy is disingenuous as they want to rejoin
Be honest and say so, they would take quite some seats down south
It's not up to me to "say so" since I'm not a member of the Lib Dems, and probably won't vote for them next time. I think you're attracted to the idea of them adopting a rejoin policy because you think it'll drive votes towards the Conservatives. And you'd be right, but I think you're the one who's being sneaky here, not the Lib Dems.
No I honestly am not
Politics needs frank and honest positions and as a side issue I think they would do quite well
I see that OKC has usefully highlighted the current Lib Dem position.
Can you tell us what is dishonest about it?
Is there anything honest about the LD position on anything?
And here you come with your usual generic post devoid of any content whatsoever just being rude about Lab normally (although in fairness it is the LDs today). Try debating with someone.
And to answer your question without any need of any thought - Constitutional reform.
Lol cant win any seats so wants PR. I guess its an honest representation of the position they are in.
What a twit. I would hate to be you if you lead such a cynical life and just see the worst in everyone. Very sad indeed.
King Cole, a campaign to shift benefits to be contributory (or even residence based but requiring X years legal residence) would be a great way to defang migration/free movement from a pro-EU perspective.
Never going to happen, though.
I'm not so sure about that. I could foresee a situation some years down the line where a Labour government, or even a Tory one, wanted, largely for economic reasons, to increase the mobility of labour between the UK and the EU. Free movement with no strings attached would be a no-no, but a system based on the right to move as long as you are working and not claiming benefits is not implausible.
Would the EU budge on that though? While the UK could certainly ease visa restrictions/quotas (which is what this proposal essentially is), the EU would no doubt view it as more cherry picking.
As in my reply to Mr Dancer - I'm really thinking many years down the line, not imminently. Things change. And I think the EU will change. But who knows.
My wife is much improved this morning, to the point where she is currently in the kitchen making a cake.
It will be my turn to feel like crap for a day in December. Good to see that the powers that be have realised that it is a good idea to let people book their booster ahead of the due date. Imagine if you weren't allowed to phone the garage until after your MOT had already expired. That's the system for booking your booster.
King Cole, a campaign to shift benefits to be contributory (or even residence based but requiring X years legal residence) would be a great way to defang migration/free movement from a pro-EU perspective.
Never going to happen, though.
I'm not so sure about that. I could foresee a situation some years down the line where a Labour government, or even a Tory one, wanted, largely for economic reasons, to increase the mobility of labour between the UK and the EU. Free movement with no strings attached would be a no-no, but a system based on the right to move as long as you are working and not claiming benefits is not implausible.
Would the EU budge on that though? While the UK could certainly ease visa restrictions/quotas (which is what this proposal essentially is), the EU would no doubt view it as more cherry picking.
I thought more fruit was involved than just cherries!
My wife is much improved this morning, to the point where she is currently in the kitchen making a cake.
It will be my turn to feel like crap for a day in December. Good to see that the powers that be have realised that it is a good idea to let people book their booster ahead of the due date. Imagine if you weren't allowed to phone the garage until after your MOT had already expired. That's the system for booking your booster.
They have made a total horlicks of the booster campaign so far.
My wife is much improved this morning, to the point where she is currently in the kitchen making a cake.
It will be my turn to feel like crap for a day in December. Good to see that the powers that be have realised that it is a good idea to let people book their booster ahead of the due date. Imagine if you weren't allowed to phone the garage until after your MOT had already expired. That's the system for booking your booster.
They have made a total horlicks of the booster campaign so far.
AIUI it was taken out of the hands of the local NHS management, which had run the initial campaign very well indeed.
My wife is much improved this morning, to the point where she is currently in the kitchen making a cake.
It will be my turn to feel like crap for a day in December. Good to see that the powers that be have realised that it is a good idea to let people book their booster ahead of the due date. Imagine if you weren't allowed to phone the garage until after your MOT had already expired. That's the system for booking your booster.
They have made a total horlicks of the booster campaign so far.
AIUI it was taken out of the hands of the local NHS management, which had run the initial campaign very well indeed.
My wife is much improved this morning, to the point where she is currently in the kitchen making a cake.
It will be my turn to feel like crap for a day in December. Good to see that the powers that be have realised that it is a good idea to let people book their booster ahead of the due date. Imagine if you weren't allowed to phone the garage until after your MOT had already expired. That's the system for booking your booster.
They have made a total horlicks of the booster campaign so far.
AIUI it was taken out of the hands of the local NHS management, which had run the initial campaign very well indeed.
It was doing well before?
Locally at least, in the early stages the vaccination programme seemed to work very well.
My wife is much improved this morning, to the point where she is currently in the kitchen making a cake.
It will be my turn to feel like crap for a day in December. Good to see that the powers that be have realised that it is a good idea to let people book their booster ahead of the due date. Imagine if you weren't allowed to phone the garage until after your MOT had already expired. That's the system for booking your booster.
They have made a total horlicks of the booster campaign so far.
AIUI it was taken out of the hands of the local NHS management, which had run the initial campaign very well indeed.
Other way around, the initial campaign was run by a private company who created the provisioning service, text alerts and online booking system. The NHS is in charge of it this time from end to end and unsurprisingly they've gone back to sending out letters and relying on GPs. My guess is that the Saj has brought back the private company to run the online booking system again.
We all want honesty in politics and the lib dems policy is disingenuous as they want to rejoin
If you are so incensed by disingenuity that you are repelled by the LibDem's ambiguous position on Europe then your feelings about Johnson must be truly visceral.
I am very angry with Boris and would have him replaced asap
More choruses than Hey Jude!
I wish that instead of these rather embarrassing lovers tiffs you would explain what first attracted to Boris and why despite constant let downs the flame never dims!
Major denouncing Frost’s negotiation style for going in week after week and taking something while giving nothing away was quite telling.
See how much "goodwill" and reform of the CAP Mr Blair got for giving up a chunk of the rebate.
Thank God we're British!
...One more chorus of Rule Britannia!!
A fair amount of CAP reform was achieved actually. Read the evidence on wikipedia (i know).
For me the CAP was a big issue. I know that won't sit well with @MaxPB view of me of loving all foreigners and hating the British but we were on the right side of the argument which did seems to just be protectionism leading to waste.
My wife is much improved this morning, to the point where she is currently in the kitchen making a cake.
It will be my turn to feel like crap for a day in December. Good to see that the powers that be have realised that it is a good idea to let people book their booster ahead of the due date. Imagine if you weren't allowed to phone the garage until after your MOT had already expired. That's the system for booking your booster.
They have made a total horlicks of the booster campaign so far.
Seems very well organised locally (E Cheshire). Choice of national NHS booking or GP practice, both contacting in timely fashion.
My wife is much improved this morning, to the point where she is currently in the kitchen making a cake.
It will be my turn to feel like crap for a day in December. Good to see that the powers that be have realised that it is a good idea to let people book their booster ahead of the due date. Imagine if you weren't allowed to phone the garage until after your MOT had already expired. That's the system for booking your booster.
They have made a total horlicks of the booster campaign so far.
AIUI it was taken out of the hands of the local NHS management, which had run the initial campaign very well indeed.
Other way around, the initial campaign was run by a private company who created the provisioning service, text alerts and online booking system. The NHS is in charge of it this time from end to end and unsurprisingly they've gone back to sending out letters and relying on GPs. My guess is that the Saj has brought back the private company to run the online booking system again.
Locally, certainly, the service back in the early part of the year was largely GP's, or consortia of GPs. Now it's a mish-mash. Locally again, GP's seem to be out of the loop.
My wife is much improved this morning, to the point where she is currently in the kitchen making a cake.
It will be my turn to feel like crap for a day in December. Good to see that the powers that be have realised that it is a good idea to let people book their booster ahead of the due date. Imagine if you weren't allowed to phone the garage until after your MOT had already expired. That's the system for booking your booster.
They have made a total horlicks of the booster campaign so far.
AIUI it was taken out of the hands of the local NHS management, which had run the initial campaign very well indeed.
It was doing well before?
I think it was. Can't think of anything wrong with the vaccination programme for the first two jabs and in fairness although the booster programme was a shambles to start with they do seem to have now got their act together now.
My wife is much improved this morning, to the point where she is currently in the kitchen making a cake.
It will be my turn to feel like crap for a day in December. Good to see that the powers that be have realised that it is a good idea to let people book their booster ahead of the due date. Imagine if you weren't allowed to phone the garage until after your MOT had already expired. That's the system for booking your booster.
They have made a total horlicks of the booster campaign so far.
AIUI it was taken out of the hands of the local NHS management, which had run the initial campaign very well indeed.
It was doing well before?
Locally at least, in the early stages the vaccination programme seemed to work very well.
I guess when the numbers required were still quite low due to the six-month cut-off. Looking at the number of doses given I don't see anything but a gradual improvement in the rate over the last few weeks.
The poll in today's mail on which leader is sleazy Boris beats Starmer 53%/20%
However, paradoxically on who is doing the better job overall he wins 41% too 27%
The mail put this down to it is already being accepted about Boris and sleaze
What a strange world we live in, but maybe labour should wonder why Starmer is not cutting through
That sort of polling makes me laugh.
It will just make the Boris haters even more mad.. consumed by hate rather than doing something about it.
The Tories are the only option right now, dislikeable as they are. Labour are a shambles and with "Scumspeak" Rayner about, its not going to change anytime soon. What are Labour doing about making themselves electable? SFA IMHO.
If Labour ever got your vote, it probably wouldn't get mine.
My wife is much improved this morning, to the point where she is currently in the kitchen making a cake.
It will be my turn to feel like crap for a day in December. Good to see that the powers that be have realised that it is a good idea to let people book their booster ahead of the due date. Imagine if you weren't allowed to phone the garage until after your MOT had already expired. That's the system for booking your booster.
They have made a total horlicks of the booster campaign so far.
AIUI it was taken out of the hands of the local NHS management, which had run the initial campaign very well indeed.
Other way around, the initial campaign was run by a private company who created the provisioning service, text alerts and online booking system. The NHS is in charge of it this time from end to end and unsurprisingly they've gone back to sending out letters and relying on GPs. My guess is that the Saj has brought back the private company to run the online booking system again.
Locally, certainly, the service back in the early part of the year was largely GP's, or consortia of GPs. Now it's a mish-mash. Locally again, GP's seem to be out of the loop.
Ah, I understand now, you were referring to the initial vaccination effort. I remember there being cries of how crap that was at the start, too.
My wife is much improved this morning, to the point where she is currently in the kitchen making a cake.
It will be my turn to feel like crap for a day in December. Good to see that the powers that be have realised that it is a good idea to let people book their booster ahead of the due date. Imagine if you weren't allowed to phone the garage until after your MOT had already expired. That's the system for booking your booster.
They have made a total horlicks of the booster campaign so far.
AIUI it was taken out of the hands of the local NHS management, which had run the initial campaign very well indeed.
Other way around, the initial campaign was run by a private company who created the provisioning service, text alerts and online booking system. The NHS is in charge of it this time from end to end and unsurprisingly they've gone back to sending out letters and relying on GPs. My guess is that the Saj has brought back the private company to run the online booking system again.
Locally, certainly, the service back in the early part of the year was largely GP's, or consortia of GPs. Now it's a mish-mash. Locally again, GP's seem to be out of the loop.
It's the online booking system and provisioning service that was the big innovation which the NHS decided not to bother with this time. That decision seems to have been reversed by the Saj because people are now being provisioned a dose in advance of eligibility which is how the old system worked. Relying on letters is also a tell tale sign that it's the same failed NHS thinking involved.
We all want honesty in politics and the lib dems policy is disingenuous as they want to rejoin
If you are so incensed by disingenuity that you are repelled by the LibDem's ambiguous position on Europe then your feelings about Johnson must be truly visceral.
I am very angry with Boris and would have him replaced asap
More choruses than Hey Jude!
I wish that instead of these rather embarrassing lovers tiffs you would explain what first attracted to Boris and why despite constant let downs the flame never dims!
I did not vote for Boris in the members vote but if there is one thing I do like about Boris is the way he winds you up
Sir John Major: "This government has done a number of things that have concerned me deeply: they have broken the law, the illegal prorogation of parliament. They have broken treaties, I have in mind the Northern Ireland Protocol. They have broken their word on many occasions." https://twitter.com/ChrisMasonBBC/status/1456899066604949505
Interesting comments from Lord Major, though he's picked up too many EuCo talking points imo.
The stuff about "illegal prorogation of Parliament" is rhetoric imo - the 'breach of the law' was declared later, and reversed when known, and I still find the judgement questionable. "Broken treaties" - have they? He means the NIP, and certain elements have been delayed by both sides - UK required rapidity of change; EU Trusted Trader scheme which would solve many problems. Commentators on Eurotwitter usually limit themselves to 'threatened to break international law in a limited way', ie a comment from a junior Parliamentarian being hung on BJ.
The one that interests me is the sense of "we are the masters now". I agree with that one, and it leads to negligence / lack of thoroughness, which imo is the one that will get BJ in the end.
You seem to have become an apologist for shabby behaviour by the government.
The attempted prorogation created an outrage when it was first mooted, even if only later found to be illegal.
As for Northern Ireland, it is pretty clear that Boris and Frost never intended to honour the NIP. They negotiated in bad faith.
They have honoured the NIP. The EU negotiated in bad faith, they've not agreed a Trusted Trader scheme.
Since there's been no Trusted Trader Scheme, the NIP has created difficulties that allow the safeguarding element of the NIP to be invoked. There's nothing "bad faith" about that, its the whole frigging point of having a safeguarding element in the Protocol.
Why bother having a safeguarding article in the Protocol if you're not prepared to use it?
According to the research I have done a Trusted Trader Scheme was agreed in january 2021. It was estimated to cover 98% of our goods.
The concept of the trusted trader scheme was agreed - but the EU side disagreed with the actuality of it, saying there were too many companies wanting to be involved, so it’s not been implemented.
Implementing what the EU have already agreed to, does indeed make 98% of the NI problem go away.
My wife is much improved this morning, to the point where she is currently in the kitchen making a cake.
It will be my turn to feel like crap for a day in December. Good to see that the powers that be have realised that it is a good idea to let people book their booster ahead of the due date. Imagine if you weren't allowed to phone the garage until after your MOT had already expired. That's the system for booking your booster.
They have made a total horlicks of the booster campaign so far.
AIUI it was taken out of the hands of the local NHS management, which had run the initial campaign very well indeed.
Other way around, the initial campaign was run by a private company who created the provisioning service, text alerts and online booking system. The NHS is in charge of it this time from end to end and unsurprisingly they've gone back to sending out letters and relying on GPs. My guess is that the Saj has brought back the private company to run the online booking system again.
Locally, certainly, the service back in the early part of the year was largely GP's, or consortia of GPs. Now it's a mish-mash. Locally again, GP's seem to be out of the loop.
Ah, I understand now, you were referring to the initial vaccination effort. I remember there being cries of how crap that was at the start, too.
Possibly before Christmas, but afterwards it seemed to click into a smooth operation. Of course, for all of us, our own experience can easily colour our opinion.
My wife is much improved this morning, to the point where she is currently in the kitchen making a cake.
It will be my turn to feel like crap for a day in December. Good to see that the powers that be have realised that it is a good idea to let people book their booster ahead of the due date. Imagine if you weren't allowed to phone the garage until after your MOT had already expired. That's the system for booking your booster.
They have made a total horlicks of the booster campaign so far.
AIUI it was taken out of the hands of the local NHS management, which had run the initial campaign very well indeed.
Other way around, the initial campaign was run by a private company who created the provisioning service, text alerts and online booking system. The NHS is in charge of it this time from end to end and unsurprisingly they've gone back to sending out letters and relying on GPs. My guess is that the Saj has brought back the private company to run the online booking system again.
Locally, certainly, the service back in the early part of the year was largely GP's, or consortia of GPs. Now it's a mish-mash. Locally again, GP's seem to be out of the loop.
It's the online booking system and provisioning service that was the big innovation which the NHS decided not to bother with this time. That decision seems to have been reversed by the Saj because people are now being provisioned a dose in advance of eligibility which is how the old system worked. Relying on letters is also a tell tale sign that it's the same failed NHS thinking involved.
See my earlier post about individual experience. My wife and I are both registered with the same practice. I've had a text from the NHS, she's had no communication whatsoever and when she inquired of the local surgery was told that they 'had no idea'. So we went on line and booked. We've both booked for the same day, which, in the light of comments from other Pb-ers might be a mistake. However, we're going on a Friday so any weekend shopping will have been done!
King Cole, a campaign to shift benefits to be contributory (or even residence based but requiring X years legal residence) would be a great way to defang migration/free movement from a pro-EU perspective.
Never going to happen, though.
I'm not so sure about that. I could foresee a situation some years down the line where a Labour government, or even a Tory one, wanted, largely for economic reasons, to increase the mobility of labour between the UK and the EU. Free movement with no strings attached would be a no-no, but a system based on the right to move as long as you are working and not claiming benefits is not implausible.
On the EU side, external immigration policy is devolved to the member states rather than being an EU competence, so the UK would need to negotiate bilateral treaties with specific nations, or else act unilaterally.
Comments
Or are they just folk devils of your imagination?
And, of course, it helps that we have a government mired in sleaze.
It is not entirely clear how far down the road to Damascus he is.
It will just make the Boris haters even more mad.. consumed by hate rather than doing something about it.
The Tories are the only option right now, dislikeable as they are. Labour are a shambles and with "Scumspeak" Rayner about, its not going to change anytime soon. What are Labour doing about making themselves electable? SFA IMHO.
Does that help
(I’m not even sure I know what it is at present, although of course I expect they are very open to rejoining while aware this is unlikely any time soon).
We all want honesty in politics and the lib dems policy is disingenuous as they want to rejoin
Be honest and say so, they would take quite some seats down south
It suits the Tories to have created this electoral golden calf of course, though I'd say it has nowhere near the same religious power the NHS has managed to accumulate.
The idea that there is a "rejoin by stealth" can only really be believed if you have zero understanding of the process.
FBPE and similar do not accept we have left, but it is not perfect and needs improving while remaining outside the EU
Never going to happen, though.
Once they realise that Brexit is a damaging turd which needs to be mitigated against, we can all move forward.
FBPE and many others do not accept we have left, as they move heaven and earth to change back to membership
I think you're attracted to the idea of them adopting a rejoin policy because you think it'll drive votes towards the Conservatives. And you'd be right, but I think you're the one who's being sneaky here, not the Lib Dems.
Democracies reverse policy all the time. It's an important way that democratic politics isn't like making babies.
Why the fear of reversing this?
"In a passionately argued debate last September, conference resolved that the party should support a longer-term objective of UK membership of the the EU, but we rejected a proposal for an immediate campaign to reverse Brexit, which, it was argued, was more likely to alienate voters sick of the recent history of Brexit-inspired division and bitterness. Conference also called for the closest possible alignment between the UK and the EU on trade, security, environmental, social, judicial, educational and scientific issues."
A policy for which I would certainly vote.
I’m as Remainer as they come, in one of the Remaineryest seats in the country. I am not “FBPE” and I don’t know any.
FBPE are one or two people on Twitter, that’s it.
So if you base your worldview on reacting against FBPE, you are going to end up in some strange places.
Politics needs frank and honest positions and as a side issue I think they would do quite well
It may be that all those property dealings in Liverpool were above board, and that the former Mayor and others have been falsely accused of impropriety, and that they are victims of a bungled police investigation.
Johnson reminds me of the skier in that Charles Adams cartoon, somehow he doesn't collide with the tree and continues on his downward descent.
Can you tell us what is dishonest about it?
It is not clever, is wrong and inexcusable
Negative.
Phew.
...One more chorus of Rule Britannia!!
Perhaps you think they must be lying because you find it too sensible? In which case, please try to remember that every party is capable of getting some things right. Sometimes a party you don't like can say sensible things without it being a ruse.
I notice that even Bozo's cheerleaders at the Express seem to be turning against him, judging by their front page this morning.
After ignoring the Paterson affair for a couple of days they've realised which way the wind is blowing.
Expect to see front pages saying how wonderful The Truss is over the coming weeks.
I would just comment that a time may come when we do rejoin but I doubt that will be in my lifetime
We have to improve the deal but that takes two sides to come to the table and the EU to accept we have left and not to continue it's desire for punishment
Re-education required!
And to answer your question without any need of any thought - Constitutional reform.
He is one of the dullest, most nakedly partisan posters on this forum. A sheep.
I find it very disconcerting that we need to be so vigilant to keep our PM in check. His instincts are all wrong. He needs to be evicted and replaced with someone whom we can trust to at least try to do the right thing. There are dozens of far more suitable people in the Conservative Party.
EuCo have been pursuing EU-US initiatives, because they are aiming to portray themselves as the Third Superpower.
US - I haven't been watching them in detail.
I'm not actually sure where we are on the £100bn finance target, or its precise definition.
There's some good complementary things that have happened. The financial institutions commitment looks good, as does the methane one. The methane is interesting in adopting a 2020 baseline, whilst many European countries had already achieved major reductions before this date - so for many in Europe it is now the hard yards. I am not clear why the UK has reduced this fastest, unless it is significantly coal.
I think that the Methane target will give you a big lever, Nick, as a lot of what is left in Europe relate to farming, and seem to be much higher in places like the NL and Denmark where they are very big on industrial farming. Graph below. I think that much of what has gone relate to coal, or for the UK flaring from oil platforms.
My wife is much improved this morning, to the point where she is currently in the kitchen making a cake.
It will be my turn to feel like crap for a day in December. Good to see that the powers that be have realised that it is a good idea to let people book their booster ahead of the due date. Imagine if you weren't allowed to phone the garage until after your MOT had already expired. That's the system for booking your booster.
It was doing well before?
I wish that instead of these rather embarrassing lovers tiffs you would explain what first attracted to Boris and why despite constant let downs the flame never dims!
Now it's a mish-mash. Locally again, GP's seem to be out of the loop.
(The Hill)
To be fair, someone has to
Implementing what the EU have already agreed to, does indeed make 98% of the NI problem go away.
Of course, for all of us, our own experience can easily colour our opinion.
We've both booked for the same day, which, in the light of comments from other Pb-ers might be a mistake. However, we're going on a Friday so any weekend shopping will have been done!