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Midterms 2022: The writing’s on the wall – politicalbetting.com

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  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 35,989
    In the 90s, Major points out he set up a committee to take on corruption - Johnson sets up a committee to defend it. Stark and damming indictment of Johnson’s time as PM.
    https://twitter.com/CPJElmore/status/1456900812618272772
  • Mr. xP, I'm not a fan of the oaf we have as PM, but isn't Major wrong on a straightforward factual basis?

    The attempted prorogation did not occur. The triggering of Article 16 is within the scope of the treaty and the Protocol.
  • FlatlanderFlatlander Posts: 4,664
    edited November 2021
    Scott_xP said:

    Sir John Major - As a conservative my whole life, I’m concerned about how govt is behaving - much of what they’re doing is v unconservative in behaviour. There’s a general whiff of ‘we are the masters now’ about their behaviour & I think it’s cutting through to public & it has to stop
    https://twitter.com/sima_kotecha/status/1456901922808606721

    I thought his Today interview was a classic instance of BDS. It started off as a perfectly reasonable commentary on the PM screwing up, but gradually deteriorated into a ranty ranty scream about Brexit. It needed the shepherd's crook treatment about halfway through.
  • Scott_xP said:
    For once I agree with @Scott_P post
  • Scott_xP said:
    Well that plays into the notion that she's a partisan actor and not a neutral arbiter.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,347

    Mr. Romford, aye, and at one stage iconoclasts held sway in the Eastern Roman Empire.

    One of the great things about IPSOS-MORI's How Britain voted series is that you can track how the voting habits of particular age cohorts change over time.

    Back in 2001, Labour led the Conservatives among 18-34 year olds by 46% to 26%. And, I can remember plenty of arguments at the time that the Conservatives were just going to run out of voters. Fast forward to 2019, and the Conservatives lead 42% to 34% among 35-54 year olds.

    And, with the exception of gay marriage, I don't really think it was down to the Conservatives moving left over that period. The Conservatives moved very much right, on the EU. UKIP managed to grow the overall right wing vote among most age cohorts, which then coalesced around the Conservative party,
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 63,030
    edited November 2021

    Scott_xP said:
    Well that plays into the notion that she's a partisan actor and not a neutral arbiter.
    I think that refers to Chris Bryant otherwise it is out of order

    Though I agree that JRM should go
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,817
    Foxy said:

    felix said:

    rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Long time reader, first time caller...

    rcs1000 said:

    MaxPB said:

    rcs1000 said:

    MaxPB said:

    IanB2 said:

    Leon said:

    For the first time in a long time (ever?) Worldometer reports more German new cases than British


    35.806

    over

    34,029

    That can't be right. iSAGE have assured us that we are doing appallingly compared to europe.

    e.g.

    Danny Altmann
    @Daltmann10
    ·
    Nov 2
    Hard to emphasise sufficiently the importance and impact of these points. I’m often asked why UK is fairing abysmally compared to mainland Europe.
    So the hypothesis is, it’s down the the weather (climate) and most of the precautions are now of negligible real value.
    Which is why it was the correct strategy to run hot in summer and autumn to build up natural immunity in the "won't vaccinate" cohort. No one was ever really able to explain what displacement of cases would get us in June and July when we were going for full unlockdown and in the end no answer was ever given, just screeching about being worse than Europe and other unnecessary politicisation of the issue. The people who wanted neverending NPIs got their wish in the EU and those countries have got no way out and chances are loads of them will have to go into pretty tough lockdown measures similar to last year because there isn't enough natural immunity to supplement diluted/waning vaccine immunity.

    The people of Europe have been badly let down by their governments and been fed a diet of fear to keep them in line and critical of countries who have made the lead to endemic COVID like the UK has done. I have friends in Italy who don't want to come to the UK because they think it's a COVID wasteland where people are dying in the streets. Their officials feed them this constant bullshit about how reaching herd immunity is impossible so will have to live with permanent NPIs. The major worry in Italy is that the UK gets past the herd immunity threshold in the next two to three weeks and we're down to a trivial number of cases over Xmas and suddenly the Italian public wake up to the fact that they've been sold on a completely false pretence.
    That's not just a European story. Fox News did a piece earlier this week about how Britain is struggling with a third wave, and how American vaccines (Moderna) were better than the British ones.
    Weird, I had an American vaccine and my wife did as well! What's very odd is that everyone wants to shit on the UK. I think there is a lot of fear that we've chosen the right path and now it's too late for them to do the same thing so need to try and justify to themselves that we've fucked up. For those of us living through the "disaster" it's barely been noticeable. Now that government data shows cases falling we're also at minimal risk of having plan b shoved on us too.

    I was looking at our own data model of cases today and it was saying an average of 30k per week in December for England.
    Macron is doing a covid address to the nation on Tuesday, so it will be interesting to see what he announces.
    France is now allowing everyone who's six months since their second vaccine jab to get the booster. I wouldn't be surprised if he introduces measures to encourage people to get it.
    Does he not realise the damage this is doing to poorer countries, or does he not care? In Africa 9% - nine percent - have had a dose.
    Macron was elected to serve the people of France. As a general rule, when you forget to whom you answer, you rapidly end up out of a job.
    Sure. But is there any significant benefit to giving people - at least in lower risk groups - a third dose? Is there even significant demand for a third dose? There was clamour for the original two-dose regimen, so it's understandable that got rolled out to all adults and even to some children - but it strikes me that whilst that was the people saying "we want a vaccine" this is the politicians saying "you should have a booster".
    (1) There are plenty of vaccination regimes people take today with are three or more doses, such as HPV or Hepititis B.

    (2) There is ample evidence that protection from CV19 - particularly thanks to Delta - wanes if you have two doses close together.

    (3) There is approximately a 10-fold increase in antibody levels once one is given a third dose.

    It is highly likely that we will all take Covid booster shots every couple of years, probably bundled up with one's annual flu vaccine.

    Even if this wasn't true, it's still not the case that vaccines are fungible. Most of Africa lacks the infrastructure to distribute the Moderna or Pfizer mRNA vaccines (which is pretty much all the inventory in Europe).
    (1) is true - but these were supposed to be two doses and done. To take a personal example, I managed to convince my wife (who's in a vulnerable group) to get the two doses - but to get the booster is an uphill task. She doesn't want to have to go to get another dose every six months for the rest of her life, and that's quite understandable.

    The last point is fair - I had forgotten how much damage Macron (amongst others, but he was one of the worst culprits) did by demonising AZ.
    You should remember the vaccines are being distributed rapidly with a much smaller gap than normal to cover the whole trial and testing process. Therefore it's all really part of a giant experiment and we simply cannot yet know the optimum amount of dose and number of doses for sure. That could take several years to be determined. I'm not sure anyone seriously thought or claimed that 2 doses would give protection in perpetuity.
    I note that our government has dropped the Astra Zenica now. All boosters are Pfizer.
    Just got a Moderna one, actually, here in Scotland yesterday. Somewhat ropy, but not as bad as Mrs C - still less some PBers.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,582
    Dura_Ace said:

    Is the price of petrol going to be a political issue soon? I picked a hell of a week to trade my F80 M3 for an F02 Alpina B7 Allrad (21 mpg).

    Unless it’s for a long daily commute (in which case hope you’ve got deep pockets for running costs!), any increase in petrol prices will be dwarfed by the rising value of an F02 Alpina B7.
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    moonshine said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Sir John Major:
    "This government has done a number of things that have concerned me deeply: they have broken the law, the illegal prorogation of parliament. They have broken treaties, I have in mind the Northern Ireland Protocol. They have broken their word on many occasions."

    https://twitter.com/ChrisMasonBBC/status/1456899066604949505

    Bore off John, a total failure of a PM should be embarrassed giving public criticism of another.
    The bitter Remainers will never get over losing. History’s longest sulk
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,817

    Scott_xP said:
    Well that plays into the notion that she's a partisan actor and not a neutral arbiter.
    I think that refers to Chris Bryant otherwise it is out of order

    Though I agree that JRM should go
    Indeed. The headline is misleading. First para: "Jacob Rees-Mogg should resign following the botched attempt to rig the standards system for his friend Owen Paterson, the chairman of the Commons Standards Committee has said."
  • Mr. xP, I'm not a fan of the oaf we have as PM, but isn't Major wrong on a straightforward factual basis?

    The attempted prorogation did not occur. The triggering of Article 16 is within the scope of the treaty and the Protocol.

    Didn't the prorogation happen (MPs were sent home) before the Supreme Court unhappened it?
  • Scott_xP said:
    Well that plays into the notion that she's a partisan actor and not a neutral arbiter.
    I think that refers to Chris Bryant otherwise it is out of order

    Though I agree that JRM should go
    Well if "standards chief" refers to a Labour MP playing party politics then that's its own issue too.
  • Northern_AlNorthern_Al Posts: 8,375

    Scott_xP said:
    Well that plays into the notion that she's a partisan actor and not a neutral arbiter.
    It's not like you not to read the article you're commenting on, is it? It's Chris Bryant, not Stone.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,817

    Scott_xP said:
    Well that plays into the notion that she's a partisan actor and not a neutral arbiter.
    I think that refers to Chris Bryant otherwise it is out of order

    Though I agree that JRM should go
    Well if "standards chief" refers to a Labour MP playing party politics then that's its own issue too.
    Given how many Tories on PB are unimpressed by Messrs Johnson and R-M, that is pretty much scraping a hole in the bottom of the barrel. You'd claim that any criticism of the Tories was party politics and therefore can be dismissed.
  • Scott_xP said:
    Well that plays into the notion that she's a partisan actor and not a neutral arbiter.
    I think that refers to Chris Bryant otherwise it is out of order

    Though I agree that JRM should go
    Well if "standards chief" refers to a Labour MP playing party politics then that's its own issue too.
    The article refers to Chris Bryant, chair of the commons standards committee
  • Mr. Romford, hmm... I thought there was the judgement before anything actually happened, but I stand corrected if not.
  • Scott_xP said:
    Well that plays into the notion that she's a partisan actor and not a neutral arbiter.
    I think that refers to Chris Bryant otherwise it is out of order

    Though I agree that JRM should go
    Well if "standards chief" refers to a Labour MP playing party politics then that's its own issue too.
    The article refers to Chris Bryant, chair of the commons standards committee
    Indeed but I was replying to the text quoted here which referred to "standards chief".

    Jacob Rees-Mogg should quit over botched attempt to rip-up watchdog, Labour MP says has a different ring to it, doesn't it?
  • Great interview with Lou Macari on R4 his hands-on approach to homelessness.
    Who’d have thought say 10 years ago that football would be a platform for individual & collective decency while..er..other sports would be revealed as sinkholes of arseholery?
  • Scott_xP said:
    Well that plays into the notion that she's a partisan actor and not a neutral arbiter.
    I think that refers to Chris Bryant otherwise it is out of order

    Though I agree that JRM should go
    Well if "standards chief" refers to a Labour MP playing party politics then that's its own issue too.
    The article refers to Chris Bryant, chair of the commons standards committee
    Indeed but I was replying to the text quoted here which referred to "standards chief".

    Jacob Rees-Mogg should quit over botched attempt to rip-up watchdog, Labour MP says has a different ring to it, doesn't it?
    It was very misleading
  • MattWMattW Posts: 23,135
    edited November 2021
    Scott_xP said:

    Sir John Major:
    "This government has done a number of things that have concerned me deeply: they have broken the law, the illegal prorogation of parliament. They have broken treaties, I have in mind the Northern Ireland Protocol. They have broken their word on many occasions."

    https://twitter.com/ChrisMasonBBC/status/1456899066604949505

    Interesting comments from Lord Major, though he's picked up too many EuCo talking points imo.

    The stuff about "illegal prorogation of Parliament" is rhetoric imo - the 'breach of the law' was declared later, and reversed when known, and I still find the judgement questionable. "Broken treaties" - have they? He means the NIP, and certain elements have been delayed by both sides - UK required rapidity of change; EU Trusted Trader scheme which would solve many problems.
    Commentators on Eurotwitter usually limit themselves to 'threatened to break international law in a limited way', ie a comment from a junior Parliamentarian being hung on BJ.

    The one that interests me is the sense of "we are the masters now". I agree with that one, and it leads to negligence / lack of thoroughness, which imo is the one that will get BJ in the end.
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830

    isam said:

    Booster update. I had a Pfizer booster yesterday at 9.30, original doses were both AZ. Felt fine until 10 pm then overcome with feeling shit, and went to bed. Have just had the worst night in years. Headache, sweaty, everything wrong. Still have the headache, and feeling under the weather but probably over the worst.

    If that’s what Covid is like, no thanks...

    My first AZ was like that. The worst I have felt in my entire life. I made the mistake of trying to walk to the kitchen to get some tablets and passed out. That was as bad as it got though, and although I didn’t feel right for a week after, it was just headache, dehydration and a touch of anxiety, borne of the passing out I reckon.

    Stay in bed and watch tv or listen to some nice music is my advice!
    Sadly I need four new tyres and two brake pads this morning... Now wishing I hadn’t booked it for the day after the jab!
    Are you a car?
    Clue in username
  • Scott_xP said:
    Well that plays into the notion that she's a partisan actor and not a neutral arbiter.
    You should read stuff before expending oodles of pixels upon it.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 23,135

    isam said:

    Booster update. I had a Pfizer booster yesterday at 9.30, original doses were both AZ. Felt fine until 10 pm then overcome with feeling shit, and went to bed. Have just had the worst night in years. Headache, sweaty, everything wrong. Still have the headache, and feeling under the weather but probably over the worst.

    If that’s what Covid is like, no thanks...

    My first AZ was like that. The worst I have felt in my entire life. I made the mistake of trying to walk to the kitchen to get some tablets and passed out. That was as bad as it got though, and although I didn’t feel right for a week after, it was just headache, dehydration and a touch of anxiety, borne of the passing out I reckon.

    Stay in bed and watch tv or listen to some nice music is my advice!
    Sadly I need four new tyres and two brake pads this morning... Now wishing I hadn’t booked it for the day after the jab!
    Good for you on supporting local garages, rather than having eg Asda Tyres come to your house.
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 13,677
    Sandpit said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    Is the price of petrol going to be a political issue soon? I picked a hell of a week to trade my F80 M3 for an F02 Alpina B7 Allrad (21 mpg).

    Unless it’s for a long daily commute (in which case hope you’ve got deep pockets for running costs!), any increase in petrol prices will be dwarfed by the rising value of an F02 Alpina B7.
    As usual with my purchases... I bought it off eBay very cheaply for crack money and it is not without issues.

    It has the brakes off the special armoured head-of-government 760Li which are the biggest brakes BMW have ever made though. So that's as cool as fuck,
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 21,643
    Glad to see Major speaking up, whilst Boris’ supporters here circle the wagons.
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 13,677
    MattW said:

    isam said:

    Booster update. I had a Pfizer booster yesterday at 9.30, original doses were both AZ. Felt fine until 10 pm then overcome with feeling shit, and went to bed. Have just had the worst night in years. Headache, sweaty, everything wrong. Still have the headache, and feeling under the weather but probably over the worst.

    If that’s what Covid is like, no thanks...

    My first AZ was like that. The worst I have felt in my entire life. I made the mistake of trying to walk to the kitchen to get some tablets and passed out. That was as bad as it got though, and although I didn’t feel right for a week after, it was just headache, dehydration and a touch of anxiety, borne of the passing out I reckon.

    Stay in bed and watch tv or listen to some nice music is my advice!
    Sadly I need four new tyres and two brake pads this morning... Now wishing I hadn’t booked it for the day after the jab!
    Good for you on supporting local garages, rather than having eg Asda Tyres come to your house.
    You can do brake pads yourself with the contents of the cutlery drawer for tools.

    DIY tyre fitting is possible with a sledgehammer and ratchet straps if you've been eating your veg,
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,582
    Dura_Ace said:

    Sandpit said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    Is the price of petrol going to be a political issue soon? I picked a hell of a week to trade my F80 M3 for an F02 Alpina B7 Allrad (21 mpg).

    Unless it’s for a long daily commute (in which case hope you’ve got deep pockets for running costs!), any increase in petrol prices will be dwarfed by the rising value of an F02 Alpina B7.
    As usual with my purchases... I bought it off eBay very cheaply for crack money and it is not without issues.

    It has the brakes off the special armoured head-of-government 760Li which are the biggest brakes BMW have ever made though. So that's as cool as fuck,
    You should start a Youtube channel, buying creap crap versions of collectible cars and doing them up, in the vain hope of turning a profit. Like a British Tyler Hoover.
  • Ms. Kirk (Mr? Sorry), I agree but would add to 'without being asked' that on one such occasion we were specifically promised said vote during an election campaign.
  • Dura_Ace said:

    MattW said:

    isam said:

    Booster update. I had a Pfizer booster yesterday at 9.30, original doses were both AZ. Felt fine until 10 pm then overcome with feeling shit, and went to bed. Have just had the worst night in years. Headache, sweaty, everything wrong. Still have the headache, and feeling under the weather but probably over the worst.

    If that’s what Covid is like, no thanks...

    My first AZ was like that. The worst I have felt in my entire life. I made the mistake of trying to walk to the kitchen to get some tablets and passed out. That was as bad as it got though, and although I didn’t feel right for a week after, it was just headache, dehydration and a touch of anxiety, borne of the passing out I reckon.

    Stay in bed and watch tv or listen to some nice music is my advice!
    Sadly I need four new tyres and two brake pads this morning... Now wishing I hadn’t booked it for the day after the jab!
    Good for you on supporting local garages, rather than having eg Asda Tyres come to your house.
    You can do brake pads yourself with the contents of the cutlery drawer for tools.

    DIY tyre fitting is possible with a sledgehammer and ratchet straps if you've been eating your veg,
    You were so preoccupied with whether or not you could, you didn’t stop to think if you should…
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,582
    algarkirk said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Sir John Major:
    "This government has done a number of things that have concerned me deeply: they have broken the law, the illegal prorogation of parliament. They have broken treaties, I have in mind the Northern Ireland Protocol. They have broken their word on many occasions."

    https://twitter.com/ChrisMasonBBC/status/1456899066604949505

    I greatly admire Sir John Major, but any thoughtful analysis of how we got to Brexit, and Boris as the only leader who could get it done, and it only doable by a fair bit of conjuring will have to go back in time.

    The top problems were: a SM including FOM; the democratic deficit in the EU; the sense of the EU heading towards a sort of state; the Euro; and the failure over decades to consult the people over great constitutional change.

    For this John Major has huge responsibility. He was a key player for many of the crucial years. And by the use of referendums he (and Mrs T and T Blair) could have avoided all this, and created a more modest EU.

    This, and not Brexit, is the greatest post war policy failure - the view that the UK population could be taken into an ever closer union without being asked.
    In a parallel world, Sir John would be an invaluable part of sorting out the issues remaining in Northern Ireland. Sadly, he’s decided to join those carping from the sidelines, rather than playing the role of the elder statesman.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,424
    isam said:

    moonshine said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Sir John Major:
    "This government has done a number of things that have concerned me deeply: they have broken the law, the illegal prorogation of parliament. They have broken treaties, I have in mind the Northern Ireland Protocol. They have broken their word on many occasions."

    https://twitter.com/ChrisMasonBBC/status/1456899066604949505

    Bore off John, a total failure of a PM should be embarrassed giving public criticism of another.
    The bitter Remainers will never get over losing. History’s longest sulk
    Not up to Ted Heath's. Yet anyway, and I hope we rejoin before that 'target' is reached.
  • Alistair said:

    Superb news on Biden's infrastructure Bill.

    Any brick in the wall that can help stop Trump is good.

    It kills the BBB bill which is the bill that contains the majority of his campaign promises.

    The Dems are such idiots. If they are going to blow up part of his agenda to get a little temporary positive headlines the time to do it was a week before the Governor election, not a week after.
    Not sure it kills BBB. On hold until 15th Nov vote.

    "In the end, enough progressives accepted a written commitment, released after 10 p.m., from five centrist colleagues that they would back the social safety net and climate package in mid-November, as long as the numbers add up."

    NY Times
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,368
    Sandpit said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    Sandpit said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    Is the price of petrol going to be a political issue soon? I picked a hell of a week to trade my F80 M3 for an F02 Alpina B7 Allrad (21 mpg).

    Unless it’s for a long daily commute (in which case hope you’ve got deep pockets for running costs!), any increase in petrol prices will be dwarfed by the rising value of an F02 Alpina B7.
    As usual with my purchases... I bought it off eBay very cheaply for crack money and it is not without issues.

    It has the brakes off the special armoured head-of-government 760Li which are the biggest brakes BMW have ever made though. So that's as cool as fuck,
    You should start a Youtube channel, buying creap crap versions of collectible cars and doing them up, in the vain hope of turning a profit. Like a British Tyler Hoover.
    That is some monster DA has acquired!

    Never heard of Tyler Hooper. Samcrac (aka Jimmy Bondo) is the man! A CoPart customer who claims his exotic Ferrari, Aston Martin and Lamborghini write,-off purchases are financed by his "Stepmom" who happens to be internet porn star (I've only ever seen her on Samcrac videos) Cory Chase.
  • geoffwgeoffw Posts: 8,708
    John Major's interview was quite entertaining, inadvertently on his part.
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 13,677
    Sandpit said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    Sandpit said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    Is the price of petrol going to be a political issue soon? I picked a hell of a week to trade my F80 M3 for an F02 Alpina B7 Allrad (21 mpg).

    Unless it’s for a long daily commute (in which case hope you’ve got deep pockets for running costs!), any increase in petrol prices will be dwarfed by the rising value of an F02 Alpina B7.
    As usual with my purchases... I bought it off eBay very cheaply for crack money and it is not without issues.

    It has the brakes off the special armoured head-of-government 760Li which are the biggest brakes BMW have ever made though. So that's as cool as fuck,
    You should start a Youtube channel, buying creap crap versions of collectible cars and doing them up, in the vain hope of turning a profit. Like a British Tyler Hoover.
    I am quite friendly with a guy who does this in Germany and have discovered through my conversations with him that the filming makes everything take ten times longer so you've got to be really into that side of it.

    He's got an E65 B7 so he's even braver than me.
  • Fysics_TeacherFysics_Teacher Posts: 6,285
    edited November 2021

    Ms. Kirk (Mr? Sorry), I agree but would add to 'without being asked' that on one such occasion we were specifically promised said vote during an election campaign.

    Perhaps Internet forums are a place where stating one’s pronouns would make sense…
  • franklynfranklyn Posts: 319
    It comes to something when John Major has become, de facto, the leader of the opposition. BBC Radio 4, 8.10 am.
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,523
    Nuanced assessment of COP so far - not wonderful, but not terrible either. I'll be up there for part of this week.

    https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2021/nov/06/cop26-week-one-the-impression-of-progress-but-not-nearly-enough
  • Jonathan said:

    Glad to see Major speaking up, whilst Boris’ supporters here circle the wagons.

    Yes but remember we support Brexit and that isn't going to change
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,368
    franklyn said:

    It comes to something when John Major has become, de facto, the leader of the opposition. BBC Radio 4, 8.10 am.

    Not so fast!

    The Opposition including (late in the day, Starmer) have had a good and effective week. Hat tip in particular to Rayner and Lady Fugee.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 21,643

    Jonathan said:

    Glad to see Major speaking up, whilst Boris’ supporters here circle the wagons.

    Yes but remember we support Brexit and that isn't going to change
    Brexit trumps everything for you, yes we know.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,582
    edited November 2021
    Dura_Ace said:

    Sandpit said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    Sandpit said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    Is the price of petrol going to be a political issue soon? I picked a hell of a week to trade my F80 M3 for an F02 Alpina B7 Allrad (21 mpg).

    Unless it’s for a long daily commute (in which case hope you’ve got deep pockets for running costs!), any increase in petrol prices will be dwarfed by the rising value of an F02 Alpina B7.
    As usual with my purchases... I bought it off eBay very cheaply for crack money and it is not without issues.

    It has the brakes off the special armoured head-of-government 760Li which are the biggest brakes BMW have ever made though. So that's as cool as fuck,
    You should start a Youtube channel, buying creap crap versions of collectible cars and doing them up, in the vain hope of turning a profit. Like a British Tyler Hoover.
    I am quite friendly with a guy who does this in Germany and have discovered through my conversations with him that the filming makes everything take ten times longer so you've got to be really into that side of it.

    He's got an E65 B7 so he's even braver than me.
    Of course it does, but it’s the filming that’s the ‘work’ part of it all, that pays the bills.

    As you know, you’re not really going to make money on the cars themselves, unless you get lucky with a quick fix to a non-runner or find a rare limited edition of something.

    An E65 B7 is a proper brave pill.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,785
    edited November 2021
    Mr. Teacher, pish!
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,617
    Major denouncing Frost’s negotiation style for going in week after week and taking something while giving nothing away was quite telling.
  • Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Glad to see Major speaking up, whilst Boris’ supporters here circle the wagons.

    Yes but remember we support Brexit and that isn't going to change
    Brexit trumps everything for you, yes we know.
    It does for very many and you should ask why no UK party, ex the SNP and Plaid, support rejoining, unless of course the Lib Dems finally discover honesty and say they will campaign to rejoin, not some silly fudge
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,582

    Sandpit said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    Sandpit said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    Is the price of petrol going to be a political issue soon? I picked a hell of a week to trade my F80 M3 for an F02 Alpina B7 Allrad (21 mpg).

    Unless it’s for a long daily commute (in which case hope you’ve got deep pockets for running costs!), any increase in petrol prices will be dwarfed by the rising value of an F02 Alpina B7.
    As usual with my purchases... I bought it off eBay very cheaply for crack money and it is not without issues.

    It has the brakes off the special armoured head-of-government 760Li which are the biggest brakes BMW have ever made though. So that's as cool as fuck,
    You should start a Youtube channel, buying creap crap versions of collectible cars and doing them up, in the vain hope of turning a profit. Like a British Tyler Hoover.
    That is some monster DA has acquired!

    Never heard of Tyler Hooper. Samcrac (aka Jimmy Bondo) is the man! A CoPart customer who claims his exotic Ferrari, Aston Martin and Lamborghini write,-off purchases are financed by his "Stepmom" who happens to be internet porn star (I've only ever seen her on Samcrac videos) Cory Chase.
    Used to follow Samcrac, but he went a bit mad with the, err, adult entertainer stuff. There’s a few good Americans doing car channels.

    Hoovie https://youtube.com/c/HooviesGarage
  • Mr. Teacher, pish!

    Not all Physics teachers are male (though, to be fair, a fairly high proportion are).

    How many female Morris Dancers are there?
  • Major denouncing Frost’s negotiation style for going in week after week and taking something while giving nothing away was quite telling.

    See how much "goodwill" and reform of the CAP Mr Blair got for giving up a chunk of the rebate.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 21,643
    edited November 2021

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Glad to see Major speaking up, whilst Boris’ supporters here circle the wagons.

    Yes but remember we support Brexit and that isn't going to change
    Brexit trumps everything for you, yes we know.
    It does for very many and you should ask why no UK party, ex the SNP and Plaid, support rejoining, unless of course the Lib Dems finally discover honesty and say they will campaign to rejoin, not some silly fudge
    Why? Brexit isn’t the key issue for me.

    It makes everything a bit harder than it was before, we’re all a bit poorer and seems to be used by its supporters to justify/excuse/deflect from all sorts of poor practices like we saw this week.

    Beyond that 🤷‍♀️

  • Major was rightly furious on a number of issues. Many conservative voters are also furious.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 21,643

    Major was rightly furious on a number of issues. Many conservative voters are also furious.

    It must be hard to be an old school Conservative these days. Not quite as bad as being an old school Republican, but hard to see what you valued being rejected by what was your own tribe.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,582

    Major was rightly furious on a number of issues. Many conservative voters are also furious.

    After a week of ‘sleazy’ stories, who better to remind us all of just how bad it can get.
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 21,298
    MattW said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Sir John Major:
    "This government has done a number of things that have concerned me deeply: they have broken the law, the illegal prorogation of parliament. They have broken treaties, I have in mind the Northern Ireland Protocol. They have broken their word on many occasions."

    https://twitter.com/ChrisMasonBBC/status/1456899066604949505

    Interesting comments from Lord Major, though he's picked up too many EuCo talking points imo.

    The stuff about "illegal prorogation of Parliament" is rhetoric imo - the 'breach of the law' was declared later, and reversed when known, and I still find the judgement questionable. "Broken treaties" - have they? He means the NIP, and certain elements have been delayed by both sides - UK required rapidity of change; EU Trusted Trader scheme which would solve many problems.
    Commentators on Eurotwitter usually limit themselves to 'threatened to break international law in a limited way', ie a comment from a junior Parliamentarian being hung on BJ.

    The one that interests me is the sense of "we are the masters now". I agree with that one, and it leads to negligence / lack of thoroughness, which imo is the one that will get BJ in the end.
    You seem to have become an apologist for shabby behaviour by the government.

    The attempted prorogation created an outrage when it was first mooted, even if only later found to be illegal.

    As for Northern Ireland, it is pretty clear that Boris and Frost never intended to honour the NIP. They negotiated in bad faith.
  • kjhkjh Posts: 11,783

    Booster update. I had a Pfizer booster yesterday at 9.30, original doses were both AZ. Felt fine until 10 pm then overcome with feeling shit, and went to bed. Have just had the worst night in years. Headache, sweaty, everything wrong. Still have the headache, and feeling under the weather but probably over the worst.

    If that’s what Covid is like, no thanks...

    Told you so. You are 1.5 days behind me so I'm guessing you will have a day of being ok but feeling drained in front of you and then hey presto I am as right as rain today other than the arm is still a little sore.
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,454
    I see the Tories have lost their majority on Northumberland County Council.
  • Jonathan said:

    Major was rightly furious on a number of issues. Many conservative voters are also furious.

    It must be hard to be an old school Conservative these days. Not quite as bad as being an old school Republican, but hard to see what you valued being rejected by what was your own tribe.
    For many Conservative voters what they value is not having a Labour government.

    Given the current government’s tax and spending policies you may have a point.
  • franklyn said:

    It comes to something when John Major has become, de facto, the leader of the opposition. BBC Radio 4, 8.10 am.

    Not so fast!

    The Opposition including (late in the day, Starmer) have had a good and effective week. Hat tip in particular to Rayner and Lady Fugee.
    The last week has seen multiple Labour voices attacking the government, rather than each other. It's been coherent, and coherence works.

    It's not rocket science, but it's shocking how rare it has been in recent years.
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 13,677
    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Glad to see Major speaking up, whilst Boris’ supporters here circle the wagons.

    Yes but remember we support Brexit and that isn't going to change
    Brexit trumps everything for you, yes we know.
    It does for very many and you should ask why no UK party, ex the SNP and Plaid, support rejoining, unless of course the Lib Dems finally discover honesty and say they will campaign to rejoin, not some silly fudge
    Why? Brexit isn’t the key issue for me.

    It makes everything a bit harder than it was before, we’re all a bit poorer and seems to be used by its supporters to justify/excuse/deflect from all sorts of poor practices like we saw this week.

    Beyond that 🤷‍♀️

    Johnson understands that the British voter does not do gratitude; so having got Brexit 'done' (for low values of done) is not going to be enough at the next GE. The electoral strategy is going to be to depict the oppostion as wanting to reverse Brexit and that it is only secure with the tories.

    You can see tories on here already starting to push this line.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,368
    Dura_Ace said:

    Sandpit said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    Sandpit said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    Is the price of petrol going to be a political issue soon? I picked a hell of a week to trade my F80 M3 for an F02 Alpina B7 Allrad (21 mpg).

    Unless it’s for a long daily commute (in which case hope you’ve got deep pockets for running costs!), any increase in petrol prices will be dwarfed by the rising value of an F02 Alpina B7.
    As usual with my purchases... I bought it off eBay very cheaply for crack money and it is not without issues.

    It has the brakes off the special armoured head-of-government 760Li which are the biggest brakes BMW have ever made though. So that's as cool as fuck,
    You should start a Youtube channel, buying creap crap versions of collectible cars and doing them up, in the vain hope of turning a profit. Like a British Tyler Hoover.
    I am quite friendly with a guy who does this in Germany and have discovered through my conversations with him that the filming makes everything take ten times longer so you've got to be really into that side of it.

    He's got an E65 B7 so he's even braver than me.
    Off topic

    I'd watch. I check out lots of YouTube car channels. The production values on things like Denis Collins' Coffee Walk are very good, but people like me are happy to watch Nick Swift in a Mini Cooper S jousting with an an Alfa GTV at Goodwood for half an hour- several times over. If the content is interesting enough people like me will watch any old car related s** irrespective of whether the camera is bouncing up and down and left and right.

    I'm watching Dominic Chinea from the Repair Shop restoring a basket case Porsche at the moment. It's quite professional, but production values look quite inexpensive. Oh and I can watch old footage of Jimmy Clark on three wheels in a Lotus Cortina, or John Rhodes tyre-smoking a Mini around Silverstone or Brands Hatch all day long.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,424

    franklyn said:

    It comes to something when John Major has become, de facto, the leader of the opposition. BBC Radio 4, 8.10 am.

    Not so fast!

    The Opposition including (late in the day, Starmer) have had a good and effective week. Hat tip in particular to Rayner and Lady Fugee.
    Isn't it Nugee?
  • Mr. Teacher, a lady who can handle a wiffle stick is one to be treasured.
  • MattW said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Sir John Major:
    "This government has done a number of things that have concerned me deeply: they have broken the law, the illegal prorogation of parliament. They have broken treaties, I have in mind the Northern Ireland Protocol. They have broken their word on many occasions."

    https://twitter.com/ChrisMasonBBC/status/1456899066604949505

    Interesting comments from Lord Major, though he's picked up too many EuCo talking points imo.

    The stuff about "illegal prorogation of Parliament" is rhetoric imo - the 'breach of the law' was declared later, and reversed when known, and I still find the judgement questionable. "Broken treaties" - have they? He means the NIP, and certain elements have been delayed by both sides - UK required rapidity of change; EU Trusted Trader scheme which would solve many problems.
    Commentators on Eurotwitter usually limit themselves to 'threatened to break international law in a limited way', ie a comment from a junior Parliamentarian being hung on BJ.

    The one that interests me is the sense of "we are the masters now". I agree with that one, and it leads to negligence / lack of thoroughness, which imo is the one that will get BJ in the end.
    You seem to have become an apologist for shabby behaviour by the government.

    The attempted prorogation created an outrage when it was first mooted, even if only later found to be illegal.

    As for Northern Ireland, it is pretty clear that Boris and Frost never intended to honour the NIP. They negotiated in bad faith.
    They have honoured the NIP. The EU negotiated in bad faith, they've not agreed a Trusted Trader scheme.

    Since there's been no Trusted Trader Scheme, the NIP has created difficulties that allow the safeguarding element of the NIP to be invoked. There's nothing "bad faith" about that, its the whole frigging point of having a safeguarding element in the Protocol.

    Why bother having a safeguarding article in the Protocol if you're not prepared to use it?
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 21,643
    Dura_Ace said:

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Glad to see Major speaking up, whilst Boris’ supporters here circle the wagons.

    Yes but remember we support Brexit and that isn't going to change
    Brexit trumps everything for you, yes we know.
    It does for very many and you should ask why no UK party, ex the SNP and Plaid, support rejoining, unless of course the Lib Dems finally discover honesty and say they will campaign to rejoin, not some silly fudge
    Why? Brexit isn’t the key issue for me.

    It makes everything a bit harder than it was before, we’re all a bit poorer and seems to be used by its supporters to justify/excuse/deflect from all sorts of poor practices like we saw this week.

    Beyond that 🤷‍♀️

    Johnson understands that the British voter does not do gratitude; so having got Brexit 'done' (for low values of done) is not going to be enough at the next GE. The electoral strategy is going to be to depict the oppostion as wanting to reverse Brexit and that it is only secure with the tories.

    You can see tories on here already starting to push this line.
    Yeah, Boris and his minions want the Brexit wars to continue forever.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,368
    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    Sandpit said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    Is the price of petrol going to be a political issue soon? I picked a hell of a week to trade my F80 M3 for an F02 Alpina B7 Allrad (21 mpg).

    Unless it’s for a long daily commute (in which case hope you’ve got deep pockets for running costs!), any increase in petrol prices will be dwarfed by the rising value of an F02 Alpina B7.
    As usual with my purchases... I bought it off eBay very cheaply for crack money and it is not without issues.

    It has the brakes off the special armoured head-of-government 760Li which are the biggest brakes BMW have ever made though. So that's as cool as fuck,
    You should start a Youtube channel, buying creap crap versions of collectible cars and doing them up, in the vain hope of turning a profit. Like a British Tyler Hoover.
    That is some monster DA has acquired!

    Never heard of Tyler Hooper. Samcrac (aka Jimmy Bondo) is the man! A CoPart customer who claims his exotic Ferrari, Aston Martin and Lamborghini write,-off purchases are financed by his "Stepmom" who happens to be internet porn star (I've only ever seen her on Samcrac videos) Cory Chase.
    Used to follow Samcrac, but he went a bit mad with the, err, adult entertainer stuff. There’s a few good Americans doing car channels.

    Hoovie https://youtube.com/c/HooviesGarage
    Thanks. Samcrac is frustrating because he NEVER finishes ANYTHING.
  • Well said Sir John!
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670

    Alistair said:

    Superb news on Biden's infrastructure Bill.

    Any brick in the wall that can help stop Trump is good.

    It kills the BBB bill which is the bill that contains the majority of his campaign promises.

    The Dems are such idiots. If they are going to blow up part of his agenda to get a little temporary positive headlines the time to do it was a week before the Governor election, not a week after.
    Not sure it kills BBB. On hold until 15th Nov vote.

    "In the end, enough progressives accepted a written commitment, released after 10 p.m., from five centrist colleagues that they would back the social safety net and climate package in mid-November, as long as the numbers add up."

    NY Times
    The numbers will never "add up" for the centrists. They will keep raising objections even if the cbo scoring is favourable
  • kjhkjh Posts: 11,783
    Sandpit said:

    Major was rightly furious on a number of issues. Many conservative voters are also furious.

    After a week of ‘sleazy’ stories, who better to remind us all of just how bad it can get.
    Except we are way beyond where it got with Major. And there are significant differences:

    a) Some of the sleaze then was of the extra marital type, which we don't judge anywhere near so harshly these days thankfully

    b) Major wasn't the focus of any of the sleaze himself (we didn't know of his affair then)

    But I do take your point; it is rather ironic.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,368

    franklyn said:

    It comes to something when John Major has become, de facto, the leader of the opposition. BBC Radio 4, 8.10 am.

    Not so fast!

    The Opposition including (late in the day, Starmer) have had a good and effective week. Hat tip in particular to Rayner and Lady Fugee.
    Isn't it Nugee?
    Oh yeah. The Fugees are a band. My mistake
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,523

    I see the Tories have lost their majority on Northumberland County Council.

    How did that happen?
  • Jonathan said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Glad to see Major speaking up, whilst Boris’ supporters here circle the wagons.

    Yes but remember we support Brexit and that isn't going to change
    Brexit trumps everything for you, yes we know.
    It does for very many and you should ask why no UK party, ex the SNP and Plaid, support rejoining, unless of course the Lib Dems finally discover honesty and say they will campaign to rejoin, not some silly fudge
    Why? Brexit isn’t the key issue for me.

    It makes everything a bit harder than it was before, we’re all a bit poorer and seems to be used by its supporters to justify/excuse/deflect from all sorts of poor practices like we saw this week.

    Beyond that 🤷‍♀️

    Johnson understands that the British voter does not do gratitude; so having got Brexit 'done' (for low values of done) is not going to be enough at the next GE. The electoral strategy is going to be to depict the oppostion as wanting to reverse Brexit and that it is only secure with the tories.

    You can see tories on here already starting to push this line.
    Yeah, Boris and his minions want the Brexit wars to continue forever.
    To be fair, there are a number of remain supporters who seem happy to oblige.
  • kjhkjh Posts: 11,783

    Mr. Teacher, a lady who can handle a wiffle stick is one to be treasured.

    That has made me think of anything but Morris Dancing. Stop it.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 63,030
    edited November 2021
    Sandpit said:

    Major was rightly furious on a number of issues. Many conservative voters are also furious.

    After a week of ‘sleazy’ stories, who better to remind us all of just how bad it can get.
    Err Edwina Curry perhaps
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,454

    I see the Tories have lost their majority on Northumberland County Council.

    How did that happen?
    They had a majority of 1 and one of their councillors has resigned in Hexham. Towards @dixiedean ’s ends
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,424
    Jonathan said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Glad to see Major speaking up, whilst Boris’ supporters here circle the wagons.

    Yes but remember we support Brexit and that isn't going to change
    Brexit trumps everything for you, yes we know.
    It does for very many and you should ask why no UK party, ex the SNP and Plaid, support rejoining, unless of course the Lib Dems finally discover honesty and say they will campaign to rejoin, not some silly fudge
    Why? Brexit isn’t the key issue for me.

    It makes everything a bit harder than it was before, we’re all a bit poorer and seems to be used by its supporters to justify/excuse/deflect from all sorts of poor practices like we saw this week.

    Beyond that 🤷‍♀️

    Johnson understands that the British voter does not do gratitude; so having got Brexit 'done' (for low values of done) is not going to be enough at the next GE. The electoral strategy is going to be to depict the oppostion as wanting to reverse Brexit and that it is only secure with the tories.

    You can see tories on here already starting to push this line.
    Yeah, Boris and his minions want the Brexit wars to continue forever.
    Another stroke of luck for our PM; the shenanigans in Yorkshire CCC have diverted attention from his tawdry activities.
    I'm not surprised, incidentally, at the situation in YCCC; some very unpleasant remarks were reported by Essex supporters after our multi-racial team played there a few years ago.
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 21,298

    MattW said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Sir John Major:
    "This government has done a number of things that have concerned me deeply: they have broken the law, the illegal prorogation of parliament. They have broken treaties, I have in mind the Northern Ireland Protocol. They have broken their word on many occasions."

    https://twitter.com/ChrisMasonBBC/status/1456899066604949505

    Interesting comments from Lord Major, though he's picked up too many EuCo talking points imo.

    The stuff about "illegal prorogation of Parliament" is rhetoric imo - the 'breach of the law' was declared later, and reversed when known, and I still find the judgement questionable. "Broken treaties" - have they? He means the NIP, and certain elements have been delayed by both sides - UK required rapidity of change; EU Trusted Trader scheme which would solve many problems.
    Commentators on Eurotwitter usually limit themselves to 'threatened to break international law in a limited way', ie a comment from a junior Parliamentarian being hung on BJ.

    The one that interests me is the sense of "we are the masters now". I agree with that one, and it leads to negligence / lack of thoroughness, which imo is the one that will get BJ in the end.
    You seem to have become an apologist for shabby behaviour by the government.

    The attempted prorogation created an outrage when it was first mooted, even if only later found to be illegal.

    As for Northern Ireland, it is pretty clear that Boris and Frost never intended to honour the NIP. They negotiated in bad faith.
    They have honoured the NIP. The EU negotiated in bad faith, they've not agreed a Trusted Trader scheme.

    Since there's been no Trusted Trader Scheme, the NIP has created difficulties that allow the safeguarding element of the NIP to be invoked. There's nothing "bad faith" about that, its the whole frigging point of having a safeguarding element in the Protocol.

    Why bother having a safeguarding article in the Protocol if you're not prepared to use it?
    You are arguing something different, which is the legality of Article 16.

    I was talking about whether Boris/Frost negotiated the NIP in good faith.

    It’s pretty obvious they did not.

    This may all work out fine; the U.K. can control many (but not all) facts on the ground. But certainly the government’s reputation for dishonesty (which is the main point here) is further evidenced.
  • Mr. kjh, how could that be? A lacey lady with bells a'jingling, oiling a wiffle stick for a public performance, is simply a part of the wonderful world of morris dancing.
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,523
    kjh said:

    Booster update. I had a Pfizer booster yesterday at 9.30, original doses were both AZ. Felt fine until 10 pm then overcome with feeling shit, and went to bed. Have just had the worst night in years. Headache, sweaty, everything wrong. Still have the headache, and feeling under the weather but probably over the worst.

    If that’s what Covid is like, no thanks...

    Told you so. You are 1.5 days behind me so I'm guessing you will have a day of being ok but feeling drained in front of you and then hey presto I am as right as rain today other than the arm is still a little sore.
    It does vary. I had the Pfizer booster with virtually no side-effects at all (my early shots were Pfizer too though). I think there's a lot of luck in it, but people shouldn't be scared - at worst it's an unconfortable couple of days, beats the hell out of being hospitalised or dead.

    Without going all Macron, it does seem to be gradually clearer that Pfizer is a bit better than AZ (and I believe Moderna is better than either). But they're all keeping most of us well, and that's what matters.
  • MattW said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Sir John Major:
    "This government has done a number of things that have concerned me deeply: they have broken the law, the illegal prorogation of parliament. They have broken treaties, I have in mind the Northern Ireland Protocol. They have broken their word on many occasions."

    https://twitter.com/ChrisMasonBBC/status/1456899066604949505

    Interesting comments from Lord Major, though he's picked up too many EuCo talking points imo.

    The stuff about "illegal prorogation of Parliament" is rhetoric imo - the 'breach of the law' was declared later, and reversed when known, and I still find the judgement questionable. "Broken treaties" - have they? He means the NIP, and certain elements have been delayed by both sides - UK required rapidity of change; EU Trusted Trader scheme which would solve many problems.
    Commentators on Eurotwitter usually limit themselves to 'threatened to break international law in a limited way', ie a comment from a junior Parliamentarian being hung on BJ.

    The one that interests me is the sense of "we are the masters now". I agree with that one, and it leads to negligence / lack of thoroughness, which imo is the one that will get BJ in the end.
    You seem to have become an apologist for shabby behaviour by the government.

    The attempted prorogation created an outrage when it was first mooted, even if only later found to be illegal.

    As for Northern Ireland, it is pretty clear that Boris and Frost never intended to honour the NIP. They negotiated in bad faith.
    They have honoured the NIP. The EU negotiated in bad faith, they've not agreed a Trusted Trader scheme.

    Since there's been no Trusted Trader Scheme, the NIP has created difficulties that allow the safeguarding element of the NIP to be invoked. There's nothing "bad faith" about that, its the whole frigging point of having a safeguarding element in the Protocol.

    Why bother having a safeguarding article in the Protocol if you're not prepared to use it?
    You are arguing something different, which is the legality of Article 16.

    I was talking about whether Boris/Frost negotiated the NIP in good faith.

    It’s pretty obvious they did not.

    This may all work out fine; the U.K. can control many (but not all) facts on the ground. But certainly the government’s reputation for dishonesty (which is the main point here) is further evidenced.
    If “negotiating in good faith” was thinking about what was best for the people of Northern Ireland, I’m fairly certain neither side was.
  • Dura_Ace said:

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Glad to see Major speaking up, whilst Boris’ supporters here circle the wagons.

    Yes but remember we support Brexit and that isn't going to change
    Brexit trumps everything for you, yes we know.
    It does for very many and you should ask why no UK party, ex the SNP and Plaid, support rejoining, unless of course the Lib Dems finally discover honesty and say they will campaign to rejoin, not some silly fudge
    Why? Brexit isn’t the key issue for me.

    It makes everything a bit harder than it was before, we’re all a bit poorer and seems to be used by its supporters to justify/excuse/deflect from all sorts of poor practices like we saw this week.

    Beyond that 🤷‍♀️

    Johnson understands that the British voter does not do gratitude; so having got Brexit 'done' (for low values of done) is not going to be enough at the next GE. The electoral strategy is going to be to depict the oppostion as wanting to reverse Brexit and that it is only secure with the tories.

    You can see tories on here already starting to push this line.
    Fair comment and GE24 will be a moment when each party has to outline its strategy on Europe

    For me I could vote to rejoin the single market but will not vote for any party who wants to rejoin or rejoin in a disingenuous way
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,454

    Sandpit said:

    Major was rightly furious on a number of issues. Many conservative voters are also furious.

    After a week of ‘sleazy’ stories, who better to remind us all of just how bad it can get.
    Err Edwina Curry perhaps
    Don’t shame the lad for a bit of loving big G
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830
    Farooq said:

    Sandpit said:

    Major was rightly furious on a number of issues. Many conservative voters are also furious.

    After a week of ‘sleazy’ stories, who better to remind us all of just how bad it can get.
    Genuine question, what sleaze was Major directly involved in? I know he dipped his chapati in Curry a few times, but wasn't that it?
    That came out (fnaar) much later. It was lack of control of sleazy people was the issue
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,454

    Dura_Ace said:

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Glad to see Major speaking up, whilst Boris’ supporters here circle the wagons.

    Yes but remember we support Brexit and that isn't going to change
    Brexit trumps everything for you, yes we know.
    It does for very many and you should ask why no UK party, ex the SNP and Plaid, support rejoining, unless of course the Lib Dems finally discover honesty and say they will campaign to rejoin, not some silly fudge
    Why? Brexit isn’t the key issue for me.

    It makes everything a bit harder than it was before, we’re all a bit poorer and seems to be used by its supporters to justify/excuse/deflect from all sorts of poor practices like we saw this week.

    Beyond that 🤷‍♀️

    Johnson understands that the British voter does not do gratitude; so having got Brexit 'done' (for low values of done) is not going to be enough at the next GE. The electoral strategy is going to be to depict the oppostion as wanting to reverse Brexit and that it is only secure with the tories.

    You can see tories on here already starting to push this line.
    Fair comment and GE24 will be a moment when each party has to outline its strategy on Europe

    For me I could vote to rejoin the single market but will not vote for any party who wants to rejoin or rejoin in a disingenuous way
    “Rejoin the single market” will be framed as “rejoining in a disingenuous way” by the frothers
  • Jonathan said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Glad to see Major speaking up, whilst Boris’ supporters here circle the wagons.

    Yes but remember we support Brexit and that isn't going to change
    Brexit trumps everything for you, yes we know.
    It does for very many and you should ask why no UK party, ex the SNP and Plaid, support rejoining, unless of course the Lib Dems finally discover honesty and say they will campaign to rejoin, not some silly fudge
    Why? Brexit isn’t the key issue for me.

    It makes everything a bit harder than it was before, we’re all a bit poorer and seems to be used by its supporters to justify/excuse/deflect from all sorts of poor practices like we saw this week.

    Beyond that 🤷‍♀️

    Johnson understands that the British voter does not do gratitude; so having got Brexit 'done' (for low values of done) is not going to be enough at the next GE. The electoral strategy is going to be to depict the oppostion as wanting to reverse Brexit and that it is only secure with the tories.

    You can see tories on here already starting to push this line.
    Yeah, Boris and his minions want the Brexit wars to continue forever.
    I would suggest many on the remain side are doing a good job on that, ensuring that by not accepting we have left it continues ad nfinitum
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,454

    Jonathan said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Glad to see Major speaking up, whilst Boris’ supporters here circle the wagons.

    Yes but remember we support Brexit and that isn't going to change
    Brexit trumps everything for you, yes we know.
    It does for very many and you should ask why no UK party, ex the SNP and Plaid, support rejoining, unless of course the Lib Dems finally discover honesty and say they will campaign to rejoin, not some silly fudge
    Why? Brexit isn’t the key issue for me.

    It makes everything a bit harder than it was before, we’re all a bit poorer and seems to be used by its supporters to justify/excuse/deflect from all sorts of poor practices like we saw this week.

    Beyond that 🤷‍♀️

    Johnson understands that the British voter does not do gratitude; so having got Brexit 'done' (for low values of done) is not going to be enough at the next GE. The electoral strategy is going to be to depict the oppostion as wanting to reverse Brexit and that it is only secure with the tories.

    You can see tories on here already starting to push this line.
    Yeah, Boris and his minions want the Brexit wars to continue forever.
    I would suggest many on the remain side are doing a good job on that, ensuring that by not accepting we have left it continues ad nfinitum
    You regard any criticism of Brexit as “not accepting we’ve left” to be fair
  • IshmaelZ said:

    Farooq said:

    Sandpit said:

    Major was rightly furious on a number of issues. Many conservative voters are also furious.

    After a week of ‘sleazy’ stories, who better to remind us all of just how bad it can get.
    Genuine question, what sleaze was Major directly involved in? I know he dipped his chapati in Curry a few times, but wasn't that it?
    That came out (fnaar) much later. It was lack of control of sleazy people was the issue
    In the alternative timeline where his affair was all over the Sunday papers in ‘95, would he have had to resign?
  • Mr. Gate, it wasn't a problem for me, but migration played large in the campaign so a single market rejoining argument might be tricky. It's interesting to consider whether that'd be seen as easier or harder to win than a full-blown rejoin.
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 21,298

    Jonathan said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Glad to see Major speaking up, whilst Boris’ supporters here circle the wagons.

    Yes but remember we support Brexit and that isn't going to change
    Brexit trumps everything for you, yes we know.
    It does for very many and you should ask why no UK party, ex the SNP and Plaid, support rejoining, unless of course the Lib Dems finally discover honesty and say they will campaign to rejoin, not some silly fudge
    Why? Brexit isn’t the key issue for me.

    It makes everything a bit harder than it was before, we’re all a bit poorer and seems to be used by its supporters to justify/excuse/deflect from all sorts of poor practices like we saw this week.

    Beyond that 🤷‍♀️

    Johnson understands that the British voter does not do gratitude; so having got Brexit 'done' (for low values of done) is not going to be enough at the next GE. The electoral strategy is going to be to depict the oppostion as wanting to reverse Brexit and that it is only secure with the tories.

    You can see tories on here already starting to push this line.
    Yeah, Boris and his minions want the Brexit wars to continue forever.
    I would suggest many on the remain side are doing a good job on that, ensuring that by not accepting we have left it continues ad nfinitum
    Can you name any Remainers who don’t accept we have left?

    Or are they just folk devils of your imagination?
  • Dura_Ace said:

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Glad to see Major speaking up, whilst Boris’ supporters here circle the wagons.

    Yes but remember we support Brexit and that isn't going to change
    Brexit trumps everything for you, yes we know.
    It does for very many and you should ask why no UK party, ex the SNP and Plaid, support rejoining, unless of course the Lib Dems finally discover honesty and say they will campaign to rejoin, not some silly fudge
    Why? Brexit isn’t the key issue for me.

    It makes everything a bit harder than it was before, we’re all a bit poorer and seems to be used by its supporters to justify/excuse/deflect from all sorts of poor practices like we saw this week.

    Beyond that 🤷‍♀️

    Johnson understands that the British voter does not do gratitude; so having got Brexit 'done' (for low values of done) is not going to be enough at the next GE. The electoral strategy is going to be to depict the oppostion as wanting to reverse Brexit and that it is only secure with the tories.

    You can see tories on here already starting to push this line.
    Fair comment and GE24 will be a moment when each party has to outline its strategy on Europe

    For me I could vote to rejoin the single market but will not vote for any party who wants to rejoin or rejoin in a disingenuous way
    “Rejoin the single market” will be framed as “rejoining in a disingenuous way” by the frothers
    To clarify the lib dems position is to rejoin by stealth and not honestly stating it from day one ( disingenuous)

  • Northern_AlNorthern_Al Posts: 8,375

    franklyn said:

    It comes to something when John Major has become, de facto, the leader of the opposition. BBC Radio 4, 8.10 am.

    Not so fast!

    The Opposition including (late in the day, Starmer) have had a good and effective week. Hat tip in particular to Rayner and Lady Fugee.
    The last week has seen multiple Labour voices attacking the government, rather than each other. It's been coherent, and coherence works.

    It's not rocket science, but it's shocking how rare it has been in recent years.
    I sort of agree with that, but I'd also argue (and have done for the last 18 months) that it's been hard for Labour to get a hearing since Starmer was elected because of Covid dominating absolutely everything. Nobody was much interested in anything else. Now that Covid is taking more of a backseat and Parliament is back to its former glory(!), there's more scope for opposition voices to be heard.

    And, of course, it helps that we have a government mired in sleaze.
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,523

    Dura_Ace said:

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Glad to see Major speaking up, whilst Boris’ supporters here circle the wagons.

    Yes but remember we support Brexit and that isn't going to change
    Brexit trumps everything for you, yes we know.
    It does for very many and you should ask why no UK party, ex the SNP and Plaid, support rejoining, unless of course the Lib Dems finally discover honesty and say they will campaign to rejoin, not some silly fudge
    Why? Brexit isn’t the key issue for me.

    It makes everything a bit harder than it was before, we’re all a bit poorer and seems to be used by its supporters to justify/excuse/deflect from all sorts of poor practices like we saw this week.

    Beyond that 🤷‍♀️

    Johnson understands that the British voter does not do gratitude; so having got Brexit 'done' (for low values of done) is not going to be enough at the next GE. The electoral strategy is going to be to depict the oppostion as wanting to reverse Brexit and that it is only secure with the tories.

    You can see tories on here already starting to push this line.
    Fair comment and GE24 will be a moment when each party has to outline its strategy on Europe

    For me I could vote to rejoin the single market but will not vote for any party who wants to rejoin or rejoin in a disingenuous way
    Labour merely needs to be less Europhobic than the Johnson and Frost show to get most Remainers on side - something like "We will not try to rejoin, but we will seek a sensible trading agreement with our neighbours with common standards to eliminate the border issue" seems a defensible, boringly reasonable position that won't trigger Red Wall fury.
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 21,298

    Jonathan said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Glad to see Major speaking up, whilst Boris’ supporters here circle the wagons.

    Yes but remember we support Brexit and that isn't going to change
    Brexit trumps everything for you, yes we know.
    It does for very many and you should ask why no UK party, ex the SNP and Plaid, support rejoining, unless of course the Lib Dems finally discover honesty and say they will campaign to rejoin, not some silly fudge
    Why? Brexit isn’t the key issue for me.

    It makes everything a bit harder than it was before, we’re all a bit poorer and seems to be used by its supporters to justify/excuse/deflect from all sorts of poor practices like we saw this week.

    Beyond that 🤷‍♀️

    Johnson understands that the British voter does not do gratitude; so having got Brexit 'done' (for low values of done) is not going to be enough at the next GE. The electoral strategy is going to be to depict the oppostion as wanting to reverse Brexit and that it is only secure with the tories.

    You can see tories on here already starting to push this line.
    Yeah, Boris and his minions want the Brexit wars to continue forever.
    I would suggest many on the remain side are doing a good job on that, ensuring that by not accepting we have left it continues ad nfinitum
    You regard any criticism of Brexit as “not accepting we’ve left” to be fair
    Big G didn’t even vote for Brexit.
    It is not entirely clear how far down the road to Damascus he is.
  • Dura_Ace said:

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Glad to see Major speaking up, whilst Boris’ supporters here circle the wagons.

    Yes but remember we support Brexit and that isn't going to change
    Brexit trumps everything for you, yes we know.
    It does for very many and you should ask why no UK party, ex the SNP and Plaid, support rejoining, unless of course the Lib Dems finally discover honesty and say they will campaign to rejoin, not some silly fudge
    Why? Brexit isn’t the key issue for me.

    It makes everything a bit harder than it was before, we’re all a bit poorer and seems to be used by its supporters to justify/excuse/deflect from all sorts of poor practices like we saw this week.

    Beyond that 🤷‍♀️

    Johnson understands that the British voter does not do gratitude; so having got Brexit 'done' (for low values of done) is not going to be enough at the next GE. The electoral strategy is going to be to depict the oppostion as wanting to reverse Brexit and that it is only secure with the tories.

    You can see tories on here already starting to push this line.
    Fair comment and GE24 will be a moment when each party has to outline its strategy on Europe

    For me I could vote to rejoin the single market but will not vote for any party who wants to rejoin or rejoin in a disingenuous way
    How do you distinguish between rejoin the SM and a disingenuous first step to rejoining the EU?
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 13,677



    I would suggest many on the remain side are doing a good job on that, ensuring that by not accepting we have left it continues ad nfinitum

    Point it out that it is a bad idea being poorly executed by charlatans, narcissists and fools is not the same thing as not 'accepting' it.
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 21,298

    IshmaelZ said:

    Farooq said:

    Sandpit said:

    Major was rightly furious on a number of issues. Many conservative voters are also furious.

    After a week of ‘sleazy’ stories, who better to remind us all of just how bad it can get.
    Genuine question, what sleaze was Major directly involved in? I know he dipped his chapati in Curry a few times, but wasn't that it?
    That came out (fnaar) much later. It was lack of control of sleazy people was the issue
    In the alternative timeline where his affair was all over the Sunday papers in ‘95, would he have had to resign?
    Certainly, yes.
  • squareroot2squareroot2 Posts: 6,723
    edited November 2021

    Good morning

    The poll in today's mail on which leader is sleazy Boris beats Starmer 53%/20%

    However, paradoxically on who is doing the better job overall he wins 41% too 27%

    The mail put this down to it is already being accepted about Boris and sleaze

    What a strange world we live in, but maybe labour should wonder why Starmer is not cutting through

    That sort of polling makes me laugh.

    It will just make the Boris haters even more mad.. consumed by hate rather than doing something about it.

    The Tories are the only option right now, dislikeable as they are. Labour are a shambles and with "Scumspeak" Rayner about, its not going to change anytime soon. What are Labour doing about making themselves electable? SFA IMHO.
This discussion has been closed.