As I have said many times, winning an election is very important, but it is what you do when you have won it that counts. I think Mrs T said it somewhat more eloquently but I cant recall the quote.
Boris Johnson is continually forgiven by folk such as yourself because he "won". The reality is the real Tory party lost. They replaced centuries of belief in good governance and statesmanship with ego driven populism and clownish tomfoolery. Britain is a laughing stock. When people talk about patriotism, think of an image of Boris Johnson and ask yourself whether any world leader takes him seriously.
I have a feeling that you would have been saying something similar in 1981 about Thatcher and cringing with embarrassment about her handbagging the EEC over the rebate.
Wrong, I supported her approach to the EEC. My position on membership of the EEC/ EU has always been consistent: it is/was flawed, but not so much so that it made sense for us to leave.
Labour's @AngelaRayner confirms party won't take part in new standards system: "Labour will not be taking any part in this sham process or any corrupt committee."
A lot of Tories did not want to be associated with this vote
And yet because of their cowardice they all are. Absolutely disgraceful from the government and the MPs. The opposition completely caught napping as well given the level of Tory abstentions.
To be fair given his wife took suicide over this issue I think he has already suffered enough. I expect a few opposition MPs felt the same as clearly did most Tory MPs.
Suspending him for a month would really not have done much and just set back his constituency work anyway, even if I would probably not have voted for the Leadsom amendment myself.
If his electors are still annoyed with him then let them vote him out at the next general election
What an utterly specious argument, even by your own dismal standards. By you logic, MPs needn't have a disciplinary process at all - leave it all to the election. Those in safe seats (like Patterson) would be practically immune under that process - very little chance his appalling, egregious breach of paid lobbying rules would trump the likely desire of his constituents for a Tory Government in 2023/24.
The "already suffered enough" line is similarly nonsensical. Patterson has shamelessly used the tragic death of his wife to deflect from his corrupt actions before that happened. He claims the pressure of the disciplinary process contributed to her death. Nobody here can know if that is true or not. But we do know WHY there was a disciplinary process... it's because Mr Patterson repeatedly, blatantly abused his position and privileges to feather his nest. Try a similar line at sentencing in the Crown Court and see how far it gets you.
That is largely my view actually.
MPs employers are their constituents and their local party, not Parliament. Parliament is there to serve MPs and Lords not the other way round.
If their local party or their constituents dislike what they are doing they can deselect them or vote them out at election time.
As I said he is not facing any criminal charges so Crown Court sentencing is not relevant
It's entirely relevant. Fairness to the person who has been found guilty of misconduct is MORE important the more serious the repercussions, such as criminal penalties in a Crown Court trial, not LESS important.
So if a judge would give short shrift to an argument that you should be treated leniently because of the impact on others in your life of the trial (which you as the guilty party had done more than anyone to cause) then it's DOUBLY the case in the current situation.
That you feel there shouldn't be a disciplinary process at all speaks volumes of you personally, and there is no need to respond further.
Miss Moorehead @MissMooreheadCV · Nov 1 P3B have been preparing for Thursday, when P6 are encouraging everybody to wear a skirt to raise awareness of #LaRopaNoTieneGenero, or as our lovely posters say ‘clothing has no gender’ @MissWhiteCV@MissMcGroryCV.
I think this type of thing will seem very normal by this time next year.
Yes, Peak Woke will never happen, it will just continue and worsen
You have to wonder how mad it might get
2020 went beyond what happened in 1968. The revolution will keep going until it reaches some sort of limit: either it collapses due to the absurdity of its own contradictions, or it gets attacked from outside. All you can really do is try and stay out of its way.
The absent @SeanT, erstwhile citizen of this same manor, posits in the Spectator that Woke is actually a proper new religion, and will thus endure
Let us hope that, as always, he is entirely wrong and befuddled by The Drink
Has anyone commented today on the additional implications of the recent move to suppress any publicity for MPs facing charges? I forget the details - but it could also be very convenient for some.
Boris Johnson is remaking British politics in his own image - corrupt, dishonest and utterly self-serving. A shameful day for our democracy.
Yep, we are getting exactly what was going to happen once the Tories decided to make a grifting liar their leader.
it is why I voted for Jeremy Hunt
Would that be the same Jeremy Hunt that signed the amendment? 🤔
Everything is relative. Regrettable if he did. Not sure how often he has voted against a three line whip ( I am sure someone with more time than me will tell me). Either way, it is people who supported Boris Johnson, like yourself, that have taken the Tory Party into this sewer.
I respect Jeremy Hunt but had he been Tory leader I doubt he would have got a majority against Corbyn, more a rehash of May's 2017 result. Farage would still have stood BXP candidates in Tory seats so the Tories would have lost more seats to the LDs and I doubt he would have won as many seats from Labour in the Redwall as Boris did, being a Remainer unlike Leaver Boris
As I have said many times, winning an election is very important, but it is what you do when you have won it that counts. I think Mrs T said it somewhat more eloquently but I cant recall the quote.
Boris Johnson is continually forgiven by folk such as yourself because he "won". The reality is the real Tory party lost. They replaced centuries of belief in good governance and statesmanship with ego driven populism and clownish tomfoolery. Britain is a laughing stock. When people talk about patriotism, think of an image of Boris Johnson and ask yourself whether any world leader takes him seriously.
The Conservative members have been leaving in droves for some time now, not least because the paid part of the party has overuled the volunteers at every turn. Now, the Tory organisation is dominated by a clique of professional politicians and the volunteer members, who used to be the party, eiher now simply ignored or silenced or quite often they are actively derided. The members have no power or control.
Now Johnson is moving onto the Conservative voters: he gaslights them at every turn, with insane, economically illiterate policies, Russian donors and a side order of bullshit. He assumes that they will continue to support him.
For the time being he has been right.
He assumes that the electoral system will keep him in power for as long as he wants the job. So far, he is right. However, if the wind were to change then we would not necessarily be looking at the pendulum swinging and Labour returning in a couple of elections time. It is quite possible that the Conservative voter bloc swings strongly away, as they did in Chesham and Amersham. Right now, no one thinks that Labour or, still less the Liberal Democrats, can put up a fight that will knock the Tories out next time. However, Johnson´s confidence in the voters may be rather misplaced. A sustained swing like the "Cleggasm" only this time the voters follow it up, is not impossible, and if a big enough bloc of hitherto Tory voters defects, then the Tories could face implosion.
The historical precedent (the Liberal Party collapse in the 1920s) still suggests a time line of several elections, but if Johnson continues to play with fire, then the timeline becomes a lot more uncertain.
The Conservative Party, the most successful political party in history, that we knew until 2014 is dead. Tbe zombie Tories may not survive a decade.
Labour's @AngelaRayner confirms party won't take part in new standards system: "Labour will not be taking any part in this sham process or any corrupt committee."
Lots of journos saying this is a problem, but this is exactly the result they wanted. Judge and jury on themselves.
Then why didn't Lab et al vote against it?
Have missed the details if this has been addressed.
In the main they did- certainly they didn't back the Leadsom plan.
What we don't know is the degree to which the abstentions were real (don't know/CBA) as opposed to pairing pseudo-abstentions. Or MPs who didn't expect a big close vote today.
But I'd a government wants to play hardball (and a three line whip on this is hardball) and starts with an 80 majority, there's not a lot an opposition can do.
Boris Johnson is remaking British politics in his own image - corrupt, dishonest and utterly self-serving. A shameful day for our democracy.
Yep, we are getting exactly what was going to happen once the Tories decided to make a grifting liar their leader.
it is why I voted for Jeremy Hunt
Would that be the same Jeremy Hunt that signed the amendment? 🤔
Everything is relative. Regrettable if he did. Not sure how often he has voted against a three line whip ( I am sure someone with more time than me will tell me). Either way, it is people who supported Boris Johnson, like yourself, that have taken the Tory Party into this sewer.
I respect Jeremy Hunt but had he been Tory leader I doubt he would have got a majority against Corbyn, more a rehash of May's 2017 result. Farage would still have stood BXP candidates in Tory seats so the Tories would have lost more seats to the LDs and I doubt he would have won as many seats from Labour in the Redwall as Boris did, being a Remainer unlike Leaver Boris
As I have said many times, winning an election is very important, but it is what you do when you have won it that counts. I think Mrs T said it somewhat more eloquently but I cant recall the quote.
Boris Johnson is continually forgiven by folk such as yourself because he "won". The reality is the real Tory party lost. They replaced centuries of belief in good governance and statesmanship with ego driven populism and clownish tomfoolery. Britain is a laughing stock. When people talk about patriotism, think of an image of Boris Johnson and ask yourself whether any world leader takes him seriously.
Yes we know full well Biden takes him seriously. Hence AUKUS etc
Just because you don't, doesn't mean people like Biden are as deluded with clown metaphors as you are.
I am deluded? It is called diplomacy you silly boy. You think Biden admires him and this is the reason for AUKUS? Oh dear lol!
Who says anything about admires? Not me.
Biden engages in realpolitik which means taking other leaders seriously.
Boris does the exact same thing.
Admiration isn't something that world leaders should be engaging in.
He is a joke, in the same way Trump is perceived to be a joke. Funny how you run to his defence. Such a similarity between you and the Trumpians the other side of the pond.
Miss Moorehead @MissMooreheadCV · Nov 1 P3B have been preparing for Thursday, when P6 are encouraging everybody to wear a skirt to raise awareness of #LaRopaNoTieneGenero, or as our lovely posters say ‘clothing has no gender’ @MissWhiteCV@MissMcGroryCV.
I think this type of thing will seem very normal by this time next year.
Yes, Peak Woke will never happen, it will just continue and worsen
You have to wonder how mad it might get
2020 went beyond what happened in 1968. The revolution will keep going until it reaches some sort of limit: either it collapses due to the absurdity of its own contradictions, or it gets attacked from outside. All you can really do is try and stay out of its way.
The absent @SeanT, erstwhile citizen of this same manor, posits in the Spectator that Woke is actually a proper new religion, and will thus endure
Let us hope that, as always, he is entirely wrong and befuddled by The Drink
For woke to be a new religion (rather than a variant of christianity, as suggested by some) it needs to travel. And from what I can see, it isn't doing that - quite the reverse.
Labour's @AngelaRayner confirms party won't take part in new standards system: "Labour will not be taking any part in this sham process or any corrupt committee."
Miss Moorehead @MissMooreheadCV · Nov 1 P3B have been preparing for Thursday, when P6 are encouraging everybody to wear a skirt to raise awareness of #LaRopaNoTieneGenero, or as our lovely posters say ‘clothing has no gender’ @MissWhiteCV@MissMcGroryCV.
I think this type of thing will seem very normal by this time next year.
Yes, Peak Woke will never happen, it will just continue and worsen
You have to wonder how mad it might get
2020 went beyond what happened in 1968. The revolution will keep going until it reaches some sort of limit: either it collapses due to the absurdity of its own contradictions, or it gets attacked from outside. All you can really do is try and stay out of its way.
The absent @SeanT, erstwhile citizen of this same manor, posits in the Spectator that Woke is actually a proper new religion, and will thus endure
Let us hope that, as always, he is entirely wrong and befuddled by The Drink
As I have said many times, winning an election is very important, but it is what you do when you have won it that counts. I think Mrs T said it somewhat more eloquently but I cant recall the quote.
Boris Johnson is continually forgiven by folk such as yourself because he "won". The reality is the real Tory party lost. They replaced centuries of belief in good governance and statesmanship with ego driven populism and clownish tomfoolery. Britain is a laughing stock. When people talk about patriotism, think of an image of Boris Johnson and ask yourself whether any world leader takes him seriously.
I have a feeling that you would have been saying something similar in 1981 about Thatcher and cringing with embarrassment about her handbagging the EEC over the rebate.
Wrong, I supported her approach to the EEC. My position on membership of the EEC/ EU has always been consistent: it is/was flawed, but not so much so that it made sense for us to leave.
How consistent has your view been? Oh..hang on...
So you don't adjust your thinking when new data challenges it. When the facts change, I change my mind.
Jeremy Corbyn also hasn't changed any of his thoughts in the past four decades either. You two belong together.
Labour's @AngelaRayner confirms party won't take part in new standards system: "Labour will not be taking any part in this sham process or any corrupt committee."
Lots of journos saying this is a problem, but this is exactly the result they wanted. Judge and jury on themselves.
Then why didn't Lab et al vote against it?
Have missed the details if this has been addressed.
In the main they did- certainly they didn't back the Leadsom plan.
What we don't know is the degree to which the abstentions were real (don't know/CBA) as opposed to pairing pseudo-abstentions. Or MPs who didn't expect a big close vote today.
But I'd a government wants to play hardball (and a three line whip on this is hardball) and starts with an 80 majority, there's not a lot an opposition can do.
Moral: don't lose elections by a big margin.
Yes true but turn up to vote ffs. 80 is a big enough majority, meanwhile Tory grandees were on the airwaves saying they'd vote against.
If they weren't paired (see my comments earlier about @NickPalmer's recent comment on it) then they really have themselves (and the other non-Cons) to blame.
A lot of Tories did not want to be associated with this vote
And yet because of their cowardice they all are. Absolutely disgraceful from the government and the MPs. The opposition completely caught napping as well given the level of Tory abstentions.
To be fair given his wife took suicide over this issue I think he has already suffered enough. I expect a few opposition MPs felt the same as clearly did most Tory MPs.
Suspending him for a month would really not have done much and just set back his constituency work anyway, even if I would probably not have voted for the Leadsom amendment myself.
If his electors are still annoyed with him then let them vote him out at the next general election
What an utterly specious argument, even by your own dismal standards. By you logic, MPs needn't have a disciplinary process at all - leave it all to the election. Those in safe seats (like Patterson) would be practically immune under that process - very little chance his appalling, egregious breach of paid lobbying rules would trump the likely desire of his constituents for a Tory Government in 2023/24.
The "already suffered enough" line is similarly nonsensical. Patterson has shamelessly used the tragic death of his wife to deflect from his corrupt actions before that happened. He claims the pressure of the disciplinary process contributed to her death. Nobody here can know if that is true or not. But we do know WHY there was a disciplinary process... it's because Mr Patterson repeatedly, blatantly abused his position and privileges to feather his nest. Try a similar line at sentencing in the Crown Court and see how far it gets you.
That is largely my view actually.
MPs employers are their constituents and their local party, not Parliament. Parliament is there to serve MPs and Lords not the other way round.
If their local party or their constituents dislike what they are doing they can deselect them or vote them out at election time.
As I said he is not facing any criminal charges so Crown Court sentencing is not relevant
It's entirely relevant. Fairness to the person who has been found guilty of misconduct is MORE important the more serious the repercussions, such as criminal penalties in a Crown Court trial, not LESS important.
So if a judge would give short shrift to an argument that you should be treated leniently because of the impact on others in your life of the trial (which you as the guilty party had done more than anyone to cause) then it's DOUBLY the case in the current situation.
That you feel there shouldn't be a disciplinary process at all speaks volumes of you personally, and there is no need to respond further.
Given there was no criminal activity in this case clearly the penalties of a Crown Court trial are not relevant. Had Patterson committed a criminal offence and been found guilty he would have faced criminal sanction, even jail, regardless of his wife's suicide. However he faced no criminal sanction so his fellow MPs could decide whether they wanted to impose any sanctions on him or not over his lobbying work given the context.
I stand by my view MPs should be judged solely at election time or by their local parties as they always used to be. They are elected for 5 year terms and unless they get a substantial prison sentence should be allowed to complete that term and judged on how they performed at it at the next election
Boris Johnson is remaking British politics in his own image - corrupt, dishonest and utterly self-serving. A shameful day for our democracy.
Yep, we are getting exactly what was going to happen once the Tories decided to make a grifting liar their leader.
it is why I voted for Jeremy Hunt
Would that be the same Jeremy Hunt that signed the amendment? 🤔
Everything is relative. Regrettable if he did. Not sure how often he has voted against a three line whip ( I am sure someone with more time than me will tell me). Either way, it is people who supported Boris Johnson, like yourself, that have taken the Tory Party into this sewer.
I respect Jeremy Hunt but had he been Tory leader I doubt he would have got a majority against Corbyn, more a rehash of May's 2017 result. Farage would still have stood BXP candidates in Tory seats so the Tories would have lost more seats to the LDs and I doubt he would have won as many seats from Labour in the Redwall as Boris did, being a Remainer unlike Leaver Boris
As I have said many times, winning an election is very important, but it is what you do when you have won it that counts. I think Mrs T said it somewhat more eloquently but I cant recall the quote.
Boris Johnson is continually forgiven by folk such as yourself because he "won". The reality is the real Tory party lost. They replaced centuries of belief in good governance and statesmanship with ego driven populism and clownish tomfoolery. Britain is a laughing stock. When people talk about patriotism, think of an image of Boris Johnson and ask yourself whether any world leader takes him seriously.
Yes we know full well Biden takes him seriously. Hence AUKUS etc
Just because you don't, doesn't mean people like Biden are as deluded with clown metaphors as you are.
I am deluded? It is called diplomacy you silly boy. You think Biden admires him and this is the reason for AUKUS? Oh dear lol!
Who says anything about admires? Not me.
Biden engages in realpolitik which means taking other leaders seriously.
Boris does the exact same thing.
Admiration isn't something that world leaders should be engaging in.
He is a joke, in the same way Trump is perceived to be a joke. Funny how you run to his defence. Such a similarity between you and the Trumpians the other side of the pond.
The only PM in recent years who was a joke was his predecessor, whom other leaders openly mocked.
When the bullying and harassment complaints process was established everyone I know who worked in Parliament was sceptical that any really serious sanction would be imposed on an MP by the House. I know that is a different process from a standards breach but today just enforces that fear. When push comes to shove MPs will always find a way to protect a colleague if he's well liked enough. The ramifications of this vote go well beyond any immediate impact on the Standards process.
That will hardly come as any surprise to the public. Almost by definition, political tribalists are less cynical about politicians than most people.
Miss Moorehead @MissMooreheadCV · Nov 1 P3B have been preparing for Thursday, when P6 are encouraging everybody to wear a skirt to raise awareness of #LaRopaNoTieneGenero, or as our lovely posters say ‘clothing has no gender’ @MissWhiteCV@MissMcGroryCV.
I think this type of thing will seem very normal by this time next year.
Yes, Peak Woke will never happen, it will just continue and worsen
You have to wonder how mad it might get
2020 went beyond what happened in 1968. The revolution will keep going until it reaches some sort of limit: either it collapses due to the absurdity of its own contradictions, or it gets attacked from outside. All you can really do is try and stay out of its way.
The absent @SeanT, erstwhile citizen of this same manor, posits in the Spectator that Woke is actually a proper new religion, and will thus endure
Let us hope that, as always, he is entirely wrong and befuddled by The Drink
For woke to be a new religion (rather than a variant of christianity, as suggested by some) it needs to travel. And from what I can see, it isn't doing that - quite the reverse.
It is certainly spreading in the English speaking world, and now - bizarrely - into India
Boris Johnson is remaking British politics in his own image - corrupt, dishonest and utterly self-serving. A shameful day for our democracy.
Yep, we are getting exactly what was going to happen once the Tories decided to make a grifting liar their leader.
it is why I voted for Jeremy Hunt
Would that be the same Jeremy Hunt that signed the amendment? 🤔
Everything is relative. Regrettable if he did. Not sure how often he has voted against a three line whip ( I am sure someone with more time than me will tell me). Either way, it is people who supported Boris Johnson, like yourself, that have taken the Tory Party into this sewer.
I respect Jeremy Hunt but had he been Tory leader I doubt he would have got a majority against Corbyn, more a rehash of May's 2017 result. Farage would still have stood BXP candidates in Tory seats so the Tories would have lost more seats to the LDs and I doubt he would have won as many seats from Labour in the Redwall as Boris did, being a Remainer unlike Leaver Boris
As I have said many times, winning an election is very important, but it is what you do when you have won it that counts. I think Mrs T said it somewhat more eloquently but I cant recall the quote.
Boris Johnson is continually forgiven by folk such as yourself because he "won". The reality is the real Tory party lost. They replaced centuries of belief in good governance and statesmanship with ego driven populism and clownish tomfoolery. Britain is a laughing stock. When people talk about patriotism, think of an image of Boris Johnson and ask yourself whether any world leader takes him seriously.
Yes we know full well Biden takes him seriously. Hence AUKUS etc
Just because you don't, doesn't mean people like Biden are as deluded with clown metaphors as you are.
I am deluded? It is called diplomacy you silly boy. You think Biden admires him and this is the reason for AUKUS? Oh dear lol!
Who says anything about admires? Not me.
Biden engages in realpolitik which means taking other leaders seriously.
Boris does the exact same thing.
Admiration isn't something that world leaders should be engaging in.
He is a joke, in the same way Trump is perceived to be a joke. Funny how you run to his defence. Such a similarity between you and the Trumpians the other side of the pond.
The only PM in recent years who was a joke was his predecessor, whom other leaders openly mocked.
Cake, no cherries, Prime Minister.
She wasn't great, but she was not dishonest and she was not a joke. Perhaps you think that because she is female? Is belief in misogyny a requirement for fanbois of The Clown?
Miss Moorehead @MissMooreheadCV · Nov 1 P3B have been preparing for Thursday, when P6 are encouraging everybody to wear a skirt to raise awareness of #LaRopaNoTieneGenero, or as our lovely posters say ‘clothing has no gender’ @MissWhiteCV@MissMcGroryCV.
I think this type of thing will seem very normal by this time next year.
Yes, Peak Woke will never happen, it will just continue and worsen
You have to wonder how mad it might get
2020 went beyond what happened in 1968. The revolution will keep going until it reaches some sort of limit: either it collapses due to the absurdity of its own contradictions, or it gets attacked from outside. All you can really do is try and stay out of its way.
The absent @SeanT, erstwhile citizen of this same manor, posits in the Spectator that Woke is actually a proper new religion, and will thus endure
Let us hope that, as always, he is entirely wrong and befuddled by The Drink
I heard he'd been dropped by the Speccy in favour of new columnist Vladimir Putin. Putin says it better apparently. Bit more bite, a loftier intellect and a rather wider historical lens. Plus he's not charging.
Boris Johnson is remaking British politics in his own image - corrupt, dishonest and utterly self-serving. A shameful day for our democracy.
Yep, we are getting exactly what was going to happen once the Tories decided to make a grifting liar their leader.
it is why I voted for Jeremy Hunt
Would that be the same Jeremy Hunt that signed the amendment? 🤔
Everything is relative. Regrettable if he did. Not sure how often he has voted against a three line whip ( I am sure someone with more time than me will tell me). Either way, it is people who supported Boris Johnson, like yourself, that have taken the Tory Party into this sewer.
I respect Jeremy Hunt but had he been Tory leader I doubt he would have got a majority against Corbyn, more a rehash of May's 2017 result. Farage would still have stood BXP candidates in Tory seats so the Tories would have lost more seats to the LDs and I doubt he would have won as many seats from Labour in the Redwall as Boris did, being a Remainer unlike Leaver Boris
As I have said many times, winning an election is very important, but it is what you do when you have won it that counts. I think Mrs T said it somewhat more eloquently but I cant recall the quote.
Boris Johnson is continually forgiven by folk such as yourself because he "won". The reality is the real Tory party lost. They replaced centuries of belief in good governance and statesmanship with ego driven populism and clownish tomfoolery. Britain is a laughing stock. When people talk about patriotism, think of an image of Boris Johnson and ask yourself whether any world leader takes him seriously.
The Conservative members have been leaving in droves for some time now, not least because the paid part of the party has overuled the volunteers at every turn. Now, the Tory organisation is dominated by a clique of professional politicians and the volunteer members, who used to be the party, eiher now simply ignored or silenced or quite often they are actively derided. The members have no power or control.
Now Johnson is moving onto the Conservative voters, he gaslights them at every turn, with insane, economically illiterate policies, Russian donors and a side order of bullshit. He assumes that they will continue to support him.
For the time being he has been right.
He assumes that the electoral system will keep him in power for as long as he wants the job. So far he is right. However, if the wind were to change then we would not necessarily be looking at the pendulum swinging and Labour returning in a couple of elections time. It is quite possible that the Conservative voter bloc swings strongly away, as they did in Chesham and Amersham. Right now, no one thinks that Labour or, still less the Liberal Democrats, can put up a fight that will knock the Tories out next time. However, Johnson´s confidence in the voters may be rather misplaced. A swing like the "Cleggasm" is not impossible, and if a big enough bloc of hitherto Tory voters defects, then the Tories could face implosion.
The historical precedent (the Liberal Party collapse in the 1920s) still suggests a time line of several elections, but if Johnson continues to play with fire, then the timeline becomes a lot more uncertain.
The Conservative Party, the most successful political party in hisotry, that we knew until 2014 is dead. Tbe zombie Tories may not survive a decade.
The tory collapse happened in 2019, and Boris Johnson then reinvented the party in the matter of a few months.
I notice that the "Telegraph" has been very sychophantic towards Patterson in its coverage, apart from a critical opinion piece in today's issue from Chris Bryant, whereas the "Mail" has been scathing towards Patterson and Johnson.
Miss Moorehead @MissMooreheadCV · Nov 1 P3B have been preparing for Thursday, when P6 are encouraging everybody to wear a skirt to raise awareness of #LaRopaNoTieneGenero, or as our lovely posters say ‘clothing has no gender’ @MissWhiteCV@MissMcGroryCV.
I think this type of thing will seem very normal by this time next year.
Yes, Peak Woke will never happen, it will just continue and worsen
You have to wonder how mad it might get
2020 went beyond what happened in 1968. The revolution will keep going until it reaches some sort of limit: either it collapses due to the absurdity of its own contradictions, or it gets attacked from outside. All you can really do is try and stay out of its way.
The absent @SeanT, erstwhile citizen of this same manor, posits in the Spectator that Woke is actually a proper new religion, and will thus endure
Let us hope that, as always, he is entirely wrong and befuddled by The Drink
I heard he'd been dropped by the Speccy in favour of new columnist Vladimir Putin. Putin says it better apparently. Bit more bite, a loftier intellect and a rather wider historical lens. Plus he's not charging.
But how much does Putin pay his mysterious ghostwriter?
So continues the Tory descent into autocracy. How did the opposition not have the numbers either? The government could have been defeated but where was Labour marshalling their own MPs and disaffected Tories into defeating the government?!
Pairing.
Even with pairing, surely the votes existed to defeat the government.
Not really - Tories have a majority of 80.
And won by 18 votes.
273 opposition party MPs. Plus 6 independents, not sure how many of them would be classed with the opposition and how many were elected Conservatives who might expect to vote with the government.
Even with pairing, and less 1 Deputy Speaker and 2 Tellers it should have been possible to martial 250 votes which would have defeated the amendment.
Some opposition MPs either couldn't be bothered to turn up, or have abstained as a matter of conscience as they wanted the vote to be carried.
Oh, so it's all SKS's fault? Now that really does take the Tunnock's teacake.
I didn't see it was his fault, did I?
If some Opposition MPs wanted this to be carried, then that's quite reasonable for them to abstain on this.
It will be interesting to see the list of Opposition MPs who didn't vote.
Looks like Ed Miliband, Margaret Beckett and Sir Keir Starmer are all secret Boris admirers:
Boris Johnson is remaking British politics in his own image - corrupt, dishonest and utterly self-serving. A shameful day for our democracy.
Yep, we are getting exactly what was going to happen once the Tories decided to make a grifting liar their leader.
it is why I voted for Jeremy Hunt
Would that be the same Jeremy Hunt that signed the amendment? 🤔
Everything is relative. Regrettable if he did. Not sure how often he has voted against a three line whip ( I am sure someone with more time than me will tell me). Either way, it is people who supported Boris Johnson, like yourself, that have taken the Tory Party into this sewer.
I respect Jeremy Hunt but had he been Tory leader I doubt he would have got a majority against Corbyn, more a rehash of May's 2017 result. Farage would still have stood BXP candidates in Tory seats so the Tories would have lost more seats to the LDs and I doubt he would have won as many seats from Labour in the Redwall as Boris did, being a Remainer unlike Leaver Boris
As I have said many times, winning an election is very important, but it is what you do when you have won it that counts. I think Mrs T said it somewhat more eloquently but I cant recall the quote.
Boris Johnson is continually forgiven by folk such as yourself because he "won". The reality is the real Tory party lost. They replaced centuries of belief in good governance and statesmanship with ego driven populism and clownish tomfoolery. Britain is a laughing stock. When people talk about patriotism, think of an image of Boris Johnson and ask yourself whether any world leader takes him seriously.
The Conservative members have been leaving in droves for some time now, not least because the paid part of the party has overuled the volunteers at every turn. Now, the Tory organisation is dominated by a clique of professional politicians and the volunteer members, who used to be the party, eiher now simply ignored or silenced or quite often they are actively derided. The members have no power or control.
Now Johnson is moving onto the Conservative voters: he gaslights them at every turn, with insane, economically illiterate policies, Russian donors and a side order of bullshit. He assumes that they will continue to support him.
For the time being he has been right.
He assumes that the electoral system will keep him in power for as long as he wants the job. So far, he is right. However, if the wind were to change then we would not necessarily be looking at the pendulum swinging and Labour returning in a couple of elections time. It is quite possible that the Conservative voter bloc swings strongly away, as they did in Chesham and Amersham. Right now, no one thinks that Labour or, still less the Liberal Democrats, can put up a fight that will knock the Tories out next time. However, Johnson´s confidence in the voters may be rather misplaced. A sustained swing like the "Cleggasm" only this time the voters follow it up, is not impossible, and if a big enough bloc of hitherto Tory voters defects, then the Tories could face implosion.
The historical precedent (the Liberal Party collapse in the 1920s) still suggests a time line of several elections, but if Johnson continues to play with fire, then the timeline becomes a lot more uncertain.
The Conservative Party, the most successful political party in history, that we knew until 2014 is dead. Tbe zombie Tories may not survive a decade.
Then it is upto labour or the lib dems to make a case for my vote and so far there is nothing
Labour's @AngelaRayner confirms party won't take part in new standards system: "Labour will not be taking any part in this sham process or any corrupt committee."
Lots of journos saying this is a problem, but this is exactly the result they wanted. Judge and jury on themselves.
Then why didn't Lab et al vote against it?
Have missed the details if this has been addressed.
In the main they did- certainly they didn't back the Leadsom plan.
What we don't know is the degree to which the abstentions were real (don't know/CBA) as opposed to pairing pseudo-abstentions. Or MPs who didn't expect a big close vote today.
But I'd a government wants to play hardball (and a three line whip on this is hardball) and starts with an 80 majority, there's not a lot an opposition can do.
Moral: don't lose elections by a big margin.
Yes true but turn up to vote ffs. 80 is a big enough majority, meanwhile Tory grandees were on the airwaves saying they'd vote against.
If they weren't paired (see my comments earlier about @NickPalmer's recent comment on it) then they really have themselves (and the other non-Cons) to blame.
The commissioner for standards will not be resigning and will serve her full term to December 22
Guess if everyone else is in it for the ££££ why should we expect her to lose six weeks pay because of the lack of Tory shame?
December 2022 though
Sorry misinterpreted as 22nd December. I think my cynical point still stands. If the government and the PM are determined to allow corruption at the heart of public life, we cannot really expect mid level officials to make a pointless and losing stand against them. If they do then great, but if they don't I have sympathy with her position to carry on.
The blame lies with those who enabled a known and shameless liar (well beyond the normal "lies" of politics) to become PM.
And the comments are brutal for the government. The calculation is that the people making these brutal comments will still vote Tory because Brexit / Labour. As I've said for a while I think turnout at the next election will be the real victim of all this.
A lot of Tories did not want to be associated with this vote
And yet because of their cowardice they all are. Absolutely disgraceful from the government and the MPs. The opposition completely caught napping as well given the level of Tory abstentions.
Yes, a missed opportunity.
I'm genuinely cross about this. I care a lot about standards and processes, and that extends to changing process through an appropriate process. That means legitimate concerns are carefully considered, not a last minute fudge whipped up by the whips.
Also, when is a 'review's not a review? As the details of the vote are predicated on already concluding not both the problem but the solution.
I'm not inclined to emotional outbursts, but despite heroic efforts at justification to elide a personal complaint with principle, this looks like a f*cking disgrace.
Another bellwether tolls. I think this is where the hubris-led fall starts its journey. Pretty soon - but maybe not soon enough for the GE - it will be Broken Sleazy Tories On The Slide.
The commissioner for standards will not be resigning and will serve her full term to December 22
Guess if everyone else is in it for the ££££ why should we expect her to lose six weeks pay because of the lack of Tory shame?
December 2022 though
Sorry misinterpreted as 22nd December. I think my cynical point still stands. If the government and the PM are determined to allow corruption at the heart of public life, we cannot really expect mid level officials to make a pointless and losing stand against them. If they do then great, but if they don't I have sympathy with her position to carry on.
The blame lies with those who enabled a known and shameless liar (well beyond the normal "lies" of politics) to become PM.
Labour's @AngelaRayner confirms party won't take part in new standards system: "Labour will not be taking any part in this sham process or any corrupt committee."
Lots of journos saying this is a problem, but this is exactly the result they wanted. Judge and jury on themselves.
Then why didn't Lab et al vote against it?
Have missed the details if this has been addressed.
In the main they did- certainly they didn't back the Leadsom plan.
What we don't know is the degree to which the abstentions were real (don't know/CBA) as opposed to pairing pseudo-abstentions. Or MPs who didn't expect a big close vote today.
But I'd a government wants to play hardball (and a three line whip on this is hardball) and starts with an 80 majority, there's not a lot an opposition can do.
Moral: don't lose elections by a big margin.
Yes true but turn up to vote ffs. 80 is a big enough majority, meanwhile Tory grandees were on the airwaves saying they'd vote against.
If they weren't paired (see my comments earlier about @NickPalmer's recent comment on it) then they really have themselves (and the other non-Cons) to blame.
I mean it is the Houses of Parliament. Where votes are cast and policies therefore enacted or not.
I saw a post earlier saying that if all the opposition parties had voted against then it may have been defeated. I would boot pairing into the deep blue yonder, frankly. Plus any Lab MP who wasn't paired needs to be binned.
Once again, even Jeremy Corbyn understood what an Opposition was for.
A lot of Tories did not want to be associated with this vote
And yet because of their cowardice they all are. Absolutely disgraceful from the government and the MPs. The opposition completely caught napping as well given the level of Tory abstentions.
Yes, a missed opportunity.
I'm genuinely cross about this. I care a lot about standards and processes, and that extends to changing process through an appropriate process. That means legitimate concerns are carefully considered, not a last minute fudge whipped up by the whips.
Also, when is a 'review's not a review? As the details of the vote are predicated on already concluding not both the problem but the solution.
I'm not inclined to emotional outbursts, but despite heroic efforts at justification to elide a personal complaint with principle, this looks like a f*cking disgrace.
Another bellwether tolls. I think this is where the hubris-led fall starts its journey. Pretty soon - but maybe not soon enough for the GE - it will be Broken Sleazy Tories On The Slide.
You're engaging in wishful thinking, but there's a chance you're right.
Just needed a few more to show actual courage and it'd have been defeated and those intentional 'defiers' could have had at least some credit for doing that much. As it is it just makes them look cowardly for not standing up to be counted.
The commissioner for standards will not be resigning and will serve her full term to December 22
Guess if everyone else is in it for the ££££ why should we expect her to lose six weeks pay because of the lack of Tory shame?
December 2022 though
Sorry misinterpreted as 22nd December. I think my cynical point still stands. If the government and the PM are determined to allow corruption at the heart of public life, we cannot really expect mid level officials to make a pointless and losing stand against them. If they do then great, but if they don't I have sympathy with her position to carry on.
The blame lies with those who enabled a known and shameless liar (well beyond the normal "lies" of politics) to become PM.
The electorate then
Not really, they were given a choice of him or Corbyn. Tory MPs putting him through to the membership ballot when in the previous leadership election over 100 joined a anyone but Boris whatsapp group. They knew he was rotten.
Among other things it shows how much the spectre of Trump still dominates US politics. McAuliffe's dancing was so obviously an attempt to recreate the energy of Trump's YMCA rallies.
Boris Johnson is remaking British politics in his own image - corrupt, dishonest and utterly self-serving. A shameful day for our democracy.
Yep, we are getting exactly what was going to happen once the Tories decided to make a grifting liar their leader.
it is why I voted for Jeremy Hunt
Would that be the same Jeremy Hunt that signed the amendment? 🤔
Everything is relative. Regrettable if he did. Not sure how often he has voted against a three line whip ( I am sure someone with more time than me will tell me). Either way, it is people who supported Boris Johnson, like yourself, that have taken the Tory Party into this sewer.
I respect Jeremy Hunt but had he been Tory leader I doubt he would have got a majority against Corbyn, more a rehash of May's 2017 result. Farage would still have stood BXP candidates in Tory seats so the Tories would have lost more seats to the LDs and I doubt he would have won as many seats from Labour in the Redwall as Boris did, being a Remainer unlike Leaver Boris
As I have said many times, winning an election is very important, but it is what you do when you have won it that counts. I think Mrs T said it somewhat more eloquently but I cant recall the quote.
Boris Johnson is continually forgiven by folk such as yourself because he "won". The reality is the real Tory party lost. They replaced centuries of belief in good governance and statesmanship with ego driven populism and clownish tomfoolery. Britain is a laughing stock. When people talk about patriotism, think of an image of Boris Johnson and ask yourself whether any world leader takes him seriously.
The Conservative members have been leaving in droves for some time now, not least because the paid part of the party has overuled the volunteers at every turn. Now, the Tory organisation is dominated by a clique of professional politicians and the volunteer members, who used to be the party, eiher now simply ignored or silenced or quite often they are actively derided. The members have no power or control.
Now Johnson is moving onto the Conservative voters: he gaslights them at every turn, with insane, economically illiterate policies, Russian donors and a side order of bullshit. He assumes that they will continue to support him.
For the time being he has been right.
He assumes that the electoral system will keep him in power for as long as he wants the job. So far, he is right. However, if the wind were to change then we would not necessarily be looking at the pendulum swinging and Labour returning in a couple of elections time. It is quite possible that the Conservative voter bloc swings strongly away, as they did in Chesham and Amersham. Right now, no one thinks that Labour or, still less the Liberal Democrats, can put up a fight that will knock the Tories out next time. However, Johnson´s confidence in the voters may be rather misplaced. A sustained swing like the "Cleggasm" only this time the voters follow it up, is not impossible, and if a big enough bloc of hitherto Tory voters defects, then the Tories could face implosion.
The historical precedent (the Liberal Party collapse in the 1920s) still suggests a time line of several elections, but if Johnson continues to play with fire, then the timeline becomes a lot more uncertain.
The Conservative Party, the most successful political party in history, that we knew until 2014 is dead. Tbe zombie Tories may not survive a decade.
Not making any comment on the optimistic picture that you paint, but why do you pick the year 2014 as the expiration date for the Conservative Party?
Boris Johnson is remaking British politics in his own image - corrupt, dishonest and utterly self-serving. A shameful day for our democracy.
Yep, we are getting exactly what was going to happen once the Tories decided to make a grifting liar their leader.
it is why I voted for Jeremy Hunt
Would that be the same Jeremy Hunt that signed the amendment? 🤔
Everything is relative. Regrettable if he did. Not sure how often he has voted against a three line whip ( I am sure someone with more time than me will tell me). Either way, it is people who supported Boris Johnson, like yourself, that have taken the Tory Party into this sewer.
I respect Jeremy Hunt but had he been Tory leader I doubt he would have got a majority against Corbyn, more a rehash of May's 2017 result. Farage would still have stood BXP candidates in Tory seats so the Tories would have lost more seats to the LDs and I doubt he would have won as many seats from Labour in the Redwall as Boris did, being a Remainer unlike Leaver Boris
As I have said many times, winning an election is very important, but it is what you do when you have won it that counts. I think Mrs T said it somewhat more eloquently but I cant recall the quote.
Boris Johnson is continually forgiven by folk such as yourself because he "won". The reality is the real Tory party lost. They replaced centuries of belief in good governance and statesmanship with ego driven populism and clownish tomfoolery. Britain is a laughing stock. When people talk about patriotism, think of an image of Boris Johnson and ask yourself whether any world leader takes him seriously.
Yes we know full well Biden takes him seriously. Hence AUKUS etc
Just because you don't, doesn't mean people like Biden are as deluded with clown metaphors as you are.
I am deluded? It is called diplomacy you silly boy. You think Biden admires him and this is the reason for AUKUS? Oh dear lol!
Who says anything about admires? Not me.
Biden engages in realpolitik which means taking other leaders seriously.
Boris does the exact same thing.
Admiration isn't something that world leaders should be engaging in.
He is a joke, in the same way Trump is perceived to be a joke. Funny how you run to his defence. Such a similarity between you and the Trumpians the other side of the pond.
The only PM in recent years who was a joke was his predecessor, whom other leaders openly mocked.
Cake, no cherries, Prime Minister.
She wasn't great, but she was not dishonest and she was not a joke. Perhaps you think that because she is female? Is belief in misogyny a requirement for fanbois of The Clown?
She was nasty, xenophobic and a joke. She was openly mocked by all and sundry even Donald Tusk thought she was a punchline.
Her gender has nothing to do with why she was a crap PM. Thatcher was a great PM and my preferred successor to Boris other than my own tip Sunak would be Truss.
92% of the country voted against May in her final election. That's not misogyny it's her record as our worst and least suitable PM in centuries.
Miss Moorehead @MissMooreheadCV · Nov 1 P3B have been preparing for Thursday, when P6 are encouraging everybody to wear a skirt to raise awareness of #LaRopaNoTieneGenero, or as our lovely posters say ‘clothing has no gender’ @MissWhiteCV@MissMcGroryCV.
I think this type of thing will seem very normal by this time next year.
Yes, Peak Woke will never happen, it will just continue and worsen
You have to wonder how mad it might get
2020 went beyond what happened in 1968. The revolution will keep going until it reaches some sort of limit: either it collapses due to the absurdity of its own contradictions, or it gets attacked from outside. All you can really do is try and stay out of its way.
The absent @SeanT, erstwhile citizen of this same manor, posits in the Spectator that Woke is actually a proper new religion, and will thus endure
Let us hope that, as always, he is entirely wrong and befuddled by The Drink
For woke to be a new religion (rather than a variant of christianity, as suggested by some) it needs to travel. And from what I can see, it isn't doing that - quite the reverse.
It is certainly spreading in the English speaking world, and now - bizarrely - into India
I notice that the "Telegraph" has been very sychophantic towards Patterson in its coverage, apart from a critical opinion piece in today's issue from Chris Bryant, whereas the "Mail" has been scathing towards Patterson and Johnson.
When Dave sacked Patterson several years ago, the Spectator ran piece proclaiming that his (deplorable and idiotic) sacking could only end up being absolutely fantastic news for Nigel Farage. Complete drivel of course, but it does demonstrate that there is a strange mystique surrounding Patterson at the magazine.
The commissioner for standards will not be resigning and will serve her full term to December 22
Guess if everyone else is in it for the ££££ why should we expect her to lose six weeks pay because of the lack of Tory shame?
December 2022 though
Sorry misinterpreted as 22nd December. I think my cynical point still stands. If the government and the PM are determined to allow corruption at the heart of public life, we cannot really expect mid level officials to make a pointless and losing stand against them. If they do then great, but if they don't I have sympathy with her position to carry on.
The blame lies with those who enabled a known and shameless liar (well beyond the normal "lies" of politics) to become PM.
The electorate then
Not really, they were given a choice of him or Corbyn. Tory MPs putting him through to the membership ballot when in the previous leadership election over 100 joined a anyone but Boris whatsapp group. They knew he was rotten.
Ultimately it is the electorate who put parties into power and it is upto losing parties to win back the votes
You can ask why labour and the lib dems are failing to cut through in these crazy times
Dear God, the lack of comprehension is hilarious. "But but its Trump - people *hate* him"
The issue is they *hate* him so can't see why other people may like Trump.
This is one of the biggest issues both the Democrats (and Labour) have. Their preferred attacks points just don't work for voters who are not left wing.
The Tories are even worse than I thought. Although I'm yet to see the detailed breakdown, given there are 361 Tory MPs and only 250 votes were in favour, it looks like a lot of the remaining 111 abstained - especially as only 482 votes were cast. It can't just be pairing. How the f**k can you abstain on a cut and dried motion like this? Pure cowardice, I'd suggest.
Only 13 / 45 SNP 11 / 12 LD 1 / 3 PC 1 / 2 Alba 1 / 2 SDLP 2 / 6 Independent (1 / 6 Independent voted Aye)
0 / 8 DUP (1 / 8 DUP voted Aye)
So the opposition really could have won this. Its a shame none of the Opposition MPs who wanted this to be carried felt free to vote Aye instead of abstaining.
The commissioner for standards will not be resigning and will serve her full term to December 22
Guess if everyone else is in it for the ££££ why should we expect her to lose six weeks pay because of the lack of Tory shame?
December 2022 though
Sorry misinterpreted as 22nd December. I think my cynical point still stands. If the government and the PM are determined to allow corruption at the heart of public life, we cannot really expect mid level officials to make a pointless and losing stand against them. If they do then great, but if they don't I have sympathy with her position to carry on.
The blame lies with those who enabled a known and shameless liar (well beyond the normal "lies" of politics) to become PM.
The electorate then
No. The members of the Conservative Party. The electorate couldn't and can't choose the PM.
Labour's @AngelaRayner confirms party won't take part in new standards system: "Labour will not be taking any part in this sham process or any corrupt committee."
Lots of journos saying this is a problem, but this is exactly the result they wanted. Judge and jury on themselves.
Then why didn't Lab et al vote against it?
Have missed the details if this has been addressed.
In the main they did- certainly they didn't back the Leadsom plan.
What we don't know is the degree to which the abstentions were real (don't know/CBA) as opposed to pairing pseudo-abstentions. Or MPs who didn't expect a big close vote today.
But I'd a government wants to play hardball (and a three line whip on this is hardball) and starts with an 80 majority, there's not a lot an opposition can do.
Moral: don't lose elections by a big margin.
Yes true but turn up to vote ffs. 80 is a big enough majority, meanwhile Tory grandees were on the airwaves saying they'd vote against.
If they weren't paired (see my comments earlier about @NickPalmer's recent comment on it) then they really have themselves (and the other non-Cons) to blame.
I mean it is the Houses of Parliament. Where votes are cast and policies therefore enacted or not.
I saw a post earlier saying that if all the opposition parties had voted against then it may have been defeated. I would boot pairing into the deep blue yonder, frankly. Plus any Lab MP who wasn't paired needs to be binned.
Once again, even Jeremy Corbyn understood what an Opposition was for.
got back an read the posts above.
60 Tory MPs with permission not to vote. 28 Labour MPs is way less than 60 - so it's fair to assume every Labour MP who didn't vote is paired with a Tory MP.
And the comments are brutal for the government. The calculation is that the people making these brutal comments will still vote Tory because Brexit / Labour. As I've said for a while I think turnout at the next election will be the real victim of all this.
If that is a strike of erstwhile Tories, then we could get quite a few very strange results. There was not a strike on C&A though, I think plenty of former Tories will vote against Johnson.
Miss Moorehead @MissMooreheadCV · Nov 1 P3B have been preparing for Thursday, when P6 are encouraging everybody to wear a skirt to raise awareness of #LaRopaNoTieneGenero, or as our lovely posters say ‘clothing has no gender’ @MissWhiteCV@MissMcGroryCV.
I think this type of thing will seem very normal by this time next year.
Yes, Peak Woke will never happen, it will just continue and worsen
You have to wonder how mad it might get
2020 went beyond what happened in 1968. The revolution will keep going until it reaches some sort of limit: either it collapses due to the absurdity of its own contradictions, or it gets attacked from outside. All you can really do is try and stay out of its way.
The absent @SeanT, erstwhile citizen of this same manor, posits in the Spectator that Woke is actually a proper new religion, and will thus endure
Let us hope that, as always, he is entirely wrong and befuddled by The Drink
For woke to be a new religion (rather than a variant of christianity, as suggested by some) it needs to travel. And from what I can see, it isn't doing that - quite the reverse.
It is certainly spreading in the English speaking world, and now - bizarrely - into India
Miss Moorehead @MissMooreheadCV · Nov 1 P3B have been preparing for Thursday, when P6 are encouraging everybody to wear a skirt to raise awareness of #LaRopaNoTieneGenero, or as our lovely posters say ‘clothing has no gender’ @MissWhiteCV@MissMcGroryCV.
I think this type of thing will seem very normal by this time next year.
Yes, Peak Woke will never happen, it will just continue and worsen
You have to wonder how mad it might get
2020 went beyond what happened in 1968. The revolution will keep going until it reaches some sort of limit: either it collapses due to the absurdity of its own contradictions, or it gets attacked from outside. All you can really do is try and stay out of its way.
The absent @SeanT, erstwhile citizen of this same manor, posits in the Spectator that Woke is actually a proper new religion, and will thus endure
Let us hope that, as always, he is entirely wrong and befuddled by The Drink
For woke to be a new religion (rather than a variant of christianity, as suggested by some) it needs to travel. And from what I can see, it isn't doing that - quite the reverse.
It is certainly spreading in the English speaking world, and now - bizarrely - into India
As far as I can see it is an anglo saxon thing, largely driven by post colonial guilt.
It has origins going way back to obscure, extreme American race and gender studies of the 1960s, with half a nod to Cultural Marxism. From there the fungus slowly infested sociology, then anthropology, geography, and in the last decade pretty much all of academe
And in the last few years, it has exploded everywhere. Shedding spores
It is dangerous because it is so similar to a religion. It replaces religion, by offering the same absolute moral certainties, in a bewildering world. There is no arguing with Woke. You either submit and agree, as in Islam, or you are haram. A racist or a transphobe or whatever. That's it
Boris Johnson is remaking British politics in his own image - corrupt, dishonest and utterly self-serving. A shameful day for our democracy.
Yep, we are getting exactly what was going to happen once the Tories decided to make a grifting liar their leader.
it is why I voted for Jeremy Hunt
Would that be the same Jeremy Hunt that signed the amendment? 🤔
Everything is relative. Regrettable if he did. Not sure how often he has voted against a three line whip ( I am sure someone with more time than me will tell me). Either way, it is people who supported Boris Johnson, like yourself, that have taken the Tory Party into this sewer.
I respect Jeremy Hunt but had he been Tory leader I doubt he would have got a majority against Corbyn, more a rehash of May's 2017 result. Farage would still have stood BXP candidates in Tory seats so the Tories would have lost more seats to the LDs and I doubt he would have won as many seats from Labour in the Redwall as Boris did, being a Remainer unlike Leaver Boris
As I have said many times, winning an election is very important, but it is what you do when you have won it that counts. I think Mrs T said it somewhat more eloquently but I cant recall the quote.
Boris Johnson is continually forgiven by folk such as yourself because he "won". The reality is the real Tory party lost. They replaced centuries of belief in good governance and statesmanship with ego driven populism and clownish tomfoolery. Britain is a laughing stock. When people talk about patriotism, think of an image of Boris Johnson and ask yourself whether any world leader takes him seriously.
The Conservative members have been leaving in droves for some time now, not least because the paid part of the party has overuled the volunteers at every turn. Now, the Tory organisation is dominated by a clique of professional politicians and the volunteer members, who used to be the party, eiher now simply ignored or silenced or quite often they are actively derided. The members have no power or control.
Now Johnson is moving onto the Conservative voters: he gaslights them at every turn, with insane, economically illiterate policies, Russian donors and a side order of bullshit. He assumes that they will continue to support him.
For the time being he has been right.
He assumes that the electoral system will keep him in power for as long as he wants the job. So far, he is right. However, if the wind were to change then we would not necessarily be looking at the pendulum swinging and Labour returning in a couple of elections time. It is quite possible that the Conservative voter bloc swings strongly away, as they did in Chesham and Amersham. Right now, no one thinks that Labour or, still less the Liberal Democrats, can put up a fight that will knock the Tories out next time. However, Johnson´s confidence in the voters may be rather misplaced. A sustained swing like the "Cleggasm" only this time the voters follow it up, is not impossible, and if a big enough bloc of hitherto Tory voters defects, then the Tories could face implosion.
The historical precedent (the Liberal Party collapse in the 1920s) still suggests a time line of several elections, but if Johnson continues to play with fire, then the timeline becomes a lot more uncertain.
The Conservative Party, the most successful political party in history, that we knew until 2014 is dead. Tbe zombie Tories may not survive a decade.
Not making any comment on the optimistic picture that you paint, but why do you pick the year 2014 as the expiration date for the Conservative Party?
The fateful decision to make the EU referendum a full manifesto commitment.
A lot of Tories did not want to be associated with this vote
And yet because of their cowardice they all are. Absolutely disgraceful from the government and the MPs. The opposition completely caught napping as well given the level of Tory abstentions.
To be fair given his wife took suicide over this issue I think he has already suffered enough. I expect a few opposition MPs felt the same as clearly did most Tory MPs.
Suspending him for a month would really not have done much and just set back his constituency work anyway, even if I would probably not have voted for the Leadsom amendment myself.
If his electors are still annoyed with him then let them vote him out at the next general election
What an utterly specious argument, even by your own dismal standards. By you logic, MPs needn't have a disciplinary process at all - leave it all to the election. Those in safe seats (like Patterson) would be practically immune under that process - very little chance his appalling, egregious breach of paid lobbying rules would trump the likely desire of his constituents for a Tory Government in 2023/24.
The "already suffered enough" line is similarly nonsensical. Patterson has shamelessly used the tragic death of his wife to deflect from his corrupt actions before that happened. He claims the pressure of the disciplinary process contributed to her death. Nobody here can know if that is true or not. But we do know WHY there was a disciplinary process... it's because Mr Patterson repeatedly, blatantly abused his position and privileges to feather his nest. Try a similar line at sentencing in the Crown Court and see how far it gets you.
That is largely my view actually.
MPs employers are their constituents and their local party, not Parliament. Parliament is there to serve MPs and Lords not the other way round.
If their local party or their constituents dislike what they are doing they can deselect them or vote them out at election time.
As I said he is not facing any criminal charges so Crown Court sentencing is not relevant
It's entirely relevant. Fairness to the person who has been found guilty of misconduct is MORE important the more serious the repercussions, such as criminal penalties in a Crown Court trial, not LESS important.
So if a judge would give short shrift to an argument that you should be treated leniently because of the impact on others in your life of the trial (which you as the guilty party had done more than anyone to cause) then it's DOUBLY the case in the current situation.
That you feel there shouldn't be a disciplinary process at all speaks volumes of you personally, and there is no need to respond further.
Given there was no criminal activity in this case clearly the penalties of a Crown Court trial are not relevant. Had Patterson committed a criminal offence and been found guilty he would have faced criminal sanction, even jail, regardless of his wife's suicide. However he faced no criminal sanction so his fellow MPs could decide whether they wanted to impose any sanctions on him or not over his lobbying work given the context.
I stand by my view MPs should be judged solely at election time or by their local parties as they always used to be. They are elected for 5 year terms and unless they get a substantial prison sentence should be allowed to complete that term and judged on how they performed at it at the next election
I honestly believe that, looking at a summary of the postings you have made on here over the last few years from supporting the beating of Spanish Grandmothers to threatening to use tanks against Scotland, if you could actually get rid of elections altogether and just have permanent Tory rule by decree then that would suit you down to the ground.
A lot of Tories did not want to be associated with this vote
And yet because of their cowardice they all are. Absolutely disgraceful from the government and the MPs. The opposition completely caught napping as well given the level of Tory abstentions.
Yes, a missed opportunity.
I'm genuinely cross about this. I care a lot about standards and processes, and that extends to changing process through an appropriate process. That means legitimate concerns are carefully considered, not a last minute fudge whipped up by the whips.
Also, when is a 'review's not a review? As the details of the vote are predicated on already concluding not both the problem but the solution.
I'm not inclined to emotional outbursts, but despite heroic efforts at justification to elide a personal complaint with principle, this looks like a f*cking disgrace.
Another bellwether tolls. I think this is where the hubris-led fall starts its journey. Pretty soon - but maybe not soon enough for the GE - it will be Broken Sleazy Tories On The Slide.
I rather fear Northern_Al is more correct that these things do not resonate enough.
The commissioner for standards will not be resigning and will serve her full term to December 22
Guess if everyone else is in it for the ££££ why should we expect her to lose six weeks pay because of the lack of Tory shame?
December 2022 though
Sorry misinterpreted as 22nd December. I think my cynical point still stands. If the government and the PM are determined to allow corruption at the heart of public life, we cannot really expect mid level officials to make a pointless and losing stand against them. If they do then great, but if they don't I have sympathy with her position to carry on.
The blame lies with those who enabled a known and shameless liar (well beyond the normal "lies" of politics) to become PM.
The electorate then
Not really, they were given a choice of him or Corbyn. Tory MPs putting him through to the membership ballot when in the previous leadership election over 100 joined a anyone but Boris whatsapp group. They knew he was rotten.
Ultimately it is the electorate who put parties into power and it is upto losing parties to win back the votes
You can ask why labour and the lib dems are failing to cut through in these crazy times
Labour were crazy to elect Corbyn and I have always criticised the Labour MPs who enabled him, despite knowing him to be unsuitable. I shall do the same with Tory MPs who enabled Johnson.
The Tories are even worse than I thought. Although I'm yet to see the detailed breakdown, given there are 361 Tory MPs and only 250 votes were in favour, it looks like a lot of the remaining 111 abstained - especially as only 482 votes were cast. It can't just be pairing. How the f**k can you abstain on a cut and dried motion like this? Pure cowardice, I'd suggest.
Only 13 / 45 SNP 11 / 12 LD 1 / 3 PC 1 / 2 Alba 1 / 2 SDLP 2 / 6 Independent (1 / 6 Independent voted Aye)
0 / 8 DUP (1 / 8 DUP voted Aye)
So the opposition really could have won this. Its a shame none of the Opposition MPs who wanted this to be carried felt free to vote Aye instead of abstaining.
Never prevent let your opponents making mistakes?
They would have immeasurably weakened the govt if they had defeated this. Shown to be taking the moral high ground and condemning the Cons to wallow in the sleaze.
Do you think anyone in CCHQ is spending more than 0.4 seconds worrying about this non-defeat?
The commissioner for standards will not be resigning and will serve her full term to December 22
Guess if everyone else is in it for the ££££ why should we expect her to lose six weeks pay because of the lack of Tory shame?
December 2022 though
Sorry misinterpreted as 22nd December. I think my cynical point still stands. If the government and the PM are determined to allow corruption at the heart of public life, we cannot really expect mid level officials to make a pointless and losing stand against them. If they do then great, but if they don't I have sympathy with her position to carry on.
The blame lies with those who enabled a known and shameless liar (well beyond the normal "lies" of politics) to become PM.
The electorate then
No. The members of the Conservative Party. The electorate couldn't and can't choose the PM.
They voted for him and the party with an 80 seat majority
Boris Johnson is remaking British politics in his own image - corrupt, dishonest and utterly self-serving. A shameful day for our democracy.
Yep, we are getting exactly what was going to happen once the Tories decided to make a grifting liar their leader.
it is why I voted for Jeremy Hunt
Would that be the same Jeremy Hunt that signed the amendment? 🤔
Everything is relative. Regrettable if he did. Not sure how often he has voted against a three line whip ( I am sure someone with more time than me will tell me). Either way, it is people who supported Boris Johnson, like yourself, that have taken the Tory Party into this sewer.
I respect Jeremy Hunt but had he been Tory leader I doubt he would have got a majority against Corbyn, more a rehash of May's 2017 result. Farage would still have stood BXP candidates in Tory seats so the Tories would have lost more seats to the LDs and I doubt he would have won as many seats from Labour in the Redwall as Boris did, being a Remainer unlike Leaver Boris
As I have said many times, winning an election is very important, but it is what you do when you have won it that counts. I think Mrs T said it somewhat more eloquently but I cant recall the quote.
Boris Johnson is continually forgiven by folk such as yourself because he "won". The reality is the real Tory party lost. They replaced centuries of belief in good governance and statesmanship with ego driven populism and clownish tomfoolery. Britain is a laughing stock. When people talk about patriotism, think of an image of Boris Johnson and ask yourself whether any world leader takes him seriously.
The Conservative members have been leaving in droves for some time now, not least because the paid part of the party has overuled the volunteers at every turn. Now, the Tory organisation is dominated by a clique of professional politicians and the volunteer members, who used to be the party, eiher now simply ignored or silenced or quite often they are actively derided. The members have no power or control.
Now Johnson is moving onto the Conservative voters: he gaslights them at every turn, with insane, economically illiterate policies, Russian donors and a side order of bullshit. He assumes that they will continue to support him.
For the time being he has been right.
He assumes that the electoral system will keep him in power for as long as he wants the job. So far, he is right. However, if the wind were to change then we would not necessarily be looking at the pendulum swinging and Labour returning in a couple of elections time. It is quite possible that the Conservative voter bloc swings strongly away, as they did in Chesham and Amersham. Right now, no one thinks that Labour or, still less the Liberal Democrats, can put up a fight that will knock the Tories out next time. However, Johnson´s confidence in the voters may be rather misplaced. A sustained swing like the "Cleggasm" only this time the voters follow it up, is not impossible, and if a big enough bloc of hitherto Tory voters defects, then the Tories could face implosion.
The historical precedent (the Liberal Party collapse in the 1920s) still suggests a time line of several elections, but if Johnson continues to play with fire, then the timeline becomes a lot more uncertain.
The Conservative Party, the most successful political party in history, that we knew until 2014 is dead. Tbe zombie Tories may not survive a decade.
Not making any comment on the optimistic picture that you paint, but why do you pick the year 2014 as the expiration date for the Conservative Party?
The fateful decision to make the EU referendum a full manifesto commitment.
A lot of Tories did not want to be associated with this vote
And yet because of their cowardice they all are. Absolutely disgraceful from the government and the MPs. The opposition completely caught napping as well given the level of Tory abstentions.
Yes, a missed opportunity.
I'm genuinely cross about this. I care a lot about standards and processes, and that extends to changing process through an appropriate process. That means legitimate concerns are carefully considered, not a last minute fudge whipped up by the whips.
Also, when is a 'review's not a review? As the details of the vote are predicated on already concluding not both the problem but the solution.
I'm not inclined to emotional outbursts, but despite heroic efforts at justification to elide a personal complaint with principle, this looks like a f*cking disgrace.
Another bellwether tolls. I think this is where the hubris-led fall starts its journey. Pretty soon - but maybe not soon enough for the GE - it will be Broken Sleazy Tories On The Slide.
I rather fear NorthernAl is more correct that these things do not resonate enough.
Oh, let us not be in any doubt, one mention of France and fish and all will be forgiven.
Unlike so many other unpopular moves, this Patterson vote is one that the government cannot u-turn on. They own it completely and irrevocably. There is no wriggle room whatsoever. Good.
The Tories are even worse than I thought. Although I'm yet to see the detailed breakdown, given there are 361 Tory MPs and only 250 votes were in favour, it looks like a lot of the remaining 111 abstained - especially as only 482 votes were cast. It can't just be pairing. How the f**k can you abstain on a cut and dried motion like this? Pure cowardice, I'd suggest.
Only 13 / 45 SNP 11 / 12 LD 1 / 3 PC 1 / 2 Alba 1 / 2 SDLP 2 / 6 Independent (1 / 6 Independent voted Aye)
0 / 8 DUP (1 / 8 DUP voted Aye)
So the opposition really could have won this. Its a shame none of the Opposition MPs who wanted this to be carried felt free to vote Aye instead of abstaining.
Never prevent let your opponents making mistakes?
They would have immeasurably weakened the govt if they had defeated this. Shown to be taking the moral high ground and condemning the Cons to wallow in the sleaze.
Do you think anyone in CCHQ is spending more than 0.4 seconds worrying about this non-defeat?
Sadly true. They will learn no lessons from this except that might is right.
Twelve trans prisoners convicted of violence or sexual crimes have been accommodated in Scottish women’s jails within the past 18 months, according to figures released under Freedom of Information laws.
A long-awaited review by the Scottish Prison Service (SPS) into Scotland’s transgender prison policy will consider ending the rare practice of transitioning male inmates demanding a move to female housing.
Only one of the prisoners had completed transition and the other 11 were self-identifying as female, it has emerged.
So they are considering ending this rare practice. What is it you're worried about? Why are you saying "what could possibly go wrong?" like that? I don't quite follow.
You don't find the idea of a woman being imprisoned in the same prison as another prisoner with a male body, convicted of sexual violence against women, to be chilling?
There are few more terrifying scenarios.
I don't see it per se as chilling - it depends on various things - but neither do I think it should be the unquestioned norm. I think the system should be that a person who is convicted of a crime and is transgender can request (not demand) that they be accommodated in a prison of their (now) gender and it gets assessed on a case-by-case basis. What happens atm in Scotland, do you know?
The commissioner for standards will not be resigning and will serve her full term to December 22
Guess if everyone else is in it for the ££££ why should we expect her to lose six weeks pay because of the lack of Tory shame?
December 2022 though
Sorry misinterpreted as 22nd December. I think my cynical point still stands. If the government and the PM are determined to allow corruption at the heart of public life, we cannot really expect mid level officials to make a pointless and losing stand against them. If they do then great, but if they don't I have sympathy with her position to carry on.
The blame lies with those who enabled a known and shameless liar (well beyond the normal "lies" of politics) to become PM.
The electorate then
Not really, they were given a choice of him or Corbyn. Tory MPs putting him through to the membership ballot when in the previous leadership election over 100 joined a anyone but Boris whatsapp group. They knew he was rotten.
Ultimately it is the electorate who put parties into power and it is upto losing parties to win back the votes
You can ask why labour and the lib dems are failing to cut through in these crazy times
Absolutely valid point. Opposition parties just don't benefit from the way they used to. Question though is whether the government should be exploiting this to drive through good things - why governments are supposed to be elected - or continue to bin the rules and roll around in the mud of open corruption.
No other Tory PM would be doing this. Because its wrong.
A lot of Tories did not want to be associated with this vote
And yet because of their cowardice they all are. Absolutely disgraceful from the government and the MPs. The opposition completely caught napping as well given the level of Tory abstentions.
To be fair given his wife took suicide over this issue I think he has already suffered enough. I expect a few opposition MPs felt the same as clearly did most Tory MPs.
Suspending him for a month would really not have done much and just set back his constituency work anyway, even if I would probably not have voted for the Leadsom amendment myself.
If his electors are still annoyed with him then let them vote him out at the next general election
What an utterly specious argument, even by your own dismal standards. By you logic, MPs needn't have a disciplinary process at all - leave it all to the election. Those in safe seats (like Patterson) would be practically immune under that process - very little chance his appalling, egregious breach of paid lobbying rules would trump the likely desire of his constituents for a Tory Government in 2023/24.
The "already suffered enough" line is similarly nonsensical. Patterson has shamelessly used the tragic death of his wife to deflect from his corrupt actions before that happened. He claims the pressure of the disciplinary process contributed to her death. Nobody here can know if that is true or not. But we do know WHY there was a disciplinary process... it's because Mr Patterson repeatedly, blatantly abused his position and privileges to feather his nest. Try a similar line at sentencing in the Crown Court and see how far it gets you.
That is largely my view actually.
MPs employers are their constituents and their local party, not Parliament. Parliament is there to serve MPs and Lords not the other way round.
If their local party or their constituents dislike what they are doing they can deselect them or vote them out at election time.
As I said he is not facing any criminal charges so Crown Court sentencing is not relevant
It's entirely relevant. Fairness to the person who has been found guilty of misconduct is MORE important the more serious the repercussions, such as criminal penalties in a Crown Court trial, not LESS important.
So if a judge would give short shrift to an argument that you should be treated leniently because of the impact on others in your life of the trial (which you as the guilty party had done more than anyone to cause) then it's DOUBLY the case in the current situation.
That you feel there shouldn't be a disciplinary process at all speaks volumes of you personally, and there is no need to respond further.
Given there was no criminal activity in this case clearly the penalties of a Crown Court trial are not relevant. Had Patterson committed a criminal offence and been found guilty he would have faced criminal sanction, even jail, regardless of his wife's suicide. However he faced no criminal sanction so his fellow MPs could decide whether they wanted to impose any sanctions on him or not over his lobbying work given the context.
I stand by my view MPs should be judged solely at election time or by their local parties as they always used to be. They are elected for 5 year terms and unless they get a substantial prison sentence should be allowed to complete that term and judged on how they performed at it at the next election
You have utterly missed my point.
Let me take you through it slowly.
The more serious the sanctions on the table, the more important it is to guarantee fair treatment to the accused. That is why the highest level of protection applies in the Crown Court, because serious criminal sanctions are on the table.
Criminal sanctions are not on the table in an MP's disciplinary case. So the protections afforded to the accused can hardly be expected to be greater.
So, if the impact of the process on the health of family members of the accused isn't relevant in the Crown Court (particularly, but not only, because that impact is the fault of the accused first and foremost) then it is ludicrous to suggest it's a mitigation for the MP. That would mean giving greater protections in a case where the consequences for the accused are less, which is madness.
A lot of Tories did not want to be associated with this vote
And yet because of their cowardice they all are. Absolutely disgraceful from the government and the MPs. The opposition completely caught napping as well given the level of Tory abstentions.
Yes, a missed opportunity.
I'm genuinely cross about this. I care a lot about standards and processes, and that extends to changing process through an appropriate process. That means legitimate concerns are carefully considered, not a last minute fudge whipped up by the whips.
Also, when is a 'review's not a review? As the details of the vote are predicated on already concluding not both the problem but the solution.
I'm not inclined to emotional outbursts, but despite heroic efforts at justification to elide a personal complaint with principle, this looks like a f*cking disgrace.
Another bellwether tolls. I think this is where the hubris-led fall starts its journey. Pretty soon - but maybe not soon enough for the GE - it will be Broken Sleazy Tories On The Slide.
You're engaging in wishful thinking, but there's a chance you're right.
Another bale of straw has been hefted up onto the poor camel.
Labour's @AngelaRayner confirms party won't take part in new standards system: "Labour will not be taking any part in this sham process or any corrupt committee."
Lots of journos saying this is a problem, but this is exactly the result they wanted. Judge and jury on themselves.
Then why didn't Lab et al vote against it?
Have missed the details if this has been addressed.
In the main they did- certainly they didn't back the Leadsom plan.
What we don't know is the degree to which the abstentions were real (don't know/CBA) as opposed to pairing pseudo-abstentions. Or MPs who didn't expect a big close vote today.
But I'd a government wants to play hardball (and a three line whip on this is hardball) and starts with an 80 majority, there's not a lot an opposition can do.
Moral: don't lose elections by a big margin.
Yes true but turn up to vote ffs. 80 is a big enough majority, meanwhile Tory grandees were on the airwaves saying they'd vote against.
If they weren't paired (see my comments earlier about @NickPalmer's recent comment on it) then they really have themselves (and the other non-Cons) to blame.
I mean it is the Houses of Parliament. Where votes are cast and policies therefore enacted or not.
I saw a post earlier saying that if all the opposition parties had voted against then it may have been defeated. I would boot pairing into the deep blue yonder, frankly. Plus any Lab MP who wasn't paired needs to be binned.
Once again, even Jeremy Corbyn understood what an Opposition was for.
got back an read the posts above.
60 Tory MPs with permission not to vote. 28 Labour MPs is way less than 60 - so it's fair to assume every Labour MP who didn't vote is paired with a Tory MP.
Miss Moorehead @MissMooreheadCV · Nov 1 P3B have been preparing for Thursday, when P6 are encouraging everybody to wear a skirt to raise awareness of #LaRopaNoTieneGenero, or as our lovely posters say ‘clothing has no gender’ @MissWhiteCV@MissMcGroryCV.
I think this type of thing will seem very normal by this time next year.
Yes, Peak Woke will never happen, it will just continue and worsen
You have to wonder how mad it might get
2020 went beyond what happened in 1968. The revolution will keep going until it reaches some sort of limit: either it collapses due to the absurdity of its own contradictions, or it gets attacked from outside. All you can really do is try and stay out of its way.
The absent @SeanT, erstwhile citizen of this same manor, posits in the Spectator that Woke is actually a proper new religion, and will thus endure
Let us hope that, as always, he is entirely wrong and befuddled by The Drink
For woke to be a new religion (rather than a variant of christianity, as suggested by some) it needs to travel. And from what I can see, it isn't doing that - quite the reverse.
It is certainly spreading in the English speaking world, and now - bizarrely - into India
Miss Moorehead @MissMooreheadCV · Nov 1 P3B have been preparing for Thursday, when P6 are encouraging everybody to wear a skirt to raise awareness of #LaRopaNoTieneGenero, or as our lovely posters say ‘clothing has no gender’ @MissWhiteCV@MissMcGroryCV.
I think this type of thing will seem very normal by this time next year.
Yes, Peak Woke will never happen, it will just continue and worsen
You have to wonder how mad it might get
2020 went beyond what happened in 1968. The revolution will keep going until it reaches some sort of limit: either it collapses due to the absurdity of its own contradictions, or it gets attacked from outside. All you can really do is try and stay out of its way.
The absent @SeanT, erstwhile citizen of this same manor, posits in the Spectator that Woke is actually a proper new religion, and will thus endure
Let us hope that, as always, he is entirely wrong and befuddled by The Drink
For woke to be a new religion (rather than a variant of christianity, as suggested by some) it needs to travel. And from what I can see, it isn't doing that - quite the reverse.
It is certainly spreading in the English speaking world, and now - bizarrely - into India
As far as I can see it is an anglo saxon thing, largely driven by post colonial guilt.
It has origins going way back to obscure, extreme American race and gender studies of the 1960s, with half a nod to Cultural Marxism. From there the fungus slowly infested sociology, then anthropology, geography, and in the last decade pretty much all of academe
And in the last few years, it has exploded everywhere. Shedding spores
It is dangerous because it is so similar to a religion. It replaces religion, by offering the same absolute moral certainties, in a bewildering world. There is no arguing with Woke. You either submit and agree, as in Islam, or you are haram. A racist or a transphobe or whatever. That's it
If you're going to draw parallels with a religion, can you at least get a better understanding of the religion?
The commissioner for standards will not be resigning and will serve her full term to December 22
Guess if everyone else is in it for the ££££ why should we expect her to lose six weeks pay because of the lack of Tory shame?
December 2022 though
Sorry misinterpreted as 22nd December. I think my cynical point still stands. If the government and the PM are determined to allow corruption at the heart of public life, we cannot really expect mid level officials to make a pointless and losing stand against them. If they do then great, but if they don't I have sympathy with her position to carry on.
The blame lies with those who enabled a known and shameless liar (well beyond the normal "lies" of politics) to become PM.
The electorate then
No. The members of the Conservative Party. The electorate couldn't and can't choose the PM.
They get the choice between Incumbent and LOTO - so they do get a bit of choice.
There’s not much us mere voters can do apart from email our MPs and express our view of the latest antics (as well as vote against them at the next election)
The commissioner for standards will not be resigning and will serve her full term to December 22
Guess if everyone else is in it for the ££££ why should we expect her to lose six weeks pay because of the lack of Tory shame?
December 2022 though
Sorry misinterpreted as 22nd December. I think my cynical point still stands. If the government and the PM are determined to allow corruption at the heart of public life, we cannot really expect mid level officials to make a pointless and losing stand against them. If they do then great, but if they don't I have sympathy with her position to carry on.
The blame lies with those who enabled a known and shameless liar (well beyond the normal "lies" of politics) to become PM.
The electorate then
Not really, they were given a choice of him or Corbyn. Tory MPs putting him through to the membership ballot when in the previous leadership election over 100 joined a anyone but Boris whatsapp group. They knew he was rotten.
Ultimately it is the electorate who put parties into power and it is upto losing parties to win back the votes
You can ask why labour and the lib dems are failing to cut through in these crazy times
Absolutely valid point. Opposition parties just don't benefit from the way they used to. Question though is whether the government should be exploiting this to drive through good things - why governments are supposed to be elected - or continue to bin the rules and roll around in the mud of open corruption.
No other Tory PM would be doing this. Because its wrong.
I could see Corbyn as PM doing the same process to protect his comrades. And the Tories who are meh about this, or even defending it today would be absolutely frothing about it.
Sometimes he is actually right about things @DPJHodges I don’t understand the politics in this Owen Patterson vote. What’s the upside for Boris and the government. What does he think he gets out of it. Complete gift for Labour.
There’s not much us mere voters can do apart from email our MPs and express our view of the latest antics (as well as vote against them at the next election)
Unfortunately, my MP is Michael Gove,
At least you know from past experience he'd undermine Boris if the opportunity arose for him to benefit. Sadly that is improbable.
The commissioner for standards will not be resigning and will serve her full term to December 22
Guess if everyone else is in it for the ££££ why should we expect her to lose six weeks pay because of the lack of Tory shame?
December 2022 though
Sorry misinterpreted as 22nd December. I think my cynical point still stands. If the government and the PM are determined to allow corruption at the heart of public life, we cannot really expect mid level officials to make a pointless and losing stand against them. If they do then great, but if they don't I have sympathy with her position to carry on.
The blame lies with those who enabled a known and shameless liar (well beyond the normal "lies" of politics) to become PM.
The electorate then
Not really, they were given a choice of him or Corbyn. Tory MPs putting him through to the membership ballot when in the previous leadership election over 100 joined a anyone but Boris whatsapp group. They knew he was rotten.
Ultimately it is the electorate who put parties into power and it is upto losing parties to win back the votes
You can ask why labour and the lib dems are failing to cut through in these crazy times
Absolutely valid point. Opposition parties just don't benefit from the way they used to. Question though is whether the government should be exploiting this to drive through good things - why governments are supposed to be elected - or continue to bin the rules and roll around in the mud of open corruption.
No other Tory PM would be doing this. Because its wrong.
I could see Corbyn as PM doing the same process to protect his comrades. And the Tories who are meh about this, or even defending it today would be absolutely frothing about it.
It's the classic 'turn the protagonists around' test. It's obvious how it would be seen in that case.
A lot of Tories did not want to be associated with this vote
And yet because of their cowardice they all are. Absolutely disgraceful from the government and the MPs. The opposition completely caught napping as well given the level of Tory abstentions.
To be fair given his wife took suicide over this issue I think he has already suffered enough. I expect a few opposition MPs felt the same as clearly did most Tory MPs.
Suspending him for a month would really not have done much and just set back his constituency work anyway, even if I would probably not have voted for the Leadsom amendment myself.
If his electors are still annoyed with him then let them vote him out at the next general election
What an utterly specious argument, even by your own dismal standards. By you logic, MPs needn't have a disciplinary process at all - leave it all to the election. Those in safe seats (like Patterson) would be practically immune under that process - very little chance his appalling, egregious breach of paid lobbying rules would trump the likely desire of his constituents for a Tory Government in 2023/24.
The "already suffered enough" line is similarly nonsensical. Patterson has shamelessly used the tragic death of his wife to deflect from his corrupt actions before that happened. He claims the pressure of the disciplinary process contributed to her death. Nobody here can know if that is true or not. But we do know WHY there was a disciplinary process... it's because Mr Patterson repeatedly, blatantly abused his position and privileges to feather his nest. Try a similar line at sentencing in the Crown Court and see how far it gets you.
That is largely my view actually.
MPs employers are their constituents and their local party, not Parliament. Parliament is there to serve MPs and Lords not the other way round.
If their local party or their constituents dislike what they are doing they can deselect them or vote them out at election time.
As I said he is not facing any criminal charges so Crown Court sentencing is not relevant
It's entirely relevant. Fairness to the person who has been found guilty of misconduct is MORE important the more serious the repercussions, such as criminal penalties in a Crown Court trial, not LESS important.
So if a judge would give short shrift to an argument that you should be treated leniently because of the impact on others in your life of the trial (which you as the guilty party had done more than anyone to cause) then it's DOUBLY the case in the current situation.
That you feel there shouldn't be a disciplinary process at all speaks volumes of you personally, and there is no need to respond further.
Given there was no criminal activity in this case clearly the penalties of a Crown Court trial are not relevant. Had Patterson committed a criminal offence and been found guilty he would have faced criminal sanction, even jail, regardless of his wife's suicide. However he faced no criminal sanction so his fellow MPs could decide whether they wanted to impose any sanctions on him or not over his lobbying work given the context.
I stand by my view MPs should be judged solely at election time or by their local parties as they always used to be. They are elected for 5 year terms and unless they get a substantial prison sentence should be allowed to complete that term and judged on how they performed at it at the next election
You have utterly missed my point.
Let me take you through it slowly.
The more serious the sanctions on the table, the more important it is to guarantee fair treatment to the accused. That is why the highest level of protection applies in the Crown Court, because serious criminal sanctions are on the table.
Criminal sanctions are not on the table in an MP's disciplinary case. So the protections afforded to the accused can hardly be expected to be greater.
So, if the impact of the process on the health of family members of the accused isn't relevant in the Crown Court (particularly, but not only, because that impact is the fault of the accused first and foremost) then it is ludicrous to suggest it's a mitigation for the MP. That would mean giving greater protections in a case where the consequences for the accused are less, which is madness.
It is important to offer a fair trial yes, especially in criminal trials.
In terms of sanction however for the guilty while in a serious criminal matter the suicide of a family member may not be taken into account, in a non criminal matter like this where the most likely sanction was simply a trivial month's suspension then if MPs wanted to drop that punishment because of the context that is their right to do so.
As I have said I remain of the view in any case MPs should solely be judged by their constituents and local parties anyway not Parliament on how they have performed in their job.
Sometimes he is actually right about things @DPJHodges I don’t understand the politics in this Owen Patterson vote. What’s the upside for Boris and the government. What does he think he gets out of it. Complete gift for Labour.
There’s not much us mere voters can do apart from email our MPs and express our view of the latest antics (as well as vote against them at the next election)
Unfortunately, my MP is Michael Gove,
At least you know from past experience he'd undermine Boris if the opportunity arose for him to benefit. Sadly that is improbable.
The commissioner for standards will not be resigning and will serve her full term to December 22
Guess if everyone else is in it for the ££££ why should we expect her to lose six weeks pay because of the lack of Tory shame?
December 2022 though
Sorry misinterpreted as 22nd December. I think my cynical point still stands. If the government and the PM are determined to allow corruption at the heart of public life, we cannot really expect mid level officials to make a pointless and losing stand against them. If they do then great, but if they don't I have sympathy with her position to carry on.
The blame lies with those who enabled a known and shameless liar (well beyond the normal "lies" of politics) to become PM.
The electorate then
Not really, they were given a choice of him or Corbyn. Tory MPs putting him through to the membership ballot when in the previous leadership election over 100 joined a anyone but Boris whatsapp group. They knew he was rotten.
Ultimately it is the electorate who put parties into power and it is upto losing parties to win back the votes
You can ask why labour and the lib dems are failing to cut through in these crazy times
Absolutely valid point. Opposition parties just don't benefit from the way they used to. Question though is whether the government should be exploiting this to drive through good things - why governments are supposed to be elected - or continue to bin the rules and roll around in the mud of open corruption.
No other Tory PM would be doing this. Because its wrong.
I could see Corbyn as PM doing the same process to protect his comrades. And the Tories who are meh about this, or even defending it today would be absolutely frothing about it.
It's the classic 'turn the protagonists around' test. It's obvious how it would be seen in that case.
To be fair I think a small majority of Tory posters today have unequivocally criticised the decision, still disappointing how many excuses are made by others.
Unlike so many other unpopular moves, this Patterson vote is one that the government cannot u-turn on. They own it completely and irrevocably. There is no wriggle room whatsoever. Good.
At least in the days of duck houses, moat cleaning and stable heating it was just greed. This is far worse. Any member who voted for this amendment voted to permit corruption. They are now accessories in common enterprise to loot the public purse for themselves and their mates.
I would be interested if anyone has a list of abstentions/rebels.
Miss Moorehead @MissMooreheadCV · Nov 1 P3B have been preparing for Thursday, when P6 are encouraging everybody to wear a skirt to raise awareness of #LaRopaNoTieneGenero, or as our lovely posters say ‘clothing has no gender’ @MissWhiteCV@MissMcGroryCV.
I think this type of thing will seem very normal by this time next year.
Yes, Peak Woke will never happen, it will just continue and worsen
You have to wonder how mad it might get
2020 went beyond what happened in 1968. The revolution will keep going until it reaches some sort of limit: either it collapses due to the absurdity of its own contradictions, or it gets attacked from outside. All you can really do is try and stay out of its way.
The absent @SeanT, erstwhile citizen of this same manor, posits in the Spectator that Woke is actually a proper new religion, and will thus endure
Let us hope that, as always, he is entirely wrong and befuddled by The Drink
For woke to be a new religion (rather than a variant of christianity, as suggested by some) it needs to travel. And from what I can see, it isn't doing that - quite the reverse.
It is certainly spreading in the English speaking world, and now - bizarrely - into India
Miss Moorehead @MissMooreheadCV · Nov 1 P3B have been preparing for Thursday, when P6 are encouraging everybody to wear a skirt to raise awareness of #LaRopaNoTieneGenero, or as our lovely posters say ‘clothing has no gender’ @MissWhiteCV@MissMcGroryCV.
I think this type of thing will seem very normal by this time next year.
Yes, Peak Woke will never happen, it will just continue and worsen
You have to wonder how mad it might get
2020 went beyond what happened in 1968. The revolution will keep going until it reaches some sort of limit: either it collapses due to the absurdity of its own contradictions, or it gets attacked from outside. All you can really do is try and stay out of its way.
The absent @SeanT, erstwhile citizen of this same manor, posits in the Spectator that Woke is actually a proper new religion, and will thus endure
Let us hope that, as always, he is entirely wrong and befuddled by The Drink
For woke to be a new religion (rather than a variant of christianity, as suggested by some) it needs to travel. And from what I can see, it isn't doing that - quite the reverse.
It is certainly spreading in the English speaking world, and now - bizarrely - into India
As far as I can see it is an anglo saxon thing, largely driven by post colonial guilt.
It has origins going way back to obscure, extreme American race and gender studies of the 1960s, with half a nod to Cultural Marxism. From there the fungus slowly infested sociology, then anthropology, geography, and in the last decade pretty much all of academe
And in the last few years, it has exploded everywhere. Shedding spores
It is dangerous because it is so similar to a religion. It replaces religion, by offering the same absolute moral certainties, in a bewildering world. There is no arguing with Woke. You either submit and agree, as in Islam, or you are haram. A racist or a transphobe or whatever. That's it
Yet who are the true believers of the woke religion? Mainly students and some liberal academics and a few in the public sector.
It is hardly a religious force growing on the scale of evangelical Christianity or Islam globally yet.
Sometimes he is actually right about things @DPJHodges I don’t understand the politics in this Owen Patterson vote. What’s the upside for Boris and the government. What does he think he gets out of it. Complete gift for Labour.
There’s not much us mere voters can do apart from email our MPs and express our view of the latest antics (as well as vote against them at the next election)
Unfortunately, my MP is Michael Gove,
At least you know from past experience he'd undermine Boris if the opportunity arose for him to benefit. Sadly that is improbable.
The commissioner for standards will not be resigning and will serve her full term to December 22
Guess if everyone else is in it for the ££££ why should we expect her to lose six weeks pay because of the lack of Tory shame?
December 2022 though
Sorry misinterpreted as 22nd December. I think my cynical point still stands. If the government and the PM are determined to allow corruption at the heart of public life, we cannot really expect mid level officials to make a pointless and losing stand against them. If they do then great, but if they don't I have sympathy with her position to carry on.
The blame lies with those who enabled a known and shameless liar (well beyond the normal "lies" of politics) to become PM.
The electorate then
Not really, they were given a choice of him or Corbyn. Tory MPs putting him through to the membership ballot when in the previous leadership election over 100 joined a anyone but Boris whatsapp group. They knew he was rotten.
Ultimately it is the electorate who put parties into power and it is upto losing parties to win back the votes
You can ask why labour and the lib dems are failing to cut through in these crazy times
Absolutely valid point. Opposition parties just don't benefit from the way they used to. Question though is whether the government should be exploiting this to drive through good things - why governments are supposed to be elected - or continue to bin the rules and roll around in the mud of open corruption.
No other Tory PM would be doing this. Because its wrong.
I could see Corbyn as PM doing the same process to protect his comrades. And the Tories who are meh about this, or even defending it today would be absolutely frothing about it.
It's the classic 'turn the protagonists around' test. It's obvious how it would be seen in that case.
To be fair I think a small majority of Tory posters today have unequivocally criticised the decision, still disappointing how many excuses are made by others.
I think the vast majority of Tory posters [including Tory voters at last election who have since left the party] have opposed the amendment today.
I agree with Hunt etc on this, that the right to natural justice and an appeal should happen here, but it doesn't seem many others do.
Sometimes he is actually right about things @DPJHodges I don’t understand the politics in this Owen Patterson vote. What’s the upside for Boris and the government. What does he think he gets out of it. Complete gift for Labour.
There’s not much us mere voters can do apart from email our MPs and express our view of the latest antics (as well as vote against them at the next election)
Unfortunately, my MP is Michael Gove,
At least you know from past experience he'd undermine Boris if the opportunity arose for him to benefit. Sadly that is improbable.
The commissioner for standards will not be resigning and will serve her full term to December 22
Guess if everyone else is in it for the ££££ why should we expect her to lose six weeks pay because of the lack of Tory shame?
December 2022 though
Sorry misinterpreted as 22nd December. I think my cynical point still stands. If the government and the PM are determined to allow corruption at the heart of public life, we cannot really expect mid level officials to make a pointless and losing stand against them. If they do then great, but if they don't I have sympathy with her position to carry on.
The blame lies with those who enabled a known and shameless liar (well beyond the normal "lies" of politics) to become PM.
The electorate then
Not really, they were given a choice of him or Corbyn. Tory MPs putting him through to the membership ballot when in the previous leadership election over 100 joined a anyone but Boris whatsapp group. They knew he was rotten.
Ultimately it is the electorate who put parties into power and it is upto losing parties to win back the votes
You can ask why labour and the lib dems are failing to cut through in these crazy times
Absolutely valid point. Opposition parties just don't benefit from the way they used to. Question though is whether the government should be exploiting this to drive through good things - why governments are supposed to be elected - or continue to bin the rules and roll around in the mud of open corruption.
No other Tory PM would be doing this. Because its wrong.
I could see Corbyn as PM doing the same process to protect his comrades. And the Tories who are meh about this, or even defending it today would be absolutely frothing about it.
It's the classic 'turn the protagonists around' test. It's obvious how it would be seen in that case.
To be fair I think a small majority of Tory posters today have unequivocally criticised the decision, still disappointing how many excuses are made by others.
Alistair Meaks answered that earlier on twitter - I'll post it again for convenience.
It’s entirely rational. The new system means in practice MPs will need govt support to escape punishment, increasing executive control. MPs have been forced to commit themselves to this. And scrutiny of the executive is further weakened. A good day’s work for the PM.
Labour's @AngelaRayner confirms party won't take part in new standards system: "Labour will not be taking any part in this sham process or any corrupt committee."
Lots of journos saying this is a problem, but this is exactly the result they wanted. Judge and jury on themselves.
Then why didn't Lab et al vote against it?
Have missed the details if this has been addressed.
In the main they did- certainly they didn't back the Leadsom plan.
What we don't know is the degree to which the abstentions were real (don't know/CBA) as opposed to pairing pseudo-abstentions. Or MPs who didn't expect a big close vote today.
But I'd a government wants to play hardball (and a three line whip on this is hardball) and starts with an 80 majority, there's not a lot an opposition can do.
Moral: don't lose elections by a big margin.
Yes true but turn up to vote ffs. 80 is a big enough majority, meanwhile Tory grandees were on the airwaves saying they'd vote against.
If they weren't paired (see my comments earlier about @NickPalmer's recent comment on it) then they really have themselves (and the other non-Cons) to blame.
I mean it is the Houses of Parliament. Where votes are cast and policies therefore enacted or not.
I saw a post earlier saying that if all the opposition parties had voted against then it may have been defeated. I would boot pairing into the deep blue yonder, frankly. Plus any Lab MP who wasn't paired needs to be binned.
Once again, even Jeremy Corbyn understood what an Opposition was for.
got back an read the posts above.
60 Tory MPs with permission not to vote. 28 Labour MPs is way less than 60 - so it's fair to assume every Labour MP who didn't vote is paired with a Tory MP.
The add up for all the opposition MPs who didn't vote being paired. Said to be ~50 Tory MPs who rebelled, including 13 who voted against. That reduces the nominal government majority by ~63, which with an initial government majority of ~80 fits very well with the majority on the vote of 18.
If all the Tory abstentions had voted against then the government would have lost by ~20. That's the disappointment.
Unlike so many other unpopular moves, this Patterson vote is one that the government cannot u-turn on. They own it completely and irrevocably. There is no wriggle room whatsoever. Good.
At least in the days of duck houses, moat cleaning and stable heating it was just greed. This is far worse. Any member who voted for this amendment voted to permit corruption. They are now accessories in common enterprise to loot the public purse for themselves and their mates.
I would be interested if anyone has a list of abstentions/rebels.
Boris Johnson is remaking British politics in his own image - corrupt, dishonest and utterly self-serving. A shameful day for our democracy.
Yep, we are getting exactly what was going to happen once the Tories decided to make a grifting liar their leader.
it is why I voted for Jeremy Hunt
Would that be the same Jeremy Hunt that signed the amendment? 🤔
Everything is relative. Regrettable if he did. Not sure how often he has voted against a three line whip ( I am sure someone with more time than me will tell me). Either way, it is people who supported Boris Johnson, like yourself, that have taken the Tory Party into this sewer.
I respect Jeremy Hunt but had he been Tory leader I doubt he would have got a majority against Corbyn, more a rehash of May's 2017 result. Farage would still have stood BXP candidates in Tory seats so the Tories would have lost more seats to the LDs and I doubt he would have won as many seats from Labour in the Redwall as Boris did, being a Remainer unlike Leaver Boris
As I have said many times, winning an election is very important, but it is what you do when you have won it that counts. I think Mrs T said it somewhat more eloquently but I cant recall the quote.
Boris Johnson is continually forgiven by folk such as yourself because he "won". The reality is the real Tory party lost. They replaced centuries of belief in good governance and statesmanship with ego driven populism and clownish tomfoolery. Britain is a laughing stock. When people talk about patriotism, think of an image of Boris Johnson and ask yourself whether any world leader takes him seriously.
The Conservative members have been leaving in droves for some time now, not least because the paid part of the party has overuled the volunteers at every turn. Now, the Tory organisation is dominated by a clique of professional politicians and the volunteer members, who used to be the party, eiher now simply ignored or silenced or quite often they are actively derided. The members have no power or control.
Now Johnson is moving onto the Conservative voters: he gaslights them at every turn, with insane, economically illiterate policies, Russian donors and a side order of bullshit. He assumes that they will continue to support him.
For the time being he has been right.
He assumes that the electoral system will keep him in power for as long as he wants the job. So far, he is right. However, if the wind were to change then we would not necessarily be looking at the pendulum swinging and Labour returning in a couple of elections time. It is quite possible that the Conservative voter bloc swings strongly away, as they did in Chesham and Amersham. Right now, no one thinks that Labour or, still less the Liberal Democrats, can put up a fight that will knock the Tories out next time. However, Johnson´s confidence in the voters may be rather misplaced. A sustained swing like the "Cleggasm" only this time the voters follow it up, is not impossible, and if a big enough bloc of hitherto Tory voters defects, then the Tories could face implosion.
The historical precedent (the Liberal Party collapse in the 1920s) still suggests a time line of several elections, but if Johnson continues to play with fire, then the timeline becomes a lot more uncertain.
The Conservative Party, the most successful political party in history, that we knew until 2014 is dead. Tbe zombie Tories may not survive a decade.
This sort of prediction turns me on, it really does. Cold shower time.
A lot of Tories did not want to be associated with this vote
And yet because of their cowardice they all are. Absolutely disgraceful from the government and the MPs. The opposition completely caught napping as well given the level of Tory abstentions.
To be fair given his wife took suicide over this issue I think he has already suffered enough. I expect a few opposition MPs felt the same as clearly did most Tory MPs.
Suspending him for a month would really not have done much and just set back his constituency work anyway, even if I would probably not have voted for the Leadsom amendment myself.
If his electors are still annoyed with him then let them vote him out at the next general election
What an utterly specious argument, even by your own dismal standards. By you logic, MPs needn't have a disciplinary process at all - leave it all to the election. Those in safe seats (like Patterson) would be practically immune under that process - very little chance his appalling, egregious breach of paid lobbying rules would trump the likely desire of his constituents for a Tory Government in 2023/24.
The "already suffered enough" line is similarly nonsensical. Patterson has shamelessly used the tragic death of his wife to deflect from his corrupt actions before that happened. He claims the pressure of the disciplinary process contributed to her death. Nobody here can know if that is true or not. But we do know WHY there was a disciplinary process... it's because Mr Patterson repeatedly, blatantly abused his position and privileges to feather his nest. Try a similar line at sentencing in the Crown Court and see how far it gets you.
That is largely my view actually.
MPs employers are their constituents and their local party, not Parliament. Parliament is there to serve MPs and Lords not the other way round.
If their local party or their constituents dislike what they are doing they can deselect them or vote them out at election time.
As I said he is not facing any criminal charges so Crown Court sentencing is not relevant
It's entirely relevant. Fairness to the person who has been found guilty of misconduct is MORE important the more serious the repercussions, such as criminal penalties in a Crown Court trial, not LESS important.
So if a judge would give short shrift to an argument that you should be treated leniently because of the impact on others in your life of the trial (which you as the guilty party had done more than anyone to cause) then it's DOUBLY the case in the current situation.
That you feel there shouldn't be a disciplinary process at all speaks volumes of you personally, and there is no need to respond further.
Given there was no criminal activity in this case clearly the penalties of a Crown Court trial are not relevant. Had Patterson committed a criminal offence and been found guilty he would have faced criminal sanction, even jail, regardless of his wife's suicide. However he faced no criminal sanction so his fellow MPs could decide whether they wanted to impose any sanctions on him or not over his lobbying work given the context.
I stand by my view MPs should be judged solely at election time or by their local parties as they always used to be. They are elected for 5 year terms and unless they get a substantial prison sentence should be allowed to complete that term and judged on how they performed at it at the next election
You have utterly missed my point.
Let me take you through it slowly.
The more serious the sanctions on the table, the more important it is to guarantee fair treatment to the accused. That is why the highest level of protection applies in the Crown Court, because serious criminal sanctions are on the table.
Criminal sanctions are not on the table in an MP's disciplinary case. So the protections afforded to the accused can hardly be expected to be greater.
So, if the impact of the process on the health of family members of the accused isn't relevant in the Crown Court (particularly, but not only, because that impact is the fault of the accused first and foremost) then it is ludicrous to suggest it's a mitigation for the MP. That would mean giving greater protections in a case where the consequences for the accused are less, which is madness.
It is important to offer a fair trial yes, especially in criminal trials.
In terms of sanction however for the guilty while in a criminal matter the suicide of a family member may not be taken into account, in a non criminal matter like this where the most likely sanction was simply a trivial month's suspension then if MPs wanted to drop that punishment because of the context that is their right to do so.
As I have said I remain of the view in any case MPs should solely be judged by the constituents and local parties anyway not Parliament on how they have performed in their job.
His wife's suicide was very sad, but he was found to have breached the ethics and a 30 day suspension is not trivial as it can trigger a recall petition which is exactly the point you make in your last paragraph
The actions by Boris and others today has been inexcusable
Comments
How consistent has your view been? Oh..hang on...
98 Tory MPs also abstained
I suspect all 28 Labour MPs who abstained were paired 28 Tory MPs.
So if a judge would give short shrift to an argument that you should be treated leniently because of the impact on others in your life of the trial (which you as the guilty party had done more than anyone to cause) then it's DOUBLY the case in the current situation.
That you feel there shouldn't be a disciplinary process at all speaks volumes of you personally, and there is no need to respond further.
Now Johnson is moving onto the Conservative voters: he gaslights them at every turn, with insane, economically illiterate policies, Russian donors and a side order of bullshit. He assumes that they will continue to support him.
For the time being he has been right.
He assumes that the electoral system will keep him in power for as long as he wants the job. So far, he is right. However, if the wind were to change then we would not necessarily be looking at the pendulum swinging and Labour returning in a couple of elections time. It is quite possible that the Conservative voter bloc swings strongly away, as they did in Chesham and Amersham. Right now, no one thinks that Labour or, still less the Liberal Democrats, can put up a fight that will knock the Tories out next time. However, Johnson´s confidence in the voters may be rather misplaced. A sustained swing like the "Cleggasm" only this time the voters follow it up, is not impossible, and if a big enough bloc of hitherto Tory voters defects, then the Tories could face implosion.
The historical precedent (the Liberal Party collapse in the 1920s) still suggests a time line of several elections, but if Johnson continues to play with fire, then the timeline becomes a lot more uncertain.
The Conservative Party, the most successful political party in history, that we knew until 2014 is dead. Tbe zombie Tories may not survive a decade.
What we don't know is the degree to which the abstentions were real (don't know/CBA) as opposed to pairing pseudo-abstentions. Or MPs who didn't expect a big close vote today.
But I'd a government wants to play hardball (and a three line whip on this is hardball) and starts with an 80 majority, there's not a lot an opposition can do.
Moral: don't lose elections by a big margin.
Jeremy Corbyn also hasn't changed any of his thoughts in the past four decades either. You two belong together.
If they weren't paired (see my comments earlier about @NickPalmer's recent comment on it) then they really have themselves (and the other non-Cons) to blame.
I stand by my view MPs should be judged solely at election time or by their local parties as they always used to be. They are elected for 5 year terms and unless they get a substantial prison sentence should be allowed to complete that term and judged on how they performed at it at the next election
Cake, no cherries, Prime Minister.
They said: "I know the usual suspects - the messages I'm getting aren't from them."
https://twitter.com/breeallegretti/status/1455915837605416960
https://www.newindianexpress.com/opinions/2021/oct/26/wokeness-and-the-battered-brands-of-india-2375669.html
As I think I posted the other day, here is an unintended consequence of tuition fees. The student is the customer and their demands are paramount.
That's 13 months during which she can put her feet up.
111 Tory MPs didn’t vote for Leadsom amendment (13 voted against, 98 abstained)
Tory whips understood to be saying 60MPs had permission not to vote (paired or slipped)
Which still means 50ish Tory MPs defied whips by either voting against or not backing amendment
https://twitter.com/benrileysmith/status/1455945268495593480
https://twitter.com/waltshaub/status/1455716232007757825
The blame lies with those who enabled a known and shameless liar (well beyond the normal "lies" of politics) to become PM.
Folk get a taste for it.
I saw a post earlier saying that if all the opposition parties had voted against then it may have been defeated. I would boot pairing into the deep blue yonder, frankly. Plus any Lab MP who wasn't paired needs to be binned.
Once again, even Jeremy Corbyn understood what an Opposition was for.
David Lloyd Clubs latest to rule out any further dealings with the club in support of @AzeemRafiq30 https://twitter.com/SarahDawkins23/status/1455946872955318272/photo/1
https://twitter.com/TPostMillennial/status/1455750868096147456
Her gender has nothing to do with why she was a crap PM. Thatcher was a great PM and my preferred successor to Boris other than my own tip Sunak would be Truss.
92% of the country voted against May in her final election. That's not misogyny it's her record as our worst and least suitable PM in centuries.
You can ask why labour and the lib dems are failing to cut through in these crazy times
https://twitter.com/fatshez/status/1455945699972026370?s=20
Doesn't remotely excuse today's events, but might that explain the high level of SNP abstentions?
Being an mp is a privilege. He clearly abused that.
This is one of the biggest issues both the Democrats (and Labour) have. Their preferred attacks points just don't work for voters who are not left wing.
60 Tory MPs with permission not to vote. 28 Labour MPs is way less than 60 - so it's fair to assume every Labour MP who didn't vote is paired with a Tory MP.
And in the last few years, it has exploded everywhere. Shedding spores
It is dangerous because it is so similar to a religion. It replaces religion, by offering the same absolute moral certainties, in a bewildering world. There is no arguing with Woke. You either submit and agree, as in Islam, or you are haram. A racist or a transphobe or whatever. That's it
https://twitter.com/thhamilton/status/1455933341681733638?t=rwLF420XXk3Mubfcs-RnNQ&s=19
I still haven't learnt to do strikethroughs
Do you think anyone in CCHQ is spending more than 0.4 seconds worrying about this non-defeat?
No other Tory PM would be doing this. Because its wrong.
Let me take you through it slowly.
The more serious the sanctions on the table, the more important it is to guarantee fair treatment to the accused.
That is why the highest level of protection applies in the Crown Court, because serious criminal sanctions are on the table.
Criminal sanctions are not on the table in an MP's disciplinary case. So the protections afforded to the accused can hardly be expected to be greater.
So, if the impact of the process on the health of family members of the accused isn't relevant in the Crown Court (particularly, but not only, because that impact is the fault of the accused first and foremost) then it is ludicrous to suggest it's a mitigation for the MP. That would mean giving greater protections in a case where the consequences for the accused are less, which is madness.
Plus the rest as per @Philip_Thompson's post?
Bollocks to pairing whatever, you want to bring the government down if you are the opposition. Make them come in from wherever.
As I said the airwaves were full of Cons MPs saying they would vote against.
But that's fine. Lab is playing the long game. They will challenge this one and form their own government in the long run.
And the choice was Bozo last time.
Suck it up lefties
Unfortunately, my MP is Michael Gove,
@DPJHodges I don’t understand the politics in this Owen Patterson vote. What’s the upside for Boris and the government. What does he think he gets out of it. Complete gift for Labour. At least you know from past experience he'd undermine Boris if the opportunity arose for him to benefit. Sadly that is improbable. It's the classic 'turn the protagonists around' test. It's obvious how it would be seen in that case.
In terms of sanction however for the guilty while in a serious criminal matter the suicide of a family member may not be taken into account, in a non criminal matter like this where the most likely sanction was simply a trivial month's suspension then if MPs wanted to drop that punishment because of the context that is their right to do so.
As I have said I remain of the view in any case MPs should solely be judged by their constituents and local parties anyway not Parliament on how they have performed in their job.
I would be interested if anyone has a list of abstentions/rebels.
It is hardly a religious force growing on the scale of evangelical Christianity or Islam globally yet.
I agree with Hunt etc on this, that the right to natural justice and an appeal should happen here, but it doesn't seem many others do.
It’s entirely rational. The new system means in practice MPs will need govt support to escape punishment, increasing executive control. MPs have been forced to commit themselves to this. And scrutiny of the executive is further weakened. A good day’s work for the PM.
If all the Tory abstentions had voted against then the government would have lost by ~20. That's the disappointment.
The actions by Boris and others today has been inexcusable