Surely the big story of the day is Virginia, not Owen Patterson
Proximately it strongly suggests swinging Republican gains in 2022, rendering Biden a lame duck who will do very little, making it easier for the GOP to retake the White House in 2024
Ultimately, it is much bigger than that. It is the first time a shrewd right winger has cleverly weaponised Wokeness as a stick to thwack the Left, and boy, it works. Voters loathe this race and gender bullshit
I see almost no reason why the Republicans can’t repeat this across America, and the Counter-Reformation could spread to Canada, Oz, and the UK.
I say ‘almost’ because Trump, of course. He is the one confounding factor. Republicans need him to disappear, even as they maintain their grip on his base. If they can do that, they could dominate elections for a decade, because the American Left is not getting any less insane, any time soon
Virginia also neatly answers that persistent question. “What is Wokeness?”. Wokeness is what lost the Virginia election for the Left
Pip's thread header at the weekend said that even a "narrow" Dem win in Virginia would indicate the Republicans are on course to take the House and the Senate in the mid-terms, so I take it a GOP win in Virginia is indicating a GOP landslide next year?
I wonder why someone like Hunt is willing to put his name to such an amendment. If I had to guess, I reckon it's because he and others think that Paterson deserves a lot more credit for raising the issue to begin with.
From what I can gather there is a feeling the the rules have been interpreted so strictly as to verge on the incorrect and unfair. Plus the kangaroo-court aspect that Paterson is obviously concerned about. I don't think he expected the report to conclude as it did because he thought his robust defence would put an end to the matter.
I don't what to think about all this , but in Paterson's own words:
“My arguments and witnesses are not properly represented in the report. My lawyers are astounded by the procedure and said if Parliamentary privilege were surrendered and we had open access to a judge in court, the whole process would be chucked out.”
Yet the accusation seems to be very simple.
Letters were written by him as an MP that didn't mention the paid relationship between him and the companies he was written on behalf of. That lack of detail means the letters would be considered in a different light to how they would otherwise have been treated.
I don't see how the excuses that have appeared in the press changes or excuses the actual accusation..
I don't know either but if, for example, he had made a declaration of his paid interest to a particular body or organisation at an earlier point it might be unreasonable to require him to do it again in every piece of correspondence.
Agree with the lead. The two Tories trying to defend this on the radio this morning came across badly. They were trying to shield him by playing his wife's suicide for all that it was worth; sympathy for personal tragedy isn't any excuse for what they are trying to do.
Personal tragedy doesn't excuse continual abuse of position - which is what this looks like.
If it had been a one off you could understand it but the biggest issue is that it was done multiple times.
On this I completely agree with you.
His wife's suicide is sad, but it shouldn't affect the case.
The concerns about flaws are much more serious and they should be looked into - and it seems the system as designed permits the Commons to reject the report if it chooses to do so (like the Lib Dems did with boundary reforms) so the Commons choosing to send it to appeal to determine whether they wish to accept or reject it falls under its existing rights surely?
If the Commons has to vote to accept or reject the report, and there are allegations of flaws in the report, then better surely to have those alleged flaws investigated first rather than just voting on party lines - and if the MPs were supposed to use their own judgement on this matter they shouldn't have been a part of the process, but they are.
If the Commons is acting as the appeals step then all the procedural arguments about due process and a lack of an appeal are bunkum. His appeal to his fellow MPs should be on the merits of the case.
It also makes it outrageous that the vote is being whipped.
But I've been dragged into arguing about the merits of the case rather than the politics. Politicizing the issue aggressively is the way to get partisans on your side to defend the indefensible. That's what the Tories have succeeded in doing, and it's why the damage from this will be slight to non-existent.
Yep agree about the whipping. Completely out of order. But to be honest I think that about all whipped votes. I would ban the whole practice. Out of interest are Labour whipping on this? That would, to my kind, be equally wrong. It should be down to the conscience of the individual MP for or against.
Agree with the lead. The two Tories trying to defend this on the radio this morning came across badly. They were trying to shield him by playing his wife's suicide for all that it was worth; sympathy for personal tragedy isn't any excuse for what they are trying to do.
Personal tragedy doesn't excuse continual abuse of position - which is what this looks like.
If it had been a one off you could understand it but the biggest issue is that it was done multiple times.
On this I completely agree with you.
His wife's suicide is sad, but it shouldn't affect the case.
The concerns about flaws are much more serious and they should be looked into - and it seems the system as designed permits the Commons to reject the report if it chooses to do so (like the Lib Dems did with boundary reforms) so the Commons choosing to send it to appeal to determine whether they wish to accept or reject it falls under its existing rights surely?
If the Commons has to vote to accept or reject the report, and there are allegations of flaws in the report, then better surely to have those alleged flaws investigated first rather than just voting on party lines - and if the MPs were supposed to use their own judgement on this matter they shouldn't have been a part of the process, but they are.
If the Commons is acting as the appeals step then all the procedural arguments about due process and a lack of an appeal are bunkum. His appeal to his fellow MPs should be on the merits of the case.
It also makes it outrageous that the vote is being whipped.
But I've been dragged into arguing about the merits of the case rather than the politics. Politicizing the issue aggressively is the way to get partisans on your side to defend the indefensible. That's what the Tories have succeeded in doing, and it's why the damage from this will be slight to non-existent.
They're only bunkum if we don't listen to those like you who are demanding the Common rubber stamp this report without looking into it, thus denying any opportunity to appeal.
The amendment Hunt signed has set out sensible steps to look into an appeal. That is the Commons doing its job, its not aggressive politicisation.
Hunt is being sensible, and those who normally agree with Hunt here who are now going off the deep end trying to politicise this to score points are not.
I did not say that the Commons should rubber stamp the report. I haven't read it, so I haven't made a judgement on its contents.
What I've said is that MPs should be free to judge the merits of the case without being whipped to vote one way or the other. I'm hoping they will have read the report and will have been able to form their own view.
That's fair I agree but it should go on all sides equally. The Tories whipping to let off one of their own is wrong, and Labour whipping to get a Tory MP stitched up would be equally unacceptable.
It should be a conscience vote for all concerned. And if as Sam Coates has written today even Labour MPs are troubled by this, then they should vote for the amendment too.
Surely the big story of the day is Virginia, not Owen Patterson
Proximately it strongly suggests swinging Republican gains in 2022, rendering Biden a lame duck who will do very little, making it easier for the GOP to retake the White House in 2024
Ultimately, it is much bigger than that. It is the first time a shrewd right winger has cleverly weaponised Wokeness as a stick to thwack the Left, and boy, it works. Voters loathe this race and gender bullshit
I see almost no reason why the Republicans can’t repeat this across America, and the Counter-Reformation could spread to Canada, Oz, and the UK.
I say ‘almost’ because Trump, of course. He is the one confounding factor. Republicans need him to disappear, even as they maintain their grip on his base. If they can do that, they could dominate elections for a decade, because the American Left is not getting any less insane, any time soon
Virginia also neatly answers that persistent question. “What is Wokeness?”. Wokeness is what lost the Virginia election for the Left
Except that "wokeness" as is happening in America like many such culture wars just doesn't apply in the UK.
Last year some responded to the Black Lives Matter movement by saying "OK fair enough to protest American police violence but we don't have that issue in this country" which is right. We equally don't have this "wokeness" of which you are completely dogmatically obsessed about either. It swings both ways.
We have enough issues of our own to worry about, without transplanting American culture wars into the UK.
Surely the big story of the day is Virginia, not Owen Patterson
Proximately it strongly suggests swinging Republican gains in 2022, rendering Biden a lame duck who will do very little, making it easier for the GOP to retake the White House in 2024
Ultimately, it is much bigger than that. It is the first time a shrewd right winger has cleverly weaponised Wokeness as a stick to thwack the Left, and boy, it works. Voters loathe this race and gender bullshit
I see almost no reason why the Republicans can’t repeat this across America, and the Counter-Reformation could spread to Canada, Oz, and the UK.
I say ‘almost’ because Trump, of course. He is the one confounding factor. Republicans need him to disappear, even as they maintain their grip on his base. If they can do that, they could dominate elections for a decade, because the American Left is not getting any less insane, any time soon
Virginia also neatly answers that persistent question. “What is Wokeness?”. Wokeness is what lost the Virginia election for the Left
Like the guy who says the most important issue in the election was critical race theory, even though he freely admitted he had no idea what critical race theory was, apart from he was certain he did not like it and it was being foisted on him. It is all bonkers but you are probably right that it can win elections, especially in countries with an ageing population.
I have heard of precisely zero people IRL agitating for another lockdown. Yes, I know, dovish London etc etc etc – I realise that other areas are different. But is there anywhere in the UK where people are clinging to their homes, praying that the government soon forces everyone to stay inside? Really? I just can't believe that.I hew heard of precisely zero people ITL agitating for another lockdown. Yes, I know, dovish London etc etc etc – I realise that other areas are different. But is there anywhere in the UK where people are clinging to their homes, praying that the government soon forces everyone to stay inside? Really? I just can't believe that.
My wife would be relieved if there were more restrictions to reduce the spread. She was incredulous when the Irish government recently reopened nightclubs there.
It's understandable that people will still be afraid, which is why we need leaders to lead and restore confidence. Johnson has no credibility with her to do this, and the political leaders that she might listen to are emphasising the residual peril.
I am hoping to take her to Bath in December to visit my daughter, and to do a couple of things here in November as a warm-up, to ease her back into a realisation that things are better now with the evidence of experience.
OGH is absolutely right that the Tories are stupid to get involved in this and be seen to be trying to change the process to avoid one of their own off the hook. It should be down to the individual MP, not the party and especially not the Government, to mount any challenge or appeal if they feel they have been wronged by the system.
But...
What is the process for an MP to appeal a decision if they feel it is wrong and the Commissioner has been either negligent or malicious? I assume there must be some process whereby a decision can be challenged? I just don't know what that system is. The idea that an MP can be ruined at the whim of an individual seems as wrong to me as it would be if it were anyone outside Parliament. There at least there is an accepted appeals process.
Paterson was investigated by the Parliamentary Commissioner for Standards. Her report was upheld by a jury of his peers, including four Tory MPs. If you read the report, he was challenging the findings throughout, and the investigation process gave him many opportunities, which he took, to challenge the findings. So in a sense an appeals process is built in.
Now, if MPs think that the whole process is unsatisfactory, then of course they can change it, just as they installed the current one. But to seek to change it following a judgment that they don't like is simply appalling. Would they be doing this if it was an opposition MP? Of course not. If they let the Paterson verdict stand and then brought forward changes, then fair enough.
There is the question as to who an appeal could go to, if the original decision was by the Parliamentary Standards cross party Committee.
Who would be qualified to hear such an appeal? Obviously the government itself should not be that body.
I have heard of precisely zero people IRL agitating for another lockdown. Yes, I know, dovish London etc etc etc – I realise that other areas are different. But is there anywhere in the UK where people are clinging to their homes, praying that the government soon forces everyone to stay inside? Really? I just can't believe that.I hew heard of precisely zero people ITL agitating for another lockdown. Yes, I know, dovish London etc etc etc – I realise that other areas are different. But is there anywhere in the UK where people are clinging to their homes, praying that the government soon forces everyone to stay inside? Really? I just can't believe that.
Agree, I don't think people are agitating for a lockdown. And we shouldn't need one, unless we get some new and nasty variant.
But, I do know people (older/more vulnerable on average) who are reducing social contact and avoiding events where they feel unsafe. That is likely to continue whilst cases are high I would guess.
The trouble is case numbers now may not be that much higher than the endemic equilibrium. In which case the fear continues, in theory indefinitely.
Surely the big story of the day is Virginia, not Owen Patterson
Proximately it strongly suggests swinging Republican gains in 2022, rendering Biden a lame duck who will do very little, making it easier for the GOP to retake the White House in 2024
Ultimately, it is much bigger than that. It is the first time a shrewd right winger has cleverly weaponised Wokeness as a stick to thwack the Left, and boy, it works. Voters loathe this race and gender bullshit
I see almost no reason why the Republicans can’t repeat this across America, and the Counter-Reformation could spread to Canada, Oz, and the UK.
I say ‘almost’ because Trump, of course. He is the one confounding factor. Republicans need him to disappear, even as they maintain their grip on his base. If they can do that, they could dominate elections for a decade, because the American Left is not getting any less insane, any time soon
Virginia also neatly answers that persistent question. “What is Wokeness?”. Wokeness is what lost the Virginia election for the Left
Anyone who hs ever canvassed a street, and met actual voters in person, knows full well that the majority of people have little time for wokeness. They certainly won't vote for it and, if wilfully confronted with it, can certainly be provoked into voting for the alternative.
In the US, the horror is that this might provide a route back for Trump and I have an awful feeling that we may end up watching the proverbial slow-motion car-crash that would be his re-election. Just imagine. Can the Republicans make a grotesque narcissist like that disappear if he doesn't want to? Really?
The message of this is it is open season to fill your boots for 7 yeaes minimum.. Any Tory MP who doesn't enrich themselves, their family and friends will look back on this time with wistful regret at a missed opportunity.
Leaves on the line. Not a funny excuse as the media have portrayed it.
Yep, I just read the report. Just imagine being the driver
Driver applies brakes well before the signal Driver applies emergency brakes before the signal Emergency systems apply their additional emergency brakes as it passes the signal
And the train just keeps on going..
On the upside, as everything is recorded at least the driver is shown to not be at fault.
Leaves on the line. Not a funny excuse as the media have portrayed it.
Train drivers on the rail forum saying they don't actually know when they sign on to a train whether it has sand in it's hoppers, or not. That isn't a very good state of affairs.
I have heard of precisely zero people IRL agitating for another lockdown. Yes, I know, dovish London etc etc etc – I realise that other areas are different. But is there anywhere in the UK where people are clinging to their homes, praying that the government soon forces everyone to stay inside? Really? I just can't believe that.I hew heard of precisely zero people ITL agitating for another lockdown. Yes, I know, dovish London etc etc etc – I realise that other areas are different. But is there anywhere in the UK where people are clinging to their homes, praying that the government soon forces everyone to stay inside? Really? I just can't believe that.
I know of a few people who think masks should still be compulsory. Some more who think we'll end up with another lockdown. But no one calling for more restrictions at present, other than masks. Yorkshire and I work with public health researchers/epidemiologists/clinicians who have generally been more hawkish than others on NPIs, particularly last autumn.
Surely the big story of the day is Virginia, not Owen Patterson
Proximately it strongly suggests swinging Republican gains in 2022, rendering Biden a lame duck who will do very little, making it easier for the GOP to retake the White House in 2024
Ultimately, it is much bigger than that. It is the first time a shrewd right winger has cleverly weaponised Wokeness as a stick to thwack the Left, and boy, it works. Voters loathe this race and gender bullshit
I see almost no reason why the Republicans can’t repeat this across America, and the Counter-Reformation could spread to Canada, Oz, and the UK.
I say ‘almost’ because Trump, of course. He is the one confounding factor. Republicans need him to disappear, even as they maintain their grip on his base. If they can do that, they could dominate elections for a decade, because the American Left is not getting any less insane, any time soon
Virginia also neatly answers that persistent question. “What is Wokeness?”. Wokeness is what lost the Virginia election for the Left
Certainly the GOP should retake the House next year on this swing at least.
However then they run into the problem of Trump being favoured nominee of their base again in 2024, in which case Biden won in 2020 as an inoffensive non wokeist to keep out Trump and could do so again.
On your broader point Zemmour in France is also rising in the polls next year on a relentlessly anti woke agenda (although he still narrowly trails Macron) and Boris and Morrison in the UK and Australia are both capable of playing the culture wars card when they need to.
Trudeau was re elected in September in Canada as a wokeist but failed to win a majority and again lost the popular vote to the Conservatives.
Electorally, while most people in the west want race and gender equality they do not want their history and culture trashed either, that is the key message of the GOP win in Virginia.
Wokeism may win in ultra liberal California (hence Meghan lives there) it doesn't much beyond that and university towns and the inner cities
Surely the big story of the day is Virginia, not Owen Patterson
Proximately it strongly suggests swinging Republican gains in 2022, rendering Biden a lame duck who will do very little, making it easier for the GOP to retake the White House in 2024
Ultimately, it is much bigger than that. It is the first time a shrewd right winger has cleverly weaponised Wokeness as a stick to thwack the Left, and boy, it works. Voters loathe this race and gender bullshit
I see almost no reason why the Republicans can’t repeat this across America, and the Counter-Reformation could spread to Canada, Oz, and the UK.
I say ‘almost’ because Trump, of course. He is the one confounding factor. Republicans need him to disappear, even as they maintain their grip on his base. If they can do that, they could dominate elections for a decade, because the American Left is not getting any less insane, any time soon
Virginia also neatly answers that persistent question. “What is Wokeness?”. Wokeness is what lost the Virginia election for the Left
Except that "wokeness" as is happening in America like many such culture wars just doesn't apply in the UK.
Last year some responded to the Black Lives Matter movement by saying "OK fair enough to protest American police violence but we don't have that issue in this country" which is right. We equally don't have this "wokeness" of which you are completely dogmatically obsessed about either. It swings both ways.
We have enough issues of our own to worry about, without transplanting American culture wars into the UK.
Terry Gilliam might have something to say about that.
I have heard of precisely zero people IRL agitating for another lockdown. Yes, I know, dovish London etc etc etc – I realise that other areas are different. But is there anywhere in the UK where people are clinging to their homes, praying that the government soon forces everyone to stay inside? Really? I just can't believe that.I hew heard of precisely zero people ITL agitating for another lockdown. Yes, I know, dovish London etc etc etc – I realise that other areas are different. But is there anywhere in the UK where people are clinging to their homes, praying that the government soon forces everyone to stay inside? Really? I just can't believe that.
Agree, I don't think people are agitating for a lockdown. And we shouldn't need one, unless we get some new and nasty variant.
But, I do know people (older/more vulnerable on average) who are reducing social contact and avoiding events where they feel unsafe. That is likely to continue whilst cases are high I would guess.
The trouble is case numbers now may not be that much higher than the endemic equilibrium. In which case the fear continues, in theory indefinitely.
Where are these fearful people of whom you write? They are certainly not here, in London, where people are behaving as normal, and getting on with their lives.
OGH is absolutely right that the Tories are stupid to get involved in this and be seen to be trying to change the process to avoid one of their own off the hook. It should be down to the individual MP, not the party and especially not the Government, to mount any challenge or appeal if they feel they have been wronged by the system.
But...
What is the process for an MP to appeal a decision if they feel it is wrong and the Commissioner has been either negligent or malicious? I assume there must be some process whereby a decision can be challenged? I just don't know what that system is. The idea that an MP can be ruined at the whim of an individual seems as wrong to me as it would be if it were anyone outside Parliament. There at least there is an accepted appeals process.
Paterson was investigated by the Parliamentary Commissioner for Standards. Her report was upheld by a jury of his peers, including four Tory MPs. If you read the report, he was challenging the findings throughout, and the investigation process gave him many opportunities, which he took, to challenge the findings. So in a sense an appeals process is built in.
Now, if MPs think that the whole process is unsatisfactory, then of course they can change it, just as they installed the current one. But to seek to change it following a judgment that they don't like is simply appalling. Would they be doing this if it was an opposition MP? Of course not. If they let the Paterson verdict stand and then brought forward changes, then fair enough.
There is the question as to who an appeal could go to, if the original decision was by the Parliamentary Standards cross party Committee.
Who would be qualified to hear such an appeal? Obviously the government itself should not be that body.
There is a clear pattern that is a massive problem*
The government believes the rules do not apply to themselves. Or more specifically that they are flawless and do not make bad decisions, so any finding that to the reverse must itself be wrong.
We saw the absurdity of the Home Secretary being found to have broken the Ministerial Code by bullying, overturned by the PM. Allegations the PM was in breach over wallpapergate where Number 10 confirmed that if he was found to be in breach, he would overturn that ruling. Where ministers are directly accused by the speaker of repeated breaches of the ministerial code flat out ignored.
And now this. Investigated by the Independent body. Found in breech, that finding peer-reviewed and validated by Tory MPs. And they still want to overturn it.
*At the moment this makes no difference to polling. People have decided that they have had enough of experts and that means faceless busybodies in our own parliament bullying innocents like Priti Patel. So they can just ignore the rules knowing they have cover for this from their voters.
It isn't good. We can't have a polity where the rules can be ignored, overruled and discarded because the government don't like being caught doing wrong. In the past this would not even be a debate - name me any other Tory PM who would be doing this. Its just the current PM with his notoriously lax personal morals who has brought that into government as policy.
I wonder why someone like Hunt is willing to put his name to such an amendment. If I had to guess, I reckon it's because he and others think that Paterson deserves a lot more credit for raising the issue to begin with.
From what I can gather there is a feeling the the rules have been interpreted so strictly as to verge on the incorrect and unfair. Plus the kangaroo-court aspect that Paterson is obviously concerned about. I don't think he expected the report to conclude as it did because he thought his robust defence would put an end to the matter.
I don't what to think about all this , but in Paterson's own words:
“My arguments and witnesses are not properly represented in the report. My lawyers are astounded by the procedure and said if Parliamentary privilege were surrendered and we had open access to a judge in court, the whole process would be chucked out.”
Yet the accusation seems to be very simple.
Letters were written by him as an MP that didn't mention the paid relationship between him and the companies he was written on behalf of. That lack of detail means the letters would be considered in a different light to how they would otherwise have been treated.
I don't see how the excuses that have appeared in the press changes or excuses the actual accusation..
I don't know either but if, for example, he had made a declaration of his paid interest to a particular body or organisation at an earlier point it might be unreasonable to require him to do it again in every piece of correspondence.
If he were the crusader for public good which he presents himself as, rather than the undeclared paid lobbyist for two different companies, both on whose behalf he claimed to be reporting a health 'emergency', then there was a very simple means of setting the matter straight. ...21. The lobbying rules also provide for Members to release themselves from the restrictions, and thereby resolve any conflict of interest, by repaying any sums received within the relevant time limits: A Member can free him or herself immediately of any restrictions due to a past benefit by repaying the full value of any benefit received from the outside person or organisation in the preceding six month period....
Surely the big story of the day is Virginia, not Owen Patterson
Proximately it strongly suggests swinging Republican gains in 2022, rendering Biden a lame duck who will do very little, making it easier for the GOP to retake the White House in 2024
Ultimately, it is much bigger than that. It is the first time a shrewd right winger has cleverly weaponised Wokeness as a stick to thwack the Left, and boy, it works. Voters loathe this race and gender bullshit
I see almost no reason why the Republicans can’t repeat this across America, and the Counter-Reformation could spread to Canada, Oz, and the UK.
I say ‘almost’ because Trump, of course. He is the one confounding factor. Republicans need him to disappear, even as they maintain their grip on his base. If they can do that, they could dominate elections for a decade, because the American Left is not getting any less insane, any time soon
Virginia also neatly answers that persistent question. “What is Wokeness?”. Wokeness is what lost the Virginia election for the Left
Certainly the GOP should retake the House next year on this swing at least.
However then they run into the problem of Trump being favoured nominee of their base again in 2024, in which case Biden won in 2020 as an inoffensive non wokeist to keep out Trump and could do so again.
On your broader point Zemmour in France is also rising in the polls next year on a relentlessly anti woke agenda (although he still narrowly trails Macron) and Boris and Morrison in the UK and Australia are both capable of playing the culture wars card when they need to.
Trudeau was re elected in September in Canada as a wokeist but failed to win a majority and again lost the popular vote to the Conservatives.
Electorally, while most people in the west want race and gender equality they do not want their history and culture trashed either, that is the key message of the GOP win in Virginia.
Wokeism may win in ultra liberal California (hence Meghan lives there) it doesn't much beyond that and university towns and the inner cities
It's becoming clear to me that GOP are clear favourites for 2024 if they are led by anyone other than Trump. With Trump I'm not quite so sure.
I have heard of precisely zero people IRL agitating for another lockdown. Yes, I know, dovish London etc etc etc – I realise that other areas are different. But is there anywhere in the UK where people are clinging to their homes, praying that the government soon forces everyone to stay inside? Really? I just can't believe that.I hew heard of precisely zero people ITL agitating for another lockdown. Yes, I know, dovish London etc etc etc – I realise that other areas are different. But is there anywhere in the UK where people are clinging to their homes, praying that the government soon forces everyone to stay inside? Really? I just can't believe that.
Agree, I don't think people are agitating for a lockdown. And we shouldn't need one, unless we get some new and nasty variant.
But, I do know people (older/more vulnerable on average) who are reducing social contact and avoiding events where they feel unsafe. That is likely to continue whilst cases are high I would guess.
The trouble is case numbers now may not be that much higher than the endemic equilibrium. In which case the fear continues, in theory indefinitely.
Where are these fearful people of whom you write? They are certainly not here, in London, where people are behaving as normal, and getting on with their lives.
Obviously you won't see the fearful people, because they will be at home.
I have heard of precisely zero people IRL agitating for another lockdown. Yes, I know, dovish London etc etc etc – I realise that other areas are different. But is there anywhere in the UK where people are clinging to their homes, praying that the government soon forces everyone to stay inside? Really? I just can't believe that.I hew heard of precisely zero people ITL agitating for another lockdown. Yes, I know, dovish London etc etc etc – I realise that other areas are different. But is there anywhere in the UK where people are clinging to their homes, praying that the government soon forces everyone to stay inside? Really? I just can't believe that.
Agree, I don't think people are agitating for a lockdown. And we shouldn't need one, unless we get some new and nasty variant.
But, I do know people (older/more vulnerable on average) who are reducing social contact and avoiding events where they feel unsafe. That is likely to continue whilst cases are high I would guess.
The trouble is case numbers now may not be that much higher than the endemic equilibrium. In which case the fear continues, in theory indefinitely.
Where are these fearful people of whom you write? They are certainly not here, in London, where people are behaving as normal, and getting on with their lives.
Well the comment I was responding to gave one such example right there. My parents still seem more fearful than makes sense (they've had their boosters too). I have a client - based just outside London - who will not meet face to face yet until she has had a booster, and I was speaking to a colleague in Geneva yesterday who was wearing a mask at her desk in the office and told me she is keeping clear of any crowded events (and their case rates are much lower than ours). The fear is definitely there. Bear in mind the people we see out and about in London are self-selecting. Logically you're not going to see those who are staying at home out in the streets.
I have been in the get back to normal camp for months but am constantly surprised my how many people aren't, and the only way we bring them onside is I think through the passage of time, and allowing this to fall out of the headlines.
I have heard of precisely zero people IRL agitating for another lockdown. Yes, I know, dovish London etc etc etc – I realise that other areas are different. But is there anywhere in the UK where people are clinging to their homes, praying that the government soon forces everyone to stay inside? Really? I just can't believe that.I hew heard of precisely zero people ITL agitating for another lockdown. Yes, I know, dovish London etc etc etc – I realise that other areas are different. But is there anywhere in the UK where people are clinging to their homes, praying that the government soon forces everyone to stay inside? Really? I just can't believe that.
Agree, I don't think people are agitating for a lockdown. And we shouldn't need one, unless we get some new and nasty variant.
But, I do know people (older/more vulnerable on average) who are reducing social contact and avoiding events where they feel unsafe. That is likely to continue whilst cases are high I would guess.
The trouble is case numbers now may not be that much higher than the endemic equilibrium. In which case the fear continues, in theory indefinitely.
I think people would adjust their expectations if case numbers stay stable.
But I'm sceptical an endemic equilibrium would be at this level... ONS thinks 1 in 50 have it or over 1m have COVID right now. Unless reinfections become much more common, how can we stay at this level?
We have found 9m cases in the UK... so surely at least 20m-30m have actually had COVID by now. And over 90% have antibodies.
Surely the big story of the day is Virginia, not Owen Patterson
Proximately it strongly suggests swinging Republican gains in 2022, rendering Biden a lame duck who will do very little, making it easier for the GOP to retake the White House in 2024
Ultimately, it is much bigger than that. It is the first time a shrewd right winger has cleverly weaponised Wokeness as a stick to thwack the Left, and boy, it works. Voters loathe this race and gender bullshit
I see almost no reason why the Republicans can’t repeat this across America, and the Counter-Reformation could spread to Canada, Oz, and the UK.
I say ‘almost’ because Trump, of course. He is the one confounding factor. Republicans need him to disappear, even as they maintain their grip on his base. If they can do that, they could dominate elections for a decade, because the American Left is not getting any less insane, any time soon
Virginia also neatly answers that persistent question. “What is Wokeness?”. Wokeness is what lost the Virginia election for the Left
Certainly the GOP should retake the House next year on this swing at least.
However then they run into the problem of Trump being favoured nominee of their base again in 2024, in which case Biden won in 2020 as an inoffensive non wokeist to keep out Trump and could do so again.
On your broader point Zemmour in France is also rising in the polls next year on a relentlessly anti woke agenda (although he still narrowly trails Macron) and Boris and Morrison in the UK and Australia are both capable of playing the culture wars card when they need to.
Trudeau was re elected in September in Canada as a wokeist but failed to win a majority and again lost the popular vote to the Conservatives.
Electorally, while most people in the west want race and gender equality they do not want their history and culture trashed either, that is the key message of the GOP win in Virginia.
Wokeism may win in ultra liberal California (hence Meghan lives there) it doesn't much beyond that and university towns and the inner cities
"Boris...and...Morrison are both capable of playing the culture wars card when they need" is a desperately depressing statement. Playing to voters baser fears and instincts-nice!
Surely the big story of the day is Virginia, not Owen Patterson
Proximately it strongly suggests swinging Republican gains in 2022, rendering Biden a lame duck who will do very little, making it easier for the GOP to retake the White House in 2024
Ultimately, it is much bigger than that. It is the first time a shrewd right winger has cleverly weaponised Wokeness as a stick to thwack the Left, and boy, it works. Voters loathe this race and gender bullshit
I see almost no reason why the Republicans can’t repeat this across America, and the Counter-Reformation could spread to Canada, Oz, and the UK.
I say ‘almost’ because Trump, of course. He is the one confounding factor. Republicans need him to disappear, even as they maintain their grip on his base. If they can do that, they could dominate elections for a decade, because the American Left is not getting any less insane, any time soon
Virginia also neatly answers that persistent question. “What is Wokeness?”. Wokeness is what lost the Virginia election for the Left
The "war on woke", especially in the context of the VA gubernatorial election, is just the latest incarnation of Nixon's Southern Strategy, which has been paying handsome dividends for the Republicans since the 1960s. It will have some traction as a strategy outside the US but I suspect it will lose some of its virility, even if tweaked for local conditions. The Tories and their proxies are certainly trying it on.
Leaves on the line. Not a funny excuse as the media have portrayed it.
Yep, I just read the report. Just imagine being the driver
Driver applies brakes well before the signal Driver applies emergency brakes before the signal Emergency systems apply their additional emergency brakes as it passes the signal
And the train just keeps on going..
On the upside, as everything is recorded at least the driver is shown to not be at fault.
They were *very* lucky to have impacted in a way to derail them down the tunnel and not into the external portal.
Surely the big story of the day is Virginia, not Owen Patterson
Proximately it strongly suggests swinging Republican gains in 2022, rendering Biden a lame duck who will do very little, making it easier for the GOP to retake the White House in 2024
Ultimately, it is much bigger than that. It is the first time a shrewd right winger has cleverly weaponised Wokeness as a stick to thwack the Left, and boy, it works. Voters loathe this race and gender bullshit
I see almost no reason why the Republicans can’t repeat this across America, and the Counter-Reformation could spread to Canada, Oz, and the UK.
I say ‘almost’ because Trump, of course. He is the one confounding factor. Republicans need him to disappear, even as they maintain their grip on his base. If they can do that, they could dominate elections for a decade, because the American Left is not getting any less insane, any time soon
Virginia also neatly answers that persistent question. “What is Wokeness?”. Wokeness is what lost the Virginia election for the Left
Certainly the GOP should retake the House next year on this swing at least.
However then they run into the problem of Trump being favoured nominee of their base again in 2024, in which case Biden won in 2020 as an inoffensive non wokeist to keep out Trump and could do so again.
On your broader point Zemmour in France is also rising in the polls next year on a relentlessly anti woke agenda (although he still narrowly trails Macron) and Boris and Morrison in the UK and Australia are both capable of playing the culture wars card when they need to.
Trudeau was re elected in September in Canada as a wokeist but failed to win a majority and again lost the popular vote to the Conservatives.
Electorally, while most people in the west want race and gender equality they do not want their history and culture trashed either, that is the key message of the GOP win in Virginia.
Wokeism may win in ultra liberal California (hence Meghan lives there) it doesn't much beyond that and university towns and the inner cities
It's becoming clear to me that GOP are clear favourites for 2024 if they are led by anyone other than Trump. With Trump I'm not quite so sure.
So I read the GOP just won this Virginia race campaigning against something that was a flat out fantasy. People like being told things that play to their prejudices and perceptions even if that thing is a lie. Trump is the Pied Piper to these people.
Surely the big story of the day is Virginia, not Owen Patterson
Proximately it strongly suggests swinging Republican gains in 2022, rendering Biden a lame duck who will do very little, making it easier for the GOP to retake the White House in 2024
Ultimately, it is much bigger than that. It is the first time a shrewd right winger has cleverly weaponised Wokeness as a stick to thwack the Left, and boy, it works. Voters loathe this race and gender bullshit
I see almost no reason why the Republicans can’t repeat this across America, and the Counter-Reformation could spread to Canada, Oz, and the UK.
I say ‘almost’ because Trump, of course. He is the one confounding factor. Republicans need him to disappear, even as they maintain their grip on his base. If they can do that, they could dominate elections for a decade, because the American Left is not getting any less insane, any time soon
Virginia also neatly answers that persistent question. “What is Wokeness?”. Wokeness is what lost the Virginia election for the Left
Except that "wokeness" as is happening in America like many such culture wars just doesn't apply in the UK.
Last year some responded to the Black Lives Matter movement by saying "OK fair enough to protest American police violence but we don't have that issue in this country" which is right. We equally don't have this "wokeness" of which you are completely dogmatically obsessed about either. It swings both ways.
We have enough issues of our own to worry about, without transplanting American culture wars into the UK.
lol. I’m ‘dogmatically obsessed’ with Wokeness. Ok. Whatever.
You and others keep telling me it’s trivial, not an issue, just new ways of being polite. Yada yaddddda. Well here it is winning a dramatic and important election, and crippling a U.S. president. Wokeness is not trivial, it is huge
On your other point I tend to agree. The UK is not so deeply sunk in the Culture War as America, but we are certainly heading in the same direction. See our endless pointless ranting arguments about statue-toppling and trans rights. We do not have the poisoned racial debate of America, thank God, but in other ways we are even worse than them (the trans-TERF war is nastier in Britain)
Ironically the best way for Britain to avoid America’s fate is for us to keep electing moderate Tories, who will stand firm against the wilder lunacies
I have heard of precisely zero people IRL agitating for another lockdown. Yes, I know, dovish London etc etc etc – I realise that other areas are different. But is there anywhere in the UK where people are clinging to their homes, praying that the government soon forces everyone to stay inside? Really? I just can't believe that.I hew heard of precisely zero people ITL agitating for another lockdown. Yes, I know, dovish London etc etc etc – I realise that other areas are different. But is there anywhere in the UK where people are clinging to their homes, praying that the government soon forces everyone to stay inside? Really? I just can't believe that.
Agree, I don't think people are agitating for a lockdown. And we shouldn't need one, unless we get some new and nasty variant.
But, I do know people (older/more vulnerable on average) who are reducing social contact and avoiding events where they feel unsafe. That is likely to continue whilst cases are high I would guess.
The trouble is case numbers now may not be that much higher than the endemic equilibrium. In which case the fear continues, in theory indefinitely.
Where are these fearful people of whom you write? They are certainly not here, in London, where people are behaving as normal, and getting on with their lives.
Obviously you won't see the fearful people, because they will be at home.
You would hear of them though! And work with them (remotely). Yet I can think of precisely zero. I do have one colleague who is more hawkish on masks etc, but even she goes out and fraternises, so it's not clear to me where Team Fear are hiding, or if they exist at all.
Surely the big story of the day is Virginia, not Owen Patterson
Proximately it strongly suggests swinging Republican gains in 2022, rendering Biden a lame duck who will do very little, making it easier for the GOP to retake the White House in 2024
Ultimately, it is much bigger than that. It is the first time a shrewd right winger has cleverly weaponised Wokeness as a stick to thwack the Left, and boy, it works. Voters loathe this race and gender bullshit
I see almost no reason why the Republicans can’t repeat this across America, and the Counter-Reformation could spread to Canada, Oz, and the UK.
I say ‘almost’ because Trump, of course. He is the one confounding factor. Republicans need him to disappear, even as they maintain their grip on his base. If they can do that, they could dominate elections for a decade, because the American Left is not getting any less insane, any time soon
Virginia also neatly answers that persistent question. “What is Wokeness?”. Wokeness is what lost the Virginia election for the Left
Except that "wokeness" as is happening in America like many such culture wars just doesn't apply in the UK.
Last year some responded to the Black Lives Matter movement by saying "OK fair enough to protest American police violence but we don't have that issue in this country" which is right. We equally don't have this "wokeness" of which you are completely dogmatically obsessed about either. It swings both ways.
We have enough issues of our own to worry about, without transplanting American culture wars into the UK.
lol. I’m ‘dogmatically obsessed’ with Wokeness. Ok. Whatever.
You and others keep telling me it’s trivial, not an issue, just new ways of being polite. Yada yaddddda. Well here it is winning a dramatic and important election, and crippling a U.S. president. Wokeness is not trivial, it is huge
On your other point I tend to agree. The UK is not so deeply sunk in the Culture War as America, but we are certainly heading in the same direction. See our endless pointless ranting arguments about statue-toppling and trans rights. We do not have the poisoned racial debate of America, thank God, but in other ways we are even worse than them (the trans-TERF war is nastier in Britain)
Ironically the best way for Britain to avoid America’s fate is for us to keep electing moderate Tories, who will stand firm against the wilder lunacies
Glad you agree your rantings on statues are both pointless and endless.
I too, as a poster on a politics site, cannot remember when Pat Buchannan stood on stage at the '92 GOP Convention and gave his famous "Culture War" speech and as a result I think "Wokeness" is some magical modern thing that the GOP have only just begun to cotton-on to.
Surely the big story of the day is Virginia, not Owen Patterson
Proximately it strongly suggests swinging Republican gains in 2022, rendering Biden a lame duck who will do very little, making it easier for the GOP to retake the White House in 2024
Ultimately, it is much bigger than that. It is the first time a shrewd right winger has cleverly weaponised Wokeness as a stick to thwack the Left, and boy, it works. Voters loathe this race and gender bullshit
I see almost no reason why the Republicans can’t repeat this across America, and the Counter-Reformation could spread to Canada, Oz, and the UK.
I say ‘almost’ because Trump, of course. He is the one confounding factor. Republicans need him to disappear, even as they maintain their grip on his base. If they can do that, they could dominate elections for a decade, because the American Left is not getting any less insane, any time soon
Virginia also neatly answers that persistent question. “What is Wokeness?”. Wokeness is what lost the Virginia election for the Left
Certainly the GOP should retake the House next year on this swing at least.
However then they run into the problem of Trump being favoured nominee of their base again in 2024, in which case Biden won in 2020 as an inoffensive non wokeist to keep out Trump and could do so again.
On your broader point Zemmour in France is also rising in the polls next year on a relentlessly anti woke agenda (although he still narrowly trails Macron) and Boris and Morrison in the UK and Australia are both capable of playing the culture wars card when they need to.
Trudeau was re elected in September in Canada as a wokeist but failed to win a majority and again lost the popular vote to the Conservatives.
Electorally, while most people in the west want race and gender equality they do not want their history and culture trashed either, that is the key message of the GOP win in Virginia.
Wokeism may win in ultra liberal California (hence Meghan lives there) it doesn't much beyond that and university towns and the inner cities
It's becoming clear to me that GOP are clear favourites for 2024 if they are led by anyone other than Trump. With Trump I'm not quite so sure.
So I read the GOP just won this Virginia race campaigning against something that was a flat out fantasy. People like being told things that play to their prejudices and perceptions even if that thing is a lie. Trump is the Pied Piper to these people.
It’s absolutely not a ‘fantasy’. Do some research. American education is riddled with mad leftist theories and now practises - Virginia is no exception. The Democrats tried to argue that because some key texts of Critical Race Theory are not taught in Virginian schools, the accusation that CRT is used by Virginian teachers is a lie
Technically the Dems were probably right, in spirit the Republicans are right. Wokeness IS infesting the US education system. Voters hate it. The GOP won
I have heard of precisely zero people IRL agitating for another lockdown. Yes, I know, dovish London etc etc etc – I realise that other areas are different. But is there anywhere in the UK where people are clinging to their homes, praying that the government soon forces everyone to stay inside? Really? I just can't believe that.I hew heard of precisely zero people ITL agitating for another lockdown. Yes, I know, dovish London etc etc etc – I realise that other areas are different. But is there anywhere in the UK where people are clinging to their homes, praying that the government soon forces everyone to stay inside? Really? I just can't believe that.
Agree, I don't think people are agitating for a lockdown. And we shouldn't need one, unless we get some new and nasty variant.
But, I do know people (older/more vulnerable on average) who are reducing social contact and avoiding events where they feel unsafe. That is likely to continue whilst cases are high I would guess.
The trouble is case numbers now may not be that much higher than the endemic equilibrium. In which case the fear continues, in theory indefinitely.
Where are these fearful people of whom you write? They are certainly not here, in London, where people are behaving as normal, and getting on with their lives.
Obviously you won't see the fearful people, because they will be at home.
You would hear of them though! And work with them (remotely). Yet I can think of precisely zero. I do have one colleague who is more hawkish on masks etc, but even she goes out and fraternises, so it's not clear to me where Team Fear are hiding, or if they exist at all.
Well you have heard of them. I, and others, have given you examples of people we know.
That you don't know of any in your social circle is random chance.
I have heard of precisely zero people IRL agitating for another lockdown. Yes, I know, dovish London etc etc etc – I realise that other areas are different. But is there anywhere in the UK where people are clinging to their homes, praying that the government soon forces everyone to stay inside? Really? I just can't believe that.I hew heard of precisely zero people ITL agitating for another lockdown. Yes, I know, dovish London etc etc etc – I realise that other areas are different. But is there anywhere in the UK where people are clinging to their homes, praying that the government soon forces everyone to stay inside? Really? I just can't believe that.
Agree, I don't think people are agitating for a lockdown. And we shouldn't need one, unless we get some new and nasty variant.
But, I do know people (older/more vulnerable on average) who are reducing social contact and avoiding events where they feel unsafe. That is likely to continue whilst cases are high I would guess.
The trouble is case numbers now may not be that much higher than the endemic equilibrium. In which case the fear continues, in theory indefinitely.
Where are these fearful people of whom you write? They are certainly not here, in London, where people are behaving as normal, and getting on with their lives.
Obviously you won't see the fearful people, because they will be at home.
You would hear of them though! And work with them (remotely). Yet I can think of precisely zero. I do have one colleague who is more hawkish on masks etc, but even she goes out and fraternises, so it's not clear to me where Team Fear are hiding, or if they exist at all.
I too, as a poster on a politics site, cannot remember when Pat Buchannan stood on stage at the '92 GOP Convention and gave his famous "Culture War" speech and as a result I think "Wokeness" is some magical modern thing that the GOP have only just begun to cotton-on to.
Do you honestly not see how this new wave of Leftist agitation is on a completely different scale to anything we’ve seen before? And has much more profound and - to many - troubling implications?
I am amazed how many sane PB-ers don’t get it. They don’t even seem to comprehend there is an issue
There is an issue. Virginia shows I am right to keep ‘banging on about it’
I too, as a poster on a politics site, cannot remember when Pat Buchannan stood on stage at the '92 GOP Convention and gave his famous "Culture War" speech and as a result I think "Wokeness" is some magical modern thing that the GOP have only just begun to cotton-on to.
I do love the way that 'liberal' alone is seen by the right of US politics as a perjorative. Here you have to combine with 'metropolitan' and 'elite' to get the same effect.
I have heard of precisely zero people IRL agitating for another lockdown. Yes, I know, dovish London etc etc etc – I realise that other areas are different. But is there anywhere in the UK where people are clinging to their homes, praying that the government soon forces everyone to stay inside? Really? I just can't believe that.I hew heard of precisely zero people ITL agitating for another lockdown. Yes, I know, dovish London etc etc etc – I realise that other areas are different. But is there anywhere in the UK where people are clinging to their homes, praying that the government soon forces everyone to stay inside? Really? I just can't believe that.
Agree, I don't think people are agitating for a lockdown. And we shouldn't need one, unless we get some new and nasty variant.
But, I do know people (older/more vulnerable on average) who are reducing social contact and avoiding events where they feel unsafe. That is likely to continue whilst cases are high I would guess.
The trouble is case numbers now may not be that much higher than the endemic equilibrium. In which case the fear continues, in theory indefinitely.
Where are these fearful people of whom you write? They are certainly not here, in London, where people are behaving as normal, and getting on with their lives.
Obviously you won't see the fearful people, because they will be at home.
You would hear of them though! And work with them (remotely). Yet I can think of precisely zero. I do have one colleague who is more hawkish on masks etc, but even she goes out and fraternises, so it's not clear to me where Team Fear are hiding, or if they exist at all.
Underground and London buses running at 70-80% of pre-pandemic capacity on the weekend.
The commuter stuff may be a shift to working from home which arguably is as much convenience for workers as fear of COVID.
But presumably people going out on public transport less at weekend is a sign of people being concerned about covid.
I like to think that my wife and my reticence about going anywhere unmasked when near other people is precisely because
1) We don't want to catch it from carefree younger people, and 2) We don't want another lockdown either.
The big problem we have is an upcoming funeral in 2 weeks in England. Do we wear a mask when inside for the reception? or go home after the incineration?
I am not quite as convinced as Mr Smithson about the resonance of this issue. Voters think something like this: virtually all politicians have mixed motives, and are on some sort of self help drive along with all the other things. This can of course be financial as well as many other motivations - fame, power, popularity and all the rest of the farrago of nonsense that makes up Vanity Fair.
Lobbying is not wrong in itself. Obvs it can be pure conspiracy to corrupt and defraud for personal gain; but lobbying can and does vary from pure corruption to a desire to improve maternity services and the care of mothers and babies, support the starving, and everything in between.
In the actual world the people who get stuff done, create wealth and are change makers are rarely pure and simple in their motives. The political process is central to oiling the wheels that make such things possible and profitable.
The voter takes a wary, cautious and realistic view of the entire process.
I too, as a poster on a politics site, cannot remember when Pat Buchannan stood on stage at the '92 GOP Convention and gave his famous "Culture War" speech and as a result I think "Wokeness" is some magical modern thing that the GOP have only just begun to cotton-on to.
And Buchanan got (unsurprisingly) smashed in the 1992 primary by the incumbent, who then (rather more surprisingly) went on to lose the General, partially because moderate voters were turned off by the GOP's apparent descent into far-rightery.
The point is surely that now swing voters are looking at how much further the Democrats have lurched in the last 30 years, and now they don't like it? It's difficult to pinpoint exactly at what point the needle swung on this issue, but it's starting to become clear that it has swung. And it's undoubtedly the case that the Right (both in the US and the UK, and presumably elsewhere) have not been particularly focused on this issue for most of the intervening period.
I too, as a poster on a politics site, cannot remember when Pat Buchannan stood on stage at the '92 GOP Convention and gave his famous "Culture War" speech and as a result I think "Wokeness" is some magical modern thing that the GOP have only just begun to cotton-on to.
I do love the way that 'liberal' alone is seen by the right of US politics as a perjorative. Here you have to combine with 'metropolitan' and 'elite' to get the same effect.
But elite in this context seems to simply mean have a degree, and specifically does not include having a family castle, a father who was the editor of the Times, or going to Eton.
I have heard of precisely zero people IRL agitating for another lockdown. Yes, I know, dovish London etc etc etc – I realise that other areas are different. But is there anywhere in the UK where people are clinging to their homes, praying that the government soon forces everyone to stay inside? Really? I just can't believe that.I hew heard of precisely zero people ITL agitating for another lockdown. Yes, I know, dovish London etc etc etc – I realise that other areas are different. But is there anywhere in the UK where people are clinging to their homes, praying that the government soon forces everyone to stay inside? Really? I just can't believe that.
Agree, I don't think people are agitating for a lockdown. And we shouldn't need one, unless we get some new and nasty variant.
But, I do know people (older/more vulnerable on average) who are reducing social contact and avoiding events where they feel unsafe. That is likely to continue whilst cases are high I would guess.
The trouble is case numbers now may not be that much higher than the endemic equilibrium. In which case the fear continues, in theory indefinitely.
Where are these fearful people of whom you write? They are certainly not here, in London, where people are behaving as normal, and getting on with their lives.
Obviously you won't see the fearful people, because they will be at home.
You would hear of them though! And work with them (remotely). Yet I can think of precisely zero. I do have one colleague who is more hawkish on masks etc, but even she goes out and fraternises, so it's not clear to me where Team Fear are hiding, or if they exist at all.
Surely the big story of the day is Virginia, not Owen Patterson
Proximately it strongly suggests swinging Republican gains in 2022, rendering Biden a lame duck who will do very little, making it easier for the GOP to retake the White House in 2024
Ultimately, it is much bigger than that. It is the first time a shrewd right winger has cleverly weaponised Wokeness as a stick to thwack the Left, and boy, it works. Voters loathe this race and gender bullshit
I see almost no reason why the Republicans can’t repeat this across America, and the Counter-Reformation could spread to Canada, Oz, and the UK.
I say ‘almost’ because Trump, of course. He is the one confounding factor. Republicans need him to disappear, even as they maintain their grip on his base. If they can do that, they could dominate elections for a decade, because the American Left is not getting any less insane, any time soon
Virginia also neatly answers that persistent question. “What is Wokeness?”. Wokeness is what lost the Virginia election for the Left
Except that "wokeness" as is happening in America like many such culture wars just doesn't apply in the UK.
Last year some responded to the Black Lives Matter movement by saying "OK fair enough to protest American police violence but we don't have that issue in this country" which is right. We equally don't have this "wokeness" of which you are completely dogmatically obsessed about either. It swings both ways.
We have enough issues of our own to worry about, without transplanting American culture wars into the UK.
lol. I’m ‘dogmatically obsessed’ with Wokeness. Ok. Whatever.
You and others keep telling me it’s trivial, not an issue, just new ways of being polite. Yada yaddddda. Well here it is winning a dramatic and important election, and crippling a U.S. president. Wokeness is not trivial, it is huge
On your other point I tend to agree. The UK is not so deeply sunk in the Culture War as America, but we are certainly heading in the same direction. See our endless pointless ranting arguments about statue-toppling and trans rights. We do not have the poisoned racial debate of America, thank God, but in other ways we are even worse than them (the trans-TERF war is nastier in Britain)
Ironically the best way for Britain to avoid America’s fate is for us to keep electing moderate Tories, who will stand firm against the wilder lunacies
"Moderate" Tory MPs are about to end independent oversight of their colleagues' behaviour, are set to back plans to make it harder to vote in elections, support making public protest illegal and believe the government should be beyond judicial scrutiny. But at least we get to protect statues of people who made fortunes from slavery. Phew!
I have heard of precisely zero people IRL agitating for another lockdown. Yes, I know, dovish London etc etc etc – I realise that other areas are different. But is there anywhere in the UK where people are clinging to their homes, praying that the government soon forces everyone to stay inside? Really? I just can't believe that.I hew heard of precisely zero people ITL agitating for another lockdown. Yes, I know, dovish London etc etc etc – I realise that other areas are different. But is there anywhere in the UK where people are clinging to their homes, praying that the government soon forces everyone to stay inside? Really? I just can't believe that.
Agree, I don't think people are agitating for a lockdown. And we shouldn't need one, unless we get some new and nasty variant.
But, I do know people (older/more vulnerable on average) who are reducing social contact and avoiding events where they feel unsafe. That is likely to continue whilst cases are high I would guess.
The trouble is case numbers now may not be that much higher than the endemic equilibrium. In which case the fear continues, in theory indefinitely.
Where are these fearful people of whom you write? They are certainly not here, in London, where people are behaving as normal, and getting on with their lives.
Obviously you won't see the fearful people, because they will be at home.
You would hear of them though! And work with them (remotely). Yet I can think of precisely zero. I do have one colleague who is more hawkish on masks etc, but even she goes out and fraternises, so it's not clear to me where Team Fear are hiding, or if they exist at all.
Underground and London buses running at 70-80% of pre-pandemic capacity on the weekend.
The commuter stuff may be a shift to working from home which arguably is as much convenience for workers as fear of COVID.
But presumably people going out on public transport less at weekend is a sign of people being concerned about covid.
I like to think that my wife and my reticence about going anywhere unmasked when near other people is precisely because
1) We don't want to catch it from carefree younger people, and 2) We don't want another lockdown either.
The big problem we have is an upcoming funeral in 2 weeks in England. Do we wear a mask when inside for the reception? or go home after the incineration?
Have you had your full requisite of vaccinations? If you have, then no more protection will ever be afforded to you. So that implies you will wear a mask forever?
I wonder why someone like Hunt is willing to put his name to such an amendment. If I had to guess, I reckon it's because he and others think that Paterson deserves a lot more credit for raising the issue to begin with.
From what I can gather there is a feeling the the rules have been interpreted so strictly as to verge on the incorrect and unfair. Plus the kangaroo-court aspect that Paterson is obviously concerned about. I don't think he expected the report to conclude as it did because he thought his robust defence would put an end to the matter.
I don't what to think about all this , but in Paterson's own words:
“My arguments and witnesses are not properly represented in the report. My lawyers are astounded by the procedure and said if Parliamentary privilege were surrendered and we had open access to a judge in court, the whole process would be chucked out.”
Yet the accusation seems to be very simple.
Letters were written by him as an MP that didn't mention the paid relationship between him and the companies he was written on behalf of. That lack of detail means the letters would be considered in a different light to how they would otherwise have been treated.
I don't see how the excuses that have appeared in the press changes or excuses the actual accusation..
I don't know either but if, for example, he had made a declaration of his paid interest to a particular body or organisation at an earlier point it might be unreasonable to require him to do it again in every piece of correspondence.
If he were the crusader for public good which he presents himself as, rather than the undeclared paid lobbyist for two different companies, both on whose behalf he claimed to be reporting a health 'emergency', then there was a very simple means of setting the matter straight. ...21. The lobbying rules also provide for Members to release themselves from the restrictions, and thereby resolve any conflict of interest, by repaying any sums received within the relevant time limits: A Member can free him or herself immediately of any restrictions due to a past benefit by repaying the full value of any benefit received from the outside person or organisation in the preceding six month period....
Well quite. And then there is the fact that the cross bench committee appointed for the purpose, conscious of their responsibilities, voted unanimously to support the Commissioner's recommendations.
Surely the big story of the day is Virginia, not Owen Patterson
Proximately it strongly suggests swinging Republican gains in 2022, rendering Biden a lame duck who will do very little, making it easier for the GOP to retake the White House in 2024
Ultimately, it is much bigger than that. It is the first time a shrewd right winger has cleverly weaponised Wokeness as a stick to thwack the Left, and boy, it works. Voters loathe this race and gender bullshit
I see almost no reason why the Republicans can’t repeat this across America, and the Counter-Reformation could spread to Canada, Oz, and the UK.
I say ‘almost’ because Trump, of course. He is the one confounding factor. Republicans need him to disappear, even as they maintain their grip on his base. If they can do that, they could dominate elections for a decade, because the American Left is not getting any less insane, any time soon
Virginia also neatly answers that persistent question. “What is Wokeness?”. Wokeness is what lost the Virginia election for the Left
Certainly the GOP should retake the House next year on this swing at least.
However then they run into the problem of Trump being favoured nominee of their base again in 2024, in which case Biden won in 2020 as an inoffensive non wokeist to keep out Trump and could do so again.
On your broader point Zemmour in France is also rising in the polls next year on a relentlessly anti woke agenda (although he still narrowly trails Macron) and Boris and Morrison in the UK and Australia are both capable of playing the culture wars card when they need to.
Trudeau was re elected in September in Canada as a wokeist but failed to win a majority and again lost the popular vote to the Conservatives.
Electorally, while most people in the west want race and gender equality they do not want their history and culture trashed either, that is the key message of the GOP win in Virginia.
Wokeism may win in ultra liberal California (hence Meghan lives there) it doesn't much beyond that and university towns and the inner cities
It's becoming clear to me that GOP are clear favourites for 2024 if they are led by anyone other than Trump. With Trump I'm not quite so sure.
No because if they go back to Uniparty consensus, many Republicans won't vote for it. The ideal would be Trump policy agenda fronted by a nicer personality than Trump.
Does that person exist? Or would Trump's vanity allow him to pass the baton?
I too, as a poster on a politics site, cannot remember when Pat Buchannan stood on stage at the '92 GOP Convention and gave his famous "Culture War" speech and as a result I think "Wokeness" is some magical modern thing that the GOP have only just begun to cotton-on to.
And Buchanan got (unsurprisingly) smashed in the 1992 primary by the incumbent, who then (rather more surprisingly) went on to lose the General, partially because moderate voters were turned off by the GOP's apparent descent into far-rightery.
The point is surely that now swing voters are looking at how much further the Democrats have lurched in the last 30 years, and now they don't like it? It's difficult to pinpoint exactly at what point the needle swung on this issue, but it's starting to become clear that it has swung. And it's undoubtedly the case that the Right (both in the US and the UK, and presumably elsewhere) have not been particularly focused on this issue for most of the intervening period.
Buchanan did get almost a quarter of the vote in the 1992 GOP primaries and 37% of the vote against Bush in New Hampshire.
Many Buchanan supporters also voted for Perot in the general election, helping Bill Clinton get elected by splitting the conservative vote despite Clinton getting only 43% of the popular vote.
Buchanan was mainly a reaction to the liberal counterculture that began in the 1960s (see also Phyllis Schlafly), now wokeism is being met equally by a conservative counter reaction
This is the most up to date figures I can find. Most of the other media seem to be on 84%. It always seems odd to me how the US seems to lose interest in its election results after a day or so, even when there is no result at all.
Anyhoo, if I were an enterprising soul who is disgusted by this behaviour by Paterson and the Tory Party I might be tempted to raise a criminal complaint to the police over Paterson's behaviour.
I too, as a poster on a politics site, cannot remember when Pat Buchannan stood on stage at the '92 GOP Convention and gave his famous "Culture War" speech and as a result I think "Wokeness" is some magical modern thing that the GOP have only just begun to cotton-on to.
Do you honestly not see how this new wave of Leftist agitation is on a completely different scale to anything we’ve seen before? And has much more profound and - to many - troubling implications?
I am amazed how many sane PB-ers don’t get it. They don’t even seem to comprehend there is an issue
There is an issue. Virginia shows I am right to keep ‘banging on about it’
I agree with you wholeheartedly that this is a massive issue, indeed an insult to liberalism as it rows back from science and reason that partly define liberals. I see it as a new puritanism - this time a product of post-modernism (non) thinking.
But you, more than anyone, has dragged the gruesome term "woke" from it's true meaning (which is bad enough) and buttered it all over the rantings of the far-left. This is not productive - it is indeed off-putting even to me who is on your side.
We need to tackle each issue head on on its merits because rationality and logic are on our side. No-one in the real world uses the term "woke" (even as you define it). I've never heard anyone say it. But they are aware of the effects of cancel culture, character assassination etc caused by the social media antics of far left cohorts (which almost amount to a form of terrorism in my view) - the biggest and most troubling issue, which extends it from being a niche issue to a mainstream one, is the leeching into corporations and other large institutions.
Whilst the psychotic, mendacious loons are in a tiny tiny minority, they are unfortunately disproportionally present in positions of influence, including (especially) the public sector and the media.
I have heard of precisely zero people IRL agitating for another lockdown. Yes, I know, dovish London etc etc etc – I realise that other areas are different. But is there anywhere in the UK where people are clinging to their homes, praying that the government soon forces everyone to stay inside? Really? I just can't believe that.I hew heard of precisely zero people ITL agitating for another lockdown. Yes, I know, dovish London etc etc etc – I realise that other areas are different. But is there anywhere in the UK where people are clinging to their homes, praying that the government soon forces everyone to stay inside? Really? I just can't believe that.
Agree, I don't think people are agitating for a lockdown. And we shouldn't need one, unless we get some new and nasty variant.
But, I do know people (older/more vulnerable on average) who are reducing social contact and avoiding events where they feel unsafe. That is likely to continue whilst cases are high I would guess.
The trouble is case numbers now may not be that much higher than the endemic equilibrium. In which case the fear continues, in theory indefinitely.
Where are these fearful people of whom you write? They are certainly not here, in London, where people are behaving as normal, and getting on with their lives.
Obviously you won't see the fearful people, because they will be at home.
You would hear of them though! And work with them (remotely). Yet I can think of precisely zero. I do have one colleague who is more hawkish on masks etc, but even she goes out and fraternises, so it's not clear to me where Team Fear are hiding, or if they exist at all.
Underground and London buses running at 70-80% of pre-pandemic capacity on the weekend.
The commuter stuff may be a shift to working from home which arguably is as much convenience for workers as fear of COVID.
But presumably people going out on public transport less at weekend is a sign of people being concerned about covid.
I like to think that my wife and my reticence about going anywhere unmasked when near other people is precisely because
1) We don't want to catch it from carefree younger people, and 2) We don't want another lockdown either.
The big problem we have is an upcoming funeral in 2 weeks in England. Do we wear a mask when inside for the reception? or go home after the incineration?
Do what you are comfortable with. Unless directed to I would guess most people won't wear a mask but nor will they be particularly surprised or unhappy if someone does wear one. This should not be a big problem you are worrying about 2 weeks before the event.
Anyhoo, if I were an enterprising soul who is disgusted by this behaviour by Paterson and the Tory Party I might be tempted to raise a criminal complaint to the police over Paterson's behaviour.
At least then the criminal justice system would apply.
Surely the big story of the day is Virginia, not Owen Patterson
Proximately it strongly suggests swinging Republican gains in 2022, rendering Biden a lame duck who will do very little, making it easier for the GOP to retake the White House in 2024
Ultimately, it is much bigger than that. It is the first time a shrewd right winger has cleverly weaponised Wokeness as a stick to thwack the Left, and boy, it works. Voters loathe this race and gender bullshit
I see almost no reason why the Republicans can’t repeat this across America, and the Counter-Reformation could spread to Canada, Oz, and the UK.
I say ‘almost’ because Trump, of course. He is the one confounding factor. Republicans need him to disappear, even as they maintain their grip on his base. If they can do that, they could dominate elections for a decade, because the American Left is not getting any less insane, any time soon
Virginia also neatly answers that persistent question. “What is Wokeness?”. Wokeness is what lost the Virginia election for the Left
Except that "wokeness" as is happening in America like many such culture wars just doesn't apply in the UK.
Last year some responded to the Black Lives Matter movement by saying "OK fair enough to protest American police violence but we don't have that issue in this country" which is right. We equally don't have this "wokeness" of which you are completely dogmatically obsessed about either. It swings both ways.
We have enough issues of our own to worry about, without transplanting American culture wars into the UK.
lol. I’m ‘dogmatically obsessed’ with Wokeness. Ok. Whatever.
You and others keep telling me it’s trivial, not an issue, just new ways of being polite. Yada yaddddda. Well here it is winning a dramatic and important election, and crippling a U.S. president. Wokeness is not trivial, it is huge
On your other point I tend to agree. The UK is not so deeply sunk in the Culture War as America, but we are certainly heading in the same direction. See our endless pointless ranting arguments about statue-toppling and trans rights. We do not have the poisoned racial debate of America, thank God, but in other ways we are even worse than them (the trans-TERF war is nastier in Britain)
Ironically the best way for Britain to avoid America’s fate is for us to keep electing moderate Tories, who will stand firm against the wilder lunacies
"Moderate" Tory MPs are about to end independent oversight of their colleagues' behaviour, are set to back plans to make it harder to vote in elections, support making public protest illegal and believe the government should be beyond judicial scrutiny. But at least we get to protect statues of people who made fortunes from slavery. Phew!
Statues we never knew existed nor had any intent of going to see!
Anyone who thinks Woke ‘isn’t an issue’ in the UK should watch this. From this morning
‘How awful this was to listen to. Students are possessed with Salem-style levels of hysteria. Where are the ones who say "hang on, guys, this is just wrong?" What a cowardly country. Shameful.’
I have heard of precisely zero people IRL agitating for another lockdown. Yes, I know, dovish London etc etc etc – I realise that other areas are different. But is there anywhere in the UK where people are clinging to their homes, praying that the government soon forces everyone to stay inside? Really? I just can't believe that.I hew heard of precisely zero people ITL agitating for another lockdown. Yes, I know, dovish London etc etc etc – I realise that other areas are different. But is there anywhere in the UK where people are clinging to their homes, praying that the government soon forces everyone to stay inside? Really? I just can't believe that.
Agree, I don't think people are agitating for a lockdown. And we shouldn't need one, unless we get some new and nasty variant.
But, I do know people (older/more vulnerable on average) who are reducing social contact and avoiding events where they feel unsafe. That is likely to continue whilst cases are high I would guess.
The trouble is case numbers now may not be that much higher than the endemic equilibrium. In which case the fear continues, in theory indefinitely.
Where are these fearful people of whom you write? They are certainly not here, in London, where people are behaving as normal, and getting on with their lives.
Obviously you won't see the fearful people, because they will be at home.
You would hear of them though! And work with them (remotely). Yet I can think of precisely zero. I do have one colleague who is more hawkish on masks etc, but even she goes out and fraternises, so it's not clear to me where Team Fear are hiding, or if they exist at all.
Underground and London buses running at 70-80% of pre-pandemic capacity on the weekend.
The commuter stuff may be a shift to working from home which arguably is as much convenience for workers as fear of COVID.
But presumably people going out on public transport less at weekend is a sign of people being concerned about covid.
I like to think that my wife and my reticence about going anywhere unmasked when near other people is precisely because
1) We don't want to catch it from carefree younger people, and 2) We don't want another lockdown either.
The big problem we have is an upcoming funeral in 2 weeks in England. Do we wear a mask when inside for the reception? or go home after the incineration?
I had to attend a funeral do fairly recently. We were promised by the venue that there was an outside area and that it was all sorted.
Well, there wasn't really (despite it being a nice day) and it ended up with about 60 people in a stuffy room with one door open to the outside (and that only because I propped it open).
Most people there looked pretty nervous - in the way of most funerals a large proportion of the people there were of retirement age - but once you are in it gets rather difficult to just leave. As there were nibbles, nobody was masked (not that this would have made a jot of difference given the lack of air circulation).
It remains the riskiest environment I've been anywhere near since the start of this. I calculated that if nobody had been vaxxed, then the statistics would have suggested that on average the gathering would have resulted in at least one more funeral.
Perhaps because it was a cautious crowd and 95% vaxxed (there were one or two anti-vaxxers) nobody caught the lurgy as far as I know, but still, it was even less fun than the average funeral.
But was it worse setting up a laptop so my dad could watch his sister's funeral online? Probably not. I'm glad we went. I'm also happier to take a few more risks now, which is good. We will all have to.
I have heard of precisely zero people IRL agitating for another lockdown. Yes, I know, dovish London etc etc etc – I realise that other areas are different. But is there anywhere in the UK where people are clinging to their homes, praying that the government soon forces everyone to stay inside? Really? I just can't believe that.I hew heard of precisely zero people ITL agitating for another lockdown. Yes, I know, dovish London etc etc etc – I realise that other areas are different. But is there anywhere in the UK where people are clinging to their homes, praying that the government soon forces everyone to stay inside? Really? I just can't believe that.
Agree, I don't think people are agitating for a lockdown. And we shouldn't need one, unless we get some new and nasty variant.
But, I do know people (older/more vulnerable on average) who are reducing social contact and avoiding events where they feel unsafe. That is likely to continue whilst cases are high I would guess.
The trouble is case numbers now may not be that much higher than the endemic equilibrium. In which case the fear continues, in theory indefinitely.
Where are these fearful people of whom you write? They are certainly not here, in London, where people are behaving as normal, and getting on with their lives.
Well the comment I was responding to gave one such example right there. My parents still seem more fearful than makes sense (they've had their boosters too). I have a client - based just outside London - who will not meet face to face yet until she has had a booster, and I was speaking to a colleague in Geneva yesterday who was wearing a mask at her desk in the office and told me she is keeping clear of any crowded events (and their case rates are much lower than ours). The fear is definitely there. Bear in mind the people we see out and about in London are self-selecting. Logically you're not going to see those who are staying at home out in the streets.
I have been in the get back to normal camp for months but am constantly surprised my how many people aren't, and the only way we bring them onside is I think through the passage of time, and allowing this to fall out of the headlines.
I think the government, NHS and others need to have a big, big get back to normal campaign next spring. Millions of people are in danger of being permanently mentally scarred by this experience and will no longer fully take part in society because of a disease that we have already defeated with vaccines.
We really need to get away from the idea of freedom in theory. I think we're doing a good job through policy but now that needs to be extended to personal feelings. Win back the hearts and minds of the reluctant to experience freedom for real.
Surely the big story of the day is Virginia, not Owen Patterson
Proximately it strongly suggests swinging Republican gains in 2022, rendering Biden a lame duck who will do very little, making it easier for the GOP to retake the White House in 2024
Ultimately, it is much bigger than that. It is the first time a shrewd right winger has cleverly weaponised Wokeness as a stick to thwack the Left, and boy, it works. Voters loathe this race and gender bullshit
I see almost no reason why the Republicans can’t repeat this across America, and the Counter-Reformation could spread to Canada, Oz, and the UK.
I say ‘almost’ because Trump, of course. He is the one confounding factor. Republicans need him to disappear, even as they maintain their grip on his base. If they can do that, they could dominate elections for a decade, because the American Left is not getting any less insane, any time soon
Virginia also neatly answers that persistent question. “What is Wokeness?”. Wokeness is what lost the Virginia election for the Left
Certainly the GOP should retake the House next year on this swing at least.
However then they run into the problem of Trump being favoured nominee of their base again in 2024, in which case Biden won in 2020 as an inoffensive non wokeist to keep out Trump and could do so again.
On your broader point Zemmour in France is also rising in the polls next year on a relentlessly anti woke agenda (although he still narrowly trails Macron) and Boris and Morrison in the UK and Australia are both capable of playing the culture wars card when they need to.
Trudeau was re elected in September in Canada as a wokeist but failed to win a majority and again lost the popular vote to the Conservatives.
Electorally, while most people in the west want race and gender equality they do not want their history and culture trashed either, that is the key message of the GOP win in Virginia.
Wokeism may win in ultra liberal California (hence Meghan lives there) it doesn't much beyond that and university towns and the inner cities
It's becoming clear to me that GOP are clear favourites for 2024 if they are led by anyone other than Trump. With Trump I'm not quite so sure.
No because if they go back to Uniparty consensus, many Republicans won't vote for it. The ideal would be Trump policy agenda fronted by a nicer personality than Trump.
Does that person exist? Or would Trump's vanity allow him to pass the baton?
No and no. Trump is 100% going to run and will probably be President after the election, no matter the actual result, if the GOP control Congress.
This is the way the world ends, not with a bang but with a comb over.
Thanks @Alistair for steer yesterday on Virginia. Also @MrEd for previous detail on it. Never like to see a Republican win but a betting profit cushions it somewhat. Ages away but imo the GOP look pretty good for WH24 so long as they don't go with Donald Trump. Trouble is, they seem to need Donald Trump's permission not to go with Donald Trump. This is what they need to sort out. Not my team but I hope they do.
I too, as a poster on a politics site, cannot remember when Pat Buchannan stood on stage at the '92 GOP Convention and gave his famous "Culture War" speech and as a result I think "Wokeness" is some magical modern thing that the GOP have only just begun to cotton-on to.
Do you honestly not see how this new wave of Leftist agitation is on a completely different scale to anything we’ve seen before? And has much more profound and - to many - troubling implications?
I am amazed how many sane PB-ers don’t get it. They don’t even seem to comprehend there is an issue
There is an issue. Virginia shows I am right to keep ‘banging on about it’
"Do you honestly not see how this new wave of Leftist agitation is on a completely different scale to anything we’ve seen before? And has much more profound and - to many - troubling implications?"
The ghosts of Andreas Baader and Ulrike Meinhof both say hi!
Anyone who thinks Woke ‘isn’t an issue’ in the UK should watch this. From this morning
‘How awful this was to listen to. Students are possessed with Salem-style levels of hysteria. Where are the ones who say "hang on, guys, this is just wrong?" What a cowardly country. Shameful.’
There are nutters on both extremes of woke and anti woke, so sure it is an issue. Just a very minor one in the big scheme of things compared to the economy, environment, healthcare, international co-operation, housing, policing etc.
Anyhoo, if I were an enterprising soul who is disgusted by this behaviour by Paterson and the Tory Party I might be tempted to raise a criminal complaint to the police over Paterson's behaviour.
Here in the US I’d say almost as big a story as Virginia is the New Jersey governor race. It’s still too close to call, with confusion as to exactly what proportion of absentee and early ballots (which would favour the Democratic candidate) are yet to be counted. I’d say that almost certainly Phil Murphy, the Democrat, will be re-elected but it really should not have been anything as close as this for the Democrats to take comfort in ultimately winning.
As to the campaign, while Murphy’s ads primarily went for the suburban woman vote, casting the Republican, Jack Ciattarelli as being not only anti-abortion but anti-birth control. Ciattarelli‘s ads on the other hand ruthlessly focused on taxation. They had a sound bite of Murphy saying “if tax rates are a problem for you, we’re not the state for you”.
So it’s not just woke vs anti-woke, good old fashioned tax and spend is still up there too.
I too, as a poster on a politics site, cannot remember when Pat Buchannan stood on stage at the '92 GOP Convention and gave his famous "Culture War" speech and as a result I think "Wokeness" is some magical modern thing that the GOP have only just begun to cotton-on to.
Do you honestly not see how this new wave of Leftist agitation is on a completely different scale to anything we’ve seen before? And has much more profound and - to many - troubling implications?
I am amazed how many sane PB-ers don’t get it. They don’t even seem to comprehend there is an issue
There is an issue. Virginia shows I am right to keep ‘banging on about it’
I agree with you wholeheartedly that this is a massive issue, indeed an insult to liberalism as it rows back from science and reason that partly define liberals. I see it as a new puritanism - this time a product of post-modernism (non) thinking.
But you, more than anyone, has dragged the gruesome term "woke" from it's true meaning (which is bad enough) and buttered it all over the rantings of the far-left. This is not productive - it is indeed off-putting even to me who is on your side.
We need to tackle each issue head on on its merits because rationality and logic are on our side. No-one in the real world uses the term "woke" (even as you define it). I've never heard anyone say it. But they are aware of the effects of cancel culture, character assassination etc caused by the social media antics of far left cohorts (which almost amount to a form of terrorism in my view) - the biggest and most troubling issue, which extends it from being a niche issue to a mainstream one, is the leeching into corporations and other large institutions.
Whilst the psychotic, mendacious loons are in a tiny tiny minority, they are unfortunately disproportionally present in positions of influence, including (especially) the public sector and the media.
It’s just a word. A short, simple word - with some handy iterations - which summarises this whole phenomenon. I suppose I could say ‘the whole new wave of Leftist agitation that obsesses over gender, racial and other identities to the detriment of fundamental freedoms’ but that’s quite a mouthful and it’s just easier to say Woke.
And we all know what it is, now. It’s what lost the Virginia election for the Democrats
Btw if you have a handy alternative to ‘Woke’ I am happy to use it. It’s not the word that matters
I have heard of precisely zero people IRL agitating for another lockdown. Yes, I know, dovish London etc etc etc – I realise that other areas are different. But is there anywhere in the UK where people are clinging to their homes, praying that the government soon forces everyone to stay inside? Really? I just can't believe that.I hew heard of precisely zero people ITL agitating for another lockdown. Yes, I know, dovish London etc etc etc – I realise that other areas are different. But is there anywhere in the UK where people are clinging to their homes, praying that the government soon forces everyone to stay inside? Really? I just can't believe that.
Agree, I don't think people are agitating for a lockdown. And we shouldn't need one, unless we get some new and nasty variant.
But, I do know people (older/more vulnerable on average) who are reducing social contact and avoiding events where they feel unsafe. That is likely to continue whilst cases are high I would guess.
The trouble is case numbers now may not be that much higher than the endemic equilibrium. In which case the fear continues, in theory indefinitely.
Where are these fearful people of whom you write? They are certainly not here, in London, where people are behaving as normal, and getting on with their lives.
Obviously you won't see the fearful people, because they will be at home.
You would hear of them though! And work with them (remotely). Yet I can think of precisely zero. I do have one colleague who is more hawkish on masks etc, but even she goes out and fraternises, so it's not clear to me where Team Fear are hiding, or if they exist at all.
Underground and London buses running at 70-80% of pre-pandemic capacity on the weekend.
The commuter stuff may be a shift to working from home which arguably is as much convenience for workers as fear of COVID.
But presumably people going out on public transport less at weekend is a sign of people being concerned about covid.
I like to think that my wife and my reticence about going anywhere unmasked when near other people is precisely because
1) We don't want to catch it from carefree younger people, and 2) We don't want another lockdown either.
The big problem we have is an upcoming funeral in 2 weeks in England. Do we wear a mask when inside for the reception? or go home after the incineration?
Davey lad, sensible idea is keep a bit of distance. The face coverings might offer slight protection if someone coughs or sneezes close to you. Never happened to me I have to say that I remember, if the virus is in the air then the face covering offers no protection at all. You are much more likely to catch virus from the air, indoor.
A little request to the proprietor to keep some windows open might be much more effective improving your personal safety.
Shutdown policies have nothing to do with people wearing face coverings, as the job retention policies and SEISS grants are now history, further shutdowns are unlikely, they only held due to huge bribes.
Surely the big story of the day is Virginia, not Owen Patterson
Proximately it strongly suggests swinging Republican gains in 2022, rendering Biden a lame duck who will do very little, making it easier for the GOP to retake the White House in 2024
Ultimately, it is much bigger than that. It is the first time a shrewd right winger has cleverly weaponised Wokeness as a stick to thwack the Left, and boy, it works. Voters loathe this race and gender bullshit
I see almost no reason why the Republicans can’t repeat this across America, and the Counter-Reformation could spread to Canada, Oz, and the UK.
I say ‘almost’ because Trump, of course. He is the one confounding factor. Republicans need him to disappear, even as they maintain their grip on his base. If they can do that, they could dominate elections for a decade, because the American Left is not getting any less insane, any time soon
Virginia also neatly answers that persistent question. “What is Wokeness?”. Wokeness is what lost the Virginia election for the Left
Except that "wokeness" as is happening in America like many such culture wars just doesn't apply in the UK.
Last year some responded to the Black Lives Matter movement by saying "OK fair enough to protest American police violence but we don't have that issue in this country" which is right. We equally don't have this "wokeness" of which you are completely dogmatically obsessed about either. It swings both ways.
We have enough issues of our own to worry about, without transplanting American culture wars into the UK.
lol. I’m ‘dogmatically obsessed’ with Wokeness. Ok. Whatever.
You and others keep telling me it’s trivial, not an issue, just new ways of being polite. Yada yaddddda. Well here it is winning a dramatic and important election, and crippling a U.S. president. Wokeness is not trivial, it is huge
On your other point I tend to agree. The UK is not so deeply sunk in the Culture War as America, but we are certainly heading in the same direction. See our endless pointless ranting arguments about statue-toppling and trans rights. We do not have the poisoned racial debate of America, thank God, but in other ways we are even worse than them (the trans-TERF war is nastier in Britain)
Ironically the best way for Britain to avoid America’s fate is for us to keep electing moderate Tories, who will stand firm against the wilder lunacies
"Moderate" Tory MPs are about to end independent oversight of their colleagues' behaviour, are set to back plans to make it harder to vote in elections, support making public protest illegal and believe the government should be beyond judicial scrutiny. But at least we get to protect statues of people who made fortunes from slavery. Phew!
This is what I find crazy. Yes, "wokeism" is illiberal and there are a handful of unfair firings from academia. But such a mentality is clearly nowhere near taking control of the main left wing party. Meanwhile the Republicans incited an attack on the US seat of government, actively fought efforts to deal with a pandemic that has killed half a million Americans, are electing conspiracy theorists to control elections. Yet it's the left that are the main problem? It is bonkers.
Anyone who thinks Woke ‘isn’t an issue’ in the UK should watch this. From this morning
‘How awful this was to listen to. Students are possessed with Salem-style levels of hysteria. Where are the ones who say "hang on, guys, this is just wrong?" What a cowardly country. Shameful.’
There are nutters on both extremes of woke and anti woke, so sure it is an issue. Just a very minor one in the big scheme of things compared to the economy, environment, healthcare, international co-operation, housing, policing etc.
It’s not minor.
But I give up. PB is determined to ignore it. Fair enough
But watch this space. Woke might get Trump re-elected. Think on that
Anyone who thinks Woke ‘isn’t an issue’ in the UK should watch this. From this morning
‘How awful this was to listen to. Students are possessed with Salem-style levels of hysteria. Where are the ones who say "hang on, guys, this is just wrong?" What a cowardly country. Shameful.’
There are nutters on both extremes of woke and anti woke, so sure it is an issue. Just a very minor one in the big scheme of things compared to the economy, environment, healthcare, international co-operation, housing, policing etc.
It’s not minor.
But I give up. PB is determined to ignore it. Fair enough
But watch this space. Woke might get Trump re-elected. Think on that
I have tipped him up consistently since Jan 2021 and will win a fair amount if he does, although very much hope he loses.
Surely the big story of the day is Virginia, not Owen Patterson
Proximately it strongly suggests swinging Republican gains in 2022, rendering Biden a lame duck who will do very little, making it easier for the GOP to retake the White House in 2024
Ultimately, it is much bigger than that. It is the first time a shrewd right winger has cleverly weaponised Wokeness as a stick to thwack the Left, and boy, it works. Voters loathe this race and gender bullshit
I see almost no reason why the Republicans can’t repeat this across America, and the Counter-Reformation could spread to Canada, Oz, and the UK.
I say ‘almost’ because Trump, of course. He is the one confounding factor. Republicans need him to disappear, even as they maintain their grip on his base. If they can do that, they could dominate elections for a decade, because the American Left is not getting any less insane, any time soon
Virginia also neatly answers that persistent question. “What is Wokeness?”. Wokeness is what lost the Virginia election for the Left
Except that "wokeness" as is happening in America like many such culture wars just doesn't apply in the UK.
Last year some responded to the Black Lives Matter movement by saying "OK fair enough to protest American police violence but we don't have that issue in this country" which is right. We equally don't have this "wokeness" of which you are completely dogmatically obsessed about either. It swings both ways.
We have enough issues of our own to worry about, without transplanting American culture wars into the UK.
lol. I’m ‘dogmatically obsessed’ with Wokeness. Ok. Whatever.
You and others keep telling me it’s trivial, not an issue, just new ways of being polite. Yada yaddddda. Well here it is winning a dramatic and important election, and crippling a U.S. president. Wokeness is not trivial, it is huge
On your other point I tend to agree. The UK is not so deeply sunk in the Culture War as America, but we are certainly heading in the same direction. See our endless pointless ranting arguments about statue-toppling and trans rights. We do not have the poisoned racial debate of America, thank God, but in other ways we are even worse than them (the trans-TERF war is nastier in Britain)
Ironically the best way for Britain to avoid America’s fate is for us to keep electing moderate Tories, who will stand firm against the wilder lunacies
"Moderate" Tory MPs are about to end independent oversight of their colleagues' behaviour, are set to back plans to make it harder to vote in elections, support making public protest illegal and believe the government should be beyond judicial scrutiny. But at least we get to protect statues of people who made fortunes from slavery. Phew!
This is what I find crazy. Yes, "wokeism" is illiberal and there are a handful of unfair firings from academia. But such a mentality is clearly nowhere near taking control of the main left wing party. Meanwhile the Republicans incited an attack on the US seat of government, actively fought efforts to deal with a pandemic that has killed half a million Americans, are electing conspiracy theorists to control elections. Yet it's the left that are the main problem? It is bonkers.
Well put. And when only 41% of Republican voters believe that the votes are actually counted correctly when it is their party who is responsible for most voter suppression and undermining the system you have a society that is just fragmenting before our eyes. It is a warning to us all.
Surely the big story of the day is Virginia, not Owen Patterson
Proximately it strongly suggests swinging Republican gains in 2022, rendering Biden a lame duck who will do very little, making it easier for the GOP to retake the White House in 2024
Ultimately, it is much bigger than that. It is the first time a shrewd right winger has cleverly weaponised Wokeness as a stick to thwack the Left, and boy, it works. Voters loathe this race and gender bullshit
I see almost no reason why the Republicans can’t repeat this across America, and the Counter-Reformation could spread to Canada, Oz, and the UK.
I say ‘almost’ because Trump, of course. He is the one confounding factor. Republicans need him to disappear, even as they maintain their grip on his base. If they can do that, they could dominate elections for a decade, because the American Left is not getting any less insane, any time soon
Virginia also neatly answers that persistent question. “What is Wokeness?”. Wokeness is what lost the Virginia election for the Left
Except that "wokeness" as is happening in America like many such culture wars just doesn't apply in the UK.
Last year some responded to the Black Lives Matter movement by saying "OK fair enough to protest American police violence but we don't have that issue in this country" which is right. We equally don't have this "wokeness" of which you are completely dogmatically obsessed about either. It swings both ways.
We have enough issues of our own to worry about, without transplanting American culture wars into the UK.
lol. I’m ‘dogmatically obsessed’ with Wokeness. Ok. Whatever.
You and others keep telling me it’s trivial, not an issue, just new ways of being polite. Yada yaddddda. Well here it is winning a dramatic and important election, and crippling a U.S. president. Wokeness is not trivial, it is huge
On your other point I tend to agree. The UK is not so deeply sunk in the Culture War as America, but we are certainly heading in the same direction. See our endless pointless ranting arguments about statue-toppling and trans rights. We do not have the poisoned racial debate of America, thank God, but in other ways we are even worse than them (the trans-TERF war is nastier in Britain)
Ironically the best way for Britain to avoid America’s fate is for us to keep electing moderate Tories, who will stand firm against the wilder lunacies
"Moderate" Tory MPs are about to end independent oversight of their colleagues' behaviour, are set to back plans to make it harder to vote in elections, support making public protest illegal and believe the government should be beyond judicial scrutiny. But at least we get to protect statues of people who made fortunes from slavery. Phew!
This is what I find crazy. Yes, "wokeism" is illiberal and there are a handful of unfair firings from academia. But such a mentality is clearly nowhere near taking control of the main left wing party. Meanwhile the Republicans incited an attack on the US seat of government, actively fought efforts to deal with a pandemic that has killed half a million Americans, are electing conspiracy theorists to control elections. Yet it's the left that are the main problem? It is bonkers.
Yes, and I find the enthusiasm from @MrEd and @HYUFD and others to give Trump a second bite of the cherry and forgive and forget January 6th 2021 all the more disturbing.
Anyone who thinks Woke ‘isn’t an issue’ in the UK should watch this. From this morning
‘How awful this was to listen to. Students are possessed with Salem-style levels of hysteria. Where are the ones who say "hang on, guys, this is just wrong?" What a cowardly country. Shameful.’
There are nutters on both extremes of woke and anti woke, so sure it is an issue. Just a very minor one in the big scheme of things compared to the economy, environment, healthcare, international co-operation, housing, policing etc.
It’s not minor.
But I give up. PB is determined to ignore it. Fair enough
But watch this space. Woke might get Trump re-elected. Think on that
I have tipped him up consistently since Jan 2021 and will win a fair amount if he does, although very much hope he loses.
I dread the idea of a 2nd Trump presidency. He’s a dangerous maniac who could cancel American democracy
Luckily, American voters sense this. They really don’t want to vote for him. My fear is that the Democrats will lurch ever further to the Left, double down on Wokery, and then in despair US voters will see Trump as the lesser of two evils
Surely the big story of the day is Virginia, not Owen Patterson
Proximately it strongly suggests swinging Republican gains in 2022, rendering Biden a lame duck who will do very little, making it easier for the GOP to retake the White House in 2024
Ultimately, it is much bigger than that. It is the first time a shrewd right winger has cleverly weaponised Wokeness as a stick to thwack the Left, and boy, it works. Voters loathe this race and gender bullshit
I see almost no reason why the Republicans can’t repeat this across America, and the Counter-Reformation could spread to Canada, Oz, and the UK.
I say ‘almost’ because Trump, of course. He is the one confounding factor. Republicans need him to disappear, even as they maintain their grip on his base. If they can do that, they could dominate elections for a decade, because the American Left is not getting any less insane, any time soon
Virginia also neatly answers that persistent question. “What is Wokeness?”. Wokeness is what lost the Virginia election for the Left
Still some room for democracy to be fortified today.
Surely the big story of the day is Virginia, not Owen Patterson
Proximately it strongly suggests swinging Republican gains in 2022, rendering Biden a lame duck who will do very little, making it easier for the GOP to retake the White House in 2024
Ultimately, it is much bigger than that. It is the first time a shrewd right winger has cleverly weaponised Wokeness as a stick to thwack the Left, and boy, it works. Voters loathe this race and gender bullshit
I see almost no reason why the Republicans can’t repeat this across America, and the Counter-Reformation could spread to Canada, Oz, and the UK.
I say ‘almost’ because Trump, of course. He is the one confounding factor. Republicans need him to disappear, even as they maintain their grip on his base. If they can do that, they could dominate elections for a decade, because the American Left is not getting any less insane, any time soon
Virginia also neatly answers that persistent question. “What is Wokeness?”. Wokeness is what lost the Virginia election for the Left
Except that "wokeness" as is happening in America like many such culture wars just doesn't apply in the UK.
Last year some responded to the Black Lives Matter movement by saying "OK fair enough to protest American police violence but we don't have that issue in this country" which is right. We equally don't have this "wokeness" of which you are completely dogmatically obsessed about either. It swings both ways.
We have enough issues of our own to worry about, without transplanting American culture wars into the UK.
lol. I’m ‘dogmatically obsessed’ with Wokeness. Ok. Whatever.
You and others keep telling me it’s trivial, not an issue, just new ways of being polite. Yada yaddddda. Well here it is winning a dramatic and important election, and crippling a U.S. president. Wokeness is not trivial, it is huge
On your other point I tend to agree. The UK is not so deeply sunk in the Culture War as America, but we are certainly heading in the same direction. See our endless pointless ranting arguments about statue-toppling and trans rights. We do not have the poisoned racial debate of America, thank God, but in other ways we are even worse than them (the trans-TERF war is nastier in Britain)
Ironically the best way for Britain to avoid America’s fate is for us to keep electing moderate Tories, who will stand firm against the wilder lunacies
"Moderate" Tory MPs are about to end independent oversight of their colleagues' behaviour, are set to back plans to make it harder to vote in elections, support making public protest illegal and believe the government should be beyond judicial scrutiny. But at least we get to protect statues of people who made fortunes from slavery. Phew!
This is what I find crazy. Yes, "wokeism" is illiberal and there are a handful of unfair firings from academia. But such a mentality is clearly nowhere near taking control of the main left wing party. Meanwhile the Republicans incited an attack on the US seat of government, actively fought efforts to deal with a pandemic that has killed half a million Americans, are electing conspiracy theorists to control elections. Yet it's the left that are the main problem? It is bonkers.
That was nearly a year ago. Nobody gives a fuck now.
I have heard of precisely zero people IRL agitating for another lockdown. Yes, I know, dovish London etc etc etc – I realise that other areas are different. But is there anywhere in the UK where people are clinging to their homes, praying that the government soon forces everyone to stay inside? Really? I just can't believe that.I hew heard of precisely zero people ITL agitating for another lockdown. Yes, I know, dovish London etc etc etc – I realise that other areas are different. But is there anywhere in the UK where people are clinging to their homes, praying that the government soon forces everyone to stay inside? Really? I just can't believe that.
Agree, I don't think people are agitating for a lockdown. And we shouldn't need one, unless we get some new and nasty variant.
But, I do know people (older/more vulnerable on average) who are reducing social contact and avoiding events where they feel unsafe. That is likely to continue whilst cases are high I would guess.
The trouble is case numbers now may not be that much higher than the endemic equilibrium. In which case the fear continues, in theory indefinitely.
Where are these fearful people of whom you write? They are certainly not here, in London, where people are behaving as normal, and getting on with their lives.
Obviously you won't see the fearful people, because they will be at home.
You would hear of them though! And work with them (remotely). Yet I can think of precisely zero. I do have one colleague who is more hawkish on masks etc, but even she goes out and fraternises, so it's not clear to me where Team Fear are hiding, or if they exist at all.
Underground and London buses running at 70-80% of pre-pandemic capacity on the weekend.
The commuter stuff may be a shift to working from home which arguably is as much convenience for workers as fear of COVID.
But presumably people going out on public transport less at weekend is a sign of people being concerned about covid.
Er... the vastly reduced volume of international tourists would probably account for most/all of that 20% weekend drop?!
Could be I guess, but I'd be surprised if it's just tourists. There are lots of other indicators that some people are still worried and changing their behaviour:
Anyone who thinks Woke ‘isn’t an issue’ in the UK should watch this. From this morning
‘How awful this was to listen to. Students are possessed with Salem-style levels of hysteria. Where are the ones who say "hang on, guys, this is just wrong?" What a cowardly country. Shameful.’
There are nutters on both extremes of woke and anti woke, so sure it is an issue. Just a very minor one in the big scheme of things compared to the economy, environment, healthcare, international co-operation, housing, policing etc.
It’s not minor.
But I give up. PB is determined to ignore it. Fair enough
But watch this space. Woke might get Trump re-elected. Think on that
Here's a question, how many times have you posted about the Azeem Rafiq story?
When the tellers announce the result this is how it should be announced.
Are you disappointed to see Jeremy Hunt supporting this?
Very much so.
I think Hunt is very capable, but I'm always puzzled when he's held up as a bastion of integrity. Does no one remember his time as culture secretary?
I'd have him inside the tent, but for a combination of being able to take his counsel and keep a good eye on him.
He backed remain.
I'm not getting your point - are you saying that remainers are willing to ignore his faults because he voted remain? I was a remainer and I don't think Hunt is particularly virtuous (neither do I think Corbyn is and he also, allegedly, voted remain).
Apologies if I'm missing your point, I'd like to understand it.
Surely the big story of the day is Virginia, not Owen Patterson
Proximately it strongly suggests swinging Republican gains in 2022, rendering Biden a lame duck who will do very little, making it easier for the GOP to retake the White House in 2024
Ultimately, it is much bigger than that. It is the first time a shrewd right winger has cleverly weaponised Wokeness as a stick to thwack the Left, and boy, it works. Voters loathe this race and gender bullshit
I see almost no reason why the Republicans can’t repeat this across America, and the Counter-Reformation could spread to Canada, Oz, and the UK.
I say ‘almost’ because Trump, of course. He is the one confounding factor. Republicans need him to disappear, even as they maintain their grip on his base. If they can do that, they could dominate elections for a decade, because the American Left is not getting any less insane, any time soon
Virginia also neatly answers that persistent question. “What is Wokeness?”. Wokeness is what lost the Virginia election for the Left
Except that "wokeness" as is happening in America like many such culture wars just doesn't apply in the UK.
Last year some responded to the Black Lives Matter movement by saying "OK fair enough to protest American police violence but we don't have that issue in this country" which is right. We equally don't have this "wokeness" of which you are completely dogmatically obsessed about either. It swings both ways.
We have enough issues of our own to worry about, without transplanting American culture wars into the UK.
lol. I’m ‘dogmatically obsessed’ with Wokeness. Ok. Whatever.
You and others keep telling me it’s trivial, not an issue, just new ways of being polite. Yada yaddddda. Well here it is winning a dramatic and important election, and crippling a U.S. president. Wokeness is not trivial, it is huge
On your other point I tend to agree. The UK is not so deeply sunk in the Culture War as America, but we are certainly heading in the same direction. See our endless pointless ranting arguments about statue-toppling and trans rights. We do not have the poisoned racial debate of America, thank God, but in other ways we are even worse than them (the trans-TERF war is nastier in Britain)
Ironically the best way for Britain to avoid America’s fate is for us to keep electing moderate Tories, who will stand firm against the wilder lunacies
"Moderate" Tory MPs are about to end independent oversight of their colleagues' behaviour, are set to back plans to make it harder to vote in elections, support making public protest illegal and believe the government should be beyond judicial scrutiny. But at least we get to protect statues of people who made fortunes from slavery. Phew!
This is what I find crazy. Yes, "wokeism" is illiberal and there are a handful of unfair firings from academia. But such a mentality is clearly nowhere near taking control of the main left wing party. Meanwhile the Republicans incited an attack on the US seat of government, actively fought efforts to deal with a pandemic that has killed half a million Americans, are electing conspiracy theorists to control elections. Yet it's the left that are the main problem? It is bonkers.
Yes, and I find the enthusiasm from @MrEd and @HYUFD and others to give Trump a second bite of the cherry and forgive and forget January 6th 2021 all the more disturbing.
Not only that, but they are already pre-justifying the stealing of the 2024 election by a Republican House. The term "fascist" is overused by the left, but this new evolution of the Republicans seem to be fairly described by it.
Though as we can see from last night, the problem is the general public seem to have a hair trigger sensitivity to extremism on the left, and easily willing to overlook front and center extremism on the right. I don't know if this is just human nature (scared more by extremist change than extremist defence of the status quo), a product of latent racism (rioting black people provoke much more a response than rioting white people), or the effects of right wing media (which can quickly message away right wing problems and blow up minor left wing problems).
Either way it is deeply scary. The US may not be a democracy in five years.
Surely the big story of the day is Virginia, not Owen Patterson
Proximately it strongly suggests swinging Republican gains in 2022, rendering Biden a lame duck who will do very little, making it easier for the GOP to retake the White House in 2024
Ultimately, it is much bigger than that. It is the first time a shrewd right winger has cleverly weaponised Wokeness as a stick to thwack the Left, and boy, it works. Voters loathe this race and gender bullshit
I see almost no reason why the Republicans can’t repeat this across America, and the Counter-Reformation could spread to Canada, Oz, and the UK.
I say ‘almost’ because Trump, of course. He is the one confounding factor. Republicans need him to disappear, even as they maintain their grip on his base. If they can do that, they could dominate elections for a decade, because the American Left is not getting any less insane, any time soon
Virginia also neatly answers that persistent question. “What is Wokeness?”. Wokeness is what lost the Virginia election for the Left
Except that "wokeness" as is happening in America like many such culture wars just doesn't apply in the UK.
Last year some responded to the Black Lives Matter movement by saying "OK fair enough to protest American police violence but we don't have that issue in this country" which is right. We equally don't have this "wokeness" of which you are completely dogmatically obsessed about either. It swings both ways.
We have enough issues of our own to worry about, without transplanting American culture wars into the UK.
lol. I’m ‘dogmatically obsessed’ with Wokeness. Ok. Whatever.
You and others keep telling me it’s trivial, not an issue, just new ways of being polite. Yada yaddddda. Well here it is winning a dramatic and important election, and crippling a U.S. president. Wokeness is not trivial, it is huge
On your other point I tend to agree. The UK is not so deeply sunk in the Culture War as America, but we are certainly heading in the same direction. See our endless pointless ranting arguments about statue-toppling and trans rights. We do not have the poisoned racial debate of America, thank God, but in other ways we are even worse than them (the trans-TERF war is nastier in Britain)
Ironically the best way for Britain to avoid America’s fate is for us to keep electing moderate Tories, who will stand firm against the wilder lunacies
"Moderate" Tory MPs are about to end independent oversight of their colleagues' behaviour, are set to back plans to make it harder to vote in elections, support making public protest illegal and believe the government should be beyond judicial scrutiny. But at least we get to protect statues of people who made fortunes from slavery. Phew!
This is what I find crazy. Yes, "wokeism" is illiberal and there are a handful of unfair firings from academia. But such a mentality is clearly nowhere near taking control of the main left wing party. Meanwhile the Republicans incited an attack on the US seat of government, actively fought efforts to deal with a pandemic that has killed half a million Americans, are electing conspiracy theorists to control elections. Yet it's the left that are the main problem? It is bonkers.
That was nearly a year ago. Nobody gives a fuck now.
Surely the big story of the day is Virginia, not Owen Patterson
Proximately it strongly suggests swinging Republican gains in 2022, rendering Biden a lame duck who will do very little, making it easier for the GOP to retake the White House in 2024
Ultimately, it is much bigger than that. It is the first time a shrewd right winger has cleverly weaponised Wokeness as a stick to thwack the Left, and boy, it works. Voters loathe this race and gender bullshit
I see almost no reason why the Republicans can’t repeat this across America, and the Counter-Reformation could spread to Canada, Oz, and the UK.
I say ‘almost’ because Trump, of course. He is the one confounding factor. Republicans need him to disappear, even as they maintain their grip on his base. If they can do that, they could dominate elections for a decade, because the American Left is not getting any less insane, any time soon
Virginia also neatly answers that persistent question. “What is Wokeness?”. Wokeness is what lost the Virginia election for the Left
Still some room for democracy to be fortified today.
Wrong about Trump because the working Republican voter loves his policy and so Trump's popularity among the base is huge. No other Republican politician at present comes close to that.
Angela Raynor doing pretty well. Boris on a self made sticky wicket. He's moving around in the crease trying to throw her off her length but its a struggle.
I have heard of precisely zero people IRL agitating for another lockdown. Yes, I know, dovish London etc etc etc – I realise that other areas are different. But is there anywhere in the UK where people are clinging to their homes, praying that the government soon forces everyone to stay inside? Really? I just can't believe that.I hew heard of precisely zero people ITL agitating for another lockdown. Yes, I know, dovish London etc etc etc – I realise that other areas are different. But is there anywhere in the UK where people are clinging to their homes, praying that the government soon forces everyone to stay inside? Really? I just can't believe that.
Agree, I don't think people are agitating for a lockdown. And we shouldn't need one, unless we get some new and nasty variant.
But, I do know people (older/more vulnerable on average) who are reducing social contact and avoiding events where they feel unsafe. That is likely to continue whilst cases are high I would guess.
The trouble is case numbers now may not be that much higher than the endemic equilibrium. In which case the fear continues, in theory indefinitely.
I think people would adjust their expectations if case numbers stay stable.
But I'm sceptical an endemic equilibrium would be at this level... ONS thinks 1 in 50 have it or over 1m have COVID right now. Unless reinfections become much more common, how can we stay at this level?
We have found 9m cases in the UK... so surely at least 20m-30m have actually had COVID by now. And over 90% have antibodies.
One of those Twitter scientists / statisticians did a rough calculation based on immunity waning at a particular - not particularly rapid - rate, assuming one booster per year and current levels of vaccine efficacy, and concluded that in endemic state each of us should expect to catch it roughly once every 6 years. In a population of 65-70 million people that would mean around 11 million getting it each year / 365 = 30,000 new cases per day. No all of those would be tested and diagnosed of course, but it just shows how
So that's the thing: if you look at the dashboard and it's saying 30,000 new cases (and say 600 hospitalisations and 100+ deaths every day) it means you're only likely to catch the thing once every 6 years - and unlikely to be hospitalised with it in your lifetime.
Prevalence levels of endemic rhinoviruses and common cold COVs mean if we tested for them we'd have positives of several hundred k every day in the winter months, possibly more than a million in peak season.
It's hard to put case numbers in context given the sheer scale of the UK population.
Anyone who thinks Woke ‘isn’t an issue’ in the UK should watch this. From this morning
‘How awful this was to listen to. Students are possessed with Salem-style levels of hysteria. Where are the ones who say "hang on, guys, this is just wrong?" What a cowardly country. Shameful.’
Your last post in reply to me was rather different to what you were saying before. You (less so I'd admit than others) seemed to think it was cut and dry re the French fisherman and now you doubt a report re Patterson. yet as usual with many on this site they are convinced one way or another on topics without having the indepth knowledge of the circumstances. At least now you accept if they can proved prima facia evidence they may actually have a case. I wish others would do the same rather than just assuming they must be in the wrong.
I found it amazing that people like @MaxPB got himself so emotional about me just for even suggesting that they MAY have a case. I don't even know if they do, but that is the point none of us know.
So here are two examples, analogous to the log book argument that were put by others that they used to prove the French were in the wrong, which shows that type of argument is flawed
a) When you go in and out of the EU now your passport is stamped so as to determine whether you have exceeded the 90/180 limit. A woman from the UK left Spain and the passport wasn't stamped. When she returned she was denied entry (and presumably there are other consequences eg tax) because she was deemed to have overstayed her welcome. Now it is blindingly obvious she left, after all she is flying in from the UK so she must have left and she can provided lots of other evidence but the Spanish are being pillocks about it (there you go @MaxPB an anti EU story from me).
Do you know how flexible Jersey is being? I don't. As with the log books the passport is something you should be able to rely on, but in this case can't.
b) When you travel abroad you used to need a Day 2 test. You apply for one from the Govt list, but it turns out a lot of the suppliers are either crooks or incompetent and don't send them. However they do send you the code you need for your Passenger Locator Form which you can't fill in until 48 hours before returning so you have no idea that the test won't arrive while you are away. On return you don't have a test and can't do one because you don't now have time and anyway the code for a new test will not tie up with the one on the PLF. I know two people for whom this applies. There must be thousands. The suppliers do not respond to calls or emails.
If these people ever need to prove they have complied they can't. But you would say but they had to. It is the rules. Chuck them in jail (or ban them from fishing).
It isn't a perfect world and things go wrong and flexibility should be shown rather than 'the rules are the rules' It is normally pretty easy to spot those trying it on.
My understanding re: the log books is that under the CFP the boats should have had positional GPS systems.
So if they can’t provide that data they were in breach of the CFP rules anyway.
My guess (and it is just a guess) is they were fishing illegally and over quota. They got away with it. And now they are in trouble - the best analogy I can think of it’s people who paid themselves through dividends to minimise their tax… and then found that the government wasn’t minded to help them on furlough.
Angela Raynor doing pretty well. Boris on a self made sticky wicket. He's moving around in the crease trying to throw her off her length but its a struggle.
Angela Rayner is making the most of an avoidable own goal
I'd also like to add, amidst all of the doom and gloom, the constant signal boosting of case numbers by the media and the lockdown forever scientists the UK public just shrugged it off. The October economic indicators are well up on September, particularly in services and specifically hospitality based services.
We could, at some point in the next 2-3 weeks, have recovered all of the lost COVID GDP. What's even better is that the predicted slowdown for Q4 hasn't materialised in any of the real time indices so we may end up overshooting the current growth projections and recover a lot more of the "lost growth potential" than is currently pencilled in. Right now we're about 5% below what would otherwise have occurred without COVID, government projections say we will make up 3% of that which then turns into our new baseline. The current level of economic activity and growth in activity is much larger than even the city consensus, there is now a plausible scenario where we recover all of the 5% and then add a bit more before returning to trend growth of ~1.8%.
I'm genuinely at a loss to explain it because as noted earlier, there are millions of people who are simply not participating in society. Potentially it could be the savings rate going up by a huge amount, but that's usually something which takes many years to feed through into the wider economy. It could also be the huge rise in disposable income for the middle class office worker who now has cut their commuting costs by 60-100%. I'm not sure how, but we could conceivably come out of the other side of this pandemic with an economy in better long term shape than when we entered. Some of that makes sense too, businesses have trimmed a lot of fat, output per worker is well up too and on average people who work are happier now than they were pre-pandemic because of flexible working hours.
Hats off to @stodge who did say at the end of last year that there would be a lot then unrealised net gains from this, I doubted him and tbh, I was wrong to do so!
Comments
Proximately it strongly suggests swinging Republican gains in 2022, rendering Biden a lame duck who will do very little, making it easier for the GOP to retake the White House in 2024
Ultimately, it is much bigger than that. It is the first time a shrewd right winger has cleverly weaponised Wokeness as a stick to thwack the Left, and boy, it works. Voters loathe this race and gender bullshit
I see almost no reason why the Republicans can’t repeat this across America, and the Counter-Reformation could spread to Canada, Oz, and the UK.
I say ‘almost’ because Trump, of course. He is the one confounding factor. Republicans need him to disappear, even as they maintain their grip on his base. If they can do that, they could dominate elections for a decade, because the American Left is not getting any less insane, any time soon
Virginia also neatly answers that persistent question. “What is Wokeness?”. Wokeness is what lost the Virginia election for the Left
Pip's thread header at the weekend said that even a "narrow" Dem win in Virginia would indicate the Republicans are on course to take the House and the Senate in the mid-terms, so I take it a GOP win in Virginia is indicating a GOP landslide next year?
https://www2.politicalbetting.com/index.php/archives/2021/10/30/last-stop-before-the-midterms-virginia-2021/
It should be a conscience vote for all concerned. And if as Sam Coates has written today even Labour MPs are troubled by this, then they should vote for the amendment too.
Last year some responded to the Black Lives Matter movement by saying "OK fair enough to protest American police violence but we don't have that issue in this country" which is right. We equally don't have this "wokeness" of which you are completely dogmatically obsessed about either. It swings both ways.
We have enough issues of our own to worry about, without transplanting American culture wars into the UK.
It's understandable that people will still be afraid, which is why we need leaders to lead and restore confidence. Johnson has no credibility with her to do this, and the political leaders that she might listen to are emphasising the residual peril.
I am hoping to take her to Bath in December to visit my daughter, and to do a couple of things here in November as a warm-up, to ease her back into a realisation that things are better now with the evidence of experience.
Who would be qualified to hear such an appeal? Obviously the government itself should not be that body.
https://tinyurl.com/8p25yc6y
In the US, the horror is that this might provide a route back for Trump and I have an awful feeling that we may end up watching the proverbial slow-motion car-crash that would be his re-election. Just imagine. Can the Republicans make a grotesque narcissist like that disappear if he doesn't want to? Really?
Leaves on the line. Not a funny excuse as the media have portrayed it.
Any Tory MP who doesn't enrich themselves, their family and friends will look back on this time with wistful regret at a missed opportunity.
Driver applies brakes well before the signal
Driver applies emergency brakes before the signal
Emergency systems apply their additional emergency brakes as it passes the signal
And the train just keeps on going..
On the upside, as everything is recorded at least the driver is shown to not be at fault.
However then they run into the problem of Trump being favoured nominee of their base again in 2024, in which case Biden won in 2020 as an inoffensive non wokeist to keep out Trump and could do so again.
On your broader point Zemmour in France is also rising in the polls next year on a relentlessly anti woke agenda (although he still narrowly trails Macron) and Boris and Morrison in the UK and Australia are both capable of playing the culture wars card when they need to.
Trudeau was re elected in September in Canada as a wokeist but failed to win a majority and again lost the popular vote to the Conservatives.
Electorally, while most people in the west want race and gender equality they do not want their history and culture trashed either, that is the key message of the GOP win in Virginia.
Wokeism may win in ultra liberal California (hence Meghan lives there) it doesn't much beyond that and university towns and the inner cities
The government believes the rules do not apply to themselves. Or more specifically that they are flawless and do not make bad decisions, so any finding that to the reverse must itself be wrong.
We saw the absurdity of the Home Secretary being found to have broken the Ministerial Code by bullying, overturned by the PM. Allegations the PM was in breach over wallpapergate where Number 10 confirmed that if he was found to be in breach, he would overturn that ruling. Where ministers are directly accused by the speaker of repeated breaches of the ministerial code flat out ignored.
And now this. Investigated by the Independent body. Found in breech, that finding peer-reviewed and validated by Tory MPs. And they still want to overturn it.
*At the moment this makes no difference to polling. People have decided that they have had enough of experts and that means faceless busybodies in our own parliament bullying innocents like Priti Patel. So they can just ignore the rules knowing they have cover for this from their voters.
It isn't good. We can't have a polity where the rules can be ignored, overruled and discarded because the government don't like being caught doing wrong. In the past this would not even be a debate - name me any other Tory PM who would be doing this. Its just the current PM with his notoriously lax personal morals who has brought that into government as policy.
...21. The lobbying rules also provide for Members to release themselves from the restrictions, and thereby resolve any conflict of interest, by repaying any sums received within the relevant time limits:
A Member can free him or herself immediately of any restrictions due to a past benefit by repaying the full value of any benefit received from the outside person or organisation in the preceding six month period....
I have been in the get back to normal camp for months but am constantly surprised my how many people aren't, and the only way we bring them onside is I think through the passage of time, and allowing this to fall out of the headlines.
But I'm sceptical an endemic equilibrium would be at this level... ONS thinks 1 in 50 have it or over 1m have COVID right now. Unless reinfections become much more common, how can we stay at this level?
We have found 9m cases in the UK... so surely at least 20m-30m have actually had COVID by now. And over 90% have antibodies.
You and others keep telling me it’s trivial, not an issue, just new ways of being polite. Yada yaddddda. Well here it is winning a dramatic and important election, and crippling a U.S. president. Wokeness is not trivial, it is huge
On your other point I tend to agree. The UK is not so deeply sunk in the Culture War as America, but we are certainly heading in the same direction. See our endless pointless ranting arguments about statue-toppling and trans rights. We do not have the poisoned racial debate of America, thank God, but in other ways we are even worse than them (the trans-TERF war is nastier in Britain)
Ironically the best way for Britain to avoid America’s fate is for us to keep electing moderate Tories, who will stand firm against the wilder lunacies
https://voicesofdemocracy.umd.edu/buchanan-culture-war-speech-speech-text/
Technically the Dems were probably right, in spirit the Republicans are right. Wokeness IS infesting the US education system. Voters hate it. The GOP won
That you don't know of any in your social circle is random chance.
Underground and London buses running at 70-80% of pre-pandemic capacity on the weekend.
The commuter stuff may be a shift to working from home which arguably is as much convenience for workers as fear of COVID.
But presumably people going out on public transport less at weekend is a sign of people being concerned about covid.
I am amazed how many sane PB-ers don’t get it. They don’t even seem to comprehend there is an issue
There is an issue. Virginia shows I am right to keep ‘banging on about it’
1) We don't want to catch it from carefree younger people, and
2) We don't want another lockdown either.
The big problem we have is an upcoming funeral in 2 weeks in England. Do we wear a mask when inside for the reception? or go home after the incineration?
Lobbying is not wrong in itself. Obvs it can be pure conspiracy to corrupt and defraud for personal gain; but lobbying can and does vary from pure corruption to a desire to improve maternity services and the care of mothers and babies, support the starving, and everything in between.
In the actual world the people who get stuff done, create wealth and are change makers are rarely pure and simple in their motives. The political process is central to oiling the wheels that make such things possible and profitable.
The voter takes a wary, cautious and realistic view of the entire process.
The point is surely that now swing voters are looking at how much further the Democrats have lurched in the last 30 years, and now they don't like it? It's difficult to pinpoint exactly at what point the needle swung on this issue, but it's starting to become clear that it has swung. And it's undoubtedly the case that the Right (both in the US and the UK, and presumably elsewhere) have not been particularly focused on this issue for most of the intervening period.
I'd have him inside the tent, but for a combination of being able to take his counsel and keep a good eye on him.
Does that person exist? Or would Trump's vanity allow him to pass the baton?
Many Buchanan supporters also voted for Perot in the general election, helping Bill Clinton get elected by splitting the conservative vote despite Clinton getting only 43% of the popular vote.
Buchanan was mainly a reaction to the liberal counterculture that began in the 1960s (see also Phyllis Schlafly), now wokeism is being met equally by a conservative counter reaction
This is the most up to date figures I can find. Most of the other media seem to be on 84%. It always seems odd to me how the US seems to lose interest in its election results after a day or so, even when there is no result at all.
But you, more than anyone, has dragged the gruesome term "woke" from it's true meaning (which is bad enough) and buttered it all over the rantings of the far-left. This is not productive - it is indeed off-putting even to me who is on your side.
We need to tackle each issue head on on its merits because rationality and logic are on our side. No-one in the real world uses the term "woke" (even as you define it). I've never heard anyone say it. But they are aware of the effects of cancel culture, character assassination etc caused by the social media antics of far left cohorts (which almost amount to a form of terrorism in my view) - the biggest and most troubling issue, which extends it from being a niche issue to a mainstream one, is the leeching into corporations and other large institutions.
Whilst the psychotic, mendacious loons are in a tiny tiny minority, they are unfortunately disproportionally present in positions of influence, including (especially) the public sector and the media.
If he gets found guilty there then fair enough!
‘How awful this was to listen to. Students are possessed with Salem-style levels of hysteria. Where are the ones who say "hang on, guys, this is just wrong?" What a cowardly country. Shameful.’
https://twitter.com/charlottecgill/status/1455858027169472514?s=21
The madness is here too, tho it has metastasized.
Does that answer your question ?
Well, there wasn't really (despite it being a nice day) and it ended up with about 60 people in a stuffy room with one door open to the outside (and that only because I propped it open).
Most people there looked pretty nervous - in the way of most funerals a large proportion of the people there were of retirement age - but once you are in it gets rather difficult to just leave. As there were nibbles, nobody was masked (not that this would have made a jot of difference given the lack of air circulation).
It remains the riskiest environment I've been anywhere near since the start of this. I calculated that if nobody had been vaxxed, then the statistics would have suggested that on average the gathering would have resulted in at least one more funeral.
Perhaps because it was a cautious crowd and 95% vaxxed (there were one or two anti-vaxxers) nobody caught the lurgy as far as I know, but still, it was even less fun than the average funeral.
But was it worse setting up a laptop so my dad could watch his sister's funeral online? Probably not. I'm glad we went. I'm also happier to take a few more risks now, which is good. We will all have to.
We really need to get away from the idea of freedom in theory. I think we're doing a good job through policy but now that needs to be extended to personal feelings. Win back the hearts and minds of the reluctant to experience freedom for real.
This is the way the world ends, not with a bang but with a comb over.
The ghosts of Andreas Baader and Ulrike Meinhof both say hi!
As to the campaign, while Murphy’s ads primarily went for the suburban woman vote, casting the Republican, Jack Ciattarelli as being not only anti-abortion but anti-birth control. Ciattarelli‘s ads on the other hand ruthlessly focused on taxation. They had a sound bite of Murphy saying “if tax rates are a problem for you, we’re not the state for you”.
So it’s not just woke vs anti-woke, good old fashioned tax and spend is still up there too.
And we all know what it is, now. It’s what lost the Virginia election for the Democrats
Btw if you have a handy alternative to ‘Woke’ I am happy to use it. It’s not the word that matters
A little request to the proprietor to keep some windows open might be much more effective improving your personal safety.
Shutdown policies have nothing to do with people wearing face coverings, as the job retention policies and SEISS grants are now history, further shutdowns are unlikely, they only held due to huge bribes.
But I give up. PB is determined to ignore it. Fair enough
But watch this space. Woke might get Trump re-elected. Think on that
Luckily, American voters sense this. They really don’t want to vote for him. My fear is that the Democrats will lurch ever further to the Left, double down on Wokery, and then in despair US voters will see Trump as the lesser of two evils
https://www.bbc.com/news/health-59009284
Apologies if I'm missing your point, I'd like to understand it.
Though as we can see from last night, the problem is the general public seem to have a hair trigger sensitivity to extremism on the left, and easily willing to overlook front and center extremism on the right. I don't know if this is just human nature (scared more by extremist change than extremist defence of the status quo), a product of latent racism (rioting black people provoke much more a response than rioting white people), or the effects of right wing media (which can quickly message away right wing problems and blow up minor left wing problems).
Either way it is deeply scary. The US may not be a democracy in five years.
So that's the thing: if you look at the dashboard and it's saying 30,000 new cases (and say 600 hospitalisations and 100+ deaths every day) it means you're only likely to catch the thing once every 6 years - and unlikely to be hospitalised with it in your lifetime.
Prevalence levels of endemic rhinoviruses and common cold COVs mean if we tested for them we'd have positives of several hundred k every day in the winter months, possibly more than a million in peak season.
It's hard to put case numbers in context given the sheer scale of the UK population.
See the £15 minimum wage farrago for another example.
So if they can’t provide that data they were in breach of the CFP rules anyway.
My guess (and it is just a guess) is they were fishing illegally and over quota. They got away with it. And now they are in trouble - the best analogy I can think of it’s people who paid themselves through dividends to minimise their tax… and then found that the government wasn’t minded to help them on furlough.
We could, at some point in the next 2-3 weeks, have recovered all of the lost COVID GDP. What's even better is that the predicted slowdown for Q4 hasn't materialised in any of the real time indices so we may end up overshooting the current growth projections and recover a lot more of the "lost growth potential" than is currently pencilled in. Right now we're about 5% below what would otherwise have occurred without COVID, government projections say we will make up 3% of that which then turns into our new baseline. The current level of economic activity and growth in activity is much larger than even the city consensus, there is now a plausible scenario where we recover all of the 5% and then add a bit more before returning to trend growth of ~1.8%.
I'm genuinely at a loss to explain it because as noted earlier, there are millions of people who are simply not participating in society. Potentially it could be the savings rate going up by a huge amount, but that's usually something which takes many years to feed through into the wider economy. It could also be the huge rise in disposable income for the middle class office worker who now has cut their commuting costs by 60-100%. I'm not sure how, but we could conceivably come out of the other side of this pandemic with an economy in better long term shape than when we entered. Some of that makes sense too, businesses have trimmed a lot of fat, output per worker is well up too and on average people who work are happier now than they were pre-pandemic because of flexible working hours.
Hats off to @stodge who did say at the end of last year that there would be a lot then unrealised net gains from this, I doubted him and tbh, I was wrong to do so!