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  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548

    Charles said:

    JackW said:

    Tim_B said:

    An interesting evening on Fox News. Each of the 4 remaining Republican candidates gets an hour to himself starting at 7pm Eastern.

    Luckily I have several episodes of The Walking Dead to watch.

    Which "Walking Dead" candidate performed best on "Fox News"?

    If Leave win, a zombie apocalypse will destroy the UK.

    Or is it Remain that will cause it? - it is hard to keep up with the nonsense being spoken by both sides of the Brexit referendum.

    My view that referenda are poor ways of resolving complex issues grows stronger as the weeks go by.
    Better have the elite tell them what to do, right? After all, the people shouldn't have a say in the future of their country because they don't understand the issues properly
    No. The people democratically elect a parliament with the power to make these decisions. It is how Britain has been run for years. The fashion for referenda has not been an edifying one, and not improved the quality of our politics. It is an abdication of responsibility by those we chose to form a government.
    True and it's mostly been used by Prime Ministers to keep their party happy, from Wilson to Cameron.
    But been conspicuously ineffective in keeping a split party happy.

    Indeed shortly after Britain voted to stay in the EEC, the Outers took over the Labour party and put leaving the EEC into the infamous 1983 manifesto. The referendum did not resolve the issue neither for the country or for the party. It will be the same post this one, but for the Tories whose next leadership contest will be dominated by the issue.



  • dr_spyndr_spyn Posts: 11,300
    I see that The Daily Star has headline on cocaine use by footballers, it does seem implausible that the only positive results have been from players outside The Premier League.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 56,690
    Indigo said:

    Charles said:

    Charles said:

    JackW said:

    Tim_B said:

    An interesting evening on Fox News. Each of the 4 remaining Republican candidates gets an hour to himself starting at 7pm Eastern.

    Luckily I have several episodes of The Walking Dead to watch.

    Which "Walking Dead" candidate performed best on "Fox News"?

    If Leave win, a zombie apocalypse will destroy the UK.

    Or is it Remain that will cause it? - it is hard to keep up with the nonsense being spoken by both sides of the Brexit referendum.

    My view that referenda are poor ways of resolving complex issues grows stronger as the weeks go by.
    Better have the elite tell them what to do, right? After all, the people shouldn't have a say in the future of their country because they don't understand the issues properly
    No. The people democratically elect a parliament with the power to make these decisions. It is how Britain has been run for years. The fashion for referenda has not been an edifying one, and not improved the quality of our politics. It is an abdication of responsibility by those we chose to form a government.
    Parliament/the executive has the right to make decisions but, as a recipient of delegated authority, it has no right to give those powers away.
    Didn't Mr Sked or one of his fellow travellers lose a case at the Supreme Court on that basis when is was argued that the executive had no right to give away powers to Brussels ??

    Presumably he lost on the basis that the power could be returned at any point by the repeal of European Communities Act.
  • GeoffMGeoffM Posts: 6,071
    Scott_P said:

    Aside from denting the Vice Chancellor's bonus what major loss are you expecting ?

    A question best put to Stephen Hawking, three Nobel laureates and the Astronomer Royal...
    Why? I used to be slightly chummy with the ex Astronomer Royal Sir Arnold Wolfendale.

    Nice chap, knew lots about stars. All the common sense of soup in a basket.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    Indigo said:

    Charles said:

    Charles said:

    JackW said:

    Tim_B said:

    An interesting evening on Fox News. Each of the 4 remaining Republican candidates gets an hour to himself starting at 7pm Eastern.

    Luckily I have several episodes of The Walking Dead to watch.

    Which "Walking Dead" candidate performed best on "Fox News"?

    If Leave win, a zombie apocalypse will destroy the UK.

    Or is it Remain that will cause it? - it is hard to keep up with the nonsense being spoken by both sides of the Brexit referendum.

    My view that referenda are poor ways of resolving complex issues grows stronger as the weeks go by.
    Better have the elite tell them what to do, right? After all, the people shouldn't have a say in the future of their country because they don't understand the issues properly
    No. The people democratically elect a parliament with the power to make these decisions. It is how Britain has been run for years. The fashion for referenda has not been an edifying one, and not improved the quality of our politics. It is an abdication of responsibility by those we chose to form a government.
    Parliament/the executive has the right to make decisions but, as a recipient of delegated authority, it has no right to give those powers away.
    Didn't Mr Sked or one of his fellow travellers lose a case at the Supreme Court on that basis when is was argued that the executive had no right to give away powers to Brussels ??

    Probably!

    But I'm approaching it from a perspective of political philosophy rather than legal construct.

    Admittedly it's a rather novel theory - for the UK at least - that political authority comes from the People rather than the Crown. Legally the Executive is still acting using the Crown's authority, and parliament only has the right to scrutinise their actions.
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    GeoffM said:

    Without an agenda, of course.

    Why would they not have an agenda?

    I would assume they do have an agenda, the continuation of World class science in the UK, surely?
  • DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 13,300
    The telly pilot: first thoughts.

    The graphics are too crowded and hard to read on Youtube (even if they might be legible in broadcast quality to a 50-inch LED screen).

    Alastair Meeks sounds a bit like William Hague.

    Black jackets do not work on telly as they just blur into an amorphous mass; it is the same with black cats.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    Indigo said:

    Charles said:

    Indigo said:

    Charles said:

    rcs1000 said:

    surbiton said:

    The use of meldonium by “lots of” tennis players was one of the reasons it was outlawed before Maria Sharapova was caught taking it, former World Anti-Doping Agency president Dick Pound claimed on Tuesday.

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/tennis/2016/03/09/maria-sharapova-meldonium-used-by-lots-of-tennis-players/

    Sounds like a lot of elite tennis players appear to have dodgy tickers and /or diabetics.

    We know why tennis players take meldonium but it was legal until a couple of months ago. If it works and is legal, why wouldn't they use it? Wouldn't it be stupid not to?
    So, they were not taking it for diabetes ? In her case, she must have shown sign of future diabetes at age 18! Her family doctor must be very good. We must learn from him / her.

    They all take it for "performance enhancement". That is all the more reason why they and their advisors should read the latest guidelines thoroughly.
    Yes, of course tennis players (and others) were taking the drug for performance enhancement. No-one is denying that. However, meldonium was only banned this year. Not ten years ago: ten weeks ago.
    And she was caught at the Australian Open, just a few weeks into the year.
    What's the washout period for meldonium?
    It been on their watched list for several years, it was always going to be banned, it was just a question of when. Really we should have no sympathy with this level of luck-pushing.
    I don't have much sympathy - she's been an idiot.

    But if it was performance-enhancing she'd have been a fool not to take it while it was permitted. What I'm intrigued by - hence the question - is whether she *took* it after than ban, or whether there is a wash-out period so she still had drug residue in her system
    http://www.google.com/patents/US7223797
    Other essential drawback of Meldonium is caused by the half-elimination period equalling 4–10 hours for humans
    fair enough. So she clearly is an idiot.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,284
    edited March 2016
    On Meldonium, the nupharma website, which syas it’s "Your one-stop store for the best Russian nootropics and supplements” says about Mlidronate, aka Meldonium that "Sport people are advised to take 500-1000mg, 2 times per day 40-60 minutes before workouts. The duration of the preparatory (load) period is 14-21 days, continue taking during competitions.”

    Copied that today, which doesn’t suggest a high degree of repsonsibility!

    Edit or even responsibility
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,676
    rcs1000 said:

    surbiton said:

    The use of meldonium by “lots of” tennis players was one of the reasons it was outlawed before Maria Sharapova was caught taking it, former World Anti-Doping Agency president Dick Pound claimed on Tuesday.

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/tennis/2016/03/09/maria-sharapova-meldonium-used-by-lots-of-tennis-players/

    Sounds like a lot of elite tennis players appear to have dodgy tickers and /or diabetics.

    We know why tennis players take meldonium but it was legal until a couple of months ago. If it works and is legal, why wouldn't they use it? Wouldn't it be stupid not to?
    So, they were not taking it for diabetes ? In her case, she must have shown sign of future diabetes at age 18! Her family doctor must be very good. We must learn from him / her.

    They all take it for "performance enhancement". That is all the more reason why they and their advisors should read the latest guidelines thoroughly.
    Yes, of course tennis players (and others) were taking the drug for performance enhancement. No-one is denying that. However, meldonium was only banned this year. Not ten years ago: ten weeks ago.
    And she was caught at the Australian Open, just a few weeks into the year.
    And Meldonium had been placed on the watch list for a year or more and a notice was sent out in September and again in December about the forthcoming ban. The WADA advisory list is one of the most keenly read documents in sport.

    I think what irks everyone is that if she had said - it was legal, it is analagous to a protein shake or Djoko lying in an oxygen tent, so why not - there would have been some sympathy (not sure about the sponsors). Instead she made up some ridiculous story about illness and her family doctor (she's been in the US for 20 years and meldonium is not FDA approved).

    As for why on earth she and her advisors didn't stop taking it? That is the real issue and questions abound in this critical area.
  • dr_spyndr_spyn Posts: 11,300
    Bath & NE Somerset have a referendum on electing a Mayor today.

    http://www.itv.com/news/west/2016-03-10/d-day-is-the-west-about-to-get-one-more-elected-mayor/

  • No. The people democratically elect a parliament with the power to make these decisions. It is how Britain has been run for years. The fashion for referenda has not been an edifying one, and not improved the quality of our politics. It is an abdication of responsibility by those we chose to form a government.

    The SNP should just declare independence then, assuming they get a majority? :)
    Well, if they got a majority at a fresh Scottish election in which secession had been a manifesto promise, yes, absolutely. Who would call for the use of troops against them? Nigel Farage? Anyone who can actually get themselves elected to the HoC?

  • IndigoIndigo Posts: 9,966

    Indeed shortly after Britain voted to stay in the EEC, the Outers took over the Labour party and put leaving the EEC into the infamous 1983 manifesto. The referendum did not resolve the issue neither for the country or for the party. It will be the same post this one, but for the Tories whose next leadership contest will be dominated by the issue.

    The 1983 manifesto was so full of corking policies it is hard to know which one had the most effect. Certainly there wasn't an especially strong Leave movement at the time, but the rest of it read like "20 Golden Socialist Greats"
    - unilateral nuclear disarmament
    - abolition of the House of Lords
    - renationalising BT
    - renationalising British Aerospace
    - renationalising British Shipbuilders
    - massive uncosted increases in public spending
    - tiny amounts of taxes raised by hammering the very rich

    And then it was called "A New Hope for Britain" and pitched to the public by that renowned electoral salesman, Michael Foot!
  • DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 13,300
    Indigo said:

    Indeed shortly after Britain voted to stay in the EEC, the Outers took over the Labour party and put leaving the EEC into the infamous 1983 manifesto. The referendum did not resolve the issue neither for the country or for the party. It will be the same post this one, but for the Tories whose next leadership contest will be dominated by the issue.

    The 1983 manifesto was so full of corking policies it is hard to know which one had the most effect. Certainly there wasn't an especially strong Leave movement at the time, but the rest of it read like "20 Golden Socialist Greats"
    - unilateral nuclear disarmament
    - abolition of the House of Lords
    - renationalising BT
    - renationalising British Aerospace
    - renationalising British Shipbuilders
    - massive uncosted increases in public spending
    - tiny amounts of taxes raised by hammering the very rich

    And then it was called "A New Hope for Britain" and pitched to the public by that renowned electoral salesman, Michael Foot!
    Uncosted spending increases? Sounds like the last Conservative election campaign, which they won.
  • DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 13,300
    TOPPING said:

    rcs1000 said:

    surbiton said:

    The use of meldonium by “lots of” tennis players was one of the reasons it was outlawed before Maria Sharapova was caught taking it, former World Anti-Doping Agency president Dick Pound claimed on Tuesday.

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/tennis/2016/03/09/maria-sharapova-meldonium-used-by-lots-of-tennis-players/

    Sounds like a lot of elite tennis players appear to have dodgy tickers and /or diabetics.

    We know why tennis players take meldonium but it was legal until a couple of months ago. If it works and is legal, why wouldn't they use it? Wouldn't it be stupid not to?
    So, they were not taking it for diabetes ? In her case, she must have shown sign of future diabetes at age 18! Her family doctor must be very good. We must learn from him / her.

    They all take it for "performance enhancement". That is all the more reason why they and their advisors should read the latest guidelines thoroughly.
    Yes, of course tennis players (and others) were taking the drug for performance enhancement. No-one is denying that. However, meldonium was only banned this year. Not ten years ago: ten weeks ago.
    And she was caught at the Australian Open, just a few weeks into the year.
    And Meldonium had been placed on the watch list for a year or more and a notice was sent out in September and again in December about the forthcoming ban. The WADA advisory list is one of the most keenly read documents in sport.

    I think what irks everyone is that if she had said - it was legal, it is analagous to a protein shake or Djoko lying in an oxygen tent, so why not - there would have been some sympathy (not sure about the sponsors). Instead she made up some ridiculous story about illness and her family doctor (she's been in the US for 20 years and meldonium is not FDA approved).

    As for why on earth she and her advisors didn't stop taking it? That is the real issue and questions abound in this critical area.
    Wasn't she taking it under a different name? If so, she might not have recognised it.
  • DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 13,300
    runnymede said:
    Careful. Nicholas Ridley said the same thing and Mrs Thatcher sacked him for it.
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340

    The telly pilot: first thoughts.

    The graphics are too crowded and hard to read on Youtube (even if they might be legible in broadcast quality to a 50-inch LED screen).

    Alastair Meeks sounds a bit like William Hague.

    Black jackets do not work on telly as they just blur into an amorphous mass; it is the same with black cats.

    I prefer that description, I think, to the comment I got elsewhere: "a younger Frankie Howerd".
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,284
    edited March 2016

    Indigo said:

    Indeed shortly after Britain voted to stay in the EEC, the Outers took over the Labour party and put leaving the EEC into the infamous 1983 manifesto. The referendum did not resolve the issue neither for the country or for the party. It will be the same post this one, but for the Tories whose next leadership contest will be dominated by the issue.

    The 1983 manifesto was so full of corking policies it is hard to know which one had the most effect. Certainly there wasn't an especially strong Leave movement at the time, but the rest of it read like "20 Golden Socialist Greats"
    - unilateral nuclear disarmament
    - abolition of the House of Lords
    - renationalising BT
    - renationalising British Aerospace
    - renationalising British Shipbuilders
    - massive uncosted increases in public spending
    - tiny amounts of taxes raised by hammering the very rich

    And then it was called "A New Hope for Britain" and pitched to the public by that renowned electoral salesman, Michael Foot!
    Uncosted spending increases? Sounds like the last Conservative election campaign, which they won.
    Don’t recall the phrase “massive uncosted increases in public spending” as such.
  • RogerRoger Posts: 19,826
    edited March 2016

    rcs1000 said:

    Re Her Magesty:

    I have absolutely no doubt that HRH is likely eurosceptic. I would not be surprised if she favoured Brexit.

    But she is the head of the Royal family, the head of state, and is deliberately and determinately unpolitical.

    Whatever her views, expressed in the privacy of the privy council, it was wrong for anyone to share them.

    I have no doubt she is wildly pro commonwealth and avidly welcomes the many thousands of non EU Indian and Pakistan citizens who come here each year.
    So are REMAINers racist for favouring EU immigration over Commonwealth immigration?
    I went to a PR dinner some years ago and I was put at the same table as a well known Conservative MP who was heavily involved in South Africa. He argued that it was ridiculous that White South Africans shouldn't have open access to this country. I asked about non white South Africans and he said that would be absurd. Interesting what was considered acceptable in polite company in the late 80's early 90's.

    Very watchable podcast and interesting to note that Alastaire was responsible or at least partly responsible for keeping George on the straight and narrow
  • runnymederunnymede Posts: 2,536
    'We could for example trouser the money we get back from leaving and have free unis again thereby inviting top quality grads from across the world to study here.

    Or is that just too outside the box for you ?'

    You've put your finger on it there Mr.Alanbrooke - the EU supporters simply can't imagine doing anything other than the way we do it now, within the EU. They remind me of members of the medieval church.
  • DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 13,300
    On science funding by the EU. Isn't one of the problems that Britain, almost uniquely, has been cutting research funding? I vaguely recall this being discussed, perhaps on one of SeanT's China porn rants.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,676
    edited March 2016

    TOPPING said:

    rcs1000 said:

    surbiton said:

    The use of meldonium by “lots of” tennis players was one of the reasons it was outlawed before Maria Sharapova was caught taking it, former World Anti-Doping Agency president Dick Pound claimed on Tuesday.

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/tennis/2016/03/09/maria-sharapova-meldonium-used-by-lots-of-tennis-players/

    Sounds like a lot of elite tennis players appear to have dodgy tickers and /or diabetics.

    We know why tennis players take meldonium but it was legal until a couple of months ago. If it works and is legal, why wouldn't they use it? Wouldn't it be stupid not to?
    So, they were not taking it for diabetes ? In her case, she must have shown sign of future diabetes at age 18! Her family doctor must be very good. We must learn from him / her.

    They all take it for "performance enhancement". That is all the more reason why they and their advisors should read the latest guidelines thoroughly.
    Yes, of course tennis players (and others) were taking the drug for performance enhancement. No-one is denying that. However, meldonium was only banned this year. Not ten years ago: ten weeks ago.
    And she was caught at the Australian Open, just a few weeks into the year.
    And Meldonium had been placed on the watch list for a year or more and a notice was sent out in September and again in December about the forthcoming ban. The WADA advisory list is one of the most keenly read documents in sport.

    I think what irks everyone is that if she had said - it was legal, it is analagous to a protein shake or Djoko lying in an oxygen tent, so why not - there would have been some sympathy (not sure about the sponsors). Instead she made up some ridiculous story about illness and her family doctor (she's been in the US for 20 years and meldonium is not FDA approved).

    As for why on earth she and her advisors didn't stop taking it? That is the real issue and questions abound in this critical area.
    Wasn't she taking it under a different name? If so, she might not have recognised it.
    She is a multi-million dollar business (slightly less, now). It's not just her waking up and wondering whether to have an extra shredded wheat or pop a Meldonium. One of her team, as are all teams in sport at this level, should have been all over the WADA advisories.

    What doesn't add up is how or why she continued taking it. C*ck up or conspicacy, we know what they usually are but if the former, it was monumental.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,284

    TOPPING said:

    rcs1000 said:

    surbiton said:

    The use of meldonium by “lots of” tennis players was one of the reasons it was outlawed before Maria Sharapova was caught taking it, former World Anti-Doping Agency president Dick Pound claimed on Tuesday.

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/tennis/2016/03/09/maria-sharapova-meldonium-used-by-lots-of-tennis-players/

    Sounds like a lot of elite tennis players appear to have dodgy tickers and /or diabetics.

    We know why tennis players take meldonium but it was legal until a couple of months ago. If it works and is legal, why wouldn't they use it? Wouldn't it be stupid not to?
    So, they were not taking it for diabetes ? In her case, she must have shown sign of future diabetes at age 18! Her family doctor must be very good. We must learn from him / her.

    They all take it for "performance enhancement". That is all the more reason why they and their advisors should read the latest guidelines thoroughly.
    Yes, of course tennis players (and others) were taking the drug for performance enhancement. No-one is denying that. However, meldonium was only banned this year. Not ten years ago: ten weeks ago.
    And she was caught at the Australian Open, just a few weeks into the year.
    And Meldonium had been placed on the watch list for a year or more and a notice was sent out in September and again in December about the forthcoming ban. The WADA advisory list is one of the most keenly read documents in sport.

    I think what irks everyone is that if she had said - it was legal, it is analagous to a protein shake or Djoko lying in an oxygen tent, so why not - there would have been some sympathy (not sure about the sponsors). Instead she made up some ridiculous story about illness and her family doctor (she's been in the US for 20 years and meldonium is not FDA approved).

    As for why on earth she and her advisors didn't stop taking it? That is the real issue and questions abound in this critical area.
    Wasn't she taking it under a different name? If so, she might not have recognised it.
    If her doctor didn’t know, he or she is incompetent.
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    runnymede said:

    'You've put your finger on it there Mr.Alanbrooke - the EU supporters simply can't imagine doing anything other than the way we do it now, within the EU.

    So why don't Switzerland do that?

    Oh.
  • NorfolkTilIDieNorfolkTilIDie Posts: 1,268
    Scott_P said:

    We are all scientists, mathematicians, engineers and economists in Cambridge, are all Fellows of the Royal Society and are writing in an individual capacity.

    the free movement of scientists is as important for science as free trade is for market economics.
    http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/opinion/letters/article4709281.ece

    How much pressure was put on these guys? Did Cameron threaten to strike them off ever getting honours and stripping them of govt funding, as he did with business leaders??
  • DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 13,300

    Indigo said:

    Indeed shortly after Britain voted to stay in the EEC, the Outers took over the Labour party and put leaving the EEC into the infamous 1983 manifesto. The referendum did not resolve the issue neither for the country or for the party. It will be the same post this one, but for the Tories whose next leadership contest will be dominated by the issue.

    The 1983 manifesto was so full of corking policies it is hard to know which one had the most effect. Certainly there wasn't an especially strong Leave movement at the time, but the rest of it read like "20 Golden Socialist Greats"
    - unilateral nuclear disarmament
    - abolition of the House of Lords
    - renationalising BT
    - renationalising British Aerospace
    - renationalising British Shipbuilders
    - massive uncosted increases in public spending
    - tiny amounts of taxes raised by hammering the very rich

    And then it was called "A New Hope for Britain" and pitched to the public by that renowned electoral salesman, Michael Foot!
    Uncosted spending increases? Sounds like the last Conservative election campaign, which they won.
    Don’t recall the phrase “massive uncosted increases in public spending” as such.
    Even on the Tory side, people wondered about David Cameron's apparently off-the-cuff promises on NHS spending and the like on those rare occasions Ed Miliband said something that resonated with the public.
  • chestnutchestnut Posts: 7,341
    dr_spyn said:

    I see that The Daily Star has headline on cocaine use by footballers, it does seem implausible that the only positive results have been from players outside The Premier League.

    Watch for inexplicably long injuries that players never seem to recover from.
  • RogerRoger Posts: 19,826

    Scott_P said:

    We are all scientists, mathematicians, engineers and economists in Cambridge, are all Fellows of the Royal Society and are writing in an individual capacity.

    the free movement of scientists is as important for science as free trade is for market economics.
    http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/opinion/letters/article4709281.ece
    How much pressure was put on these guys? Did Cameron threaten to strike them off ever getting honours and stripping them of govt funding, as he did with business leaders??

    The paranoia reaches fever pitch!
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,068
    edited March 2016
    Scott_P said:

    runnymede said:

    'You've put your finger on it there Mr.Alanbrooke - the EU supporters simply can't imagine doing anything other than the way we do it now, within the EU.

    So why don't Switzerland do that?

    Oh.
    Strange as it may seem, science flourishes in many non-EU countries, and flourished in the UK prior to 1973. And plenty of scientists study and work here who come from outside the EU.

    This is certainly one of the weaker arguments in favour of EU membership - on a par with the Gruffalo never having been produced without the EU.
  • RogerRoger Posts: 19,826
    dr_spyn said:

    I see that The Daily Star has headline on cocaine use by footballers, it does seem implausible that the only positive results have been from players outside The Premier League.

    It seems a little unfair that no distinction is made between recreational drugs and performance enhancing ones. I'm not even sure why recreational drugs should interest sports bodies at all
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    Roger said:

    Scott_P said:

    We are all scientists, mathematicians, engineers and economists in Cambridge, are all Fellows of the Royal Society and are writing in an individual capacity.

    the free movement of scientists is as important for science as free trade is for market economics.
    http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/opinion/letters/article4709281.ece
    How much pressure was put on these guys? Did Cameron threaten to strike them off ever getting honours and stripping them of govt funding, as he did with business leaders??
    The paranoia reaches fever pitch!

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-3482408/Believe-conspiracy-theories-probably-narcissist-People-doubt-moon-landings-likely-selfish-attention-seeking.html
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,654
    Charles said:

    Indigo said:

    Charles said:

    Charles said:

    JackW said:

    Tim_B said:

    An interesting evening on Fox News. Each of the 4 remaining Republican candidates gets an hour to himself starting at 7pm Eastern.

    Luckily I have several episodes of The Walking Dead to watch.

    Which "Walking Dead" candidate performed best on "Fox News"?

    If Leave win, a zombie apocalypse will destroy the UK.

    Or is it Remain that will cause it? - it is hard to keep up with the nonsense being spoken by both sides of the Brexit referendum.

    My view that referenda are poor ways of resolving complex issues grows stronger as the weeks go by.
    Better have the elite tell them what to do, right? After all, the people shouldn't have a say in the future of their country because they don't understand the issues properly
    No. The people democratically elect a parliament with the power to make these decisions. It is how Britain has been run for years. The fashion for referenda has not been an edifying one, and not improved the quality of our politics. It is an abdication of responsibility by those we chose to form a government.
    Parliament/the executive has the right to make decisions but, as a recipient of delegated authority, it has no right to give those powers away.

    Probably!

    But I'm approaching it from a perspective of political philosophy rather than legal construct.

    Admittedly it's a rather novel theory - for the UK at least - that political authori comes from the People rather than the Crown. Legally the Executive is still acting using the Crown's authority, and parliament only has the right to scrutinise their actions.
    I understand that this theory is being advanced this week in the Supreme Court by the Dean of Faculty on behalf of the Scottish government. There is a case challenging the competence of the absurd named person legislation arguing it is incompetent as it is ultra vires. This will almost certainly fail as it has done in the lower courts but the Dean is arguing that the courts have no business considering the vires of the Scottish Parliament at all despite the terms of the Scotland Act. This is because the Scottish Parliament is not merely a creature of Westminster statute but reflects the sovereign will of the Scottish people.

    There is more than a nod to this theory in the new Scotland bill which declares that Westminster cannot abolish the Scottish Parliament without the consent of the Scottish people.
  • NorfolkTilIDieNorfolkTilIDie Posts: 1,268
    How come the BBC is not providing any coverage of John Longworth's allegation about pressure on businessmen from No 10??
  • Plato_SaysPlato_Says Posts: 11,822
    Golly
    Tommy Vance was one of the “guilty ones” accused of plugging records in return for prostitutes in a 1970s BBC scandal, bosses confirmed today.
    http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/radio-1-dj-tommy-vance-7528409
  • IndigoIndigo Posts: 9,966
    edited March 2016
    runnymede said:
    But but but Mr Nabavi assured us that is was....

    Even when I quoted a former ECJ judge describing such a view as "bullshit" he was adamant.
  • NorfolkTilIDieNorfolkTilIDie Posts: 1,268
    Roger said:

    Scott_P said:

    We are all scientists, mathematicians, engineers and economists in Cambridge, are all Fellows of the Royal Society and are writing in an individual capacity.

    the free movement of scientists is as important for science as free trade is for market economics.
    http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/opinion/letters/article4709281.ece
    How much pressure was put on these guys? Did Cameron threaten to strike them off ever getting honours and stripping them of govt funding, as he did with business leaders??
    The paranoia reaches fever pitch!

    You were the one that claimed it was paranoia when it was said about businessmen. Now it turns out that they were threatened with being cut off from govt contracts. After that silly display, your claims of paranoia don't have any credibility at all. A bit like David Cameron.
  • NorfolkTilIDieNorfolkTilIDie Posts: 1,268
    Indigo said:

    runnymede said:
    But but but Mr Nabavi assured us that is was....

    Even when I quoted a former ECJ judge describing such a view as "bullshit" he was adamant.
    The lies just pile up. Cameron is as much a liar as Tony Blair. He has trashed his reputation to stay in the EU.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,518
    The warnings about Switzerland are particularly funny because École polytechnique fédérale de Lausanne (EPFL) just won a massive EU based grant to be part of the human brain project, beating a lot of actual EU based universities including our own.

    If we left the EU and our economy became more like Switzerland, that's a net gain. 3% unemployment, massive BoP surplus, low government spending, no welfare trap, high wages.
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    It has been vastly entertaining trying to follow the tortured logic of the Brexiteers this morning.

    Switzerland is outside the EU, and very wealthy, say the Brexiteers

    Switzerland has a problem recruiting World class researchers in science, say 150 Fellows of the Royal Society, Stephen Hawking, three Nobel laureates and the Astronomer Royal

    If we left the EU, we might have the same recruitment problem as Switzerland, say 150 Fellows of the Royal Society, Stephen Hawking, three Nobel laureates and the Astronomer Royal

    Ah, say the Brexiteers, we could solve any recruitment problem because we would be very wealthy, like Switzerland.

    Oh, wait...

    So we would be exactly like Switzerland, while being nothing like Switzerland at all.

    One might call it Schrödinger's Brexit
  • Innocent_AbroadInnocent_Abroad Posts: 3,294
    edited March 2016
    Scott_P said:

    It has been vastly entertaining trying to follow the tortured logic of the Brexiteers this morning.

    Switzerland is outside the EU, and very wealthy, say the Brexiteers

    Switzerland has a problem recruiting World class researchers in science, say 150 Fellows of the Royal Society, Stephen Hawking, three Nobel laureates and the Astronomer Royal

    If we left the EU, we might have the same recruitment problem as Switzerland, say 150 Fellows of the Royal Society, Stephen Hawking, three Nobel laureates and the Astronomer Royal

    Ah, say the Brexiteers, we could solve any recruitment problem because we would be very wealthy, like Switzerland.

    Oh, wait...

    So we would be exactly like Switzerland, while being nothing like Switzerland at all.

    One might call it Schrödinger's Brexit

    :lol:
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,518
    Scott_P said:

    It has been vastly entertaining trying to follow the tortured logic of the Brexiteers this morning.

    Switzerland is outside the EU, and very wealthy, say the Brexiteers

    Switzerland has a problem recruiting World class researchers in science, say 150 Fellows of the Royal Society, Stephen Hawking, three Nobel laureates and the Astronomer Royal

    If we left the EU, we might have the same recruitment problem as Switzerland, say 150 Fellows of the Royal Society, Stephen Hawking, three Nobel laureates and the Astronomer Royal

    Ah, say the Brexiteers, we could solve any recruitment problem because we would be very wealthy, like Switzerland.

    Oh, wait...

    So we would be exactly like Switzerland, while being nothing like Switzerland at all.

    One might call it Schrödinger's Brexit

    It's also complete rubbish, Swiss pharmaceutical companies have global recruitment programmes. Charles can probably fill you in a bit better.

    Swiss universities have always had a recruitment problem, not because they used their emergency brake, but because their universities, outside of ETH and ETFP, are shit.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 28,163
    Scott_P said:

    runnymede said:

    'You've put your finger on it there Mr.Alanbrooke - the EU supporters simply can't imagine doing anything other than the way we do it now, within the EU.

    So why don't Switzerland do that?

    Oh.
    Please keep hammering away at the Swiss thing.
  • NorfolkTilIDieNorfolkTilIDie Posts: 1,268
    Its amazing how the US leads the world in scientific talent flocking there, despite having a visa system for it.
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453

    Please keep hammering away at the Swiss thing.

    Umm, it was a Brexiteer that brought it up...
  • RogerRoger Posts: 19,826

    Roger said:

    Scott_P said:

    We are all scientists, mathematicians, engineers and economists in Cambridge, are all Fellows of the Royal Society and are writing in an individual capacity.

    the free movement of scientists is as important for science as free trade is for market economics.
    http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/opinion/letters/article4709281.ece
    How much pressure was put on these guys? Did Cameron threaten to strike them off ever getting honours and stripping them of govt funding, as he did with business leaders??
    The paranoia reaches fever pitch!
    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-3482408/Believe-conspiracy-theories-probably-narcissist-People-doubt-moon-landings-likely-selfish-attention-seeking.html

    I found myself clicking on a picture of a naked Kim Kardashian and wondering which conspiracy theory she was following
  • DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 13,300
    Roger said:

    dr_spyn said:

    I see that The Daily Star has headline on cocaine use by footballers, it does seem implausible that the only positive results have been from players outside The Premier League.

    It seems a little unfair that no distinction is made between recreational drugs and performance enhancing ones. I'm not even sure why recreational drugs should interest sports bodies at all
    Cocaine could be performance enhancing if it were snorted at half-time rather than in nightclub toilets.
  • NorfolkTilIDieNorfolkTilIDie Posts: 1,268
    Has Downing Street cleared for the true NINO inmigration figures to be released yet?? Or are they still hiding the numbers from UK public??
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,197
    Scott_P said:

    It has been vastly entertaining trying to follow the tortured logic of the Brexiteers this morning.

    Switzerland is outside the EU, and very wealthy, say the Brexiteers

    Switzerland has a problem recruiting World class researchers in science, say 150 Fellows of the Royal Society, Stephen Hawking, three Nobel laureates and the Astronomer Royal

    If we left the EU, we might have the same recruitment problem as Switzerland, say 150 Fellows of the Royal Society, Stephen Hawking, three Nobel laureates and the Astronomer Royal

    Ah, say the Brexiteers, we could solve any recruitment problem because we would be very wealthy, like Switzerland.

    Oh, wait...

    So we would be exactly like Switzerland, while being nothing like Switzerland at all.

    One might call it Schrödinger's Brexit

    where did you copy that one from Scott, you seem to have deleted the tweet headers , tags , etc
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,068
    Scott_P said:

    It has been vastly entertaining trying to follow the tortured logic of the Brexiteers this morning.

    Switzerland is outside the EU, and very wealthy, say the Brexiteers

    Switzerland has a problem recruiting World class researchers in science, say 150 Fellows of the Royal Society, Stephen Hawking, three Nobel laureates and the Astronomer Royal

    If we left the EU, we might have the same recruitment problem as Switzerland, say 150 Fellows of the Royal Society, Stephen Hawking, three Nobel laureates and the Astronomer Royal

    Ah, say the Brexiteers, we could solve any recruitment problem because we would be very wealthy, like Switzerland.

    Oh, wait...

    So we would be exactly like Switzerland, while being nothing like Switzerland at all.

    One might call it Schrödinger's Brexit

    I think you're on a bit of a sticky wicket, trying to persuade us that science doesn't exist, outside the Borders of the EU.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,518

    Its amazing how the US leads the world in scientific talent flocking there, despite having a visa system for it.

    They aren't in the EU, you're clearly lying. The EU is everything, the EU is life.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 77,769
    Which will be the first country to give Government by Google Deepmind a go ?

    Since it's now crushing the game of Go with it's ~2^inf combinations why not just feed it all the economic data and then go with it's decisions on interest rates, tax levels, spending etc !
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 28,163

    How come the BBC is not providing any coverage of John Longworth's allegation about pressure on businessmen from No 10??

    Doesn't matter; they're still massively running on the Queen story, which has given a story that helps Leave legs for another day. Remain sympathisers' desire to use the levers of power to slap down their opponents getting in the way of sound judgement.
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    Sean_F said:

    trying to persuade us that science doesn't exist, outside the Borders of the EU.

    Who said that?

    Are you trying to persuade us Stephen Hawking is an idiot?
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,518
    Sean_F said:

    Scott_P said:

    It has been vastly entertaining trying to follow the tortured logic of the Brexiteers this morning.

    Switzerland is outside the EU, and very wealthy, say the Brexiteers

    Switzerland has a problem recruiting World class researchers in science, say 150 Fellows of the Royal Society, Stephen Hawking, three Nobel laureates and the Astronomer Royal

    If we left the EU, we might have the same recruitment problem as Switzerland, say 150 Fellows of the Royal Society, Stephen Hawking, three Nobel laureates and the Astronomer Royal

    Ah, say the Brexiteers, we could solve any recruitment problem because we would be very wealthy, like Switzerland.

    Oh, wait...

    So we would be exactly like Switzerland, while being nothing like Switzerland at all.

    One might call it Schrödinger's Brexit

    I think you're on a bit of a sticky wicket, trying to persuade us that science doesn't exist, outside the Borders of the EU.
    Well especially when one considers that the Swiss pharma sector is bigger than ours despite being a nation of just 8m people.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 28,163
    Scott_P said:

    Sean_F said:

    trying to persuade us that science doesn't exist, outside the Borders of the EU.

    Who said that?

    Are you trying to persuade us Stephen Hawking is an idiot?
    Are you trying to persuade us that a clever person has never been wrong, on anything? What a bizarrely simplistic view you have of the world. I blame television.

  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 28,163
    MaxPB said:

    Sean_F said:

    Scott_P said:

    It has been vastly entertaining trying to follow the tortured logic of the Brexiteers this morning.

    Switzerland is outside the EU, and very wealthy, say the Brexiteers

    Switzerland has a problem recruiting World class researchers in science, say 150 Fellows of the Royal Society, Stephen Hawking, three Nobel laureates and the Astronomer Royal

    If we left the EU, we might have the same recruitment problem as Switzerland, say 150 Fellows of the Royal Society, Stephen Hawking, three Nobel laureates and the Astronomer Royal

    Ah, say the Brexiteers, we could solve any recruitment problem because we would be very wealthy, like Switzerland.

    Oh, wait...

    So we would be exactly like Switzerland, while being nothing like Switzerland at all.

    One might call it Schrödinger's Brexit

    I think you're on a bit of a sticky wicket, trying to persuade us that science doesn't exist, outside the Borders of the EU.
    Well especially when one considers that the Swiss pharma sector is bigger than ours despite being a nation of just 8m people.
    You have to pity those struggling Swiss.
  • IndigoIndigo Posts: 9,966
    Scott_P said:

    Sean_F said:

    trying to persuade us that science doesn't exist, outside the Borders of the EU.

    Who said that?

    Are you trying to persuade us Stephen Hawking is an idiot?
    I am sure he is a brilliant scientist, I have no idea of his knowledge or common sense about the real world, and neither do you, so maybe stop boring us with this crap and find a new tweet to paste.
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453

    What a bizarrely simplistic view you have of the world.

    Still trying to work out how you got from "we might have a recruitment problem" to "science doesn't exist, outside the Borders of the EU"

    Hyperbole much?
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,068
    Scott_P said:

    Sean_F said:

    trying to persuade us that science doesn't exist, outside the Borders of the EU.

    Who said that?

    Are you trying to persuade us Stephen Hawking is an idiot?
    No, simply as partisan as anyone else.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    Scott_P said:

    It has been vastly entertaining trying to follow the tortured logic of the Brexiteers this morning.

    Switzerland is outside the EU, and very wealthy, say the Brexiteers

    Switzerland has a problem recruiting World class researchers in science, say 150 Fellows of the Royal Society, Stephen Hawking, three Nobel laureates and the Astronomer Royal

    If we left the EU, we might have the same recruitment problem as Switzerland, say 150 Fellows of the Royal Society, Stephen Hawking, three Nobel laureates and the Astronomer Royal

    Ah, say the Brexiteers, we could solve any recruitment problem because we would be very wealthy, like Switzerland.

    Oh, wait...

    So we would be exactly like Switzerland, while being nothing like Switzerland at all.

    One might call it Schrödinger's Brexit

    I am part of the governance structure for a UK based, research-led, scientific institution.

    Are you?
  • CD13CD13 Posts: 6,364

    I have some sympathy for Sharapova - I only watch the women's tennis at Wimbledon until the pretty ones have been knocked out - but she's been silly, stupid or whatever. I'd suspect a psychological aspect to it too. She's been taking it for ten years and believes it works, which it does.

    So why didn't her team use a placebo to protect her against herself? She would still get a boost and she'd pass the drug tests.

  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    Indigo said:

    I have no idea of his knowledge or common sense about the real world

    He was stating his view about science. Are you really disputing it? Seems a bit desperate
  • RogerRoger Posts: 19,826
    Too much tilting at windmills. It's important for all our sakes that both sides-though particulary the 'Leavers'-get an ad agency to drag their disparate thoughts into a coherent campaign. Some bright posters are sounding anything but at the moment...
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,188
    edited March 2016
    Charles said:

    Scott_P said:

    It has been vastly entertaining trying to follow the tortured logic of the Brexiteers this morning.

    Switzerland is outside the EU, and very wealthy, say the Brexiteers

    Switzerland has a problem recruiting World class researchers in science, say 150 Fellows of the Royal Society, Stephen Hawking, three Nobel laureates and the Astronomer Royal

    If we left the EU, we might have the same recruitment problem as Switzerland, say 150 Fellows of the Royal Society, Stephen Hawking, three Nobel laureates and the Astronomer Royal

    Ah, say the Brexiteers, we could solve any recruitment problem because we would be very wealthy, like Switzerland.

    Oh, wait...

    So we would be exactly like Switzerland, while being nothing like Switzerland at all.

    One might call it Schrödinger's Brexit

    I am part of the governance structure for a UK based, research-led, scientific institution.

    Are you?
    I have an A, in A Level in Physics, when A Levels were hard.

    Beat that !
  • chestnutchestnut Posts: 7,341
    If you sail too far away from the EU, you drop off the side.
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    Charles said:

    I am part of the governance structure for a UK based, research-led, scientific institution.

    Are you claiming the authors of the letter are wrong?
  • runnymederunnymede Posts: 2,536
    'No, simply as partisan as anyone else.'

    Hawking's partisan leanings (Labour, CND) are hardly a secret.

    If I remember rightly he was threatening to leave the UK over cuts to science funding a few years ago as well. We could tell him we would reinvest the money wasted on EU agriculture in science in the UK after Brexit - I suspect he wouldn't change his stance though.
  • IndigoIndigo Posts: 9,966
    edited March 2016
    Scott_P said:

    Charles said:

    I am part of the governance structure for a UK based, research-led, scientific institution.

    Are you claiming the authors of the letter are wrong?
    Christ on a bike.
    Scott_P said:

    Indigo said:

    I have no idea of his knowledge or common sense about the real world

    He was stating his view about science. Are you really disputing it? Seems a bit desperate
    No your not, you are talking incoherent bollox. Stop it.

    This forum is starting to get a bit of a bore with all the Scott&Paste, I think I will go and do something more productive and let him paste to himself.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,518
    Scott_P said:

    Indigo said:

    I have no idea of his knowledge or common sense about the real world

    He was stating his view about science. Are you really disputing it? Seems a bit desperate
    Well since you know exactly what he thinks, can you explain how the US manages to be a world leader outside of the EU, or how EPFL won an EU grant ahead of a whole bunch of other universities actually based within the EU? Or how the Swiss pharma sector continues to thrive despite people telling them many, many times that they would fail outside of the EU whenever they decided not to join.
  • How come the BBC is not providing any coverage of John Longworth's allegation about pressure on businessmen from No 10??

    The news agenda has moved on and landed outside Michael Gove's front door. Chris Grayling trying to play a straight bat on Sky over the Sun's HMQ story but today's press pack will be pressurising everyone from leave to comment. Sky are clearing inferring it was Michael Gove.
  • Plato_SaysPlato_Says Posts: 11,822
    :lol:
    chestnut said:

    If you sail too far away from the EU, you drop off the side.

  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,676
    Charles said:

    Scott_P said:

    It has been vastly entertaining trying to follow the tortured logic of the Brexiteers this morning.

    Switzerland is outside the EU, and very wealthy, say the Brexiteers

    Switzerland has a problem recruiting World class researchers in science, say 150 Fellows of the Royal Society, Stephen Hawking, three Nobel laureates and the Astronomer Royal

    If we left the EU, we might have the same recruitment problem as Switzerland, say 150 Fellows of the Royal Society, Stephen Hawking, three Nobel laureates and the Astronomer Royal

    Ah, say the Brexiteers, we could solve any recruitment problem because we would be very wealthy, like Switzerland.

    Oh, wait...

    So we would be exactly like Switzerland, while being nothing like Switzerland at all.

    One might call it Schrödinger's Brexit

    I am part of the governance structure for a UK based, research-led, scientific institution.

    Are you?
    We have already heard, Charles, that very clever people (pace the Hawkmeister), can get it wrong.
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    @PeterMannionMP: Breaking: Man who cldn't negotiate way out of wet paper bag at MoJ to declare Cameron EU deal not good enough. #ChrisGrayling #StrongerIn
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,068
    Scott_P said:

    Indigo said:

    I have no idea of his knowledge or common sense about the real world

    He was stating his view about science. Are you really disputing it? Seems a bit desperate
    He was stating his views about EU membership, about which his views carry no more weight than those of millions of other intelligent people. If he was explaining physics or astronomy, then of course, his views would do.

    Since it is demonstrably the case that science flourishes outside the EU, we're entitled to disagree with him.
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    The Brexiteers do seem very touchy this morning.

    I wonder why?
  • Plato_SaysPlato_Says Posts: 11,822
    No, you're making some peculiar claims and others are disagreeing.
    Scott_P said:

    The Brexiteers do seem very touchy this morning.

    I wonder why?

  • runnymederunnymede Posts: 2,536
    I have an A, in A Level in Physics, when A Levels were hard.

    That was about 1969 wasn't it? How well preserved you are
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    Scott_P said:

    The Brexiteers do seem very touchy this morning.

    I wonder why?

    Not really - we have her Maj on our side .

    You have er Nick Clegg.
  • How come the BBC is not providing any coverage of John Longworth's allegation about pressure on businessmen from No 10??

    The news agenda has moved on and landed outside Michael Gove's front door. Chris Grayling trying to play a straight bat on Sky over the Sun's HMQ story but today's press pack will be pressurising everyone from leave to comment. Sky are clearing inferring it was Michael Gove.
    If it really was Gove, he'd be in the sticky brown stuff.

    Definite resignation from the Privy Council and the cabinet most likely.
  • IndigoIndigo Posts: 9,966
    Scott_P said:

    The Brexiteers do seem very touchy this morning.

    I wonder why?

    We're terrified.

    A couple of weeks of being hammered by all the dark arts of No10. Letters from scientists, business leaders and Uncle Tom Cobley. The BBC pushing its pro-EU agenda as hard as it can, scare stories every day, sometimes twice a day, world leaders chiming in with their two penneth, finance minister telling us the world will end, endless luvvies on the TV saying how it's going to be like armageddon, and the Leave campaign is a total clusterf*ck...

    ... and yet Leave was still ahead in the ICM last night. Think what Leave could do if it actually tried.
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    TGOHF said:

    Not really - we have her Maj on our side .

    You have er Nick Clegg.

    Like
  • How come the BBC is not providing any coverage of John Longworth's allegation about pressure on businessmen from No 10??

    The news agenda has moved on and landed outside Michael Gove's front door. Chris Grayling trying to play a straight bat on Sky over the Sun's HMQ story but today's press pack will be pressurising everyone from leave to comment. Sky are clearing inferring it was Michael Gove.
    If it really was Gove, he'd be in the sticky brown stuff.

    Definite resignation from the Privy Council and the cabinet most likely.
    The media do seem to be after him this am
  • Indigo said:

    Scott_P said:

    The Brexiteers do seem very touchy this morning.

    I wonder why?

    We're terrified.

    A couple of weeks of being hammered by all the dark arts of No10. Letters from scientists, business leaders and Uncle Tom Cobley. The BBC pushing its pro-EU agenda as hard as it can, scare stories every day, sometimes twice a day, world leaders chiming in with their two penneth, finance minister telling us the world will end, endless luvvies on the TV saying how it's going to be like armageddon, and the Leave campaign is a total clusterf*ck...

    ... and yet Leave was still ahead in the ICM last night. Think what Leave could do if it actually tried.
    Is that a new poll - how far were leave ahead
  • Plato_SaysPlato_Says Posts: 11,822
    Totally unacceptable
    416 foreign national offenders were freed between October and December
    There were 5,789 foreign offenders living in Britain due for deportation
    Nearly a third of them – 1,865 – have been loose for more than five years
    Many challenge their deportation orders using controversial human rights
    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3484964/Five-criminals-day-freed-UK-instead-deported-6-000-foreign-offenders-currently-roaming-Britain-s-streets-kicked-out.html
  • How come the BBC is not providing any coverage of John Longworth's allegation about pressure on businessmen from No 10??

    The news agenda has moved on and landed outside Michael Gove's front door. Chris Grayling trying to play a straight bat on Sky over the Sun's HMQ story but today's press pack will be pressurising everyone from leave to comment. Sky are clearing inferring it was Michael Gove.
    If it really was Gove, he'd be in the sticky brown stuff.

    Definite resignation from the Privy Council and the cabinet most likely.
    The media do seem to be after him this am
    Would be a real shame as Gove is shaping up to be the finest Justice Secretary ever.
  • DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 13,300

    How come the BBC is not providing any coverage of John Longworth's allegation about pressure on businessmen from No 10??

    The news agenda has moved on and landed outside Michael Gove's front door. Chris Grayling trying to play a straight bat on Sky over the Sun's HMQ story but today's press pack will be pressurising everyone from leave to comment. Sky are clearing inferring it was Michael Gove.
    If it really was Gove, he'd be in the sticky brown stuff.

    Definite resignation from the Privy Council and the cabinet most likely.
    The precedent of David Cameron leaking HMQ's purring over SindyRef renders me sceptical that anything at all will happen.
  • I thought the British Monarch has a history of supporting a United Europe.

    The Queen's predecessor but one was in favour of Herr Hitler and his plan for a United Europe including the UK.
  • CD13CD13 Posts: 6,364
    Leave Mr P alone.

    He adds to the fun by pasting everyone's opinion. That is, everyone's opinion that he agrees with. And when it comes to the EU, the future outside will consist of a fair degree of guesswork.

    The future inside will be political union, led by the French and Germans, and that has the benefit of being definite.
  • Mike - congrats on your latest podcast, easily your best to date and it was good to see both Mr. Meeks and Shadsy in the flesh so to speak.
    You've found a very nice niche market with this concept, but presumably you need some advertising and/or sponsorship to make it work commercially?
  • david_kendrick1david_kendrick1 Posts: 325
    edited March 2016
    "Leave has made a very poor case, therefore I'll vote IN." Alternatively, "The re-negotiation was a sham, therefore I'll be voting Leave."

    These arguements, or something similar, are produced ad nauseam on PB. But why should they matter?

    You post on PB: you are an anorak. You will vote In or Leave.

    You will only make the decision for your own benefit, of for others' benefit. Is it not irrelevant how well the respective cases are made?
  • NorfolkTilIDieNorfolkTilIDie Posts: 1,268

    How come the BBC is not providing any coverage of John Longworth's allegation about pressure on businessmen from No 10??

    The news agenda has moved on and landed outside Michael Gove's front door. Chris Grayling trying to play a straight bat on Sky over the Sun's HMQ story but today's press pack will be pressurising everyone from leave to comment. Sky are clearing inferring it was Michael Gove.
    If it really was Gove, he'd be in the sticky brown stuff.

    Definite resignation from the Privy Council and the cabinet most likely.
    Cameron's team threaten businessmen with not getting contracts if they announce wrong political views and are still in place, and this is a far lesser crime. Also didn't Cameron himself release details of private conversations with HMQ before now??
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,654
    edited March 2016

    How come the BBC is not providing any coverage of John Longworth's allegation about pressure on businessmen from No 10??

    The news agenda has moved on and landed outside Michael Gove's front door. Chris Grayling trying to play a straight bat on Sky over the Sun's HMQ story but today's press pack will be pressurising everyone from leave to comment. Sky are clearing inferring it was Michael Gove.
    If it really was Gove, he'd be in the sticky brown stuff.

    Definite resignation from the Privy Council and the cabinet most likely.
    The media do seem to be after him this am
    Would be a real shame as Gove is shaping up to be the finest Justice Secretary ever.
    Roy Jenkins? Undoing all the idiocies of his immediate predecessor is an excellent start but I think he has a bit to go yet.

    Edit I appreciate he was not Justice minister as such but nearly all of the current responsibilities fell within his remit as Home Secretary.
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 22,121
    edited March 2016

    How come the BBC is not providing any coverage of John Longworth's allegation about pressure on businessmen from No 10??

    The news agenda has moved on and landed outside Michael Gove's front door. Chris Grayling trying to play a straight bat on Sky over the Sun's HMQ story but today's press pack will be pressurising everyone from leave to comment. Sky are clearing inferring it was Michael Gove.
    If it really was Gove, he'd be in the sticky brown stuff.

    Definite resignation from the Privy Council and the cabinet most likely.
    Cameron's team threaten businessmen with not getting contracts if they announce wrong political views and are still in place, and this is a far lesser crime. Also didn't Cameron himself release details of private conversations with HMQ before now??
    Are refering to the moment she was apparently puuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuurrrrrrrrrrrrrrrring down the phone like Eartha Kitt? :smiley:
  • How come the BBC is not providing any coverage of John Longworth's allegation about pressure on businessmen from No 10??

    The news agenda has moved on and landed outside Michael Gove's front door. Chris Grayling trying to play a straight bat on Sky over the Sun's HMQ story but today's press pack will be pressurising everyone from leave to comment. Sky are clearing inferring it was Michael Gove.
    If it really was Gove, he'd be in the sticky brown stuff.

    Definite resignation from the Privy Council and the cabinet most likely.
    The precedent of David Cameron leaking HMQ's purring over SindyRef renders me sceptical that anything at all will happen.
    That was different. That was a private conversation, this was a deliberate leak to the media.

    Plus that was after the event.
  • How come the BBC is not providing any coverage of John Longworth's allegation about pressure on businessmen from No 10??

    The news agenda has moved on and landed outside Michael Gove's front door. Chris Grayling trying to play a straight bat on Sky over the Sun's HMQ story but today's press pack will be pressurising everyone from leave to comment. Sky are clearing inferring it was Michael Gove.
    If it really was Gove, he'd be in the sticky brown stuff.

    Definite resignation from the Privy Council and the cabinet most likely.
    The media do seem to be after him this am
    Would be a real shame as Gove is shaping up to be the finest Justice Secretary ever.
    I would be disappointed as he is a good Justice Secretary. While I now favour remain following Mark Carney's recent evidence to the select committee I am sure there is a large number of both remain and leave supporters who will want to come together after the 23rd June and who will look to Michael Gove having a big roll in the post referendum cabinet
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 22,121
    edited March 2016

    How come the BBC is not providing any coverage of John Longworth's allegation about pressure on businessmen from No 10??

    The news agenda has moved on and landed outside Michael Gove's front door. Chris Grayling trying to play a straight bat on Sky over the Sun's HMQ story but today's press pack will be pressurising everyone from leave to comment. Sky are clearing inferring it was Michael Gove.
    If it really was Gove, he'd be in the sticky brown stuff.

    Definite resignation from the Privy Council and the cabinet most likely.
    The precedent of David Cameron leaking HMQ's purring over SindyRef renders me sceptical that anything at all will happen.
    That was different. That was a private conversation, this was a deliberate leak to the media.

    Plus that was after the event.
    A "private" conversation where there was like 500 hundred journalists and TV cameras within ear shot! :smiley:
  • DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 13,300
    Unacceptable to whom? Judges? The government? The electorate?

    It is certainly undesirable and perhaps even shocking, but "they" seem to have accepted it.

    Totally unacceptable

    416 foreign national offenders were freed between October and December
    There were 5,789 foreign offenders living in Britain due for deportation
    Nearly a third of them – 1,865 – have been loose for more than five years
    Many challenge their deportation orders using controversial human rights
    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3484964/Five-criminals-day-freed-UK-instead-deported-6-000-foreign-offenders-currently-roaming-Britain-s-streets-kicked-out.html

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