How come the BBC is not providing any coverage of John Longworth's allegation about pressure on businessmen from No 10??
The news agenda has moved on and landed outside Michael Gove's front door. Chris Grayling trying to play a straight bat on Sky over the Sun's HMQ story but today's press pack will be pressurising everyone from leave to comment. Sky are clearing inferring it was Michael Gove.
If it really was Gove, he'd be in the sticky brown stuff.
Definite resignation from the Privy Council and the cabinet most likely.
The media do seem to be after him this am
Would be a real shame as Gove is shaping up to be the finest Justice Secretary ever.
Roy Jenkins? Undoing all the idiocies of his immediate predecessor is an excellent start but I think he has a bit to go yet.
Edit I appreciate he was not Justice minister as such but nearly all of the current responsibilities fell within his remit as Home Secretary.
I understand but when Gove spoke that prisoners should be seen as assets not liabilities, that really impressed me.
'You post on PB: you are an anorak. You will vote In or Leave.'
Yes people on here pretending to have been swayed one way or the other by various news items really are quite tiresome. I do wonder, do they seriously think that these announced 'conversions' are going to impact the result?
Remainers still going hard on the HMQ story. All the energy is focussing on the leaker, completely failing to undermine the credence of what was actually said in a quest for revenge. Casual observer understands: a) this is the Queen's true opinion, and b) someone's very angry about it.
I know the Leave campaign is a mess, and that Remain will still likely win, but what a highly entertaining and cheering couple of days it's turning into.
How come the BBC is not providing any coverage of John Longworth's allegation about pressure on businessmen from No 10??
The news agenda has moved on and landed outside Michael Gove's front door. Chris Grayling trying to play a straight bat on Sky over the Sun's HMQ story but today's press pack will be pressurising everyone from leave to comment. Sky are clearing inferring it was Michael Gove.
If it really was Gove, he'd be in the sticky brown stuff.
Definite resignation from the Privy Council and the cabinet most likely.
The media do seem to be after him this am
Would be a real shame as Gove is shaping up to be the finest Justice Secretary ever.
I would be disappointed as he is a good Justice Secretary. While I now favour remain following Mark Carney's recent evidence to the select committee I am sure there is a large number of both remain and leave supporters who will want to come together after the 23rd June and who will look to Michael Gove having a big roll in the post referendum cabinet
Mark Carney is an extremely impressive man well worth listening to and he was clear that historically membership of the EU had been in the UK interest. He was, on my reading, very deliberately unclear about whether that would continue to be the case. He indicated that there would be some effect on the City depending on the nature of our new relationship with the EU but indicated that this was minor in the overall scheme of things and mentioned other risks he considered greater.
What was it he said that you found so influential?
Much is made of LEAVE not having an effective leader as such. I wonder whether this is actually as big a deal as the media, etc really like to imagine. I suspect the overwhelming majority will vote according to their instinct/gut feeling about the EU and do not need to be lead by the nose so to speak. After all, one only has to remember that Labour continues to command around 30% of the vote, notwithstanding that it has Jezza Corbyn as its leader. In my own case, it has been the total failure of the UK's so-called re-negotiation process, laughably dressed up by Cameron as having been a huge success which has driven me firmly into the LEAVE camp. I suspect I'm not alone.
'You post on PB: you are an anorak. You will vote In or Leave.'
Yes people on here pretending to have been swayed one way or the other by various news items really are quite tiresome. I do wonder, do they seriously think that these announced 'conversions' are going to impact the result?
I know a couple of people on here have flipped to the other side. TSE was Leave, then Remain and now I think undecided. Philip_Thomson was Remain, now Leave/EFTA-EEA. One could write a whole page about SeanT's position...
Remainers still going hard on the HMQ story. All the energy is focussing on the leaker, completely failing to undermine the credence of what was actually said in a quest for revenge. Casual observer understands: a) this is the Queen's true opinion, and b) someone's very angry about it.
I know the Leave campaign is a mess, and that Remain will still likely win, but what a highly entertaining and cheering couple of days it's turning into.
Mr. 1983, I agree. The (understandable) focus on the leak implies the anger's over the truth coming out, because all the energy is being directed at finding the culprit and none (or very little) towards contesting the claim.
@JamesMcGrory: 150 members of the Royal Society, including Stephen Hawking, or Chris Grayling. Tough to know who to listen to. Who has more gravitas?
Appeals to authority only carry weight if people are talking about their area of expertise. I would never argue with Stephen Hawking about physics, or Alistair Meeks about pensions law, or Richard Tyndall about geology, or David L about Scottish law, because they know these subjects intimately and I don't.
But when it comes to discussing public policy, I feel perfectly at ease to argue with them.
'You post on PB: you are an anorak. You will vote In or Leave.'
Yes people on here pretending to have been swayed one way or the other by various news items really are quite tiresome. I do wonder, do they seriously think that these announced 'conversions' are going to impact the result?
I know a couple of people on here have flipped to the other side. TSE was Leave, then Remain and now I think undecided. Philip_Thomson was Remain, now Leave/EFTA-EEA. One could write a whole page about SeanT's position...
I was an ardent Remainer until last summer, then moved to a likely Leave.
After Dave's deal I was a definitive Leaver.
Then my friend who works in the financial services industry and was an ardent outer flipped sides because of the lack of clarity of what Brexit means coupled with a discussion with Alastair pushed me back to a likely Remainer.
I have to confess the continuity IDS wing of the Tory party who are seeing the referendum as a way of ditching Cameron and undo the Cameroon detoxify project are doing their upmost to make me campaign for Remain.
How come the BBC is not providing any coverage of John Longworth's allegation about pressure on businessmen from No 10??
The news agenda has moved on and landed outside Michael Gove's front door. Chris Grayling trying to play a straight bat on Sky over the Sun's HMQ story but today's press pack will be pressurising everyone from leave to comment. Sky are clearing inferring it was Michael Gove.
If it really was Gove, he'd be in the sticky brown stuff.
Definite resignation from the Privy Council and the cabinet most likely.
The precedent of David Cameron leaking HMQ's purring over SindyRef renders me sceptical that anything at all will happen.
That was different. That was a private conversation, this was a deliberate leak to the media.
Plus that was after the event.
What about deliberatey intimidating businessmen?? No 10 would have no leg to stand on if they tried to go down the ethics in govt route.
@JamesMcGrory: 150 members of the Royal Society, including Stephen Hawking, or Chris Grayling. Tough to know who to listen to. Who has more gravitas?
Depends whether they're talking about their own specialisation. If I wanted an opinion on physics, I'd choose Stephen Hawking. If I wanted an opinion on the political implications of EU membership, I'd choose Chris Grayling. I'm bemused as to how some people are finding that distinction difficult to grasp.
Like I said, I can only put it down to a dumbed down popular culture that does indeed put people into a bizarre 'pecking order' where people who do 'science and shit' are irrefutable on any issue - hence a biologist like Richard Dawkins thinking he can hold forth on whether Hitler was a Catholic or an atheist, and getting away with it.
There are 500 Leave stalls/leaflet drops this weekend. 1 million leaflets were delivered last weekend.
I don't think Leave’s efforts are as awful as claimed by a long way.
Cameron has the enormous advantage of being very credible and PM. So he generates a lot of media attention. The rest of Remain are pretty poor or PR messes like Rose.
Much is made of LEAVE not having an effective leader as such. I wonder whether this is actually as big a deal as the media, etc really like to imagine. I suspect the overwhelming majority will vote according to their instinct/gut feeling about the EU and do not need to be lead by the nose so to speak. After all, one only has to remember that Labour continues to command around 30% of the vote, notwithstanding that it has Jezza Corbyn as its leader. In my own case, it has been the total failure of the UK's so-called re-negotiation process, laughably dressed up by Cameron as having been a huge success which has driven me firmly into the LEAVE camp. I suspect I'm not alone.
Mr. 1983, I agree. The (understandable) focus on the leak implies the anger's over the truth coming out, because all the energy is being directed at finding the culprit and none (or very little) towards contesting the claim.
Claim has also been contested.
The Queen fears Brexit would lead to the break up of the U.K. So she's a Remainer
Remainers still going hard on the HMQ story. All the energy is focussing on the leaker, completely failing to undermine the credence of what was actually said in a quest for revenge. Casual observer understands: a) this is the Queen's true opinion, and b) someone's very angry about it.
I know the Leave campaign is a mess, and that Remain will still likely win, but what a highly entertaining and cheering couple of days it's turning into.
It's all about the proxy battle. If you're voting for Brexit, you're voting for PM Gove.
'You post on PB: you are an anorak. You will vote In or Leave.'
Yes people on here pretending to have been swayed one way or the other by various news items really are quite tiresome. I do wonder, do they seriously think that these announced 'conversions' are going to impact the result?
I know a couple of people on here have flipped to the other side. TSE was Leave, then Remain and now I think undecided. Philip_Thomson was Remain, now Leave/EFTA-EEA. One could write a whole page about SeanT's position...
I was an ardent Remainer until last summer, then moved to a likely Leave.
After Dave's deal I was a definitive Leaver.
Then my friend who works in the financial services industry and was an ardent outer flipped sides because of the lack of clarity of what Brexit means coupled with a discussion with Alastair pushed me back to a likely Remainer.
I have to confess the continuity IDS wing of the Tory party who are seeing the referendum as a way of ditching Cameron and undo the Cameroon detoxify are doing their upmost to make me campaign for Remain.
In 10 years time IDS etc will be footnotes to history - but Junker will be running the Uk from Brussels.
Every day, we get another arm of the establishment pom-pom waving for Remain.
The EU is there to take care of these vested interests, and normally there is nothing we can do about it. However, for the first time in decades, the little guy* has a chance to say Sod You and actually be able to back that up with some collective power. Take the chance, and Vote Leave.
Stephen Hawking is an expert on theoretical physics. If you asked him to sort out your pension arrangements on that basis, you may get a surprise.
Incidentally, my expertise, such as it was, was elsewhere. But expertise doesn't make your judgement correct. It only makes it informed. So when he postulates in black hole physics, he will be worth listening to. But as with all scientist, he is often incorrect. Newton and Einstein made errors. And in theoretical physics - that is especially so.
If I wanted an opinion on physics, I'd choose Stephen Hawking. If I wanted an opinion on the political implications of EU membership, I'd choose Chris Grayling. I'm bemused as to how some people are finding that distinction difficult to grasp.
And Stephen Hawking gave his opinion on the future of physics, not the political implications of EU membership
I'm bemused as to how some people are finding that distinction difficult to grasp.
Mr. Eagles, hope you return to Leave. The City would be subject, obviously, to more EU meddling if we're inside than outside, not to mention the importance of self-determination, accountability of those who pass laws over us, and the opposing long-term interests of the integration-loving eurozone and the UK.
@JamesMcGrory: 150 members of the Royal Society, including Stephen Hawking, or Chris Grayling. Tough to know who to listen to. Who has more gravitas?
So you agree with Hawking then when he said before the last election that Miliband would make the best Prime Minister? Or do you just pick and chose the political issues he is right about as it suits you?
'You post on PB: you are an anorak. You will vote In or Leave.'
Yes people on here pretending to have been swayed one way or the other by various news items really are quite tiresome. I do wonder, do they seriously think that these announced 'conversions' are going to impact the result?
I know a couple of people on here have flipped to the other side. TSE was Leave, then Remain and now I think undecided. Philip_Thomson was Remain, now Leave/EFTA-EEA. One could write a whole page about SeanT's position...
I have to confess the continuity IDS wing of the Tory party who are seeing the referendum as a way of ditching Cameron and undo the Cameroon detoxify project are doing their upmost to make me campaign for Remain.
That would mean playing the man, not the ball. Vote on the issues, not the personalities. I'm on the same side as Farage, and the opposite to most of my party, but so be it.
Mr. 1983, I agree. The (understandable) focus on the leak implies the anger's over the truth coming out, because all the energy is being directed at finding the culprit and none (or very little) towards contesting the claim.
Sorry, but that's rubbish. The story has put the Queen in a very difficult position: and not for the first time. If she vehemently contests the story's basis, then it's open day in future. If you want to know what the Queen feels about something, create a b/s story and wait for the palace's response contesting it.
Besides, the story smells like b/s, and poorly sourced at that. The Sun's headline went far too far.
'You post on PB: you are an anorak. You will vote In or Leave.'
Yes people on here pretending to have been swayed one way or the other by various news items really are quite tiresome. I do wonder, do they seriously think that these announced 'conversions' are going to impact the result?
I know a couple of people on here have flipped to the other side. TSE was Leave, then Remain and now I think undecided. Philip_Thomson was Remain, now Leave/EFTA-EEA. One could write a whole page about SeanT's position...
I was an ardent Remainer until last summer, then moved to a likely Leave.
After Dave's deal I was a definitive Leaver.
Then my friend who works in the financial services industry and was an ardent outer flipped sides because of the lack of clarity of what Brexit means coupled with a discussion with Alastair pushed me back to a likely Remainer.
I have to confess the continuity IDS wing of the Tory party who are seeing the referendum as a way of ditching Cameron and undo the Cameroon detoxify project are doing their upmost to make me campaign for Remain.
Blimey TSE, you used to be indecisive but now you are not so sure?
The lack of clarity about what happens next is by far my biggest concern about Leave. Whilst I am convinced that the EU is progressing down a path that we do not want to follow and that our membership will become increasingly problematic as a result I do want a clear consensus of what the alternative being offered actually is.
I think this is the problem with peter_from_putney's position. The lack of leadership is making spelling out that alternative and coalescing around it very difficult.
Mr. 1983, I agree. The (understandable) focus on the leak implies the anger's over the truth coming out, because all the energy is being directed at finding the culprit and none (or very little) towards contesting the claim.
I'm not sure having the Queen onside makes much difference. If it did it would have been released much nearer the time. It's damaging and embarrassing to the Queen which is why the palace issued their rebuttal-by all accounts a very unusual thing to do.
It's quite likely that the palace are behind the hunt for the culprit. A spitting mad 89 year old isn't to be taken lightly.
Scientists For Britain Royal Society: EU funded (via FP7) just 3% of UK Research and Development between 2007-2013. #UKScienceGoesOn https://t.co/GJWdGicETW
If I wanted an opinion on physics, I'd choose Stephen Hawking. If I wanted an opinion on the political implications of EU membership, I'd choose Chris Grayling. I'm bemused as to how some people are finding that distinction difficult to grasp.
And Stephen Hawking gave his opinion on the future of physics, not the political implications of EU membership
I'm bemused as to how some people are finding that distinction difficult to grasp.
He gave his opinion about the possible impact of future immigration policy on British science. About which, there are plenty of equally well informed people who disagree with him.
'You post on PB: you are an anorak. You will vote In or Leave.'
Yes people on here pretending to have been swayed one way or the other by various news items really are quite tiresome. I do wonder, do they seriously think that these announced 'conversions' are going to impact the result?
I know a couple of people on here have flipped to the other side. TSE was Leave, then Remain and now I think undecided. Philip_Thomson was Remain, now Leave/EFTA-EEA. One could write a whole page about SeanT's position...
I was an ardent Remainer until last summer, then moved to a likely Leave.
After Dave's deal I was a definitive Leaver.
Then my friend who works in the financial services industry and was an ardent outer flipped sides because of the lack of clarity of what Brexit means coupled with a discussion with Alastair pushed me back to a likely Remainer.
I have to confess the continuity IDS wing of the Tory party who are seeing the referendum as a way of ditching Cameron and undo the Cameroon detoxify project are doing their upmost to make me campaign for Remain.
Blimey TSE, you used to be indecisive but now you are not so sure?
The lack of clarity about what happens next is by far my biggest concern about Leave. Whilst I am convinced that the EU is progressing down a path that we do not want to follow and that our membership will become increasingly problematic as a result I do want a clear consensus of what the alternative being offered actually is.
I think this is the problem with peter_from_putney's position. The lack of leadership is making spelling out that alternative and coalescing around it very difficult.
The constant swapping of sides seen by some posters on here is why I cannot see the point in deciding one way or the other until the arguments have been much better aired (yes, I know...). I'm very likely to vote leave, but could be persuaded (or pushed) back over the fence. Given this, what's the point in committing myself when the debate has hardly begun?
I can understand why firm remainers or leavers have made up their mind. For those of us who can somewhat see both sides, it's a far less clear decision. I fear this is hard for some of the committed posters to comprehend.
Your second paragraph outlines why I'll probably vote leave, albeit reluctantly. It's got nothing to do with the lamentable leave campaign.
'You post on PB: you are an anorak. You will vote In or Leave.'
Yes people on here pretending to have been swayed one way or the other by various news items really are quite tiresome. I do wonder, do they seriously think that these announced 'conversions' are going to impact the result?
I know a couple of people on here have flipped to the other side. TSE was Leave, then Remain and now I think undecided. Philip_Thomson was Remain, now Leave/EFTA-EEA. One could write a whole page about SeanT's position...
I was an ardent Remainer until last summer, then moved to a likely Leave.
After Dave's deal I was a definitive Leaver.
Then my friend who works in the financial services industry and was an ardent outer flipped sides because of the lack of clarity of what Brexit means coupled with a discussion with Alastair pushed me back to a likely Remainer.
I have to confess the continuity IDS wing of the Tory party who are seeing the referendum as a way of ditching Cameron and undo the Cameroon detoxify project are doing their upmost to make me campaign for Remain.
Blimey TSE, you used to be indecisive but now you are not so sure?
The lack of clarity about what happens next is by far my biggest concern about Leave. Whilst I am convinced that the EU is progressing down a path that we do not want to follow and that our membership will become increasingly problematic as a result I do want a clear consensus of what the alternative being offered actually is.
I think this is the problem with peter_from_putney's position. The lack of leadership is making spelling out that alternative and coalescing around it very difficult.
60% of our clients are in the Financial Services Sector directly or indirectly. My straw poll has them backing Remain due to the uncertainty of lack of access the single market/passport.
I found Nigel Lawson's attack on Mark Carney illuminating, no substantive criticisms, just an attack on the man.
I take the view that if the EU don't honour their promises we'll have another referendum within a decade and we'll Leave then.
Or do you just pick and chose the political issues he is right about as it suits you?
He wasn't commenting on politics.
Did none of the Brexit cheerleaders actually read the letter?
Yes he was. Did you not read the letter? Funding, freedom of movement and the EU are all political matters. He was making no statement on the mathematical proof for his theory of black holes. Nor was he commenting on the latest state of String Theory research (dead by the way).
He and the other authors were making a direct statement about the impact of leaving the EU on their ability to gain funds and attract people to the discipline. It is a completely political issue with not a single scientific principle in sight.
Just as his support for the claim that Labour did more for Science funding at Cambridge than the Tories was a political intervention.
'You post on PB: you are an anorak. You will vote In or Leave.'
Yes people on here pretending to have been swayed one way or the other by various news items really are quite tiresome. I do wonder, do they seriously think that these announced 'conversions' are going to impact the result?
I know a couple of people on here have flipped to the other side. TSE was Leave, then Remain and now I think undecided. Philip_Thomson was Remain, now Leave/EFTA-EEA. One could write a whole page about SeanT's position...
I have to confess the continuity IDS wing of the Tory party who are seeing the referendum as a way of ditching Cameron and undo the Cameroon detoxify project are doing their upmost to make me campaign for Remain.
That would mean playing the man, not the ball. Vote on the issues, not the personalities. I'm on the same side as Farage, and the opposite to most of my party, but so be it.
Vote leave get rid of Cameron and set the Tory party back 20 years. This may be brilliant for you but I think I will give that one a miss.
He and the other authors were making a direct statement about the impact of leaving the EU on their ability to gain funds and attract people to the discipline.
This has nothing to do with the future of science...
'You post on PB: you are an anorak. You will vote In or Leave.'
Yes people on here pretending to have been swayed one way or the other by various news items really are quite tiresome. I do wonder, do they seriously think that these announced 'conversions' are going to impact the result?
I know a couple of people on here have flipped to the other side. TSE was Leave, then Remain and now I think undecided. Philip_Thomson was Remain, now Leave/EFTA-EEA. One could write a whole page about SeanT's position...
I have to confess the continuity IDS wing of the Tory party who are seeing the referendum as a way of ditching Cameron and undo the Cameroon detoxify project are doing their upmost to make me campaign for Remain.
That would mean playing the man, not the ball. Vote on the issues, not the personalities. I'm on the same side as Farage, and the opposite to most of my party, but so be it.
Vote leave get rid of Cameron and set the Tory party back 20 years. This may be brilliant for you but I think I will give that one a miss.
Voting either way to get rid of or keep Cameron is a fundamentally stupid thing to do. No one is clear on what a Leave or Remain vote would mean for Cameron in terms of how soon he would step down. And the surest way to get wavering Tory voters to back Remain is to make it a vote on Cameron and the Tory Government.
He and the other authors were making a direct statement about the impact of leaving the EU on their ability to gain funds and attract people to the discipline.
This has nothing to do with the future of science...
ROFL
Still digging that hole Scott. So again you agree with Hawking that we should have had a Miliband Government to protect and improve science funding? Or are you picking and choosing his moments of political clarity?
Mr. Eagles, hope you return to Leave. The City would be subject, obviously, to more EU meddling if we're inside than outside, not to mention the importance of self-determination, accountability of those who pass laws over us, and the opposing long-term interests of the integration-loving eurozone and the UK.
And out of the EU how do we get access to a free market in financial services. You with your great intellect know better than the governor of the bank of england? I suppose you think it 'beneath my dignity' to criticise Jacob Rees Mogg.
No doubt others have asked this already: does HM have a vote in the referendum? I know she does not in general elections but is a referendum different.
'You post on PB: you are an anorak. You will vote In or Leave.'
Yes people on here pretending to have been swayed one way or the other by various news items really are quite tiresome. I do wonder, do they seriously think that these announced 'conversions' are going to impact the result?
I know a couple of people on here have flipped to the other side. TSE was Leave, then Remain and now I think undecided. Philip_Thomson was Remain, now Leave/EFTA-EEA. One could write a whole page about SeanT's position...
I have to confess the continuity IDS wing of the Tory party who are seeing the referendum as a way of ditching Cameron and undo the Cameroon detoxify project are doing their upmost to make me campaign for Remain.
That would mean playing the man, not the ball. Vote on the issues, not the personalities. I'm on the same side as Farage, and the opposite to most of my party, but so be it.
Vote leave get rid of Cameron and set the Tory party back 20 years. This may be brilliant for you but I think I will give that one a miss.
"Getting rid of Blair will set the Labour party back 20 years."
New FOX polls giving Kasich a 5% lead in Ohio and Trump 23% lead in Florida.
Having said that a lot of the US polls have been about as accurate as our GE ones so far. In fairness to the pollsters I think there is a lot of volatility in the primary voting at present, particularly amongst the anti-Trump GOP voters.
Mr. Flightpath, it'd be easier replying if you constructed an argument rather than just patronising people who hold a different view.
Negotiating a long-term trade deal would undoubtedly take time. The idea that there would be no trading, either in the immediate or long-term is not credible. We trade with China. The EU has a trade deal with South Korea. The notion either party would want to cut off all trading links or make a deal impossible is not merely defeatist, it's literally incredible.
How come the BBC is not providing any coverage of John Longworth's allegation about pressure on businessmen from No 10??
The news agenda has moved on and landed outside Michael Gove's front door. Chris Grayling trying to play a straight bat on Sky over the Sun's HMQ story but today's press pack will be pressurising everyone from leave to comment. Sky are clearing inferring it was Michael Gove.
If it really was Gove, he'd be in the sticky brown stuff.
Definite resignation from the Privy Council and the cabinet most likely.
The media do seem to be after him this am
Would be a real shame as Gove is shaping up to be the finest Justice Secretary ever.
I would be disappointed as he is a good Justice Secretary. While I now favour remain following Mark Carney's recent evidence to the select committee I am sure there is a large number of both remain and leave supporters who will want to come together after the 23rd June and who will look to Michael Gove having a big roll in the post referendum cabinet
Mark Carney is an extremely impressive man well worth listening to and he was clear that historically membership of the EU had been in the UK interest. He was, on my reading, very deliberately unclear about whether that would continue to be the case. He indicated that there would be some effect on the City depending on the nature of our new relationship with the EU but indicated that this was minor in the overall scheme of things and mentioned other risks he considered greater.
What was it he said that you found so influential?
I was 60/40 remain but he came over as very professional and independent and did comment on how being in the EU had been beneficial to the UK and he endorsed David Cameron's deal. I confess to not being knowledgeable on the ins and outs of the City but he reassured me that we would be safer remaining and that the risks in leaving are greater. Leave has no coherent message at present but some leavers on here have suggested a looser trade deal with some contribution to the EU and acceptance of free movement of labour and if that was the leave position I would vote for it
Appeals to authority are a very weak form of argument, generally. People in authority are as prone to bias and groupthink as anybody else. Make up your own mind.
How lucky we are that a handful of (Brexit) posters know more about the future of science in the UK than 150 Fellows of the Royal Society, Stephen Hawking, three Nobel laureates and the Astronomer Royal.
Excellent from Alistair.Long-term trends work just as well at Cheltenham.The Supreme Novice Hurdle back the 1st 2 in the betting,Tory leadership election circa 2020,lay the 1st 2 in the market.Cheltenham is trends analyst paradise. Depending on your attitude to risk,there is no rule that states you only have to back one horse in any given market or that you can't lay off and take a profit.That's why at long-odds I like the Dutching bet.The Oddschecker calculators on dutching and laying off do all the work for you. On the POTUS market,it's all in the demographics.
'You post on PB: you are an anorak. You will vote In or Leave.'
Yes people on here pretending to have been swayed one way or the other by various news items really are quite tiresome. I do wonder, do they seriously think that these announced 'conversions' are going to impact the result?
I know a couple of people on here have flipped to the other side. TSE was Leave, then Remain and now I think undecided. Philip_Thomson was Remain, now Leave/EFTA-EEA. One could write a whole page about SeanT's position...
EFTA EEA will make very little difference to us compared to the EU. It makes it difficult if not impossible to influence single market rules, not least in banking, but on Leave's big emotive main issue of immigration it makes no difference. If we leave then one big problem would be demands to join Schengen as part of any subsequent deal, plus we have immediately lost any guarantees from the current deal. What we have now is a special status as the rest that want to integrate more closely.
Mr. Eagles, hope you return to Leave. The City would be subject, obviously, to more EU meddling if we're inside than outside, not to mention the importance of self-determination, accountability of those who pass laws over us, and the opposing long-term interests of the integration-loving eurozone and the UK.
Mr Dancer, I've always said I'd vote in what I considered in the best long term economic interests oh the UK.
Now I admire you, and the likes of Casino Royale, Sean Fear and Richard Tyndall who have said they will vote to Leave so the the UK becomes a wholly sovereign country again, I just feel that principle (which I admire and support) comes with too high a price right now.
We're talking about people's jobs and livelihoods.
He and the other authors were making a direct statement about the impact of leaving the EU on their ability to gain funds and attract people to the discipline.
This has nothing to do with the future of science...
ROFL
Still digging that hole Scott. So again you agree with Hawking that we should have had a Miliband Government to protect and improve science funding? Or are you picking and choosing his moments of political clarity?
In my experience any comment ending with "LOL" or "ROFL" is trying to use social cues to overcomr the weakness of logic. Reminds me of Hillary Clinton laughing when dealt difficult questions!!
How lucky we are that a handful of (Brexit) posters know more about the future of science in the UK than 150 Fellows of the Royal Society, Stephen Hawking, three Nobel laureates and the Astronomer Royal.
It's a humbling revelation.
So you agree with Hawking that the future of science would have been better under a Labour government then? It must logically follow that since you support the Tories this means you really don't care about the funding of scientific research.
That is a sad revelation.
By the way in case you missed it appeal to authority is a logical fallacy. You can add it to your long list of other fallacies.
How lucky we are that a handful of (Brexit) posters know more about the future of science in the UK than 150 Fellows of the Royal Society, Stephen Hawking, three Nobel laureates and the Astronomer Royal.
Mr. P, agreeing with someone based on their job or position in society is why cavemen used to do what the shaman suggested. It's why people believed bankers knew what they were doing, or trusted Blair was telling the truth over Iraq.
Happy to debate arguments, but saying "Look, the Big Important People have this opinion, so it is correct" is the line a religious fundamentalist takes. It's blind belief, not a discussion.
Many Big Important People also wanted us to join the eurozone.
I was 60/40 remain but he came over as very professional and independent and did comment on how being in the EU had been beneficial to the UK and he endorsed David Cameron's deal. I confess to not being knowledgeable on the ins and outs of the City but he reassured me that we would be safer remaining and that the risks in leaving are greater. Leave has no coherent message at present but some leavers on here have suggested a looser trade deal with some contribution to the EU and acceptance of free movement of labour and if that was the leave position I would vote for it
I would suggest that is the inevitable position we would adopt if we left the EU. The actual mechanics to get to any other position - which would have to involve Cameron standing down straight away, a general election and a result in which UKIP held the balance of power and additionally their MPs chose to reject an EFTA/EEA deal - is so unlikely as to be not worth considering.
The overwhelming majority of MPs are either outright Remain or EFTA/EEA supporters. The number of MPs who are leave and no EEA deal is tiny. Even the one UKIP MP is an EFTA/EEA advocate.
So as with so many other claims by Remain, the idea that we would choose anything other than an EFTA/EEA deal is frankly daft.
What on earth is Murdoch - or is it someone else? - up to? First the monarch story and now the big Daesh leak.
"Prospective members were asked to provide details of any 'previous jihadist experience'". Were they asked to sign a data protection release too? And how about consenting to "developed vetting"?
Mr. Eagles, I agree in jobs and livelihoods, and if we were making a vote on a 3 year basis, I might well agree with you.
But you know the EU can and will meddle as it can to integrate more, impose regulations on the eurozone which will then affect the City (previously not the case) and that the eurozone has a QMV critical mass.
This is a 10-20 year decision, perhaps longer. The eurozone may rise and fall a little, but the prognosis is still terminal. If we were outside the EU, it would decrease trade with the bloc, but also enable us to make laws/regulations and trade deals better suited to ourselves, and there are far more countries outside the EU than inside.
1 Nuneaton and Bedworth 43 per 1,000 2 Stoke-on-Trent 42.4 per 1,000 3 Tamworth 42 per 1,000 4 North East Lincolnshire 40.8 per 1,000 5 Kingston upon Hull City of 39.3 per 1,000 6 Preston 38.6 per 1,000 7 Sandwell 38.3 per 1,000 8 Norwich 38.1 per 1,000 9 Walsall 37.5 per 1,000 10 Blackpool 37.3 per 1,000
Your second paragraph outlines why I'll probably vote leave, albeit reluctantly. It's got nothing to do with the lamentable leave campaign.
This stems from the basic situation that different groups of people on both sides want to leave/remain for different reasons, and hence want different outcomes.
Some people on leave (the far left) want out of the EU because it's a corporatist undemocratic institution dominated by lobbyists and other enemies of the people. Traditionalist of all political views want to leave the EU because of sovereignty concerns. Free trade libertarians like Messrs RCS1000, Tyndall and myself want out so we can trade freely with the largest market and make our own deals. People further to the right, and those that have been left behind by the modern world want to leave the EU to restrict immigration. All of these have different solutions.
Different groups of people want to stay for different reasons as well, and ultimately probably have differing long term objectives, but ultimately if you are a remainer there is only one way to achieve this which is to stay with the program and make the best fist of it you can.
But it isn't worth Leave debating this for two reasons. Firstly their opponents would like nothing better than them getting into a navel gazing bout of fratricide over exactly where they are going, the whole PFJ/JPF over who leads the out campaign was unedifying enough without starting a second round.
The other reason is quite frankly it doesnt matter want Leave think, Cameron or his successor will be the one that does the deal, which means it will be some sort of EEA/EFTA fudge. Leave could campaign for this, or a full kipper out and go it along, makes no difference. However it is not the job of the wrecking ball to get planning permission for the new buildings to follow.
1 Nuneaton and Bedworth 43 per 1,000 2 Stoke-on-Trent 42.4 per 1,000 3 Tamworth 42 per 1,000 4 North East Lincolnshire 40.8 per 1,000 5 Kingston upon Hull City of 39.3 per 1,000 6 Preston 38.6 per 1,000 7 Sandwell 38.3 per 1,000 8 Norwich 38.1 per 1,000 9 Walsall 37.5 per 1,000 10 Blackpool 37.3 per 1,000
Mr. Eagles, hope you return to Leave. The City would be subject, obviously, to more EU meddling if we're inside than outside, not to mention the importance of self-determination, accountability of those who pass laws over us, and the opposing long-term interests of the integration-loving eurozone and the UK.
Mr Dancer, I've always said I'd vote in what I considered in the best long term economic interests oh the UK.
Now I admire you, and the likes of Casino Royale, Sean Fear and Richard Tyndall who have said they will vote to Leave so the the UK becomes a wholly sovereign country again, I just feel that principle (which I admire and support) comes with too high a price right now.
We're talking about people's jobs and livelihoods.
And I honestly believe that they will not lose either their jobs or their livelihoods because of it. Indeed as someone who works extensively around Europe, if what you fear were correct I would be cutting my own throat.
How lucky we are that a handful of (Brexit) posters know more about the future of science in the UK than 150 Fellows of the Royal Society, Stephen Hawking, three Nobel laureates and the Astronomer Royal.
It's a humbling revelation.
Hawking is probably worried his Ukrainian "nurse" won't get her visa stamped.
'You post on PB: you are an anorak. You will vote In or Leave.'
Yes people on here pretending to have been swayed one way or the other by various news items really are quite tiresome. I do wonder, do they seriously think that these announced 'conversions' are going to impact the result?
I know a couple of people on here have flipped to the other side. TSE was Leave, then Remain and now I think undecided. Philip_Thomson was Remain, now Leave/EFTA-EEA. One could write a whole page about SeanT's position...
EFTA EEA will make very little difference to us compared to the EU. It makes it difficult if not impossible to influence single market rules, not least in banking, but on Leave's big emotive main issue of immigration it makes no difference. If we leave then one big problem would be demands to join Schengen as part of any subsequent deal, plus we have immediately lost any guarantees from the current deal. What we have now is a special status as the rest that want to integrate more closely.
And Flightpath brings out his EFTA/EEA tropes again. No matter how many times you repeat these myths they still don't get any more real you know.
The rest of us are enjoying pointing out your intellectual shortcomings.
Oh dear. And round we go again...
It has been vastly entertaining trying to follow the tortured logic of the Brexiteers this morning.
Switzerland is outside the EU, and very wealthy, say the Brexiteers
Switzerland has a problem recruiting World class researchers in science, say 150 Fellows of the Royal Society, Stephen Hawking, three Nobel laureates and the Astronomer Royal
If we left the EU, we might have the same recruitment problem as Switzerland, say 150 Fellows of the Royal Society, Stephen Hawking, three Nobel laureates and the Astronomer Royal
Ah, say the Brexiteers, we could solve any recruitment problem because we would be very wealthy, like Switzerland.
I'm curious when, as a nation, we began to lose our self confidence. So many people seem terrified of not being governed, they continually need to be told what to do and when. That is such a Marxist mindset, a society where individual decisions are removed and replaced by the greater good, in this case the EU. I understand why socialists think that way, they naively believe in equality etc but for conservative voters to be scaremongering about our lack of ability to stand on our own two feet is bewildering.
Its the resignation I find so frustrating, the acceptance that we can't survive without being regulated by other people. I dislike government, I loathe undemocratic, unaccountable people taking decisions that affect my life. If I fuck up I'll live with it, I'm not happy when others do it for me. This referendum is about a mindset, a once in a generation opportunity to send a message, immigration, EFTA, human rights, trade etc etc are neither here nor there.
Politicians are a bad thing, they start wars, pass stupid laws, steal our money, condescend us, by voting OUT we remove thousands of them
'You post on PB: you are an anorak. You will vote In or Leave.'
Yes people on here pretending to have been swayed one way or the other by various news items really are quite tiresome. I do wonder, do they seriously think that these announced 'conversions' are going to impact the result?
I know a couple of people on here have flipped to the other side. TSE was Leave, then Remain and now I think undecided. Philip_Thomson was Remain, now Leave/EFTA-EEA. One could write a whole page about SeanT's position...
EFTA EEA will make very little difference to us compared to the EU. It makes it difficult if not impossible to influence single market rules, not least in banking, but on Leave's big emotive main issue of immigration it makes no difference. If we leave then one big problem would be demands to join Schengen as part of any subsequent deal, plus we have immediately lost any guarantees from the current deal. What we have now is a special status as the rest that want to integrate more closely.
And we still have to implement the 90% of EU law which we wouldn't have to in the EEA, a minor detail you CONTINUE to gloss over...
and we would continue to be under the jurisdiction of the federalising ECJ, you keep forgetting to mention that as well...
and we would continue to have to apply EU regulations and standards to 100% of our exports despite only 21% of the going to the EU, somehow you forget that bit as well...
and we can make free trade agreement with who ever we want, which is significant since the EU has failed to make a FTA with just about all the major trading nations in the world, but somehow you keep failing to mention that as will
At least ScottP cut and pastes new stuff, for some reason you seem to cut and paste the same old crap without listening to what anyone else says.
How lucky we are that a handful of (Brexit) posters know more about the future of science in the UK than 150 Fellows of the Royal Society, Stephen Hawking, three Nobel laureates and the Astronomer Royal.
It's a humbling revelation.
Hawking is probably worried his Ukrainian "nurse" won't get her visa stamped.
Mr. Eagles, hope you return to Leave. The City would be subject, obviously, to more EU meddling if we're inside than outside, not to mention the importance of self-determination, accountability of those who pass laws over us, and the opposing long-term interests of the integration-loving eurozone and the UK.
Mr Dancer, I've always said I'd vote in what I considered in the best long term economic interests oh the UK.
Now I admire you, and the likes of Casino Royale, Sean Fear and Richard Tyndall who have said they will vote to Leave so the the UK becomes a wholly sovereign country again, I just feel that principle (which I admire and support) comes with too high a price right now.
We're talking about people's jobs and livelihoods.
And I honestly believe that they will not lose either their jobs or their livelihoods because of it. Indeed as someone who works extensively around Europe, if what you fear were correct I would be cutting my own throat.
I know, but from my profession and sectors I work with, there's not that belief, they see Brexit without a definitive plan in place for what Brexit means is a risk.
I was 60/40 remain but he came over as very professional and independent and did comment on how being in the EU had been beneficial to the UK and he endorsed David Cameron's deal. I confess to not being knowledgeable on the ins and outs of the City but he reassured me that we would be safer remaining and that the risks in leaving are greater. Leave has no coherent message at present but some leavers on here have suggested a looser trade deal with some contribution to the EU and acceptance of free movement of labour and if that was the leave position I would vote for it
I would suggest that is the inevitable position we would adopt if we left the EU. The actual mechanics to get to any other position - which would have to involve Cameron standing down straight away, a general election and a result in which UKIP held the balance of power and additionally their MPs chose to reject an EFTA/EEA deal - is so unlikely as to be not worth considering.
The overwhelming majority of MPs are either outright Remain or EFTA/EEA supporters. The number of MPs who are leave and no EEA deal is tiny. Even the one UKIP MP is an EFTA/EEA advocate.
So as with so many other claims by Remain, the idea that we would choose anything other than an EFTA/EEA deal is frankly daft.
Well the other point is that in a 55:45 vote to Leave, everyone saying that getting a deal which includes freedom of movement would be a "betrayal" of the 55%, we also have to take into account that almost half of the country voted to remain and are clearly happy with freedom of movement, given that there are people like us in the Leave camp one has to surmise that over 50% of people support freedom of movement.
I think a Leave vote will have to be followed by another referendum in which two options are put forward:
1. WTO rules - no single market, no freedom of movement
2. EEA/EFTA rules - single market, four freedoms
There seems to be literally zero appetite from the EU to give any country which leaves three out of the four freedoms, or any number less than four out of four. AIUI they would rather abide by WTO rules and have the UK government collect a couple of billion in tariffs on their surplus.
1 Nuneaton and Bedworth 43 per 1,000 2 Stoke-on-Trent 42.4 per 1,000 3 Tamworth 42 per 1,000 4 North East Lincolnshire 40.8 per 1,000 5 Kingston upon Hull City of 39.3 per 1,000 6 Preston 38.6 per 1,000 7 Sandwell 38.3 per 1,000 8 Norwich 38.1 per 1,000 9 Walsall 37.5 per 1,000 10 Blackpool 37.3 per 1,000
The rest of us are enjoying pointing out your intellectual shortcomings.
Oh dear. And round we go again...
It has been vastly entertaining trying to follow the tortured logic of the Brexiteers this morning.
Switzerland is outside the EU, and very wealthy, say the Brexiteers
Switzerland has a problem recruiting World class researchers in science, say 150 Fellows of the Royal Society, Stephen Hawking, three Nobel laureates and the Astronomer Royal
If we left the EU, we might have the same recruitment problem as Switzerland, say 150 Fellows of the Royal Society, Stephen Hawking, three Nobel laureates and the Astronomer Royal
Ah, say the Brexiteers, we could solve any recruitment problem because we would be very wealthy, like Switzerland.
Oh, wait...
When have I mentioned Switzerland at any time this morning? Actually when have I advocated Switzerland as a model for anything regarding the EU?
Strawman arguments are another logical fallacy. Add one to your collection.
1 Nuneaton and Bedworth 43 per 1,000 2 Stoke-on-Trent 42.4 per 1,000 3 Tamworth 42 per 1,000 4 North East Lincolnshire 40.8 per 1,000 5 Kingston upon Hull City of 39.3 per 1,000 6 Preston 38.6 per 1,000 7 Sandwell 38.3 per 1,000 8 Norwich 38.1 per 1,000 9 Walsall 37.5 per 1,000 10 Blackpool 37.3 per 1,000
Mr. Eagles, hope you return to Leave. The City would be subject, obviously, to more EU meddling if we're inside than outside, not to mention the importance of self-determination, accountability of those who pass laws over us, and the opposing long-term interests of the integration-loving eurozone and the UK.
Mr Dancer, I've always said I'd vote in what I considered in the best long term economic interests oh the UK.
Now I admire you, and the likes of Casino Royale, Sean Fear and Richard Tyndall who have said they will vote to Leave so the the UK becomes a wholly sovereign country again, I just feel that principle (which I admire and support) comes with too high a price right now.
We're talking about people's jobs and livelihoods.
I think the issue is that it is now or never, the cost of separation is never going to be zero. If we vote to remain we set ourselves down the path of the European superstate, eventually it will be 1 EMU country with 27 regions and us. I don't like the idea of that and the cost of separation at that point will be even higher.
If I wanted an opinion on physics, I'd choose Stephen Hawking. If I wanted an opinion on the political implications of EU membership, I'd choose Chris Grayling. I'm bemused as to how some people are finding that distinction difficult to grasp.
And Stephen Hawking gave his opinion on the future of physics, not the political implications of EU membership
I'm bemused as to how some people are finding that distinction difficult to grasp.
You seem to think citing Stephen Hawking's name, by itself, is a slam dunk.
Mr. Eagles, I agree in jobs and livelihoods, and if we were making a vote on a 3 year basis, I might well agree with you.
But you know the EU can and will meddle as it can to integrate more, impose regulations on the eurozone which will then affect the City (previously not the case) and that the eurozone has a QMV critical mass.
This is a 10-20 year decision, perhaps longer. The eurozone may rise and fall a little, but the prognosis is still terminal. If we were outside the EU, it would decrease trade with the bloc, but also enable us to make laws/regulations and trade deals better suited to ourselves, and there are far more countries outside the EU than inside.
Why is this a 10-20 year decision. The EU is in a period of huge change with different nations having very divergent views and very unpredictable elections in Germany and France next year. If we remain we will be at the table but if there is an attempt to subvert the UK agreement or the EU make unacceptable changes in the future the UK would be able to hold a second referendum at that time. Nothing is for ever
I was 60/40 remain but he came over as very professional and independent and did comment on how being in the EU had been beneficial to the UK and he endorsed David Cameron's deal. I confess to not being knowledgeable on the ins and outs of the City but he reassured me that we would be safer remaining and that the risks in leaving are greater. Leave has no coherent message at present but some leavers on here have suggested a looser trade deal with some contribution to the EU and acceptance of free movement of labour and if that was the leave position I would vote for it
I would suggest that is the inevitable position we would adopt if we left the EU. The actual mechanics to get to any other position - which would have to involve Cameron standing down straight away, a general election and a result in which UKIP held the balance of power and additionally their MPs chose to reject an EFTA/EEA deal - is so unlikely as to be not worth considering.
The overwhelming majority of MPs are either outright Remain or EFTA/EEA supporters. The number of MPs who are leave and no EEA deal is tiny. Even the one UKIP MP is an EFTA/EEA advocate.
So as with so many other claims by Remain, the idea that we would choose anything other than an EFTA/EEA deal is frankly daft.
Well the other point is that in a 55:45 vote to Leave, everyone saying that getting a deal which includes freedom of movement would be a "betrayal" of the 55%, we also have to take into account that almost half of the country voted to remain and are clearly happy with freedom of movement, given that there are people like us in the Leave camp one has to surmise that over 50% of people support freedom of movement.
I think a Leave vote will have to be followed by another referendum in which two options are put forward:
1. WTO rules - no single market, no freedom of movement
2. EEA/EFTA rules - single market, four freedoms
There seems to be literally zero appetite from the EU to give any country which leaves three out of the four freedoms, or any number less than four out of four. AIUI they would rather abide by WTO rules and have the UK government collect a couple of billion in tariffs on their surplus.
I am talking of practicality. Show me a realistic path by which we get from a Leave vote to a WTO based relationship with the EU (as opposed to an EFTA/EEA relationship) in the next 4 years with the current political situation in Parliament.
Leave are barely managing to creep a few polling leads even now. Given that there will be a large portion of the Leave advocates - of which I am one - who will then align with the Government for an EEA deal, how on earth do you expect to ever get enough support for a non EEA deal?
Comments
And so did this
http://m.huffpost.com/uk/entry/9076940
Yes people on here pretending to have been swayed one way or the other by various news items really are quite tiresome. I do wonder, do they seriously think that these announced 'conversions' are going to impact the result?
I know the Leave campaign is a mess, and that Remain will still likely win, but what a highly entertaining and cheering couple of days it's turning into.
What was it he said that you found so influential?
I suspect the overwhelming majority will vote according to their instinct/gut feeling about the EU and do not need to be lead by the nose so to speak. After all, one only has to remember that Labour continues to command around 30% of the vote, notwithstanding that it has Jezza Corbyn as its leader.
In my own case, it has been the total failure of the UK's so-called re-negotiation process, laughably dressed up by Cameron as having been a huge success which has driven me firmly into the LEAVE camp. I suspect I'm not alone.
Who next? God?
As you note, the impact has been made.
Mr. 1983, I agree. The (understandable) focus on the leak implies the anger's over the truth coming out, because all the energy is being directed at finding the culprit and none (or very little) towards contesting the claim.
But when it comes to discussing public policy, I feel perfectly at ease to argue with them.
An old tradition being revived...the people set to rise up in favour of their sovereign and against her corrupt and evil counsellors...
After Dave's deal I was a definitive Leaver.
Then my friend who works in the financial services industry and was an ardent outer flipped sides because of the lack of clarity of what Brexit means coupled with a discussion with Alastair pushed me back to a likely Remainer.
I have to confess the continuity IDS wing of the Tory party who are seeing the referendum as a way of ditching Cameron and undo the Cameroon detoxify project are doing their upmost to make me campaign for Remain.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-35770909
Still sitting in the top 5 most read stories on the BBC website
Like I said, I can only put it down to a dumbed down popular culture that does indeed put people into a bizarre 'pecking order' where people who do 'science and shit' are irrefutable on any issue - hence a biologist like Richard Dawkins thinking he can hold forth on whether Hitler was a Catholic or an atheist, and getting away with it.
I don't think Leave’s efforts are as awful as claimed by a long way.
Cameron has the enormous advantage of being very credible and PM. So he generates a lot of media attention. The rest of Remain are pretty poor or PR messes like Rose.
The Queen fears Brexit would lead to the break up of the U.K. So she's a Remainer
Iceland PM: We are ready to open trade talks with UK when it leaves an increasingly German-dominated EU #LeaveEU
The guy who (probably) pwned the queen.
Think big picture.
The EU is there to take care of these vested interests, and normally there is nothing we can do about it. However, for the first time in decades, the little guy* has a chance to say Sod You and actually be able to back that up with some collective power. Take the chance, and Vote Leave.
*In a gender-neutral sense.
I guess the X factor argument isn't sticking.
There';s aguy in my factory says we;re betterr off out. He's got qualifications too - forklift truck drivers licence.
if I set his vote against Prof Hawking I reckon we're all square.
Stephen Hawking is an expert on theoretical physics. If you asked him to sort out your pension arrangements on that basis, you may get a surprise.
Incidentally, my expertise, such as it was, was elsewhere. But expertise doesn't make your judgement correct. It only makes it informed. So when he postulates in black hole physics, he will be worth listening to. But as with all scientist, he is often incorrect. Newton and Einstein made errors. And in theoretical physics - that is especially so.
I'm bemused as to how some people are finding that distinction difficult to grasp.
Con 36 Lab 32 LD 7 UKIP 16 Others 10
Another online poll panel packed with UKIP supporters who do not vote in real elections .
Besides, the story smells like b/s, and poorly sourced at that. The Sun's headline went far too far.
It'll be interesting to see how this develops.
The lack of clarity about what happens next is by far my biggest concern about Leave. Whilst I am convinced that the EU is progressing down a path that we do not want to follow and that our membership will become increasingly problematic as a result I do want a clear consensus of what the alternative being offered actually is.
I think this is the problem with peter_from_putney's position. The lack of leadership is making spelling out that alternative and coalescing around it very difficult.
Did none of the Brexit cheerleaders actually read the letter?
It's quite likely that the palace are behind the hunt for the culprit. A spitting mad 89 year old isn't to be taken lightly.
Royal Society: EU funded (via FP7) just 3% of UK Research and Development between 2007-2013. #UKScienceGoesOn https://t.co/GJWdGicETW
Evidence taken from Royal Society Report (Dec 2015): https://t.co/5Psp1KaN2b
Oh please - you are just embarrassing yourself now.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/celebritynews/12188892/jk-rowling-twitter-backlash-cultural-appropriation-harry-potter-pottermore.html
UK commercial activity growth strongest in 4 months, sentiment improves. More here https://t.co/p6rYBzY0Pa https://t.co/J1ej2CGKpu
I can understand why firm remainers or leavers have made up their mind. For those of us who can somewhat see both sides, it's a far less clear decision. I fear this is hard for some of the committed posters to comprehend.
Your second paragraph outlines why I'll probably vote leave, albeit reluctantly. It's got nothing to do with the lamentable leave campaign.
I found Nigel Lawson's attack on Mark Carney illuminating, no substantive criticisms, just an attack on the man.
I take the view that if the EU don't honour their promises we'll have another referendum within a decade and we'll Leave then.
He and the other authors were making a direct statement about the impact of leaving the EU on their ability to gain funds and attract people to the discipline. It is a completely political issue with not a single scientific principle in sight.
Just as his support for the claim that Labour did more for Science funding at Cambridge than the Tories was a political intervention.
Another Scott_P fail.
This may be brilliant for you but I think I will give that one a miss.
The number of D/K's is creeping up except with UKIP.
ROFL
You can respect Professor Hawking as a theoretical physicist. That doesn't mean ... this is getting silly, isn't it?
Off to discuss relativity with a slug.
Oh wait..
Having said that a lot of the US polls have been about as accurate as our GE ones so far. In fairness to the pollsters I think there is a lot of volatility in the primary voting at present, particularly amongst the anti-Trump GOP voters.
Negotiating a long-term trade deal would undoubtedly take time. The idea that there would be no trading, either in the immediate or long-term is not credible. We trade with China. The EU has a trade deal with South Korea. The notion either party would want to cut off all trading links or make a deal impossible is not merely defeatist, it's literally incredible.
How lucky we are that a handful of (Brexit) posters know more about the future of science in the UK than 150 Fellows of the Royal Society, Stephen Hawking, three Nobel laureates and the Astronomer Royal.
It's a humbling revelation.
Depending on your attitude to risk,there is no rule that states you only have to back one horse in any given market or that you can't lay off and take a profit.That's why at long-odds I like the Dutching bet.The Oddschecker calculators on dutching and laying off do all the work for you.
On the POTUS market,it's all in the demographics.
If we leave then one big problem would be demands to join Schengen as part of any subsequent deal, plus we have immediately lost any guarantees from the current deal.
What we have now is a special status as the rest that want to integrate more closely.
Now I admire you, and the likes of Casino Royale, Sean Fear and Richard Tyndall who have said they will vote to Leave so the the UK becomes a wholly sovereign country again, I just feel that principle (which I admire and support) comes with too high a price right now.
We're talking about people's jobs and livelihoods.
That is a sad revelation.
By the way in case you missed it appeal to authority is a logical fallacy. You can add it to your long list of other fallacies.
I wonder why?
Happy to debate arguments, but saying "Look, the Big Important People have this opinion, so it is correct" is the line a religious fundamentalist takes. It's blind belief, not a discussion.
Many Big Important People also wanted us to join the eurozone.
The overwhelming majority of MPs are either outright Remain or EFTA/EEA supporters. The number of MPs who are leave and no EEA deal is tiny. Even the one UKIP MP is an EFTA/EEA advocate.
So as with so many other claims by Remain, the idea that we would choose anything other than an EFTA/EEA deal is frankly daft.
"Prospective members were asked to provide details of any 'previous jihadist experience'". Were they asked to sign a data protection release too? And how about consenting to "developed vetting"?
But you know the EU can and will meddle as it can to integrate more, impose regulations on the eurozone which will then affect the City (previously not the case) and that the eurozone has a QMV critical mass.
This is a 10-20 year decision, perhaps longer. The eurozone may rise and fall a little, but the prognosis is still terminal. If we were outside the EU, it would decrease trade with the bloc, but also enable us to make laws/regulations and trade deals better suited to ourselves, and there are far more countries outside the EU than inside.
Some people on leave (the far left) want out of the EU because it's a corporatist undemocratic institution dominated by lobbyists and other enemies of the people. Traditionalist of all political views want to leave the EU because of sovereignty concerns. Free trade libertarians like Messrs RCS1000, Tyndall and myself want out so we can trade freely with the largest market and make our own deals. People further to the right, and those that have been left behind by the modern world want to leave the EU to restrict immigration. All of these have different solutions.
Different groups of people want to stay for different reasons as well, and ultimately probably have differing long term objectives, but ultimately if you are a remainer there is only one way to achieve this which is to stay with the program and make the best fist of it you can.
But it isn't worth Leave debating this for two reasons. Firstly their opponents would like nothing better than them getting into a navel gazing bout of fratricide over exactly where they are going, the whole PFJ/JPF over who leads the out campaign was unedifying enough without starting a second round.
The other reason is quite frankly it doesnt matter want Leave think, Cameron or his successor will be the one that does the deal, which means it will be some sort of EEA/EFTA fudge. Leave could campaign for this, or a full kipper out and go it along, makes no difference. However it is not the job of the wrecking ball to get planning permission for the new buildings to follow.
It has been vastly entertaining trying to follow the tortured logic of the Brexiteers this morning.
Switzerland is outside the EU, and very wealthy, say the Brexiteers
Switzerland has a problem recruiting World class researchers in science, say 150 Fellows of the Royal Society, Stephen Hawking, three Nobel laureates and the Astronomer Royal
If we left the EU, we might have the same recruitment problem as Switzerland, say 150 Fellows of the Royal Society, Stephen Hawking, three Nobel laureates and the Astronomer Royal
Ah, say the Brexiteers, we could solve any recruitment problem because we would be very wealthy, like Switzerland.
Oh, wait...
Its the resignation I find so frustrating, the acceptance that we can't survive without being regulated by other people. I dislike government, I loathe undemocratic, unaccountable people taking decisions that affect my life. If I fuck up I'll live with it, I'm not happy when others do it for me. This referendum is about a mindset, a once in a generation opportunity to send a message, immigration, EFTA, human rights, trade etc etc are neither here nor there.
Politicians are a bad thing, they start wars, pass stupid laws, steal our money, condescend us, by voting OUT we remove thousands of them
and we would continue to be under the jurisdiction of the federalising ECJ, you keep forgetting to mention that as well...
and we would continue to have to apply EU regulations and standards to 100% of our exports despite only 21% of the going to the EU, somehow you forget that bit as well...
and we can make free trade agreement with who ever we want, which is significant since the EU has failed to make a FTA with just about all the major trading nations in the world, but somehow you keep failing to mention that as will
At least ScottP cut and pastes new stuff, for some reason you seem to cut and paste the same old crap without listening to what anyone else says.
I think a Leave vote will have to be followed by another referendum in which two options are put forward:
1. WTO rules - no single market, no freedom of movement
2. EEA/EFTA rules - single market, four freedoms
There seems to be literally zero appetite from the EU to give any country which leaves three out of the four freedoms, or any number less than four out of four. AIUI they would rather abide by WTO rules and have the UK government collect a couple of billion in tariffs on their surplus.
Nuneaton will always bring back happy memories for me.
Strawman arguments are another logical fallacy. Add one to your collection.
For reasons unconnected with that table, I hope.
Stephen Hawking is a lifelong socialist.
Andrew Sparrow
Cameron says he plans to stand for election again as an MP in 2020 after he stops being PM - https://t.co/DGOoTOf3Hb
Leave are barely managing to creep a few polling leads even now. Given that there will be a large portion of the Leave advocates - of which I am one - who will then align with the Government for an EEA deal, how on earth do you expect to ever get enough support for a non EEA deal?