politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Now Labour’s divisions are being talked about as being “a P

Fallout from it? It's barely even happened at all, what's there to be fallout from?

Maybe I'm just naiive, but when given a free vote the MPs mostly backed their leader's position, and I don't think he's as isolated there now as we think, even if senior figures are thin on the ground.

I have a special avatar which is only to be used on special occasions this year....

As I mentioned before, since Corbyn's enemies would have declared war on him on even the smallest pretext, it's better to cull the lot in the shadow cabinet in one blow.
After all they have already declared war, they never cared if Corbyn would keep Benn or not (as the Dugher issue shows), they just want to fight him at all costs.

This is turning into a moment for Corbyn.

One can picture the scene. "If we get rid of that tory bastard Benn 8 other tories are going to walk from the shadow cabinet. We can't do it comrades."

"But we need to be seen to be doing something or we will look ridiculous" (self awareness not being a strong point).

"Who can we sack that not many people really care about? That fifth columnist Dugher, he doesn't have many friends and no one knows what the department of Culture does anyway. Let's sack him. That'll show we mean business and are not to be messed with."

"Who can replace him? How the hell do I know? That is tomorrow's problem."

Cyclefree said:

If I or my daughter were assaulted by rapists and the police refused to or failed to take any action against the attackers, I would take my own revenge on them. I would be quite capable of killing anyone who harmed my daughter.

If the state fails in its most basic task - as Germany would appear to have done, first, by letting such people in; second, failing to protect its citizens from criminals; and thirdly, failing to bring such criminals to justice - then it should not be surprised if citizens take the law into their own hands.

The Germans should be reminded of the outrage they and the rest of us felt when we learnt of the mass rapes of Bosnian Muslim women by Serbs during the Yugoslav civil wars. They should be equally outraged if the same crimes are perpetrated on them.

The protection of women from what is a most horrible crime is not some optional nice-to-have. Sadly, this seems to be a lesson which needs to be taught every few years.

It is often said that all political careers end in failure. Merkel looked like she might be an exception.

Until now.

For all her undoubted successes and brilliant management of the German economy she is going to be remembered for the mistakes she has made on immigration and the consequences for her own people.

Cyclefree said:

If I or my daughter were assaulted by rapists and the police refused to or failed to take any action against the attackers, I would take my own revenge on them. I would be quite capable of killing anyone who harmed my daughter.

If the state fails in its most basic task - as Germany would appear to have done, first, by letting such people in; second, failing to protect its citizens from criminals; and thirdly, failing to bring such criminals to justice - then it should not be surprised if citizens take the law into their own hands.

The Germans should be reminded of the outrage they and the rest of us felt when we learnt of the mass rapes of Bosnian Muslim women by Serbs during the Yugoslav civil wars. They should be equally outraged if the same crimes are perpetrated on them.

The protection of women from what is a most horrible crime is not some optional nice-to-have. Sadly, this seems to be a lesson which needs to be taught every few years.

It should be a lesson we need only learn once. I wouldn't blame you. If my partner were assaulted in this manner and the police turned a blind eye I would be looking to take the law into my own hands. If the government and the police are not there to protect people from crime of the worst type then why even bother having them.

Cultural sensitivity is a complete bullshit phrase that needs to be stamped on and thrown out of our vocabulary. I'm not going to be sensitive towards those who have an inferior culture to our own.

Cyclefree said:

If I or my daughter were assaulted by rapists and the police refused to or failed to take any action against the attackers, I would take my own revenge on them. I would be quite capable of killing anyone who harmed my daughter.

If the state fails in its most basic task - as Germany would appear to have done, first, by letting such people in; second, failing to protect its citizens from criminals; and thirdly, failing to bring such criminals to justice - then it should not be surprised if citizens take the law into their own hands.

The Germans should be reminded of the outrage they and the rest of us felt when we learnt of the mass rapes of Bosnian Muslim women by Serbs during the Yugoslav civil wars. They should be equally outraged if the same crimes are perpetrated on them.

The protection of women from what is a most horrible crime is not some optional nice-to-have. Sadly, this seems to be a lesson which needs to be taught every few years.

The response will be the same as that to the Libyans who behaved similarly here - "not really their fault for not knowing our laws".

The obvious response is for all women to wear a tent, and only go out in the company of male relative.

Casino_Royale said:

I've said it before and I'll say it again: Merkel will go down in history as one of the worst Western leaders of the early 21st Century.

I'm hoping that the CDU commit suicide and keep her there for 2017. The SPD is already down in the dumps and they are being whittled away by the greens and left party. Hopefully AfD can begin to make real inroads into the CDU share so the cosy grand coalition will be impossible in 2017.

notme said:

RodCrosby said:

Sky News showing report that ISIS have discovered a way to re-activate obsolete SAM missiles...

Former Chief of RAF says: "we're now in a different ballpark. There are hundreds of thousands of these things lying around, on scrapheaps..."

Seems a bit unlikely. Getting rockets to work, is well, rocket science. They need exceptional maintenance to keep them in top condition. If they arent in top condition they'll kill more of your own side than the enemy.

Are we to believe that ISIS has the infrastructure and capacity to reactivate and retrofit these on a large scale? The failure rate if experts were doing it would be 75% at best.

I haven't seen the report, so might well be on totally the wrong tangent: might they have got hold of some old stock from a weapons dealer that, whilst nominally not working, could be renovated?

The chances of such changes working seem fairly remote and as you say, might blow up more of their own people than the enemy. Also, I'd be dubious about the electronics if they have not been stored well.

Cyclefree said:

If I or my daughter were assaulted by rapists and the police refused to or failed to take any action against the attackers, I would take my own revenge on them. I would be quite capable of killing anyone who harmed my daughter.

If the state fails in its most basic task - as Germany would appear to have done, first, by letting such people in; second, failing to protect its citizens from criminals; and thirdly, failing to bring such criminals to justice - then it should not be surprised if citizens take the law into their own hands.

The Germans should be reminded of the outrage they and the rest of us felt when we learnt of the mass rapes of Bosnian Muslim women by Serbs during the Yugoslav civil wars. They should be equally outraged if the same crimes are perpetrated on them.

The protection of women from what is a most horrible crime is not some optional nice-to-have. Sadly, this seems to be a lesson which needs to be taught every few years.

If (and it's a whoppingly large if) this leads to irresistible public pressure on Merkel to change her policy (and I'm not holding my breath) then perhaps some good may come from it.

But i fear it will take much tougher measures than I think she is willing to politically accept to stop the migration flows in their tracks now.

She has opened Pandora's box.

JosiasJessop said:

notme said:

RodCrosby said:

Sky News showing report that ISIS have discovered a way to re-activate obsolete SAM missiles...

Former Chief of RAF says: "we're now in a different ballpark. There are hundreds of thousands of these things lying around, on scrapheaps..."

Seems a bit unlikely. Getting rockets to work, is well, rocket science. They need exceptional maintenance to keep them in top condition. If they arent in top condition they'll kill more of your own side than the enemy.

Are we to believe that ISIS has the infrastructure and capacity to reactivate and retrofit these on a large scale? The failure rate if experts were doing it would be 75% at best.

I haven't seen the report, so might well be on totally the wrong tangent: might they have got hold of some old stock from a weapons dealer that, whilst nominally not working, could be renovated?

The chances of such changes working seem fairly remote and as you say, might blow up more of their own people than the enemy. Also, I'd be dubious about the electronics if they have not been stored well.

You are not factoring in asymmetric warfare. Even the possibility that one of our elderly fighter bombers might be brought down by one of these things, however remote, will have a material effect on our already vanishingly modest contribution to the effort.

As I said at the time the vote on bombing in Syria was the largest amount of self important delusional piffle that our frankly weird ruling class has come up with for a while. Warfare by gesture to make us feel good and important. Sad and pathetic really.

MaxPB said:

Cyclefree said:

If I or my daughter were assaulted by rapists and the police refused to or failed to take any action against the attackers, I would take my own revenge on them. I would be quite capable of killing anyone who harmed my daughter.

If the state fails in its most basic task - as Germany would appear to have done, first, by letting such people in; second, failing to protect its citizens from criminals; and thirdly, failing to bring such criminals to justice - then it should not be surprised if citizens take the law into their own hands.

The Germans should be reminded of the outrage they and the rest of us felt when we learnt of the mass rapes of Bosnian Muslim women by Serbs during the Yugoslav civil wars. They should be equally outraged if the same crimes are perpetrated on them.

The protection of women from what is a most horrible crime is not some optional nice-to-have. Sadly, this seems to be a lesson which needs to be taught every few years.

It should be a lesson we need only learn once. I wouldn't blame you. If my partner were assaulted in this manner and the police turned a blind eye I would be looking to take the law into my own hands. If the government and the police are not there to protect people from crime of the worst type then why even bother having them.

Cultural sensitivity is a complete bullshit phrase that needs to be stamped on and thrown out of our vocabulary. I'm not going to be sensitive towards those who have an inferior culture to our own.

This is exactly how far-right parties take off.

You'd have thought the Germans, of all peoples, would understand that.

@Roger

'Whether Cologne is the same I don't know but if it is it would explain why the reaction there isn't as hysterical as it is on here'


Cologne was (until medieval man arrived) a very pleasant mid sized German city with its massive cathedral that somehow avoided the allied bombing, there is no red light area around the station.

If you had taken the trouble to actually read the articles I think even you would have realized how disturbed people were from the mayor downwards with this barbaric behavior.

No coincidence that both Sweden & Denmark abandoned Schengen yesterday.

Cyclefree said:

MaxPB said:

Cyclefree said:

If I or my daughter were assaulted by rapists and the police refused to or failed to take any action against the attackers, I would take my own revenge on them. I would be quite capable of killing anyone who harmed my daughter.

If the state fails in its most basic task - as Germany would appear to have done, first, by letting such people in; second, failing to protect its citizens from criminals; and thirdly, failing to bring such criminals to justice - then it should not be surprised if citizens take the law into their own hands.

The Germans should be reminded of the outrage they and the rest of us felt when we learnt of the mass rapes of Bosnian Muslim women by Serbs during the Yugoslav civil wars. They should be equally outraged if the same crimes are perpetrated on them.

The protection of women from what is a most horrible crime is not some optional nice-to-have. Sadly, this seems to be a lesson which needs to be taught every few years.

It should be a lesson we need only learn once. I wouldn't blame you. If my partner were assaulted in this manner and the police turned a blind eye I would be looking to take the law into my own hands. If the government and the police are not there to protect people from crime of the worst type then why even bother having them.

Cultural sensitivity is a complete bullshit phrase that needs to be stamped on and thrown out of our vocabulary. I'm not going to be sensitive towards those who have an inferior culture to our own.

I agree wholeheartedly. Some cultures are better than others. I think Western culture is better on the whole than Middle Eastern culture. Those living in the Middle East may disagree. That is their right. But if they come to live here they live according to our rules. And if they don't want to, they can piss off.

What they need to - and don't - understand is that the freedoms which allow women to do what they want, including getting pissed and fall into the gutter after having given blow jobs to the local light infantry (if that is what they want to do) are the same freedoms which have resulted in us having a stable, free and economically prosperous society which is so attractive to the migrants. You can't have one without the other.

The freedom to do what you want is indivisible from the freedom to think what you want, to say what you want, to ask "why" and "why not", to invent, to create, to change and to refuse to accept that you have discovered all possible human knowledge and that there is nothing more to learn and that therefore nothing must change.

Excellent post.

rcs1000 said:

MaxPB said:

Casino_Royale said:

I've said it before and I'll say it again: Merkel will go down in history as one of the worst Western leaders of the early 21st Century.

I'm hoping that the CDU commit suicide and keep her there for 2017. The SPD is already down in the dumps and they are being whittled away by the greens and left party. Hopefully AfD can begin to make real inroads into the CDU share so the cosy grand coalition will be impossible in 2017.

The last three opinion polls in Germany have AfD on c. 9%, and the FDP scraping into parliament with 5%. If both those parties make it, it will make a much more interesting parliament.

That being said, CDU + SPD currently gets 60%, so hard to see a scenario where a grand coalition is not possible.

As I said, I would love to see AfD continue make inroads into the CDU/CSU share and the other two left parties continue to hollow out the SPD. If that 60% turns into 50% over the next two years it is difficult to see a grand coalition.

notme said:

RodCrosby said:

notme said:

RodCrosby said:

Sky News showing report that ISIS have discovered a way to re-activate obsolete SAM missiles...

Former Chief of RAF says: "we're now in a different ballpark. There are hundreds of thousands of these things lying around, on scrapheaps..."

Seems a bit unlikely. Getting rockets to work, is well, rocket science. They need exceptional maintenance to keep them in top condition. If they arent in top condition they'll kill more of your own side than the enemy.

Are we to believe that ISIS has the infrastructure and capacity to reactivate and retrofit these on a large scale? The failure rate if experts were doing it would be 75% at best.

Make of it what you wish
http://news.sky.com/story/1617229/is-bomb-skills-truly-the-stuff-of-nightmares

thanks, im sceptical but still frightened.... What happens when they're able to develop drones...

You mean, like these: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=imtqooJj0I4

Cyclefree said:

I agree wholeheartedly. Some cultures are better than others. I think Western culture is better on the whole than Middle Eastern culture. Those living in the Middle East may disagree. That is their right. But if they come to live here they live according to our rules. And if they don't want to, they can piss off.

What they need to - and don't - understand is that the freedoms which allow women to do what they want, including getting pissed and fall into the gutter after having given blow jobs to the local light infantry (if that is what they want to do) are the same freedoms which have resulted in us having a stable, free and economically prosperous society which is so attractive to the migrants. You can't have one without the other.

The freedom to do what you want is indivisible from the freedom to think what you want, to say what you want, to ask "why" and "why not", to invent, to create, to change and to refuse to accept that you have discovered all possible human knowledge and that there is nothing more to learn and that therefore nothing must change.

Spot on. Your example reminded me of a young woman in my first year of uni who disappeared into her bedroom with three rugby boys and reappeared the following day looking pretty dishevelled. I went to her wedding last year, unsurprisingly the story didn't get a mention!

rcs1000 said:

notme said:

RodCrosby said:

notme said:

RodCrosby said:

Sky News showing report that ISIS have discovered a way to re-activate obsolete SAM missiles...

Former Chief of RAF says: "we're now in a different ballpark. There are hundreds of thousands of these things lying around, on scrapheaps..."

Seems a bit unlikely. Getting rockets to work, is well, rocket science. They need exceptional maintenance to keep them in top condition. If they arent in top condition they'll kill more of your own side than the enemy.

Are we to believe that ISIS has the infrastructure and capacity to reactivate and retrofit these on a large scale? The failure rate if experts were doing it would be 75% at best.

Make of it what you wish
http://news.sky.com/story/1617229/is-bomb-skills-truly-the-stuff-of-nightmares

thanks, im sceptical but still frightened.... What happens when they're able to develop drones...

You mean, like these: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=imtqooJj0I4

A friend has just got one of those. Awesome.

Think on it the other way round. How long before sub-national groups can have fun with the Jihadis?

MaxPB said:

rcs1000 said:

MaxPB said:

Casino_Royale said:

I've said it before and I'll say it again: Merkel will go down in history as one of the worst Western leaders of the early 21st Century.

I'm hoping that the CDU commit suicide and keep her there for 2017. The SPD is already down in the dumps and they are being whittled away by the greens and left party. Hopefully AfD can begin to make real inroads into the CDU share so the cosy grand coalition will be impossible in 2017.

The last three opinion polls in Germany have AfD on c. 9%, and the FDP scraping into parliament with 5%. If both those parties make it, it will make a much more interesting parliament.

That being said, CDU + SPD currently gets 60%, so hard to see a scenario where a grand coalition is not possible.

As I said, I would love to see AfD continue make inroads into the CDU/CSU share and the other two left parties continue to hollow out the SPD. If that 60% turns into 50% over the next two years it is difficult to see a grand coalition.

But what's the alternative:

CDU + FDP + AfD?
SPD + Linke + Greens?

Increasing fragmentation means ever more unstable coalitions, and an inability to make difficult necessary reforms.

RodCrosby said:

MaxPB said:

Cyclefree said:

If I or my daughter were assaulted by rapists and the police refused to or failed to take any action against the attackers, I would take my own revenge on them. I would be quite capable of killing anyone who harmed my daughter.

If the state fails in its most basic task - as Germany would appear to have done, first, by letting such people in; second, failing to protect its citizens from criminals; and thirdly, failing to bring such criminals to justice - then it should not be surprised if citizens take the law into their own hands.

The Germans should be reminded of the outrage they and the rest of us felt when we learnt of the mass rapes of Bosnian Muslim women by Serbs during the Yugoslav civil wars. They should be equally outraged if the same crimes are perpetrated on them.

The protection of women from what is a most horrible crime is not some optional nice-to-have. Sadly, this seems to be a lesson which needs to be taught every few years.

Cultural sensitivity is a complete bullshit phrase that needs to be stamped on and thrown out of our vocabulary. I'm not going to be sensitive towards those who have an inferior culture to our own.

But that rather begs the question. Why permit these people to immigrate into your country at all, unless you actually seek its destruction?

Search me, I'm half in the Trump camp of halting all immigration from Muslim countries. I make no bones about it, I think Islamic culture is vastly inferior to British culture, it does nothing to enrich this country and causes nothing but harm. Those that want to integrate I have no issue with, but too many are unwilling to do so and until they prove they are why bother with the hassle.

Casino_Royale said:

Cyclefree said:

If I or my daughter were assaulted by rapists and the police refused to or failed to take any action against the attackers, I would take my own revenge on them. I would be quite capable of killing anyone who harmed my daughter.

If the state fails in its most basic task - as Germany would appear to have done, first, by letting such people in; second, failing to protect its citizens from criminals; and thirdly, failing to bring such criminals to justice - then it should not be surprised if citizens take the law into their own hands.

The Germans should be reminded of the outrage they and the rest of us felt when we learnt of the mass rapes of Bosnian Muslim women by Serbs during the Yugoslav civil wars. They should be equally outraged if the same crimes are perpetrated on them.

The protection of women from what is a most horrible crime is not some optional nice-to-have. Sadly, this seems to be a lesson which needs to be taught every few years.

If (and it's a whoppingly large if) this leads to irresistible public pressure on Merkel to change her policy (and I'm not holding my breath) then perhaps some good may come from it.

But i fear it will take much tougher measures than I think she is willing to politically accept to stop the migration flows in their tracks now.

She has opened Pandora's box.

I would like to hope so. But crimes against women - however awful or wide ranging - rarely have any sort of real or long-lasting political impact, partly because female politicians don't make enough of a fuss, partly because it is seen as a women's issue (as if it were some side issue like VAT on tampons, only of interest to the slightly obsessed) and partly because male politicians don't take it seriously and make it front and centre - as it would be if men and boys were being attacked and anally raped in the centres of our towns.

The paradox is that we give the impression, as a society, that we don't value women and those from societies where men's honour is, at least in part, carried by "pure" women, take their cue from that and their own idea of women, as people who are not actors in their own right, in charge of their own lives, but simply a vehicle for others - as either the "pure" woman, keeper of the family's "honour" or as a slut to be used for sex and nothing else.

rcs1000 said:

MaxPB said:

rcs1000 said:

MaxPB said:

Casino_Royale said:

I've said it before and I'll say it again: Merkel will go down in history as one of the worst Western leaders of the early 21st Century.

I'm hoping that the CDU commit suicide and keep her there for 2017. The SPD is already down in the dumps and they are being whittled away by the greens and left party. Hopefully AfD can begin to make real inroads into the CDU share so the cosy grand coalition will be impossible in 2017.

The last three opinion polls in Germany have AfD on c. 9%, and the FDP scraping into parliament with 5%. If both those parties make it, it will make a much more interesting parliament.

That being said, CDU + SPD currently gets 60%, so hard to see a scenario where a grand coalition is not possible.

As I said, I would love to see AfD continue make inroads into the CDU/CSU share and the other two left parties continue to hollow out the SPD. If that 60% turns into 50% over the next two years it is difficult to see a grand coalition.

But what's the alternative:

CDU + FDP + AfD?
SPD + Linke + Greens?

Increasing fragmentation means ever more unstable coalitions, and an inability to make difficult necessary reforms.

It really depends on the numbers but I don't think a grand coalition at 50% of the share would be stable, there would be too much internal dissent between the three parties. The CSU especially loathe the SPD and are much closer to AfD politically.

rcs1000 said:

MaxPB said:

RodCrosby said:

MaxPB said:

Cyclefree said:

If I or my daughter were assaulted by rapists and the police refused to or failed to take any action against the attackers, I would take my own revenge on them. I would be quite capable of killing anyone who harmed my daughter.

If the state fails in its most basic task - as Germany would appear to have done, first, by letting such people in; second, failing to protect its citizens from criminals; and thirdly, failing to bring such criminals to justice - then it should not be surprised if citizens take the law into their own hands.

The Germans should be reminded of the outrage they and the rest of us felt when we learnt of the mass rapes of Bosnian Muslim women by Serbs during the Yugoslav civil wars. They should be equally outraged if the same crimes are perpetrated on them.

The protection of women from what is a most horrible crime is not some optional nice-to-have. Sadly, this seems to be a lesson which needs to be taught every few years.

Cultural sensitivity is a complete bullshit phrase that needs to be stamped on and thrown out of our vocabulary. I'm not going to be sensitive towards those who have an inferior culture to our own.

But that rather begs the question. Why permit these people to immigrate into your country at all, unless you actually seek its destruction?

Search me, I'm half in the Trump camp of halting all immigration from Muslim countries. I make no bones about it, I think Islamic culture is vastly inferior to British culture, it does nothing to enrich this country and causes nothing but harm. Those that want to integrate I have no issue with, but too many are unwilling to do so and until they prove they are why bother with the hassle.

Trump doesn't just want to stop Muslim immigration, he wants to stop Muslims entering the US full stop.

That's why I said half.

tlg86 said:

Interesting comments from Ken Clarke on the Six O'Clock news this evening. I thought it was the Eurosceptics who were going to cause trouble in this parliament. His comments about the PM's decision came across as being very bitter.

There is a certain kind of Europhile that doesn't understand that giving people a real choice actually increases the chance that they will agree with you. Ted Heath actually stated that he would ignore the result of any anti-EU vote....

BIt like some Labour party types who try and "blame" Cameron for the independence referendum. They actually seem to believe that it would have been less risky from a Unionist point of view to deny the Scots a vote.

MaxPB said:

rcs1000 said:

MaxPB said:

RodCrosby said:

MaxPB said:

Cyclefree said:

If I or my daughter were assaulted by rapists and the police refused to or failed to take any action against the attackers, I would take my own revenge on them. I would be quite capable of killing anyone who harmed my daughter.

If the state fails in its most basic task - as Germany would appear to have done, first, by letting such people in; second, failing to protect its citizens from criminals; and thirdly, failing to bring such criminals to justice - then it should not be surprised if citizens take the law into their own hands.

The Germans should be reminded of the outrage they and the rest of us felt when we learnt of the mass rapes of Bosnian Muslim women by Serbs during the Yugoslav civil wars. They should be equally outraged if the same crimes are perpetrated on them.

The protection of women from what is a most horrible crime is not some optional nice-to-have. Sadly, this seems to be a lesson which needs to be taught every few years.

Cultural sensitivity is a complete bullshit phrase that needs to be stamped on and thrown out of our vocabulary. I'm not going to be sensitive towards those who have an inferior culture to our own.

But that rather begs the question. Why permit these people to immigrate into your country at all, unless you actually seek its destruction?

Search me, I'm half in the Trump camp of halting all immigration from Muslim countries. I make no bones about it, I think Islamic culture is vastly inferior to British culture, it does nothing to enrich this country and causes nothing but harm. Those that want to integrate I have no issue with, but too many are unwilling to do so and until they prove they are why bother with the hassle.

Trump doesn't just want to stop Muslim immigration, he wants to stop Muslims entering the US full stop.

That's why I said half.

The great irony is that US Muslims are much more integrated than in the UK, with above average incomes and levels of educational achievement. For humour value, you should check out The Shahs of Sunset, which is a reality TV show about Persian Muslims in LA.

HYUFD said:

Casino_Royale said:

I've said it before and I'll say it again: Merkel will go down in history as one of the worst Western leaders of the early 21st Century.

Germany has lower unemployment and debt than we do and she is probably the most powerful woman in the world, she is not even in the pool of worst leaders

After running her country flawlessly for a decade she made a monumental error. History is good at remembering mistakes.

Casino_Royale said:

tlg86 said:

Interesting comments from Ken Clarke on the Six O'Clock news this evening. I thought it was the Eurosceptics who were going to cause trouble in this parliament. His comments about the PM's decision came across as being very bitter.

The PM might have had as little choice as Corbyn.

If he insisted on ministerial support he'd have had to sack the likes of IDS, Grayling and perhaps Patel and Hammond too.

Which begs the question: which Conservatives does he replace them with?

He'd have had to find at least semi-competent Tory backbenchers that supported the PMs line to promote in their place. And there aren't too many of those.

Meanwhile it'd have done everything possible to split the party by putting all serious eurosceptics outside the Government.

Heseltine was totally wrong. This way Cameron keeps his government and party together and allows those who distrust or disagree with the EU in principle to let their views be known without being disloyal.

It was the right thing for the Conservative Party, and for the country.

HYUFD said:

Casino_Royale said:

I've said it before and I'll say it again: Merkel will go down in history as one of the worst Western leaders of the early 21st Century.

Germany has lower unemployment and debt than we do and she is probably the most powerful woman in the world, she is not even in the pool of worst leaders

Bollocks.

Casino_Royale said:

tlg86 said:

Interesting comments from Ken Clarke on the Six O'Clock news this evening. I thought it was the Eurosceptics who were going to cause trouble in this parliament. His comments about the PM's decision came across as being very bitter.

The PM might have had as little choice as Corbyn.

If he insisted on ministerial support he'd have had to sack the likes of IDS, Grayling and perhaps Patel and Hammond too.

Which begs the question: which Conservatives does he replace them with?

He'd have had to find at least semi-competent Tory backbenchers that supported the PMs line to promote in their place. And there aren't too many of those.

Meanwhile it'd have done everything possible to split the party by putting all serious eurosceptics outside the Government.

Heseltine was totally wrong. This way Cameron keeps his government and party together and allows those who distrust or disagree with the EU in principle to let their views be known without being disloyal.

Agreed. What will be interesting is the dynamic between cabinet ministers on opposite sides. Is it possible that Leave could be led - including in a debate against the PM - by a cabinet minister?

@Cyclefree


'If I or my daughter were assaulted by rapists and the police refused to or failed to take any action against the attackers, I would take my own revenge on them. I would be quite capable of killing anyone who harmed my daughter.

If the state fails in its most basic task - as Germany would appear to have done, first, by letting such people in; second, failing to protect its citizens from criminals; and thirdly, failing to bring such criminals to justice - then it should not be surprised if citizens take the law into their own hands.

The Germans should be reminded of the outrage they and the rest of us felt when we learnt of the mass rapes of Bosnian Muslim women by Serbs during the Yugoslav civil wars. They should be equally outraged if the same crimes are perpetrated on them.

The protection of women from what is a most horrible crime is not some optional nice-to-have. Sadly, this seems to be a lesson which needs to be taught every few years.'


Like a lot.

Cyclefree said:

Casino_Royale said:

Cyclefree said:

If I or my daughter were assaulted by rapists and the police refused to or failed to take any action against the attackers, I would take my own revenge on them. I would be quite capable of killing anyone who harmed my daughter.

If the state fails in its most basic task - as Germany would appear to have done, first, by letting such people in; second, failing to protect its citizens from criminals; and thirdly, failing to bring such criminals to justice - then it should not be surprised if citizens take the law into their own hands.

The Germans should be reminded of the outrage they and the rest of us felt when we learnt of the mass rapes of Bosnian Muslim women by Serbs during the Yugoslav civil wars. They should be equally outraged if the same crimes are perpetrated on them.

The protection of women from what is a most horrible crime is not some optional nice-to-have. Sadly, this seems to be a lesson which needs to be taught every few years.

If (and it's a whoppingly large if) this leads to irresistible public pressure on Merkel to change her policy (and I'm not holding my breath) then perhaps some good may come from it.

But i fear it will take much tougher measures than I think she is willing to politically accept to stop the migration flows in their tracks now.

She has opened Pandora's box.

I would like to hope so. But crimes against women - however awful or wide ranging - rarely have any sort of real or long-lasting political impact, partly because female politicians don't make enough of a fuss, partly because it is seen as a women's issue (as if it were some side issue like VAT on tampons, only of interest to the slightly obsessed) and partly because male politicians don't take it seriously and make it front and centre - as it would be if men and boys were being attacked and anally raped in the centres of our towns.

The paradox is that we give the impression, as a society, that we don't value women and those from societies where men's honour is, at least in part, carried by "pure" women, take their cue from that and their own idea of women, as people who are not actors in their own right, in charge of their own lives, but simply a vehicle for others - as either the "pure" woman, keeper of the family's "honour" or as a slut to be used for sex and nothing else.

I think feminists are happy to make those arguments against white men, particularly privileged white men.

But in the culture wars race trumps gender every time.

john_zims said:

@RodCrosby


'But that rather begs the question. Why permit these people to immigrate into your country at all, unless you actually seek its destruction? '


A politician desperate for a legacy influenced by a sensational media ?
/

It's what happens when decisions are based on sentiment and emotion and fear of pictures on social media and a lack of courage to speak some home truths and do some hard-headed reasoning. A few tears, desperate people crying and shouting, a dead child on a beach and all sense flies out of the window.

There are three and only three questions to be asked when deciding whether to let people into the country:-

1. Do we need immigrants?
2. Do we need this class / group of / this individual immigrant?

And this has to depend not just on their skills - people are not just economic units - but on whether they are willing and capable of becoming English or German or whatever, which is something more than holding a passport. It means shedding in considerable part their old life and attitudes and embracing new ones and we are entitled to judge this on the basis of how successful or otherwise immigration from that same group has been in the past and whether increasing the numbers of that group will aid or hold back integration.

3. If they turn out not be a good immigrant, can we send them back?

Sentimentality rarely leads to good judgment.

Casino_Royale said:

Cyclefree said:

Casino_Royale said:

Cyclefree said:

If I or my daughter were assaulted by rapists and the police refused to or failed to take any action against the attackers, I would take my own revenge on them. I would be quite capable of killing anyone who harmed my daughter.

If the state fails in its most basic task - as Germany would appear to have done, first, by letting such people in; second, failing to protect its citizens from criminals; and thirdly, failing to bring such criminals to justice - then it should not be surprised if citizens take the law into their own hands.

The Germans should be reminded of the outrage they and the rest of us felt when we learnt of the mass rapes of Bosnian Muslim women by Serbs during the Yugoslav civil wars. They should be equally outraged if the same crimes are perpetrated on them.

The protection of women from what is a most horrible crime is not some optional nice-to-have. Sadly, this seems to be a lesson which needs to be taught every few years.

If (and it's a whoppingly large if) this leads to irresistible public pressure on Merkel to change her policy (and I'm not holding my breath) then perhaps some good may come from it.

But i fear it will take much tougher measures than I think she is willing to politically accept to stop the migration flows in their tracks now.

She has opened Pandora's box.

I would like to hope so. But crimes against women - however awful or wide ranging - rarely have any sort of real or long-lasting political impact, partly because female politicians don't make enough of a fuss, partly because it is seen as a women's issue (as if it were some side issue like VAT on tampons, only of interest to the slightly obsessed) and partly because male politicians don't take it seriously and make it front and centre - as it would be if men and boys were being attacked and anally raped in the centres of our towns.

The paradox is that we give the impression, as a society, that we don't value women and those from societies where men's honour is, at least in part, carried by "pure" women, take their cue from that and their own idea of women, as people who are not actors in their own right, in charge of their own lives, but simply a vehicle for others - as either the "pure" woman, keeper of the family's "honour" or as a slut to be used for sex and nothing else.

I think feminists are happy to make those arguments against white men, particularly privileged white men.

But in the culture wars race trumps gender every time.

Yeah, well: I'm not going to let "feminists" (they're not real feminists IMO) get away with that load of old bollocks.

HYUFD said:

Casino_Royale said:

I've said it before and I'll say it again: Merkel will go down in history as one of the worst Western leaders of the early 21st Century.

Germany has lower unemployment and debt than we do and she is probably the most powerful woman in the world, she is not even in the pool of worst leaders

At the moment Hilary is probably the most powerful woman in the world, she is the presumptive POTUS.

Merkel will be remembered as the woman who opened the door to extremists and terrorists. Her reputation has been irreparably damaged by the migrant crisis and her reaction to it.

Even the NYT has changed its tune:

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/12/21/world/europe/hungary-viktor-orban-migrant-crisis.html?_r=2

"George Konrad, a distinguished novelist, loathes his country’s stridently illiberal prime minister, Viktor Orban.

“He is not a good democrat and I don’t believe he is a good person,” said Mr. Konrad, a veteran of communist-era struggles against dictatorship."

“It hurts to admit it, but on this point Orban was right,” Mr. Konrad, 82, "

A very critical article on the EU/Merkel stance from a bastion of the left, one which praises Orban, an ultra right quasi-dictator.

rcs1000 said:

Casino_Royale said:

tlg86 said:

Interesting comments from Ken Clarke on the Six O'Clock news this evening. I thought it was the Eurosceptics who were going to cause trouble in this parliament. His comments about the PM's decision came across as being very bitter.

The PM might have had as little choice as Corbyn.

If he insisted on ministerial support he'd have had to sack the likes of IDS, Grayling and perhaps Patel and Hammond too.

Which begs the question: which Conservatives does he replace them with?

He'd have had to find at least semi-competent Tory backbenchers that supported the PMs line to promote in their place. And there aren't too many of those.

Meanwhile it'd have done everything possible to split the party by putting all serious eurosceptics outside the Government.

Heseltine was totally wrong. This way Cameron keeps his government and party together and allows those who distrust or disagree with the EU in principle to let their views be known without being disloyal.

It was the right thing for the Conservative Party, and for the country.

The book is clearly pro- bias slanted, but I came away with a much better impression of Cameron having read Anthony Seldon's book over Christmas. He does seem to listen even if I don't always agree with his decisions.

I feel the opposite about Osborne.

Cyclefree said:

Casino_Royale said:

Cyclefree said:

Casino_Royale said:

Cyclefree said:

If I or my daughter were assaulted by rapists and the police refused to or failed to take any action against the attackers, I would take my own revenge on them. I would be quite capable of killing anyone who harmed my daughter.

If the state fails in its most basic task - as Germany would appear to have done, first, by letting such people in; second, failing to protect its citizens from criminals; and thirdly, failing to bring such criminals to justice - then it should not be surprised if citizens take the law into their own hands.

The Germans should be reminded of the outrage they and the rest of us felt when we learnt of the mass rapes of Bosnian Muslim women by Serbs during the Yugoslav civil wars. They should be equally outraged if the same crimes are perpetrated on them.

The protection of women from what is a most horrible crime is not some optional nice-to-have. Sadly, this seems to be a lesson which needs to be taught every few years.

If (and it's a whoppingly large if) this leads to irresistible public pressure on Merkel to change her policy (and I'm not holding my breath) then perhaps some good may come from it.

But i fear it will take much tougher measures than I think she is willing to politically accept to stop the migration flows in their tracks now.

She has opened Pandora's box.

I would like to hope so. But crimes against women - however awful or wide ranging - rarely have any sort of real or long-lasting political impact, partly because female politicians don't make enough of a fuss, partly because it is seen as a women's issue (as if it were some side issue like VAT on tampons, only of interest to the slightly obsessed) and partly because male politicians don't take it seriously and make it front and centre - as it would be if men and boys were being attacked and anally raped in the centres of our towns.

The paradox is that we give the impression, as a society, that we don't value women and those from societies where men's honour is, at least in part, carried by "pure" women, take their cue from that and their own idea of women, as people who are not actors in their own right, in charge of their own lives, but simply a vehicle for others - as either the "pure" woman, keeper of the family's "honour" or as a slut to be used for sex and nothing else.

I think feminists are happy to make those arguments against white men, particularly privileged white men.

But in the culture wars race trumps gender every time.

Yeah, well: I'm not going to let "feminists" (they're not real feminists IMO) get away with that load of old bollocks.

I'm rooting for you. And I also agree with you.

rcs1000 said:

MaxPB said:

rcs1000 said:

MaxPB said:

RodCrosby said:

MaxPB said:

Cyclefree said:

If I or my daughter were assaulted by rapists and the police refused to or failed to take any action against the attackers, I would take my own revenge on them. I would be quite capable of killing anyone who harmed my daughter.

If the state fails in its most basic task - as Germany would appear to have done, first, by letting such people in; second, failing to protect its citizens from criminals; and thirdly, failing to bring such criminals to justice - then it should not be surprised if citizens take the law into their own hands.

The Germans should be reminded of the outrage they and the rest of us felt when we learnt of the mass rapes of Bosnian Muslim women by Serbs during the Yugoslav civil wars. They should be equally outraged if the same crimes are perpetrated on them.

The protection of women from what is a most horrible crime is not some optional nice-to-have. Sadly, this seems to be a lesson which needs to be taught every few years.

Cultural sensitivity is a complete bullshit phrase that needs to be stamped on and thrown out of our vocabulary. I'm not going to be sensitive towards those who have an inferior culture to our own.

But that rather begs the question. Why permit these people to immigrate into your country at all, unless you actually seek its destruction?

Search me, I'm half in the Trump camp of halting all immigration from Muslim countries. I make no bones about it, I think Islamic culture is vastly inferior to British culture, it does nothing to enrich this country and causes nothing but harm. Those that want to integrate I have no issue with, but too many are unwilling to do so and until they prove they are why bother with the hassle.

Trump doesn't just want to stop Muslim immigration, he wants to stop Muslims entering the US full stop.

That's why I said half.

The great irony is that US Muslims are much more integrated than in the UK, with above average incomes and levels of educational achievement. For humour value, you should check out The Shahs of Sunset, which is a reality TV show about Persian Muslims in LA.

Depends where you go and San Bernadino suggests not all US Muslims are peeaceloving all American types

Casino_Royale said:

rcs1000 said:

Casino_Royale said:

tlg86 said:

Interesting comments from Ken Clarke on the Six O'Clock news this evening. I thought it was the Eurosceptics who were going to cause trouble in this parliament. His comments about the PM's decision came across as being very bitter.

The PM might have had as little choice as Corbyn.

If he insisted on ministerial support he'd have had to sack the likes of IDS, Grayling and perhaps Patel and Hammond too.

Which begs the question: which Conservatives does he replace them with?

He'd have had to find at least semi-competent Tory backbenchers that supported the PMs line to promote in their place. And there aren't too many of those.

Meanwhile it'd have done everything possible to split the party by putting all serious eurosceptics outside the Government.

Heseltine was totally wrong. This way Cameron keeps his government and party together and allows those who distrust or disagree with the EU in principle to let their views be known without being disloyal.

It was the right thing for the Conservative Party, and for the country.

The book is clearly pro- bias slanted, but I came away with a much better impression of Cameron having read Anthony Seldon's book over Christmas. He does seem to listen even if I don't always agree with his decisions.

I feel the opposite about Osborne.

Get a room with GeorgeOsbornegenius.

Casino_Royale said:

Cyclefree said:

I would like to hope so. But crimes against women - however awful or wide ranging - rarely have any sort of real or long-lasting political impact, partly because female politicians don't make enough of a fuss, partly because it is seen as a women's issue (as if it were some side issue like VAT on tampons, only of interest to the slightly obsessed) and partly because male politicians don't take it seriously and make it front and centre - as it would be if men and boys were being attacked and anally raped in the centres of our towns.

The paradox is that we give the impression, as a society, that we don't value women and those from societies where men's honour is, at least in part, carried by "pure" women, take their cue from that and their own idea of women, as people who are not actors in their own right, in charge of their own lives, but simply a vehicle for others - as either the "pure" woman, keeper of the family's "honour" or as a slut to be used for sex and nothing else.

I think feminists are happy to make those arguments against white men, particularly privileged white men.

But in the culture wars race trumps gender every time.

Yes well isn't that the problem. Feminists these days seem more interested in wearing a stupid T-Shirt and hounding those who don't, or changing their facebook status or posting some twitter inanity than actually tackling the real issues.

I brought it up with a few friends of my partner who consider themselves feminists and do all of that stuff, why do feminists go easy on Muslim crime against women/girls. Honour killings, FGM, rape and child sexual abuse are all rife within the Muslim community and all of those crimes disproportionately or are exclusively perpetrated against women/girls and nothing. Their answer was "we can't win that battle, there is no interest within any major political party to solve any of those issues so we fight the battles we can win". Pathetic. If the suffragettes had thought that way it would have taken 50 more years for women to get the vote.

MaxPB said:

Casino_Royale said:

Cyclefree said:

I would like to hope so. But crimes against women - however awful or wide ranging - rarely have any sort of real or long-lasting political impact, partly because female politicians don't make enough of a fuss, partly because it is seen as a women's issue (as if it were some side issue like VAT on tampons, only of interest to the slightly obsessed) and partly because male politicians don't take it seriously and make it front and centre - as it would be if men and boys were being attacked and anally raped in the centres of our towns.

The paradox is that we give the impression, as a society, that we don't value women and those from societies where men's honour is, at least in part, carried by "pure" women, take their cue from that and their own idea of women, as people who are not actors in their own right, in charge of their own lives, but simply a vehicle for others - as either the "pure" woman, keeper of the family's "honour" or as a slut to be used for sex and nothing else.

I think feminists are happy to make those arguments against white men, particularly privileged white men.

But in the culture wars race trumps gender every time.

Yes well isn't that the problem. Feminists these days seem more interested in wearing a stupid T-Shirt and hounding those who don't, or changing their facebook status or posting some twitter inanity than actually tackling the real issues.

I brought it up with a few friends of my partner who consider themselves feminists and do all of that stuff, why do feminists go easy on Muslim crime against women/girls. Honour killings, FGM, rape and child sexual abuse are all rife within the Muslim community and all of those crimes disproportionately or are exclusively perpetrated against women/girls and nothing. Their answer was "we can't win that battle, there is no interest within any major political party to solve any of those issues so we fight the battles we can win". Pathetic. If the suffragettes had thought that way it would have taken 50 more years for women to get the vote.

How prevalent is FGM in the UK?

HYUFD said:

rcs1000 said:

HYUFD said:

Casino_Royale said:

I've said it before and I'll say it again: Merkel will go down in history as one of the worst Western leaders of the early 21st Century.

Germany has lower unemployment and debt than we do and she is probably the most powerful woman in the world, she is not even in the pool of worst leaders

After running her country flawlessly for a decade she made a monumental error. History is good at remembering mistakes.

Historically pre-Syria Merkel actually took less immigrants than Cameron, Brown and Blair

All of that means nothing when the policy she has pursued is letting in 1.5m people per year from a third world country.

Roger said:

Cyclefree said:

MaxPB said:

Cyclefree said:

What they need to - and don't - understand is that the freedoms which allow women to do what they want, including getting pissed and fall into the gutter after having given blow jobs to the local light infantry (if that is what they want to do) are the same freedoms which have resulted in us having a stable, free and economically prosperous society which is so attractive to the migrants. You can't have one without the other.

The freedom to do what you want is indivisible from the freedom to think what you want, to say what you want, to ask "why" and "why not", to invent, to create, to change and to refuse to accept that you have discovered all possible human knowledge and that there is nothing more to learn and that therefore nothing must change.

You're living in Narnia. That might be how you'd like it to be but not how it is. I bought my flat in Soho in 1985 and every night the police van would come down and pick up as many girls off the street as they could fit in their van. It carried on until about 2000 when the area became gay and the police attitude changed.

Germany is as you describe. The UK isn't. Try giving someone a blow job in a public place in the UK (if that's what you want to do) and you'll find yourself in jail. Even cycling naked without the blow job will see you incarcerated! It's got better but we're a long way from the place you're describing

No I'm not. I live here. I know whereof I speak. (And BTW I didn't say the blow jobs had to be in public. That's your assumption.)

We take the view that women are in charge of their own lives, are sexual beings and can make their own sexual choices, that they can "do" as well as "be done to". We take the view that they are not mere appendages to others, that they are not there to keep and transmit the family's "honour" while the men behave however they like. We are revolted at the idea that rape could be used as a punishment because some man's honour has been impugned, at the idea that "honour" is about appearances rather than the reality.

Freedom for women is essential to a free society. It is one reason why one of the first things that those societies that turn their back on Western liberal freedoms do is to remove and/or restrict women's freedom and their right to education and their rights to do as they like with their own bodies, with their lives. They understand how dangerous such freedoms are to those who would exercise control and power. They are scared and, like the scared the world over, they try and lash out, using verbal and actual violence.

rcs1000 said:

MaxPB said:

Casino_Royale said:

Cyclefree said:

I would like to hope so. But crimes against women - however awful or wide ranging - rarely have any sort of real or long-lasting political impact, partly because female politicians don't make enough of a fuss, partly because it is seen as a women's issue (as if it were some side issue like VAT on tampons, only of interest to the slightly obsessed) and partly because male politicians don't take it seriously and make it front and centre - as it would be if men and boys were being attacked and anally raped in the centres of our towns.

The paradox is that we give the impression, as a society, that we don't value women and those from societies where men's honour is, at least in part, carried by "pure" women, take their cue from that and their own idea of women, as people who are not actors in their own right, in charge of their own lives, but simply a vehicle for others - as either the "pure" woman, keeper of the family's "honour" or as a slut to be used for sex and nothing else.

I think feminists are happy to make those arguments against white men, particularly privileged white men.

But in the culture wars race trumps gender every time.

Yes well isn't that the problem. Feminists these days seem more interested in wearing a stupid T-Shirt and hounding those who don't, or changing their facebook status or posting some twitter inanity than actually tackling the real issues.

I brought it up with a few friends of my partner who consider themselves feminists and do all of that stuff, why do feminists go easy on Muslim crime against women/girls. Honour killings, FGM, rape and child sexual abuse are all rife within the Muslim community and all of those crimes disproportionately or are exclusively perpetrated against women/girls and nothing. Their answer was "we can't win that battle, there is no interest within any major political party to solve any of those issues so we fight the battles we can win". Pathetic. If the suffragettes had thought that way it would have taken 50 more years for women to get the vote.

How prevalent is FGM in the UK?

Read about it, it's quite bad. Some estimates are 10 in 1000 Muslim girls are subjected to it and many more are at risk of being taken overseas and having it carried out on them.

The_Apocalypse said:

Looking at the DM comments section on SPOTY

Sounds like an amusing time.

The_Apocalypse said:

A late Happy New Year to all here.

It's strange. I'm a feminist, and I know (surprise, surprise) other feminists who are critical of rape and sexual assault irregardless of the ethnic background of the rapist. Yet according to PB 'feminists' in general are only/mainly critical of privileged white men when it comes to rape and sexual assault?

Checkout some of the people involved in trying to make reporting what was happening in Rotherham a criminal offense and have subsequently stated that just arresting the criminals would destroy "community harmony".

Yes, alleged leaders of feminism in this country. Or the notable "feminist" who claimed that a crackdown on FGM was un-necessary and racist.

It almost like there was a pattern there or something.