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The introduction of PCCs was one of Douglas Carswell's best ideas. As well as being more democratic, they are more cost-effective than the old system.0
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According to the Staggers, she's not on speaking terms with her 100% Labour council leader - IIRC he's to the right of her.
It's a mess - her maj is something like 23kCasino_Royale said:
There is clearly something deeply personal going on with Stella Creasy and the Left of the party.dr_spyn said:0 -
Nor do I.MaxPB said:
She is really out to the left as well so I don't understand the animosity. Maybe they see her as a potential rival to Corbyn.Casino_Royale said:
There is clearly something deeply personal going on with Stella Creasy and the Left of the party.dr_spyn said:
I'm not one to jump on the identity politics bandwagon but I do wonder if she'd be receiving the same level of vitriol if she were a male middle-aged Labour MP rather than a young, attractive and outspoken female one.0 -
Farage was talking about either western troops or more likely forces from some of the surrounding ME countries. One of the problems we have is a current refusal by the US or European forces to act in concert with the Iranians or Assad forces. Outside of the Kurds they are the main ground opposition to IS and could fulfill much of the role we would otherwise ascribe to western ground troops. The trouble is of course we are wedded to getting rid of Assad.MaxPB said:
Isn't that the Ken Livingstone position? I don't disagree with it, but I don't see this country deploying ground forces for the foreseeable future, if there is a major terrorist attack by ISIS in the UK then I could see it, but as of now there doesn't seem to be much appetite among NATO to deploy troops to Syria and fight alongside the Russia/Iran/Assad alliance.Richard_Tyndall said:
Nope. It is against air strikes alone. Farage made clear a few days ago that UKIP are not opposed to intervention nor air strikes per se but they have to be as part of a coordinated effort in support of ground forces. His term was a 'grand coalition' including ground forces.MaxPB said:
Well that's another party split then, I think UKIP policy is against air strikes or any kind of intervention.edmundintokyo said:
Still undecided, per his tweets, but affecting to be more convinced by the PM.Richard_Nabavi said:Has Douglas Carswell said how he will vote? He voted in favour of action in Syria in 2013 IIRC.
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No I didn't read the link because I disagree. Turnout was over 5 million people, that isn't pathetic. What is pathetic is your bleating and whining.blackburn63 said:
Utter nonsense, did you read the link? Turnout is pathetic, few people care, money is wasted, police funding is cut, it says everything about modern tories that they defend this sort of thing. In a minute you'll be telling us the importance of cutting the deficit.Philip_Thompson said:
I couldn't care less about turnout. I cared so I voted, if people who don't care don't vote then so what? Let the people who care vote - over 5 million chose to vote so that's not nobody in my eyes.blackburn63 said:
I don't want to vote for anybody, I want the money spent on policemen. The % turnout is so pitifully low you have to assume that virtually nobody cares.oxfordsimon said:
The point is that now we have some direct democratic oversight through the PCCs. If you don't like the direction your local force is taking, you have the right to vote in someone who will do a better job.blackburn63 said:
Amazes me how the tories on here go out of their way to justify things. Its like those ridiculous PCCs, money that should be spent on coppers - guess who introduced them?Philip_Thompson said:
No they simply don't. Local government raises a large portion of its funding directly and if it chooses to waste it then there is little Central government can do.blackburn63 said:Govt controls local govt budgets of course its his fault.
B b b b b ut
There will always be people in charge of the Police, always have been, so the suggestion the money should be spent on cops instead is a false dichotomy.
Considering this system is more cost-effective than the one it replaced yet it allies with cutting the deficit. But don't let facts get in the way of your ranting.0 -
Quite, the latest sham is Osborne falling out with May over immigration, he wants more she wants less. Still they're in govt so no matter, the lackies get to crow about it.Indigo said:
Cutting the deficit is an optional extra, did't you get the memo, the Blue Team winning is what matters even if to do so it has to become identical in many respects to the Red Team under Blair, including on current evidence, the same level of acquaintance with telling the truth to the voters.blackburn63 said:
Utter nonsense, did you read the link? Turnout is pathetic, few people care, money is wasted, police funding is cut, it says everything about modern tories that they defend this sort of thing. In a minute you'll be telling us the importance of cutting the deficit.Philip_Thompson said:
I couldn't care less about turnout. I cared so I voted, if people who don't care don't vote then so what? Let the people who care vote - over 5 million chose to vote so that's not nobody in my eyes.blackburn63 said:
I don't want to vote for anybody, I want the money spent on policemen. The % turnout is so pitifully low you have to assume that virtually nobody cares.oxfordsimon said:
The point is that now we have some direct democratic oversight through the PCCs. If you don't like the direction your local force is taking, you have the right to vote in someone who will do a better job.blackburn63 said:
Amazes me how the tories on here go out of their way to justify things. Its like those ridiculous PCCs, money that should be spent on coppers - guess who introduced them?Philip_Thompson said:
No they simply don't. Local government raises a large portion of its funding directly and if it chooses to waste it then there is little Central government can do.blackburn63 said:Govt controls local govt budgets of course its his fault.
B b b b b ut
There will always be people in charge of the Police, always have been, so the suggestion the money should be spent on cops instead is a false dichotomy.
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Precisely. (Douglas Carswell is very strong on promoting that as well, of course)Philip_Thompson said:
The belief in local democracy?Indigo said:
What stops the government passing an act of primary legislation restricting what local councils can spend their money on, these restrictions clearly exist to some extent now, local councils cant employ their own private armies or police forces, what not extend the list into areas of waste and PC idiocy ?Philip_Thompson said:
No they simply don't. Local government raises a large portion of its funding directly and if it chooses to waste it then there is little Central government can do.blackburn63 said:Govt controls local govt budgets of course its his fault.
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She was pretty rude to me on Twitter and made misandist comments when she thought I was male. Then she blocked me.
I don't like her, but I'm surprised she's been alienating so many others too. She struck me as very full of herself.Tom said:
She is not well liked in the CLP by any part of the party - its not just the 3 quidders she's alienated most people. This has encouraged the ousters and according to NS there is some specific politics involving local councillors who have their eye on the seat.MaxPB said:
She is really out to the left as well so I don't understand the animosity. Maybe they see her as a potential rival to Corbyn.Casino_Royale said:
There is clearly something deeply personal going on with Stella Creasy and the Left of the party.dr_spyn said:
Obviously not helped by the wider atmosphere in the Party and Jeremy (Kinder, Gentler, We don't do personalities, he shares his sandwiches) Corbyn's not so veiled threats yesterday and encouragement of Momentum by those around him.0 -
Cutting the deficit doesn't mean no spending on anything ever again.blackburn63 said:
Utter nonsense, did you read the link? Turnout is pathetic, few people care, money is wasted, police funding is cut, it says everything about modern tories that they defend this sort of thing. In a minute you'll be telling us the importance of cutting the deficit.Philip_Thompson said:
I couldn't care less about turnout. I cared so I voted, if people who don't care don't vote then so what? Let the people who care vote - over 5 million chose to vote so that's not nobody in my eyes.blackburn63 said:
I don't want to vote for anybody, I want the money spent on policemen. The % turnout is so pitifully low you have to assume that virtually nobody cares.oxfordsimon said:
The point is that now we have some direct democratic oversight through the PCCs. If you don't like the direction your local force is taking, you have the right to vote in someone who will do a better job.blackburn63 said:
Amazes me how the tories on here go out of their way to justify things. Its like those ridiculous PCCs, money that should be spent on coppers - guess who introduced them?Philip_Thompson said:
No they simply don't. Local government raises a large portion of its funding directly and if it chooses to waste it then there is little Central government can do.blackburn63 said:Govt controls local govt budgets of course its his fault.
B b b b b ut
There will always be people in charge of the Police, always have been, so the suggestion the money should be spent on cops instead is a false dichotomy.
The left only seem to worry about the deficit when it is stuff that they don't like.0 -
It's notable that she has a following outside her constituency. Also she is a friend of Caroline Criado-Perez who will probably rally support for her. She will not be quietly disposed of.Casino_Royale said:
Nor do I.MaxPB said:
She is really out to the left as well so I don't understand the animosity. Maybe they see her as a potential rival to Corbyn.Casino_Royale said:
There is clearly something deeply personal going on with Stella Creasy and the Left of the party.dr_spyn said:
I'm not one to jump on the identity politics bandwagon but I do wonder if she'd be receiving the same level of vitriol if she were a male middle-aged Labour MP rather than a young, attractive and outspoken female one.0 -
Abusing again Mr Thompson? Eschewing the opportunity to read something that may contradict your partisan view?Philip_Thompson said:
No I didn't read the link because I disagree. Turnout was over 5 million people, that isn't pathetic. What is pathetic is your bleating and whining.blackburn63 said:
Utter nonsense, did you read the link? Turnout is pathetic, few people care, money is wasted, police funding is cut, it says everything about modern tories that they defend this sort of thing. In a minute you'll be telling us the importance of cutting the deficit.Philip_Thompson said:
I couldn't care less about turnout. I cared so I voted, if people who don't care don't vote then so what? Let the people who care vote - over 5 million chose to vote so that's not nobody in my eyes.blackburn63 said:
I don't want to vote for anybody, I want the money spent on policemen. The % turnout is so pitifully low you have to assume that virtually nobody cares.oxfordsimon said:
The point is that now we have some direct democratic oversight through the PCCs. If you don't like the direction your local force is taking, you have the right to vote in someone who will do a better job.blackburn63 said:
Amazes me how the tories on here go out of their way to justify things. Its like those ridiculous PCCs, money that should be spent on coppers - guess who introduced them?Philip_Thompson said:
No they simply don't. Local government raises a large portion of its funding directly and if it chooses to waste it then there is little Central government can do.blackburn63 said:Govt controls local govt budgets of course its his fault.
B b b b b ut
There will always be people in charge of the Police, always have been, so the suggestion the money should be spent on cops instead is a false dichotomy.
I'd love to be a tory, its like a 5 year old from Surrey supporting Man Utd because they won the league.
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The last point is clearly the major disagreement, though there have been some major moves to just leave Assad where he is from the western coalition. I think the French are pretty pragmatic and the Americans just want it over with. Dave seems to be the last plank in favour of toppling Assad, but he never was much of a thinker, hopefully Hammond and Fallon can convince him that removing Assade just clears the way for ISIS and al-Nusra.Richard_Tyndall said:
Farage was talking about either western troops or more likely forces from some of the surrounding ME countries. One of the problems we have is a current refusal by the US or European forces to act in concert with the Iranians or Assad forces. Outside of the Kurds they are the main ground opposition to IS and could fulfill much of the role we would otherwise ascribe to western ground troops. The trouble is of course we are wedded to getting rid of Assad.MaxPB said:
Isn't that the Ken Livingstone position? I don't disagree with it, but I don't see this country deploying ground forces for the foreseeable future, if there is a major terrorist attack by ISIS in the UK then I could see it, but as of now there doesn't seem to be much appetite among NATO to deploy troops to Syria and fight alongside the Russia/Iran/Assad alliance.Richard_Tyndall said:
Nope. It is against air strikes alone. Farage made clear a few days ago that UKIP are not opposed to intervention nor air strikes per se but they have to be as part of a coordinated effort in support of ground forces. His term was a 'grand coalition' including ground forces.MaxPB said:
Well that's another party split then, I think UKIP policy is against air strikes or any kind of intervention.edmundintokyo said:
Still undecided, per his tweets, but affecting to be more convinced by the PM.Richard_Nabavi said:Has Douglas Carswell said how he will vote? He voted in favour of action in Syria in 2013 IIRC.
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A silly, petulant and casually blasphemous tweet.dr_spyn said:0 -
Interesting that she's not liked in the CLP. She had trouble getting deputy leadership nominations iircPlato_Says said:She was pretty rude to me on Twitter and made misandist comments when she thought I was male. Then she blocked me.
I don't like her, but I'm surprised she's been alienating so many others too. She struck me as very full of herself.Tom said:
She is not well liked in the CLP by any part of the party - its not just the 3 quidders she's alienated most people. This has encouraged the ousters and according to NS there is some specific politics involving local councillors who have their eye on the seat.MaxPB said:
She is really out to the left as well so I don't understand the animosity. Maybe they see her as a potential rival to Corbyn.Casino_Royale said:
There is clearly something deeply personal going on with Stella Creasy and the Left of the party.dr_spyn said:
Obviously not helped by the wider atmosphere in the Party and Jeremy (Kinder, Gentler, We don't do personalities, he shares his sandwiches) Corbyn's not so veiled threats yesterday and encouragement of Momentum by those around him.0 -
Cutting the deficit means minimising waste, Diversity Officers and PCCs are a start.CopperSulphate said:
Cutting the deficit doesn't mean no spending on anything ever again.blackburn63 said:
Utter nonsense, did you read the link? Turnout is pathetic, few people care, money is wasted, police funding is cut, it says everything about modern tories that they defend this sort of thing. In a minute you'll be telling us the importance of cutting the deficit.Philip_Thompson said:
I couldn't care less about turnout. I cared so I voted, if people who don't care don't vote then so what? Let the people who care vote - over 5 million chose to vote so that's not nobody in my eyes.blackburn63 said:
I don't want to vote for anybody, I want the money spent on policemen. The % turnout is so pitifully low you have to assume that virtually nobody cares.oxfordsimon said:
The point is that now we have some direct democratic oversight through the PCCs. If you don't like the direction your local force is taking, you have the right to vote in someone who will do a better job.blackburn63 said:
Amazes me how the tories on here go out of their way to justify things. Its like those ridiculous PCCs, money that should be spent on coppers - guess who introduced them?Philip_Thompson said:
No they simply don't. Local government raises a large portion of its funding directly and if it chooses to waste it then there is little Central government can do.blackburn63 said:Govt controls local govt budgets of course its his fault.
B b b b b ut
There will always be people in charge of the Police, always have been, so the suggestion the money should be spent on cops instead is a false dichotomy.
The left only seem to worry about the deficit when it is stuff that they don't like.
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Do you remember those great books - wasting police time, written by "PC David Copperfield"?blackburn63 said:Re PCCs have a look at this:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-20374139
Turnout was so low a "watchdog" is investigating. More money wasted as police funding is cut.
Come on tories, can you defend this?
amazon.co.uk/Wasting-Police-Time-Crazy-World/dp/0955285410
Coruscating attacks on the modern police force from within. Much noticed and agreed with cross-party.
One of his key recommendations? Elected and therefore accountable PCCs to oversee police activity and ensure it also is democratically accountable.0 -
They may well be cheaper but PCCs seem no more effective that the old Police Authorities. They seem to be far to inclined to accept whatever nonsense their Chief Constable puts before them. However, it is early days, this is a very new post and idea. If in one part of the country a PCC starts kicking some bottom then we may well see the sort of democratic accountability that was envisioned.Richard_Nabavi said:The introduction of PCCs was one of Douglas Carswell's best ideas. As well as being more democratic, they are more cost-effective than the old system.
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''Interesting that she's not liked in the CLP. She had trouble getting deputy leadership nominations iirc''
Creasey vs Corbynists = alien vs predator.0 -
Considering I was quoting your words (OK I added bleating and whining) the idea of complaining about abuse is particularly amusing. Especially when you go on to make insults. The irony is strong with this one.blackburn63 said:
Abusing again Mr Thompson? Eschewing the opportunity to read something that may contradict your partisan view?Philip_Thompson said:
No I didn't read the link because I disagree. Turnout was over 5 million people, that isn't pathetic. What is pathetic is your bleating and whining.blackburn63 said:
Utter nonsense, did you read the link? Turnout is pathetic, few people care, money is wasted, police funding is cut, it says everything about modern tories that they defend this sort of thing. In a minute you'll be telling us the importance of cutting the deficit.Philip_Thompson said:
I couldn't care less about turnout. I cared so I voted, if people who don't care don't vote then so what? Let the people who care vote - over 5 million chose to vote so that's not nobody in my eyes.blackburn63 said:
I don't want to vote for anybody, I want the money spent on policemen. The % turnout is so pitifully low you have to assume that virtually nobody cares.oxfordsimon said:
The point is that now we have some direct democratic oversight through the PCCs. If you don't like the direction your local force is taking, you have the right to vote in someone who will do a better job.blackburn63 said:
Amazes me how the tories on here go out of their way to justify things. Its like those ridiculous PCCs, money that should be spent on coppers - guess who introduced them?Philip_Thompson said:
No they simply don't. Local government raises a large portion of its funding directly and if it chooses to waste it then there is little Central government can do.blackburn63 said:Govt controls local govt budgets of course its his fault.
B b b b b ut
There will always be people in charge of the Police, always have been, so the suggestion the money should be spent on cops instead is a false dichotomy.
I'd love to be a tory, its like a 5 year old from Surrey supporting Man Utd because they won the league.
I'm no glory hunter. I agree with the Tories because I agree with them - as do more voters apparently. That's not us being most popular because we won but we won because we were most popular. Get your head around that one if you're able to.0 -
I get quite depressed buy listener comments to 5 Live coverage of the debate slating the "rowdy" behaviour of the chamber and the constant interruptions etc. Shows a serious lack of knowledge about how debates actually work in the chamber.
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OK, we understand that you are violently against Douglas Carswell's views on local democracy and PCCs, but on the latter point, are you advocating a return to the old system, or just ranting?blackburn63 said:Cutting the deficit means minimising waste, Diversity Officers and PCCs are a start.
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Golly, what is Kaufman wearing?!?0
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Google Ann Barnes and tell me its money well spentHurstLlama said:
They may well be cheaper but PCCs seem no more effective that the old Police Authorities. They seem to be far to inclined to accept whatever nonsense their Chief Constable puts before them. However, it is early days, this is a very new post and idea. If in one part of the country a PCC starts kicking some bottom then we may well see the sort of democratic accountability that was envisioned.Richard_Nabavi said:The introduction of PCCs was one of Douglas Carswell's best ideas. As well as being more democratic, they are more cost-effective than the old system.
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Yet that is what the media say is happening.Richard_Tyndall said:Not sure why the Kurds would be buying oil from IS when they are having problems with selling enough of the stuff they are producing themselves. The Kurds are having to suspend production because they can't transport or sell the oil they produce from their own very extensive oil fields. And shutting down and restarting production is a hugely costly and potentially very damaging operation.
There are several possible answers to your question:
1) They are not, as you say.
2) It is not the 'government' doing it, but smugglers within their borders.
3) The ISIS oil is cheaper than Kurdistan's own production, because they are selling it at a discount.
http://uk.businessinsider.com/isis-making-50-million-a-month-from-oil-sales-2015-10?r=US&IR=T0 -
That's probably what bothers them: she has a power base outside the constituency too and isn't beholden to the Corbyinstas. She probably doesn't pull her punches on a personal level either: she's faced intimidation before.Wanderer said:
It's notable that she has a following outside her constituency. Also she is a friend of Caroline Criado-Perez who will probably rally support for her. She will not be quietly disposed of.Casino_Royale said:
Nor do I.MaxPB said:
She is really out to the left as well so I don't understand the animosity. Maybe they see her as a potential rival to Corbyn.Casino_Royale said:
There is clearly something deeply personal going on with Stella Creasy and the Left of the party.dr_spyn said:
I'm not one to jump on the identity politics bandwagon but I do wonder if she'd be receiving the same level of vitriol if she were a male middle-aged Labour MP rather than a young, attractive and outspoken female one.
I sympathise, and i say that as someone almost totally at odds with her politics.
The Corbyinstas are starting to make the Cybernats look like the Salvation Army.0 -
Not a fan but good speech from Liam Fox there.0
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Still not able to comprehend that PCCs aren't just more accountable but cheaper are you?blackburn63 said:
Cutting the deficit means minimising waste, Diversity Officers and PCCs are a start.CopperSulphate said:
Cutting the deficit doesn't mean no spending on anything ever again.blackburn63 said:
Utter nonsense, did you read the link? Turnout is pathetic, few people care, money is wasted, police funding is cut, it says everything about modern tories that they defend this sort of thing. In a minute you'll be telling us the importance of cutting the deficit.Philip_Thompson said:
I couldn't care less about turnout. I cared so I voted, if people who don't care don't vote then so what? Let the people who care vote - over 5 million chose to vote so that's not nobody in my eyes.blackburn63 said:
I don't want to vote for anybody, I want the money spent on policemen. The % turnout is so pitifully low you have to assume that virtually nobody cares.oxfordsimon said:
The point is that now we have some direct democratic oversight through the PCCs. If you don't like the direction your local force is taking, you have the right to vote in someone who will do a better job.blackburn63 said:
Amazes me how the tories on here go out of their way to justify things. Its like those ridiculous PCCs, money that should be spent on coppers - guess who introduced them?Philip_Thompson said:
No they simply don't. Local government raises a large portion of its funding directly and if it chooses to waste it then there is little Central government can do.blackburn63 said:Govt controls local govt budgets of course its his fault.
B b b b b ut
There will always be people in charge of the Police, always have been, so the suggestion the money should be spent on cops instead is a false dichotomy.
The left only seem to worry about the deficit when it is stuff that they don't like.
When you get to grips with some facts you might start making sense.0 -
Obviously it will vary according to the PCC. I'm sure some are pretty useless, but that's democracy for you. At least we have the option of booting them out, which we didn't have under the old system.HurstLlama said:They may well be cheaper but PCCs seem no more effective that the old Police Authorities. They seem to be far to inclined to accept whatever nonsense their Chief Constable puts before them. However, it is early days, this is a very new post and idea. If in one part of the country a PCC starts kicking some bottom then we may well see the sort of democratic accountability that was envisioned.
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It must be an audio-reflective suit, all the better to hear himself. He sure likes the sound of his own voice.Plato_Says said:Golly, what is Kaufman wearing?!?
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The Tories have never had the chance against Labour councils like they'll get in the next couple of years. They need to make sure that they don't have any of this bollocks in their own councils then campaign hard on whether the people would prefer librarians and weekly bin collections or underemployed and overpaid "Diversity Officers" who try and cancel Christmas.MaxPB said:
It's not really Cameron's fault, it is just the culture of these lefty councils, they waste so much on green initiatives, diversity initiatives and cut back on libraries, health and fitness and other much needed services.blackburn63 said:
Disgusted but not surprised, so much for Cameron cutting the state.MaxPB said:
Sadly an inner London council.blackburn63 said:
Please tell me this diversity officer is in the private sector, I hope we're not funding this sort of nonsenseMaxPB said:
A friend of mine had their secret santa at work cancelled by the diversity officer, she was unimpressed and now they have started an unofficial one with exactly the same people in it as last year, including two Muslims, a Buddhist and a Hindu. No one seemed that bothered according to her by the idea of of it being a Christian celebration, most just wanted to give a gift and go out for a drink while doing it.FrancisUrquhart said:
I guess it makes a change from claiming hurt on behalf of others, who actually don't give a s##t e.g the lefty councils who get their knickers in a twist about some Christmas tradition might offend some other faiths...when 99% of those supposed to be offend seem totally bemused by why the council seem to think that might be the case.Cyclefree said:We used to have a Left that liked to think it talked about issues (or "ishoos" as the late Tony Benn would have it). Now we have a Left that it is obsessed with its own feelings, particularly its hurt feelings.
Politics as a branch of psychotherapy. Who would ever have thought that this was what a genuine Left-wing alternative meant.
In fact a Muslim friend of mine is most upset today over a Christmas tradition....her animatronic Santa has stopped working. She is way more into Christmas than me.0 -
I usually think that HoC debates are a lot better than people make out. The opening of this one was pretty dire though. Some good backbench contributions.DaemonBarber said:I get quite depressed buy listener comments to 5 Live coverage of the debate slating the "rowdy" behaviour of the chamber and the constant interruptions etc. Shows a serious lack of knowledge about how debates actually work in the chamber.
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Yes because if she was part of the older, unaccountable, unelected and more expensive system then she wouldn't be held to account.blackburn63 said:
Google Ann Barnes and tell me its money well spentHurstLlama said:
They may well be cheaper but PCCs seem no more effective that the old Police Authorities. They seem to be far to inclined to accept whatever nonsense their Chief Constable puts before them. However, it is early days, this is a very new post and idea. If in one part of the country a PCC starts kicking some bottom then we may well see the sort of democratic accountability that was envisioned.Richard_Nabavi said:The introduction of PCCs was one of Douglas Carswell's best ideas. As well as being more democratic, they are more cost-effective than the old system.
As part of the modern, elected and cheaper system she can be held to account.
Tell me why not holding her to account and spending more money would be better?0 -
Agreed - I wish Angus Robertson would edit himself - he talks in parentheses - I've no idea what point he's making after about 20 secs. And then he talks for another 5mins by which time I've put the kettle on.Scrapheap_as_was said:
Not a fan but good speech from Liam Fox there.
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Stack of bullsh8t about the 'quality' of the debate in HOC today.
I remember the 'quality of debate' before Iraq 2003 being of the highest order. Look what happened afterwards.0 -
Haha! I'm against the waste of public funds, the first PCC in Kent was Ann Barnes who has been an unmitigated and expensive disaster while police numbers are being cut.Richard_Nabavi said:
OK, we understand that you are violently against Douglas Carswell's views on local democracy and PCCs, but on the latter point, are you advocating a return to the old system, or just ranting?blackburn63 said:Cutting the deficit means minimising waste, Diversity Officers and PCCs are a start.
Somebody mentioned earlier that you are keen to misrepresent if people disagree with you, I'd say your above post is perfect evidence.
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He is an idiot. There is precedent for this condition. Corbyn for I stance is clearly quite dim.Philip_Thompson said:
Considering I was quoting your words (OK I added bleating and whining) the idea of complaining about abuse is particularly amusing. Especially when you go on to make insults. The irony is strong with this one.blackburn63 said:
Abusing again Mr Thompson? Eschewing the opportunity to read something that may contradict your partisan view?Philip_Thompson said:
No I didn't read the link because I disagree. Turnout was over 5 million people, that isn't pathetic. What is pathetic is your bleating and whining.blackburn63 said:
Utter nonsense, did you read the link? Turnout is pathetic, few people care, money is wasted, police funding is cut, it says everything about modern tories that they defend this sort of thing. In a minute you'll be telling us the importance of cutting the deficit.Philip_Thompson said:
I couldn't care less about turnout. I cared so I voted, if people who don't care don't vote then so what? Let the people who care vote - over 5 million chose to vote so that's not nobody in my eyes.blackburn63 said:
I don't want to vote for anybody, I want the money spent on policemen. The % turnout is so pitifully low you have to assume that virtually nobody cares.oxfordsimon said:
The point is that now we have some direct democratic oversight through the PCCs. If you don't like the direction your local force is taking, you have the right to vote in someone who will do a better job.blackburn63 said:
Amazes me how the tories on here go out of their way to justify things. Its like those ridiculous PCCs, money that should be spent on coppers - guess who introduced them?Philip_Thompson said:
No they simply don't. Local government raises a large portion of its funding directly and if it chooses to waste it then there is little Central government can do.blackburn63 said:Govt controls local govt budgets of course its his fault.
B b b b b ut
There will always be people in charge of the Police, always have been, so the suggestion the money should be spent on cops instead is a false dichotomy.
I'd love to be a tory, its like a 5 year old from Surrey supporting Man Utd because they won the league.
I'm no glory hunter. I agree with the Tories because I agree with them - as do more voters apparently. That's not us being most popular because we won but we won because we were most popular. Get your head around that one if you're able to.0 -
I imagine it's 2.JosiasJessop said:There are several possible answers to your question:
1) They are not, as you say.
2) It is not the 'government' doing it, but smugglers within their borders.
3) The ISIS oil is cheaper than Kurdistan's own production, because they are selling it at a discount.
A more concerted effort on hitting the tankers should be a priority, I'd have thought. Very hard to hide them in a desert environment with usually clear skies and little cover.0 -
We can always stab him in the back after we've used him to help get rid of ISRichard_Tyndall said:
Farage was talking about either western troops or more likely forces from some of the surrounding ME countries. One of the problems we have is a current refusal by the US or European forces to act in concert with the Iranians or Assad forces. Outside of the Kurds they are the main ground opposition to IS and could fulfill much of the role we would otherwise ascribe to western ground troops. The trouble is of course we are wedded to getting rid of Assad.MaxPB said:
Isn't that the Ken Livingstone position? I don't disagree with it, but I don't see this country deploying ground forces for the foreseeable future, if there is a major terrorist attack by ISIS in the UK then I could see it, but as of now there doesn't seem to be much appetite among NATO to deploy troops to Syria and fight alongside the Russia/Iran/Assad alliance.Richard_Tyndall said:
Nope. It is against air strikes alone. Farage made clear a few days ago that UKIP are not opposed to intervention nor air strikes per se but they have to be as part of a coordinated effort in support of ground forces. His term was a 'grand coalition' including ground forces.MaxPB said:
Well that's another party split then, I think UKIP policy is against air strikes or any kind of intervention.edmundintokyo said:
Still undecided, per his tweets, but affecting to be more convinced by the PM.Richard_Nabavi said:Has Douglas Carswell said how he will vote? He voted in favour of action in Syria in 2013 IIRC.
0 -
Tell you what, let's have another tier holding her to account and then another and another until everybody is held to account by everybody. You've already stated you weren't interested in reading about the issue, you're making it up as you go along.Philip_Thompson said:
Yes because if she was part of the older, unaccountable, unelected and more expensive system then she wouldn't be held to account.blackburn63 said:
Google Ann Barnes and tell me its money well spentHurstLlama said:
They may well be cheaper but PCCs seem no more effective that the old Police Authorities. They seem to be far to inclined to accept whatever nonsense their Chief Constable puts before them. However, it is early days, this is a very new post and idea. If in one part of the country a PCC starts kicking some bottom then we may well see the sort of democratic accountability that was envisioned.Richard_Nabavi said:The introduction of PCCs was one of Douglas Carswell's best ideas. As well as being more democratic, they are more cost-effective than the old system.
As part of the modern, elected and cheaper system she can be held to account.
Tell me why not holding her to account and spending more money would be better?
Have you googled her? If so I'm keen to hear your (unbiased) view.
0 -
The beauty of the system is that if she has been a disaster she can be replaced. That is the point.blackburn63 said:
Haha! I'm against the waste of public funds, the first PCC in Kent was Ann Barnes who has been an unmitigated and expensive disaster while police numbers are being cut.Richard_Nabavi said:
OK, we understand that you are violently against Douglas Carswell's views on local democracy and PCCs, but on the latter point, are you advocating a return to the old system, or just ranting?blackburn63 said:Cutting the deficit means minimising waste, Diversity Officers and PCCs are a start.
Somebody mentioned earlier that you are keen to misrepresent if people disagree with you, I'd say your above post is perfect evidence.
Oh and the numbers would have been cut more if this streamlined system hadn't replaced the committees it replaced.0 -
How can I be misrepresenting, when I simply asked you a question. Are you advocating a return to the old system, or not? Yes or No will do.blackburn63 said:Haha! I'm against the waste of public funds, the first PCC in Kent was Ann Barnes who has been an unmitigated and expensive disaster while police numbers are being cut.
Somebody mentioned earlier that you are keen to misrepresent if people disagree with you, I'd say your above post is perfect evidence.
And if the answer is no, what are you advocating?
As for Ann Barnes, so what? Are you suggesting there was never any money wasted under the old system, or that having no-one overseeing the police would be better?0 -
On the last point it doesn't matter. IS could be almost giving the stuff away and it would still be a bad move economically for the Kurds to buy it if it means shutting down their own production. Shutting in oil wells is not just a case of turning off a tap. It is a long and quite costly process and if done wrong can kill an oil field permanently.JosiasJessop said:
Yet that is what the media say is happening.Richard_Tyndall said:Not sure why the Kurds would be buying oil from IS when they are having problems with selling enough of the stuff they are producing themselves. The Kurds are having to suspend production because they can't transport or sell the oil they produce from their own very extensive oil fields. And shutting down and restarting production is a hugely costly and potentially very damaging operation.
There are several possible answers to your question:
1) They are not, as you say.
2) It is not the 'government' doing it, but smugglers within their borders.
3) The ISIS oil is cheaper than Kurdistan's own production, because they are selling it at a discount.
http://uk.businessinsider.com/isis-making-50-million-a-month-from-oil-sales-2015-10?r=US&IR=T
As I say the Kurds are having trouble selling their own oil so I simply don't believe that they would be buying IS oil to sell on. It doesn't make sense in either the short, medium or long term. Smuggling is as you say a possibility but I would also question the sources that are claiming this is happening - particularly given that the Turks are so opposed to the Kurds and have every reason to undermine and discredit them.0 -
Makes more sense than your post.MonikerDiCanio said:
A silly, petulant and casually blasphemous tweet.dr_spyn said:0 -
That's very interesting, thanks.Tom said:
She is not well liked in the CLP by any part of the party - its not just the 3 quidders she's alienated most people. This has encouraged the ousters and according to NS there is some specific politics involving local councillors who have their eye on the seat.MaxPB said:
She is really out to the left as well so I don't understand the animosity. Maybe they see her as a potential rival to Corbyn.Casino_Royale said:
There is clearly something deeply personal going on with Stella Creasy and the Left of the party.dr_spyn said:
Obviously not helped by the wider atmosphere in the Party and Jeremy (Kinder, Gentler, We don't do personalities, he shares his sandwiches) Corbyn's not so veiled threats yesterday and encouragement of Momentum by those around him.0 -
Light relief
Labour party leader Jeremy Corbyn apparently making the case against UK strikes on ISIS through interpretive dance: https://t.co/Oolol0oxv80 -
The recent lather about Ozzie and May disagreeing on immigration is being fed by Nick Timothy, a former spad of May. He is disappointed he did not get a safe seat allocated to him at the GE. One wonders whether he would have speculated so much if he had become an MP and is it just his sour grapes?blackburn63 said:
Quite, the latest sham is Osborne falling out with May over immigration, he wants more she wants less. Still they're in govt so no matter, the lackies get to crow about it.Indigo said:
Cutting the deficit is an optional extra, did't you get the memo, the Blue Team winning is what matters even if to do so it has to become identical in many respects to the Red Team under Blair, including on current evidence, the same level of acquaintance with telling the truth to the voters.blackburn63 said:
Utter nonsense, did you read the link? Turnout is pathetic, few people care, money is wasted, police funding is cut, it says everything about modern tories that they defend this sort of thing. In a minute you'll be telling us the importance of cutting the deficit.Philip_Thompson said:
I couldn't care less about turnout. I cared so I voted, if people who don't care don't vote then so what? Let the people who care vote - over 5 million chose to vote so that's not nobody in my eyes.blackburn63 said:
I don't want to vote for anybody, I want the money spent on policemen. The % turnout is so pitifully low you have to assume that virtually nobody cares.oxfordsimon said:
The point is that now we have some direct democratic oversight through the PCCs. If you don't like the direction your local force is taking, you have the right to vote in someone who will do a better job.blackburn63 said:
Amazes me how the tories on here go out of their way to justify things. Its like those ridiculous PCCs, money that should be spent on coppers - guess who introduced them?Philip_Thompson said:
No they simply don't. Local government raises a large portion of its funding directly and if it chooses to waste it then there is little Central government can do.blackburn63 said:Govt controls local govt budgets of course its his fault.
B b b b b ut
There will always be people in charge of the Police, always have been, so the suggestion the money should be spent on cops instead is a false dichotomy.
0 -
Good speech by Blunt0
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Mr flightpath that is priceless, self awareness your strongpoint? Anybody who disagrees is an idiot. I'll save that for another time0
-
Mr Nabavi, this is what you said:
OK, we understand that you are violently against Douglas Carswell's views on local democracy
I'm very comfortable that is misrepresentation.0 -
Fair play to the Cardinal. The support of someone who is usually institutionally opposed to any war gives an idea of how urgently the whole area needs sorting out. Meanwhile Corbyn and his fellow travellers make idiots of themselves on the green benches.Plato_Says said:Britain’s most senior Roman Catholic cleric, Cardinal Vincent Nichols, has signalled support for air strikes against the so-called Islamic State as long as they are part of a wider strategy to create safe spaces. The Cardinal, who is leader of the Catholic Church in England and Wales, visited refugee camps in the region earlier this year where he met Christian and Muslim refugees.
0 -
No I don't think he said anyone, just a specific idiot is an idiot.blackburn63 said:Mr flightpath that is priceless, self awareness your strongpoint? Anybody who disagrees is an idiot. I'll save that for another time
Bit like not everyone who disagrees is a terrorist sympathiser, but terrorist sympathisers are.0 -
Superb actually.DaemonBarber said:Good speech by Blunt
0 -
It's more likely to be 1 and the source is a jumped up Erdogan supporting Turkish nationalist trying to discredit the PKK and weaken the Kurdish-US alliance.Richard_Nabavi said:
I imagine it's 2.JosiasJessop said:There are several possible answers to your question:
1) They are not, as you say.
2) It is not the 'government' doing it, but smugglers within their borders.
3) The ISIS oil is cheaper than Kurdistan's own production, because they are selling it at a discount.
A more concerted effort on hitting the tankers should be a priority, I'd have thought. Very hard to hide them in a desert environment with usually clear skies and little cover.0 -
True. We have done it often enough with other ME and North African governments.JohnLilburne said:
We can always stab him in the back after we've used him to help get rid of ISRichard_Tyndall said:
Farage was talking about either western troops or more likely forces from some of the surrounding ME countries. One of the problems we have is a current refusal by the US or European forces to act in concert with the Iranians or Assad forces. Outside of the Kurds they are the main ground opposition to IS and could fulfill much of the role we would otherwise ascribe to western ground troops. The trouble is of course we are wedded to getting rid of Assad.MaxPB said:
Isn't that the Ken Livingstone position? I don't disagree with it, but I don't see this country deploying ground forces for the foreseeable future, if there is a major terrorist attack by ISIS in the UK then I could see it, but as of now there doesn't seem to be much appetite among NATO to deploy troops to Syria and fight alongside the Russia/Iran/Assad alliance.Richard_Tyndall said:
Nope. It is against air strikes alone. Farage made clear a few days ago that UKIP are not opposed to intervention nor air strikes per se but they have to be as part of a coordinated effort in support of ground forces. His term was a 'grand coalition' including ground forces.MaxPB said:
Well that's another party split then, I think UKIP policy is against air strikes or any kind of intervention.edmundintokyo said:
Still undecided, per his tweets, but affecting to be more convinced by the PM.Richard_Nabavi said:Has Douglas Carswell said how he will vote? He voted in favour of action in Syria in 2013 IIRC.
0 -
That would be my guess as well. Nor are the Iraqis exactly friendly to the Kurds given they consider them a breakaway region.MaxPB said:
It's more likely to be 1 and the source is a jumped up Erdogan supporting Turkish nationalist trying to discredit the PKK and weaken the Kurdish-US alliance.Richard_Nabavi said:
I imagine it's 2.JosiasJessop said:There are several possible answers to your question:
1) They are not, as you say.
2) It is not the 'government' doing it, but smugglers within their borders.
3) The ISIS oil is cheaper than Kurdistan's own production, because they are selling it at a discount.
A more concerted effort on hitting the tankers should be a priority, I'd have thought. Very hard to hide them in a desert environment with usually clear skies and little cover.0 -
Which part is misrepresentation? The fact that Carswell supports local democracy (as he does) or that you don't (crystal clear in this thread.blackburn63 said:Mr Nabavi, this is what you said:
OK, we understand that you are violently against Douglas Carswell's views on local democracy
I'm very comfortable that is misrepresentation.
And for the umpteenth and final time if you oppose PCCs would you have kept the older and more expensive system and cut the front line Police by more? Or something else?0 -
I can see that. She was furious when The Sun ran a page three after she thought her campaign to ban it had been successful.Plato_Says said:She was pretty rude to me on Twitter and made misandist comments when she thought I was male. Then she blocked me.
I don't like her, but I'm surprised she's been alienating so many others too. She struck me as very full of herself.Tom said:
She is not well liked in the CLP by any part of the party - its not just the 3 quidders she's alienated most people. This has encouraged the ousters and according to NS there is some specific politics involving local councillors who have their eye on the seat.MaxPB said:
She is really out to the left as well so I don't understand the animosity. Maybe they see her as a potential rival to Corbyn.Casino_Royale said:
There is clearly something deeply personal going on with Stella Creasy and the Left of the party.dr_spyn said:
Obviously not helped by the wider atmosphere in the Party and Jeremy (Kinder, Gentler, We don't do personalities, he shares his sandwiches) Corbyn's not so veiled threats yesterday and encouragement of Momentum by those around him.
Personally, I wish those advocating more opportunities for women would work constructively to change attitudes with men in social situations and in the workplace to create more opportunities.
Campaigners like Stella seem rather combative and more interested in shooting down totems like soft pornography and giving a bollocking to the Bank of England (or anyone else) who doesn't always achieve a 50/50 split in their products.
I don't see as symptomatic of the former, and it feels to me like it's more about casting themselves in a role as a modern day suffragette.0 -
Nice try.Philip_Thompson said:
No I don't think he said anyone, just a specific idiot is an idiot.blackburn63 said:Mr flightpath that is priceless, self awareness your strongpoint? Anybody who disagrees is an idiot. I'll save that for another time
Bit like not everyone who disagrees is a terrorist sympathiser, but terrorist sympathisers are.
Anyway perhaps you'd like to comment on the conservative PCC Ann Barnes?
0 -
Well, you seemed to think that David Cameron should dictate to councils whether they should hire diversity officers or not. I hope I'm not misrepresenting you on that. Since Douglas Carswell is one of the foremost advocates of localism and local democracy, I'm pretty sure I'm not misrepresenting him in saying he wouldn't want the PM to dictate matters of detail like that, but please correct me if I'm wrong.blackburn63 said:Mr Nabavi, this is what you said:
OK, we understand that you are violently against Douglas Carswell's views on local democracy
I'm very comfortable that is misrepresentation.
Meanwhile, I'm agog to hear your no-doubt well-thought-out views on how the police should be supervised. At the risk of misrepresenting you, I think I've understood that you don't think Douglas Carswell's idea of PCCs is the optimal way, but we haven't heard what alternative you suggest.0 -
@Casino_Royale I think you've "triggered" me with your post.0
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Tankers can also be planes too, you know! (think KC-135s, VC-10s etc.)JohnLilburne said:
I was confused by "tankers". Road tankers must be quite easy targets.rcs1000 said:
These are trucks, not ships!JohnLilburne said:
You can't fight a war like that. What are attack submarines for?perdix said:
The Americans have recently been bombing the tankers which transport the oil. It was reported that they had previously been reluctant to do so because it would have involved the killing of "innocent" (but v well paid - $5000 a trip) civilian drivers. I think they drop leaflets before bombing now.MaxPB said:
Indeed, how can we target the oil sales without targeting the oil infrastructure? The US seem to be unwilling to bomb the oil infrastructure because it might piss off Turkey and Saudi Arabia, the Russians don't want to do it so that Assad will have an income stream should ISIS be defeated which leaves us and France to get on with it.Slackbladder said:Corbyn ignoring the very reasonable point about targeting oil supplies.
0 -
Oh no!Pulpstar said:@Casino_Royale I think you've "triggered" me with your post.
0 -
Margaret Beckett is talking very calmly and with great authority0
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Good measured speech by Ma Beckett here.0
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OK - Beckett is now the best speech so far0
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Best leader Labour never gave the perm job to.oxfordsimon said:
Margaret Beckett is talking very calmly and with great authority
0 -
Corbyn would have been more convincing doing Edwin Starr on a portable karaoke machine. Diane on backing vocals.
War! Huh! What is it good for. Absolutely nothing. I shall restrain myself from linking to Youtube.0 -
Beckett sounds authoritative and persuasive.
0 -
Both comments are IMO wrong. She's a centrist who has never got into the left-right stuff (I have no idea how she'll vote on Syria), and she's popular enough in the party to have come second out of six in the deputy leadership race from a standing start. It'd be a great pity if she were deselected and it's not very likely.Tom said:
She is not well liked in the CLP by any part of the party - its not just the 3 quidders she's alienated most people. This has encouraged the ousters and according to NS there is some specific politics involving local councillors who have their eye on the seat.MaxPB said:
She is really out to the left as well so I don't understand the animosity. Maybe they see her as a potential rival to Corbyn.Casino_Royale said:
There is clearly something deeply personal going on with Stella Creasy and the Left of the party.dr_spyn said:0 -
She's a former Foreign Secretary, when Iraq was turning to shit, Blair turned to her become Foreign Secretary.DaemonBarber said:Beckett sounds authoritative and persuasive.
0 -
Another superior back bench speech - Ma Beckett is making the speech Cameron should have made.....0
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I find your stance extraordinary, as a tory I assumed you were in favour of a small state but no, non jobs are being justified. You are obfuscating over a simple issue which is the waste of money while the deficit is supposedly being cut. You can cite Carswell all you like, the PCC in Kent has been an expensive and failed experiment. Do we still have an IPCC?Richard_Nabavi said:
Well, you seemed to think that David Cameron should dictate to councils whether they should hire diversity officers or not. I hope I'm not misrepresenting you on that. Since Douglas Carswell is one of the foremost advocates of localism and local democracy, I'm pretty sure I'm not misrepresenting him in saying he wouldn't want the PM to dictate matters of detail like that, but please correct me if I'm wrong.blackburn63 said:Mr Nabavi, this is what you said:
OK, we understand that you are violently against Douglas Carswell's views on local democracy
I'm very comfortable that is misrepresentation.
Meanwhile, I'm agog to hear your no-doubt well-thought-out views on how the police should be supervised. At the risk of misrepresenting you, I think I've understood that you don't think PCCs are the optimal way, but we haven't heard what alternative you suggest.0 -
Check your vanilla inbox.Casino_Royale said:
Oh no!Pulpstar said:@Casino_Royale I think you've "triggered" me with your post.
0 -
You are an idiot. Dim. It's self evident. Anyone who does not like Ann Barnes can vote against her or any successor who supports her.blackburn63 said:
Nice try.Philip_Thompson said:
No I don't think he said anyone, just a specific idiot is an idiot.blackburn63 said:Mr flightpath that is priceless, self awareness your strongpoint? Anybody who disagrees is an idiot. I'll save that for another time
Bit like not everyone who disagrees is a terrorist sympathiser, but terrorist sympathisers are.
Anyway perhaps you'd like to comment on the conservative PCC Ann Barnes?
Lest you misunderstand... You. Are. An. Idiot. Dim.0 -
Not wrong
Douglas Carswell MP @DouglasCarswell 4 mins4 minutes ago
Margaret Beckett MP making better case for military action than David Cameron0 -
Been hors de combat for the past few hours, have I missed much?
How was Jez?0 -
Ma Beckett needs to redeem herself from hoisting Corbyn to the Labour leadership.0
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Their is no need to have another tier of holding the PCC to account. He or she is accountable directly to the voters. If you don't like what she has been doing vote for someone else next time. If you feel really strongly about her performance get up and campaign for her removal.blackburn63 said:
Tell you what, let's have another tier holding her to account and then another and another until everybody is held to account by everybody. You've already stated you weren't interested in reading about the issue, you're making it up as you go along.Philip_Thompson said:
Yes because if she was part of the older, unaccountable, unelected and more expensive system then she wouldn't be held to account.blackburn63 said:
Google Ann Barnes and tell me its money well spentHurstLlama said:
They may well be cheaper but PCCs seem no more effective that the old Police Authorities. They seem to be far to inclined to accept whatever nonsense their Chief Constable puts before them. However, it is early days, this is a very new post and idea. If in one part of the country a PCC starts kicking some bottom then we may well see the sort of democratic accountability that was envisioned.Richard_Nabavi said:The introduction of PCCs was one of Douglas Carswell's best ideas. As well as being more democratic, they are more cost-effective than the old system.
As part of the modern, elected and cheaper system she can be held to account.
Tell me why not holding her to account and spending more money would be better?
Have you googled her? If so I'm keen to hear your (unbiased) view.
The one problem I do have with the PCC role is that political parties were allowed to join in. Once people vote along party lines then, in areas like Kent and Sussex, the role is diminished, it just becomes a matter of who the Conservative Party want (no doubt the same applies in reverse in Labour strongholds). The PCC has to behave outrageously before people would think about voting against their party and the role is not one that fits the political party model.0 -
Tell me again how the Conservatives feel about schools being controlled by LEAs ? Maybe not quite such fans of local government all the time ? Ok to say they are better not controlling schools in their area, but scandalous to say they can't fritter money on non-jobs. Really Mr N, you would argue black was white so long is the blue team wins the argument, don't pretend that principle, let alone Carswell's principle, a man you are usually happy to slag off, has anything to do with it.Richard_Nabavi said:
Well, you seemed to think that David Cameron should dictate to councils whether they should hire diversity officers or not. I hope I'm not misrepresenting you on that. Since Douglas Carswell is one of the foremost advocates of localism and local democracy, I'm pretty sure I'm not misrepresenting him in saying he wouldn't want the PM to dictate matters of detail like that, but please correct me if I'm wrong.blackburn63 said:Mr Nabavi, this is what you said:
OK, we understand that you are violently against Douglas Carswell's views on local democracy
I'm very comfortable that is misrepresentation.0 -
Baron doesn't have an alternative proposal. He goes on and on about his record - but can't actually say what he would do now.0
-
Good afternoon, everyone.
Watched a smidgen of the debate (with bad reception) whilst on the exercise bike. Not quite sure of Robertson's fixation on 70,000 helpful fellows on the ground.
Defeating Daesh won't sort out Syria by itself. Although the two are closely linked, they're not the same issue.0 -
Sadly it will take more than 1 solid speech to overcome thatPulpstar said:Ma Beckett needs to redeem herself from hoisting Corbyn to the Labour leadership.
0 -
South Yorkshire PCC is money for old rope if you get the Labour nod.HurstLlama said:
Their is no need to have another tier of holding the PCC to account. He or she is accountable directly to the voters. If you don't like what she has been doing vote for someone else next time. If you feel really strongly about her performance get up and campaign for her removal.blackburn63 said:
Tell you what, let's have another tier holding her to account and then another and another until everybody is held to account by everybody. You've already stated you weren't interested in reading about the issue, you're making it up as you go along.Philip_Thompson said:
Yes because if she was part of the older, unaccountable, unelected and more expensive system then she wouldn't be held to account.blackburn63 said:
Google Ann Barnes and tell me its money well spentHurstLlama said:
They may well be cheaper but PCCs seem no more effective that the old Police Authorities. They seem to be far to inclined to accept whatever nonsense their Chief Constable puts before them. However, it is early days, this is a very new post and idea. If in one part of the country a PCC starts kicking some bottom then we may well see the sort of democratic accountability that was envisioned.Richard_Nabavi said:The introduction of PCCs was one of Douglas Carswell's best ideas. As well as being more democratic, they are more cost-effective than the old system.
As part of the modern, elected and cheaper system she can be held to account.
Tell me why not holding her to account and spending more money would be better?
Have you googled her? If so I'm keen to hear your (unbiased) view.
The one problem I do have with the PCC role is that political parties were allowed to join in. Once people vote along party lines then, in areas like Kent and Sussex, the role is diminished, it just becomes a matter of who the Conservative Party want (no doubt the same applies in reverse in Labour strongholds). The PCC has to behave outrageously before people would think about voting against their party and the role is not one that fits the political party model.0 -
Mr. Simon, read here yesterday that he's apparently David Davis' glove puppet.
That said, there are entirely legitimate reasons to oppose air strikes.0 -
Lots of football managers are expensive and useless.blackburn63 said:
I find your stance extraordinary, as a tory I assumed you were in favour of a small state but no, non jobs are being justified. You are obfuscating over a simple issue which is the waste of money while the deficit is supposedly being cut. You can cite Carswell all you like, the PCC in Kent has been an expensive and failed experiment. Do we still have an IPCC?Richard_Nabavi said:
Well, you seemed to think that David Cameron should dictate to councils whether they should hire diversity officers or not. I hope I'm not misrepresenting you on that. Since Douglas Carswell is one of the foremost advocates of localism and local democracy, I'm pretty sure I'm not misrepresenting him in saying he wouldn't want the PM to dictate matters of detail like that, but please correct me if I'm wrong.blackburn63 said:Mr Nabavi, this is what you said:
OK, we understand that you are violently against Douglas Carswell's views on local democracy
I'm very comfortable that is misrepresentation.
Meanwhile, I'm agog to hear your no-doubt well-thought-out views on how the police should be supervised. At the risk of misrepresenting you, I think I've understood that you don't think PCCs are the optimal way, but we haven't heard what alternative you suggest.
Some are good.
Just because one is crap it is not a certainty that all are crap and the system is the worst imaginable.0 -
Hope your procedure went well!TheScreamingEagles said:Been hors de combat for the past few hours, have I missed much?
How was Jez?0 -
He isn't articulating them. It is a very incoherent set of comments from him.Morris_Dancer said:Mr. Simon, read here yesterday that he's apparently David Davis' glove puppet.
That said, there are entirely legitimate reasons to oppose air strikes.0 -
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Ma, ma, ma, maPlato_Says said:Good measured speech by Ma Beckett here.
Ma Beckett
She taught her four sons
Ma, ma, ma, ma
Ma Beckett
To handle their guns0 -
You reap what you sow. This is but a taste of what Corbyn's friends are going to unleash on the moderate Labour MPs if he is not removed and the entryists expelled by the NEC.NickPalmer said:
Both comments are IMO wrong. She's a centrist who has never got into the left-right stuff (I have no idea how she'll vote on Syria), and she's popular enough in the party to have come second out of six in the deputy leadership race from a standing start. It'd be a great pity if she were deselected and it's not very likely.Tom said:
She is not well liked in the CLP by any part of the party - its not just the 3 quidders she's alienated most people. This has encouraged the ousters and according to NS there is some specific politics involving local councillors who have their eye on the seat.MaxPB said:
She is really out to the left as well so I don't understand the animosity. Maybe they see her as a potential rival to Corbyn.Casino_Royale said:
There is clearly something deeply personal going on with Stella Creasy and the Left of the party.dr_spyn said:0 -
LOL! Talk about changing the subject to evade having to justify your nonsense.blackburn63 said:I find your stance extraordinary, as a tory I assumed you were in favour of a small state but no, non jobs are being justified. You are obfuscating over a simple issue which is the waste of money while the deficit is supposedly being cut. You can cite Carswell all you like, the PCC in Kent has been an expensive and failed experiment. Do we still have an IPCC?
Yes of course I'm in favour of not wasting money. As regards money spent on council employees, I'm in favour of the local council not wasting money. I am not in favour of micro-management by the PM (whom you seem to think is some kind of supreme dictator, or should be). With me so far? So if I want my local council not to waste money, I'll vote for councillors who will be good at that. Conservative councillors, usually.
I've no idea why you keep going on about Kent particularly. There are dozens of PCCs. I didn't vote for Ann Barnes, I don't live there. If I did live there I would examine her record at the next PCC election, and if I thought one of the other candidates would do a better job I'd vote for him or her. Did UKIP have a decent alternative candidate?
In any case, the merits or otherwise of one individual has almost nothing to do with the optimal way of structuring supervision of the police. I can only conclude that you are ranting at random, presumably because of your usual anti-Cameron obsession, because you don't seem to have an alternative suggestion.0 -
Team Labour at war illustrated
Sophie Wilkinson @sophwilkinson 5 mins5 minutes ago
FYI this seems to be Steve McCabe, Labour MP for Birmingham Selly Oak hiya @steve_mccabe
Sophie Wilkinson @sophwilkinson 10 mins10 minutes ago
More importantly ...
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I think you have summd it up well. It's a necessary first step, not least because they are the ones fermenting terrorism abroad. The 70000 fixation seems a particularly desperate grasping at a particularly thin straw.Morris_Dancer said:Good afternoon, everyone.
Watched a smidgen of the debate (with bad reception) whilst on the exercise bike. Not quite sure of Robertson's fixation on 70,000 helpful fellows on the ground.
Defeating Daesh won't sort out Syria by itself. Although the two are closely linked, they're not the same issue.0 -
If you oppose or disagree with the actions of the Kent PCC in office, then you have a right to remove her when she is next up for election. Why are you opposed to this extension of democracy?blackburn63 said:
I find your stance extraordinary, as a tory I assumed you were in favour of a small state but no, non jobs are being justified. You are obfuscating over a simple issue which is the waste of money while the deficit is supposedly being cut. You can cite Carswell all you like, the PCC in Kent has been an expensive and failed experiment. Do we still have an IPCC?Richard_Nabavi said:
Well, you seemed to think that David Cameron should dictate to councils whether they should hire diversity officers or not. I hope I'm not misrepresenting you on that. Since Douglas Carswell is one of the foremost advocates of localism and local democracy, I'm pretty sure I'm not misrepresenting him in saying he wouldn't want the PM to dictate matters of detail like that, but please correct me if I'm wrong.blackburn63 said:Mr Nabavi, this is what you said:
OK, we understand that you are violently against Douglas Carswell's views on local democracy
I'm very comfortable that is misrepresentation.
Meanwhile, I'm agog to hear your no-doubt well-thought-out views on how the police should be supervised. At the risk of misrepresenting you, I think I've understood that you don't think PCCs are the optimal way, but we haven't heard what alternative you suggest.0 -
Alan Johnson voting with the Govt0
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Postman Johnson up now. A good start from one of the few remaining statesmen on the Labour benches.0
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Johnson doing well too...0
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what an utter t***Scrapheap_as_was said:Team Labour at war illustrated
Sophie Wilkinson @sophwilkinson 5 mins5 minutes ago
FYI this seems to be Steve McCabe, Labour MP for Birmingham Selly Oak hiya @steve_mccabe
Sophie Wilkinson @sophwilkinson 10 mins10 minutes ago
More importantly ...
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No, it was Cameron's idiotic claim that there are 70,000 people on the ground willing to defeat ISIS. Half of those are just as bad as ISIS and the other half are only marginally better. Other than the Kurds, we have very few real allies in this fight. The FSA are mostly dead, the remnants are allied with al-Nusra, who now forms the main non-ISIS anti-Assad force. Cameron was wrong.flightpath01 said:
I think you have summd it up well. It's a necessary first step, not least because they are the ones fermenting terrorism abroad. The 70000 fixation seems a particularly desperate grasping at a particularly thin straw.Morris_Dancer said:Good afternoon, everyone.
Watched a smidgen of the debate (with bad reception) whilst on the exercise bike. Not quite sure of Robertson's fixation on 70,000 helpful fellows on the ground.
Defeating Daesh won't sort out Syria by itself. Although the two are closely linked, they're not the same issue.0 -
SNP again looking like tools0
This discussion has been closed.