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The three quidders have turned British politics from 'which chap can get into the centre fast enough' to a bloodsport.0
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Corbyn hasn't got answers to those who ask him to give way - so he has stopped giving way.
A very poor Parliamentary performance by Corbyn.0 -
Apparently it's something to do with the banks.MaxPB said:
Indeed, how can we target the oil sales without targeting the oil infrastructure? The US seem to be unwilling to bomb the oil infrastructure because it might piss off Turkey and Saudi Arabia, the Russians don't want to do it so that Assad will have an income stream should ISIS be defeated which leaves us and France to get on with it.Slackbladder said:Corbyn ignoring the very reasonable point about targeting oil supplies.
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@stellacreasy: For christs sake - I want to listen to debate in chamber but people ringing my office abusing my staff so dipping out to check ok! #syria0
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What a moron....And we are briefing this idiot with sensitive security information every week. Even bloody Ed Miliband was this moronic.JohnLilburne said:I really really don't think he should have given the name of that constituent whose family is in Raqqa
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Corbyn getting a bit angry....0
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Sadly an inner London council.blackburn63 said:
Please tell me this diversity officer is in the private sector, I hope we're not funding this sort of nonsenseMaxPB said:
A friend of mine had their secret santa at work cancelled by the diversity officer, she was unimpressed and now they have started an unofficial one with exactly the same people in it as last year, including two Muslims, a Buddhist and a Hindu. No one seemed that bothered according to her by the idea of of it being a Christian celebration, most just wanted to give a gift and go out for a drink while doing it.FrancisUrquhart said:
I guess it makes a change from claiming hurt on behalf of others, who actually don't give a s##t e.g the lefty councils who get their knickers in a twist about some Christmas tradition might offend some other faiths...when 99% of those supposed to be offend seem totally bemused by why the council seem to think that might be the case.Cyclefree said:We used to have a Left that liked to think it talked about issues (or "ishoos" as the late Tony Benn would have it). Now we have a Left that it is obsessed with its own feelings, particularly its hurt feelings.
Politics as a branch of psychotherapy. Who would ever have thought that this was what a genuine Left-wing alternative meant.
In fact a Muslim friend of mine is most upset today over a Christmas tradition....her animatronic Santa has stopped working. She is way more into Christmas than me.0 -
Would you like having Assad's lot around for tea? Or ISIL's lot?FrancisUrquhart said:
Having seen a documentary on some of the so called "moderates", there are plenty within those ranks who I don't fancy having around for tea.MaxPB said:
We have enough people on the ground to get a rough split. I also highly doubt that there are anything like 70,000 troops on the ground who are interested in defeating ISIS. If you include the regime forces, Hezbollah and the Iranian ground forces then it is possible, but I'm not sure the PM has said we are going to ally ourselves with them so they won't be in that figure.Pulpstar said:
Not sure how we'll know the exact split of that - are we going to drop a survey into all Al Nusra and FSA areas ?CarlottaVance said:At last! A sensible question from the SNP - Angus Robertson - what proportion of the 70,000 could be described as moderate, what fundamentalist.
Much better than Salmond's 'hurt feelings' grand standings......
We're not looking for someone to bring home to meet our mother, we're looking for the best of the lot. Whether you'd want them around is neither here nor there sadly.0 -
@DPJHodges: David Cameron's speech was undermined by his comments last night. Not his strongest. Corbyn's speech has been an insult to the House.
@bbclaurak: Corbyn is on edge of losing control here ....0 -
The Moggster is a master of the chamber.0
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Is Corbyn for real? I've been defending him lately, that'll learn meJohnLilburne said:I really really don't think he should have given the name of that constituent whose family is in Raqqa
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The fact they have a "Diversity Officer" in the first place is the problem.MaxPB said:
A friend of mine had their secret santa at work cancelled by the diversity officer, she was unimpressed and now they have started an unofficial one with exactly the same people in it as last year, including two Muslims, a Buddhist and a Hindu. No one seemed that bothered according to her by the idea of of it being a Christian celebration, most just wanted to give a gift and go out for a drink while doing it.FrancisUrquhart said:
I guess it makes a change from claiming hurt on behalf of others, who actually don't give a s##t e.g the lefty councils who get their knickers in a twist about some Christmas tradition might offend some other faiths...when 99% of those supposed to be offend seem totally bemused by why the council seem to think that might be the case.Cyclefree said:We used to have a Left that liked to think it talked about issues (or "ishoos" as the late Tony Benn would have it). Now we have a Left that it is obsessed with its own feelings, particularly its hurt feelings.
Politics as a branch of psychotherapy. Who would ever have thought that this was what a genuine Left-wing alternative meant.
In fact a Muslim friend of mine is most upset today over a Christmas tradition....her animatronic Santa has stopped working. She is way more into Christmas than me.
I'm currently in a Muslim but very diverse place. There will be plenty of massive Christmas trees up in public spaces here - as there were celebrations for Diwali last month. The idea that people of other religions will be offended by Christmas celebrations in the UK is complete bollox encouraged by the leftist 'offence industry'.0 -
@faisalislam: On a point of order Rees Mogg points out that Corbyn has not answered the repeated q on whether he backs airstrikes in Iraq ...0
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She should just look after her staff - there is going to be nothing said in this pointless debate that will make any real difference.Scott_P said:@stellacreasy: For christs sake - I want to listen to debate in chamber but people ringing my office abusing my staff so dipping out to check ok! #syria
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Just tuning in - is it really as awful as it sounds on here? I've grown to dislike seeing Corbyn more than Gordon - and that's saying a lot.
I'll need a stiff drink before tuning in to BBC Parly.0 -
Yes. How many body bags were there in Paris? Do you not see a need to fight this agression?MikeK said:
I certainly do not wish to see RAF casualties on any scale. However should the body bags start coming back will you look me in the eye @flightpath01flightpath01 said:
MikeK is talking utter ignorant garbage as per usual.Sandpit said:
Do any Syrians or the Daesh have anything capable of shooting down a Tornado? The only plane shot down in the last few months that I'm aware of was an old Ruski bomber that thought the Turkish wouldn't call their bluff.MikeK said:
So an underfunded airforce sends outmoded and obsolescent aircraft into battle. Should as little as 4 planes get shot down, the RAF is crippled.HurstLlama said:
The numbers given are the total numbers that will be available, assuming the eight Tornados currently in place continue. So a total crewed combat air force of 14 GR4 Tornados and a pair of Typhoons. Probably four to six planes flying each day.MikeK said:
What is the number of British planes available for Syria? The above numbers look pretty pathetic to me.MarkHopkins said:
Since we name our planes after weather, perhaps we can have some Misty Fogs and Light Rains available too.FrancisUrquhart said:
Two additional thoughts:
The Germans have volunteered to provide some of their Tornados but only for reconnaissance duties, no combat. That ought to take some of the existing load off of the RAF element and free up more sorties for dropping stuff.
The RAF Tornados now flying should have been retired from service by now, they have had their service life extended twice. In the 2010 strategic defence review Cameron and his sidekick said we would not need them.
I'm sure the RAF have sufficient kit to keep a few Tonkas in the air, this war will about taking a small number of strategic targets rather than something of the scale of Iraq.
How is it you cannot see this other than through the lense of trying to belittle the conservative party or our armedforces which with its brimstone missile is better equipped than at the time of the gulf war and the Falklands.
Just go away.0 -
@iainjwatson: So although its a free vote on the Labour benches, Jeremy Corbyn is arguing those MPs who vote for military action are in breach of policy0
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Disgusted but not surprised, so much for Cameron cutting the state.MaxPB said:
Sadly an inner London council.blackburn63 said:
Please tell me this diversity officer is in the private sector, I hope we're not funding this sort of nonsenseMaxPB said:
A friend of mine had their secret santa at work cancelled by the diversity officer, she was unimpressed and now they have started an unofficial one with exactly the same people in it as last year, including two Muslims, a Buddhist and a Hindu. No one seemed that bothered according to her by the idea of of it being a Christian celebration, most just wanted to give a gift and go out for a drink while doing it.FrancisUrquhart said:
I guess it makes a change from claiming hurt on behalf of others, who actually don't give a s##t e.g the lefty councils who get their knickers in a twist about some Christmas tradition might offend some other faiths...when 99% of those supposed to be offend seem totally bemused by why the council seem to think that might be the case.Cyclefree said:We used to have a Left that liked to think it talked about issues (or "ishoos" as the late Tony Benn would have it). Now we have a Left that it is obsessed with its own feelings, particularly its hurt feelings.
Politics as a branch of psychotherapy. Who would ever have thought that this was what a genuine Left-wing alternative meant.
In fact a Muslim friend of mine is most upset today over a Christmas tradition....her animatronic Santa has stopped working. She is way more into Christmas than me.
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The Americans have recently been bombing the tankers which transport the oil. It was reported that they had previously been reluctant to do so because it would have involved the killing of "innocent" (but v well paid - $5000 a trip) civilian drivers. I think they drop leaflets before bombing now.MaxPB said:
Indeed, how can we target the oil sales without targeting the oil infrastructure? The US seem to be unwilling to bomb the oil infrastructure because it might piss off Turkey and Saudi Arabia, the Russians don't want to do it so that Assad will have an income stream should ISIS be defeated which leaves us and France to get on with it.Slackbladder said:Corbyn ignoring the very reasonable point about targeting oil supplies.
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What is your weapon @watford, jamrags at dawn? Get stuffed!watford30 said:
Yes you are, and I'm more than happy to call you out for it.MikeK said:
I'm not belittling and insulting and insulting any of our RAF brothers, only those that send brave flyers into battle in obsolescent aircraft; no matter how well maintained. What a twat you are @watford30.watford30 said:
Tornados remain a potent weapon of war, maintained, armed and operated to the highest standards by the RAF.MikeK said:
So an underfunded airforce sends outmoded and obsolescent aircraft into battle. Should as little as 4 planes get shot down, the RAF is crippled.HurstLlama said:
The numbers given are the total numbers that will be available, assuming the eight Tornados currently in place continue. So a total crewed combat air force of 14 GR4 Tornados and a pair of Typhoons. Probably four to six planes flying each day.MikeK said:
What is the number of British planes available for Syria? The above numbers look pretty pathetic to me.MarkHopkins said:
Since we name our planes after weather, perhaps we can have some Misty Fogs and Light Rains available too.FrancisUrquhart said:
Two additional thoughts:
The Germans have volunteered to provide some of their Tornados but only for reconnaissance duties, no combat. That ought to take some of the existing load off of the RAF element and free up more sorties for dropping stuff.
The RAF Tornados now flying should have been retired from service by now, they have had their service life extended twice. In the 2010 strategic defence review Cameron and his sidekick said we would not need them.
Why do you insist on belittling and insulting those who fly and prepare these aircraft to carry out missions in hostile airspace?0 -
A master debater, in factMikeK said:Jezzabel is a very poor orator. I was led to understand that he was a master of the art.
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@SusanCalman: I must applaud the BBC for this live episode of House of Cards. The SFX are great. Especially the discomfort on the Labour front bench.0
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You want government veto of all council appointments ?blackburn63 said:
Disgusted but not surprised, so much for Cameron cutting the state.MaxPB said:
Sadly an inner London council.blackburn63 said:
Please tell me this diversity officer is in the private sector, I hope we're not funding this sort of nonsenseMaxPB said:
A friend of mine had their secret santa at work cancelled by the diversity officer, she was unimpressed and now they have started an unofficial one with exactly the same people in it as last year, including two Muslims, a Buddhist and a Hindu. No one seemed that bothered according to her by the idea of of it being a Christian celebration, most just wanted to give a gift and go out for a drink while doing it.FrancisUrquhart said:
I guess it makes a change from claiming hurt on behalf of others, who actually don't give a s##t e.g the lefty councils who get their knickers in a twist about some Christmas tradition might offend some other faiths...when 99% of those supposed to be offend seem totally bemused by why the council seem to think that might be the case.Cyclefree said:We used to have a Left that liked to think it talked about issues (or "ishoos" as the late Tony Benn would have it). Now we have a Left that it is obsessed with its own feelings, particularly its hurt feelings.
Politics as a branch of psychotherapy. Who would ever have thought that this was what a genuine Left-wing alternative meant.
In fact a Muslim friend of mine is most upset today over a Christmas tradition....her animatronic Santa has stopped working. She is way more into Christmas than me.0 -
Hopefully they get out of there before ISIS find them and execute them for having a "traitor" in their family.JohnLilburne said:I really really don't think he should have given the name of that constituent whose family is in Raqqa
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Nope. It is against air strikes alone. Farage made clear a few days ago that UKIP are not opposed to intervention nor air strikes per se but they have to be as part of a coordinated effort in support of ground forces. His term was a 'grand coalition' including ground forces.MaxPB said:
Well that's another party split then, I think UKIP policy is against air strikes or any kind of intervention.edmundintokyo said:
Still undecided, per his tweets, but affecting to be more convinced by the PM.Richard_Nabavi said:Has Douglas Carswell said how he will vote? He voted in favour of action in Syria in 2013 IIRC.
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Hearing unconfirmed reports the PLP is to try and hold a vote on replacing Corbyn with an animatronic dog called Flopsy.
Whilst incapable of enunciating spoken words, Flopsy has an impeccable record when it comes to opposing terrorism. Superior toilet training also means he is unlikely to shit all over his colleagues. Unlike the incumbent.0 -
@MrJohnNicolson: Waves of hostility from the Labour backbenchers towards Corbyn. He is lonely at the dispatch box.0
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The Typhoon does an annual display at the Dartmouth Regatta. The element of the display where it does its extremely slow fly pasts and then the way it stands on its tail and disappears from view in moments is a high point. Helluva piece of kit.Richard_Tyndall said:As an aside the Typhoons were practicing air to air combat over the Lincoln Edge today. Actually quite strange to see how close they got to each other given that the main strategy seems to be stand off and use missiles. Also interesting to see how quickly they can turn and appear to stand still at times.
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He went on a rant in an interview with LauraK last night about this. Apparently just like Charlotte Church and Prince Charles think the Syrian civil war is all about climate change, Jez thinks the fault lies with the "banksters".JohnLilburne said:
Apparently it's something to do with the banks.MaxPB said:
Indeed, how can we target the oil sales without targeting the oil infrastructure? The US seem to be unwilling to bomb the oil infrastructure because it might piss off Turkey and Saudi Arabia, the Russians don't want to do it so that Assad will have an income stream should ISIS be defeated which leaves us and France to get on with it.Slackbladder said:Corbyn ignoring the very reasonable point about targeting oil supplies.
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Patrick Wintour @patrickwintour 52s53 seconds ago
Corbyn should be honest and admit he is opposed to UK air strikes in Iraq. It is a logical and honourable view.0 -
@rafaelbehr: Corbyn: 'I'm not giving way, I'm going to go on with my speech.' His leadership in summary.0
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Corbyn doing his grumpy Geography teacher schtick.0
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You can't fight a war like that. What are attack submarines for?perdix said:
The Americans have recently been bombing the tankers which transport the oil. It was reported that they had previously been reluctant to do so because it would have involved the killing of "innocent" (but v well paid - $5000 a trip) civilian drivers. I think they drop leaflets before bombing now.MaxPB said:
Indeed, how can we target the oil sales without targeting the oil infrastructure? The US seem to be unwilling to bomb the oil infrastructure because it might piss off Turkey and Saudi Arabia, the Russians don't want to do it so that Assad will have an income stream should ISIS be defeated which leaves us and France to get on with it.Slackbladder said:Corbyn ignoring the very reasonable point about targeting oil supplies.
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@ShippersUnbound: Debate so far: Cameron angered the house. Corbyn has lost the house.0
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It's not really Cameron's fault, it is just the culture of these lefty councils, they waste so much on green initiatives, diversity initiatives and cut back on libraries, health and fitness and other much needed services.blackburn63 said:
Disgusted but not surprised, so much for Cameron cutting the state.MaxPB said:
Sadly an inner London council.blackburn63 said:
Please tell me this diversity officer is in the private sector, I hope we're not funding this sort of nonsenseMaxPB said:
A friend of mine had their secret santa at work cancelled by the diversity officer, she was unimpressed and now they have started an unofficial one with exactly the same people in it as last year, including two Muslims, a Buddhist and a Hindu. No one seemed that bothered according to her by the idea of of it being a Christian celebration, most just wanted to give a gift and go out for a drink while doing it.FrancisUrquhart said:
I guess it makes a change from claiming hurt on behalf of others, who actually don't give a s##t e.g the lefty councils who get their knickers in a twist about some Christmas tradition might offend some other faiths...when 99% of those supposed to be offend seem totally bemused by why the council seem to think that might be the case.Cyclefree said:We used to have a Left that liked to think it talked about issues (or "ishoos" as the late Tony Benn would have it). Now we have a Left that it is obsessed with its own feelings, particularly its hurt feelings.
Politics as a branch of psychotherapy. Who would ever have thought that this was what a genuine Left-wing alternative meant.
In fact a Muslim friend of mine is most upset today over a Christmas tradition....her animatronic Santa has stopped working. She is way more into Christmas than me.0 -
These are trucks, not ships!JohnLilburne said:
You can't fight a war like that. What are attack submarines for?perdix said:
The Americans have recently been bombing the tankers which transport the oil. It was reported that they had previously been reluctant to do so because it would have involved the killing of "innocent" (but v well paid - $5000 a trip) civilian drivers. I think they drop leaflets before bombing now.MaxPB said:
Indeed, how can we target the oil sales without targeting the oil infrastructure? The US seem to be unwilling to bomb the oil infrastructure because it might piss off Turkey and Saudi Arabia, the Russians don't want to do it so that Assad will have an income stream should ISIS be defeated which leaves us and France to get on with it.Slackbladder said:Corbyn ignoring the very reasonable point about targeting oil supplies.
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Urgh. Jamrags, really?MikeK said:
What is your weapon @watford, jamrags at dawn? Get stuffed!watford30 said:
Yes you are, and I'm more than happy to call you out for it.MikeK said:
I'm not belittling and insulting and insulting any of our RAF brothers, only those that send brave flyers into battle in obsolescent aircraft; no matter how well maintained. What a twat you are @watford30.watford30 said:
Tornados remain a potent weapon of war, maintained, armed and operated to the highest standards by the RAF.MikeK said:
So an underfunded airforce sends outmoded and obsolescent aircraft into battle. Should as little as 4 planes get shot down, the RAF is crippled.HurstLlama said:
The numbers given are the total numbers that will be available, assuming the eight Tornados currently in place continue. So a total crewed combat air force of 14 GR4 Tornados and a pair of Typhoons. Probably four to six planes flying each day.MikeK said:
What is the number of British planes available for Syria? The above numbers look pretty pathetic to me.MarkHopkins said:
Since we name our planes after weather, perhaps we can have some Misty Fogs and Light Rains available too.FrancisUrquhart said:
Two additional thoughts:
The Germans have volunteered to provide some of their Tornados but only for reconnaissance duties, no combat. That ought to take some of the existing load off of the RAF element and free up more sorties for dropping stuff.
The RAF Tornados now flying should have been retired from service by now, they have had their service life extended twice. In the 2010 strategic defence review Cameron and his sidekick said we would not need them.
Why do you insist on belittling and insulting those who fly and prepare these aircraft to carry out missions in hostile airspace?0 -
No, I want us to stop spunking money on non jobs. That diversity officer could be doing something useful for the money.TGOHF said:
You want government veto of all council appointments ?blackburn63 said:
Disgusted but not surprised, so much for Cameron cutting the state.MaxPB said:
Sadly an inner London council.blackburn63 said:
Please tell me this diversity officer is in the private sector, I hope we're not funding this sort of nonsenseMaxPB said:
A friend of mine had their secret santa at work cancelled by the diversity officer, she was unimpressed and now they have started an unofficial one with exactly the same people in it as last year, including two Muslims, a Buddhist and a Hindu. No one seemed that bothered according to her by the idea of of it being a Christian celebration, most just wanted to give a gift and go out for a drink while doing it.FrancisUrquhart said:
I guess it makes a change from claiming hurt on behalf of others, who actually don't give a s##t e.g the lefty councils who get their knickers in a twist about some Christmas tradition might offend some other faiths...when 99% of those supposed to be offend seem totally bemused by why the council seem to think that might be the case.Cyclefree said:We used to have a Left that liked to think it talked about issues (or "ishoos" as the late Tony Benn would have it). Now we have a Left that it is obsessed with its own feelings, particularly its hurt feelings.
Politics as a branch of psychotherapy. Who would ever have thought that this was what a genuine Left-wing alternative meant.
In fact a Muslim friend of mine is most upset today over a Christmas tradition....her animatronic Santa has stopped working. She is way more into Christmas than me.
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My point was that this 70,000 rag bag assortment of groups contain quite a lot of people who aren't what we would describe as moderate. The Free Syrian Army is supposed to be all in favour of secularism, from the Vice film I watched on them they didn't do a very good job in illustrating that. And the Kurdish forces are made up of some banned terrorist groups and who also hate one another.Philip_Thompson said:
Would you like having Assad's lot around for tea? Or ISIL's lot?FrancisUrquhart said:
Having seen a documentary on some of the so called "moderates", there are plenty within those ranks who I don't fancy having around for tea.MaxPB said:
We have enough people on the ground to get a rough split. I also highly doubt that there are anything like 70,000 troops on the ground who are interested in defeating ISIS. If you include the regime forces, Hezbollah and the Iranian ground forces then it is possible, but I'm not sure the PM has said we are going to ally ourselves with them so they won't be in that figure.Pulpstar said:
Not sure how we'll know the exact split of that - are we going to drop a survey into all Al Nusra and FSA areas ?CarlottaVance said:At last! A sensible question from the SNP - Angus Robertson - what proportion of the 70,000 could be described as moderate, what fundamentalist.
Much better than Salmond's 'hurt feelings' grand standings......
We're not looking for someone to bring home to meet our mother, we're looking for the best of the lot. Whether you'd want them around is neither here nor there sadly.
That is all I was pointing out.0 -
The Russians don't bother with the leaflets....perdix said:
The Americans have recently been bombing the tankers which transport the oil. It was reported that they had previously been reluctant to do so because it would have involved the killing of "innocent" (but v well paid - $5000 a trip) civilian drivers. I think they drop leaflets before bombing now.MaxPB said:
Indeed, how can we target the oil sales without targeting the oil infrastructure? The US seem to be unwilling to bomb the oil infrastructure because it might piss off Turkey and Saudi Arabia, the Russians don't want to do it so that Assad will have an income stream should ISIS be defeated which leaves us and France to get on with it.Slackbladder said:Corbyn ignoring the very reasonable point about targeting oil supplies.
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Alan Duncan has a knighthood? I missed that...0
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Check my link down thread. Stoke plod, £200k on a new website, while cutting the plod numbers.MaxPB said:
It's not really Cameron's fault, it is just the culture of these lefty councils, they waste so much on green initiatives, diversity initiatives and cut back on libraries, health and fitness and other much needed services.blackburn63 said:
Disgusted but not surprised, so much for Cameron cutting the state.MaxPB said:
Sadly an inner London council.blackburn63 said:
Please tell me this diversity officer is in the private sector, I hope we're not funding this sort of nonsenseMaxPB said:
A friend of mine had their secret santa at work cancelled by the diversity officer, she was unimpressed and now they have started an unofficial one with exactly the same people in it as last year, including two Muslims, a Buddhist and a Hindu. No one seemed that bothered according to her by the idea of of it being a Christian celebration, most just wanted to give a gift and go out for a drink while doing it.FrancisUrquhart said:
I guess it makes a change from claiming hurt on behalf of others, who actually don't give a s##t e.g the lefty councils who get their knickers in a twist about some Christmas tradition might offend some other faiths...when 99% of those supposed to be offend seem totally bemused by why the council seem to think that might be the case.Cyclefree said:We used to have a Left that liked to think it talked about issues (or "ishoos" as the late Tony Benn would have it). Now we have a Left that it is obsessed with its own feelings, particularly its hurt feelings.
Politics as a branch of psychotherapy. Who would ever have thought that this was what a genuine Left-wing alternative meant.
In fact a Muslim friend of mine is most upset today over a Christmas tradition....her animatronic Santa has stopped working. She is way more into Christmas than me.0 -
That was a full on rant for a STW rally from Corbyn there.Scott_P said:
@MrJohnNicolson: Waves of hostility from the Labour backbenchers towards Corbyn. He is lonely at the dispatch box.
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Typhoons have ground attack capability now as well.MarqueeMark said:
The Typhoon does an annual display at the Dartmouth Regatta. The element of the display where it does its extremely slow fly pasts and then the way it stands on its tail and disappears from view in moments is a high point. Helluva piece of kit.Richard_Tyndall said:As an aside the Typhoons were practicing air to air combat over the Lincoln Edge today. Actually quite strange to see how close they got to each other given that the main strategy seems to be stand off and use missiles. Also interesting to see how quickly they can turn and appear to stand still at times.
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Isn't that the Ken Livingstone position? I don't disagree with it, but I don't see this country deploying ground forces for the foreseeable future, if there is a major terrorist attack by ISIS in the UK then I could see it, but as of now there doesn't seem to be much appetite among NATO to deploy troops to Syria and fight alongside the Russia/Iran/Assad alliance.Richard_Tyndall said:
Nope. It is against air strikes alone. Farage made clear a few days ago that UKIP are not opposed to intervention nor air strikes per se but they have to be as part of a coordinated effort in support of ground forces. His term was a 'grand coalition' including ground forces.MaxPB said:
Well that's another party split then, I think UKIP policy is against air strikes or any kind of intervention.edmundintokyo said:
Still undecided, per his tweets, but affecting to be more convinced by the PM.Richard_Nabavi said:Has Douglas Carswell said how he will vote? He voted in favour of action in Syria in 2013 IIRC.
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Govt controls local govt budgets of course its his fault.MaxPB said:
It's not really Cameron's fault, it is just the culture of these lefty councils, they waste so much on green initiatives, diversity initiatives and cut back on libraries, health and fitness and other much needed services.blackburn63 said:
Disgusted but not surprised, so much for Cameron cutting the state.MaxPB said:
Sadly an inner London council.blackburn63 said:
Please tell me this diversity officer is in the private sector, I hope we're not funding this sort of nonsenseMaxPB said:
A friend of mine had their secret santa at work cancelled by the diversity officer, she was unimpressed and now they have started an unofficial one with exactly the same people in it as last year, including two Muslims, a Buddhist and a Hindu. No one seemed that bothered according to her by the idea of of it being a Christian celebration, most just wanted to give a gift and go out for a drink while doing it.FrancisUrquhart said:
I guess it makes a change from claiming hurt on behalf of others, who actually don't give a s##t e.g the lefty councils who get their knickers in a twist about some Christmas tradition might offend some other faiths...when 99% of those supposed to be offend seem totally bemused by why the council seem to think that might be the case.Cyclefree said:We used to have a Left that liked to think it talked about issues (or "ishoos" as the late Tony Benn would have it). Now we have a Left that it is obsessed with its own feelings, particularly its hurt feelings.
Politics as a branch of psychotherapy. Who would ever have thought that this was what a genuine Left-wing alternative meant.
In fact a Muslim friend of mine is most upset today over a Christmas tradition....her animatronic Santa has stopped working. She is way more into Christmas than me.
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Half of me would like to think that the Saudi action in oversupplying oil to drive the US frackers out of business might start to turn opinion against them. The problem of course being that the average American just sees the resultant lower oil price as a good thing.MaxPB said:
Indeed, how can we target the oil sales without targeting the oil infrastructure? The US seem to be unwilling to bomb the oil infrastructure because it might piss off Turkey and Saudi Arabia, the Russians don't want to do it so that Assad will have an income stream should ISIS be defeated which leaves us and France to get on with it.Slackbladder said:Corbyn ignoring the very reasonable point about targeting oil supplies.
Here in the UAE they've removed the long-established govt subsidy of petrol with almost no affect on the pump price, that will obviously change rapidly once the oil price goes back up!0 -
I was confused by "tankers". Road tankers must be quite easy targets.rcs1000 said:
These are trucks, not ships!JohnLilburne said:
You can't fight a war like that. What are attack submarines for?perdix said:
The Americans have recently been bombing the tankers which transport the oil. It was reported that they had previously been reluctant to do so because it would have involved the killing of "innocent" (but v well paid - $5000 a trip) civilian drivers. I think they drop leaflets before bombing now.MaxPB said:
Indeed, how can we target the oil sales without targeting the oil infrastructure? The US seem to be unwilling to bomb the oil infrastructure because it might piss off Turkey and Saudi Arabia, the Russians don't want to do it so that Assad will have an income stream should ISIS be defeated which leaves us and France to get on with it.Slackbladder said:Corbyn ignoring the very reasonable point about targeting oil supplies.
0 -
He wants any feeble excuse to be anti Cameron.TGOHF said:
You want government veto of all council appointments ?blackburn63 said:
Disgusted but not surprised, so much for Cameron cutting the state.MaxPB said:
Sadly an inner London council.blackburn63 said:
Please tell me this diversity officer is in the private sector, I hope we're not funding this sort of nonsenseMaxPB said:
A friend of mine had their secret santa at work cancelled by the diversity officer, she was unimpressed and now they have started an unofficial one with exactly the same people in it as last year, including two Muslims, a Buddhist and a Hindu. No one seemed that bothered according to her by the idea of of it being a Christian celebration, most just wanted to give a gift and go out for a drink while doing it.FrancisUrquhart said:
I guess it makes a change from claiming hurt on behalf of others, who actually don't give a s##t e.g the lefty councils who get their knickers in a twist about some Christmas tradition might offend some other faiths...when 99% of those supposed to be offend seem totally bemused by why the council seem to think that might be the case.Cyclefree said:We used to have a Left that liked to think it talked about issues (or "ishoos" as the late Tony Benn would have it). Now we have a Left that it is obsessed with its own feelings, particularly its hurt feelings.
Politics as a branch of psychotherapy. Who would ever have thought that this was what a genuine Left-wing alternative meant.
In fact a Muslim friend of mine is most upset today over a Christmas tradition....her animatronic Santa has stopped working. She is way more into Christmas than me.0 -
You have got to be f##king me. There is no way anybody rocks up in ISIL controlled territory as an "innocent". It is about as believable as the excuse from the mother of the suicide bomber in Paris, he didn't mean to he just got a bit stressed.MarqueeMark said:
The Russians don't bother with the leaflets....perdix said:
The Americans have recently been bombing the tankers which transport the oil. It was reported that they had previously been reluctant to do so because it would have involved the killing of "innocent" (but v well paid - $5000 a trip) civilian drivers. I think they drop leaflets before bombing now.MaxPB said:
Indeed, how can we target the oil sales without targeting the oil infrastructure? The US seem to be unwilling to bomb the oil infrastructure because it might piss off Turkey and Saudi Arabia, the Russians don't want to do it so that Assad will have an income stream should ISIS be defeated which leaves us and France to get on with it.Slackbladder said:Corbyn ignoring the very reasonable point about targeting oil supplies.
Yeah well I was backpacking around Syria on my gap yaahhhh and I ran out of cash. Then this nice man asked me if I would like to drive a truck. Nothing dodgy he said, just drive this truck to the border and they will give me $5k. I do wish he didn't keep shouting Allahu Akbar though, it gave me a right headache.0 -
Thats a fair comment, but you really should include those unsuccessful people that we are aware of too.rcs1000 said:
There are 50 million Muslims living in Europe and North America.isam said:
If there were as many Germans in England in 1939 as there are Muslims now, I think it would have been more difficultrcs1000 said:
The problem with that argument is that is results in constant appeasement and inaction. When would we have stood up the Nazis? Warsaw, Paris or Watford Gap Service Station?isam said:
I don't think we were safe before, noFloater said:
You think we were safe before?isam said:For people that live or work in or close to London, would you say bombing Syria will make you feel safer in the capital over the next month or so?
Also do you think it's right that our actions or otherwise are dictated by fear?
But the question is "will we be safer or less safe if we bomb Syria"?
It's not about fear, the governments job is to protect it's population, and so if bombing Syria increases the risk of an attack here, even if we were at risk before, then they are not doing their job
Maybe it will make us safer, I am not closed minded about it, but it makes me feel less safe
A bigger problem with bombing Syria must be that - on its own - it will do little more than convert a few more of the local population into true Jihadis and kill a bunch of civilians.
Just as ISIS bombing us doesn't make us think "You know what! Let's get out of the Middle East", I suspect us bombing ISIS won't make them think "You know what! Let's stop our war on the West."
Bombing on its own is an irritant. It couldn't topple Nazi Germany. It couldn't win the war in Vietnam. I doubt it will be particularly effective here. Destroying ISIS probably requires boots o the ground, and a commitment from a wide range of countries to spend 25 years building up secular civil society in the region post an invasion. Are we up for that? Probably not. Yet, that is what is realistically required. Otherwise, we're beating our chest and making a big noise, but doing relatively little to stop ISIS.
I am just asking questions that give me pause for thought... instinctively I think we should wipe them out.. but I don't trust my instincts!
I get a feeling of our bombing being akin to pressing a switch that detonates a load of bombs that have been planted over here, but that's prob just being melodramatic
Over the last 15 years of Islamic terrorism (assuming we start with 9/11), there have been maybe a dozen individuals from those countries that have successfully initiated terrorist attacks.
Saying that, this is not an excuse for inaction.0 -
Corbyn had absolutely nothing to say about defeating terrorists.
I wonder why not0 -
I can't see how voting against air strikes now would help there to be a more coordinated attack in the future.MaxPB said:
Isn't that the Ken Livingstone position? I don't disagree with it, but I don't see this country deploying ground forces for the foreseeable future, if there is a major terrorist attack by ISIS in the UK then I could see it, but as of now there doesn't seem to be much appetite among NATO to deploy troops to Syria and fight alongside the Russia/Iran/Assad alliance.Richard_Tyndall said:
Nope. It is against air strikes alone. Farage made clear a few days ago that UKIP are not opposed to intervention nor air strikes per se but they have to be as part of a coordinated effort in support of ground forces. His term was a 'grand coalition' including ground forces.MaxPB said:
Well that's another party split then, I think UKIP policy is against air strikes or any kind of intervention.edmundintokyo said:
Still undecided, per his tweets, but affecting to be more convinced by the PM.Richard_Nabavi said:Has Douglas Carswell said how he will vote? He voted in favour of action in Syria in 2013 IIRC.
0 -
Also, can someone explain to me why we have 150 or so very expensive Typhoon aircraft and yet we are deploying older Tornados to the theatre? Is the Typhoon not suited to the bombing campaign, I seem to remember it being used in Libya and it is a multi-role jet.0
-
Perhaps they're ships of the desert
JohnLilburne said:
I was confused by "tankers". Road tankers must be quite easy targets.rcs1000 said:
These are trucks, not ships!JohnLilburne said:
You can't fight a war like that. What are attack submarines for?perdix said:
The Americans have recently been bombing the tankers which transport the oil. It was reported that they had previously been reluctant to do so because it would have involved the killing of "innocent" (but v well paid - $5000 a trip) civilian drivers. I think they drop leaflets before bombing now.MaxPB said:
Indeed, how can we target the oil sales without targeting the oil infrastructure? The US seem to be unwilling to bomb the oil infrastructure because it might piss off Turkey and Saudi Arabia, the Russians don't want to do it so that Assad will have an income stream should ISIS be defeated which leaves us and France to get on with it.Slackbladder said:Corbyn ignoring the very reasonable point about targeting oil supplies.
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No Conservative Police & Crime Commissioners then?FrancisUrquhart said:
Check my link down thread. Stoke plod, £200k on a new website, while cutting the plod numbers.MaxPB said:
It's not really Cameron's fault, it is just the culture of these lefty councils, they waste so much on green initiatives, diversity initiatives and cut back on libraries, health and fitness and other much needed services.blackburn63 said:
Disgusted but not surprised, so much for Cameron cutting the state.MaxPB said:
Sadly an inner London council.blackburn63 said:
Please tell me this diversity officer is in the private sector, I hope we're not funding this sort of nonsenseMaxPB said:
A friend of mine had their secret santa at work cancelled by the diversity officer, she was unimpressed and now they have started an unofficial one with exactly the same people in it as last year, including two Muslims, a Buddhist and a Hindu. No one seemed that bothered according to her by the idea of of it being a Christian celebration, most just wanted to give a gift and go out for a drink while doing it.FrancisUrquhart said:
I guess it makes a change from claiming hurt on behalf of others, who actually don't give a s##t e.g the lefty councils who get their knickers in a twist about some Christmas tradition might offend some other faiths...when 99% of those supposed to be offend seem totally bemused by why the council seem to think that might be the case.Cyclefree said:We used to have a Left that liked to think it talked about issues (or "ishoos" as the late Tony Benn would have it). Now we have a Left that it is obsessed with its own feelings, particularly its hurt feelings.
Politics as a branch of psychotherapy. Who would ever have thought that this was what a genuine Left-wing alternative meant.
In fact a Muslim friend of mine is most upset today over a Christmas tradition....her animatronic Santa has stopped working. She is way more into Christmas than me.
0 -
After the pretty dire performances two leaders, backbenchers appear to be raising the game - Sir Hunky Dunky much better than either......0
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Typical response to a situation from tory lackies. I'd love to see the world through your eyes it would save forming an opinion of my own.flightpath01 said:
He wants any feeble excuse to be anti Cameron.TGOHF said:
You want government veto of all council appointments ?blackburn63 said:
Disgusted but not surprised, so much for Cameron cutting the state.MaxPB said:
Sadly an inner London council.blackburn63 said:
Please tell me this diversity officer is in the private sector, I hope we're not funding this sort of nonsenseMaxPB said:
A friend of mine had their secret santa at work cancelled by the diversity officer, she was unimpressed and now they have started an unofficial one with exactly the same people in it as last year, including two Muslims, a Buddhist and a Hindu. No one seemed that bothered according to her by the idea of of it being a Christian celebration, most just wanted to give a gift and go out for a drink while doing it.FrancisUrquhart said:
I guess it makes a change from claiming hurt on behalf of others, who actually don't give a s##t e.g the lefty councils who get their knickers in a twist about some Christmas tradition might offend some other faiths...when 99% of those supposed to be offend seem totally bemused by why the council seem to think that might be the case.Cyclefree said:We used to have a Left that liked to think it talked about issues (or "ishoos" as the late Tony Benn would have it). Now we have a Left that it is obsessed with its own feelings, particularly its hurt feelings.
Politics as a branch of psychotherapy. Who would ever have thought that this was what a genuine Left-wing alternative meant.
In fact a Muslim friend of mine is most upset today over a Christmas tradition....her animatronic Santa has stopped working. She is way more into Christmas than me.
0 -
Is he perhaps sympathetic?oxfordsimon said:Corbyn had absolutely nothing to say about defeating terrorists.
I wonder why not0 -
Quite amazing really. You insult someone with a single word and you can be up in front of the beak. Threaten intimidation or violence and you get a taxpayers funded police escortwatford30 said:
It's Terrorism.Cyclefree said:
Blocking roads and harassing neighbours who are as inconvenienced as the MPs if there are noisy crowds outsider their home can amount to offences. The police should take action to stop such offences happening.Plato_Says said:FFS
Harry Cole
Mark Serwotka said of targeting MPs homes: "We would like to see more of this kind of community campaigning, linking up with unions"
'the use of violence and threats to intimidate or coerce, especially for political purposes.'0 -
It'd have to be both the Kurds and the Turks, because the Kurdish areas of Syria are in the east, not the west. Besides that, some Kurds have also allegedly been buying ISIS oil and selling it on to dealers in other countries, including Israel and surprisingly Turkey. So although Turkey distrusts the Kurds, they're happy to fund it by buying its oil!FrancisUrquhart said:
No actually. What needs to happen is the Kurds seal off the Turkish border. The Americans have killed 20,000+, but the foreign fighters and supplies keep coming and we know ISIL are also selling oil.SeanT said:
What do you want? Area bombing? Firestorms in raqqa?FrancisUrquhart said:
It was always going to be like this. Selective bombing to degrade Isis leadership and infrastructure. As in Iraq. Which is why this debate is absurd - I watched the increasingly twattish Matthew Paris, on newsnight yesterday, as he chuntered on about bombs "raining down on Syria" and I decided he is either gaga, or lying.
The only people able to help the Kurds with air strikes are the US and the British. From an expert on the radio yesterday, they said with comms etc when it comes to calling in this stuff, they are the only really the two NATO nations that can work together safely in these conditions.
The Kurds need to be able to call in these strikes as and when. We don't want a situation where they get a response sorry all our operatives are busy please call back later, like some Taxi firm on a Saturday night.
In fact, the PKK have long made money from illegal trade between the countries, in the same way the IRA made money from smuggling tobacco and diesel between Ireland and the north.
Also, Assad has allegedly been buying ISIS oil.
As ever, money makes for strange bedfellow.
http://www.oilandgas360.com/kurdistan-region-reasserting-right-to-sell-oil-independent-of-iraq/
The trade in oil will only be stopped by either capturing or destroying refineries, transport mechanism and pipelines (*), or by tackling the smugglers. And they are not necessarily within the control of the relevant governments.
(*) Some hesitate about this due to the ecological damage, of all things.0 -
No.Scott_P said:
Is he perhaps sympathetic?oxfordsimon said:Corbyn had absolutely nothing to say about defeating terrorists.
I wonder why not
Supportive.0 -
The Typhoon aeronautics described below are fine and dandy in a contested airspace. When there is air superiority then a purpose built ground attack aircraft like the A10 Warthog is the bees knees. Slower, but better armoured and extremely capable against ground targets.MaxPB said:Also, can someone explain to me why we have 150 or so very expensive Typhoon aircraft and yet we are deploying older Tornados to the theatre? Is the Typhoon not suited to the bombing campaign, I seem to remember it being used in Libya and it is a multi-role jet.
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@DPJHodges: Former shadow cabinet member responds to Corbyn's speech. "The guy is just s**t".0
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No they simply don't. Local government raises a large portion of its funding directly and if it chooses to waste it then there is little Central government can do.blackburn63 said:Govt controls local govt budgets of course its his fault.
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Good speech imo from Alan Duncan0
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Indeed. Surely air strikes needs to be the first step, if the ground forces who are there are unable to retake ISIS held areas then we can put together a coalition for a ground invasion. Blocking military action now would be letting ISIS off the hook.JohnLilburne said:
I can't see how voting against air strikes now would help there to be a more coordinated attack in the future.MaxPB said:
Isn't that the Ken Livingstone position? I don't disagree with it, but I don't see this country deploying ground forces for the foreseeable future, if there is a major terrorist attack by ISIS in the UK then I could see it, but as of now there doesn't seem to be much appetite among NATO to deploy troops to Syria and fight alongside the Russia/Iran/Assad alliance.Richard_Tyndall said:
Nope. It is against air strikes alone. Farage made clear a few days ago that UKIP are not opposed to intervention nor air strikes per se but they have to be as part of a coordinated effort in support of ground forces. His term was a 'grand coalition' including ground forces.MaxPB said:
Well that's another party split then, I think UKIP policy is against air strikes or any kind of intervention.edmundintokyo said:
Still undecided, per his tweets, but affecting to be more convinced by the PM.Richard_Nabavi said:Has Douglas Carswell said how he will vote? He voted in favour of action in Syria in 2013 IIRC.
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Matron's late back from the shops with MikeK's favourite Complan Chicken Soup, and he's gone all moody.Plato_Says said:Urgh. Jamrags, really?
MikeK said:
What is your weapon @watford, jamrags at dawn? Get stuffed!watford30 said:
Yes you are, and I'm more than happy to call you out for it.MikeK said:
I'm not belittling and insulting and insulting any of our RAF brothers, only those that send brave flyers into battle in obsolescent aircraft; no matter how well maintained. What a twat you are @watford30.watford30 said:
Tornados remain a potent weapon of war, maintained, armed and operated to the highest standards by the RAF.MikeK said:
So an underfunded airforce sends outmoded and obsolescent aircraft into battle. Should as little as 4 planes get shot down, the RAF is crippled.HurstLlama said:
The numbers given are the total numbers that will be available, assuming the eight Tornados currently in place continue. So a total crewed combat air force of 14 GR4 Tornados and a pair of Typhoons. Probably four to six planes flying each day.MikeK said:
What is the number of British planes available for Syria? The above numbers look pretty pathetic to me.MarkHopkins said:
Since we name our planes after weather, perhaps we can have some Misty Fogs and Light Rains available too.FrancisUrquhart said:
Two additional thoughts:
The Germans have volunteered to provide some of their Tornados but only for reconnaissance duties, no combat. That ought to take some of the existing load off of the RAF element and free up more sorties for dropping stuff.
The RAF Tornados now flying should have been retired from service by now, they have had their service life extended twice. In the 2010 strategic defence review Cameron and his sidekick said we would not need them.
Why do you insist on belittling and insulting those who fly and prepare these aircraft to carry out missions in hostile airspace?0 -
Yes - lets hope the others that follow are as good - the HoC may yet rise to the occasion....Wanderer said:Good speech imo from Alan Duncan
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Unusual. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/middleeast/syria/12028313/syria-airstrikes-vote-live.html#update-20151202-1227
Britain’s most senior Roman Catholic cleric, Cardinal Vincent Nichols, has signalled support for air strikes against the so-called Islamic State as long as they are part of a wider strategy to create safe spaces. The Cardinal, who is leader of the Catholic Church in England and Wales, visited refugee camps in the region earlier this year where he met Christian and Muslim refugees.
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The Raptor pod has not yet been integrated into the Typhoon's weapons because it is too large. Apparently.MaxPB said:Also, can someone explain to me why we have 150 or so very expensive Typhoon aircraft and yet we are deploying older Tornados to the theatre? Is the Typhoon not suited to the bombing campaign, I seem to remember it being used in Libya and it is a multi-role jet.
0 -
Yes but it still has not been qualified to use all the weapons that Ops like Syria and Iraq need, hence we are still using the Tonkas. Whether it ever will be I don't know. It is a stunning bit of kit but it was not designed as a mud mover and giving it a new in role mid-life may not be the best thing to do.flightpath01 said:
Typhoons have ground attack capability now as well.MarqueeMark said:
The Typhoon does an annual display at the Dartmouth Regatta. The element of the display where it does its extremely slow fly pasts and then the way it stands on its tail and disappears from view in moments is a high point. Helluva piece of kit.Richard_Tyndall said:As an aside the Typhoons were practicing air to air combat over the Lincoln Edge today. Actually quite strange to see how close they got to each other given that the main strategy seems to be stand off and use missiles. Also interesting to see how quickly they can turn and appear to stand still at times.
However, as always it comes down to what the Treasury says, even if that works out more expensive in the end.0 -
I don't believe that is true now. I believe the past 2-3 months the Kurds have taken quite a lot of the border area now. They have pockets in the west (remember Kobane) and centre of the border, as well as their strong hold in the East. It hasn't been that well reported just how much progress the Kurds have made.JosiasJessop said:
It'd have to be both the Kurds and the Turks, because the Kurdish areas of Syria are in the east, not the west.FrancisUrquhart said:
No actually. What needs to happen is the Kurds seal off the Turkish border. The Americans have killed 20,000+, but the foreign fighters and supplies keep coming and we know ISIL are also selling oil.SeanT said:
What do you want? Area bombing? Firestorms in raqqa?FrancisUrquhart said:
It was always going to be like this. Selective bombing to degrade Isis leadership and infrastructure. As in Iraq. Which is why this debate is absurd - I watched the increasingly twattish Matthew Paris, on newsnight yesterday, as he chuntered on about bombs "raining down on Syria" and I decided he is either gaga, or lying.
The only people able to help the Kurds with air strikes are the US and the British. From an expert on the radio yesterday, they said with comms etc when it comes to calling in this stuff, they are the only really the two NATO nations that can work together safely in these conditions.
The Kurds need to be able to call in these strikes as and when. We don't want a situation where they get a response sorry all our operatives are busy please call back later, like some Taxi firm on a Saturday night.
Edit:...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Syrian_Civil_War#/media/File:Syrian_civil_war.png
As for the Kurds not being trustworthy etc. As stated in a previous post about the "moderates", no, even within the Kurds they hate one another. It is a total mess.0 -
Amazes me how the tories on here go out of their way to justify things. Its like those ridiculous PCCs, money that should be spent on coppers - guess who introduced them?Philip_Thompson said:
No they simply don't. Local government raises a large portion of its funding directly and if it chooses to waste it then there is little Central government can do.blackburn63 said:Govt controls local govt budgets of course its his fault.
B b b b b ut
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The point is that now we have some direct democratic oversight through the PCCs. If you don't like the direction your local force is taking, you have the right to vote in someone who will do a better job.blackburn63 said:
Amazes me how the tories on here go out of their way to justify things. Its like those ridiculous PCCs, money that should be spent on coppers - guess who introduced them?Philip_Thompson said:
No they simply don't. Local government raises a large portion of its funding directly and if it chooses to waste it then there is little Central government can do.blackburn63 said:Govt controls local govt budgets of course its his fault.
B b b b b ut0 -
I'd forgotten that western pocket! Thanks.FrancisUrquhart said:
I don't believe that is true now. I believe the past 2-3 months the Kurds have taken quite a lot of the border area now. They have pockets in the west (remember Kobane) and centre of the border, as well as their strong hold in the East.JosiasJessop said:
It'd have to be both the Kurds and the Turks, because the Kurdish areas of Syria are in the east, not the west.FrancisUrquhart said:
No actually. What needs to happen is the Kurds seal off the Turkish border. The Americans have killed 20,000+, but the foreign fighters and supplies keep coming and we know ISIL are also selling oil.SeanT said:
What do you want? Area bombing? Firestorms in raqqa?FrancisUrquhart said:
It was always going to be like this. Selective bombing to degrade Isis leadership and infrastructure. As in Iraq. Which is why this debate is absurd - I watched the increasingly twattish Matthew Paris, on newsnight yesterday, as he chuntered on about bombs "raining down on Syria" and I decided he is either gaga, or lying.
The only people able to help the Kurds with air strikes are the US and the British. From an expert on the radio yesterday, they said with comms etc when it comes to calling in this stuff, they are the only really the two NATO nations that can work together safely in these conditions.
The Kurds need to be able to call in these strikes as and when. We don't want a situation where they get a response sorry all our operatives are busy please call back later, like some Taxi firm on a Saturday night.
Edit:...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Syrian_Civil_War#/media/File:Syrian_civil_war.png
But the substantive point remains: they're not in control of all the Syrian-Turkey border. They are in control of all the Iraqi-Turkey border though.0 -
Justify things like not cutting local government funding to zero? This is a local government issue and you are being both deceitful (or ignorant) on funding and wrong on who is responsible.blackburn63 said:
Amazes me how the tories on here go out of their way to justify things. Its like those ridiculous PCCs, money that should be spent on coppers - guess who introduced them?Philip_Thompson said:
No they simply don't. Local government raises a large portion of its funding directly and if it chooses to waste it then there is little Central government can do.blackburn63 said:Govt controls local govt budgets of course its his fault.
B b b b b ut
As for changing the issue once proven wrong I support the PCCs unlike what we were talking about.0 -
No. But that I believe is what the US want to enable the Kurds to do, backed by the ability to call in airstrikes whenever they are required. Link up that remaining portion and cut off ISIL supply route. As at the moment it is just way too easy to resupply with new recruits.JosiasJessop said:
I'd forgotten that western pocket! Thanks.FrancisUrquhart said:
I don't believe that is true now. I believe the past 2-3 months the Kurds have taken quite a lot of the border area now. They have pockets in the west (remember Kobane) and centre of the border, as well as their strong hold in the East.JosiasJessop said:
It'd have to be both the Kurds and the Turks, because the Kurdish areas of Syria are in the east, not the west.FrancisUrquhart said:
No actually. What needs to happen is the Kurds seal off the Turkish border. The Americans have killed 20,000+, but the foreign fighters and supplies keep coming and we know ISIL are also selling oil.SeanT said:
What do you want? Area bombing? Firestorms in raqqa?FrancisUrquhart said:
It was always going to be like this. Selective bombing to degrade Isis leadership and infrastructure. As in Iraq. Which is why this debate is absurd - I watched the increasingly twattish Matthew Paris, on newsnight yesterday, as he chuntered on about bombs "raining down on Syria" and I decided he is either gaga, or lying.
The only people able to help the Kurds with air strikes are the US and the British. From an expert on the radio yesterday, they said with comms etc when it comes to calling in this stuff, they are the only really the two NATO nations that can work together safely in these conditions.
The Kurds need to be able to call in these strikes as and when. We don't want a situation where they get a response sorry all our operatives are busy please call back later, like some Taxi firm on a Saturday night.
Edit:...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Syrian_Civil_War#/media/File:Syrian_civil_war.png
But the substantive point remains: they're not in control of all the Syrian-Turkey border. They are in control of all the Iraqi-Turkey border though.
The Kurds have (mostly unreported) over the past few months gained a fair amount of territory from ISIL.
If ultimately it will work to cut off ISIL, if the Kurds won't do dodgy deals etc, is another matter.0 -
I don't want to vote for anybody, I want the money spent on policemen. The % turnout is so pitifully low you have to assume that virtually nobody cares.oxfordsimon said:
The point is that now we have some direct democratic oversight through the PCCs. If you don't like the direction your local force is taking, you have the right to vote in someone who will do a better job.blackburn63 said:
Amazes me how the tories on here go out of their way to justify things. Its like those ridiculous PCCs, money that should be spent on coppers - guess who introduced them?Philip_Thompson said:
No they simply don't. Local government raises a large portion of its funding directly and if it chooses to waste it then there is little Central government can do.blackburn63 said:Govt controls local govt budgets of course its his fault.
B b b b b ut
0 -
There is clearly something deeply personal going on with Stella Creasy and the Left of the party.dr_spyn said:0 -
The problem is certain people aren't happy if they're not complaining.oxfordsimon said:
The point is that now we have some direct democratic oversight through the PCCs. If you don't like the direction your local force is taking, you have the right to vote in someone who will do a better job.blackburn63 said:
Amazes me how the tories on here go out of their way to justify things. Its like those ridiculous PCCs, money that should be spent on coppers - guess who introduced them?Philip_Thompson said:
No they simply don't. Local government raises a large portion of its funding directly and if it chooses to waste it then there is little Central government can do.blackburn63 said:Govt controls local govt budgets of course its his fault.
B b b b b ut
Have no oversight over the Police and they're not happy. Given oversight over the Police and not happy. Something not even remotely related to the government - not happy. The issue doesn't matter.0 -
Tornado GR4 is mainly set up for ground attack, and Typhoon for air defence.MaxPB said:Also, can someone explain to me why we have 150 or so very expensive Typhoon aircraft and yet we are deploying older Tornados to the theatre? Is the Typhoon not suited to the bombing campaign, I seem to remember it being used in Libya and it is a multi-role jet.
0 -
Re PCCs have a look at this:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-20374139
Turnout was so low a "watchdog" is investigating. More money wasted as police funding is cut.
Come on tories, can you defend this?0 -
Brimstone has yet to be integrated with the Typhoon as well. A contract to do this was let earlier this year but I think it's going to be at least another couple of years before it enters service.JosiasJessop said:
The Raptor pod has not yet been integrated into the Typhoon's weapons because it is too large. Apparently.MaxPB said:Also, can someone explain to me why we have 150 or so very expensive Typhoon aircraft and yet we are deploying older Tornados to the theatre? Is the Typhoon not suited to the bombing campaign, I seem to remember it being used in Libya and it is a multi-role jet.
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Your last sentence is the issue. It depends on how much we pay the Kurds to stop the traffic (which will not be their first priority), and how deeply embedded the smugglers are within the YPG, PKK and the Kurdistan Regional Government in Iraq.FrancisUrquhart said:
No. But that I believe is what the US want to enable the Kurds to do, backed by the ability to call in airstrikes whenever they are required. Link up that remaining portion and cut off ISIL supply route. As at the moment it is just way too easy to resupply with new recruits.JosiasJessop said:
I'd forgotten that western pocket! Thanks.FrancisUrquhart said:
I don't believe that is true now. I believe the past 2-3 months the Kurds have taken quite a lot of the border area now. They have pockets in the west (remember Kobane) and centre of the border, as well as their strong hold in the East.JosiasJessop said:
It'd have to be both the Kurds and the Turks, because the Kurdish areas of Syria are in the east, not the west.FrancisUrquhart said:
No actually. What needs to happen is the Kurds seal off the Turkish border. The Americans have killed 20,000+, but the foreign fighters and supplies keep coming and we know ISIL are also selling oil.SeanT said:
What do you want? Area bombing? Firestorms in raqqa?FrancisUrquhart said:
It was always going to be like this. Selective bombing to degrade Isis leadership and infrastructure. As in Iraq. Which is why this debate is absurd - I watched the increasingly twattish Matthew Paris, on newsnight yesterday, as he chuntered on about bombs "raining down on Syria" and I decided he is either gaga, or lying.
The only people able to help the Kurds with air strikes are the US and the British. From an expert on the radio yesterday, they said with comms etc when it comes to calling in this stuff, they are the only really the two NATO nations that can work together safely in these conditions.
The Kurds need to be able to call in these strikes as and when. We don't want a situation where they get a response sorry all our operatives are busy please call back later, like some Taxi firm on a Saturday night.
Edit:...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Syrian_Civil_War#/media/File:Syrian_civil_war.png
But the substantive point remains: they're not in control of all the Syrian-Turkey border. They are in control of all the Iraqi-Turkey border though.
If it will work, if the Kurds won't do dodgy deals etc, is another matter.0 -
So John Woodcock is the star so far of this debate it seems to me.0
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I couldn't care less about turnout. I cared so I voted, if people who don't care don't vote then so what? Let the people who care vote - over 5 million chose to vote so that's not nobody in my eyes.blackburn63 said:
I don't want to vote for anybody, I want the money spent on policemen. The % turnout is so pitifully low you have to assume that virtually nobody cares.oxfordsimon said:
The point is that now we have some direct democratic oversight through the PCCs. If you don't like the direction your local force is taking, you have the right to vote in someone who will do a better job.blackburn63 said:
Amazes me how the tories on here go out of their way to justify things. Its like those ridiculous PCCs, money that should be spent on coppers - guess who introduced them?Philip_Thompson said:
No they simply don't. Local government raises a large portion of its funding directly and if it chooses to waste it then there is little Central government can do.blackburn63 said:Govt controls local govt budgets of course its his fault.
B b b b b ut
There will always be people in charge of the Police, always have been, so the suggestion the money should be spent on cops instead is a false dichotomy.0 -
What stops the government passing an act of primary legislation restricting what local councils can spend their money on, these restrictions clearly exist to some extent now, local councils cant employ their own private armies or police forces, why not extend the list into areas of waste and PC idiocy ?Philip_Thompson said:
No they simply don't. Local government raises a large portion of its funding directly and if it chooses to waste it then there is little Central government can do.blackburn63 said:Govt controls local govt budgets of course its his fault.
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She is really out to the left as well so I don't understand the animosity. Maybe they see her as a potential rival to Corbyn.Casino_Royale said:
There is clearly something deeply personal going on with Stella Creasy and the Left of the party.dr_spyn said:0 -
The belief in local democracy?Indigo said:
What stops the government passing an act of primary legislation restricting what local councils can spend their money on, these restrictions clearly exist to some extent now, local councils cant employ their own private armies or police forces, what not extend the list into areas of waste and PC idiocy ?Philip_Thompson said:
No they simply don't. Local government raises a large portion of its funding directly and if it chooses to waste it then there is little Central government can do.blackburn63 said:Govt controls local govt budgets of course its his fault.
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"So while Corbyn’s leadership ratings have collapsed (see last post) his position on what is the key issue of the day is getting more support."
Not necessarily true Mike. Support for airstrikes is falling, yes. There are multiple positions which would lead one to decide against, and only one of those equates to Corbyn's position.0 -
So let them employ their own police forces and armies then ?Philip_Thompson said:
The belief in local democracy?Indigo said:
What stops the government passing an act of primary legislation restricting what local councils can spend their money on, these restrictions clearly exist to some extent now, local councils cant employ their own private armies or police forces, what not extend the list into areas of waste and PC idiocy ?Philip_Thompson said:
No they simply don't. Local government raises a large portion of its funding directly and if it chooses to waste it then there is little Central government can do.blackburn63 said:Govt controls local govt budgets of course its his fault.
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Utter nonsense, did you read the link? Turnout is pathetic, few people care, money is wasted, police funding is cut, it says everything about modern tories that they defend this sort of thing. In a minute you'll be telling us the importance of cutting the deficit.Philip_Thompson said:
I couldn't care less about turnout. I cared so I voted, if people who don't care don't vote then so what? Let the people who care vote - over 5 million chose to vote so that's not nobody in my eyes.blackburn63 said:
I don't want to vote for anybody, I want the money spent on policemen. The % turnout is so pitifully low you have to assume that virtually nobody cares.oxfordsimon said:
The point is that now we have some direct democratic oversight through the PCCs. If you don't like the direction your local force is taking, you have the right to vote in someone who will do a better job.blackburn63 said:
Amazes me how the tories on here go out of their way to justify things. Its like those ridiculous PCCs, money that should be spent on coppers - guess who introduced them?Philip_Thompson said:
No they simply don't. Local government raises a large portion of its funding directly and if it chooses to waste it then there is little Central government can do.blackburn63 said:Govt controls local govt budgets of course its his fault.
B b b b b ut
There will always be people in charge of the Police, always have been, so the suggestion the money should be spent on cops instead is a false dichotomy.
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Not sure why the Kurds would be buying oil from IS when they are having problems with selling enough of the stuff they are producing themselves. The Kurds are having to suspend production because they can't transport or sell the oil they produce from their own very extensive oil fields. And shutting down and restarting production is a hugely costly and potentially very damaging operation.JosiasJessop said:
It'd have to be both the Kurds and the Turks, because the Kurdish areas of Syria are in the east, not the west. Besides that, some Kurds have also allegedly been buying ISIS oil and selling it on to dealers in other countries, including Israel and surprisingly Turkey. So although Turkey distrusts the Kurds, they're happy to fund it by buying its oil!FrancisUrquhart said:
No actually. What needs to happen is the Kurds seal off the Turkish border. The Americans have killed 20,000+, but the foreign fighters and supplies keep coming and we know ISIL are also selling oil.SeanT said:
What do you want? Area bombing? Firestorms in raqqa?FrancisUrquhart said:
It was always going to be like this. Selective bombing to degrade Isis leadership and infrastructure. As in Iraq. Which is why this debate is absurd - I watched the increasingly twattish Matthew Paris, on newsnight yesterday, as he chuntered on about bombs "raining down on Syria" and I decided he is either gaga, or lying.
The only people able to help the Kurds with air strikes are the US and the British. From an expert on the radio yesterday, they said with comms etc when it comes to calling in this stuff, they are the only really the two NATO nations that can work together safely in these conditions.
The Kurds need to be able to call in these strikes as and when. We don't want a situation where they get a response sorry all our operatives are busy please call back later, like some Taxi firm on a Saturday night.
In fact, the PKK have long made money from illegal trade between the countries, in the same way the IRA made money from smuggling tobacco and diesel between Ireland and the north.
Also, Assad has allegedly been buying ISIS oil.
As ever, money makes for strange bedfellow.
http://www.oilandgas360.com/kurdistan-region-reasserting-right-to-sell-oil-independent-of-iraq/
The trade in oil will only be stopped by either capturing or destroying refineries, transport mechanism and pipelines (*), or by tackling the smugglers. And they are not necessarily within the control of the relevant governments.
(*) Some hesitate about this due to the ecological damage, of all things.
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Well said sir, but remember its only loony left councils that waste money.Indigo said:
What stops the government passing an act of primary legislation restricting what local councils can spend their money on, these restrictions clearly exist to some extent now, local councils cant employ their own private armies or police forces, why not extend the list into areas of waste and PC idiocy ?Philip_Thompson said:
No they simply don't. Local government raises a large portion of its funding directly and if it chooses to waste it then there is little Central government can do.blackburn63 said:Govt controls local govt budgets of course its his fault.
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She is not well liked in the CLP by any part of the party - its not just the 3 quidders she's alienated most people. This has encouraged the ousters and according to NS there is some specific politics involving local councillors who have their eye on the seat.MaxPB said:
She is really out to the left as well so I don't understand the animosity. Maybe they see her as a potential rival to Corbyn.Casino_Royale said:
There is clearly something deeply personal going on with Stella Creasy and the Left of the party.dr_spyn said:
Obviously not helped by the wider atmosphere in the Party and Jeremy (Kinder, Gentler, We don't do personalities, he shares his sandwiches) Corbyn's not so veiled threats yesterday and encouragement of Momentum by those around him.
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Cutting the deficit is an optional extra, did't you get the memo, the Osborne Blue Team winning is what matters even if to do so it has to become identical in many respects to the Red Team under Blair, including on current evidence, the same level of acquaintance with telling the truth to the voters.blackburn63 said:
Utter nonsense, did you read the link? Turnout is pathetic, few people care, money is wasted, police funding is cut, it says everything about modern tories that they defend this sort of thing. In a minute you'll be telling us the importance of cutting the deficit.Philip_Thompson said:
I couldn't care less about turnout. I cared so I voted, if people who don't care don't vote then so what? Let the people who care vote - over 5 million chose to vote so that's not nobody in my eyes.blackburn63 said:
I don't want to vote for anybody, I want the money spent on policemen. The % turnout is so pitifully low you have to assume that virtually nobody cares.oxfordsimon said:
The point is that now we have some direct democratic oversight through the PCCs. If you don't like the direction your local force is taking, you have the right to vote in someone who will do a better job.blackburn63 said:
Amazes me how the tories on here go out of their way to justify things. Its like those ridiculous PCCs, money that should be spent on coppers - guess who introduced them?Philip_Thompson said:
No they simply don't. Local government raises a large portion of its funding directly and if it chooses to waste it then there is little Central government can do.blackburn63 said:Govt controls local govt budgets of course its his fault.
B b b b b ut
There will always be people in charge of the Police, always have been, so the suggestion the money should be spent on cops instead is a false dichotomy.0
This discussion has been closed.