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Indeed. Some of the stories coming out of Mexico are hideous; ISIS-style behaviour.Pulpstar said:
The mexican drug war is the deadliest present conflict outside the current fundamentalist Islam ones.JosiasJessop said:
The US-Mexican border is notoriously porous, and they've mostly given up on building 'the fence' to stop it. God forbid, if there were to be a humanitarian disaster in Mexico then they'd be swamped.Cromwell said:Imagine what would happen if the U S A announced that it would no longer enforce its 2000 mile border with Mexico ?
It would trigger an avalanche of migrants from not only Mexico but from all countries in central and south America ...tens of millions in fact .....this is what is going to happen in Europe !.....this is a collective Darwin Award for a Europe incapable of defending itself
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mexico–United_States_border#Mexico.E2.80.93United_States_barrier
http://theweek.com/articles/466628/what-take-secure-usmexico-border
Turkey's border with Syria is 500 miles, and with Iraq 200. Much of that terrain is mountainous and hard to monitor, and some of it is in Kurdish territory, where the Turkish government is seen with distrust, to say the least.
As an aside, I once saw figures for how many troops would be needed to 'secure' the US-Mexico border. It was greater than the US's standing army as the strength would be required in depth ...
Time for some sums: the US army has 541,000 men, both enlisted and officers (1). The length of the border is 1,933 miles (2). Dividing the former by the latter, then you would have 279 men per mile, or one every six yards. Except there will need to be shifts, so you can triple that, and it assumes that everyone is available and on the front line.
Obviously technology and barriers can help, but it shows in the case of an 'invasion', the US army would be stretched thinly.
"Closing the border" is easy to say, much harder to do.
(1): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Armed_Forces#Personnel_in_each_service
(2): https://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/misc/RS21729.pdf
Yet somehow the Mexican state functions as a whole, even if its hold on some provinces is weak.0 -
@JournoStephen: #Syria debate so far:
Opposition MPs talking about PM's word choice.
Tory MP talking about BBC's word choice.
Cameron talking about Syria.0 -
You wish!watford30 said:
102.MikeK said:
What is the number of British planes available for Syria? The above numbers look pretty pathetic to me.MarkHopkins said:
Since we name our planes after weather, perhaps we can have some Misty Fogs and Light Rains available too.FrancisUrquhart said:0 -
No actually. What needs to happen is the Kurds seal off the Turkish border. The Americans have killed 20,000+, but the foreign fighters and supplies keep coming and we know ISIL are also selling oil.SeanT said:
What do you want? Area bombing? Firestorms in raqqa?FrancisUrquhart said:
It was always going to be like this. Selective bombing to degrade Isis leadership and infrastructure. As in Iraq. Which is why this debate is absurd - I watched the increasingly twattish Matthew Paris, on newsnight yesterday, as he chuntered on about bombs "raining down on Syria" and I decided he is either gaga, or lying.
The only people able to help the Kurds with air strikes are the US and the British. From an expert on the radio yesterday, they said with comms etc when it comes to calling in this stuff, they are the only really the two NATO nations that can work together safely in these conditions.
The Kurds need to be able to call in these strikes as and when. We don't want a situation where they get a response sorry all our operatives are busy please call back later, like some Taxi firm on a Saturday night.0 -
Mr. Jessop, is that because the drugs aspect is about commerce (illegal, but still) whereas Daesh is about ideology? Or simply that Syria has a shitload of different factions?0
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The numbers given are the total numbers that will be available, assuming the eight Tornados currently in place continue. So a total crewed combat air force of 14 GR4 Tornados and a pair of Typhoons. Probably four to six planes flying each day.MikeK said:
What is the number of British planes available for Syria? The above numbers look pretty pathetic to me.MarkHopkins said:
Since we name our planes after weather, perhaps we can have some Misty Fogs and Light Rains available too.FrancisUrquhart said:
Two additional thoughts:
The Germans have volunteered to provide some of their Tornados but only for reconnaissance duties, no combat. That ought to take some of the existing load off of the RAF element and free up more sorties for dropping stuff.
The RAF Tornados now flying should have been retired from service by now, they have had their service life extended twice. In the 2010 strategic defence review Cameron and his sidekick said we would not need them.0 -
As I'm on a book recommending streak, can I recommend a fabulous novel about the Mexican drug cartels. It's called The Day of the Dog, and it's by Don Winslow, and it absorbed an entire flight to Australia. (Excluding the sleeping bits.)Pulpstar said:
The mexican drug war is the deadliest present conflict outside the current fundamentalist Islam ones.JosiasJessop said:
The US-Mexican border is notoriously porous, and they've mostly given up on building 'the fence' to stop it. God forbid, if there were to be a humanitarian disaster in Mexico then they'd be swamped.Cromwell said:Imagine what would happen if the U S A announced that it would no longer enforce its 2000 mile border with Mexico ?
It would trigger an avalanche of migrants from not only Mexico but from all countries in central and south America ...tens of millions in fact .....this is what is going to happen in Europe !.....this is a collective Darwin Award for a Europe incapable of defending itself
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mexico–United_States_border#Mexico.E2.80.93United_States_barrier
http://theweek.com/articles/466628/what-take-secure-usmexico-border
Turkey's border with Syria is 500 miles, and with Iraq 200. Much of that terrain is mountainous and hard to monitor, and some of it is in Kurdish territory, where the Turkish government is seen with distrust, to say the least.
As an aside, I once saw figures for how many troops would be needed to 'secure' the US-Mexico border. It was greater than the US's standing army as the strength would be required in depth ...
Time for some sums: the US army has 541,000 men, both enlisted and officers (1). The length of the border is 1,933 miles (2). Dividing the former by the latter, then you would have 279 men per mile, or one every six yards. Except there will need to be shifts, so you can triple that, and it assumes that everyone is available and on the front line.
Obviously technology and barriers can help, but it shows in the case of an 'invasion', the US army would be stretched thinly.
"Closing the border" is easy to say, much harder to do.
(1): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Armed_Forces#Personnel_in_each_service
(2): https://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/misc/RS21729.pdf0 -
The statement made by Cameron - regardless of whether it was tactically wise - has really hit home because there is a grain of truth in it and because the brighter MPs will realise that it will resonate with some voters and that it risks defining their entire party.Scott_P said:@DPJHodges: Labour MPs have to stop playing games now. Do they care about war and peace or do they care about being called names.
Not very sensible of them to keep repeating the phrase, though. If anyone hadn't heard of it two days ago they will have by now.
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'Plaid Cymru MPs to vote against UK airstrikes in Syria' !0
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Apparently it sounds similar to something horrid in ArabicJohnLilburne said:I'm not sure why calling ISIL Daesh is some sort of improvement. Daesh is simply the Arabic acronym for Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant.
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Let me be frank. I fully support bombing Daesh by British forces; such as they have.
However I've never heard so much bullsh*t out of the mouth of a British PM since Blair.
Oh wait!.................0 -
Morris_Dancer said:
Mr. Cromwell, saw on the Sky ticker that Viktor Orban, PM of Hungary [I think], reckons there's a semi-secret deal for about half a million Syrian to be relocated from Turkey to the EU.
Personally, I'd rather the EU kept £2bn than pay for the privilege of a second exodus.
It's also transparent and alarming that the EU's foreign and economic policies appear to be mere extensions of Germany's.
--------------------------Morris_Dancer said:Mr. Cromwell, saw on the Sky ticker that Viktor Orban, PM of Hungary [I think], reckons there's a semi-secret deal for about half a million Syrian to be relocated from Turkey to the EU.
Personally, I'd rather the EU kept £2bn than pay for the privilege of a second exodus.
It's also transparent and alarming that the EU's foreign and economic policies appear to be mere extensions of Germany's.
Germany , as the strongest country in Europe should be taking the lead ; unfortunately it is being led by a woman who is the opposite of Thatcher insomuch she is a ''soft touch '' incapable of detracting her emotions from the critical thinking process ...naturally , German ''War Guilt'' also plays a part in regards to refugees/migrants
Affluent , feminised , pacifist , decadent Europe is increasingly becoming the Eloi from H G Wells ''Time Machine '' ....young Muslim males , half feral , wolf-like and opportunistic , with a dangerous contempt for their hosts , are the obvious ''Morlocks '' !
''Here come the assassins , stained in the colours of their trade '' !
For those paying attention there is a miniature crime wave in Germany as gangs of young , confident , knife carrying Muslim males intimidate the locals and engage in nefarious activity ... oooh but who'd of thunk it ?0 -
Devils Advocate but is there a harm in letting them go to Syria and then killing them?FrancisUrquhart said:
No actually. What needs to happen is the Kurds seal off the Turkish border. The Americans have killed 20,000+, but the foreign fighters and supplies keep coming and we know ISIL are also selling oil.SeanT said:
What do you want? Area bombing? Firestorms in raqqa?FrancisUrquhart said:
It was always going to be like this. Selective bombing to degrade Isis leadership and infrastructure. As in Iraq. Which is why this debate is absurd - I watched the increasingly twattish Matthew Paris, on newsnight yesterday, as he chuntered on about bombs "raining down on Syria" and I decided he is either gaga, or lying.
The only people able to help the Kurds with air strikes are the US and the British. From an expert on the radio yesterday, they said with comms etc when it comes to calling in this stuff, they are the only really the two NATO nations that can work together safely in these conditions.
The Kurds need to be able to call in these strikes as and when. We don't want a situation where they get a response sorry all our operatives are busy please call back later, like some Taxi firm on a Saturday night.
Better dead in Syria than alive and fighting elsewhere.
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There is more than a grain of truth in it.Cyclefree said:
The statement made by Cameron - regardless of whether it was tactically wise - has really hit home because there is a grain of truth in it and because the brighter MPs will realise that it will resonate with some voters and that it risks defining their entire party.Scott_P said:@DPJHodges: Labour MPs have to stop playing games now. Do they care about war and peace or do they care about being called names.
Not very sensible of them to keep repeating the phrase, though. If anyone hadn't heard of it two days ago they will have by now.
Corbyn and McDonnell are terrorist sympathisers. Their words and actions over the years make that perfectly clear.
They can try to twist and turn - but the truth is clear for all to see.
Until Labour dumps Corbyn, they will be tainted by his past, present and future comments.0 -
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At last! A sensible question from the SNP - Angus Robertson - what proportion of the 70,000 could be described as moderate, what fundamentalist.
Much better than Salmond's 'hurt feelings' grand standings......0 -
Your attitude appears to be bury our heads in the sand (or even submit because fighting might be dangerous).isam said:
I don't think we were safe before, noFloater said:
You think we were safe before?isam said:For people that live or work in or close to London, would you say bombing Syria will make you feel safer in the capital over the next month or so?
Also do you think it's right that our actions or otherwise are dictated by fear?
But the question is "will we be safer or less safe if we bomb Syria"?
It's not about fear, the governments job is to protect it's population, and so if bombing Syria increases the risk of an attack here, even if we were at risk before, then they are not doing their job
Maybe it will make us safer, I am not closed minded about it, but it makes me feel less safe
Sometimes we have to accept less "safety" to do what needs to be done, this is one of these times.
Like others have said a lot needs to be done, both here and abroad but not even taking a step down the road in the right direction of travel is really not an option.0 -
Afternoon all. Catching up after a few days away, do we think there's any value left in UKIP at 100/30 for the by-election? Surely the Tories are also worth a nibble at over 300 on Betfair if it's a cold wet and miserable day with a 25% turnout?0
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Well I have no sympathy for those going and they deserve everything they get, I believe the issue is that while ISIL hold territory that is a safe haven, and they can earn money and resupply at will across the Turkish border, it is basically impossible for the opposing forces on the ground to defeat them.Philip_Thompson said:
Devils Advocate but is there a harm in letting them go to Syria and then killing them?FrancisUrquhart said:
No actually. What needs to happen is the Kurds seal off the Turkish border. The Americans have killed 20,000+, but the foreign fighters and supplies keep coming and we know ISIL are also selling oil.SeanT said:
What do you want? Area bombing? Firestorms in raqqa?FrancisUrquhart said:
It was always going to be like this. Selective bombing to degrade Isis leadership and infrastructure. As in Iraq. Which is why this debate is absurd - I watched the increasingly twattish Matthew Paris, on newsnight yesterday, as he chuntered on about bombs "raining down on Syria" and I decided he is either gaga, or lying.
The only people able to help the Kurds with air strikes are the US and the British. From an expert on the radio yesterday, they said with comms etc when it comes to calling in this stuff, they are the only really the two NATO nations that can work together safely in these conditions.
The Kurds need to be able to call in these strikes as and when. We don't want a situation where they get a response sorry all our operatives are busy please call back later, like some Taxi firm on a Saturday night.
Better dead in Syria than alive and fighting elsewhere.
I believe the American's first approach was along the lines of so what if people join up, they will all just get bogged down in a messy conflict for years on end and better them doing that than causing trouble in the West. However, as we have seen over the past 2 years, that is now not the case. ISIL are planning attacks on the West from Syrian HQ and haven't been really weakened by the loss of 20,000+ men.
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So an underfunded airforce sends outmoded and obsolescent aircraft into battle. Should as little as 4 planes get shot down, the RAF is crippled.HurstLlama said:
The numbers given are the total numbers that will be available, assuming the eight Tornados currently in place continue. So a total crewed combat air force of 14 GR4 Tornados and a pair of Typhoons. Probably four to six planes flying each day.MikeK said:
What is the number of British planes available for Syria? The above numbers look pretty pathetic to me.MarkHopkins said:
Since we name our planes after weather, perhaps we can have some Misty Fogs and Light Rains available too.FrancisUrquhart said:
Two additional thoughts:
The Germans have volunteered to provide some of their Tornados but only for reconnaissance duties, no combat. That ought to take some of the existing load off of the RAF element and free up more sorties for dropping stuff.
The RAF Tornados now flying should have been retired from service by now, they have had their service life extended twice. In the 2010 strategic defence review Cameron and his sidekick said we would not need them.0 -
Not sure how we'll know the exact split of that - are we going to drop a survey into all Al Nusra and FSA areas ?CarlottaVance said:At last! A sensible question from the SNP - Angus Robertson - what proportion of the 70,000 could be described as moderate, what fundamentalist.
Much better than Salmond's 'hurt feelings' grand standings......0 -
Have to think that Cammo and Osbo are experts at playing low politics as a bolt-on to what has to be done anyway. Can't help wondering if calling the debate for the day before the by-election was deliberate. Wonder if the Tories are planning to use the phrase later in response to a particularly egregious contribution by a Corbynista.SeanT said:
Yep. This was clearly the plan. Get the phrase out there by leaking, let Labour froth and rant and turn it into a meme and a THINGMarqueeMark said:Labour seriously rattled by the Prime Ministers's words last night.
Terrorist sympathisers.
It's like Tory MPs continuously saying "pig fucker" in angry tones. What would voters take away from that?0 -
Douglas Carswell MP @DouglasCarswell 24s24 seconds ago
I'm embarrassed by this "it's all about me", the "PM must apologise" BS in the Commons. Deal with the ruddy issue0 -
Farron goes on refugee children. Not the most relevant intervention he could have made.0
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@hansmollman: Take a drink every time someone calls for a "terrorist sympathiser" apology.0
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@patrickwintour: If any MP decides whether to back air strikes on the basis the PM has not apologised for something he said at a private meeting....0
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They have a chance.Sandpit said:Afternoon all. Catching up after a few days away, do we think there's any value left in UKIP at 100/30 for the by-election? Surely the Tories are also worth a nibble at over 300 on Betfair if it's a cold wet and miserable day with a 25% turnout?
A very very slim chance....0 -
Tornados remain a potent weapon of war, maintained, armed and operated to the highest standards by the RAF.MikeK said:
So an underfunded airforce sends outmoded and obsolescent aircraft into battle. Should as little as 4 planes get shot down, the RAF is crippled.HurstLlama said:
The numbers given are the total numbers that will be available, assuming the eight Tornados currently in place continue. So a total crewed combat air force of 14 GR4 Tornados and a pair of Typhoons. Probably four to six planes flying each day.MikeK said:
What is the number of British planes available for Syria? The above numbers look pretty pathetic to me.MarkHopkins said:
Since we name our planes after weather, perhaps we can have some Misty Fogs and Light Rains available too.FrancisUrquhart said:
Two additional thoughts:
The Germans have volunteered to provide some of their Tornados but only for reconnaissance duties, no combat. That ought to take some of the existing load off of the RAF element and free up more sorties for dropping stuff.
The RAF Tornados now flying should have been retired from service by now, they have had their service life extended twice. In the 2010 strategic defence review Cameron and his sidekick said we would not need them.
Why do you insist on belittling and insulting those who fly and prepare these aircraft to carry out missions in hostile airspace?0 -
So often the voice of common sense, tribalism more important than war to some idiots. This place is sometimes an extension of parliament.CarlottaVance said:Douglas Carswell MP @DouglasCarswell 24s24 seconds ago
I'm embarrassed by this "it's all about me", the "PM must apologise" BS in the Commons. Deal with the ruddy issue
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New Jacket for Jezzabel!0
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Presumably Corbyn will now take half a dozen interventions asking him to apologise for actually being a terrorist sympathiser? ;-)0
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I see BBC twisting Cameron's words on the front page of their website.0
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I think that is a little harsh, and the chances of even one plane getting shot down let alone four is quite remote. The Tornados may be old and a bit tired but they are more than capable of fulfilling the type of mission in Iraq/Syria, which is a good thing because we have no others that can.MikeK said:
So an underfunded airforce sends outmoded and obsolescent aircraft into battle. Should as little as 4 planes get shot down, the RAF is crippled.HurstLlama said:
The numbers given are the total numbers that will be available, assuming the eight Tornados currently in place continue. So a total crewed combat air force of 14 GR4 Tornados and a pair of Typhoons. Probably four to six planes flying each day.MikeK said:
What is the number of British planes available for Syria? The above numbers look pretty pathetic to me.MarkHopkins said:
Since we name our planes after weather, perhaps we can have some Misty Fogs and Light Rains available too.FrancisUrquhart said:
Two additional thoughts:
The Germans have volunteered to provide some of their Tornados but only for reconnaissance duties, no combat. That ought to take some of the existing load off of the RAF element and free up more sorties for dropping stuff.
The RAF Tornados now flying should have been retired from service by now, they have had their service life extended twice. In the 2010 strategic defence review Cameron and his sidekick said we would not need them.
The Crabs are underfunded of course but that applies to all three services. The Treasury has never grasped the idea that you fund in peace to a level you might reasonably need for war and of course every conservative administration since WW2 (save Heath's) has cut defence spending.0 -
I have been thinking about the Syria question a great deal for several days, and I am still undecided. If anything, I am tending against the bombing motion. I am disappointed by the ill-chosen words of my leader, the prime minister, about "terrorist sympathisers", and I find it uncomfortable that his failure to apologise is in danger of derailing the whole debate.
This is a very difficult decision and I'm glad that I am not an MP having to make a decision.0 -
Seriously! Corbyn leads with asking for an apology.......0
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And fails to condemn the intimidation of MPs by his own supportersCarlottaVance said:Seriously! Corbyn leads with asking for an apology.......
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Will he apology for his and the shadow chancellors support for terrorist groups?CarlottaVance said:Seriously! Corbyn leads with asking for an apology.......
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@stephenkb: Cameron's comments obviously crass, but FGS, do you really want your comment in Hansard before bombing to be asking for an apology?0
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Corbyn ducks out of supporting strikes in Iraq.
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@MichaelPDeacon: Yes yes, air strikes, Syria, blah blah blah, but let's not overlook the key issue here, which is that some MPs' feelings have been hurt
@dansabbagh: Every time Cameron's 'terrorist sympathiser' remark is repeated, it draws attention to it. No doubt Lynton Crosby has polled it with care0 -
@Tony_McNulty: Oh dear - given chance to unequivocally stand behind the air cover afforded the Kurds by previous votes in House, he declines to do so......0
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Oh dear god, are labour really going to only base this on themselves?0
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Total phucking idiot, what is it with Labour and apologies, if they're not saying sorry for slavery they're demanding someone else is saying sorry for something else.CarlottaVance said:Seriously! Corbyn leads with asking for an apology.......
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I'm not belittling and insulting and insulting any of our RAF brothers, only those that send brave flyers into battle in obsolescent aircraft; no matter how well maintained. What a twat you are @watford30.watford30 said:
Tornados remain a potent weapon of war, maintained, armed and operated to the highest standards by the RAF.MikeK said:
So an underfunded airforce sends outmoded and obsolescent aircraft into battle. Should as little as 4 planes get shot down, the RAF is crippled.HurstLlama said:
The numbers given are the total numbers that will be available, assuming the eight Tornados currently in place continue. So a total crewed combat air force of 14 GR4 Tornados and a pair of Typhoons. Probably four to six planes flying each day.MikeK said:
What is the number of British planes available for Syria? The above numbers look pretty pathetic to me.MarkHopkins said:
Since we name our planes after weather, perhaps we can have some Misty Fogs and Light Rains available too.FrancisUrquhart said:
Two additional thoughts:
The Germans have volunteered to provide some of their Tornados but only for reconnaissance duties, no combat. That ought to take some of the existing load off of the RAF element and free up more sorties for dropping stuff.
The RAF Tornados now flying should have been retired from service by now, they have had their service life extended twice. In the 2010 strategic defence review Cameron and his sidekick said we would not need them.
Why do you insist on belittling and insulting those who fly and prepare these aircraft to carry out missions in hostile airspace?0 -
@alexmassie: Most unfair to say the Labour party is led by "terrorist sympathisers". It is led by terrorist *supporters*. https://t.co/1kfksNxQZ20
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I am sure they didn't need to employ the expensive Team Crosby to work out this kick em in the knackers approach to dealing with Kim Jong Jez and McMao.Scott_P said:@MichaelPDeacon: Yes yes, air strikes, Syria, blah blah blah, but let's not overlook the key issue here, which is that some MPs' feelings have been hurt
@dansabbagh: Every time Cameron's 'terrorist sympathiser' remark is repeated, it draws attention to it. No doubt Lynton Crosby has polled it with care0 -
Crispin Blunt stuffing Corbyn there utterly.0
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We used to have a Left that liked to think it talked about issues (or "ishoos" as the late Tony Benn would have it). Now we have a Left that it is obsessed with its own feelings, particularly its hurt feelings.
Politics as a branch of psychotherapy. Who would ever have thought that this was what a genuine Left-wing alternative meant.0 -
@paulwaugh: Corbyn not backing down on warnings that MPs will have to face their constituents after this vote.0
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Do any Syrians or the Daesh have anything capable of shooting down a Tornado? The only plane shot down in the last few months that I'm aware of was an old Ruski bomber that thought the Turkish wouldn't call their bluff.MikeK said:
So an underfunded airforce sends outmoded and obsolescent aircraft into battle. Should as little as 4 planes get shot down, the RAF is crippled.HurstLlama said:
The numbers given are the total numbers that will be available, assuming the eight Tornados currently in place continue. So a total crewed combat air force of 14 GR4 Tornados and a pair of Typhoons. Probably four to six planes flying each day.MikeK said:
What is the number of British planes available for Syria? The above numbers look pretty pathetic to me.MarkHopkins said:
Since we name our planes after weather, perhaps we can have some Misty Fogs and Light Rains available too.FrancisUrquhart said:
Two additional thoughts:
The Germans have volunteered to provide some of their Tornados but only for reconnaissance duties, no combat. That ought to take some of the existing load off of the RAF element and free up more sorties for dropping stuff.
The RAF Tornados now flying should have been retired from service by now, they have had their service life extended twice. In the 2010 strategic defence review Cameron and his sidekick said we would not need them.
I'm sure the RAF have sufficient kit to keep a few Tonkas in the air, this war will about taking a small number of strategic targets rather than something of the scale of Iraq.0 -
Corbyn sounds like he's shouting at you and about to have a breakdown. Not a good look.0
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Corbyn utterly shameless in gaming the FOC.0
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We have enough people on the ground to get a rough split. I also highly doubt that there are anything like 70,000 troops on the ground who are interested in defeating ISIS. If you include the regime forces, Hezbollah and the Iranian ground forces then it is possible, but I'm not sure the PM has said we are going to ally ourselves with them so they won't be in that figure.Pulpstar said:
Not sure how we'll know the exact split of that - are we going to drop a survey into all Al Nusra and FSA areas ?CarlottaVance said:At last! A sensible question from the SNP - Angus Robertson - what proportion of the 70,000 could be described as moderate, what fundamentalist.
Much better than Salmond's 'hurt feelings' grand standings......0 -
It's all about control. Get Cameron to apologise, and they have controlled him and affected what he can say about them in future.blackburn63 said:
Total phucking idiot, what is it with Labour and apologies, if they're not saying sorry for slavery they're demanding someone else is saying sorry for something else.CarlottaVance said:Seriously! Corbyn leads with asking for an apology.......
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@DPJHodges: Seumas Milne just address the House of Commons there.0
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Yup, classic leftist thinking, censor speech and freedom by acting outraged.MarkHopkins said:
It's all about control. Get Cameron to apologise, and they have controlled him and affected what he can say about them in future.blackburn63 said:
Total phucking idiot, what is it with Labour and apologies, if they're not saying sorry for slavery they're demanding someone else is saying sorry for something else.CarlottaVance said:Seriously! Corbyn leads with asking for an apology.......
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Labour have gone out of their tiny minds if they think that advertising at length that David Cameron referred to their leaders as terrorist sympathisers is a good idea.0
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Their actions have ensure tomorrows papers will be filled with examples of the gruesome twosome and their IRA antics.MarkHopkins said:
It's all about control. Get Cameron to apologise, and they have controlled him and affected what he can say about them in future.blackburn63 said:
Total phucking idiot, what is it with Labour and apologies, if they're not saying sorry for slavery they're demanding someone else is saying sorry for something else.CarlottaVance said:Seriously! Corbyn leads with asking for an apology.......
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Excellent plan. Send in Yougov, that will sort things out.Pulpstar said:
Not sure how we'll know the exact split of that - are we going to drop a survey into all Al Nusra and FSA areas ?CarlottaVance said:At last! A sensible question from the SNP - Angus Robertson - what proportion of the 70,000 could be described as moderate, what fundamentalist.
Much better than Salmond's 'hurt feelings' grand standings......0 -
This is the new politics in truth.Plato_Says said:FFS
Harry Cole
Mark Serwotka said of targeting MPs homes: "We would like to see more of this kind of community campaigning, linking up with unions"
Ugly and going to get brutal0 -
Wow, the look on Benn's face behind Corbyn is a picture.0
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MikeK is talking utter ignorant garbage as per usual.Sandpit said:
Do any Syrians or the Daesh have anything capable of shooting down a Tornado? The only plane shot down in the last few months that I'm aware of was an old Ruski bomber that thought the Turkish wouldn't call their bluff.MikeK said:
So an underfunded airforce sends outmoded and obsolescent aircraft into battle. Should as little as 4 planes get shot down, the RAF is crippled.HurstLlama said:
The numbers given are the total numbers that will be available, assuming the eight Tornados currently in place continue. So a total crewed combat air force of 14 GR4 Tornados and a pair of Typhoons. Probably four to six planes flying each day.MikeK said:
What is the number of British planes available for Syria? The above numbers look pretty pathetic to me.MarkHopkins said:
Since we name our planes after weather, perhaps we can have some Misty Fogs and Light Rains available too.FrancisUrquhart said:
Two additional thoughts:
The Germans have volunteered to provide some of their Tornados but only for reconnaissance duties, no combat. That ought to take some of the existing load off of the RAF element and free up more sorties for dropping stuff.
The RAF Tornados now flying should have been retired from service by now, they have had their service life extended twice. In the 2010 strategic defence review Cameron and his sidekick said we would not need them.
I'm sure the RAF have sufficient kit to keep a few Tonkas in the air, this war will about taking a small number of strategic targets rather than something of the scale of Iraq.0 -
@bbclaurak: Tom Watson looks like he'd rather be anywhere else - him and Benn look like reluctant bouncers0
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Labour went mad over the summer and will take years to recoverAlastairMeeks said:Labour have gone out of their tiny minds if they think that advertising at length that David Cameron referred to their leaders as terrorist sympathisers is a good idea.
But by harping on and on about it, they are looking even more foolish than I could ever have imagined.
But that is what happens when you elect a terrorist supporter as your leader0 -
I guess it makes a change from claiming hurt on behalf of others, who actually don't give a s##t e.g the lefty councils who get their knickers in a twist about some Christmas tradition might offend some other faiths...when 99% of those supposed to be offend seem totally bemused by why the council seem to think that might be the case.Cyclefree said:We used to have a Left that liked to think it talked about issues (or "ishoos" as the late Tony Benn would have it). Now we have a Left that it is obsessed with its own feelings, particularly its hurt feelings.
Politics as a branch of psychotherapy. Who would ever have thought that this was what a genuine Left-wing alternative meant.
In fact a Muslim friend of mine is most upset today over a Christmas tradition....her animatronic Santa has stopped working. She is way more into Christmas than me.0 -
Corbyn ignoring the very reasonable point about targeting oil supplies.0
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Yes you are you are disgusting.MikeK said:
I'm not belittling and insulting and insulting any of our RAF brothers, only those that send brave flyers into battle in obsolescent aircraft; no matter how well maintained. What a twat you are @watford30.watford30 said:
Tornados remain a potent weapon of war, maintained, armed and operated to the highest standards by the RAF.MikeK said:
So an underfunded airforce sends outmoded and obsolescent aircraft into battle. Should as little as 4 planes get shot down, the RAF is crippled.HurstLlama said:
The numbers given are the total numbers that will be available, assuming the eight Tornados currently in place continue. So a total crewed combat air force of 14 GR4 Tornados and a pair of Typhoons. Probably four to six planes flying each day.MikeK said:
What is the number of British planes available for Syria? The above numbers look pretty pathetic to me.MarkHopkins said:
Since we name our planes after weather, perhaps we can have some Misty Fogs and Light Rains available too.FrancisUrquhart said:
Two additional thoughts:
The Germans have volunteered to provide some of their Tornados but only for reconnaissance duties, no combat. That ought to take some of the existing load off of the RAF element and free up more sorties for dropping stuff.
The RAF Tornados now flying should have been retired from service by now, they have had their service life extended twice. In the 2010 strategic defence review Cameron and his sidekick said we would not need them.
Why do you insist on belittling and insulting those who fly and prepare these aircraft to carry out missions in hostile airspace?0 -
Violence is seemingly inevitableFloater said:
This is the new politics in truth.Plato_Says said:FFS
Harry Cole
Mark Serwotka said of targeting MPs homes: "We would like to see more of this kind of community campaigning, linking up with unions"
Ugly and going to get brutal0 -
Facebook just auto-emailed me...
"BBC Sports Personality of the Year and #TerroristSympathiser are Trending on Facebook"
Well done Labour.0 -
Jeez, this is terrible from Labour. They're not even trying to engage with the debate - about the most serious issue debated in this Parliament. They are in danger of sounding like apologists for ISIL. Are UKIP in Oldham watching, that's their by-election right there.0
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The real victims are Islington Muslims.0
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Sorry but that's bollox, this is about dropping bombs on people not pathetic point scoring.MarkHopkins said:
It's all about control. Get Cameron to apologise, and they have controlled him and affected what he can say about them in future.blackburn63 said:
Total phucking idiot, what is it with Labour and apologies, if they're not saying sorry for slavery they're demanding someone else is saying sorry for something else.CarlottaVance said:Seriously! Corbyn leads with asking for an apology.......
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Having seen a documentary on some of the so called "moderates", there are plenty within those ranks who I don't fancy having around for tea.MaxPB said:
We have enough people on the ground to get a rough split. I also highly doubt that there are anything like 70,000 troops on the ground who are interested in defeating ISIS. If you include the regime forces, Hezbollah and the Iranian ground forces then it is possible, but I'm not sure the PM has said we are going to ally ourselves with them so they won't be in that figure.Pulpstar said:
Not sure how we'll know the exact split of that - are we going to drop a survey into all Al Nusra and FSA areas ?CarlottaVance said:At last! A sensible question from the SNP - Angus Robertson - what proportion of the 70,000 could be described as moderate, what fundamentalist.
Much better than Salmond's 'hurt feelings' grand standings......0 -
'In fact a Muslim friend of mine is most upset today over a Christmas tradition....her animatronic Santa has stopped working. She is way more into Christmas than me. '
It must be tricky being a muslim parent to young children at non-religious junior schools at christmas!
That's some expectations management, right there0 -
Off topic ...it is my suspicion that HILARY BENN will be the next L P leader ; I bet heavily @10-1 and while it's possible that I could very well lose , it seems to me to be well worth the risk .....I made a hedge on LISA NANDY @ 10-1 just in case
With all the attention he is getting right now and his political pedigree it just seems to me that he has the experience / gravitas to be the bridge between the two warring factions in the LP ...the Corbyn debacle will have exhausted the idealism on the Left and now the members will be looking for someone to stabilize the situation and stop the bleeding ..Benn seems to me to be a sensible choice0 -
It makes more sense when you bear in mind that they're fighting for Labour supporters come the next leadership challenge, not voters in the next general election.AlastairMeeks said:Labour have gone out of their tiny minds if they think that advertising at length that David Cameron referred to their leaders as terrorist sympathisers is a good idea.
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Jeremy Corbyn - RIP0
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Yes send in the iron guard of yougov with Survations special forces.Pulpstar said:
Not sure how we'll know the exact split of that - are we going to drop a survey into all Al Nusra and FSA areas ?CarlottaVance said:At last! A sensible question from the SNP - Angus Robertson - what proportion of the 70,000 could be described as moderate, what fundamentalist.
Much better than Salmond's 'hurt feelings' grand standings......0 -
Has Douglas Carswell said how he will vote? He voted in favour of action in Syria in 2013 IIRC.0
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A friend of mine had their secret santa at work cancelled by the diversity officer, she was unimpressed and now they have started an unofficial one with exactly the same people in it as last year, including two Muslims, a Buddhist and a Hindu. No one seemed that bothered according to her by the idea of of it being a Christian celebration, most just wanted to give a gift and go out for a drink while doing it.FrancisUrquhart said:
I guess it makes a change from claiming hurt on behalf of others, who actually don't give a s##t e.g the lefty councils who get their knickers in a twist about some Christmas tradition might offend some other faiths...when 99% of those supposed to be offend seem totally bemused by why the council seem to think that might be the case.Cyclefree said:We used to have a Left that liked to think it talked about issues (or "ishoos" as the late Tony Benn would have it). Now we have a Left that it is obsessed with its own feelings, particularly its hurt feelings.
Politics as a branch of psychotherapy. Who would ever have thought that this was what a genuine Left-wing alternative meant.
In fact a Muslim friend of mine is most upset today over a Christmas tradition....her animatronic Santa has stopped working. She is way more into Christmas than me.0 -
Yes you are, and I'm more than happy to call you out for it.MikeK said:
I'm not belittling and insulting and insulting any of our RAF brothers, only those that send brave flyers into battle in obsolescent aircraft; no matter how well maintained. What a twat you are @watford30.watford30 said:
Tornados remain a potent weapon of war, maintained, armed and operated to the highest standards by the RAF.MikeK said:
So an underfunded airforce sends outmoded and obsolescent aircraft into battle. Should as little as 4 planes get shot down, the RAF is crippled.HurstLlama said:
The numbers given are the total numbers that will be available, assuming the eight Tornados currently in place continue. So a total crewed combat air force of 14 GR4 Tornados and a pair of Typhoons. Probably four to six planes flying each day.MikeK said:
What is the number of British planes available for Syria? The above numbers look pretty pathetic to me.MarkHopkins said:
Since we name our planes after weather, perhaps we can have some Misty Fogs and Light Rains available too.FrancisUrquhart said:
Two additional thoughts:
The Germans have volunteered to provide some of their Tornados but only for reconnaissance duties, no combat. That ought to take some of the existing load off of the RAF element and free up more sorties for dropping stuff.
The RAF Tornados now flying should have been retired from service by now, they have had their service life extended twice. In the 2010 strategic defence review Cameron and his sidekick said we would not need them.
Why do you insist on belittling and insulting those who fly and prepare these aircraft to carry out missions in hostile airspace?
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Corbyn is just lying about the inevitability of civilian casualties. The facts about our actions in Iraq are that we have no caused ANY civilian casualties.0
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Corbyn now talking about "my borough".
Does he ever leave the place?0 -
I certainly do not wish to see RAF casualties on any scale. However should the body bags start coming back will you look me in the eye @flightpath01flightpath01 said:
MikeK is talking utter ignorant garbage as per usual.Sandpit said:
Do any Syrians or the Daesh have anything capable of shooting down a Tornado? The only plane shot down in the last few months that I'm aware of was an old Ruski bomber that thought the Turkish wouldn't call their bluff.MikeK said:
So an underfunded airforce sends outmoded and obsolescent aircraft into battle. Should as little as 4 planes get shot down, the RAF is crippled.HurstLlama said:
The numbers given are the total numbers that will be available, assuming the eight Tornados currently in place continue. So a total crewed combat air force of 14 GR4 Tornados and a pair of Typhoons. Probably four to six planes flying each day.MikeK said:
What is the number of British planes available for Syria? The above numbers look pretty pathetic to me.MarkHopkins said:
Since we name our planes after weather, perhaps we can have some Misty Fogs and Light Rains available too.FrancisUrquhart said:
Two additional thoughts:
The Germans have volunteered to provide some of their Tornados but only for reconnaissance duties, no combat. That ought to take some of the existing load off of the RAF element and free up more sorties for dropping stuff.
The RAF Tornados now flying should have been retired from service by now, they have had their service life extended twice. In the 2010 strategic defence review Cameron and his sidekick said we would not need them.
I'm sure the RAF have sufficient kit to keep a few Tonkas in the air, this war will about taking a small number of strategic targets rather than something of the scale of Iraq.0 -
@RobDotHutton: Whatever the wisdom of the remarks, Labour should know the Tories are quite happy to spend four years debating Corbyn's view of terrorists.0
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Still undecided, per his tweets, but affecting to be more convinced by the PM.Richard_Nabavi said:Has Douglas Carswell said how he will vote? He voted in favour of action in Syria in 2013 IIRC.
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Hopefully IS won't fancy them coming round for tea as wellFrancisUrquhart said:
Having seen a documentary on some of the so called "moderates", there are plenty within those ranks who I don't fancy having around for tea.MaxPB said:
We have enough people on the ground to get a rough split. I also highly doubt that there are anything like 70,000 troops on the ground who are interested in defeating ISIS. If you include the regime forces, Hezbollah and the Iranian ground forces then it is possible, but I'm not sure the PM has said we are going to ally ourselves with them so they won't be in that figure.Pulpstar said:
Not sure how we'll know the exact split of that - are we going to drop a survey into all Al Nusra and FSA areas ?CarlottaVance said:At last! A sensible question from the SNP - Angus Robertson - what proportion of the 70,000 could be described as moderate, what fundamentalist.
Much better than Salmond's 'hurt feelings' grand standings......0 -
We won't need to.Scott_P said:@RobDotHutton: Whatever the wisdom of the remarks, Labour should know the Tories are quite happy to spend four years debating Corbyn's view of terrorists.
He won't last that long.0 -
Nochestnut said:Corbyn now talking about "my borough".
Does he ever leave the place?0 -
If Emily Thornberry is going to be a candidate, then there is no hope at all.edmundintokyo said:
It makes more sense when you bear in mind that they're fighting for Labour supporters come the next leadership challenge, not voters in the next general election.AlastairMeeks said:Labour have gone out of their tiny minds if they think that advertising at length that David Cameron referred to their leaders as terrorist sympathisers is a good idea.
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Indeed, how can we target the oil sales without targeting the oil infrastructure? The US seem to be unwilling to bomb the oil infrastructure because it might piss off Turkey and Saudi Arabia, the Russians don't want to do it so that Assad will have an income stream should ISIS be defeated which leaves us and France to get on with it.Slackbladder said:Corbyn ignoring the very reasonable point about targeting oil supplies.
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Jezzabel is a very poor orator. I was led to understand that he was a master of the art.0
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He's umming and aahing on Tiwtter, very unimpressed with the apology-seekers.Richard_Nabavi said:Has Douglas Carswell said how he will vote? He voted in favour of action in Syria in 2013 IIRC.
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Please tell me this diversity officer is in the private sector, I hope we're not funding this sort of nonsenseMaxPB said:
A friend of mine had their secret santa at work cancelled by the diversity officer, she was unimpressed and now they have started an unofficial one with exactly the same people in it as last year, including two Muslims, a Buddhist and a Hindu. No one seemed that bothered according to her by the idea of of it being a Christian celebration, most just wanted to give a gift and go out for a drink while doing it.FrancisUrquhart said:
I guess it makes a change from claiming hurt on behalf of others, who actually don't give a s##t e.g the lefty councils who get their knickers in a twist about some Christmas tradition might offend some other faiths...when 99% of those supposed to be offend seem totally bemused by why the council seem to think that might be the case.Cyclefree said:We used to have a Left that liked to think it talked about issues (or "ishoos" as the late Tony Benn would have it). Now we have a Left that it is obsessed with its own feelings, particularly its hurt feelings.
Politics as a branch of psychotherapy. Who would ever have thought that this was what a genuine Left-wing alternative meant.
In fact a Muslim friend of mine is most upset today over a Christmas tradition....her animatronic Santa has stopped working. She is way more into Christmas than me.
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I really really don't think he should have given the name of that constituent whose family is in Raqqa0
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Well that's another party split then, I think UKIP policy is against air strikes or any kind of intervention.edmundintokyo said:
Still undecided, per his tweets, but affecting to be more convinced by the PM.Richard_Nabavi said:Has Douglas Carswell said how he will vote? He voted in favour of action in Syria in 2013 IIRC.
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Thanks. I'm sure that, however he votes, it will be a decision based on his best assessment of the actual issue, rather than extraneous factors or political calculation.edmundintokyo said:Still undecided, per his tweets, but affecting to be more convinced by the PM.
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As an aside the Typhoons were practicing air to air combat over the Lincoln Edge today. Actually quite strange to see how close they got to each other given that the main strategy seems to be stand off and use missiles. Also interesting to see how quickly they can turn and appear to stand still at times.0
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@dizzy_thinks: Did the family living in ISIS-controlled Syria that @jeremycorbyn just name-checked get executed yet?JohnLilburne said:I really really don't think he should have given the name of that constituent whose family is in Raqqa
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This discussion has been closed.