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  • Richard_Nabavi
    Richard_Nabavi Posts: 30,822
    edited November 2015
    Casino_Royale said:

    Yes. It's the one I linked to downthread.

    Very balanced and goes through each of our export sectors, models and economic impacts in turn.

    Right, yes I agree. However the Policy Network document is more detailed on the mechanics of the various treaties, which was what I meant.
  • Sunil_Prasannan
    Sunil_Prasannan Posts: 55,077
    Tissue_Price said:

    TOPPING said:

    JosiasJessop said:

    A section on DP about virtue signalling.

    It's that time of year again, and I've given money to poppy sellers but refused a poppy in return. Is the demand that people wear poppies just virtue signalling writ large?

    (runs for cover)

    and apart from the linked articles, there are several pieces by eg. Jon Snow, Charlene White, etc who refuse to wear one because it preferences one charity over another.

    All very valid and if I were to think about it (big effort) I would say that a poppy represents (or has come to represent) both a national existential struggle and the ultimate sacrifice. You are saying you support those who go to fight so you can stay free (forget current conflicts where that line is none too clear).

    So by wearing it you are also engaging in national solidarity and acceptance that we are a unitary nation which is prepared to fight for the values we hold dear.

    It is still virtue signalling after a fashion but it is also a shortcut to illustrate your, our value system. Not so bad given the various assaults on that system from one group or another.

    Paying for a poppy is not virtue signalling, by definition - you've sacrificed something to make a statement; whereas virtue signalling costs nothing. Demanding that others wear (or don't wear) poppies probably is.
    "This train has been cancelled due to virtue signalling failure"

    (I'll get me donkey jacket...)
  • bigjohnowls
    bigjohnowls Posts: 22,951
    chestnut said:

    £2bn is peanuts in a service that costs sixty times that.

    Half decent management should be able to save that without breaking sweat.


    Good so Cameron is right that the £2bn deficit built up in spring/summer will be eradicated in winter.

    Thats a relief

    http://www.hsj.co.uk/newsletter/comment/panic-and-denial-wont-solve-funding-issues/5090395.article?WT.tsrc=email&WT.mc_id=Newsletter170#.VjoGGrfhAol
  • JEO
    JEO Posts: 3,656
    edited November 2015
    Thanks for the two links to the Policy Network and Open Europe document. And thanks for the pointer from LucyJones about the potential funding biases of the Policy Network. I'll bear that in mind when I read them.

    EDIT: To be honest, I'd be more concerned about the author being the former Labour Minister for Europe...
  • Casino_Royale
    Casino_Royale Posts: 63,687
    Richard_Nabavi said:

    Casino_Royale said:

    Yes. It's the one I linked to downthread.

    Very balanced and goes through each of our export sectors, models and economic impacts in turn.

    Right, yes I agree. However the Policy Network document is more detailed on the mechanics, which was what I meant.
    Fair enough. Pleased we agree on something EU related!

    What I like about the Open Europe paper is that it's honest about the uncertainty, and doesn't make any assumptions about how negotiations or deals may turn out, but it does do its best to explain the facts and then assess the risks and opportunities with each model with reasonable probabilities of outcome attached.
  • isam
    isam Posts: 42,205
    edited November 2015
    UKIPs Gerard Batten, who called for a Muslim Charter, is neither racist nor prejudiced says Tory MP

    "Rebel Tory MP Andrew Rosindell has teamed up with Ukip election rival Gerard Batten to push for Britain to leave the European Union

    Just six months after trading blows on the campaign trail in Romford, the pair are fronting a cross-party Havering group ahead of the EU referendum.

    Mr Rosindell said he has also spoken to members of the borough’s various residents’ groups about joining and is keen to put party differences aside.

    He said: “I believe we will form a very strong group to fight to restore Britain’s independence.

    He added: “I am willing to work with any mainstream party but not extremists. Not the BNP or EDL or anyone who is prejudice or racist.””


    http://www.romfordrecorder.co.uk/news/politics/romford_mp_andrew_rosindell_teams_with_ukip_mep_gerard_batten_for_eu_out_campaign_1_4296168
  • Sandpit
    Sandpit Posts: 56,045
    isam said:

    Sandpit said:

    Key partnership here between Cook and Root. If they can put on 80 or 100 for the next wicket then we've got a match tomorrow. Eng at 4/1 on Betfair looks value.

    This has been a great series hasn't it? People complain about slow run rate but every match has gone to the final day with at least two results possible
    It's been very good, three close matches. The slow over rates and run rates are probably a factor of the heat but they got through the matches - although that last day in AD was one of the weirdest day's cricket I've ever seen first hand.

    Pretty peeved I'm not going to be able to make it there tomorrow, damn customers getting in the way after I'd done my best to engineer a day off!
  • rcs1000
    rcs1000 Posts: 60,717
    JosiasJessop said:

    A section on DP about virtue signalling.

    It's that time of year again, and I've given money to poppy sellers but refused a poppy in return. Is the demand that people wear poppies just virtue signalling writ large?

    (runs for cover)

    I'm in Canada, and have bought a poppy from a seller here. (It is every bit as common to wear a poppy here as in the UK.)

    However, the quality of the poppies is much, much higher. They don't feel like some cheap bit of paper.

    Question for PBers: am I allowed to wear my Canadian poppy back in London, or do I have to get an additional British one? (I will, of course, donate in the UK.)
  • Pulpstar
    Pulpstar Posts: 79,813
    Hmm the draw might still be live in the test, average so far is 235 runs per day and 238 are needed. If Pakistan's spinners tie England up and get some wickets then it becomes a real possibility (Pak/Draw game) rather than a PAK/ENG game.
  • bigjohnowls
    bigjohnowls Posts: 22,951
    Dave moans PMQs is getting longer.

    He needs to remember why PMQs is taking so long, it's the juvenile behaviour group of overgrown schoolboys on his side barracking
  • chestnut
    chestnut Posts: 7,341
    bigjohnowls said:

    chestnut said:

    £2bn is peanuts in a service that costs sixty times that.

    Half decent management should be able to save that without breaking sweat.


    Good so Cameron is right that the £2bn deficit built up in spring/summer will be eradicated in winter.

    Thats a relief

    http://www.hsj.co.uk/newsletter/comment/panic-and-denial-wont-solve-funding-issues/5090395.article?WT.tsrc=email&WT.mc_id=Newsletter170#.VjoGGrfhAol
    NHS Stealth Salary Rises costing an extra billion every year....

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/health/news/10468332/Stealth-pay-rises-for-NHS-staff-costing-1bn-a-year.html
  • Casino_Royale
    Casino_Royale Posts: 63,687
    I really am quite uncomfortable with this - storing everyone's browsing history for a year?

    There will be leaks and abuses and it sounds a receipe for blackmail to me:

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-34715872
  • Pulpstar
    Pulpstar Posts: 79,813
    Casino_Royale said:

    I really am quite uncomfortable with this - storing everyone's browsing history for a year?

    There will be leaks and abuses and it sounds a receipe for blackmail to me:

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-34715872

    Gov't approved porn sites :D
  • Sunil_Prasannan
    Sunil_Prasannan Posts: 55,077
    Pulpstar said:

    Casino_Royale said:

    I really am quite uncomfortable with this - storing everyone's browsing history for a year?

    There will be leaks and abuses and it sounds a receipe for blackmail to me:

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-34715872

    Gov't approved porn sites :D
    Goodsex :lol:
  • Sunil_Prasannan
    Sunil_Prasannan Posts: 55,077
    rcs1000 said:

    JosiasJessop said:

    A section on DP about virtue signalling.

    It's that time of year again, and I've given money to poppy sellers but refused a poppy in return. Is the demand that people wear poppies just virtue signalling writ large?

    (runs for cover)

    I'm in Canada, and have bought a poppy from a seller here. (It is every bit as common to wear a poppy here as in the UK.)

    However, the quality of the poppies is much, much higher. They don't feel like some cheap bit of paper.

    Question for PBers: am I allowed to wear my Canadian poppy back in London, or do I have to get an additional British one? (I will, of course, donate in the UK.)
    Canada and Blighty both share the same Monarch!
  • viewcode
    viewcode Posts: 25,202
    JEO said:

    Thanks for the two links to the Policy Network and Open Europe document. And thanks for the pointer from LucyJones about the potential funding biases of the Policy Network. I'll bear that in mind when I read them.

    EDIT: To be honest, I'd be more concerned about the author being the former Labour Minister for Europe...

    If we are speaking of funding sources possibly biasing articles, I do need to point out that Matthew Elliott (or Business for Britain or a subset therof, I forget which), has received money from The Telegraph. I think it's called "vertical integration": newspaper pays think-tank, think-tank publishes report, report excerpts get published in the newspaper.
  • TheWhiteRabbit
    TheWhiteRabbit Posts: 12,455
    Casino_Royale said:

    I really am quite uncomfortable with this - storing everyone's browsing history for a year?

    There will be leaks and abuses and it sounds a receipe for blackmail to me:

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-34715872

    How long do we store call data?
  • kle4
    kle4 Posts: 99,113
    bigjohnowls said:

    Dave moans PMQs is getting longer.

    He needs to remember why PMQs is taking so long, it's the juvenile behaviour group of overgrown schoolboys on his side barracking

    bigjohnowls said:

    Dave moans PMQs is getting longer.

    He needs to remember why PMQs is taking so long, it's the juvenile behaviour group of overgrown schoolboys on his side barracking

    Barracking is integral to the average PMQ experience, it really should not therefore be adding that much to the process than what it always has. I'm not defending Cameron's moaning on this, I don't care how long it takes and inconveniencing him is also what it is about, but I also don't give much truck to complaints about any side barracking too much.
  • bigjohnowls
    bigjohnowls Posts: 22,951
    Pulpstar said:

    Hmm the draw might still be live in the test, average so far is 235 runs per day and 238 are needed. If Pakistan's spinners tie England up and get some wickets then it becomes a real possibility (Pak/Draw game) rather than a PAK/ENG game.

    I am green on Pakistan win and draw red on England win.
  • MaxPB
    MaxPB Posts: 40,327
    HYUFD said:

    It will be close but I expect Khan to win, London voted Labour in May and Khan is ruthless and will get out the ethnic vote. Goldsmith also lacks the charisma of Boris and his appeal to white van man although he will win LD and Green preferences he is unlikely to win many from UKIP despite his euroscepticism

    The non-Muslim vote will be more motivated that the Muslim vote. I am apparently an Ethnic voter and I would rather leave London for Zurich or New York than vote or live under a Khan mayoralty. Lumping everyone together doesn't work.
  • Sandpit
    Sandpit Posts: 56,045
    Pulpstar said:

    Hmm the draw might still be live in the test, average so far is 235 runs per day and 238 are needed. If Pakistan's spinners tie England up and get some wickets then it becomes a real possibility (Pak/Draw game) rather than a PAK/ENG game.

    All three results are certainly in play, a slow and steady start to the day will bring the draw price in from the current 14.5 on BF. With 238 to get, we need to have 80 by lunch and at least 150 by tea with (hopefully) a handful of wickets left.

    If we can hold it together there will be a grandstand finish to the match.

    Remember that, as in the first test, there will be an absolute cutoff for light, at 17:15L (13:15GMT), not allowing the extra half hour to be taken.
  • Casino_Royale
    Casino_Royale Posts: 63,687
    TheWhiteRabbit said:

    Casino_Royale said:

    I really am quite uncomfortable with this - storing everyone's browsing history for a year?

    There will be leaks and abuses and it sounds a receipe for blackmail to me:

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-34715872

    How long do we store call data?
    I don't know. Interestingly, Labour are supporting it, Nick Clegg says it's "much improved" and even the SNP aren't opposed. Only the Greens seem to have a problem with it.

    But I could easily see local authorities or police abusing this: "do you want me to tell your wife you looked at redtube 4 times a month last year?"

    I've never bought the 'nothing to hide, nothing to fear' defence. We all have something to hide. And, besides which, part of our sovereignty as individuals is about retaining control over what we choose to reveal.
  • TheScreamingEagles
    TheScreamingEagles Posts: 122,806
    Casino_Royale said:

    I really am quite uncomfortable with this - storing everyone's browsing history for a year?

    There will be leaks and abuses and it sounds a receipe for blackmail to me:

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-34715872

    I've started wearing this medical alert bracelet.

    http://www.incrediblethings.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/01/Delete-My-Browser-History-Medicalert-Bracelet.jpg
  • Casino_Royale
    Casino_Royale Posts: 63,687
    Casino_Royale said:

    TheWhiteRabbit said:

    Casino_Royale said:

    I really am quite uncomfortable with this - storing everyone's browsing history for a year?

    There will be leaks and abuses and it sounds a receipe for blackmail to me:

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-34715872

    How long do we store call data?
    I don't know. Interestingly, Labour are supporting it, Nick Clegg says it's "much improved" and even the SNP aren't opposed. Only the Greens seem to have a problem with it.

    But I could easily see local authorities or police abusing this: "do you want me to tell your wife you looked at redtube 4 times a month last year?"

    I've never bought the 'nothing to hide, nothing to fear' defence. We all have something to hide. And, besides which, part of our sovereignty as individuals is about retaining control over what we choose to reveal.
    If we are going to have a UK court of human rights rather than a European one, this is precisely the sort of thing I'd hope it could constitutionally rule upon.

    I personally would want a warrant to start recording someone's browsing history in the first place. Not recording everyone's by default.
  • MaxPB
    MaxPB Posts: 40,327
    Casino_Royale said:

    TheWhiteRabbit said:

    Casino_Royale said:

    I really am quite uncomfortable with this - storing everyone's browsing history for a year?

    There will be leaks and abuses and it sounds a receipe for blackmail to me:

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-34715872

    How long do we store call data?
    I don't know. Interestingly, Labour are supporting it, Nick Clegg says it's "much improved" and even the SNP aren't opposed. Only the Greens seem to have a problem with it.

    But I could easily see local authorities or police abusing this: "do you want me to tell your wife you looked at redtube 4 times a month last year?"

    I've never bought the 'nothing to hide, nothing to fear' defence. We all have something to hide. And, besides which, part of our sovereignty as individuals is about retaining control over what we choose to reveal.
    There is a new stipulation that outlines a 2 year prison sentence for abuse by local authority workers. One would hope that the definition of abuse is quite broad.
  • Plato_Says
    Plato_Says Posts: 11,822
    The draft Investigatory Powers Bill is available here:
    https://t.co/WSiZSv6PPM
    #IPBill #IPB
  • Philip_Thompson
    Philip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    TheWhiteRabbit said:

    Casino_Royale said:

    I really am quite uncomfortable with this - storing everyone's browsing history for a year?

    There will be leaks and abuses and it sounds a receipe for blackmail to me:

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-34715872

    How long do we store call data?
    Very good question, I hadn't thought about it that way.
  • logical_song
    logical_song Posts: 10,082
    isam said:

    UKIPs Gerard Batten, who called for a Muslim Charter, is neither racist nor prejudiced says Tory MP

    "Rebel Tory MP Andrew Rosindell has teamed up with Ukip election rival Gerard Batten to push for Britain to leave the European Union

    Just six months after trading blows on the campaign trail in Romford, the pair are fronting a cross-party Havering group ahead of the EU referendum.

    Mr Rosindell said he has also spoken to members of the borough’s various residents’ groups about joining and is keen to put party differences aside.

    He said: “I believe we will form a very strong group to fight to restore Britain’s independence.

    He added: “I am willing to work with any mainstream party but not extremists. Not the BNP or EDL or anyone who is prejudice or racist.””


    http://www.romfordrecorder.co.uk/news/politics/romford_mp_andrew_rosindell_teams_with_ukip_mep_gerard_batten_for_eu_out_campaign_1_4296168

    Appropriate:
    http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/haver
  • viewcode
    viewcode Posts: 25,202
    Casino_Royale said:

    I really am quite uncomfortable with this - storing everyone's browsing history for a year?

    There will be leaks and abuses and it sounds a receipe for blackmail to me:

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-34715872

    They already know. They've always already known. Everytime your browser requests a page or you post an item, somebody somewhere stores that information. All of it, every bit of it, since the first day you browsed. If you ignore moving images (an important caveat), the storage capacity required is achievable, and getting easier every day. The only reason why they don't do anything* really* oppressive with it is because we're not really important enough to bother with, and plowing thru all that data is a genuine problem...but even that latter point is getting easier.

    (sorry, I tend to get a bit ranty about this point...)
  • bigjohnowls
    bigjohnowls Posts: 22,951
    chestnut said:

    bigjohnowls said:

    chestnut said:

    £2bn is peanuts in a service that costs sixty times that.

    Half decent management should be able to save that without breaking sweat.


    Good so Cameron is right that the £2bn deficit built up in spring/summer will be eradicated in winter.

    Thats a relief

    http://www.hsj.co.uk/newsletter/comment/panic-and-denial-wont-solve-funding-issues/5090395.article?WT.tsrc=email&WT.mc_id=Newsletter170#.VjoGGrfhAol
    NHS Stealth Salary Rises costing an extra billion every year....

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/health/news/10468332/Stealth-pay-rises-for-NHS-staff-costing-1bn-a-year.html
    So how does that answer how £2bn deficit built up in the 3 spring/summer months will be eradicated in the winter?

    You actually agree with me that it won't be eradicated don't you?
  • Casino_Royale
    Casino_Royale Posts: 63,687
    TheScreamingEagles said:

    Casino_Royale said:

    I really am quite uncomfortable with this - storing everyone's browsing history for a year?

    There will be leaks and abuses and it sounds a receipe for blackmail to me:

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-34715872

    I've started wearing this medical alert bracelet.

    http://www.incrediblethings.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/01/Delete-My-Browser-History-Medicalert-Bracelet.jpg
    But wouldn't this bill make deleting your browser history meaningless?

    The ISP would have to store it for a year by law, and you could never delete it.
  • Pulpstar
    Pulpstar Posts: 79,813
    http://order-order.com/2015/10/26/paris-climate-summit-blows-e151-million-luxury-accommodation-and-limos/

    40,000 "delegates" all on the climate change gravy train can't be wrong.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7BhKQoTzns0
  • felix
    felix Posts: 15,180
    bigjohnowls said:

    Dave moans PMQs is getting longer.

    He needs to remember why PMQs is taking so long, it's the juvenile behaviour group of overgrown schoolboys on his side barracking

    Oh dear - now you'll be saying '24 hours to save PMQs' Yaaawwwnnn.
  • AlastairMeeks
    AlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    Sort of related to the Investigatory Powers Bill, the person who came up with the concept of incognito browsing was a marketing genius.
  • TheScreamingEagles
    TheScreamingEagles Posts: 122,806
    Casino_Royale said:

    TheScreamingEagles said:

    Casino_Royale said:

    I really am quite uncomfortable with this - storing everyone's browsing history for a year?

    There will be leaks and abuses and it sounds a receipe for blackmail to me:

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-34715872

    I've started wearing this medical alert bracelet.

    http://www.incrediblethings.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/01/Delete-My-Browser-History-Medicalert-Bracelet.jpg
    But wouldn't this bill make deleting your browser history meaningless?

    The ISP would have to store it for a year by law, and you could never delete it.
    Bugger.
  • bigjohnowls
    bigjohnowls Posts: 22,951
    felix said:

    bigjohnowls said:

    Dave moans PMQs is getting longer.

    He needs to remember why PMQs is taking so long, it's the juvenile behaviour group of overgrown schoolboys on his side barracking

    Oh dear - now you'll be saying '24 hours to save PMQs' Yaaawwwnnn.
    After five outings by Jeremy Corbyn you would have thought David Cameron would be starting to get his measure by now.
    The Labour leader brings a weary air to the exchanges , asking his questions with the gentleness of an undertaker talking to the newly bereaved.
    Cameron, and the Tories behind him, are still itching for a punch up.
    The incessant jeering by the Conservatives at Corbyn is not just tiresome, it must look odious to any casual viewer.
  • Casino_Royale
    Casino_Royale Posts: 63,687
    MaxPB said:

    Casino_Royale said:

    TheWhiteRabbit said:

    Casino_Royale said:

    I really am quite uncomfortable with this - storing everyone's browsing history for a year?

    There will be leaks and abuses and it sounds a receipe for blackmail to me:

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-34715872

    How long do we store call data?
    I don't know. Interestingly, Labour are supporting it, Nick Clegg says it's "much improved" and even the SNP aren't opposed. Only the Greens seem to have a problem with it.

    But I could easily see local authorities or police abusing this: "do you want me to tell your wife you looked at redtube 4 times a month last year?"

    I've never bought the 'nothing to hide, nothing to fear' defence. We all have something to hide. And, besides which, part of our sovereignty as individuals is about retaining control over what we choose to reveal.
    There is a new stipulation that outlines a 2 year prison sentence for abuse by local authority workers. One would hope that the definition of abuse is quite broad.
    That's just it: one would hope. Funnily enough, I trust GCHQ and Mi5 far more on this - they don't have the time or resources to waste on joe public - but there's a litany of past abuses by the nose-poking petty official over the last 10-15 years, and it ends with less power and control by the citizen and more bossiness by the state. Some of whom at the local level love monitoring compliance of people and then bossing them, threatening them if it doesn't work.

    I am hugely suspicious of this.
  • AlastairMeeks
    AlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    bigjohnowls said:

    felix said:

    bigjohnowls said:

    Dave moans PMQs is getting longer.

    He needs to remember why PMQs is taking so long, it's the juvenile behaviour group of overgrown schoolboys on his side barracking

    Oh dear - now you'll be saying '24 hours to save PMQs' Yaaawwwnnn.
    After five outings by Jeremy Corbyn you would have thought David Cameron would be starting to get his measure by now.
    The Labour leader brings a weary air to the exchanges , asking his questions with the gentleness of an undertaker talking to the newly bereaved.
    Cameron, and the Tories behind him, are still itching for a punch up.
    The incessant jeering by the Conservatives at Corbyn is not just tiresome, it must look odious to any casual viewer.
    Who are these casual viewers of Prime Minister's Questions of whom you speak?
  • Morris_Dancer
    Morris_Dancer Posts: 62,742
    Mr. Royale, agree entirely on data.

    It's not just the obvious adult(ery) sites, it's also checking about contraception/abortion information, or symptoms of STDs.
  • Casino_Royale
    Casino_Royale Posts: 63,687
    viewcode said:

    Casino_Royale said:

    I really am quite uncomfortable with this - storing everyone's browsing history for a year?

    There will be leaks and abuses and it sounds a receipe for blackmail to me:

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-34715872

    They already know. They've always already known. Everytime your browser requests a page or you post an item, somebody somewhere stores that information. All of it, every bit of it, since the first day you browsed. If you ignore moving images (an important caveat), the storage capacity required is achievable, and getting easier every day. The only reason why they don't do anything* really* oppressive with it is because we're not really important enough to bother with, and plowing thru all that data is a genuine problem...but even that latter point is getting easier.

    (sorry, I tend to get a bit ranty about this point...)
    So why the need for the bill then?
  • TheScreamingEagles
    TheScreamingEagles Posts: 122,806
    On topic, London was the only place Labour did well in May. I think they should win. Zac lacks the charm and charisma of Boris.
  • TheScreamingEagles
    TheScreamingEagles Posts: 122,806
    bigjohnowls said:

    felix said:

    bigjohnowls said:

    Dave moans PMQs is getting longer.

    He needs to remember why PMQs is taking so long, it's the juvenile behaviour group of overgrown schoolboys on his side barracking

    Oh dear - now you'll be saying '24 hours to save PMQs' Yaaawwwnnn.
    After five outings by Jeremy Corbyn you would have thought David Cameron would be starting to get his measure by now.
    The Labour leader brings a weary air to the exchanges , asking his questions with the gentleness of an undertaker talking to the newly bereaved.
    Cameron, and the Tories behind him, are still itching for a punch up.
    The incessant jeering by the Conservatives at Corbyn is not just tiresome, it must look odious to any casual viewer.
    Note the lack of support/cheering Corbyn gets from the Labour backbenches
  • Plato_Says
    Plato_Says Posts: 11,822
    Or cross-dressing or S&M shopping... the list is very long re blackmail depending on your social circle or day job
    Morris_Dancer said:

    Mr. Royale, agree entirely on data.

    It's not just the obvious adult(ery) sites, it's also checking about contraception/abortion information, or symptoms of STDs.

  • Casino_Royale
    Casino_Royale Posts: 63,687
    Morris_Dancer said:

    Mr. Royale, agree entirely on data.

    It's not just the obvious adult(ery) sites, it's also checking about contraception/abortion information, or symptoms of STDs.

    Legal advice on divorce. How to save a relationship. Browsing competitors for possible jobs. Betting when a spouse or family member might disapprove. Doing research that's misinterpreted. Exploring religions or political sites that might be at odds with your professional or peer group.

    The list goes on.
  • Sandpit
    Sandpit Posts: 56,045
    Casino_Royale said:

    MaxPB said:

    Casino_Royale said:

    TheWhiteRabbit said:

    Casino_Royale said:

    I really am quite uncomfortable with this - storing everyone's browsing history for a year?

    There will be leaks and abuses and it sounds a receipe for blackmail to me:

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-34715872

    How long do we store call data?
    I don't know. Interestingly, Labour are supporting it, Nick Clegg says it's "much improved" and even the SNP aren't opposed. Only the Greens seem to have a problem with it.

    But I could easily see local authorities or police abusing this: "do you want me to tell your wife you looked at redtube 4 times a month last year?"

    I've never bought the 'nothing to hide, nothing to fear' defence. We all have something to hide. And, besides which, part of our sovereignty as individuals is about retaining control over what we choose to reveal.
    There is a new stipulation that outlines a 2 year prison sentence for abuse by local authority workers. One would hope that the definition of abuse is quite broad.
    That's just it: one would hope. Funnily enough, I trust GCHQ and Mi5 far more on this - they don't have the time or resources to waste on joe public - but there's a litany of past abuses by the nose-poking petty official over the last 10-15 years, and it ends with less power and control by the citizen and more bossiness by the state. Some of whom at the local level love monitoring compliance of people and then bossing them, threatening them if it doesn't work.

    I am hugely suspicious of this.
    You've every right to be suspicious. Police and especially local authorities have a long track record of abusing their access to information for personal, petty or vindictive reasons. This should be restricted to the spooks.
  • bigjohnowls
    bigjohnowls Posts: 22,951
    TheScreamingEagles said:

    bigjohnowls said:

    felix said:

    bigjohnowls said:

    Dave moans PMQs is getting longer.

    He needs to remember why PMQs is taking so long, it's the juvenile behaviour group of overgrown schoolboys on his side barracking

    Oh dear - now you'll be saying '24 hours to save PMQs' Yaaawwwnnn.
    After five outings by Jeremy Corbyn you would have thought David Cameron would be starting to get his measure by now.
    The Labour leader brings a weary air to the exchanges , asking his questions with the gentleness of an undertaker talking to the newly bereaved.
    Cameron, and the Tories behind him, are still itching for a punch up.
    The incessant jeering by the Conservatives at Corbyn is not just tiresome, it must look odious to any casual viewer.
    Note the lack of support/cheering Corbyn gets from the Labour backbenches
    90% would prefer Burnham, Cooper or Kendall to be leader and for Lab to be going along with Austerity.
  • TheScreamingEagles
    TheScreamingEagles Posts: 122,806
    Casino_Royale said:

    Morris_Dancer said:

    Mr. Royale, agree entirely on data.

    It's not just the obvious adult(ery) sites, it's also checking about contraception/abortion information, or symptoms of STDs.

    Legal advice on divorce. How to save a relationship. Browsing competitors for possible jobs. Betting when a spouse or family member might disapprove. Doing research that's misinterpreted. Exploring religions or political sites that might be at odds with your professional or peer group.

    The list goes on.
    Whilst I do share your broad concerns, it is just updating things for the age of the information super highway

    Look how we dealt with a traitorous pig dog nearly 60 years ago.

    @MichaelLCrick: On surveillance, this is Home Secretary in 1951 agreeing postal interception of addresses linked to Guy Burgess https://t.co/dTc9u8z73u
  • Sandpit
    Sandpit Posts: 56,045
    antifrank said:

    Sort of related to the Investigatory Powers Bill, the person who came up with the concept of incognito browsing was a marketing genius.

    Private browsing is only there so that your other half can't see that you were "shopping for birthday presents" - any network traffic that leaves the computer doesn't care what mode your browser is in and can still log everything you've been looking at!
  • TheScreamingEagles
    TheScreamingEagles Posts: 122,806
    Sandpit said:

    antifrank said:

    Sort of related to the Investigatory Powers Bill, the person who came up with the concept of incognito browsing was a marketing genius.

    Private browsing is only there so that your other half can't see that you were "shopping for birthday presents" - any network traffic that leaves the computer doesn't care what mode your browser is in and can still log everything you've been looking at!
    Bugger bugger bugger
  • Anorak
    Anorak Posts: 6,621
    edited November 2015
    TheScreamingEagles said:

    Casino_Royale said:

    Morris_Dancer said:

    Mr. Royale, agree entirely on data.

    It's not just the obvious adult(ery) sites, it's also checking about contraception/abortion information, or symptoms of STDs.

    Legal advice on divorce. How to save a relationship. Browsing competitors for possible jobs. Betting when a spouse or family member might disapprove. Doing research that's misinterpreted. Exploring religions or political sites that might be at odds with your professional or peer group.

    The list goes on.
    Whilst I do share your broad concerns, it is just updating things for the age of the information super highway

    Look how we dealt with a traitorous pig dog nearly 60 years ago.

    @MichaelLCrick: On surveillance, this is Home Secretary in 1951 agreeing postal interception of addresses linked to Guy Burgess https://t.co/dTc9u8z73u
    Authorisation required from the Home Sec to open a letter, in a clear instance of a threat to national security. A far cry from a jumped-up council numpty picking through your browsing habits from the last year to see if you joked about fly-tipping a washing machine.
  • MaxPB
    MaxPB Posts: 40,327
    TheScreamingEagles said:

    Casino_Royale said:

    TheScreamingEagles said:

    Casino_Royale said:

    I really am quite uncomfortable with this - storing everyone's browsing history for a year?

    There will be leaks and abuses and it sounds a receipe for blackmail to me:

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-34715872

    I've started wearing this medical alert bracelet.

    http://www.incrediblethings.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/01/Delete-My-Browser-History-Medicalert-Bracelet.jpg
    But wouldn't this bill make deleting your browser history meaningless?

    The ISP would have to store it for a year by law, and you could never delete it.
    Bugger.
    If you use a VPN it sidesteps ISP level storage. They will only be able to see the data traffic between them and the VPN server.
  • AlastairMeeks
    AlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    Sandpit said:

    antifrank said:

    Sort of related to the Investigatory Powers Bill, the person who came up with the concept of incognito browsing was a marketing genius.

    Private browsing is only there so that your other half can't see that you were "shopping for birthday presents" - any network traffic that leaves the computer doesn't care what mode your browser is in and can still log everything you've been looking at!
    The key word in the sentence was "marketing".

    "Shopping for birthday presents" is one of the alltime great euphemisms too.
  • Casino_Royale
    Casino_Royale Posts: 63,687
    Sandpit said:

    Casino_Royale said:

    MaxPB said:

    Casino_Royale said:

    TheWhiteRabbit said:

    Casino_Royale said:

    I really am quite uncomfortable with this - storing everyone's browsing history for a year?

    There will be leaks and abuses and it sounds a receipe for blackmail to me:

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-34715872

    How long do we store call data?
    I don't know. Interestingly, Labour are supporting it, Nick Clegg says it's "much improved" and even the SNP aren't opposed. Only the Greens seem to have a problem with it.

    But I could easily see local authorities or police abusing this: "do you want me to tell your wife you looked at redtube 4 times a month last year?"

    I've never bought the 'nothing to hide, nothing to fear' defence. We all have something to hide. And, besides which, part of our sovereignty as individuals is about retaining control over what we choose to reveal.
    There is a new stipulation that outlines a 2 year prison sentence for abuse by local authority workers. One would hope that the definition of abuse is quite broad.
    That's just it: one would hope. Funnily enough, I trust GCHQ and Mi5 far more on this - they don't have the time or resources to waste on joe public - but there's a litany of past abuses by the nose-poking petty official over the last 10-15 years, and it ends with less power and control by the citizen and more bossiness by the state. Some of whom at the local level love monitoring compliance of people and then bossing them, threatening them if it doesn't work.

    I am hugely suspicious of this.
    You've every right to be suspicious. Police and especially local authorities have a long track record of abusing their access to information for personal, petty or vindictive reasons. This should be restricted to the spooks.
    I agree 100%. Restrict to spooks only.
  • TheScreamingEagles
    TheScreamingEagles Posts: 122,806

    New Thread New Thread

  • Sunil_Prasannan
    Sunil_Prasannan Posts: 55,077
    TheScreamingEagles said:

    Sandpit said:

    antifrank said:

    Sort of related to the Investigatory Powers Bill, the person who came up with the concept of incognito browsing was a marketing genius.

    Private browsing is only there so that your other half can't see that you were "shopping for birthday presents" - any network traffic that leaves the computer doesn't care what mode your browser is in and can still log everything you've been looking at!
    Bugger bugger bugger
    Tories = IngSoc?
  • Casino_Royale
    Casino_Royale Posts: 63,687
    TheScreamingEagles said:

    Casino_Royale said:

    Morris_Dancer said:

    Mr. Royale, agree entirely on data.

    It's not just the obvious adult(ery) sites, it's also checking about contraception/abortion information, or symptoms of STDs.

    Legal advice on divorce. How to save a relationship. Browsing competitors for possible jobs. Betting when a spouse or family member might disapprove. Doing research that's misinterpreted. Exploring religions or political sites that might be at odds with your professional or peer group.

    The list goes on.
    Whilst I do share your broad concerns, it is just updating things for the age of the information super highway

    Look how we dealt with a traitorous pig dog nearly 60 years ago.

    @MichaelLCrick: On surveillance, this is Home Secretary in 1951 agreeing postal interception of addresses linked to Guy Burgess https://t.co/dTc9u8z73u
    Is it though? And is it the same thing even if it is?

    You can tell far more about someone's life, problems and habits from a browsing history than you can from a list of telephone numbers.
  • chestnut
    chestnut Posts: 7,341
    bigjohnowls said:

    chestnut said:

    bigjohnowls said:

    chestnut said:

    £2bn is peanuts in a service that costs sixty times that.

    Half decent management should be able to save that without breaking sweat.


    Good so Cameron is right that the £2bn deficit built up in spring/summer will be eradicated in winter.

    Thats a relief

    http://www.hsj.co.uk/newsletter/comment/panic-and-denial-wont-solve-funding-issues/5090395.article?WT.tsrc=email&WT.mc_id=Newsletter170#.VjoGGrfhAol
    NHS Stealth Salary Rises costing an extra billion every year....

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/health/news/10468332/Stealth-pay-rises-for-NHS-staff-costing-1bn-a-year.html
    So how does that answer how £2bn deficit built up in the 3 spring/summer months will be eradicated in the winter?

    You actually agree with me that it won't be eradicated don't you?
    It's easily eradicated by management with a free hand so, no I don't agree.

    I am pointing you towards one of the sources of the deficit though.

    That can't go on.

    Archaic arrangements like 'time served' pay increases were scrapped in many parts of the public sector back in the 1990s.

    Elements of the NHS, and I suspect education, are still stuck in those by-gone times.

    Time to carve the fat off the morbidly obese health service.


  • Morris_Dancer
    Morris_Dancer Posts: 62,742
    Miss Plato, indeed. This seems far too open to abuse.
  • Richard_Nabavi
    Richard_Nabavi Posts: 30,822
    Anorak said:

    A far cry from a jumped-up council numpty picking through your browsing habits from the last year to see if you joked about fly-tipping a washing machine.

    Local authorities are explictly excluded from that power under this new bill. I think they might currently have that power under RIPA, if the ISP has the data (which I believe they usually will, for a time at least).
  • Cyclefree
    Cyclefree Posts: 25,709
    Casino_Royale said:

    TheWhiteRabbit said:

    Casino_Royale said:

    I really am quite uncomfortable with this - storing everyone's browsing history for a year?

    There will be leaks and abuses and it sounds a receipe for blackmail to me:

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-34715872

    How long do we store call data?
    I don't know. Interestingly, Labour are supporting it, Nick Clegg says it's "much improved" and even the SNP aren't opposed. Only the Greens seem to have a problem with it.

    But I could easily see local authorities or police abusing this: "do you want me to tell your wife you looked at redtube 4 times a month last year?"

    I've never bought the 'nothing to hide, nothing to fear' defence. We all have something to hide. And, besides which, part of our sovereignty as individuals is about retaining control over what we choose to reveal.
    Exactly. Privacy is essential to freedom.

  • Cyclefree
    Cyclefree Posts: 25,709
    MaxPB said:

    Casino_Royale said:

    TheWhiteRabbit said:

    Casino_Royale said:

    I really am quite uncomfortable with this - storing everyone's browsing history for a year?

    There will be leaks and abuses and it sounds a receipe for blackmail to me:

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-34715872

    How long do we store call data?
    I don't know. Interestingly, Labour are supporting it, Nick Clegg says it's "much improved" and even the SNP aren't opposed. Only the Greens seem to have a problem with it.

    But I could easily see local authorities or police abusing this: "do you want me to tell your wife you looked at redtube 4 times a month last year?"

    I've never bought the 'nothing to hide, nothing to fear' defence. We all have something to hide. And, besides which, part of our sovereignty as individuals is about retaining control over what we choose to reveal.
    There is a new stipulation that outlines a 2 year prison sentence for abuse by local authority workers. One would hope that the definition of abuse is quite broad.
    I can see no good case why local authority workers should have access to such a database.

  • kle4
    kle4 Posts: 99,113
    edited November 2015
    Casino_Royale said:

    TheWhiteRabbit said:

    Casino_Royale said:

    I really am quite uncomfortable with this - storing everyone's browsing history for a year?

    There will be leaks and abuses and it sounds a receipe for blackmail to me:

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-34715872

    How long do we store call data?
    I don't know. Interestingly, Labour are supporting it, Nick Clegg says it's "much improved" and even the SNP aren't opposed. Only the Greens seem to have a problem with it.

    But I could easily see local authorities or police abusing this: "do you want me to tell your wife you looked at redtube 4 times a month last year?"

    I've never bought the 'nothing to hide, nothing to fear' defence. We all have something to hide. And, besides which, part of our sovereignty as individuals is about retaining control over what we choose to reveal.
    Well said. I may well have nothing to fear, save embarrassment at being a political wonk, but the potential abuses and broad reach that seem impossible to mitigate against effectively make the stated purpose seem an overreach, though I take Janan Ganesh's point in a recent article that the public at large don't generally seem to care about these sorts of issues, rightly or wrongly.
    It's a tough, butusually accepted case, for spooks to have access, to override privacy, and widening that is risky.

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