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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » London might be a Labour city but it has only won the mayor

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  • antifrank said:

    It's also worth noting that Ken Livingstone was more transfer-friendly than Boris Johnson. Something to ponder, I'd say.

    That was in the context of more left-friendly alternatives, surely? And, hilariously, no UKIP candidate on the ballot paper (though it was somewhat prior to the main UKIP surge anyway).
  • Fresh out today, a pro-European take on what Out would look like:

    http://www.policy-network.net/publications/4995/What-would-out-look-like

    It goes into the tedious and mad "no say" question in exhaustive detail. Quite why anyone thinks this is a fruitful line of enquiry is beyond me.
  • Off topic:

    Looks very much like we are entering a "Winter of Discontent." Not just junior doctors but now the police are saying they can't guarantee to police "Rememberance Day" parades! Tax Credits not going away etc, etc.
  • ThomasNasheThomasNashe Posts: 5,331

    I hate not voting, but as an enthusiastic supporter of Heathrow expansion who does in fact live in West London, I just don't see who I could vote for in this election.

    It's a shame the voters aren't getting a good choice on what is a major issue facing London. If capacity is not increased then the city will start to get strangled.

    I read all the Airport Commission's report, and they generally did a good job (you could argue that their remit was wrong, but that's a different matter).
    Yes, the only polling I recall seeing on this had opinion among Londoners as pretty much split. There are certainly vocal opponents, but on the other hand Heathrow is a big employer, to say nothing of the broader economic considerations that you allude to.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 55,046
    Pulpstar said:

    Looks like England aren't going to die wondering.

    Good start.

    If we can be a quick 80 or 90 for Ali overnight that will be a reasonable target for tomorrow.

    Just as I write that Ali takes a ball to the helmet. Looks okay though.
  • antifrank said:

    It's also worth noting that Ken Livingstone was more transfer-friendly than Boris Johnson. Something to ponder, I'd say.

    That was in the context of more left-friendly alternatives, surely? And, hilariously, no UKIP candidate on the ballot paper (though it was somewhat prior to the main UKIP surge anyway).
    "Fresh Start for London" was UKIP.
  • Tissue_PriceTissue_Price Posts: 9,039
    edited November 2015
    antifrank said:

    antifrank said:

    It's also worth noting that Ken Livingstone was more transfer-friendly than Boris Johnson. Something to ponder, I'd say.

    That was in the context of more left-friendly alternatives, surely? And, hilariously, no UKIP candidate on the ballot paper (though it was somewhat prior to the main UKIP surge anyway).
    "Fresh Start for London" was UKIP.
    I know, but did the voters? And even if they did, they might have concluded that a party who couldn't get their own name on the ballot paper might not provide the best choice to run the executive.
  • Zac Goldsmith is pretty EUsceptic. I would expect him to pick up most UKIP second preferences. I can't think of a single reason why any UKIP voters would choose to give any of their preferences to Khan.
    I think London Conservative members made the best choice they could in terms of getting a Conservative elected to as London mayor. However I am not sure that relations between Goldsmith and A Conservative government will be good at all.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 55,046

    I hate not voting, but as an enthusiastic supporter of Heathrow expansion who does in fact live in West London, I just don't see who I could vote for in this election.

    It's a shame the voters aren't getting a good choice on what is a major issue facing London. If capacity is not increased then the city will start to get strangled.

    I read all the Airport Commission's report, and they generally did a good job (you could argue that their remit was wrong, but that's a different matter).
    Yes, the only polling I recall seeing on this had opinion among Londoners as pretty much split. There are certainly vocal opponents, but on the other hand Heathrow is a big employer, to say nothing of the broader economic considerations that you allude to.
    There must be a big gap for a UKIP or indy candidate to stand on an unashamedly pro-Heathrow, pro-City, pro-driverless-Tubes, pro-housebuilding platform, given the views of those standing so far?
  • chestnutchestnut Posts: 7,341
    Welfare...again....snooze.
  • ThomasNasheThomasNashe Posts: 5,331
    Definitely need to retract everything I said about the draw!
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,346

    Off topic:

    Looks very much like we are entering a "Winter of Discontent." Not just junior doctors but now the police are saying they can't guarantee to police "Rememberance Day" parades! Tax Credits not going away etc, etc.

    I don't know about the details of the junior doctors' complaints but their spokesman on the Today programme this morning did his cause no favours.



  • ThomasNasheThomasNashe Posts: 5,331
    Sandpit said:

    I hate not voting, but as an enthusiastic supporter of Heathrow expansion who does in fact live in West London, I just don't see who I could vote for in this election.

    It's a shame the voters aren't getting a good choice on what is a major issue facing London. If capacity is not increased then the city will start to get strangled.

    I read all the Airport Commission's report, and they generally did a good job (you could argue that their remit was wrong, but that's a different matter).
    Yes, the only polling I recall seeing on this had opinion among Londoners as pretty much split. There are certainly vocal opponents, but on the other hand Heathrow is a big employer, to say nothing of the broader economic considerations that you allude to.
    There must be a big gap for a UKIP or indy candidate to stand on an unashamedly pro-Heathrow, pro-City, pro-driverless-Tubes, pro-housebuilding platform, given the views of those standing so far?
    Agree, but wouldn't work if they stood under the UKIP banner.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,422
    Sandpit said:

    I hate not voting, but as an enthusiastic supporter of Heathrow expansion who does in fact live in West London, I just don't see who I could vote for in this election.

    It's a shame the voters aren't getting a good choice on what is a major issue facing London. If capacity is not increased then the city will start to get strangled.

    I read all the Airport Commission's report, and they generally did a good job (you could argue that their remit was wrong, but that's a different matter).
    Yes, the only polling I recall seeing on this had opinion among Londoners as pretty much split. There are certainly vocal opponents, but on the other hand Heathrow is a big employer, to say nothing of the broader economic considerations that you allude to.
    There must be a big gap for a UKIP or indy candidate to stand on an unashamedly pro-Heathrow, pro-City, pro-driverless-Tubes, pro-housebuilding platform, given the views of those standing so far?
    A pro-sense platform ?

    It'll never happen :)

    Zac seems quite pro-housebuilding, think Sadiq is too though.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,422
    Looks like this match will be over before lunch tommorow, one way or the other :)
  • <>

    I don't know about the details of the junior doctors' complaints but their spokesman on the Today programme this morning did his cause no favours.



    None at all. JimNaughtie asked some very straight questions and the guy refused point blank to give any straight answers.

  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,346

    I see the government snoppers charter again under guise as anti-terrorism measures. Fact is any wannabe bedroom Jihadi will soon (if they don't know already) be told how to ensure that ISPs can't see what they are up to online (via the measures announced). It costs $30-40 a year for most services, so not exactly going to stop even impoverished from circumventing this new law.

    If you don't like the idea of the government / ISPs snooping on you anyway, I suggest signing up for a service anyway. It is good for your own privacy, part of general online security strategy (especially when out and about connecting to public wifi) and Brucie bonus of if for instance you like your US telly lets you watch the episodes hosted on the official sites.

    Note:- The spooks can still tap into these secure connections, but that isn't what this new law is about.

    The police spokeswoman this morning was going on and on about how essential all this was to find missing girls. Not a word about terrorism. Like all such proposed measures, it is sold on terrorism and child abuse and is then used to catch people putting their bins out on the wrong day and other trivia. No earthly reason why councils need these powers, for instance. What role do they have in investigating terrorism?


  • chestnutchestnut Posts: 7,341
    "Winter crisis in the NHS" now.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 43,049
    whichever Eagle it is looking at Jezza with less than complete confidence after Cam's HMF response.
  • Pulpstar said:

    Sandpit said:

    I hate not voting, but as an enthusiastic supporter of Heathrow expansion who does in fact live in West London, I just don't see who I could vote for in this election.

    It's a shame the voters aren't getting a good choice on what is a major issue facing London. If capacity is not increased then the city will start to get strangled.

    I read all the Airport Commission's report, and they generally did a good job (you could argue that their remit was wrong, but that's a different matter).
    Yes, the only polling I recall seeing on this had opinion among Londoners as pretty much split. There are certainly vocal opponents, but on the other hand Heathrow is a big employer, to say nothing of the broader economic considerations that you allude to.
    There must be a big gap for a UKIP or indy candidate to stand on an unashamedly pro-Heathrow, pro-City, pro-driverless-Tubes, pro-housebuilding platform, given the views of those standing so far?
    A pro-sense platform ?

    It'll never happen :)

    Zac seems quite pro-housebuilding, think Sadiq is too though.
    Zac had a conversion on the road to Damascus.

    His platform for the nomination barely mentioned housing (not in the top 2/3 issues he campaigned on).

    As soon as he won the nomination he then placed it (sensibly) cetnre stage.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    isam said:

    I'd say almost all UKIP 2nd prefs would go to Zac

    I would also disagree that it is "Asian" communities generally that will go to Sadiq... it is Muslim communities specifically I would think...lumping them all in together is a bit... well

    In my constituency, Hx and Upmnister, UKIP canvassing pre GE15 found quite big support in the Indian community in Emerson Park, I wouldn't think that was the case in the Islamic States of Tower Hamlets and Newham

    A bit... Simplistic?
    TOPPING said:

    antifrank said:

    Sadiq Khan to my mind is justly favourite and I would make him a shorter priced favourite than the markets currently assume. Neither he nor Zac Goldsmith are the big personalities that have previously won the mayoralty, which means that personality is going to be less important than previously.

    As shadsy notes, too many voters don't understand the system and will either not cast a second vote or will cast an entirely pointless second vote. First preferences will probably determine this and first preferences will probably favour the Labour candidate in a city that is firmly trending towards Labour at present, given the lack of strong personality to overcome that general trend.

    Sadiq is not only the favourite but I might vote for him myself. London Mayor has always been a f**k you type of appointment. Ken was super-f**k you and then BoJo in his way was also (f**k you to sensible, measured politics).

    People are allowed the freedom to step out of their usual political loyalties and have a bit of fun.

    OE WUC Zac does not have enough FY quotient to swing it IMO. No matter how many right-on self-funded magazines he presided over.
    I don't know.

    Electing Zac is quite a big FY to Labour in their "Labour City". Such arrogance!
  • ThomasNasheThomasNashe Posts: 5,331
    Cyclefree said:

    Off topic:

    Looks very much like we are entering a "Winter of Discontent." Not just junior doctors but now the police are saying they can't guarantee to police "Rememberance Day" parades! Tax Credits not going away etc, etc.

    I don't know about the details of the junior doctors' complaints but their spokesman on the Today programme this morning did his cause no favours.



    Maybe, but there is no doubt about the level of hostility in the profession. It feels as if Hunt has been taking lessons from Gove in how to 'lose friends and alienate people' with the cack-handed way he's gone about this.
  • Bob__SykesBob__Sykes Posts: 1,179
    Slow start by Cameron, who was being bested by Corbyn's "reasonable man / just answer the question" approach.

    But then it turned ugly. Corbyn got his first proper mauling there.
  • antifrank said:

    Fresh out today, a pro-European take on what Out would look like:

    http://www.policy-network.net/publications/4995/What-would-out-look-like

    It goes into the tedious and mad "no say" question in exhaustive detail. Quite why anyone thinks this is a fruitful line of enquiry is beyond me.

    On the bright side, the next time that the usual suspects come out with nonsense on that subject, we can simply point them to that document, which explains the EEA and Swiss positions very clearly.
  • Cyclefree said:

    Off topic:

    Looks very much like we are entering a "Winter of Discontent." Not just junior doctors but now the police are saying they can't guarantee to police "Rememberance Day" parades! Tax Credits not going away etc, etc.

    I don't know about the details of the junior doctors' complaints but their spokesman on the Today programme this morning did his cause no favours.



    Maybe, but there is no doubt about the level of hostility in the profession. It feels as if Hunt has been taking lessons from Gove in how to 'lose friends and alienate people' with the cack-handed way he's gone about this.
    I'd be interested to know if Hunt was involved in the idea of NHS moving to fully 7 days a week. How on earth is he going to deliver this in the current financial situation?
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,597
    shadsy said:

    Anyone who wants to bet on the First Pref leader NOT winning can now have 8/1 with Ladbrokes.

    Hmm. I feel tempted, for sure, for a small amount perhaps.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,981
    Tom Harris, Labour MP for Glasgow South until the general election:

    "The Labour Party I love is in hock to Trots, Islamists, and woman-hating Twitter trolls
    Jeremy Corbyn and his friends at Stop the War have plunged my party into a living nightmare. And yet, somehow, I can't bring myself to leave"


    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/labour/11974342/The-Labour-Party-I-love-is-in-hock-to-Trots-Islamists-and-woman-hating-Twitter-trolls.html
  • Slow start by Cameron, who was being bested by Corbyn's "reasonable man / just answer the question" approach.

    But then it turned ugly. Corbyn got his first proper mauling there.

    Missed it, what happened?
  • agingjb said:

    I don't know what TTIP means, and don't expect to. Actually I don't know what most acronyms used here mean, and usually quickly forget them.

    Anyway, I'm posting from Firefox; although I usually browse with Safari (Yosemite), posting doesn't work there.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transatlantic_Trade_and_Investment_Partnership

    The Transatlantic Trade and Investment Partnership (TTIP) is a proposed free trade agreement between the European Union and the United States, with the aim of promoting multilateral economic growth.[1] The American government considers the TTIP a companion agreement to the Trans-Pacific Partnership (TPP).[2] After a proposed draft was leaked in March 2014,[3] the European Commission launched a public consultation on a limited set of clauses and in January 2015 published parts of an overview.[4]

    If an agreement is to be made, it is not expected to be finalized before 2016.[5]


  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 43,049
    What on earth do you think is going through Dennis Skinner's mind these days.

    What is the point of him now that virtually the whole front bench can be categorised as awkward squad left-wing firebrands..?
  • watford30watford30 Posts: 3,474

    Cyclefree said:

    Off topic:

    Looks very much like we are entering a "Winter of Discontent." Not just junior doctors but now the police are saying they can't guarantee to police "Rememberance Day" parades! Tax Credits not going away etc, etc.

    I don't know about the details of the junior doctors' complaints but their spokesman on the Today programme this morning did his cause no favours.



    Maybe, but there is no doubt about the level of hostility in the profession. It feels as if Hunt has been taking lessons from Gove in how to 'lose friends and alienate people' with the cack-handed way he's gone about this.
    I'd be interested to know if Hunt was involved in the idea of NHS moving to fully 7 days a week. How on earth is he going to deliver this in the current financial situation?
    Junior Doctors need to stop whining, and provide the service which their patients are paying for, and expecting.

    Imagine the howling if Labour had won in May, and imposed their budget on the NHS.
  • chestnutchestnut Posts: 7,341

    Slow start by Cameron, who was being bested by Corbyn's "reasonable man / just answer the question" approach.

    But then it turned ugly. Corbyn got his first proper mauling there.

    It's time Cameron mentioned the close to £1000 a month tax credit/child benefit figure for someone with two children.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,597
    edited November 2015
    The header misses the vital point that if Labour lose again in what is, with good reason, regarded as a Labour city, it would be bloody hilarious, and so should be supported by all those who don't much care who is elected in London. The shock and confusion, the anger at the suburbs (presumably) winning it for the Tories again. A great spectacle to see I qwould hope.

    In the interests of balance I'd consider what a similarly hilarious Tory failure would be, but it's hard given their strengths are not in big, high profile locations like cities. But somehow contriving to lose a rural seat in the SE to Labour would be pretty amusing.
  • antifrank said:

    antifrank said:

    It's also worth noting that Ken Livingstone was more transfer-friendly than Boris Johnson. Something to ponder, I'd say.

    That was in the context of more left-friendly alternatives, surely? And, hilariously, no UKIP candidate on the ballot paper (though it was somewhat prior to the main UKIP surge anyway).
    "Fresh Start for London" was UKIP.
    Get fresh for the weekend
    Showing out
    Showing out

    :)
  • watford30watford30 Posts: 3,474
    edited November 2015
    chestnut said:

    "Winter crisis in the NHS" now.

    Lefties praying for a cold spell, and plenty of extra deaths to use as a political stick. Nasty.
  • Andy_JS said:

    Tom Harris, Labour MP for Glasgow South until the general election:

    "The Labour Party I love is in hock to Trots, Islamists, and woman-hating Twitter trolls
    Jeremy Corbyn and his friends at Stop the War have plunged my party into a living nightmare. And yet, somehow, I can't bring myself to leave"

    Shame, Tom Harris was one of only a handful of Labour MPs I had time for.
  • antifrank said:

    Fresh out today, a pro-European take on what Out would look like:

    http://www.policy-network.net/publications/4995/What-would-out-look-like

    It goes into the tedious and mad "no say" question in exhaustive detail. Quite why anyone thinks this is a fruitful line of enquiry is beyond me.

    That looks like a paper that's started with a conclusion and looked for the evidence to me.

    For an alternative view - try Open Europe:

    http://openeurope.org.uk/intelligence/britain-and-the-eu/what-if-there-were-a-brexit/

    "The most comprehensive study of UK withdrawal from the EU, drawing on detailed economic modelling to assess the impact of different Brexit scenarios.

    Concluding that the existing ‘Norwegian’ and ‘Swiss’ models of EU association are not suitable for the UK post-Brexit, this report examines how they could be adapted to Britain’s unique circumstances.

    This report concludes that the economic impact of Brexit is not as clear cut in either direction as most previous analyses have suggested. Instead it will depend on a number of tough decisions in the UK and Europe. This includes whether the EU itself will embrace reform and whether UK politicians and voters are willing to Britain into the deregulated, free trading economy it would need to become outside the EU."
  • AnorakAnorak Posts: 6,621

    antifrank said:

    Fresh out today, a pro-European take on what Out would look like:

    http://www.policy-network.net/publications/4995/What-would-out-look-like

    It goes into the tedious and mad "no say" question in exhaustive detail. Quite why anyone thinks this is a fruitful line of enquiry is beyond me.

    On the bright side, the next time that the usual suspects come out with nonsense on that subject, we can simply point them to that document, which explains the EEA and Swiss positions very clearly.
    I'm sure the Policy Network will be branded quisling puppets of the EU who clearly don't understand the treaties, and who are basically pushing out lie-filled propaganda.
  • Andy_JS said:

    Tom Harris, Labour MP for Glasgow South until the general election:

    "The Labour Party I love is in hock to Trots, Islamists, and woman-hating Twitter trolls
    Jeremy Corbyn and his friends at Stop the War have plunged my party into a living nightmare. And yet, somehow, I can't bring myself to leave"


    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/labour/11974342/The-Labour-Party-I-love-is-in-hock-to-Trots-Islamists-and-woman-hating-Twitter-trolls.html

    Labour need to have these moderate voices calling out their nonsense.
  • chestnutchestnut Posts: 7,341
    watford30 said:

    chestnut said:

    "Winter crisis in the NHS" now.

    Lefties praying for a cold spell, and plenty of extra deaths to use as a political stick. Nasty.
    The worst thing is the utter predictability of everything they say. Welfare cuts, NHS - a bit of identity politics is usually the icing.

    They never say anything creative, innovative or progressive in the truest sense of the term.

    Everything is so utterly conservative and stuck in the last century.
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,736
    PM replies he thinks the NHS has "the resources it needs" ahead of winter

    Why is it £2bn in deficit before we reach winter?
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,736
    Kevin MaguireVerified account ‏@Kevin_Maguire 17m17 minutes ago
    Cameron's answers on the NHS would shame a pissed student
  • antifrank said:

    Fresh out today, a pro-European take on what Out would look like:

    http://www.policy-network.net/publications/4995/What-would-out-look-like

    It goes into the tedious and mad "no say" question in exhaustive detail. Quite why anyone thinks this is a fruitful line of enquiry is beyond me.

    On the bright side, the next time that the usual suspects come out with nonsense on that subject, we can simply point them to that document, which explains the EEA and Swiss positions very clearly.
    I'm sure that signposting them to a paper co-authored by Labour's Shadow Minister for Europe will indeed be a slam-dunk.
  • antifrank said:

    antifrank said:

    It's also worth noting that Ken Livingstone was more transfer-friendly than Boris Johnson. Something to ponder, I'd say.

    That was in the context of more left-friendly alternatives, surely? And, hilariously, no UKIP candidate on the ballot paper (though it was somewhat prior to the main UKIP surge anyway).
    "Fresh Start for London" was UKIP.
    Get fresh for the weekend
    Showing out
    Showing out

    :)
    They ain't ever gonna be respectable.
  • chestnutchestnut Posts: 7,341
    edited November 2015
    If the NHS still isn't working after all this money, it's time to abolish most of it, surely?
  • Mr. Owls, one fears Kevin 'attending in a personal capacity' Maguire is not necessarily an objective witness.

    There are issues about NHS resourcing but a lot of them revolve around demographic change (both the rising life expectancy and people living unhealthily).
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,422

    PM replies he thinks the NHS has "the resources it needs" ahead of winter

    Why is it £2bn in deficit before we reach winter?

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/University_Hospital_Coventry

    The hospital cost £440 million to build, but Projectco is guaranteed an income of £3.3 billion over 30 years, including facilities contracts.

    Nice work if you can get it.
  • runnymederunnymede Posts: 2,536
    I'm sure that signposting them to a paper co-authored by Labour's Shadow Minister for Europe will indeed be a slam-dunk.

    Desperate stuff when 'Tories' starting quoting a Mandelson/Blair thinktank as gospel
  • watford30watford30 Posts: 3,474
    edited November 2015

    PM replies he thinks the NHS has "the resources it needs" ahead of winter

    Why is it £2bn in deficit before we reach winter?

    Mismanagement, poor budgeting, paying the over inflated salaries of those who retired and now charge massive consulting fees, pensions, immigration, expensive and unnecessary treatments, health tourism etc etc etc

    Public healthcare can never have enough. The NHS could consume every penny you gave it, and more.
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,736
    chestnut said:

    If the NHS still isn't working after all this money, it's time to abolish most of it, surely?

    I think you have cottoned on, well done.

    I repeat PM replies he thinks the NHS has "the resources it needs" ahead of winter

    Why is it £2bn in deficit before we reach winter?

    How is it magically going to turn this around?
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 55,046
    There goes Ali. Back to #8 for him.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,981
    edited November 2015
    O/T: As usual England's reviewing is less than optimum. 34/1.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,422
    edited November 2015
    Betfair price on Pakistan has dropped again !

    Seems like...
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,533

    Andy_JS said:

    Tom Harris, Labour MP for Glasgow South until the general election:

    "The Labour Party I love is in hock to Trots, Islamists, and woman-hating Twitter trolls
    Jeremy Corbyn and his friends at Stop the War have plunged my party into a living nightmare. And yet, somehow, I can't bring myself to leave"

    Shame, Tom Harris was one of only a handful of Labour MPs I had time for.
    He was absolute crap at doing anything for his constituents. Self seeking halfwit.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 55,046
    Andy_JS said:

    O/T: As usual England's reviewing is less than optimum. 34/1.

    Luckily Pakistan's reviewing is no better.
  • AnorakAnorak Posts: 6,621
    edited November 2015
    runnymede said:

    I'm sure that signposting them to a paper co-authored by Labour's Shadow Minister for Europe will indeed be a slam-dunk.

    Desperate stuff when 'Tories' starting quoting a Mandelson/Blair thinktank as gospel

    Almost all genuine authorities on the EU and the correct interpretation of the various treaties and agreements have historical involvement with European institutions. You see, that's how they became authorities. Branding every single one of them as biased and/or tools of the Commission is a little pathetic and makes it look as if Leave has an unappealing, paranoid, bunker mentality.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,597
    Sandpit said:

    There goes Ali. Back to #8 for him.

    Honestly, I like Ali as a batsman, but it seemed odd he was considered for the role of opener, which requires more than being handy with the bat, as his style was totally wrong for it. I even get hoping for a cut down version of Steve Smith, brought in as a spinner but transformed into a batsman, but even Steve Smith doesn't open, lots of world class batsmen don't have the right skill or temperament for opening.
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,736
    PM says NHS has "the resources it needs" ahead of winter.Why is it £2bn in deficit before winter?Hows it magically going to turn round?

    Anyone prepared to tell me how?
  • chestnutchestnut Posts: 7,341



    I think you have cottoned on, well done.

    I repeat PM replies he thinks the NHS has "the resources it needs" ahead of winter

    Why is it £2bn in deficit before we reach winter?

    How is it magically going to turn this around?

    It won't. It's a vast, money-sucking service that some people treat as a religion.

    Every year we are told 'its in crisis' by the same people who then tell us 'it's the envy of the world'.

    The reality is that it is a moderate (no more, no less) service where people appreciate the absence of any direct bill.
  • blackburn63blackburn63 Posts: 4,492
    watford30 said:

    PM replies he thinks the NHS has "the resources it needs" ahead of winter

    Why is it £2bn in deficit before we reach winter?

    Mismanagement, poor budgeting, paying the over inflated salaries of those who retired and now charge massive consulting fees, pensions, immigration, expensive and unnecessary treatments, health tourism etc etc etc

    Public healthcare can never have enough. The NHS could consume every penny you gave it, and more.
    Spot on, plenty of managers on massive salaries will find a way of spunking any money you chuck at it.

  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 55,046
    edited November 2015

    PM says NHS has "the resources it needs" ahead of winter.Why is it £2bn in deficit before winter?Hows it magically going to turn round?

    Anyone prepared to tell me how?

    Because it's paying out too much in poor value PFI deals, too much in administration and too much in pensions to people who will spend more of their expected life retired than they did working.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,422

    watford30 said:

    PM replies he thinks the NHS has "the resources it needs" ahead of winter

    Why is it £2bn in deficit before we reach winter?

    Mismanagement, poor budgeting, paying the over inflated salaries of those who retired and now charge massive consulting fees, pensions, immigration, expensive and unnecessary treatments, health tourism etc etc etc

    Public healthcare can never have enough. The NHS could consume every penny you gave it, and more.
    Spot on, plenty of managers on massive salaries will find a way of spunking any money you chuck at it.

    The "budget" system massively discourages underspend.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 55,046
    Bell end walking now. Quack quack.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 55,046
    kle4 said:

    Sandpit said:

    There goes Ali. Back to #8 for him.

    Honestly, I like Ali as a batsman, but it seemed odd he was considered for the role of opener, which requires more than being handy with the bat, as his style was totally wrong for it. I even get hoping for a cut down version of Steve Smith, brought in as a spinner but transformed into a batsman, but even Steve Smith doesn't open, lots of world class batsmen don't have the right skill or temperament for opening.
    Ali was great as a lower middle order batsmen, it's good to have depth with the bat in the side, and motivating that someone can appear late in the innings and knock a quick 30 or so. Why they thought that qualified him to open I'll never know.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,597
    edited November 2015
    chestnut said:



    I think you have cottoned on, well done.

    I repeat PM replies he thinks the NHS has "the resources it needs" ahead of winter

    Why is it £2bn in deficit before we reach winter?

    How is it magically going to turn this around?

    It won't. It's a vast, money-sucking service that some people treat as a religion.

    Every year we are told 'its in crisis' by the same people who then tell us 'it's the envy of the world'.

    This is the key for me. Compared to other areas it has been protected financially but to judge from reports it has been slashed to the bone for 5+ years and will continue to do so, but we simply cannot afford the solution to that which is ramping up spending massively and never ever ever making any significant cutbacks because no matter how much is spent it will collapse imminently if a penny is not spent somewhere.

    I wish I had a solution, it is not an easy issue, but it seems a service with no plan other than throwing money at it, and at gut level that seems like something which papers over the cracks but doesn't fix anything. Besides, that what's we do with charities run by deluded fantasists, not the health service I'd hope.

    I think PB has turned me right wing (inasmuch as is possible withinthe nonsense concepts of left and right) in some respects these past few years, I tend to have a lot less sympathy for some things than I used to (as we all know right wingers lack sympathy of course).
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    Who is the Saffer commentator on Sky...sounds quite English, is it Compton? or Trott?
  • taffystaffys Posts: 9,753
    The reality is that it is a moderate (no more, no less) service where people appreciate the absence of any direct bill.

    I think it is true that we spend less on health than many comparable nations...???
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,736
    edited November 2015
    Sandpit said:

    PM says NHS has "the resources it needs" ahead of winter.Why is it £2bn in deficit before winter?Hows it magically going to turn round?

    Anyone prepared to tell me how?

    Because it's paying out too much in poor value PFI deals, too much in administration and too much in pensions to people who will spend more of their expected life retired than they did working.
    Poor attempt 1/10

    80% of Trusts in deficit have no PFI scheme.

    Lowest Admin costs amongst major health systems

    Hows it magically going to turn round?

    Dave says it has all the resources it needs

    Any better answers?
  • The Policy Network document really is exceptionally clear on the EEA and Swiss models - by far the best summary of how the two models work that I've ever seen.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 43,538
    A section on DP about virtue signalling.

    It's that time of year again, and I've given money to poppy sellers but refused a poppy in return. Is the demand that people wear poppies just virtue signalling writ large?

    (runs for cover)
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 55,046
    edited November 2015
    kle4 said:

    chestnut said:



    I think you have cottoned on, well done.

    I repeat PM replies he thinks the NHS has "the resources it needs" ahead of winter

    Why is it £2bn in deficit before we reach winter?

    How is it magically going to turn this around?

    It won't. It's a vast, money-sucking service that some people treat as a religion.

    Every year we are told 'its in crisis' by the same people who then tell us 'it's the envy of the world'.

    This is the key for me. Compared to other areas it has been protected financially but to judge from reports it has been slashed to the bone for 5+ years and will continue to do so, but we simply cannot afford the solution to that which is ramping up spending massively and never ever ever making any significant cutbacks because no matter how much is spent it will collapse imminently if a penny is not spent somewhere.

    I wish I had a solution, it is not an easy issue, but it seems a service with no plan other than throwing money at it, and at gut level that seems like something which papers over the cracks but doesn't fix anything. Besides, that what's we do with charities run by deluded fantasists, not the health service I'd hope.
    Introducing tax relief on private healthcare premiums from companies and individuals - up to 40% rate - would go a good way toward reducing demand. The NHS as currently constructed will eat any money that goes in, then beg for more. There's a good reason that almost nowhere else in the world uses the same monolithic system run by politicians.
  • RazedabodeRazedabode Posts: 3,034
    The NHS is such a political minefield, how anyone manages to traverse it I'll never know. More money is never enough money, which can only leave reform. But you can't really reform it because people and staff won't let it be reformed (e.g. the whole nhs is a religion thing), or the whole privatisation argument will kick off again.

    Oh, and I thought PMQs was awful, from both teams. However, as Corbyn needs to start making traction I'll say it was a worse performance for him. Labour have resorted to their political comfort ground of welfare and the NHS. Can see no difference from Miliband, except that Corbyn is worse.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    PM says NHS has "the resources it needs" ahead of winter.Why is it £2bn in deficit before winter?Hows it magically going to turn round?

    Anyone prepared to tell me how?

    Do you think that it could be spending more than it needs?
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    edited November 2015

    A section on DP about virtue signalling.

    It's that time of year again, and I've given money to poppy sellers but refused a poppy in return. Is the demand that people wear poppies just virtue signalling writ large?

    (runs for cover)

    Dominic Sandbrook wrote about it in todays Mail

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-3302873/I-m-proud-wear-one-t-bear-poppy-fascists-vilify-choose-not-writes-DOMINIC-SANDBROOK.html

    Hitchens wrote a v similar article on Sunday

    http://hitchensblog.mailonsunday.co.uk/2015/11/do-we-have-to-wear-poppies-.html


    A Curb Your Enthusiasm episode "The Anonymous Donor" is quite good look at virtue signalling +1!
  • chestnutchestnut Posts: 7,341

    Lowest Admin costs amongst major health systems

    12th out of 12 on mortality.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,422
    taffys said:

    The reality is that it is a moderate (no more, no less) service where people appreciate the absence of any direct bill.

    I think it is true that we spend less on health than many comparable nations...???

    Certainly our system is better than the USA, where they spend 14% of cash (7% private; 7% state I think) on healthcare - but the pseudoprivatisation of parts of the NHS has just ended up costing alot of money. All for Brown's great "off balance sheet" exercise.

    The value of even a £20k/year index linked pension when equivalised to the cost you'd need to buy it from a direct contribution annuity at the age of 55 must be way over a million quid though.
  • AnorakAnorak Posts: 6,621
    Sandpit said:

    kle4 said:

    chestnut said:



    I think you have cottoned on, well done.

    I repeat PM replies he thinks the NHS has "the resources it needs" ahead of winter

    Why is it £2bn in deficit before we reach winter?

    How is it magically going to turn this around?

    It won't. It's a vast, money-sucking service that some people treat as a religion.

    Every year we are told 'its in crisis' by the same people who then tell us 'it's the envy of the world'.

    This is the key for me. Compared to other areas it has been protected financially but to judge from reports it has been slashed to the bone for 5+ years and will continue to do so, but we simply cannot afford the solution to that which is ramping up spending massively and never ever ever making any significant cutbacks because no matter how much is spent it will collapse imminently if a penny is not spent somewhere.

    I wish I had a solution, it is not an easy issue, but it seems a service with no plan other than throwing money at it, and at gut level that seems like something which papers over the cracks but doesn't fix anything. Besides, that what's we do with charities run by deluded fantasists, not the health service I'd hope.
    The NHS as currently constructed will eat any money that goes in, then beg for more. There's a good reason that almost nowhere else in the world uses the same monolithic system run by politicians.
    You must be wrong. They're very, very, very, very, very envious of our system. Twitter told me.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,346

    Cyclefree said:

    Off topic:

    Looks very much like we are entering a "Winter of Discontent." Not just junior doctors but now the police are saying they can't guarantee to police "Rememberance Day" parades! Tax Credits not going away etc, etc.

    I don't know about the details of the junior doctors' complaints but their spokesman on the Today programme this morning did his cause no favours.



    Maybe, but there is no doubt about the level of hostility in the profession. It feels as if Hunt has been taking lessons from Gove in how to 'lose friends and alienate people' with the cack-handed way he's gone about this.
    That may be so and as I said before I don't know the details but Hunt was very calm and smooth when interviewed on the same programme and doctors always seem pissed off with Ministers. They moaned about Ken Clarke and Patricia Hewitt and Lansley and pretty much everyone. So it becomes hard for the ordinary person to distinguish between real complaints and generalised moaning about any change.

    All I remember from this morning's exchange was that doctors were being offered an 11% pay rise in return for something or other to do with weekend working. 11%! It didn't immediately strike me as akin to transportation to the Gulag.

    As I say, I don't know the details but the junior doctors' spokesman needs to brush up on his communications skills because if your answer to the question: "Will you meet the Minister?" is a rant rather than "yes" I would suggest you risk losing your audience's sympathy.

  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 124,095
    It will be close but I expect Khan to win, London voted Labour in May and Khan is ruthless and will get out the ethnic vote. Goldsmith also lacks the charisma of Boris and his appeal to white van man although he will win LD and Green preferences he is unlikely to win many from UKIP despite his euroscepticism
  • watford30watford30 Posts: 3,474

    Sandpit said:

    PM says NHS has "the resources it needs" ahead of winter.Why is it £2bn in deficit before winter?Hows it magically going to turn round?

    Anyone prepared to tell me how?

    Because it's paying out too much in poor value PFI deals, too much in administration and too much in pensions to people who will spend more of their expected life retired than they did working.
    Poor attempt 1/10

    80% of Trusts in deficit have no PFI scheme.

    Lowest Admin costs amongst major health systems

    Hows it magically going to turn round?

    Dave says it has all the resources it needs

    Any better answers?
    Let the bankrupt trusts go under, and replace them. Why keep them going?
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,736
    Charles said:

    PM says NHS has "the resources it needs" ahead of winter.Why is it £2bn in deficit before winter?Hows it magically going to turn round?

    Anyone prepared to tell me how?

    Do you think that it could be spending more than it needs?
    So how will that improve in next few weeks if true?

    Dave says it has enough resources perhaps an 11% pay rise will save money?
  • taffystaffys Posts: 9,753
    Any better answers?

    Perhaps we should turn to Labour-run Wales for answers. Then again perhaps not.
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,736
    Pulpstar said:

    watford30 said:

    PM replies he thinks the NHS has "the resources it needs" ahead of winter

    Why is it £2bn in deficit before we reach winter?

    Mismanagement, poor budgeting, paying the over inflated salaries of those who retired and now charge massive consulting fees, pensions, immigration, expensive and unnecessary treatments, health tourism etc etc etc

    Public healthcare can never have enough. The NHS could consume every penny you gave it, and more.
    Spot on, plenty of managers on massive salaries will find a way of spunking any money you chuck at it.

    The "budget" system massively discourages underspend.
    Does it encourage a £4bn overspend as well?
  • watford30watford30 Posts: 3,474
    edited November 2015
    Pulpstar said:

    taffys said:

    The reality is that it is a moderate (no more, no less) service where people appreciate the absence of any direct bill.

    I think it is true that we spend less on health than many comparable nations...???

    The value of even a £20k/year index linked pension when equivalised to the cost you'd need to buy it from a direct contribution annuity at the age of 55 must be way over a million quid though.
    And there's one of the key problems. Early retirees sucking the system dry over 3 or 4 decades, whilst continually sniping and whining from the sidelines.
  • notmenotme Posts: 3,293

    The NHS is such a political minefield, how anyone manages to traverse it I'll never know. More money is never enough money, which can only leave reform. But you can't really reform it because people and staff won't let it be reformed (e.g. the whole nhs is a religion thing), or the whole privatisation argument will kick off again.

    Oh, and I thought PMQs was awful, from both teams. However, as Corbyn needs to start making traction I'll say it was a worse performance for him. Labour have resorted to their political comfort ground of welfare and the NHS. Can see no difference from Miliband, except that Corbyn is worse.

    Every single reform i can think of has been claimed to be 'privatisation', even when the reforms involved truckloads of cash.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    Charles said:

    PM says NHS has "the resources it needs" ahead of winter.Why is it £2bn in deficit before winter?Hows it magically going to turn round?

    Anyone prepared to tell me how?

    Do you think that it could be spending more than it needs?
    So how will that improve in next few weeks if true?

    Dave says it has enough resources perhaps an 11% pay rise will save money?
    Resources it needs =/= resources it wants.

    From what I vaguely hear on the radio, 11% pay rise offsets the cost of eliminating higher pay rates for weekend work, etc. That's surely a better approach.

    Fundamentally, the NHS needs to be made much more responsive to patient needs and to be much more focused on patient outcomes vs a money-in measure.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 43,049

    A section on DP about virtue signalling.

    It's that time of year again, and I've given money to poppy sellers but refused a poppy in return. Is the demand that people wear poppies just virtue signalling writ large?

    (runs for cover)

    and apart from the linked articles, there are several pieces by eg. Jon Snow, Charlene White, etc who refuse to wear one because it preferences one charity over another.

    All very valid and if I were to think about it (big effort) I would say that a poppy represents (or has come to represent) both a national existential struggle and the ultimate sacrifice. You are saying you support those who go to fight so you can stay free (forget current conflicts where that line is none too clear).

    So by wearing it you are also engaging in national solidarity and acceptance that we are a unitary nation which is prepared to fight for the values we hold dear.

    It is still virtue signalling after a fashion but it is also a shortcut to illustrate your, our value system. Not so bad given the various assaults on that system from one group or another.

  • The Policy Network document really is exceptionally clear on the EEA and Swiss models - by far the best summary of how the two models work that I've ever seen.

    No. The Open Europe summary is better.
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,736
    watford30 said:



    Pulpstar said:

    taffys said:

    The reality is that it is a moderate (no more, no less) service where people appreciate the absence of any direct bill.

    I think it is true that we spend less on health than many comparable nations...???

    The value of even a £20k/year index linked pension when equivalised to the cost you'd need to buy it from a direct contribution annuity at the age of 55 must be way over a million quid though.
    And there's one of the key problems. Early retirees sucking the system dry over 3 or 4 decades, whilst continually sniping and whining from the sidelines.
    So Cameron was wrong to say the NHS has enough resources for winter.

    But right to name call the questioner

    Thanks
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,736
    watford30 said:



    Pulpstar said:

    taffys said:

    The reality is that it is a moderate (no more, no less) service where people appreciate the absence of any direct bill.

    I think it is true that we spend less on health than many comparable nations...???

    The value of even a £20k/year index linked pension when equivalised to the cost you'd need to buy it from a direct contribution annuity at the age of 55 must be way over a million quid though.
    And there's one of the key problems. Early retirees sucking the system dry over 3 or 4 decades, whilst continually sniping and whining from the sidelines.
    You a pensioner?
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,736
    Charles said:

    Charles said:

    PM says NHS has "the resources it needs" ahead of winter.Why is it £2bn in deficit before winter?Hows it magically going to turn round?

    Anyone prepared to tell me how?

    Do you think that it could be spending more than it needs?
    So how will that improve in next few weeks if true?

    Dave says it has enough resources perhaps an 11% pay rise will save money?
    Resources it needs =/= resources it wants.

    From what I vaguely hear on the radio, 11% pay rise offsets the cost of eliminating higher pay rates for weekend work, etc. That's surely a better approach.

    Fundamentally, the NHS needs to be made much more responsive to patient needs and to be much more focused on patient outcomes vs a money-in measure.
    How is the Government going to make that happen and stop both outcomes and finances deteriorating fast.
  • The Policy Network document really is exceptionally clear on the EEA and Swiss models - by far the best summary of how the two models work that I've ever seen.

    No. The Open Europe summary is better.
    They've produced a number of documents - do you mean this one?

    http://openeurope.org.uk/intelligence/britain-and-the-eu/what-if-there-were-a-brexit/
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 55,046
    edited November 2015
    Key partnership here between Cook and Root. If they can put on 80 or 100 for the next wicket then we've got a match tomorrow. Eng at 4/1 on Betfair looks value.
  • Anorak said:

    runnymede said:

    I'm sure that signposting them to a paper co-authored by Labour's Shadow Minister for Europe will indeed be a slam-dunk.

    Desperate stuff when 'Tories' starting quoting a Mandelson/Blair thinktank as gospel

    Almost all genuine authorities on the EU and the correct interpretation of the various treaties and agreements have historical involvement with European institutions. You see, that's how they became authorities. Branding every single one of them as biased and/or tools of the Commission is a little pathetic and makes it look as if Leave has an unappealing, paranoid, bunker mentality.

    I don't think there's anything paranoid about questioning the objectivity of an organisation which has published a report into the costs of Brexit when that organisation is partly funded by the European commission and various of its offshoots and when the work of that organisation has been endorsed by Herman van Rompuy, president of the European Council.

    "Policy Network received funding from Lord Sainsbury of Turville and from organisations: the Barrow Cadbury Trust; European Commission; Friedrich Ebert Stiftung (FES); the Foundation of European Progressive Studies; the Samuel Lindow Foundation; Solidar; British Private Equity and Venture Capital Association; Google; the City of London Corporation; and the European Commission Representation in the United Kingdom."

    http://www.policy-network.net/content/342/about us







  • Tissue_PriceTissue_Price Posts: 9,039
    edited November 2015
    TOPPING said:

    A section on DP about virtue signalling.

    It's that time of year again, and I've given money to poppy sellers but refused a poppy in return. Is the demand that people wear poppies just virtue signalling writ large?

    (runs for cover)

    and apart from the linked articles, there are several pieces by eg. Jon Snow, Charlene White, etc who refuse to wear one because it preferences one charity over another.

    All very valid and if I were to think about it (big effort) I would say that a poppy represents (or has come to represent) both a national existential struggle and the ultimate sacrifice. You are saying you support those who go to fight so you can stay free (forget current conflicts where that line is none too clear).

    So by wearing it you are also engaging in national solidarity and acceptance that we are a unitary nation which is prepared to fight for the values we hold dear.

    It is still virtue signalling after a fashion but it is also a shortcut to illustrate your, our value system. Not so bad given the various assaults on that system from one group or another.

    Paying for a poppy is not virtue signalling, by definition - you've sacrificed something to make a statement; whereas virtue signalling costs nothing. Demanding that others wear (or don't wear) poppies probably is.
  • chestnutchestnut Posts: 7,341
    £2bn is peanuts in a service that costs sixty times that.

    Half decent management should be able to save that without breaking sweat.


  • The Policy Network document really is exceptionally clear on the EEA and Swiss models - by far the best summary of how the two models work that I've ever seen.

    No. The Open Europe summary is better.
    They've produced a number of documents - do you mean this one?

    http://openeurope.org.uk/intelligence/britain-and-the-eu/what-if-there-were-a-brexit/
    Yes. It's the one I linked to downthread.

    Very balanced and goes through each of our export sectors, models and economic impacts in turn.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,422
    Sandpit said:

    Key partnership here between Cook and Root. If they can put on 80 or 100 for the next wicket then we've got a match tomorrow. Eng at 4/1 on Betfair looks value.

    I've swapped my green 6.95 number on Pakistan for a bigger 23 number on England so I hope you're right :)
  • chestnut said:

    £2bn is peanuts in a service that costs sixty times that.

    Half decent management should be able to save that without breaking sweat.


    Chicken-feed, surely! (hat-tip Boris)
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    Sandpit said:

    Key partnership here between Cook and Root. If they can put on 80 or 100 for the next wicket then we've got a match tomorrow. Eng at 4/1 on Betfair looks value.

    This has been a great series hasn't it? People complain about slow run rate but every match has gone to the final day with at least two results possible
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