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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » London might be a Labour city but it has only won the mayor

SystemSystem Posts: 11,687
edited November 2015 in General

imagepoliticalbetting.com » Blog Archive » London might be a Labour city but it has only won the mayoralty once

One of the biggest UK political battles and what will certainly be a big political betting event will be next year’s race for the London will between Zac Goldsmith for the Blues and Sadiq Khan for the Reds.

Read the full story here


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Comments

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    JEOJEO Posts: 3,656
    I think Goldsmith's environmental credentials will spread beyond the Green vote. A lot of people in London worry about the high pollution levels and what it is doing to their health. His push to pedestrianise more of central London along the Covent Garden/Trafalgar Square baiss is also quite attractive. And then there's Heathrow, of course, which will win a lot of votes across West London.
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    Plato_SaysPlato_Says Posts: 11,822
    I'm glad I don't have a vote in London - I don't like any of them. I think Zac is using the Tory Party as a flag of convenience for his political career.

    And the less said the better about Saqid and his racial quotas.
    JEO said:

    I think Goldsmith's environmental credentials will spread beyond the Green vote. A lot of people in London worry about the high pollution levels and what it is doing to their health. His push to pedestrianise more of central London along the Covent Garden/Trafalgar Square baiss is also quite attractive. And then there's Heathrow, of course, which will win a lot of votes across West London.

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    chestnutchestnut Posts: 7,341
    "Sadiq could pick up significant extra support from the capital’s large Asian communities "

    It's likely to be more nuanced than this, with religion and national ancestry having some bearing on just how open the different parts of the 'Asian' community are to Khan.

    "A big unknown is what’ll happen to the UKIP vote"

    They'll vote for Goldsmith to stop Khan.
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    isamisam Posts: 40,931
    edited November 2015
    I'd say almost all UKIP 2nd prefs would go to Zac

    I would also disagree that it is "Asian" communities generally that will go to Sadiq... it is Muslim communities specifically I would think...lumping them all in together is a bit... well

    In my constituency, Hx and Upmnister, UKIP canvassing pre GE15 found quite big support in the Indian community in Emerson Park, I wouldn't think that was the case in the Islamic States of Tower Hamlets and Newham
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    JEO said:

    I think Goldsmith's environmental credentials will spread beyond the Green vote. A lot of people in London worry about the high pollution levels and what it is doing to their health. His push to pedestrianise more of central London along the Covent Garden/Trafalgar Square baiss is also quite attractive. And then there's Heathrow, of course, which will win a lot of votes across West London.

    Isn't the Government supposed to be making a decision about airports next month? What if they do in fact opt for Heathrow?
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    JEOJEO Posts: 3,656

    I'm glad I don't have a vote in London - I don't like any of them. I think Zac is using the Tory Party as a flag of convenience for his political career.

    And the less said the better about Saqid and his racial quotas.

    JEO said:

    I think Goldsmith's environmental credentials will spread beyond the Green vote. A lot of people in London worry about the high pollution levels and what it is doing to their health. His push to pedestrianise more of central London along the Covent Garden/Trafalgar Square baiss is also quite attractive. And then there's Heathrow, of course, which will win a lot of votes across West London.

    The worst bit about Khan's ethnic quota argument is when he said white people would like it, because there would be less crime as a result. The implication being that black people commit crime if they don't get special treatment in the jobs market.
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    Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 26,684
    edited November 2015
    My guess is Sadiq Khan will get about 45% in the first round and then receive very few transfers. LDs, Greens and UKIP supporters will all prefer Zac Goldsmith as their second choice.
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    Plato_SaysPlato_Says Posts: 11,822
    edited November 2015
    Does Zac get some background credit for his dad's Referendum Party work re Kippers?
    Andy_JS said:

    My guess is Sadiq Khan will get about 45% in the first round and then receive very few transfers. LDs, Greens and UKIP supporters will all prefer Zac Goldsmith as their second choice.

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    LennonLennon Posts: 1,733
    Andy_JS said:

    My guess is Sadiq Khan will get about 45% in the first round and then receive very few transfers. LDs, Greens and UKIP supporters will all prefer Zac Goldsmith as their second choice.

    Is there any betting possibility on the person leading on 1st preferences not going on to win? (If it happened, would be the first time that 2nd preferences were significant I believe)
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    notmenotme Posts: 3,293
    JEO said:

    I think Goldsmith's environmental credentials will spread beyond the Green vote. A lot of people in London worry about the high pollution levels and what it is doing to their health. His push to pedestrianise more of central London along the Covent Garden/Trafalgar Square baiss is also quite attractive. And then there's Heathrow, of course, which will win a lot of votes across West London.

    Pollution levels across the UK have dropped like a stone over the last thirty years, in many cases barely a tenth of the levels.
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    Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 26,684
    Plato: I'm not sure whether many voters will remember that far back.
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    Plato_SaysPlato_Says Posts: 11,822
    What's happened to your kitty avatar? I didn't recognise you for a moment there.
    Andy_JS said:

    Plato: I'm not sure whether many voters will remember that far back.

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    Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,820
    edited November 2015
    I think it will be a close contest, but on balance I think Zac should be slight favourite, for the reason Mike gives: this is all about reaching out beyond the core vote, and Zac looks better placed in that respect.

    Heathrow is of course a major wildcard in this: those voters for whom this is the principal issue are more likely to be convinced by Zac's position than Sadiq's, because Sadiq's opposition to Heathrow expansion looks purely opportunistic. On the other hand, if and when the government announces that it accepts the Davies recommendation, the intensity of the row is going to eclipse anything we've seen since 2010, and that introduces some considerable unpredictability because of the political fallout.
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    CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    isam said:

    I'd say almost all UKIP 2nd prefs would go to Zac

    I would also disagree that it is "Asian" communities generally that will go to Sadiq... it is Muslim communities specifically I would think...lumping them all in together is a bit... well

    In my constituency, Hx and Upmnister, UKIP canvassing pre GE15 found quite big support in the Indian community in Emerson Park, I wouldn't think that was the case in the Islamic States of Tower Hamlets and Newham

    A bit... Simplistic?
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    Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 26,684
    edited November 2015

    What's happened to your kitty avatar? I didn't recognise you for a moment there.

    Andy_JS said:

    Plato: I'm not sure whether many voters will remember that far back.

    I just logged on with a different browser and for some reason it's disappeared. You still can't log on to PB with Safari despite it being the main browser for Apple Mac computers, which is one of the problems I've been having.
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    Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 26,684
    Charles said:

    isam said:

    I'd say almost all UKIP 2nd prefs would go to Zac

    I would also disagree that it is "Asian" communities generally that will go to Sadiq... it is Muslim communities specifically I would think...lumping them all in together is a bit... well

    In my constituency, Hx and Upmnister, UKIP canvassing pre GE15 found quite big support in the Indian community in Emerson Park, I wouldn't think that was the case in the Islamic States of Tower Hamlets and Newham

    A bit... Simplistic?
    I thought Isam's post was the opposite of simplistic...
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    shadsyshadsy Posts: 289
    I agree with the points about the Asian vote being much less predictable than Mike suggests. I think a lot of Tories are rather hopeful that they'll be able to win a lot of the non-Muslim vote in that respect.

    I think the odds on the first round leader NOT winning are probably longer than most people expect; a large number of voters just don't realise how this works. IIRC, under half of all voters who went with a candidate other than Boris or Ken as a 1st pref actually used a 2nd pref to vote for Boris or Ken in 2012. They either didn't bother or picked another no-hoper.

    I don't have a stat to back this up, but I believe it is very rare for 2nd prefs to overturn the 1st round leader with this system. I can recall a Doncaster Mayoral vote and Prescott losing a PCC election. It's going to have to be very, very close in the first round for it to happen.
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    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,308
    I am pretty much with Plato on this one. Zac is not the sort of Tory that floats my boat. If I was in London I would probably end up voting for him given the alternatives presently available.

    If someone independent and willing to recognise the urgency and importance of Heathrow expansion to London and indeed to the UK generally was standing I would be seriously tempted. As Mike says party loyalty is less important for the Mayoralty but no one should underestimate how much organisation is going to be necessary to get a campaign running. I reckon if we haven't had such a candidate come forward by the end of this month it will be too late.
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    AnorakAnorak Posts: 6,621
    edited November 2015

    I think it will be a close contest, but on balance I think Zac should be slight favourite, for the reason Mike gives: this is all about reaching out beyond the core vote, and Zac looks better placed in that respect.

    Heathrow is of course a major wildcard in this: those voters for whom this is the principal issue are more likely to be convinced by Zac's position than Sadiq's, because Sadiq's opposition to Heathrow expansion looks purely opportunistic. On the other hand, if and when the government announces that it accepts the Davies recommendation, the intensity of the row is going to eclipse anything we've seen since 2010, and that introduces some considerable unpredictability because of the political fallout.

    Given the inbound referendum brouhaha, I do wonder if the government will bottle the Heathrow recommendation, and select Gatwick instead. It's a much simpler, cheaper, more environmentally friendly option which impacts an order of magnitude less local residents. Shame it doesn't deliver the same national economic benefits.
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    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,929
    edited November 2015
    300 up. The tail is wagging !

    England's spinners are 195-1. For a third innings on a live pitch, that's just not good enough.
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    notmenotme Posts: 3,293
    Andy_JS said:

    What's happened to your kitty avatar? I didn't recognise you for a moment there.

    Andy_JS said:

    Plato: I'm not sure whether many voters will remember that far back.

    I just logged on with a different browser and for some reason it's disappeared. You still can't log on to PB with Safari despite it being the main browser for Apple Mac computers, which is one of the problems I've been having.
    I can barely log in with firefox. It does a weird thing where it requires you to sign in multiple times to stop a large green vertical bar appearing on the left hand side.
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    JonathanDJonathanD Posts: 2,400
    notme said:

    JEO said:

    I think Goldsmith's environmental credentials will spread beyond the Green vote. A lot of people in London worry about the high pollution levels and what it is doing to their health. His push to pedestrianise more of central London along the Covent Garden/Trafalgar Square baiss is also quite attractive. And then there's Heathrow, of course, which will win a lot of votes across West London.

    Pollution levels across the UK have dropped like a stone over the last thirty years, in many cases barely a tenth of the levels.
    People are still bothered by it however, and there are questions as to whether the finer particulate pollution is actually more harmful than the larger stuff that has been eliminated.

    Having kids changed my view on this as I've suddenly become much more aware of vehicle fumes and more sympathetic to trying to reduce them.



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    isamisam Posts: 40,931
    Charles said:

    isam said:

    I'd say almost all UKIP 2nd prefs would go to Zac

    I would also disagree that it is "Asian" communities generally that will go to Sadiq... it is Muslim communities specifically I would think...lumping them all in together is a bit... well

    In my constituency, Hx and Upmnister, UKIP canvassing pre GE15 found quite big support in the Indian community in Emerson Park, I wouldn't think that was the case in the Islamic States of Tower Hamlets and Newham

    A bit... Simplistic?
    That's it! :)
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    Plato_SaysPlato_Says Posts: 11,822
    edited November 2015
    Lasts longer than a life peerage, I suppose

    Vatican’s bill for sainthood is €750,000, corruption book reveals http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/news/world/europe/article4603857.ece
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    Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,820
    edited November 2015
    Anorak said:

    Given the inbound referendum brouhaha, I do wonder if the government will bottle the Heathrow recommendation, and select Gatwick instead. It's a much simpler, cheaper, more environmentally friendly option which impacts an order of magnitude less local residents. Shame it doesn't deliver the same national economic benefits.

    Extremely unlikely: going against the recommendation of the independent commission they set up would be very hard. I suspect that they might keep the option open in addition to Heathrow, however.

    Incidentally, Gatwick is in some considerable trouble locally. They changed the flight patterns a couple of years ago, without telling anyone, and then for some incomprehensible reason lied to residents and MPs, claiming that they hadn't changed anything. The effect of the changes was to greatly narrow the approach routes, so some residents in places like Crowborough are experiencing horrendous disturbance, which (unlike at Heathrow) continues all night. People affected are very, very angry. Belatedly, Gatwick seems to have woken up to the PR disaster and have commissioned consultants to try to sort out the mess.
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    JEOJEO Posts: 3,656
    notme said:

    JEO said:

    I think Goldsmith's environmental credentials will spread beyond the Green vote. A lot of people in London worry about the high pollution levels and what it is doing to their health. His push to pedestrianise more of central London along the Covent Garden/Trafalgar Square baiss is also quite attractive. And then there's Heathrow, of course, which will win a lot of votes across West London.

    Pollution levels across the UK have dropped like a stone over the last thirty years, in many cases barely a tenth of the levels.
    I'm not sure that's true in London. Even if it is, it does not mean pollution is at an acceptable level. I certainly notice the difference in air quality in central London.
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    isamisam Posts: 40,931
    shadsy said:

    I agree with the points about the Asian vote being much less predictable than Mike suggests. I think a lot of Tories are rather hopeful that they'll be able to win a lot of the non-Muslim vote in that respect.

    I think the odds on the first round leader NOT winning are probably longer than most people expect; a large number of voters just don't realise how this works. IIRC, under half of all voters who went with a candidate other than Boris or Ken as a 1st pref actually used a 2nd pref to vote for Boris or Ken in 2012. They either didn't bother or picked another no-hoper.

    I don't have a stat to back this up, but I believe it is very rare for 2nd prefs to overturn the 1st round leader with this system. I can recall a Doncaster Mayoral vote and Prescott losing a PCC election. It's going to have to be very, very close in the first round for it to happen.

    Agreed re 2nd pref understanding..I am quite into politics but still don't completely feel safe voting for UKIP 1st pref in case my vote doesn't work properly and Sadiq Khan wins

    That said I want Peter Whittle to do well
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    JEOJEO Posts: 3,656
    JonathanD said:

    notme said:

    JEO said:

    I think Goldsmith's environmental credentials will spread beyond the Green vote. A lot of people in London worry about the high pollution levels and what it is doing to their health. His push to pedestrianise more of central London along the Covent Garden/Trafalgar Square baiss is also quite attractive. And then there's Heathrow, of course, which will win a lot of votes across West London.

    Pollution levels across the UK have dropped like a stone over the last thirty years, in many cases barely a tenth of the levels.
    People are still bothered by it however, and there are questions as to whether the finer particulate pollution is actually more harmful than the larger stuff that has been eliminated.

    Having kids changed my view on this as I've suddenly become much more aware of vehicle fumes and more sympathetic to trying to reduce them.
    We moved out of London when we had children. The commute is harder, but I couldn't justify the increased asthma risk for them, or the decline in life expectancy.
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    Lasts longer than a life peerage, I suppose

    Vatican’s bill for sainthood is €750,000, corruption book reveals

    Yeah but the expenses aren't so favourable.
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    I've run the numbers before:

    http://imgur.com/p7INg8L

    This is what I said about them:

    "Livingstone went into the London Mayoral and Assembly elections in 2012 carrying a commanding lead in London-only voting intention polls – something like 16%. Whilst a significant number of Londoners used the opportunity to vote Green, or for one of London’s independents, Labour still recorded a strong result in the assembly elections. Livingstone, as we know, missed out.

    The data suggests that Johnson’s victory was all the more remarkable. Livingstone failed to capture the votes of people who were not only prepared to vote Labour – and would do so in 2015 – but actually voted Labour that day in 2012, just on a different ballot paper. The above suggests that Livingstone missed out on 5% or so of votes which would have seen him over the line (the allocation of 2nd preferences being marginally in Livingstone’s favour).

    Polling at the time showed this effect was contributed to by both the relative popularity of Boris (and satisfaction with the job he was doing as Mayor) and the unpopularity of Livingstone, even among Labour voters. Forced choice questions put Johnson consistently ahead even as the Conservatives trailed miserably in the polls.

    Few people would consider the above history lesson controversial, but it does not appear to have been properly factored in to how people view the upcoming 2016 contest. Sadiq Khan does not have the baggage among Labour voters that Livingstone did, nor does Goldsmith having the seemingly inexplicable personal support of Johnson. Neither does he have the track record that Johnson had in 2012 of four years in post – his political career has barely begun.

    Equally some of that polling support Livingstone enjoyed has been hardened into a general election result which saw Labour make a healthy four gains from the Conservatives, as well as a strong set of Assembly results in 2012 to add into the mix.

    Goldsmith will need to work hard to create an advantage to rival that of his predecessor as Conservative candidate. The opportunities are out there for him to exploit, but they are not yet in hand.

    Khan will almost certainly have about the same advantage in voting intention to Livingstone – but I wouldn’t bet on him missing the opportunity as much as his predecessor."
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    Plato_SaysPlato_Says Posts: 11,822
    Do relics attract IHT?

    Lasts longer than a life peerage, I suppose

    Vatican’s bill for sainthood is €750,000, corruption book reveals

    Yeah but the expenses aren't so favourable.
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    BarnesianBarnesian Posts: 7,995
    Zac and UKIP are strongly anti TTIP. Khan is pro TTIP. It might tip the balance.
    Most people still don't know what TTIP is - but they will.
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    Mr. Rabbit, those are good points.

    Whilst personally disgusted by Khan's ethnic quotas, unless that gets more coverage it won't sink in and affect the vote (to his disadvantage).
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    notme said:



    I just logged on with a different browser and for some reason it's disappeared. You still can't log on to PB with Safari despite it being the main browser for Apple Mac computers, which is one of the problems I've been having.

    I can barely log in with firefox. It does a weird thing where it requires you to sign in multiple times to stop a large green vertical bar appearing on the left hand side.

    You don't need to login a 2nd time to get rid of the vertical bar - just refresh the page.

    The vertical bar is caused by vanilla reloading the whole page inside its section of the page when you login.
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    JEOJEO Posts: 3,656
    edited November 2015


    Equally some of that polling support Livingstone enjoyed has been hardened into a general election result which saw Labour make a healthy four gains from the Conservatives, as well as a strong set of Assembly results in 2012 to add into the mix.

    That's not support hardening. That's the electorate changing to become ever more immigrant-heavy. In a decade or two, it will be near impossible for a Conservative to win in London, as it's near impossible for a Republican to win in New York.
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    isamisam Posts: 40,931
    Pepsi could sue here I reckon.. What a misleading headline!!!

    https://twitter.com/dailymailuk/status/661850149333901312
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    AnorakAnorak Posts: 6,621

    Anorak said:

    Given the inbound referendum brouhaha, I do wonder if the government will bottle the Heathrow recommendation, and select Gatwick instead. It's a much simpler, cheaper, more environmentally friendly option which impacts an order of magnitude less local residents. Shame it doesn't deliver the same national economic benefits.

    Extremely unlikely: going against the recommendation of the independent commission they set up would be very hard. I suspect that they might keep the option open in addition to Heathrow, however.

    Incidentally, Gatwick is in some considerable trouble locally. They changed the flight patterns a couple of years ago, without telling anyone, and then for some incomprehensible reason lied to residents and MPs, claiming that they hadn't changed anything. The effect of the changes was to greatly narrow the approach routes, so some residents in places like Crowborough are experiencing horrendous disturbance, which (unlike at Heathrow) continues all night. People affected are very, very angry. Belatedly, Gatwick seems to have woken up to the PR disaster and have commissioned consultants to try to sort out the mess.
    You're right, probably. The long grass must look tempting, but they'd look cowardly after all this time, the commission, etc.

    Incidentally I have worked for Gatwick as a consultant, looking at future flight paths and the noise implications. Sorry to hear that they've dropped such an avoidable clanger.

    Knowing them, I'd view it as cock-up followed by panicked arse-covering, rather than a conspiracy.
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    Andy_JS said:

    What's happened to your kitty avatar? I didn't recognise you for a moment there.

    Andy_JS said:

    Plato: I'm not sure whether many voters will remember that far back.

    I just logged on with a different browser and for some reason it's disappeared. You still can't log on to PB with Safari despite it being the main browser for Apple Mac computers, which is one of the problems I've been having.
    I'm logged in via Safari on a macbook pro running El Capitain...

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    JEO said:


    Equally some of that polling support Livingstone enjoyed has been hardened into a general election result which saw Labour make a healthy four gains from the Conservatives, as well as a strong set of Assembly results in 2012 to add into the mix.

    That's not support hardening. That's the electorate changing to become ever more immigrant-heavy. In a decade or two, it will be near impossible for a Conservative to win in London, as it's near impossible for a Republican to win in New York.
    The point I was seeking to make is that until people put "x"s on ballot papers, their support is soft. People with a history of voting Labour are less likely to change their minds.

    But I accept there might be a new cohort also shaping the equation (but it would reinforce the point being made, if anything).
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    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,929
    edited November 2015
    @isam Sensationalist no doubt, but Fluoxetine and caffeine must be quite a common drug combo...

    Oh hold on 'She added: "I knew she drank vodka, but I didn’t know exactly how much." ' barely mentioned...
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    isamisam Posts: 40,931
    Pulpstar said:

    @isam Sensationalist no doubt, but Fluoxetine and caffeine must be quite a common drug combo...

    Bottle of vodka a day plus anti depressants and they blame it on Pepsi Max???
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    Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,820
    edited November 2015
    Anorak said:

    Knowing them, I'd view it as cock-up followed by panicked arse-covering, rather than a conspiracy.

    Yes I think it was. The explanation for their misleading statements seems to be that they hadn't in formal terms changed the approach paths, they had simply chosen to concentrate the flights in the centres of them. The distinction, needless to say, is not one which has gone down well with those affected.
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    CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,214
    FPT for Roger

    "From a personal point of view 1.Ease of movement 2. Ease of working 3. Ease of living 4.Knowing that all European countries have common standards so unlike Turkey or Egypt (For example) I know I won't get poisoned by drinking the water 5. A feeling of community and shared values 6. All the individual cultural quirks of dozens of diverse and brilliant countries 7. A wonderful mix of nationalities and languages working in dozens of glorious cities etc

    I have a horrible feeling that too many here just don't go away enough to see and enjoy those delights"

    I share all these. Having lived abroad, with Italian as my mother tongue & 3 other languages & not English at all, I resent the idea that those who are sceptical about the EU's current political, organizational state & its current trajectory are somehow ignorant or dismissive of the delights you describe.

    So:

    1. Ease of movement. Yes - a good thing, generally. But not without costs. It's what those costs are, whether they outweigh the good, on whom they fall and how they can be mitigated which needs addressing. People from the UK and Ireland travelled round Europe before 1973 and it was really rather easy. I know because I spent much of my young life on trains travelling between all the members of my family in Europe.

    2. Ease of working. Yes. See also 1.

    3. Ease of living. Not sure what you mean by this. What has the EU to do with this? What makes it easy to live in another country is a desire to integrate fully into it and speak the language.

    4. In theory, yes. In practice, no. Italy was in the EU when in the 1970's Naples had real problems with its water supply - the water came out brown from the taps and you had to let it run for quite a while before using it. Huge fun for us children. Less so for my mother, I imagine. The EU has done sod all to lessen the corruption and control by criminal gangs such as the Mafia. If you think the treatment of rubbish in Campania is of the same standard as in Camden, you need your head examining.

    5. Shared European values existed before the EU and will exist after it is long gone. I worry that the EU's rather reductive view of what it means to be European will be more likely to damage European values. Values don't come from bureaucrats and they are not imposed by diktats.

    7. Agreed - but just repeats 1 & 2.

    I think one of the glories of Europe is the immense variety within its countries, the fact that when you are in Naples you are there and could not think that you were in any other city, that it is as different to Venice as Barrow is to Munich. I hate the flattening out of differences, such as you see in many English cities where the high streets are all the same, and I think that the desire for uniformity, for tidiness by bureaucrats needs to be resisted.

    Vive la difference!
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    England fielding and spinning = Labour front bench
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    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,929
    isam said:

    Pulpstar said:

    @isam Sensationalist no doubt, but Fluoxetine and caffeine must be quite a common drug combo...

    Bottle of vodka a day plus anti depressants and they blame it on Pepsi Max???
    It'll be the vodka. Barely mentioned, I actually missed it when I read it.
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    Plato_SaysPlato_Says Posts: 11,822
    My liver hurts just reading that combination.
    isam said:

    Pulpstar said:

    @isam Sensationalist no doubt, but Fluoxetine and caffeine must be quite a common drug combo...

    Bottle of vodka a day plus anti depressants and they blame it on Pepsi Max???
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    Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 26,684
    O/T:

    Theodore Dalrymple:

    "The other day I found myself somewhere in which the nearest pub was the only place within easy reach in which to have dinner. It was in suburban Tudor style, and the first thing one noticed on entering were the flashing lights of fruit machines, closely followed by the numerous large flat screens disposed in such a way that it was almost impossible to escape them. It was if one had an absolute duty to watch, and as if a malign state had installed them with cameras in order to check that one was being amused.

    There was a small mercy, however: at least all the screens were showing the same thing - a football match, football being now a 24-hour activity. I have been in pubs of many screens in which each showed something different and one felt that one's brain was being put through a food mixer."


    http://www.salisburyreview.com/Tony_blogs/fat.html
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    shadsyshadsy Posts: 289
    Anyone who wants to bet on the First Pref leader NOT winning can now have 8/1 with Ladbrokes.
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    isamisam Posts: 40,931
    Pulpstar said:

    isam said:

    Pulpstar said:

    @isam Sensationalist no doubt, but Fluoxetine and caffeine must be quite a common drug combo...

    Bottle of vodka a day plus anti depressants and they blame it on Pepsi Max???
    It'll be the vodka. Barely mentioned, I actually missed it when I read it.

    My liver hurts just reading that combination.

    isam said:

    Pulpstar said:

    @isam Sensationalist no doubt, but Fluoxetine and caffeine must be quite a common drug combo...

    Bottle of vodka a day plus anti depressants and they blame it on Pepsi Max???
    Reminds me of this!

    http://youtu.be/EhyrjbvDHT8
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    shadsy said:

    Anyone who wants to bet on the First Pref leader NOT winning can now have 8/1 with Ladbrokes.

    Previous results show two things:

    Minor parties do badly even in the first round. The mayoralty race itself encourages a "squeeze", clearly. (Perhaps a lesson in AV would help.)

    Transfers in the second round show a relatively small differential. I haven't calculated what proportion even give a second preference, may check this later.

    I reckon you're money's safe Shadsy.
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    Sadiq Khan to my mind is justly favourite and I would make him a shorter priced favourite than the markets currently assume. Neither he nor Zac Goldsmith are the big personalities that have previously won the mayoralty, which means that personality is going to be less important than previously.

    As shadsy notes, too many voters don't understand the system and will either not cast a second vote or will cast an entirely pointless second vote. First preferences will probably determine this and first preferences will probably favour the Labour candidate in a city that is firmly trending towards Labour at present, given the lack of strong personality to overcome that general trend.
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    Pulpstar said:

    isam said:

    Pulpstar said:

    @isam Sensationalist no doubt, but Fluoxetine and caffeine must be quite a common drug combo...

    Bottle of vodka a day plus anti depressants and they blame it on Pepsi Max???
    It'll be the vodka. Barely mentioned, I actually missed it when I read it.
    To best of my knowledge it is extremely rare to overdose on SSRIs (of which Fluoxetine is one). That's one of the reasons they are so popular with doctors compared to older meds.
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    AnorakAnorak Posts: 6,621
    edited November 2015

    Anorak said:

    Knowing them, I'd view it as cock-up followed by panicked arse-covering, rather than a conspiracy.

    Yes I think it was. The explanation for their misleading statements seems to be that they hadn't in formal terms changed the approach paths, they had simply chosen to concentrate the flights in the centres of them. The distinction, needless to say, is not one which has gone down well with those affected.
    Naive. Probably correct in 'legal' terms, but inadequate when managing the [very well-informed and activist] local residents.

    EDIT: The concentration probably allowed them to reduce the noise contours, but at the expense of the unlucky few in the middle!
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    Anorak said:

    Anorak said:

    Knowing them, I'd view it as cock-up followed by panicked arse-covering, rather than a conspiracy.

    Yes I think it was. The explanation for their misleading statements seems to be that they hadn't in formal terms changed the approach paths, they had simply chosen to concentrate the flights in the centres of them. The distinction, needless to say, is not one which has gone down well with those affected.
    Naive. Probably correct in 'legal' terms, but inadequate when managing the [very well-informed and activist] local residents.

    EDIT: The concentration probably allowed them to reduce the noise contours, but at the expense of the unlucky few in the middle!
    Probably reduced the number of houses affected, which looks good.
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    Barnesian said:

    Zac and UKIP are strongly anti TTIP. Khan is pro TTIP. It might tip the balance.
    Most people still don't know what TTIP is - but they will.

    I'm not sure how much difference does it make - it's not like the Mayor has to sign off on TTIP, or has any role in implementing or ignoring it.
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    TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 41,314
    Andy_JS said:

    O/T:

    Theodore Dalrymple:

    "The other day I found myself somewhere in which the nearest pub was the only place within easy reach in which to have dinner. It was in suburban Tudor style, and the first thing one noticed on entering were the flashing lights of fruit machines, closely followed by the numerous large flat screens disposed in such a way that it was almost impossible to escape them. It was if one had an absolute duty to watch, and as if a malign state had installed them with cameras in order to check that one was being amused.

    There was a small mercy, however: at least all the screens were showing the same thing - a football match, football being now a 24-hour activity. I have been in pubs of many screens in which each showed something different and one felt that one's brain was being put through a food mixer."


    http://www.salisburyreview.com/Tony_blogs/fat.html

    what a tosser.
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    @Anorak - It sounds as though you have expertise in this - do you mind if I send you a Vanilla mail with a technical question about what is possible?
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    AnorakAnorak Posts: 6,621

    @Anorak - It sounds as though you have expertise in this - do you mind if I send you a Vanilla mail with a technical question about what is possible?

    Of course. No promises on a full and complete answer though!
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    shadsyshadsy Posts: 289
    Just thinking through what the odds should be on which candidate will finish 3rd. Tricky, as I can see all of LDs, Greens, Galloway & UKIP getting 3-5%
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    TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 41,314
    antifrank said:

    Sadiq Khan to my mind is justly favourite and I would make him a shorter priced favourite than the markets currently assume. Neither he nor Zac Goldsmith are the big personalities that have previously won the mayoralty, which means that personality is going to be less important than previously.

    As shadsy notes, too many voters don't understand the system and will either not cast a second vote or will cast an entirely pointless second vote. First preferences will probably determine this and first preferences will probably favour the Labour candidate in a city that is firmly trending towards Labour at present, given the lack of strong personality to overcome that general trend.

    Sadiq is not only the favourite but I might vote for him myself. London Mayor has always been a f**k you type of appointment. Ken was super-f**k you and then BoJo in his way was also (f**k you to sensible, measured politics).

    People are allowed the freedom to step out of their usual political loyalties and have a bit of fun.

    OE WUC Zac does not have enough FY quotient to swing it IMO. No matter how many right-on self-funded magazines he presided over.
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    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,929
    How much will "trader" let me have on Khan at 10-11 with Hills...
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    PongPong Posts: 4,693
    Pulpstar said:

    @isam Sensationalist no doubt, but Fluoxetine and caffeine must be quite a common drug combo...

    Oh hold on 'She added: "I knew she drank vodka, but I didn’t know exactly how much." ' barely mentioned...

    SSRI's + large amounts of alcohol = very high risk.

    The Pepsi max element is just DM clickbait.
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    AnorakAnorak Posts: 6,621
    Amusing cricket statistic from the End/Pak match: Pakistan's odd-numbered batsmen have compiled 290 runs this innings; the even-numbered batsmen have added 29.
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    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,898
    shadsy said:

    Anyone who wants to bet on the First Pref leader NOT winning can now have 8/1 with Ladbrokes.

    That's not bad IF one assumes that people understand the system and use it rationally.

    I'm not sure that's happened before with regard to transfers, when people like @isam suggest ignoring the system and voting for Zac over Sadiq on the first vote the value of the bet quickly disappears.
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    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,898
    edited November 2015
    Anorak said:

    Amusing cricket statistic from the End/Pak match: Pakistan's odd-numbered batsmen have compiled 290 runs this innings; the even-numbered batsmen have added 29.

    That's funny. With the target now passing 250 and a couple of wickets left, it's probably worth starting to lay the draw.

    Unfortunately I had a meeting rescheduled for tomorrow so won't be there, that's good reason to expect a fantastic day's cricket!
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    Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    edited November 2015
    Pong said:

    Pulpstar said:

    @isam Sensationalist no doubt, but Fluoxetine and caffeine must be quite a common drug combo...

    Oh hold on 'She added: "I knew she drank vodka, but I didn’t know exactly how much." ' barely mentioned...

    SSRI's + large amounts of alcohol = very high risk.

    The Pepsi max element is just DM clickbait.
    Is it? The report says the secondary issue to the drugs was the caffeine not the alcohol. If caffeine was not the contributory factor then there is a lot wrong in that article. If caffeine was relevant then the headline is ridiculous still but paying attention to the Pepsi Max as part of the issue is less so.

    Caffeine needs to be taken seriously. I love my coffee but restrict my caffeine intake (at a high but not too high level).
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    Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 26,684
    shadsy said:

    Anyone who wants to bet on the First Pref leader NOT winning can now have 8/1 with Ladbrokes.

    I'm surprised by those odds which are quite tempting IMO.
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    This is how the electoral system worked last time:

    http://www.londonelects.org.uk/download/file/fid/512

    Nearly 20% of voters only voted for one candidate.

    Note that Siobhan Benita, Carlos Cortliglia, Jenny Jones, Brian Paddick and Lawrence Webb all received more second preference votes than first preference votes. In a system where only the top two get to have second preference votes count for them and in a race where it was abundantly clear from a long way out that the top two were going to be Boris Johnson and Ken Livingstone, this shows an awful lot of voter ignorance.

    It's also worth noting that Ken Livingstone was more transfer-friendly than Boris Johnson. Something to ponder, I'd say.
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    ThomasNasheThomasNashe Posts: 4,980
    I hate not voting, but as an enthusiastic supporter of Heathrow expansion who does in fact live in West London, I just don't see who I could vote for in this election.
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    Mr. Nashe, surely there's another party that support expansion?

    Failing that, you could spoil your ballot. Or write-in 'Morris Dancer'.

    [I am aware write-ins don't count in the UK, but as I've already received a write-in to be Governor of California, I thought I might add to my democratic portfolio].
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    Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,820
    edited November 2015
    antifrank said:

    This is how the electoral system worked last time:

    http://www.londonelects.org.uk/download/file/fid/512

    Nearly 20% of voters only voted for one candidate..

    And 213,471 (about 10%) put the same candidate for both first and second pref.

    (I'm not sure, incidentally, that this, or putting a no-hoper as a second pref, necessarily indicates ignorance of how the system works: it might simply be voters honestly giving their first and second prefs, which is after all the question asked).
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    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,929
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    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,929

    antifrank said:

    This is how the electoral system worked last time:

    http://www.londonelects.org.uk/download/file/fid/512

    Nearly 20% of voters only voted for one candidate..

    And 213,471 (about 10%) put the same candidate for both first and second pref.

    (I'm not sure, incidentally, that this, or putting a no-hoper as a second pref, necessarily indicates ignorance of how the system works: it might simply be voters honestly giving their first and second prefs, which is after all the question asked).
    It's how I used my PCC vote !
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    ThomasNasheThomasNashe Posts: 4,980
    edited November 2015
    MD. Fwiw, the LD is also against. Benita may stand again - I guess she sees that there might be an opportunity for a candidate in favour of expansion, but realistically she'll have no chance.
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    LennonLennon Posts: 1,733

    antifrank said:

    This is how the electoral system worked last time:

    http://www.londonelects.org.uk/download/file/fid/512

    Nearly 20% of voters only voted for one candidate..

    And 213,471 (about 10%) put the same candidate for both first and second pref.

    (I'm not sure, incidentally, that this, or putting a no-hoper as a second pref, necessarily indicates ignorance of how the system works: it might simply be voters honestly giving their first and second prefs, which is after all the question asked).
    Indeed - What 'should' a genuine 1st preference Boris voter do with their 2nd preference? Clearly it's not going to be meaningful for anything or counted at all - so presumably you either 2nd preference Boris as well (just to be sure), or don't use it, or vote (eg) the Independant as a way of saying 'don't support you, but well done for standing' (or whatever)
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    dr_spyndr_spyn Posts: 11,288
    Drifts in the wind, no controls, no clear destination, and that's just a balloon.

    https://twitter.com/BrianSpanner1/status/661862352661438464
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    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,898
    edited November 2015
    The Pakistan tail is wagging a little, we really need to get these two out quickly to have any chance. Target 281 and rising.

    Edit: Got the bugger! One more to go :smiley:
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    Dr. Spyn, there's nothing cushy about life in the Women's Auxiliary Balloon Corps!
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    I don't know what TTIP means, and don't expect to. Actually I don't know what most acronyms used here mean, and usually quickly forget them.

    Anyway, I'm posting from Firefox; although I usually browse with Safari (Yosemite), posting doesn't work there.
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    Mr. JB, it's an acronym for a trade deal that's very secretive (I believe its details won't be disclosed for years) between the US and EU. Lots of people, including those on the left generally pro-EU, are concerned about it.
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    Sandpit said:

    The Pakistan tail is wagging a little, we really need to get these two out quickly to have any chance. Target 281 and rising.

    Edit: Got the bugger! One more to go :smiley:

    9 down
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    ThomasNasheThomasNashe Posts: 4,980
    Pakistan 60%, draw 20%, England 20% I'd say.
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    Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 26,684
    Does anyone know what UKIP policy is on the Snooper's Charter?
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    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,898
    Pakistan 355ao. Target 283 from 113 overs. Game on!
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    Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 26,684
    Pakistan 1.78 / 1.8
    England 2.48 / 2.52
    Draw 23 / 25

    https://www.betfair.com/exchange/cricket/event?id=27539568
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    JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 39,035

    I hate not voting, but as an enthusiastic supporter of Heathrow expansion who does in fact live in West London, I just don't see who I could vote for in this election.

    It's a shame the voters aren't getting a good choice on what is a major issue facing London. If capacity is not increased then the city will start to get strangled.

    I read all the Airport Commission's report, and they generally did a good job (you could argue that their remit was wrong, but that's a different matter).
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    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,929

    Pakistan 60%, draw 20%, England 20% I'd say.

    Can I lay the draw with you :) ? £20 to lose £100
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    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,898
    Andy_JS said:

    Pakistan 1.78 / 1.8
    England 2.48 / 2.52
    Draw 23 / 25

    https://www.betfair.com/exchange/cricket/event?id=27539568

    The draw was 6.5 to lay half an hour ago!
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    JEOJEO Posts: 3,656

    antifrank said:

    This is how the electoral system worked last time:

    http://www.londonelects.org.uk/download/file/fid/512

    Nearly 20% of voters only voted for one candidate..

    And 213,471 (about 10%) put the same candidate for both first and second pref.

    (I'm not sure, incidentally, that this, or putting a no-hoper as a second pref, necessarily indicates ignorance of how the system works: it might simply be voters honestly giving their first and second prefs, which is after all the question asked).
    Putting Ken first and Boris second, or vice versa, could also be considered a "wasted vote", but could also be honest, as you say.
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    ThomasNasheThomasNashe Posts: 4,980
    Pulpstar said:

    Pakistan 60%, draw 20%, England 20% I'd say.

    Can I lay the draw with you :) ? £20 to lose £100
    No! Posted in haste (though I still feel it's a possibility - slow pitch, England playing defensively ...)
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    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,929
    Alistair Cook getting off to a slow and steady start could bring the draw in a bit...
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    FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,285
    edited November 2015
    I see the government snoppers charter again under guise as anti-terrorism measures. Fact is any wannabe bedroom Jihadi will soon (if they don't know already) be told how to ensure that ISPs can't see what they are up to online (via the measures announced). It costs $30-40 a year for most services, so not exactly going to stop even impoverished from circumventing this new law.

    If you don't like the idea of the government / ISPs snooping on you anyway, I suggest signing up for a service anyway. It is good for your own privacy, part of general online security strategy (especially when out and about connecting to public wifi) and Brucie bonus of if for instance you like your US telly lets you watch the episodes hosted on the official sites.

    Note:- The spooks can still tap into these secure connections, but that isn't what this new law is about.
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    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,987
    edited November 2015
    Mr. Urquhart, whilst not as obnoxious as before, I share your dislike of the proposed measures.

    Edited extra bit: that is to say, the measures aren't as obnoxious as before :pensive:

    I, of course, am as obnoxious as ever.
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    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,929
    Ali to Ali !
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    dr_spyndr_spyn Posts: 11,288
    I'm unimpressed by May's latest attempt to gather more private data, passing on costs to firms & consumers, using the same arguments as that bloody fool Jacqui Smith.

    Perhaps in order to save time just copy her Westminster address into all emails.
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    antifrank said:

    This is how the electoral system worked last time:

    http://www.londonelects.org.uk/download/file/fid/512

    Nearly 20% of voters only voted for one candidate.

    Note that Siobhan Benita, Carlos Cortliglia, Jenny Jones, Brian Paddick and Lawrence Webb all received more second preference votes than first preference votes. In a system where only the top two get to have second preference votes count for them and in a race where it was abundantly clear from a long way out that the top two were going to be Boris Johnson and Ken Livingstone, this shows an awful lot of voter ignorance.

    It's also worth noting that Ken Livingstone was more transfer-friendly than Boris Johnson. Something to ponder, I'd say.

    Clearly, the answer is AV.
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    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,929
    Looks like England aren't going to die wondering.

    Good start.
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    Lamine Diack, the former head of the IAAF, is under formal investigation by French prosecutors as part of a corruption inquiry.
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