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Just talked yourself into backing Assad surely? Or would you prefer the state that will rise up in his absence?Cyclefree said:
And our cringing response was roundly criticised on here by many of us, including me.TGOHF said:
We had a flag at half mast when one of them croaked it.JEO said:
When has David Cameron called them his friends? Did he call them honoured citizens and castigate the press for denigrating them? Maybe he lobbied for them to be appointed to the board of British universities?JWisemann said:Of course we know who Cameron does consider a friend - the Saudis, responsible for 90% of extremism in the Muslim world.
Let's stop this ridiculous whataboutery: there are varieties of Islamic extremism - the Saudi-inspired variety, that sponsored by Iran, IS, the Shia lot, the Sunni lot, the lot in Nigeria, the other lot in Somalia, some other group in Yemen, the Al-this-that-and the other brigades - many varieties of those , Al Qaeda, Muslim Brotherhood etc etc and they all fight each other at various times and argue over who is the truer Muslim. It's the narcissism of small differences. It is utterly delusional to think that because Group A hates Group B, which we currently don't like, they are somehow on our side in anything other than a short-term "pact with the devil" sense.
And you know what? In the end what they all want is some ghastly Islamic state which utterly rejects the West and Western values and liberalism and democracy and freedom and tolerance. And there will be no space in this state of theirs - whether it is one big state or a load of smaller states - for any of these things or for anyone who does not subscribe to their view of Islam let alone for anyone who is not Muslim. And such an entity will be both unstable and aggressive - as places such as Saudi Arabia already are. And as history teaches us.
They are all in utter opposition to us. We should have no truck with them. Or as little as realpolitic will allow. We certainly should not be calling them our friends. And we certainly should not be inviting large numbers of people from the territory where these groups and their ideas were born and grow and develop into our countries.
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Quite. More than we need nuclear submarines.flightpath01 said:
We need more drones and we need more satellites and communications to control them and we need more intelligence assets like communications monitoring and we need more special forces. The requirements of our armed forces are changing.richardDodd said:What we need are more drones..we have the gonads and lotsa targets...tine to stop f*cking about..
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Excuse me if I don't take the words of a far right racist extremist as gospel on the matter - I know some (culturally) Christian Palestinians who live here and they have an entirely different view.MikeK said:
Absolutely wrong. There has been ethnic cleaning from the Arab territories around Israel. The fact that there are still christians in the so called Palestinian territories is because Israel has put a stop to mass expulsion of christians living there. The Only country in the middle east where christians can live in peace is in Israel. Fancy that!!!JWisemann said:
You do realise that Israel have been a much greater threat to the Christians of Palestine than Hamas, thus far, right?Sean_F said:
It probably would be less bad than IS, but it would be entirely cleansed of Christians, Jews, and other non-Muslims.Cyclefree said:
Hamas want to create an Islamic state. Presumably the Islamic state they want to create will be a nice cuddly one completely different from the nasty IS Islamic state.SouthamObserver said:
This is what Corbyn will do to Labour. Instead of unequivocally condemning organisations that terrorise the populations they control and seek to obliterate a friendly sovereign state, the party will be looking for mealy-mouthed justifications for not unequivocally condemning them.JWisemann said:
No they don't.Cyclefree said:
Hamas want to kill every Jew in the world. That includes British Jews. An organisation that wants to kill your citizens certainly qualifies as an enemy. It is also a designated terrorist organisation.JWisemann said:Erm.. As far as I'm aware Hezbollah and Hamas aren't actually enemies of the UK. Indeed, Hezbollah share our (declared) aim of destroying ISIS in Syria. And it looks likely Hamas will be fighting them soon, too. Enemies of Israel doesn't equal enemies of the UK.
Don't be ridiculous. They are an unpleasant lot, to be sure, but are just a common or garden local militia, and pose absolutely no threat to the UK.
Or perhaps pigs will fly past my window right now.........0 -
And again we see the assumption everyone who disagrees is a Conservative!JWisemann said:Talk about an echo chamber - you have to realise that outside of the conservative clubs of Surrey, people don't give a crap about the Middle East and Israel and want as little to do with it as possible.
And so politically they are our enemies then. You don't think they should be our enemies, that's a view, but currently they are.JWisemann said:
If Hamas and Hezbollah are proscribed by the UK it is for political reasons, not because of any threat they represent to the UK.kle4 said:Nice to see the old 'anyone who doesn't agree with me is a PB Tory' opinion being floated again. As Tories seem more prevalent around here the reverse 'anyone who doesn't agree with me is commie' isn't seen as much, as one cannot claim innocence at making the mistake as much, as it is implausible.
Certainly, myself included. Like many people I am instinctively quite critical of Israel. How that means organisations either fully or with military wings listed as terror organisations are not enemies of ours, I do not follow.JWisemann said:
Most of the UK public are sceptical of Israel and pointless wars in the Middle East.Indigo said:
With views like yours on the doorstep the "left" won't get elected to run a village raffle. Shame.JWisemann said:
Ok, so all context and nuance should be ignored in falie, SO.SouthamObserver said:
This is what Corbyn will do to Labour. Instead of unequivocally condemning organisations that terrorise the populations they control and seek to obliterate a friendly sovereign state, the party will be looking for mealy-mouthed justifications for not unequivocally condemning them.JWisemann said:
No they don't.Cyclefree said:
Hamas want to kill every Jew in the world. That includes British Jews. An organisation that wants to kill your citizens certainly qualifies as an enemy. It is also a designated terrorist organisation.JWisemann said:Erm.. UK.
Don't be ridiculous. They are an unpleasant lot, to be sure, but are just a common or garden local militia, and pose absolutely no threat to the UK.
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lg83 We need the NS now more than ever..The country has to wake up and realise that we are at war.. just because the enemy is unseen does not mean it is not there...0
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Oh right! Glad we agreeSandpit said:
Agree entirely, my comment wasn't aimed at yourself.isam said:
I don't assume that, I believe Cameron and am glad we have done itSandpit said:
Do some on the left assume that the PM always lies about these things, just because Blair did..?isam said:
They were killed by the British government because they posed "a direct threat" to British people including plotting "barbaric" attacks against commemorations in the UK this summer.flightpath01 said:isam said:
British people are plotting to kill British people en masse as a consequence of mass immigrationJackW said:isam said:JackW said:
Not quite sure we're at civil war levels or are ever likely so to be.isam said:"Two British men killed by RAF drone strike in Syria last month" BBC today
"..there lies the certainty of violence on a scale which can only adequately be described as civil war" Enoch Powell 1981
Our government are now deliberately killing our own citizens. Everyone was warned this would happen a long, long time ago
The British nation has survived waves of immigration over the centuries and I don't doubt we'll do so again in a measured and reasoned fashion as in days gone by. It's our way.
Now the government are killing its own people to nip it in the bud
So I cant say that I agree with the liberal elite that mass immigration was a success, especially not when people at the time were warning that precisely what is happening now, would happen if it were allowed to continue
Still, the unaffected would rather people die that admit they got it wrong.
So says David Cameron
</ provocative >
Hopefully every idiot who leaves the UK to join the Daesh now understands there's a very very real target on their back.
Yes, let them go, good riddance. I have no idea why we try to stop them. Will be interesting to see who pops ups to defend them ot attack Cameron for authorising what he has done
But still I say, although I am glad we did it, it is a sad acknowledgement of the failure of our immigration policy that their is a huge community of British people that don't feel British0 -
As with all communities you'll find mixed views.JWisemann said:
Did you actually check out that link you obviously quickly googled? It was obviously nonsense if you took even the slightest minute to read it. If you actually speak to any Christian Palestinians it won't take you long to find out who they consider the real threat to their way of life, and quick clue - it isn't Muslim Palestinians.foxinsoxuk said:
Nonsense. Christians are perfectly safe in Israel while heavily persecuted in Gaza by Hamas:JWisemann said:
You do realise that Israel have been a much greater threat to the Christians of Palestine than Hamas, thus far, right?Sean_F said:
It probably would be less bad than IS, but it would be entirely cleansed of Christians, Jews, and other non-Muslims.Cyclefree said:
Hamas want to create an Islamic state. Presumably the Islamic state they want to create will be a nice cuddly one completely different from the nasty IS Islamic state.SouthamObserver said:
This is what Corbyn will do to Labour. Instead of unequivocally condemning organisations that terrorise the populations they control and seek to obliterate a friendly sovereign state, the party will be looking for mealy-mouthed justifications for not unequivocally condemning them.JWisemann said:
No they don't.Cyclefree said:
Hamas want to kill every Jew in the world. That includes British Jews. An organisation that wants to kill your citizens certainly qualifies as an enemy. It is also a designated terrorist organisation.JWisemann said:Erm.. As far as I'm aware Hezbollah and Hamas aren't actually enemies of the UK. Indeed, Hezbollah share our (declared) aim of destroying ISIS in Syria. And it looks likely Hamas will be fighting them soon, too. Enemies of Israel doesn't equal enemies of the UK.
Don't be ridiculous. They are an unpleasant lot, to be sure, but are just a common or garden local militia, and pose absolutely no threat to the UK.
Or perhaps pigs will fly past my window right now.........
http://rescuechristians.org/christians-in-gaza-have-faced-increasing-persecution-since-hamas-wrested-control/
But, Christians within Israel can practice their religion far more freely and safely than in other parts of the Middle East.0 -
Speaking personally I think that the govt should do as much as possible to keep Corbyn and his odious supporters in a constant state of hyperventilating apoplexy. On Syria, on the economy, on education, on health, on everything. We will know then they are doing something right. Any silence on that front will be very worrying.
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No, but it does mean we can't fire a nuclear missile at it. That being the point. If we're up to our eyes in jihadists, we can't complain that this shouldn't happen because we spent 20 billion on a Trident replacement (or whatever the current figure is).richardDodd said:lg83 We need the NS now more than ever..The country has to wake up and realise that we are at war.. just because the enemy is unseen does not mean it is not there...
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I got all that into a short question about why you attributed certain views to people whom you give every impression of knowing nothing whatsoever about?JWisemann said:As this is just a web instance of the above - same as here - pearl clutching and virtue signalling about official Eastasian enemies, whatabouttery and memory loss regarding our Eurasian allies, rampant hypocrisy and shire horse size blinkers all round.
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Lucky for the ones within Israel, less comforting for those who are having their ancestral lands stolen by racist settlers of MikeK's ilk.Sean_F said:
As with all communities you'll find mixed views.JWisemann said:
Did you actually check out that link you obviously quickly googled? It was obviously nonsense if you took even the slightest minute to read it. If you actually speak to any Christian Palestinians it won't take you long to find out who they consider the real threat to their way of life, and quick clue - it isn't Muslim Palestinians.foxinsoxuk said:
Nonsense. Christians are perfectly safe in Israel while heavily persecuted in Gaza by Hamas:JWisemann said:
You do realise that Israel have been a much greater threat to the Christians of Palestine than Hamas, thus far, right?Sean_F said:
It probably would be less bad than IS, but it would be entirely cleansed of Christians, Jews, and other non-Muslims.Cyclefree said:
Hamas want to create an Islamic state. Presumably the Islamic state they want to create will be a nice cuddly one completely different from the nasty IS Islamic state.SouthamObserver said:
This is what Corbyn will do to Labour. Instead of unequivocally condemning organisations that terrorise the populations they control and seek to obliterate a friendly sovereign state, the party will be looking for mealy-mouthed justifications for not unequivocally condemning them.JWisemann said:
No they don't.Cyclefree said:
Hamas want to kill every Jew in the world. That includes British Jews. An organisation that wants to kill your citizens certainly qualifies as an enemy. It is also a designated terrorist organisation.JWisemann said:Erm.. As far as I'm aware Hezbollah and Hamas aren't actually enemies of the UK. Indeed, Hezbollah share our (declared) aim of destroying ISIS in Syria. And it looks likely Hamas will be fighting them soon, too. Enemies of Israel doesn't equal enemies of the UK.
Don't be ridiculous. They are an unpleasant lot, to be sure, but are just a common or garden local militia, and pose absolutely no threat to the UK.
Or perhaps pigs will fly past my window right now.........
http://rescuechristians.org/christians-in-gaza-have-faced-increasing-persecution-since-hamas-wrested-control/
But, Christians within Israel can practice their religion far more freely and safely than in other parts of the Middle East.
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No - more than we need aircraft carriers without catapults. And more than we need 60 tonne main battle tanks.Luckyguy1983 said:
Quite. More than we need nuclear submarines.flightpath01 said:
We need more drones and we need more satellites and communications to control them and we need more intelligence assets like communications monitoring and we need more special forces. The requirements of our armed forces are changing.richardDodd said:What we need are more drones..we have the gonads and lotsa targets...tine to stop f*cking about..
But in fact the relative costs of drones and intelligence gathering is comparatively cheap. So blinded are you by your sarcasm you fail to see the difference between tactical and strategic defence.0 -
Had a quick read.HurstLlama said:O/T Dan Jarvis seems to have come off the fence. He has written a report giving his views on why Labour lost the last GE and what it needs to do if it's ever going to win again. Needless to say Corbyn style politics is the antithesis of Jarvis's views. Fun reading for all, particularly those that think UKIP is irrelevant.
https://d3n8a8pro7vhmx.cloudfront.net/ab/pages/477/attachments/original/1440871372/Reconnecting_Labour-1.pdf?1440871372
Good on analysis of where Labour fell short in the Election.
Another complete lightweight when it comes to proposals to fix these problems, full of vague "we must do something" language.
No better than the current Gang of Four.0 -
LG 83 At some point in time the ISIS organisation will settle down into some sort of area where they can control,their forces.. if they deliver a dirty bomb to us then they have to realise that within minutes they will all have their 72 virgins delivered..and their beloved caliphate will be just another desert.. again..then we mop up the jihadists..I am sure there will be plenty of volunteers to to that.0
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It appears then that the pit Labour are digging is getting deeper.Disraeli said:
Had a quick read.HurstLlama said:O/T Dan Jarvis seems to have come off the fence. He has written a report giving his views on why Labour lost the last GE and what it needs to do if it's ever going to win again. Needless to say Corbyn style politics is the antithesis of Jarvis's views. Fun reading for all, particularly those that think UKIP is irrelevant.
https://d3n8a8pro7vhmx.cloudfront.net/ab/pages/477/attachments/original/1440871372/Reconnecting_Labour-1.pdf?1440871372
Good on analysis of where Labour fell short in the Election.
Another complete lightweight when it comes to proposals to fix these problems, full of vague "we must do something" language.
No better than the current Gang of Four.0 -
From Libya to Afghanistan, Iraq, Syria, Indonesia, Iran, Pakistan and Saudi Arabia, UK establishment foreign policy since WWII has invariably favoured the spread of Islamic terror and extremism over nationalist secularism. It's a disgrace.0
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Yup, long on analysis short on remedies.Disraeli said:
Had a quick read.HurstLlama said:O/T Dan Jarvis seems to have come off the fence. He has written a report giving his views on why Labour lost the last GE and what it needs to do if it's ever going to win again. Needless to say Corbyn style politics is the antithesis of Jarvis's views. Fun reading for all, particularly those that think UKIP is irrelevant.
https://d3n8a8pro7vhmx.cloudfront.net/ab/pages/477/attachments/original/1440871372/Reconnecting_Labour-1.pdf?1440871372
Good on analysis of where Labour fell short in the Election.
Another complete lightweight when it comes to proposals to fix these problems, full of vague "we must do something" language.
No better than the current Gang of Four.
Indeed it sort of suggests there is no remedy since if they take on the WWC agenda ( radically reduce immigration, stop globalisation ) then the other parts of Labour may go off in a strop.
I'm beginning to think the rainbow can't be put back together.0 -
More evidence that the Labour party are not fit to be in charge of anything and most certainly not the country.0
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The Islamic Jihadist mindset sees any form of kindness or reticence as a sign of weakness..they will exploit that. as they are doing at this very moment in Germany.0
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Saddam was a secularist? He did not oppress one religious minority over another? He did not invade Kuwait? Oh hang on he did fire scuds into Israel so he was all right really for you (serious not sarcastic btw).JWisemann said:From Libya to Afghanistan, Iraq, Syria, Indonesia, Iran, Pakistan and Saudi Arabia, UK establishment foreign policy since WWII has invariably favoured the spread of Islamic terror and extremism over nationalist secularism. It's a disgrace.
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No, this is silly. If they get the chance to form a 'state', we've already lost. They can and must be decisively defeated, and conventional weapons are what we need to do it.richardDodd said:LG 83 At some point in time the ISIS organisation will settle down into some sort of area where they can control,their forces.. if they deliver a dirty bomb to us then they have to realise that within minutes they will all have their 72 virgins delivered..and their beloved caliphate will be just another desert.. again..then we mop up the jihadists..I am sure there will be plenty of volunteers to to that.
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Must say I found the bits of Cameron's statement I've seen pretty practical and pragmatic - he maintained the point that taking an arbitrary number is not a solution to this crisis, he laid out the scale of those displaced and how that those coming to Europe so far are a small number of those, and how the key to preventing deaths is preventing more people making the dangerous journey in the first place, and so why focusing on camps is a good idea, while accepting taking more was a moral issue.0
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There have never been good choices. A strongman, like the Shah, Assad, or Gadaffi, is always vulnerable to being overthrown by the public.JWisemann said:From Libya to Afghanistan, Iraq, Syria, Indonesia, Iran, Pakistan and Saudi Arabia, UK establishment foreign policy since WWII has invariably favoured the spread of Islamic terror and extremism over nationalist secularism. It's a disgrace.
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LG83 Tell that to the Labour and Liberal and the SNP and the Green Parties..and we might just get somewhere0
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We supported Saddam for quite a while in case you had forgotten.flightpath01 said:
Saddam was a secularist? He did not oppress one religious minority over another? He did not invade Kuwait? Oh hang on he did fire scuds into Israel so he was all right really for you (serious not sarcastic btw).JWisemann said:From Libya to Afghanistan, Iraq, Syria, Indonesia, Iran, Pakistan and Saudi Arabia, UK establishment foreign policy since WWII has invariably favoured the spread of Islamic terror and extremism over nationalist secularism. It's a disgrace.
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Ugly spat between Yvette Copper and the SNP over who is virtue signalling the loudest0
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"The Invasion of the Bald, Eighty-Year-Old IT Analysts"?JWisemann said:
less comforting for those who are having their ancestral lands stolen by settlers of MikeK's ilk.Sean_F said:
As with all communities you'll find mixed views.JWisemann said:
Did you actually check out that link you obviously quickly googled? It was obviously nonsense if you took even the slightest minute to read it. If you actually speak to any Christian Palestinians it won't take you long to find out who they consider the real threat to their way of life, and quick clue - it isn't Muslim Palestinians.foxinsoxuk said:
Nonsense. Christians are perfectly safe in Israel while heavily persecuted in Gaza by Hamas:JWisemann said:
You do realise that Israel have been a much greater threat to the Christians of Palestine than Hamas, thus far, right?Sean_F said:
It probably would be less bad than IS, but it would be entirely cleansed of Christians, Jews, and other non-Muslims.Cyclefree said:
Hamas want to create an Islamic state. Presumably the Islamic state they want to create will be a nice cuddly one completely different from the nasty IS Islamic state.SouthamObserver said:
This is what Corbyn will do to Labour. Instead of unequivocally condemning organisations that terrorise the populations they control and seek to obliterate a friendly sovereign state, the party will be looking for mealy-mouthed justifications for not unequivocally condemning them.JWisemann said:
No they don't.Cyclefree said:
Hamas want to kill every Jew in the world. That includes British Jews. An organisation that wants to kill your citizens certainly qualifies as an enemy. It is also a designated terrorist organisation.JWisemann said:Erm.. As far as I'm aware Hezbollah and Hamas aren't actually enemies of the UK. Indeed, Hezbollah share our (declared) aim of destroying ISIS in Syria. And it looks likely Hamas will be fighting them soon, too. Enemies of Israel doesn't equal enemies of the UK.
Don't be ridiculous. They are an unpleasant lot, to be sure, but are just a common or garden local militia, and pose absolutely no threat to the UK.
Or perhaps pigs will fly past my window right now.........
http://rescuechristians.org/christians-in-gaza-have-faced-increasing-persecution-since-hamas-wrested-control/
But, Christians within Israel can practice their religion far more freely and safely than in other parts of the Middle East.
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Luckyguy1983 said:
No, this is silly. If they get the chance to form a 'state', we've already lost. They can and must be decisively defeated, and conventional weapons are what we need to do it.richardDodd said:LG 83 At some point in time the ISIS organisation will settle down into some sort of area where they can control,their forces.. if they deliver a dirty bomb to us then they have to realise that within minutes they will all have their 72 virgins delivered..and their beloved caliphate will be just another desert.. again..then we mop up the jihadists..I am sure there will be plenty of volunteers to to that.
The only way to defeat them is to kill their leaders and most (75%?) of their followers.. and harry the rest.. Rather like defeating Germany in WW2.. - basically killing most of the armed forces and raising Germany to the ground..So we'll need an army on the ground at least twice the size of IS's .. say 250,000.. And organised bloodbaths..
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@IsabelHardman: Bercow now having to reassure different parties that everyone can have a debate that they can take credit for on the refugee crisis0
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TBF, that's something like 12 hours of debate. If no one on the payroll vote wants to speak, that leaves about 1.5 minutes for each other MP.Plato said:
Not unreasonable given the magnitude of the issue.0 -
Don't agree. How long do you think they fancy continuing with no pay? With no hospital treatment? With no new troops, weapons? An army marches on its stomach. ISIS exists because 'we' (Western and regional coalition) either lack the will to coral regional allies into doing the right thing, or worse, don't want them to, because it gives 'us' the pretext to attack Assad.madasafish said:Luckyguy1983 said:
No, this is silly. If they get the chance to form a 'state', we've already lost. They can and must be decisively defeated, and conventional weapons are what we need to do it.richardDodd said:LG 83 At some point in time the ISIS organisation will settle down into some sort of area where they can control,their forces.. if they deliver a dirty bomb to us then they have to realise that within minutes they will all have their 72 virgins delivered..and their beloved caliphate will be just another desert.. again..then we mop up the jihadists..I am sure there will be plenty of volunteers to to that.
The only way to defeat them is to kill their leaders and most (75%?) of their followers.. and harry the rest.. Rather like defeating Germany in WW2.. - basically killing most of the armed forces and raising Germany to the ground..So we'll need an army on the ground at least twice the size of IS's .. say 250,000.. And organised bloodbaths..
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The people need to know - has JWisemann ever kissed a Tory?Richard_Nabavi said:
I got all that into a short question about why you attributed certain views to people whom you give every impression of knowing nothing whatsoever about?JWisemann said:As this is just a web instance of the above - same as here - pearl clutching and virtue signalling about official Eastasian enemies, whatabouttery and memory loss regarding our Eurasian allies, rampant hypocrisy and shire horse size blinkers all round.
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Most of which applies to the "targeted airstrike"Cyclefree said:
I think it will have an effect within the UK. It will embolden the Islamists withi the UK, it will embolden those who don't want to take action against them, it will hearten anti-Semites within the UK, it will push other politicians to try and meet them in some way (the naive desire to assume that even those who are against reason, must somehow nonetheless be being reasonable and have a reason which others must seek to understand), it will embolden the enemies of freedom and liberalism within this country.0 -
Also seems to imply that non-white jobless people are more likely to resort to burglary than white jobless people.JEO said:I read an interview with Sadiq Khan the other day where he was defending his pledge to introduce discrimination against white people in the jobs market. He was arguing that white people should support because it would reduce crime. It's a curious argument to explain to white voters on the doorstep: non-white people should be given a job over you because it will mean they are less likely to rob your house.
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Glad to hear that the PM intends to welcome 20,000 refugees here.
One thing I think think this crisis has done is turb the whole of PB against the mainstream media - until today, the only news-outlets that were consistently criticised on PB were the BBC and The Guardian. Now even the Mail and Sky News are in the firing line. And while everyone in Germany may not support Merkel's policy, recent polling by ARD suggests that a majority do.0 -
Good luck with that. How many troops will be needed in mainland Europe to take on those who are creeping in under the cover of being a 'refugee'?madasafish said:Luckyguy1983 said:
No, this is silly. If they get the chance to form a 'state', we've already lost. They can and must be decisively defeated, and conventional weapons are what we need to do it.richardDodd said:LG 83 At some point in time the ISIS organisation will settle down into some sort of area where they can control,their forces.. if they deliver a dirty bomb to us then they have to realise that within minutes they will all have their 72 virgins delivered..and their beloved caliphate will be just another desert.. again..then we mop up the jihadists..I am sure there will be plenty of volunteers to to that.
The only way to defeat them is to kill their leaders and most (75%?) of their followers.. and harry the rest.. Rather like defeating Germany in WW2.. - basically killing most of the armed forces and raising Germany to the ground..So we'll need an army on the ground at least twice the size of IS's .. say 250,000.. And organised bloodbaths..0 -
Will it shed any light on the issue? Will it ensure Hungary regains control of its borders?Charles said:
TBF, that's something like 12 hours of debate. If no one on the payroll vote wants to speak, that leaves about 1.5 minutes for each other MP.Plato said:
Not unreasonable given the magnitude of the issue.
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Tories sink to third place in Canadian polls:
NDP 32.1%
Lib 29.5%
Con 27.7%
Seats projection:
NDP 122
Lib 114
Con 101
http://www.cbc.ca/news2/interactives/poll-tracker/2015/index.html0 -
For now the polling is in favour,see in a years time.The_Apocalypse said:Glad to hear that the PM intends to welcome 20,000 refugees here.
One thing I think think this crisis has done is turb the whole of PB against the mainstream media - until today, the only news-outlets that were consistently criticised on PB were the BBC and The Guardian. Now even the Mail and Sky News are in the firing line. And while everyone in Germany may not support Merkel's policy, recent polling by ARD suggests that a majority do.0 -
Politically, it is surely the longest suicide n̶o̶t̶e̶ in history...Sunil_Prasannan said:
Still five days to go!glw said:I had wondered how damaging Corbyn and his extreme views might be in practice, after all he might tone it down if elected Labour leader. But this afternoon's arguing shows that it doesn't matter, Corbyn's supporters will make the Labour Party unpalatable all on their own.
Labour really are up to their necks in it.0 -
Germany's population is in decline so it makes sense for them to welcome newcomers.The_Apocalypse said:Glad to hear that the PM intends to welcome 20,000 refugees here.
One thing I think think this crisis has done is turb the whole of PB against the mainstream media - until today, the only news-outlets that were consistently criticised on PB were the BBC and The Guardian. Now even the Mail and Sky News are in the firing line. And while everyone in Germany may not support Merkel's policy, recent polling by ARD suggests that a majority do.0 -
TudorRose said:
Politically, it is surely the longest suicide n̶o̶t̶e̶ in history...Sunil_Prasannan said:
Still five days to go!glw said:I had wondered how damaging Corbyn and his extreme views might be in practice, after all he might tone it down if elected Labour leader. But this afternoon's arguing shows that it doesn't matter, Corbyn's supporters will make the Labour Party unpalatable all on their own.
Labour really are up to their necks in it.0 -
We have different demographics to Germany.The_Apocalypse said:Glad to hear that the PM intends to welcome 20,000 refugees here.
One thing I think think this crisis has done is turb the whole of PB against the mainstream media - until today, the only news-outlets that were consistently criticised on PB were the BBC and The Guardian. Now even the Mail and Sky News are in the firing line. And while everyone in Germany may not support Merkel's policy, recent polling by ARD suggests that a majority do.0 -
Surely they already have formed a state, they even have "colonies" in Libya and Sinai.Luckyguy1983 said:
No, this is silly. If they get the chance to form a 'state', we've already lost. They can and must be decisively defeated, and conventional weapons are what we need to do it.richardDodd said:LG 83 At some point in time the ISIS organisation will settle down into some sort of area where they can control,their forces.. if they deliver a dirty bomb to us then they have to realise that within minutes they will all have their 72 virgins delivered..and their beloved caliphate will be just another desert.. again..then we mop up the jihadists..I am sure there will be plenty of volunteers to to that.
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And, of course, that was a paradigm about how thoughtful debate should be conducted.JosiasJessop said:0 -
Can someone (Guido maybe?) please start asking all these v***** s********* politicians and 'celebrities' if they would welcome a 'refugee' or two to come and live in their own home...Scott_P said:Ugly spat between Yvette Copper and the SNP over who is virtue signalling the loudest
0 -
Probably not. But that's the nature of Parliament - it's about talking, not doing.flightpath01 said:
Will it shed any light on the issue? Will it ensure Hungary regains control of its borders?Charles said:
TBF, that's something like 12 hours of debate. If no one on the payroll vote wants to speak, that leaves about 1.5 minutes for each other MP.Plato said:
Not unreasonable given the magnitude of the issue.
0 -
@AndyJS and @Sunil_Prasannan
I know this: I wasn't making a comparison between British public opinion and German public opinion (in this instance).0 -
No, the Yom "Kipper" War!Charles said:
"The Invasion of the Bald, Eighty-Year-Old IT Analysts"?JWisemann said:
less comforting for those who are having their ancestral lands stolen by settlers of MikeK's ilk.Sean_F said:
As with all communities you'll find mixed views.JWisemann said:
Did you actually check out that link you obviously quickly googled? It was obviously nonsense if you took even the slightest minute to read it. If you actually speak to any Christian Palestinians it won't take you long to find out who they consider the real threat to their way of life, and quick clue - it isn't Muslim Palestinians.foxinsoxuk said:
Nonsense. Christians are perfectly safe in Israel while heavily persecuted in Gaza by Hamas:JWisemann said:
You do realise that Israel have been a much greater threat to the Christians of Palestine than Hamas, thus far, right?Sean_F said:
It probably would be less bad than IS, but it would be entirely cleansed of Christians, Jews, and other non-Muslims.Cyclefree said:
Hamas want to create an Islamic state. Presumably the Islamic state they want to create will be a nice cuddly one completely different from the nasty IS Islamic state.SouthamObserver said:
This is what Corbyn will do to Labour. Instead of unequivocally condemning organisations mealy-mouthed justifications for not unequivocally condemning them.JWisemann said:
No they don't.Cyclefree said:
Hamas want to kill every Jew in the world. That includes British Jews. An organisation that wants to kill your citizens certainly qualifies as an enemy. It is also a designated terrorist organisation.JWisemann said:Erm.. As far as I'm aware Hezbollah and Hamas aren't actually enemies of the UK. Indeed, Hezbollah share our (declared) aim of destroying ISIS in Syria. And it looks likely Hamas will be fighting them soon, too. Enemies of Israel doesn't equal enemies of the UK.
Don't be ridiculous. They are an unpleasant lot, to be sure, but are just a common or garden local militia, and pose absolutely no threat to the UK.
Or perhaps pigs will fly past my window right now.........
http://rescuechristians.org/christians-in-gaza-have-faced-increasing-persecution-since-hamas-wrested-control/
But, Christians within Israel can practice their religion far more freely and safely than in other parts of the Middle East.0 -
I see Caroline Lucas said that Brighton Council would be perfectly willing to take more refugees, so long as the government fully resources it. So if it comes at no additional financial cost to them. Not unreasonable, but it seemed more cold than I was expecting from the Greens, I'd assumed she would say something like 'the government should provide more additional funds, and we'd make the choice to allocate more than we'd been planning on this as well'.0
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It was 20,000 over the course of this Parliament, so that might get him some flak from Bono and Sir Bob, but it may be front loaded so that it isn't 4,000 for each of the next five years. Although, if we are taking say 4,000 of the most traumatised children who are going to need expensive specialist care, that might still be the right thing to doThe_Apocalypse said:Glad to hear that the PM intends to welcome 20,000 refugees here.
One thing I think think this crisis has done is turb the whole of PB against the mainstream media - until today, the only news-outlets that were consistently criticised on PB were the BBC and The Guardian. Now even the Mail and Sky News are in the firing line. And while everyone in Germany may not support Merkel's policy, recent polling by ARD suggests that a majority do.0 -
In all seriousness, and Weismann vitriol and hyperbole aside, it is a really difficult subject. Either you go with secularist dictators, invariably from a minority population who invariably devolve into ever more despotic tyrants, or you promote the will of the people which, because neither democracy nor institutions nor adequate size of middle class exists, gets subverted and coopted by the most brutal and well organized segment of society which, in MENA, has tended to be extremist Islamists.Sean_F said:
There have never been good choices. A strongman, like the Shah, Assad, or Gadaffi, is always vulnerable to being overthrown by the public.JWisemann said:From Libya to Afghanistan, Iraq, Syria, Indonesia, Iran, Pakistan and Saudi Arabia, UK establishment foreign policy since WWII has invariably favoured the spread of Islamic terror and extremism over nationalist secularism. It's a disgrace.
Given the former tend to fall to popular rebellions which devolve to the latter, I doubt that any foreign policy by any outside power, let alone the UK which has no means by which to impose whatever fancy foreign policy it may wish it could pursue, could have achieved any result other than nasty islamist takeovers.0 -
Alternatively they could try a night out, a one too many and some soft lighting....AndyJS said:
Germany's population is in decline so it makes sense for them to welcome newcomers.The_Apocalypse said:Glad to hear that the PM intends to welcome 20,000 refugees here.
One thing I think think this crisis has done is turb the whole of PB against the mainstream media - until today, the only news-outlets that were consistently criticised on PB were the BBC and The Guardian. Now even the Mail and Sky News are in the firing line. And while everyone in Germany may not support Merkel's policy, recent polling by ARD suggests that a majority do.0 -
We also have a longer experience of the effects of mass immigration.Sunil_Prasannan said:
We have different demographics to Germany.The_Apocalypse said:Glad to hear that the PM intends to welcome 20,000 refugees here.
One thing I think think this crisis has done is turb the whole of PB against the mainstream media - until today, the only news-outlets that were consistently criticised on PB were the BBC and The Guardian. Now even the Mail and Sky News are in the firing line. And while everyone in Germany may not support Merkel's policy, recent polling by ARD suggests that a majority do.0 -
Someone else wanting others to spend money in order that they can feel good about themself.kle4 said:I see Caroline Lucas said that Brighton Council would be perfectly willing to take more refugees, so long as the government fully resources it. So if it comes at no additional financial cost to them. Not unreasonable, but it seemed more cold than I was expecting from the Greens, I'd assumed she would say something like 'the government should provide more additional funds, and we'd make the choice to allocate more than we'd been planning on this as well'.
Where will they live, is Ms Lucas offering accommodation or is there a surplus of public housing in Brighton?0 -
What if less than 20000 Syrians want to come here? May be unlikely, but am curious if the government would be condemned if it failed for that reason.0
-
They could always live at Dave's place in Witney!Sandpit said:
Someone else wanting others to spend money in order that they can feel good about themself.kle4 said:I see Caroline Lucas said that Brighton Council would be perfectly willing to take more refugees, so long as the government fully resources it. So if it comes at no additional financial cost to them. Not unreasonable, but it seemed more cold than I was expecting from the Greens, I'd assumed she would say something like 'the government should provide more additional funds, and we'd make the choice to allocate more than we'd been planning on this as well'.
Where will they live, is Ms Lucas offering accommodation or is there a surplus of public housing in Brighton?0 -
Ha! I think it's entirely predictable that the likes of Lucas would be happy to accept more immigrants so long as someone else is paying.kle4 said:I see Caroline Lucas said that Brighton Council would be perfectly willing to take more refugees, so long as the government fully resources it. So if it comes at no additional financial cost to them. Not unreasonable, but it seemed more cold than I was expecting from the Greens, I'd assumed she would say something like 'the government should provide more additional funds, and we'd make the choice to allocate more than we'd been planning on this as well'.
0 -
But what happens next year when hundreds of thousands of migrants arrive in Europe? I cannot see the left-wing press and EU leaders saying not to worry as we are taking 4,000 per year.MarqueeMark said:
It was 20,000 over the course of this Parliament, so that might get him some flak from Bono and Sir Bob, but it may be front loaded so that it isn't 4,000 for each of the next five years. Although, if we are taking say 4,000 of the most traumatised children who are going to need expensive specialist care, that might still be the right thing to doThe_Apocalypse said:Glad to hear that the PM intends to welcome 20,000 refugees here.
One thing I think think this crisis has done is turb the whole of PB against the mainstream media - until today, the only news-outlets that were consistently criticised on PB were the BBC and The Guardian. Now even the Mail and Sky News are in the firing line. And while everyone in Germany may not support Merkel's policy, recent polling by ARD suggests that a majority do.
0 -
They will be lining up for the publicity as long as someone else is footing the bill. The donkeys cannot house the people already in the country , where do they plan to put them.kle4 said:I see Caroline Lucas said that Brighton Council would be perfectly willing to take more refugees, so long as the government fully resources it. So if it comes at no additional financial cost to them. Not unreasonable, but it seemed more cold than I was expecting from the Greens, I'd assumed she would say something like 'the government should provide more additional funds, and we'd make the choice to allocate more than we'd been planning on this as well'.
PS: for sure it will not be in their own houses or even their second houses.
0 -
That was kind of my point.Charles said:
And, of course, that was a paradigm about how thoughtful debate should be conducted.JosiasJessop said:
How many hours were the debates on fox hunting?0 -
Listening to Corbyn talk, although I think the talk of him being entirely different from other politicians (he does us cliche and meaningless jargon as much as any), there is something in his blandness of tone. Galloway is very entertaining, but his passion makes it so easy to get worked up about things he says, but Corbyn is so softly spoken most of the time, so dull, it is mentally hard to notice if he says something that is less than reasonable.0
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In any case, they are combatants fighting for a country with which we are at war, and traitors to boot.isam said:
They were killed because they were planning to kill members of the British public en masse out of allegiance to a religion that barely existed here 40 years ago, over their nationality which they actively despisefoxinsoxuk said:
If it were drone strikes on Finsbury Park Mosque then that would be civil war. These two went to join IS on foreign territory. They chose to enter a war zone, and put their lives at risk. Nice work by the RAF dronesters.isam said:
British people are plotting to kill British people en masse as a consequence of mass immigrationJackW said:
Poppycock.isam said:
The phrase was "violence on a scale which can only adequately be described as civil war"JackW said:
Not quite sure we're at civil war levels or are ever likely so to be.isam said:"Two British men killed by RAF drone strike in Syria last month" BBC today
"..there lies the certainty of violence on a scale which can only adequately be described as civil war" Enoch Powell 1981
Our government are now deliberately killing our own citizens. Everyone was warned this would happen a long, long time ago
The British nation has survived waves of immigration over the centuries and I don't doubt we'll do so again in a measured and reasoned fashion as in days gone by. It's our way.
I'd say the British Govt killing its own citizens via drone strikes fits that description adequately
The immigration over the centuries is not comparable with that of the last 30-40 years, that's just a line trotted out by the liberal elite.
The death of two British ISIS terrorists does not constitute civil war.
The "liberal elite" might just be correct. It has been known.
Now the government are killing its own people to nip it in the bud
So I cant say that I agree with the liberal elite that mass immigration was a success, especially not when people at the time were warning that precisely what is happening now, would happen if it were allowed to continue
Still, the unaffected would rather people die that admit they got it wrong.
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In such an event, the PM has the power and authority to resurrect 18th century press-gangs..!kle4 said:What if less than 20000 Syrians want to come here? May be unlikely, but am curious if the government would be condemned if it failed for that reason.
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This country has some serious PR issues if they would rather face ISIS than come here!kle4 said:What if less than 20000 Syrians want to come here? May be unlikely, but am curious if the government would be condemned if it failed for that reason.
"What, go to a country that would elect Jeremy Corbyn as its potential leader? Are you mad?"0 -
Yep - I've just seen The Guardian's live blog on this where they state we'll be welcoming them over a period of five years. I think it was Toby Young initially, who wanted to focus on resettling Syrian children orphaned as a result of the crisis. If we can, I think this the group we should focus on the most this year.MarqueeMark said:
It was 20,000 over the course of this Parliament, so that might get him some flak from Bono and Sir Bob, but it may be front loaded so that it isn't 4,000 for each of the next five years. Although, if we are taking say 4,000 of the most traumatised children who are going to need expensive specialist care, that might still be the right thing to doThe_Apocalypse said:Glad to hear that the PM intends to welcome 20,000 refugees here.
One thing I think think this crisis has done is turb the whole of PB against the mainstream media - until today, the only news-outlets that were consistently criticised on PB were the BBC and The Guardian. Now even the Mail and Sky News are in the firing line. And while everyone in Germany may not support Merkel's policy, recent polling by ARD suggests that a majority do.
I was also a bit shocked to see that New Zealand and Australia have now offered to take in some refugees as well - especially in the latter's case.0 -
I was thinking more they, in camps that are hopefully safe if not great, would hold out for Germany or Sweden etc.MarqueeMark said:
This country has some serious PR issues if they would rather face ISIS than come here!kle4 said:What if less than 20000 Syrians want to come here? May be unlikely, but am curious if the government would be condemned if it failed for that reason.
"What, go to a country that would elect Jeremy Corbyn as its potential leader? Are you mad?"0 -
Six men who groomed vulnerable under-age girls for sex "for the price of a McDonald's, a milkshake and cinema ticket" have been jailed.
The Old Bailey heard the abuse in Aylesbury, Buckinghamshire, involved multiples rapes, child prostitution and administering substances to "stupefy".
The men, from Aylesbury, Milton Keynes and Bradford, abused the two schoolgirls between 2006 and 2012.
Most were given long prison sentences - the longest being 19-and-a-half years.
The jailed men are:
■Vikram Singh, 46, of Cannock Road, Aylesbury, jailed for 17-and-a-half years after being found guilty of four counts of rape and administering a substance with intent
■Asif Hussain, 33, of Hodge Lea, Milton Keynes, jailed for 13-and-a-half years after being convicted of three counts of rape
■Arshad Jani, 33, of Cousins Drive, Aylesbury, sentenced to 13 years in prison after being found guilty of rape and conspiracy to rape
■Mohammed Imran, 38, of Springcliffe Street, Bradford, sentenced to 19-and-a-half years in prison after being convicted of three counts of rape, one count of conspiracy to rape and one count of child prostitution
■Akbari Khan, 36, of Mandeville Road, Aylesbury, sentenced to 16 years in prison after being found guilty of two counts of rape, administering a substance with intent and conspiracy to rape
■Taimoor Khan, 29, of Highbridge Road, Aylesbury, jailed for three years after being convicted of one count of sexual activity with a child
0 -
MG Where are you putting the 1000 plus coming your way..How big is Salmonds place..or places.0
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Ah yes - those ancestral lands where the Muslims are the Johnny-come-latelys, those lands having been occupied by Christians before them, Jews before them, Romans and countless other peoples before them. If anyone was doing the stealing it was the agressors in the 7th century.Charles said:
"The Invasion of the Bald, Eighty-Year-Old IT Analysts"?JWisemann said:
less comforting for those who are having their ancestral lands stolen by settlers of MikeK's ilk.Sean_F said:
As with all communities you'll find mixed views.JWisemann said:
Did you actually check out that link you obviously quickly googled? It was obviously nonsense if you took even the slightest minute to read it. If you actually speak to any Christian Palestinians it won't take you long to find out who they consider the real threat to their way of life, and quick clue - it isn't Muslim Palestinians.foxinsoxuk said:
Nonsense. Christians are perfectly safe in Israel while heavily persecuted in Gaza by Hamas:JWisemann said:
You do realise that Israel have been a much greater threat to the Christians of Palestine than Hamas, thus far, right?Sean_F said:
It probably would be less bad than IS, but it would be entirely cleansed of Christians, Jews, and other non-Muslims.Cyclefree said:
http://rescuechristians.org/christians-in-gaza-have-faced-increasing-persecution-since-hamas-wrested-control/
But, Christians within Israel can practice their religion far more freely and safely than in other parts of the Middle East.
Of course arguments about who got there first are silly. But since it is an argument which is regularly deployed by the Islamists - "these are Muslim lands" - it would be as well to get the historical record accurate.
0 -
We are only taking refugees, not migrants.MP_SE said:
But what happens next year when hundreds of thousands of migrants arrive in Europe? I cannot see the left-wing press and EU leaders saying not to worry as we are taking 4,000 per year.MarqueeMark said:
It was 20,000 over the course of this Parliament, so that might get him some flak from Bono and Sir Bob, but it may be front loaded so that it isn't 4,000 for each of the next five years. Although, if we are taking say 4,000 of the most traumatised children who are going to need expensive specialist care, that might still be the right thing to doThe_Apocalypse said:Glad to hear that the PM intends to welcome 20,000 refugees here.
One thing I think think this crisis has done is turb the whole of PB against the mainstream media - until today, the only news-outlets that were consistently criticised on PB were the BBC and The Guardian. Now even the Mail and Sky News are in the firing line. And while everyone in Germany may not support Merkel's policy, recent polling by ARD suggests that a majority do.
Migrants should form an orderly queue at the German border...0 -
Tory Messenger: Choose your next words carefully, Mr. Corbyn. They may be your last as Labour Leader.kle4 said:Listening to Corbyn talk, although I think the talk of him being entirely different from other politicians (he does us cliche and meaningless jargon as much as any), there is something in his blandness of tone. Galloway is very entertaining, but his passion makes it so easy to get worked up about things he says, but Corbyn is so softly spoken most of the time, so dull, it is mentally hard to notice if he says something that is less than reasonable.
Jeremy Corbyn: [to himself: thinking] "Earth and water"?
[He unsheathes and points his sword at the Messenger's throat]
Tory Messenger: Madman! You're a madman!
Jeremy Corbyn: Earth and water? You'll find plenty of both down there.[referring to the well]
Tory Messenger: No man, Tory or Labour, no man threatens a messenger!
Jeremy Corbyn: You bring the ashes and ruins of conquered economies to Islington's city steps. You insult my wife. You threaten my Party with slavery and death! Oh, I've chosen my words carefully, Bankster. Perhaps you should have done the same!
Tory Messenger: This is blasphemy! This is madness!
Jeremy Corbyn: Madness...? This is LABOUR!
[He kicks the Tory messenger down the well]
0 -
Still confusion in the House on how to refer to IS. ISIL the PM's choice, but Daesh the choice of some, sometimes additionally pronounced 'Die-ash' with an emphasis that put me in mind of someone correcting others' pronunciation.0
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Daeshkle4 said:Still confusion in the House on how to refer to IS. ISIL the PM's choice, but Daesh the choice of some, sometimes additionally pronounced 'Die-ash' with an emphasis that put me in mind of someone correcting others' pronunciation.
Daesh 2
Daesh with a Vengeance
Live Free or Daesh0 -
"Die-ash". He was indeed a very frustrating poster, but I don't think we here ever got as far as those sentiments?kle4 said:Still confusion in the House on how to refer to IS. ISIL the PM's choice, but Daesh the choice of some, sometimes additionally pronounced 'Die-ash' with an emphasis that put me in mind of someone correcting others' pronunciation.
0 -
Surely that should be Daesh 2: Daesh Harder, and also A Good Day to Daesh Hard.Sunil_Prasannan said:
Daeshkle4 said:Still confusion in the House on how to refer to IS. ISIL the PM's choice, but Daesh the choice of some, sometimes additionally pronounced 'Die-ash' with an emphasis that put me in mind of someone correcting others' pronunciation.
Daesh 2
Daesh with a Vengeance
Live Free or Daesh0 -
Sunil, how many times have you posted that now?Sunil_Prasannan said:
Tory Messenger: Choose your next words carefully, Mr. Corbyn. They may be your last as Labour Leader.kle4 said:Listening to Corbyn talk, although I think the talk of him being entirely different from other politicians (he does us cliche and meaningless jargon as much as any), there is something in his blandness of tone. Galloway is very entertaining, but his passion makes it so easy to get worked up about things he says, but Corbyn is so softly spoken most of the time, so dull, it is mentally hard to notice if he says something that is less than reasonable.
Jeremy Corbyn: [to himself: thinking] "Earth and water"?
[He unsheathes and points his sword at the Messenger's throat]
Tory Messenger: Madman! You're a madman!
Jeremy Corbyn: Earth and water? You'll find plenty of both down there.[referring to the well]
Tory Messenger: No man, Tory or Labour, no man threatens a messenger!
Jeremy Corbyn: You bring the ashes and ruins of conquered economies to Islington's city steps. You insult my wife. You threaten my Party with slavery and death! Oh, I've chosen my words carefully, Bankster. Perhaps you should have done the same!
Tory Messenger: This is blasphemy! This is madness!
Jeremy Corbyn: Madness...? This is LABOUR!
[He kicks the Tory messenger down the well]
It wasn't really funny the first time, let alone the umpteenth0 -
I am a bit confused by some of Cameron's responses - to one he said we don't take account of religion when taking in refugees, but did seem to agree about taking in particularly vulnerable groups, such as Assyrian Christians.0
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Under the VPR the refugees have 5 years to decide whether they wish to make an application to remain here. Does anyone know what happens if they choose not to? For example if they decide that they wish to move to another EU country are they able to (assuming we're still a member in 5 years time, of course)?kle4 said:
I was thinking more they, in camps that are hopefully safe if not great, would hold out for Germany or Sweden etc.MarqueeMark said:
This country has some serious PR issues if they would rather face ISIS than come here!kle4 said:What if less than 20000 Syrians want to come here? May be unlikely, but am curious if the government would be condemned if it failed for that reason.
"What, go to a country that would elect Jeremy Corbyn as its potential leader? Are you mad?"0 -
http://i2.cdn.turner.com/cnnnext/dam/assets/150227141917-christians-middle-east-exlarge-169.jpgJWisemann said:
Excuse me if I don't take the words of a far right racist extremist as gospel on the matter - I know some (culturally) Christian Palestinians who live here and they have an entirely different view.MikeK said:
Absolutely wrong. There has been ethnic cleaning from the Arab territories around Israel. The fact that there are still christians in the so called Palestinian territories is because Israel has put a stop to mass expulsion of christians living there. The Only country in the middle east where christians can live in peace is in Israel. Fancy that!!!JWisemann said:
You do realise that Israel have been a much greater threat to the Christians of Palestine than Hamas, thus far, right?Sean_F said:
It probably would be less bad than IS, but it would be entirely cleansed of Christians, Jews, and other non-Muslims.Cyclefree said:
Hamas want to create an Islamic state. Presumably the Islamic state they want to create will be a nice cuddly one completely different from the nasty IS Islamic state.SouthamObserver said:
This is what Corbyn will do to Labour. Instead of unequivocally condemning organisations that terrorise the populations they control and seek to obliterate a friendly sovereign state, the party will be looking for mealy-mouthed justifications for not unequivocally condemning them.JWisemann said:
No they don't.Cyclefree said:
Hamas want to kill every Jew in the world. That includes British Jews. An organisation that wants to kill your citizens certainly qualifies as an enemy. It is also a designated terrorist organisation.JWisemann said:Erm.. As far as I'm aware Hezbollah and Hamas aren't actually enemies of the UK. Indeed, Hezbollah share our (declared) aim of destroying ISIS in Syria. And it looks likely Hamas will be fighting them soon, too. Enemies of Israel doesn't equal enemies of the UK.
Don't be ridiculous. They are an unpleasant lot, to be sure, but are just a common or garden local militia, and pose absolutely no threat to the UK.
Or perhaps pigs will fly past my window right now.........
http://i2.cdn.turner.com/cnnnext/dam/assets/150227141917-christians-middle-east-exlarge-169.jpg
(CNN)0 -
Of course, it is reasonable to criticise current and recent Jewish settlement to Palestine, given the Palestinians that already live there don't/didn't get a say in it.Cyclefree said:
Ah yes - those ancestral lands where the Muslims are the Johnny-come-latelys, those lands having been occupied by Christians before them, Jews before them, Romans and countless other peoples before them. If anyone was doing the stealing it was the agressors in the 7th century.Charles said:
"The Invasion of the Bald, Eighty-Year-Old IT Analysts"?JWisemann said:
less comforting for those who are having their ancestral lands stolen by settlers of MikeK's ilk.Sean_F said:
As with all communities you'll find mixed views.JWisemann said:
Did you actually check out that link you obviously quickly googled? It was obviously nonsense if you took even the slightest minute to read it. If you actually speak to any Christian Palestinians it won't take you long to find out who they consider the real threat to their way of life, and quick clue - it isn't Muslim Palestinians.foxinsoxuk said:
Nonsense. Christians are perfectly safe in Israel while heavily persecuted in Gaza by Hamas:JWisemann said:
You do realise that Israel have been a much greater threat to the Christians of Palestine than Hamas, thus far, right?Sean_F said:
It probably would be less bad than IS, but it would be entirely cleansed of Christians, Jews, and other non-Muslims.Cyclefree said:
http://rescuechristians.org/christians-in-gaza-have-faced-increasing-persecution-since-hamas-wrested-control/
But, Christians within Israel can practice their religion far more freely and safely than in other parts of the Middle East.
Of course arguments about who got there first are silly. But since it is an argument which is regularly deployed by the Islamists - "these are Muslim lands" - it would be as well to get the historical record accurate.0 -
Oops forgot about the fifth instalment - haven't seen it to be fair!kle4 said:
Surely that should be Daesh 2: Daesh Harder, and also A Good Day to Daesh Hard.Sunil_Prasannan said:
Daeshkle4 said:Still confusion in the House on how to refer to IS. ISIL the PM's choice, but Daesh the choice of some, sometimes additionally pronounced 'Die-ash' with an emphasis that put me in mind of someone correcting others' pronunciation.
Daesh 2
Daesh with a Vengeance
Live Free or Daesh
No, should be simply:
A Good Day to Daesh0 -
*whoever0
-
Five years of this. EVERY DAY.
Jeremy Corbyn attended a conference after the Iraq war that called on Iraqis to engage in "military struggle" against coalition forces, the BBC's Panorama programme has learned.
Some 179 British soldiers, who were part of the coalition, died in Iraq.
Mr Corbyn, who is tipped to be the next Labour leader, attended the event on behalf of the Stop the War Coalition.
Mr Corbyn's team said the conference, in Cairo, had not been organised by Stop the War.
But Panorama has discovered the conference communique was posted on Stop the War's website and remained on if for many years.
http://bbc.in/1VJaY8W0 -
I dunno about you, but I enjoyed the Red October one:Charles said:
Sunil, how many times have you posted that now?Sunil_Prasannan said:
Tory Messenger: Choose your next words carefully, Mr. Corbyn. They may be your last as Labour Leader.kle4 said:Listening to Corbyn talk, although I think the talk of him being entirely different from other politicians (he does us cliche and meaningless jargon as much as any), there is something in his blandness of tone. Galloway is very entertaining, but his passion makes it so easy to get worked up about things he says, but Corbyn is so softly spoken most of the time, so dull, it is mentally hard to notice if he says something that is less than reasonable.
Jeremy Corbyn: [to himself: thinking] "Earth and water"?
[He unsheathes and points his sword at the Messenger's throat]
Tory Messenger: Madman! You're a madman!
Jeremy Corbyn: Earth and water? You'll find plenty of both down there.[referring to the well]
Tory Messenger: No man, Tory or Labour, no man threatens a messenger!
Jeremy Corbyn: You bring the ashes and ruins of conquered economies to Islington's city steps. You insult my wife. You threaten my Party with slavery and death! Oh, I've chosen my words carefully, Bankster. Perhaps you should have done the same!
Tory Messenger: This is blasphemy! This is madness!
Jeremy Corbyn: Madness...? This is LABOUR!
[He kicks the Tory messenger down the well]
It wasn't really funny the first time, let alone the umpteenth
"We will leave our MPs behind, we will pass through the Conservative patrols, past their sonar nets, and lay off their largest constituency, and listen to their chortling and tittering... while we conduct Austerity Debates!"
0 -
Note: the subject Charles responds to the stimulus as predicted!Charles said:
Sunil, how many times have you posted that now?Sunil_Prasannan said:
Tory Messenger: Choose your next words carefully, Mr. Corbyn. They may be your last as Labour Leader.kle4 said:Listening to Corbyn talk, although I think the talk of him being entirely different from other politicians (he does us cliche and meaningless jargon as much as any), there is something in his blandness of tone. Galloway is very entertaining, but his passion makes it so easy to get worked up about things he says, but Corbyn is so softly spoken most of the time, so dull, it is mentally hard to notice if he says something that is less than reasonable.
Jeremy Corbyn: [to himself: thinking] "Earth and water"?
[He unsheathes and points his sword at the Messenger's throat]
Tory Messenger: Madman! You're a madman!
Jeremy Corbyn: Earth and water? You'll find plenty of both down there.[referring to the well]
Tory Messenger: No man, Tory or Labour, no man threatens a messenger!
Jeremy Corbyn: You bring the ashes and ruins of conquered economies to Islington's city steps. You insult my wife. You threaten my Party with slavery and death! Oh, I've chosen my words carefully, Bankster. Perhaps you should have done the same!
Tory Messenger: This is blasphemy! This is madness!
Jeremy Corbyn: Madness...? This is LABOUR!
[He kicks the Tory messenger down the well]
It wasn't really funny the first time, let alone the umpteenth0 -
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A majority may support it but the extremists who don't set fire to two migrant buildings in recent days.The_Apocalypse said:Glad to hear that the PM intends to welcome 20,000 refugees here.
One thing I think think this crisis has done is turb the whole of PB against the mainstream media - until today, the only news-outlets that were consistently criticised on PB were the BBC and The Guardian. Now even the Mail and Sky News are in the firing line. And while everyone in Germany may not support Merkel's policy, recent polling by ARD suggests that a majority do.
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A full blown 5th columnist as leader of The Labour Party? This will be interesting.TheScreamingEagles said:Five years of this. EVERY DAY.
Jeremy Corbyn attended a conference after the Iraq war that called on Iraqis to engage in "military struggle" against coalition forces, the BBC's Panorama programme has learned.
Some 179 British soldiers, who were part of the coalition, died in Iraq.
Mr Corbyn, who is tipped to be the next Labour leader, attended the event on behalf of the Stop the War Coalition.
Mr Corbyn's team said the conference, in Cairo, had not been organised by Stop the War.
But Panorama has discovered the conference communique was posted on Stop the War's website and remained on if for many years.
http://bbc.in/1VJaY8W0 -
You still remember that one! I cannot help but be touchedRobD said:
I dunno about you, but I enjoyed the Red October one:Charles said:
Sunil, how many times have you posted that now?Sunil_Prasannan said:
Tory Messenger: Choose your next words carefully, Mr. Corbyn. They may be your last as Labour Leader.kle4 said:.
Jeremy Corbyn: [to himself: thinking] "Earth and water"?
[He unsheathes and points his sword at the Messenger's throat]
Tory Messenger: Madman! You're a madman!
Jeremy Corbyn: Earth and water? You'll find plenty of both down there.[referring to the well]
Tory Messenger: No man, Tory or Labour, no man threatens a messenger!
Jeremy Corbyn: You bring the ashes and ruins of conquered economies to Islington's city steps. You insult my wife. You threaten my Party with slavery and death! Oh, I've chosen my words carefully, Bankster. Perhaps you should have done the same!
Tory Messenger: This is blasphemy! This is madness!
Jeremy Corbyn: Madness...? This is LABOUR!
[He kicks the Tory messenger down the well]
It wasn't really funny the first time, let alone the umpteenth
"We will leave our MPs behind, we will pass through the Conservative patrols, past their sonar nets, and lay off their largest constituency, and listen to their chortling and tittering... while we conduct Austerity Debates!"
"Comrades, this is your Leadership Candidate. It is an honour to speak to you today, and I am honoured to be sailing with you on the maiden voyage of our motherland's most recent achievement. Once more, we play our dangerous game, a game of chess against our old adversary — The Conservative Party! For a century, your fathers before you and your older brothers played this game and played it well. But today the game is different. We have the advantage! It reminds me of the heady days of 1945 and Clement Attlee, when the world trembled at the sound of our Nationalisations. Well, they will tremble again — at the sound of our Progressiveness. The order is: engage the Corbyn Drive!
"Comrades, our own Parliamentary Party doesn't know our full potential! They will do everything possible to test us; but they will only test their own embarrassment! We will leave our MPs behind, we will pass through the Conservative patrols, past their sonar nets, and lay off their largest constituency, and listen to their chortling and tittering... while we conduct Austerity Debates. Then, and when we are finished, the only sound they will hear is our laughter, while we sail to Havana, where the sun is warm, and so is the... comradeship.
"A great day, comrades. We sail into history!"
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They aren't necessarily inconsistent, if we are focusing aid on those facing the greatest hardship, who may just happen to be Assyrian Christians.kle4 said:I am a bit confused by some of Cameron's responses - to one he said we don't take account of religion when taking in refugees, but did seem to agree about taking in particularly vulnerable groups, such as Assyrian Christians.
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When I saw that T-shirt posted up-thread, it went through my mind that Mr Corbyn is much more of a 'turning wine into water' sort of chap.kle4 said:Listening to Corbyn talk, although I think the talk of him being entirely different from other politicians (he does us cliche and meaningless jargon as much as any), there is something in his blandness of tone. Galloway is very entertaining, but his passion makes it so easy to get worked up about things he says, but Corbyn is so softly spoken most of the time, so dull, it is mentally hard to notice if he says something that is less than reasonable.
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Just got to the part where Tom Brake, LD MP spoke. I've never seen him before in my life.0
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Well take good note of him. He may yet be their Last Man Standing.kle4 said:Just got to the part where Tom Brake, LD MP spoke. I've never seen him before in my life.
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