I think more and Associate Membership - i.e. the clear indications that the Euro area is simply going to make all the decisions regardless of the others' wishes or interests - has pushed me completely into the Leave category. Full membership is looking more and more like a long suicide.
It's the same problem as "remain in UK" has for the Scots. Your opponents can (and will) come back for another bite at the cherry.
Meanwhile referenda themselves undermind representative democracy as a concept. We no longer elect MPs to govern us, we elect them to do so except when they are too frightened to do so. And however much HM the Queen tells us to think carefully before we vote, many people will vote with the bile in their hearts.
In many nations Parliament determines the law, referenda determine the constitution. This way party temporary politics doesn't determine permanent constitutional change. We seem to be evolving into that principle - major constitutional changes take referenda, policies are for Parliament.
It is for this reason I'd oppose eg a referenda on the death penalty. This is a political issue not a constitutional one.
Famously, the UK doesn't have a written constitution. Whether an independent Scotland would want one is an interesting question - one I suspect the SNP rather wasn't asked.
I would be happy with your position if I thought for one moment that I didn't need my PPE degree to understand it
"Famously" is wrong.
We do have a written constitution (e.g. Blackwood, Bagehot, Erskine May, etc).
We just don't have a *codified* constitution
Well, if you're prepared ro privatize constitution writing, I suppose you're right. But I doubt that even any of the Republican candidates for President would want to privatize that.
I think of it more as the Big Society as well.
The interaction of practice and precedent, common sense and the writings of learned men
Ok - enough - you ignore every point I've made and still call me a fool. I repeat Britain has given more aid to help refugees in the region than the rest of Europe COMBINED. Accepting people who've paid people smugglers and who may not even be genuine refugees is a pretty dim strategy. I suggest you head to Munich with your 'Welcome' banner'.
Take the time to read what I wrote and you'd know I support the British policy not the German one. I just don't think someone who has been tortured and hopes for a better life is merely avoiding "bad dentistry" - that is a disgraceful way to spin this families tragedy. The issue is linguistics not policy.
You're fixated on this phrase, but wasn't the "bad dentistry" he was escaping in Turkey?
I'm fixated on the phrase because words matter. To make out like he was putting his family on a raft to deal with a filling is wrong.
Since 8:30 this morning you've been claiming that the "bad dentistry" comment referred to Daesh not Turkey. Can you please accept that wasn't the case?
Not true, I haven't. I said he wasn't receiving the medical care he needed in Turkey following losing everything in Syria and so hoped for a new life in Europe. What part of not receiving medical care in Turkey do you take to mean I meant Syria?
I'm always slightly dubious about PM biographies. Whilst Seldon's latest tome on Cameron has some interesting snippets, it seems far too early to be anything other than a facsimile of the truth.
However, I found the following interesting:
In a face-to-face Downing Street showdown with the German chancellor, the Prime Minister said: ‘If there’s no deal, it’s not the end of the world; I’ll walk away from the EU.’
Before the GE, I asked whether there was a chance that Cameron might officially remain neutral in the vote, or even recommend people vote to leave. If he did, how would both his party and the country respond?
The quote she is claimed to have said "Britain is Europe's problem child". Lets just think about this for a moment, of all the nations in the EU, it is us that is the 'problem child'? Not the collapse of the greek economy, not eastern europe with its massive distribution of resources, or the French with its singular distaste of every doing anything that isnt always in its 100% self interest.
If Britain is Europe's problem child, it says more about her parenting skills than our behaviour. We are the child that follows all the rules, that does all the homework, that pays keep out of its part time job at mcdonalds. We are the child that, when left alone for the weekend, dont invite all our mates in and trash the place. We are the child that doesnt buy an iphone six on an expensive contract we knew we couldnt afford. We are the child that didnt take on the paperround and expect his parents to do his deliveries when he felt a bit under the weather.
Yes, we are the problem child.
I have a bit of a problem with the notion of us being a "child" in any case - how can a state that has existed without interruption since 1707 (and formed by a union of two states that were formed in the 10th century) be a "child" of a supranational organisation formed in the second half of the 20th century (which is the product of states coming together - ie if anything it is the child)?
The referendum showed that until the campaign starts the polls are only an indication. It appears to me that in Scotland both sides will be very much for staying in Europe for different reasons. SNP see Europe as an alternative to UK and the rest see staying in Europe as the key to keeping the UK together.
The referendum will be in essence Little Englanders trying to create their own Switzerland whatever the consequences.
I'm not sure why people who believe the UK can be part of the whole world, not just Europe, are frequently dismissed as "Little Englanders"; can you please explain?
Ok - enough - you ignore every point I've made and still call me a fool. I repeat Britain has given more aid to help refugees in the region than the rest of Europe COMBINED. Accepting people who've paid people smugglers and who may not even be genuine refugees is a pretty dim strategy. I suggest you head to Munich with your 'Welcome' banner'.
Take the time to read what I wrote and you'd know I support the British policy not the German one. I just don't think someone who has been tortured and hopes for a better life is merely avoiding "bad dentistry" - that is a disgraceful way to spin this families tragedy. The issue is linguistics not policy.
You're fixated on this phrase, but wasn't the "bad dentistry" he was escaping in Turkey?
I'm fixated on the phrase because words matter. To make out like he was putting his family on a raft to deal with a filling is wrong.
Words do matter. We can - and I think all do - accept that he has suffered a terrible tragedy and deserves our compassion as a fellow human being. All of us make mistakes. Rarely do they have such terminal consequences. I hope he finds - eventually - some peace.
It is, though, precisely because words do matter that we should not bandy words like "refugee" around willy nilly, when this is not warranted by the facts and when this is being said by the speaker in order to demand some special moral claim of the listener.
Ok - enough - you ignore every point I've made and still call me a fool. I repeat Britain has given more aid to help refugees in the region than the rest of Europe COMBINED. Accepting people who've paid people smugglers and who may not even be genuine refugees is a pretty dim strategy. I suggest you head to Munich with your 'Welcome' banner'.
Take the time to read what I wrote and you'd know I support the British policy not the German one. I just don't think someone who has been tortured and hopes for a better life is merely avoiding "bad dentistry" - that is a disgraceful way to spin this families tragedy. The issue is linguistics not policy.
You're fixated on this phrase, but wasn't the "bad dentistry" he was escaping in Turkey?
I'm fixated on the phrase because words matter. To make out like he was putting his family on a raft to deal with a filling is wrong.
Since 8:30 this morning you've been claiming that the "bad dentistry" comment referred to Daesh not Turkey. Can you please accept that wasn't the case?
Not true, I haven't. I said he wasn't receiving the medical care he needed in Turkey following losing everything in Syria and so hoped for a new life in Europe. What part of not receiving medical care in Turkey do you take to mean I meant Syria?
8.27am: "You call having all your teeth pulled out by ISIS "bad dentistry"?"
Or are you claiming that Daesh pulled out all his teeth in Turkey?
My concerns is that if we leave the EU, we'll join the EFTA and get none of the positive social policies. Hopefully an EU referendum will ensure that there's also a referendum on any future similar agreements.
If we were members of EFTA and there was a majority in the House of Commons for the "positive social policies" you refer to then Parliament could enact them.
You seem to want to impose measures from above because you can't get support for them from the voters.
On the subject of EU direction of travel, I disagree with most here it seems in that to me the direction of travel is going in our direction. This is based on a few things.
Primarily the eurocrisis which many view as reinforcing the need for integration to me has reinforced national beliefs over European beliefs, not just amongst the national leaders but most especially amongst the electorate. Anecdotally since 2001 I've been debating with a Dutch friend who would make Ken Clarke look like Nigel Farage. Everything for over a decade was all about how Europe is the answer to everything and the only problem in Europe was Britain. However in recent years more and more he views himself Dutch and does not view himself as a compatriot of the Greeks especially.
I think the idea that a United States of Europe coming around where the Dutch, Germans and Greeks are all of the same nation is further away now than it was a few years ago.
Secondly the example of the budget where it wasn't just frozen but cut. Ideally should have gone much further too, but that was a Rubicon crossed in the right direction.
Finally any renegotiation that Cameron negotiates (so long as its not lipstick on a pig) should move the EU reforms in our direction too. It is an initiative for the first time in my memory of reform being led by the UK rather than us trying to block/seek opt-outs from it.
My concerns is that if we leave the EU, we'll join the EFTA and get none of the positive social policies. Hopefully an EU referendum will ensure that there's also a referendum on any future similar agreements.
If we were members of EFTA and there was a majority in the House of Commons for the "positive social policies" you refer to then Parliament could enact them.
You seem to want to impose measures from above because you can't get support for them from the voters.
The left loves a bit of top down imposition if it justifies their self interest. And a bit of low level agitation and striking too. Always wondered why only Blair understood that getting the overwhelming majority left in the middle, the bourgeois rump, on board was the way to really govern.
Does it [Turkey] have dentists to treat 2.5 million refugees? No it doesn't.
People here are saying the upper limit on refugees we can accept is 10k but you think its racist to think 2.5 million refugees flooding the same nation aren't getting the medical etc treatment they need? Don't be a fool.
Saying I've only spoken about Syria is as intellectually honest as saying the UK has only taken 216 refugees.
Does it [Turkey] have dentists to treat 2.5 million refugees? No it doesn't.
People here are saying the upper limit on refugees we can accept is 10k but you think its racist to think 2.5 million refugees flooding the same nation aren't getting the medical etc treatment they need? Don't be a fool.
Saying I've only spoken about Syria is as intellectually honest as saying the UK has only taken 216 refugees.
You asked when you said it; I told you. If you would like to accept that your immediate reaction was a mistake, then we can move forward.
On the subject of EU direction of travel, I disagree with most here it seems in that to me the direction of travel is going in our direction. This is based on a few things.
Primarily the eurocrisis which many view as reinforcing the need for integration to me has reinforced national beliefs over European beliefs, not just amongst the national leaders but most especially amongst the electorate. Anecdotally since 2001 I've been debating with a Dutch friend who would make Ken Clarke look like Nigel Farage. Everything for over a decade was all about how Europe is the answer to everything and the only problem in Europe was Britain. However in recent years more and more he views himself Dutch and does not view himself as a compatriot of the Greeks especially.
I think the idea that a United States of Europe coming around where the Dutch, Germans and Greeks are all of the same nation is further away now than it was a few years ago.
Secondly the example of the budget where it wasn't just frozen but cut. Ideally should have gone much further too, but that was a Rubicon crossed in the right direction.
Finally any renegotiation that Cameron negotiates (so long as its not lipstick on a pig) should move the EU reforms in our direction too. It is an initiative for the first time in my memory of reform being led by the UK rather than us trying to block/seek opt-outs from it.
How do you address the Eurozone vote imbalance?
This is the most intractable issue in my eyes. My ideal would be QMV for Eurozone votes for Eurozone only rules and perhaps a form of double-QMV for EU-wide rules.
That however would give disproportionate power to nations outside the Eurozone so is unlikely to be agreed. If it is agreed that will be a major victory.
Does it [Turkey] have dentists to treat 2.5 million refugees? No it doesn't.
People here are saying the upper limit on refugees we can accept is 10k but you think its racist to think 2.5 million refugees flooding the same nation aren't getting the medical etc treatment they need? Don't be a fool.
Saying I've only spoken about Syria is as intellectually honest as saying the UK has only taken 216 refugees.
You asked when you said it; I told you. If you would like to accept that your immediate reaction was a mistake, then we can move forward.
No it wasn't. He had his teeth pulled by ISIS and it still wasn't resolved. To refer that as just "bad dentistry" is appalling.
Ok - enough - you ignore every point I've made and still call me a fool. I repeat Britain has given more aid to help refugees in the region than the rest of Europe COMBINED. Accepting people who've paid people smugglers and who may not even be genuine refugees is a pretty dim strategy. I suggest you head to Munich with your 'Welcome' banner'.
Take the time to read what I wrote and you'd know I support the British policy not the German one. I just don't think someone who has been tortured and hopes for a better life is merely avoiding "bad dentistry" - that is a disgraceful way to spin this families tragedy. The issue is linguistics not policy.
You're fixated on this phrase, but wasn't the "bad dentistry" he was escaping in Turkey?
I'm fixated on the phrase because words matter. To make out like he was putting his family on a raft to deal with a filling is wrong.
Words do matter. We can - and I think all do - accept that he has suffered a terrible tragedy and deserves our compassion as a fellow human being. All of us make mistakes. Rarely do they have such terminal consequences. I hope he finds - eventually - some peace.
It is, though, precisely because words do matter that we should not bandy words like "refugee" around willy nilly, when this is not warranted by the facts and when this is being said by the speaker in order to demand some special moral claim of the listener.
Flicking around my mainly left wing friends and work mates this week.. the mood re the Ref is definitely for an out..regardless of what the PM negotiates. The overall attitude was one of being brassed off with the number of edicts from Brussels and always being considered the rotten apple in the EU barrel.. as in ..let them continue without our funds...This was not the case just a year ago..
Does it [Turkey] have dentists to treat 2.5 million refugees? No it doesn't.
People here are saying the upper limit on refugees we can accept is 10k but you think its racist to think 2.5 million refugees flooding the same nation aren't getting the medical etc treatment they need? Don't be a fool.
Saying I've only spoken about Syria is as intellectually honest as saying the UK has only taken 216 refugees.
You asked when you said it; I told you. If you would like to accept that your immediate reaction was a mistake, then we can move forward.
No it wasn't. He had his teeth pulled by ISIS and it still wasn't resolved. To refer that as just "bad dentistry" is appalling.
If you're not going to accept your mistake even after it's been explained to you, I'm not sure there's any point.
Does it [Turkey] have dentists to treat 2.5 million refugees? No it doesn't.
People here are saying the upper limit on refugees we can accept is 10k but you think its racist to think 2.5 million refugees flooding the same nation aren't getting the medical etc treatment they need? Don't be a fool.
Saying I've only spoken about Syria is as intellectually honest as saying the UK has only taken 216 refugees.
You asked when you said it; I told you. If you would like to accept that your immediate reaction was a mistake, then we can move forward.
No it wasn't. He had his teeth pulled by ISIS and it still wasn't resolved. To refer that as just "bad dentistry" is appalling.
If you're not going to accept your mistake even after it's been explained to you, I'm not sure there's any point.
It's not a mistake. Apparently you think having your teeth pulled monstrously and then getting no treatment for it is perfectly acceptable. To me it isn't. A change in geography doesn't end the matter, only once treatment is received from the torture he underwent is it resolved.
Of course, smearing a man who has lost everything when you know nothing of his story except the snippets harvested from media reports is nothing but contemptible. In comfy, prosperous Northern Italian bars and English homes, the reality of being tortured by psycopaths, of seeing the town you lived in destroyed, your neighbours slaughtered, your entire life turned upside down and then the people you love most killed are - thankfully - things that you never have to worry about, let alone go through. How lucky we are to live such lives that allow us to pass judgement on those who have suffered such agonies.
Why didn't Canada - noted for its liberal immigration policies - grant him asylum?
Of course, smearing a man who has lost everything when you know nothing of his story except the snippets harvested from media reports is nothing but contemptible. In comfy, prosperous Northern Italian bars and English homes, the reality of being tortured by psycopaths, of seeing the town you lived in destroyed, your neighbours slaughtered, your entire life turned upside down and then the people you love most killed are - thankfully - things that you never have to worry about, let alone go through. How lucky we are to live such lives that allow us to pass judgement on those who have suffered such agonies.
Why didn't Canada - noted for its liberal immigration policies - grant him asylum?
Because of a clerical issue. The right paperwork wasn't filed. Bureaucracy not because he wasn't worth asylum.
This poll forms a basis for a 60:40 IN:OUT result. After Britain's miserliness and Germany / Merkel's lion-hearted gesture , I don't think there is a long queue to help Britain out. Hungary could be Britain's friend !
If Britain wants OUT, it deserves to be OUT and fetch for itself.
My view of Merkel has changed a thousand fold over the last week. Bayern Munich has given EUR 1.5m, Borussia Dortmund showing banners welcoming refugees. Brilliant !
Today's Germany is a different Germany.
Merkel has spent 0.35% of GDP on foreign aid, Cameron 0.72%
Yet Merkel is generous and Cameron a miser? Economically illiterate left as usual.
800,000 vs 216. The same as the last penalty shootout.
Britain is like Saudi Arabia. We will write the cheques but won't shake hands with them in case we catch some disease !
How much of the 0.72% is actually spent in Britain ?
Your figures are wrong - Germany has said it will take 800,00 - let's see what actually happens. Britain has already taken way more than 216 - I believe around 5,000. You're being silly . Cameron's approach is way more sensible as we only accept genuine refugees via the UN camps. Yesterday's poll showed strong public support for this approach. I guess you're thinking another 800,000 immigrants might give Labour the majority it didn't get in May.
800,000 ? I have no limits. Like there was no limit when Europeans felt they could go and settle anywhere they liked, e.g. America, South Africa, Australia. If anything, people all over the world were much poorer then than now. So affordability does not come into this.
Labour ? I am ashamed to say they have been so timid. What was the SPD response in Germany until Merkel's bold statement. Yes, she has shaken up the status quo. Where is the AfD now ? People standing in Munich railway station [in Bavaria , this ! ] and offering sweets, clothes, food etc. My faith in humanity has been uplifted.
If I was a German and lived in Germany, I could even vote for Merkel [ on the list system ]
Does it [Turkey] have dentists to treat 2.5 million refugees? No it doesn't.
People here are saying the upper limit on refugees we can accept is 10k but you think its racist to think 2.5 million refugees flooding the same nation aren't getting the medical etc treatment they need? Don't be a fool.
Saying I've only spoken about Syria is as intellectually honest as saying the UK has only taken 216 refugees.
You asked when you said it; I told you. If you would like to accept that your immediate reaction was a mistake, then we can move forward.
No it wasn't. He had his teeth pulled by ISIS and it still wasn't resolved. To refer that as just "bad dentistry" is appalling.
If you're not going to accept your mistake even after it's been explained to you, I'm not sure there's any point.
It's not a mistake. Apparently you think having your teeth pulled monstrously and then getting no treatment for it is perfectly acceptable. To me it isn't. A change in geography doesn't end the matter, only once treatment is received from the torture he underwent is it resolved.
It was a mistake to say that "bad dentistry" referred to the actions of Daesh. You've admitted that implicitly but refuse to accept it explicitly, merely moving the goalposts when challenged.
I was someone who was going to vote yes 100% but that has changed in the last few months. I am getting rather fed up of the Franco German stich up and its about time they listened to us rather than we listen to them.
I'll still probably vote yes because some of the BOO'ers are nigh on racist and that's not a good thing to be basing our membership on..
I'd urge you not to reject BOO simply because (as it has to be) it's a broad church.
I'm right of centre, and I've had to hold my nose and vote conservative despite it being home to a fair few homophobes/transphobes. The Innies have racists, homophobes and anti-semites too; you must know that!
If we voted out... the racists would start of on their next mantra.. repatriation. Its there for all to see if only their eyes were open. That's why I am most likely to vote yes..
So basically if I should consider all the relevant points of in and out and then decide to vote out I'm a RAYCIST. I will then apparently start demanding barbed wire windowed cattle trucks at mainline stations to repatriate undesirables that incidentally hold British passports to ensure a final solution is found to the " living space problem ?
Well...... It's a view I suppose?
I didn't say that, nor should you infer it. There are lots of racists in the BOO campaign, just look at UKIP, its full of them, mainly though not exclusively ex BNPers.
All your post on racism are the nasty white people on all other races,you haven't a fcuking clue.
Does it [Turkey] have dentists to treat 2.5 million refugees? No it doesn't.
People here are saying the upper limit on refugees we can accept is 10k but you think its racist to think 2.5 million refugees flooding the same nation aren't getting the medical etc treatment they need? Don't be a fool.
Saying I've only spoken about Syria is as intellectually honest as saying the UK has only taken 216 refugees.
You asked when you said it; I told you. If you would like to accept that your immediate reaction was a mistake, then we can move forward.
No it wasn't. He had his teeth pulled by ISIS and it still wasn't resolved. To refer that as just "bad dentistry" is appalling.
If you're not going to accept your mistake even after it's been explained to you, I'm not sure there's any point.
It's not a mistake. Apparently you think having your teeth pulled monstrously and then getting no treatment for it is perfectly acceptable. To me it isn't. A change in geography doesn't end the matter, only once treatment is received from the torture he underwent is it resolved.
The guy had money to pay people traffickers. But not, it seems, a dentist in Turkey?
Does it [Turkey] have dentists to treat 2.5 million refugees? No it doesn't.
People here are saying the upper limit on refugees we can accept is 10k but you think its racist to think 2.5 million refugees flooding the same nation aren't getting the medical etc treatment they need? Don't be a fool.
Saying I've only spoken about Syria is as intellectually honest as saying the UK has only taken 216 refugees.
You asked when you said it; I told you. If you would like to accept that your immediate reaction was a mistake, then we can move forward.
No it wasn't. He had his teeth pulled by ISIS and it still wasn't resolved. To refer that as just "bad dentistry" is appalling.
If you're not going to accept your mistake even after it's been explained to you, I'm not sure there's any point.
It's not a mistake. Apparently you think having your teeth pulled monstrously and then getting no treatment for it is perfectly acceptable. To me it isn't. A change in geography doesn't end the matter, only once treatment is received from the torture he underwent is it resolved.
It was a mistake to say that "bad dentistry" referred to the actions of Daesh. You've admitted that implicitly but refuse to accept it explicitly, merely moving the goalposts when challenged.
No it wasn't a mistake and is consistent with both legal and ethical principles. If I beat you up to the point you're left in a coma from which you later die then I am ethically (and under the right circumstances) legally guilty of your murder. Even if time and geography have changed in-between.
The cause of him needing treatment is ISIS. The fact that treatment in Turkey has not been received does not take away from the fact treatment is needed because of ISIS.
Of course, smearing a man who has lost everything when you know nothing of his story except the snippets harvested from media reports is nothing but contemptible. In comfy, prosperous Northern Italian bars and English homes, the reality of being tortured by psycopaths, of seeing the town you lived in destroyed, your neighbours slaughtered, your entire life turned upside down and then the people you love most killed are - thankfully - things that you never have to worry about, let alone go through. How lucky we are to live such lives that allow us to pass judgement on those who have suffered such agonies.
Why didn't Canada - noted for its liberal immigration policies - grant him asylum?
An application was never made for him, it was for his brother.
Does it [Turkey] have dentists to treat 2.5 million refugees? No it doesn't.
People here are saying the upper limit on refugees we can accept is 10k but you think its racist to think 2.5 million refugees flooding the same nation aren't getting the medical etc treatment they need? Don't be a fool.
Saying I've only spoken about Syria is as intellectually honest as saying the UK has only taken 216 refugees.
You asked when you said it; I told you. If you would like to accept that your immediate reaction was a mistake, then we can move forward.
No it wasn't. He had his teeth pulled by ISIS and it still wasn't resolved. To refer that as just "bad dentistry" is appalling.
If you're not going to accept your mistake even after it's been explained to you, I'm not sure there's any point.
It's not a mistake. Apparently you think having your teeth pulled monstrously and then getting no treatment for it is perfectly acceptable. To me it isn't. A change in geography doesn't end the matter, only once treatment is received from the torture he underwent is it resolved.
The guy had money to pay people traffickers. But not, it seems, a dentist in Turkey?
Just drop it.
Since you're such an expert how much do both cost?
Whilst I've never been a George Osborne fan, he gave quite an impressive performance on Marr this morning. He just needs to be more assertive about the constant interruptions and put these egotistical commentators in their place.
Watching the migrants/refugees enter Germany yesterday was quite revealing in the fact I did not see that many families. The vast majority were single men, some even from Pakistan. There appears to be a certain amount of "migrant tourism" just to add to the mix of what is becoming almost an impossible situation to handle.
Are we looking at the "Muslimification" of Northern Europe. There is trouble ahead. Hopefully I won't be around to see it.
PT The treatment was available in Turkey.. As MM has quite reasonably pointed pointed out .. he paid the traffickers .. why not a dentist.
The child died for Dental Care Tourism, it seems. There is so much to this story that really does not add up. Im not sure if the journalists reporting it just dont want it to add up. A narrative has been set, we cant let facts alter that narrative.
Some friendly advice on living in a mass immigration area and your white.
If you have trouble and call the police in which you think your in the right,don't bother relying on them for help or protection.
The best option is a idea by Thompson,the nice ethnic cleansing called white flight.
Crikey, don't start that hare running again. Last time we had days of people arguing that white flight in the UK doesn't exist. I'd sooner have perpetual AV and Scotland threads than that again.
Apparently ,according to my Italian friends who have had treatment there.. about 3kE for a mouthfull of implants.. and according to reports on the amount he paid to traffickers..about 7k US dollars or Euros
Does it [Turkey] have dentists to treat 2.5 million refugees? No it doesn't.
People here are saying the upper limit on refugees we can accept is 10k but you think its racist to think 2.5 million refugees flooding the same nation aren't getting the medical etc treatment they need? Don't be a fool.
Saying I've only spoken about Syria is as intellectually honest as saying the UK has only taken 216 refugees.
You asked when you said it; I told you. If you would like to accept that your immediate reaction was a mistake, then we can move forward.
No it wasn't. He had his teeth pulled by ISIS and it still wasn't resolved. To refer that as just "bad dentistry" is appalling.
If you're not going to accept your mistake even after it's been explained to you, I'm not sure there's any point.
It's not a mistake. Apparently you think having your teeth pulled monstrously and then getting no treatment for it is perfectly acceptable. To me it isn't. A change in geography doesn't end the matter, only once treatment is received from the torture he underwent is it resolved.
It was a mistake to say that "bad dentistry" referred to the actions of Daesh. You've admitted that implicitly but refuse to accept it explicitly, merely moving the goalposts when challenged.
No it wasn't a mistake and is consistent with both legal and ethical principles. If I beat you up to the point you're left in a coma from which you later die then I am ethically (and under the right circumstances) legally guilty of your murder. Even if time and geography have changed in-between.
The cause of him needing treatment is ISIS. The fact that treatment in Turkey has not been received does not take away from the fact treatment is needed because of ISIS.
Does it [Turkey] have dentists to treat 2.5 million refugees? No it doesn't.
People here are saying the upper limit on refugees we can accept is 10k but you think its racist to think 2.5 million refugees flooding the same nation aren't getting the medical etc treatment they need? Don't be a fool.
Saying I've only spoken about Syria is as intellectually honest as saying the UK has only taken 216 refugees.
You asked when you said it; I told you. If you would like to accept that your immediate reaction was a mistake, then we can move forward.
No it wasn't. He had his teeth pulled by ISIS and it still wasn't resolved. To refer that as just "bad dentistry" is appalling.
If you're not going to accept your mistake even after it's been explained to you, I'm not sure there's any point.
It's not a mistake. Apparently you think having your teeth pulled monstrously and then getting no treatment for it is perfectly acceptable. To me it isn't. A change in geography doesn't end the matter, only once treatment is received from the torture he underwent is it resolved.
It was a mistake to say that "bad dentistry" referred to the actions of Daesh. You've admitted that implicitly but refuse to accept it explicitly, merely moving the goalposts when challenged.
No it wasn't a mistake and is consistent with both legal and ethical principles. If I beat you up to the point you're left in a coma from which you later die then I am ethically (and under the right circumstances) legally guilty of your murder. Even if time and geography have changed in-between.
The cause of him needing treatment is ISIS. The fact that treatment in Turkey has not been received does not take away from the fact treatment is needed because of ISIS.
Apparently ,according to my Italian friends who have had treatment there.. about 3kE for a mouthfull of implants.. and according to reports on the amount he paid to traffickers..about 7k US dollars or Euros
So if that's true then dentistry wasn't the motivation was it?
Who said we ignore IS? We attack them: we attack their funding, we attack their troops, and we attack their ideology. None of these are easy, but are necessary.
But allying ourselves with any side in the hodgepodge mess that has been created over the last couple of years could do more harm than good, and sadly that includes the Kurds.
We also need an international vision of what the region might look like after this is all done and dusted: it's conceivable that Iraq and Syria's borders will not be as they are today. We should be talking urgently to neighbouring countries - especially Turkey - about this.
Do we need an 'international vision' of what Britain looks like? No, we don't - none of anyone else's business. What we need in Syria therefore is a SYRIAN vision of what SYRIA looks like. And if this includes Assad (who has been able to call 2 to 3 million to the streets at any time in this conflict - larger than any of the anti-Assad protests), then that is their business, not ours.
PT What words were wrong.. did he set sail to get dental treatment, according to his sister and which was available locally or not..
His sister did not say that was the only reason they were moving, she said that it was a factor. To me quite an understandable one, if I'd had my teeth pulled out by torturers and still hadn't received treatment for it I'd want to - but its not the only reason.
To make out like its "bad dentistry" is wrong. Having your teeth pulled out by ISIS is NOT dentistry.
PT The theme of your posts today say that the man desperately needed dental treatment because of the brutal treatment he recieved at the hands of ISiS... now you seem to be changing your mind ..
PT The theme of your posts today say that the man desperately needed dental treatment because of the brutal treatment he recieved at the hands of ISiS... now you seem to be changing your mind ..
No I am not. He explicitly does need treatment because of the brutal treatment he received at the hands of ISIS. Just the same as if I beat someone up and they later die from their injuries then I am a murderer.
The reason he needs treatment is ISIS. ISIS and ISIS alone are responsible for it.
If not ISIS pulling out his teeth why do you think he needs treatement?
Like there was no limit when Europeans felt they could go and settle anywhere they liked, e.g. America, South Africa, Australia. If anything, people all over the world were much poorer then than now. So affordability does not come into this.
Those examples worked out well for the natives, didn't they !
Who said we ignore IS? We attack them: we attack their funding, we attack their troops, and we attack their ideology. None of these are easy, but are necessary.
But allying ourselves with any side in the hodgepodge mess that has been created over the last couple of years could do more harm than good, and sadly that includes the Kurds.
We also need an international vision of what the region might look like after this is all done and dusted: it's conceivable that Iraq and Syria's borders will not be as they are today. We should be talking urgently to neighbouring countries - especially Turkey - about this.
Do we need an 'international vision' of what Britain looks like? No, we don't - none of anyone else's business. What we need in Syria therefore is a SYRIAN vision of what SYRIA looks like. And if this includes Assad (who has been able to call 2 to 3 million to the streets at any time in this conflict - larger than any of the anti-Assad protests), then that is their business, not ours.
Perhaps it would have been wise for the "great and good" in the UK to have kept their mouths firmly shut when it came to encouraging the so-called Arab Spring in general and the anti-Assad types in particular.
Maybe the hollowing out of the FCO that occurred under Blair might be reversed but it will take a long time if it is even possible. Meanwhile we have to suffer foreign policy made by emotion and who "emotes" the most.
PT The theme of your posts today say that the man desperately needed dental treatment because of the brutal treatment he recieved at the hands of ISiS... now you seem to be changing your mind ..
Estimates of his dental state have significantly varied between having all his teeth pulled out by ISIS to a 'damaged tooth'. He has a right to seek a better life - it's not easy in Turkey for Kurds. However, the rest of the world cannot be blamed for his grossly irresponsible act. He had waited 3 years, could he not have waited another couple of years till his children were a little more grown up? His wife couldn't swim and was afraid of water.
PT What words were wrong.. did he set sail to get dental treatment, according to his sister and which was available locally or not..
His sister did not say that was the only reason they were moving, she said that it was a factor. To me quite an understandable one, if I'd had my teeth pulled out by torturers and still hadn't received treatment for it I'd want to - but its not the only reason.
To make out like its "bad dentistry" is wrong. Having your teeth pulled out by ISIS is NOT dentistry.
Nobody said it was!
Seriously, when in a hole you should stop digging. You're damaging your reputation for future discussions.
PT The theme of your posts today say that the man desperately needed dental treatment because of the brutal treatment he recieved at the hands of ISiS... now you seem to be changing your mind ..
Estimates of his dental state have significantly varied between having all his teeth pulled out by ISIS to a 'damaged tooth'. He has a right to seek a better life - it's not easy in Turkey for Kurds. However, the rest of the world cannot be blamed for his grossly irresponsible act. He had waited 3 years, could he not have waited another couple of years till his children were a little more grown up? His wife couldn't swim and was afraid of water.
Any trauma to his gums would not be permanent, in the sense that he now just has no teeth and would need to use false ones that can be taken out, costs a couple of hundred dollars, or have implants.
Again this all sounds not right. If he had really had all his teeth pulled out, this would be evidence of torture and facilitate him getting refugee status? I understand it is the UNHCR in the camps that determine refugee status.
It's not right. The only thing that seems to be right is that his family, which includes some small children are now dead.
PT The theme of your posts today say that the man desperately needed dental treatment because of the brutal treatment he recieved at the hands of ISiS... now you seem to be changing your mind ..
Estimates of his dental state have significantly varied between having all his teeth pulled out by ISIS to a 'damaged tooth'. He has a right to seek a better life - it's not easy in Turkey for Kurds. However, the rest of the world cannot be blamed for his grossly irresponsible act. He had waited 3 years, could he not have waited another couple of years till his children were a little more grown up? His wife couldn't swim and was afraid of water.
Why indeed? The thought processes of someone who has lived through torture, mass murder, devastation and displacement are hard to fathom, are they not? Thank God we will never be placed in such a situation or have to make the decisions that man had to make - not just the last, terribly misguided, deadly one, but all those that went before from the day war broke out in his country.
PT If having his teeth fixed anywhere but Turkey is not an issue..then why did he pay traffickers twice. ..to be given a leaking dinghy..twice.. and then put his family on board.. Must have been one hell of a toothache, which a qualified Turkish dentist could have probably fixed within an hour..
Some friendly advice on living in a mass immigration area and your white.
If you have trouble and call the police in which you think your in the right,don't bother relying on them for help or protection.
The best option is a idea by Thompson,the nice ethnic cleansing called white flight.
What if you are a white immigrant?
Can't be bothered with you trying to take the p!$$,if you had to go through what I did last night and realised the outcome,then you might be abit more thoughtful.
Who said we ignore IS? We attack them: we attack their funding, we attack their troops, and we attack their ideology. None of these are easy, but are necessary.
But allying ourselves with any side in the hodgepodge mess that has been created over the last couple of years could do more harm than good, and sadly that includes the Kurds.
We also need an international vision of what the region might look like after this is all done and dusted: it's conceivable that Iraq and Syria's borders will not be as they are today. We should be talking urgently to neighbouring countries - especially Turkey - about this.
Do we need an 'international vision' of what Britain looks like? No, we don't - none of anyone else's business. What we need in Syria therefore is a SYRIAN vision of what SYRIA looks like. And if this includes Assad (who has been able to call 2 to 3 million to the streets at any time in this conflict - larger than any of the anti-Assad protests), then that is their business, not ours.
Better an 'international vision' than one from your best mate Putin, who allies himself with the mass-murderer sicko Assad.
Some friendly advice on living in a mass immigration area and your white.
If you have trouble and call the police in which you think your in the right,don't bother relying on them for help or protection.
The best option is a idea by Thompson,the nice ethnic cleansing called white flight.
What if you are a white immigrant?
Can't be bothered with you trying to take the p!$$,if you had to go through what I did last night and realised the outcome,then you might be abit more thoughtful.
Its amazing how testy Kippers get at any suggestion of racism in the party, of course none of the half a million BNP votes that the party lost at GE 2015 went to UKIP did they.
Some friendly advice on living in a mass immigration area and your white.
If you have trouble and call the police in which you think your in the right,don't bother relying on them for help or protection.
The best option is a idea by Thompson,the nice ethnic cleansing called white flight.
What if you are a white immigrant?
Can't be bothered with you trying to take the p!$$,if you had to go through what I did last night and realised the outcome,then you might be abit more thoughtful.
Its amazing how testy Kippers get at any suggestion of racism in the party, of course none of the half a million BNP votes that the party lost at GE 2015 went to UKIP did they.
Some friendly advice on living in a mass immigration area and your white.
If you have trouble and call the police in which you think your in the right,don't bother relying on them for help or protection.
The best option is a idea by Thompson,the nice ethnic cleansing called white flight.
What if you are a white immigrant?
Can't be bothered with you trying to take the p!$$,if you had to go through what I did last night and realised the outcome,then you might be abit more thoughtful.
Its amazing how testy Kippers get at any suggestion of racism in the party, of course none of the half a million BNP votes that the party lost at GE 2015 went to UKIP did they.
Western nations are not merely ignoring Muslim persecution of Christians in the Middle East, they are actively supporting it by sponsoring "moderate" rebels who in reality are as "radical" and anti-Western as the Islamic State.
Some friendly advice on living in a mass immigration area and your white.
If you have trouble and call the police in which you think your in the right,don't bother relying on them for help or protection.
The best option is a idea by Thompson,the nice ethnic cleansing called white flight.
What if you are a white immigrant?
Can't be bothered with you trying to take the p!$$,if you had to go through what I did last night and realised the outcome,then you might be abit more thoughtful.
Mr. Johnno, If only you had put quote marks around the word "white" in your original post you would have been safe. However, you now find yourself caught in the trap of complaining about the police response to "difficult groups" framed in a way that paints you as a racist. As such you will find no sympathy on here, well not from certain posters you won't.
However, take your kids out and drown them through your culpable recklessness and those same posters will be on here with pleas of mitigation faster than you can say hypocrisy.
Meanwhile, as I suggested earlier, talking about social problems caused by immigrants and the idea of "white flight" on this site is only going to end in tedium at best and high blood pressure at worst.
Is it true that the father bought only one life jacket, which he was wearing?
How many were available? If there was only an adult one, then it would not have fitted the children, or even his wife. I doubt the people smugglers have a large room full of jackets of different sizes for people to try on: more likely to be whaatever's thurst into their hands in response for a few notes.
This is getting faintly ridiculous. There's so much we don't know, and so many rumours. If it did happen, perhaps it was thoughtless idiocy, or perhaps it was utterly an sensible thing that you or I would have done, had we been unfortunate enough to be in that situation.
Some friendly advice on living in a mass immigration area and your white.
If you have trouble and call the police in which you think your in the right,don't bother relying on them for help or protection.
The best option is a idea by Thompson,the nice ethnic cleansing called white flight.
What if you are a white immigrant?
Can't be bothered with you trying to take the p!$$,if you had to go through what I did last night and realised the outcome,then you might be abit more thoughtful.
Mr. Johnno, If only you had put quote marks around the word "white" in your original post you would have been safe. However, you now find yourself caught in the trap of complaining about the police response to "difficult groups" framed in a way that paints you as a racist. As such you will find no sympathy on here, well not from certain posters you won't.
However, take your kids out and drown them through your culpable recklessness and those same posters will be on here with pleas of mitigation faster than you can say hypocrisy.
Meanwhile, as I suggested earlier, talking about social problems caused by immigrants and the idea of "white flight" on this site is only going to end in tedium at best and high blood pressure at worst.
Good post Mr HurstLlama,Some posters on here use the word 'reality' what they need is abit of realism.
The ferry from Budrum to Kos is 45 mins,10 Euro.,take the ferry and then leap off into shallow waters at the dock side with the ferry life belts..insane but slightly safer..
Western nations are not merely ignoring Muslim persecution of Christians in the Middle East, they are actively supporting it by sponsoring "moderate" rebels who in reality are as "radical" and anti-Western as the Islamic State.
This will probably agitate you more, I dug up an article from David Selbourne all the way from 2008, quite disturbing:
"If such war is under way, there are ten good reasons why, as things stand, Islam will not be defeated in it.
1) The first is the extent of political division in the non-Muslim world about what is afoot.
2) The second reason why, as things stand, Islam will not be defeated is that the strengths of the world community of Muslims are being underestimated, and the nature of Islam misunderstood.
3) Indeed, the third reason why Islam will not be defeated, as things stand, is the low level of Western leadership, in particular in the United States.
4) Next is the contribution to the disarray of Western policy-making being made by the egotistical competitiveness, and in some cases hysterics, of 'experts' and commentators on Islam.
5) The fifth disablement is to be found in the confusion of 'progressives' about the Islamic advance.
6) The sixth reason for Islam's growing strength is the vicarious satisfaction felt by many non-Muslims at America's reverses.
7) The seventh reason lies in the moral poverty of the West's, and especially America's, own value system." Ect ect ect.
Surbiton, your vision of a world without frontiers, like all utopian schemes, can only be achieved through tyranny, because it requires people to act contrary to their nature. People are attached to their land and country, and resist attempts to breach their borders.
As CS Lewis put it, the worst type of tyranny is the one that believes it's acting for the good of its victims.
Who said we ignore IS? We attack them: we attack their funding, we attack their troops, and we attack their ideology. None of these are easy, but are necessary.
But allying ourselves with any side in the hodgepodge mess that has been created over the last couple of years could do more harm than good, and sadly that includes the Kurds.
We also need an international vision of what the region might look like after this is all done and dusted: it's conceivable that Iraq and Syria's borders will not be as they are today. We should be talking urgently to neighbouring countries - especially Turkey - about this.
Do we need an 'international vision' of what Britain looks like? No, we don't - none of anyone else's business. What we need in Syria therefore is a SYRIAN vision of what SYRIA looks like. And if this includes Assad (who has been able to call 2 to 3 million to the streets at any time in this conflict - larger than any of the anti-Assad protests), then that is their business, not ours.
Better an 'international vision' than one from your best mate Putin, who allies himself with the mass-murderer sicko Assad.
Quite so. The vision should not be Russia's, nor the US' (who ally themselves with armed Islamist terrorist groups - now set to include Al Qaeda), nor the Saudis, but Syria's. Which is why it's not acceptable for the US to say 'any solution must not include Assad' - who the f*** are you to say that?
Is it true that the father bought only one life jacket, which he was wearing?
How many were available? If there was only an adult one, then it would not have fitted the children, or even his wife. I doubt the people smugglers have a large room full of jackets of different sizes for people to try on: more likely to be whaatever's thurst into their hands in response for a few notes.
This is getting faintly ridiculous. There's so much we don't know, and so many rumours. If it did happen, perhaps it was thoughtless idiocy, or perhaps it was utterly an sensible thing that you or I would have done, had we been unfortunate enough to be in that situation.
Hi wife couldn't swim, and was afraid of water. If there was one jacket available, even Pavarotti size, it could and should have been lashed around her.
Who said we ignore IS? We attack them: we attack their funding, we attack their troops, and we attack their ideology. None of these are easy, but are necessary.
But allying ourselves with any side in the hodgepodge mess that has been created over the last couple of years could do more harm than good, and sadly that includes the Kurds.
We also need an international vision of what the region might look like after this is all done and dusted: it's conceivable that Iraq and Syria's borders will not be as they are today. We should be talking urgently to neighbouring countries - especially Turkey - about this.
Do we need an 'international vision' of what Britain looks like? No, we don't - none of anyone else's business. What we need in Syria therefore is a SYRIAN vision of what SYRIA looks like. And if this includes Assad (who has been able to call 2 to 3 million to the streets at any time in this conflict - larger than any of the anti-Assad protests), then that is their business, not ours.
Better an 'international vision' than one from your best mate Putin, who allies himself with the mass-murderer sicko Assad.
Quite so. The vision should not be Russia's, nor the US' (who ally themselves with armed Islamist terrorist groups - now set to include Al Qaeda), nor the Saudis, but Syria's. Which is why it's not acceptable for the US to say 'any solution must not include Assad' - who the f*** are you to say that?
You can say that on here, knowing very well that both Russia and Iran are buying influence with Assad.
Still, your support for the chemical-weapons using, mass murderer war criminal Assad has no bounds, does it?
PT If having his teeth fixed anywhere but Turkey is not an issue..then why did he pay traffickers twice. ..to be given a leaking dinghy..twice.. and then put his family on board.. Must have been one hell of a toothache, which a qualified Turkish dentist could have probably fixed within an hour..
Or its more complicated than only being about his teeth and he thought his family would have a better life in Europe?
Is it true that the father bought only one life jacket, which he was wearing?
How many were available? If there was only an adult one, then it would not have fitted the children, or even his wife. I doubt the people smugglers have a large room full of jackets of different sizes for people to try on: more likely to be whaatever's thurst into their hands in response for a few notes.
This is getting faintly ridiculous. There's so much we don't know, and so many rumours. If it did happen, perhaps it was thoughtless idiocy, or perhaps it was utterly an sensible thing that you or I would have done, had we been unfortunate enough to be in that situation.
Hi wife couldn't swim, and was afraid of water. If there was one jacket available, even Pavarotti size, it could and should have been lashed around her.
I refer the honourable gentleman to my previous answer. You might be right. You might be wrong. We cannot know with the information - and as you should be well aware of - misinformation - that we have at the moment.
Judging people's actions after an event has to be done with care. With what we know - or think we know - at the moment, I'd be much more critical of his decision to get in the boat again than anything to do with life jackets.
PT If having his teeth fixed anywhere but Turkey is not an issue..then why did he pay traffickers twice. ..to be given a leaking dinghy..twice.. and then put his family on board.. Must have been one hell of a toothache, which a qualified Turkish dentist could have probably fixed within an hour..
I don't know why he acted as he did. But, he deserves our sympathy. We all mistakes. Any one of our mistakes could have horrific consequences.
OT I've just been watching C4's It Was Alright In The 70s. It's the funniest and most unPC show I've seen in decades. Lots of the most OTT TV show clips put together - honestly, I've been LOL for an hour and tempted to watch it all over again.
As Owen Jones said on Marr, Cameron cannot rely on the left to vote to remain after the way the EU took care of vested interests rather than the people of Greece, and the total lack of a coherent response to the Syrian refugees.
These issues have pushed me into the Leave camp on principle.
Who said we ignore IS? We attack them: we attack their funding, we attack their troops, and we attack their ideology. None of these are easy, but are necessary.
But allying ourselves with any side in the hodgepodge mess that has been created over the last couple of years could do more harm than good, and sadly that includes the Kurds.
We also need an international vision of what the region might look like after this is all done and dusted: it's conceivable that Iraq and Syria's borders will not be as they are today. We should be talking urgently to neighbouring countries - especially Turkey - about this.
Do we need an 'international vision' of what Britain looks like? No, we don't - none of anyone else's business. What we need in Syria therefore is a SYRIAN vision of what SYRIA looks like. And if this includes Assad (who has been able to call 2 to 3 million to the streets at any time in this conflict - larger than any of the anti-Assad protests), then that is their business, not ours.
Better an 'international vision' than one from your best mate Putin, who allies himself with the mass-murderer sicko Assad.
Quite so. The vision should not be Russia's, nor the US' (who ally themselves with armed Islamist terrorist groups - now set to include Al Qaeda), nor the Saudis, but Syria's. Which is why it's not acceptable for the US to say 'any solution must not include Assad' - who the f*** are you to say that?
You can say that on here, knowing very well that both Russia and Iran are buying influence with Assad.
Still, your support for the chemical-weapons using, mass murderer war criminal Assad has no bounds, does it?
You seem quite upset that your tall tales don't seem to have quite the pull they once had. Oh well.
Who said we ignore IS? We attack them: we attack their funding, we attack their troops, and we attack their ideology. None of these are easy, but are necessary.
But allying ourselves with any side in the hodgepodge mess that has been created over the last couple of years could do more harm than good, and sadly that includes the Kurds.
We also need an international vision of what the region might look like after this is all done and dusted: it's conceivable that Iraq and Syria's borders will not be as they are today. We should be talking urgently to neighbouring countries - especially Turkey - about this.
Do we need an 'international vision' of what Britain looks like? No, we don't - none of anyone else's business. What we need in Syria therefore is a SYRIAN vision of what SYRIA looks like. And if this includes Assad (who has been able to call 2 to 3 million to the streets at any time in this conflict - larger than any of the anti-Assad protests), then that is their business, not ours.
Better an 'international vision' than one from your best mate Putin, who allies himself with the mass-murderer sicko Assad.
Quite so. The vision should not be Russia's, nor the US' (who ally themselves with armed Islamist terrorist groups - now set to include Al Qaeda), nor the Saudis, but Syria's. Which is why it's not acceptable for the US to say 'any solution must not include Assad' - who the f*** are you to say that?
You can say that on here, knowing very well that both Russia and Iran are buying influence with Assad.
Still, your support for the chemical-weapons using, mass murderer war criminal Assad has no bounds, does it?
You seem quite upset that your tall tales don't seem to have quite pull they once had. Oh well.
Nothing's tall about them. I'm quite satisfied that yesterday showed fairly conclusively that Assad was responsible for the Sarin attacks on his own citizens in 2013.
Whereas your tinfoil-hattery was shown up for what it was: just blind, regurgitated pro-Putin propaganda.
PT We have now established that it was not because of his dental problem.. in spite of his sister stating this..He was not being persecuted or even threatened by his former torturers. He just wanted a better life in Europe...so he bundled his non swimming family into a leaking dinghy at night,twice.. only one life jacket apparently. They all perished as a result of his actions.The man was an economic migrant at this stage... not a war refugee.. and that was probably why his applications were refused...
PT We have now established that it was not because of his dental problem.. in spite of his sister stating this..He was not being persecuted or even threatened by his former torturers. He just wanted a better life in Europe...so he bundled his non swimming family into a leaking dinghy at night,twice.. only one life jacket apparently. They all perished as a result of his actions.The man was an economic migrant at this stage... not a war refugee.. and that was probably why his applications were refused...
No the Canadians have said his brothers application was refused because the paperwork was incomplete. His paperwork was not filed.
PT If having his teeth fixed anywhere but Turkey is not an issue..then why did he pay traffickers twice. ..to be given a leaking dinghy..twice.. and then put his family on board.. Must have been one hell of a toothache, which a qualified Turkish dentist could have probably fixed within an hour..
I don't know why he acted as he did. But, he deserves our sympathy. We all mistakes. Any one of our mistakes could have horrific consequences.
I think the frustration of other pb'ers on this is around the misrepresentation of the facts about this tragic case from which a mass emotional reaction has resulted and precipitated a rapid shift in government policy. There is no telling where that will end.
Rapid shifts in policy in response to emotional reactions to dramatic stories rarely turn out to be the right moves in the long run.
Nothing's tall about them. I'm quite satisfied that yesterday showed fairly conclusively that Assad was responsible for the Sarin attacks on his own citizens in 2013.
Whereas your tinfoil-hattery was shown up for what it was: just blind, regurgitated pro-Putin propaganda.
Hahaha, wondered when you'd use 'tinfoil hat' - can we truly say you've scraped the barrel now, or are there further depths for you to plumb?
I never discussed the 'Sarin' attack on Assad yesterday, we discussed his so called chlorine attacks. I'm happy to discuss the former.
'Twenty-eight of the 36 victims – nearly four-fifths of the sample – said they had experienced loss of consciousness, according to the Sep. 16 U.N. report. The second most frequent symptom was difficulty breathing, which was reported by 22 of the 36, followed by blurred vision, which was suffered by 15 of them. But only five of the 36 reported miosis, or constricted pupils.
That fact is an indication that the exposure to Sarin was actually minimal or nonexistent for 31 of the 36, or 86 percent of the sample. Miosis is the most basic and reliable indicator of nerve gas poisoning, according to chemical weapons literature and specialists who analysed the report.'
PT We have now established that it was not because of his dental problem.. in spite of his sister stating this..He was not being persecuted or even threatened by his former torturers. He just wanted a better life in Europe...so he bundled his non swimming family into a leaking dinghy at night,twice.. only one life jacket apparently. They all perished as a result of his actions.The man was an economic migrant at this stage... not a war refugee.. and that was probably why his applications were refused...
No the Canadians have said his brothers application was refused because the paperwork was incomplete. His paperwork was not filed.
Which was another inconsistency, as he said he had applied. Either that or his sister said she'd applied for him when she hadn't, which I'm not inclined to believe.
Nothing's tall about them. I'm quite satisfied that yesterday showed fairly conclusively that Assad was responsible for the Sarin attacks on his own citizens in 2013.
Whereas your tinfoil-hattery was shown up for what it was: just blind, regurgitated pro-Putin propaganda.
Hahaha, wondered when you'd use 'tinfoil hat' - can we truly say you've scraped the barrel now, or are there further depths for you to plumb?
I never discussed the 'Sarin' attack on Assad yesterday, we discussed his so called chlorine attacks. I'm happy to discuss the former.
'Twenty-eight of the 36 victims – nearly four-fifths of the sample – said they had experienced loss of consciousness, according to the Sep. 16 U.N. report. The second most frequent symptom was difficulty breathing, which was reported by 22 of the 36, followed by blurred vision, which was suffered by 15 of them. But only five of the 36 reported miosis, or constricted pupils.
That fact is an indication that the exposure to Sarin was actually minimal or nonexistent for 31 of the 36, or 86 percent of the sample. Miosis is the most basic and reliable indicator of nerve gas poisoning, according to chemical weapons literature and specialists who analysed the report.'
PT We have now established that it was not because of his dental problem.. in spite of his sister stating this..He was not being persecuted or even threatened by his former torturers. He just wanted a better life in Europe...so he bundled his non swimming family into a leaking dinghy at night,twice.. only one life jacket apparently. They all perished as a result of his actions.The man was an economic migrant at this stage... not a war refugee.. and that was probably why his applications were refused...
No the Canadians have said his brothers application was refused because the paperwork was incomplete. His paperwork was not filed.
Which was another inconsistency, as he said he had applied. Either that or his sister said she'd applied for him when she hadn't, which I'm not inclined to believe.
Comments
If Britain is Europe's problem child, it says more about her parenting skills than our behaviour. We are the child that follows all the rules, that does all the homework, that pays keep out of its part time job at mcdonalds. We are the child that, when left alone for the weekend, dont invite all our mates in and trash the place. We are the child that doesnt buy an iphone six on an expensive contract we knew we couldnt afford. We are the child that didnt take on the paperround and expect his parents to do his deliveries when he felt a bit under the weather.
Yes, we are the problem child.
I have a bit of a problem with the notion of us being a "child" in any case - how can a state that has existed without interruption since 1707 (and formed by a union of two states that were formed in the 10th century) be a "child" of a supranational organisation formed in the second half of the 20th century (which is the product of states coming together - ie if anything it is the child)?
It is, though, precisely because words do matter that we should not bandy words like "refugee" around willy nilly, when this is not warranted by the facts and when this is being said by the speaker in order to demand some special moral claim of the listener.
Or are you claiming that Daesh pulled out all his teeth in Turkey?
You seem to want to impose measures from above because you can't get support for them from the voters.
So he decided to break the rules.
That however would give disproportionate power to nations outside the Eurozone so is unlikely to be agreed. If it is agreed that will be a major victory.
The overall attitude was one of being brassed off with the number of edicts from Brussels and always being considered the rotten apple in the EU barrel.. as in ..let them continue without our funds...This was not the case just a year ago..
'800,000 ? I have no limits.'
You've managed to outdo Cooper,Burnham & Corbyn and got the virtue-signalling award for yourself
How many refugees will you be accommodating?
Genuine question: what position do your wider family take on the EU referendum? Which way are they likely to vote?
Just drop it.
If you have trouble and call the police in which you think your in the right,don't bother relying on them for help or protection.
The best option is a idea by Thompson,the nice ethnic cleansing called white flight.
The cause of him needing treatment is ISIS. The fact that treatment in Turkey has not been received does not take away from the fact treatment is needed because of ISIS.
Watching the migrants/refugees enter Germany yesterday was quite revealing in the fact I did not see that many families. The vast majority were single men, some even from Pakistan. There appears to be a certain amount of "migrant tourism" just to add to the mix of what is becoming almost an impossible situation to handle.
Are we looking at the "Muslimification" of Northern Europe. There is trouble ahead. Hopefully I won't be around to see it.
To make out like its "bad dentistry" is wrong. Having your teeth pulled out by ISIS is NOT dentistry.
The reason he needs treatment is ISIS. ISIS and ISIS alone are responsible for it.
If not ISIS pulling out his teeth why do you think he needs treatement?
Maybe the hollowing out of the FCO that occurred under Blair might be reversed but it will take a long time if it is even possible. Meanwhile we have to suffer foreign policy made by emotion and who "emotes" the most.
Seriously, when in a hole you should stop digging. You're damaging your reputation for future discussions.
Again this all sounds not right. If he had really had all his teeth pulled out, this would be evidence of torture and facilitate him getting refugee status? I understand it is the UNHCR in the camps that determine refugee status.
It's not right. The only thing that seems to be right is that his family, which includes some small children are now dead.
Must have been one hell of a toothache, which a qualified Turkish dentist could have probably fixed within an hour..
Western nations are not merely ignoring Muslim persecution of Christians in the Middle East, they are actively supporting it by sponsoring "moderate" rebels who in reality are as "radical" and anti-Western as the Islamic State.
However, take your kids out and drown them through your culpable recklessness and those same posters will be on here with pleas of mitigation faster than you can say hypocrisy.
Meanwhile, as I suggested earlier, talking about social problems caused by immigrants and the idea of "white flight" on this site is only going to end in tedium at best and high blood pressure at worst.
This is getting faintly ridiculous. There's so much we don't know, and so many rumours. If it did happen, perhaps it was thoughtless idiocy, or perhaps it was utterly an sensible thing that you or I would have done, had we been unfortunate enough to be in that situation.
http://alanpetersworld.blogspot.gr/2008/12/why-west-will-lose-to-islam.html
"If such war is under way, there are ten good reasons why, as things stand, Islam will not be defeated in it.
1) The first is the extent of political division in the non-Muslim world about what is afoot.
2) The second reason why, as things stand, Islam will not be defeated is that the strengths of the world community of Muslims are being underestimated, and the nature of Islam misunderstood.
3) Indeed, the third reason why Islam will not be defeated, as things stand, is the low level of Western leadership, in particular in the United States.
4) Next is the contribution to the disarray of Western policy-making being made by the egotistical competitiveness, and in some cases hysterics, of 'experts' and commentators on Islam.
5) The fifth disablement is to be found in the confusion of 'progressives' about the Islamic advance.
6) The sixth reason for Islam's growing strength is the vicarious satisfaction felt by many non-Muslims at America's reverses.
7) The seventh reason lies in the moral poverty of the West's, and especially America's, own value system."
Ect ect ect.
As CS Lewis put it, the worst type of tyranny is the one that believes it's acting for the good of its victims.
Still, your support for the chemical-weapons using, mass murderer war criminal Assad has no bounds, does it?
Judging people's actions after an event has to be done with care. With what we know - or think we know - at the moment, I'd be much more critical of his decision to get in the boat again than anything to do with life jackets.
http://www.channel4.com/programmes/it-was-alright-in-the/on-demand/61558-001
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/dad-drowned-syrian-boy-aylan-6376651
"My first son died from the high waves. I was obliged to leave him to save the other one," he said
and then
“I looked for my wife and children on the beach but couldn't find them.
“I thought they had run away out of fear and I went back to Bodrum.
“When they did not come to our meeting point I went to hospital and learnt the bitter truth.”
The story is leakier than the dinghy.
These issues have pushed me into the Leave camp on principle.
Whereas your tinfoil-hattery was shown up for what it was: just blind, regurgitated pro-Putin propaganda.
I'm pro-migration and I'd (for once) mentioned it if polled. Quite frankly I'm curious about the 29% who don't think its an issue.
Rapid shifts in policy in response to emotional reactions to dramatic stories rarely turn out to be the right moves in the long run.
I never discussed the 'Sarin' attack on Assad yesterday, we discussed his so called chlorine attacks. I'm happy to discuss the former.
'Twenty-eight of the 36 victims – nearly four-fifths of the sample – said they had experienced loss of consciousness, according to the Sep. 16 U.N. report. The second most frequent symptom was difficulty breathing, which was reported by 22 of the 36, followed by blurred vision, which was suffered by 15 of them. But only five of the 36 reported miosis, or constricted pupils.
That fact is an indication that the exposure to Sarin was actually minimal or nonexistent for 31 of the 36, or 86 percent of the sample. Miosis is the most basic and reliable indicator of nerve gas poisoning, according to chemical weapons literature and specialists who analysed the report.'
In summary, the opposition hand-picked 'severe' victims of the 'Sarin' attack didn't even CLAIM the main symptoms of sarin poisoning, let alone suffer them. That's according to MrTimT's friend by the way. http://www.counterpunch.org/2014/05/07/u-n-probe-chief-doubtful-on-syria-sarin-exposure-claims/
Are there any depths you'll not plumb to back up Putin? How many people have to die before you think: "Hmmm, perhaps I'm doing wrong here?"
Yet I bet Richard Seymour is crying for those migrants, with big crocodile tears. What a berk!
Hmm. Writing post-race piece now. May be delayed due to stewards' inquiry. [Not into me, I hasten to add].