4 months ago we were reminded that opinion polls can be a load of crap! Just saying.
Yes but who is going to die in the ditch to save the UK from leaving the EU.
The SNP Blair Cameron and Clegg , with big business , banks. That will make a lot of people puke.
I agree - the EU is re-defining the word 'dysfunctional' these days. Out of touch and maybe out of time. If so then let the people decide. Democracy is still a good thing, thank heavens.
Referenda is not the usual way in the past for the UK. Usually used when the Government of the day can not make a decision as in 1975. However it always now seems to be used for Constitutional Change, such as devolution.
Blair might have won a referndum on joining the euro in 97 to 98. So not a good thing.
Representative democracy is preferable in my opinion in most instances. As MP`s can use their own judgement in the exercise of their powers, even if their views are not reflective of a majority of voters at that time. This certainy happened to stop Blair with the Euro.
Blair would definitely have won a three-line-whip vote to join the euro in 97 or 98. It was the perceived need for a referenda which prevented us from joining the euro ultimately, so a very good thing.
James Goldsmith should be a national hero, really.
I think more and more of us are coming to the opinion that the EU is a negative influence on the UK and becoming more so. It doesn't seem in the slightest bit capable of securing its own borders - surely the first priority of government anywhere - as their currency falls and their economy is the only region in the world still not recovered from the last recession. The attitude of their politicians is that the grand project is more important than even their own economies, which as they flounder need the UK to contribute even more to support their basket case of an economy.
I've moved from the wait-and-see column to a definite Leave in the past few months, despite having worked in the EU and elsewhere abroad for perhaps half of my working life. It's clear that there's no Status Quo and no Associate Membership on offer, so it's either full steam ahead or quit while we have the chance
I think the lack of a credible Associate Membership - i.e. the clear indications that the Euro area is simply going to make all the decisions regardless of the others' wishes or interests - has pushed me completely into the Leave category. Full membership is looking more and more like a long suicide.
It's the same problem as "remain in UK" has for the Scots. Your opponents can (and will) come back for another bite at the cherry.
Meanwhile referenda themselves undermind representative democracy as a concept. We no longer elect MPs to govern us, we elect them to do so except when they are too frightened to do so. And however much HM the Queen tells us to think carefully before we vote, many people will vote with the bile in their hearts.
In many nations Parliament determines the law, referenda determine the constitution. This way party temporary politics doesn't determine permanent constitutional change. We seem to be evolving into that principle - major constitutional changes take referenda, policies are for Parliament.
It is for this reason I'd oppose eg a referenda on the death penalty. This is a political issue not a constitutional one.
Famously, the UK doesn't have a written constitution. Whether an independent Scotland would want one is an interesting question - one I suspect the SNP rather wasn't asked.
I would be happy with your position if I thought for one moment that I didn't need my PPE degree to understand it
SNP stated clearly that there would be a written constitution in an independent Scotland.
''I don't think people are bothered about colour or creed they're concerned about numbers. It's called realism. ''
Numbers maybe, but I think quality is a greater concern. Voters are concerned about people who either contribute nothing, use public services without having paid in, don;t obey the law or don't integrate with the general population.
I was someone who was going to vote yes 100% but that has changed in the last few months. I am getting rather fed up of the Franco German stich up and its about time they listened to us rather than we listen to them.
I'll still probably vote yes because some of the BOO'ers are nigh on racist and that's not a good thing to be basing our membership on..
I'd urge you not to reject BOO simply because (as it has to be) it's a broad church.
I'm right of centre, and I've had to hold my nose and vote conservative despite it being home to a fair few homophobes/transphobes. The Innies have racists, homophobes and anti-semites too; you must know that!
If we voted out... the racists would start of on their next mantra.. repatriation. Its there for all to see if only their eyes were open. That's why I am most likely to vote yes..
No they wouldn't. That is just scare mongering of the worst kind. I know you are a long term Europhile but it is sad to see you resorting to such ludicrous and unfounded smears. Mind you the IN side have pretty much nothing else in their armoury but smear and scare tactics.
Huh.. you should take the brick out of your eye and look at your own side.. and I am not a Europhile, I am anti Europe on many things. I vote for the EEC not the EUSSR.
''Right or wrong immigration fatigue is setting in, according to the poll across the country with the exception of London, people have had enough.''
I think people are still very happy to welcome well qualified, hard working immigrants of whatever colour or creed.
Absolutely. As many doctors, engineers or scientists who want to come to the UK will be more than welcome. I would personally draw the line at a 50k minimum salary plus a 50k bond from an employer wishing to hire from outside - this ensures that the employee is a net contributor to the State and that hiring companies have an incentive to train Brits before hiring from outside. I would also exempt universities and research orgs from the above, as we should be encouraging postgraduates and researchers to base themselves in the UK.
In fact it's a good point for the Leave campaign that we let in unskilled immigrants from the EU while imposing quotas on highly qualified immigrants from the rest of the world.
''Right or wrong immigration fatigue is setting in, according to the poll across the country with the exception of London, people have had enough.''
I think people are still very happy to welcome well qualified, hard working immigrants of whatever colour or creed.
I don't think people are bothered about colour or creed they're concerned about numbers. It's called realism.
I am not bothered by colour, but I certainly am by creed. I don't care how hard working a jihadi is; I do not want him here.
Experience of immigration is that Europeans integrate well, from the Polish Army vererans to the Maltese and Italians that came in the 1950's to the more recent arrivals. Even Bulgarian and Romanian migrants have higher employment rates than native Brits. It is on the whole the non-EU migrants that fail to assimilate and have higher unemployment rates. There are differences of course, with Indian Hindus and Sikhs having higher employment rates than Pakistani or Bangladeshi groups.
Immigration is not just about numbers, it is very much about culture.
I'm sorry, but you can't be called a refugee if you put your wife and children's life on the line fleeing from bad dentistry.
You call having all your teeth pulled out by ISIS "bad dentistry"?
You'd do well to drop such ludicrous language if you don't want to put off anyone with common decency not just the "right on" crowd.
You clearly didn't catch up with the reason the guy left Bodrum on little more than a lilo to cross into the EU - he wanted to get his teeth fixed. That was his reason for leaving the flat they had in Istanbul. His sister in Canada told us this.
He was in no jeopardy from ISIS whatsoever.
You clearly didn't catch up with the reason the guy who left Bodrum wanted to get his teeth fixed. His teeth weren't "bad dentistry" they were pulled out by ISIS. If you consider torturing people by pulling all their teeth out "bad dentistry" then you're one sick animal.
Does Bodrum have no dentists? I think your denigration of the Turks is border-line racism.
I was someone who was going to vote yes 100% but that has changed in the last few months. I am getting rather fed up of the Franco German stich up and its about time they listened to us rather than we listen to them.
I'll still probably vote yes because some of the BOO'ers are nigh on racist and that's not a good thing to be basing our membership on..
I'd urge you not to reject BOO simply because (as it has to be) it's a broad church.
I'm right of centre, and I've had to hold my nose and vote conservative despite it being home to a fair few homophobes/transphobes. The Innies have racists, homophobes and anti-semites too; you must know that!
If we voted out... the racists would start of on their next mantra.. repatriation. Its there for all to see if only their eyes were open. That's why I am most likely to vote yes..
No they wouldn't. That is just scare mongering of the worst kind. I know you are a long term Europhile but it is sad to see you resorting to such ludicrous and unfounded smears. Mind you the IN side have pretty much nothing else in their armoury but smear and scare tactics.
Huh.. you should take the brick out of your eye and look at your own side.. and I am not a Europhile, I am anti Europe on many things. I vote for the EEC not the EUSSR.
Good morning all. Ahah! But unfortunately it is the EUSSR that exists, the old EEC project is just a mote in your eye.
I'm sorry, but you can't be called a refugee if you put your wife and children's life on the line fleeing from bad dentistry.
You call having all your teeth pulled out by ISIS "bad dentistry"?
You'd do well to drop such ludicrous language if you don't want to put off anyone with common decency not just the "right on" crowd.
You clearly didn't catch up with the reason the guy left Bodrum on little more than a lilo to cross into the EU - he wanted to get his teeth fixed. That was his reason for leaving the flat they had in Istanbul. His sister in Canada told us this.
He was in no jeopardy from ISIS whatsoever.
You clearly didn't catch up with the reason the guy who left Bodrum wanted to get his teeth fixed. His teeth weren't "bad dentistry" they were pulled out by ISIS. If you consider torturing people by pulling all their teeth out "bad dentistry" then you're one sick animal.
I repeat: he was in no jeopardy in Istanbul. Where they have dentists.
There are large numbers who have had limbs hacked off in Africa by the Lord's Resistance Army. Should they have a right of residence in the EU?
I think the UK is rapidly reaching the point with regard to immigrants where it should be one in..one out..except in approved job situations.
Personally I think it comes down to a sense of British fair play – no problems with immigrants who apply to enter legally, no matter what their ‘qualification’ but sick of those hopping over the back fence and jumping the queue.
''Right or wrong immigration fatigue is setting in, according to the poll across the country with the exception of London, people have had enough.''
I think people are still very happy to welcome well qualified, hard working immigrants of whatever colour or creed.
I don't think people are bothered about colour or creed they're concerned about numbers. It's called realism.
I am not bothered by colour, but I certainly am by creed. I don't care how hard working a jihadi is; I do not want him here.
Experience of immigration is that Europeans integrate well, from the Polish Army vererans to the Maltese and Italians that came in the 1950's to the more recent arrivals. Even Bulgarian and Romanian migrants have higher employment rates than native Brits. It is on the whole the non-EU migrants that fail to assimilate and have higher unemployment rates. There are differences of course, with Indian Hindus and Sikhs having higher employment rates than Pakistani or Bangladeshi groups.
Immigration is not just about numbers, it is very much about culture.
You make a fair point, I'd like to see the unemployment figures amongst Chinese in this country, I'd wager it was virtually zero. But my point is regardless of your occupation or religion you still need a house, doctor, train to catch etc etc infrastructure is the biggest problem we face.
I'm sorry, but you can't be called a refugee if you put your wife and children's life on the line fleeing from bad dentistry.
You call having all your teeth pulled out by ISIS "bad dentistry"?
You'd do well to drop such ludicrous language if you don't want to put off anyone with common decency not just the "right on" crowd.
You clearly didn't catch up with the reason the guy left Bodrum on little more than a lilo to cross into the EU - he wanted to get his teeth fixed. That was his reason for leaving the flat they had in Istanbul. His sister in Canada told us this.
He was in no jeopardy from ISIS whatsoever.
You clearly didn't catch up with the reason the guy who left Bodrum wanted to get his teeth fixed. His teeth weren't "bad dentistry" they were pulled out by ISIS. If you consider torturing people by pulling all their teeth out "bad dentistry" then you're one sick animal.
Does Bodrum have no dentists? I think your denigration of the Turks is border-line racism.
Does it have dentists to treat 2.5 million refugees? No it doesn't.
People here are saying the upper limit on refugees we can accept is 10k but you think its racist to think 2.5 million refugees flooding the same nation aren't getting the medical etc treatment they need? Don't be a fool.
I think the UK is rapidly reaching the point with regard to immigrants where it should be one in..one out..except in approved job situations.
Personally I think it comes down to a sense of British fair play – no problems with immigrants who apply to enter legally, no matter what their ‘qualification’ but sick of those hopping over the back fence and jumping the queue.
That's a very good point. I wonder what will happen to my (Ukranian) wife when we decide to move back to the UK, having met and married while working in the Middle East.
Should I just have her claim asylum in Calais, rather than jump through all the hoops required of someone trying to get leave to remain legitimately - or maybe I could pay off some dodgy Romanian official to get her an EU passport instead..?
I'm sorry, but you can't be called a refugee if you put your wife and children's life on the line fleeing from bad dentistry.
You call having all your teeth pulled out by ISIS "bad dentistry"?
You'd do well to drop such ludicrous language if you don't want to put off anyone with common decency not just the "right on" crowd.
You clearly didn't catch up with the reason the guy left Bodrum on little more than a lilo to cross into the EU - he wanted to get his teeth fixed. That was his reason for leaving the flat they had in Istanbul. His sister in Canada told us this.
He was in no jeopardy from ISIS whatsoever.
You clearly didn't catch up with the reason the guy who left Bodrum wanted to get his teeth fixed. His teeth weren't "bad dentistry" they were pulled out by ISIS. If you consider torturing people by pulling all their teeth out "bad dentistry" then you're one sick animal.
I repeat: he was in no jeopardy in Istanbul. Where they have dentists.
Ah you're an expert on how many dentists they have providing treatment there? How many dentists have been made available for the 2.5 million refugees in Turkey?
There are large numbers who have had limbs hacked off in Africa by the Lord's Resistance Army. Should they have a right of residence in the EU?
Yes they sound like genuine refugees.
Since Turkey with a GDP of $822bn can comfortably cope with and provide healthcare to 2.5million refugees in your eyes then the UK with a GDP of $2678bn (3.25x more) can presumably cope with 3.25x2.5mn > 8 million refugees using your logic?
I'm sorry, but you can't be called a refugee if you put your wife and children's life on the line fleeing from bad dentistry.
You call having all your teeth pulled out by ISIS "bad dentistry"?
You'd do well to drop such ludicrous language if you don't want to put off anyone with common decency not just the "right on" crowd.
You clearly didn't catch up with the reason the guy left Bodrum on little more than a lilo to cross into the EU - he wanted to get his teeth fixed. That was his reason for leaving the flat they had in Istanbul. His sister in Canada told us this.
He was in no jeopardy from ISIS whatsoever.
You clearly didn't catch up with the reason the guy who left Bodrum wanted to get his teeth fixed. His teeth weren't "bad dentistry" they were pulled out by ISIS. If you consider torturing people by pulling all their teeth out "bad dentistry" then you're one sick animal.
Does Bodrum have no dentists? I think your denigration of the Turks is border-line racism.
Does it have dentists to treat 2.5 million refugees? No it doesn't.
People here are saying the upper limit on refugees we can accept is 10k but you think its racist to think 2.5 million refugees flooding the same nation aren't getting the medical etc treatment they need? Don't be a fool.
You might have a point if there were 2.5m refugees in Bodrum with dental issues. There aren't, so you don't. You appear to think it is right for a man to pay smugglers and risk his family's life in order to travel from safe Bodrum in order to get to mainland Europe. He'd already been refused asylum in Canada. Virtue signal all you want but the polls show that the public are with Cameron on this issue. Your arguments might also have more force if you avoided insulting those who disagree..
Mr. Sandpit, Rosberg's had an engine which necessitated the change [as you probably know]. The problem turned out to be coolant-related rather than an issue with the engine itself.
I was someone who was going to vote yes 100% but that has changed in the last few months. I am getting rather fed up of the Franco German stich up and its about time they listened to us rather than we listen to them.
I'll still probably vote yes because some of the BOO'ers are nigh on racist and that's not a good thing to be basing our membership on..
I'd urge you not to reject BOO simply because (as it has to be) it's a broad church.
I'm right of centre, and I've had to hold my nose and vote conservative despite it being home to a fair few homophobes/transphobes. The Innies have racists, homophobes and anti-semites too; you must know that!
If we voted out... the racists would start of on their next mantra.. repatriation. Its there for all to see if only their eyes were open. That's why I am most likely to vote yes..
No they wouldn't. That is just scare mongering of the worst kind. I know you are a long term Europhile but it is sad to see you resorting to such ludicrous and unfounded smears. Mind you the IN side have pretty much nothing else in their armoury but smear and scare tactics.
Huh.. you should take the brick out of your eye and look at your own side.. and I am not a Europhile, I am anti Europe on many things. I vote for the EEC not the EUSSR.
I don't think there's any danger of a fascist government taking power here.
Mr. Sandpit, Rosberg's had an engine which necessitated the change [as you probably know]. The problem turned out to be coolant-related rather than an issue with the engine itself.
Ah, so they were unsure if Rosberg's problem was also going to affect Hamilton? Okay, that makes sense. Come on Lewis!
You might have a point if there were 2.5m refugees in Bodrum with dental issues. There aren't, so you don't. You appear to think it is right for a man to pay smugglers and risk his family's life in order to travel from safe Bodrum in order to get to mainland Europe. He'd already been refused asylum in Canada. Virtue signal all you want but the polls show that the public are with Cameron on this issue. Your arguments might also have more force if you avoided insulting those who disagree..
Its not virtue signalling to have principles, whether they differ with the public or meet it. I suspect the public don't think having your teeth pulled out by ISIS is bad dentistry either. As for the polls, they showed that the public were OK with higher taxes and spending under an Ed Miliband government and I was not - was I wrong to campaign for the Conservatives since the polls said the Conservatives weren't going to win? Since when is standing up for what you believe only OK if the polls agree with you?
I'm not insulting those who disagree on the principles. But using language like "bad dentistry" to describe a refugee having his teeth pulled out by ISIS is insulting. I will not hold back on someone using that sort of Britain First language.
I'm sorry, but you can't be called a refugee if you put your wife and children's life on the line fleeing from bad dentistry.
You call having all your teeth pulled out by ISIS "bad dentistry"?
You'd do well to drop such ludicrous language if you don't want to put off anyone with common decency not just the "right on" crowd.
You clearly didn't catch up with the reason the guy left Bodrum on little more than a lilo to cross into the EU - he wanted to get his teeth fixed. That was his reason for leaving the flat they had in Istanbul. His sister in Canada told us this.
He was in no jeopardy from ISIS whatsoever.
You clearly didn't catch up with the reason the guy who left Bodrum wanted to get his teeth fixed. His teeth weren't "bad dentistry" they were pulled out by ISIS. If you consider torturing people by pulling all their teeth out "bad dentistry" then you're one sick animal.
Does Bodrum have no dentists? I think your denigration of the Turks is border-line racism.
Does it have dentists to treat 2.5 million refugees? No it doesn't.
People here are saying the upper limit on refugees we can accept is 10k but you think its racist to think 2.5 million refugees flooding the same nation aren't getting the medical etc treatment they need? Don't be a fool.
Leave. It's clear that the EU has no real interest in reform, and its priorities are becoming more and more divorced from those of its members on almost a daily basis. If we don't leave now, we might have to wait another 20-30 years for a second chance, and Lord knows how much damage could be done - not just in the UK, but across the continent - in the meantime.
Incidentally, is there a regional breakdown of this poll?
This result looks like a classic IndyRef Mark 2 trigger, assuming it's the English votes that have carried over to result in Leave having a majority whilst Scotland has voted to Remain?
The headline of this thread doesn't make sense. The reminder that opinion polls are a snapshot not an opinion wasn't the publication of any poll, but the result that proved the poll wrong.
I think the UK is rapidly reaching the point with regard to immigrants where it should be one in..one out..except in approved job situations.
Personally I think it comes down to a sense of British fair play – no problems with immigrants who apply to enter legally, no matter what their ‘qualification’ but sick of those hopping over the back fence and jumping the queue.
That's a very good point. I wonder what will happen to my (Ukranian) wife when we decide to move back to the UK, having met and married while working in the Middle East.
Should I just have her claim asylum in Calais, rather than jump through all the hoops required of someone trying to get leave to remain legitimately - or maybe I could pay off some dodgy Romanian official to get her an EU passport instead..?
That's an issue I've raised on here before. When my now-wife went through the process of getting British citizenship a few years back, it was far from straightforward. This was despite her having a very high standard of both spoken and written English, and a relatively high-paid job.
If you follow the process legally and by the book, it can be time-consuming and expensive, for both the individual and any involved employer. And that's fair enough, if that's the way we want to do it as a country.
However it's somewhat annoying to see others cheating and using loopholes to get the same result.
You might have a point if there were 2.5m refugees in Bodrum with dental issues. There aren't, so you don't. You appear to think it is right for a man to pay smugglers and risk his family's life in order to travel from safe Bodrum in order to get to mainland Europe. He'd already been refused asylum in Canada. Virtue signal all you want but the polls show that the public are with Cameron on this issue. Your arguments might also have more force if you avoided insulting those who disagree..
Its not virtue signalling to have principles, whether they differ with the public or meet it. I suspect the public don't think having your teeth pulled out by ISIS is bad dentistry either. As for the polls, they showed that the public were OK with higher taxes and spending under an Ed Miliband government and I was not - was I wrong to campaign for the Conservatives since the polls said the Conservatives weren't going to win? Since when is standing up for what you believe only OK if the polls agree with you?
It's not ok to call people fools when they disagree with you. Your post implied that 2.5 m refugees in Bodrum were in need of urgent dental treatment. Clearly that is an inaccurate exaggeration. You also choose to ignore that the govt here is giving £1b to assist refugees in the region - more than the rest of Europe combined. You ignore the fact that your approach would encourage the people smugglers. The govt has pledged itself to accept genuine refugees from camps in the region. Overall your arguments suggest you prefer gestures to action that might just alleviate the problem. That is your right but don't call people fools because they have a different view.
I was someone who was going to vote yes 100% but that has changed in the last few months. I am getting rather fed up of the Franco German stich up and its about time they listened to us rather than we listen to them.
I'll still probably vote yes because some of the BOO'ers are nigh on racist and that's not a good thing to be basing our membership on..
I'd urge you not to reject BOO simply because (as it has to be) it's a broad church.
I'm right of centre, and I've had to hold my nose and vote conservative despite it being home to a fair few homophobes/transphobes. The Innies have racists, homophobes and anti-semites too; you must know that!
If we voted out... the racists would start of on their next mantra.. repatriation. Its there for all to see if only their eyes were open. That's why I am most likely to vote yes..
So basically if I should consider all the relevant points of in and out and then decide to vote out I'm a RAYCIST. I will then apparently start demanding barbed wire windowed cattle trucks at mainline stations to repatriate undesirables that incidentally hold British passports to ensure a final solution is found to the " living space problem ?
I was someone who was going to vote yes 100% but that has changed in the last few months. I am getting rather fed up of the Franco German stich up and its about time they listened to us rather than we listen to them.
I'll still probably vote yes because some of the BOO'ers are nigh on racist and that's not a good thing to be basing our membership on..
I'd urge you not to reject BOO simply because (as it has to be) it's a broad church.
I'm right of centre, and I've had to hold my nose and vote conservative despite it being home to a fair few homophobes/transphobes. The Innies have racists, homophobes and anti-semites too; you must know that!
If we voted out... the racists would start of on their next mantra.. repatriation. Its there for all to see if only their eyes were open. That's why I am most likely to vote yes..
No they wouldn't. That is just scare mongering of the worst kind. I know you are a long term Europhile but it is sad to see you resorting to such ludicrous and unfounded smears. Mind you the IN side have pretty much nothing else in their armoury but smear and scare tactics.
Huh.. you should take the brick out of your eye and look at your own side.. and I am not a Europhile, I am anti Europe on many things. I vote for the EEC not the EUSSR.
I don't think there's any danger of a fascist government taking power here.
It's more likely in parts of the Continent.
Plenty of our most prominent national broadcasters, actors, artists, comedians, charitable heads, and left-wing journalists secretly think that the average Briton is a closet fascist.
Mr. Royale, saw a trailer for a BBC3 programme about whether or not Britain's racist. Example in the trailer was someone speaking against Islam/Muslims. Which does happen, although Islam's not a race. Not much reference to Rotherham and abuse of white girls/boys, though.
I think people are increasingly fed up of one-sided coverage or debates by the chattering classes, and that's reflected in the polling on immigration.
You might have a point if there were 2.5m refugees in Bodrum with dental issues. There aren't, so you don't. You appear to think it is right for a man to pay smugglers and risk his family's life in order to travel from safe Bodrum in order to get to mainland Europe. He'd already been refused asylum in Canada. Virtue signal all you want but the polls show that the public are with Cameron on this issue. Your arguments might also have more force if you avoided insulting those who disagree..
Its not virtue signalling to have principles, whether they differ with the public or meet it. I suspect the public don't think having your teeth pulled out by ISIS is bad dentistry either. As for the polls, they showed that the public were OK with higher taxes and spending under an Ed Miliband government and I was not - was I wrong to campaign for the Conservatives since the polls said the Conservatives weren't going to win? Since when is standing up for what you believe only OK if the polls agree with you?
It's not ok to call people fools when they disagree with you. Your post implied that 2.5 m refugees in Bodrum were in need of urgent dental treatment. Clearly that is an inaccurate exaggeration. You also choose to ignore that the govt here is giving £1b to assist refugees in the region - more than the rest of Europe combined. You ignore the fact that your approach would encourage the people smugglers. The govt has pledged itself to accept genuine refugees from camps in the region. Overall your arguments suggest you prefer gestures to action that might just alleviate the problem. That is your right but don't call people fools because they have a different view.
No my point was that 2.5mn refugees were needing a variety of treatments - not just because of general routine checkups but also the horrors they've been through. It is foolish to suggest that they are all getting the medical treatment they need.
You suggested there are dentists there. If you want to be a fool and pretend that just because not every refugee has had their teeth pulled out doesn't mean there's a problem then fine. But just as we'd struggle with 8 million refugees so 2.5 million in Turkey is a problem. Unless you think our medical care could absorb millions of refugees with no issue?
I am on the record here as saying we should STOP the people smugglers and bring people in direct rather than encouraging smuggling. My issue is not saying that what happened here is right, but that such offensive Britain First language as suggesting that having your teeth pulled out by ISIS is mere "bad dentistry" is offensive and wrong.
I don't think this poll tells us much either way (I mean its Survation! Come on!!!!!)
However, I have thought for a long time that it's very much a possibility we'll vote to leave the EU.
When you think of the demographics who we know actually turn out to vote and add that together with "Shy Outies" due the general abuse that you receive from Pro-EU'ers... (Little Englander, Xenophobe, Racist, etc....) there will be more people voting to LEAVE than saying they want want out, IMO.
Also, we know we're in an era where voters generally want to give the "establishment" a kicking and finally, as was pointed out yesterday, voting OUT is a good way for the rest of the UK to tell the whinging Scots to p*ss off.
''I think people are increasingly fed up of one-sided coverage or debates by the chattering classes, and that's reflected in the polling on immigration.''
I sometimes wonder if that is what this whole affair is really about - how much influence the chattering classes still have after a tory election victory.
4 months ago we were reminded that opinion polls can be a load of crap! Just saying.
Yes but who is going to die in the ditch to save the UK from leaving the EU.
The SNP Blair Cameron and Clegg , with big business , banks. That will make a lot of people puke.
I agree - the EU is re-defining the word 'dysfunctional' these days. Out of touch and maybe out of time. If so then let the people decide. Democracy is still a good thing, thank heavens.
Referenda is not the usual way in the past for the UK. Usually used when the Government of the day can not make a decision as in 1975. However it always now seems to be used for Constitutional Change, such as devolution.
Blair might have won a referndum on joining the euro in 97 to 98. So not a good thing.
Representative democracy is preferable in my opinion in most instances. As MP`s can use their own judgement in the exercise of their powers, even if their views are not reflective of a majority of voters at that time. This certainy happened to stop Blair with the Euro.
Unfortunately representative democracy permits the politicians of all colours to vote for the gravy train which they are on or the gravy train which they would like to be on.
Mr. Jessop, I always support my bets. It'd be stupid to bet on a sporting result then hope it doesn't happen.
Mr. Taffys, not sure. But the coverage seems bloody one-sided. You're a refugee until you reach somewhere safe. After that, you're a migrant shopping for a nicer country.
I was someone who was going to vote yes 100% but that has changed in the last few months. I am getting rather fed up of the Franco German stich up and its about time they listened to us rather than we listen to them.
I'll still probably vote yes because some of the BOO'ers are nigh on racist and that's not a good thing to be basing our membership on..
I'd urge you not to reject BOO simply because (as it has to be) it's a broad church.
I'm right of centre, and I've had to hold my nose and vote conservative despite it being home to a fair few homophobes/transphobes. The Innies have racists, homophobes and anti-semites too; you must know that!
If we voted out... the racists would start of on their next mantra.. repatriation. Its there for all to see if only their eyes were open. That's why I am most likely to vote yes..
So basically if I should consider all the relevant points of in and out and then decide to vote out I'm a RAYCIST. I will then apparently start demanding barbed wire windowed cattle trucks at mainline stations to repatriate undesirables that incidentally hold British passports to ensure a final solution is found to the " living space problem ?
Well...... It's a view I suppose?
I didn't say that, nor should you infer it. There are lots of racists in the BOO campaign, just look at UKIP, its full of them, mainly though not exclusively ex BNPers.
The EU is even more incompetent than national governments, hopelessly bureaucratic and wasteful, and riven with impossible to resolve contradictions.
I used to be able to look last that out of fear of things getting worse for us if we left, but the benefits are less obvious all the time, the EU leaders grow ever more arrogant and contemptuous of any prospect of reform, and as with others my main concern is the direction of travel is to increase all the things I dislike about it, I don't know that we'll be better off out, but we will be very unhappy and I cannot see it is to our benefit or theirs to prolong this pretence that most of the EU does not want to do and control things we do not; every time there is a suggestion of change we are told, oh they want us to stay, but are sick of us complaining and asking for things etc. that shows there is no willingness to change directions. That being the case, for us and them we should leave.
''I think people are increasingly fed up of one-sided coverage or debates by the chattering classes, and that's reflected in the polling on immigration.''
I sometimes wonder if that is what this whole affair is really about - how much influence the chattering classes still have after a tory election victory.
Mr. Royale, saw a trailer for a BBC3 programme about whether or not Britain's racist. Example in the trailer was someone speaking against Islam/Muslims. Which does happen, although Islam's not a race. Not much reference to Rotherham and abuse of white girls/boys, though.
I think people are increasingly fed up of one-sided coverage or debates by the chattering classes, and that's reflected in the polling on immigration.
Well said. If I say that as an atheist "I find Christianity wrong and bad for humanity" that would be argued on its merits/beliefs and would not be deemed remotely racist. If you switch Christianity for Islam it is viewed as racism. That is hypocrisy.
You might have a point if there were 2.5m refugees in Bodrum with dental issues. There aren't, so you don't. You appear to think it is right for a man to pay smugglers and risk his family's life in order to travel from safe Bodrum in order to get to mainland Europe. He'd already been refused asylum in Canada. Virtue signal all you want but the polls show that the public are with Cameron on this issue. Your arguments might also have more force if you avoided insulting those who disagree..
Its not virtue signalling to have principles, whether they differ with the public or meet it. I suspect the public don't think having your teeth pulled out by ISIS is bad dentistry either. As for the polls, they showed that the public were OK with higher taxes and spending under an Ed Miliband government and I was not - was I wrong to campaign for the Conservatives since the polls said the Conservatives weren't going to win? Since when is standing up for what you believe only OK if the polls agree with you?
It's not ok to call people fools when they disagree with you. Your post implied that 2.5 m refugees in Bodrum were in need of urgent dental treatment. Clearly that is an inaccurate exaggeration. You also choose to ignore that the govt here is giving £1b to assist refugees in the region - more than the rest of Europe combined. You ignore the fact that your approach would encourage the people smugglers. The govt has pledged itself to accept genuine refugees from camps in the region. Overall your arguments suggest you prefer gestures to action that might just alleviate the problem. That is your right but don't call people fools because they have a different view.
No my point was that 2.5mn refugees were needing a variety of treatments - not just because of general routine checkups but also the horrors they've been through. It is foolish to suggest that they are all getting the medical treatment they need.
You suggested there are dentists there. If you want to be a fool and pretend that just because not every refugee has had their teeth pulled out doesn't mean there's a problem then fine. But just as we'd struggle with 8 million refugees so 2.5 million in Turkey is a problem. Unless you think our medical care could absorb millions of refugees with no issue?
Ok - enough - you ignore every point I've made and still call me a fool. I repeat Britain has given more aid to help refugees in the region than the rest of Europe COMBINED. Accepting people who've paid people smugglers and who may not even be genuine refugees is a pretty dim strategy. I suggest you head to Munich with your 'Welcome' banner'.
I'm always slightly dubious about PM biographies. Whilst Seldon's latest tome on Cameron has some interesting snippets, it seems far too early to be anything other than a facsimile of the truth.
However, I found the following interesting:
In a face-to-face Downing Street showdown with the German chancellor, the Prime Minister said: ‘If there’s no deal, it’s not the end of the world; I’ll walk away from the EU.’
Before the GE, I asked whether there was a chance that Cameron might officially remain neutral in the vote, or even recommend people vote to leave. If he did, how would both his party and the country respond?
On Radio 4, there's some person talking about the migration crisis and blithely assuming that all the people coming here want to be like us and come here for our values. This may be true. But it does not seem to occur to him that this may not be true for all, that some may well want the economically better life but either do not want or do not appreciate that this better life comes from our different values. Nor does it occur to him that some of these people may just want to come here to continue their lives as Syrians in Sweden or wherever rather than turn into Swedes. Nor that if you get a very large number of people turning up with a very different culture, the chances of them absorbing the host country's culture, the pressures to do so are lower.
It's this naivety which, it seems to me, is behind much of the muddled thinking on the whole migration issue.
I'm afraid that I share AnneJGP's comment from the previous thread: "However uncharitable it may be, it seems Europe is getting to the point where pulling up the drawbridge is the only option if we want democracy to live on." It's not just democracy but Western civilization which may be at risk if we invite in very large numbers of people from very different civilizations without taking very clear and firm steps to turn them into Westerners.
Cyclefree, I am reading Christopher Caldwell's 'Reflections on the Revolution in Europe', a book I think you said youve read. He says early on, using the example of Turks in Germany, that once significant numbers have emigrated from one country to another, the onus to integrate is no longer on those that follow, and therefore "little istanbuls' are bound to pop up. It is impossible for this not to happen.
Enoch Powell went further by saying it is 'insufferable arrogance' to suppose that an immigrant wants to be thought of as anything other than someone from the country they came from.
I was someone who was going to vote yes 100% but that has changed in the last few months. I am getting rather fed up of the Franco German stich up and its about time they listened to us rather than we listen to them.
I'll still probably vote yes because some of the BOO'ers are nigh on racist and that's not a good thing to be basing our membership on..
I'd urge you not to reject BOO simply because (as it has to be) it's a broad church.
I'm right of centre, and I've had to hold my nose and vote conservative despite it being home to a fair few homophobes/transphobes. The Innies have racists, homophobes and anti-semites too; you must know that!
If we voted out... the racists would start of on their next mantra.. repatriation. Its there for all to see if only their eyes were open. That's why I am most likely to vote yes..
No they wouldn't. That is just scare mongering of the worst kind. I know you are a long term Europhile but it is sad to see you resorting to such ludicrous and unfounded smears. Mind you the IN side have pretty much nothing else in their armoury but smear and scare tactics.
Huh.. you should take the brick out of your eye and look at your own side.. and I am not a Europhile, I am anti Europe on many things. I vote for the EEC not the EUSSR.
I don't think there's any danger of a fascist government taking power here.
It's more likely in parts of the Continent.
Plenty of our most prominent national broadcasters, actors, artists, comedians, charitable heads, and left-wing journalists secretly think that the average Briton is a closet fascist.
True. In the face of protest we heard Nick griffin on QT and that's why the BNP now have the support of millions no doubt.
I'm sorry, but you can't be called a refugee if you put your wife and children's life on the line fleeing from bad dentistry.
You call having all your teeth pulled out by ISIS "bad dentistry"?
You'd do well to drop such ludicrous language if you don't want to put off anyone with common decency not just the "right on" crowd.
You clearly didn't catch up with the reason the guy left Bodrum on little more than a lilo to cross into the EU - he wanted to get his teeth fixed. That was his reason for leaving the flat they had in Istanbul. His sister in Canada told us this.
He was in no jeopardy from ISIS whatsoever.
You clearly didn't catch up with the reason the guy who left Bodrum wanted to get his teeth fixed. His teeth weren't "bad dentistry" they were pulled out by ISIS. If you consider torturing people by pulling all their teeth out "bad dentistry" then you're one sick animal.
I repeat: he was in no jeopardy in Istanbul. Where they have dentists.
Ah you're an expert on how many dentists they have providing treatment there? How many dentists have been made available for the 2.5 million refugees in Turkey?
There are large numbers who have had limbs hacked off in Africa by the Lord's Resistance Army. Should they have a right of residence in the EU?
Yes they sound like genuine refugees.
Since Turkey with a GDP of $822bn can comfortably cope with and provide healthcare to 2.5million refugees in your eyes then the UK with a GDP of $2678bn (3.25x more) can presumably cope with 3.25x2.5mn > 8 million refugees using your logic?
You seem to be happy to provide a home in the UK for anyone that life has dealt a shitty hand. If you'd travelled the globe as much as I have, you'd have some idea of just how many that would be.
My way of addressing it is to support a Govt. that meets its commitment to spending 0.7% of our GDP to alleviate that suffering in situ. And I have taken flak on here for doing so, from those who would cut it - or spend it on good causes in the UK.
Of course, smearing a man who has lost everything when you know nothing of his story except the snippets harvested from media reports is nothing but contemptible. In comfy, prosperous Northern Italian bars and English homes, the reality of being tortured by psycopaths, of seeing the town you lived in destroyed, your neighbours slaughtered, your entire life turned upside down and then the people you love most killed are - thankfully - things that you never have to worry about, let alone go through. How lucky we are to live such lives that allow us to pass judgement on those who have suffered such agonies.
''My way of addressing it is to support a Govt. that meets its commitment to spending 0.7% of our GDP to alleviate that suffering in situ.''
Interestingly George Osborne has said today that the overseas aid budget will be diverted to helping councils cope with those refugees we are prepared to take (the emphasis is on orphaned children, apparently).
''I think people are increasingly fed up of one-sided coverage or debates by the chattering classes, and that's reflected in the polling on immigration.''
I sometimes wonder if that is what this whole affair is really about - how much influence the chattering classes still have after a tory election victory.
The 'chattering classes' have gone into overdrive this week - the ~Survation poll is a most timely reminder of how little their nonsense resonates with people who don't do Twitter or read the Guardian. Both Sky and the BBC have also been utterly pathetic and one-sided in their reporting.
I was someone who was going to vote yes 100% but that has changed in the last few months. I am getting rather fed up of the Franco German stich up and its about time they listened to us rather than we listen to them.
I'll still probably vote yes because some of the BOO'ers are nigh on racist and that's not a good thing to be basing our membership on..
I'd urge you not to reject BOO simply because (as it has to be) it's a broad church.
I'm right of centre, and I've had to hold my nose and vote conservative despite it being home to a fair few homophobes/transphobes. The Innies have racists, homophobes and anti-semites too; you must know that!
If we voted out... the racists would start of on their next mantra.. repatriation. Its there for all to see if only their eyes were open. That's why I am most likely to vote yes..
No they wouldn't. That is just scare mongering of the worst kind. I know you are a long term Europhile but it is sad to see you resorting to such ludicrous and unfounded smears. Mind you the IN side have pretty much nothing else in their armoury but smear and scare tactics.
Huh.. you should take the brick out of your eye and look at your own side.. and I am not a Europhile, I am anti Europe on many things. I vote for the EEC not the EUSSR.
I don't think there's any danger of a fascist government taking power here.
It's more likely in parts of the Continent.
Plenty of our most prominent national broadcasters, actors, artists, comedians, charitable heads, and left-wing journalists secretly think that the average Briton is a closet fascist.
No! Most are closet fascists themselves. They all believe that they are far above the Hoi Polloi, and treat them with distain, And that they deserve the higher social and financial benefits already accrued...........
''I think people are increasingly fed up of one-sided coverage or debates by the chattering classes, and that's reflected in the polling on immigration.''
I sometimes wonder if that is what this whole affair is really about - how much influence the chattering classes still have after a tory election victory.
The idea that there are no Tory members of the chattering classes is rather comical.
You might have a point if there were 2.5m refugees in Bodrum with dental issues. There aren't, so you don't. You appear to think it is right for a man to pay smugglers and risk his family's life in order to travel from safe Bodrum in order to get to mainland Europe. He'd already been refused asylum in Canada. Virtue signal all you want but the polls show that the public are with Cameron on this issue. Your arguments might also have more force if you avoided insulting those who disagree..
Its not virtue signalling to have principles, whether they differ with the public or meet it. I suspect the public don't think having your teeth pulled out by ISIS is bad dentistry either. As for the polls, they showed that the public were OK with higher taxes and spending under an Ed Miliband government and I was not - was I wrong to campaign for the Conservatives since the polls said the Conservatives weren't going to win? Since when is standing up for what you believe only OK if the polls agree with you?
It's not ok
No my point was that 2.5mn refugees were needing a variety of treatments - not just because of general routine checkups but also the horrors they've been through. It is foolish to suggest that they are all getting the medical treatment they need.
You suggested there are dentists there. If you want to be a fool and pretend that just because not every refugee has had their teeth pulled out doesn't mean there's a problem then fine. But just as we'd struggle with 8 million refugees so 2.5 million in Turkey is a problem. Unless you think our medical care could absorb millions of refugees with no issue?
Ok - enough - you ignore every point I've made and still call me a fool. I repeat Britain has given more aid to help refugees in the region than the rest of Europe COMBINED. Accepting people who've paid people smugglers and who may not even be genuine refugees is a pretty dim strategy. I suggest you head to Munich with your 'Welcome' banner'.
Presumably many Syrian Doctors, Dentists, teachers and psychologists amongst the refugees. They probably mostly need kit and supplies. Indeed by equipping refugees to restart lives is one of the best ways of restoring hope and normality to lives. It also makes it easier to move back when things settle down in Syria.
Mr. Royale, saw a trailer for a BBC3 programme about whether or not Britain's racist. Example in the trailer was someone speaking against Islam/Muslims. Which does happen, although Islam's not a race. Not much reference to Rotherham and abuse of white girls/boys, though.
I think people are increasingly fed up of one-sided coverage or debates by the chattering classes, and that's reflected in the polling on immigration.
I speak to "normal" people down the pub for at least one evening most weeks, as well as work colleagues. They are almost all self-employed, or in very typical blue-collar/white-collar jobs.
What strikes me the most is how measured and reasonable most people are - including their willingness to both listen and consider another's point of view before commenting on it.
The average Briton actually impresses me with their pragmatism and rationality. That makes me proud to be British, not ashamed.
I'm afraid I can't always say the same about some affluent university-educated professionals working and living in London, who are as arrogantly certain about their beliefs as they are naive.
Of course, smearing a man who has lost everything when you know nothing of his story except the snippets harvested from media reports is nothing but contemptible. In comfy, prosperous Northern Italian bars and English homes, the reality of being tortured by psycopaths, of seeing the town you lived in destroyed, your neighbours slaughtered, your entire life turned upside down and then the people you love most killed are - thankfully - things that you never have to worry about, let alone go through. How lucky we are to live such lives that allow us to pass judgement on those who have suffered such agonies.
Indeed - and blindly believing everything put out by the media that everyone who pays people smugglers must , by definition, be a genuine victim of horrendous persecution, who must instantly be brought to the UK and given asylum would be equally stupid.
I am a lot more sympathetic to the plight of Syrian refugees than highly-privileged wealthy educated economic migrants who often take opportunities away from less privileged locals and depress wages, in what is essentially a subtle form of social engineering.
I was someone who was going to vote yes 100% but that has changed in the last few months. I am getting rather fed up of the Franco German stich up and its about time they listened to us rather than we listen to them.
I'll still probably vote yes because some of the BOO'ers are nigh on racist and that's not a good thing to be basing our membership on..
I'd urge you not to reject BOO simply because (as it has to be) it's a broad church.
I'm right of centre, and I've had to hold my nose and vote conservative despite it being home to a fair few homophobes/transphobes. The Innies have racists, homophobes and anti-semites too; you must know that!
If we voted out... the racists would start of on their next mantra.. repatriation. Its there for all to see if only their eyes were open. That's why I am most likely to vote yes..
So basically if I should consider all the relevant points of in and out and then decide to vote out I'm a RAYCIST. I will then apparently start demanding barbed wire windowed cattle trucks at mainline stations to repatriate undesirables that incidentally hold British passports to ensure a final solution is found to the " living space problem ?
Well...... It's a view I suppose?
I didn't say that, nor should you infer it. There are lots of racists in the BOO campaign, just look at UKIP, its full of them, mainly though not exclusively ex BNPers.
I was someone who was going to vote yes 100% but that has changed in the last few months. I am getting rather fed up of the Franco German stich up and its about time they listened to us rather than we listen to them.
I'll still probably vote yes because some of the BOO'ers are nigh on racist and that's not a good thing to be basing our membership on..
I'd urge you not to reject BOO simply because (as it has to be) it's a broad church.
I'm right of centre, and I've had to hold my nose and vote conservative despite it being home to a fair few homophobes/transphobes. The Innies have racists, homophobes and anti-semites too; you must know that!
If we voted out... the racists would start of on their next mantra.. repatriation. Its there for all to see if only their eyes were open. That's why I am most likely to vote yes..
No they wouldn't. That is just scare mongering of the worst kind. I know you are a long term Europhile but it is sad to see you resorting to such ludicrous and unfounded smears. Mind you the IN side have pretty much nothing else in their armoury but smear and scare tactics.
Huh.. you should take the brick out of your eye and look at your own side.. and I am not a Europhile, I am anti Europe on many things. I vote for the EEC not the EUSSR.
I don't think there's any danger of a fascist government taking power here.
It's more likely in parts of the Continent.
Plenty of our most prominent national broadcasters, actors, artists, comedians, charitable heads, and left-wing journalists secretly think that the average Briton is a closet fascist.
No! Most are closet fascists themselves. They all believe that they are far above the Hoi Polloi, and treat them with distain, And that they deserve the higher social and financial benefits already accrued...........
Of course, smearing a man who has lost everything when you know nothing of his story except the snippets harvested from media reports is nothing but contemptible. In comfy, prosperous Northern Italian bars and English homes, the reality of being tortured by psycopaths, of seeing the town you lived in destroyed, your neighbours slaughtered, your entire life turned upside down and then the people you love most killed are - thankfully - things that you never have to worry about, let alone go through. How lucky we are to live such lives that allow us to pass judgement on those who have suffered such agonies.
Agree. Whatever the wisdom of his actions, it's wrong to mock a man who's lost everything.
I am a lot more sympathetic to the plight of Syrian refugees than highly-privileged wealthy educated economic migrants who often take opportunities away from less privileged locals and depress wages, in what is effectively a subtle form of social engineering.
Either way the trick is to be clear which is which. This is where the EU/Merkel apporoach to the current problems have been most cack-handed.
Of course, smearing a man who has lost everything when you know nothing of his story except the snippets harvested from media reports is nothing but contemptible. In comfy, prosperous Northern Italian bars and English homes, the reality of being tortured by psycopaths, of seeing the town you lived in destroyed, your neighbours slaughtered, your entire life turned upside down and then the people you love most killed are - thankfully - things that you never have to worry about, let alone go through. How lucky we are to live such lives that allow us to pass judgement on those who have suffered such agonies.
Agree. Whatever the wisdom of his actions, it's wrong to mock a man who's lost everything.
No doubt - yet equally wrong to sanctify him - that was the media's mistake.
York C..there must be lots of Italians would happily swap places..I probably spend more time in the UK than Roger.. most long haul lorry drivers,airline crews..merchant and Royal Navy seamen.....and talking of duffers returning.. there are a lot of Scots living in Europe..Incidentally we have just had a trip over to pick where we will live on our return at the end of our time here....on the south coast...
Of course, smearing a man who has lost everything when you know nothing of his story except the snippets harvested from media reports is nothing but contemptible. In comfy, prosperous Northern Italian bars and English homes, the reality of being tortured by psycopaths, of seeing the town you lived in destroyed, your neighbours slaughtered, your entire life turned upside down and then the people you love most killed are - thankfully - things that you never have to worry about, let alone go through. How lucky we are to live such lives that allow us to pass judgement on those who have suffered such agonies.
Indeed - and blindly believing everything put out by the media that everyone who pays people smugglers must , by definition, be a genuine victim of horrendous persecution, who must instantly be brought to the UK and given asylum would be equally stupid.
It would be stupid, I agree. But attacking the father of these children and implying they died merely because he wanted some dental work done is not just stupid, it is disgusting.
Of course, smearing a man who has lost everything when you know nothing of his story except the snippets harvested from media reports is nothing but contemptible. In comfy, prosperous Northern Italian bars and English homes, the reality of being tortured by psycopaths, of seeing the town you lived in destroyed, your neighbours slaughtered, your entire life turned upside down and then the people you love most killed are - thankfully - things that you never have to worry about, let alone go through. How lucky we are to live such lives that allow us to pass judgement on those who have suffered such agonies.
Indeed - and blindly believing everything put out by the media that everyone who pays people smugglers must , by definition, be a genuine victim of horrendous persecution, who must instantly be brought to the UK and given asylum would be equally stupid.
It would be stupid, I agree. But attacking the father of these children and implying they died merely because he wanted some dental work done is not just stupid, it is disgusting.
I went out in hoxton last night and the place was full of.... English oiks! I was v disappointed at the lack of diversity and foreign languages on offer.
I was someone who was going to vote yes 100% but that has changed in the last few months. I am getting rather fed up of the Franco German stich up and its about time they listened to us rather than we listen to them.
I'll still probably vote yes because some of the BOO'ers are nigh on racist and that's not a good thing to be basing our membership on..
I'd urge you not to reject BOO simply because (as it has to be) it's a broad church.
I'm right of centre, and I've had to hold my nose and vote conservative despite it being home to a fair few homophobes/transphobes. The Innies have racists, homophobes and anti-semites too; you must know that!
If we voted out... the racists would start of on their next mantra.. repatriation. Its there for all to see if only their eyes were open. That's why I am most likely to vote yes..
So basically if I should consider all the relevant points of in and out and then decide to vote out I'm a RAYCIST. I will then apparently start demanding barbed wire windowed cattle trucks at mainline stations to repatriate undesirables that incidentally hold British passports to ensure a final solution is found to the " living space problem ?
Well...... It's a view I suppose?
I didn't say that, nor should you infer it. There are lots of racists in the BOO campaign, just look at UKIP, its full of them, mainly though not exclusively ex BNPers.
Yes you did...... You implied just precisely that and even used the term "repatriation". Actually that approach would include me according to Grandma Moses research completed before she died. We apparently arrived in the UK as immigrants ourselves ......so there you go.
It was in 1688 with William of Orange ( apparently) so hopefully after all this time I will be safe from your imaginary rayyyyycisssts and implied, "forced repatriation"
Watching Andrew Marr interviewing Harman, he asked her "would all of the 4 leadership candidates make good PMs?" Yes would have been the easy answer but all she did was flim flam.
Southam ..nothing comfortable or prosperous about my local village bar..the clientele are all very hardworking farmers and farmhands..they hate the EU mainly because they are now regulated by Brussels and not allowed to farm in the traditional way, ..they also claim this has made life infinitely more difficult ..and the Italian government has just announced a form of tax to pay for the migrants..With regard to the man who lost his family..He was a fool..unless you agree with him that putting your family in a leaky vessel to sail out across the med is a sensible thing to do..These farmers in the pub thought not.
Of course, smearing a man who has lost everything when you know nothing of his story except the snippets harvested from media reports is nothing but contemptible. In comfy, prosperous Northern Italian bars and English homes, the reality of being tortured by psycopaths, of seeing the town you lived in destroyed, your neighbours slaughtered, your entire life turned upside down and then the people you love most killed are - thankfully - things that you never have to worry about, let alone go through. How lucky we are to live such lives that allow us to pass judgement on those who have suffered such agonies.
Indeed - and blindly believing everything put out by the media that everyone who pays people smugglers must , by definition, be a genuine victim of horrendous persecution, who must instantly be brought to the UK and given asylum would be equally stupid.
It would be stupid, I agree. But attacking the father of these children and implying they died merely because he wanted some dental work done is not just stupid, it is disgusting.
I think rather that he was misguided to pay people smugglers to transport his family from a flat in Bodrum - a very safe part of Turkey which I know quite well. It was an act of recklessness. I think people smuggling is pretty much beyond the pale. Hence the stupidity of the EU/German response to the issue, which suggests that if you take such actions all good things will be given to you. You make many assumptions about people's motives made on limited knowledge yourself all the time - and are not slow to hand out judgements.
I was someone who was going to vote yes 100% but that has changed in the last few months. I am getting rather fed up of the Franco German stich up and its about time they listened to us rather than we listen to them.
I'll still probably vote yes because some of the BOO'ers are nigh on racist and that's not a good thing to be basing our membership on..
I'd urge you not to reject BOO simply because (as it has to be) it's a broad church.
I'm right of centre, and I've had to hold my nose and vote conservative despite it being home to a fair few homophobes/transphobes. The Innies have racists, homophobes and anti-semites too; you must know that!
If we voted out... the racists would start of on their next mantra.. repatriation. Its there for all to see if only their eyes were open. That's why I am most likely to vote yes..
So basically if I should consider all the relevant points of in and out and then decide to vote out I'm a RAYCIST. I will then apparently start demanding barbed wire windowed cattle trucks at mainline stations to repatriate undesirables that incidentally hold British passports to ensure a final solution is found to the " living space problem ?
Well...... It's a view I suppose?
I didn't say that, nor should you infer it. There are lots of racists in the BOO campaign, just look at UKIP, its full of them, mainly though not exclusively ex BNPers.
When you say ukip is full of racists what do you mean by that, I'm interested to hear what % of ukip voters you consider to be racist. Instead of making vague, lazy accusations please be specific, for instance is Carswell racist? Suzanne Evans? Am I ?
Cooper on Sky News showing some reservations on strikes in Syria against ISIS as it would not be at the invitation of a democratic government unlike Iraq, instead would push negotiation with neighbours
Of course, smearing a man who has lost everything when you know nothing of his story except the snippets harvested from media reports is nothing but contemptible. In comfy, prosperous Northern Italian bars and English homes, the reality of being tortured by psycopaths, of seeing the town you lived in destroyed, your neighbours slaughtered, your entire life turned upside down and then the people you love most killed are - thankfully - things that you never have to worry about, let alone go through. How lucky we are to live such lives that allow us to pass judgement on those who have suffered such agonies.
Indeed - and blindly believing everything put out by the media that everyone who pays people smugglers must , by definition, be a genuine victim of horrendous persecution, who must instantly be brought to the UK and given asylum would be equally stupid.
It would be stupid, I agree. But attacking the father of these children and implying they died merely because he wanted some dental work done is not just stupid, it is disgusting.
But it was not about getting a filling because he sucked on too many toffees, was it? Like you, his sister has not lived through what he has.
Mr. HYUFD, we need someone else's permission to bomb a group that crucifies children and is organising industrial scale rape, when it's not busy attempting genocide?
In EU ref Labour voters are 63% In, LDs 84% In, UKIP voters 95% Out, Tory voters are 54% Out 46% In and nationally it is 51% Out 49% In so Tory voters will determine the result of the referendum. Cameron could play as crucial a role in persuading them to back In as Brown did in persuading 2010 Labour voters to vote for the Union in indyref http://survation.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/09/Final-MoS-September-Tables-1c0d0h4.pdf
Of course, smearing a man who has lost everything when you know nothing of his story except the snippets harvested from media reports is nothing but contemptible. In comfy, prosperous Northern Italian bars and English homes, the reality of being tortured by psycopaths, of seeing the town you lived in destroyed, your neighbours slaughtered, your entire life turned upside down and then the people you love most killed are - thankfully - things that you never have to worry about, let alone go through. How lucky we are to live such lives that allow us to pass judgement on those who have suffered such agonies.
On another topic: You will know that there is a Labour Party leadership election going on and this is how I voted a few minutes ago [ after much thought, usually I am very quick ]
Leader
1. Cooper 2. Burnham
I must say I do agree with many but not all of Corbyn's policies and ideas I restricted my votes to two. The choice was not entirely appetising. It was like going into a café, didn't like the menu but too polite to leave without eating !
Deputy Leadership
1. Watson 2. Flint 3. Creasy 4. Bradshaw 5. Eagle
London Mayor
1. Khan 2. Thomas [ I don't know about him but liked his pro Heathrow Airport statement London needs Heathrow ! ] 3. Wolmar 4. Lammy 5. Jowell 6. Abbott [ not because of sending her son to private school but because of giving us lectures beforehand ! ]
Of course, smearing a man who has lost everything when you know nothing of his story except the snippets harvested from media reports is nothing but contemptible. In comfy, prosperous Northern Italian bars and English homes, the reality of being tortured by psycopaths, of seeing the town you lived in destroyed, your neighbours slaughtered, your entire life turned upside down and then the people you love most killed are - thankfully - things that you never have to worry about, let alone go through. How lucky we are to live such lives that allow us to pass judgement on those who have suffered such agonies.
Indeed - and blindly believing everything put out by the media that everyone who pays people smugglers must , by definition, be a genuine victim of horrendous persecution, who must instantly be brought to the UK and given asylum would be equally stupid.
It would be stupid, I agree. But attacking the father of these children and implying they died merely because he wanted some dental work done is not just stupid, it is disgusting.
I think rather that he was misguided to pay people smugglers to transport his family from a flat in Bodrum - a very safe part of Turkey which I know quite well. It was an act of recklessness. I think people smuggling is pretty much beyond the pale. Hence the stupidity of the EU/German response to the issue, which suggests that if you take such actions all good things will be given to you. You make many assumptions about people's motives made on limited knowledge yourself all the time - and are not slow to hand out judgements.
Yes, from here it looks misguided. And clearly it was. Thankfully, none of us on here will ever go through the things he and his family went through that led him to make the decision he did.
Mr. HYUFD, we need someone else's permission to bomb a group that crucifies children and is organising industrial scale rape, when it's not busy attempting genocide?
It's a view.
Well it is Cooper and Burnham's view yes, Corbyn would not bomb them even if asked
Southam ..nothing comfortable or prosperous about my local village bar..the clientele are all very hardworking farmers and farmhands..they hate the EU mainly because they are now regulated by Brussels and not allowed to farm in the traditional way, ..they also claim this has made life infinitely more difficult ..and the Italian government has just announced a form of tax to pay for the migrants..With regard to the man who lost his family..He was a fool..unless you agree with him that putting your family in a leaky vessel to sail out across the med is a sensible thing to do..These farmers in the pub thought not.
Glad to see your Italian has improved. But the overwhelming majority of Italians want to remain in the EU and keep the Euro.
Mr Dancer, if the GP2 and GP3 races this morning are any guide to the F1 race, expect a lot of overtaking (with and without DRS) and some very close racing this afternoon.
Cooper on Sky News showing some reservations on strikes in Syria against ISIS as it would not be at the invitation of a democratic government unlike Iraq, instead would push negotiation with neighbours
Quite right ! The Allies have been bombing for a year or whatever. Will our 6 Tornadoes really make a difference ?
What has been the outcome of the Libya bombing ? Who is in charge over there ? Which Militia is our Militia ? Like, in Egypt, the murderer who is in charge is our Murderer, more so Israel's puppet actually.
Of course, smearing a man who has lost everything when you know nothing of his story except the snippets harvested from media reports is nothing but contemptible. In comfy, prosperous Northern Italian bars and English homes, the reality of being tortured by psycopaths, of seeing the town you lived in destroyed, your neighbours slaughtered, your entire life turned upside down and then the people you love most killed are - thankfully - things that you never have to worry about, let alone go through. How lucky we are to live such lives that allow us to pass judgement on those who have suffered such agonies.
Indeed - and blindly believing everything put out by the media that everyone who pays people smugglers must , by definition, be a genuine victim of horrendous persecution, who must instantly be brought to the UK and given asylum would be equally stupid.
It would be stupid, I agree. But attacking the father of these children and implying they died merely because he wanted some dental work done is not just stupid, it is disgusting.
I think rather that he was misguided to pay people smugglers to transport his family from a flat in Bodrum - a very safe part of Turkey which I know quite well. It was an act of recklessness. I think people smuggling is pretty much beyond the pale. Hence the stupidity of the EU/German response to the issue, which suggests that if you take such actions all good things will be given to you. You make many assumptions about people's motives made on limited knowledge yourself all the time - and are not slow to hand out judgements.
That’s a pretty fair statement of the situation. – Mr Kurdi was neither saint nor sinner, but those that hold him up as either are making a mistake Imo.
Southam The questions were asked by a visiting American Italian friend..he fancied a beer and this was the nearest bar. So pleased that you seem to know how Italians think .. did you form that opinion down at your local Italian pasta place..Try talking to some of the ones who have to scrape a living here..
Hard to disagree with Cameron and Osbornes handling of this whole matter by the way. Taking refugees from the camps rather than those who illegally enter Europe is plain common sense.
Of course, smearing a man who has lost everything when you know nothing of his story except the snippets harvested from media reports is nothing but contemptible. In comfy, prosperous Northern Italian bars and English homes, the reality of being tortured by psycopaths, of seeing the town you lived in destroyed, your neighbours slaughtered, your entire life turned upside down and then the people you love most killed are - thankfully - things that you never have to worry about, let alone go through. How lucky we are to live such lives that allow us to pass judgement on those who have suffered such agonies.
Indeed - and blindly believing everything put out by the media that everyone who pays people smugglers must , by definition, be a genuine victim of horrendous persecution, who must instantly be brought to the UK and given asylum would be equally stupid.
It would be stupid, I agree. But attacking the father of these children and implying they died merely because he wanted some dental work done is not just stupid, it is disgusting.
I think rather that he was misguided to pay people smugglers to transport his family from a flat in Bodrum - a very safe part of Turkey which I know quite well. It was an act of recklessness. I think people smuggling is pretty much beyond the pale. Hence the stupidity of the EU/German response to the issue, which suggests that if you take such actions all good things will be given to you. You make many assumptions about people's motives made on limited knowledge yourself all the time - and are not slow to hand out judgements.
Yes, from here it looks misguided. And clearly it was. Thankfully, none of us on here will ever go through the things he and his family went through that led him to make the decision he did.
He was it seems from Kobane, which was flattened in the last year. Turkey's rather ambivalent approach to IS is coming home to roost. The kurds are rightly unimpressed, but not the only ones.
The Turks are about the only ones adjacent to Syria who could create a safe haven in Syria for refugees.
Comments
Numbers maybe, but I think quality is a greater concern. Voters are concerned about people who either contribute nothing, use public services without having paid in, don;t obey the law or don't integrate with the general population.
In fact it's a good point for the Leave campaign that we let in unskilled immigrants from the EU while imposing quotas on highly qualified immigrants from the rest of the world.
Experience of immigration is that Europeans integrate well, from the Polish Army vererans to the Maltese and Italians that came in the 1950's to the more recent arrivals. Even Bulgarian and Romanian migrants have higher employment rates than native Brits. It is on the whole the non-EU migrants that fail to assimilate and have higher unemployment rates. There are differences of course, with Indian Hindus and Sikhs having higher employment rates than Pakistani or Bangladeshi groups.
Immigration is not just about numbers, it is very much about culture.
Ahah! But unfortunately it is the EUSSR that exists, the old EEC project is just a mote in your eye.
There are large numbers who have had limbs hacked off in Africa by the Lord's Resistance Army. Should they have a right of residence in the EU?
People here are saying the upper limit on refugees we can accept is 10k but you think its racist to think 2.5 million refugees flooding the same nation aren't getting the medical etc treatment they need? Don't be a fool.
Oh well. It would've been splendid if he'd been forced to start from the pit lane.
Should I just have her claim asylum in Calais, rather than jump through all the hoops required of someone trying to get leave to remain legitimately - or maybe I could pay off some dodgy Romanian official to get her an EU passport instead..?
Since Turkey with a GDP of $822bn can comfortably cope with and provide healthcare to 2.5million refugees in your eyes then the UK with a GDP of $2678bn (3.25x more) can presumably cope with 3.25x2.5mn > 8 million refugees using your logic?
It's more likely in parts of the Continent.
I'm not insulting those who disagree on the principles. But using language like "bad dentistry" to describe a refugee having his teeth pulled out by ISIS is insulting. I will not hold back on someone using that sort of Britain First language.
Incidentally, is there a regional breakdown of this poll?
This result looks like a classic IndyRef Mark 2 trigger, assuming it's the English votes that have carried over to result in Leave having a majority whilst Scotland has voted to Remain?
If you follow the process legally and by the book, it can be time-consuming and expensive, for both the individual and any involved employer. And that's fair enough, if that's the way we want to do it as a country.
However it's somewhat annoying to see others cheating and using loopholes to get the same result.
Well...... It's a view I suppose?
I think people are increasingly fed up of one-sided coverage or debates by the chattering classes, and that's reflected in the polling on immigration.
You suggested there are dentists there. If you want to be a fool and pretend that just because not every refugee has had their teeth pulled out doesn't mean there's a problem then fine. But just as we'd struggle with 8 million refugees so 2.5 million in Turkey is a problem. Unless you think our medical care could absorb millions of refugees with no issue?
I am on the record here as saying we should STOP the people smugglers and bring people in direct rather than encouraging smuggling. My issue is not saying that what happened here is right, but that such offensive Britain First language as suggesting that having your teeth pulled out by ISIS is mere "bad dentistry" is offensive and wrong.
However, I have thought for a long time that it's very much a possibility we'll vote to leave the EU.
When you think of the demographics who we know actually turn out to vote and add that together with "Shy Outies" due the general abuse that you receive from Pro-EU'ers... (Little Englander, Xenophobe, Racist, etc....) there will be more people voting to LEAVE than saying they want want out, IMO.
Also, we know we're in an era where voters generally want to give the "establishment" a kicking and finally, as was pointed out yesterday, voting OUT is a good way for the rest of the UK to tell the whinging Scots to p*ss off.
Well, expect the unexpected I say.
You should banish yourself immediately.
I sometimes wonder if that is what this whole affair is really about - how much influence the chattering classes still have after a tory election victory.
Mr. Taffys, not sure. But the coverage seems bloody one-sided. You're a refugee until you reach somewhere safe. After that, you're a migrant shopping for a nicer country.
I used to be able to look last that out of fear of things getting worse for us if we left, but the benefits are less obvious all the time, the EU leaders grow ever more arrogant and contemptuous of any prospect of reform, and as with others my main concern is the direction of travel is to increase all the things I dislike about it, I don't know that we'll be better off out, but we will be very unhappy and I cannot see it is to our benefit or theirs to prolong this pretence that most of the EU does not want to do and control things we do not; every time there is a suggestion of change we are told, oh they want us to stay, but are sick of us complaining and asking for things etc. that shows there is no willingness to change directions. That being the case, for us and them we should leave.
It's this naivety which, it seems to me, is behind much of the muddled thinking on the whole migration issue.
I'm afraid that I share AnneJGP's comment from the previous thread: "However uncharitable it may be, it seems Europe is getting to the point where pulling up the drawbridge is the only option if we want democracy to live on." It's not just democracy but Western civilization which may be at risk if we invite in very large numbers of people from very different civilizations without taking very clear and firm steps to turn them into Westerners.
Cyclefree, I am reading Christopher Caldwell's 'Reflections on the Revolution in Europe', a book I think you said youve read. He says early on, using the example of Turks in Germany, that once significant numbers have emigrated from one country to another, the onus to integrate is no longer on those that follow, and therefore "little istanbuls' are bound to pop up. It is impossible for this not to happen.
Enoch Powell went further by saying it is 'insufferable arrogance' to suppose that an immigrant wants to be thought of as anything other than someone from the country they came from.
My way of addressing it is to support a Govt. that meets its commitment to spending 0.7% of our GDP to alleviate that suffering in situ. And I have taken flak on here for doing so, from those who would cut it - or spend it on good causes in the UK.
Interestingly George Osborne has said today that the overseas aid budget will be diverted to helping councils cope with those refugees we are prepared to take (the emphasis is on orphaned children, apparently).
How good is this guy...???
What strikes me the most is how measured and reasonable most people are - including their willingness to both listen and consider another's point of view before commenting on it.
The average Briton actually impresses me with their pragmatism and rationality. That makes me proud to be British, not ashamed.
I'm afraid I can't always say the same about some affluent university-educated professionals working and living in London, who are as arrogantly certain about their beliefs as they are naive.
I include tories such as Tim Montgomerie and Sayeeda Warsi....
He is stepping up to the plate. Couldn't see him as party leader (and ergo Prime Minister) 5 years ago, but now can.
It was in 1688 with William of Orange ( apparently) so hopefully after all this time I will be safe from your imaginary rayyyyycisssts and implied, "forced repatriation"
It's a view.
http://survation.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/09/Final-MoS-September-Tables-1c0d0h4.pdf
Leader
1. Cooper
2. Burnham
I must say I do agree with many but not all of Corbyn's policies and ideas I restricted my votes to two. The choice was not entirely appetising. It was like going into a café, didn't like the menu but too polite to leave without eating !
Deputy Leadership
1. Watson
2. Flint
3. Creasy
4. Bradshaw
5. Eagle
London Mayor
1. Khan
2. Thomas [ I don't know about him but liked his pro Heathrow Airport statement London needs Heathrow ! ]
3. Wolmar
4. Lammy
5. Jowell
6. Abbott [ not because of sending her son to private school but because of giving us lectures beforehand ! ]
But after the Syrian refugee issue, I am surprised to find I can rationalise successfully voting to leave. So I will vote out..
What has been the outcome of the Libya bombing ? Who is in charge over there ? Which Militia is our Militia ? Like, in Egypt, the murderer who is in charge is our Murderer, more so Israel's puppet actually.
So pleased that you seem to know how Italians think .. did you form that opinion down at your local Italian pasta place..Try talking to some of the ones who have to scrape a living here..
The Turks are about the only ones adjacent to Syria who could create a safe haven in Syria for refugees.