SO..Part of my wife's family business is in education. They are overwhelmed by Italians wanting to take English exams... and they all want to leave..And this is from the so called prosperous north..The main destinations for Them are OZ and the USA..so much for loving the EU and the Euro
The facts on the ground have certainly improved the arguments for Leave in the last couple of months. As the Euro members can't be trusted to respect previous agreements we need to make sure there is a robust system for non-Euro members to be protected. And unless we want hundreds of thousands of second hand refugees from Germany on top of the immigration we already have, we need changes to Free Movement.
The Remain side better hope Cameron's renegotiation isn't a wet fish, or they'll be snookered. The worst case scenario they can paint is reduced trade but people will prefer that to being swamped with third world migrants we don't have any control over.
Southam The questions were asked by a visiting American Italian friend..he fancied a beer and this was the nearest bar. So pleased that you seem to know how Italians think .. did you form that opinion down at your local Italian pasta place..Try talking to some of the ones who have to scrape a living here..
If you could understand Italian you could read the polls. How do anti-EU parties fare in Italian elections?
On another topic: You will know that there is a Labour Party leadership election going on and this is how I voted a few minutes ago [ after much thought, usually I am very quick ]
Leader
1. Cooper 2. Burnham
I must say I do agree with many but not all of Corbyn's policies and ideas I restricted my votes to two. The choice was not entirely appetising. It was like going into a café, didn't like the menu but too polite to leave without eating !
Deputy Leadership
1. Watson 2. Flint 3. Creasy 4. Bradshaw 5. Eagle
London Mayor
1. Khan 2. Thomas [ I don't know about him but liked his pro Heathrow Airport statement London needs Heathrow ! ] 3. Wolmar 4. Lammy 5. Jowell 6. Abbott [ not because of sending her son to private school but because of giving us lectures beforehand ! ]
Cooper on Sky News showing some reservations on strikes in Syria against ISIS as it would not be at the invitation of a democratic government unlike Iraq, instead would push negotiation with neighbours
Quite right ! The Allies have been bombing for a year or whatever. Will our 6 Tornadoes really make a difference ?
What has been the outcome of the Libya bombing ? Who is in charge over there ? Which Militia is our Militia ? Like, in Egypt, the murderer who is in charge is our Murderer, more so Israel's puppet actually.
France is now looking to bomb ISIL in Syria now alongside the US, which would leave us the only UN Security Council western permanent member not taking action there
This is a different case to Libya where we were trying to topple Gaddafi, that would be the equivalent of the 2012 vote and bombing Assad which was rejected.
Yes you did...... You implied just precisely that and even used the term "repatriation". Actually that approach would include me according to Grandma Moses research completed before she died. We apparently arrived in the UK as immigrants ourselves ......so there you go.
We're all immigrants from the Olduvai Gorge in Tanzania, if you go back far enough.
There seems to be much lazy (or perhaps convenient) confusion at the moment between migrants and refugees. It is easy for us all to have sympathy for refugees, who have fled fighting and destruction and persecution. It is still my preferred route to help them in situ. Taken away from their region, they start losing identity and will show less inclination to return and rebuild their land when peace returns.
That their plight is made all the more difficult by economic migrants - those not fleeing war and persecution and destruction, but using that of others as cover for a better life than they have - is very frustrating. It gets more blurred again when refugees who have made it to a point of safety then use that as a springboard to travel on further, to escape to a permanent better life in a country with which they have no ties, no right to residence and often resort to criminal means to gain entry.
That the hand-wringers would help all is ultimately going to be to the detriment of those who need help the most, the true refugees.
Of course, smearing a man who has lost everything when you know nothing of his story except the snippets harvested from media reports is nothing but contemptible. In comfy, prosperous Northern Italian bars and English homes, the reality of being tortured by psycopaths, of seeing the town you lived in destroyed, your neighbours slaughtered, your entire life turned upside down and then the people you love most killed are - thankfully - things that you never have to worry about, let alone go through. How lucky we are to live such lives that allow us to pass judgement on those who have suffered such agonies.
Agreed.
Don't think anyone would really disagree with the statement as was written and SObs does make these points exceeding well as always.
We have to remember though this is not our fault as is commonly implied and we are doing more than most and than we are ever given credit for. I do have some difficulty though understanding why we are expected to help and accept thousands of Syrians yet......... we cannot help and accept a handful of our Iraqi translators and their families who need this as a result of our own direct actions?
I am a lot more sympathetic to the plight of Syrian refugees than highly-privileged wealthy educated economic migrants who often take opportunities away from less privileged locals and depress wages, in what is essentially a subtle form of social engineering.
BBC was reporting yesterday that the latest wave of migrants to enter Hungary was increasingly non-Syrian as other nationals looked to benefit from Merkel's announcement. One man was from Pakistan.
This poll forms a basis for a 60:40 IN:OUT result. After Britain's miserliness and Germany / Merkel's lion-hearted gesture , I don't think there is a long queue to help Britain out. Hungary could be Britain's friend !
If Britain wants OUT, it deserves to be OUT and fetch for itself.
My view of Merkel has changed a thousand fold over the last week. Bayern Munich has given EUR 1.5m, Borussia Dortmund showing banners welcoming refugees. Brilliant !
I must say I do agree with many but not all of Corbyn's policies and ideas I restricted my votes to two. The choice was not entirely appetising. It was like going into a café, didn't like the menu but too polite to leave without eating !
This poll forms a basis for a 60:40 IN:OUT result. After Britain's miserliness and Germany / Merkel's lion-hearted gesture , I don't think there is a long queue to help Britain out. Hungary could be Britain's friend !
If Britain wants OUT, it deserves to be OUT and fetch for itself.
My view of Merkel has changed a thousand fold over the last week. Bayern Munich has given EUR 1.5m, Borussia Dortmund showing banners welcoming refugees. Brilliant !
Today's Germany is a different Germany.
Profound. There was me thinking they were all nazis
Yes you did...... You implied just precisely that and even used the term "repatriation". Actually that approach would include me according to Grandma Moses research completed before she died. We apparently arrived in the UK as immigrants ourselves ......so there you go.
We're all immigrants from the Olduvai Gorge in Tanzania, if you go back far enough.
There seems to be much lazy (or perhaps convenient) confusion at the moment between migrants and refugees. It is easy for us all to have sympathy for refugees, who have fled fighting and destruction and persecution. It is still my preferred route to help them in situ. Taken away from their region, they start losing identity and will show less inclination to return and rebuild their land when peace returns.
That their plight is made all the more difficult by economic migrants - those not fleeing war and persecution and destruction, but using that of others as cover for a better life than they have - is very frustrating. It gets more blurred again when refugees who have made it to a point of safety then use that as a springboard to travel on further, to escape to a permanent better life in a country with which they have no ties, no right to residence and often resort to criminal means to gain entry.
That the hand-wringers would help all is ultimately going to be to the detriment of those who need help the most, the true refugees.
Point taken. The same way really refugee, asylum seeker and economic migrant seems now to be becoming very blurred in the MSM.
SO.. So now you are relying on polls..in Italy.really.How did the well structured polls work out for your beloved Labour Party at the last GE..Polls did come up in the conversation in the bar.. no one there had ever been approached by one..maybe they are all taken in the business districts of Milan and Turin .
Yes you did...... You implied just precisely that and even used the term "repatriation". Actually that approach would include me according to Grandma Moses research completed before she died. We apparently arrived in the UK as immigrants ourselves ......so there you go.
We're all immigrants from the Olduvai Gorge in Tanzania, if you go back far enough.
There seems to be much lazy (or perhaps convenient) confusion at the moment between migrants and refugees. It is easy for us all to have sympathy for refugees, who have fled fighting and destruction and persecution. It is still my preferred route to help them in situ. Taken away from their region, they start losing identity and will show less inclination to return and rebuild their land when peace returns.
That their plight is made all the more difficult by economic migrants - those not fleeing war and persecution and destruction, but using that of others as cover for a better life than they have - is very frustrating. It gets more blurred again when refugees who have made it to a point of safety then use that as a springboard to travel on further, to escape to a permanent better life in a country with which they have no ties, no right to residence and often resort to criminal means to gain entry.
That the hand-wringers would help all is ultimately going to be to the detriment of those who need help the most, the true refugees.
Aren't the entire White and Hispanic population of the USA descendants of economic migrants ? It is OK for us to go to foreign lands. Look at the treacherous Aussie's. Who do they think they are ? People were already living there.
I'm sorry, but you can't be called a refugee if you put your wife and children's life on the line fleeing from bad dentistry.
You call having all your teeth pulled out by ISIS "bad dentistry"?
You'd do well to drop such ludicrous language if you don't want to put off anyone with common decency not just the "right on" crowd.
You clearly didn't catch up with the reason the guy left Bodrum on little more than a lilo to cross into the EU - he wanted to get his teeth fixed. That was his reason for leaving the flat they had in Istanbul. His sister in Canada told us this.
He was in no jeopardy from ISIS whatsoever.
You clearly didn't catch up with the reason the guy who left Bodrum wanted to get his teeth fixed. His teeth weren't "bad dentistry" they were pulled out by ISIS. If you consider torturing people by pulling all their teeth out "bad dentistry" then you're one sick animal.
I repeat: he was in no jeopardy in Istanbul. Where they have dentists.
Ah you're an expert on how many dentists they have providing treatment there? How many dentists have been made available for the 2.5 million refugees in Turkey?
There are large numbers who have had limbs hacked off in Africa by the Lord's Resistance Army. Should they have a right of residence in the EU?
Yes they sound like genuine refugees.
Since Turkey with a GDP of $822bn can comfortably cope with and provide healthcare to 2.5million refugees in your eyes then the UK with a GDP of $2678bn (3.25x more) can presumably cope with 3.25x2.5mn > 8 million refugees using your logic?
You seem to be happy to provide a home in the UK for anyone that life has dealt a shitty hand. If you'd travelled the globe as much as I have, you'd have some idea of just how many that would be.
My way of addressing it is to support a Govt. that meets its commitment to spending 0.7% of our GDP to alleviate that suffering in situ. And I have taken flak on here for doing so, from those who would cut it - or spend it on good causes in the UK.
That's my way of addressing it too. But I won't call someone who hopes for his family for a better life after being tortured by brutal psychopaths merely avoiding "bad dentistry". That's the difference.
Of course, smearing a man who has lost everything when you know nothing of his story except the snippets harvested from media reports is nothing but contemptible. In comfy, prosperous Northern Italian bars and English homes, the reality of being tortured by psycopaths, of seeing the town you lived in destroyed, your neighbours slaughtered, your entire life turned upside down and then the people you love most killed are - thankfully - things that you never have to worry about, let alone go through. How lucky we are to live such lives that allow us to pass judgement on those who have suffered such agonies.
Agreed.
I do have some difficulty though understanding why we are expected to help and accept thousands of Syrians yet......... we cannot help and accept a handful of our Iraqi translators and their families who need this as a result of our own direct actions?
I've yet to see an explanation for that one (and the Afghan translators), I'm actually really interested what the defence for not accepting them could possibly be - given their actions, and the numbers, I wouldn't actually care if they are not in danger at all back home.
Of course, smearing a man who has lost everything when you know nothing of his story except the snippets harvested from media reports is nothing but contemptible. In comfy, prosperous Northern Italian bars and English homes, the reality of being tortured by psycopaths, of seeing the town you lived in destroyed, your neighbours slaughtered, your entire life turned upside down and then the people you love most killed are - thankfully - things that you never have to worry about, let alone go through. How lucky we are to live such lives that allow us to pass judgement on those who have suffered such agonies.
Agreed.
Don't think anyone would really disagree with the statement as was written and SObs does make these points exceeding well as always.
We have to remember though this is not our fault as is commonly implied and we are doing more than most and than we are ever given credit for. I do have some difficulty though understanding why we are expected to help and accept thousands of Syrians yet......... we cannot help and accept a handful of our Iraqi translators and their families who need this as a result of our own direct actions?
Tbf, I don't think anyone believes the crisis is entirely our fault - simply that we've contributed to the destabilisation of the Middle East. I think that many believe we have a moral obligation to accept thousands of Syrian refugees. Some disagree with that take of the situation, but that is the main jist of the argument really. I don't see why we can't also help those in Iraq too though.
Ok - enough - you ignore every point I've made and still call me a fool. I repeat Britain has given more aid to help refugees in the region than the rest of Europe COMBINED. Accepting people who've paid people smugglers and who may not even be genuine refugees is a pretty dim strategy. I suggest you head to Munich with your 'Welcome' banner'.
Take the time to read what I wrote and you'd know I support the British policy not the German one. I just don't think someone who has been tortured and hopes for a better life is merely avoiding "bad dentistry" - that is a disgraceful way to spin this families tragedy. The issue is linguistics not policy.
The facts on the ground have certainly improved the arguments for Leave in the last couple of months. As the Euro members can't be trusted to respect previous agreements we need to make sure there is a robust system for non-Euro members to be protected. And unless we want hundreds of thousands of second hand refugees from Germany on top of the immigration we already have, we need changes to Free Movement.
As an absolute bare minimum, the EU needs to immediately introduce a Refugee Passport, which has no Schengen rights attaching and gives right of residence (and welfare) ONLY in the country issuing that Refugee Passport. No refugee should baulk at this requirement. And it would do much to defuse the fears of refugees deciding they like another EU country better. If Germany wants to issue 800,000 such passports, fine. If Denmark only wants to issue 800, fine. It becomes a national choice, not an EU-wide fait accompli.
The facts on the ground have certainly improved the arguments for Leave in the last couple of months. As the Euro members can't be trusted to respect previous agreements we need to make sure there is a robust system for non-Euro members to be protected. And unless we want hundreds of thousands of second hand refugees from Germany on top of the immigration we already have, we need changes to Free Movement.
As an absolute bare minimum, the EU needs to immediately introduce a Refugee Passport, which has no Schengen rights attaching and gives right of residence (and welfare) ONLY in the country issuing that Refugee Passport. No refugee should baulk at this requirement. And it would do much to defuse the fears of refugees deciding they like another EU country better. If Germany wants to issue 800,000 such passports, fine. If Denmark only wants to issue 800, fine. It becomes a national choice, not an EU-wide fait accompli.
Of course, smearing a man who has lost everything when you know nothing of his story except the snippets harvested from media reports is nothing but contemptible. In comfy, prosperous Northern Italian bars and English homes, the reality of being tortured by psycopaths, of seeing the town you lived in destroyed, your neighbours slaughtered, your entire life turned upside down and then the people you love most killed are - thankfully - things that you never have to worry about, let alone go through. How lucky we are to live such lives that allow us to pass judgement on those who have suffered such agonies.
Agreed.
Don't think anyone would really disagree with the statement as was written and SObs does make these points exceeding well as always.
We have to remember though this is not our fault as is commonly implied and we are doing more than most and than we are ever given credit for. I do have some difficulty though understanding why we are expected to help and accept thousands of Syrians yet......... we cannot help and accept a handful of our Iraqi translators and their families who need this as a result of our own direct actions?
Tbf, I don't think anyone believes the crisis is entirely our fault - simply that we've contributed to the destabilisation of the Middle East. I think that that many believe we have a moral obligation to accept thousands of Syrian refugees. Some disagree, but that is the main jist of the argument really. I don't see why we can't also help those in Iraq too though.
Indeed, and the way Orban is going Hungary is getting more eurosceptic too
Cooper on Sky News showing some reservations on strikes in Syria against ISIS as it would not be at the invitation of a democratic government unlike Iraq, instead would push negotiation with neighbours
Quite right ! The Allies have been bombing for a year or whatever. Will our 6 Tornadoes really make a difference ?
What has been the outcome of the Libya bombing ? Who is in charge over there ? Which Militia is our Militia ? Like, in Egypt, the murderer who is in charge is our Murderer, more so Israel's puppet actually.
France is now looking to bomb ISIL in Syria now alongside the US, which would leave us the only UN Security Council western permanent member not taking action there
This is a different case to Libya where we were trying to topple Gaddafi, that would be the equivalent of the 2012 vote and bombing Assad which was rejected.
So ISIL is bad and Al-Nusra [ Israel's friends ] is good. Even Al-Qaeda could become our allies as long as they fight ISIL. PKK is surely our friend now. It is bewildering, our foreign policy. Where is Yukel when you need him with his latest despatch from Tel-Aviv ?
This poll forms a basis for a 60:40 IN:OUT result. After Britain's miserliness and Germany / Merkel's lion-hearted gesture , I don't think there is a long queue to help Britain out. Hungary could be Britain's friend !
If Britain wants OUT, it deserves to be OUT and fetch for itself.
My view of Merkel has changed a thousand fold over the last week. Bayern Munich has given EUR 1.5m, Borussia Dortmund showing banners welcoming refugees. Brilliant !
Today's Germany is a different Germany.
I see that betfair has moved in quite a bit. Out is now 3.25, having been 4.8 a couple of weeks back. Still good value though I think.
The facts on the ground have certainly improved the arguments for Leave in the last couple of months. As the Euro members can't be trusted to respect previous agreements we need to make sure there is a robust system for non-Euro members to be protected. And unless we want hundreds of thousands of second hand refugees from Germany on top of the immigration we already have, we need changes to Free Movement.
As an absolute bare minimum, the EU needs to immediately introduce a Refugee Passport, which has no Schengen rights attaching and gives right of residence (and welfare) ONLY in the country issuing that Refugee Passport. No refugee should baulk at this requirement. And it would do much to defuse the fears of refugees deciding they like another EU country better. If Germany wants to issue 800,000 such passports, fine. If Denmark only wants to issue 800, fine. It becomes a national choice, not an EU-wide fait accompli.
That's the status quo. Temporary visas like refugee visas give no right to change countries. To enter the UK as a European you need European citizenship not just a European visa.
Within Schengen the issue is a lack of border controls at all, not visa requirements. If border controls are re-introduced there is no need for a new passport as the existing rules cover it.
This poll forms a basis for a 60:40 IN:OUT result. After Britain's miserliness and Germany / Merkel's lion-hearted gesture , I don't think there is a long queue to help Britain out. Hungary could be Britain's friend !
If Britain wants OUT, it deserves to be OUT and fetch for itself.
My view of Merkel has changed a thousand fold over the last week. Bayern Munich has given EUR 1.5m, Borussia Dortmund showing banners welcoming refugees. Brilliant !
Today's Germany is a different Germany.
Merkel has spent 0.35% of GDP on foreign aid, Cameron 0.72%
Yet Merkel is generous and Cameron a miser? Economically illiterate left as usual.
SO.. So now you are relying on polls..in Italy.really.How did the well structured polls work out for your beloved Labour Party at the last GE..Polls did come up in the conversation in the bar.. no one there had ever been approached by one..maybe they are all taken in the business districts of Milan and Turin .
Again, if you had any knowledge of Italian you could tell me how anti-EU parties perform in actual Italian elections.
Of course, smearing a man who has lost everything when you know nothing of his story except the snippets harvested from media reports is nothing but contemptible. In comfy, prosperous Northern Italian bars and English homes, the reality of being tortured by psycopaths, of seeing the town you lived in destroyed, your neighbours slaughtered, your entire life turned upside down and then the people you love most killed are - thankfully - things that you never have to worry about, let alone go through. How lucky we are to live such lives that allow us to pass judgement on those who have suffered such agonies.
Indeed - and blindly believing everything put out by the media that everyone who pays people smugglers must , by definition, be a genuine victim of horrendous persecution, who must instantly be brought to the UK and given asylum would be equally stupid.
It would be stupid, I agree. But attacking the father of these children and implying they died merely because he wanted some dental work done is not just stupid, it is disgusting.
I think rather that he was misguided to pay people smugglers to transport his family from a flat in Bodrum - a very safe part of Turkey which I know quite well. It was an act of recklessness. I think people smuggling is pretty much beyond the pale. Hence the stupidity of the EU/German response to the issue, which suggests that if you take such actions all good things will be given to you. You make many assumptions about people's motives made on limited knowledge yourself all the time - and are not slow to hand out judgements.
Yes, from here it looks misguided. And clearly it was. Thankfully, none of us on here will ever go through the things he and his family went through that led him to make the decision he did.
He was it seems from Kobane, which was flattened in the last year. Turkey's rather ambivalent approach to IS is coming home to roost. The kurds are rightly unimpressed, but not the only ones.
The Turks are about the only ones adjacent to Syria who could create a safe haven in Syria for refugees.
You want them to take more than 2m when many of them are possibly sympathisers of PKK ?
Of course, smearing a man who has lost everything when you know nothing of his story except the snippets harvested from media reports is nothing but contemptible. In comfy, prosperous Northern Italian bars and English homes, the reality of being tortured by psycopaths, of seeing the town you lived in destroyed, your neighbours slaughtered, your entire life turned upside down and then the people you love most killed are - thankfully - things that you never have to worry about, let alone go through. How lucky we are to live such lives that allow us to pass judgement on those who have suffered such agonies.
Agreed.
Don't think anyone would really disagree with the statement as was written and SObs does make these points exceeding well as always.
We have to remember though this is not our fault as is commonly implied and we are doing more than most and than we are ever given credit for. I do have some difficulty though understanding why we are expected to help and accept thousands of Syrians yet......... we cannot help and accept a handful of our Iraqi translators and their families who need this as a result of our own direct actions?
Tbf, I don't think anyone believes the crisis is entirely our fault - simply that we've contributed to the destabilisation of the Middle East. I think that that many believe we have a moral obligation to accept thousands of Syrian refugees. Some disagree, but that is the main jist of the argument really. I don't see why we can't also help those in Iraq too though.
Indeed, and the way Orban is going Hungary is getting more eurosceptic too
Yep - Jobbik did pretty well in the European parliament elections last year, coming second. Although it was only on a 29% turnout.
On topic. The long-term trend of the IndyRef was towards independence. Had the campaign continued, there may well have been further Yes polls.
With the EU ref, the bias to the status quo can be broken by enough problems (e.g. seeing the EU's reaction to the refugee crisis). Britain can quite easily stand aside from the EU if it wanted to, and if enough reasons are given to leave, then I think OUT will win.
@Philip_Thompson That's the status quo. Temporary visas like refugee visas give no right to change countries. To enter the UK as a European you need European citizenship not just a European visa
That's just inhumane bordering on fascist. What about their basic yuman rites to top-notch dentistry which apparently isn't available in fashionable holiday resorts?
I am a lot more sympathetic to the plight of Syrian refugees than highly-privileged wealthy educated economic migrants who often take opportunities away from less privileged locals and depress wages, in what is essentially a subtle form of social engineering.
BBC was reporting yesterday that the latest wave of migrants to enter Hungary was increasingly non-Syrian as other nationals looked to benefit from Merkel's announcement. One man was from Pakistan.
I was talking broadly. Immigration is a complicated issue.
I just don't like the seemingly commonly-held right-wing view that, essentially, there should be an open-door policy for wealthy privileged people with degrees seeking a better salary while there is zero-tolerance on poor unskilled workers seeking a better life.
This poll forms a basis for a 60:40 IN:OUT result. After Britain's miserliness and Germany / Merkel's lion-hearted gesture , I don't think there is a long queue to help Britain out. Hungary could be Britain's friend !
If Britain wants OUT, it deserves to be OUT and fetch for itself.
My view of Merkel has changed a thousand fold over the last week. Bayern Munich has given EUR 1.5m, Borussia Dortmund showing banners welcoming refugees. Brilliant !
Today's Germany is a different Germany.
Merkel has spent 0.35% of GDP on foreign aid, Cameron 0.72%
Yet Merkel is generous and Cameron a miser? Economically illiterate left as usual.
800,000 vs 216. The same as the last penalty shootout.
Britain is like Saudi Arabia. We will write the cheques but won't shake hands with them in case we catch some disease !
How much of the 0.72% is actually spent in Britain ?
I'm sorry, but you can't be called a refugee if you put your wife and children's life on the line fleeing from bad dentistry.
You call having all your teeth pulled out by ISIS "bad dentistry"?
You'd do well to drop such ludicrous language if you don't want to put off anyone with common decency not just the "right on" crowd.
You clearly didn't catch up with the reason the guy left Bodrum on little more than a lilo to cross into the EU - he wanted to get his teeth fixed. That was his reason for leaving the flat they had in Istanbul. His sister in Canada told us this.
He was in no jeopardy from ISIS whatsoever.
You clearly didn't catch up with the reason the guy who left Bodrum wanted to get his teeth fixed. His teeth weren't "bad dentistry" they were pulled out by ISIS. If you consider torturing people by pulling all their teeth out "bad dentistry" then you're one sick animal.
Does Bodrum have no dentists? I think your denigration of the Turks is border-line racism.
Turkey is a dental tourism hotspot.They have excellent, cheap dentists, cheaper even than Eastern Europe. A woman who works in my local Co-op went there and got all her teeth crowned for the piffling sum of £3000.
I've yet to see an explanation for that one (and the Afghan translators), I'm actually really interested what the defence for not accepting them could possibly be - given their actions, and the numbers, I wouldn't actually care if they are not in danger at all back home.
Its for the same reason that Mssrs. Charles, Indigo and EdmundinTokyo have all had problems with visas for family members, and for that matter, highly qualified scientists who would be of real benefit to the UK have such difficulty in getting here. The rules cannot be enforced against the people who break them so they are even more strictly applied against those who are prepared to play by them.
In short the civil servants whose job it is to apply the rules pick on the easy targets. The same phenomena can be seen with the police in England where crimes committed by "difficult" people are not investigated but far less serious offences committed by people who are unlikely to kick up are.
@Philip_Thompson That's the status quo. Temporary visas like refugee visas give no right to change countries. To enter the UK as a European you need European citizenship not just a European visa
That's just inhumane bordering on fascist. What about their basic yuman rites to top-notch dentistry which apparently isn't available in fashionable holiday resorts?
Who has suggested basing human rights on dentistry? Versus understanding someone who has been tortured is not just seeking dentistry?
Eh, not quite, ethnicity can be passed down in part through the genes, gender cannot
Total bolleaux:
My Cypriot-Turk father and Irish mother have feck all to do with my ethnicity (as I do not have one other than "white-English"). Yet another case of 'correlation equals causation' stupidity (and I expect better from our local Hereford Young Farmers)!
This poll forms a basis for a 60:40 IN:OUT result. After Britain's miserliness and Germany / Merkel's lion-hearted gesture , I don't think there is a long queue to help Britain out. Hungary could be Britain's friend !
If Britain wants OUT, it deserves to be OUT and fetch for itself.
My view of Merkel has changed a thousand fold over the last week. Bayern Munich has given EUR 1.5m, Borussia Dortmund showing banners welcoming refugees. Brilliant !
Today's Germany is a different Germany.
Merkel has spent 0.35% of GDP on foreign aid, Cameron 0.72%
Yet Merkel is generous and Cameron a miser? Economically illiterate left as usual.
Britain is like Saudi Arabia. We will write the cheques but won't shake hands with them in case we catch some disease !
How much of the 0.72% is actually spent in Britain ?
The latter part I wouldn't know, but even if the attitude in the form bit is true, that doesn't mean it doesn't do a lot of good, perhaps objectively more as a proportion of national spending (I do not have enough facts to be able to judge that, but it is certainly a possibility)
This poll forms a basis for a 60:40 IN:OUT result. After Britain's miserliness and Germany / Merkel's lion-hearted gesture , I don't think there is a long queue to help Britain out. Hungary could be Britain's friend !
If Britain wants OUT, it deserves to be OUT and fetch for itself.
My view of Merkel has changed a thousand fold over the last week. Bayern Munich has given EUR 1.5m, Borussia Dortmund showing banners welcoming refugees. Brilliant !
Today's Germany is a different Germany.
Merkel has spent 0.35% of GDP on foreign aid, Cameron 0.72%
Yet Merkel is generous and Cameron a miser? Economically illiterate left as usual.
800,000 vs 216. The same as the last penalty shootout.
Britain is like Saudi Arabia. We will write the cheques but won't shake hands with them in case we catch some disease !
How much of the 0.72% is actually spent in Britain ?
216 is bollocks, we've taken in thousands. 800,000 is also bollocks - that's a projection not what they've taken in.
0.35% vs 0.72% is reality. Keep talking bollocks, or join us in reality. Your choice.
That's my way of addressing it too. But I won't call someone who hopes for his family for a better life after being tortured by brutal psychopaths merely avoiding "bad dentistry". That's the difference.
As I've spelt out, he had escaped from ISIS. He had a flat in Istanbul. In this new life, there was no risk of "being tortured by brutal psychopaths" (are there any other sort of torturers, or was this guy just REALLY unlucky?). His subsequent actions in leaving for the EU changed his status from refugee to migrant. He had applied through the appropriate channels - and been refused. So he chose to go illegally, ahead of those who might have had a case, by paying people smugglers - for his own reasons that had nothing to do with his wife and children but ultimately led to their deaths.
He may have been through hell in his homeland, but when that ordeal was left behind, he made conscious decisions to go outside the law, nothing to do with a threat from ISIS, but to get his teeth fixed. I am supposed to then feel guilty for having no compassion for the consequences that befall such a person when his actions directly lead to the death of his family. Sorry, but it ain't happening.
The facts on the ground have certainly improved the arguments for Leave in the last couple of months. As the Euro members can't be trusted to respect previous agreements we need to make sure there is a robust system for non-Euro members to be protected. And unless we want hundreds of thousands of second hand refugees from Germany on top of the immigration we already have, we need changes to Free Movement.
As an absolute bare minimum, the EU needs to immediately introduce a Refugee Passport, which has no Schengen rights attaching and gives right of residence (and welfare) ONLY in the country issuing that Refugee Passport. No refugee should baulk at this requirement. And it would do much to defuse the fears of refugees deciding they like another EU country better. If Germany wants to issue 800,000 such passports, fine. If Denmark only wants to issue 800, fine. It becomes a national choice, not an EU-wide fait accompli.
That's the status quo. Temporary visas like refugee visas give no right to change countries. To enter the UK as a European you need European citizenship not just a European visa.
Within Schengen the issue is a lack of border controls at all, not visa requirements. If border controls are re-introduced there is no need for a new passport as the existing rules cover it.
An initial report some two days ago indicated the Austrians were doing just this but then relented somewhat. Merkel also inferred the possibility but then open the doors to all.
The policy is always mussed but the lack of political will to follow this up with action seems to lacking. Even Hungary was deploying troops to her borders but what do they do when they get there. Again no clear policy or where army is concerned rules of engagement. Could they even think too engage??
As for the 800,000 how many of them have Germany arranged SAFE TRANSPORT for? Sent over ships or planes and brought over?
Or are they saying they won't deport people who cross over in rafts which is incentivising this tragedy? If you want to be generous great I'll respect that - send over safe transport and bring them over yourself. Anything short of that is aiding and abetting this tragedy.
On topic. The long-term trend of the IndyRef was towards independence. Had the campaign continued, there may well have been further Yes polls.
With the EU ref, the bias to the status quo can be broken by enough problems (e.g. seeing the EU's reaction to the refugee crisis). Britain can quite easily stand aside from the EU if it wanted to, and if enough reasons are given to leave, then I think OUT will win.
I agree. I think Remain has a huge task on its hands. There are very few convinced and highly motivated pro-Europeans and they do not have a hugely positive tale to tell right now. Their best chance may be that the most vocal and visible opponents of Cameron's deal look likely to be Farage and Corbyn; neither of whom inspire much affection beyond their support bases. That said, between them they can probably count on ten million voters. Throw in Tory Eurocseptics and you are looking at a potential Out reservoir of around 15 million votes.
This poll forms a basis for a 60:40 IN:OUT result. After Britain's miserliness and Germany / Merkel's lion-hearted gesture , I don't think there is a long queue to help Britain out. Hungary could be Britain's friend !
If Britain wants OUT, it deserves to be OUT and fetch for itself.
My view of Merkel has changed a thousand fold over the last week. Bayern Munich has given EUR 1.5m, Borussia Dortmund showing banners welcoming refugees. Brilliant !
Today's Germany is a different Germany.
Merkel has spent 0.35% of GDP on foreign aid, Cameron 0.72%
Yet Merkel is generous and Cameron a miser? Economically illiterate left as usual.
800,000 vs 216. The same as the last penalty shootout.
Britain is like Saudi Arabia. We will write the cheques but won't shake hands with them in case we catch some disease !
How much of the 0.72% is actually spent in Britain ?
Your figures are wrong - Germany has said it will take 800,00 - let's see what actually happens. Britain has already taken way more than 216 - I believe around 5,000. You're being silly . Cameron's approach is way more sensible as we only accept genuine refugees via the UN camps. Yesterday's poll showed strong public support for this approach. I guess you're thinking another 800,000 immigrants might give Labour the majority it didn't get in May.
I'm sorry, but you can't be called a refugee if you put your wife and children's life on the line fleeing from bad dentistry.
You call having all your teeth pulled out by ISIS "bad dentistry"?
You'd do well to drop such ludicrous language if you don't want to put off anyone with common decency not just the "right on" crowd.
You clearly didn't catch up with the reason the guy left Bodrum on little more than a lilo to cross into the EU - he wanted to get his teeth fixed. That was his reason for leaving the flat they had in Istanbul. His sister in Canada told us this.
He was in no jeopardy from ISIS whatsoever.
You clearly didn't catch up with the reason the guy who left Bodrum wanted to get his teeth fixed. His teeth weren't "bad dentistry" they were pulled out by ISIS. If you consider torturing people by pulling all their teeth out "bad dentistry" then you're one sick animal.
Does Bodrum have no dentists? I think your denigration of the Turks is border-line racism.
Turkey is a dental tourism hotspot.They have excellent, cheap dentists, cheaper even than Eastern Europe. A woman who works in my local Co-op went there and got all her teeth crowned for the piffling sum of £3000.
I think the Kurdi family should be left alone with their grief.
Both by ourselves and by journalists.
There have been confusing and even contradictory statements made by the Kurdi family, but they are in the centre of horrific media frenzy and coping with overwhelming grief.
I hope they give no more statements to the media, and the media leave them to mourn in peace.
That's my way of addressing it too. But I won't call someone who hopes for his family for a better life after being tortured by brutal psychopaths merely avoiding "bad dentistry". That's the difference.
As I've spelt out, he had escaped from ISIS. He had a flat in Istanbul. In this new life, there was no risk of "being tortured by brutal psychopaths" (are there any other sort of torturers, or was this guy just REALLY unlucky?). His subsequent actions in leaving for the EU changed his status from refugee to migrant. He had applied through the appropriate channels - and been refused. So he chose to go illegally, ahead of those who might have had a case, by paying people smugglers - for his own reasons that had nothing to do with his wife and children but ultimately led to their deaths.
He may have been through hell in his homeland, but when that ordeal was left behind, he made conscious decisions to go outside the law, nothing to do with a threat from ISIS, but to get his teeth fixed. I am supposed to then feel guilty for having no compassion for the consequences that befall such a person when his actions directly lead to the death of his family. Sorry, but it ain't happening.
Clearly, you are not capable of believing that having been tortured, seen your home town raised to the ground, your neighbours slaughtered and your family's entire life turned upside down, the way you view the world and how you interact with it might change. If you cannot feel compassion for someone who has been through all that - and who has then lost his wife and young children as the result of a disastrously bad decision - that is your business, I guess. When you share that opinion from the comfort of your safe, unthreatened, comfortable English home, having never had to contemplate close to what that bloke went through let alone actually experience it, do not be surprised that some people find it repulsive.
On topic. The long-term trend of the IndyRef was towards independence. Had the campaign continued, there may well have been further Yes polls.
With the EU ref, the bias to the status quo can be broken by enough problems (e.g. seeing the EU's reaction to the refugee crisis). Britain can quite easily stand aside from the EU if it wanted to, and if enough reasons are given to leave, then I think OUT will win.
I agree. I think Remain has a huge task on its hands. There are very few convinced and highly motivated pro-Europeans and they do not have a hugely positive tale to tell right now. Their best chance may be that the most vocal and visible opponents of Cameron's deal look likely to be Farage and Corbyn; neither of whom inspire much affection beyond their support bases. That said, between them they can probably count on ten million voters. Throw in Tory Eurocseptics and you are looking at a potential Out reservoir of around 15 million votes.
Fifteen million seems a bit high, Mr. Observer. However, the number of confirmed BOOs is significant so let's on not quibble on figures. I should have thought the result will depend on Cameron's negotiation or, to be precise, whether he can sell the idea that the likely trivial and non-legally binding changes he manages to get are a significant change to the UK's relationship. How many people will trust him (and the BBC and the CBI and the rest of the stay in at any cost crowd)? Can Cameron, in fact, do a Wilson?
I'm sorry, but you can't be called a refugee if you put your wife and children's life on the line fleeing from bad dentistry.
You call having all your teeth pulled out by ISIS "bad dentistry"?
You'd do well to drop such ludicrous language if you don't want to put off anyone with common decency not just the "right on" crowd.
You clearly didn't catch up with the reason the guy left Bodrum on little more than a lilo to cross into the EU - he wanted to get his teeth fixed. That was his reason for leaving the flat they had in Istanbul. His sister in Canada told us this.
He was in no jeopardy from ISIS whatsoever.
You clearly didn't catch up with the reason the guy who left Bodrum wanted to get his teeth fixed. His teeth weren't "bad dentistry" they were pulled out by ISIS. If you consider torturing people by pulling all their teeth out "bad dentistry" then you're one sick animal.
What IS did to him was unconscionable. But he was in Turkey. There are dentists in Turkey. I dare say some of them are pretty good. It was not necessary for him to try and sail with all his family in an unsafe boat across the Mediterranean in order to see a dentist. Could his sister not have sent him the money so that he could pay for the best dental treatment Turkey had to offer?
Or perhaps there is more to this story than we have been told? It is possible to accept that this poor man suffered terribly under IS, that he has now suffered an even greater loss while still thinking that there is something not quite right about his expressed reasons for trying to get to Europe and something bloody foolish about what he did.
''Right or wrong immigration fatigue is setting in, according to the poll across the country with the exception of London, people have had enough.''
I think people are still very happy to welcome well qualified, hard working immigrants of whatever colour or creed.
Agreed but I would add with this key proviso: that those immigrants make every effort to integrate fully into the home nation and become British or Italian or German or whatever.
Of course, smearing a man who has lost everything when you know nothing of his story except the snippets harvested from media reports is nothing but contemptible. In comfy, prosperous Northern Italian bars and English homes, the reality of being tortured by psycopaths, of seeing the town you lived in destroyed, your neighbours slaughtered, your entire life turned upside down and then the people you love most killed are - thankfully - things that you never have to worry about, let alone go through. How lucky we are to live such lives that allow us to pass judgement on those who have suffered such agonies.
Agreed.
Don't think anyone would really disagree with the statement as was written and SObs does make these points exceeding well as always.
We have to remember though this is not our fault as is commonly implied and we are doing more than most and than we are ever given credit for. I do have some difficulty though understanding why we are expected to help and accept thousands of Syrians yet......... we cannot help and accept a handful of our Iraqi translators and their families who need this as a result of our own direct actions?
Tbf, I don't think anyone believes the crisis is entirely our fault - simply that we've contributed to the destabilisation of the Middle East. I think that that many believe we have a moral obligation to accept thousands of Syrian refugees. Some disagree, but that is the main jist of the argument really. I don't see why we can't also help those in Iraq too though.
Indeed, and the way Orban is going Hungary is getting more eurosceptic too
Yep - Jobbik did pretty well in the European parliament elections last year, coming second. Although it was only on a 29% turnout.
Indeed, symbolises the move to populist parties elsewhere too
Eh, not quite, ethnicity can be passed down in part through the genes, gender cannot
Total bolleaux:
My Cypriot-Turk father and Irish mother have feck all to do with my ethnicity (as I do not have one other than "white-English"). Yet another case of 'correlation equals causation' stupidity (and I expect better from our local Hereford Young Farmers)!
Your nationality may be British but of course part of your ethnicity is Cypriot-Turk and Irish, indeed part of my ethnicity and looks still come from Hugeonot migrant ancestors generations ago
This poll forms a basis for a 60:40 IN:OUT result. After Britain's miserliness and Germany / Merkel's lion-hearted gesture , I don't think there is a long queue to help Britain out. Hungary could be Britain's friend !
If Britain wants OUT, it deserves to be OUT and fetch for itself.
My view of Merkel has changed a thousand fold over the last week. Bayern Munich has given EUR 1.5m, Borussia Dortmund showing banners welcoming refugees. Brilliant !
Today's Germany is a different Germany.
Merkel has spent 0.35% of GDP on foreign aid, Cameron 0.72%
Yet Merkel is generous and Cameron a miser? Economically illiterate left as usual.
800,000 vs 216. The same as the last penalty shootout.
Britain is like Saudi Arabia. We will write the cheques but won't shake hands with them in case we catch some disease !
How much of the 0.72% is actually spent in Britain ?
Your figures are wrong - Germany has said it will take 800,00 - let's see what actually happens. Britain has already taken way more than 216 - I believe around 5,000. You're being silly . Cameron's approach is way more sensible as we only accept genuine refugees via the UN camps. Yesterday's poll showed strong public support for this approach. I guess you're thinking another 800,000 immigrants might give Labour the majority it didn't get in May.
800,000 ? I have no limits. Like there was no limit when Europeans felt they could go and settle anywhere they liked, e.g. America, South Africa, Australia. If anything, people all over the world were much poorer then than now. So affordability does not come into this.
Labour ? I am ashamed to say they have been so timid. What was the SPD response in Germany until Merkel's bold statement. Yes, she has shaken up the status quo. Where is the AfD now ? People standing in Munich railway station [in Bavaria , this ! ] and offering sweets, clothes, food etc. My faith in humanity has been uplifted.
If I was a German and lived in Germany, I could even vote for Merkel [ on the list system ]
Cooper on Sky News showing some reservations on strikes in Syria against ISIS as it would not be at the invitation of a democratic government unlike Iraq, instead would push negotiation with neighbours
Quite right ! The Allies have been bombing for a year or whatever. Will our 6 Tornadoes really make a difference ?
What has been the outcome of the Libya bombing ? Who is in charge over there ? Which Militia is our Militia ? Like, in Egypt, the murderer who is in charge is our Murderer, more so Israel's puppet actually.
France is now looking to bomb ISIL in Syria now alongside the US, which would leave us the only UN Security Council western permanent member not taking action there
This is a different case to Libya where we were trying to topple Gaddafi, that would be the equivalent of the 2012 vote and bombing Assad which was rejected.
So ISIL is bad and Al-Nusra [ Israel's friends ] is good. Even Al-Qaeda could become our allies as long as they fight ISIL. PKK is surely our friend now. It is bewildering, our foreign policy. Where is Yukel when you need him with his latest despatch from Tel-Aviv ?
Al-Nusra is certainly not great but better than an ISIL alternative
I was someone who was going to vote yes 100% but that has changed in the last few months. I am getting rather fed up of the Franco German stich up and its about time they listened to us rather than we listen to them.
I'll still probably vote yes because some of the BOO'ers are nigh on racist and that's not a good thing to be basing our membership on..
I'd urge you not to reject BOO simply because (as it has to be) it's a broad church.
I'm right of centre, and I've had to hold my nose and vote conservative despite it being home to a fair few homophobes/transphobes. The Innies have racists, homophobes and anti-semites too; you must know that!
If we voted out... the racists would start of on their next mantra.. repatriation. Its there for all to see if only their eyes were open. That's why I am most likely to vote yes..
So basically if I should consider all the relevant points of in and out and then decide to vote out I'm a RAYCIST. I will then apparently start demanding barbed wire windowed cattle trucks at mainline stations to repatriate undesirables that incidentally hold British passports to ensure a final solution is found to the " living space problem ?
Well...... It's a view I suppose?
I didn't say that, nor should you infer it. There are lots of racists in the BOO campaign, just look at UKIP, its full of them, mainly though not exclusively ex BNPers.
When you say ukip is full of racists what do you mean by that, I'm interested to hear what % of ukip voters you consider to be racist. Instead of making vague, lazy accusations please be specific, for instance is Carswell racist? Suzanne Evans? Am I ?
#MrBlackburn, you will never convince the likes of #SquareRoot that UKIPers are not racists, no matter what facts you show them. These lefties (and others) have been brainwashed, seemingly from birth. It's in the blood, so to speak. It's much better to leave them in the filthy swamp of ignorance of their own making.
I'm sorry, but you can't be called a refugee if you put your wife and children's life on the line fleeing from bad dentistry.
You call having all your teeth pulled out by ISIS "bad dentistry"?
You'd do well to drop such ludicrous language if you don't want to put off anyone with common decency not just the "right on" crowd.
You clearly didn't catch up with the reason the guy left Bodrum on little more than a lilo to cross into the EU - he wanted to get his teeth fixed. That was his reason for leaving the flat they had in Istanbul. His sister in Canada told us this.
He was in no jeopardy from ISIS whatsoever.
You clearly didn't catch up with the reason the guy who left Bodrum wanted to get his teeth fixed. His teeth weren't "bad dentistry" they were pulled out by ISIS. If you consider torturing people by pulling all their teeth out "bad dentistry" then you're one sick animal.
What IS did to him was unconscionable. But he was in Turkey. There are dentists in Turkey. I dare say some of them are pretty good. It was not necessary for him to try and sail with all his family in an unsafe boat across the Mediterranean in order to see a dentist. Could his sister not have sent him the money so that he could pay for the best dental treatment Turkey had to offer?
Or perhaps there is more to this story than we have been told? It is possible to accept that this poor man suffered terribly under IS, that he has now suffered an even greater loss while still thinking that there is something not quite right about his expressed reasons for trying to get to Europe and something bloody foolish about what he did.
He was very, very foolish. We know that. He knows that now. And he has lost everything as a result. So, what drives someone to make such a catastrophically bad decision? Is it really the desire to go to the dentist; or does being tortured, seeing your home town destroyed, your neighbours murdered and your family displaced skew your judgement and make you see the world in a way that those of us who have not suffered such a fate never would?
''Right or wrong immigration fatigue is setting in, according to the poll across the country with the exception of London, people have had enough.''
I think people are still very happy to welcome well qualified, hard working immigrants of whatever colour or creed.
I don't think people are bothered about colour or creed they're concerned about numbers. It's called realism.
I am not bothered by colour, but I certainly am by creed. I don't care how hard working a jihadi is; I do not want him here.
Experience of immigration is that Europeans integrate well, from the Polish Army vererans to the Maltese and Italians that came in the 1950's to the more recent arrivals. Even Bulgarian and Romanian migrants have higher employment rates than native Brits. It is on the whole the non-EU migrants that fail to assimilate and have higher unemployment rates. There are differences of course, with Indian Hindus and Sikhs having higher employment rates than Pakistani or Bangladeshi groups.
Immigration is not just about numbers, it is very much about culture.
Very well said. I don't want any jihadis here either. It's notable that quite a few of the jihadis we have let in in the past have not been at all hard-working but rather have disseminated their poison while on benefits. Adding insult to injury.
One other point: we have seen first generation immigrants integrate well and then found the 2nd or 3rd generation become more extreme because of their absorption of extremist currents from abroad. That should inform our attitude to who and how many we let in. Extremists need a sea to swim in. Better make that sea a small one.
You want them to take more than 2m when many of them are possibly sympathisers of PKK ?
That comment's rather silly. Firstly, it ignores the history of the Kurdish areas of Turkey and the somewhat porous nature of the border and that region.
Secondly, it utterly ignores that Turkey has been doing an awful lot of refugees regardless of ethnicity. The stresses that will stop them taking more has more to do with the cost: everyone expected the Syrian civil war to be over in a couple of years (which it may have been, except for Miliband's treacherous intervention).
I'm sorry, but you can't be called a refugee if you put your wife and children's life on the line fleeing from bad dentistry.
You call having all your teeth pulled out by ISIS "bad dentistry"?
You'd do well to drop such ludicrous language if you don't want to put off anyone with common decency not just the "right on" crowd.
You clearly didn't catch up with the reason the guy left Bodrum on little more than a lilo to cross into the EU - he wanted to get his teeth fixed. That was his reason for leaving the flat they had in Istanbul. His sister in Canada told us this.
He was in no jeopardy from ISIS whatsoever.
You clearly didn't catch up with the reason the guy who left Bodrum wanted to get his teeth fixed. His teeth weren't "bad dentistry" they were pulled out by ISIS. If you consider torturing people by pulling all their teeth out "bad dentistry" then you're one sick animal.
What IS did to him was unconscionable. But he was in Turkey. There are dentists in Turkey. I dare say some of them are pretty good. It was not necessary for him to try and sail with all his family in an unsafe boat across the Mediterranean in order to see a dentist. Could his sister not have sent him the money so that he could pay for the best dental treatment Turkey had to offer?
Or perhaps there is more to this story than we have been told? It is possible to accept that this poor man suffered terribly under IS, that he has now suffered an even greater loss while still thinking that there is something not quite right about his expressed reasons for trying to get to Europe and something bloody foolish about what he did.
Cyclefree, you are pathetic ! What next ? Water-boarding is just throwing some water on someone ?
I think the Kurdi family should be left alone with their grief.
Totally agree: Whatever the cause the pain must be awful for the remaining family. A-political-football this story should not be!
I am coming further into Junior's realm: All benefits must be earned after five years effort. This would include denying UK-born subjects from claiming bennies between the age of 16 and twenty-one.
A bit harsh maybe? No: Choices should be made: Further/Higher education (with loan-funding); an apprenticeship leading to employment, or; get a job off-your-own-back!
What this would achieve is a minimum requirement: UK subjects would receive the same level of security as 'Johnnie-Foriegner' so no discrimination. There are benefits with this approach; mostly the young children of economic migrants are guaranteed a fair-start within the UK system whilst their parents have to accept that it is their own responsibility to integrate into their - new host - nation.
Critically this would imply increased costs via NHS-England and the education-system. These costs should be mitigated by lower benefit costs and higher NI contributions: Ultimately it should be possible to model a self-funding solution.
I am a firm believer in 'open-borders': Come to England to work and improve the prospects for you and your family. That said; please do not pi55 us off. We have a legacy of aptitude when it comes to self-defence...!
Cooper on Sky News showing some reservations on strikes in Syria against ISIS as it would not be at the invitation of a democratic government unlike Iraq, instead would push negotiation with neighbours
Quite right ! The Allies have been bombing for a year or whatever. Will our 6 Tornadoes really make a difference ?
What has been the outcome of the Libya bombing ? Who is in charge over there ? Which Militia is our Militia ? Like, in Egypt, the murderer who is in charge is our Murderer, more so Israel's puppet actually.
France is now looking to bomb ISIL in Syria now alongside the US, which would leave us the only UN Security Council western permanent member not taking action there
This is a different case to Libya where we were trying to topple Gaddafi, that would be the equivalent of the 2012 vote and bombing Assad which was rejected.
So ISIL is bad and Al-Nusra [ Israel's friends ] is good. Even Al-Qaeda could become our allies as long as they fight ISIL. PKK is surely our friend now. It is bewildering, our foreign policy. Where is Yukel when you need him with his latest despatch from Tel-Aviv ?
Al-Nusra is certainly not great but better than an ISIL alternative
So, we should now rank terrorists ? Our ones are good, their's bad. Al-Nusra is now OK as they are Israel's friends. PKK since they are Kurds, they are OK.
Cooper on Sky News showing some reservations on strikes in Syria against ISIS as it would not be at the invitation of a democratic government unlike Iraq, instead would push negotiation with neighbours
Quite right ! The Allies have been bombing for a year or whatever. Will our 6 Tornadoes really make a difference ?
What has been the outcome of the Libya bombing ? Who is in charge over there ? Which Militia is our Militia ? Like, in Egypt, the murderer who is in charge is our Murderer, more so Israel's puppet actually.
France is now looking to bomb ISIL in Syria now alongside the US, which would leave us the only UN Security Council western permanent member not taking action there
This is a different case to Libya where we were trying to topple Gaddafi, that would be the equivalent of the 2012 vote and bombing Assad which was rejected.
So ISIL is bad and Al-Nusra [ Israel's friends ] is good. Even Al-Qaeda could become our allies as long as they fight ISIL. PKK is surely our friend now. It is bewildering, our foreign policy. Where is Yukel when you need him with his latest despatch from Tel-Aviv ?
Al-Nusra is certainly not great but better than an ISIL alternative
The whole thing's turning into the enemy-of-my-enemy-is-my-friend writ large. Except the shifting allegiances of armed individuals and groups - even on a geographical basis - makes it an incredibly three-dimensional game.
Perhaps they are all enemies, and our only friends are the innocent civilians.
A rapprochement between Kendall and Corbyn? 'One of her campaign team murmurs that Ms Kendall, who appeared on the Sky debate on Thursday with a hair-do reminiscent of a 1960s backing singer, 'is trying hard to look benign and not so fierce when next to Corbyn'. At one point, the two looked almost flirtatious as they argued. 'Jeremy does like women and respects Liz as a person of principle, more than Yvette Cooper who just annoys him,' adds an ally.' http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-3223687/ANNE-McELVOY-Let-s-cuddle-Corbyn-says-Chuka-kill-off.html#ixzz3kxCar5CX Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook
You want them to take more than 2m when many of them are possibly sympathisers of PKK ?
That comment's rather silly. Firstly, it ignores the history of the Kurdish areas of Turkey and the somewhat porous nature of the border and that region.
Secondly, it utterly ignores that Turkey has been doing an awful lot of refugees regardless of ethnicity. The stresses that will stop them taking more has more to do with the cost: everyone expected the Syrian civil war to be over in a couple of years (which it may have been, except for Miliband's treacherous intervention).
You are targeting the wrong person. I am not ignoring what the Turks have done, harbouring more than 2m. It is others who are saying they should do even more when we are taking on 216 !
A rapprochement between Kendall and Corbyn? 'One of her campaign team murmurs that Ms Kendall, who appeared on the Sky debate on Thursday with a hair-do reminiscent of a 1960s backing singer, 'is trying hard to look benign and not so fierce when next to Corbyn'. At one point, the two looked almost flirtatious as they argued. 'Jeremy does like women and respects Liz as a person of principle, more than Yvette Cooper who just annoys him,' adds an ally.' http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-3223687/ANNE-McELVOY-Let-s-cuddle-Corbyn-says-Chuka-kill-off.html#ixzz3kxCar5CX Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook
That does not sound like the language a Corbynista would use. I sense a made up quote, or one from someone who is not a Corbyn ally.
Cooper on Sky News showing some reservations on strikes in Syria against ISIS as it would not be at the invitation of a democratic government unlike Iraq, instead would push negotiation with neighbours
Quite right ! The Allies have been bombing for a year or whatever. Will our 6 Tornadoes really make a difference ?
What has been the outcome of the Libya bombing ? Who is in charge over there ? Which Militia is our Militia ? Like, in Egypt, the murderer who is in charge is our Murderer, more so Israel's puppet actually.
France is now looking to bomb ISIL in Syria now alongside the US, which would leave us the only UN Security Council western permanent member not taking action there
This is a different case to Libya where we were trying to topple Gaddafi, that would be the equivalent of the 2012 vote and bombing Assad which was rejected.
So ISIL is bad and Al-Nusra [ Israel's friends ] is good. Even Al-Qaeda could become our allies as long as they fight ISIL. PKK is surely our friend now. It is bewildering, our foreign policy. Where is Yukel when you need him with his latest despatch from Tel-Aviv ?
Al-Nusra is certainly not great but better than an ISIL alternative
So, we should now rank terrorists ? Our ones are good, their's bad. Al-Nusra is now OK as they are Israel's friends. PKK since they are Kurds, they are OK.
Foreign Policy has always been about realpolitik, of course it would be better to have none of them but realistically ISIS is more of a threat than the others
You want them to take more than 2m when many of them are possibly sympathisers of PKK ?
That comment's rather silly. Firstly, it ignores the history of the Kurdish areas of Turkey and the somewhat porous nature of the border and that region.
Secondly, it utterly ignores that Turkey has been doing an awful lot of refugees regardless of ethnicity. The stresses that will stop them taking more has more to do with the cost: everyone expected the Syrian civil war to be over in a couple of years (which it may have been, except for Miliband's treacherous intervention).
You are targeting the wrong person. I am not ignoring what the Turks have done, harbouring more than 2m. It is others who are saying they should do even more when we are taking on 216 !
We are not taking on 'just 216', and we have done a heck of a lot more financially to help in the camps.
if you cannot even get those basic facts straight, perhaps you should retreat from the conversation until you have done a little reading ...
Cooper on Sky News showing some reservations on strikes in Syria against ISIS as it would not be at the invitation of a democratic government unlike Iraq, instead would push negotiation with neighbours
Quite right ! The Allies have been bombing for a year or whatever. Will our 6 Tornadoes really make a difference ?
What has been the outcome of the Libya bombing ? Who is in charge over there ? Which Militia is our Militia ? Like, in Egypt, the murderer who is in charge is our Murderer, more so Israel's puppet actually.
France is now looking to bomb ISIL in Syria now alongside the US, which would leave us the only UN Security Council western permanent member not taking action there
This is a different case to Libya where we were trying to topple Gaddafi, that would be the equivalent of the 2012 vote and bombing Assad which was rejected.
So ISIL is bad and Al-Nusra [ Israel's friends ] is good. Even Al-Qaeda could become our allies as long as they fight ISIL. PKK is surely our friend now. It is bewildering, our foreign policy. Where is Yukel when you need him with his latest despatch from Tel-Aviv ?
Al-Nusra is certainly not great but better than an ISIL alternative
The whole thing's turning into the enemy-of-my-enemy-is-my-friend writ large. Except the shifting allegiances of armed individuals and groups - even on a geographical basis - makes it an incredibly three-dimensional game.
Perhaps they are all enemies, and our only friends are the innocent civilians.
Yes, but those innocent civilians will not be helped by ignoring ISIS
That's my way of addressing it too. But I won't call someone who hopes for his family for a better life after being tortured by brutal psychopaths merely avoiding "bad dentistry". That's the difference.
As I've spelt out, he had escaped from ISIS. He had a flat in Istanbul. In this new life, there was no risk of "being tortured by brutal psychopaths" (are there any other sort of torturers, or was this guy just REALLY unlucky?). His subsequent actions in leaving for the EU changed his status from refugee to migrant. He had applied through the appropriate channels - and been refused. So he chose to go illegally, ahead of those who might have had a case, by paying people smugglers - for his own reasons that had nothing to do with his wife and children but ultimately led to their deaths.
He may have been through hell in his homeland, but when that ordeal was left behind, he made conscious decisions to go outside the law, nothing to do with a threat from ISIS, but to get his teeth fixed. I am supposed to then feel guilty for having no compassion for the consequences that befall such a person when his actions directly lead to the death of his family. Sorry, but it ain't happening.
Clearly, you are not capable of believing that having been tortured, seen your home town raised to the ground, your neighbours slaughtered and your family's entire life turned upside down, the way you view the world and how you interact with it might change. If you cannot feel compassion for someone who has been through all that - and who has then lost his wife and young children as the result of a disastrously bad decision - that is your business, I guess. When you share that opinion from the comfort of your safe, unthreatened, comfortable English home, having never had to contemplate close to what that bloke went through let alone actually experience it, do not be surprised that some people find it repulsive.
I've seen at first hand greater hardship than this man has endured. And I've worked in active war zones. You?
A rapprochement between Kendall and Corbyn? 'One of her campaign team murmurs that Ms Kendall, who appeared on the Sky debate on Thursday with a hair-do reminiscent of a 1960s backing singer, 'is trying hard to look benign and not so fierce when next to Corbyn'. At one point, the two looked almost flirtatious as they argued. 'Jeremy does like women and respects Liz as a person of principle, more than Yvette Cooper who just annoys him,' adds an ally.' http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-3223687/ANNE-McELVOY-Let-s-cuddle-Corbyn-says-Chuka-kill-off.html#ixzz3kxCar5CX Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook
That does not sound like the language a Corbynista would use. I sense a made up quote, or one from someone who is not a Corbyn ally.
It is blatantly obvious though when watching the 4 debate Corbyn prefers Kendall to Cooper and Kendall gets on well with Corbyn on a personal level, even if totally opposed to him on policy
This poll forms a basis for a 60:40 IN:OUT result. After Britain's miserliness and Germany / Merkel's lion-hearted gesture , I don't think there is a long queue to help Britain out. Hungary could be Britain's friend !
If Britain wants OUT, it deserves to be OUT and fetch for itself.
My view of Merkel has changed a thousand fold over the last week. Bayern Munich has given EUR 1.5m, Borussia Dortmund showing banners welcoming refugees. Brilliant !
Today's Germany is a different Germany.
Merkel has spent 0.35% of GDP on foreign aid, Cameron 0.72%
Yet Merkel is generous and Cameron a miser? Economically illiterate left as usual.
800,000 vs 216. The same as the last penalty shootout.
Britain is like Saudi Arabia. We will write the cheques but won't shake hands with them in case we catch some disease !
How much of the 0.72% is actually spent in Britain ?
Your figures are wrong - Germany has said it will take 800,00 - let's see what actually happens. Britain has already taken way more than 216 - I believe around 5,000. You're being silly . Cameron's approach is way more sensible as we only accept genuine refugees via the UN camps. Yesterday's poll showed strong public support for this approach. I guess you're thinking another 800,000 immigrants might give Labour the majority it didn't get in May.
800,000 ? I have no limits. Like there was no limit when Europeans felt they could go and settle anywhere they liked, e.g. America, South Africa, Australia. If anything, people all over the world were much poorer then than now. So affordability does not come into this.
Labour ? I am ashamed to say they have been so timid. What was the SPD response in Germany until Merkel's bold statement. Yes, she has shaken up the status quo. Where is the AfD now ? People standing in Munich railway station [in Bavaria , this ! ] and offering sweets, clothes, food etc. My faith in humanity has been uplifted.
If I was a German and lived in Germany, I could even vote for Merkel [ on the list system ]
This does sum up the left-liberal approach. Faith (in humanity) alone butters no parsnips.
On topic. The long-term trend of the IndyRef was towards independence. Had the campaign continued, there may well have been further Yes polls.
With the EU ref, the bias to the status quo can be broken by enough problems (e.g. seeing the EU's reaction to the refugee crisis). Britain can quite easily stand aside from the EU if it wanted to, and if enough reasons are given to leave, then I think OUT will win.
I agree. I think Remain has a huge task on its hands. There are very few convinced and highly motivated pro-Europeans and they do not have a hugely positive tale to tell right now. Their best chance may be that the most vocal and visible opponents of Cameron's deal look likely to be Farage and Corbyn; neither of whom inspire much affection beyond their support bases. That said, between them they can probably count on ten million voters. Throw in Tory Eurocseptics and you are looking at a potential Out reservoir of around 15 million votes.
Fifteen million seems a bit high, Mr. Observer. However, the number of confirmed BOOs is significant so let's on not quibble on figures. I should have thought the result will depend on Cameron's negotiation or, to be precise, whether he can sell the idea that the likely trivial and non-legally binding changes he manages to get are a significant change to the UK's relationship. How many people will trust him (and the BBC and the CBI and the rest of the stay in at any cost crowd)? Can Cameron, in fact, do a Wilson?
I reckon up to fifteen million is the reservoir, though that does not mean that many will vote in that way - they probably won't.
But what is the other side's reservoir? The LDs are enthusiasts, some in Labour are, a tiny number of Tories. The SNP will be for In, but only because it makes an Indy vote more likely and many of their supporters will not follow the party line on this as they will get the best of both worlds with an Out vote. Plaid and the SDLP will be for In. Sinn Feinn advocate Out in the Republic. In short, the enthusiastic Outers greatly outnumber the enthusiastic Inners. And then there are the millions in the middle that really don't know or care that much. How the hell does In get them to turn out in force to save the day?
Cooper on Sky News showing some reservations on strikes in Syria against ISIS as it would not be at the invitation of a democratic government unlike Iraq, instead would push negotiation with neighbours
Quite right ! The Allies have been bombing for a year or whatever. Will our 6 Tornadoes really make a difference ?
What has been the outcome of the Libya bombing ? Who is in charge over there ? Which Militia is our Militia ? Like, in Egypt, the murderer who is in charge is our Murderer, more so Israel's puppet actually.
France is now looking to bomb ISIL in Syria now alongside the US, which would leave us the only UN Security Council western permanent member not taking action there
This is a different case to Libya where we were trying to topple Gaddafi, that would be the equivalent of the 2012 vote and bombing Assad which was rejected.
So ISIL is bad and Al-Nusra [ Israel's friends ] is good. Even Al-Qaeda could become our allies as long as they fight ISIL. PKK is surely our friend now. It is bewildering, our foreign policy. Where is Yukel when you need him with his latest despatch from Tel-Aviv ?
Al-Nusra is certainly not great but better than an ISIL alternative
The whole thing's turning into the enemy-of-my-enemy-is-my-friend writ large. Except the shifting allegiances of armed individuals and groups - even on a geographical basis - makes it an incredibly three-dimensional game.
Perhaps they are all enemies, and our only friends are the innocent civilians.
Yes, but those innocent civilians will not be helped by ignoring ISIS
Who said we ignore IS? We attack them: we attack their funding, we attack their troops, and we attack their ideology. None of these are easy, but are necessary.
But allying ourselves with any side in the hodgepodge mess that has been created over the last couple of years could do more harm than good, and sadly that includes the Kurds.
We also need an international vision of what the region might look like after this is all done and dusted: it's conceivable that Iraq and Syria's borders will not be as they are today. We should be talking urgently to neighbouring countries - especially Turkey - about this.
On Radio 4, there's some person talking about the migration crisis and blithely assuming that all the people coming here want to be like us and come here for our values. This may be true. But it does not seem to occur to him that this may not be true for all, that some may well want the economically better life but either do not want or do not appreciate that this better life comes from our different values. Nor does it occur to him that some of these people may just want to come here to continue their lives as Syrians in Sweden or wherever rather than turn into Swedes. Nor that if you get a very large number of people turning up with a very different culture, the chances of them absorbing the host country's culture, the pressures to do so are lower.
It's this naivety which, it seems to me, is behind much of the muddled thinking on the whole migration issue.
I'm afraid that I share AnneJGP's comment from the previous thread: "However uncharitable it may be, it seems Europe is getting to the point where pulling up the drawbridge is the only option if we want democracy to live on." It's not just democracy but Western civilization which may be at risk if we invite in very large numbers of people from very different civilizations without taking very clear and firm steps to turn them into Westerners.
Cyclefree, I am reading Christopher Caldwell's 'Reflections on the Revolution in Europe', a book I think you said youve read. He says early on, using the example of Turks in Germany, that once significant numbers have emigrated from one country to another, the onus to integrate is no longer on those that follow, and therefore "little istanbuls' are bound to pop up. It is impossible for this not to happen.
Hello Isam.
Yes - agreed. The greater the number, the less pressure - the less need there is - to integrate and the easier it is to live as if you are still back "home". That is why we must consider both culture and numbers. You can more easily digest a small number of people from a very different culture.
The US managed to integrate very large numbers. But it had two advantages: (a) those going there were explicitly leaving the Old World to become part of the New and accepted that they were going to become American; and (b) all the pressure from America was towards making them American.
Disastrously, in Europe, we have failed explicitly to demand that immigrants become European in reality rather than simply in name. The combination of multiculturalism and large numbers, combined with the spread of extremism within the Muslim world following the Iranian revolution (which was its most obvious and significant expression) has led to the problems we are now facing.
That's my way of addressing it too. But I won't call someone who hopes for his family for a better life after being tortured by brutal psychopaths merely avoiding "bad dentistry". That's the difference.
As I've spelt out, he had escaped from ISIS. He had a flat in Istanbul. In this new life, there was no risk of "being tortured by brutal psychopaths" (are there any other sort of torturers, or was this guy just REALLY unlucky?). His subsequent actions in leaving for the EU changed his status from refugee to migrant. He had applied through the appropriate channels - and been refused. So he chose to go illegally, ahead of those who might have had a case, by paying people smugglers - for his own reasons that had nothing to do with his wife and children but ultimately led to their deaths.
He may have been through hell in his homeland, but when that ordeal was left behind, he made conscious decisions to go outside the law, nothing to do with a threat from ISIS, but to get his teeth fixed. I am supposed to then feel guilty for having no compassion for the consequences that befall such a person when his actions directly lead to the death of his family. Sorry, but it ain't happening.
Clearly, you are not capable of believing that having been tortured, seen your home town raised to the ground, your neighbours slaughtered and your family's entire life turned upside down, the way you view the world and how you interact with it might change. If you cannot feel compassion for someone who has been through all that - and who has then lost his wife and young children as the result of a disastrously bad decision - that is your business, I guess. When you share that opinion from the comfort of your safe, unthreatened, comfortable English home, having never had to contemplate close to what that bloke went through let alone actually experience it, do not be surprised that some people find it repulsive.
I've seen at first hand greater hardship than this man has endured. And I've worked in active war zones. You?
I am not sure what is worse than losing everything you own and love. Perhaps you can enlighten me.
Cooper on Sky News showing some reservations on strikes in Syria against ISIS as it would not be at the invitation of a democratic government unlike Iraq, instead would push negotiation with neighbours
Quite right ! The Allies have been bombing for a year or whatever. Will our 6 Tornadoes really make a difference ?
What has been the outcome of the Libya bombing ? Who is in charge over there ? Which Militia is our Militia ? Like, in Egypt, the murderer who is in charge is our Murderer, more so Israel's puppet actually.
France is now looking to bomb ISIL in Syria now alongside the US, which would leave us the only UN Security Council western permanent member not taking action there
This is a different case to Libya where we were trying to topple Gaddafi, that would be the equivalent of the 2012 vote and bombing Assad which was rejected.
So ISIL is bad and Al-Nusra [ Israel's friends ] is good. Even Al-Qaeda could become our allies as long as they fight ISIL. PKK is surely our friend now. It is bewildering, our foreign policy. Where is Yukel when you need him with his latest despatch from Tel-Aviv ?
Al-Nusra is certainly not great but better than an ISIL alternative
The whole thing's turning into the enemy-of-my-enemy-is-my-friend writ large. Except the shifting allegiances of armed individuals and groups - even on a geographical basis - makes it an incredibly three-dimensional game.
Perhaps they are all enemies, and our only friends are the innocent civilians.
Yes, but those innocent civilians will not be helped by ignoring ISIS
Who said we ignore IS? We attack them: we attack their funding, we attack their troops, and we attack their ideology. None of these are easy, but are necessary.
But allying ourselves with any side in the hodgepodge mess that has been created over the last couple of years could do more harm than good, and sadly that includes the Kurds.
We also need an international vision of what the region might look like after this is all done and dusted: it's conceivable that Iraq and Syria's borders will not be as they are today. We should be talking urgently to neighbouring countries - especially Turkey - about this.
I agree on that, ultimately Turkey and the Gulf States will have to play the pivotal role in bringing a solution
I'm always slightly dubious about PM biographies. Whilst Seldon's latest tome on Cameron has some interesting snippets, it seems far too early to be anything other than a facsimile of the truth.
However, I found the following interesting:
In a face-to-face Downing Street showdown with the German chancellor, the Prime Minister said: ‘If there’s no deal, it’s not the end of the world; I’ll walk away from the EU.’
Before the GE, I asked whether there was a chance that Cameron might officially remain neutral in the vote, or even recommend people vote to leave. If he did, how would both his party and the country respond?
The quote she is claimed to have said "Britain is Europe's problem child". Lets just think about this for a moment, of all the nations in the EU, it is us that is the 'problem child'? Not the collapse of the greek economy, not eastern europe with its massive distribution of resources, or the French with its singular distaste of every doing anything that isnt always in its 100% self interest.
If Britain is Europe's problem child, it says more about her parenting skills than our behaviour. We are the child that follows all the rules, that does all the homework, that pays keep out of its part time job at mcdonalds. We are the child that, when left alone for the weekend, dont invite all our mates in and trash the place. We are the child that doesnt buy an iphone six on an expensive contract we knew we couldnt afford. We are the child that didnt take on the paperround and expect his parents to do his deliveries when he felt a bit under the weather.
Ok - enough - you ignore every point I've made and still call me a fool. I repeat Britain has given more aid to help refugees in the region than the rest of Europe COMBINED. Accepting people who've paid people smugglers and who may not even be genuine refugees is a pretty dim strategy. I suggest you head to Munich with your 'Welcome' banner'.
Take the time to read what I wrote and you'd know I support the British policy not the German one. I just don't think someone who has been tortured and hopes for a better life is merely avoiding "bad dentistry" - that is a disgraceful way to spin this families tragedy. The issue is linguistics not policy.
You're fixated on this phrase, but wasn't the "bad dentistry" he was escaping in Turkey?
Or perhaps there is more to this story than we have been told? It is possible to accept that this poor man suffered terribly under IS, that he has now suffered an even greater loss while still thinking that there is something not quite right about his expressed reasons for trying to get to Europe and something bloody foolish about what he did.
On topic. The long-term trend of the IndyRef was towards independence. Had the campaign continued, there may well have been further Yes polls.
With the EU ref, the bias to the status quo can be broken by enough problems (e.g. seeing the EU's reaction to the refugee crisis). Britain can quite easily stand aside from the EU if it wanted to, and if enough reasons are given to leave, then I think OUT will win'.
Agree,the current volatility of voters as seen in the Scottish referendum,GE & now Labour leadership election is much underestimated.
Voters are now realizing that if they want to see immigration controlled (their no 1 concern according to polls) then leaving the EU is the only way it can happen.
Whilst Farage may not be the best leader of the 'Out ' campaign, Merkel has stepped in and is doing a great job for them.
The 'IN' campaign is going to remind us of the 3 million jobs we will lose,the same 3 million jobs we were going to lose if we didn't join the Euro.
You clearly didn't catch up with the reason the guy who left Bodrum wanted to get his teeth fixed. His teeth weren't "bad dentistry" they were pulled out by ISIS. If you consider torturing people by pulling all their teeth out "bad dentistry" then you're one sick animal.
What IS did to him was unconscionable. But he was in Turkey. There are dentists in Turkey. I dare say some of them are pretty good. It was not necessary for him to try and sail with all his family in an unsafe boat across the Mediterranean in order to see a dentist. Could his sister not have sent him the money so that he could pay for the best dental treatment Turkey had to offer?
Or perhaps there is more to this story than we have been told? It is possible to accept that this poor man suffered terribly under IS, that he has now suffered an even greater loss while still thinking that there is something not quite right about his expressed reasons for trying to get to Europe and something bloody foolish about what he did.
He was very, very foolish. We know that. He knows that now. And he has lost everything as a result. So, what drives someone to make such a catastrophically bad decision? Is it really the desire to go to the dentist; or does being tortured, seeing your home town destroyed, your neighbours murdered and your family displaced skew your judgement and make you see the world in a way that those of us who have not suffered such a fate never would?
I have every compassion for the man. He is suffering greatly, all the more so because he will realise that his own decisions have contributed to his suffering. But the issue for other countries is to decide whether or not he fits into the refugee category and whether they are going to accept him and that decision is based on facts not on his own view of the world, no matter how much we may accept that he was not - as a result of his experiences - thinking straight.
And the facts are that both the UN and Canada did not think he qualified for refugee status; he was in Turkey; there are dentists in Turkey. He was not a refugee and was not - when he made his disastrous decision - fleeing persecution.
There are others who will be genuine refugees who are at real risk of genocide/persecution who are not being helped because of the focus on one family whose story is not quite as clear cut as everyone thought. That's why it is pretty silly to make policy on the back of photos - even heart-rending ones - rather than actual facts.
Ok - enough - you ignore every point I've made and still call me a fool. I repeat Britain has given more aid to help refugees in the region than the rest of Europe COMBINED. Accepting people who've paid people smugglers and who may not even be genuine refugees is a pretty dim strategy. I suggest you head to Munich with your 'Welcome' banner'.
Take the time to read what I wrote and you'd know I support the British policy not the German one. I just don't think someone who has been tortured and hopes for a better life is merely avoiding "bad dentistry" - that is a disgraceful way to spin this families tragedy. The issue is linguistics not policy.
You're fixated on this phrase, but wasn't the "bad dentistry" he was escaping in Turkey?
I really hate the way political discourse has gone. Rather than disagreeing it is burden upon opponents of a policy to frame the opponents as wrong, evil, vindictive or hypocritical.
What is wrong with just plain disagreement. Why the need for bile? It does no-one credit.
800,000 ? I have no limits. Like there was no limit when Europeans felt they could go and settle anywhere they liked, e.g. America, South Africa, Australia. If anything, people all over the world were much poorer then than now. So affordability does not come into this.
Labour ? I am ashamed to say they have been so timid. What was the SPD response in Germany until Merkel's bold statement. Yes, she has shaken up the status quo. Where is the AfD now ? People standing in Munich railway station [in Bavaria , this ! ] and offering sweets, clothes, food etc. My faith in humanity has been uplifted.
If I was a German and lived in Germany, I could even vote for Merkel [ on the list system ]
Why are they greeting them in Bavaria? Because that's where the Germans are meeting them as they're not offering safe transport to get to Germany. Instead they're saying make this dangerous journey and then we'll welcome you.
That's not generous, that is the worst of all worlds.
4 months ago we were reminded that opinion polls can be a load of crap! Just saying.
Yes but who is going to die in the ditch to save the UK from leaving the EU.
The SNP Blair Cameron and Clegg , with big business , banks. That will make a lot of people puke.
I agree - the EU is re-defining the word 'dysfunctional' these days. Out of touch and maybe out of time. If so then let the people decide. Democracy is still a good thing, thank heavens.
Referenda is not the usual way in the past for the UK. Usually used when the Government of the day can not make a decision as in 1975. However it always now seems to be used for Constitutional Change, such as devolution.
Blair might have won a referndum on joining the euro in 97 to 98. So not a good thing.
Representative democracy is preferable in my opinion in most instances. As MP`s can use their own judgement in the exercise of their powers, even if their views are not reflective of a majority of voters at that time. This certainy happened to stop Blair with the Euro.
Blair would definitely have won a three-line-whip vote to join the euro in 97 or 98. It was the perceived need for a referenda which prevented us from joining the euro ultimately, so a very good thing.
I disagree Brown and Ed Balls stopped Blair, he would never have got that through the at that time, without the support of the chancellor. Blairs only hope was a referndum.
Nah. Brown could have been bought off easily. Blair only needed to have made some 'commitment' about the leadership handover and Gordon would have stepped into line. Blair wanted to be the most popular guy in the world, but he knew that the inevitable No vote would shatter his aura of invincibility. He flunked it.
I'm sorry, but you can't be called a refugee if you put your wife and children's life on the line fleeing from bad dentistry.
You call having all your teeth pulled out by ISIS "bad dentistry"?
You'd do well to drop such ludicrous language if you don't want to put off anyone with common decency not just the "right on" crowd.
You clearly didn't catch up with the reason the guy left Bodrum on little more than a lilo to cross into the EU - he wanted to get his teeth fixed. That was his reason for leaving the flat they had in Istanbul. His sister in Canada told us this.
He was in no jeopardy from ISIS whatsoever.
You clearly didn't catch up with the reason the guy who left Bodrum wanted to get his teeth fixed. His teeth weren't "bad dentistry" they were pulled out by ISIS. If you consider torturing people by pulling all their teeth out "bad dentistry" then you're one sick animal.
What IS did to him was unconscionable. But he was in Turkey. There are dentists in Turkey. I dare say some of them are pretty good. It was not necessary for him to try and sail with all his family in an unsafe boat across the Mediterranean in order to see a dentist. Could his sister not have sent him the money so that he could pay for the best dental treatment Turkey had to offer?
Or perhaps there is more to this story than we have been told? It is possible to accept that this poor man suffered terribly under IS, that he has now suffered an even greater loss while still thinking that there is something not quite right about his expressed reasons for trying to get to Europe and something bloody foolish about what he did.
Cyclefree, you are pathetic ! What next ? Water-boarding is just throwing some water on someone ?
I'm sorry. I think that he has suffered greatly under IS and subsequently. I have every compassion for the poor man. What is pathetic about that?
You want them to take more than 2m when many of them are possibly sympathisers of PKK ?
That comment's rather silly. Firstly, it ignores the history of the Kurdish areas of Turkey and the somewhat porous nature of the border and that region.
Secondly, it utterly ignores that Turkey has been doing an awful lot of refugees regardless of ethnicity. The stresses that will stop them taking more has more to do with the cost: everyone expected the Syrian civil war to be over in a couple of years (which it may have been, except for Miliband's treacherous intervention).
You are targeting the wrong person. I am not ignoring what the Turks have done, harbouring more than 2m. It is others who are saying they should do even more when we are taking on 216 !
Continually repeating this statistic, which is known to be misleading, doesn't encourage people to take the rest of your posts seriously.
Ok - enough - you ignore every point I've made and still call me a fool. I repeat Britain has given more aid to help refugees in the region than the rest of Europe COMBINED. Accepting people who've paid people smugglers and who may not even be genuine refugees is a pretty dim strategy. I suggest you head to Munich with your 'Welcome' banner'.
Take the time to read what I wrote and you'd know I support the British policy not the German one. I just don't think someone who has been tortured and hopes for a better life is merely avoiding "bad dentistry" - that is a disgraceful way to spin this families tragedy. The issue is linguistics not policy.
You're fixated on this phrase, but wasn't the "bad dentistry" he was escaping in Turkey?
I'm fixated on the phrase because words matter. To make out like he was putting his family on a raft to deal with a filling is wrong.
The referendum showed that until the campaign starts the polls are only an indication. It appears to me that in Scotland both sides will be very much for staying in Europe for different reasons. SNP see Europe as an alternative to UK and the rest see staying in Europe as the key to keeping the UK together.
The referendum will be in essence Little Englanders trying to create their own Switzerland whatever the consequences.
Ok - enough - you ignore every point I've made and still call me a fool. I repeat Britain has given more aid to help refugees in the region than the rest of Europe COMBINED. Accepting people who've paid people smugglers and who may not even be genuine refugees is a pretty dim strategy. I suggest you head to Munich with your 'Welcome' banner'.
Take the time to read what I wrote and you'd know I support the British policy not the German one. I just don't think someone who has been tortured and hopes for a better life is merely avoiding "bad dentistry" - that is a disgraceful way to spin this families tragedy. The issue is linguistics not policy.
You're fixated on this phrase, but wasn't the "bad dentistry" he was escaping in Turkey?
I'm fixated on the phrase because words matter. To make out like he was putting his family on a raft to deal with a filling is wrong.
You want them to take more than 2m when many of them are possibly sympathisers of PKK ?
That comment's rather silly. Firstly, it ignores the history of the Kurdish areas of Turkey and the somewhat porous nature of the border and that region.
Secondly, it utterly ignores that Turkey has been doing an awful lot of refugees regardless of ethnicity. The stresses that will stop them taking more has more to do with the cost: everyone expected the Syrian civil war to be over in a couple of years (which it may have been, except for Miliband's treacherous intervention).
You are targeting the wrong person. I am not ignoring what the Turks have done, harbouring more than 2m. It is others who are saying they should do even more when we are taking on 216 !
To claim 216 when you think its true is just ignorance. To claim 216 when you know its not true is dishonesty.
Ok - enough - you ignore every point I've made and still call me a fool. I repeat Britain has given more aid to help refugees in the region than the rest of Europe COMBINED. Accepting people who've paid people smugglers and who may not even be genuine refugees is a pretty dim strategy. I suggest you head to Munich with your 'Welcome' banner'.
Take the time to read what I wrote and you'd know I support the British policy not the German one. I just don't think someone who has been tortured and hopes for a better life is merely avoiding "bad dentistry" - that is a disgraceful way to spin this families tragedy. The issue is linguistics not policy.
You're fixated on this phrase, but wasn't the "bad dentistry" he was escaping in Turkey?
I'm fixated on the phrase because words matter. To make out like he was putting his family on a raft to deal with a filling is wrong.
Since 8:30 this morning you've been claiming that the "bad dentistry" comment referred to Daesh not Turkey. Can you please accept that wasn't the case?
Comments
My mother was a female and I was her eldest boy: Using your logic I am also her third eldest daughter. And your point is caller...?
:play-misty-for-me:
The Remain side better hope Cameron's renegotiation isn't a wet fish, or they'll be snookered. The worst case scenario they can paint is reduced trade but people will prefer that to being swamped with third world migrants we don't have any control over.
This is a different case to Libya where we were trying to topple Gaddafi, that would be the equivalent of the 2012 vote and bombing Assad which was rejected.
There seems to be much lazy (or perhaps convenient) confusion at the moment between migrants and refugees. It is easy for us all to have sympathy for refugees, who have fled fighting and destruction and persecution. It is still my preferred route to help them in situ. Taken away from their region, they start losing identity and will show less inclination to return and rebuild their land when peace returns.
That their plight is made all the more difficult by economic migrants - those not fleeing war and persecution and destruction, but using that of others as cover for a better life than they have - is very frustrating. It gets more blurred again when refugees who have made it to a point of safety then use that as a springboard to travel on further, to escape to a permanent better life in a country with which they have no ties, no right to residence and often resort to criminal means to gain entry.
That the hand-wringers would help all is ultimately going to be to the detriment of those who need help the most, the true refugees.
We have to remember though this is not our fault as is commonly implied and we are doing more than most and than we are ever given credit for. I do have some difficulty though understanding why we are expected to help and accept thousands of Syrians yet......... we cannot help and accept a handful of our Iraqi translators and their families who need this as a result of our own direct actions?
If Britain wants OUT, it deserves to be OUT and fetch for itself.
My view of Merkel has changed a thousand fold over the last week. Bayern Munich has given EUR 1.5m, Borussia Dortmund showing banners welcoming refugees. Brilliant !
Today's Germany is a different Germany.
Where is Yukel when you need him with his latest despatch from Tel-Aviv ?
Within Schengen the issue is a lack of border controls at all, not visa requirements. If border controls are re-introduced there is no need for a new passport as the existing rules cover it.
Yet Merkel is generous and Cameron a miser? Economically illiterate left as usual.
On topic. The long-term trend of the IndyRef was towards independence. Had the campaign continued, there may well have been further Yes polls.
With the EU ref, the bias to the status quo can be broken by enough problems (e.g. seeing the EU's reaction to the refugee crisis). Britain can quite easily stand aside from the EU if it wanted to, and if enough reasons are given to leave, then I think OUT will win.
That's the status quo. Temporary visas like refugee visas give no right to change countries. To enter the UK as a European you need European citizenship not just a European visa
That's just inhumane bordering on fascist. What about their basic yuman rites to top-notch dentistry which apparently isn't available in fashionable holiday resorts?
I just don't like the seemingly commonly-held right-wing view that, essentially, there should be an open-door policy for wealthy privileged people with degrees seeking a better salary while there is zero-tolerance on poor unskilled workers seeking a better life.
Britain is like Saudi Arabia. We will write the cheques but won't shake hands with them in case we catch some disease !
How much of the 0.72% is actually spent in Britain ?
https://twitter.com/Lezzers4Jezzer?lang=en-gb
In short the civil servants whose job it is to apply the rules pick on the easy targets. The same phenomena can be seen with the police in England where crimes committed by "difficult" people are not investigated but far less serious offences committed by people who are unlikely to kick up are.
My Cypriot-Turk father and Irish mother have feck all to do with my ethnicity (as I do not have one other than "white-English"). Yet another case of 'correlation equals causation' stupidity (and I expect better from our local Hereford Young Farmers)!
0.35% vs 0.72% is reality. Keep talking bollocks, or join us in reality. Your choice.
Controversial. What does that make someone born in England with two non english parents?
He may have been through hell in his homeland, but when that ordeal was left behind, he made conscious decisions to go outside the law, nothing to do with a threat from ISIS, but to get his teeth fixed. I am supposed to then feel guilty for having no compassion for the consequences that befall such a person when his actions directly lead to the death of his family. Sorry, but it ain't happening.
The policy is always mussed but the lack of political will to follow this up with action seems to lacking. Even Hungary was deploying troops to her borders but what do they do when they get there. Again no clear policy or where army is concerned rules of engagement. Could they even think too engage??
Or are they saying they won't deport people who cross over in rafts which is incentivising this tragedy? If you want to be generous great I'll respect that - send over safe transport and bring them over yourself. Anything short of that is aiding and abetting this tragedy.
Both by ourselves and by journalists.
There have been confusing and even contradictory statements made by the Kurdi family, but they are in the centre of horrific media frenzy and coping with overwhelming grief.
I hope they give no more statements to the media, and the media leave them to mourn in peace.
Or perhaps there is more to this story than we have been told? It is possible to accept that this poor man suffered terribly under IS, that he has now suffered an even greater loss while still thinking that there is something not quite right about his expressed reasons for trying to get to Europe and something bloody foolish about what he did.
Labour ? I am ashamed to say they have been so timid. What was the SPD response in Germany until Merkel's bold statement. Yes, she has shaken up the status quo. Where is the AfD now ? People standing in Munich railway station [in Bavaria , this ! ] and offering sweets, clothes, food etc. My faith in humanity has been uplifted.
If I was a German and lived in Germany, I could even vote for Merkel [ on the list system ]
One other point: we have seen first generation immigrants integrate well and then found the 2nd or 3rd generation become more extreme because of their absorption of extremist currents from abroad. That should inform our attitude to who and how many we let in. Extremists need a sea to swim in. Better make that sea a small one.
Secondly, it utterly ignores that Turkey has been doing an awful lot of refugees regardless of ethnicity. The stresses that will stop them taking more has more to do with the cost: everyone expected the Syrian civil war to be over in a couple of years (which it may have been, except for Miliband's treacherous intervention).
I am coming further into Junior's realm: All benefits must be earned after five years effort. This would include denying UK-born subjects from claiming bennies between the age of 16 and twenty-one.
A bit harsh maybe? No: Choices should be made: Further/Higher education (with loan-funding); an apprenticeship leading to employment, or; get a job off-your-own-back!
What this would achieve is a minimum requirement: UK subjects would receive the same level of security as 'Johnnie-Foriegner' so no discrimination. There are benefits with this approach; mostly the young children of economic migrants are guaranteed a fair-start within the UK system whilst their parents have to accept that it is their own responsibility to integrate into their - new host - nation.
Critically this would imply increased costs via NHS-England and the education-system. These costs should be mitigated by lower benefit costs and higher NI contributions: Ultimately it should be possible to model a self-funding solution.
I am a firm believer in 'open-borders': Come to England to work and improve the prospects for you and your family. That said; please do not pi55 us off. We have a legacy of aptitude when it comes to self-defence...!
Perhaps they are all enemies, and our only friends are the innocent civilians.
'One of her campaign team murmurs that Ms Kendall, who appeared on the Sky debate on Thursday with a hair-do reminiscent of a 1960s backing singer, 'is trying hard to look benign and not so fierce when next to Corbyn'.
At one point, the two looked almost flirtatious as they argued. 'Jeremy does like women and respects Liz as a person of principle, more than Yvette Cooper who just annoys him,' adds an ally.'
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-3223687/ANNE-McELVOY-Let-s-cuddle-Corbyn-says-Chuka-kill-off.html#ixzz3kxCar5CX
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if you cannot even get those basic facts straight, perhaps you should retreat from the conversation until you have done a little reading ...
Still, any chance to belittle the UK, eh?
But what is the other side's reservoir? The LDs are enthusiasts, some in Labour are, a tiny number of Tories. The SNP will be for In, but only because it makes an Indy vote more likely and many of their supporters will not follow the party line on this as they will get the best of both worlds with an Out vote. Plaid and the SDLP will be for In. Sinn Feinn advocate Out in the Republic. In short, the enthusiastic Outers greatly outnumber the enthusiastic Inners. And then there are the millions in the middle that really don't know or care that much. How the hell does In get them to turn out in force to save the day?
But allying ourselves with any side in the hodgepodge mess that has been created over the last couple of years could do more harm than good, and sadly that includes the Kurds.
We also need an international vision of what the region might look like after this is all done and dusted: it's conceivable that Iraq and Syria's borders will not be as they are today. We should be talking urgently to neighbouring countries - especially Turkey - about this.
Hello Isam.
Yes - agreed. The greater the number, the less pressure - the less need there is - to integrate and the easier it is to live as if you are still back "home". That is why we must consider both culture and numbers. You can more easily digest a small number of people from a very different culture.
The US managed to integrate very large numbers. But it had two advantages: (a) those going there were explicitly leaving the Old World to become part of the New and accepted that they were going to become American; and (b) all the pressure from America was towards making them American.
Disastrously, in Europe, we have failed explicitly to demand that immigrants become European in reality rather than simply in name. The combination of multiculturalism and large numbers, combined with the spread of extremism within the Muslim world following the Iranian revolution (which was its most obvious and significant expression) has led to the problems we are now facing.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3223773/Cameron-told-Merkel-Britain-walk-away-EU-Bombshell-new-biography-reveals-furious-German-leader-slammed-PM-hated-wrecker.html
The quote she is claimed to have said "Britain is Europe's problem child". Lets just think about this for a moment, of all the nations in the EU, it is us that is the 'problem child'? Not the collapse of the greek economy, not eastern europe with its massive distribution of resources, or the French with its singular distaste of every doing anything that isnt always in its 100% self interest.
If Britain is Europe's problem child, it says more about her parenting skills than our behaviour. We are the child that follows all the rules, that does all the homework, that pays keep out of its part time job at mcdonalds. We are the child that, when left alone for the weekend, dont invite all our mates in and trash the place. We are the child that doesnt buy an iphone six on an expensive contract we knew we couldnt afford. We are the child that didnt take on the paperround and expect his parents to do his deliveries when he felt a bit under the weather.
Yes, we are the problem child.
On topic. The long-term trend of the IndyRef was towards independence. Had the campaign continued, there may well have been further Yes polls.
With the EU ref, the bias to the status quo can be broken by enough problems (e.g. seeing the EU's reaction to the refugee crisis). Britain can quite easily stand aside from the EU if it wanted to, and if enough reasons are given to leave, then I think OUT will win'.
Agree,the current volatility of voters as seen in the Scottish referendum,GE & now Labour leadership election is much underestimated.
Voters are now realizing that if they want to see immigration controlled (their no 1 concern according to polls) then leaving the EU is the only way it can happen.
Whilst Farage may not be the best leader of the 'Out ' campaign, Merkel has stepped in and is doing a great job for them.
The 'IN' campaign is going to remind us of the 3 million jobs we will lose,the same 3 million jobs we were going to lose if we didn't join the Euro.
And the facts are that both the UN and Canada did not think he qualified for refugee status; he was in Turkey; there are dentists in Turkey. He was not a refugee and was not - when he made his disastrous decision - fleeing persecution.
There are others who will be genuine refugees who are at real risk of genocide/persecution who are not being helped because of the focus on one family whose story is not quite as clear cut as everyone thought. That's why it is pretty silly to make policy on the back of photos - even heart-rending ones - rather than actual facts.
What is wrong with just plain disagreement. Why the need for bile? It does no-one credit.
That's not generous, that is the worst of all worlds.
The referendum will be in essence Little Englanders trying to create their own Switzerland whatever the consequences.
To claim 216 when you know its not true is dishonesty.
Which are you?